Blog - Brian Funkhttps://brianfunk.com/blog/Tue, 20 Oct 2026 01:59:26 +0000en-USSite-Server v@build.version@ (http://www.squarespace.com)Bohemyth - Learning Rules to Break Them - Music Production Podcast #435podcastBrian FunkTue, 20 Oct 2026 01:59:25 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/bohemyth52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6ad6c7be5db74231f45dab9eBeau McLeod is a music producer and educator, who makes music as Bohemyth. Beau runs Low End Candy, where he designs plug-ins and Ableton Live tools. His newest plug-ins are Preverb for easily creating reversed reverb, and Slingshot for creating reversed delays.

Beau spoke about his journey learning how to make plug-ins and tools for producers. We discussed how he came up in the music production world by working with some of his favorite producers. Beau shared some of his insights on how to develop a unique sound and stand out from the crowd.

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Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.08)

What's up, Beau? Welcome aboard. Good to have you, man.

Low End Candy (00:03.63)

How's it going, Brian? Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (00:06.156)

Going good. I'm I'm happy to see you in person. I like I was telling you earlier, I've been following your stuff. a lot of cool tutorials and information you're sharing on YouTube and low end candy's got a lot of really nice tools, plugins, Ableton devices. yeah, you you're doing great stuff and it's fun to talk to somebody that's involved in all this. So yeah, so you kind of reached out about preverb.

Low End Candy (00:29.838)

Likewise.

Brian Funk (00:36.3)

Which is a really cool effect, reverse reverb type of thing. That reverse reverb is usually one of those things when you go to do it, it's like, all right, you gotta kinda set it all up, you gotta record it, you gotta bring it back, re return it, move it into place and you've really simplified that with this.

Low End Candy (00:36.398)

Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (00:48.13)

Mm. Mm.

Low End Candy (00:54.444)

Yeah.

Yeah, I like to think so. I mean, I've been doing it forever. I've been doing it since I started producing.

I've used a bunch of different techniques. I know a lot of different artists and producers who have used it. You can use it to like foreshadow a sound. You can use it to kind of like build a a riser almost. And as technology's kind of been advancing, and I've been getting my feet wet with like Ableton Macs for Live devices and and being able to create VSTs. That's one I had in my the back of my head that I've always wanted to make. I feel like a lot of producers have probably had like a plug-in somewhere in their mind, they're like, it'd be really cool if they had this. And now we have so much cool stuff where

It's like you can kind of realize that that vision and that's kind of what I did with Preverb is something that I know that I do all the time, simplified it, optimized it, and then made it accessible to everybody. So that's kind of the idea behind it.

Brian Funk (01:48.396)

Yeah, that's one of the ones, I guess, where it just cuts out a lot of heartache, a lot of stress of of the process where I mean, it's a really cool effect. You so if anyone's not sure what the reverse reverb effect is, it's it's sort of this like swelling that happens before the sound and you get it by recording the reverb of a sound.

And then reversing the reverb and putting it before the sound so it comes in backwards instead of after the sound. And it kind of creates a little anticipation, a little moment of excitement. But it it's kind of it's a lot of steps and it can be a little annoying. Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (02:25.218)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (02:29.612)

Yeah. Especially depending on what doll you're in. God forbid you're working in like Pro Tools or something. Like I wouldn't even know how you would do it in Pro Tools, but I'm sure it's sure it's hard.

Brian Funk (02:38.28)

Mm.

I guess like the bounce features that are in live now have helped a little bit with some of that stuff. I love those new bounce features. They're there's so much you can do so easy now and

Low End Candy (02:47.382)

For sure, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (02:54.552)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (02:56.769)

But yeah, it's a really nice interface, clean and a lot of fun to use.

Low End Candy (03:03.458)

Thanks. Have you been playing with it a bit?

Brian Funk (03:05.535)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you might start hearing like reverse reverb on a lot of tracks I do now. Yeah.

Low End Candy (03:11.766)

Yeah.

Yeah, I I I mean, just from basically how I've used it, I know there there's certain types of reverb that sound really good and ones that sound good in situations like vocals, like reverse reverb into vocals is like mandatory. Like I always do that because it tells the listener the vocal is coming, gives a nice kind of like lush sound into it. And then the cool part about preverb is you can actually also keep the reverse reverb playing throughout the clip. So there's a setting where you can have it basically end on the first transient or

Or you can keep it playing through and then it's got a really cool like reverse effect throughout the entire sample. So yeah, I've I've all kind of always done the little tail on my vocals, but having like the reverse reverb play through the the vocals is something super new I don't think I've ever seen or heard anyone do. So yeah.

Brian Funk (04:00.343)

Mm.

Yeah, I was thinking that would be fun to use with some kind of side chain to kinda duck it out of the way when the singing's happening and then just kinda swell in and out.

Low End Candy (04:09.134)

Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (04:12.95)

Yeah. It does have a ducking feature too, which is cool. So it doesn't like crowd up your vocal or whatever if it's playing over, you can get that ducking. Which is another thing with, you know, reverb if if it doesn't have a ducking feature you have to like side chain it in parallel and like so I kinda tried to take all those like

Brian Funk (04:16.015)

I didn't see that. Yeah.

Low End Candy (04:32.268)

labor intensive steps out because my philosophy with production has always been like get to where you're trying to go as quick as possible because it's like a race for your brain to stop being creative. And that's what I tell a lot of my students is like becoming better, more efficient in Ableton and in production in general is gonna make you a better producer because for me it's like I get an idea, I'm inspired, I sit down, and then if it's gonna take me three or four hours to get that idea down, I'm like fatigued, I'm over it, I'm kind of like in a space

Where I'm like not amped about it. So every step for of my production for me has been like, how can I optimize this and like get this done as quick as possible? So there's a lot of like Ableton Macs for Live devices, as I'm sure you know, like shortcut buddy, No Noir Labs I think it is is like a tremendous one where basically you can map any key to open a plugin. So for me I have like P for Pro Q or like E for EQ eight and just those little like steps here and there

really like optimize your flow and help you get to where you're trying to go faster. And so like a way it was put to me a long time ago is like I'm like a really big car guy and I really like the McLaren F one when it came out. And the way they made the McLaren F one is they took this car that was already like tremendous and they

They increased it and made it better in the smallest parts possible. Like they were literally shaving down washers to like add that like point zero zero one whatever it is ounce of weight reduction. So like optimizing your flow just like a teeny bit here, a teeny bit there, I feel like has helped me to become like a way better producer. So that's kind of like another part of the thought process of Free Verb.

Brian Funk (06:15.703)

Hm. Yeah, I I agree with you totally. I I framed it a little bit differently when I talk about it. little things like even just searching in the browser to find your EQ and then just clicking arrow enter will save you five, ten seconds. But if you th yeah.

Low End Candy (06:28.334)

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yeah.

Yeah. But in a session, you know, that adds up.

Brian Funk (06:41.513)

If you think about all of those plugins, all those devices you put in, if you're saving five or ten seconds every single time, you're over the course of a year, I mean, you might get a couple extra sessions back. But the way you put it too, like just the creativity, the inspiration, it it is so fleeting. I I think of inspiration like drinking water out of my hand. Like if you don't drink it, it seeps through your fingers and

Low End Candy (06:48.163)

Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (06:53.944)

Right? Yeah.

Low End Candy (07:04.558)

Yeah, exactly. yeah, a hundred percent.

Brian Funk (07:09.535)

It's like always getting away from you. So that's that's a really good point that it does help you stay in those moments.

Low End Candy (07:12.14)

Mm.

Low End Candy (07:18.178)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (07:19.639)

'Cause that's not the fun part of making music, it's like, cool, let's go on the browser and let's you know.

Low End Candy (07:23.638)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, which I mean you know, Ableton coming out with Max for Live, like really opened the door to like realizing your ideas and now we have so mu much tools that allow us to like like Ableton just came out with extensions which is great. I don't know if you've played with extensions at all.

Brian Funk (07:42.431)

A little bit, yeah.

Low End Candy (07:43.811)

Yeah, but stuff like that, like even Ableton seeing like, okay, like this is what people are wanting right here. They're wanting like quicker ways to do this or they're wanting which makes a lot of sense. Like there's a lot of debate with AI and and music production and my take is is if if it's helping you get to where you're going faster or realize your idea faster, like I'm all for it. So I I mean that's kind of been my take with with using AI and your own plugins and whatnot.

Brian Funk (08:12.382)

Hmm. Yeah, speaking of the extensions, your video is one of the first ones that I came across about them. like of somebody actually making them. And it it looked like you were do you were doing it you were coding like through AI, right? Like just asking it and I mean that's such a cool thing 'cause for me, 'cause like I'm not I don't even program Max for Live.

Low End Candy (08:26.424)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (08:33.196)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (08:42.586)

So, you know, coding is that's not where I'm at. And it's not where I wanna go spend my time and learn too. So yeah, the the possibility for having like extensions kind of brewed up for you if you can just think of the idea and then have it happen is it's that's very exciting. and it's kinda cool that they're doing it that way because it'll avoid feature bloat, I guess.

Low End Candy (08:49.238)

Exactly, yeah. Exactly.

Brian Funk (09:11.764)

You know, 'cause if they put in all of these ideas that people are coming up with, like it's like I'm gonna right click on a clip and it's gonna, you know, be this menu that like like a C V S receipt or something. It goes on forever.

Low End Candy (09:14.903)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (09:20.586)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. They're kind of just giving you the power, it's like

That's kind of always been the thing with me with Ableton because I started in in reason when I first started producing and then I eventually moved over. I knew I was going to Ableton just because like you can't really argue with the numbers of like some of the producers who are using it. but the flexibility to like really make it your own has always been like kind of my draw to Ableton of like you can take this and you can build chains and racks and groups and templates has always been like this is perfect because everybody's workflow is like

a little bit different and if you've ever used someone else's template thinking it would be better for you, you know what I'm talking about where you're like I do stuff so different and that's what makes me like unique as an artist. So that's like for me, for Ableton and and all the the extensions and whatnot is is so exciting about it.

Brian Funk (10:19.52)

You've been coding in Max for Live for a while now?

Low End Candy (10:22.794)

Actually no, I I kind of started to get my feet wet with Max4Live pffff probably about a year ago and my first idea for a Max4Live device was we have you know we have MIDI generation tools now since twelve I believe they came out, Ableton twelve. and we have ones that can generate

you know, chord progressions and ideas and whatnot. But then I started thinking like, what if there was a way to describe a chord progression and then have AI help you realize that chord progression? And there's a lot of debate around this topic, because people are they're gonna have the people that are the naysayers and they're gonna say, Well you're using AI to generate chord progressions. my take on it is

If you, you know, say you're a newer producer and you know what you want something to sound like, but you just don't know how to speak the theory, what if you could have music theory basically speak your language? And that was the idea for my first match for live device, which was Crux chords. And basically this was a box that in a MIDI generation tool that connected to open AI, and you could say, like, hey, I want a chord progression that's dark, that's trappy, that's gonna work well at 130 BPM, and I want you

Low End Candy (11:46.347)

And so that was the first one I put out. The I think the idea was there, but AI still to this day I don't believe is the best for like generating like MIDI ideas or chord progressions. So that one was kind of like some people really liked it, some people really hated it. but that was the first time where I kind of started to see how some of the tools we have today can help you create Macs for live devices, even if you're not a developer, because I am in no

Way, shape, or form, a developer or a like I don't know any of these like C or Python or anything like that. We just have tools today that can help you again, kind of like I was talking about with the chord progressions, help the code speak your language. So the code is now coming to you, and you have the accessibility to explain to something what you want the code to do, and then the code's gonna do that. So that's kind of where I

Started playing with Max for Live in in general. And then my next thought is like, well, why are we limited to Max for Live devices if we have all these amazing tools? And that's where, you know, I started to look into what's possible with creating your own VSTs and plugins. And it's it's not as nuanced as you might think. So

Yeah, I still play around with Max for Live. There's a lot of cool tools out there that can can help you build devices. But at this point, it's like right when extensions came out, I was super hyped on them and I still am. But where we're at today, it's almost like it's almost just as accessible to start creating

external VST than it is to go back there and program a Max for Live device or an extension. So that's kind of been like my path the last year of figuring out like, okay, well if I can do this, why can't I do this? And there's definitely some technicality to it, but I feel like

Low End Candy (13:49.113)

You know, if you're if if you're somewhat savvy, there's a way to get there and start creating your own own ideas. So

Brian Funk (13:58.848)

Hm. Well, a VST or w whatever format you make a plug in in can reach a lot more people too. You know, you're not just stuck with live. everything is now open.

Low End Candy (14:08.426)

Exactly, yeah. Yeah.

Low End Candy (14:14.208)

Exactly. Everything's open for those of you who are hard headed and don't want to come over to Ableton. You can still use the plugins. But I still will try to push you to Ableton if you're in a session with me.

Brian Funk (14:19.983)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean it's okay, but I don't know why you wouldn't wanna come over. I have a couple of friends that are still in other Daws and I'm like, I'll help you

Low End Candy (14:28.631)

Ha ha ha.

Low End Candy (14:36.044)

Yeah, it's it's like car manufac like if someone's a BMW guy and you're like or no, like the right comparison is if someone's like an Android person. Like everybody has that Android friend and it's like, dude, you're messing up our group chat, like nobody's getting good pictures, like it's just a mess. Like just come over to iPhone. It's so much better. We have this, this and this and they're just so that's that's kind of how I think of people in other DAOs. But teach their own. I know there's some incredible features in some other DOS, so

Brian Funk (14:49.042)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (15:03.593)

Yeah, and at the end of the day I think it's what you know, you know, what you know how to use and and the people I'm thinking of are actually making music and they're you know, in pro tools or whatever and they they got it down. They use it the way they use it and that's fine. So learning something new or getting s a new toy, new piece of gear, as much fun as it is to get it and it might open some doors, it does also kinda set you back a little.

Low End Candy (15:07.381)

Exactly, yeah.

Low End Candy (15:20.995)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (15:32.664)

Totally, yeah. Huge learning curve. Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Brian Funk (15:33.865)

You have to now figure it out.

Hm. What is just out of curiosity, like is there a certain software you use to make VSTs? I mean, like a platform or actually know nothing about that.

Low End Candy (15:51.393)

So I I've gotten pretty heavily involved in AI over the last year as well. first it ca it stemmed from automations and like I'm a big like in everything I'm do I do going back to like the McLaren comparison, like I want everything optimized. And so with some of the tools we have we can really automate a lot of stuff and then getting into AI and and discovering what AI can do with certain tool stacks,

Really like there's codecs, there's claude code, there's all these different like coding AI tools and I use a kind of nuanced like stack of different tools to do this. But what I tell people looking to like kind of get into that side of things is like you can really just ask AI and like it'll it'll kind of push you in the right direction of of how to do it. now there definitely is like some

At this point, and this might change in the future, there's definitely some points where you want developers to step step in and take a look at stuff. There's definitely places you need to be knowledgeable in, but it is getting more and more accessible to to everyone. And so

Yeah, I would say any of the AI coding languages is something to take a look at if you're looking to kind of get into that element, that aspect of of creating your own VSTs. And then there's the getting them and this is all stuff I've had to learn the hard way, getting them

basically signed off by Apple to where Apple's like, okay, this is a this isn't gonna crash someone's computer. So if an Apple user downloads this, you have that certification of, okay, this is this is good, this this person built it and sent it and we've signed off on it. So there's stuff like that and then there's just testing and testing because

Low End Candy (17:40.193)

Anybody who's used AI knows sometimes AI can give you just outlandish responses. Like AI has told me some crazy stuff that's not at all true. And so like there's that a aspect of like you can use it and it's an amazing tool, but at the end of the day, like you have to go in there and like check everything and make sure everything's correct and like the sounds right and this and that. So it is a process, but I would say it's a lot it's way more easily obtainable than like I remember ten years ago, five years ago, I would have no idea.

Where to start to create a VST. And now that is on the table. So if you're computer savvy, it is something you can you can get into.

Brian Funk (18:12.565)

Mm.

Brian Funk (18:18.761)

Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty cool. that it opens those doors 'cause that's to me helping you be creative, you know. I I think the AI that kinda turns me off is the stuff that's being creative instead of you, you know, that's taking away from like I don't want that to happen, you know. I take my job, not my creativity, you know. But

Low End Candy (18:27.202)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Low End Candy (18:36.578)

Mm, totally.

Low End Candy (18:42.38)

Yeah. Exactly, yeah. No.

Brian Funk (18:48.915)

Yeah. my house plants are definitely doing a lot better thanks to my consultations with AI. Just take pictures and it's like, you gotta you gotta fertilize that thing and

Low End Candy (18:55.502)

Nice.

Low End Candy (19:00.178)

S Yep. Yeah. Can be a huge help. yeah, I I sometimes I pop into like the I'm in a bunch of Facebook groups. I just like to keep up with what's going on and like the Suno groups are just like Man There's like Suno producers and and I agree, I I don't think that I think it's fun it's a fun toy to with for people to play with, but it is a little like

you know, when we're thinking of terms of people like me and you who have been around producing forever and it does kind of take away some of the spark that that has. But I mean, any producer if you play like an AI track like we know right away. So

Brian Funk (19:43.337)

Hm. Yeah, even if I don't know and I'm enjoying it, once I find out I'm like, I don't care anymore. It there's there's something that I don't know why exactly, but there is something that just kinda like my interest just disintegrates the moment I discover that. I g I guess like maybe 'cause the first thing you ask when you hear a song you like or

Low End Candy (19:52.066)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh-huh.

Brian Funk (20:12.104)

You d who did that? Or you see a great movie like, who was the director? Who was inv you wanna know about the people that created it?

Low End Candy (20:18.348)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (20:24.338)

Yeah, that's all that. Yeah, so like you've been doing a lot of cool stuff, a lot of teaching too. you were out here in Brooklyn with three four three for a while. And I'm I'm wondering like I found at least I learned I learned more than anything when I'm teaching. which is funny, you wouldn't think, but that's

Low End Candy (20:32.846)

Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (20:36.515)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (20:48.568)

For sure, yeah.

Brian Funk (20:51.88)

That's what happens. You you wind up being the one pretty much that learns the most. what'd you gain out of those experiences?

Low End Candy (21:00.279)

Of teaching?

Brian Funk (21:01.416)

Yeah. Yeah. Anything to change the way you see things or the way you work or anything?

Low End Candy (21:07.212)

Yeah, so I mean my my experience with teaching as a whole, like I I did go to Icon Collective, which now is closed, but for those of you who don't know, it's a very like neat you're not niche, but like it's a electronic music production or was school and it was it was in Burbank and I remember when I was first started to produce, I would

I saw a video from Jaws, you know, who's a bass house producer and he was talking about it. And then I went and looked and just all these incredible artists were coming out of there. So my thought process has always been like you don't know what you don't know. And I've been blessed enough to when I decided I wanted to start producing, which was p ten years ago now or so, I had a cousin who's been producing for a long time and he's he's an old school hip hop guy. So he he's been working on the since the ASRs. So like I remember going back over to his house when

I was little, eight or nine years old, and they were working off floppy drives, so like the a the floppy disks, and they were putting them into samplers, sampling sounds off record, so they were unplugging a left or right speaker. And just like this was like the first way that people were producing beats is like grabbing these samples and making loops out of them, and they were just in his room making beats and were rapping over them and stuff. So I've had him as a resource to kind of like bounce questions off, but like in my

experience and my opinion I think the best way to to get good at production is to work with a mentor because again you don't know what you don't know so there's been times where I've been teaching people and there's you know I I've had like people where you know this guy was like man I've been trying to create this sound I just can't get it I've been working on it for days and he's been trying to synthesize the sound and and you know I was able to take one listen and tell him like that's a sample so you're probably not gonna be able to like synthesize it. So you don't know

You don't know. And so I went to Icon Collective and that was an amazing experience. a very like unique experience. It was during COVID, unfortunately, so it was it was a a bit like limited as far as in-person experience and networking. But after that, I one of my instructors there was Great Dane, who's a tremendous trap and bass producer, actually one of my favorites, so it was a little bit ironic that he worked there. And then they signed me as his mentor. but we kind of connected, and after that he was like, do you wanna you know

Low End Candy (23:31.56)

move up here to LA, I'm looking for a roommate. We kinda made similar styles, so I ended up doing that. And he plugged me in with a number of just my favorite producers. One was John Casey. John Casey's a trap producer out of

South Africa. A really cool guy. I've known him a number of years now. But I worked with him directly one on one for several months. And it was during COVID. So again, he was stuck basically in South Africa. He wasn't able to come over here and tour and play. So he was he was mentoring at the time. And in those s I don't know, four or five months I was working with him directly, almost weekly. That is where my production really kind of changed course because there was someone who had the skills that I

I wanted to develop and I was able to ask the him questions directly. And so that experience for me was I would say more beneficial than my entire experience at Icon Collective and my years and years of like trying to figure stuff out on my own. So what really got me into teaching was being able to offer that to people because I think it's an optimized way to get to where you want to go and you know, in any sort of business or any sort of anything in life, you want a mentor who's been there. And so

So that basically gave me the drive to want to like be able to offer that. And I started teaching a couple years before I was at 343 and

It was just basically one on one. I did it through Super Prof, which is an amazing platform. They basically people can can search for what they're looking for as far as an artist and a DA and they connect you guys and you could basically take it from there on, you know, what kind of like mentorship or relationship you wanna have. I really enjoyed doing that and again, like you said, I learned so much from the people I was teaching, as far as like, you know, where are people stuck at and like

Low End Candy (25:26.603)

What like sometimes people would people who had been producing like a week would pull up and I'd be like, I did not know you could do that in Ableton like crazy stuff like that. So and then just developing amazing connections with people that I still am in touch with today, people I I've mentored long time ago. and so

Brian Funk (25:33.556)

Mm.

Low End Candy (25:46.786)

Then I moved, I was in Florida at the time, and then I moved to New York City, where my old roommate, Great Dane from LA, actually lived. And I I knew I wanted to get in the music industry or connected in the music education industry. He was a ment teacher at at 343 Labs. So I kind of followed him over there and I was like, Hey, what's up? Can you get me, you know, can you plug me in here? And he did plug me in as the content guy. And so when I was at 343, I did their videos, I did their social media.

and I would do their YouTube videos. So I never taught directly in a classroom setting, but I was responsible for walkthroughs of you know, new Ableton devices and new Ableton features and production techniques and whatnot. So that's where I really got into the content side of things and you know, getting better with the camera and a and a microphone and all that kind of stuff and you know

being kind of the latest on on Ableton updates and being able to v provide that for students and on their YouTube channel. and yeah, I just I've always enjoyed it. Like I always like to be the one to like, you know, show people stuff or or put people on cool stuff and I'm a huge nerd about Ableton. So

Yeah, that was also really cool and then, you know, being able to see like making a video and being able to see like the lights come on for someone, they're like, my god, I didn't know you could do that or whatever, in the sea of negative comments, it's always cool to see those, you know, on YouTube and stuff. So yeah, teaching overall and and being at three four three has just been really cool because I had those people there for me in you know, when I was a novice and I didn't know anything and and being able to like provide that to people and then like kind of work together as a community, to

Brian Funk (27:09.928)

Hmm.

Low End Candy (27:31.049)

like figure stuff out and like we're all doing this together is is a cool experience I think.

Brian Funk (27:36.264)

Yeah. Yeah, that's a cool path too that, you know, just from connecting with people really is sort of the the theme I'm seeing here is you're you're making connections through the people you're learning from and then next thing you know you're you're in that world with on the other end of it. y you just never really know where all this stuff is gonna lead when you start down these paths.

Low End Candy (27:45.569)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (27:54.295)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (28:01.313)

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's crazy, you know.

Brian Funk (28:06.769)

Yeah, I'm sh sure I've seen some of those videos that you worked on then. 'Cause see that on

Low End Candy (28:12.033)

Yeah, yeah. It's and like you could definitely see the progression of like when I started the videos were just so cringe, like the audio and video quality and like it's yeah, it's just, you know, try to do stuff better one percent every time you do it. And

Brian Funk (28:24.935)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (28:25.845)

For anyone who's thinking about starting doing content or teaching, like I thought I was like the last person to ever do anything like that. Like I don't like being on camera. I'm not like that, hey, what's up, YouTubers guy? Like I'm not like that type of dude, but like, I do like sharing knowledge and like definitely it's something that comes with time, but it's definitely like feasible. And it's my my YouTube channel, my teaching has

Definitely taking me places like I never thought I would go in like production and education and companies reaching out to me. probably like the coolest thing to me now is like when companies reach out to me and they're like, do you want to try our plug in? And do you or do you want to like review our like piece of gear? And I'm like, Yes, like free gear like a free plug in or like some free speakers, like that's awesome to me. So yeah, yeah, I love that stuff. Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (29:13.147)

Yeah. Yeah, it's an honor. That's cool. You know, you you tapped in on two different things that in the last two days I got emails from people about. one person was someone that listened to the podcast, another was a former student. but they were one was sort of like wondering when am I ready? When when can I like start, you know, moving forward with this and I I was

Basically like what you said, you you just get one percent better. You start out terrible. You you're never ready. You and don't wait to be ready. Don't wait for the certificate in the mail or the permission from, you know, some what it just doesn't ever come. And it might be why

Low End Candy (29:49.579)

Yeah. Uh-huh.

Brian Funk (30:00.14)

so many of us kind of feel like imposters through half of it where you're kind of like, how do I get here? Well how am I talking to you right now? Like y you know, like but it's you just gotta start doing it and just try things out. It's so much easier to go down the wrong path and then turn around and go down another path because y you just

Low End Candy (30:04.61)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (30:08.846)

Hundred percent, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (30:24.883)

now you have momentum at least and you don't really know what the wrong path is half the time until you go down it anyway. And you can't foresee all these things that are about to happen until they start happening.

Low End Candy (30:31.512)

Yeah, that's that's very true.

Mm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (30:41.037)

So it's yeah, you just gotta get in there and that was one person and the other person was kinda like, you know, been through school now. I've getting a degree, now what? And so much of it is about making those connections with other people, talking to people, learning from people, showing up where the music's happening and

being involved like like you came out to teach, got whatever job you can. All right, I'm making content. I never thought I'd be doing that. But that's it's a great thing to have in your pocket now. you're reaching people because of that. And because you've done some of that, I'm sure people are coming into low end candy to see some of the plugins you're making, some of the devices you're making. it all kind of fits together in a weird way that doesn't make sense until you sort of look back on it.

Low End Candy (31:35.864)

Yeah, no, that's for sure been the case.

Brian Funk (31:39.699)

Hmm. So, you we were talking about the extensions. I'm kinda curious, what have you found that's really exciting for you?

Low End Candy (31:50.915)

The extent so the thing about the extensions is like I

Like I try to be like the first person in the know of like Ableton stuff. So I have like the the beta program and like as soon as like I see that a beta update is has been released, like I hop in there and like look at the notes. And like really the trick with like YouTube is like if you're the first person to talk about something, like your video's gonna do well. So that's kind of always been like my edge is like I like if it's like two AM and like Ableton drops an update release, like I'm gonna like

sh like shower, put my clothes on, like turn my lights on and make a video then because that's what's gonna like separate me from like all the videos that follow. I remember

Trash Isotope has a really cool plugin called Trash, which is like just horrendous distortion that sounds awesome for like bass music. And I saw it come out like randomly. I was up at like 3 a.m. and I saw it come out and I'm like, I need to make a video about this right now. And I got one out in like two hours, and like I think to this day it's like the number one video for trash. And I have I've had like Virtual Riot commented on stuff, which is really cool for me. but to circle back about the extensions is I saw those come out and I was like, okay, this is huge. I know

Brian Funk (32:41.863)

Distortion, yeah.

Low End Candy (33:04.88)

need to like hop in this right now and see what's actually possible because I feel like it's

a little blurry exactly at this point like what able like what extensions are capable of doing and what they're like aside from what they're capable of doing what they're actually gonna be like practical for. And so I right away I hopped into extensions. I started playing with them. I started asking like different language models of like, what can I do? What's gonna be cool. And short very shortly after that I was kinda like my whole thought process is like I'm gonna be the extensions guy. Like because if you can get kind of that like ahead of of other people like you can kind of get that authority.

Brian Funk (33:21.011)

Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (33:39.795)

And that's like huge for a channel. But right after that is where my my brain started to turn, and I was like.

If I can make these like how can I get into like the VST game? And so my attention's definitely been turned to that, like in full force, as opposed to like sticking with the extensions. So I haven't dived quite as deep as I would have liked to in the extensions. but that's definitely something I'm gonna circle back to because I think I definitely think there's a lot of cool stuff there to be done. So I mean I you like what's your experience been with the extensions so far?

Brian Funk (34:12.807)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (34:17.86)

It's been very little so far. just you know, trying to find the time to work with everything. It's so funny how fast like these updates are happening now where it's like the new thing comes out, cool, cool. And then I and th thankfully through teaching especially, all the stuff that I sort of forgot about, the new stuff that was really exciting that you'd forget about 'cause another new thing came out, that stuff s tends to resurface a lot.

but I like a lot of the stuff that makes sample editing faster, like even just the strip silence. where that will just take if I have, you know, a twenty minute piece of audio I'm just hitting random things, it'll just chop it for me and just give me the hits and take all that silence away. And that's something Pro Tools had when I first got Pro Tools in like two thousand five. But it

Low End Candy (34:47.693)

Sure.

Low End Candy (35:15.502)

Mm.

Brian Funk (35:18.244)

I didn't have no use for it really then, but now is like samples and just the renaming stuff, I think it's gonna help me do some more of that kind of stuff that I like to do without the tedious part of like, okay, let's zoom in, let's get it right to the edge, let's zoom out and then go to the next one and it it's just manual labor that I could certainly do without. That kind of stuff I think is pretty exciting.

Low End Candy (35:20.237)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (35:42.466)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (35:46.929)

Some of the just like the renaming, the I I don't even Yeah, and I don't even know like you said, like what can I even do? Like I this is probably why I never got into programming Max for Live too, is because I I don't even know what I would make really. And there's so many people making a lot of cool stuff that I never knew I wanted until I have it.

Low End Candy (35:50.766)

the renaming clips.

Low End Candy (36:13.452)

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Uh-huh.

Brian Funk (36:17.042)

But I think anything that's gonna make me work faster is gonna be fun and interesting to have.

Low End Candy (36:21.922)

Yeah, I agree. That's kind of like the power I saw in the extensions. Is I think the first one I played with was like

automatic clip coloring. So it would basically analyze your clips and like based on the type of sound it was, if it was like a bass or drum, it would recolor them. I'm like, that's brilliant. Like that's cause I'm like a very like organized project kind of guy. Like I'm not like tons of tracks, unnamed, I'm like everything like I'm very like analytic about that because again it helps me produce faster. Like I don't want to have to go around and guess like which one's the drum and like the c so like the coloring and the renaming like those are amazing. Those are like

Amazing as far as I know, I don't think there's been like a third party device or anything that's capable of doing that. So like totally agree with you there. Those kind of extensions are like amazing and I feel like there has been some features that other dots have had for a while that Ableton hasn't had. And I know Ableton probably gets slacked for that. Like and I I don't know if they like gatekeep or like what they're doing. but I feel like they kind of handed it over to us and they're like, Okay, like if there's something that's missing, like you guys go you

You go and make it. And that's I feel like that was kind of the thing with Max for Live too. And that's what's been like really has separated Ableton like away from from all the other dolls is like giving you the flexibility to like create what works for you. But yeah, those are a couple of the ones that I've really liked as far as extensions goes. I should definitely like hop on YouTube and see what what people are making and what what ones have came out because I'm probably a little behind the curve on those at this point.

Brian Funk (37:56.487)

Yeah. Well I guess historically if you look back at some of the Macs for Live things that have come out, a lot of them do become features down the road and it's it seems like they use that as a way to test out things and see like how it's gonna work and what people are doing. even just like like the follow actions on the scenes is one that comes to mind where there were

some solutions for that with Max for Live that were cool. But now that you know that I guess they saw how it was working and then integrated it in a way that was now it's just really smooth and works just like any other follow action. I can imagine that's something that might start happening where they see like, hey look this is something somebody came up with it's helpful. People are using it. And we'll

Probably smooth it out, streamline it a bit. Get it in there.

Low End Candy (38:56.3)

Yeah, yeah. I think about that. I wonder how because there's there's so many like Max for Live communities and it's like such like a niche thing. it's definitely like once you get into like the Max for Live things, like you're like an official nerd. It's like it's funny 'cause I tell people like when I started making music like ten years ago or like I just wanted to like make beats, like make cool beats and like it went from that to like

I tell people like I wanted to be like an artist and now I'm like a nerd with back problems because I sit here all day and I'm playing with like Macs for Live Devices and this and that. But like yeah, there's a r a lot of really cool niche communities for for what people are building and and people are just cooking stuff up and for the most part just sharing them. You know, they're just a lot of them are free or they're ch or they're very like reasonably priced. But I wonder at what point Ableton sees something and they either recreate it or they're potentially reach out to the developer and they're like, Hey, this is something we wanna offer.

so I mean, I think that'd be pretty cool, but yeah, we'll see what they do.

Brian Funk (39:57.842)

Well, I bet you can relate to this with some of the stuff you make. Yeah, there's a lot of people speaking up. Why doesn't live have this? You see it every time an update comes, they're like, Well what the hell you don't have this and that. but

Low End Candy (40:10.742)

Yeah, huh.

Brian Funk (40:16.123)

How do you have a piece of software that is it's a good it's like twenty I think it came out in two thousand, it's so it's like twenty six years old where you're constantly adding things. And one of the things that I loved about Live is it was pretty clean and simple and easy to f navigate, you know, stuff I I love the consistency of it where a knob is a knob everywhere.

Low End Candy (40:41.122)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (40:41.261)

And in some of the other DAWs that I was in, like every time you open a new plugin or a new device, it's like a whole new spaceship I have to learn. And it helped me understand stuff because I'd see like I would understand like, this is just another filter. This is just another envelope, just like in the other thing, whereas I never could see the connection. But how do you not make it

Low End Candy (40:48.844)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (41:05.217)

after a while just have so many buttons and faders and menus that it's impossible to use. And I I could imagine you must you must think about this when you're doing yours, like what do I give you access to? How far do I let that knob actually go? Because you could probably let us have a a reverse reverb that's seventy-two minutes long if we wanted to.

Low End Candy (41:26.094)

Mm.

Low End Candy (41:32.685)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (41:32.901)

But you must have at a time said like, All right, it doesn't need to go that far. This is enough.

Low End Candy (41:37.945)

Yeah, a hundred percent. Like that's that's the part where like theoretically, I mean anyone can can go in and like if they dedicate the time and and the effort they can make their own plug-in. But it's like that touch of a producer who's been, you know, working in music for such a long time is is like the the what makes it different as far as like, okay, I know this sounds good, I know we don't need this, I know we don't need that. What are like the core features that makes this like exciting and usable for a professional producer, but not over

overwhelming for someone who's like kind of testing the waters and is just like getting getting used to the the the feel of things. And so I fe I feel like I've done a good job of like this is what sounds good and I've getting like I've gotten a lot of emails of like hey you should add this and add that and like I definitely always take those into consideration but I at the same time yeah keeping the plug-in simple because I feel like one of the quickest ways to get like task paralysis is when you open up a plug-in and it's just like

You have no idea what's going on in there. Like I remember, you know, being in the production game like six months, and someone's you need serum. And then you open up serum and you're like, What is going on here? It just looks scary. There's like a thousand knobs and wave tables and menus and stuff like that. So, yeah, trying to keep a good balance of like, okay, this is what's useful and this is what's what's gonna help somebody who's been doing this for a long time, like do it correct and make it sound good, and then someone who's like new can still utilize it.

Brian Funk (42:50.265)

Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (43:07.828)

And like get the hang of it quick. One feature I added was, and I love this, and all any plugin should have this, I think, is the the randomize button. So it's a it's a dice icon on mine and it's it is all on all of other plugins as well. And basically you click it and it randomizes like all the different knobs that would make sense to be randomized in one click. And like to me, that's being a bass music producer, like it's always been about like no rules, like there's no rules.

like whatever sounds cool however you get there and so that's kind of been like a a technique I've used on a lot of stuff is like let's just kind of like I call like beadsurfing like randomizing sounds until you find something that sounds cool and my thought process with that is like that's something that you pre an area that your brain wouldn't have gone in because a lot of the times as producers like our brains go in the same directions every time as far as like okay I do this and this and I use this filter and whatever. So like the randomized feature I think is really cool because you can like stumble upon

on a sound that you wouldn't have thought of in the first place. And it's also cool because like even if you don't know all the technicalities of like every knob, we all know what sounds good to us. And so being able to like sit there and play us play it over sound and just hit randomize and feel like, wow, that's rad. is like I think that's a really cool feature. And I think that people are gonna have a lot of fun with that. I have a

Ableton rack that's been really popular where it's basically 12 macros that are all mapped in a very like thought out way to different serum knobs in in like the the correct ranges where it makes sense. So there's like LFO speed, filter, like wavetable, and basically what you can do is like you can take an existing preset and hit hit the randomize button, and it's gonna randomize all those macros and give you for the most part like a really cool.

Brian Funk (44:46.737)

Mm.

Low End Candy (44:59.988)

unique sound that like nobody else has that you would have not have thought of any other way. So I love stuff like that and I love being like experimental and coming up with like in my opinion one of the things that makes an artist like good is having sounds that no one else has. Like the way I explained to it to students is like

If me and you wanna go to we want a we want a double double or whatever it is, we're gonna go to In N Out. We're not gonna go to the burger place across the street that makes burgers just like In N Out doesn't make any sense. So there's a lot of good artists out there, like insanely like technical good artists who can make s like music just like Skrillex, but it's like if we wanna hear Skrillex, we're just gonna go listen to Skrillex. So my thought process has always been like, how can you come up with something original that no one else has?

And I feel like stuff like that, like features like that, can really like kind of do that for you. And you don't again, you don't have to be like you don't have to have technical knowledge about every single knob. You can just like kind of find something that sounds good and and resample it and just work with it and you know put it in your library and that's your sound now. So I feel like and you know, again, some technical people might not like that approach, but I feel like for me that's always been something, even with my technical knowledge that is like, okay, this is really cool. This gives me

like a unique sound no one else has and this is gonna like help me to grow as an artist. So

Brian Funk (46:29.678)

Yeah, I think it's an awesome button. And s a lot of plugins have it and it's always kinda fun. And some of them some of them are chaotic and like it just ruins everything and but some of them are a little more dialed in and they're even ones where you can exclude certain parameters. I mean I love even on macros inside of live on an instrument rack to just bloop, click it. And then you can save those little macro presets in there. Yeah, I I get a lot of

Low End Candy (46:38.753)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (46:54.666)

Exactly, yeah, that that random button.

Brian Funk (46:59.268)

things that I wouldn't decide to do because whatever, maybe I just wouldn't think of it or I'm not supposed to. But that's where a lot of the interesting territory is. And you mentioned like bass music and so much of what you're not supposed to do has become kind of what you do now. And a lot of that sound design clipping is like remember when you were never supposed to clip? It was like the worst thing you could do.

Low End Candy (47:02.776)

Yep.

Low End Candy (47:20.13)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (47:26.016)

Yeah, yeah.

That exactly, that's like it's like for me bass music is like the twenty twenty six version of rock and roll where it's like let's just sort the guitars and let's like that's kind of how it is to me is like let's break like one thing I heard over and over in at Icon is like learn the rules so you can break So learn the rules, like learn the correct way to do everything, but then so you can like break in your own unique way and like kind of make your own rules. And there's an artist I really like, his name is Jessic, shout out Jessic, and he literally just

Brian Funk (47:36.837)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:44.848)

Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (47:57.429)

just clips every track he has is like clipped like he clipped hard and but he does it in an artistic way where it always sounds like so good and like intentional. So yeah I feel like you know in bass music and stuff like that breaking the rules is clipping is just like you know if you ain't redlining you ain't headlighting like yeah right

Brian Funk (48:20.784)

That's funny. But when you're trying to so much of that music especially is the sound. You know, it's it's not a lot of other genres, it it doesn't really matter as much, but it's a big part of it. And you need to have something that people haven't heard, or that's surprises them, or that's unusual, pleasing, or d sometimes even not pleasing, but it's presented in a way that

Low End Candy (48:28.662)

Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (48:44.61)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (48:50.008)

makes it interesting and fun. But you're not gonna get there just doing everything by the book.

Low End Candy (48:52.3)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (48:57.144)

Exactly. Yeah, and that's so I have a sec kind of like a

second edition of like what happens if this is backwards plug-in that just dropped actually and it's called Slingshot. And it basically what it is is it's reverse delay, which to my knowledge isn't something that's common at all. Like I don't think I I've never done that. I don't even know how you really would do that. And so my thought process was like, well preverb's been pretty successful, a lot of people really like it. what if we reverse delay? And this is an area where

It's kind of like uncharted territories and it's really like crazy unique. The randomized button we have like it's basically the can like same framework as Preverb, but we have all the the controls that would be on delay. So there's like different delay kinds. There's like

you know, ping pong and and filter delay and and everything. But then you can also reverse the delayed signal. So it's playing up until the transient, same as prevert, but you can have the reverse the the sample played backwards delayed or forwards. And then there's some really unique there's like an LFO you can map to stuff. and so that's something I feel like like for me with plugins like I feel like every producer's been through this where you're like new in production or you're not and

You've been around a while and you're just a plug-in junkie. Like every time a plugin comes in, like I need that. Like this is gonna make me produce better. And you end up with like thousands and thousands of dollars of plugins. And I would say for me, like speaking personally, pr probably like 70-80% of them like do the same thing. Like I can't tell you how many distortion plugins I have. I can't tell you how many like EQs I have. And there's ones that are different, there's ones that have features that none of the other ones do. But as far as plugins that are truly unique.

Low End Candy (50:54.152)

There's very few that I like I could probably name like five or ten that can there's the only plugins that can do that kind of thing. So that's kind of like the angle with Preverb, that's kind of the angle with Slingshot. It's like this is a plugin that nothing else in your plugin library can replace or do. And so that's kind of where I'm at with with, you know, the low-end candy plugins as a whole right now. There's actually some other really cool free ones I have up right now.

that or kind of kind of in that that same ballpark. But Slingshot I feel like I I'm really excited to see what like some creative artists are gonna do with because it's a sound like reverse delay is like a is a sound that really catches your ear because I I don't I don't think I've ever really heard like a sound or sample like that or or someone use that to my knowledge. So yeah that's that's an idea I'm kind of stoked on right now.

Brian Funk (51:50.512)

Hm. Well that is a good thing to aim for 'cause yeah, I've got I was thinking about this even when you were talking about I think it was shortcut buddy where you hit the E and your EQ pops up. how many EQs are there that are maybe some subtle mo

you know, modification of some hardware or this was and you probably have like seven of that hardware, that particular board. And they're all slightly where I I just most of them I don't even come back to. You know, I get and they go in the folder and I might try them at the time, but you know, they just kind of vanish. I'm I'm at the point now where I'd I'm much more hesitant to add

Low End Candy (52:18.979)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (52:28.77)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (52:40.559)

plug in to what I have 'cause I'm realizing that I'm just overwhelmed every time I go to look that it's like where do I even start? I I don't remember what company made it or, you know, it just it becomes a lot to navigate through a gigantic list of

Low End Candy (52:43.085)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (52:51.618)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (53:01.206)

Mhm. Yeah, at a certain point it becomes like like you not like you don't want any more plugins because it's like actually causing you problems. You're like like ta like paralysis of like which one to pick and like when really for me like there's like ten plugins I use out of like who knows how many that are, you know, actually in like my library of like I need this one. So

Brian Funk (53:12.053)

It's not helping anymore. Yeah.

Low End Candy (53:25.624)

Yeah, I'm hoping that, you know, pre verb and slingshot can be for some creative artists, like, this is a tool that I reach for for this effect that I can't get anywhere else. Like for some of those for me that I remember were like Voice of God is one by Little Labs. I don't know if familiar with that one, but it's like Yeah, it's like a a that one is like it's a base r

Brian Funk (53:42.271)

I've seen that around, yeah. I don't have that one. Don't tell me. No, just joking.

Low End Candy (53:49.535)

Don't tell me, yeah, yeah. It's like a bass resonator tool and like it's got a sound that I'm like literally the voice of God. It's like it just enhances your bass in a way that no other plug in has or can do. And so I'm I'm like hoping that, you know, we can kind of like follow in those footsteps and have ones that are like irreplaceable parts of people's plug in inventory.

Brian Funk (54:11.215)

Yeah. Well that's tough to do 'cause you need that original idea, you know. so to be able to get there, y you gotta think outside the box and probably it goes in with like what you've said to students about trying to be unique, trying to be different. It's not even just the sounds or the workflows, but also just, yeah, like what kinds of tools are you using.

Low End Candy (54:15.118)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:41.955)

How are you putting them to work? going to the trouble sometimes of doing things the hard way. actually recording the samples, even though you could probably just download it. But there's something special about that. If you've maybe you want some birds in your track, you could download and have in five seconds, but going out and seeing what you can get.

Low End Candy (54:42.008)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (54:55.63)

Mm.

Low End Candy (55:08.75)

Mm.

Brian Funk (55:09.059)

I mean, not only is it personalized and special to you in that experience, but you might come across something by accident too that you're not gonna get when you just search in like birds in the morning on whatever. You might

Low End Candy (55:23.96)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What do they call it? a like a beautiful accident or like you know, when when you stumble upon some and that's like another been a another huge like technique and thought process of mine is like kind of like finding rhythm where rhythm is not and like I was saying earlier, you know, having sounds no one else has.

Brian Funk (55:31.395)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (55:50.177)

like one of the first songs I put out on I on my first C P like twenty nineteen, twenty twenty. I was like sitting at my desk and I was hitting pots and pans with spoons and knives. And I just came up with this like articulation and this pattern that I'm like that is so cool. Never would have thought of it and it went in like one of my most popular songs. So yeah, I agree with you. Like getting those original samples and ideas no one else has is key.

Brian Funk (56:20.621)

Yeah, it takes an awareness to realize, that's making a sound. That's it. There's a rhythm to that. You hear that? Like the the copy machine is it's like jamming out, you know. Pay attention to it. and then go to the trouble of just capturing it and doing something with it. not necessarily knowing where it's gonna take you.

Low End Candy (56:27.873)

Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (56:33.11)

Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Low End Candy (56:45.634)

Mm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (56:47.065)

That's that's where a lot of the fun is for me these days is the surprise of it. The like unknown and i because it's almost like a form of collaboration with yourself, where I wasn't expecting that, and now I'm gonna do something that I never would have done. Almost like another person came up with a musical idea and then now I'm reacting to it and in a different place than I would have been without that.

Low End Candy (56:53.09)

Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (57:14.53)

Yeah, you know what you like. That's one thing about production.

Brian Funk (57:17.486)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (57:19.99)

If you know what you like and you you know, you hear it, then it can't be wrong and that's kinda like like you were saying, like you had the student who never knew when he was like ready and you know, imposter syndrome and like that's I feel like that's in all of us. Like and the part is is like I feel like a lot of like the artists I look up to and the ones that have have made it, are the ones who are confident in their ability that they're what they like is good if it's good to them then it's good to

Then they're gonna put it out and they're gonna stand behind it. And like that's I have I've you know, every student I have, and myself included, who is like, you know, I'm not gonna put this out because it's not perfect and this and that. And like one of the biggest lessons I've learned in music is like put stuff out. Because nobody can hear stuff when it's like on your hard drive. And that's how you get better is by finishing tracks and putting stuff out. And it's just it's like a sad day when there's like a really good artist and someone's like, shit.

Brian Funk (58:14.777)

Mm.

Low End Candy (58:19.961)

Show me your music and it well there's nothing out yet or there's nothing on my sound cloud and it's like yeah, you know, n like there's is never gonna be a right time. I feel like you're never gonna be like obsessed or like think one of your tracks is perfect. Maybe you will. I've never have. And so just putting out music and like having fun, I feel like is is what what makes you better as an artist.

Brian Funk (58:43.149)

I think so. And you gotta practice finishing. You gotta practice getting there 'cause if you don't then you have that gem idea and you don't know what to do with it. And those those reps matter. yeah, like I I mean I'm generally pretty proud and happy with anything I put out, but it's not 'cause it's perfect. I mean I'm not going for that, but

Low End Candy (58:46.467)

Yep.

Low End Candy (58:52.737)

Exactly, yeah. Can't finish it.

Brian Funk (59:13.571)

There's an excitement to getting there for the next thing because you're like, Okay, yeah, that was cool and now I know what I really gonna do next and it keeps you going. But when I d when I'm not finishing stuff or I'm getting stuck, like I don't get those feelings of like, yeah, now, next, let's go and see what we can do here. all that stuff feeds it feeds you, you know.

Low End Candy (59:20.791)

Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (59:31.663)

Yeah, yeah. Mm. Yeah.

Low End Candy (59:38.925)

Yeah, for sure.

Low End Candy (59:43.162)

So I'm curious, yeah, I'm like I was th I was looking at some of your stuff you were doing earlier, and what's new for you in terms of with all the developments of like being able to create some new stuff, do you have any plans as far as like, you know, creating some some extensions or some plugins or some new new Ableton devices or

Brian Funk (59:43.255)

It's cool stuff.

Brian Funk (01:00:05.696)

Yeah, I don't know about extensions really of what I could make, but I wanna I ha I want I'm excited to get into it more. So w just seeing what people are making and seeing what's going on with that. I'm excited though because I think it's gonna help me make more stuff. Like I was telling you about like cutting up samples and stuff. something I wanna do this summer that I need to get on is I I wanna take

Low End Candy (01:00:15.951)

Mm.

Low End Candy (01:00:20.013)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:00:35.084)

I have an old piano in my house. And I've already made instruments out of it. It's o over a hundred years old, so I call it the hundred year old piano. And it's it's quirky. Like it's yeah, there's keys that make noise and you know, funny things about it, but that's why I love it, 'cause it's got a lot of character. But I wanna get some felt and put it in there, make kinda like a mellow felt piano, something kind of muffled down and sample that nice.

Low End Candy (01:00:51.726)

Mm

Brian Funk (01:01:04.562)

so that's a project I wanna work on. make music, really. That that's big right now. I feel I got some time on my hands, so yeah, I'm just excited to record stuff. Not even exactly sure what, but just follow the the excitement. I just got one of these

It's called the jam stick actually right here. This guitar here. It's called the jamstick. And they've been making for a while, but now they finally just made like a guitar. And it's a MIDI controller, but it's also a guitar too. So it's so responsive. I that's my instrument is guitar. Like that's how I understand music the best. So

Low End Candy (01:01:45.935)

I guess I'll

Low End Candy (01:01:55.28)

So now you could play in the MIDI okay, yeah, I saw that.

Brian Funk (01:01:57.335)

Yeah, I'm like playing the synths with it. I'm like, whoa. Like and it responds to bends and vibrato. I I'm very impressed with it. I've tried other things in the past that were just disappointing and that really never used. But this thing is like I'm like, wow, this might make a real difference for me.

Low End Candy (01:02:04.522)

rad.

Low End Candy (01:02:09.527)

Mm.

Low End Candy (01:02:16.151)

Yeah. Did you did you go to Nam or do you do you typically go? man.

Brian Funk (01:02:20.502)

I've never gone to NAM, no. Yeah. I've wanted to, but it's usually while I'm working, teaching, so it's never a good weekend for me. At some point I'd like to go. I mean, especially just for meeting people. Like I a lot of people I speak to here are there and they're like, it's n are you gonna be at NAM? I'm like, No

Low End Candy (01:02:28.483)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Low End Candy (01:02:35.854)

Mm-hmm.

Low End Candy (01:02:43.673)

If you ever have the chance, like definitely check it out. Just as far as like people getting s you know, trying to get stuff off the ground and new like MIDI tools and synthesizer. It's like it's like a candy store. Like you could just be there for for weeks. But I think I saw that that guitar there, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:02:57.453)

I bet.

Yeah, th they're cool. They're they're making a good product right now, that's for sure. I'm into it. are y you ever think of like presenting your stuff there? Getting a booth or something?

Low End Candy (01:03:12.827)

That would be cool, yeah. That would be be very cool.

Like I was saying, this the whole like stumbling into the VST world has been like new for me in the last couple of months. I, you know, in being a music producer and basically my my thought process has always been like what can I do that a involves music, so I'm I'm working in something I love and B is somewhat passive so I can make more music. And so that's kind of always been my goal is like, you know, do something I'm passionate about and that allows me the time to kind of like make my own music.

And so

I in you know, in attempting to do that, I I've done a lot of teaching, I've done a lot of like course creating and stuff like that, but finally kind of like turning the corner of getting into VSTs is is kind of like I'm kind of creeping up on where I want to be, where I can do something I love, be creative, work in music, talk to people like you, and then have the time and resources to create my own music. So the VSC thing's like super new, but like I've been very surprised of s of like the support I've gotten from from like certain websites and companies.

and like people I look up to who are artists I look up to who are stoked on it. So I think that would be a realistic possibility is, you know, trying to get a booth at Nam and and and teaching teaching about the plugins and what they can do.

Low End Candy (01:04:36.463)

But yeah, it's kind of like for me this whole journey's been like super random and like just kind of having fun, honestly. Like I kind of like come up to my computer every day and I'm like, how can I do something like that's fun that I'd love to do and and make something that's beneficial for other people? And that's kind of like how teaching is too. It's like let's hop on a call and be excited about music and like I'll show you some stuff, like I'll produce, you'll produce. So yeah, I I would like to do that at some point. You know, it's like I have I have no idea.

idea where you know it's gonna I got plans but where it's gonna take me as far as what's next and you know a lot of everything we do is really also like hindering on what's gonna happen with like technology and AI. So I'm also like keeping that taking that into consideration. But you know like we were talking about AI is is that no place

replace you know a real artist or like a real good idea and if you've ever ever asked AI something about music you know that because it'll it'll give you like technical knowledge but like most of the time it's wrong and or not like it's just the the creative part is not on point and that's why there's so many MIDI generation tools out there that are just not it and like I've I've reviewed a bunch of them and I've I've had a lot of companies reach out to me and I won't like put something on my channel that I don't stand behind or I don't enjoy

So like I've had a lot of companies are like, try our you know, AI Midgeneration tool or like our MIDI controller. And if I don't like it, like I'm not gonna make it I'm not gonna tell my audience about it. And there's been so many where it's like they're they're getting closer. Like AI can make some pretty good, like MIDI stuff, but it's just it doesn't have like the characteristics of like a real artist. And so

We have a ways to go in that department, but I feel like, you know, we we really have no idea where where AI is gonna take us in terms of like software and accessibility and whatnot. So yeah, we'll we'll kinda see where things go, you know.

Brian Funk (01:06:36.119)

Hm. Yeah, I I hear from those people a lot. I get AI generated emails about the AI music generators. And like almost every day somebody w has something and I'm not terribly interested in it. I like the act of figuring that stuff out and making it. That's

Low End Candy (01:06:46.187)

Yeah, yeah, you're like

Yeah, me too.

Brian Funk (01:07:02.027)

And it a lot of them feels like that's what they're gonna take away from me. So it doesn't interest me, but it's a funny time because even like with creating tools now, there's gotta be a weird and I've heard this from a few people in software development. Like how much do you let them do? 'Cause like we could add a feature in in the DAW like the DAW say is there

Low End Candy (01:07:06.137)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:31.864)

To help you make your music, get your ideas down, be creative, simplify difficult tasks. I mean the ultimate simplification would just be like generate song, right? Like just that one button and like that'd be the whole interface. how far do you how far do you go with putting all this stuff in? How much freedom do you let people have? It is gonna be an interesting

Low End Candy (01:07:44.195)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Mm. Yeah, basically, you know, Suno

Brian Funk (01:08:01.217)

to see where it goes and there's probably gonna be stuff that I mean there already is stuff that does it all for you and there might be stuff that is doesn't let you do half of the stuff you wanna do. I mean, I've recently saw there's a a DAW that's like a real to real machine. I don't know if you're s have you seen that one? It's that's what it is and it's it's very it's just that workflow. And

Low End Candy (01:08:18.095)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:08:28.453)

Having having I have a tape machine and having worked with it, I mean I love the sound of it, but a real big part of it and the fun of it is the workflow, is the limitations, is the fact you're not on a screen and the commitment you have to make to whatever you just recorded is you know, it's kind of thrilling. It there there's a little more danger in what you're doing every time. That's

You know, there's it's like an adrenaline rush or something, like, okay, we're gonna punch in, like shit. We gotta 'cause we're gonna tape over it. It's gone. And so there's a now I just saw like, you know, in the last couple of months there's a DAW, I forget what it's called, but it that's the interface and and that's the whole selling point is like it doesn't have all those features.

Low End Candy (01:09:04.195)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah,

Low End Candy (01:09:20.75)

Yeah, it's it's always like intrigued me how like the goal of production is always to like there is like more and more becoming getting away from like a digital sound and back to like an organic sound as far as like that's always like groove has always like intrigued me. That's been one of my biggest like fascinations 'cause I'm a I'm a big like drum and groove guy and learning that it's like you be you want everything but a robotic on the grid sound. Whereas like a drummer his goal is to

Brian Funk (01:09:33.153)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (01:09:50.676)

be like as on grid as possible and like getting back to those roots of like what what sounds human and like making a doll sound organic. So yeah, stuff like that's cool. I like that.

Brian Funk (01:10:03.617)

Yeah, I find myself having everything I wished I had when I was back in the day on a four track cassette recorder, you know, as a teenager. And like wishing I could play drums and time, wishing I could sing and pitch and all these things. And now I'm like re engineering it back into my music. I'm like screwing with the timing and then, you know, letting things be out of tune because it

Low End Candy (01:10:28.181)

Mm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:33.325)

It is it's a weird thing. When you on a lot of like synths and virtual instruments, when you play a C, it is a C. It if you looked at the the guitar tuner, it's not moving. It's zero point zero cents off. But if you play a even an analogue synth, it's like kind of on a C, you know? And an octave higher is like it's a little different. And

Low End Candy (01:10:43.223)

No, yeah. huh. Yeah.

Yeah.

Low End Candy (01:10:56.579)

Yeah, yeah. You get the

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:11:02.005)

All those little inconsistencies they do add up into something that strangely we prefer. It just feels better.

Low End Candy (01:11:07.247)

For sure.

Low End Candy (01:11:12.877)

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely like your ears can pick it like you know, even as like a just somebody who's enjoying music, like it's definitely something our ears as like humans pick up on. And that's another reason I love Ableton it's tract delay. Like I love the tract delay feature where tract delaying grooves are like two of my favorite things because it's like yeah, my goal is to is to like

nothing should be like maybe w the kick and the snare should be on grid and then everything else should be like and that's what gives it like that bounce and that feeling to it.

Brian Funk (01:11:48.909)

So are you like nudging like your hi hats or something with the track delay, making a little late that way?

Low End Candy (01:11:54.298)

Yeah, I mean I I'll delay my entire percussive group. That's a trick I learned a l a long time ago. It's like literally my entire percussive group I'll I'll delay it like negative twenty milliseconds and it's like almost inaudible, but like that track delay on a lot of different elements like does add up and it for sure gives like that head knottiness I call it. You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. huh.

Brian Funk (01:12:16.274)

So it's like behind the beat a little. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's funny. It's just like a little bit of a lazy percussionist.

Low End Candy (01:12:26.351)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly.

Brian Funk (01:12:28.844)

It's a little bit late to the show. Yeah. The grooves are are incredible and that's sort of a a feature I don't see a lot of people going for. Although they're kind of made it a little more of a default thing in the recent updates. But like you can sample any groove you want. You yeah.

Low End Candy (01:12:30.743)

Yeah. Yep.

Low End Candy (01:12:42.981)

Mm. Yeah, the group full.

Low End Candy (01:12:48.023)

You could extract a groove, yeah. Which is cr like crazy. I've I've hardly ever seen people do that.

Brian Funk (01:12:53.686)

Half the time I think when people are sampling things, that's really what they want. They want that feel and you can just extract it. And yeah, I've I've made a lot of those. I got like you know, Michael Jackson grooves and even though half of that stuff is drum machines, it's still when you look at it, they're not exactly right. Th there's a life to them. But

Low End Candy (01:13:00.738)

Yeah.

Low End Candy (01:13:07.636)

nice.

Low End Candy (01:13:15.395)

Yeah, that's in my opinion that's what separates like those those, you know, Quincy Jones like Timbaland producers is like that those teeny details and like, you know, that creates like that human feel and makes it makes it sound good. So yeah, I I love grooves as well.

Brian Funk (01:13:28.236)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:13:33.644)

Yeah, it's almost intangible, but it's real.

Low End Candy (01:13:37.743)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:38.86)

That's cool. I never really played around with the track delay, to tell you the truth. So to try it. Just I guess I've just always moved MIDI notes and but

Low End Candy (01:13:44.932)

They

Yeah, you can like definitely I mean you can sh I think it's like shift arrow and or command and like nudge stuff. But th they they started like hiding the track delay, it's kinda weird. You gotta go to settings to get it, but it's definitely like a f yeah, yeah, v track options of view or whatever, but it's definitely like and I've seen producers delay stuff by like a hundred milliseconds and it's like it gives you like whiplash basically. It's like I love it. It's one my favorite things.

Brian Funk (01:13:59.457)

Yeah. Track options or something like that.

Brian Funk (01:14:13.58)

That's cool. I'll play around with that.

Low End Candy (01:14:19.075)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:21.932)

Well hey man. it's been awesome chatting with you and good to interact with you in real life after seeing your stuff online for so long. we gotta send people to check you out. I know lowendcandy dot com, that's where they can get preverb and now slingshot and also like a lot of the Max for Live and Ableton stuff that you've got too. A lot of cool stuff. They can sign up for lessons. I think your YouTube channel is really great too.

lot of good stuff there. is there anywhere else you wanna tell people to go see your stuff? I mean, I guess music too, right?

Low End Candy (01:15:01.187)

Yeah, I mean my my artist name is Bohemoth. If you're a bass music fan, it's B-O-H-E-M-Y-T-H. Mostly on SoundCloud because I love using uncleared samples. but if you're a bass music guy or trap guy, like definitely check me out. Definitely send me some music. I love hearing, you know, what people are making. and then yeah, low end candy. I I'm trying to do a little bit more stuff on social media, on TikTok and whatnot. So yeah, definitely come and you know, and check it check it out.

Brian Funk (01:15:29.59)

Nice. Well yeah, definitely do that everybody. So thank you for spending the time and thank you for everyone for listening.

Low End Candy (01:15:39.021)

Yeah. Thank you for having me, Brian. I appreciate it.

]]>Bohemyth - Learning Rules to Break Them - Music Production Podcast #435Mastering Masterclass with Animus InvidiousTutorialsBrian FunkSat, 03 Oct 2026 16:32:42 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/mastering-masterclass52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6ac12d04093f00488dadf794Learn. Ask. Do: Mastering Master Class

This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Mastering Master Class.

  • Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

  • Ask - Participate in the discussion and ask questions.

  • Do - Apply the lesson in a short activity. Get feedback and ask follow-up questions.

Animus Invidious of PerforModule masters two tracks in real time and answers questions along the way. He demonstrates his process using his Finalization Ableton Live Mastering Template.

Get the Finalization Mastering Template here: https://performodule.com/2026/08/17/finalization-audio-mastering-template-for-ableton-live/

Or get it free when you join the Music Production Club: https://gumroad.com/l/admmpc

Join the Music Production Club and attend our meetings live.

Your Music Production Club membership gives you access to:

  • My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

  • The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

  • Live Meetings Over Zoom - Meet with me and the MPC community online! Make music together, share tips and techniques, and give and receive feedback on your music.

  • Music Production Club Exclusives - Ableton Live Packs, Templates, Samples, Presets, and more that are only available to members of the MPC.

  • Educational Materials - My Video Course, Books, and Documents to help you level up your music.

  • Our Online Community - Share your music with and get support from our thriving Discord community. and Monthly Live Meetings over Zoom.

  • Bonus Materials - Free stuff from my store as well as gifts from some musical friends!

  • Special Offers - MPC members get 50% off at my store and special discounts from music companies.

Join the Music Production Club! ]]>Mastering Masterclass with Animus InvidiousThink Like a Synth with Anthony Marinelli - Music Production Podcast #434podcastBrian FunkTue, 29 Sep 2026 09:00:40 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/anthony-marinelli52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6aba916889312608efab55dfAnthony Marinelli is a legendary composer, performer, and synthesist. He worked with Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones on Thriller, James Brown, Kenny Loggins, Van Halen, and many more. He worked on the scores for over 90 original film score soundtracks including War Games, Stand by Me, and one of my favorites Planes, Trains, and Automobiles. He shares his knowledge on his YouTube channels and his in-depth courses Think Like a Synth and Bass DNA.

I spoke with Anthony about how he breaks down sounds for synthesis and visualizes his sounds in his imagination rather than in technical terms. Anthony spoke about getting his start working as a synthesizer player and programmer as a teenage, and what it was like working with legends Michael Jackson and Quincy Jones.

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:09.545)

Anthony, welcome to the show. It's a real pleasure to have you here today.

Anthony (00:13.036)

Thank you, Brian. I'm happy to be here.

Brian Funk (00:15.489)

Yeah, you you've got, I mean, such an impressive career. You've shaped music in general and it's really amazing that you're sharing it so much on your YouTube channel and you've got your course, Think Like a Synth and the Upcoming Course Base DNA. it's really kind of you to take these secrets that you've picked up along the way and techniques and share it with the world. So I've been enjoying your work for a long time. I know a lot of people all as well have. So we're really thankful to have you here today.

Anthony (00:45.068)

Well, that's very nice to hear. I mean, I really appreciate it. I didn't realize it until I started making the videos, you know, how valuable it could be for other people but also for me, because it's just the accelerated my my learning curve.

It seems like the more you share, the more you wanna learn and the more comes back to you and then I'm interacting with people that have great ideas. I mean, it's it's just been a really good two way c kinetic experience for me.

Brian Funk (01:20.397)

Hm. That is the surprising thing about teaching, right? How much you wind up learning along the way.

Anthony (01:26.496)

Yeah, because when you're distilling down to say something so that someone can understand it, 'cause it's like even a relationship, you know, you learn how to speak clearly and y you wanna understand, but then you learn to understand the person you're talking to. And then all of a sudden s things start coming back to you and you go, Well, that's a new perspective on what I thought I knew. That's what happens to me.

Brian Funk (01:47.48)

Hmm. Right. Yeah. Well, you've got so much experience and you know, working I think at a time too when synthesizers were very mysterious, kind of these magical machines that not a lot of people understood. They were out of reach for a lot of people as well. and then you come along, working with people like Michael Jackson, Quincy Jones. it's

It must have been quite an adventure going through that time with this new technology that was really becoming a part of mainstream music.

Anthony (02:24.287)

Yeah. Well it was you're right about all that. It was a little bit mysterious to most people. And it just as a kid it it the exposure to synthesizers is what kind of kept me kept me going, wanting to learn more and more about music. 'Cause there was just something about those instruments that I liked. And I mean I really liked the piano because of the expressivity, but

I for I don't know, back like I I don't have a problem practicing now and later on in life, but when I was a kid, I just wanted to play sports and I just did not wanna be sitting at the piano practicing. You know, I felt like that the the outside light was calling me to be active. And then when I heard the first synthesizer album, my first the first one I heard was switched on Bach. Then I thought, Well, what is that? I wanna play that thing.

And and I figured out a way, you know, I got a electronic organ and I was trying to make synth sounds on an organ, you know, like frying it through an amp, and just anything I could do to get those kinds of sounds. And then I finally figured out a way to get an ARP 2600 synth when I was in high school. And then I just read the owner's manual over and over and over. It's such a good owner's manual. I learned synthesis through that owner's manual.

And I had a a synth teacher that I would he kinda took me on on as a student. He was like one of the few people that was a session musician on synthesizers, playing on movie scores and record dates. And that's how it kinda how it happened for me because he was so busy doing it because of the mystery of it. Everyone wanted it to d had the sound somewhere on their album, you know. He was so busy he didn't want to turn anything down because there was make maybe one or two other people. He didn't

want him to get the job. So he sent me. Because I could do the gigs. But I was like, I couldn't even drive. I was like, my parents were driving me to the lessons. So they drove me the first session I ever did ever did was with Lamont Dozier, like of Holland Dozier Holland, you know, like the Motown, the number one writing and producing team from Motown. And I'm like sixteen years old, like doing a session.

Brian Funk (04:14.357)

Yeah. Nice.

Anthony (04:38.175)

And what an experience, you know, and then telling my friends, my sixteen year old friends, what I just did. And then he char he asked me to charge double scale on the union rate. And they're like, You're a kid and you're charging double scale. And I go, I have to. Because he didn't want you know them to hire me at single scale and stop hiring him. So anyway. But he was so generous. I mean, his this I should say Clark Spangler.

Brian Funk (04:38.557)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (04:56.823)

Hm. Yeah, right.

Anthony (05:06.219)

He's he was the one that kinda changed it for me and really motivated me and and then started getting me to like learn Bach organ works on synth and really play, you know, 'cause he was an organist by he was a church organist. That's how he fell into synths, 'cause it's kinda related. And then he I got serious, you know, and then got into a conservatory and college and really learned music, every everything I could possibly learn.

Brian Funk (05:36.341)

That's amazing to have somebody like that to pick up from and follow. And I I think it's so important for people listening now that might not be familiar because we can call up these presets. We have all this access to sounds just within a computer or DAW or even any modern synth you might pick up.

But you didn't have that in those days. So it was just this machine that how do you make it make the noise? How do you make it make the sound that we want to hear?

Anthony (06:07.371)

Well, you break it down. Yeah, and y and you learn about how sounds are constructed. You know, and it was that's how it was for me. Just everything I heard I broke down. And that's how I came up with my method. The think like a synth thing was just like I was learning to think like a synth all the way back then. And I developed this teaching method through my real life experience and that's that's the really the method that I've used for everything. Every film score

Every record that I played on, every T V commercial, whenever I created sounds with synthesizers, I just break down I it used to be like what I would hear, you know, but in that now it's like what I what's in my imagination. And I think that's kind of it. It's just you know, I dream of sounds and textures and stuff like that.

So it's not that hard when you break it down, because it's just small pieces. You know, like if you looked at a mixing console and it looks like this gigantic thing, but then you go, well, there's like thirty-two of them are the same. Then you just narrowed it down to the strip, and then you start focusing on the different parts of the strip, you know, and that's kind of what I do in my mind. I just kind of break it down into its components. So the the first course was think like a synth. The second one is

called bass DNA because I people always wanted to know like how did you make that bass sound, you know? And to me there's like a DNA of the bass sound. But almost everybody reaches for the filter. And that's not how I make bass sounds. I I create the oscillator configuration. That's the core of the bass sound. And then you filter that. And I think that's the missing piece why maybe someone's bass sounds thin.

Or doesn't deliver, you know, doesn't cut through or doesn't have a personality. And anyway, these are all the point of it is these things that just came from how I developed this system, you know, and it was a somewhat of a survival thing because I wanted to ha I wanted to work. So I had to have methods to put somebody would put a record on and go, I like this sound, make this. I was like, there's no one to turn to. There's no there's there was no method or anything.

Brian Funk (08:22.71)

Yeah, right.

Anthony (08:26.143)

So I just figured out, you know, I put all the pieces together and then it's great to share it though. And we're we're also at a university now. We're at Youngstown State University. It's taught there as an academic class for for college credit for units. And also this fall it will be at Young University of North Carolina, Greensboro. So yeah, hoping to get it in more and more colleges and in that was kind of my dream too, because in college they didn't really have like a legit pedagogy for synthesizers.

Brian Funk (08:45.178)

wow.

Anthony (08:55.415)

'Cause there's a lot to it. It's so important and there's ear training, like not just hearing timbre, but just no you know, knowing the harmonics and knowing how to hear the intervals so that you can create sounds using the overtone series. So you have to have good ears and then so I'm coming up with a course now an ear training course developing for musicians. So it's like it's music theory. It all comes rack around and then you're gonna learn orchestration, arranging, you know.

How to make your song better, how to clear out, leave space, breathe, phrasing, expression. This is all like neglected. But through synthesis, I think it's going to be a way for a new generation, I think, to learn all the really important building blocks of music that you learn in a conservatory. But through their songwriting and synthesis, because I just feel it. Like I know from talking to people, they keep wanting more. And more is going to lead to that.

theory, orchestration, counterpoint, arrangement, you know, and then it gets into the technical stuff, recording, mix, right? That's how I see it. And I'm I'm so excited. We're in a golden age.

Brian Funk (10:08.958)

It is a an exciting time to be getting into music at all. and that that's a really good point. When you think of ear training, I think people think mostly pitch and the instrument you might be learning that on, whether it's a voice or piano or something, is already making the sounds. But with synthesis you're really listening

to multiple frequencies within it. You're listening to fundamentals, like you said, overtones and what we're filtering out. But it's a much more complex kind of listening really to

Anthony (10:42.143)

It can be, yeah. It's the whole picture. It's it's three dimensional 'cause it's pitch, tamper, duration, volume. So, you know, you're you're listening to is first pitch is like is it a high pitch or is it a low pitch? This is like the basic. Tambre, is it bright or dull? Right? duration, is it long or short? Amplitude, is it loud or soft? And then you work into the nuance. You keep digging and keep digging into it.

Do I hear a harmonic? Do I hear a sub? Now you're creating the overtone series for that sound. And even even the rhythm is important, like short, but then ear training is also being able to hear rhythms and bring them back. Because with a synth, there's all kinds of things that are rhythmic, you know, sequences, and you can you can produce sound in variants of the beat, you know, and so you want to get your ear developed there.

So you can become a complete musician with these tools, I think, instruments.

Brian Funk (11:42.644)

Hmm. And it is nice that it's getting embraced by more traditional academic settings, like you're in the colleges now. I'm seeing that a lot in universities where electronic instruments are being embraced as the actual instrument of study. That it's really cool that you're getting into that. When you are talking about breaking down a sound.

Do you mind taking us through some of those little steps, some of the things? I know you you kinda mentioned like timbre and and frequencies and all that. but when you're when you're thinking that just I know this is what we're what you get into in the course a bit, but it's interesting to hear your approach when you you're gonna design the sound that you heard or that you're trying to create.

Anthony (12:18.271)

Mm-hmm. Sure.

Anthony (12:28.533)

Yeah. Well, I mean it's the the big four to me is pitch, timbre, duration, and volume. And you can pretty much create any sound with those four. So pitch is I'm I'm gonna listen to let's let's say what are we trying to make the sound of? A cricket. Okay, so what's the pitch? Is it low? Do crickets go, No, that's a frog.

Right. So now we're starting to distinguish what's the difference between a frog and a cricket. Well, one has a lower pitch, one has the other. That's not enough. But that's a good start. 'Cause if I don't get the pitch right, I'm gonna be fooling around with a lot of other things and it's not gonna get there. So your ear tells you that. So then you now it's like hi, well what's high? I mean there's and that's where like I would know where to go through experience and that's from practicing. Just like if you're a guitarist.

You know, you know you know what to do through experience, but you kind of get in the right realm quickly, right? So I'm gonna get in the right realm if I'm gonna be in high frequencies, high pitches. Okay, then we're gonna go to timbre. Well, what's the waveform of a cricket? Is it fluety? Is it bright like a guitar string or a violin? You know what's what's the characteristic of the sound of a cricket?

And then is it gonna be long or short? The notes of the per kick. You know, they're they're gonna be like, well, what I hear is there's amplitude to it. They pulse, they go in and out. Like you get volume increase and volume decrease, right? They go. So I'm starting to say, like, well, that's the duration, that's the shape. What's so then when you start to convert it into synth land, pitch

is frequency. So now you're starting to think like a synth. You're in in this world of humans, but you don't say pitch necessarily with a a synth, it thinks frequencies. So now you know how to convert pitch to frequency, you're thinking like a synth. And then you go into the timbre, same thing. That's waveform or that's filter frequency. At what frequency are we cutting off? At what what's the slope of the cutoff? Is it

Anthony (14:56.957)

6 dB per octave, is it 12 dB per octave? Is it 24 dB per db per octave? Is there a resonance to the sound? So as it's sloping down, are we emphasizing the cutoff frequency? Do we hear that? So you slowly you have to take these one at a time, right? Because I can start overwhelming with all these terms, but you just take them one at a time and then you listen to the cricket and you go, there is a little bit of a shape to it. It starts a little bit dull and then it gets bright as it pulses.

So not only does the volume pulse, but the timbre pulses. So it goes, yeah, it gets brighter. So if you get brighter at the right pitch and you pulse, now there's a few things missing. Right? I hear something else in the cricket because it's rubbing its legs together, right? To make the sound. So there's something that's non-pitched to it. So on a synth, if I'm gonna think like a synth, I'm gonna use a non-pitch thing like noise.

It just goes shh. But the cricket doesn't doesn't it just doesn't go shh. I gotta filter that noise. And I gotta bring it in. And what I notice is it's kind of irregular. So what I do is I modulate the pitch with a little bit of noise. So the pitch is not because the cricket doesn't sound like a machine, right? Its pitch kind of goes right. It's a little bit. So if I modulate the pitch with noise, which is irregular.

'Cause I understand that, you know, I and in the real world noise is just like wind. But you have a noise generator when you're thinking like a synth, you have a noise generator and you can modulate the pitch. So now when I get the sound to be at the right frequency, the right brightness, and the volume pulses, so the duration goes in and out, and you put that together and we're in the now we're in the ballpark. And you just keep going. So I'm trying to give you just like the one one.

And then what happens is sure enough, you're just walking around in the world hearing things. Like, you know, when you speak a language, you don't translate it. Like when I s if in Spanish I see a dog, I let's say I see a dog, I don't just think dog perro. If I speak Spanish, I just know perro. I just know that's the dog. So you start thinking like a synth, you know, and you can just like if you're a great orchestrator, you know, in the old school way, you know, you know.

Anthony (17:21.803)

how to put the orchestration together, you know, with strings, brass, woodwinds, percussion. You know how to do it. And you know the function of those things and how they work together. And that's the analogy. But I think through synthesis, we can have a whole generation that's going to be excited to like, you know, learn all this stuff and create music that's going to be deeper with the same level of expression as you know, an orchestra. Because that's that's our next step is expression. That's what I feel.

And then in my bass thing, bass CNA, I have a a separate little course on expression because I think that's so important. You know, what makes one guitarist or bass player different than the other is their personality. And it's just it comes through in the expression. It's something other people can feel. That's what I think. And that's what makes it interesting. So we want that in it, not just synthesizers that just are like sequenced to the click. Right? We want to have expression, personality.

Brian Funk (18:18.386)

Right.

Anthony (18:21.643)

You know, it's a real instrument. So that's what I'm trying to put together and I feel there's just a lot of enthusiasm right now. So I'm as long as there is, you know, wake up every day. Keep keep at it. It's like that two way streets going.

Brian Funk (18:40.778)

Mm-hmm. That's a great way to break it down and it's a fun example, the cricket too, because it is it's like a non it's not a musical instrument like we normally think of, but you're able to identify that it does have these musical properties to it, and you can recognize that just like you might with a piano and notice that it hits very loud and then it fades out and you're kind of identifying it that way.

Anthony (19:07.231)

Yeah, you're starting to think like it and and then the world becomes a symphony for you.

when you're hearing it, how all these these landscapes are put together when you go into a forest or if you go to the beach, there's a different landscape there. You got the noise of the the ocean that's undulating and in cycles and the seagulls that come through and all of it. It's like these beautiful they're like symphonic landscapes. And then you start to understand them. And it's like it's a beautiful thing. You know, it's the whole sound of the universe really that that can can come out you you can appreciate it in other words.

That that's the idea. You'll never really understand it.

Brian Funk (19:44.521)

Right. That's true. Now when you're talking about expression, are you thinking about maybe something like P E or other levels, different

Anthony (19:56.331)

For sure.

It's as simple as a wa pedal and a volume pedal, or not just setting a sound and then leaving it, like playing the keyboard and and moving the knobs. But yeah, MPE, I mean, there's like insane levels of expression that those things can deliver. Yeah, more nuanced. And I'm really excited about it. And new controllers besides keyboards. Yeah.

Brian Funk (20:26.814)

Yeah, I'm big into Ableton Live and Push Three, their grid controller. it has MPE pads and it is it's a lot of fun to be able to hold down, say, a pad and maybe just on one note. Slide your finger and the filter opens just on that one note. And everything else kind of stays its same, or you might be doing

Anthony (20:45.718)

Right.

Brian Funk (20:49.908)

pressure slightly differently with your fingers and just by laying your hands on it, you get so much expression that really couldn't do as or I definitely can't do on a keyboard myself. I'm I come from playing guitar, so that's I don't have the chops.

Anthony (20:58.625)

Yeah.

Anthony (21:07.945)

Yeah. And guitar's a big advantage. The the perception of pitch is is you mean even though it's fretted, you can bend the string and get a lot of the in-between stuff and that's what makes certain players have different personality. The keyboard most of these keyboards are fixed pitch. And your pitch perception is kind of everything. That's that's like one of the most exp 'cause we humans we know if somebody's really happy with us or sad like how they deliver the the word with pitch.

So I think that's another big step forward with synths is having these controllers that can have more variable pitch in them, like you're like you're talking about, you know, with the push. Cause you can also do that. You can and also just one of the notes in a chord or you know, like a string quartet. They don't just lock in like a piano on it. They they find the note. You know, that's there's a thing to that, the feel.

Brian Funk (21:57.599)

Right. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. It's s sometimes with keys it's just dink. We're like right there, all together. And to be able to almost bring the notes, th the voices of even a single instrument like they were separate instruments together opens up so many doors.

Anthony (22:22.698)

No, you s that's really perfectly sad. Like they're separate instruments. That's and that's kind of emulating something that's been really expressive and a beautiful thing, you know, like having four people in a string quartet. But when you're playing string pads like like you're doing on on push, you start to feel that, that they're they're separate now. They they c they can move together, but they can move separately. And that's our ear picks that up.

Brian Funk (22:50.538)

Hm. I think so. I think that's something we like is a little chaos, little randomness that 'cause for me when I first started working in a computer, I came from like using four tracks and things like that and wishing I could play on time perfectly and wishing I could sing and pitch. And then when we got the computer and some of the new technologies we quantize it, we can auto tune it. It was right, but it didn't feel right.

Anthony (23:10.252)

Mm-hmm.

Anthony (23:20.566)

Yeah, I mean I I think we like that like in life some tension and release. You know, that's part of storytelling. You you gotta be on the edge of your seat and then and then you let go. And I think we like we like that journey.

Brian Funk (23:35.622)

I can see from some of the materials you have on YouTube and also the little clips and stuff that I've seen on the courses that you get into that a lot. You're not just you're not talking about it in as as almost as a technical way as I almost thought you would. 'Cause

Anthony (23:54.508)

Ha ha.

Brian Funk (23:55.878)

I you know, like like here's the filter and we're gonna cut down the frequency to one K. Like I don't I didn't hear you say that even once. The numbers never really came up. It was more like listen, it's like a mouth. It's like a voice, it's like breath here or it's it's a cool way to look at it 'cause sometimes we c and on the screen too, when you see the numbers, you see the pitch, the frequency, you can get caught up in like one point two K needs this and not really feeling it.

Anthony (24:26.45)

So true. I mean, I'm glad you y you picked that up. Yeah, you you assign the numbers and the metrics afterward. That's not music is thinking, you know, you you you have to keep your mind on the flow and the feelings and and keep emptying it so that new things could come in. So if you're dwelling on numbers, your like mind is on a number and it's just like I c I don't w really work in a DAW alm almost never. I don't record. I mean I I just have

I've been fortunate, but I mean I've always worked this way 'cause it came from the old days with an engineer. So I never look at the screen. Cause I start the music starts I see the grid and then I see the waveforms and all this, and then I start getting affected by it. So I just want to stay in my imagination where it's just like black and just keep emptying out. You know, that's I think so I can be ready to receive the new it the new things to be inspired, you know. So yeah, I don't

But I'm not that technical. I'm not really computer savvy or anything. I just I fell into synths from a a music and imagination place and I stayed there. And so that's you're picking up on that. I mean we we we kind of all need to go back and forth a little bit, but I think there's a f I'm I'm sensing this from so many comments and because you know, we we get a ton of comments and stuff.

There's seems to be this there's definitely a romantization of the old days of working, which was not always as great as you romanticize it, you know. People got screwed out of money and there was all kinds of they make it sound like it was all amazing and everything that came out of it was like the best thing in the world, you know, live tracking and there was some garbage, you know, like we only see the good stuff. But I think there is a lot of desire though to like not be alone all the time.

Brian Funk (26:04.809)

Yeah.

Anthony (26:20.128)

And to collaborate more and to get the feeling like of a tracking date. You know, we're y it's exciting and you get nervous. And that comes out, right? And then you get one and you just know it and everybody knows it. It's like when you score a film and you got certain music comes together with picture and everyone knows it. Like there's a lot of functional stuff. It's like, yeah, picture can be enhanced by having sound with it, right? Probably the most important thing.

Like sound you don't necessarily need picture. But picture can really benefit, you know, when you're just looking at like let's say Jaws or something with no sound. I don't know, it's not that scary. There's just a lot of things like and I think there's a desire now for people to get that kind of magic experience when they're creating music. 'Cause there's so much just working alone. Or you're now AI AI is your new assistant and friend or something, you know, but it's like kind of self indulgent too. I mean

Brian Funk (27:00.221)

Right.

Anthony (27:19.158)

And I use all this stuff, but that's what I get in a lot of the comments. Like, and I'm going, well, just do it. Just call your friend. I mean, we're in the age of connectivity, right? You can connect way better, way better. You can even do virtual sessions with anyone in the world. But you still have like people just keep falling into, like, they're in the dark, they don't go outside, they just get on the computer and they start, I'm I'm writing. It's like, okay.

Brian Funk (27:31.955)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (27:46.345)

Yeah.

Anthony (27:46.435)

There's no pencil, there's no paper, you're just like you in a computer and a and a grid. You know, so you know, that's what I'm feeling. And I just keep telling people, try it. Just if you wanna do it, you're saying you wanna do it, get out of the the the box for a second. Then when you come back in, you'll have a new perspective, maybe. I don't know, what do you think about that? Doop do you sense that or

Brian Funk (28:10.309)

I I agree, yeah. I mean, we are kinda isolated in the age of connection, right? Where music used to be you had to play with other people to play music. You had to interact and I grew up that way playing in bands and little by little I got to do more and more recording and then the next thing you know, like everything I'm doing is by myself and there was some fun in that because I guess

you know, you get to be the dictator and you get to have those parts played exactly the way you wanted them to be played and not have to deal with someone that has a different idea and won't do it your way, but

Now as I've gotten older and had that time to be alone and get my way, I love getting together with other people and hearing how they're gonna interpret it. And sometimes it's wildly different than what I wanted, but it makes me then go to a new place as well. It triggers something that never would have been triggered in me, a new decision, a new path. And

Anthony (29:11.67)

Yeah. Well yeah. And you can mix and match any of these things. You can do that and then come back to your your cave and screw with it. I mean, that's just so many options now. But I kind of love it when, you know, somebody like you said, they take it somewhere maybe I didn't think of, but then if you're at if you're live, you can steer it back. And it's interesting how you're listening to it and it's coming back not your way, but it's like

Brian Funk (29:19.954)

Yeah.

Anthony (29:41.175)

the combination of what you gave them and what they did, now it's coming back to you. And then you can send out another signal and then they're gonna respond to it. You know, and then you bring more people into it. And it it just you can't predict it's the unpredictability is really appealing to me. But then I still I still use all this technology. I'll bring it back too. I'll say, Great guys I mean I I think that's how Daft Punk did that

That last album, the the live one, just

Brian Funk (30:11.088)

Yeah, random access memories, right?

Anthony (30:14.166)

Yeah, they'd like recorded all this great stuff. Some of the some of them with the gut people together, sometimes even the drums are like all by themselves. You know, I've heard Omar Hakeem say I just played drum beat to a click and then I heard the song on the radio. It's like But they experiment with these kinds of ideas of you know, the I don't even know if they're two worlds. It's really a continuum. We don't have to look at it as two worlds. It's not. There's all kinds of in between.

Brian Funk (30:28.816)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (30:38.662)

Hmm. Right.

Brian Funk (30:45.628)

Yeah, absolutely. yeah, I I feel that way about even analog digital kind of debate people find themselves in. it's nice that we have this we can dip into anyone we want at any time, mix and match. No sides need to be taken.

Anthony (31:03.404)

Yeah. yeah. I know it gets kinda it c I I I've for the first time started embracing MIDI. For the first time. I I didn't use MIDI until like a few years ago for anything. Yeah, I didn't like it. It wasn't

Brian Funk (31:19.612)

Really?

I've seen you using Doctor Click, I think is is his name. Yeah.

Anthony (31:25.238)

Yeah, that's not yeah, not MIDI. It's just I used to use I just use gates, triggers, and control voltages. That's all I've ever done. No MIDI, and I just play the keyboards. I can play, so I just play and it does what I want. But once expression like MIDI was like the the delivery format for higher level of expression, it got my ear. And now I'm getting into it because there's some MIDI instruments, there's some MIDI software.

That allows me to be really expressive in real time and and I'm helping develop some of this stuff. And I'm really excited. That's back to what you're saying about MPE and expression. That's it's driving me. And so I'm gonna probably end up in front of a doll a lot more often. but I don't have to put it on a grid. I don't I'm not I'm not there. Cause I don't I don't hear music that way. You know, you know, and I

Brian Funk (32:16.72)

Right.

Anthony (32:24.384)

I played on a lot of dance tracks, so I'm not saying, but I I try not to look at the screen when I do. I just I just want to feel the lock. That's that's that's kind of where I where I'm coming from. but I am gonna be in front of a doll more often, and I and I like what MIDI can do now. It's so ironic because I I think of all the things I always thought of it as MIDI hell, where where stuff didn't work and people are like I I imagine like seeing people bent over.

Brian Funk (32:34.632)

Right.

Anthony (32:53.9)

Like behind stuff. Just Yes. That's that's what my my imagination like for MIDI was. Following tracing cables. Like, why doesn't this work? But you know, it's a little bit

Brian Funk (32:55.664)

Right, following the wires and cables and

Brian Funk (33:03.622)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:08.658)

Yeah, that there's there's a element of that to modern music production, just why isn't it making the sound? And then you take out your acoustic guitar and it feels like a futuristic technology 'cause I didn't have to charge it, I didn't have to plug it in. Yeah.

Anthony (33:17.388)

Exactly.

Anthony (33:21.421)

Yeah.

Exactly. It feels futuristic. It's 'cause but but fortunately I think it's way more streamlined and it's smooth now and we've it's kind of antiquated the way I'm looking at it. It doesn't have to not work. It it can work and it can be reliable, as reliable as anything. So I'm yeah, I'm just real excited about all the stuff that's that's going on and and we're talking about the core part of it is the actual creation part of it. You know, that's

I don't know about all the business and just seems like it's never great. Like I don't I don't glorify the business of the past. People like there's so many things about how bad the business is and you gotta sell t shirts to survive. But I mean I don't know. I knew a lot of musicians that didn't survive then either, and they made a lot of money for the record label. Now you have a chance you can be in control of your own destiny a little bit more. And if you sell the shirt you get the money. You know, it's like it's just a different flavor of struggle.

For an artist.

Brian Funk (34:24.59)

Yeah, it's true. Yeah, there's no shortage of those horror stories of bad contracts and people never you know, you would think would be on top of the world for what they did and never got there. Yeah.

Anthony (34:37.964)

Yeah, and then they're they're broke after, you know, the last album.

That was not that uncommon. Yeah, there were there were like the smart ones. But it wasn't just like set up where everybody could be kind of okay and you didn't have to be a smart one to figure out how to have s any money left in the end. Yeah. And

Brian Funk (34:55.816)

Yeah. Yeah. You didn't get deceived and cheated.

Anthony (35:04.524)

Yeah, or or or make unhealthy choices, you know. That that happened too, 'cause it's the struggle led to just you know, I don't know, frustration or turning to drugs or turning to not taking care of yourself. You know. We have everything now, the technology to to do all that, to be healthy and take care of yourself and

create on the spot, create by yourself, create with other people, connect with other people, instruments that can for very little money, you know, do amazing things. And now we have computers that are, you know, little Raspberry computers for thirty-five bucks and you can make them do what you want. And then we have artificial intelligence and then we're on the verge of artificial creativity. Like I don't know what that's gonna do. I mean the people I'm talking to about that are just

you know, boggling my mind with what it can do. Brain to brain connection, instantaneous that back and forth that I'm saying it just happens like in a nanosecond.

Brian Funk (36:10.482)

Yeah.

Well, one thing I'm not too worried about with all that, and I th I think you embody this in a lot of your teaching. you love making the sound, you love creating it, you love the experience of doing it's not just that you wanna get there.

Anthony (36:30.666)

No. Yeah.

Brian Funk (36:31.484)

Right, you like getting there, the journey of it. And that doesn't seem like something that can really be manufactured for us. I like creating the song and struggling through it and producing it and even the stuff that gets frustrating and difficult and frust you know, all that. There there's definitely like a hard, difficult side to it all. But

That's part of the fun too. It's the challenge. It's it's the puzzle that you're solving. It's not always just I want this song to be done. I want this thing to be produced, product, whatever.

Anthony (37:08.61)

Well, that's often the problem is the artist doesn't even finish. You just stay in it for the forever song. But totally the proof of concept is like then even when you do finish and you're done, then you just do another one. You just you know, and I I know so many people they don't even like listen, they might tour it, but then they don't really they just want to move on and do do it again. Like what you said is the you know, it's like the forest gump part where he just keeps running.

Brian Funk (37:12.902)

Yeah, it's true. Right. You can't yeah.

Brian Funk (37:36.252)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Anthony (37:36.749)

Just you just want to be out there running, you know, and that that's what it is. I want to be in the sun, doing it. Like literally, I mean, I like being in the real sun, but it's like this is a different kind of sun where you're you're feeling that same brightness that you get, you know, like that rush of energy that you get when you're in the sun and vitamin D and everything. There's a like a moment of creativity.

you know, you get. And it is kind of like the sun because you can only take so much of it too. And then you need rest. You need shade. Yeah. I see it all connected. You know, the whole universe thing with the sounds and the cycles and the groove of a song. And I mean, i i I think it really is on a continuum. And we're able to see it better now with the technology. We're seeing it for the first time 'cause we can graph it and

Brian Funk (38:13.583)

That's good point. Yeah. Yeah.

Anthony (38:33.868)

you're s starting to see like the inside of an atom looks the same as something else. Like you you do a close up and it's like, my gosh, that looks like notes or something. It's all kind of coming together. So I mean, I guess that's for the for the learning part. But for the experiential part, like you know, what you said, that's just a feeling. You just do it and you figure out the numbers later.

Brian Funk (38:58.969)

Mhm. I like that approach. sometimes I find myself getting overly technical and a thing I like to do lately is if I do a lot of sound design inside of Ableton Live and you can build your instrument racks with your macro controls and

You could name it frequency, you know, filter frequency or resonance. but I I like naming them abstract things. You know, like well just maybe like fog. That's this is this knob is called Yeah, yeah. So like when you're programming the instrument, you might be connecting a filter and a reverb to one macronob.

Anthony (39:27.456)

Really? Tell me about that.

Anthony (39:33.023)

Rename it?

Brian Funk (39:42.866)

But rather than call it like f low cut filter reverb or something, call it like amnesia or or you know, purple dragon. Something just to make it abstract. So like kinda like you said, you're you're doing it with your mind, you're doing it with your imagination and not the screen or the numbers as much.

Anthony (39:51.244)

I love it.

Anthony (40:07.16)

I mean, that was Quincy to the T. He would just say this stuff sometimes just to mess with you, just to get you out of anything. Like if if you were like new to the whole scene with him, to get you out of like, you know, well, what are you looking for? What do you want? 'Cause he wanted you to bring your imagination to the thing. He'd go, I'm looking for something really blue.

And then yeah, after you worked with him for a while, you cut we're like, okay, you're gonna let me do what I wanna do. You know, you want my best thing. You want some but then then there are be other words that there would be a thing to it. Or you'd watch his hand and he'd be like, I want something kind of like a mm. So I'm like, he wants an emphasis on the four. You know, and you start, but it's like you can't define it anyway. You know, you could define it afterward, you could analyze it.

But before, like when somebody's trying to tell you how to be, it's pretty hard to describe it. So you just it's better. I it's like a legal contract. The more specific you try to be, kinda sometimes the worse the contract is. Like the best contracts sometimes are just the most general thing. Like you can't come here ever. That's a great contract. You know, there's no all these nuances, you know. Yeah.

Brian Funk (41:29.063)

No gray area. Yeah.

Anthony (41:31.158)

Yeah, takes out that whole legal whenever how many times I heard a an attorney say gray area? I'm like, dude, I'm not paying you to tell me everything's a gray area. But yeah, that's I think I l I love what you're doing. I think that's you gotta do that as much as possible. And visualize it. Yeah, you'll get way better sounds and 'cause you're not looking at numbers when you're moving the fog button.

Brian Funk (41:55.984)

Right. Yeah, you're just listening for that emotion to happen. That that feeling. Yeah. I think theory can be like that too, yeah. the I'm going to the four, to the five, to the flat seven you know, like you can really get technical about that kind of thinking too, whereas this chord is sad.

Anthony (42:01.431)

Yeah, how foggy do you want it? Yeah. I can't see versus

Brian Funk (42:22.843)

that's sometimes just a much more important word to use. Go here, 'cause it this is this has like a melancholy to it.

Anthony (42:28.94)

For sure.

Anthony (42:33.814)

Yeah, and and if you're just like all the the sevenths and ninths and the flat sevenths and the sharp ninth and all this, like all it really is is a basic structure and then there's a melody moving across the top too. So then you don't have to name it like all those different things. It's just that you could have just a triad with a seventh, but then the ninth and the eleventh and the thirteenth are just like how the melody moves across it.

So you don't really name them. It's like, there's a tension note moving to a resolve note. And you can analyze it later. You know, for sure there's really huge value in analyzing it later. No doubt. And then you can convey that to somebody else and then they could play what you did. But when you're doing it, if you're just thinking in the melody and you're not thinking like, I'm doing this thing with flat nines, it's like, I don't care. I just want to can I sing that back? I mean, what's that?

Brian Funk (43:29.019)

Hmm. Yeah.

Anthony (43:30.06)

That's my I don't know. I just look at it I'm trying to find an analogy like not giving numbers and metrics while you're playing. Yeah, just just it's more just about pitch, timbre, duration, volume. You know, and in musical terms it's like bass, chords and melody, you know.

Brian Funk (43:51.939)

Yeah, there's almost some parallel to when if you listen to maybe like a communication expert explaining like how to talk to someone you're close with in a relationship, techniques you can do, technical things, but really what you're trying to do is create the emotion and it's hard to

Tap into that stuff, those technical approaches, while you're actually present and feeling what's going on.

Anthony (44:22.454)

Yeah, but you that's great that like what you just said, I totally relate to that because one of the top simple communication techniques is mirroring. And when you're in music, if you're just playing with somebody, if you mirror what they do, they're almost always going to look at you and smile. Because you just communicated. They know they were heard and understood. And you do these techniques, it's really huge. You all of a sudden now the person's gonna want to mirror you.

Brian Funk (44:41.658)

Right.

Yeah.

Anthony (44:51.596)

Which means in order to mirror you, what do they have to do? They have to listen to you. So now you have two people in the same room that are ac 'cause sometimes musicians get together and they just start playing. Give me a groove. Okay. Yeah. At the same time. You gotta listen to two things at once or you know, and then you might start to do a back and forth before you know it. And they're like like you said, they're not now at the same time. They're it just goes there though. That's

Brian Funk (45:01.432)

Mm-hmm. At the same time. But not together. Yeah.

Anthony (45:19.072)

Great though, like you're saying relationship things, it it's a continuum. It it applies. Like good music is good communication. Then the audience feels it. The audience starts smiling, you know, when they see the musicians actually talking to each other. Usually

Brian Funk (45:37.851)

Hmm. Yeah, that you like seeing them have fun together. You you wanna that's an it that's a contagious energy and when you're playing music you're putting out incredible energy. Usually a loud volume where it's almost the only thing you can pay attention to. I think that stuff translates. Obviously it does, yeah.

Anthony (45:57.512)

Yeah, it does.

Brian Funk (46:01.242)

Now, I have to ask you, like, I mean, you were working, if we take you to the thriller days, I mean you were here you are working with one of the most successful musical collaborations ever, Michael Jackson, Quincy Jones. I mean, are you seeing do you see these things and in those types of interactions when you're working, when you're just observing? anything lessons that stood out to you?

Anthony (46:31.852)

Well yes. Yeah, it kinda had all that in it. Like I mentioned the Quincy part, like image image image thinking and Michael was all about that. I mean his strongest communication tool with me was his movement, 'cause he was a dancer and watching his body move. He was always moving. You know, he was really young then and he was just always moving, like beautifully moving and

And you can you you you would always want to keep that happening in the room. Like he he was just working on a different level. It wasn't always about words. So but also was a it was a time where like there was kind of the best specialist at every aspect of the music. You know, Rod Temperton was a great composer and arranger. So he was there like arranging, you know, like this goes here, this goes there, we need this. Michael was there vibing on.

The big picture, the message, you know, all his writings, like he would write about who he wanted to be and what he wanted to say and what the song really meant. And it was the age of the advent of of MTV, you know, and and visual music, and which is one of the reasons I was there coming from film. So it was like a lot of a coming together, but it's kind of a lot of the stuff we talked about. It's core at

Great music creation and communication of that, you know, to to an audience, to others. But he they kept that so that that communication was internal too, between the arranger, the rhythm section, the producer, the artist. There was that communication, you know, where one person would speak, everyone would listen, vibe off of it, come together. Quincy kept the happy part, like you're saying, the

kept it kind of in line. It it it takes that consciousness. Those guys had that consciousness. That's the strongest thing probably. It it from Michael and Quincy. Rod was a different beast, you know, cigarettes and coffee, you know, ashtrays and just like late nights and just just getting these incredibly inspired things out. But Quincy would reel it all in and see the big vision with Michael. But you ha you have that.

Anthony (49:01.716)

So I think yeah, if you want to get to that level, you gotta think like that a little bit. Or it just is just if you're just built that way and then you don't have to, it just but not everybody is because it's so many hats for one person. That's crazy. Like that's why Michael could be Michael, because he didn't have to do like an artist today has to do way too many things. He could focus on his dancing and singing. He was like getting vocal coaching in the day.

while we were working and then he would do vocals at night. But if he had to deal with the Daw and MIDI and keeping all this and calling musicians and then figuring on what they're gonna play and sitting with them and like, how do you focus on being the that level of artist? You know, he he needed time, like I said, to be in the shade where he could just close his eyes. You if you're in the sun like the whole time, you're gonna overheat. You can't. It's just an overload and it's just or you're just gonna

Stuff's gonna suffer. Does that make any sense what I'm saying? I'm getting a little abstract but

Brian Funk (50:04.939)

no, I love it. It it makes a lot of sense and actually the more abstract stuff it feels more applicable, I guess. because we it's more of a like you're saying, a big picture thing too, where I'm kind of thinking a little bit about how

Anthony (50:14.604)

Good. Good.

Brian Funk (50:27.881)

the goal sometimes when I play with my friends with in my band, it's not so much to get the part my part right or my thing or my idea. The real goal is to keep playing music together. To keep it going. So this this stuff makes a lot of sense and if yeah, a lot of modern people and if you're at home

producing music even, you are wearing a lot of hats. You're doing a lot of different jobs where you're speaking about a time where we had the best of the best in each one of those hats that a person today might be trying to wear all of them.

Anthony (51:08.886)

Yeah.

Anthony (51:12.662)

It's a big ask. I have so much respect for these artists that can emerge and really put something great together and they do a lot of it themselves. They're incredible. You know, and we've evolved just like pro athletes, you know, like the baseball players are way better now than they were. They're throw you know, the musicians are way better now than they were. I know people don't think that, but they can do like the artists, let me put it that way, the artists

Brian Funk (51:14.618)

Yeah.

Anthony (51:42.189)

Maybe not the musicians, because the the you know, a sevent you know, eighteenth century virtuoso like Franz Liszt, there's not a lot of those. There were more of those back then, where they just only practiced they all they did was play the instrument. That's it. Nothing else in their life, you know. But the artist now is way more developed. There was no like artist like that now where they can do everything and sing, dance.

act, they know visuals, they communicate lifestyle, they communicate like you know, there's so much that like people that follow them can can buy into about them. The whole image and view of the world and all that. That's that's evolved a lot right now. But then, you know, if you still want it like how's that guy gonna put down like a screaming bass part or something?

Too much. It's just too big of an ask. It's like we kn we all need each other still. We haven't we haven't AI'd our way out of that yet.

Brian Funk (52:46.263)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a good point because it does put a lot of pressure on people. And you did mention it is nice now that we have some control over it, right? Like you said you sell the shirt, you get to keep the money, but you had to also design it and print it and have it sent down. Yeah. Yes. Right.

Anthony (53:05.27)

Yeah, it's exactly now you're a shirt designer. You're a graphic designer. And then you know how to use Canvas. I mean it's like getting ridiculous. It's like how many apps do I need to know? I mean, I wanna go deeper into one, not just be like like horizontal on a five hundred apps and you know, and then have to buy all these subscriptions. This is draining your your profits. You know, that's

Brian Funk (53:14.702)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (53:31.169)

I would bet that was probably worked for you, right? Like getting started with synthesis, right? Like you didn't have twenty seven synthesizers and fifty two plugins and all of that, right? I mean you you

Anthony (53:43.033)

I had this one. That's it. This is the same one. That's the ARP twenty six hundred. It's the same one. And I spent all my time on it for years and years and years and years, all the way to now. So it's still the one I know the best. It's my main instrument. It's got speakers in it. I don't need anything. I don't need an amp. Remember it's funny, we used to have to have amps to play synths. We didn't people didn't have a home studio when we

Brian Funk (53:47.791)

That's the R.

Anthony (54:12.034)

had a synth back then. You need an amp. Nobody uses an amp anymore, but it's like it's a it synths sound great through amps. They're they're designed to to go through amps. I mean they can go through

Brian Funk (54:13.796)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:23.375)

Were you guys micing these synths back in these days? Or yeah, okay, so not necessarily direct. Yeah. That's something I've gotten into a lot recently is sending my a my synths through my guitar amps.

Anthony (54:27.68)

If you went through an amp you did. But most of the time they would want to go straight in, you know, so yeah.

Brian Funk (54:40.959)

I I really like the I I don't know what it is, but it might just be the physical movement of air being picked up by a microphone, where sometimes things can sound a little flat if it's only inside the computer and never got out.

Anthony (54:41.035)

yeah, do it.

Anthony (54:57.078)

Yeah. Nothing wrong with that though.

Yeah. Hey Brian, we should wrap it because we're the team is like I was telling you the team I this is really great. I you're really I'm enjoying it a lot. I mean I I love where we went.

Brian Funk (55:04.889)

Yeah. Sounds good. I know you got some things.

Brian Funk (55:15.961)

Thanks. I I mean this is a real treat to speak to you. I appreciate it very much. You've you know shaped our world with your sounds and I love that you're sharing it and I love that I had a f the little time with you to ask specific questions. it's it's been a treat. So I'll make sure people know to go check out Think Like a Synth and Base DNA and your YouTube. anywhere else you wanna let people know they should head.

Anthony (55:45.368)

I mean that's the basic right now is where the course. I mean I could have Selena send you some if you can use any images or anything, that would definitely help us. You know, we the reason I mean we it helps us survive, you know, with so we can keep doing it. You know, so that's Thanks so much. No, you're you know, you're you're way too kind with all that. But yeah, well let's stay in touch. I I really love the conversation. I'd like to

Brian Funk (56:00.857)

Right. Yes. And I I want you to keep doing it. So we'll get out there. Yeah.

Anthony (56:12.086)

know deeper, you know, what what you're up to in your stuff. You just just keep in touch. It's great what you're doing. I I it's awesome. Thank you so much though for this opportunity too. You know, we your audience is great and and you know, let's connect with ours. Let's

Brian Funk (56:17.549)

Absolutely.

Brian Funk (56:22.553)

Yeah, thank you.

Brian Funk (56:28.897)

Absolutely. We'll definitely talk more. Thank you very much and thank you everyone for listening.

Anthony (56:35.331)

My pleasure. Yeah, okay. See ya soon.

]]>Think Like a Synth with Anthony Marinelli - Music Production Podcast #434Writing a Song in 2 Hours with Ben Burnes - Music Production Podcast 433podcastBrian FunkMon, 14 Sep 2026 09:00:16 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/ben-burnes-552b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6aa56f8852c2123bae997449Ben Burnes is a musician, producer, and game developer. He is the author of the new book How to Write a Song in Two Hours, based off his experience writing over 400 songs in weekly two-hour sprints.

Ben is back for his fifth conversation! We spoke about his new book and some of the wisdom he picked up writing songs in two hours. We covered practical techniques and philosophical approaches, and we also got to meet a few of his five cats.

Get How to Write a Song in Two Hours by Ben Burnes:

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Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:02.458)

Right, welcome back. Ben Burns. I think you have the title, The Most Appearances.

Ben Burnes (00:04.983)

Hey

Ben Burnes (00:09.656)

Well, I did get an early start, so that helps. But I mean it's always great to be back here. It's always great to be back and I mean, we kinda have an un unofficial rule that we get together one every one hundred episodes or so and and just kind of chat and catch up and stuff. And it's always good to be on here and and and talk with you and I've been listening to more of your podcasts lately because I've started getting on RSS feeds again. And it's like such a good way to get off of algorithms but still stay connected to people. So I I put a lot of podcasts on there so I can

Brian Funk (00:12.804)

Yes, the first guest.

Brian Funk (00:22.501)

Mm-hmm.

Ben Burnes (00:40.098)

You know, catch up with people and, you know, s try to be social.

Brian Funk (00:40.292)

Mm.

Brian Funk (00:44.208)

Well yeah, we do tend to do this about every hundred episodes, but there's another reason for that. And it's no small thing. You've got a new book. You're an author.

Ben Burnes (00:52.366)

Yes, there is. Yeah. Yeah. I do. I have a new I have a new book. I it's very weird to say that, you know, I am an author even though, you know, you are. I mean, even as a musician, right? It's like you release an album, it's like technically, yes, I am a musician now, but I don't feel like s like I don't feel like I am. But yeah, so I I wrote a book called How to Write a Song in Two Hours because that has been kind of something that I've been doing for the last ten years and I

Brian Funk (01:02.896)

I feel the same way.

Ben Burnes (01:20.332)

wanted to distill all of that information down into a tiny tiny book. And I I really love small books. I mention I think I've mentioned Derek Sivers in the past and like his his like his hard books, hardcover books are like super tiny, but they're really, really they're really informative and he gets right to the point and I love that. And I wanted to kinda emulate that with a the idea of just like how to how to power through some of the friction

that being creative tends to have, especially if you do it on a schedule or like doing it with timers or through challenges or anything else, right? Like so it was it was it was a really fun way for me to to kind of figure out all of this stuff and distill it down into into something that's a little bit more consumable. because you know expecting people to watch

four hundred hours of me streaming or whatever, just to kinda get an idea of it. It's it's like that's not ex you know, you can't expect anybody to do that.

Brian Funk (02:25.347)

Yeah, that's something I've always been really impressed about, what you do. the discipline, you know, to every I think it's is it Sundays or do you have a different day 'cause Sundays didn't work for you? Right.

Ben Burnes (02:35.11)

I I tend to do Wednesdays. However, I I should say, I think in twenty fourteen I stopped doing the weekly challenges. so I'm not really officially doing the two hour track challenge anymore. That like project is over, but I'm still doing the weekly songs. I'm still trying to write stuff fairly frequently. and I I mean we just finished the the community two hour album challenge that that happens every quarter.

the theme this time around was frozen and that was a that was a lot of fun. As always there was some really cool submissions and it was it was a good time to to actually do a two hour track challenge again too because it's not something I do all the time now.

Brian Funk (03:16.653)

Yeah, I think that's such a cool way to schedule the creativity and kinda treat it like a job and a ta like the task. Not to sound like we're taking the fun out of it, but it's very easy to sit around and wait for inspiration and not ever do anything because it doesn't quite arrive at the right time when you're available to actually do something.

Ben Burnes (03:24.631)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (03:40.045)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I I think that that's really that's really part of the whole experience, right? Like it's it's not necessarily something that you want to do right now, but it's something that you really should do to keep up your, you know, skill set to sharpen your knives or whatever you want to call it, right? Like

In the book I call it going to the gym. It's not necessarily something that you want to do every week, but it's something that you should do. And usually once you're there and you get warmed up and moving and all that other stuff, you're like, Yeah, I'm glad I came here, even though it kind of sucks to get here. So it's it's it w it's yeah, there's just a lot of stuff like that in the book that I that I go into where it's just like, you know, sometimes creativity isn't really fun to get started, but once you get going and you get like kind of immersed in the ideas and trying to move forward with it, it's it's that's where all the fun is.

Brian Funk (04:11.693)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (04:28.545)

So yeah.

Brian Funk (04:31.053)

Yeah, I think maybe when we're young or when we first started out, we're just excited to see what we can do and try it out. But there does come a point where s I guess maybe 'cause we start having expectations of making something of quality. So it's a little more scary because I don't know if it's gonna turn out any good. I there's so many other things that are very predictable that you can just do and they get done.

Ben Burnes (04:36.494)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (04:45.613)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (04:51.734)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well hey, this cat's fighting. Just a second. What was that?

Brian Funk (05:00.355)

This is a this is a very Ben interruption. yeah. No. Alright, so I speaking of your cats, I've counted now four different cats in the frame. You got five? Okay. So some territorial

Ben Burnes (05:04.888)

I don't know if you heard that in the background, I'm sorry.

Ben Burnes (05:13.666)

We have five. Yep. Yeah, we have five total. I'll I'll introduce them if they get close enough to grab. But whenever I start talking and whenever like they hear people talking, they start going crazy. Like we have a we have an exercise wheel over in the corner over there and Trevor loves to just run on it whenever I'm in meetings at work or whenever I'm, you know, streaming or whatever. So yeah, that's that's just the cats. So that

Brian Funk (05:36.931)

Mm-hmm.

Ben Burnes (05:43.436)

That's Tycho. Yeah, hi Tycho. Yeah, everybody's everybody's all amped up amped now.

Brian Funk (05:43.523)

Yeah, that's cool.

Brian Funk (05:49.645)

Yeah, they're excited to be here.

Ben Burnes (05:51.118)

That was that was Tycho and Tito, I believe. Yeah. Sorry, I was talking to my wife. Yeah. No, and like one of the one of the nice things going back to the community challenge is that it actually benefits Angel of Hope, which is where I don't know if he's still in frame for the crop, but Tyco, we got Tyco we got Taiko through Angel of Hope. And a couple other ones. Yeah. Yeah, it's and like

Brian Funk (06:05.827)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I see him.

Brian Funk (06:11.597)

Yeah, that's a really cool thing you guys do.

Ben Burnes (06:16.576)

It's it's a it's a more interesting way to like get people engaged instead of just like, Hey, let's write a song. It's like let's write a song for charity, right? Like it's just the that extra layer that that really makes things like keeps keep people coming back. And I I think that not only for my own, you know, motivation, it's nice to have a lot of other people to work with on an album and and to to make something together. So

Brian Funk (06:44.099)

Yeah, there's you know, you're kind of really doing this for yourself. Like for the most part. I mean, maybe you get lucky, you get some work or you pe you get some fans that want to hear it, but really most of the time you're doing it for yourself and sometimes when you find a way to make it have purpose beyond yourself, I it gets

Ben Burnes (06:49.773)

Yes.

Brian Funk (07:08.467)

It's inspiring, I guess. like for one you're helping out this cause or even if you're writing a song for somebody, it takes you out of it. Your artistic integrity and like vision sometimes is a little heavy to deal with. So some other purpose can be nice.

Ben Burnes (07:09.719)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (07:17.998)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (07:23.478)

Yeah. Yeah, it becomes more collaborative. And I've been I've been trying to do some more collaborative stuff just generally lately. for that specific reason where it's just like it's less all on me, right? Like I'm working with other people, I'm trying to I'm trying to figure out new things and and usually I learn things throughout that process because you know, everybody has a different experience, a different way to approach how to make the same thing.

And it's it's been a lot of fun. there was actually it's not out yet, but I I did a a collaborative album with a streamer buddy of mine, super cool. That's S L S O O P U R K I think O O L or U L. I can't remember. I'll have to look it up and send it to you. but yeah, we we did collaborative streams and what we did is every thirty minutes we would export

like a four bar loop of our song and send it to the other person and they had to use that loop in their song, you know, through like whatever Ableton shenanigans you want to do. So you can like turn it into a core or a pad or a drum beat or whatever. But just the fact that you had to like swap stuff constantly and you had to, you know, the next thirty minutes, twenty minutes of that was spent just trying to like figure out what to do with this thing that was just sent to me. And then, you know, you you

iterate on the song a little more and development more and then all of a sudden you have this other thing that you have to figure out how to like put it in there and stuff. So it was it was it was not exactly it's not like competitive, but it it kind of felt like that where it's just like, I'm gonna send this 'cause this'll really mess up It's kind of like playing like those couch co op video games from back in the day.

Brian Funk (09:04.319)

Ha ha ha.

Brian Funk (09:09.686)

Yeah. That's cool though because you can think about it differently. Like I'm I'm sending this out so I'm I need I'm just gonna make something and maybe you have a little fun with it. And then when you've received it, you're also a little bit off the hook because this is what I got. Like what am I

Ben Burnes (09:14.776)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (09:27.214)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it's like the the whole point of the challenge is to make the stakes so low that it doesn't really matter if things go off the rails and you know, you if you train wreck, who cares? Like it's like we were sending random samples to each other over the last three hours. What do you what do you expect is gonna happen? But some of those songs actually turned out really cool. So I I I think that's coming out next month or maybe in September. It kind of depends on everybody's schedule. But that'll be fun. Yeah.

Brian Funk (09:44.258)

Hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (09:54.956)

Yeah. Okay, that sounds fun.

Ben Burnes (09:58.082)

Yeah, we did we did Soup and I did something similar y couple of years ago and that one that album is out. It's called Back at It Again. but in that case we we each started a song idea and then we just gave the entire Ableton project to the other person and then they finished it. So it's like it's it's kind of a that was kind of more of a muted version of what we were doing this time around.

Where this time it was just kind of like, we're swapping all the time. But this is just like here, here's some ideas, make a song with that. And that was that was a lot of fun. Yeah.

Brian Funk (10:31.628)

Hmm. Yeah, that's a cool less zany and crazy version, right?

Ben Burnes (10:37.461)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was it was good time. Let me find that link for you so I don't forget. yeah, so it's like doing doing challenges like that have have been kind of the mainstay for what's just kind of what I wanna do lately and I think that it's been a lot of fun. you had sorry, I'm I'm full of tangents today. you had low motor on a couple weeks ago.

Brian Funk (11:06.348)

Yes.

Ben Burnes (11:07.283)

And around the same time that that you had him on, I released an album similar to his process. which like I've never heard of him before. I have since purchased his albums and I love them, they're great. but I did this project called Artifacts, where I essentially I went on a mini vacation with my wife and I brought all my recording equipment with and I just recorded a bunch of audio when I was up there and then when I got home I

Brian Funk (11:27.822)

Mm-hmm.

Ben Burnes (11:36.514)

made an album from that and it's just like those kind of challenges right now just give me life and I think that's because like they don't really they don't really have stakes. They don't they don't you know they don't matter if they crash, right? Like and I think that getting back to the book and the two hour track challenge, it's just the best way to just iterate quickly is to just not worry about the results and just worry about the process and investing two hours to

you know, just screw around and make something. That's the best thing you can do. and I think I d I mean I really recommend doing the e everybody try the challenge. you know, give it a give it a give it a whirl.

Brian Funk (12:20.62)

That way of working is cool because when you sit down in your studio and you have every tool available and every tool that everyone, all the major, all your idols, they all have it too, you can really get yourself thinking like, well, I should be able to do like something just like whoever, so and so. And that right away sucks all the fun out of it for me. And but when you go away like that and you get yourself a palette to work with.

Ben Burnes (12:25.804)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (12:38.732)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (12:50.316)

limitations and you're also documenting the whole vacation too in almost like a photograph would. Abstract photograph I guess, but still it's got that element to it. And yeah, to take the pressure off. I do find like you know, the pressure can be good sometimes, maybe with deadlines and the two hours, but not the kind of pressure of like

Ben Burnes (12:54.828)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (12:59.938)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (13:07.093)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (13:15.767)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (13:19.436)

like you said, worrying about the pr the end product too much. What's this gonna become?

Ben Burnes (13:21.835)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (13:25.429)

Yeah, yeah. And I I've I've found that that's just so helpful to not worry so much about the end result. And like like you mentioned, like sometimes you have commissions or you have deadlines for a client or or something else. And then yeah, you have to be a little bit more aware of what you're doing because you're not just doing it for yourself, right? Like if you are doing a commission or if you're working with somebody, that that is a collaboration in a way, but they're essentially providing the prompts and you are

you know, fulfilling the actual the actual work. which is a mixed bag. I I still do collaborative and I still I still do commission stuff sometimes for video games and it's a lot of fun, but I've definitely pulled back on that a lot because there have been clients that I'd never really worked with, but you could tell that they are like very demanding. And it's just like at that point you might as well just like put your stuff into the AI generative stuff and just, you know, whatever. Just don't

I don't if if you're gonna treat me like a language model, right? Like just go to go to the language model. If you wanna like collaborate and build something together and do something cool, then I am all for that. But I don't I don't want you to just tell me that this chord is wrong, fix it. It's like well why? What what's wrong about it? So I don't wanna I don't wanna rant about that too much, but yeah, it's just there's there's a lot of there's a lot of friction out there.

Brian Funk (14:28.981)

Right.

Brian Funk (14:35.639)

Mm.

Brian Funk (14:41.484)

Mm.

Ben Burnes (14:51.157)

when it comes to just making things and it's it's really useful to to have the ability to push through it or at least know how to push through it and doing these challenges is is a good way of learning how to do that.

Brian Funk (15:06.311)

And you you tap onto something too about kinda learning what you wanna do and what you don't wanna do is an important part of the process because yeah, it's like awesome, they want me to do this for a video game. It's gonna be and then you that sounds great and I'm sure there are times when it is and you might wind up loving that kind of work, but sometimes you find out too like, I don't know.

Ben Burnes (15:12.693)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (15:30.124)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (15:31.722)

It can be a lot of different things, but I've found that too. There's some things that I f kind of feel like a jerk to complain about, but it's like I don't wanna do that. It's not helping the vision, whatever that is, but just like it's polluting the this precious thing I have that I found. I'm so lucky to have something that I love to do and it's good to know the types of work that you're not gonna wanna do.

Ben Burnes (15:40.235)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (15:43.807)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (15:49.483)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (15:58.978)

Yeah. I've definitely learned that over the years. I I used to be the type of person that just took any job that came my way. And while that was great to like build a portfolio and to learn a bunch of stuff, I I worked with a lot of people that I would rather not have. And I mean the worst the worst thing that happens is like you make something that you love and you send it to them and they're like, I don't really like this and I'm just like, Well, I don't want to tear it apart and I don't really want to like not put it anywhere else and it's like, what do I do with this then? So

It's it's tough. There there's definitely been some times where I'm just like, Man, this this sucks. I really like this song, but now I have to rip out half of it because he doesn't like that part or, you know, whatever. So

Brian Funk (16:38.487)

Hm. Yeah. Right, and I guess they're kind of it's theirs at that point, you know, so you

Ben Burnes (16:46.123)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like you're you're trying to conform to their vision, not the other way around. So it's like, yeah, I want to make sure you get something that you like, but I also want to like not just make something that I think is bad because then I feel bad selling it to you, right? Like it's it's it's a very strange balance and I don't know. I I I feel like I learned enough to be able to be like, Yeah, we we're cool, we can work together

Brian Funk (17:14.647)

Well, I guess you went in a new direction though by making a book. D how's that kind of writing compare to writing music?

Ben Burnes (17:18.219)

Yeah.

it feels like starting over. I did not know anything about it. I I actually started this book like five years ago and I I think I still have like the note cards around here somewhere. Yeah, I have I have all of these old like like I I wrote all out on note cards and these are kind of like the chapters and various ideas that I wanted to that I wanted to put into it. But then I just had this pile of note cards and I didn't know what to do.

I I am thankful that like my my past career had me as like an e learning writer. So I wrote e learning modules way, you know, twenty years ago. If you ever worked at Sears back then, you probably saw some of my saw some some of my work. but yeah, so I like I knew kinda how to write technically. I knew how to write for education.

But I didn't really have any experience in actually doing it. So it was it was kind of a big project for me there. also on my YouTube channel forever ago I had a series called Creative Exploration, which was essentially kind of a podcast of me just exploring random ideas of creativity and and random facets of it. And I think I think some of those did end up in the book. but for the most part it's like I'd never really actually sat down and wrote anything before.

So it was it was a big challenge there. but I think I mentioned Derek Sivers earlier. His his books were very inspiring. I actually I actually chatted with Derek, I went back and forth a couple of times and he suggested some some books that I read on how to write better, which was very which was very useful. and

Ben Burnes (19:06.539)

Yeah, like I I feel like I got there eventually and y I I I you read it and a couple other people read it and they said that they liked it, so hopefully hopefully other people do too.

Brian Funk (19:18.817)

Yeah, I did like it a lot and I enjoyed the style and stuff. What did he recommend to you out of curiosity as

Ben Burnes (19:20.065)

Yeah. Thank you.

I have it right over there. I think it's called On Writing Well. Let me grab it real quick.

Brian Funk (19:31.669)

Writing well sounds very familiar. There's I think st I think Stephen King has on writing.

Ben Burnes (19:39.339)

Yeah, this is On Writing Well by William Zinser.

Brian Funk (19:44.075)

Hm. Okay. No, I don't know that one.

Ben Burnes (19:44.992)

And it was it was a really good book. I I think I read most of it and then it got into like writing sports stuff, which I'm like, I don't really know need to learn how to write for sports and stuff. But it has like science and technology, writing about yourself, writing like nonfiction as literature. So it has like lots of different styles of writing. And it was really it was really interesting. there was another one that

I read, I rented this from the library. I think it was called Several Short Sentences. Which is more towards how Derek and other people write their book, where like their whole paragraphs are like one sentence that's like eight words long. And I feel like that that can be a little too like dis disconnected sometimes. But I I tried to take that into into mind when I was when I was writing my book because I don't

I I really don't like like giant blocks of paragraphs that you know, they can be exhausting to read. So I try to keep everything really short and tight. I tried to keep every chapter like four hundred words or less, which was easy in some cases and very hard in others. and it was it was just quite the experience. and I I I kinda wanna do it again. I I have like

Lots of the lots of the things from the creative exploration series. I could probably do another book on just like creativity, just like general stuff. but I wanted to do this one first because music is definitely my specialty. I guess if I have any credentials it would be in music and I wanted to kind of kinda lean on that for the first book. so yeah. And we have your book here too. I actually have I I referenced this one quite a bit too.

Brian Funk (21:36.46)

Mm-hmm.

Ben Burnes (21:38.421)

And I did a lot of the challenges too. I need to get back to it though. I think I got like a third or a half of the way through and then, you know, life got busy.

Yeah, but it was it was also like the way that you wrote your book. you're building on lots of other things that you talked er talked about earlier. And I wanted to do a similar thing where it's like even if you're just referencing one chapter, you have all of the information that you gained from earlier in the book and you can just kind of reference like, you need to know how to you know you need to know how to bail on a song when it's not going the way you want, right? Like it's just something that you're like, Okay, this isn't working for me, let's just chuck it and start over.

That that kind of knowledge is really important because you don't want to spend tons of time on something that's just gonna fall apart anyway, or that you're not like vibing on. So, yeah, having the book reference that kind of stuff later on is is really useful. And, you know, I love reference books. I love books that are short where you can just like flip open to it and get a bunch of inspiration from it and then just kind of go off and do your own thing. Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:43.744)

Yeah. Yeah, I do too. Well, I like that style of writing, the kind of short, you know, like where the kind of thing where you can sort of be like, All right, one more chapter and then you wind up reading like four, you know. but the sort of short writing, simple writing, it's like what I teach my high school students all the time. I like just as few words as possible.

Ben Burnes (22:57.686)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (23:05.516)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (23:09.197)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (23:09.994)

We've messed them up in school because we say in at least five hundred words. Right about so they're like, All right, you want five hundred words? The topic that I will be writing about in the paper is a topic that is very important to people like me and you and everyone else in the world, all over. And they're like halfway done. But the to be simple and concise is hard to

Ben Burnes (23:19.393)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (23:25.601)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (23:32.574)

It really is. I was I was surprised when I when I started getting into it. Like I said, some of the chapters were really easy to get short because like there wasn't a whole lot of it's like you have an idea and then you explain it and then you're like, well I guess I'm done. But there were some other ones where it's just like I could just go on and on and on about it and it's just like how do I how do I tighten this up to the point where it's like it's worth reading in five minutes, right? Like I don't I don't want people to spend a ton of time on it. I just want them to be able to read it, absorb whatever information I have, and then just move on.

I have I have that problem with a lot of nonfiction books, where it's just like it's four hundred page tome that could really just be a pamphlet. Like somebody just has a cool idea and they wanna they wanna they wanna express it, but then they also have to justify this like the the idea so you buy it, so it has to be like this really big book and then they pad it out with studies and personal stories and all this other stuff. It's just like I just want the idea. I just want the the cool thought that you had and I don't need all this other stuff.

Brian Funk (24:28.316)

I know. I every article on the internet is that. You want a recipe f I was looking for a recipe for iced tea. And I had to read about like summertime and the heat and the it's to get me to look at all their ads and stamp. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (24:31.607)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (24:36.758)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (24:40.557)

Well you know why you know why they do that, right? That's all Well yeah, it's that in search engine op optimization. Like it's it's all like all of these keywords get rolled into the into the searches and all of a sudden like if you're looking for summertime tea, you know, whatever, like that gets bumped a little higher up the list and yeah, it's a it's obnoxious. I agree. Yeah, yeah, it really does. well, if you wanted another cat, this is Tito.

Brian Funk (24:52.982)

Right.

Brian Funk (24:59.37)

Yeah.

Sometimes the medium kills the art. It just but that's Tito, what's up Tito? Welcome to the show. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (25:11.287)

This is the this is the scaredy boy. He's the one that was getting harassed earlier. Hi buddy. Yeah, they're all pr they're all pretty sweet. It's just that sometimes they get wily. Yeah. Well hi.

Brian Funk (25:17.078)

Mm-hmm.

He looks like a nice guy.

Brian Funk (25:27.572)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Well you got like a lot of these things that you're talking about in the book about music, you could be talking about anything really. It could be writing a book, it could be painting. It's I think there are some universal concepts.

Ben Burnes (25:39.852)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (25:47.658)

I yeah, I completely agree. And I wanted to keep the the writing as agnostic as possible when it came to creative work because it really could be about anything, but my credentials are with music, so I wanted to I wanted to have it focused on that for the moment. I I actually read Stephen King has a book called On Writing that I I read like

Brian Funk (26:10.785)

Yes.

Ben Burnes (26:13.151)

every year, every other year, just because it's so inspiring just to talk about like the tools in your toolbox and how you wanna bring your whole toolbox with you so you don't like grab one tool and walk across your whole house and then realize you didn't get the right tool and you have to go back and it's like just bring everything with you so you have it all like ready to go and like just those kind of abstract ideas is they they've been they were really important to me, when I was learning music and how to like write music and everything else just because

You know, they're they're all transferable. All that knowledge is transferable. So Yeah, I I think the next book if if I do write another one, the next one will be about just kind of like generalized creativity because I think that there's just a lot to say on that topic too.

Brian Funk (26:59.532)

Hmm. Well, when you first open up a project and it's the blank session and you can do any style of music you could ever imagine. You have every sound basically at your disposal. W how do you decide? I mean you have a chapter actually, or a section, the Yeah. What do you have to say about that?

Ben Burnes (27:10.061)

Mm-hmm.

Ben Burnes (27:19.029)

Yeah, yeah, the blank canvas or empty canvas syndrome. Yeah. yeah, and I I really like my description of that. I don't think I've ever heard of it described as this before, but I I kind of related it to quantum states where like it's a an empty canvas is a superposition of all music, right? Like you could do anything in empty canvas

but if you put one note in there, that's kind of like all of a sudden all of those options kind of collapse down into a much fewer selection. Because if you put a note in there, like suddenly you're you're married to a key. Or if you put like a certain instrument in there, you're you're kind of limiting the amount of genres that you generally could do with that instrument. and I think the best advice for

like any kind of artist just trying to overcome the empty canvas or trying to overcome that eight bar loop that you can't break out of is just to start throwing things at it. And eventually something will hook your attention and you'll get you'll like start moving in that direction again. And I think that that's like so powerful. Just to not sit there and listen to it over and over and expect something to manifest itself out of it. Like you just have to start doing things and things will eventually happen. Yeah.

Brian Funk (28:37.267)

Mm. You know, I went through that yesterday. I was recording with my friend and he had a song that I knew that we'd kind of jammed on even with our band. And he did kind of all the basic tracks that we did that I was familiar with, and then it's like, all right, play something now. And I felt really clueless about what to do because I guess

had sort of solidified in my head already what this song was and now we're gonna add to it and try to bring out new parts and but the way I figured it out was to just start playing and making a noise and making bad parts and making stupid decisions until once in a while I hit a note that was like, that was a cool change. That was a cool rhythm. That was and then ultimately

Ben Burnes (29:19.862)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:34.779)

after a lot of that fumbling, like something starts to emerge, but yeah, you do kinda need to just throw stuff and see what happens and

Ben Burnes (29:37.6)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (29:44.248)

Yeah. Yeah, I've been this year instead of doing like a the two hour challenge or anything, I've been doing you actually talked to Charlie McCarran, his his Troubadeck. so Charlie has a Discord where he's pulling a new card every yeah, I've got mine too somewhere. Yeah. where'd mine go? well. but yeah. Yeah yeah, Charlie's great. I love Charlie. Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:54.496)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (30:01.387)

I got somewhere. Here they are. We gotta shout out Charlie. There we go. I got my Troubadeck. He did one of my dog. Which is so awesome.

Ben Burnes (30:13.887)

Yeah. Yeah, I my cat is or our cats are in here too. Now I have to find it to show off. But no, he's been doing he's been doing a weekly a weekly card because there's, you know, fifty two cards in a deck and there's fifty two weeks in a year. So, my challenge has been to do chord progressions that I'm not familiar with. So this is there we go. That's that one's my cat's it's not in focus, but there we go.

Brian Funk (30:21.619)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (30:25.333)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (30:38.635)

Mm.

Yeah, I see it though.

Ben Burnes (30:43.789)

and it's been it's been very, very hard for me because I'm so used to writing in like C minor or, you know, A minor or like some of the some of the very common chord progressions. And like some of these are throwing some things at me that I've never played in before. And it's been so difficult to just like find find something that I'm comfortable with and it's it

th it's the same problem, right? Like I don't really know what I'm doing. I don't know how to approach this scale or this chord progression. So I just start I go through my presets or I go through like some chords or I just play random crap on the piano until something starts to feel right and then it's like, okay, well I've I've eliminated all of these other options. So now I can start focusing on this. And that that's usually a good way to to get through it. And the same thing with like a loop, like the song that I did this week. Like I had this

maybe ten second loop and I was like, I have no idea what to do with this. So I just duplicated it out and I started deleting random parts of it and all of a sudden like, okay. I can I can clean this bit up. I can do another melody here. I can do this and I can do that. And all of a sudden it turned like ten seconds into forty five or sixty or something. And it's like, okay. Like you just have to do stuff. And that's that's the hard part. Even though it's so easy to undo or delete things that you did like, you know, wrong.

Like it's still it's still tough to just kind of push yourself to being okay with with failing. I talk about failure in the book too, where failering failure is just another it's like a derogative way of saying learning. I I think that I think that failure is just learning and it's important to, you know, keep failing until you do something that you like.

Brian Funk (32:23.765)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (32:31.741)

I wish we could erase that connotation. especially at school where, you know, it's baked into your brain and it's a hard thing to pull my students out of. It's a hard thing to pull myself out of, even all these years out of it. but like you said earlier, this like the quantum mechanics angle of the superposition it's called where

Ben Burnes (32:33.878)

Yeah.

I bet.

Ben Burnes (32:46.347)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (32:58.059)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:00.763)

n the particle is everywhere until it's observed. it's the way I've thought about it is when you're about to make a song or an I you have an idea in your head, it really doesn't have to follow any kind of logic. It's like a dream, you know, where you're flying around with like, you know, pterodactyl wings and next thing you know you're eating an ice cream cone with George Washington or something. Like

Ben Burnes (33:03.701)

Yes, yeah.

Ben Burnes (33:17.015)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (33:24.802)

Ha ha.

Brian Funk (33:29.855)

And that's all possible in there. But when you're thinking of a song or an idea and you're like considering what you could do, they're all these like perfect fantasies of possibility and like, it'd be so cool if this song did this and that. Well, yeah, it'd be great. And then but as soon as you start laying it down, now it's reality and it's slightly imperfect. And it's also now it can't do all these other options that you thought would be so magical.

Ben Burnes (33:39.629)

Mm-hmm.

Ben Burnes (33:49.911)

Mm-hmm.

Ben Burnes (33:57.579)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:57.951)

But before you do anything, all of those options exist at the same time. And it's like you have to just let go of the dream or the fantasy that whatever it's gonna become is it's it's one thing. It's not it doesn't get to do all those things and

Ben Burnes (34:18.849)

Yeah, unless you want to make like a fifty minute long album or something based off of that idea, but you know, that's also a big investment of time, right? Like so many, so many things you can do.

Brian Funk (34:28.424)

Yeah, and it's yeah, it's just every experience, I guess, is like that. You imagine what it's gonna be like when you you're gonna see your friends this weekend and all these things are gonna happen or we're gonna have this conversation, we're gonna talk about all these things and most of the time in these conversations there's so many things left on the table that we didn't get to and things that weren't supposed to happen that did and that's something you just gotta live with in the music. I think your approach of

Ben Burnes (34:47.436)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (34:54.603)

Yeah. I mean I think that also yeah God. Yeah.

Brian Funk (34:57.61)

Quantity though, and frequency is a good way to fight it because it's like, all right, didn't work out this time or it's different than I thought or maybe you know, it could be better or worse, doesn't matter. But I'm gonna do it again next time. It's real soon, so try again.

Ben Burnes (35:12.011)

Yeah, and I I think that that actually lends itself to just writing things down more often and like cataloging things outside of your head because your head is really good at coming up with ideas, but it's not always good at storing them. Like I've been I've been doing to do lists a lot lately. I ha like I make a little zine every day where I have like my to do list for the week or whatever and

Brian Funk (35:34.858)

That's that's great.

Ben Burnes (35:36.394)

I don't make a zine every day, I make it every week. So it's like I have Monday through Monday through Sunday on here and then I have like a rolling to do list through the whole thing. And I'm able to, you know, chat with Brian. I can cut that off. That's like good. But it's also a good way for me to like doodle or to just write down random ideas or lyrics or anything else that I have just to get it out of my head. Just to get it 'cause like that's that's the one place where it'll disappear, right? Like if you have a cool idea or a cool lyrical thing

Just write it down as soon as possible. And then, you know, at the end of the week with these, I I just throw whatever things I still think are interesting into like a a text editor or some kind of tracking app that, you know, that I use for that stuff. But that way I'm not having to rely on remembering something, like I just carry that with me everywhere and then, you know, then I don't have to worry about it anymore. And to do lists or any other any other kind of like physical thing really works well for me.

Because yeah, forgetting stuff or like having a great idea and then forgetting it five minutes later is just like the worst feeling in the world.

Brian Funk (36:43.198)

Yeah, and you always do. You you really always do. You remind me of I wonder if you read it, Getting Things Done by David Allen.

Ben Burnes (36:44.823)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (36:52.791)

That sounds really familiar. I I can't remember. I'm gonna have to look that up now.

Brian Funk (36:57.372)

It's it's like a business book on organization and stuff and what you said about the mind being really good at coming up with ideas but terrible at storing them was one of the key philosophies behind it. So he he has like a system that I follow, where y you kinda store your ideas, you put into projects or n next actions. You're trying to basically boil things down.

Ben Burnes (36:59.831)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (37:27.048)

But when you get something, some idea, you you have to deal with it right away. You're either going to act on it, and that's like if it's a real short, like two minute or less thing, or you need to store it somewhere. And I use an an app on online called Workflowy. 'Cause it it's like bullet lists, bullet point that's all it really does. it has a lot more features now, I think, but I just use it to make bullet point lists and it helps so much.

Ben Burnes (37:35.393)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (37:45.589)

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Ben Burnes (37:56.194)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (37:56.875)

'Cause otherwise there's a lot of stress in thinking like, like okay, there's like all these things I gotta do today and they're kind of just circling around in your head. When you write down and you categorize them, you realize, there's only like three things I have to do today. But they swirl and the stress of not having to remember it is or the relief of stress you get from not having to remember all these things is great.

Ben Burnes (38:10.411)

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And

Ben Burnes (38:16.331)

Mm. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (38:21.825)

Yeah. Yeah, because you can only keep so many things in your head at once and you know things are gonna disappear and then things will fall through the cracks and things you should have done don't get done. And then, you know, you you're either letting somebody else down or you're letting yourself down. the other the other nice thing about having, you know, a a a running thing like this over a week is that I can see if I've been meaning to do something and I keep kicking it to the next day.

Brian Funk (38:48.33)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (38:48.897)

Which is there's there's one thing on here that I need to finish for like a for a song or an album or whatever. And it's just like I think I've kicked it kicked it down the road for five days now. It's like I need to do this. So that's probably what I'm gonna handle tonight. but yeah, just just being able to have that kind of running like ledger of things that you need to be doing, things you have done, what you yeah. I I think that that's just one of the one of the best ways to just clear your mind so you can

Brian Funk (38:59.689)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (39:16.705)

focus more on like coming up with new ideas and and just like making things, right?

Brian Funk (39:24.168)

I think it's cool that you're using this as a way to keep zine culture alive.

Ben Burnes (39:29.469)

I have I recently found the YouTuber Struthless. I don't know if you're familiar with them. they are like kind of positive motivation. yeah, one of the one of their pinned videos is called Hope is Punk. but he recently talked more about zines and and other ways to like journal. And I I like his videos. They they out they they're not always like

Brian Funk (39:35.006)

Hm. No, I don't think so.

Ben Burnes (39:58.006)

In the middle they're not always positive. He has ones on ones on like AI and like actual like other things, but he tries to end with a positive message. He tries to end with like this is how you can like turn this to some like some force of good either in your life or in like the general world. and I I really appreciate his videos on that. But yeah, he's he's been talking about like zines and journaling and other stuff lately, and it's been it's been good for me. But yeah, I like zines. They're fun. I didn't know how to make one before and now I do.

Brian Funk (40:28.809)

We used to have a music scene, original mu music scene when I was younger. And they yeah, kids would make zines and you'd try to get to like put your album in there and you know, it was fun. Yeah, and like they were just doing it on photocopy machines at Kink O's or whatever at their library and and then they'd come to the show and they'd have a you know, maybe they sold them, maybe they gave them out.

Ben Burnes (40:33.8)

nice.

Ben Burnes (40:40.429)

That's cool.

Ben Burnes (40:46.732)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (40:53.857)

Yeah. Well they're so cheap to make, right? Like you just need a photocopier and I actually these are eleven eleven by seventeen sheets. They're like the big sheets. So like you can actually Yeah. Yeah, so you cut you cut a hole in the middle and then you do a diamond shape and then you have the Yeah. But like the if you do like a normal eight and a half by eleven sheet of paper, like you end up with something really small and I I like writing a little bigger than that, so

Brian Funk (41:04.051)

Mm-hmm. And you got a way of folding them?

Brian Funk (41:11.826)

Hmm.

Ben Burnes (41:23.073)

having the having the eleven by seventeens is a good good compromise and I had some of that laying around from a prior project, so I gotta use it for something. Yeah.

Brian Funk (41:32.617)

Yeah, that's cool. But it sort of makes the planning a little more fun, I guess.

Ben Burnes (41:38.253)

Yeah, yeah, it keeps it it keeps it more active. Like you always have it on you, so if you have a thought you can just jot it down. and it's and it like with all to do lists, it's just satisfying to take a big black marker and you know get it out of there. You never have to see it again.

Brian Funk (41:52.743)

Yeah.

I have my calendars that I make for January and so like just make a calendar so I can put an X through it. And I've got a few of them on my wall just hanging up, but the satisfaction of like, yes and then to look at it and be like, damn, like all right, I can do it. I look, I did it all all those times.

Ben Burnes (41:59.35)

yeah.

Ben Burnes (42:03.863)

Exactly.

Ben Burnes (42:09.695)

Ha ha ha.

Ben Burnes (42:14.635)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just like that that tangible reminder that you can like you have done this and you can do it again. Like it's it's something that is possible, even though it feels overwhelming at the time. It's like having having those reminders is really valuable.

Brian Funk (42:33.353)

Speaking of tangible, this might be the second time this word came up, maybe right before we started recording. you're gonna get the book s in a print version? Are you considering doing that?

Ben Burnes (42:35.167)

yeah.

Ben Burnes (42:44.337)

I would I would love to do that, but I don't know the process yet. I've I haven't been a big fan of Amazon lately. I know they do print on demand, but I don't know if I want to go through them. there there are lots of other options though. for the moment it's just on gum road. when this comes out maybe I'll have an option for a print version. it would be really cool. Like I I I like having a tangible, you know, version of things, especially reference material.

Like for fiction I don't really I don't really need a I don't really need a physical book for a lot of my fiction. Just because that's something that I have on my e reader, I can just flip through it whenever I want. But if I'm trying to reference something, like if I want to go to a certain page, then having having a physical version is just so much nicer. And it's like it's something you can hold, you can bring with you, you can sit down like at your computer, you can reference it and all that other stuff. but yeah, print on demand would be great. I worry about

printing in bulk and then me worrying about like shipping stuff out and all that other stuff because I I I I printed C Ds of my first two albums like twenty five years ago and I had still have piles of those in one of my drawers over there and it's like I don't

Brian Funk (43:50.633)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (43:58.034)

Yeah, I've got them from my teenage years.

Ben Burnes (44:00.462)

Yeah. I don't want to add to that pile, so it's probably gonna be some kind of print on demand or work with a publisher to have like a certain run and they can handle all of it. But yeah, right now it's just digital. I have it as a PDF or an EPUB so you'll be able to put it on an e reader. but yeah, I'm I'm okay with that for now. It's like one step at a time.

Brian Funk (44:21.895)

Yeah. Yeah, I th I did it through Amazon. I could understand issues and yeah. I'm terrible, Ben, I get it.

Ben Burnes (44:25.579)

Mm-hmm.

yeah, and I'm not I'm not trying to be like, y Amazon, you're a bad you know you're not a bad person for using it. It's just like No, it's just like it doesn't really align with what I'm trying to do, so I'm just not gonna do it. Like I don't put my stuff on Spotify anymore either. Like it's just like whatever. It's not like they were paying me anyway. So

Brian Funk (44:39.228)

No, I hear ya.

Brian Funk (44:44.797)

Hmm. Yeah. No. You're probably paying into it to get it on. But there is something cool though, of that like you mentioned like feeling like an author. and I feel the same way. It's like it I feel that about saying I'm a musician or a teacher or anything. I feel like I'm like, yeah, I'm just like this I'm still this kid that is like faking it and all that, but ha having it.

Ben Burnes (44:50.667)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (45:04.747)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (45:08.492)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:14.715)

What it there's a feeling to that that is nice. Even if you make one. You could do that even with Amazon. You just one copy you sent to yourself. I recently did that with my newest record too. it's I can grab let me show you real quick here.

Ben Burnes (45:16.673)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (45:20.673)

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (45:29.223)

yeah?

Ben Burnes (45:32.973)

Sure, sure.

Brian Funk (45:38.011)

Here we go. There it is. There's a company, Elastic Stage, I think it's called. you can you can get vinyls printed one at one offs. So I printed two. One for me and one for my friend who did the painting on the cover.

Ben Burnes (45:39.508)

cool. it's beautiful.

Ben Burnes (45:45.205)

Okay.

Ben Burnes (45:51.136)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean obviously it's yeah, it's probably more expensive that way. Yeah. it's that's so cool. I think

Brian Funk (46:00.371)

But it's available if anyone ever wanted to buy it. But it's nice just to I think I'm gonna put even like some of my older releases up there. just to have them in my house as like moral support. Like, look, you did it. You could do it.

Ben Burnes (46:02.603)

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Ben Burnes (46:16.481)

Yeah. They must have a yeah. Yeah, I do have a I do have a poster of my first album. Like for a million I now we're just showing each other cool stuff, but I have a poster of my first album.

Brian Funk (46:28.453)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (46:32.23)

Yeah, grab it so we can see it.

Take a look at what you've done.

Ben Burnes (46:36.949)

I printed probably twenty twenty something years ago. So get the microphone. There we go. So this is something that, you know, it's a it's a such a cool reminder to just have a a thing that you made. Like I still remember sitting in my room at college, like photoshopping all the branches out and stuff. So it's like a it's like a really clean print.

Brian Funk (46:41.352)

Uhhuh, cool. That's nice.

Ben Burnes (47:03.063)

But yeah, like it's just such a cool reminder to have all these things that you made and that's like, yeah, I have done this, I can do this and it's like yeah. So I'm gonna have to look into that though. elastic stage. Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:18.984)

believe that's what it's called. it winds up costing you like thirty bucks to get one made.

Ben Burnes (47:20.011)

Yeah, vinyl and C D created.

Yeah. I mean vinyl vinyls are expensive just in general, but like doing a one off I'm sure is is more so. They must have a different way of cutting it because usually they get like plates, right? Like you they they make a big plate of it and they press it in there, but they must have a different way of of like the production. Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:43.677)

Yeah, I don't I don't know. And I'll be honest, I didn't get f because of that. I mean I have a record player that I can play it on, but I'm not you know, it wasn't mastered for vinyl or anything, like none of that stuff. So it's it's the keepsake of it more than anything. But to have have that is kind of encouraging to be like, cool, like that never would have existed and and I I can do it when I'm

Ben Burnes (47:49.025)

Yeah, there's that.

Ben Burnes (47:53.612)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (47:57.846)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (48:06.316)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (48:13.616)

working on a track and I'm like, I suck. What am I you know, I'm I've lost it or whatever you want to say to yourself. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (48:16.525)

Yeah. Yeah, you know, I've lost it. Did I ever have it? Like, you know, all of that and like it's a good yeah, it's a great reminder.

Brian Funk (48:27.686)

Yeah, it's it's a cool that we can get single shot vinyls now. for really like pretty cheap. 'Cause

Ben Burnes (48:31.254)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (48:35.403)

Yeah. Yeah, like thirty bucks is still like a reasonable price for something you buy new these days. like they're all like yeah, they're all like thirty five to fifty dollars depending on if it's one disc or two discs or you know special pressings or interesting act like the actual material is that rainbow color or whatever. Like you there's so many different options. But yeah, like it's not yeah, it's not well, you're not gonna open it, so yeah.

Brian Funk (48:43.346)

Yeah, for a vinyl. Like a p

Brian Funk (48:49.522)

Mm.

Brian Funk (48:58.854)

Yeah, this is it's just black and I didn't even print anything on the sleeve, like it was I don't have the art, you know, I don't have any of that, but yeah, what the hell, you know. We did the same thing with my band. We did an EP last year and I th I sent away for four or three for the three of us and it was just like David Doom's Christmas presents

Ben Burnes (49:05.783)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (49:09.772)

Yeah, why not?

Ben Burnes (49:17.687)

Ha ha ha.

Ben Burnes (49:22.443)

Yeah. I mean that's that's I don't we've maybe we've talked about this before, but like making Christmas presents is the reason why I started doing music really in the first place. Like way, way back in the late nineties, early two thousands, like I didn't have any money. I was in college. and I made music as kind of just like whatever, just like for fun. And yeah, that was my Christmas presents to my family every year and my friends where it's just like these are the songs I made this year, have have fun. It's so

Brian Funk (49:49.458)

Hm. That's cool.

Ben Burnes (49:50.796)

Yeah, I mean it's it's been kind of a I maybe it's kind of a cheap tradition, but it's been a tradition for me to just like share everything that I've been doing and you know, they seem to appreciate it, so I can't I can't complain.

Brian Funk (50:04.592)

One of the tracks on this album that I just did is for my dad called Make My Dad Proud. And he he's always said like, Brian, you should do country. I bet you could do it. You could be like a nice country singer. And so that was like sort of a country ish s I mean it's I don't know how much different it is than a lot of my songs, but it's that was the idea, you know, to make him a country song and gave it to him for his birthday.

Ben Burnes (50:09.75)

Ben Burnes (50:25.985)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (50:30.219)

Nice. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (50:34.541)

That's so cool. I'm I'm trying to remember if I actually listened to this. I'm pretty sure I did listen to this. I'm gonna have to queue it up though on Bandcamp. Yeah, I have it on my wish list, so I must have listened to it. But I'm gonna listen to it again. Yeah, I that I remember seeing that art though. It's such a cool painting.

Brian Funk (50:34.61)

He's like, Do it for my birthday. I was like, All right. That was the deadline.

Brian Funk (50:53.158)

Yeah, yeah, my buddy made that and I I asked him when when I was thinking about doing it, like, You got any I know he'd gotten into painting again, so I was like, You got anything that'd be a cool cover for this? And you know, and it it it's like the collaboration thing you mentioned too. It it helped springboard it a little, helped make me make it official 'cause you know, I had the songs, I could just listen to but

Ben Burnes (50:54.765)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (51:11.362)

Yeah.

yeah.

Ben Burnes (51:20.865)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (51:21.554)

to make it into an album. yeah. And and to be like it's really fun to like send the picture, like, check it out and we'll get together, I'll give one and yeah. It's it's a cool way to

Ben Burnes (51:31.167)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (51:36.812)

Yeah, I mean even

with that artifacts album I mentioned earlier where I was like at I was just at like a verbo or Airbnb or one of those and like when I was done with the album I sent it to the host. I was like, you know, when I was you know, when I was there for that weekend, you know, I made, you know, I recorded a bunch of stuff and she she loved it. She like over the moon. She was like, I have a I have a son who does music and that he'll love this and it's like, Okay, that's cool. Yeah. It's like it was just this like really random thing. It's just like, you know what, maybe I'll make somebody's day with this. Maybe they won't care. Who knows?

Brian Funk (52:01.681)

Wow. Look at that.

Ben Burnes (52:09.113)

But it was it was a lot of fun to just like send it off and be like, Here's some music I made that was inspired by the place I stayed at. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (52:10.086)

Mm.

Brian Funk (52:16.731)

Yeah, that's awesome. That's a great idea actually. Cause yeah, some people probably like, all right, man, whatever. you if you want to book again, make sure you clean the sink first before you leave. But you know, you might find somebody that actually understands what went into it and appreciates it for that.

Ben Burnes (52:23.767)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (52:27.885)

Ha ha.

Ben Burnes (52:36.673)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, even if I didn't get a good response, I still think I'm gonna bring all my stuff with next time I go somewhere. Just because it was such a fun way to source new sounds. Like I used to I used to make sample packs every month and like share those with people and sell them on Gumroad and like now I have a sample pack for basically everything in my house, which is great, but it's also like, well

I can't really do anything original like original anymore, like big air quotes there, 'cause like I've already recorded everything that I wanted to record. so I'm kind of getting more back into the idea of like really stripping things down and like going with like

things that I've never made before, just to like recreate them again and like re recording sounds that I've never made or the like re even if I own the sounds or I made the sounds already, just like re recording them again because like now it's this place that's like I'm feeling this way and it's just like you know, you're you're you're capturing the essence of like where you are currently instead of just like pulling a recording that I did five years ago into into a song. Like that's fun, but it's not the it's not the same and it doesn't have the same vibe and

It's been it's been a lot of fun to try to like rediscover and kind of re explore. I I mean I mean I don't really want to get too much into L LMs, but like it's like that whole generative music thing. Like you can just you c ask someth ask for something and you it it shows up and it's like I'd rather have like an experience that I put into a song rather than just a prompt. And that experience comes from the pictures that I take in the area or the sounds that I found in that area, even if they're similar to the ones I've recorded five years ago. Like just

having all of that stuff and having that palette, I think you used the word palette before, but yeah, having that palette of just like inspiration to work off of is is just a really novel and I think kind of important way of making music these days because it's so easy to just like throw something into a prompt and be like done with it. But it's like that takes all the humanity out of the actual act of creation. Like you wanna actually make things. And yeah, I think

Ben Burnes (54:47.437)

Pulling pulling from experiences is something that I've been trying to do more of lately.

Brian Funk (54:53.073)

Yeah, there's w I guess we're learning about the value of the effort that goes into making something. I mean, I don't know, if I hiked to the top of a mountain and took a photograph of it, that's w I'll feel more special about that than if I got the postcard of the photograph, even if it's a better photo professional. Yeah, there's there's something

Ben Burnes (54:58.337)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (55:13.451)

You you f yeah. You flew a drone to the top and took a picture of it with your drone. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (55:22.309)

to that and like you said that you're capturing like this time experience and wherever you are in your life. And chances are you either have already recorded it or you could certainly look it up and download it from somewhere and have it. but I think that's part of it. That that experien the going through of it and the effort it

Ben Burnes (55:35.585)

Mm-hmm.

Ben Burnes (55:48.535)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (55:50.256)

I think it matters a lot and the more AI type stuff I encounter, the less I care about that stuff. even just like little things like kinda put me off like there's an event and I look at the flyer and I'm like, Ugh that everyone's doing this flyer. I can't I would I wish he would have just wrote it on a piece of paper and drew like a picture of a dog or something on it and it's

Ben Burnes (55:57.57)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (56:07.115)

Yeah, you're like, really? Yeah.

Ben Burnes (56:15.597)

Ha ha ha.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (56:18.703)

I guess it reminds me too, there's like a missed opportunity of being creative that you just kinda dumped away. A little chance to put a little heart and soul into something that you know, like the zine thing you've shown, like if you remember like the zines were cool because kids were making by hand and they were ripping paper out and th that's how they got pictures and they just cut out and stuck in there.

Ben Burnes (56:21.995)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (56:32.427)

Yeah, yeah.

Ben Burnes (56:39.105)

Yeah. Yeah, they were clutching stuff together with like glue and tape and yeah, like you just you just took what you can find and and you make something w through that. And I mean going back to the two hour track challenge, it's it's a really similar experience, right? Where it's just like you might have a prompt, you might have like an idea that you wanted to like express, but once you get into it, it's just kind of like okay, this is where I'm at. How do I how do I finish this thing in forty five minutes, right? Like

Okay, here we go. And then you just you just go through the process. And that process is the important thing. I I like to say that like when you're doing art, the actual thing at the end is just like it's like a residue. It's a byproduct. Like the the whole thing that you you're trying to get is the experience. And you've got that experience. And at the end of that you have this byproduct of a song that I guess is kind of cool that you can share with your friends. And I think that that's like a mindset that we've kind of lost a little bit.

But I think we're starting to learn more about it again with like this whole like generative stuff because like all of a sudden you can make as much product as you want. But that's not that's not what you want. You want the experience, you want the the the knowledge, you want the yeah. I don't know. It's like I yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (57:53.029)

A byproduct. No, it's a good it's funny 'cause that used to be a like a bad word, like by product of something. But now it's kinda like like with our band recordings, we've got a couple things we've can listen and look back to and it's not the whole experience, but it's it's a by product of what we've been doing and and you like you said, you share it with them and

Ben Burnes (58:05.869)

Mm-hmm.

Ben Burnes (58:12.973)

Mm-hmm.

Ben Burnes (58:16.491)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:23.247)

If that's all it is, it's that's cool.

Ben Burnes (58:25.717)

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And with Charlie McCarron and the Troubaduck, he's he's based in Minneapolis as well. So we've been we've been trying to get a handful of the musicians in the Minneapolis area to just kind of come together and jam. 'Cause I've never I've never done a jam in person. Like I've always like played my own music by myself and just done my own stuff. And I would love to just kind of sit down and, you know, hang out with people and just make something and you know, it it'd be in it it would be ephemeral.

That's yeah, that's the right word. Where it's just like once it's done, it's gone. Like we probably won't record it, but we're just like sitting out and you know, hanging out and doing stuff and you know, it's okay. Like it doesn't have nothing nothing has to be a product. You don't have to sell everything you make. Sometimes you just make something because it's like the process is cool and then when you're done, you're done. And then you know, it doesn't exist anymore. And you know, you can remember it when you when you want to.

Brian Funk (59:04.838)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (59:20.507)

Yeah. we are very busy turning everything into a product. I mean, go to a concert and everyone's watching it through their phone. And everywhere you go, like everyone's taking pictures of everything. They're like, look at the sunset. They take the picture and then they turn away from the sunset. Like it don't care about it anymore. They missed it. They didn't really even see it. And even musically, like everything has a record button on it now.

Ben Burnes (59:27.551)

yeah.

Ben Burnes (59:33.25)

Mm-hmm.

Ben Burnes (59:38.87)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (59:47.905)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (59:48.601)

And it's okay, let's do it. Sometimes to just play an acoustic guitar out in the backyard and know that it's gone. But it's so only about what I'm doing right now. That's nice playing with people like that too. You're just jamming and whatever. Something cool happens, it doesn't matter because something cool is happening. We're playing together.

Ben Burnes (59:56.918)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:00:02.295)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:00:08.343)

Mm-hmm.

Ben Burnes (01:00:12.619)

Yeah. Yeah, that's a that yeah, that's a really good way of saying it. Like you know, something cool is always happening. Some things are just a little cooler than others. Yeah, and yeah, I'm hoping that we can get together with the Troubadeck stuff and and just jam out 'cause I'd love to have that experience and like I've never played in a band. I'd love to try.

I I might not be good at it, but I'd love to try. It would probably make me a better musician because then I won't have like the undo button. I won't have like the delete key or stop button so I can go back and do another take, right? Like it'll make me less precious with how I approach like playing. And I think that that's, you know, really, really important. So

Brian Funk (01:00:49.88)

It's very important. I am pretty thankful that that's how I kinda came up playing in bands and playing with friends. yeah, 'cause you learn you do learn a lot of about cooperating and making room for other people and not being the star of the show and like 'cause like when we produce, like I did everything. Like I did all this, I did all that. And sometimes you just have a role and sometimes your role is don't play anything now.

Ben Burnes (01:00:51.116)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:00:54.869)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:01:05.269)

Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:01:18.997)

I did when I was in high school I did play trombone and band. So I'm I am aware of that. Like the trombones are either a supporting instrument or a let's not play anything for twenty bars instrument. So I I I am familiar with that part at least, but yeah. That's that's a really good point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:01:23.376)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:01:30.32)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:01:36.795)

But it and it's real time reaction of off other people, which is a lot of fun and as I've gotten older and had the experience of being able to be the supreme overlord of my musical projects where only my ideas happen and that's it, I've been so much less uptight about what other people play. 'Cause I used to

Like, no, this is how it has if we're gonna make this part rocket, you have to play this. Like that was that'd be like how I'd think, you know. but now it's like, so you're gonna do that. So what can I now I'm thinking I'm not thinking yeah, I'm not saying no, I'm I'm doing the like the improv comedy. Okay, yes, and what can I add? Let's go along with that.

Ben Burnes (01:02:06.406)

yeah, yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:02:15.703)

Yeah. Yeah, you're flowing around their ideas. You're yeah. I

Ben Burnes (01:02:24.427)

Yeah. Yeah. Yes and I have another another chapter in my book about that too where it's just like, you know, even if you're working with yourself, you're still improvising. Like you're improvising with your past self and their future self. You wanna be able to set things up for yourself in the future and you wanna be able to like take those ideas that you had in the past and continue developing on them and just let that idea that mindset of yes and is is so important to just keep things flowing because if you start if you start like

Brian Funk (01:02:34.992)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:02:54.593)

you know, saying, No, I don't wanna do that, I don't wanna do that, like with your past ideas, then you're not gonna get anywhere, right? Because you're just kind of you're deleting all the stuff you did so you can make something new, so your future you can delete that stuff and you know, it's not it's not it's not it's not cooperative. Even if you're just cooperating with yourself, it's still something that you have to do. So being being having an open mind like that is so so valuable.

Brian Funk (01:03:12.87)

Mm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:03:19.95)

And sometimes it's harder to do that with yourself. Like 'cause at least if you decide to play something, well Ben likes it, so somebody likes it. If I played something I'd be like, I don't even like it

Ben Burnes (01:03:21.846)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:03:28.191)

Okay.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but you you liked it enough to put it on the page ten minutes ago, right? And it's like you come back to it later and like, this sucks, but it's like why does why do why do you not like this now? Like did something change in the context between then and now, or do you just get sick of listening to it 'cause you've listened to it on loop for the last ten minutes and you know, like sometimes it's sometimes you just need to figure out why you don't like something. and it's not necessarily 'cause it's bad, it's just because you don't you know, your context changed.

Brian Funk (01:03:38.598)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:03:55.46)

Yeah. Could just be.

Hmm. Yeah. Overexposure or or now you're thinking about soaring synth lead instead of like cool chord progression.

Ben Burnes (01:04:03.97)

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:14.69)

It's a mental battle. But you cover so much of that stuff in here. I'm definitely impressed with how you're able to keep it short, 'cause this is like the infinite, you know, pit of despair you can get into with so many of these things. But you you offer like a lot of great solutions to following the song, what does the song want, being ready for that, and there's yes end. I see that.

Ben Burnes (01:04:17.717)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:04:31.874)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:04:43.969)

Yeah. And I mean I I tried to kind of cover a lot of like just like really broad strokes. I don't really go into like how to write music. I talked about how to write music in two hours, like just the mental state that you need to be in, like just how how you need to prepare yourself and how doing this challenge over and over and over because I did this every week for eight years. how doing this challenge

Brian Funk (01:04:44.838)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:54.608)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:05:09.399)

can really be transformative to how you think about being creative and how you approach being creative because you are making something in a low stakes environment. Even though that you have a time pressure, it's still low stakes. Like if something like if everything train wrecks and nothing happens, you're just like, okay, well that was just two hours where nothing really, you know, whatever. It doesn't matter. But like

having that mindset and and being able to train yourself with the idea that, you know, it's okay to fail, it's okay to flounder, it's okay to not know what to do. You just have to do something. And I mentioned in the book, but I've done I think like in total about four hundred and fifty of these two hour track challenges and I've never come away from the two hours with no ideas. Like I've always ended up with something. Even if it's not great,

You know, it's still something. It's something that I put on the page and I'm very proud of that. And doing the community challenge and bringing in a lot of other artists and and you know, they're all doing the same thing and a lot of them have had the same experience. It's like, well, it I didn't really have any ideas, but once I sat down and started getting into it, like I yeah, okay, I know what to do. And then, you know, things started happening. And I think like just that initial push of momentum to to get started.

is is really the important part of this challenge. And it's just like, you know, you just need to sit down. You need to sit down and be prepared to actually make something and have time blocked. And the only way to get better is to just keep doing it. And ultimately, you know, like how to write a song in two hours. It's more just like how to think about, you know, being creative. How to how do you how to like train yourself to be creative when you need to be. And yeah, like I'm I'm really

Really happy that the the book came together the way it did and the the people that read it early have all given me positive feedback. So yeah, I'm I'm pleased.

Brian Funk (01:07:05.135)

Hmm. Yeah, I mean, these are definitely creative challenges and blocks and issues you'll come up with no matter what, even if you're not trying to do it in two hours, but you do have a little bit of that time pressure element in there as well. How do you deal with that? I find that to be sometimes really a useful thing.

Ben Burnes (01:07:16.236)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:07:23.797)

Yeah. Well I mean at yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Brian Funk (01:07:31.044)

We do in the music production club every once in a while we'll do a meeting where we make music from a prompt or some and we the meetings are generally two hours long, so we'll get together, kinda say hello, set it up, and then set aside about forty five minutes to an hour. And then we come back and listen to what we did. And it's r everyone is always like, my god, that went so fast. I can't believe it. I wish I had more time. But it's

Ben Burnes (01:07:37.495)

Mm-hmm.

Ben Burnes (01:07:47.948)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:07:56.053)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:00.494)

the pressure of it has this ironic effect of relieving you of the pressure too, because you gotta do something. And when I'm working on it, I I'm like, okay, that'll have to do and move on, move on, move on and just make these decisions. And like I my built in excuse is always I only had forty five minutes. I that's so I'm kind of off the hook with it too.

Ben Burnes (01:08:05.899)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:08:13.335)

Yep. That's good enough. Yep.

Ben Burnes (01:08:24.993)

Yep, exactly. Yeah, I it it's exactly the same way. And like it's just it's just the excuse to do something. It doesn't really matter if it's great, it doesn't really matter if it's anything that you want to listen to ever again, right? It's just the exp excuse to sit down and make a thing and having having the ability and the time to do that. That's the like dedicated time that's scheduled. It's like, okay, everybody, I'm gonna be in my studio for the next, you know, two hours or forty five minutes or whatever. It's like

Just being able to to sit down and do that is is so valuable because like at some point, even if you don't have a time limit, you have to finish a song. Like you can work on a song forever unless you unless you know about when a song is done. And that's a very personal taste kind of thing. But like at some point a song's gonna be done and you have to know when that is, because if you if you never finish a song, how will you know? So if you finish a song in two hours, then you start getting a better idea of like, okay, this is

This is when I think a song is complete. Like it's not perfect. It doesn't have to be perfect to be complete. It's just like I don't want to work on this anymore. We're good. and I think that that's that's I mean, that's another really, really important skill to have where it's just like I if even if I have infinite time, I need to know when a song is done. And I need to know it's like, okay, I can finish this song now, I can move on. And like that's another really, really important skill that this this challenge helps impart.

Brian Funk (01:09:54.276)

Yeah, the finishing is just it's a skill you have to practice. You really do have to know when to stop. That's half the battle. That when does cause you used to be a lot easier when I had like a four track. And I was like, Yeah, those four tracks like maybe I could bounce three of those tracks to track four and make another and maybe I could do that one more time, but after that it's just destroyed. So th there was that.

Ben Burnes (01:09:59.063)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:10:02.55)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:10:08.653)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:10:15.405)

Mm-hmm.

Ben Burnes (01:10:20.727)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:23.065)

kind of end to the road no matter what. But when there's no end to that road and you could we could just keep Yeah, you wanna do seventeen guitars? All right. Cool.

Ben Burnes (01:10:31.949)

Well, it's so much diminishing returns, right? Like you can spend two hours to make something ninety percent of the way there, or you could spend eight hours and make something ninety five percent of the way there. It's like is the extra six hours you spent, is that really something that's gonna like raise the song to the point that like you could have spent making four other songs or whatever? Like it's it's you know, how do you wanna spend your time and how do you want to invest your time and

Maybe sometimes it's worth it. Sometimes you really want to get into the weeds and like make that perfect, w which is totally fine. But most of the time I just want to like sit down, I wanna finish a song, like, Okay, that's done, let's make another one and then not really worry so much about, you know, the end result and going back to what we were saying before, I guess. It's just like it's not really the end result. I just wanna make cool things.

Brian Funk (01:11:14.725)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:18.253)

And that's a good thing to be aware of too, kinda to bring back to the quantum entanglement we were talking about where once you the the earliest decisions are kinda the biggest ones, that first note, that first rhythm, 'cause it sets the tone. A lot of the major decisions happen pretty early on. And it's worth realizing that every thing you do after that is like a little bit smaller.

Ben Burnes (01:11:31.809)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:11:41.271)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:11:47.469)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:11:48.075)

in general, like they're smaller and smaller things. So yeah, you get that like first eighty percent done pretty quick and the rest of it is much slower.

Ben Burnes (01:11:50.827)

Yeah. Very much so, yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:12:00.942)

Yeah. Even with with the track that I did last last weekend or last week for the community thing, like I think this like the chorus was done about forty minutes in. It's like, okay, well I guess I need to fill out you know, I need to fill out the rest of it and then that took the r the remaining time. It's just like, Okay, well I need an intro, I need an outro, I need a verse, I need like a breakdown, a build up and all this other stuff. It's just like at that point you're just kind of filling in the blanks. You're coloring inside the lines and

Yeah, there's always opportunities p to be creative within there, but like you also need to kind of fit within the framework of a what a song usually sounds like unless you want to get really experimental, which is, you know, fine. But usually you have a you have an idea of what what a song is to you and you just need to kind of do the work at that point. And it's just kind of filling in the blanks. So yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:50.392)

Yeah, you just gotta make the decisions. I think deciding is more important than what you decide, a lot of the times.

Ben Burnes (01:12:52.834)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:12:57.847)

That's a very, very good way of putting it. Yeah, I like that.

Brian Funk (01:13:02.936)

Just pick something, please.

Ben Burnes (01:13:03.905)

Yep, just pick it. And if it if it's bad you can always pick something else. But usually it's okay.

Brian Funk (01:13:09.368)

Yeah. At least it gives you a next step, a next choice, the next decision.

Ben Burnes (01:13:11.757)

Yeah.

Yep. Yep. Yeah. And you can always run into like a dead end somewhere, but usually you don't. It happens though. Sometimes you gotta sometimes you just gotta start over and that's okay too.

Brian Funk (01:13:27.02)

Hmm. Well, you convey a lot of that sentimentality there that you know, you're you're trying to boil it down, but you also have this kind of comforting tone of like, Look, you know, do your best and don't take it too seriously. You get one called Not Every Song Will Be Great. It's it's comforting, I mean, right?

Ben Burnes (01:13:41.783)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:13:47.629)

I know that from personal experience, trust me.

Brian Funk (01:13:53.465)

Well, if they were, you'd get bored, I think. I think if you had like the Twilight Zone episode where you can every s time you write a song, it's a number one hit. You might find yourself it's like the guy that can't die and he just tries to find ways to thrill himself and that's one of those episodes and he just can't.

Ben Burnes (01:13:56.267)

That's true. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:14:07.328)

it's another one, yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:14:13.527)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And I I think even in that chapter I talk about how like if you make a good song, or at least this happened to me, if if when I whenever I made like a song that I really loved, I started to set the bar just a little bit higher for next time and then higher and higher and higher and all of a sudden like the bar is so high that I'm just like everything I tried to make sucks and like I can't do anything and those are usually the those are usually the streams that ended up train wrecking and then you know the next one I'm like, well

Last one sucked, so I can do whatever I want this time and I usually do something weird and experimental. I'm like, I love this. I love this a lot and just like not having those expectations when you go into, you know, the studio is can be really transformative. It can like, Well, I don't know what I'm gonna make, but I'm gonna make something and it doesn't really matter if it's good or not. It's just like I'm gonna sit down and do something and Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:47.502)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:15:10.721)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Don't have expectations. Low bar. That's that's so important. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:15:11.62)

It's awesome.

Yeah, and it sounds very counterintuitive or like almost like bad advice, but of you you don't have to worry about that 'cause you will. You do care and you do have your expectations, but you you gotta s try to put aside a little bit, 'cause as soon as you start judging, as soon as you start questioning, it that's when the bad things happen.

Ben Burnes (01:15:26.7)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:15:39.212)

Yeah. Yeah, it's not that you're like intentionally being lazy. You're not like doing things bad on purpose. You're just like, I don't know what's gonna happen and that's okay. Like it's kind of just letting go of that expectation that something is going to happen. Because you know something's gonna happen. You just don't have to anticipate it. You just kind of just like get into the flow and then you just do your thing. And I think that that mindset is really hard to cultivate and this book talks about it a lot, I guess.

Didn't really think about it that way before, but yeah, it does. Like it's trying to cultivate a mindset. It doesn't matter what type of music you write. It's more just like being in that right state of mind to actually write music just generally. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:16:23.618)

Yeah. I agree. And it's like a comforting friend through the process.

Ben Burnes (01:16:29.045)

I'd like to yeah, I I'd like to think so.

Brian Funk (01:16:33.57)

No, I think it's great. It's it's definitely manageable. And you got a really cool like reference area at the end where you kinda offer just some ideas and things to try to. So it's not all just up in the air philosophical kind of abstract stuff, but you you give some like very specific directions there at certain points too, which is nice at the end.

Ben Burnes (01:16:54.517)

Yeah. Yeah. During the book I tried to be just ambiguous towards like making, you know, whatever you want, but at the end I have like a series of prompts, I have a series like of of inspirations, things that you can try to like get inspired to do things, or if you wanna just like

have an idea but you don't really know where to start, it's like, well, here's a couple example video game music loops that you could try. Like you could do a boss fight or a space space scene or, you know, anything like that. And I just have a list after list of just like different things that I could that I could think of or that I have done in the past. Where like one of my favorites, I think it's the first one on the the challenge list is make a song that's a palindrome. And I've done that and it's very, very fun and I recommend everybody to try it.

I'll put the I'll put the link to it in the in the notes for you.

Brian Funk (01:17:46.606)

Melody that plays forward and backwards the same way. Yeah, that's cool.

Ben Burnes (01:17:48.661)

Yeah, yeah.

I need to find it. I'll find it later. but yeah, like just like making making a song that's a palindrome is so counterintuitive because you have to think about it from two different directions and you have to kind of make it make sense both ways. and then you know, you can change the chords around on the second half to recontextualize the first half because it's going backwards and all this other stuff. It's it's a lot of fun once once you get into it, but it's definitely it's definitely a tough one. Hi, kitty.

Brian Funk (01:17:54.542)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:18:20.459)

Yeah, that's a cool one. I've never tried that on purpose. Well sometimes melodies wind up having like a mirror shape. You know, they b go up and then down and but the to purposely do that is fun. I'll have to give that one a shot.

Ben Burnes (01:18:30.45)

yeah, yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:18:37.249)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:18:41.389)

Another cat nearby.

Brian Funk (01:18:42.069)

So you were gonna have it on Gum Road for people that I hope will be interested in. I think they should check it out. I'll I'll be letting people know about it myself.

Ben Burnes (01:18:46.997)

Well Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna put it on Gum Road. I'm only gonna have it sell it for like five bucks just because I would rather people, you know, experience it, download it, you know, be able to to to give it a try. I would rather have people do that. So I I try to make it cheap and accessible and I think five dollars is a good price point for that. Hey kitties. Hey

Brian Funk (01:19:08.605)

It's a real bargain, if you ask me. I mean there there are things you say in here that that could really like just change everything for people. And I I I mean, there's things you've said to me in our conversations that have really stuck with me and changed how I look at it. One of the biggest ones was you just talking about budgeting your time like it was money when you're making music.

Ben Burnes (01:19:11.365)

thank you.

Ben Burnes (01:19:18.39)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:19:29.506)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:19:31.991)

Don't spend a hundred dollars of your hundred dollar fifty paycheck on compressing the kick drum. You know? Like if you only have an hour to work on something or two hours, like you don't have the time to get caught up in that kind of nonsense. You need to make the bigger decision. That's really been an important one for me.

Ben Burnes (01:19:36.941)

I love it, yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:19:46.477)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:19:50.466)

Yeah. Yeah, like budgeting and that kind of stuff is it's a good really good way of thinking about it. I I like that. And it's just Yeah. I mean even e we already talked about this. Even if you have infinite time, even if you have infinite money, like you gotta spend it somewhere. And you don't wanna you don't wanna spend it all in one place. So

Brian Funk (01:20:08.311)

Yeah, right. Hey butter.

Ben Burnes (01:20:09.751)

This is butter, by the way. For the for the podcast listeners, he's a black cat. Yeah, they're sweeties. yeah, that's Toots. She's a she's a calico cat. Her her name her full name is Cutie Patootie, but we like Toots.

Brian Funk (01:20:15.307)

Yeah. Beautiful cat. There's another someone else behind you too. I don't think I saw yet. Two it's

Brian Funk (01:20:28.247)

Nice. Well, cool man. I think we're about where we said we wanted to be, right? So

Ben Burnes (01:20:34.741)

Yeah. Yeah, I think we ran out of things to talk about. At least for now. Hey kitties.

Brian Funk (01:20:38.719)

I don't know about that, but we we hit a time, so that's a good limitation anyway. So I guess abstraction music dot com would be a good place to send people for the book and for all the music and everything.

Ben Burnes (01:20:44.493)

Stop fighting. Yeah.

Yes. yeah, abstraction music dot com will have will have the book link at the top of the page probably forever. and but yeah, the Gumroad Gumroad link will definitely have it too. And I can provide that to you once the two stop fighting. once once the book goes live I can provide that to you.

Brian Funk (01:21:11.509)

I'll make it easy for everyone by putting it in the show notes and descriptions of the videos and stuff so that you can just click on it. Yeah, I'm really psyched for you, man. I'm I think it's great that you're sharing this stuff and that you're putting it out there for people and and you just overcame it. You completed something else, another creative work, and that's always a it's always a little bit amazing whenever anybody manages to

Ben Burnes (01:21:14.209)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I appreciate that. Yeah, and I hope

Ben Burnes (01:21:33.441)

It was so hard.

Brian Funk (01:21:39.832)

Do something and follow through and finish it like this and and it's great. It's it's an honest, it's you're not coming across like, but I've done four hundred of these, so let me tell you, it's still vulnerable. Yeah, you're not you're s you still have a vulnerability to it and I think that's important for people to know 'cause they might think, Well, this guy is just cranks out hit after hit or you know and

Ben Burnes (01:21:42.338)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:21:50.509)

Let me tell you how it really is. Yeah. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:22:03.809)

Yeah. I wouldn't say that. But yeah, song after song maybe. Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:22:08.717)

But you know what mean, like that can be kind of intimidating too, to be like, he's able to do it every time to varying degrees.

Ben Burnes (01:22:15.477)

Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, going back to the the the the thing I love about the community challenge and something that I would recommend that everybody try is in the future. I think the next one's in October. But it's just like the ability to s just sit down and do a thing. Like so many people start the challenge being like, I don't know if I can do this. I've never done this before. I'm fairly new at music writing just to generally and you know, they still come out with fifty seconds to like a minute and a half of really good music. And it's like, look at that.

You sat down, you focused and you did it. And like now you can do it again whenever you want. Like one of the first things I say in the book is like, you know, the challenge is just to sit down and start a timer. Like you don't need the book for that. This book is about like trying to get you involved and like get that mindset and like trying to figure out like how exactly you do this consistently and without burning yourself out and all of that other stuff. And yeah, like the challenge is the challenge is just setting a timer. Like that's not special. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:23:13.101)

Hm. Showing up. Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:23:14.817)

the the challenge is really the mindset of just being able to sit down and do whatever you want whenever and I think that that's that's really the important part and the real value that you get out of it.

Brian Funk (01:23:26.467)

Very cool, man. Well done. And yeah, I definitely recommend you to all you listeners out there in Podcast Land, check it out. it's a great book and it's you can read it in an afternoon if you want, or you can just dip into a little tip here and there, which is now that I've read it, it's probably how I'll do it. I'll just open it up and like, yeah, that's right, I gotta remember that. You you can intellectually understand this stuff, but it it still comes up every time. It's

Ben Burnes (01:23:35.349)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:23:45.559)

Yeah.

Ben Burnes (01:23:55.482)

yeah.

Brian Funk (01:23:56.011)

One of those weird things about our mind. You can understand all the flaws of it, but you're still just as susceptible as anyone else. So

Ben Burnes (01:24:00.94)

Yeah. You gotta put it into practice. That's the only way to like really cement this stuff. And I mean a l half of the book is me talking to myself, being like, Man, I really struggled with this and I still struggle with this and like this is how I get over it. And it's like, Okay, well now I can read this book and be like, Okay, well I'm struggling with this and now I need to like so I feel like a lot of that is just like talking to myself too. So yeah.

Brian Funk (01:24:17.207)

Hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:24:24.931)

Hm. Well, makes sense. And I think we can relate. Cool. So check out abstractionmusic dot com, everybody. And thank you, Ben, for being back again. And there are lots of other great episodes with Ben I'll put in the show notes too. And yeah, thank you everyone for listening.

Ben Burnes (01:24:27.895)

Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

See see ya around episode five hundred something. It was good to chat.

]]>Writing a Song in 2 Hours with Ben Burnes - Music Production Podcast 433Song and Vocal First with Howard Benson - Music Production Podcast #432podcastBrian FunkMon, 31 Aug 2026 13:55:49 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/howard-benson52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a958499773aba04779abeeaHoward Benson is a Grammy Award-winning, multi-platinum producer. With 15 platinum records, 10 gold records, and over 150 billion streams, Howard has shaped the sound of modern rock and alternative music. Howard has worked with Hoobastank, POD, My Chemical Romance, The All-American Rejects, Daughtry, and many more. He is also the co-founder of Judge and Jury Records. 

Howard spoke to me about his work with some of the biggest names in modern rock, and the importance of songwriting and vocal performance and production. 

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:00.238)

Howard, great to have you here. Welcome aboard. Yeah, thanks for taking the time.

Hb (00:00.957)

Yeah.

Hb (00:05.661)

Good see ya. All right. My pleasure.

Brian Funk (00:11.63)

You've got quite an impressive history to yourself. Just the who's who of modern rock that you've worked on and put so many great records together. It's, I could imagine, right? Because it seems like it happened pretty quick after a long buildup, but then suddenly kind of found your niche.

Hb (00:23.525)

Yeah. Kind of a blur.

Hb (00:31.984)

Long build up. Yeah. I think that's yeah, I think that's just my story. I think some people hit it out of the park right away. They get, you know, in their twenties and they hit it out and then they maybe don't have any more hits. But I certainly paid my dues, as they say. So, you know, I'd like had about fifteen years of just struggling after I left my aerospace job. And that was, you know

I probably would have stayed at the aerospace job. I liked it, actually. But just, you know, but my degree was in that so I was doing good and making decent money, but I was kinda bored with it and you know, not that bored, but bored enough where I said, I'll just take a year off and see what happens, you know. So I had a couple of local bands that wanted me to work with them and I worked with them and nothing happened, but I got addicted to it as we all do. And I just kept at it. And

You know, in our business like a little bit of success is enough to keep you being addicted to it. So, you know, I kept having enough, you know, demos, minor league records, you know, a couple of sniffs at the big time, but then they didn't happen. So it was just you know, I like I feel like when it had my first hit, I was pleasantly surprised and I was glad that it happened, but I was almost like

Okay, I'm happy for the rest of my life, I don't care if that happens again, you know. But then it did. And so it just kept going. It was kinda weird, you know, like somebody turned a light switch on or something. But when you look back at your career, you always realize that you have been building up to those things. You know, all the time and effort you put in that eventually pays off, hopefully.

Brian Funk (02:03.949)

you

Brian Funk (02:09.282)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (02:20.685)

Yeah, yeah, sometimes the dots are easier to connect. Looking back.

Hb (02:25.908)

Absolutely. Yeah. We're all heroes in our own story, so you know what I mean.

Brian Funk (02:33.45)

What do you think was the difference? And where do you consider that point in your career where something finally clicked, like the light switch turned on, as you said?

Hb (02:42.007)

Well, I think it was a few years in a row that one major thing happened is when I met a guy named Keith Olsen, who was a producer who produced a lot of big records like Fleetwood Mac and he produced Scorpions and he was just a LA producer with a lot of hit records. And I was producing on my own at that time and i it never really happened before, but a band actually fired me. And it was well manager fired me.

And I sort of needed to be fired, actually. And when I look back on it, I just didn't have I didn't have a there there when I was producing. I was going into the studio each time and starting a record in a different manner. Like I didn't have a process down. And when I met Keith, Keith was the producer of the band that took over he took over for me actually. And I endeared myself to him enough and I just I remember

The next day I kind of put my tail between my legs and came back to the studio if they didn't expect to see me. And I just said, hey, I'll audit this session. You know, in other words, I'll just watch. Because I knew I needed something, like I wasn't doing something right. And I had already done about ten, fifteen albums at that point, but some of them are great, some of them sucked, and they weren't that creative. And I was just following a template that other producers had done. And then when I weren't met with Keith,

It was a whole other approach to producing that I had not noticed, I had not been aware of, you know, just the way he handled the artist, the way he was the guy. He had the, you know, respect of the artists. And also his approach to vocals. And it was funny because the band didn't expect to see me that day. They thought I had like was gone forever. And I showed up the next day and they're like, What are you doing here? And I said, Well, Keith has been nice enough to let me watch what he does because I just want to see some stuff. And

It was probably the best like two months of my life. Like I learned so much from I was a sponge. And he was happy about it. I mean not happy, I was the wrong word, but he respected me for actually doing that. You know, 'cause most producers would not do that. They would just say, you know, fuck you, you know, go do another record. But I knew I needed that, you know, like I was aware enough. And so after that, I got a job at Giant Records.

Hb (05:05.416)

And that taught me the other side of the record business, because now it was an A and R guy. That had a lot to do with I won't get into it, but and then after that I discovered Pro Tools. And Pro Tools I got hired to do a Sepultura record because I had made five four Motorhead albums and the same manager had managed Sepultura. They liked Lemmy liked working with me. Again, none of those albums sold because Motorhead just didn't sell music. But they were he was a iconic artist.

And I did a body count record with Ice T, but again, no sales. These records weren't selling at all. And when I got into Pro Tools, it was a like a I o it was that was probably the flashpoint because there was a technology that I understood. Like I got the studio technology, but it all seemed a very bit like black magic in there. Like nobody really told you what was really like you could you knew what was going on, but a lot of it was kind of like,

just happen stance stuff. Like I and I got what was going on ahead, engineers and all that, but I wasn't as in touch with the music as I wanted to be. And when Pro Tools came along, and again, I was a really early adopter, like like five to six, maybe seven years before it took off. Then I realized, wait a second, all these things that are the pictures I'm painting in my head that I want these records to sound like, I can do this really fast. And I know how to do it really fast.

And I have all this tal I hoped I had the talent to do it fast. And plus I didn't need the bands to do it fast. I could do it by myself. I could just take the music home, which I bought a I I literally spent the last dime I had and bought a Pro Tools rig. And it was like those old ma Apple Mac clones, Apple IBM clones. And the thing barely worked because back then it was a joke. You know, if you breathed on it, it crashed, you know. But I made a

Brian Funk (06:49.772)

Yeah.

Hb (06:55.611)

Record and then I kind of ran into a band called POD that and I still hadn't had any really hits. And then I just convinced them somehow they bought into it. And you know, the AR guy did. And he was a forward-thinking AR person, and this was like 1998. And I said, Listen, I think your band really would benefit from this computer stuff. Like, you know, I was thinking, well, the band would the Sigar would benefit from Auto Tune, which I had actually the first.

Not the first, I'm sure the guys got it, but I had the floppy disk out of tune one point which was amazing. Like I couldn't believe it was working. Like it was a shock. Because all these years you're doing, you know, punching and punching and punching, just you know, over and over and over. And all of a sudden there they are, they're in tune, you know? So that benefited everything. Like all this it it all I found the I was ready, but the right project hadn't come along yet. And then Lesson Jake and POD came along about the same time.

Brian Funk (07:30.93)

hehe

Brian Funk (07:47.52)

Hmm.

Hb (07:52.601)

And those records exploded, you know, and all of a sudden I was hanging on for dear life. You know, like I didn't know what happened. You know, I got platinum or gold records and platinum records and the next record went platinum and the next record winum and the next record went platinum. Then I became the guy, all this I became this unknown guy, which was so funny because I was not unknown to me. I had been s knocking around Hollywood for fifteen years, you know. But like people are and back then without the internet, they didn't know about my hairband records, you know, they couldn't find them. They're like, who's this guy? you know?

Brian Funk (08:20.812)

Dig up the pest.

Hb (08:22.85)

I forgot to pass, you know. Now of course people look at those records and go, aren't they great? I'm like, you didn't think so at the time, but you know. So like it's it started I you know, and f what I learned from Keith was the process of making records. You need to have your own way of doing things, and that's part of your strength because the chaos around you is enough chaos. You don't need more of it. You don't need to bring more in into it. Like I always say it's like flying an airplane. You're the pilot. They've

depend on you to fly the plane. In the back of the plane is the chaos. You know? When I was making records originally, I was part of the chaos. I was like, yeah, we'll party, you know, we'll go out tonight and we'll do this and you know, we'll do four reels of tape and we'll maybe we'll do it differently this way. Maybe we'll set the guitar cabinet stuff this way. When I got a process down, I found the guys I like to work with and I found a Pro Tools guy and an engineer and a Chris or Algae as a mixer. I realized I was not a great mixer as a better record producer than mixer. So

And I learned a lot of that from engineering too, because in engineering, in aerospace engineering, a lot of it's process oriented. But as a person coming out of engineering, you think, well, I'm gonna throw that all to the wind and make it all chaotic because it's music. Well, that's not how it really works as a good producer. You want to be the steady influence. You want to be the steady hand in the in the studio. And I watched how Keith was the steady hand in the studio, you know. Keith didn't take shit from anybody. So like you you develop that sense of gravitus, you know, like

You know, you hired me, now it's you know, you're gonna do a I'm gonna negotiate with you, but if you want a hit record, you know, and the more hit records you get, the better. Because then you can point I mean, I used to watch Keith do this. When he didn't get his way, he would bring the bands in the room with all the platinum records and he would just go, What do I know? You know? So I have a room like that. I call it the intimidation room, you know. And like, but if you don't have that room,

Brian Funk (10:13.632)

Huh. What do I know?

you

Hb (10:21.273)

The artist won't believe you because it's subjective, so much of it. You know, like we don't really, you know, am I gonna go verse verse course or verse course? Like, which way is it? And I'll I will use my knowledge I've built up over time to give them an idea of what I think is going to be better for the, you know, the result. Consequently, I became a hit record producer, not just a record producer. I started having hits. So that was part of the reason people hired me, you know. And if they hired me to make

Really great records without hits, I denied the project. I just wouldn't take it. Like I wanted to be have I said to the bands, You're gonna love me in a year when you have a hit. You may hate me right now, but I'll be sitting in this chair next time if we have a hit. And that's what I'm aiming for is for you guys to have lives and enough money to buy all the gear you want and have families and send them to private school, whatever you're gonna do, you know. Because if we don't have a hit, you're gonna be slogging it out for the next two years. And

You know, you're gonna be pissed off. You may be pissed off at me now for the decision I just made to take out your precious bridge, but you're gonna be happy a year from now. So I just didn't I got to that point. I think a lot of it was because of all the failing failures early where I didn't give a shit anymore. Like I just said, I'm doing this for me. Like I want hit records. And if you don't want hit records, don't hire me. Like I got to that black and white part, which is comforting in a way, because you're at the point where you

You know that that's the most important thing you're doing. You know? Like you you're there to shoot, you're the you're like Kobe Bryant. You're there to hit baskets. You're there for the scoreboard. They want like Ross Robinson to go make a record that's cool but doesn't sell anything. Hire Ross. No offense to Ross. I love Ross. But you know what I mean? Like there's guys out there who will do those type of records. Now, I don't see that as much anymore because people need to have streams and they need to have that stuff.

But back in the day there were a lot of producers who just didn't really care that much about selling records. They just wanted to make cool records, you know. There consequently, a lot of bands failed, you know. So I think I'd been so done with failing that once I had hits I was like, I like how this feels. You know, I like this. I like watching hearing my shit on the radio all the time. It's it's a it's a buzz, you know, like like I don't want to go back to that, you know, struggling.

Brian Funk (12:34.412)

Yeah.

Hb (12:44.627)

Again. So yeah, I mean I think the years of struggling were actually the best thing that could have happened to me personally. Not for everybody. You know, everybody's different. But for me it really toughened me up and it made me appreciate my career, you know. So like I bless I give thanks to the music gods every day, pretty much, you know. So there it is, there's your whole interview. You're frozen by the way almost.

Brian Funk (13:00.48)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (13:09.066)

Yeah, you had a chance. Yeah. Thank you. But you had, yeah, I'll try to move it around or something. you can hear me okay though. Okay. I'm wondering what kinds of things, were there specific things you changed that you noticed made a difference or was it just more as all vocal production you think? I've heard you say this before that.

Hb (13:14.698)

My screen. So yeah. Yeah. It's okay. I don't need to see you. Yeah, yeah.

Hb (13:33.173)

Vocal production. well yeah.

Brian Funk (13:37.868)

because the vocal is the key of the song and that's what people hear.

Hb (13:41.226)

You know, I after I sort of had hits, started having success, I came up with my own worldview of how I make records. And it's my it's the way I look at it. And I remember like I first of all married to a music publisher. My wife is done very well and she sold her company. She signed Julia Michaels, so she's like got good ears for that stuff. But she would always say to me, Your records sound really great, but all the songs suck.

And I was like, who cares about the songs? You know, it's the guitar tone and the drum tone, because that's what the bands were telling me. So this is where the Keith part came in in good, because Keith was like, who cares about that stuff? It's all about the songs and the vocals. And once and you can say that to a producer as much as you want or anybody, but until they internalize that. Because that's not easy, that stuff. That's hard. And it only made it more obvious to me when I worked with Clive Davis on a bunch of records. And that's hardcore AR.

Brian Funk (14:10.859)

Yeah.

Right.

Hb (14:38.513)

stuff. You're not even listening to the songs. You're just looking at the lyric sheets. And if it the lyrics sheet doesn't work, we're not going to hit play on the c on the you know, or stream it or whatever he did back then. It was cassettes back with him. So we just didn't do that stuff. And I became so addicted to getting great songs that I didn't even let the bands go in the studio. I turned down the first All Market Rejects record. They six months they hired me six months later because I said don't think you have the songs. You know, I just didn't care enough.

I mean, I cared enough, but I didn't care to get turned down, is what I'm saying. But I cared enough about the project that I didn't want to make anything that I couldn't deliver. And if I it wasn't like me being angry with the artist, it was like, look, you want me to make a hit record, you need better material. So, and I think I became known for that and also just a lot of delegation in the studio. I have an engineer that I trust Mike with all my guitar recording. like the way our sessions go, I go in the first day.

We put together the arrangements, we have the songs sorted out. This is a lot of pre-production before this. Way a lot. You know, songs being like our lady piece I'm doing right now, and Rain is sending me songs, and we're negotiating over the phone for a lot of things at the moment. But, you know, once we go in the studio, then we'll work out the arrangement. But once the arrangements are worked out, as far as recording the drums and the guitars and the bass, I'm out of there. So I'm here doing vocals in my home studio. So I'll start vocals like the third day.

Brian Funk (15:58.636)

Hmm.

Hb (16:04.419)

Something like the fourth day, I don't wait for vocals because that determines, you know, like I've I've said in other interviews, if I can hear my song at CVS coming through that little speaker, and I'm just hearing vocals, that's all I'm hearing. And if it's a hit there, I did my job. You know, if it's like a great sounding track that I can't remember, then I didn't do my job. In fact, when they talk about their production in an interview, if they review my albums and go,

What a great album. The production's amazing. That I didn't do my job. That's not the you don't want that. You want them to talk about the artist and how great the material is. I'd rather not be mentioned. Yeah. So, you know, I think that there's a lot more producers I think are better at this now than they used to be. But it's become harder to do because the artists tore so much now that you don't have this pre production time that you used to have.

Brian Funk (16:39.115)

Yeah.

You want to fade into the background. Yeah.

Hb (17:02.245)

Where artists would just go away for six months and you would work on music and then you make a record. Now you're doing it between tours. So you're having to kind of like find songs, help write the songs, you know, get them to make demos on the road, which they never do. They always say they're gonna do it, but they're always too busy, you know. And so with a band like Three Days Grace, which I've had so much success with that band, because they look at music like I do. They're very that's why Neil's my partner, you know, because he's a song guy.

And it's like they take time off from their touring to write this record. They just don't write it during the tour. And that's a huge thing. That that makes the music so much better because you're, you know, you can stop, you know, tell the band do this, they go home, they work on it, or whatever. They're not going out and playing a show that night, you know. So there's a lot of things that are harder about it, but a lot of things that are easier about it because the artists do know how important the songs are.

They're now looking at streaming numbers. You're not the record company saying to them, nobody likes it. And they go, Well, how do you know? Well, I know because I put the the records out and the streaming sucks. You know? So like you're you you know, the a lot of the stuff is, you know, you don't put a full album out, you put out like pars parts of albums, you put out one or two songs, and they don't happen. You go to the band, well, look, we know the songs aren't strong enough. You know, of course you get the usual argument, like the right it's the record company's fault. No, it's not the record company's fault. The song is the song, you know?

And you can tell by the data. Thank God I have other people doing that shit. Cause I don't if I hear the word algorithm anymore, I'm gonna shoot myself. You know? But other you know, you have other people telling you, hey, look at the numbers, it's not happening. You know, we have radio and this r this, you know, in Phoenix and the record's not reacting. Well then you know your song's not happening. So you can fight that with the artist all you want. Kind of a tough fight, you know, for the artist to win that one. So I'm there to make the artist happy.

And give them lives. You know, I take that kind of part really seriously. You know? I know what it's like to struggle. So when I can get an artist off the ground, like we're having a lot of success with Butcher Babies right now, even though she lost her other singer, but her career is really we've had two or three really strong songs with her. And I love that sh they're so happy. They they love us because their career is like starting to happen again. That to me is like it's not the money. It's the it's the satisfaction that there's like

Hb (19:26.902)

People that are getting their art out there, that they're getting themselves heard, you know? So I don't know. I guess that's kind of I know it's very aspirational thinking, but I I I that's funny, I'm all my friends I play golf with and I hang out with are real estate agents, are real estate guys, and they think I'm crazy because like I don't look at it at dollars and cents. I look at it like we're painting this big picture, this movie of this band's career and their lives, and we have these great set pieces that were our singles and stuff, and they're like,

Yeah, but how much does it cost? And how much is who cares? The story, we're telling stories to people, you know? If that happens, then you'll get paid. But I never did this for the money. Like ever. Like my parents were completely shocked that this happened because they were like, Well, you never cared about money. You're the one guy in the family that never even talked about it. And I was like, Yeah, I never thought about it. You know, I just wanted to make good music. You know, that would that was really it. Like the fact that this happened is kind of like

Brian Funk (20:18.712)

it.

Hb (20:26.785)

I feel like in an alternate universe somewhere that, you know, the other Howard is still at the aerospace job. So yeah. It's kind of a I feel pretty blessed by the whole thing, you know.

Brian Funk (20:33.214)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (20:39.166)

Yeah, well, you said before, I don't care, but really it's because you do care. You want to get it right. You don't want to get involved until it's ready, until we're going to do it so that it makes an impact. And as you said, like tells that story.

Hb (20:46.944)

Yeah.

Hb (20:52.894)

yeah. But the money part I never cared about. The money part was like I always said to the artists, if we make great music, you guys will make money. But if we don't make great music, you're not gonna make money. So we can't worry about the money part. You know, just forget that. Like it's kinda like a football team, like you want to go out and play the game. That whenever out on the field it's no time to be writing songs at that point. You know, when you come in the studio, we better be ready to go. Like that's like the magic. Like we could depend on some studio magic, but like I wouldn't depend on it that much.

Like it happens at times, but I know when I've heard a song, if it's gonna be competitive, I can't tell you if it's gonna be a hit or not, but I can tell if it'll be competitive or not. You know, like I can't tell if the p if the public is going to go bonkers over it. But like I always tell the bands, I'm gonna put you up at the plate, you're gonna swing the pick bat, and what happens after that? You know, nobody knows. A gust of wind could put it into the bleachers and we're all brilliant, you know.

We're like stars of the game, and then a gust of wind will take it, knock it to the catch it, we're out, we're idiots. So a lot of times it's that's unpredictable, that part. But I want to put the bands up at the plate. I wanna give a good swing, you know. After that, who knows? Up to the music gods after that one.

Brian Funk (22:11.978)

So when you're looking for good songs, I mean, you're also saying you're getting into the vocal parts very early. I'm kind of curious how that works. How are you working on the vocals as the other parts of the song are being tracked?

Hb (22:23.069)

Yeah.

Hb (22:31.494)

We in front of demo.

Brian Funk (22:33.875)

Okay.

Hb (22:35.387)

Yeah, if the demo bones are good enough, I don't need the rest of the song. I could I could do all the lead vocals on just the demo. You know? I might have to go back and retrack a few things, but if I know that demo, that 180 seconds is close enough, then I'm gonna bring the singer in my vocal booth over here and just let's go. You know? Now the singer might say to me, I really want to hear the real drums and I'll be like, Okay, so we'll wait for that. But most of the time our demos are pretty good.

Like I've got a working a working demo that we've put into Pro Tools that they are playing to. So, you know, I'm not gonna go in without that. You know.

Brian Funk (23:11.528)

Okay, so you cut a decent demo and then you kind of restructure it around that.

Hb (23:17.403)

Yeah. yeah. I mean I don't think I've cut vocals to a a full done track in like a long I mean, I would say it's half done. You know, the maybe the drums are still drum programmed and we haven't done the drums yet at the end. We usually use the drums at the end. So sometimes that's not done. Sometimes the bass isn't the real bass. the guitars I mean, we're we're always in tune. Like the one thing we don't do, it it's a funny question you asked, but our

Brian Funk (23:26.366)

Yeah.

Hb (23:44.91)

Our Pro Tools editor will not do any vocal tuning or pitch correction until the guitars and bass are done because he tunes to that. But I know I'll deliver him a comped vocal. That is what I want. Like it's not maybe a tune, but it's the performance I want. That's what I want. I don't care about the tuning or any of that. Like I couldn't care less. You know, that's his problem. It's Paul's problem. So like when he sends it back, it's funny, like we gently tune over. This is something that's happened the last 10 years.

Brian Funk (24:08.158)

Yeah.

Hb (24:14.054)

We'll gently tune the vocals, especially because I work with really good singers, so I don't really have pitch pitch problems, but nothing too drastic. we'll tune the vocals and we'll play it back for the singer and they'll go, Why didn't you put more auto-tune on it? And like it used to hear the other way. Like, why did you not auto-tune it? Why did you auto-tune it? Now it's like, no man, I want it more pitch corrected. So we leave ourselves a little gap, actually, that w I can slap auto-tune on there in regular stupid mode.

And that'll just jam it right into place. And if they like that, they like that. And if they don't like that, it's good and it's where we want it, which is like close enough, you know, still has the vibe to it. But singers have really gotten used to tuned vocals, man. It's amazing, you know?

Brian Funk (24:46.09)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (24:57.448)

Hmm. Yeah, listeners, singers, everybody. It's just what you hear. You don't even know you're hearing it anymore. You're so used to hearing it.

Hb (25:02.124)

It's what you Yeah, and when I play a vocal with Al Autotune, it's like I put up something recently with Chris Cornell. I put up a I soloed one I did a vocal with him or of a Led Zeppelin song. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I put that up. And and the on my Instagram feed, I got the usual people saying they loved it and all that, but on the I put it on what's Reddit feed, right? And three, you know, haters came on and were like

Brian Funk (25:16.714)

whole lot of love, I think I saw. Yeah.

Hb (25:31.947)

It's so auto-tuned. I can't even listen to it. Sounds like somebody's sitting. It's like, dude, it's not auto-tuned at all. That's the raw vocal. You're hearing compression a little. I put a little compression on it so it was evened out. But it's amazing how dumb people are, the outside world. They think it's auto-tuned. But because now you can hear him missing notes in there, right? Because he misses notes. Everybody misses notes, you know? But they think that's bad auto-tuning. So, like, I don't even bother.

I was ready to respond and my my son Grady goes, stay out of it. I Yeah, I know, I'll stay out of it. So, you know.

Brian Funk (26:05.161)

Save some of your life from that poison.

Hb (26:09.879)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (26:13.585)

So it makes a lot of sense actually because once you have the vocals, you can build around it. And I think a lot of times we build everything else up first and then try to fit the vocal in there. with your philosophy of we're going to hear the vocals at CVS or on the iPhone speaker that half the listeners are using anyway, this stuff has to fit a good vocal rather than.

a good vocal will fit into a good performance with the band. Good tones, good...

Hb (26:46.741)

Yeah, and the well the artists like there's two types of artists I work with. One, the heavy rock bands that write from the guitar riff album. So they're gonna write a guitar riff and they're gonna write vocals over that. The pop artists I work with strictly write from the vocal performan vocals and the songs in. So like when I did country records with Rascal Flats, it's all about the songs. They couldn't the rest of it we deal with lay it it's also formulaic there. So, you know, Nashville's different. Here, like

With with a three days grace, a lot of time the guitar riff is just as important as the vocal riff. So if we don't have a guitar hook, you know, we're not even gonna get beyond that because that guitar hook is sort of them, you know. So if you listen to AC D C they're the same way. You know, the guitar hooks are are paramount. But there's some songs where, you know, you're just hearing strumming. That vocal better be good because that nothing else is carrying that song, you know? So,

Brian Funk (27:33.001)

Mm-hmm.

Hb (27:44.362)

Clive, that's one of the things that Clive was funny about because Clive didn't really relate to hard rock music very much. So we had to sometimes convince him of things. you know, like, hey, I know this doesn't make much sense, this vocal, and it doesn't add, you know, A plus B does not equal C here. On the other hand, like with Daughtry, these vocals don't always like there's a song, there's a few songs in there where the vocals don't make that much sense. They're a little bit obtuse.

But the guitars are great and the riffs are awesome and the performance is great. So but he would still make sure that we had the basic chorus locked in. What's the story? You know, like what are we what story are we telling? If we didn't have the right story, we wouldn't even get past that part, you know. So I love working. I mean, I was very saddened that two weeks ago I, you know, watched the funeral and it was a huge loss to our business. Like people don't realize what this guy did.

And the average, we don't expect the average person to do that, you know. But he sort of invented the modern pop record business, you know, single-handedly, you know, with all the bands he's signed. You go back to Janice Joplin all the way to the future, you know, he was still working up until about maybe five years ago. But his way of AR was very interesting because he never really upset the artist that much, but he could still get his way.

He had a really classy way of dealing with things. He always had the jacket and the you know, the handkerchief. And he would just be I he learned a lot from watching a guy like that get his way through a Kelly Clarkson or a Whitney Houston. You know, it didn't work with Kelly, it got sticky, but you know, he eventually got her back on track, you know. Actually I was brought in for that next album to work with her and we made a great record with her, you know, but and every artist has their

Brian Funk (29:13.01)

Okay.

Hb (29:39.614)

you know, off ramps sometimes if they hit. That's just the way it is. You know, I I always say everybody's every artist has their Paul's boutique in there somewhere and you're just gonna have to deal with it, you know? So, but yeah, some artists, you know, it's funny, they knew what he was up to though when I did I met with Dave Matthews and I lunch with him at the peninsula and he goes, Clive had brought me into the meeting and he said, Meet Howard. Howard's gonna make a hit record for you. And I said, Okay, I'll meet you know

Brian Funk (29:47.497)

you

Hb (30:08.013)

I wasn't a really a Dave Matthews fan at all, you know? And I went to the show the night before at the Hollywood Bowl and my god, the fans were just fanatical, not this guy, you know, like just like the Grateful Dead show or something. And I walked I there was something going on and I was sitting across from Dave and Dave goes, Clive brought you in to make hit records with me, right? I said, Yeah. He goes, Tell him I don't fucking care. I'm gonna do the records for my fans. And I went, Okay, let's have lunch.

Brian Funk (30:20.369)

Yeah, something going on.

Hb (30:37.552)

You know? I get it, like that's you know, I respect that. Like you're y I and you know what, for someone like him, that's not a Clive project. Do you know what I mean? That's a Vibe project. But for like a guy like a Gavin de Gras or just Whitney Houston or something like that, any of those records he touched, in fact if you look at American Idol, all the good music and the great stars were when Clive was running the show. And as soon as he left, that was it. Though you can't remember anything after like Kelly Carrie Underwood. You know?

Brian Funk (31:06.737)

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Hb (31:07.194)

You can't remember anybody. So it shows you the power of songs. The whole show went down the whole show became about the presenters, you know. It stopped being about the artists because the songs were shit after that. You know, there wasn't anybody driving the the train anymore. So, you know, so I still am you know, when I do records, even the smallest records I do, I put up such a fight about the songs. You know, like I'm just not gonna record it unless we have songs.

that are hit that are I think are competitive, you know. So I'm not as big of an asshole as I used to be. I used to be a big bit of an asshole about it. But I've calmed down in my late in little getting older, I was like, I think I can get the same result without getting into a screamy match. Yeah. Anyway.

Brian Funk (31:44.841)

you

Brian Funk (31:50.953)

Yeah, tone it down a little. Yeah. A little wisdom there. You found new methods, I suppose. And you've also got the background to support yourself, to say, well, this is what I think. I don't need to yell.

Hb (31:58.863)

Yeah.

Hb (32:04.292)

Well, you what's funny, the artists want me to tell them now. It used to be that I had to like even after you have hits, you run into artists that are like pushback. Now it's the other way around. They're like, Is Howard happy? What's Howard think? You know? And like half the time I'm like, wait a minute, I need to focus here, you know, on this project and do my research before I even listen to a song. Like, what is this band about? So lot times you have to really find out what they're really trying to say. A lot of that's

so important what's the context of this lyric? You know? And all that remains record is gonna be way different than a calculation, you know, what the lyrical context is gonna be. So

Brian Funk (32:45.928)

But it sounds like you're still looking for some kind of thematic idea, some kind of thing that we can follow. When you said like, I think you were just talking about Dautry, the lyrics might've been obtuse. You were referring more like, more lyrically abstract kind of thing, but then something comes together.

Hb (33:05.547)

Yeah. Yeah, something like like there was a few songs on there like Feels Like Tonight, right? You couldn't I remember my wife said to me, You're frozen again.

Brian Funk (33:17.992)

Hmm. I hear you,

Hb (33:18.953)

but you can still hear me, I guess. I thought Riverside didn't freeze up as much as Zoom.

Brian Funk (33:25.734)

Yeah, I'm not sure. Maybe it's our internet. Maybe it's all this heat and smoke coming from the wildfires here in New York.

Hb (33:31.342)

Yeah.

you're in New York. okay. I had no idea where you were. I I when it says Riverside, it's funny, my brain just goes, that must be riverside. I didn't even think about it, you know. But yeah, the smoke is bad. I mean, we you know, welcome to the party. This is what we deal with out here all the time. You know, it's not pleasant. Yeah, yeah. But you know what? You get a little bit of a storm and some wind and rain. You need rain and

Brian Funk (33:35.901)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (33:49.136)

Yeah, I know. I first experienced it out there.

Hb (33:59.673)

put out the fires, a little bit of wind it'll be gone in two seconds, you know. So just hope that it happens. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't even know where we were talking about, but you can go back to the

Brian Funk (33:59.817)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (34:09.612)

about the, so I'm kind of digging into what you're looking for in a song, I suppose. You mentioned the Daughtry thing, the lyrics might be a little obtuse here and there. I think you're speaking lyrically.

Hb (34:23.627)

Yeah. Well it feels like tonight was a really strange lyric. We got that from Dr. Luke and Max Martin said that to us. And I remember listening to the song and I thought, man, this feels like a hit song. I don't really know what it's about, but it sounds like a hit to me. And my wife was going to me, That song means nothing. Like the lyrics are completely ridiculous. And I was like, I know, but there's something about the way he sings it, it's very joyful.

And all that, and I liked the way he did the demo. Fast forward about a year, and I remember Dr. Liu called me and he goes, I heard feels like tonight. I said, Yeah, are you happy with it? Like, did did we do a good job for you? And he goes, you know, those weren't the real lyrics. I said, Well, what were they? He goes, those were just scratch lyrics. I said, Wait a second, we recorded scratch lyrics? Like they were just like placeholder lyrics, and yet we kind of got it somehow.

You know, and but it I told my wife this and she was like, I told you they didn't mean anything. But like sometimes it means something. Like you don't really know why. Like I couldn't put my finger on it. But the way it was performed, it that that's the mystery of music, you know what I mean? Like you just don't know what's like who would have thought that, you know, stairway to heaven would have meant anything to anybody. So I mean again, that's why you have to sometimes, you know.

Jack Holtzman's book, Follow the Music, is a great book to read. Because it's just about letting the music take you, not trying to insert yourself too much into it sometimes. Like, almost like Phil Jackson coached the Lakers. Just let the game flow. You know, don't call too many timeouts. And I think I've gotten better at that as my career went on. Like, not inserting myself too much into the process. Like, I'll just let it go. Like, it feels like tonight I remember going.

I don't know, man. I just like this. I'm not gonna overanalyze it. You know, Clive didn't really pay attention to that song that much. And it was kind of like it then it became a big hit. You're just like laughing because you go, What the hell? You know? But then there's other songs that you just go, This song blows and it becomes a big hit. Like I I had a song Bad Girlfriend with Theory of a Dead Man. And it's one of their bigger songs. And the opening line is my girlfriend's a dick magnet. That's the opening line, right? And I said to Tyler, that sucks, that one.

Brian Funk (36:43.592)

you

Hb (36:46.856)

That I'm not doing a song with my girlfriend, so Dick Magnum, as the opening line. And he goes, Well, my girlfriend wrote this opening line. I said, I don't care. Like, that's cheesy. It's like his biggest song. So, like, you just don't know what you know. That's why our we our batting percentage is if you're batting 200, 300, you're like in the Hall of Fame, you know? So again, that's why I did so many records every year. I did 10 albums a year for a while.

Brian Funk (36:58.344)

Yeah.

Hmm.

Brian Funk (37:08.444)

Yeah.

Hb (37:15.421)

My percentage went up because I had more shots at the plate. I had more st I had more hits, you know, like like if you only produce one album a year, you're depending on maybe three or four songs to be hits out of one album. If you produce ten albums a year, you have a hundred and twenty songs. Now you your odds just went up quite a lot. So Ahmed Erdogan always said you can't do this unless you're at the table. You can't play the game. So you gotta be at the table. So I always said

Brian Funk (37:19.592)

Mm-hmm.

Hb (37:43.773)

Hey, if we have the songs, recording it's gonna be easy. Let's just go and record them. Like we can if I believe in the songs, I'm not too worried about the recording process. I'll take care of the vocals. Guys, let's bang out the album, you know? And that's what we did. And bands they were happy, you know, they had hits. So, you know, I kind of like was the first one to really do that. The speed recording. Almost I called it like we were just we would take every project, and we didn't say no to anything. In fact, producers were pissed at us.

They would call their managers would call my manager, go, Howard said yes to that project. He has no time to do it. And my manager go, he's gonna do it. Like the next project. Howard said yes to this project. He's doing four projects. And I said, Don't turn anything down. We're gonna do them all. We're gonna find out, we're gonna. In fact, we were so vicious at the time. I remember it was so full of like hits that I would say, I wanna like crush every producer. That's was my mentality. Like you get into that zone where you just wanna win. So you're almost like a

sports figure, like a you feel like you're in the in a sports game, you know. And you have to have that ego to do this. It's too competitive, you know? It's too hard. You wanna go into the studio every day and go, I'm gonna like fucking win, you know? And I'm not letting so and so take that record from me. I'm doing that record, you know? And I'll do it somehow. We'll open two studios, which is what we did. I'll be doing the vocals here while you're recording the f next record over there, you know.

Or I'll be a pre pro while you're doing the recording here and I'll be doing the vocal you know, we were just flying around different studios. That's why I built a vocal booth in my house, so I could keep doing vocals as fast as I could do them while Mike kept recording projects. It was crazy, you know. I can't do that anymore because bands are on tour. It's just hard to do multiple projects at once. You can't like you're stuck you're basically at the tour at the whim of their touring schedule.

In fact, everything I do is based on their ban I have to get their touring scheduled to p to schedule studio time with artists, you know. But I get it, that's where they make their money. You know? Not making it from Spotify, that's for sure. And nothing against Spotify, but you know what I mean, it's a different ballgame. It's singles.

Brian Funk (39:45.82)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:53.562)

Yeah, well, yeah, that's, they have to make a career out of it too. So, but I wonder if that approach also makes the decision-making a little more instinct, instinctive where you kind of trusting your gut and you're moving forward, making decisions and probably learning a lot more in the process by going through the process.

Hb (39:58.82)

Yeah.

Hb (40:07.855)

Absolutely.

Hb (40:14.469)

See, that's a big point. This is a really good point I used to point out to the artists. Because you're doing lots of records, every band you're working with is bringing something to the table that you didn't know about. It's new information. Like we would do records, and the bands would bring in some sitars. I remember there was an electric sitar, a choral, and I was like, my God, I love this thing. Like I would never have even thought about that if I hadn't worked with that band. And then we did the All American Rejects, and one of the guys played mandolin on one of the songs on Move Along.

I was Mandal, yeah, the mandolin's so cool. Let's use that on this, you know. Or the, you know, a band will come in and go, I don't want to do this third harmony. I want to go parallel force. And I'd be like, I can't do parallel force. Bach would kill me. And he goes, No, we're gonna do parallel force. And I would be like, okay, let's try some parallel force. And I was like, hey, you know, that's actually kind of cool. Like I didn't think of that, of doing that, or let's flip the the sixth to the third underneath. Let's try that. And what I would say is you know, but with one band, you're limited to like a couple guys.

Brian Funk (40:56.583)

You

Hb (41:13.624)

Here where there's people coming through the studio constantly, there's new information constantly. And I felt that that was a really big part of how we learned quickly. You know, the bands were really, really back then really good at stuff because they had to be. There wasn't as much fixing of it. You know, there was a at around two thousand eight, two thousand nine, I remember the bands got worse because the studio they realized they started buying their own Pro Tools rigs. And then, you know, they realized,

To really play the drums. I can program this whole song, or you know, I can loop all this kind of stuff. The stuff we were doing in the studio, but they were better at we used to do all live rehearsals for every project before we even went in the studio. You know, the the at mates over in North Hollywood. So they'd set up on a sound stage and I would sit with a pointer point at a chalkboard. Verse, chorus, verse, chorus, you like that kind of thing, and just kind of go through the songs. But then it gradually went into better demos and better demos and better demos.

And the artists became technocrats. You know, they start writing songs. They started worrying more about Pro Tools. Their songwriting went like this, you know, 'cause you're like, can you write a song? Hey man, I don't really want to write a song, but I want that new plug-in you're using. And I'm like, yeah, but that's not gonna help you help us. Like you need to write songs. I don't care about the plug-in. That's my problem. Like, you know, your problem is to tell me what happened today emotionally. You know? Sit on the edge of this couch and write about your your girlfriend that you just broke up with, you know.

That's what I need. So it just but then, you know, you can't help it. It's kind of becomes like a video game in a little way to the artists. Like they love being in front of the computer, you know. The artists I work with that do the least amount of Pro Tools work are sometimes the best songwriters. You know. They're spending more time on the lyrics and the melodies. So, you know, but that's you can't stop that from happening. It's just a natural progression of things, you know.

Brian Funk (43:08.699)

Hmm. That's interesting though, because you would think it would help in a way because you're creating stuff, you're arranging it, you're playing around with it in new ways on the computer. But yeah, the story gets left out and all. guess you wind up crafting your program kick drum for four hours a night.

Hb (43:22.91)

Where's the story?

Hb (43:27.592)

It's left out.

Hb (43:31.476)

Yeah. I it's funny, I do a lot of these type of things we're doing now. with quick Q and A's from the audience, right? And the audience is always the same questions. You know, I really want to know what the guitar sound on my chemical romance was. You gotta tell me what it was. Okay, so this is what we did, you know. I said, but really what made that project work was Gerard's vision and the

intensity of how those guitar players came in like it was life and death, you know? And the way I sort of got them to rearrange a lot of the material, got, you know, I put it in a form that worked, you know, an easy to hear form. And that's I don't want we don't want to hear about that. We want to know what was the EQ on the kick drum. Like, my God. Like you guys are fucked. Like if you can't understand what is going on here.

Like if you go see a bad movie, it's because the script sucked. It's not because the acting sucked or the you know, you know, the special effects sucked. I mean you could see a great movie that costs look look at all look at those two movies, obsession or whatever those two really cheap movies are out right now, those two horror films, and they're doing great. They didn't cost anything. Because the the so the story's great, you know? And and the and and the vision's great. So that's what's really important. I went to the songwriter's hall of fame.

Taylor Swift was inducted two two three weeks ago in New York City, and she had Steven Spielberg inductor, which was really amazing. And she said, I wanted someone to induct me who knows how to tell stories better than I can tell stories. That's what it's about. You know, she knows Taylor Swift. She's not an idiot, you know. Like, I've got to tell stories. The rest of it, I'm telling you, Taylor Swift is not sitting in front of a computer making Pro Tools. I can almost guarantee that. She's

trying to create a vision that she wants her audience to hear. Now Jack Antinoff is probably doing that, you know, or other guys are, but like the there's it's so much more important. And by the way, I had to learn this. This didn't come naturally to me. Like I like the technical part. I'm an engineer. I'm an aerospace engineer. I loved all the dials and the stuff. I was like at home in that world, but I had to unlearn all that. You know, I had to kind of like

Hb (45:52.88)

knock it out of my head and just go, okay, what do I'm feeling what do I feel right now? That's more I'm selling feelings here. That's what my trade is, you know, like it's not selling perfection at all. What is somebody when somebody hears a fly leaf song, what are they hearing? You know, it's it's Lacey's ability to to get across her spiritualness. That's what people are relating to. And Gerard's vision of how he looks at the world.

You know, or p or Sonny's vision of how he looks at the world. That's what people they they don't may not know that on a subconscious level, but that's what our job is. And Spielberg as a movie director, at least on his really good films, knows that better than anybody. You know, like again, that's what business we're in. You can't let you can't lose sight of that.

Brian Funk (46:44.718)

Yeah, because without that, they wouldn't be asking about the guitar tones. And with it, it almost wouldn't matter if you did a totally opposite guitar tone or kick drum, they'd be asking about that because it's just, that's how the story is created. That's how the feelings are made.

Hb (46:51.035)

There you go.

Hb (47:03.94)

Yeah. Michael's I always say to the bands, Do you want us to bring our Les Paul or should we use your Les Paul Junior? Or should we bring our teller I I don't give a shit, but bring it who cares? If you don't go up there in the studio and play like it's the last day on earth, it's not gonna fucking matter what you play. So you gotta play I always tell my singers when you go in that vocal booth, don't worry about pitch, don't worry about timing, nothing. Just deliver for me

the energy and the s and the make me believe what you're singing. If I don't believe it, we're fucked. The listener's not gonna believe it. You're not gonna send them a a synopsis of the song, you know. this is what I was really trying to say. None of that happens. You better get that across. That's why again the great the greats, the Beatles, the Taylor Swifts, the Zeppelins, I mean the you know all the be I can name a million hit records, you know.

And if you can't write it like Whitney Houston couldn't write, then you get a good song. You know? It's better to get outside songs if you can't write than try to write if you can't write. If you can't write, think you can write. You're really in trouble, you know, because you've talked yourself into it. It's like Dunning Krueger's bias, you know, you think you're an expert at something, but you're too stupid to not know you're an expert at something. So, you know, that's something I run into in the studio all the time with writers.

It's like I just wrote this great song. Okay, you know, well, I have a great song that someone else wrote that is a really a great song. Like this is something that will connect with your audience. I don't want to do it. Like this song I I just wrote this song yesterday and you read it, you're like, my god, this is about nothing at all. Just because you felt good writing it doesn't mean it's good. You know? Like that's just what you felt. Like you have to get that across to the audience. It's a hard pill for artists to swallow sometimes.

So I don't know. If we all had this the answer, you could put it into your AI and it would tell you how to write a great song, but it still hasn't done

Brian Funk (49:10.234)

Yeah, yeah, thankful.

Hb (49:12.043)

Suno is funny as hell too, 'cause that's like you can put as many prompts as you want in that thing and it still writes garbage. I just read that Spotify took down like seventy five million songs today. Did you see that?

Brian Funk (49:19.533)

you

Brian Funk (49:23.672)

I've been seeing that from a lot of them. Tidal was recent, right? They just totally said none of it. I'm wondering where they're going to draw the line, how much AI assistance they'll allow. Because I imagine there's got to be a lot and it varies.

Hb (49:26.777)

Yeah.

Hb (49:44.898)

Well everybody uses it and even in my world. You know, they may not admit it, but they do, you know. And that's like a third rail that you really don't want to admit that. But the artists, I've I mean I won't say who it is, but I know the artists use it, I wouldn't say to write songs, but to help with the demos. You know? That's actually a really good use of it because you're just trying to save time and get something generated quickly. But in the real world in the studio, we don't use it.

And not because of any other reason, but it's better to have somebody play it. Sounds better. It's a human, you know.

Brian Funk (50:21.574)

Yeah. And, uh, yeah, I could see for generating some ideas. mean, sometimes I'll go to a thesaurus or I'll go to something. If I'm looking, if I have a certain topic in mind for a song, I might want just words that have to do with outer space. And then I'm looking for kind of just ideas to pull off of, um, and that I think can be very useful, but yeah, as far as, um,

Hb (50:42.177)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:49.062)

actually stringing together full ideas. Hasn't really been that interesting. And something happens, I guess as soon as we realize it's been generated that we just stop caring too.

Hb (51:02.238)

Yeah, it's we're again we're trying to connect with another human is what makes it feel good. And my again, my real estate friends are convinced that being myopic about it, like, it's all gonna take over. You're just like seeing it from your perspective and I'm like, Nope, it's not gonna take over because the AI is not gonna go out and play the whiskey tonight. And that's where the rubber meets the road, you know? So you're

Brian Funk (51:25.401)

Yeah.

Hb (51:30.153)

band is still gonna have to go out there and tour. I'm interested to see how some of these AI movies work. Like I know there s somebody's making one with that girl who they claim is like AI actress, like they're film they're actually gonna make a full on AI film. I just don't see anybody really caring, I mean, about it. I mean it's almost like watching a cartoon in a way, you know, or animation.

Brian Funk (51:49.445)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (51:56.26)

Yeah, not even quite because I think one of the first things we say when we hear a song that strikes us is, who is this? Who we want to know about the person. And we want to get the story behind the story. And there's none of that. I think back to being a teenager and wearing flannels and ripped jeans because I love Nirvana, grunge, you know, all that stuff. That's not going to happen.

Hb (52:05.237)

Exactly.

Hb (52:11.675)

Absolutely. There's none of it. But the creators

Hb (52:22.717)

yeah. I went to my my camp show, like I saw him at Dodger Stadium. I hadn't seen them play in a long time, but the merch line was three deep all the way out to the ring road. And I was just like, my god. Like like I was kind of unaware of how big it got just because I'm blo sort of still locked in the studio doing things. But

Brian Funk (52:24.52)

It was so much more than...

Brian Funk (52:28.965)

Mm-hmm.

Hb (52:47.113)

People have bought into them so much that you can never imagine an AI doing that. Or or what's that crazy microtonal band? you know.

Brian Funk (52:55.097)

yes, the costumes.

Hb (52:57.649)

Yeah. Hey, I couldn't come up with that. You know? So I always say that there's your limits right there. Like, you know, but it's so funny because that's become something that my session friends who play in Sunset all Sunsets, they're always doing sessions for movies. Now, like Hans Zimmer and they all want microtonal things now. Because it's like of the moment, you know what I mean? Like so like people are buying microtonal guitars and all that. So I don't know. I don't mind it actually. I think it's kinda neat.

Brian Funk (52:59.957)

Nah.

Brian Funk (53:21.541)

Yeah.

Hb (53:27.558)

I don't think it if I'm not really sh yeah. Maybe our ears will adjust to that.

Brian Funk (53:27.845)

It's interesting. In electronic music too, there's a lot of that going on with very interesting, because I guess a lot of that kind of music is very sound design driven and it's just another way to make the sounds a little weird, a little different.

Hb (53:43.879)

Yeah.

Hb (53:47.376)

Yeah. I i and it's funny, I think that's kind of why like you know, EDM worked because you had DJs coming out and showing up and you could watch the DJ. I think without the DJ, I don't think the music would have caught on. But they became personalities, those guys, you know. I was a huge fan of that Swedish guy, guy who killed himself. what's the name again? Eviv Avici, yeah. I loved his stuff.

Brian Funk (54:05.721)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:11.417)

Mm-hmm. Vinci was it? Or... Vici, Yeah. yeah. Mm-hmm.

Hb (54:17.316)

and so well put together and you know it's very sad. But yeah.

Brian Funk (54:24.355)

Yeah. Are you seeing any sort of musical revolts to this kind of stuff? Like things have become very slick and you can generate things that sound, you know, good. are we finding, I'm wondering if we're going to start seeing us kind of looking for the human side of things.

Hb (54:45.709)

I I haven't seen it.

No, it's a and I think it's just because we don't sign bands like that. So we sign bands that are not young bands, they're like bands that have had track records and they're used to doing things the way they do them. And that's like I would say their recording vision is with what happened between two thousand and two thousand and ten. That's where they were signed. So none of think about that stuff. You know, I d I don't just don't say it, you know. Not yet.

I'm sure I will at some point, like some new band. But even some new bands that have been signed, there's a band on Mercury, I can't remember their name now, but they came to me to produce and I just couldn't do it. I was busy with shit. And they were it sounded like the old American rejects a little bit. And it was, you know, I asked the AR guy, they really played all this, right? They're Yeah, you play, yeah, they'll come up and play for you. And I was like, good, okay, but I just couldn't do it. But it was current encouraging to hear that that was them playing. I do think the musicianship has gotten better in some ways.

Some people have learned how to play really well from watching i YouTube videos and have gotten really good. there's this guy Lachlan what's his name? Lachlan Lockheed or something. He's a B three player from Australia. my god, is this guy good? And I thought B three players had gone out the door like you couldn't find a good one. But man, there's some guys who are great. And they were guys who watched Emerson play or like Jimmy Smith or, you know, you know

you know, Oscar Peterson and they would learn from those videos watching guys and I think it's great that you have that happening. They you don't need music teachers as much, really.

Brian Funk (56:22.682)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (56:29.349)

Well, yeah, you can pull up how to play pretty much anything on YouTube, whereas when I was younger, was either you figured it out yourself or you found the guitar world that happened to have the tab for you, if you were lucky. you know, that information was, it was almost like secret. And maybe you knew a friend that had learned it and he'd pass it around.

Hb (56:36.023)

Drop your needle. Yeah.

Hb (56:44.474)

yeah.

Hb (56:54.967)

Well what's funny, I realized that when I I I played in so many cover bands before I was even an Aboriginal band. And I knew how to play every song back in the seventies, eighties and I could play anything. Somebody would say, yell a song out to me. I used to play beauty shows, what do you call it? fashion shows. So I'd sit at the piano and I would just play song after song after song. But I never played the songs right. I only played what I thought the song was. And now when I go online and look at it,

Brian Funk (57:11.695)

pageants kind of thing. OK.

Yeah.

Hb (57:23.585)

Like he used play Easy Lover, right? And I would play it and I was like, this is this, you know, like B flat, C, D minor, and like and I'm looking at it, Well, wait, it's not that. Like, there's like some major sevenths in there. they actually go to A minor once in a while, and then they kind of do and I was like, Man, I was way off. But in a strange way, it didn't affect anybody 'cause the melody was still the melody. And, you know, like I hashed it I you know, I I murdered the songs a lot, you know, but nobody really cared.

So, you know, now of course when you hear a guitar player play like a a a Van Halen song, they literally play no for note, you know. They don't miss anything. So I'm not sure if that's good or bad. I don't know. You know, it's probably not it's probably not either, actually.

Brian Funk (58:00.453)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:08.874)

It proves your point though about the melody and the lyric and the vocal. Really, like that's what we're listening for. And even the harmonization under it is secondary.

Hb (58:14.56)

Yeah.

Hb (58:18.603)

So we listen to. Yeah, it's about the story. And it's, you know, I think that's if you were the your original question is when did it really snap into place for you? And I think that's when it snapped into place. When I internalized that and really believed it and didn't just say, okay, it's about the vocal. But I would actually stop projects and go, No, we don't have the songs. You know, no, we have to take a break. We're only gonna do half the record. You're gonna have to write the other half.

So when you start making those hard decisions, I remember there was one record I did, Wubistanks The Reason, which is one of my bigger tracks. We didn't have a first single. And I remember I got a call from the record company at Mercury, and he goes, they went, are you happy with the record? I said, It's a great record, but we don't have a first single. Well, wait a minute, we're releasing it like in next month. I said, You're asking me to tell you what I really think. We don't have the first single. So they went and did a song called Out of Control.

which is the first single. But we needed that song. And that's when I remember my feelings about songs became really crystallized because it worked, you know, like it worked. So I started believing in it. I went like, yeah, man, I'm definitely on the right track here. I heard Youth of the Nation for the first time or alive for POD records. And I remember thinking, those lyrics matter. They matter. I don't care what they do after that. The story this guy's telling

The opening line, the last day of the rest of my life. I wish I would have known because I would have kissed my mama goodbye. It's money. Like, that's money. I could visualize it, you know? And it's about school shootings, and he tells this whole story. And then the band does something different. They t they they make a big picture. We are the youth of the nation. Then he goes back to telling a personal story again. Then he goes back to the big picture. And it's just a to me, it was a masterpiece of songwriting.

And I called my manager up and I said, I can't fuck this song up either. Like this is so good that like I could do anything, it's gonna work. And then we had fun with it because we knew it was good. Like I remember that Marcus, the guitar player, was like, I think it's gonna be one of our biggest songs. So I'm like, Yeah, it is. Let's put some big toms in it, let's put some Tim Finnies in it, let's just go full on b kids choir and the you know, like let's go for it because we know the song's great. We're just gonna have fun. So that's when you're working with like

Hb (01:00:44.509)

two loaves of bread under your arms, like you got the whole thing, you know? You can't screw it up. That that's a producer's dream is to have stuff like that. You know? I remember I was talking to Richie Podler, who produced Three Dogs, Three Three Dor Three Dog Night. He was a because I had done some records in the studio and he was an old guy at the time and all. And I said, what did you think when you heard Joy to the world? And he said, well the band hated it. They were like, who wants to write up a song about a bullfrog? And

I'm not saying we're not singing songs about bullfrogs. He goes, But I knew that song was a hit. Like that lyric was so good. And it was about, you know, a bullfrog. But then the chorus was Joy to the World. Then it's back about the frog again. Then it's back about joy to the world. He goes, it couldn't miss. So that night he went in and played the drums, he played all the instruments, and he just had the singers come in and sing it. And it went and won the Grammy for Song of the Year, Record of the Year. So but those are the kind of things that you just pray you get them, you know?

So I'm not okay. My chemical romance was a song like that. I remember hearing that I'm going, my god, that's the whole project right there. Like we can't fuck this up. That guy singing that lyric, I'm not okay, is money. You know? And when you're in that zone as a producer, it's such a great feeling. Because you're so you're connected to the audience, you're connected to the artist, you're connected to yourself. Your team is running on a hundred, everyone's on eleven, or whatever you want to say.

You c you know, you just have to enjoy the moment. Like when you're winning the Super Bowl, you have to enjoy it because it may not come back again. You know, I remember when I was nominated for Grammys for Producer of the Year, I said to my wife, I just want to remember what this feels like because I know it's temporary. Like I know that my career has an arc. I just know it. You know. as been said before, it's like in the beginning of your career is who's Howard Benson? Then it's get me Howard Benson.

Then it's get me the next Howard Benson. Then it's who's Howard Benson? That's your career arc. That's the circle, right? So when you're at that point, you just want to re feel it and remember it because it's so hard to do this job. You know, I was just so thankful that that I had some hit records and all that. Made them. And my kids, you know, have a legacy for my kids to, you know, keep going with. That's why I'm not selling my royalties, because my kids are in the music business and they love.

Brian Funk (01:02:45.06)

Full circle.

Hb (01:03:11.426)

That whole part of it. They love, you know, watching the mechanism behind all of it. What's behind the curtain, the guy pulling the the levers, you know, like how does it all work? And it's only gotten more complicated. Way more complicated, collecting money for the stuff. I mean, that's a whole nother part of the music business. We could have another two hour conversation about that. You know, if you're well, yeah, if you're not getting paid, what are you doing? I mean you gotta get, you know, this is your job.

Brian Funk (01:03:30.18)

Right.

Hb (01:03:38.06)

A lot of artists and producers go to me, well, I don't make any money doing this. Fuck Spotify. Fuck all these guys. Okay, do you have a do you have an account with ASCAP? What's that? do you have a publishing company? No. do you collect the money from Sound Exchange? I didn't sign up for that yet. Well, okay, so you're bitching and moaning to me about this, and yet you have none of your accounts set up.

So of course you're gonna complain, you know? Like you have to set it up. I know it's hard, I get it. Setting up a BMI account is harder to get it's easier to get a driver's license to get a BMI account set up. If you look at their paperwork, it's insane. You know? Like you have to prove you're a US citizen and send them passports and all kinds of stuff. And I can see an artist not wanting to do that stuff. There's a real big barrier to entry when it comes to collecting your money in our business. It's not fair to the artist, but once you get it right.

Then you'll start seeing street you know, i y you know what neighboring rights are? Half the people I know don't collect neighboring rights. In fact most of the people I know don't collect neighboring rights. So, you know, there's a lot. There's a lot of stuff.

Brian Funk (01:04:50.305)

Hmm. What are neighboring rights?

Hb (01:04:54.262)

Neighboring rights are, if you're an American record producer, there's certain countries that will pay you your royalties based on certain aspects of the record, whether you in Canada, for example, if you produce a Canadian record that has Canadian artists, which I do, Three Days Grace, Theory of a Dead Man, Phoebe Fifi Dobson, then you are entitled to a portion of the royalties paid from that country, but you can't get it unless you sign up with a company that does neighboring rights.

So if you're not signed up with that, I I have a company called Premier Music that you that's in Canada and they collect my neighboring rights. So is it a big check? It's about ten thousand bucks a year, my neighboring rights. So it's a good check, you know? So I wouldn't get that if I didn't know anything about it. Sound exchange. Half the producers I know don't collect sound exchange. What is sound exchange? It's all internet radio. Anything gets played on the internet, for example, Sirius XM or Pandora.

They pay only through sound exchange your producer royalties. They bypass the record company. That's what's great about them. You don't have to recoup anything. So if your record gets on Sirius Octane, they pay $35 per spin. That's a lot. You're not paying them, they're paying you. So they're paying the artist. But if you don't have a deal with the artist that says to the artist, Howard is entitled for his percentage, pay him directly.

Sound exchange will collect the money and send it right to the artist. It will not send it to you. So plenty of p of producers are going, how come I don't make more money on this airplace stuff? Well, first of all, you don't get paid on terrestrial radio, so forget that. But you do get paid on internet radio, so you better have a sound exchange account. What's sound exchange? You know, by the way, sound exchange is a lot of money if you have hit records. A lot of money. It can be a quarter to a half of your income just from that. So you know

I've done plenty of these type of conversations for Drexel University where I went to school. They have the music business. I don't even talk about music with them. It's all about this stuff. Because the kids don't know how to c they don't know anything about it. You know. Like they want to get in the music business but don't know how to collect their money. You know. What's an LOD? Better have an LOD with the artist that you just produced or else the artist is gonna be paying you your royalties. You don't want that. Good luck chasing the artist around for a hundred years, you know.

Brian Funk (01:06:55.875)

Yeah.

Hb (01:07:14.941)

You want Sony Records to pay you your money. So you do a letter of direction. What's a letter of direction? Well, you want a non refund a non-revocable one so they can't take it back. You want Sony to pay you your money forever. You know? You don't want the artists absconding with it when they go sign with another record company. So that's again the details. And you a good lawyer can help you with that, but a lot of artists don't want to pay a lawyer. So they don't get any of this stuff done.

Brian Funk (01:07:41.252)

Yeah, it's a very unknown part of everything. And it's so few people are getting to that point where it even matters that, you know, it's not like you're stepping into your office and everyone knows about all these things and can tell you about it. And you can talk to your union rep and have like all this information broken down.

Hb (01:07:53.812)

Yeah.

Hb (01:08:02.662)

Yeah.

Hb (01:08:06.555)

No. Well even the musicians union's a whole other thing. If you play on somebody's record and you're a side man, you're actually due if you belong to the local forty seven, then you should be able to be paid if you went through the union your money forever. For like for on the reason I played the intro, ding ding ding ding ding, right? That is money that I get paid every year from the musicians union as a residual. Now that was something that

Brian Funk (01:08:28.024)

there.

Hb (01:08:35.313)

Thankfully my management knew about that and s we got to do those contracts. But a lot of people don't do that stuff. They go, I don't want to do anything with the union. Well, okay, don't do anything with the union. You're not gonna get paid for the rest of your life. But it's up to you. I'm not mad at people who don't do that. Believe it or not, if you don't do that, it's more money for me.

Because they pay you based on there's a certain amount of money per song. So if you're the keyboard player, you get them all. If there's a keyboard player in the 20s sections string, they get you split it. So if they don't want to get their money, okay. You know, don't get it. But that's stupid, right? And then you can't bitch and moan about it. If I was an artist, a mid level artist, I would be signed up for every single thing because if you added all of them together, you can make a good living. You know, it's not just one thing.

Like we're in a we're a business of pennies, right? Like we get paid point one three cents per Spotify or something like that. It takes a long time for that to add up into anything. But if you put that with your sound exchange and your neighboring rights and your publishing and your musicians union and then the your AF a s AFM AFTRA stuff for vocals, all that stuff can add up to something. But, you know, people just don't want to do it for some reason.

Brian Funk (01:10:03.446)

Well, yeah, I guess that's been the story the whole time of the music industry, A lot of that. People not getting paid. Yeah.

Hb (01:10:09.711)

Well, that's the sad thing about our business. You have to sign up. They just don't pay you. That's where it gets that's where our business is a bit fucked up. You know, it's always been like that. Like you said, like people are just not gonna pay you your publishing money. You better sign up to get it. You know, you would think they would pay you because you earned it. If you have a hit song on the radio and you earned a half a million bucks on it, you're not getting it. Unless you sign a publishing agreement, you know, have a BMI account and

Brian Funk (01:10:13.698)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:19.586)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:10:26.283)

Yeah.

Hb (01:10:39.641)

Make sure you audit, as Irving Azov said, my f first boss at at Warner Brothers. I ran into him like right after I had a hit with POD. I ran to him at the Staples Center. And I said to Irving, Hey Irving, like I finally had a hit record. Like I was so proud to tell him because he was like my first guy I worked for in the music in the record business. And this first thing he goes is, Audit the fuckers. And he was right. We audited them and there was all this money that

The record company didn't pay us. They cheated us on their foreign royalties. So yeah, I still audit record companies with Papa Roach. We're auditing Universal again for the third time. And guess what? There's gonna be money there. You know? So it's just the way it is. It sucks.

Brian Funk (01:11:29.034)

Yeah. Yeah, that's a shame. But it's good you're spreading that around, though, letting people know, speaking to the kids in college and giving them.

Hb (01:11:40.299)

The kids in college are really important because that's you realize that when they get ten years into their career they're much smarter about it. You know. They're they've you know, remembered what somebody said to them about this stuff. So yeah, I think it's really important. If they still in the music business, but who knows. Anyway, I'm kind of at a like stop. I have to get stopped in a minute. Did we cover everything?

Brian Funk (01:11:57.834)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:12:04.096)

Yeah, I think so. This has been, I mean, there's plenty to talk about obviously, but it's been great speaking with you. We should just mention, yeah, a couple of spots. It'll be no problem. We want to tell people to check out Judge and Jerry records, you know, make sure we get that in there. So we'll send them that way.

Hb (01:12:13.879)

You you have to edit a lot.

Okay. I hope it didn't get confusing.

Yeah. And you'll send us something that ch just like a we can look at. This this is this a print thing or how do you guys do it? Like I don't know, I've any idea.

Brian Funk (01:12:29.174)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:33.762)

Well, it goes on the podcast platforms and then YouTube. That's pretty much it. All there. Yeah, if you want to see something before it goes out, I can certainly get that for you. No, no, I think it was all gold. Yeah, another gold record for you.

Hb (01:12:39.466)

okay. Great.

Hb (01:12:45.036)

Okay.

Hb (01:12:52.307)

I don't think I said anything wacky.

Hb (01:12:57.727)

Okay.

We didn't talk about anything political, so

Brian Funk (01:13:04.896)

Nah, nah, that's usually a good thing.

Hb (01:13:08.158)

Yeah, yeah. Would have stay away from that live wire.

Brian Funk (01:13:11.618)

Yeah, I really do appreciate you taking the time to talk and being so open about everything. I learned a ton. You've had such an awesome career and I get a really clear sense of why speaking to you. And I can tell there's a lot more success to come.

Hb (01:16:03.3)

thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Okay.

]]>Song and Vocal First with Howard Benson - Music Production Podcast #432Reversing Audio and Creative Ways to Incorporate it into Your MusicTutorialsBrian FunkMon, 24 Aug 2026 15:14:32 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/reversing-audio52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a8c5f4ad6a0787641babbd4Learn. Ask. Do: Reversing Audio

This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Reversing Audio.

  • Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

  • Ask - Participate in the discussion and ask questions.

  • Do - Apply the lesson in a short activity. Get feedback and ask follow-up questions.

Join the Music Production Club and attend our meetings live.

Your Music Production Club membership gives you access to:

  • My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

  • The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

  • Live Meetings Over Zoom - Meet with me and the MPC community online! Make music together, share tips and techniques, and give and receive feedback on your music.

  • Music Production Club Exclusives - Ableton Live Packs, Templates, Samples, Presets, and more that are only available to members of the MPC.

  • Educational Materials - My Video Course, Books, and Documents to help you level up your music.

  • Our Online Community - Share your music with and get support from our thriving Discord community. and Monthly Live Meetings over Zoom.

  • Bonus Materials - Free stuff from my store as well as gifts from some musical friends!

  • Special Offers - MPC members get 50% off at my store and special discounts from music companies.

Join the Music Production Club! ]]>Reversing Audio and Creative Ways to Incorporate it into Your MusicMake Your Own Reverbs with Ableton Live’s Hybrid ReverbTutorialsBrian FunkWed, 19 Aug 2026 12:49:05 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/make-your-own-reverbs52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a85a5ab7febc50cddc1e5a9Learn. Ask. Do: Make Your Own Reverbs

This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Make Your Own Reverbs.

  • Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

  • Ask - Participate in the discussion and ask questions.

  • Do - Apply the lesson in a short activity. Get feedback and ask follow-up questions.

Join the Music Production Club and attend our meetings live.

Your Music Production Club membership gives you access to:

  • My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

  • The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

  • Live Meetings Over Zoom - Meet with me and the MPC community online! Make music together, share tips and techniques, and give and receive feedback on your music.

  • Music Production Club Exclusives - Ableton Live Packs, Templates, Samples, Presets, and more that are only available to members of the MPC.

  • Educational Materials - My Video Course, Books, and Documents to help you level up your music.

  • Our Online Community - Share your music with and get support from our thriving Discord community. and Monthly Live Meetings over Zoom.

  • Bonus Materials - Free stuff from my store as well as gifts from some musical friends!

  • Special Offers - MPC members get 50% off at my store and special discounts from music companies.

Join the Music Production Club! ]]>Make Your Own Reverbs with Ableton Live’s Hybrid ReverbModern Music Education and Overcoming Creative Challenges with Dennis DeSantis - Music Production Podcast #431podcastBrian FunkMon, 17 Aug 2026 04:01:31 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/dennis-desantis52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a81bf638989270f4f6eb055Dennis DeSantis is a composer, percussionist, sound designer, author, and educator. He is a professor of Music and Technology at Eastman School of Music at the University of Rochester, where he is developing an all new BM in Music Creation and Technology. Dennis worked as Head of Music Learning at Ableton, and wrote Making Music 74 Creative Strategies for Electronic Music Producers. 

Dennis and I spoke in depth about his work at Eastman School of Music. We shared thoughts on finishing projects and overcoming creative challenges. Dennis reflected on his work at Ableton and how it has prepared him for his newest chapter in cutting edge music education.

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.295)

Dennis, welcome to the Music Production Podcast. So good to have you.

Dennis (00:08.814)

Yeah, good to be here. Nice to see you again.

Brian Funk (00:11.331)

You too. It's been a little while now. I think maybe Loop in twenty eighteen might have been the last time we crossed paths somewhere around there, but

Dennis (00:20.76)

The one in LA? We're where you at that? Okay, yeah, that must have been it then.

Brian Funk (00:22.221)

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. That was a good time until the the fires came and made it a little interesting. But what a what a great event, what a great gathering. T anytime people I'm sure you experience this in your in your classrooms, you know, just create creative people with the similar goals and interests. It just seems to elevate everybody and there's something in the air that's really nice to be around.

Dennis (00:30.488)

Yeah, that was wild.

Dennis (00:51.042)

Yeah, loop was pretty special. And I I'm you're right. I'm excited to kind of rediscover that now that I'm in classrooms with people again. There's also something about like the physicality of people in one room. I don't know what that is. It's different than the online thing, which is great because then you can meet with people who aren't near you physically. But there is something kind of special about people in a physical space. I don't know what that is. Well, part of it is like lower latency. That might help.

Brian Funk (01:07.481)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:17.901)

Yeah.

That's true. Somet sometimes maybe from doing these Zoom type calls that I do all the time I in my regular conversations I wait longer than normal before replying.

Dennis (01:21.688)

Ha ha.

Dennis (01:30.658)

Right. Like conditioned to respond to that latency. Right.

Brian Funk (01:35.467)

Yeah. So you've just completed first year, right, at the Eastman School of Music and the University of Rochester.

Dennis (01:43.938)

That's right. Yeah, I started here I think technically my contract started in July of twenty twenty five. So yeah, it's just been a almost exactly one year now.

Brian Funk (01:53.679)

Hm. And I think it's really cool what you guys are doing and it's kind of I guess academia realizing that it's not all just about stuff that happened in the past and looking in the future. So you've got music creation and technology as a major now.

Dennis (02:13.772)

Yeah, I mean it's it's a cool thing for a conservatory. In defense of the way conservatories have have done it, there's always been I mean here and at every other conservatory too, there's always been composition programs, new music ensembles. So it isn't strictly about the past. It's also about the future. But what's exciting about this program is it's it's branching into some different potential futures as well.

Yeah, which is which is very exciting for me and I hope it's exciting for for the place and the incoming students as well.

Brian Funk (02:49.581)

think it's gotta be because I teach high school English so I'm around a lot of young people who some of them are in band, they're doing the kind of traditional thing, but there are other ones that are wanna make beats. They're playing around with band lab or FL Studio or some app they have on their phone and there's really nothing there for them. There's not a lot that they can go into. It's starting to happen a little bit, but

It reminds me of how I felt as a kid. I s didn't have any of that high school band training. I was played electric guitar when I was fourteen and wanted to be in rock bands. And it was my life at that point. It was everything to me. But at school, the best I had was the talent show that we did every year. They hoped our band would make it and we didn't the first year. But it's nice to see that there's some doors opening for people that have some different angles into music.

Dennis (03:46.274)

Yeah, I think that's a nice that's a nice way to put it. Like different doors, different angles. I mean, i the reality is that I expect that a lot of the students who come into this program, I mean, and I'm speaking about in future tense because we don't actually have students yet. We won't admit the first class of students until fall of twenty twenty seven. So between now and the end of this year is when students will apply to enter next fall, not this coming fall.

But I expect that at least for a while and maybe forever, a good portion of the incoming students will be exactly like the ones that you described. They're people who are like

Deeply talented, deeply committed musicians, but in a way that doesn't involve high school music preparation, private lessons on a conventional instrument, etc. At the same time, I think there will be a strong contingent of students who are quite similar to the students that are at conservatories now. They've been studying an instrument their whole lives, playing at the highest levels, playing in all-state ensembles and things like this, but who have also found a path for creative expression.

Through music technology. So I think what's exciting is to think that the incoming cohort will likely be a mix of these two different types of students and then watching the way they bounce ideas off of each other is going to be really cool. But of course, it's a huge unknown. Like we don't really know who they're going to be until they start applying.

Brian Funk (05:10.05)

Yeah.

Right. That's a great point, how they might interact with each other, coming from a very technical background, classically trained to somebody that's more working on feel and intuition.

Dennis (05:25.803)

Right. And also the way they'll interact with this the other students in other programs who are already here. Like I'm I've been using this analogy with people around here a bit, but I'm super excited for the first ensemble that gets put together here that's like a kid with a laptop and a Baroque violinist and a jazz singer or something. Like those students are gonna feed off each other in really interesting ways and

Brian Funk (05:46.411)

Yeah.

Dennis (05:51.276)

That's what makes programs like this kind of exciting, but it's also what make, it's what made music school exciting for me too, was the way students from very different backgrounds and very different musical interests, but operating at a very high level, could come together and make something that was like better than the sum of the parts.

Brian Funk (06:05.902)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (06:10.582)

Yeah. That is exciting. I I bet there are a lot of people like that out there. I have a nephew who's going to the University of Denver, for tuba and he's deep into that and

He's learning Ableton Live. So it's funny to talk to him because he has an understanding of theory and he reads music. I don't read music. So he knows some of this stuff. And and then I talk to him about Ableton Live. And we have this cool back and forth. And it's interesting how he sees it and how he looks at it compared to how someone like me does. And it it just

Dennis (06:27.405)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (06:50.774)

And I've always said this to the people in my other classes too, like you're whatever you already know is going to feed into what you're learning here. If you have some background as a vocalist or a percussionist learning how to produce music and you might not consider yourself maybe as a drummer or someone that might use a drum machine, but you might find that you really take to it because you have some of that understanding to bring.

Dennis (07:14.313)

And vice versa. I mean, the students who come in with strong music sort of music production, whatever that means, but strong sort of technology backgrounds are also gonna get something interesting by seeing how those ideas are represented in things like notation or or how some some things that we might take for granted as being

music tech specific also exist in other centuries represented in different ways. You know, a lot of things sort of have different user interfaces, but are actually expressions of a kind of deeper, more fundamental musical idea, which I think is is kind of exciting.

Brian Funk (08:00.205)

Mm.

Dennis (08:00.684)

And then you see that from multiple perspectives. Like you maybe you were playing around with these ideas in tech, but then you realize that they existed in medieval music, or vice versa. Maybe you were playing the violin your whole life and then suddenly you're you're trying to understand how things that you were doing with your violin can be expressed in a tool like Ableton Live.

And of course it's not all that. It's not like there's a one-to-one correspondence between old music and contemporary electronic music, but there certainly are ideas that are represented in multiple ways.

Brian Funk (08:33.652)

It is neat when some of that comes up. Stuff that you think is kinda newfangled technology and then you realize, wow, look at that. I think there was a

Dennis (08:41.901)

I mean that was a huge go ahead.

Brian Funk (08:43.982)

Yeah, I was I was just to give an example, I was there was a Max for Live device, I think it was called foreplay maybe. And it was the concept of the fugue with the repr repeating melody and th but it did it with slower playheads, faster playheads all playing the same notes. And it was like, yeah, it's like what I learned in that Bach class I took at college.

Dennis (08:54.369)

Mm-hmm.

Dennis (09:05.311)

Exactly. Yeah. And a lot of these ideas they get sort of repeated and recycled, but also kind of reimagined through new new lenses and new ways of of interfacing with music. But of but again, yeah, like you said often they're they they're expressions of something that's sort of deeper.

That have historical precedence. But then if you can come in and now see it from both sides, maybe you can come up with a way of rethinking this in yet a third way, which is maybe a synthesis of the two or

creative reinterpretation or something. And that's what's exciting about, well, it's one of the many things that's exciting about it to me. Like where are people going to take this stuff once they have a deeper toolkit expressed across centuries and traditions and interfaces? And when I talk about interface here, I'm talking about sort of Ableton Live as an interface versus notation as an interface, for example.

Brian Funk (10:03.053)

Hmm. Right. It it is interesting too, young people just they grew up with this stuff. They have a kind of innate understanding of digital interfaces and how things connect. So I find with the younger students there's a lot less explaining about how to put things together. They just like, yeah, okay. They kind of go right into it. They're not afraid of it. It's not as intimidating.

Dennis (10:30.858)

Yeah, that's totally right. I taught a class last semester which was primarily, it was exclusively for graduate students. And most of them were graduate students in the film scoring program. And many of them had, well, they all had really deep experience and chops with digital audio workstations. Like the technology was not

an issue for them at all, but they had very different levels of experience with popular musics, hip-hop, electronic music. Many of them were using the DAW as a way to do sort of orchestral mock-ups.

And their their musical exposure was largely to the classical tradition, the film scoring orchestral tradition. But then for some of them, of course, they'd been growing up listening to pop and hip-hop their whole lives. But for both sides of this equation, the tech was never the problem. We didn't have to do introduction to digital audio workstations. Like they had that stuff solid.

Brian Funk (11:32.171)

Hmm. Yeah, those concepts. That's great. That gives you just kind of skip over that. Okay, let's get into it.

Dennis (11:34.9)

It was great.

Dennis (11:40.16)

Right. Exactly.

Brian Funk (11:43.276)

So you come from that more classical background, you've got that experience. how did you make your way into all of the digital electronic world that you wound up in for so long?

Dennis (11:59.565)

In a lot of ways I actually kind of made my way back to it. So yeah, I mean I have a bunch of degrees in in composition and music theory and all that. But my first interest in music making was electronics. I w I'm dating myself a little bit here, but like I had a DX7 as a child and

Brian Funk (12:20.023)

Cool.

Dennis (12:22.08)

learned my way through interfacing that with an Apple II Plus and running like basic MIDI sequencing. And I was really into music like Tangerine Dream in the 80s. So electronic music was very much kind of in the in the bedrock of what I was doing from a even before I really got interested in taking the

the conservatory study of classical music seriously. I was kind of a late comer actually to notated music. I played in school bands and stuff in high school, but I kind of faked my way through through a lot of the trickier like I didn't really study theory until I got to college.

Brian Funk (12:51.18)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (13:00.396)

Yeah.

Dennis (13:08.218)

but then kind of ate it up. I mean, I was really excited by mostly by putting names to things, to sounds that I heard, like, chords can be represented using Roman numerals, and chord progressions can be represented using progressions of Roman numerals. And this is an interesting way of exploring these sounds that had kind of been in the music that I was listening to anyway, and then getting deeper into how to express that.

stuff in notation. But yeah, in many ways it was like getting back to electronic music rather than getting to it through classical study.

Brian Funk (13:47.499)

Right. Wow. Were you programming your DX seven?

Dennis (13:51.595)

I mean, as much as anybody was, you know, it was a bit of a I'm not sure that was such a healthy environment to start with as a fourteen-year-old or something, just because interface design was not at the forefront of those people's minds. Like well, i it clearly was, but it was a very different approach to interface design. Like it was the opposite of one knob per function. It was like one knob, period. You know, the the DX7 had a data entry slider, one.

Brian Funk (13:59.2)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (14:15.883)

Yeah. That's slider. Yeah.

Dennis (14:20.478)

And I think increment and decrement buttons, but they were it was completely modal. Like what that slider controlled was the last thing you selected, which is a pretty wild way to learn your way through synthesis. But it's it was what I had. And so I certainly played with programming, but I had no idea what I was doing for for a long time. It wasn't until I really started studying, you know.

What actually does an envelope do? What does an LFO do? That I was able to make things with a little bit more intention. But yeah, if I could go back and do it, you know, with a with something that had more controls, I probably would have a very different relationship with synthesis than I do now, where I I came to those kinds of more hands-on interfaces much later.

Brian Funk (15:09.889)

Yeah, that's a notoriously brutal synth to program. I mean FM synthesis on its own, but I guess it was also that time with technology where those kind of membrane buttons were all the rave, so they felt futuristic and it incorporated a little bit of that. But

Dennis (15:27.764)

Yeah, for sure. I mean it was a kind of retro I remember thinking that it felt futuristic and it didn't occur to me at the time that one slider was not necessarily so ergonomic.

Brian Funk (15:38.379)

Yeah. But you make a good point. it was what you had. I think when back in those days especially when you couldn't just download a new plugin or you couldn't get something from Amazon and send it back if you don't like it, you you stuck with what you had no matter what and you really learned that stuff. You had you got a deep relationship with it.

Dennis (16:01.654)

For sure. And I mean part of part of it was that I was constrained financially. Like I wouldn't have been able to afford more. And part of it was that we were constrained technologically. As you said, there was no internet, there was no downloading of anything, and software was at the point then where it was like MIDI or nothing. You know, there was no you couldn't record audio into the computer. There just wasn't.

Brian Funk (16:08.288)

Yeah.

Dennis (16:30.665)

That wasn't possible. There was no digital up to audio conversion available at a consumer price, you know. I think. I don't know when the first digital recordings were happening, but they they weren't available it wasn't available to me in the 80s. So yeah, part of it was necess it was necessity a along a few different axes. And I think that you there is something to be said for that even now though. Like I think, you know, the gear acquisition syndrome.

Brian Funk (16:44.918)

Right.

Dennis (17:00.445)

is a problem. You can convince yourself that the thing you need is like one more EQ rather than digging a little deeper into the one or seven that you already have. And yeah, and it was, you know, it didn't occur to me at the time that it was kind of painful, like you said, to to program the DX7. It was just that's what you did. That's what I had. Right.

Brian Funk (17:21.344)

That's how did it. Yeah. I think it's one of the big problems we all face as the modern musician is there is just too much stuff. It was a lot easier to create something when all I had was a four track and a guitar. Like not a lot of choices. Just now start worrying about the actual music compared to now where what genre, what style, what plug-in, what samples.

Dennis (17:49.386)

I mean you can choose to to restrict yourself as well though, and that can be really powerful, you know. But it I think for me the biggest the biggest eye-opener there was identifying that gear and music were not actually the same thing. And that you could make choices about a restricted palette and make endless amounts of music using that restricted palette.

I think there's something there's a bit of a at least among like gear-focused people, it they it it's possible to sort of look down your nose at somebody who says, you know what, I I'm gonna use this same four plugins for this entire record. But that's actually no different than what you would have done in a hardware studio if all you had were four devices. I mean, if you look at

sort of foundational techno and house records, for example. These were people with limited means and extremely limited gear making whole records or whole maybe like essentially making whole genres out of what they happen to have in the studio. And there was certainly no shame in that then and there's no reason for there to be shame in it now. Like having 800 synths at your disposal doesn't mean you need to use them all.

Brian Funk (18:57.216)

Yeah.

Dennis (19:12.457)

You also don't need to delete them all, but for me, it's it's been very helpful to sort of separate creative practice from tinkering with tools. Both are like fun and rewarding, but they aren't necessarily the same thing. That being said, tinkering with tools often will spark something that turns into a musical idea, but then I have to consciously make the shift and say, okay, we're done tinkering with tools now. This particular palette.

has triggered a musical thing, let's stick with the musical thing.

Brian Funk (19:46.109)

I I think the same way and I always prioritize the music making because I think that's harder to come by to get the exciting idea. It's a lot there's a lot of fun you can have tinkering and you I can sink into that easy, I guess, because there's no risk to it where there is with if I decide I'm gonna make music today, like I don't know if it's gonna be good.

Dennis (20:10.441)

Yeah, and then you're you're really kind of it's very bold and courageous to make a piece of music that you then put out into the world. Because then you're you're expressing something, you're sharing something that you consider finished. If everything stays in sketch phase, you're you're there's no commitment. You're not committing to a thing which someone might then critique.

I mean someone could critique your sketch anyway if you share it on social media or something, but you can always fall back on the knowledge that this wasn't really the thing, an experiment.

Brian Funk (20:44.788)

Yeah. Right. Yeah, and and I I know I struggle with that. A lot of people struggle with that. Sometimes the things I'm finishing, when you put it out, it it feels like this is me as as an artist. This is my whole representation of who I am. And it might just be the one little slice that got finished. And it's such a small portion and the pressure of having that be everything.

that you are in musical form is is sometimes prevents you from doing it at all.

Dennis (21:15.773)

Y Yeah.

Dennis (21:21.139)

And I don't know how much of this is internal or a manifestation of something that comes from the outside. I mean, if you're an artist with a known sound and then you do something that's radically different than that, a fan base will have a reaction to that. I mean, I'm trying to imagine Autecker making like a pop record. What would happen? Like

People would kind of lose their minds and they would search for meaning and maybe they just wanted to make a pop record.

Brian Funk (21:46.678)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (21:54.753)

Right.

Dennis (21:58.879)

But you know, for I think for everybody there's this sense, like you said, like this is me. The thing means something. It's an expression of some kind of inner state or emotional whatever. Or maybe it just isn't. Maybe it's like these were cool sounds that happen to be put together in a cool way. there's a chord progression I like. here's a rhythmic trick that I thought was cool. They might not be, it might not be deeper than that.

But learning to let go of that is a challenge. And I don't claim that I'm good at it. Like I don't I often overthink.

Brian Funk (22:30.419)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I do too. And I like making music that is sometimes just an exploration of a thought or even like a character or or an exaggeration of how I am and how I feel or or just totally made up. And I I definitely don't like the psychoanalytical microscope being put on me for that.

Dennis (22:50.761)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (23:01.523)

Whatever that idea might have been. sometimes it's it's just the result of the play of that day. my my remedy to that is just try to do as much as possible and kind of flood the flood the stream and this way you never know what someone's gonna pick out. Fortunately most people don't pick any of it, so most of it goes unheard.

Dennis (23:22.014)

Yeah.

Dennis (23:27.402)

Right, sure. Yeah, and then you've you've built this entire kind of inner narrative and conversation and dialogue with with a listener that was entirely in your own head. And that's probably d damaging. It's probably damaging to productivity, but it's probably also damaging to mental health, like really overthinking.

Brian Funk (23:38.739)

Right.

Dennis (23:50.411)

can can get in your way. At the same time though, you want, you want to have a filter, right? You don't want to put things into the world that you don't think are expressions of at least quality. Or maybe you do. Like maybe there's maybe that's an experiment as well. Like I'm going to deliberately make the worst thing I can. I I don't want to judge, you know, if there's a if there's a valid reason for that, do it.

Brian Funk (24:16.991)

Yeah. Yeah. I that's funny you say that. I I've had that conversation in regards to content creation where there's when you start getting into the numbers and the algorithms reaction, which is really I guess just the audience watching or not, but you can find yourself doing things that maybe you don't really enjoy as much because it's gonna work and then next thing you know you have to start

Dennis (24:25.375)

Mm.

Brian Funk (24:45.567)

doing that thing now because that's what people expect of you. And that can be probably the the worst curse of all is now y yeah, you maybe you found something but now you have to do it and you don't enjoy it.

Dennis (24:58.164)

But maybe there's a w maybe there's a way to make that yet a third thing. Like we were talking about the the duality of tinkering versus music making. Maybe there's a way that content creation in the s social media algorithmic concept that you're using it can be yet a third thing and not an expression of

Tinkering or music making. Like if you need to do a thing because it's part of your income stream, maybe there's a switch you can flick in your head that says, yeah, I'm clocking into my job now. And separate that somehow from like the real creative practice.

Brian Funk (25:32.97)

Right.

Dennis (25:42.058)

There's no shame in that. Of course, it's one person and one identity, and then eventually it becomes complicated, either for an audience to sort out or for you to sort out or both. But I wonder if there's a psychological trick there to treating that as a separate stream of identity.

Brian Funk (26:03.167)

Yeah, I think so. a lot of musicians are kind of cobbling together their careers. They're doing a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and some of it is probably more what they wanna be doing and some of it might be a little more of the clocking in to the job type work. And I think that's great because now you're doing what you wanna be doing. You're using your

Dennis (26:18.921)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (26:28.159)

whether it's your creativity, your technical abilities, to pay the bills and allow you to then have the fun of doing the stuff you wanna be doing maybe a little bit more. And I think there's also a lot of people that make an art out of that part of it too. That seems to be I think the people that stick around the longest are the ones that find that nice balance where even the clocking in is sort of an artistic expression on some level.

Dennis (26:55.988)

For sure, for sure. Yeah, I mean

Thought I had a thought. I don't really have a thought, Harry. I think you expressed it. You expressed it well.

Brian Funk (27:04.123)

Mm-hmm.

I I'd have to imagine you probably run into that with students at the school, especially as time goes on. Where they if th especially if they're coming from different worlds and bringing all this stuff together and interacting with others, there's gotta be some interesting things that the young folks are gonna figure out, carving new paths.

Dennis (27:31.4)

I think that's totally true. I mean one one thing that that I noticed most of my students for the class that I taught last semester were are young early career film composers.

And in that world, you're recognizing that often what you're doing is taking direction, right? There are people above you in the hierarchy of making the film who are ultimately responsible for signing off on what you do. They're gonna have influences and creative insights and ideas that may or may not match what you're doing, but you're it's a gig. You're doing it because it's the job.

And how much you get to express your own creativity in that domain is sort of to be determined on a gig-by-gig basis. You know, if you get a job doing a score for a director who has temporary music and they want that sound, and it's very different than the kind of music that you want to make, your ability to execute that music.

is the thing that's gonna keep you on the job or not. And then it's up to you whether that's the job you want.

Brian Funk (28:44.682)

Mm.

Dennis (28:49.289)

But for early career composers in that world, you know, you might not have a lot of choice. You might need the work that will eventually, if everything goes right, spin out into a place where you're being hired for your voice rather than to fill a role.

Brian Funk (28:55.145)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:06.438)

Mm-hmm. Start to make a name for yourself in what you're doing.

Dennis (29:10.001)

Yeah, and then and then the more you do that, the more you can exhibit your own sound. You the more you can present what it is that you uniquely bring to the table. And then you start getting hired for that.

Brian Funk (29:15.85)

Mm.

Brian Funk (29:22.684)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's that's a pretty cool place to wind up where we want your music in this film. We w because of how you do your thing. But there's I know I've spoken to a lot of people that do film or even commercial work that

Dennis (29:27.881)

For sure. Right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:43.196)

almost find that to be such a relief to get that direction, to say, We need this kind of song and I've had people say to me, I don't know how anyone does any music without that. There's too many choices. I need that narrowed down for me. They thrive in it.

Dennis (29:56.67)

Yeah, for sure. That's a great it's a great creative constraint. Absolutely. Yeah, that's right. I hadn't really thought about that. But of course, w w if the if the palette is completely blank and you can do anything you want, you're you're responsible for making all the decisions. Which is why sometimes it's incredibly hard to do that. But if somebody says, No, I need this and it needs to be four minutes long, and maybe the most important constraint is the deadline, like I need it by tomorrow.

Brian Funk (30:23.572)

Yeah.

Dennis (30:26.459)

then you you have a lot of parameters that are already defined for you. And you're right, it can make it much easier to work.

Brian Funk (30:33.256)

Hmm. That's something with my class, my sampling class that I try to communicate a little bit like

I like to leave it open a little bit. Hey, look, if you are working on something already and this technique that we're talking about this week kind of fits and you wanna kinda shimmy that into the assignment, I'm all for it. But at the same time I'm also sort of saying, But keep in mind if this was your directive from your job and your gig is to make this thing, you don't get to do that. So I I do sort of leave it up to them, kinda considering what they're trying to get out of the course.

So that yeah, if you're looking for that kind of work where you're gonna be hired to do a specific type of thing, then follow these directions closely. But if you're doing this 'cause you want to expand your own creativity and expression and make your own albums and then okay. We can be a little more flexible.

Dennis (31:25.789)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dennis (31:38.121)

I think for a young person, there's a lot of power in trying on as many different things as you can. Even if you think you know what it is that you want to do, doing like the opposite of that for some amount of time is just tools in the toolkit. And then later, maybe you'll have a chance to pull one of those tools out and dust it off a little bit, and it will be completely applicable for some new situation.

Brian Funk (31:45.786)

Mm-hmm.

Dennis (32:08.034)

I mean the worst case scenario is that you never do it at all. You never use that thing again. The best case scenario is like 100% inf efficiency, I guess. So every single thing that you learn is like immediately applicable to all of your work forever, but that's not realistic either. More realistic is you try a thing.

Brian Funk (32:27.775)

Right.

Dennis (32:31.113)

And it changes you and the way you think in ways that are maybe not immediately applicable, but then sometime later you realize, wait, I actually know how to do this thing, which is perfectly usable in this context. And I wouldn't have had it otherwise because it involved doing something that at the time was kind of painful. I don't know. There's like a there's an exercise or sports metaphor in here probably about pushing muscles beyond their.

Brian Funk (32:58.666)

Right.

Dennis (32:58.889)

Of comfort and then, but then they're stronger. I don't know, there's metaphors for all this kind of thing. But when I was, yeah. Right. And but then maybe it balances you in some way that you were unaware of before. And I remember this from my undergraduate, like doing certain assignments that I was like, This is this is painful. Like I I hate this music. I never want to make something that sounds like this. But then

Brian Funk (33:04.82)

Sure, type of workout where you've never used that type of muscle. Yeah.

Dennis (33:27.803)

It's in the tool bag. You get it then. Or maybe even better, you discover something in it that you thought you hated, but which is actually kind of amazing. And then you can synthesize that into your into your techniques and even into your listening that broadens you in a in a more general purpose way.

Brian Funk (33:29.695)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (33:51.358)

Hmm. Yeah, I think that's man, I think everything in my life that I've ever become interested in was sort of a surprise. I didn't know I was gonna I I think back to I think I was in seventh grade taking a general music course in school that I hated. I absolutely hated. It was I I was like, I'm never gonna need this. I don't care, I'm not interested and the way it was taught was

not really to get kids into music. But two years later I was playing the guitar and it was the only thing I cared about anymore. So it was I never would have expected that. And it might have just been the exposure method, the the way you were introduced to it.

Dennis (34:39.229)

And then did you find that there were things from the general music class which were applicable later?

Brian Funk (34:46.172)

Yeah, actually I hate to admit it. But there was just the discussion I remember of duple and triple meter. I I actually remember thinking that was just something why am I learning this? And then learning guitar, learning songs and realizing like, this is I'm counting in threes now instead of fours and then trying to figure out what that was all about.

Dennis (34:56.627)

Sure.

Dennis (35:14.407)

I mean I think I think one of the things that helps to differentiate kind of good, I hate to effective musical educ I don't want to judge anything, but I find that music education tends to be effective when it's grounded in music rather than in sort of extra musical expressions of an idea. Like if if

The duple-triple thing didn't make sense for you until you started learning songs. But the learning songs could have happened as part of the initial introduction. Like, here are some examples of duple and triple in music that you might know. Now you have a you have a real-world expression of this thing, which is otherwise like an abstraction. And then it becomes real for people, right? And then you see, this actually is a thing.

Brian Funk (35:56.724)

Right.

Dennis (36:10.075)

And without a doubt, that's always been the most those are the lessons that have stuck with me the most. Also in music tech, like

Don't just tell me what an LFO is. Show me an amazing example of something fluctuating in a periodic way in a piece of music that I can then go back and listen to. And then I make the connection between the abstract technicality, whether it's a music theory thing or a technical thing, and its application in real music. That just always has sat for me so much better.

Brian Funk (36:25.064)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (36:45.351)

Right. 'Cause it has a purpose now. I find that's a lot of what I what I'm trying to do with students is I want to have fun first and enjoy the process. And then when they say, Hey, why's that bass going whoa whoa whoa whoa And I was like, you've just discovered LFO and now we can talk about how that's modulating the filter and

Dennis (37:07.005)

Right.

Brian Funk (37:12.005)

suddenly that stuff becomes interesting whereas if it's like, Okay guys, before you even touch the synthesizer we're gonna talk about oscillators and you wanna hear the cool noise first.

Dennis (37:20.125)

Right. Yeah, if you start with a yeah, if you start with a signal flow flow diagram, it's probably already lost. But if you start with a beautiful sound and then sort of reverse or back up into how you might make something like that, then I I feel like it's always more effective.

Brian Funk (37:29.022)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (37:41.351)

Yeah, the play part is nice. before the technical, the history, all the other stuff.

Dennis (37:51.175)

Yeah. You can always get there. You just have to give students a a reason to care.

Brian Funk (38:00.977)

I think that kind of approach helps you enjoy music and a lot of the process on so many different levels. And I'll I'll plug your book for a second. I got it right here. You're making music, which is such a great book because it's so practical. but I remember there was a chapter in there about listening to music you don't like and trying to find something about it that you can take away from it. And

For me this happened as I was getting into production and recording and I wasn't really interested in pop music for say, my own enjoyment. But when I listened to it from a production angle, I was like, wow, there's lot of really crazy stuff going on here and how does it sound so slick and clean and neat or all those things start becoming interesting. And

through that kind of lens, it's you you get a kind of I guess those things like the duple triple meter, they become interesting now. And it doesn't matter so much whether you like it from that initial kind of listener perspective, but just from the creation, the how to, how did they do that kind of way of thinking.

Dennis (39:22.77)

Yeah. I mean th the the best case scenario is that you find something to like in all music, which is probably not realistic. For most people there are just there's like an inherent visceral attraction or repulsion to things, which is not it's not necessary to overcome and

It's fine. But I think there's always something to learn from anything you hear. So if you find yourself a captive audience, for example, you're you there's music happening in a public environment that you can't escape. Right. There's two ways that you might respond to that. One might be to shut it out or like be enraged, and the other might be to be like, okay, here I am, I'm stuck.

Brian Funk (39:55.561)

Can't get away.

Dennis (40:06.727)

What can I learn from this? What's going on in this music? Like be able to do a little bit of analysis, whether it's sound analysis or rhythmic analysis or harmonic analysis, you know, how does how do these chords work? What's that sound? If it's acoustic, how do they make this? Does it sound like it's in a closed space or a far space? I mean simple things, but you everything can become a learning experience.

Brian Funk (40:24.157)

Mm.

Brian Funk (40:35.783)

Yeah, especially because music isn't something you can't close your ears and turn it off like you can close your eyes and or not taste the food. It it it's coming to you no matter what.

Dennis (40:46.439)

Right.

And even if it's not conventional music, like I love these videos that show up sometimes that are this refrigerator made the most beautiful ambient record I've ever heard. It's true, like environmental sound can be so amazing. And it it become, you know, there's a lot of music that makes use of found sound or field recordings or environmental sound. But when you're in an environment, you're hearing something.

Brian Funk (40:56.505)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (41:04.872)

Mm-hmm.

Dennis (41:16.454)

Which is why we kinda lose our minds in anechoic chambers, because there's nothing to hear and so you start hearing your own body, which is disconcerting, 'cause we're not used to that, right?

Brian Funk (41:24.061)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (41:29.925)

Yeah. It's proof there's like music everywhere, really. if you hear it as music, if you hear it at the sound as something interesting. I I was at that the Ableton headquarters in LA and Pasadena, doing a workshop last year. And we were the whole premise was to finish music. Bring something, try to finish it, we'll try to but

We one of the things I wanted them to try it out was going outside, walking around and incorporating some of those environmental sounds and noises and things that aren't really music. And part of it was to kind of build in the story of the workshop into the music that if you weren't here, you would not have got that recording of those people chatting and at the coffee shop. So it's kind of

per permanently marked with the experience and builds that story into it. And it was really interesting how we all took the same walk. Some people were shaking trees and bushes and some people were eavesdropping on conversations and all different things, but everyone felt kind of inspired by that. I've got this now, what can I do with it? How can I incorporate it?

Dennis (42:56.754)

Yeah, and there's something I think really nice about the idea that it's yours too. So you you see this over and over again if you read interviews with people who do a lot of field recording or who sample from their environment into their own music. They often talk about how the thing that makes that recording so special is that no one else can have it.

So, you know, we live in a in a world where samples are really easy to come by now, right? Like you can subscribe to a service and get all the samples you'd ever want. But they you never know whether or not someone else has that sample too. And even if you're deeply dig in, and this is true if you're, you know,

Producing sample-based hip hop too and digging in the crates for interesting records. Like someone else may have used that sound and they might they will, of course, transform it in their own way. But a field recording is pretty special. You know that that's just yours. And even if it's wind or rain or a somewhat generic sound that anyone else could have something similar to, they won't have the same one you have.

And so there's a there's automatically this like deeply personal imprint on the sound that's maybe deeper than what you could get through any kind of synthesis or certainly anything that you would get from a sample library. It doesn't necessarily mean it's better, but it's yours.

Brian Funk (44:22.532)

Mm. Yeah, I've grown to the point where when I put up a mic to record a guitar or vocal, I kinda don't care what's going on. I don't like I I definitely don't have a red light outside my doors that says recording, do not enter. if something comes along and gets involved, it's in. I mean I've recordings with dogs barking, cats.

Dennis (44:31.26)

Sure.

Brian Funk (44:51.31)

A an instrument I come back to a lot is a piano I recorded at my mother's house. she has this really nice grand piano and or baby grand and all I had at the time was the iPad 2. So not a great mic at that time. I just put it on there and in the next room my aunt, my mom, my grandma were all having a conversation, kind of laughing, talking and on some of those samples. You hear them.

They're like laughing and then they get pitched up and stretched around and I love it. It's it's not a great recording of a piano, but it's completely mine. Except that I put it out for free download and people can have it. But it's it's special on a personal level, you know, to have like my family in there and and they're talking and

Dennis (45:32.465)

It's yours.

Brian Funk (45:49.403)

I think that helps me connect to the music more that I make with it. And I don't know that it's measurable in the listener, but I I kind of believe that those little touches matter when you're listening to music to hear something alive and kind of one of a one time only sort of things that happened that are preserved. Something special there.

Dennis (46:15.912)

Totally. And it might not even matter if it matters to the listener. It might only matter that it matters to you and that that was enough of an impetus to finish the record, for example. Like maybe if you'd had a perfect, pristine, better sampled piano, it just wouldn't have been interesting enough for you to keep going. So sometimes the the the quality in a kind of abstract or objective way isn't the goal. It might not even be the best thing.

Brian Funk (46:26.876)

Yeah, right.

Dennis (46:45.433)

the the thing that that excites you about it is the the fact that it's unique, that it's yours, that there's these voices that are mixed in it. I mean if something egregious had happened and the recording was like much louder, be a glass had broken or something, you might have thrown it out, you know, you might have have re-recorded that one.

But these these little ephemeral atmospheric things, sure, maybe they mean that it's worse in some abstract sense, but it doesn't matter.

Brian Funk (47:19.142)

No, and if it's that bad I could always pull up the grand piano preset in any software and be good to go.

Dennis (47:27.089)

Sure, and then but then it wouldn't be special anymore. You know, and maybe the generic one is fine for some other purpose, but the personal one matters at at this moment. And that

Brian Funk (47:30.704)

Hm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:40.358)

Yeah, that's an angle I hadn't thought about, that it might be the thing to keep me going. Not even just even if it gets completely unnoticed, whether that means nobody ever listened or no one heard it when they did. The fact that it pushes you through. Yeah.

Dennis (47:45.371)

Yeah.

Dennis (47:54.759)

I think that's super important. I think it's really important, right? Like I I talk with my students a lot about this idea. I think I talk about it in the book too, this idea of like scaffolding that you sometimes build for yourself scaffolding that you need.

to to get the music made and then when the music's done you don't need the scaffolding anymore. The building is I'm mixing my metaphors here, but it's the same with like with construction, right? The first thing you do is put up this scaffolding and it's kind of ugly and it's purely functional. And it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what the building will look like at the end. You need the same scaffolding to build some pr premium luxury high-rise that you do to build, you know.

right aid drugstore or something, right? But you s you need it until you don't. And these kinds of creative impetus, whether it's an extra musical story or

Brian Funk (48:45.041)

Right.

Dennis (49:00.944)

particular kind of experiment with tools or a piano that you sampled from people that you care about. Like that's the scaffolding for you. And then the music that emerges from that is different than the music that would have emerged without that scaffolding or with different scaffolding. And in the end, the scaffolding means nothing to the listener. Unless you choose to share it and they they take that into consideration. But then you have this artifact that wouldn't have been possible otherwise.

Brian Funk (49:30.353)

Yeah. Yeah, that happens sometimes too. sometimes I start with a guitar part that when I'm actually making the song it sounds better when I mute it. And it might have been the core idea, but actually this works better without that.

Dennis (49:42.66)

Yeah.

Dennis (49:49.402)

Yeah, I love when that happens. You you have a thing that was the center, and then gradually other things overtake it, and then you realize that you never needed that thing in the first place. But you did. You needed it to get where you were, and now it's gone.

Brian Funk (50:04.091)

Yeah. It sort of sacrifices itself into the greater good.

Dennis (50:08.516)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:11.537)

That can be a hard thing to do mentally though, to because as the person making the music, you're so connected with every stage of the process and that's the foundation. Like, how could I ever take that out? Sometimes it's another person even that says like what's going on with that guitar there? What happens if we take that out?

Dennis (50:34.362)

Right. Yeah, I mean I think I d I can't remember what whose quote it is, but there's some famous quote about perfection is when is not when there's nothing left to add, but when there's nothing left to take away. Like strip away all the extraneousness until you're left with what you really need for the thing to be the thing. That doesn't mean that's not an ad that not advocating like a kind of minimalism or anything.

Brian Funk (50:57.575)

Mm.

Dennis (51:02.34)

I'm just saying w it's it's very easy to think that the solution is to add, when often it's to subtract.

Brian Funk (51:11.653)

Yeah. Well, I guess an idea, whatever it is you're trying to put forward, has to be somewhat graspable to the listener. It has to be there has to be some sort of clarity to what it's trying to do. whereas more can distract one. I think I'm thinking a lot now, my my metaphor is going over to writing, where

Dennis (51:38.448)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (51:39.398)

You you need your I the whole point of communication and writing is to be clear and to the point to communicate your idea. And with my students in high school, they think good writing is more words because they've been told things like at least five hundred words and at least all these things say to them, the more I write the better.

And I'm trying to tell them like, no. Sometimes I tell no more than two hundred words. No more than boil it down, take stuff away. And they might even see it and say, like, yeah, it's easier to understand, but it's fewer words. I'm like, No. We we need a little bit of clarity and maybe that's kinda what happens with our music, that the idea gets lost in all the fluff and ear candy and because I have infinite tracks and

New plugins I want to use.

Dennis (52:34.042)

Yeah, I think that's true to an extent. I don't always know if there if there needs to be an idea as a as a thing that you could express on its own. at least in music. Well, even even in writing too. If

If you're trying to do story like narrative storytelling, I mean I'm talking to you as as an English teacher, I shouldn't like that's your domain. But if what you're trying to do is narrative storytelling, sure. But if what you're trying to do is like an experimental play with words, then it may not be the case that there's that there's a line that needs to be perceivable or even that needs to exist. And I guess that's true with music too, right? Like if you're writing a pop tune and

Brian Funk (52:57.915)

No, no, no.

Dennis (53:17.912)

you're you're seeking for some kind of functional functionality in in your pop music. You probably want like a yeah, you probably want a melody and like lyrics that are under understandable. But that's of course only one way that music might work. Music might be about big blocks of texture with no clarity.

Brian Funk (53:24.007)

Some anthemic thing, yeah.

Dennis (53:40.922)

But I still think the subtraction idea is valid, but maybe it's not because you're trying to expose an inner idea, but maybe just because

Dennis (53:55.332)

sure what the answer to that is. If it's not because you're trying to expose an inner idea more clearly, why would it be necessary to take away? It isn't always necessary. I mean with everything, with everything that I might ever say about music, it's like an idea rather than a rule. Yeah, there's always fine, there's always asterisks, you know.

Brian Funk (54:14.406)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dennis (54:19.748)

don't necessarily do this. I do find that in my own music I'm often trying to find subtraction, but I never really think about it because what I'm trying to do is expose a a an idea. Not never. I I'm not usually thinking about it as being about trying to to clarify an idea. It's more just that I have a feeling that there that there's too much clutter.

Maybe when you take more of the clutter away, there isn't a single thing which is more perceivable. It's just that the overall listening experience is somehow less distracted. Or maybe it's just that it fixes the mix. It could be a purely technical thing.

Brian Funk (55:02.382)

Yeah, that's true too. There's a lot of reasons to do it. But yeah, you make a great point. I mean, there's I guess everything we can ever say about art is just maybe a guideline or a suggestion. And a lot of times the interesting stuff happens as soon as you abandon that. Cause yeah, we might want the anthemic song that's gonna create social change or or make you just wanna

kick off your cowboy boots on the weekend and have a beer. But sometimes music is an art, the meaning is somewhere between the creator and the listener and you you let the listener fill in the blanks and that's also a fun experience too to have a piece of music that you're interpreting and you're maybe even differently each time you listen to it, depending on where you're at. So

Dennis (55:59.3)

I mean, that's something I I talk to my students about a lot. Like if they come in with a very strong extra musical idea, this is a piece of music about X. My question for them is often, how important is it to you that the listener hear X? Or is X just the scaffolding, the motivation for you to get the thing across the finish line? And the answers are different, you know?

Brian Funk (56:16.346)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (56:24.334)

Mm.

Dennis (56:25.441)

It's sometimes it's no, the X is the thing that's important. The music is just the vehicle for it. And sometimes it's no, it's just the scaffolding. It's just for me. And other times it's more nuanced. It's like I would like them to have a feeling in the X direction, but the details are up to them. It's up to the listener, it's up to the interpretation, as you said, between the listener and the creator.

And I think it's I think it's good for students to interrogate that. If they come in with a thing that exists before or outside of the music, it's it's good, I think, to question how much do you care about that translating to a listener? There isn't a right answer. but it's an interesting question to think about.

Brian Funk (57:13.828)

Yeah. Yeah, the purpose of it, the intention. And plus I guess this idea of releasing music is sort of letting it go. And sometimes things take on a different meaning. I don't know, born in the USA like

You know, that's sometimes used as just really patriotic song and sometimes it's like kind of a protest sort of thing. but

it gets reused. It's been it's been let go. It's not even Bruce Springsteen's anymore on a lot of levels. It's just the fabric of the society.

Dennis (57:58.34)

Right. Yeah, I mean that's yet another level. Like when it if something becomes a big enough piece of l a big enough cultural artifact that

It it no longer is just about what one listener thinks, but what about like a whole society thinks. And of course, there isn't a right answer there either. The thing is open to interpretation. But you're right, like a song like that is sort of it's a cultural artifact now. It's beyond just creator and one listener. It has it has meanings that are that transcend those things.

Brian Funk (58:19.46)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:32.954)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:36.748)

Yeah, even if the boss himself came out and said you know, definitively people would be like, Yeah, but not to me. Not to us, not to yeah. That that's the cool thing about it. I guess th could be a little scary on some levels, but it's it's nice that this stuff is almost alive. Gets to go live its life once it comes out of you.

Dennis (58:45.283)

Right. It it might not matter. Right.

Dennis (59:07.033)

Yeah. But you're right about it being scary too, because of the loss of control. If you never release it, you never have to worry about that. But as soon as you do, you you either well, you can choose not to worry about it, but it's a it's an object that could inspire worry.

Brian Funk (59:15.738)

Right.

Brian Funk (59:25.37)

Yeah, some artists never say what the songs mean 'cause they don't want to get involved in that.

Brian Funk (59:35.686)

Yeah, it's interesting how we've come to this too and now things can really change fast with the the way stuff spreads today.

But very cool. I w I wanted to ask you something kind of specific based on something I read that you said about teaching. And it's something I found myself saying too, that you I think you said it in this way. I hope my students learn as much as I learn. And I've kind of said this sort of thing

I I like that. I feel like I'm the one that learned the most this semester or this class. Like after the end of the year I'm like, I learned a lot. I don't know about any of you guys. But I'm kinda curious as to some of the things maybe you've learned or that's memories stick out to you. 'cause I'm sure it happens on a lot of different levels. It could even be something technical. It could just be more philosophical or how you approach I know for me just how I approach people sometimes.

Dennis (01:00:41.912)

I think you you kind of summed it up there. I mean, it's a mix of all of those things. You know, maybe the most the sort of simplest sort of surface level representations of this are when a student introduces you to music that they care about that you didn't know. And that that happened a bunch this semester for me, this last semester for me, students would come in with some music that they were excited about, that they were trying to recreate or emulate in some way.

And it wasn't music I knew. And then it was like something else for me to listen to. Something and that's great. Like if I can discover new music, awesome. Sometimes it's a technical thing too. Like, you know, they they've discovered a practice or or particular tool that I hadn't thought about using in that way or

It I mean a particular case in this last semester is that a lot of these students who are doing kind of orchestral recreations in the DAW, they're they have a really deep encyclopedic knowledge of the world of sample libraries. And it's all I mean, I know I know the tools that are used often in like electronic music. And I don't really know the sample library world much. And these

These students knew all about this stuff, who the big players were, and they're able to converse about the names of these companies that I had maybe never heard of. That was super interesting. But on a deeper level, I think it's it's about individuals and the way they respond to creative prompts or feedback or just conversation in class.

And that's one of the things that I like the most about teaching individuals, teaching people in rooms, is that everybody's gonna hear what you have to say and what each other have to say in different ways, filtered through their own interests, their own experiences, their own talents. And then you get to kind of sit back as a teacher and watch that transformation and dialogue happen. and honestly, it was something I really missed about

Dennis (01:02:51.256)

Making educational products versus teaching. So when I was at Ableton I was working on a team that made these learning resources, which is amazing. Like it's so great to know that you're making a thing that scales to potentially. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I think

Brian Funk (01:03:06.243)

Yeah. Those are great resources, th by the way. Just just to mention quickly, like learning music, learning synths. they're so interactive where people can play around and they do things like teach how how synthesizers work from a real simple level and little by little and you're playing with it as you go. Or

even with the learning music, how you're kind of and I think you can even export what you make in those into an Ableton live session, right? So it's a great way of being hands on and kind of what we were saying before, giving people the next thing as they're having fun playing with it. amazing resources.

Dennis (01:03:38.562)

Yeah. Yep.

Dennis (01:03:50.52)

Yeah, I love those tools. They were so fun to make and the the the people, the the team that worked on them, s they're great people.

I and I loved the fact that they could scale, that you make these free resources that operate on the web, and then at any moment tens of thousands of people could be using them. What I missed though, and what and I'm super lucky that I get to explore both of these things in one lifetime, is the opposite of scale, the direct, immediate connection with individuals.

Because what I missed from the making these things at scale is seeing how that person was affected by it versus that person. And you can do user research and you can do interviews, and then you see what those effects are for individuals, but you have limited cycles to iterate then on what.

Doing. And by the by the end of the last semester of teaching, I realized that I was able to communicate with each student individually in a slightly different way. And you know, you're you're kind of guessing, right? You're trying to figure out what is it that makes this student tick. But I think you kind of narrow in on it over time. And by the end, you're able to have these educational relationships with individuals.

So you lose the scale, but you gain the it the directness. And that's you know, that's something that I love learning from my students is how they work as people and as musicians. You can only get that through direct, direct contact. So I've been I just saying I've been super lucky that I've gotten to do

Dennis (01:05:41.442)

the big scaling thing and the immediate direct personal thing all in one career, which is kind of cool.

Brian Funk (01:05:47.759)

Yeah. Yeah, and probably backwards, right? Probably most people start the other way around.

Dennis (01:05:56.664)

I mean, I guess in some sense I did start the other way around. Like the thing that made me first realize that I loved music technology education was that as a grad student I was a teaching assistant for electronic music classes. And so I discovered it quickly there. You know, many of the people were just a few years younger than me then. But it was the same thing. Like I am I quickly saw, yeah.

this person learns best when communicated with in this way and this person really loves this music but really doesn't love this music, how can I play that? How can I play that game with them that will make that will expand their knowledge in some interesting way? And and inadvertently you expand your own too, right?

Brian Funk (01:06:47.653)

That is a fun puzzle to solve in the classroom to learn what makes people tick. I've had in the last year I've moved to a different part of my district where we work with a much smaller classes. And it's really for students that have had some issues, in the bigger high school, anxiety, the stress of being there, you know, all the

Dennis (01:06:50.115)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:14.809)

bazillion of issues that come up in a high school. So working with fewer students and closely and some that start off pretty resistant to you even or distrustful and finding the way in has been very rewarding and all very challenging too and sometimes frustrating and confusing and all those emotions that go with it. But there is something really nice when you can say like, you know, this helped this person.

know, that individual. the the ability to scale is incredible. I mean, you'll never know. Well, even in the classroom, you really never know what your reach is. There's people I'm sure you've taught this year, you've said things that may have just came out of your mouth on a whim and will stick with them forever. But

Dennis (01:07:44.803)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:06.648)

this on the scale you really don't get that sense as much and even if you get the feedback it's sort of after the fact compared to watching the light bulb turn on, so to speak, as you're working with an individual.

Dennis (01:08:21.602)

Yeah. Yeah, you don't see it happen when you make tools. but it's great that those tools exist and it's great that that I had a chance to to build those things. Like I think they just serve a different purpose and and they might even serve a different purpose for the same student. Like I it's exciting to me to think about maybe my potential students in my program got their start by playing with something like learning music.

That's a, I don't know if it's true, but it's a cool thing to think about. Because I think those resources are a great way to get into this world in a in a pretty low stress way. One of the things that somebody told us once when we did testing for these was that they they really liked feeling like they were alone. They liked feeling like there wasn't somebody watching over them doing this thing.

Which is cool. Like there's a there's some power that comes from being able to explore things on your own time. If you want to push a button a hundred times in a row, nobody's gonna tell you not to do it. Whereas in a classroom, it's harder to take that kind of free time. But having both of those learning modalities available to you is cool. Like I think it's great to to explore independently and also in groups and also one-on-one.

They they're different ways of getting into the same kinds of things.

Brian Funk (01:09:51.491)

Yeah, that's an interesting point, 'cause there's a real vulnerability to being new at something. And especially if you're in a classroom and you feel like they already know this stuff and my I have a stupid question that everyone's gonna think I'm dumb for asking. to be able to be a, you know, beginner without any

kinda shame to it, which is a sad thing we have anyway, a lot of times when we learn new things. I think as we get older we get less and less willing to go there, to be a complete beginner, to be new and clueless. We we don't

Kids kids will happily do it, they don't care and the I wanna push those glowing buttons on that MIDI controller and just see what happens. But I I've seen it too in with some of the students. Some sometimes they're like, they don't even wanna touch the light up button 'cause they've been told so many times, No, or you're not good yet, or you didn't earn it.

Dennis (01:10:55.853)

Right.

Dennis (01:11:01.227)

Right, right. Yeah, and a button that you if you really don't know the purpose of a button, what is this the self-destruct button? Like you you don't know what are the boundaries of this environment? Can you actually damage something? You know, and that was one of the cool things about when we worked on the learning sites was that we tried to set it up so that nothing nothing bad could happen no matter what you did.

Brian Funk (01:11:10.382)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:27.95)

Can't crash it.

Dennis (01:11:29.387)

Right. There there was I mean hope I hope not. But so that every there weren't that many buttons available at any one time and every one had a meaningful purpose that hopefully was relatively easy to figure out and not destructive. But you're right. I mean Yeah. Right.

Brian Funk (01:11:44.472)

Hmm. I I tell people that a lot. Especially with MIDI mapping. Like, don't worry, you're not gonna break it. And if if you really mess it up, open a new session. You start over. You can't break it.

Dennis (01:11:55.105)

Right. Yeah.

Yeah, so giving people safe places to to explore on their own terms, I think is very powerful. And then giving them, if they choose, more personal direction in small groups, individually. I think all of these different learning modalities are are really powerful. And you get something different from all of them.

Brian Funk (01:12:19.822)

Hmm. I saw you have a summer workshop coming up with Aaron Barra.

Dennis (01:12:25.634)

Yeah, in just a just about a week and a half. Yeah. Yeah, for high school students here. And yeah, I'm I'm super excited about I'm also super excited about working with Erin again because she's sh she's as good as it gets. Like what a force. and what an amazing and inspiring educator. Like I I'm looking forward to this because I'm gonna learn stuff from her. but yeah, it's for high school students who

Brian Funk (01:12:30.572)

Yeah, I thought that was cool.

Brian Funk (01:12:36.216)

Yeah.

Dennis (01:12:54.221)

Have varying levels of experiences with music production. We're gonna give them a kind of crash course in producing with Ableton Live. And then the thing culminates in a performance of original music that they'll make during the week at the end. Yeah. Yeah, it's fun. I think it's gonna be great. It's a small enough group that it I think we can get some exciting quality hands-on time with individuals and also in the small group again, like the the various modalities.

Brian Funk (01:13:05.889)

wow. That's fun.

Dennis (01:13:21.545)

most of them will be traveling here and living on campus. So it's kind of like a summer camp. It really is like a summer camp for them, which is great.

Brian Funk (01:13:31.268)

Yeah, and and a real world result too, the performance. So it's not just academic exercises. We're gonna we're gonna make something and you get to share it.

Dennis (01:13:42.423)

Yeah. And what that what that can mean for these different students is totally unknown. Like

Brian Funk (01:13:48.323)

Yeah.

Dennis (01:13:48.757)

Some of them might have experience and they will have an idea, or that maybe they've already been making music using these tools. And maybe they want to do more of what they've been doing, or they want to use it as a chance to branch out. And for some of them, this might be the first time they've ever done anything like this. And so there are no expectations on a standard of quality for the performances or anything. It's these students can come to it, come at it as who they are.

and where they are and we're gonna put it all together on one concert. It's exciting.

Brian Funk (01:14:20.779)

Hmm. Yeah, that sounds like a really cool experience for them. And I've done a couple things sort of like like the one I mentioned to you, at the Ableton headquarters and I did a songwriting retreat once where we got together and wrote music with strangers basically. so of rewarding. I mean so much you learn and

On on a lot of levels too. Again, like that vulnerability part, going through that and just trying to open up and share ideas and react with new people, new new perspectives. you know, some of the most educational experiences I've ever had in those types of situations. It's nice to get young kids like that into that early and make that kind of

A normal thing for them.

Dennis (01:15:17.184)

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and a a best case scenario is that some of these students have such a transformative experience here that they're then interested in pursuing this when they get to college. You know, it's exciting to think that there could be a student that comes through this program who's like, wait, I want to do this for four years. And then they could come to do my program. I think that'd be great. It'd be amazing. Yeah, it'd be it'd be awesome if that happened.

Brian Funk (01:15:30.423)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:15:41.441)

Yeah, you'll have the program ready to go.

Hmm. And as you mentioned too, sometimes the best professional development you get is just to work with another teacher. Sometimes even just talking to another teacher and sharing ideas or building something with them. I've always found that's way better than any workshop or you know, whatever kind of thing they make us do every once in a while. Just just let us talk. You get a lot out of

Dennis (01:16:08.692)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's super powerful.

Brian Funk (01:16:15.817)

So with the if I can ask you maybe just a little bit about what the program looks like, has have you ironed a lot of that out by now or is it still kinda coming together?

Dennis (01:16:25.803)

Yeah, we've I mean, you mean the program for the degree, right? Yeah. So we had to have a full four year layout of the coursework and sample syllabi for every course in order to even get the thing approved by New York State, which is actually I didn't know that that would even be part of the process before I

Brian Funk (01:16:28.779)

The degree, yeah, the music creation and technology.

Dennis (01:16:50.428)

before I got here for this job. I somehow naively assumed like I would get off the plane and walk into a classroom and there would just magically be students waiting for me. I don't know why I thought that, but but it's cool to have the opportunity to really build a new thing from the ground up. But yeah, there's a map of the the whole four years. and it's a mix of new courses and courses that are sort of specifically designed for the program.

Brian Funk (01:17:01.795)

Yes.

Brian Funk (01:17:05.41)

Yeah.

Dennis (01:17:17.706)

And then courses that already exist in the conservatory. So the students will do the standard complement of music theory and music history and piano proficiency with minor modifications. They'll do the same thing that all the other students do. Then there will also be a contingent of courses that they'll have to take through the engineering school. So introductions to computer programming, electrical engineering.

Audio engineering course in a studio, so they'll learn, you know, how to function on a recording console with Pro Tools, this kind of thing. Which is not going to be that's not that's not a course that I need to do myself. There's already professors here who who do all of those things actually for the existing audio engineering focused programs that happen in the engineering school.

So my students will take those courses. And that's great. It feels like a really nice combination of technical and musical. We'll see. I mean, the chances that we got absolutely everything right about the curriculum are are pretty slim. Like I think once we actually have students here and we see where their strengths and weaknesses are, of course, we'll probably need to make modifications. But I feel pretty excited about the blueprint that we have for the for the curriculum already.

Brian Funk (01:18:42.861)

Yeah, that that sounds great and it sounds like a lot of well rounded stuff and o also very specific too, so that they get the skills and not just the general f understanding of everything, but go deep on a lot of that.

Dennis (01:18:58.934)

Yeah, I think so. I mean, what I want is for the the students who come through the program to think of it as primarily a music creation program. Like a lot of what they're gonna be doing is making music, but they're gonna be doing it in a context in which they're also invited to make their own tools or to modify tools. you know, it's exciting to think about a student who kind of reaches a boundary in what I mean, this is why things like Max for Live or

or modular synthesis are so exciting is that they they have transcendable boundaries. Like if you find that you've hit a wall with your environment, you can modify the environment to do something very bespoke, very bespoke, very specific to your own interests.

And I think it's great to think about students kind of hitting those walls all the time, not because they've not because they're doing it as a kind of academic exercise, but because they've actually figured out that they have a musical idea that the software or that the tools don't support well, but then they have enough chops to be able to engineer their way out of that problem and hopefully into exciting new musical ideas.

I mean, for me, all the interesting things that I've ever done with Max have always come out of the same impetus, which is I had a particular musical thing that I wanted to do that I couldn't easily do given the tools that were in front of me. So I just made new tools and then experimented with making music with those tools. And that has been that's kind of how I think about music making at this stage of my life right now. Which is super powerful because it makes you

It makes you be critical and questioning of the tools as they're presented to you. Like this doesn't

Brian Funk (01:20:46.435)

Sure. And the tools do suggest a workflow. They do suggest even the arrangement view that Ableton has and Live and every DAW is a tape metaphor, really. It's that's a tape that we're looking at just on a screen and Live obviously broke that with session view and

Dennis (01:20:50.667)

Course.

Dennis (01:20:59.744)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:21:09.469)

And th that's I guess really the story of live, right? Breaking out of those constraints or making their own tools to

Dennis (01:21:16.875)

course. Yeah. And it's been incredibly powerful. And I as we've been, as we talked about earlier, like constraints can be very powerful. They can help you eliminate unnecessary decision making. But at the same time, I think creative music technologists should always be critical and questioning of the constraints that are presented to them. Because none of this stuff is none of this stuff is unbiased.

And I'm not using bias in a in a negative sense. It's just that when you're using a tool, you're seeing music making through the lens of the people who made the tool.

And you can choose to accept that and still make a lifetime's worth of amazing music. Or you can say, yeah, but what if it did this instead? Or what if it could do a little bit more of this in this direction? And I want the school, the students who come through the program to at least be able to ask those challenging questions of the tools and environments that they're in. Because there's going to be more and more of them. There are more tools with more opinions and more biases. And it should be at least possible.

possible to know that you can question those opinions and biases and engineer your way into different opinions and biases which are no less opinionated but they're yours then.

Brian Funk (01:22:38.712)

Yeah.

I think that's clever 'cause it offers them another possible avenue too in their careers of breaking these boundaries, making new things. They have those experiences. Not just like you said, kind of following the the path and and those biases, which is that's the not a bad word for it really, because it's this is how we've always done it, so this is how we're doing it.

Dennis (01:22:48.757)

Yes.

Dennis (01:23:09.633)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:23:09.815)

But we it doesn't have to be and that's part of the great thing about when you get youth involved too, they see these different ways of working and different ideas and it f it usually shakes things up in a interesting way.

Dennis (01:23:22.037)

Yeah, and and there's a subtext also to what you just said, which is that I I would expect that at least some students who come through this program get so excited about the idea of engineering their way to new ways of thinking that they become they they start a music tech company. You know, that I see that as a viable career outcome for at least some of the students in this program. Some will go on to be performing musicians and composers and

the sort of traditional music school outcomes. But I would expect that some of them are also like, wait, this idea that I have that I'm making music with now is not just good enough for me, it's good enough for other people too. Let's do something with it. And then that becomes a viable career path for them as well.

Brian Funk (01:24:09.889)

Yeah, it's very cool. I get very excited about this. Again, partially 'cause of my own personal experience in school where I didn't feel like there was much room for the rock and roll guitar player. And I think so. we're in short supply these days. But yeah, the the kid that has an MBC or got real good on, you know, note on their phone or something like that.

Dennis (01:24:23.531)

There's always room for more rock and roll guitar players.

Dennis (01:24:36.534)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:24:39.361)

Give them that it's a validation thing too, I think, that some of this some of the technology and music kinda deserves that it's nice to see coming from an accredited college, university type thing. it's a nice exciting time. I think I think we live in the best time to be making music. I mean, there's obviously things people

long for from the past, but I don't know that we have to necessarily choose. We can also still incorporate that stuff and yeah, I'm I have a cassette tape machine right next to me. I love it. It's fun, but it's not the best thing in a lot of the situations, but when I want it, it's great. so it's it's just a cool way to offer students and artists future

Dennis (01:25:11.147)

We don't have to choose. Nothing goes away.

Brian Funk (01:25:34.275)

probably people will hear about one day, a chance to express themselves and explore this medium that we've really just kind of scratched the surface of anyway with music. There's so much to be done. It's a never ending rabbit hole.

Dennis (01:25:48.287)

Right. Yeah, agree.

Brian Funk (01:25:54.09)

So is there any place you wanna send people to check out your work or to the university's work or to possibly enroll in the program?

Dennis (01:26:05.087)

Yeah, I I have my own personal website, which is just kind of my my summary, that links out to various other things. But the the the new degree program has its own website which talks a little bit about kind of my philosophy for the for the thing and how the school is thinking about it, and also links to the admissions and application process, which is basically like a port you submit a portfolio of music that you've made or that you've played on.

Along with some videos of yourself working and showing your your studio space and kind of talking about how you make music. Cause I think one of the exciting things about what I'm hoping for for this first first cohort is that we can get students together who have very different ways of working, very different skill sets, very different musical interests.

and put them together in a space together. So I want to hear these students talk about themselves and talk about how they think about music in addition to like listening to that the actual material.

Brian Funk (01:27:12.289)

I like that. It's kind of an open minded application process too. You're inviting interesting perspectives and people in non traditional ways too.

Dennis (01:27:18.431)

Yeah.

Dennis (01:27:24.126)

Yeah, exactly.

Brian Funk (01:27:26.357)

Sounds awesome. I love it. I'm I'm really happy you're doing this. It seems like such a nice transition for you too from I mean, I remember when I was first learning live and I'd look at the tutorials and that was you teaching them. And then I specifically remember seeing you for the first time when I was presenting at TechServe. You were in the audience and I was like, God, I know that guy

Dennis (01:27:28.052)

Yeah, great.

Dennis (01:27:49.948)

Ha ha

Brian Funk (01:27:51.509)

But you were so supportive and kind and always have been, even through the certification process. I I think this is gonna be a real hit and I think the students that go are gonna be lucky to have you. It's really cool stuff.

Dennis (01:28:05.61)

Well, I appreciate it. I I'm I'm very excited about it. I'm very excited to meet them.

Brian Funk (01:28:11.209)

Yeah. Yeah, I can tell you're gonna get a lot out of it yourself too.

Dennis (01:28:15.358)

Yeah, I hope so.

Brian Funk (01:28:18.603)

Dennis, thanks so much. I hope to touch base with you again sometime soon about it. Find out how it's going. But I'll put all the stuff in the show notes for everyone listening so that you can check it out. I already know it's gonna be awesome. It's gonna be a great hit, so go take a look. And thank you.

Dennis (01:28:26.686)

Yeah, thank you.

Dennis (01:28:37.672)

So. All right. Thanks a lot, Brian.

]]>Modern Music Education and Overcoming Creative Challenges with Dennis DeSantis - Music Production Podcast #431The Power of Mastering with Jeff Graves - Music Production Podcast #430podcastBrian FunkTue, 11 Aug 2026 14:53:56 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/jeff-graves52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a7b32839e243c576815afb7Jeff Graves is the founder and creator of LuvLang Studios, an online mastering service. LuvLang gives users interactive control and feedback over the mastering process. 

Jeff and I spoke about how mastering can transform a mix. Jeff shared his story of his experience working in studios and learning about mastering, and how LuvLang Studios was created. 

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Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:00.864)

Welcome aboard. Here we are. It's I'm doing great. It's nice to have you here today. And thanks for taking the time and we've been chatting a bit about this. I can see you are extremely excited about Love Lang Studio. So it's always nice to have somebody that's enthusiastic and is coming from a passionate place. You are a lifelong musician yourself. So it seems like everything you're doing here is comes from that perspective.

Jeff Graves (00:03.898)

How you doing, Brian?

Jeff Graves (00:08.141)

Good to be here, man.

Jeff Graves (00:16.195)

Yes I am.

Brian Funk (00:30.094)

Like you were this you were the prospective client in your past that you're providing for now.

Jeff Graves (00:36.623)

Absolutely. I was the guy with the bag of money going, can you do it? Is this enough?

Brian Funk (00:41.687)

Yeah.

I wanted to ask you a little bit about how you got into or curious about mastering itself because as you mentioned earlier, we were kinda talking about our early studio days and going in and we recorded with a guy that had eight app machines and we got to the end and then it was like, Well now you have to master We're like, What? And it was like, Well it'll be it'll make sure all the tracks are the same, they sound good everywhere and it'll

Fit in with the other C Ds in your five disc changer. It won't be too loud, too quiet or anything.

Jeff Graves (01:16.474)

And we're like, do we really need that? That's well, it's gonna be in about another thousand dollars. I think that's about what they were charging back in the day. And that was like for 10 songs. It was like, okay. So, you know, it was about hundred bucks a song. And yeah, you know, there was no reports.

Brian Funk (01:28.288)

It was a little bit of a surprise cost. Yeah.

Jeff Graves (01:31.555)

A little bit, know, after, yeah, I after, you know, and again, I remember the mixing, was like, well, how long are we gonna, you know, and it's like, well, I mean, you can spend two hours, you spend three hours, spend, you know, and we would sit there, and this was obviously before, you know, the digital days, so I mean, you know, we were like helping move faders at times, you know. And again, you know, how long do you, you know, and it's like, some songs would take longer to mix, and I don't know, now that I'm older, I'm thinking, well, were they bleeding the clock, you know, I don't know, but yeah, I mean, some songs,

Brian Funk (01:48.354)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:59.926)

It was also a performance, you know, like y you your mix was a performance. We didn't have all the automation and I mean on a lot of my old recordings when I finally got my own stuff, I would have a notebook with at thirty seconds I gotta move this up and pull this down and sometimes there was a guitar on the track that had the tambourine on it 'cause I'm trying to save space. So yeah. It was performance. So you got involved.

Jeff Graves (02:02.489)

Yeah!

Jeff Graves (02:14.936)

Absolutely.

Jeff Graves (02:19.608)

Right,

Jeff Graves (02:25.914)

Yeah, know, so, you know, just just really getting down to the wire of like, OK, you know, what is mastering? So I got older and such, you know, and obviously we all have our own dollars today. Right. So, you know, you have that idea and you want to pick up the acoustic and you know, you would record a track and you're like, you know, I'm going to go ahead and put a little bass line to that, you know, then pretty soon you put a little percussion, you know, pretty soon you get kind of a nice little gem. Right. You know, this little demo that you've been kind of working on and might add a little piano or strings or whatever. And it just really it's starting to come alive. Right.

And then so you start mixing it putting that compression you start getting stuff and you're really throwing in that EQ and you know you're throwing in some you know you know pre on the vocals and you know all this cool stuff to you know plugins and you get this just great sound and then you play it in your car and you're like

man, this does not sound like what it sounded like in my studio, you know? And so that was just the real break of, know what, I want to process because I record, I record for other people and I want to have that finished product that I can kind of master for them, even if it's not perfect, but at least kind of give them a general master. And then that just really drove me down this road where I just wasn't happy with it. And I kept just tweaking it and tweaking it to

Finally, I just was like, need to do this step by step by step just to make sure that I have all the right components. I mean, I have SSL, I have Neve, I have really prominent EQs. I have the best of the best in my online platform. And that was really hard to do because it's all online. It's all web-based. So that was another hurdle. But again, it's...

It's done and with all the mechanisms and stuff that I have in place, it's the best platform out there right now. I I put it up against anything, literally, and welcome. And yeah, that's it.

Brian Funk (04:25.963)

So just to so people understand, in case they didn't catch that, so you've got this online mastering service. So it's a website where people can upload their music. which have been popping up a bit here and there. It seems like every time I upload a song somewhere they wanna know if I want a little master to it or something. And it's just kinda if you hit yes, something happens and it sounds different somehow and

Jeff Graves (04:36.186)

www.loveling.studio

Brian Funk (04:55.177)

I've never been able to make any sense of what exactly is going on and why some things sound okay, some things sound really weird. so I've ki I've kinda just stopped clicking. Yeah, let's see how that sounds. but you're given a lot more than that. You've got much more on your platform that makes it more of an interactive experience.

Jeff Graves (05:11.3)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (05:19.066)

Yes, and I do have three different tiers. know, we talked a little earlier, you know, the first tier is just a 16 bit MP3. Your second tier is 24 bit. Doesn't give you all the goodies, but gives you some. And then the studio version is giving you the 24 bit. You know, you can change your bit depth. can...

You can change a lot of different things too. So that flagship is probably for more people that hey, we worked really hard on this song. We want this to be radio ready. And I built this platform to where I do have things in place that I'm referencing your track to find out what genre, to find out what your total peaks are. There's a lot going on where a lot of these other platforms just weren't doing. And then I would find out that the user would suffer.

thing they weren't giving you any sort of certificate that was a bother so with mine I'm telling you exactly what I'm doing I'm giving you a certificate showing you what your song came in at and then what we did to make it sound better I think that's important you know and again hopefully we can educate people on just the process of mastering so they know when they hit another platform they go wait this doesn't sound as good as Love Lang you know and again they're only doing possibly six to

to eight processes, I think is usually what these platforms are doing. I'm giving you the option to do 24. So obviously it's a lot heavier. It's a lot more in depth. It's the real thing, you know? And my whole goal was to try to mock Sterling sound mastering. I that was my goal, you know? And I don't think you can really...

100 % reach that goal, right? Because as an engineer you need to have ears, you know? It almost needs to be done by a person, know, a master engineer. So I wanted to give people that option too, Brian. Like, hey listen, you I know we can get really close and hey, you know, the studio tier sounds really good.

Jeff Graves (07:28.504)

But I want to do an album and I'd like to have an engineer kind of go through these just so the whole album's cohesive, etc. Now, I do have that option on the online to where you can upload a reference track and then that reference track can basically be your reference for all 10 or 12 songs. You want to do one reference track for each song, you can do that as well. So there's just so many different options. Now, do you really need those reference tracks? It's going to zero you in a little bit more.

but honestly if you know how to work an EQ, you have ears yourself, you're probably gonna do okay, right? I don't know your ears, but I'm hoping that you would do okay. And then at that point, you could possibly master that, it, listen to it, and then maybe make some other changes, right? This is just part of that process where I wanna make it simple for people, and when they get a finished product,

It sounds good on everything. And the big thing is that you're hitting that LUFS. It's hitting that peak of minus 14. Because if you're over that, they're going to cut it, which that's going to hurt your track. And if you're under it, they're going to have to push everything up.

that could be a bad thing too, right? And all of sudden you're hearing artifacts and stuff like that. So it's very important in the digital world that, you know, that there is some sort of platform that can really make it stupid proof. And that was really my goal.

Brian Funk (08:59.853)

Can you tell us a little bit about Luffs? This is another very misunderstood topic. Yeah.

Jeff Graves (09:04.736)

Absolutely. Absolutely. So LUFS, what is that? Right. So 17 BS 1770-4 is the standard. That's what I'm operating off of. I'm not going to get too digital. I'm not going to get too technical here because that's just dumb. So with that being said, to break it down, that's basically what Spotify and everybody's doing today. Right. So all my measurements are coming in at

the standard levels, right? Of what today's music is actually being played at. Now you do have an option, if you're going with Apple, it's minus 16. People might say, minus 16, that's gotta be louder. It's actually lower, okay? So minus 14 is actually louder. That's gonna be your Spotify, YouTube, Amazon, Tidal.

this and get done more. That's kind of the standard so to speak. Now Apple does minus 16. They've been doing that I believe since... I'm not gonna give a date because I might be wrong. But for a long time, right? Okay.

Brian Funk (10:08.47)

There was a time, yeah, where they sort of standardized that. Yeah. I remember that.

Jeff Graves (10:11.82)

And then Deether. Deether is a different platform and they kind of sit at minus 15. So they're right in between Spotify and Apple Music. So most people are doing that is measuring, you know, all your all it's basically the loudness of what people are going to hear your music at.

Brian Funk (10:23.552)

And what is what is that measuring exactly, Luffs? What

Jeff Graves (10:37.978)

Now it does require a little bit more than that, but I think that's probably the easiest for people to understand without getting too technical. But the LUFS is really where your track is going to land and where all your peaks are going to sit.

Brian Funk (10:55.754)

Mm. And I guess maybe the common thinking might be, okay, if I get that number as high as possible, my track will be as loud as possible, but then the streaming services come in or whatever platform you're using and they'll they'll adjust that.

Jeff Graves (11:08.942)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (11:15.546)

Correct, so you know it's obviously somebody that says, hey you know I mastered your track and oh it's you know okay and we're gonna put it all over Spotify and Amazon Music and maybe Tidal, I don't know. Okay cool, so we're gonna do minus 14 then because that's gonna be where you're gonna want it and I'll go ahead and master it for you and then I'll send you a couple, you know 30 minute, 30 second track, whatever.

a minute, whatever, send you a couple rough takes, let me know what you think of it, right? Then usually the guy will do some tweaks. That being said, with my platform, you can take it, upload that track, and we'll actually measure where your track's truly sitting at. So if it is over, let's say you're hitting minus 11, minus 12, you can let that guy know, hey, they're gonna crush this because we're a few

off, right? So I really want to kind of measure my song to really get it to minus 14. So we know exactly how it sounds and we know when it goes, you know, through their whole machine, so to speak, it's, it's gonna sound like we intended it to sound like. And I think a lot of people are mistaken by that.

Brian Funk (12:25.846)

Do you

Yeah. Do you recommend people aim for a certain luffs level in the mixing phase? Or is this more something that we can just work on once we're mastering?

Jeff Graves (12:39.768)

No, this is all mastering. Yeah, you know, I think at your mixing level, everybody's different, you know. Some guys, you know, save their ears, you know, which is good, because you get ear fatigue after a while, which we're all aware of.

You know and some guys you know be like came in you know yeah for the first hour or two You know but then towards that last 20 minutes I need to hit that DB of it because I need to make sure that everything's hitting and they can usually feel that right with their studio Monitors and they can kind of get a feel because this obviously isn't their first song they'd make so I think you get close to that box and What's really cool is that when you think you know hey? I think we got our master or our mix and it's complete you can just

literally upload it into Lovelang.Studio and get that measurement. Right. And then hear it and play that on the studio monitors and go, OK, this is exactly where it's going to sit when we play it for our people. Right. On our whatever, you know, on Tidal, whatever music platform. So I think this this definitely gives you a look inside that box of, OK, this is this is where we're at. And again, with the

certificate and everything, we're showing you exactly what we've done to your song. So we'll tell you exactly where was at and then where we put it. Which, yeah, a certificate showing you that is giving you that peace of mind that, when it goes through the machine to these other services, I'm not gonna get, my track's not gonna get squashed.

Brian Funk (14:19.616)

Well, I think that's an interesting part because and it's one of the first things on your site. you say we teach you why. I think some understanding of what's happening and where we're going. and I think that would probably even help people get revisions and give feedback so that they can get it more where they're looking for it to be, to have that understanding.

Jeff Graves (14:28.494)

very much.

Jeff Graves (14:45.76)

Absolutely. And I hear a lot of people that are doing that and they're way loud. They're normally a lot louder. So again, that's going to be an issue. And you know, if you're not really educated, like I wasn't, I wasn't educated. I'm like, it's fine. It's fine. You know, not really knowing.

And again, I'm ignorant upon it. So we don't need that, you know, but that I found out later. Wow.

This is probably the most important. And again, I just, you know, I think you live and you learn. And what I'm really hoping to do is just kind of educate those guys that are really proud of what they're creating in their home studio. And they're just like, man, I just need a platform that's going to give my song justice, right? I don't have $500 or, you know, $300 a song to send it off to Sterling or I think Apple Records is doing something.

to or there's all these different you platforms that hey you know we'll take your song it just seems like everybody wants your money and then it's just this black box and then when you get your stuff back you're like either you like it and then there's no certificate again you're still in the dark it's just this black box or they're like yep you're good to go well are you you don't know

So, but by creating this website, I thought, you know what, if I can educate people a little bit and we're all on the know, I think this is going to help them further. And hopefully I can gain their business. You know, like, hey, this is a guy that really spent the time to go through each, you know.

Jeff Graves (16:31.474)

layer of the mastering part so I'm not ruining their sound. I mean think that was the biggest thing and I'll tell you what if it didn't make my song sound better you know the tracks that I was uploading or my band I didn't use it. I looked for another EQ, looked for another gate or whatever you know and that was really really hard to really find the right

formula so to speak and then put it in the right chain order. There was just so much tweaking that I was pulling my hair out. mean three years was was not fun. Towards the last six months it was a lot of fun but yeah until then it was just maybe there a lot of coffee. There's a lot I mean I think I tried to give up a few times like this I don't know if this is even possible.

Brian Funk (17:11.488)

Hmm.

Hm. You start to hear it.

Jeff Graves (17:25.658)

There was a lot of mistakes, you know, and coming from somebody that writes code and trying to come up with that perfect sound when somebody uploads a track, I'm sure you can only imagine. But again, I was hitting hurdles. I was completing them. So I would start off on the next piece, right? Then I'd fall off again, you know. But again, just creating this process to where it was a sweet flow.

of 24 features that would actually attack your track if it thought it needed it. And I thought, well, how do you get software to behave like that?

That was the hardest. I don't want to give away all my secrets, but I definitely, definitely worked on that because that was the biggest thing to me because I knew I'm an audio guy. There's going to be audio guys are to go, man, you know that this is off. You know, your measurements off. You know, when I do this, it's, it's, you know, it's losing to 2.4 DB. And I was running into these issues. You know, okay, I'm losing. I'm losing a couple DB here. Where am I losing that from?

what and why is it taking that away? So again, just just constant constant testing, auditing, revisions, you name it, and just trying to get those pieces to line up. And then I would move on to the next layer. And there was probably at least three 400 layers. Just to be quite honest, I mean, it was it was a big fee. It was a little painful, man. I don't know if I would do it again. But

Brian Funk (18:59.987)

Yeah. Well sometimes when you don't know how bad it's gonna be you go through it if you

Jeff Graves (19:05.986)

man, was just like, know, it's just ever gonna, you know, and people are like, hey, you're still working on that. I'm like, man, it's not, it's not perfect, man. And it has to be perfect because this is the problem I'm running into. So if I can't perfect that, then who am I? Like, what am I doing? Right. And so I was sending it off to a lot of studios. Hey man, let me, let me master 30 seconds of your track, man. Can you give me some feedback? You know, people would send me feedback, you know.

Hey, you know, this is is really good, you know, and then I I would I would compare it to like other mastering, you know, like Sterling sound. That was my big thing. That was like that was that was that was like, man, if I can if I can get certain and I created this kind of harness is what they call it. And the harness is basically just a whole testing workflow atmosphere. And I would I would test these tracks on there. Basically, it would tell me where I'm coming up short from like Sterling.

sound.

And again, you're not going to get 100 % because you have human ears. But man, I got probably 97%. Like, there's that three, I think that's where it ended up. I think it was like 3 % that getting down to the algorithms and such, you know, that you weren't going to really tweak. And you got to be careful when you're tweaking too, because you want to tweak something that you really don't want tweaked, right? So it's just heavy, heavy, heavy balance.

And I'm just dying to really hear people go, hey, I've used a few platforms. I'm really ready to sink my teeth into something that somebody really cares about. I'm an audio guy, love to sing, love to play guitar, just instruments. I'll pick up a bass, I'll pick up a harmonica. It's fun.

Jeff Graves (20:58.778)

I learned the harmonica just through cover stuff, but you know, just having a new instrument, you know, and just being able to record something that sounds good. I feel like we have all these capabilities today with the DAWs and everything that everybody's using. It's just when you go play it in your car, you know, and it's like, wow, you know, and these guys are charging way too much, man, for what they're offering. I mean, they're seven or eight, you know, just different features that are going to make my song sound a little deeper. Those are doing, man, they're just kind of doing the smiley face with the

Brian Funk (21:12.383)

Yeah.

Jeff Graves (21:28.792)

EQ and that stuff just doesn't cut it in the real audio world you know and I think that that's that's just really right I'm hoping I'm really hoping to reach some people Brian

you know they'd say hey Jeff I have I have that same problem you know and yeah my site's free man so I just welcome people to upload your tracks have fun with it see where it's at if you're like wow you know I'm AB in this thing and it sounds three times better purchase a track purchase an mp3 you know take it take it easy you know the first track

Brian Funk (22:07.988)

Well it's nice to get the chance to play with it a little, you know, and get a sense of it. I think the only stuff I've seen is you know, you maybe get to hear part of what the track sounds like and then buy it or not. And that's it. then it doesn't leave you with much choice. But

Jeff Graves (22:12.324)

Definitely.

Jeff Graves (22:26.125)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (22:30.35)

So what I'm doing is I'm actually when you're completed.

Brian Funk (22:33.35)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (22:34.362)

with the mastering and you've tweaked and you got everything set, you're going to go ahead and export, right? So when you export, that's not going to charge you yet, you know, and that's probably, I should probably have something listed there because probably people are like, I'm scared to hit export, it's going to take money out of my account, you know, obviously, we don't have any of your credentials yet, right? So there's nothing to take out of it. When you hit export, what it's going to do is it's going to take you to this tier screen. And Brian, that's where that that the user has that option to go with tier one, which is the MP3 tier two, which

the 24 bit not all the bells and whistles and then tier three is 24 or if you want to change your bit depth or whatever you're wanting to do and then obviously it with all the bells and whistles so that's and what you can really do is just hear that well do you know I you know tier one and p3 we can all hear the difference there right well people like you know they're tier two and tier three they have that option to listen to the song that they've went ahead and mastered and they can a and b

just those two tiers and literally you just take your mouse hit play on that tier go to another tier hit play when you hit play on that second tier it's gonna automatically stop the first tier and start playing that that tier that you've selected so now you're getting that A and B A and B you keep doing that all day until you okay now I'm hearing I'm definitely hearing the difference I'm hearing it because you can hear it sometimes with certain tracks it's very subtle

But you can hear it and I've thrown many, many tracks in there and it's... You can hear the difference. It's just... can you? Do you have those audio ears to where you can... and I guess maybe somebody that's not an audio person... Man, I can really barely tell the difference.

somebody else are going, oh man you don't hear those highs. You don't hear those those highs just really peeking through like really cutting through to like you're getting more of a balanced sound and oh okay yeah yeah yeah and now when you just do tier two you don't get all that right because they're not not giving you the flagship but they're still giving you that 24 bit.

Jeff Graves (24:40.248)

And this is what I'm hoping people go, OK, no, I do hear the difference. And again, I'm just trying to hit everybody's budget, too. It's not about taking your money. My big thing is solving a problem. And hopefully, during that, Brian, I can educate these people a little bit of going, hey, you know what? I'm not a mastering engineer, but using this platform, I definitely know a little bit more about mastering because of all the selections I have to hit.

Brian Funk (25:06.686)

Hm. Yeah, that's it's a lot of a lot of options. Cool stuff. I'm I'm very interested in this. Yeah, good.

Jeff Graves (25:08.681)

We hope.

And it goes through, I'm sorry, it goes through the 24 steps and then I was just gonna add that you can obviously take some of those steps away. I think those are gonna be on the right panel and that's where you'll see if you kind of just go down, there'll be little toggle switches that you can just basically disassemble. And again, have fun with it. You're not gonna break anything, but have your ears do the work. I think that's the most important.

Brian Funk (25:40.351)

Hmm. You've got a cool study about loudness in twenty twenty six, and I think maybe we've all kind of heard about the loudness wars of the past. They seem to be thought of as something in the past anyway, where we were making everything louder and louder and louder. Music was getting more distorted, less dynamic. And there's some great videos online that you can see.

One that sticks out in my head is smells like teen spirit. And there's a certain remaster, I guess they did, where it's so loud that that opening guitar, it comes in and then when the drums come in it's just like as opposed to the original master where it's a bit quieter and then when the drums come in they're like boom boom boom boom like you know, much huger.

Jeff Graves (26:19.354)

Mmm.

Jeff Graves (26:24.638)

Jeff Graves (26:30.612)

Okay. Yeah, I have not heard that. So that's a remaster? that like what 25th anniversary or something? Or was it 30 years now? Okay.

Brian Funk (26:35.37)

It might not even be that long later. It might have been like 10, 15 years later. but kind of right when the I guess streaming started, there was all this competition that you wanted your song to be as loud as when you went on shuffle on your iPod. So it was kind of the wild west of people just making stuff super loud, but at the cost of the dynamics. And you've got

Jeff Graves (26:43.352)

Okay.

Jeff Graves (26:48.09)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (26:55.608)

Yeah, that's... Wow.

Jeff Graves (27:01.903)

Sure.

Brian Funk (27:03.248)

this blog post you wrote about the loudness in twenty twenty six and was pretty surprised to see it seems like it is still going on a bit where we're still fighting for all that loudness.

Jeff Graves (27:15.798)

Yeah, you know, I think we are and I think you I think you said it yourself real well, Brian dynamics, right? So when everything's just turned, you know, all the way and, you know, obviously it all started with, you know, the loudness wars and such, you know, we're

And they're like, we have to have some sort of cap, man, because everybody's just getting louder and louder, you know, and this was early, early days. And, you know, obviously you look at your whole region, it just looks like one full box, right? You're just like, wow, it's already breathing. There's already breathing. There's no dynamics, right? So, you know, with my platform, that was a huge struggle to really preserve the dynamics. And I think that is the

Brian Funk (27:44.404)

Just the sausage waveform. Yeah. All right.

Jeff Graves (28:01.852)

most important in mastering not just your loudness and it's I don't want to get too technical but you know what's minus 14 you know there's a lot to that right and with that you want your dynamics and everything to still have some room right and I just think that people lose that no no I just want to let you know well at the end of the day I think if they could hear the two differences they go okay

No, you're right. You're right. Yeah. Cause you want to feel a little bit, right? You want to feel that those buildups a little bit or those new breakdowns, you know? I just think that that's part of music. That's part of stuff that I grew up, you know, listening to albums and CDs where they just, they still had that mood, you know? And I think sometimes where everything's just so in your face, you kind of lose some of that emotion. So again, that's, that's something that I'm really proud of. it was one of the hardest things.

is really to maintain those dynamics that you're not squashing them. For sure.

Brian Funk (29:06.343)

It's a funny I guess it's like an irony of recorded music that it can only get so loud, right? Like you keep adding stuff and it just hits the ceiling where I mean in if we were in this room we could just keep turning stuff up. It'll just get louder and louder and louder. It doesn't matter. But

Jeff Graves (29:20.662)

Absolutely.

Brian Funk (29:26.011)

you have to sort of make these sacrifices knowing that if we can only get this loud and we want this section to be powerful, we kinda need to back it off on the part before. So the Smells Like Teen Spirit example is so good because that first guitar is just kind of scratchy. It's not the full blown distorted guitar yet. Comes in dirty and then those drums are are huge because that guitar gets to be small.

Jeff Graves (29:37.684)

There you go.

Brian Funk (29:53.716)

But when they remastered it to have that guitar, it's already at like the peak levels. There's nowhere else to go and everything sounds a bit wimpy when it comes in. It's

Jeff Graves (29:59.759)

Very true.

Jeff Graves (30:04.922)

Very true. And you know, when you're mixing a song, you're only gonna get so much of that thump and that full, I like to call it fullness, you know? That fullness to where it feels like a real song. Like when you're in your car and you're turning it up and you're like, man, it's one of my favorite songs. You want your song to sound like that.

Brian Funk (30:09.585)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (30:28.89)

So when people turn it up, doesn't sound like crap, it doesn't distort, it doesn't... That it sounds really, really good like the rest of your albums do. And I think doing that, that is mastering. And that is something that I was just completely unaware of. I thought it was the recording process. Oh, we're just not recording as good, you know? Our mix isn't as good. No. No, your recording, your mixing is great.

You're mastering. You're mastering is what takes you from a C level to an A level. Like literally, it should take your song from C level to A level. Like it should reach two different like, wow, I can hear the difference. Like it should be stupid proof. I mean, it really should because what you're doing is you're kind of maximizing all that and you're rounding, you're gluing everything together in hopefully a very measurable way.

So when you can A, B it, you listen to the A, which is the raw, you're not hearing all that glue. You're not hearing all that force and that fullness, right? That's what the mastering's doing. And that's what I'm really hoping to educate people when they just A and B their track. They're like, okay, this is really what true mastering is doing. And I will say that that platform,

whatever song you put in, you're gonna hear a difference. You're gonna hear a difference. Now, if it is mastered already, you're probably not gonna hear a whole lot of difference. And so it's very important to take something that's not mastered. So I always try to emphasize that.

Don't try to be put in master tracks. And another thing is that if people try to just put in, I like to call it a turd, Brian. Can't polish a turd, right? So if you just got this thing and you're like, hey man, I know it's kind of a turd, but I want to master it. It was just a little something. My levels were completely off, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I'm going to load it. Go ahead, load it up into Lovelang.Studio and it will tell you, hey.

Brian Funk (32:21.321)

Right.

Jeff Graves (32:41.422)

bad recording and it will tell you why. Again, education, right? yeah, yeah. And it's going to tell you, you should really consider re-recording this for this reason. There's no headroom.

Brian Funk (32:45.235)

Hmm. it gives you that feedback on the mix. Hmm.

Jeff Graves (32:57.242)

for this reason and whatever these reasons are. You know it could be talking about peak values, it could be talking about all sorts of different things. My whole thing is that I didn't want to bury them with a bunch of technical stuff. I just wanted to get them into the ball of okay, okay so you're not... yeah I could but it's not going to do you any justice man. Again we're polishing a turd. So for me to be upfront and just take your money I could do that.

Would I feel, I be selling a service? Would I be educating that user? Would that user want to come back? These are the three things that I was like, man, I gotta nail all three of these. I don't care if you like the platform, if you like me, I just want you to go, hey, this guy's definitely got something going on here. And even if I don't purchase all the time, man, what a great reference thing just to upload my track to see where I'm at.

you can make something in your own room. I'm to go ahead and try to master it myself. Now granted, you don't have near the tools that I have in my platform, but let's just say you're trying to just get a mediocre master.

And you get that, and then you obviously want to upload that just to see what sort of target you're hitting. And then it will tell you, yeah, you're hitting, you could be hitting minus 11. That's going to be too loud, right? So you want to get it down to that minus 14. Then you might want to go ahead and remix it, right? So if you kind of know where you're at, you might want to, hey, let's turn some things down a little bit. Maybe let's try to add a little bit more dynamics. Just again, we could talk about that for days and days.

Mixing is obviously a very personal thing, but everybody has that vision. And I think if you have that vision, you're never ever, ever going to achieve that in a mix. And I always thought you could as a kid. We can hit you. We're just not spending enough time. don't have a great, we don't have an SSL board. We need a need board. That's what we need, right? Yeah, those are all great things. But at the end of the day, you have to master your track. And what sucks is

Brian Funk (34:59.173)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (35:07.866)

There's no place that you can walk in and go, hey, guys, I'm going to go down to the mastering store today. We just didn't have that luxury. And I thought, man, today we do have that luxury. And if I can give that 18, 20-year-old that peace of mind to keep going.

Because you can only get so far in a mix. Once you master that mix, Brian, we're, I mean, that's gonna, like I said, it's gonna take you from a C level to an A level. Wow. Now you're ready to pop that thing on somebody's PA, ready to play it in your car, you're ready to play it for your friends. Man, that sounds good. They don't know mastering, so they think it's all part of the recording. And I think that's kind of a nice thing. Just when you think your master's, oh, oh, I'm sorry, your mix.

Brian Funk (35:49.416)

Sure.

Jeff Graves (36:00.053)

Always tell people, get your mix to where it's, wow, this mix is so good. This is it. I wouldn't change anything. Then master it because it's going to blow you away once you master it.

I mean, it's going to just add all that glue and that's just something I was just not educated on, Brian. And that's why was really excited to really hope to reach some of your followers. to not try to really sell anything to them. Just educate. Just educate. Try to pop on the platform. I don't know who you are. I don't take any of your information. You do have to sign up with your email address. But past that, mean, until you want to purchase something, there's no credit card.

And I thought that's really keeping my true stance, man, and just really trying to give them those features that I've worked three years for without pissing people off.

Brian Funk (36:54.44)

Do you have any recommendations? yeah, you certainly can. Do you have any recommendations about how to prepare a mix for the master as far as like headroom or any kind of processing before it gets put out to whether it's on your platform or really anywhere for master?

Jeff Graves (36:56.248)

Which you can't, you know.

Jeff Graves (37:01.082)

Definitely.

Jeff Graves (37:13.554)

yeah, you know, I would say just when you're mixing something, you know, and you're, you know, somebody is, you know, they're, they're working with DB and they kind of know, a mix isn't going to really, hurt you, you know, because once you start mastering, that's going to start really putting everything in its place. and then that's what really makes it concrete. Right. So now this is, you know, masterings, the icing on the cake, as far as

You know, mixing, does matter. I mean, you obviously need to be in a studio where people are recording at nominal and there's headroom, right? Just all your basic 101 stuff. That's what's going to give you the best master. And that's probably the best answer I could give you with that question. Because people are, you know, we're constantly looking at our meters and we're, you know, to make sure that everything is sitting right in the...

Right, that's the mix. It's not the master So if you're just focusing on that mix focus on the mix make sure everything's sitting in the bed to where you really want it to sit and Then that's when you're ready for mastering. Hey guys, I think we're ready for mastering. Does this sound good to you? Yeah, man, maybe kick up that solo just about a Half a DB. Okay, you know, I mean this these are the final touches you're putting to your mix, right? You get to that point

hop on Lovelink.Studio, pop it in there and just A and B it. Okay, man? Because that's gonna give you that impression of, okay, this is what our song's gonna really sound like if we have it professionally mastered. It's not gonna squash it, it's not going to... Man, mastering can really mess up a song.

It's going to give you that fair handshake. I think that's equal to say. And on top of that, we're to give you a certificate showing exactly what we've done to your song when you're ready to actually purchase it. And that's just something no platform really does. It's just big black box. Hey, you've mastered. What do you think? Well, what'd you do? You're not going to tell me anything you did? And how do I know I'm sitting at minus 14 or minus 16?

Jeff Graves (39:30.074)

How do I know you didn't squash all my, you it's there's just so many answers that I think mastering people really look at to make sure that they don't do that to your track. So it does breathe and it does still have some dynamics. I just think a lot of these platforms that only have seven or eight processes that are dealing and you're dealing with a simple algorithm. There's no simple.

button to hit when you master and I think that's what really comes into effect with a lot of these platforms that are coming out today where if you listen to it compared to your mix, it's going to sound better, but you don't know what they did. You know, are they just giving you a smiley EQ kind of thing? Yeah, it's going to sound better. It's going to definitely sound better. You know that, Brian. goes, yeah, no, it definitely sounds better. But is it the better you're looking for? Right? Is that?

Brian Funk (40:13.456)

Mm.

Well, I I've put a lot of them I've actually felt they sound worse sometimes. just kinda and not really sure what it was thinking, where what the logic was and you can hear it it's maybe shrill or maybe now it's really heavy in the bass.

Jeff Graves (40:25.687)

Absolutely.

Jeff Graves (40:32.75)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Brian Funk (40:41.05)

I I haven't had the and you don't get the control. So that's always been the concern, with some of that stuff. You don't get the kind of hey, this is

Jeff Graves (40:46.298)

Mm-hmm.

And with the digital stuff, you're getting artifacts too. So you got to be careful because once you start really turning stuff up, you you could, you know, you're, you're getting, you can, you can be getting into some issues, right? You know, so again, just, just, just really measuring that mix and, and just giving, giving the song what it needs. Oh yeah.

Brian Funk (41:08.21)

Do you think there's a good l amount of headroom firm mix that you like to have? Like what do you do you I've I've hear lots of people say lots of different things, but do you have a recommended like amount or where it should be peaking?

Jeff Graves (41:20.492)

It really depends on the song. I mean, it really depends on the song, your genre, you know, what sort of feel are you going for? I would say definitely that's really where it's going to sit. And if you're dealing with a good audio engineer, he's going to give you that headroom and he's going to give you, everything's going to be measured correctly.

Brian Funk (41:41.458)

Well, suppose we have our home studio hero, you know, working on their mix. Yeah. Without the engineer.

Jeff Graves (41:46.297)

Home studio? Yeah, you know, I would, yeah, I think that's pretty 101, man. I you've got to be recording at nominal, right? So it's all, you know, getting a little engineering here, but you know, you're pretty, right? So you want to stage game, you know, you have to get your game staging correct, or else everything's downhill from there.

I that's 101, right? So once all that gain staging is done and everything is okay, well now you're tracking. So that's probably the most important is to make sure that everything is set correctly when you're tracking. Because the mixing and the mastering, all that is just extra layers, fluff if you will, to make your track record.

Brian Funk (42:25.271)

You're going in.

Brian Funk (42:30.823)

Well, I think even and probably a lot of people listening are some and are probably not recording anything. It might be working completely in the box. S you know, synths, VSTs, drum machines, where s a lot of that stuff is sorta taken care of already. So that you know, they don't they're not worried about recording the level of their drum machine because it's

Jeff Graves (42:45.402)

Okay.

Brian Funk (42:57.955)

it's an instrument within their DAW. which is nice and I think it gives people a nice starting point on a lot of their work. But what we do afterwards can sometimes be where we go wrong. are we running it into zero D B

Jeff Graves (43:00.388)

Right.

Jeff Graves (43:14.554)

Yeah, you know, I think even if you're laying a baseline, you know, if you're laying a baseline and you clip, you're going to notice that, right? You're probably going have to redo it. I kind of hit that. I hit that a little hard. You know, sometimes keys are a little sensitive, right? If you kind of hit it too hard or just whatever, you know, so I just think, yeah, if you're if you're measuring all that when you're tracking, whether you're, you know, and on a digital device or your

doing something through analog, you know. Your gain staging is gonna be meant and that's all part of the start of your recording. But I think people are pretty good with all that. I think the biggest reason for the mastering platform was when people get done with their mix, you know. And man, it just doesn't sound great everywhere. And where do I go? And do I have to go to Lander? Because I don't really like Lander.

You know, I want to be able to tweak or whatever, you know, that was me at least. I'm not putting any company down, get me wrong, but my whole frustration was man, I wish Lander would give me something I could tweak. They don't. It's like hit this, hit this or hit this and you're done. Like three options, that's it. Now you mean to tell me every piece of audio is going to fall under those three presets? No.

So now what you're doing is you're chaining me to a wall going, hey, we're not going to really give you a great master. We're just going to give you an OK one.

and we're not going to even tell you what we did to it.

Jeff Graves (44:57.578)

where do I sign up? Right, you know, so it's this was. Yeah. And again, you know, they were probably like, this is good enough, let's just sell it, you know, I wanted to really take people to that sterling song. And how do I master something that has quality, that really, really good quality? And like I said, the components and stuff I'm using SSL.

Brian Funk (44:59.239)

Yeah. I guess it's the AI making those decisions within those platforms. is

Jeff Graves (45:25.914)

Neve, I'm using really, really good stuff. Really, really good EQs, compression, that matters. All of that really, really does matter.

Brian Funk (45:36.177)

So when you say that, are is it running through like plug in versions of that stuff? It

Jeff Graves (45:43.318)

It's running through my 24-stage process.

Brian Funk (45:47.546)

And that's all

Jeff Graves (45:47.803)

So if you get on the site, you can actually see the 24 things that we do offer. I think they're listed there. I wasn't going to go through all 24, but again, just being very transparent, Brian, of what we're doing to their track or what we could do.

Brian Funk (45:52.155)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:57.148)

Yeah, yeah, they've then you got

Jeff Graves (46:05.926)

You as a teacher, I'm sure your students ask you a lot of questions. I was trying to kind of put all that out there just so if they did have a question, most of it was kind of answered. Well, this is what they're doing to my track. These are all good things. They can look those things up and figure out what they do. Educate yourself because those are 24 processes that no other platform in the world

Brian Funk (46:06.321)

Right.

Jeff Graves (46:33.59)

on a web based what could do. Like it's just not out, out, not out yet. And I think that was my biggest goal again was to really kind of put people in the saddle, you know, without even knowing.

Brian Funk (46:46.491)

Yeah, that's nice. Y when you've worked that hard already on something that's near and dear to you, it's nice to have that control.

Jeff Graves (46:54.394)

very passionate about it. love audio quality. I think that's really, that's really where I'm at is when you're done with the song, you know, does that, does it sound, I mean, I'm picky, man. I want my stuff to sound as clean and good as like an Adele record. I do. Why can't I achieve that? She can. Why can't I? And I think that was my whole why. There has to be a platform that we can go to that will make my song.

just sound like it was really mastered, not just masked with a bunch of EQs and such, you know, it's just like just a real high fidelity type master, you know. And, you know, I'm getting a lot of great feedback. I'm getting, things seem to be really going strong with the platform. And again, you know, just really trying to reach other audio musicians and people like yourself, you know, to really get your two sons, you know.

And would love to do a follow up. know, hey, Jeff, we've had 10 of our clients, know, hit your and we interviewed them all. We'd love to interview again. We have some questions. I think this thing will be around for a while. I'm really hoping to just gather more and more people that are really recording on their own that are like, wow, man, you really take my demo.

Brian Funk (47:59.511)

Mm.

Jeff Graves (48:12.962)

from demo to something I'm really proud of, man. And to me, that's hard, That makes my heart pump. That's music, right? And I think that's what we all try to create music for, for that finished process. This is it. When that finished process just isn't up to par, man, that's a kick in the head. Man, you spent all that time and this is all you got?

And then you think, well, where did I go wrong? What did I do? You know, I'm not an audio engineer then. Man, I went to the wrong studio. I knew we should have used this microphone on my guitar or my vocals. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You probably have everything good. It's just you're mastering, And your mastering could be the most important because when people listen to your track, does it sound great on everything they play it on? Because that's mastering. Anything else is joke.

Brian Funk (48:45.178)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (49:09.24)

Does it sound great on everything you play it on? And if people can say, man, it does, it does, well then your song's been mastered and it's been mastered correctly. Pat yourself on the back. You did not get ripped off from one of those other platforms, right?

Brian Funk (49:09.606)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (49:24.794)

Like you actually have something that you can go, hey, you know, yeah. And wow, these guys are so real, they even send me a certificate of what exactly they've done. Now, if I go to Sterling or I go to any LA mastering facility, they're going to do that as well, They're going to give me a certificate of what they've done, right? This is proof. This is our stamp. This is what your song came in at. This is what we did to bring it up to minus 14, et cetera, et cetera.

Brian Funk (49:54.519)

Hmm. It's very cool. You're empowering people to take their stuff to the finish line and be satisfied with it. So,

Jeff Graves (50:04.002)

And you know, I think in the long run, know, hopefully that keeps people recording more and more, right? I think you can only get so far with a mix, you know, and when you're kind of disappointed when you throw your car, your radio or something, you're just, I think it kind of takes a little bit of that drive. Why would I want to go ahead and mix another song or record? I think this is the best it's going to sound. And I'm not happy with that. I think that was me.

Brian Funk (50:08.667)

Yeah.

Jeff Graves (50:28.192)

I want something better, you know. All these other people are getting really, really great recordings. How do I do that? And, you know, we went to a professional studio. We paid quite a bit of money, you know. Real nice SSL board. All your, you know, neve pre's and just all the bells and whistles. We had all of it. It was great, you know. But once that mix was done, it just, it still didn't have that power.

You know, and that's just something you get from mastering that I was frustrated with and I thought, you know what? I'm going to have this mastered. I wasn't happy with it, but once I finished my product, I remastered those tracks and those tracks I think sound really, really good. You know, they're very full. So. Quite an accomplishment, you know, and hopefully some people feel the same way, you know, it keeps them recording. That's that's the ticket.

Brian Funk (51:18.456)

Super cool. Well Yeah. Well people can try for themselves, right? You've got the you got the lufts check that they can check out so they can see where their tracks sitting and you've got

samples they can hear they af as they're working and test them out. So no obligation, right? Which is really cool. lovelang dot studio. Love spelled L U V Lang dot studio. I'm glad we got a chance to talk and I I can see your excitement and passion for what you're doing and it's a very nice mission you have.

Jeff Graves (51:41.857)

Absolutely.

Jeff Graves (51:59.203)

Do know where the name came from?

Brian Funk (52:02.777)

No, I have no idea.

Jeff Graves (52:04.888)

So what do you think of lovelang.studio? What comes to mind? Anything? Just curious.

Brian Funk (52:10.438)

Well, love, you know, passion, of course. I no I don't know. I don't know.

Jeff Graves (52:21.69)

And I kind of wanted to be hidden, you know, but to me it's kind of, there you go. I mean, you know, it's the love for music, you know, and I think love, it's my love for music is really love laying, know, but I think music is a lot of people's language, you know, and I thought it was a really appropriate name because this is the final step for something that you hopefully love, hopefully you cherish.

Brian Funk (52:25.358)

Love language? Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (52:42.096)

Yeah.

Jeff Graves (52:50.658)

hopefully your song has meaning and meaning to other people. I mean, we can go on and on and on about that, right? And I just think that language of music, you know, it sits with a lot of people. And I think it comes from my experience of loving my music, but never really hitting that language of love, right? You know, just, there was always some obstacle that, well, maybe if you get signed with a major artist, yeah, they'll take care of all that.

Brian Funk (53:05.072)

Definitely.

Brian Funk (53:12.71)

Mm.

Jeff Graves (53:20.408)

not a major artist, man, but I got some really good ideas. My friends got some really good ideas, and man, we got some really good tracks. You want those to really blow up. You want them finished. You can't finish a song without mastering it correctly. And I think that that's really where the name kind of came from a little bit. So I was kind of curious if it was that obvious or not.

Brian Funk (53:44.643)

didn't strike me right away, but yeah, I I g I get it now. But I mean, yeah, it's

Jeff Graves (53:47.172)

That's good, that's good. Cause you wanna throw a bunch of love in there. Be like, what's he talking about? Love. He gonna get all lovey-dovey on us? What's going on?

Brian Funk (53:52.679)

No, it's it's a good thing 'cause I I don't think there's anybody that gets this far without a love for it. there's a lot of more sensible ways to make yourself miserable, right? But cool. We'll send people to lovelang.studio. thanks for taking the t time to talk, Jeff, and thank you to everyone for listening.

Jeff Graves (54:02.104)

Yeah, definitely. And I just thought man love language, right? Very true.

Very, very true.

Jeff Graves (54:19.342)

Hey Brian, I really appreciate the time and I'll tell you what if anybody would like to have any questions or you know they want to reach out to me personally Jeff at loveling so jeff at luvlang.studio

]]>The Power of Mastering with Jeff Graves - Music Production Podcast #430100 Year Old Piano Ableton Live Pack Ableton PackAbleton Pack PremiumMusic Production ClubBrian FunkMon, 10 Aug 2026 15:05:18 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/100-year-old-piano52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a7920c5e5a7c8280238c153

100 Year Old Piano
Ableton Live Pack

A collection of Ableton Live Instruments made from multi-samples of my 100 year-old upright piano. Each instrument captures the character, personality, and charm of this vintage piano. multi-sampled to reel-to-reel tape and built into a versatile Ableton Live Instrument Rack.

  • Macro Controls and Variation Presets for a wide range of sounds.

  • Natural Sounding Piano

  • Reel to Reel Tape Piano

  • Felt Piano

  • Reversed Pianos

  • Piano Reverb and Lo-Fi Piano Effect Racks

Requires Ableton Live 12.4 Lite or Above

Buy 100 Year Old Piano Ableton Live Pack

The 100 Year Old Piano

About 15 years ago, I bought a 1913 Kranich & Bach upright piano from the local Salvation Army. It was clear that whoever owned it played it quite a bit. The finish on the keys is faded, the hammers are worn down, and some of the pedals don’t work quite right. It makes a lot of mechanic noises, but man does it have soul.

I often wonder who played it. It’s likely that it outlived a few different owners. It will probably outlive me. I think part of its charm is the spirit of those players living on through the strings.

Over the past century it has developed its own unique sound and personality. The strings have lived through two world wars, the invention of television and rock and roll, as well as the moon landing. The worn hammers and mechanics are those of a piano that has been played by many. It has soul. This piano has a gravity and weight to every note that makes it a joy to play.

My 1913 Kranich & Bach upright piano.

The 100 Year Old Piano Ableton Live Instruments

The life and character of the piano transfers to the Ableton Live Instruments, complete with occasional creaks and noises one would expect of a 100 year old instrument. You get Macro Controls to tailor the piano to fit your needs. Add effects, filter out frequencies, adjust the noise of the initial attack as the hammer moves to the string, and even decide how often and how loud the dampers will be when you release notes!

Included Presets:

  • 100 Year Old Piano

  • 100 Year Old Piano Reversed

  • 100 Year Old Tape Piano

  • 100 Year Old Felt Piano

  • 100 Year Old Felt Piano Reversed

  • 100 Year Old Felt Piano Lo-Fi

  • 100 Year Old Piano Lo-Fi FX

  • 100 Year Old Piano Reverb

100 Year Old Piano - Piano in its natural state, full of character and personality.

Reversed Pianos - Each sample is reversed for trippy, backwards piano.

Felt Piano Instrument Rack - Felt-treated strings. Mellow and dark.

Tape Piano Instrument Rack - Samples recorded to reel to reel tape.

100 Year Old Felt Piano Instrument Racks are made with round robin multi-samples of my piano with a felt curtain positioned between the strings and the hammers. It’s a mellower, darker version of the piano; and possibly my favorite!

100 Year Old Tape Piano Instrument Rack contains round robin multi-samples of every key recorded to my Tascam 388 8-Track Reel to Reel. The combination of vintage preamps and tape warmth give the piano samples something extra special!

Lo-Fi Piano - Fewer samples, time-stretched w/ effects for a perfect Lo-Fi sound.

Piano Reverb - Convolution Reverb made from sound of resonating strings.

See and Hear the 100 Year Old Piano in Action

Sometimes sample-based instruments are so meticulously recorded, edited, and constructed that we lose the life and feel of the original instrument. Thanks to 100 years of life, the 100-Year-Old Piano rings with energy and life in every note.

Get the 100 Year Old Piano Ableton Live Pack! ]]>100 Year Old Piano Ableton Live PackEverything About Ableton Live’s Drum SamplerTutorialsBrian FunkFri, 31 Jul 2026 21:28:23 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/drum-sampler52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a6d12697da7c428627a6d05Learn. Ask. Do: Ableton Live’s Drum Sampler

This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Ableton Live’s Drum Sampler.

  • Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

  • Ask - Participate in the discussion and ask questions.

  • Do - Apply the lesson in a short activity. Get feedback and ask follow-up questions.

Join the Music Production Club and attend our meetings live.

Your Music Production Club membership gives you access to:

  • My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

  • The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

  • Live Meetings Over Zoom - Meet with me and the MPC community online! Make music together, share tips and techniques, and give and receive feedback on your music.

  • Music Production Club Exclusives - Ableton Live Packs, Templates, Samples, Presets, and more that are only available to members of the MPC.

  • Educational Materials - My Video Course, Books, and Documents to help you level up your music.

  • Our Online Community - Share your music with and get support from our thriving Discord community. and Monthly Live Meetings over Zoom.

  • Bonus Materials - Free stuff from my store as well as gifts from some musical friends!

  • Special Offers - MPC members get 50% off at my store and special discounts from music companies.

Join the Music Production Club! ]]>Everything About Ableton Live’s Drum SamplerSaving a Live Recording in Ableton Live with Stem Separation TutorialsBrian FunkThu, 30 Jul 2026 14:10:07 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/saving-a-live-recording-in-ableton-live-with-stem-separation52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a6b5a6e7caa465a0cef429eI recorded a live performance of my 3-piece rock band, Some Good Evil, using my iPhone's voice memo. The recording was very unbalanced and almost unusable. I used Ableton Live's Stem Separation to pull apart the Vocals, Drums, Bass, and Guitar. From there, I was able to remix the levels, leaving us with a much better sounding recording!

Listen to the full recording of Some Good Evil at Fadeley’s, July 28, 2026!

]]>Saving a Live Recording in Ableton Live with Stem SeparationGrammy-winning Songwriter Tim Atlas on Serving the Song - Music Production Podcast #429podcastBrian FunkSun, 26 Jul 2026 05:13:06 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/tim-atlas52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a658ae0d2904146abfc0809Tim Atlas is a musician, producer, and Grammy-winning songwriter in Los Angeles. His new EP, Reverso, was recorded in his home studio and combines Indie and Psych rock with RnB and Soul. 

Tim spoke to me about the production of Reverso. We touched on songwriting, arranging, and collaboration. Tim shared how he likes to move fast and commit to his sounds by printing them with outboard gear and effects. We covered a lot of ground from practical techniques to philosophical approaches. 

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.83)

All right, Tim, welcome to the music production podcast. Good to have you, man.

Tim Atlas (00:06.473)

Okay.

Tim Atlas (00:14.264)

Thank you for having me, man.

Brian Funk (00:17.842)

Great job on the new EP reverse so been listening to it a lot. I mentioned to you before we hit record. it's really nice this time of year. It's like late spring, it's getting starting to get hot, driving around with the windows open. it's a great sound, good feels, really nice work, great production. Well done.

Tim Atlas (00:38.21)

Dude, thank you so much. Yeah. It's like, I don't know, in LA there's there's not so much weather, you know, it's kind of it's kind of like one thing. So it's nice to hear that it can exist in in other climates.

Brian Funk (00:47.208)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (00:55.51)

It's becoming like it probably is there. So it it's very triumphant after the long winter. We had a lot of snow and cold and so yeah. This punctuates it well. Yeah. Yeah, so I I heard a lot of really cool influences in it too. like if you would have told me some of these songs came out in like maybe like the seventies, like in

Tim Atlas (00:58.89)

Yeah, nice.

Tim Atlas (01:04.979)

I know, yeah, I dodged that one.

Brian Funk (01:22.13)

kinda like an R and B vein. I I'm just hearing like shylights and stylistics type of thing. I mean some great stuff, especially like the production, but also like your vocal quality has really got that soft melodic tone to it. It sounds great.

Tim Atlas (01:27.853)

Amazing.

Tim Atlas (01:39.137)

Thank you, man. Yeah, that that's that's that's high praise right there. I but I love all that stuff. So definitely, definitely referenced.

Brian Funk (01:41.694)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:48.05)

Yeah. But you got like other stuff too. As as it went on, I I started to pick up on like more of the guitar playing, kind of felt a little more like indie rock stuff. I'm curious if you know, is this like just sort of the way things can come together or was it like a conscious effort to blend different influences on your part?

Tim Atlas (02:08.987)

it's not really a conscious effort. It's just something that I do because I grew up around like so many different types of of music and I can't really ever make a decision on on what I wanna sound like or what I wanna do. So I just like create and hope that

like my natural tendencies shine through and become the thread that kind of like connects all the songs, you know? I've spent like so much time thinking about okay, like I want to be like in this like pocket of music. but I feel like it's it's sort of wasted bandwidth because I just I don't want to create like that ever. so yeah tried to figure out a way to just like glue the thing without thinking so much about it.

Brian Funk (03:04.785)

Hm. That's actually nice to hear. 'cause I've heard a lot of the opposite advice to like, no, dial in, be the the guy that does this thing, you know, that's gonna be your wheelhouse. And I don't know, may there might be some truth to that, but I I like myself as well, like so many types of music I wanna make, so many styles I wanna explore that I I almost can never do it. Maybe for the length of an E P or an album I can stick in a lane, but

Tim Atlas (03:17.865)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:34.219)

Not much longer than that.

Tim Atlas (03:34.397)

Yeah. It's interesting, man, because like I've I've had a few people like other artists come up to me and say, like, man, like you look like you like know who you are. You know, like you know like the type of music that you make. And I'm like, that's like not true at all. I actually have no idea. I'm just kind of like going with it. I think there there are threads like that I've that I've recognized where I'm just like, okay.

Brian Funk (03:53.853)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (04:05.008)

I should put a Juno in this because that's sort of like a recognizable thing that I do. Like there's there there are some, you know, intentional things, but for the most part I'm I'm just trying to to go with the flow and and and trust in the process.

Brian Funk (04:21.627)

Yeah. Well I think that's like how you get your voice really. You know, if you're trying to do a specific thing all the time, sometimes you kind of are more emulating and trying to reproduce. Whereas when you let these like curiosities happen and you follow them, you can really discover where you are and what works for you and what you enjoy doing, what you're good at and surprise yourself a little bit.

Tim Atlas (04:27.698)

Sorry.

Tim Atlas (04:49.5)

Hundred percent, man. Yeah. And it sort of informs like the next project and the next project. And I just feel like it's a it's a process, man. So as much as sometimes it sounds like I've figured out who I am and and what I wanna make, it's it just like kind of veers into the next thing, you know.

Brian Funk (05:00.155)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (05:09.373)

Yeah, absolutely. When did you start working on this record? Reverso.

Tim Atlas (05:17.735)

I started working on it in 2025. I got my studio together. just like spending months like treating it and and of course getting new gear. and yeah, it's so funny, man, because like I got all this gear and I got a tape machine and I'm like stoked on everything. But at the end of the day, like

Brian Funk (05:34.203)

Tim Atlas (05:48.622)

I had to write the songs, you know? And I feel like I get so caught up in in computer world that sometimes I forget about the song. So for this record, I got the studio ready, I got all my toys together, and then I just like ignored it and tried to write the songs like just with guitar and vocal. so yeah, a weird like three sixty, but

Brian Funk (06:11.901)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (06:18.276)

Yeah, it was it was about in twenty twenty five that that I started just like going back to basics.

Brian Funk (06:23.899)

Yeah. I saw a lot of cool video of your studio on your Instagram. And it looks like a good place to hang out, nice, bright. And I I did notice the Juno on the rack of synths you had there. Yeah.

Tim Atlas (06:29.081)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (06:33.733)

you know on the rack. Yeah. Yeah, dude. I love my my synth rack, but like it fell like while I was I was like doing laundry and I'm an idiot and I like was like hanging jackets on on the wall and I guess jackets are heavy and and it all just came like

Brian Funk (06:46.26)

no.

Brian Funk (06:58.237)

I guess just enough.

Tim Atlas (07:02.092)

tumbling down upon me. So the the Juno still works, although the the resonance slider just like fell off. So but yeah man. No the studio's great. it's like in the downstairs area of my place and and yeah no it's it's been really like cozy and nice to have people over just like as like a really comfortable

Brian Funk (07:13.061)

Yeah. man.

Tim Atlas (07:31.684)

place to you know make whatever.

Brian Funk (07:34.203)

Hm. Yeah, there's a lot of ways y you mentioned like writing the songs. I think when you're in the computer and playing with your gear, it's fun to sort of write and produce and experiment at the same time. But something like a tape machine gets you honest. You 'cause you can't do like all those like kind of tricks of looping and bringing stuff in and out. So you you have to really know where you're going, like start to finish with with an idea before you start

Bringing that thing into the mix.

Tim Atlas (08:04.523)

Yeah. Yeah, man. It's really nice, like the tactile stuff too, you know. I just like turning knobs and, you know, pressing like the left-right button and like the, you know, pressing three buttons to record. And it is fun, but I've I've actually made it so that it's sort of an analog digital like hybrid. So a lot of the time I'm just recording the vocal.

Brian Funk (08:11.676)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (08:20.816)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (08:32.525)

Getting it right and then sending it from Ableton into the tape machine, sometimes into like this spring verb and then like back into Ableton, like after it's printed to tape. So a little more forgiving, but definitely, definitely you know, different territory.

Brian Funk (08:44.102)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (08:52.794)

Yeah. I I do something very similar. I have one just behind where you are right now. and it's fun to bounce things to tape, to just get some character and see what happens to it, but then bring it back and now it's this kind of it's like another sample I guess that you can play around with. But it's you.

Tim Atlas (08:59.265)

Uh-huh.

Tim Atlas (09:15.436)

Totally. Yeah. I noticed that it like like especially for vocals, like your ear fatigue doesn't really like set in as fast. Cause I I like to saturate my vocals a lot. but when I printed it to tape, it just like tamed everything. And it was really nice. and that's what you hear like on like all throughout the record. But yeah, man.

Brian Funk (09:42.064)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (09:42.933)

Definitely a a world that that I unlocked during this during the making of Reversa.

Brian Funk (09:48.779)

yeah, that's cool. You found some new territory. I guess that's why you get excited for the next thing, right? 'Cause like, now they did that. You know, your vocals sound really smooth on the record. that was something I wanted to ask you about. I'm kinda surprised to hear like you like to saturate a lot because they don't have like the distorted saturated sound, but it's

Tim Atlas (09:50.226)

Yeah. Exactly.

More toys, more toys.

Brian Funk (10:16.9)

It's very smooth, I guess, subtle warmth, I guess you're getting out of it then. So how d how do you like to approach them?

Tim Atlas (10:20.094)

Yeah. Yeah, man. Thank you. so for vocals, what am I doing?

Brian Funk (10:27.632)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Atlas (10:33.374)

I guess it like varied from song to song. for only loves to blame. Definitely had like that tapey thing going on. And then I I bought a a spring reverb. And yeah. And I tracked like some of the scratch vocals through it and just like printed it just to like interact with with the verb.

and that was really nice because that informed like a lot of the melodies and and and the performance. and but yeah, I mean as far as like vocal production, I'm always stacking. I'm a big stacker. I love like third harmonies and fourths and fifths and until I feel like I'm doing too much. I feel like that's a good thing with vocals. You should do more.

Brian Funk (11:30.352)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (11:32.414)

but yeah, nothing out of the ordinary, man. I'm just I'm just kind of playing around till something works. But I have a nice little like chain in here. and and yeah, just trying to turn like as many real knobs as possible. and and and seeing where I land. But yeah.

Brian Funk (11:54.033)

Hm. Yeah, well that's nice. And I guess, when you get those real knobs, y you don't get to rely on the preset. Right? Like 'cause you can dial it in one day like, I really love the way my vocal sound and save that preset as like a a rack or whatever you got going on and while that's very nice, sometimes you just sort of stay there. You know, you don't try new things out.

Tim Atlas (12:03.76)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (12:18.621)

Totally. Yeah. I'm a big like printer too. Like I you know, like optionality is so nice, but I think we're really like cursed with with optionality. There's just like so many things we can do, man. So for me, I'm just like, let's make it sound good and then let's commit you know. And my mixer doesn't, you know, he doesn't appreciate that, but

Brian Funk (12:47.174)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Atlas (12:48.189)

I don't know. I just feel like however you can get the idea down like as quick as possible and have it be, you know, as much of the final thing in the beginning, like that's that's kind of where I like to land.

Brian Funk (13:06.284)

Mm. Okay. That is a couple of threads to pull on here. You you've definitely tapped into something that comes up a lot when I talk with people and we have these conversations is I and I think it's like the modern musician's problem is there's so many options. Like we can do so much. It's amazing. It's all of my dreams come true when I was a kid with a four track, wishing I could have even just more tracks or other instruments. But now we got it and it's

Tim Atlas (13:11.302)

Okay.

Brian Funk (13:34.938)

It's a problem that you don't know where to go. But that that method and and Ableton Live just added the the bounce in place features, which I'm just crazy about because you can just commit with like a quick click and what you had is n now it's there and now you have to react to it. Instead of making something new, I'm recording my new track and it

Tim Atlas (13:48.5)

crazy about because you can just commit but I can quit play.

Brian Funk (14:01.231)

Well, this is a really cool sound, but now I gotta fix the vocal. Now I gotta go fix the snare. Now I and then you by the time you get back around to that track you just recorded, you realize it doesn't fit anymore either. And you just kinda tweak and tweak. But when you commit, you're stuck and now now you get creative on how and how to figure out to put that into your music and add to it.

Tim Atlas (14:07.108)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (14:12.031)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (14:24.002)

Yeah, man. Yeah, that's exactly that's kind of exactly why I like to do it, because I just I don't want to think about it anymore. Like I made the decision, it was my intuition, and it's like time to think about the next thing.

Brian Funk (14:35.259)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (14:39.109)

But the your mixing engineer sometimes says all that reverb.

Tim Atlas (14:42.552)

Yeah, he's like, Do you have a dry version? Like, what? No. Sorry, man. But I'm getting better.

Brian Funk (14:51.105)

How often would you say, that's a problem versus h it moves you forward in the writing process, in the producing process?

Tim Atlas (15:03.522)

great question. I would say it's like eighty twenty.

Yeah, I think like for the most part and a lot of a lot of the effects that I'm printing, like during the performance, they're sort of light, you know? Like just enough to get a bit of a vibe. I'm not I'm not like smashing it like crazy and you know, reverb at eleven or anything, but

Yeah, I feel like just enough to to give me a little something. and like that's not to say I don't tweak after, you know? Like I think I'm still like working on it, but it's just like one less thing that I have to think about. So yeah, I would say most of the time, like I don't I don't really regret it. but there are certain moments where it's like, ugh, I wish I

Brian Funk (16:06.757)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (16:08.341)

I wish I had the dry.

Brian Funk (16:11.087)

Yeah, okay. I 'cause that's kinda how I feel and that's what I say a lot too, is like, look, yeah, once in a while, you know, that that bounce or that print is gonna mess you up and you'll wish. But for all the other times where you move to the next step because of it, I like All right, so once in a while a bridge is burnt, but you know, at least you know

Tim Atlas (16:24.062)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Atlas (16:33.387)

Yeah. I mean like I'm just trying to not to be in my own way, you know? Like I'm just I'm just at the end of the day, like, yeah, I produce my own stuff and I I love producing music, but I just wanna write a good song and like serve the song and and workflow is is just like super important for me to to tap into that.

Brian Funk (16:39.951)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (17:02.044)

So I just gotta like keep it moving, you know? Especially when someone's in the studio and you're like producing for them. Just like I don't wanna I don't wanna like heater like the whole time while they're sitting on the couch like in the back, like, you know, just waiting for me to get it perfect so we could write the verse.

Brian Funk (17:10.275)

Right.

Brian Funk (17:20.355)

Yeah. Right. You're like trying to scoop out some resonant frequency in a snare drum for fifteen minutes and they're now they're uninspired, you know. They forgot what the idea was. Yeah. I think that's true when you're solo too. you know, I get I see that a lot when I work with my bandmates.

Tim Atlas (17:29.621)

Yeah. And then all the momentum's gone. Yeah, man.

Brian Funk (17:44.528)

The it's like, okay, okay, yeah, they don't have time for this. Like w I'll figure that out when they're not here. But when it's me, it's it's very easy to just be like, Well, you know what? I'm gonna really get to the bottom of this little noise and once I do that, like I'm out of it and that's it's the same kind of thing, like, I've I'm not feeling this idea anymore. I forget where it was gonna go.

Tim Atlas (17:57.013)

Totally.

Tim Atlas (18:06.013)

Yeah, a hundred percent man. I'm definitely fueled by anxiety, you know, that like that that everyone's like having a good time.

Brian Funk (18:14.435)

Yeah. I yeah, well that's part of it, right? Like you're not just producing the music, you're kind of producing the whole energy of the day and keeping everyone in especially in the more traditional sense of producer, like in the in the older days, like they weren't really touching the controls too much. They were more making sure the production itself is happening and moving forward.

Tim Atlas (18:25.929)

Yeah. That's one thing.

Tim Atlas (18:42.333)

Honestly, like vibe techs, you know? They're just like really like cognizant of like the energy in the room and then like shifting things when they need to be shifted. That's something I'm still working on. That's like, I feel like that is I don't know if if you can actually learn that. I feel like it's a personality trait, you know?

Brian Funk (18:45.275)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (19:05.335)

Mm.

Yeah, it's almost like hospitality or like a different industry. Right. Yeah.

Tim Atlas (19:11.22)

It really is. Hospitality therapist, producer, engineer.

Brian Funk (19:19.323)

Very true, but that's important. I guess too when when you're at a certain level, like everyone's kinda good at what they do. Now you kinda need those people that are, you know, fun to work with and keep you moving and you know, easy to be around.

Tim Atlas (19:37.469)

Yeah. Yeah. Super important.

Brian Funk (19:42.373)

Hmm. So you're saying you really like to capture as much of it as you can right in the early stages, those you know, ideas, the feelings, whatever it is when you're writing.

Tim Atlas (19:55.559)

Yeah, to some degree. I mean like every day is is a new day, you know? Like I think that's the goal as far as like like I sort of know when I have something. in that first session, you know? And when you know that you have something, then then I think you can sort of get into the weeds with it. But

Brian Funk (20:05.006)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Atlas (20:23.11)

Yeah, for the most part, man, I think like

I'm just trying to serve the song as much as I can, like in in the beginning, like and not getting in my way of you know, all the bells and whistles.

Brian Funk (20:39.46)

Hm. I think pretty much all of my favorite musicians are serving the song. Right? Like, none of my favorite guitar players are the ones that are playing the most notes per bar, you know. singers, it's not like the most vocal runs or anything like that.

Tim Atlas (20:48.636)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (20:57.169)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (21:05.7)

But it does seem like something that maybe a lot of people don't understand. Do you mind explaining what you actually mean by serve the song? Like I mean, it should be like music one one probably, but

Tim Atlas (21:17.081)

Yeah, no, no. what do I mean by that?

Tim Atlas (21:26.318)

I mean like at the end of the day the the the song is is the melody and the chords. and you have to like make sure that everything surrounding that is like sort of supporting those two things, right? I mean like that's basically like what a song is. so I don't know, I just feel like

Because of the optionality and like you could really produce a song out in so many different ways. I just I I try to keep it like pretty simple. and I try to make sure that I mean like our sessions just get so huge, you know. We have like 60 tracks, you know. but I like

Brian Funk (22:19.844)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (22:25.611)

when like one synth patch is is doing the thing and it's serving the the purpose, right? Like

I don't know if I want to add another like synth patch on top of it and then like add an arpeggiator on top of it and then add like a counter melody on top of it. Like I just I don't think that that ever really sounds great. Like when I listen to music, I kind of want to know like what I'm hearing, you know? I'm like, okay, there's like there's a pad right there. And there's like like a guitar melody there.

Brian Funk (22:54.159)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (23:07.22)

But like because we can track as many things as possible, like

I don't know. I think a a lot of us do that. And it takes some like restraint to really like highlight the the melody and the chords and the musicality. Does that make sense?

Brian Funk (23:16.931)

Mm.

Brian Funk (23:29.666)

It makes a lot of sense, yeah. I can remember when I first started

working on music in a computer where you had infinite tracks and it was like a badge of honor. This track has eighty-two you know audio tracks in it. And and like some s you're like, wow, how did you do you know, how did you get that one? And you almost feel like I'm not legit if I don't have scrolling, you know, meters in my track where you just keep going down and down and down.

Tim Atlas (23:42.573)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (23:50.73)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (24:00.813)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (24:04.056)

I feel a lot less that way now. I've I've found that it's kinda I think of it a lot. I teach high school English as a day job and I I teach music production online for Berkeley and when I have it's like s it's like I think fifteen to twenty is the number.

Tim Atlas (24:26.069)

Brian Funk (24:26.614)

Up to that, I have individuals. And I can like get to know you, I can get to know your writing or your how you make music and your style. Once it gets past that though, it's no longer individuals, it's a crowd. And it's kind of that way with the tracks and the music. Like I can hear your pad. That's that's a cool like Juno pad in there and that nice guitar part. But once there's like much more than that, it's like, it's the wall of sound effect. And I I

Tim Atlas (24:52.873)

Yes.

Brian Funk (24:54.559)

It might sound nice, but I I don't know what I'm hearing anymore. It's just a lot of stuff going on.

Tim Atlas (24:59.98)

That's such a good way to put it. Yeah. It really is a crowd, you know? And it's hard to like point out like who's who because there's there's so much shit going on.

Brian Funk (25:09.67)

Yeah, right. Right. I think the challenge for me is that when I'm making the song, I you know, you get to know every one of those eighty two tracks you've just put down, right? Because you've spent time on it and

Tim Atlas (25:24.255)

Mm.

Brian Funk (25:27.844)

For every single track in a song, it's almost like I'm the one guitar player in the band that wants to be the loudest. You know, like I'm gonna turn my guitar up because I'm the most important. But I feel that way almost like about every track in the song. 'Cause I I put them all there. So and I also think as you get familiar with it, you you you know all the tricks and twists and turns that are happening in the music that you kinda wanna throw something else in as a surprise almost for yourself.

Tim Atlas (25:36.235)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (25:43.817)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (25:56.386)

I'm always trying to figure out how to know when I'm going too far. 'Cause I'm too close, really.

Tim Atlas (26:03.826)

Yeah. I mean, it's a hard one, man, especially when you're when you're producing and spending a lot of time like by yourself, you know, you're just like grinding your gear gears until you're like, is this good? Does this suck? and then before you know it, you have like 80 demos and like you have no idea what to do. But one thing that's humbling for me is when I pass a session onto a mixer and

Brian Funk (26:14.432)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (26:19.723)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Atlas (26:33.767)

They sort of have an interpretation of what's supposed to pop out. And all of a sudden, like a lot of those like little elements are like turned down in the mix. It's like, yeah, because like when you first heard it, it's probably like more distracting than than you thought. Than I thought, you know? so yeah.

Brian Funk (26:48.649)

Mm.

Brian Funk (26:57.655)

Hm. Yeah.

Tim Atlas (27:04.295)

That's another process where it's just like a whole a whole other, you know. I don't know. But

Brian Funk (27:13.101)

Yeah, yeah. Well w when they're they don't care, right? Like they have no emotional attachment to anything in the song, so you know, yeah, we could w I'm just gonna pull those down. Yeah.

Tim Atlas (27:21.768)

True. True. They definitely don't care as much as you. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (27:27.895)

Yeah, I I was talking to somebody that does guitar tracks and you know, like remotely. So they'll like do a session and record a bunch of guitars and send off like, you know, ten tracks of guitars and then when they hear the final it's like it's just that one. You know, like they threw everything out like I thought it was being helpful, like, you know, give their money's worth, but really they they just want the one little thing and just too much.

Tim Atlas (27:43.497)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (27:51.592)

Mmm, yeah, yeah. I see that. For sure, man.

Brian Funk (27:57.242)

Yeah, it's a tricky thing 'cause you like you said, you're alone, you're getting familiar with everything. but but the listener is really entering the world of your music for the first time. And for example, like listening to your record. it starts I think I believe the first track starts off with like a little drum fill, right? And and like suddenly you're in and

There was so much happening in my head listening to it, like, okay, like this has got like kind of a lo-fi flavor, and then there's like it's like sixties, seventies then like when you came in, I'm like, like this is l like that kind of vocal style from some of those groups I mentioned before. So and it's just happening constantly and you're you're taking in the lyrics, the chord changes.

Tim Atlas (28:42.032)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (28:51.295)

All of which every time you go and press play again, you already know. You understand it all. You have it all figured out in your head.

Tim Atlas (28:59.074)

Yeah. Yeah, context is everything, isn't it? Like that listening experience.

Brian Funk (29:02.177)

Hmm. I think it it was a nice ride though. you you kind of introduced a lot of the different elements, not only like per song, like kind of little by little, but as the album went on too, like there it seemed like the more guitar stuff came in later and more of like an almost indie rock, psych rock kind of sound going on that

wasn't really there in the beginning, but you warmed us up. You like said, Okay, here's the world, but there's a lot of like little countries in here we're gonna go to

Tim Atlas (29:35.749)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's true, man. that it's it's got me nostalgic for for the EP. I'm like, okay, where where did I go? definitely like started out in that sort of sixties, seventies like area where I was like doing a lot of like spring reverbs and tape stuff and like like

Brian Funk (29:48.715)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (30:05.585)

in only loves to blame and reverso. I think like I went into couple up or anchor after that. and

I think like couple up was almost like a a reference to a lot of stuff that I've I've put out, you know. I think I love taking like artistic liberties and and trying new things that maybe my audience haven't heard. But I also think that

you shouldn't alienate your audience as well, you know, like giving them a a little familiarity, I think, is a good thing. And if you can find a middle ground where it's like, okay, maybe I've done a version of this before. but I'm doing like a couple different things and I've never, you know, saying about the subject matter or

Brian Funk (30:50.76)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (30:58.265)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (31:15.254)

you know, stuff like that where I just feel like, yeah, maybe it wasn't so much in that like 70s realm, but it still felt like a thread into all the other stuff that I've done, like within the context of of my like library, you know. so and on top of that, like I really liked I really liked some of those songs that were like.

Brian Funk (31:35.779)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (31:45.497)

less like vintage inspired. And I was also going back to them, you know, during the making of the record. I'm just like, okay, how else can I can I glue these songs? Like what other elements can I take from, you know, only loves to blame and put it into like 10th mile. and sometimes that worked where it was like, okay, like this feels like a nice glue.

and sometimes it didn't work. And I was just like, okay, you know what? Fuck it. I like the song and like I I want it on this record because it feels like true to who I am at this moment in time. You know? So it's like a a give and take as far as like creative decisions and just like what I really love and just want to do.

Brian Funk (32:27.767)

Right.

Brian Funk (32:38.713)

Hm. So that's cool. So you're once you have like some of these songs, you're kind of thinking about like, all right, how do we make work together in an album? So you're bringing maybe like, is it like sounds or kind of production choices that you're kind of pulling from one and bringing into the other?

Tim Atlas (32:39.915)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (32:59.56)

Exactly. Yeah. So like, you know, you saw the Juno, like that sort of makes an appearance and everything. like even like the little like tape stuff that I did sort of subtly makes its way. the way that I like produce the vocal too, like as far as like the stacks and like the harmonies, like I sort of trust in the process, like it's it's really not different.

like throughout each song. Unless I want like a single vocal like up front. I think like the philosophy like still remains the same. I know I was like messing around with like real drums versus like drum machines and like programmed drums. So like I threw a drum machine and couple up like against like the more real

like drum sample reverso. I did a similar thing where it was like some more like drum machine electronic elements against like the real drum sound that my friend Effa recorded at his studio. so yeah just like you know finding all of like the little elements and making sure that you know a couple things sort of like are borrowed from

One song to another.

think that makes sense. Yeah. But that's you know, that's that's what I did.

Brian Funk (34:32.589)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's nice. And it it does feel very cohesive and I guess those things make a big difference. I really like the drum production on the record a lot. I was almost wondering if some of the snares or maybe even the kits were going through like guitar amps or something, but I'm guessing maybe that's the spring reverb sound I'm hearing.

Tim Atlas (34:55.74)

Yeah, I use this this this plug-in. what's it called? It's the telefunken echo mixer. Do you use that one? it's interesting. So it does have like it has a spring like built into it, but it's like these like three preamps that kind of interact with each other. So I put that on a bus. and so I was like sending a lot of the drums.

Brian Funk (35:06.923)

No, I don't know it.

Tim Atlas (35:25.371)

I sent a lot of shit to the to that bus. But yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely played around with that one and then obviously like like my TAC tape machine sending it through there. I also sent some stuff through the Chroma console. and like yeah, it's a workhorse, man. It can do it can do so much.

Brian Funk (35:27.605)

Huh. Yeah.

Brian Funk (35:46.277)

I got one right there next to me. Love that thing. Really can.

Tim Atlas (35:55.6)

But yeah, like sometimes I would throw it through like the cassette texture and like send it back and then layer that in like with the more like clean stuff. so yeah, just a lot of like layering and like tinkering until I find like a little middle ground. But yeah, thanks, man. That means a lot. I like spend so much time thinking about drums. So

Brian Funk (36:00.153)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (36:20.396)

Yeah, they sound cool. they've got a a good like you know, one of the things I think so important about drums is like they have to sound like they're somewhere. and and that doesn't necessarily mean like a lot of reverb either. some t I like a lot of the sound I think of those old records are pretty dead drums actually. And but

But they you know, they're they're just in a real place, so they they it has to come across and I thought there was a lot of cool stuff happening with yours. I was wondering if it was coming out of some sort of speaker or yeah, that makes sense though, going through something like that and like in the chroma console type of thing, yeah.

Tim Atlas (36:56.063)

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of those drums are like mono too. So it it is interesting, man. what else did I what else did I use?

Brian Funk (37:04.674)

Hm.

Tim Atlas (37:12.35)

I also used like the UADX like Ocean Ways studio stuff. because you know, this room is pretty dead. and then also I'm just like taking samples from online. So like I'm definitely putting a lot of stuff in a room, like to make it feel like sort of live.

Brian Funk (37:30.252)

Yeah. Right. Yeah, it comes across. It's really cool. how are you running it like through your outboard gear? Are you using like external audio device and live or are you just r write out the outputs on your interface?

Tim Atlas (37:46.362)

I have a patch bay. Yeah. So like I have my Apollo like linked up with my patch bay. And and so that's just been just been like a game changer. Another thing that like I never did before this record. So like I can run you know the synth through the Chrome console, like into whatever. And that's the kind of optionality I like though.

Brian Funk (38:13.367)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (38:15.522)

But yeah, so the patch bay has been big.

Brian Funk (38:20.854)

Yeah, I got one a few years back in same way. I'm like, everything's connected. All I gotta do is just move a couple cables and you know, you're in. And that that's how I have the Chroma console too. It's right in there. and I've got the external audio device inside Alive saved as a preset 'cause that device allows you to send the audio out and then back in all within one little device. So you drop it in like a plug-in and

Tim Atlas (38:25.965)

Yeah.

Exactly.

Tim Atlas (38:46.532)

I should be I should be doing that.

Brian Funk (38:51.508)

yeah, it's it it's a great one to that kind of stuff is so handy like workflow, right? Like it's really fast. I just drop it in like a plug in and as long as I have it patched in, I can put it on anything I want and and since there's only one Chroma console, you almost always have to print it, which is another kind of cool thing about using it, 'cause if you want to ever use it again on a track, I mean unless you're doing like a bus or something, but

Tim Atlas (38:57.709)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (39:06.219)

Amazing.

Tim Atlas (39:12.014)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:20.094)

I wind up printing it a lot and now I'm stuck with it. In in a good way though.

Tim Atlas (39:22.442)

Yeah. Yeah, dude. No. Absolutely. We are the same. I love that.

Brian Funk (39:30.24)

Yeah, that was cool. so in the press release, I guess it was, one of the things you were kinda dealing with as far as like lyrically and and thematically in the album was you moved back to LA. but being in the same place, but it's different. now

Tim Atlas (39:51.019)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:59.18)

When I read that I was like, see, that reminds me a lot of like making a song where you come up with maybe the a lot of the idea tends to happen pretty quick. I think just because you're making the big decision, chords, melody, you know, like rhythm. Like those are like core decisions, foundational. But sometimes you come back to the song a day, a week later, and you're not the same person. You've changed. It's it's that old like

Tim Atlas (40:28.584)

Mm-hmm. wow. I haven't heard of that. That's so good though.

Brian Funk (40:28.617)

I think it's a Buddhist thing where you can't go in the same river twice 'cause the river's always changing and so are you. So

Brian Funk (40:38.325)

Yeah, so like I I've been thinking about this a lot as far as like the way songs are and how we are when we're making like that day versus when we come back to them and you know, now we're kind of at a different perspective. I've l I just wanted to sort of ask you to expand on that idea w with whether it's through the songs, the lyrics or just the move in general, how that is coming back to a place that might be like home, but it's like, you know

Bizarro world version of home.

Tim Atlas (41:09.717)

Yeah. okay, yeah, there's a few there's a few sides to this question.

Tim Atlas (41:26.47)

Yeah, coming back to LA was a little different. I used to live, you know, like not very far from here. but like new businesses were popping up. I'm a little bit older, you know, so I'm not like a lot of my friends like I have I haven't seen super often or they have like babies, you know, so it's like

Brian Funk (41:55.329)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (41:56.476)

You know, they're busy, which is like, you know, awesome. But also like, you know, I don't see them as much. So yeah, a lot of the record is is sort of around that because there was a lot of duality in sort of my relationship with LA. and just like my relationships with people who live here. so it was it was definitely like

sort of discombobulating. I guess that has nothing to do with production, but that's like the that's basically the the anchor to to this record. And it's funny that you you compared it to songs because yeah like I definitely like different things on different days and especially like years apart.

Brian Funk (42:53.303)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (42:55.302)

you know, coming back here after like, I don't know, three, four years in New York. yeah, I don't like the same things, you know? And then I don't dress the same way. So, it is interesting because like you're sort of like confronting like an old version of yourself and you're like nurturing like sort of older friendships and and when it came and when it comes to the songs and like making this record,

Brian Funk (43:07.447)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Atlas (43:26.37)

I try to do it. I tried to do it quickly. because the last record that I did, it was called Enchante. And I did it over the course of like two and a half years. And I felt like it sort of lacked the glue that this one does have. just because over the course of that time, like

Like I said, like your interests are are changing like every day, every week. and and it's hard to find like the thread at the end of the day, you know? So what was really nice about this record was I kinda locked myself in here and just like really tried to write good songs. and I'm gonna go on a tangent here, but

I was having a tough time like being in my car all the time in LA. And so I bought a Vespa. And and it it it's like, you know, one of my greatest joys, honestly. I ride it like every day now and it's and it's awesome. But like the day that I bought it, I bought it from a guy that lived like 30 miles from me. And I don't know what it is about the marketing of Vespa, but they make it seem like anybody could ride one like on day one.

Brian Funk (44:28.599)

Okay, nice.

Brian Funk (44:36.481)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (44:52.111)

And so I decided to ride it to my place. And I made it twenty twenty miles, like in a straight line, because like that was the, you know, that was the route. But then I fell and then I broke my wrist like while I was making this record. And and so I couldn't play guitar for like a long time, like two months. and so that sort of forced me to like

Brian Funk (44:52.193)

What?

Brian Funk (45:10.081)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (45:17.697)

No.

Tim Atlas (45:21.507)

you know, collaborate more, work with different people, like have other guitarists come in here. I could still play piano, but I would have to like make it like vertical. Like my hand was like stuck like this. So like I was like doing some of this stuff. but yeah like while I had that sort of philosophy. Yeah, exactly.

Brian Funk (45:35.057)

well.

Stand up piano.

Tim Atlas (45:44.707)

I had that philosophy of just like, okay, like let's get it done quick. Let's like write it quick because like this is where I'm at in my life and this is like what I wanna like project to the world. Life happens, you know, and it and it took a little bit longer. And so the longer that it took, I I think it was I had to make sort of a conscious effort to like sort of stay in that stay in that mindset. but yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. Life happens and like your influences change, but you know, I th I think I made it work with this record, so I I am happy with it.

Brian Funk (46:27.978)

Hm. I think you did too. that's kind of a wild part of the story. you know, you would totally be forgiven if you, you know, took the two months off. I can't work on this, I need to play guitar, but the fact that you still pushed on and then the different ways that took you, that kind of you know, that wouldn't it I don't want to say it's like

Tim Atlas (46:53.081)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (46:57.758)

sort of making lemon made out of lemons kind of thing where, you know, you you were in this situation and you found a way to work with it. And it's so much what I think we have to do in the creative process anyway. It's just here's a problem, solve it, figure it out. And th that's like a another level, you know, physical issue like that.

Tim Atlas (47:12.332)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (47:16.981)

Yeah, man. Definitely, definitely affected the way that this record came out. because it forced me to just like get out of my comfort zone, you know. but yeah. I sometimes I forget about that because like, you know, I can play now and like I'm I'm back on the Vespa and but yeah, it is crazy to think about.

Brian Funk (47:28.405)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:38.206)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (47:42.197)

Yeah. You gotta get back on that Vespa. Metaphorically speaking. it's cool though, like that's a a good thing to take away lesson wise, you know, from what you've done that you know, you didn't let it stop you, you figured out a way and I I don't know, life has a way of doing things like that for us, throwing us the curve ball and then

Tim Atlas (47:45.535)

Yeah, dude. Number one.

Brian Funk (48:10.248)

our solutions become part of it, you know, part of the like the way this record came out. Yeah. Yeah, good thinking. getting some friends involved.

Tim Atlas (48:16.567)

Real. Real shit, man.

Tim Atlas (48:22.986)

Yeah, honestly. Yeah. I like I I really like nurtured friendships and and collaboration during that time. Cause I was like still able to, you know, like drive a session, but it it sort of exercised my producer brain, you know. Sometimes like I'll just play something because I know what I want, but it's nice to kind of like tell someone.

This is what I'm hearing. And then it's it's their interpretation of it, you know.

Brian Funk (48:56.586)

Yeah. Right. That's a that's a fun part of the whole collaboration process, right? Like you have your idea or th or someone has their idea and then it just takes you in a different direction too. The surprises of it.

Tim Atlas (49:10.602)

Yeah. Yeah, it's my favorite thing.

Brian Funk (49:13.224)

I've come to appreciate that a lot more after having a lot of time working alone, making stuff exactly the way you want it. You know, growing up playing in bands, you kind of dreamed of those powers and w you know, we'd always get frustrated at like maybe like whoever wouldn't play the part the way we wanted it or

Tim Atlas (49:31.051)

True.

Brian Funk (49:37.384)

whatnot, but now it's like, Okay, you know, yeah, I wouldn't do that, but let's see what I can do with it. And a lot of times I it makes me grow a lot figuring out how to work with what's being put towards me.

Tim Atlas (49:44.112)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (49:49.288)

Okay.

Tim Atlas (49:53.305)

It's very much like being in a band. And I think like I'm I'm I'm always chasing that feeling, you know, just because yeah, the current model of the the independent musician or or whatever it may be, like it's to do everything and just to be like, you know, a multi-instrumentalist or whatever. But

Brian Funk (50:13.78)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (50:19.908)

I loved like the camaraderie of being in a band and like the back and forth and like seeing a song come to life like amongst like other individuals. I feel like it's just like the most rewarding thing and it's also something like shared that you can you can all be like stoked on.

Brian Funk (50:37.483)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:40.97)

Right. Yeah, the getting that energy back. It's great when you're alone, you're like, Yes, this sounds awesome, but there's like knowing a high five, you know, there when you're when you're playing and sometimes especially like loud and you can't talk and you just look and like everyone's smiling and like kinda nodding their head, like unspoken, you know? Yeah.

Tim Atlas (50:47.194)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (51:00.917)

So fun, dude. So fun.

Brian Funk (51:07.712)

that feedback from other people is really valuable.

Tim Atlas (51:11.406)

Yeah. Yeah. Like the the the human interaction is is so important. Like you really do hear it, you know.

Brian Funk (51:19.602)

I mean, forever that's been how music was made, right? This whole solo guy producer thing is pretty new. I mean the only thing anywhere near that was I guess like the one man band with like the bass drum on the back and like the cymbal on the on his foot stomping around, you know. But

Tim Atlas (51:24.399)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (51:37.572)

Yeah. Yeah dude. Like that guy, that that guy had to walk so Tamapala could run, you know?

Brian Funk (51:48.018)

Yeah. There you go. That's funny. Well, you do a lot of songwriting for others as well. I mean, y congratulations, you you're won a Grammy for songwriting. I mean, that's pretty awesome.

Tim Atlas (51:51.812)

that's so good.

Tim Atlas (52:05.35)

Thanks, man. Thank you. Yeah, that's weird.

Brian Funk (52:09.909)

Yeah, it's c it's cool. th that's a that's an amazing accomplishment and I'm curious how those like kind of writing for other people maybe or even with other people is like different for you compared to by yourself.

Tim Atlas (52:27.406)

Yeah.

I when I like go into a writing session with other people, I try to like get a gauge on like what everyone does, like what their thing is, you know. because if there's like three guitarists in the room, then it's like, okay, I'm gonna pick up something else, you know? and so like that's that's like one thing that I think about like

Brian Funk (52:52.393)

Hmm. Hmm.

Tim Atlas (53:00.854)

I I I play different roles like in in different sessions, you know? So like when I'm here, it's my studio. And so like I'm sort of driving and like producing and then like writing with like the artist or like with my co-writer, like simultaneously. But sometimes when I'm going to other studios or if I'm working with another producer,

I try to I try to figure out like what my role is and like how I can add value to that session. Like why am I here, you know? so yeah, it really depends on the situation. I love doing all that stuff because it sort of informs my artist project and it like when I wear like a different hat, it sort of lets me come back to my artist stuff.

with some context and like with some like fresh ears, you know, because I was like, if I was playing in like pop world or rock world, I can come back here and like kind of do like a mixture of those things or, you know, just like yeah. So I don't know. I love doing I love doing all those things. I want to do more actually.

Brian Funk (54:24.637)

Hmm. Well that sounds like you're serving the song again. You're finding your place and stepping out of the way. If there's other guitar players, let them do their thing.

Tim Atlas (54:28.653)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (54:35.894)

I try to. I think like ego can get in the way sometimes, you know? Like sometimes you just like wanna put your stamp on a song, you know, and you're just like, okay, how can I like like contribute something? So I think lately I've been trying to fight that where it's like I will only like spew out ideas if they feel like

you know, if if I'm being like a vessel for like this artist or whatever. But yeah, I definitely am always learning and and trying to like figure out how I can be better in those situations because yeah, I do it a lot.

Brian Funk (55:24.405)

Hm. I could see how stepping out of your world, like you said, going into like a different genre. You would think maybe that would take away or make it harder to find your own stuff. But I I'd have to imagine actually the opposite is probably true. Where you get to sort of I don't know it

I'm think I'm thinking almost like acting or like Halloween costumes or something where you you kinda try on a different look and then you're like, yeah, like yeah, that's not me, but I get why I'm me, you know, over here now or I can take something maybe even from that.

Tim Atlas (55:54.157)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (56:00.65)

Right.

Tim Atlas (56:05.342)

Yeah, yeah. I think like having that context going back to to whatever it is I'm doing at the moment in for like my artist project, I think it only helps. And you know, yeah. I don't I don't really think that it ever like takes me out. I mean it does take me out and that's like that's the whole point. You know, I'm trying to like get out of this, like I'm always in this. I'm always like thinking about, you know, like the next Tim Atlas thing, but

Brian Funk (56:26.963)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (56:35.039)

It's it's it is nice to like

Try and do that for for somebody else.

Brian Funk (56:42.473)

Hm. Well, you get that perspective. I mean, I'm kinda trying to do that all the time too when watching movies or shows or listening to different music just to see what I can take from it or even just going outside and you know, being in the world, going out and you know, what what can I find that's inspiring or interesting to explore?

Tim Atlas (57:02.518)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Atlas (57:10.183)

Yeah, I think that's that's also something that like full time musicians like struggle with. I think the the dream for a lot of people is to be full time music, but when you're like always doing music, you you gotta you gotta do some different stuff. You gotta do some life stuff to inform the music, you know? Yeah.

Brian Funk (57:34.087)

Yeah. Yeah, I I don't think you necessarily have to be like the suffering. You know. This might be more from like when I grew up, like listening to like nineties grunge. It was like sort of this feeling like you have to have like a miserable life and and like find that's what you write about. I don't think it has to be that, but I do think it is important to live a little, experience things and

Tim Atlas (57:42.163)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (57:52.773)

Right, right.

Brian Funk (58:02.322)

Get out, you know. Otherwise you're just gonna start writing songs about like running your scales and your modes and

Tim Atlas (58:09.468)

Yeah. Every metaphor is just like a piece of gear. Yeah, dude. Exactly.

Brian Funk (58:15.666)

Yeah, right.

That's funny. So are you I saw some video of you guys performing. Are you doing any live shows playing out for the album at all? Or is it more just like the studio project?

Tim Atlas (58:34.492)

yeah, so we just did like school night. It was like a showcase in LA last week. And we also just announced the tour. So we're doing six shows across the US. we're gonna be in Brooklyn over at elsewhere. and that'll be after summer, so it'll it'll be in the fall. and until then, yeah, I think I am gonna be a bit of a studio rat, sort of thinking of like

Brian Funk (58:50.791)

Okay, cool.

Tim Atlas (59:03.64)

the next thing, you know, it's always the next thing, but also taking my time with it. I just bought a couple new toys that like I'm very excited about. So yeah I'm just gonna be beep booping in here all summer

Brian Funk (59:20.848)

Uhhuh. What'd you get? What are you excited about?

Tim Atlas (59:23.451)

I got the I got the Fender Tone Master Pro like modeling pedal. It's like the ant modeling and like with like all the effects and stuff. I don't know if you could actually, I wonder if I could show you. you could see it. But it has like this this like like touch screen and and you it's it's actually gigantic. but like it feels like a real like pedal.

Brian Funk (59:33.606)

okay.

Brian Funk (59:40.244)

yeah, look at that. it's huge.

Tim Atlas (59:53.474)

chain with like an amp and I don't know. I'm a very visual person and for all the live stuff like I've been using like the line six like Helix stuff and it just feels like parameters. It doesn't feel like like I'm interacting with it really. so I just got this. I'm very stoked on it because I put it into the patch bay I put it in the chroma console so now I'm running like you know

Brian Funk (59:58.953)

Hm.

Brian Funk (01:00:14.184)

Right.

Tim Atlas (01:00:22.316)

a bunch of shit through it. and then the other thing that I got was the the LM drum by Berenger. Have you seen this?

Brian Funk (01:00:24.19)

That's awesome.

Brian Funk (01:00:31.224)

cool. Yes. The like the Lindrum recreation to put it politely. Yeah.

Tim Atlas (01:00:36.29)

Yeah. Yeah, dude. Pretty much. Pretty much. I mean, like, it's a Lindrum recreation, but it also is like a sampling machine. So you can pretty much upload like samples of whatever you want. Like you can upload a whole like 909 kit to it and use like all the parameters in the same way. so yeah, I'm like you know, thinking about the next thing and

Brian Funk (01:00:47.9)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (01:01:06.911)

I feel like if I can have a few like gear staples for like the next sound, then it'll feel like another world and you know, cohesive or whatever you want to call it. But yeah. So that's what I'll be doing. Just chilling here. Fucking around in the studio.

Brian Funk (01:01:19.592)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:01:27.944)

That's cool. Yeah, I those some of those Behringer drum machines are really cool. Like there's like an OBX one too, very similar, I think, to the LM, right? It's I it they're I think they're pretty much almost look exactly the same, you know, but just the different slight differences. But I mean for the price, like that does seem pretty exciting. But that is a cool way to enter

Tim Atlas (01:01:37.912)

I haven't seen.

Tim Atlas (01:01:47.382)

Okay.

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (01:01:54.402)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:01:56.743)

a project too is you know, as much as we were talking about reducing options and all that, but to pick certain things and be like, I'm gonna figure these things out and while I'm doing it I'm gonna make some music with it. And I find that to be an ex an inspiring way to work. Maybe it might be just a little setup or some kind of something like that. Like you said, to create the world to that ties it all together.

Tim Atlas (01:02:11.787)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (01:02:25.656)

Yeah man. I feel like I grew up hearing that like new gear doesn't like buy you inspiration or something like that. But I think it does. I feel like new gear just like gets you excited and it makes you try new things. So yeah, man. I'm I'm trying to be good, but yeah, I I won't be buying anything else for for at least

Brian Funk (01:02:40.229)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:02:46.952)

Yeah, I agree.

Tim Atlas (01:02:55.328)

A little while.

Brian Funk (01:02:56.628)

I I've found like it can inspire you, but it's not gonna make you it's not gonna make your hits for you, it's not gonna make you better necessarily, but it can be something that gets you moving in different directions. So

Tim Atlas (01:03:13.459)

It will make you better. It won't make you better, that's true.

Brian Funk (01:03:17.458)

Well, I bet going on a tour like that will give you some life experiences that'll also fuel the next phase of whatever that becomes. So that's that's good you're getting out there seeing some of the world and living.

Tim Atlas (01:03:33.389)

Yeah, yeah, I love Tor. I love Tour. I love the studio more, but I also, you know, love meeting people that like have like felt something from this music. And yeah, that's another thing like Spotify and you know, like we're and algorithms. It's all just like data and numbers and it it doesn't

ever really feel real until like you meet the people that are actually listening to it. So yeah, that's gonna be really nice. but definitely bracing myself, you know, gonna hydrate and you know try and not age five years on the road.

Brian Funk (01:04:10.502)

Yes. And yeah, the body ages rapidly. Yeah. Well that's awesome. I well, I wish you a lot of luck and all that. and with the new EP as well. It's it's great. I really do enjoy it a lot. I'm I'm very happy to dive into your world of you know, music and then to talk to you and it's cool to

Tim Atlas (01:04:15.194)

my god, tell me about it, dude.

Brian Funk (01:04:37.946)

See a lot of similarities in the stuff I like to do and the way I like to work too and what you're doing. It makes me like what you're doing more. And I think in our world of wherever this technological world is heading, the the artist behind the work is sometimes just as interesting as the work. And it makes they all both kind of come together. And I'm I'm finding that a lot with what you're doing, man. Really digging it.

Tim Atlas (01:05:02.449)

Thank you so much, man. Nah, that means the world, thank you.

Brian Funk (01:05:06.97)

So is there a particular place you wanna tell people to check out your work? I got a few links, a few socials and any favorites, just Spotify, Apple Music or

Tim Atlas (01:05:14.055)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (01:05:18.002)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (01:05:22.279)

yeah, just go ahead and Google Tim Atlas and you know, choose from the litter. I'm I'm all over the the internet, so yeah, you'll find it. no preference personally, but yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:28.244)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:37.712)

Okay, cool. I well I'll put a bunch of them in the show notes for the episode so people can make it easy for them. Yeah. Well thank you very much and and thank you for everyone for listening. Have a good one.

Tim Atlas (01:05:42.479)

Sweet. Thank you, man. I appreciate it.

Tim Atlas (01:05:51.955)

Cheers, man. Thanks.


]]>Grammy-winning Songwriter Tim Atlas on Serving the Song - Music Production Podcast #429Creative Bouncing in Ableton LiveTutorialsBrian FunkSat, 18 Jul 2026 12:41:00 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/creative-bouncing52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a5b73e15ceb5f5c5524443eLearn. Ask. Do: Bouncing to Audio in Ableton Live

This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Bouncing to Audio in Ableton Live.

  • Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

  • Ask - Participate in the discussion and ask questions.

  • Do - Apply the lesson in a short activity. Get feedback and ask follow-up questions.

Join the Music Production Club and attend our meetings live.

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Join the Music Production Club! ]]>Creative Bouncing in Ableton LiveXylo Aria - Music Production for Women - Music Production Podcast #428podcastBrian FunkMon, 13 Jul 2026 13:12:39 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/xylo-aria52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a54e1280848606947af4630Xylo Aria is a singer, producer, and entrepreneur. Xylo founded Music Production for Women (MPW) to help empower and educate women music-makers. Her new album Dream will be released summer 2026.

I’ve been following Xylo’s work for some time now and it was great to speak to her about her work. We discussed building community and the creation of her new album. Xylo has collected a lot of wisdom in her journey and shares it with us today. 

Music Production for Women is running SoundLab, a virtual event on July 14th and 21st, 2026 to help attendees unlock the skills of producing and mixing music. Sign up here: https://musicproductionforwomen.com/soundlab2026

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:00.91)

All right, Xylo, welcome aboard. Great to have you.

Xylo Aria (00:03.848)

Great to be here, Brian. Thanks so much for having me.

Brian Funk (00:07.148)

Yeah, it's nice to have you. It's fun to turn the tables on you for your podcast. MPW the podcast.

Xylo Aria (00:11.556)

It is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's good to be on this side.

Brian Funk (00:16.972)

Yeah. You're doing awesome work. like I told you before we started, I I've seen your stuff pop up here and there in my journeys over the internet. And you're always sending out a positive message, supportive message. which is really important, believe it or not, you know, like working on music and trying to create stuff as much as I love it. It's also the one of the hugest sources of stress and

Frustration sometimes in my life where sometimes you feel like a wizard and you can do anything and other times it's like who do I think I am?

Xylo Aria (00:55.294)

for sure, for sure. But I'm I'm glad that comes across, you know, on the other side of the world and through through what we're doing. So yeah, thank you.

Brian Funk (01:01.486)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:06.648)

Do you wanna give us the the quick pitch about music production for women and tell us you know, how you got that started and all of that kind of stuff. So for people that might not know.

Xylo Aria (01:18.138)

Yeah, yeah. So I started MPW in twenty nineteen to empower more women to produce for themselves and produce music. And I guess it was all based on my own experience as a singer songwriter and unfortunately having some kind of not so great experiences with the producers I was working with and then kind of getting fed up with the whole thing and deciding that

I need to do this myself to have control over the process. And in that that learning process felt a little kind of isolating. I felt like the odd person out a lot of the time in those rooms, but getting to the point where I was producing for myself, I was like, my gosh, like where has this been all my life? And why did it take me so long to to explore this more? And reflecting on that, I was

Brian Funk (02:08.75)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (02:16.914)

thinking about all the things that would have made it easier and more enjoyable a process for me to to get into production and basically created MPW based on what I wish existed when when I got started. So yeah, so everything's built around, you know, community, encouragement, support and around not overcomplicating technical things that I think

don't often need to be overcomplicated.

Brian Funk (02:51.124)

I'm glad you bring that up because I think as I've learned more, I've realized sometimes it's way simpler than you think. You well like an EQ, having seventeen nodes of peaks and valleys, a lot of times it's just a little soft bump. Does the does the job the best. It's funny how we d we just complicate it like crazy.

Xylo Aria (02:53.192)

Ha ha

Xylo Aria (03:02.524)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (03:11.27)

Yeah.

For sure. I

Xylo Aria (03:18.632)

Yeah, I guess that comes with building confidence, isn't it? When you feel like you need to be doing more and justifying having the EQ and you have a hi a bunch of things going on, it's only when you know, even speaking to much more experienced producers and I saw very simple, you know, way they use the EQ, I was like, maybe that's all you need. But maybe that needs confidence that you need to build over time.

Brian Funk (03:26.67)

Hm.

Brian Funk (03:40.878)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (03:45.282)

Yeah, maybe. When I first started doing my live electronic stuff using Ableton Live, I'm I came from playing in bands, playing guitar, rock and b rock and roll type stuff. And that's where I was playing also and I guess this is about like two thousand ten. So the laptop on the stage was kind of like getting the side eye all the time. And a lot of like, You playing dubstep bro? Like that kind of comment, like

Xylo Aria (04:07.389)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (04:11.966)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (04:13.814)

Like kind of talking down to me. So I felt like I had to be doing a lot. So I was always turning a knob and moving a fader. But I'd listen back and I'd be like, this is just chaos. And doing less took a bit of confidence because I was trying to show people like I'm not just checking my email. I'm actually doing something up here. But had to lay back the music really improved a lot from that.

Xylo Aria (04:17.926)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (04:32.264)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (04:40.255)

Mm, mm, yeah, for sure. I mean it is tricky from a live performance perspective. 'cause you yeah, you do feel that pressure to be showing what you're doing. Yeah.

Brian Funk (04:51.906)

Yeah. Yeah, if you hit a drum, right? Like everyone understands what you did. When you twist a knob or push a button, like a lot of times no one even knows what it did.

Xylo Aria (04:56.466)

Yeah. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (05:01.928)

What? Yeah. Yeah yeah, exactly.

Brian Funk (05:07.276)

I think what you said though is a reason a lot of people I think it's why I got into recording myself as well, was yeah, like that control and going and having stuff get recorded for you and realizing it didn't sound the way you wanted it to or people that were more experienced would tell you, No, no, no, no, no, no, that's not how we do it. You just we do it this way And you're like, But my guitar is supposed to be loud or or a loud rock band and like, No no no no no no

Xylo Aria (05:14.022)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (05:24.134)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (05:34.414)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (05:37.07)

Not as much of that or yeah.

Xylo Aria (05:37.959)

Yeah, for sure. Mm. Yeah, like there were times where I paid, you know, like a couple of grand to have a song produced and then never released it because it was just not what I was going for. And yeah, I guess that having that skill just gives you that control, to be able to

realize your sound, even though it takes a while. Takes a while to get there and a lot of frustration to get to that point. But yeah, I think it's it just gives a lot of freedom.

Brian Funk (06:14.157)

That's how you get there, I think, too, is with that freedom to explore and try things out and make the mistakes and maybe even do the things wrong and get the desirable results. And that, you know, the professional or the experienced person would never allow you to do that. You you can't let that meter go in the red, like no, but when you do it without knowing any better, you're like, that's cool.

Xylo Aria (06:26.256)

Mm, mm.

Xylo Aria (06:32.902)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (06:40.942)

Yeah, yeah. That is something that I kind of miss like as you get more familiar with your tools. Like the le there's less chance of those creative accidents. They happen still, but like I I kind of enjoyed that more of not knowing exactly what this was gonna do, but doing it anyway, 'cause I had no rules to follow and being like, that's that's cool. Yeah.

Brian Funk (06:54.861)

Mm.

Brian Funk (07:06.795)

Yeah. That that is the joy, I guess. I I find and you probably do too, that when you work with people that are learning, you see them do these things and it reminds you like, yeah, that's that's what happens when you do that, but it works here. Those fresh perspectives. I that's a big thing I get out of teaching for myself.

Xylo Aria (07:17.406)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (07:23.898)

Yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (07:28.494)

Mm, mm. Yeah, for sure. It is nice to see people on that part of the journey. yeah.

Brian Funk (07:39.552)

Now you talked about community. That's definitely a very important thing for everybody else. how did you get started building one? I think we all struggle with that. You know, we want I want community, but like, you know, where do I go? Especially 'cause now when we're in the computer it music has gotten very solitary. Whereas it used to always be you would have to play with other people, but now we're we can do it all on your own, which is great. But

Xylo Aria (07:52.787)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (08:00.443)

Mm.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (08:06.911)

It can make finding others and building community a little tricky. I wonder just how you got there, started, what inspired you?

Xylo Aria (08:10.854)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (08:15.578)

Yeah, yeah. So it was at the I was living in London at the time, like when I first started MPW and before kind of r really officially starting it, I I I wanted that community myself and I didn't feel like I had it. So like I went to loads of different networking events and things like that to meet people. but then I actually

started a meetup group for producers and just organized a couple of meetups and yeah, sometimes three people would show up and sometimes a few more people would show up and that was lovely actually kind of meeting people without really any intention for that time. And

Brian Funk (09:05.207)

Mm-hmm.

Xylo Aria (09:11.45)

And at at that time I was speaking to like in in those settings with a lot of other kind of female musicians and things and about their experiences and in production or getting into production, et cetera. And I then it confirmed the need for a platform like MPW. initially when I was first thinking about my own experiences, you know, you think

i is it just me that these scenarios happen to that I feel really strongly about this platform and whether it should exist or not? But then having that confirmation from other people saying, actually, I would love that that kind of increased the drive to to create it and then and then creating and starting MPW the first couple of

workshops that I did were super, super small and intimate, and in person, which was really lovely. And then I my visa was ending in the UK and I was very sad about that. I really wanted to stay. But knowing that that was coming up and I couldn't stay meant that I had to make everything online because I knew that I'd have to leave. And you know, I guess everything happens

For a reason, I I do believe, but like that made MPW COVID proof, you know, before COVID happened, because that was in twenty nineteen. So yeah, just in time. And so then everything shifted online where we started having, you know, monthly group kind of coaching sessions and and things like that. Just for a a place for people to show up every month and just kind of hang out with other similar people.

Brian Funk (10:46.901)

Hm. Right.

Brian Funk (10:51.204)

just in time. Hm.

Xylo Aria (11:10.29)

and then we yeah, started like our courses and things and there the the Discord is quite a big part of it and now like moving things to WhatsApp and things like that as well, so that there are multiple different ways for people to connect, whether it's in the class, after the class, like in the breakout rooms or in WhatsApp groups or Discord groups, etc. so that's

Yeah, that's how I went about it and I think it's working. you know, it it doesn't have the live element as much now. like we do some run some live workshops throughout the year in different places. but most of it is online, which does make it tricky, but it also gives me flexibility to be able to run MPW without being tied to a place and then also

Brian Funk (12:05.046)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (12:08.392)

flexibility for me to have a great team in different parts of the world. Like we have now five five of us and we're in four different continents. So it makes that something that we can do rather than being tied to a location.

Brian Funk (12:25.856)

Hm. Wow, that's great. So it it's grown and spread and are the other people you're working with are they like also members? Like with is that how they got into it?

Xylo Aria (12:37.49)

the most recent person who joined our team was a student of ours two or three years ago. So it's it's nice for her to be on the other side of it. But yeah, the the first person who joined my team, Carmel, she had been on the mailing list for a long time and I think she just really enjoyed the content and things. And she's been an absolute gem that I would be completely lost without and I'm so grateful for her.

Brian Funk (12:46.593)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (13:03.404)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (13:05.534)

and then yeah, one person that we that's on our team just applied for for a a job with us like just through social media, we we put that out. and then the the other person on the team just started doing a couple of bits and pieces of admin for us and then yeah, we thought she was a great fit and ended up joining full time. Yeah.

Brian Funk (13:30.506)

Hm. That's great when the people involved believe in the mission like that, that they're

Xylo Aria (13:36.11)

yeah. It's you know, for me it's it's vital for for the the business that I'm running. Like if there was someone that kind of didn't really care about the mission, it just wouldn't be the right fit.

Brian Funk (13:48.811)

Hmm. Yeah, just sort of clocking in. You know. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, but to be but it's nice to be part of something you're building that you're working on though too. I think I I know that I feel that way like as a teacher. It's nice to feel like you're in a when you're working towards something. I've

Xylo Aria (13:52.793)

Yeah, yeah. Then you know, get a corporate job. There's plenty of those. Yeah. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (14:05.158)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (14:14.206)

Mm.

Brian Funk (14:16.604)

said like jokingly, like I don't get paid enough not to care, you know. Like I I have to get that out of it as well. Like that's part of what I'm trying to do, right? Like so and same thing with some of the teaching with music production to just see some of the people like kind of stick around and, you know, show up in other places.

Xylo Aria (14:20.395)

Y okay. Mm. Mm.

Xylo Aria (14:28.37)

Mm. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (14:41.052)

Mm.

Brian Funk (14:42.828)

You know, those are the people that are fired up. Those are people that tend to go places doing this 'cause it I guess you kinda need that here in in the the music world. It's not really like other professions where you get your degree, you get your whatever, and now you can get the job, like in in music and even I say this to my students through Berkeley online, like I don't even have the degree you guys are going for. So I'm I'm I'm teaching this class, not because I'm

Xylo Aria (15:08.421)

Mm, that's a good point, yeah.

Brian Funk (15:12.63)

qualified really. Just it's the like just working at it and you know, there's no we never get like as artists like a permission slip or a or some like final like okay you made it, now you're an artist

Xylo Aria (15:17.543)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (15:23.014)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (15:27.706)

Yeah, yeah. That's such a good point, isn't it? And I think that that's probably a contributor to all the imposter syndrome that we experience in this industry, 'cause everyone's like, can I call myself an artist or a producer? Or, you know, d does someone else have to call me that or how does that work?

Brian Funk (15:38.54)

Mm.

Brian Funk (15:48.075)

Yeah, when do you become a musician? When do you become a music producer? Like when are you allowed to say that? You almost just have to just act like one or something. And that's like you said, that imposter syndrome will eventually kick in. Like that it's a nasty one.

Xylo Aria (15:53.31)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (16:00.412)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (16:04.604)

Mm, mm. Yeah, it is, it is. For sure.

Brian Funk (16:12.488)

One of the comforts though in in doing this podcast especially is finding out and not that I wish this upon other people, but pretty much everybody goes through that. Like people you would never expect, like, really? With that Grammy sitting on the shelf behind you? Like you feel that way?

Xylo Aria (16:30.504)

Crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. That that's it's a good thing to mention and I've definitely experienced that as well and and it and then it that's a good thing to pass on to students as well, that like, you know, if you're experiencing it right now, it's so okay because everyone does, including, like you said, Grammy Winning producers, engineers, etc.

Brian Funk (16:54.144)

Yeah. some of some people have said even like once I got that award or once I got that recognition or that I did that track with whoever, th that was when it really kicked in. 'Cause I had this success and it's like, well, maybe it's just a fluke. At least when before I had that I was still like kind of aspiring and now it's like, now you gotta be that.

Xylo Aria (17:10.781)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (17:15.513)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (17:19.268)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a that's a interesting observation.

Brian Funk (17:28.97)

That's part of why I like what you're doing, that you're coming out there and letting people know that it's all right to go through that stuff and that it's really part of it. I think it it helps fuel it, I guess, wouldn't you think? Like helps motivate you a little bit.

Xylo Aria (17:47.037)

Yeah, I I think it does. I guess for some people maybe it's gets to the point where it's crippling and that's no good. But yeah, I'd hope for most people it it acts as a motivator.

Brian Funk (18:05.705)

I've been crippled.

Xylo Aria (18:06.974)

yeah, I'm sure we all have. Including me.

Brian Funk (18:14.227)

Well, you have some evidence though coming out soon that you're able to get through it. You've got a an album, Dream coming out.

Xylo Aria (18:22.878)

Y yes, yeah. So it's something you know, we were talking about this earlier that when you're in this space you can be surrounded by music, but then the time and the energy and the focus to create it can can fall to the bottom of the priority list and this album has been a works for many years. So I'm so excited to finally

get it out and I have been working on some newer stuff and I'm really feeling the backlog now, you know, of I just I can't really get super creative right now because I feel like there's all this all this stuff that just needs to get out there and so I'm looking forward to it. Really, really love so many tracks. I mean all of them, I guess we all love our music that we want to share. So I'm

excited excited to get it get it out and into the world and trying to as well disconnect with what happens once it's out. You know, we we can obviously put together our marketing plan or whatever, but know that the end result of the responses from people is just out of our control then. Easier said than done.

Brian Funk (19:51.53)

Yes. Yeah, that's a great point because once you put it out, that's not in your hands really. Like you said, you can promote it, you can try to get people to hear it, which is also sometimes very difficult too. the biggest response I'm used to and many of the people I know is just crickets, just nothing. Just all right, I worked real hard, here it is and

Xylo Aria (19:52.252)

Yeah. Mm.

Xylo Aria (20:15.516)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (20:21.195)

The video of my dog chasing her tail got way more likes than all this hard work I put into this album.

Xylo Aria (20:30.494)

I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's something that I think I I wish there was a better way to handle it, you know? Like, 'cause it is it is that's the kind of hardest part of the whole thing, I think.

Brian Funk (20:39.563)

Mm.

Brian Funk (20:49.769)

I gotta imagine though, having the community you're building and that you've created over these years, there's a little bit at least of a built in audience of people that will probably check it out just because they're aware of what you're doing and enjoy the overall it's one of the important things of having a community is you have people you can actually share it with.

Xylo Aria (21:10.126)

Yeah. It's funny, like I feel like MPW isn't the space for me to share my music, you know? Like I I maybe this is a is not the right way to look at it, but I don't want it to be like a tooting my own horn sort of space, where I'm like, here's what I'm doing, check out my music. but it's I see it more of a celebration for

my students music. so I don't really shout about it in the MPW sphere, but I don't know, maybe maybe that's not the right way to look at it, but that's how I feel anyway.

Brian Funk (21:53.564)

I don't know the answer. I would imagine there's people that would enjoy hearing about it, but I can understand what you're saying too. You don't want it to come across as this self promoting kind of thing, which I think is always a thing artists deal with is that kind of line of w being the artist and then becoming like like sleazy salesperson kind of thing.

Xylo Aria (21:55.263)

Ha ha

Xylo Aria (22:05.51)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (22:20.43)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (22:20.895)

Where that feels uncomfortable.

Xylo Aria (22:24.208)

Mm mm mm. Yeah, it's a tricky one.

Brian Funk (22:29.535)

I hear ya. I always tell people to do it though. I think you have to toot your horn. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (22:34.342)

Yeah, perhaps I should maybe for this one this will be a special special one with the album.

Brian Funk (22:42.513)

It it's a huge accomplishment, you know. So but of course I I get what you're saying too, right? 'Cause I have similar feelings.

Xylo Aria (22:44.486)

Yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (22:51.418)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:54.911)

That's a that's the whole concept of I guess of like releasing music is also and I hear I heard this, it was Derek Sivers that said this. Was like letting go of it. And like not just like putting it out, but like it's not yours anymore. It's out of your head like the bird flying from the nest kind of thing. let it it it does its own thing that as you said

Xylo Aria (23:08.742)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (23:14.95)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (23:19.121)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (23:24.393)

We don't have a lot of control over.

Xylo Aria (23:26.522)

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And and I have heard that kind of you know, analogy before where you it's not yours anymore, you know, it's it's it it belongs to the world. and then you also, if you can see it that way, let go of the whatever attachment you might feel to people's responses, etcetera.

Brian Funk (23:39.275)

Hm.

Xylo Aria (23:56.607)

'cause it's it's it doesn't belong to you anymore. But yeah. Again, I think those things sometimes are easier said than done. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (24:06.046)

Definitely. The only way I know how to ease that a little bit is just to kinda keep making more. And I I just saw actually on your Instagram you had Keppy from How to Write Songs. who I've had on a few times now too. She's great. I I love what they do. but she was like, Yeah, just write a lot, write a lot And then nothing becomes precious. It's not

Xylo Aria (24:15.343)

Yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (24:20.816)

Yeah, yeah. yeah, Keppy's great. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (24:30.886)

Mm.

Brian Funk (24:31.76)

Something you can you know, you always know there's something new coming out, there's something tomorrow, something the next day.

Xylo Aria (24:37.754)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a that's a good point. And I have heard that from Keppy before and yeah, then it's you know, finding the the time for it for the writing very consistently. But yeah, it sounds like a good way to get around it.

Brian Funk (24:49.449)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, like we s went back to before making music that's to be the hardest thing to get to. Well, we have to wear so many hats, right? and I imagine that's probably something you talk a lot about in the community when you

Xylo Aria (24:57.816)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (25:12.062)

decide to be like a music producer, you're writing the songs you're producing, you're playing them probably half the time. You're recording them, engineering, mixing, maybe even all all the steps, mastering and all that. it gets hard to stay in one's own. Sometimes it'd be nice if you just had to do this or just had to do that.

Xylo Aria (25:21.106)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (25:33.831)

Yeah. For sure, for sure, you know, and and it's something that you know, there's the like what advice do you give to someone on the ideal thing that should be do that they should be doing or what's the best thing for them? Because I think, like you said, there is a lot to do and it's not for everyone and I think that's the thing that some people

either don't grasp fully or aren't willing to admit to themselves that you know that the artist path is not for everyone and unless you are willing to you know do the social media stuff like be super active and all of that outside of the creativity that is required then

you know, perhaps doing it more for the joy of it or for other reasons rather than this this goal of being a commercially successful artist is a better goal for you, but it's harder hard to admit that sometimes, you know, that I'm I'm not willing to do all the business stuff that's that has to be done to commercialise this thing. and it's okay to just do it 'cause

Brian Funk (26:55.902)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (27:00.784)

It's fun and 'cause I enjoy it and 'cause it's a yeah, it's a great thing to do. Mm.

Brian Funk (27:07.858)

Mm.

I've had that conversation with my band that are playing and my band is two other guys also with day jobs. So they're they don't need to rely on music to fund them and to be their career. And we were kinda one day being like, you know, this is actually kinda nice that it doesn't matter if we record these songs we've been working on, it doesn't matter if we release them. We're doing it only because we want to.

Xylo Aria (27:18.344)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (27:39.773)

and we'll if we press we pressed some records, we did like a hundred vinyls and we were like, we know at least three people want them. Meaning us. So we do that and even now that like there's these on demand vinyl places now, which is so cool. We we made three prints of our EP and that that was it. And then and like if people want they can order but

Xylo Aria (27:40.059)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (27:49.256)

Yeah, great.

Xylo Aria (28:04.542)

Great. That's perfect, actually. Yeah.

Brian Funk (28:09.79)

No one does. But we d we're not none of us want us have to be the one to like push it and okay, we gotta do our marketing plan or or we gotta book things and that has been points of stress when I was younger in bands, when we back when I thought that's what I wanted out of my life. Like you'd be like, How come I'm the only one calling and emailing and you'd have these like bickering things with your friends that you're playing music with and

Xylo Aria (28:16.915)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (28:30.046)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (28:36.378)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (28:39.462)

Some of those bands r didn't survive because of that. And it I think now the goal is just to keep doing it. That that's really it. And that's helped a lot with songwriting and ideas and whether or not I'm okay with how that bass part or drum part goes, whereas in the past it'd be a little more like, Come on, you gotta play.

Xylo Aria (28:49.032)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (28:55.518)

Hm.

Xylo Aria (29:00.477)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Just that's great. Like if you can get to the point of creating without the pressure of it, you know, that's what creativity is actually about. And I I was listening to a podcast with Rick Rubin who he was talking about when you create without any expectation for that project or whatever, that's art. But when you're creating with

the aim of it being a commercial success, then that's commerce and it's not really art anymore 'cause you're not allowing yourself to fully express whatever you want to express, which I thought was very interesting. So it's yeah, lovely if you can create from that space of no pressure.

Brian Funk (29:56.766)

Yeah, that's an interesting point. 'cause I think about myself whenever I'm trying to be clever or you know, make something that I think some people will like or find impressive or, you know, whatever, intelligent. I I never really finish those projects or I get stuck and then I give up and frustrated or or just even things that I liked suddenly

Xylo Aria (30:05.606)

Hmm.

Xylo Aria (30:11.592)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (30:19.59)

Mm.

Brian Funk (30:26.607)

I don't like it 'cause it's not doing anything, you know, musically intelligent, you know. But but so much of the stuff I love is so simple anyway. I I have so much more fun when I can let go of that stuff.

Xylo Aria (30:34.278)

Mm, mm.

Xylo Aria (30:38.547)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (30:44.316)

Yeah, for sure. I I think we all do, but it's just sometimes harder to let go. yeah.

Brian Funk (30:51.721)

It definitely is. So I know you're in an Ableton Live user and person, you know your s your way around. So I kinda wanted to ask you a little bit just about your your album and like the production and anything like processes or tools that you leaned on or found interesting in the making of the new one?

Xylo Aria (31:09.693)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (31:19.046)

Yeah. Mm trying to think like if there's something I it I feel like the songs have been created over such a space of time that I can see the progression when I open up the older songs, you know, how I've used Ableton. So that's kind of interesting. But yeah, generally I think I like creating atmosphere.

Brian Funk (31:32.435)

Right.

Xylo Aria (31:47.237)

with my voice in a lot of the songs. You know, it will obviously there'll be the the vocal melody and that's fine, but it will kind of feature as a pad or a synth or something like that where I've used it in in different ways. and yeah, I like using some weird sounds like there's a sound pack of just life stuff of

construction sites or I don't know traffic noise or something like that. But I I think it's fun to have some sounds that you can't really place what they are and to use them in in different ways in the creative process and yeah and yeah lots of lots of kind of

Brian Funk (32:18.584)

cool. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (32:43.774)

parallel processing on vocals, like, you know, variety of different delays, reverbs, compressors and yeah, lots of vocal tracks as well as parallel parallel processing as well. So yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:06.931)

So like when you're making like kind of like pads out of your voice, is it you're just stacking tracks, layering like the different notes of maybe a chord or something?

Xylo Aria (33:18.04)

Yeah, o often I'll just kind of like vibe with it and then I'll come up with some sort of a like a humming melody in the back and then I may use it as it is or I may just use chunks of it to turn that into kind of longer notes or something like that and and then often I'll just harmonise those a few times recording something on top of it.

to create like a a richness. 'cause I'm not a I'm not really an instrumentalist, like I can play a little bit of guitar and keys, but the voice for me is where I feel more comfortable expressing myself. So it's easier for me to create some chords with my voice.

Brian Funk (34:00.457)

Mm.

Brian Funk (34:09.405)

That's cool. I would love to be there with my voice. I use my voice a lot, but you know, I th I'm definitely feel I can just play the note on the guitar way better than I can sing the note. but I d I do enjoy like a lot of that.

Xylo Aria (34:10.684)

Yeah.

Well, I'm sure you can. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (34:27.214)

All right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (34:33.417)

Playing around and processing voices and just seeing where I can take them. I d I just think the the human voice has just got so much to it. And each person's voice is so unique. I mean, you can recognize a person's voice in a sentence out of nowhere. so to be able to

Xylo Aria (34:37.798)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (34:50.31)

Mm, mm.

Brian Funk (34:56.571)

integrate that into the music a lot, I I think brings a lot of life and humanity, which it's it sounds like you're into too, with especially with like some of the sounds you were mentioning, like the construction or abstract noises. I think that's really important now especially where to have real stuff going on. There's so much, you know, other ways to do music now that isn't that way.

Xylo Aria (35:06.322)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (35:14.066)

Hm.

Xylo Aria (35:17.768)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (35:23.838)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (35:26.605)

I really appreciate those types of things in music it more than ever, hearing like that's like really your voice being chopped up and played around with and rather than either whether it's AI of course or just like even just all the access we have to loops and samples. It's really nice to hear people taking their own voice and integrating it.

Xylo Aria (35:30.621)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (35:37.67)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (35:45.501)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (35:49.766)

Mm.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And it can spark different creativity as well. Like there was one challenge that I gave myself. Like I just spoke a sentence I I don't remember what it was, but that wasn't important. But I decided the only samples or the only tools that I'm gonna use to create this song is gonna be from this sentence. And that was

So fun. Like I created the kick and the snare. Then I probably I think I ended up layering the kick 'cause it just didn't have enough low end and stuff. But just using that to create all the sounds, I had a great time and and it just really brought out creativity that I wouldn't have kind of tapped into otherwise.

Brian Funk (36:20.033)

well.

Brian Funk (36:33.577)

Mm.

Brian Funk (36:41.725)

So you're like pitching them, reversing them, time stretching, all that kind of stuff to get new stuff out of it?

Xylo Aria (36:46.099)

Yeah. Yeah. All that stuff adding, you know, random effects and yeah, making them longer, shorter and yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (36:51.187)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (36:56.709)

I love that kind of stuff. in the Berkeley class I do, which is the sampling, Ableton Live Sampling class, one of the assignments for the week is to just go about your day and record sounds and make something with that. And it can be abstract or you can actually try to like make instruments and things and melodies. And every single person that does it is different and

Xylo Aria (36:57.982)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (37:05.16)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (37:10.334)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (37:25.852)

Mm.

Brian Funk (37:26.597)

Even if they only got some a lot of times people don't get past breakfast 'cause they find all these sounds like the coffee machine, the egg, the pan, like the door to the bathroom. Like you you just realize there's so much material everywhere. But even when they only get that far, their shower sounds different than the other person's shower and their their kitchen has a different reverb than the other person's. And it's always unique and it it's always

Xylo Aria (37:31.878)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (37:40.274)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (37:46.791)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (37:51.686)

Mm.

Mm.

Brian Funk (37:55.965)

Very interesting to hear 'cause you get all those different natural reverbs in the recordings and recording qualities and I'm always blown away with what people do with that. What is the what track is that gonna be on the album? So we can Okay.

Xylo Aria (38:04.968)

Mm, mm mm.

Xylo Aria (38:11.24)

Really cool. That's actually not on the album at all. So that was yeah, it's that's one of those like mid album random projects that I don't think fits in with the album. But once the album is out, hopefully I can, you know, go back to those other ones and look at finalizing them and getting them out. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (38:21.734)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (38:27.442)

That you can

Right.

Brian Funk (38:35.27)

That is a great part about releasing the album 'cause it clears the the path for all that other stuff. Hmm. that's fun. So that's a lot to look forward to then from you. A lot of cool stuff.

Xylo Aria (38:38.078)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure, yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (38:51.152)

Yeah, yeah. It'll be fun, yeah.

Brian Funk (38:55.868)

Yeah. do you play any of that live? Do you turn that into anything?

Xylo Aria (39:01.392)

I used to, yeah. So I used to play live around Melbourne and then in London when I was there as well. But yeah, I just I I feel like I enjoy that less these days. I I don't know why. I guess the process of booking gigs and and and things and you know, promoting them, etcetera, like I just

I feel like I don't get enough joy from the performance to make all the other part worth it, you know? So yeah, I think I enjoy the creation more. Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:35.784)

Yeah. I gotcha.

Brian Funk (39:45.937)

Mm-hmm. I think I'm the same way. I don't the thousands of shows. I just don't have the I think I just used my entire life supply of, hey, come see me play requests, you know. I have none in me anymore. Like I I we'll play out once in a while with the band and sometimes little like one off things.

Xylo Aria (39:49.724)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (40:05.392)

Yeah Yeah.

Xylo Aria (40:15.079)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (40:16.082)

But it has to really fall in my lap and almost not depend on at all on who I bring. 'Cause I just like can't ask people anymore. I don't know. Maybe it was when when you're younger and your friends are all going out anyway, you just say, Well, just come to this place instead 'cause we'll be playing. It's a little bit easier, but

Xylo Aria (40:18.641)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (40:23.262)

Mm. Yeah, for sure, yeah.

Mm.

Xylo Aria (40:36.431)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (40:39.398)

I maybe I also just know how much it takes out of me to get myself out of the house to go anywhere anymore. I don't wanna put that on anyone.

Xylo Aria (40:44.638)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure, for sure. I think that yeah, the the stage of life everyone around us is at definitely I think impacts that.

Brian Funk (40:59.526)

Yeah. I I almost can't even believe when anybody wants me to actually physically be somewhere. Like you outta your mind. Yeah. Well, I guess, you know, if you ever get the bug again you can, but there's like you said about just all the other stuff, there's really no there's no need, you know, you gotta find your own way to enjoy what you're doing.

Xylo Aria (41:05.758)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (41:26.47)

Hm.

Brian Funk (41:26.588)

Then to put like something extra like that on will only take it away anyway.

Xylo Aria (41:29.096)

Yeah.

Yeah. I guess that's again the thing of like, you know, what's the aim for you from this? Like if you are looking to chase that artist route and stuff, obviously playing live is a huge part of that to connect with an audience and and that kind of thing. But for me that's not the thing anymore. That's not what I'm chasing. So if I if I'm not loving it then I'm like I don't have to do it.

Brian Funk (41:43.228)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (42:01.114)

Sometimes we I don't know, like polluted, I guess, where you might start off like, you just enjoy playing your guitar, say, and just letting it go off into the ether, and then you decide it has to become a a project and then you gotta release it and finish it and tour it or whatever and almost like the whole time you're doing it

Xylo Aria (42:11.846)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (42:23.698)

Mm.

Brian Funk (42:26.99)

is 'cause you wanna one day be able to get back to just sitting around and just playing your guitar for nobody. Like just to get full circle. It's like why even start that? 'Cause I mean, I I'm definitely been guilty of it too. even like promoting it. They're like you have to finish your music, you have to complete projects, music producers produce music. but you don't, you know, you really don't. Like

Xylo Aria (42:37.438)

Journey, yeah.

Xylo Aria (42:50.47)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (42:55.014)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (42:57.116)

You might and I I guess I realize too, sometimes I just like tinkering with the sounds and even I've talked to a couple of people that were, you know, out there on the internet and mostly like teaching and doing tutorials and a few of them said it at like at the same time to me, almost like it was something I need to hear, that they were like, you know

Xylo Aria (43:02.214)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (43:20.179)

Mm.

Brian Funk (43:22.834)

For me, like r I was like, When are you gonna release the music? You the track in your s your video is awesome. they're like, you know, that's releasing my music for me. It's it's in there. I put it in there and and that helped me a lot with unfinished stuff, like that kind of guilt that I have like, you know, the gigs and gigs of unfinished music on my computer.

Xylo Aria (43:33.362)

Mm. Yeah. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (43:41.126)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (43:48.678)

Mm.

Brian Funk (43:49.968)

I started putting those little ideas like behind these little podcast clips, you know, that so it's like the sixty second little short or something. Then just it's that like noodling stuff. I was like, it has a cool, mysterious vibe, it'll fit whatever this person is saying and And then I I feel much more at peace with those things that never got finished. 'Cause you can't finish it all really if you're if you

Xylo Aria (43:55.669)

cool. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (44:00.741)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (44:07.767)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that.

Xylo Aria (44:13.98)

Mm, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (44:18.779)

going at it like crazy. And I definitely admire people that some people claim that they finish everything they start. I don't I've I've heard them say it.

Xylo Aria (44:26.182)

Really? I don't know if I've met them.

Okay. Yeah. Good on him.

Brian Funk (44:36.527)

And and like, you know, finishing is definitely a skill, but sometimes finished doesn't mean released and, you know, produced into a four minute song with whatever.

Xylo Aria (44:39.582)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (44:47.31)

Mm, yeah.

Xylo Aria (44:52.19)

True, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's a good good thing to come to terms with and it sounds like you have in in your own way of using it in different ways and and you don't even have to do that, I guess. Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (45:05.989)

Yeah. And that's today, you know. Tomorrow and be like, man That's that's part of I guess what keeps me into it too is you go through these phases. I do. I definitely go through different phases of what kind of productivity I feel like I need to be doing and

Xylo Aria (45:28.262)

Mm mm mm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:30.993)

I guess I don't need to be doing any of it. So

Xylo Aria (45:34.79)

No, yeah, yeah, that's it. That's it. I guess when it's when it's tied to your income then you n then you need to do it. But yeah.

Brian Funk (45:38.236)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:44.636)

Yeah, but to go back to the guitar playing, some people have told me like I I miss that, you know, like every time I pick up the guitar or sit at the piano I have to make a a song. I gotta be rehearsing for the gig or th that's a lot. You know, sometimes it's nice to just let music happen in the moment and

Xylo Aria (45:51.453)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (45:56.582)

Mm.

Mm.

Xylo Aria (46:05.276)

Yeah. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (46:11.547)

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Brian Funk (46:12.591)

And go like so much of our gear ha everything has a record button. Everything can be looped or saved. Sometimes it's nice to just not have that option or be free of it anyway.

Xylo Aria (46:15.902)

Mm, yeah.

Xylo Aria (46:28.655)

Mm, yeah, for sure. Just just play for no no other purpose. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (46:35.143)

Mm.

Brian Funk (46:39.015)

Do you know when the album comes out? Do you have a release date yet?

Xylo Aria (46:43.088)

I don't actually I'm waiting for the last master to come in. That's true, actually. Like you need the release date. But yeah, and I'm just waiting for the last last master to come in and then I wanna give myself like a couple of months from then just to get everything together and just know that I've tried on the, you know, marketing front, making some bits for social media, etc. and

Brian Funk (46:44.943)

Do have a proper release date? What's going on?

Brian Funk (46:55.238)

Okay.

Xylo Aria (47:10.65)

Yeah, so I'm I'm thinking I don't know exactly when this is gonna come out, but probably somewhere end of July or start of August kind of time. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:22.459)

Nice. Yeah, that's a couple of months from now. Yeah, that's an exciting time, I guess, waiting for those final versions to come back and to hear it for the first time. Hmm.

Xylo Aria (47:31.844)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Playing it in the car and it sounds great. And it's yeah, great feeling.

Brian Funk (47:40.881)

Yeah. It is. It's you only get that once too.

Xylo Aria (47:45.119)

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:47.976)

And as the producer and you know, y we don't really get that first time with our songs, the first experience 'cause we've been working on them and building up and we we know the twists and turns and surprises coming.

Xylo Aria (47:56.742)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (48:00.999)

Yeah.

Mm, mm mm. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But yeah, I think I would prefer that than being on the artist side where y you don't know what's you know, what someone's maybe created and whether it's w you know, exactly what you were hearing for the song. So mm.

Brian Funk (48:23.077)

Yeah. Yeah, that I can be really shocking, I guess. That's it it's great that you're pushing this out there for people too and just showing others that you can do it and have that control 'cause it can be like a helpless feeling, you know, like you you feel like and then you have to rely on others and it's

Xylo Aria (48:31.036)

Hm.

Xylo Aria (48:45.608)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (48:51.887)

You know, when you can have the responsibility of it, it's satisfying. It's it's a great power.

Xylo Aria (48:54.759)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (48:58.152)

For sure. Mm, mm mm. Yeah. Yeah, I was listening to a couple of the songs the other day and I was like, you know what, it's a great feeling knowing that I've crafted every single piece of sound on these tracks, you know. So it's yeah, it's good.

Brian Funk (49:17.873)

That is cool. Did you play everything? Do all the that's it's all you, huh? That's great.

Xylo Aria (49:22.67)

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's everything. There's no there's actually the one song has a rapper on it, which was really fun to to work on. but that's the only yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm. Yeah. Mm.

Brian Funk (49:32.207)

But was your decision to to bring that in. Like yeah. yeah, that's that's great. That's like I always loved that too when when I'm with artists that I that I listened to. They'd be like, that's so cool. They you know, they did all that. That it's so empowering. I think one of the first times I ever felt that was when I first heard like Paul McCartney's first album that he did.

Xylo Aria (49:48.878)

Mm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mm, it is.

Xylo Aria (50:02.846)

Mm.

Brian Funk (50:02.87)

on his own and he was on a farm after the Beatles broke up. And I was just like, This is crazy. Like he did everything on this record and it's I mean it's so good and but to get to like hear him even I guess even the Beatles were like that too and that they took that under their control writing their own songs. But that was just the next level and

Xylo Aria (50:06.845)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (50:12.007)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (50:18.696)

Mm-hmm.

Xylo Aria (50:27.016)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (50:30.494)

Mm.

Brian Funk (50:30.67)

I was, you know, getting into recording myself at that time and listening to that. I like, man, something to aspire to.

Xylo Aria (50:37.296)

Yeah. Yeah. The ultimate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:41.444)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:45.722)

Well, we should probably tell people where to go to find out more. I I have your website here. We got music production for women dot com and then there's Instagram and YouTube. I'll put everything in the in the notes. Is there some place in particular you like to tell people to go look or anything to check out?

Xylo Aria (51:09.166)

Well, if you yeah, if you are looking for music production for women, I guess the website has everything you need. if you want to connect with me, you can always find me on Instagram, under Xylo Aria. So, yeah, that's a good place to find myself and my music.

Brian Funk (51:33.354)

And I want to turn it seems like you like to do this, so I'm gonna do it to you. do you have a career tip? Some advice?

Xylo Aria (51:39.26)

Okay.

Xylo Aria (51:43.119)

Okay. I do do that. Yeah. Yeah. I I think you know, we spoke about this a little bit before, but just keep going, you know, and it's the hardest thing because I feel like it's it's a exponential curve, you know, with this stuff in in this industry where you don't see anything for a long time. And that can be the point where people can give up.

that's assuming you you want to make it a career, you know. If you don't want to, that's perfectly fine as well and and you don't have to do that. But if you do want to make a a career, I think in my mind, yeah, there's talent is part of it, but I think the biggest determination of whether someone turns this into a career is if they've stuck with it long enough. So just just keep at it.

Brian Funk (52:44.346)

I think I saw it in the like high school gym somewhere, but it said, hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. And and I love that. and I've seen it like growing up, as for myself, even when I started playing guitar I was fourteen, I didn't know anything about music at all. I wasn't in band and anything and it it felt like everyone was so far ahead of me.

Xylo Aria (52:49.971)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (52:54.126)

Yeah. It's great, yeah.

Xylo Aria (53:05.544)

Hmm. Hmm.

Xylo Aria (53:12.05)

Hm.

Brian Funk (53:12.75)

you know, I just seemed almost impossible, but a lot of those people that I looked up to, that seemed like, you know, they're the best whatever in the high school musician, a lot of them don't do it anymore. They haven't they haven't taken that instrument out in a long time and yeah, I think that's a great piece of advice that you gotta just keep going.

Xylo Aria (53:28.326)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (53:37.096)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (53:38.329)

I I it's there is that like exponential thing, but sometimes there's also these like, I like I figured out how to like do this and you make like these jumps and then sometimes it just feels like you you never go up again. You just plateau forever and then once in a while there's just a new peak or or even you just look back. It's it's kinda like aging. Like you don't see yourself get older until you look at a picture or you know, in this case like listen to like an old track or something.

Xylo Aria (53:47.976)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (53:51.63)

Yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (53:56.699)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (54:07.323)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (54:07.918)

And the and you realize your growth that way, but it's happening.

Xylo Aria (54:11.012)

Yeah, no for sure, for sure. Yeah, I don't know if kind of exponential was the best graphical representation, but it was more the start of it, you know, where you don't you don't really see anything happen for a while. But yeah.

Brian Funk (54:17.338)

No, no, I think

Brian Funk (54:21.19)

Yeah.

I think it is a good explanation 'cause y you just like you're grinding away like sometimes here we go. If you're lucky, I mean that's there's no guarantee you even get to that, but but there is there's stuff happens, you know, over time. We get better.

Xylo Aria (54:28.572)

Hm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (54:41.786)

Mm, mm. Yeah. We do, we do. Even though we can't we can't see it in the moment.

Brian Funk (54:50.18)

Yeah. That's great advice. probably a great place to wrap up. thank you for taking the time to talk. It's great to finally talk to you too. it's got that like kind of funny, surreal thing where I've seen you talk and now we're talking and interacting. So it's been a a lot of fun for me.

Xylo Aria (54:55.186)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (55:04.267)

I yeah. Yeah, yeah. For sure, yeah, and it's been an absolute pleasure, Brian. Thanks so much for for chatting with me and it's it's been lovely.

Brian Funk (55:16.056)

And people if you're listening to this podcast, that might mean you like to listen to other ones. So MPW the podcast. Check it out. A lot of great guests, people I've recognized, people I've had, and people I wanna learn more about. So check it out everybody.

Xylo Aria (55:32.156)

Mm, yeah, yeah. Thank you.

Brian Funk (55:36.23)

Thank you.

]]>Xylo Aria - Music Production for Women - Music Production Podcast #428OVERSEA BEYOND Presets - Free Ableton Live Pack #245Ableton PackAbleton Pack FreeBrian FunkMon, 29 Jun 2026 15:17:26 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/oversea-ableton-live-pack52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a4288068a0bc51f482d93b4

OVERSEA put together a download Ableton Live effects and sounds he used on his new album, BEYOND!

Ableton Live Presets Included:

  • Angelic Voices Instrument

  • Brainwave FX

  • Isochronic Machine

Requires Ableton Live Standard 12.4 or Above.

Free Download: OVERSEA BEYOND Ableton Live Pack

Listen to OVERSEA on the Music Production Podcast: Apple, Spotify, YouTube

]]>OVERSEA BEYOND Presets - Free Ableton Live Pack #245Lomotor Trees and Stones - Free Ableton Live Pack #244Ableton PackAbleton Pack FreeBrian FunkMon, 29 Jun 2026 14:56:59 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/lomotor-trees-and-stones52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a42858db6b48d129204a9db

Lomotor is a musician and producer who makes nature-inspired electronic music on a small farm in Massachusetts. His new album ABCAPSILAHAD combines electronic and acoustic instruments with field recordings and the sounds of leaves, trees, and birds. 

This Free Ableton Live Pack contains instruments made with trees and stones! (Get the Full Pack of 10 Instruments when you join the Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc )

Lomotor Trees and Stones Free Ableton Live Pack

Lomotor's Creative Tips to Live By - https://lomotor.net/lomotor-s-creative-tips-to-live-by
Listen to ABCAPSILAHAD by Lomotor - https://lomotor.net/home

Listen Lomotor’s Music Production Podcast episode on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

]]>Lomotor Trees and Stones - Free Ableton Live Pack #244Creating Music That Breathes with OVERSEA - Music Production Podcast #427podcastBrian FunkMon, 29 Jun 2026 14:41:39 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/oversea52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a42657f08f1306a5a65fafbSebastien Heintz makes electro-acoustic music under the name OVERSEA. His new album BEYOND is a modern ceremonial album made for transcendental experiences.

Sebastien and I spoke about his work as OVERSEA and how has been using music for meditation and healing. Sebastien explained how he uses Ableton Live as a live performance instrument. We also discussed finding the creative flow in activities such as surfing, meditation, and music-making.

Sebastien put together a download Ableton Live effects and sounds he used on the new album!

Free Download: OVERSEA BEYOND Ableton Live Pack

Get the OVERSEA BEYOND Free Ableton Live Instrument Pack here: https://brianfunk.gumroad.com/l/kvvvijh

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.772)

What's up, Sebastian? Welcome aboard. Great to have you.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (00:04.301)

Thank you so much, Brian. So happy to meet you and and be here tonight with you. Today, today is today for you, it's tonight for me, but

Brian Funk (00:10.626)

Very happy to have you. Yeah, we have a little time difference. You're in Portugal. I'm on Long Island, New York. So yeah, we we've got an ocean between us, but so much in common, so much to talk about. So it's great to get to it. congratulations on the new record, beyond.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (00:31.433)

Thank you. Thank you. It's just been out a few weeks and it's already so I've been so blessed and touched by the way it's it's been welcome. So thank you so much.

Brian Funk (00:42.766)

Hm. Yeah. I I've been listening, you know, over the last few weeks just to familiarize myself. But today in particular, I was kind of telling you, I was, you know, it was Monday morning, rushing to get to work and the hectic, you know, speed of life. And I got in the car and I put your record on and it was just a great exhale. It was and I I had such a nice ride. It was

just refreshing and put me in a great place to start the day. It was pretty much about the length of the drive, a little bit longer, so I didn't get the whole thing in, but it was yeah, just really nice moods, some nice soundscapes and also, you know, to do music like this that's very ambient, I guess you would say, like in nature and

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:13.224)

Looking in relation to 13.

Brian Funk (01:36.3)

There's a lot of melody, there's a lot of nice texture in there. So you've there's a lot going on. I I think, you know, more than a lot of ambient music often has chord changes and things like that. So, I found it pretty interesting on that level too, is it's it's really cool.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:54.973)

Thank you so much and and I'm I'm I feel blessed because I feel like the mission is accomplished. If you have if you had like a a moment to just zone out and and kind of rest while you were driving to work, it's kind of it's a good good way to to feel it. So yeah. So happy about that.

Brian Funk (02:08.43)

Mm.

Brian Funk (02:15.564)

Yeah, we could use more of that kind of stuff in the world, probably for a lot of us, right?

OVERSEA (sebastien) (02:19.856)

For sure, and that's also why I wanted to create this this type of album and and you were mentioning ambient and and already is so much to uncover, you know, but I don't come from ambient music at all and a at the start of my music journey, career, whatever. And but but I wanted to create a a longer piece, like a longer album with this type of space, you know, and

and being able to to kind counterbalance our culture and social media is and s the fast in in which we live in at the moment. So it's it's it feels very good that you you know you're mentioning the car drive this morning after you're rushing out to get to to work. It's it's it feels good.

Brian Funk (03:09.25)

Yeah, and y you know, as I'm talking to you now, this is actually the first time I've seen your image in full screen of whereas before it had the split screen as we were setting up. But I'm seeing your your layout and in your I guess you're in your studio. and it is there's like a balance happening right now in the shot. On the left side of you you've got all your electronics and synthesizers, and on the right side we've got a bunch of guitars and a couple of other things I think

OVERSEA (sebastien) (03:24.425)

Yeah. That's true. I just kind of tried to put that Yeah. That's that's right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:38.712)

hiding in there. And I think that's a nice blend of what we're hearing, it sounds like, on the record.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (03:45.496)

Yeah. Yeah. So funnily enough, I so I come from guitar. I was I started playing music when I was ten and I was fascinated by guitar and I grew up playing guitar, you know, so it was a very different world than what I'm w very different music than what I'm doing today. And there was I I grew up in Switzerland in the French speaking part of Switzerland and I was a fan of a a guy, a French guitar player

called just the letter And he's a kind of a guitar hero in France. And and it was really my mentor as a kid. You know, I was really passionated by guitar. And it's and and when I started playing guitar, quickly started playing piano as well. And then I got my first node stage which had a few synth sound but I was not into ambient. And it's it's more recently that I got into synthesizer. I was in London

And I fell in love with the the Core GMS 20 that's over there. And yeah, I I like Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're so good. And I was in the studio in in Telliot Studios in London, and they had the the old one. And it that kind of started my love for synthesizer, which then brought me into a bit more of an experimental approach to music in general, and it it just also allowed me to

Brian Funk (04:48.651)

Hm. It's got the same one. The the kind of newer mini one that they made. Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (05:15.244)

not give a rest not you know, not not just get away from guitar but also open my musical knowledge and mind and experiments as well, with with synths and and that's that's kind of how I ended up doing Beyond or you know, all the work I'm doing now was just that particular moment in time where I fell in love with the the the the Korg S twenty and just it was just a a snowball effect from

from that very moment. And and funny enough, you're mentioning guitar is when I was almost finished with the new album and I didn't put much guitar in it. And I was actually about to finish the mixes and so something didn't feel quite like me. And I I was reflecting on it and and I thought I think it's missing guitars. And that's how I got back into it. It was the very last week

before I was sending it to Master and and I added all the guitars that are are now in the in the album and it just felt finished when I added the guitars it felt like I'm a whole you know as as this album could be and as I wanted to present it. So thank you because yes the guitars were not supposed to be there because overseas as a artistic project was always about my synth experimental side and

And less about my guitarist side, but I'm happy to merge the two together now, you know. So I'm glad you're mentioning it, you know.

Brian Funk (06:53.793)

Mm.

It's interesting how I f I've found this a lot in my own path and in a lot of artists I've followed and spoken with how these things kind of come together eventually. A lot of times we go off on these paths and we take I w I was the same way, guitar player, you know, rock bands and not much in the way of keys or synthesizers really at all in any of the music that we played and

Then it sort of crept in a little bit and little I think that what really excited me was hearing kind of chip tune sounds in synthesizer, like putting just a square wave and be It sounds like Nintendo And I thought that was really cool and it had a lot of nostalgia from my childhood. And that started getting me kind of interested in it. And it was plugins of course at first and I had no idea why anyone would need to buy a physical synthesizer because

OVERSEA (sebastien) (07:40.981)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (07:54.92)

of how much you could do with plugins until I got my hands on a physical synthesizer and I was like, I I get it. Turning the knobs, controlling interacting with it like a like a like an instrument, I guess, like a machine that you can play with. but then a lot of my music started to go on in that direction and it it'd been a little while since I'd picked up the guitar, which has really always been the way I interact with music the most and the

OVERSEA (sebastien) (07:57.839)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (08:24.873)

I understand music the most through the guitar. and I'm kind of at that point too where now the blending and incorporating and almost doing synthesizer like things to my guitar and and guitar like things to my synthesizers running. We were talking about I've got the Chroma console here running it through guitar pedals. it's been a lot of fun. So it's nice to hear how there's like a sort of

OVERSEA (sebastien) (08:35.06)

Instead of value by these houses.

Brian Funk (08:54.123)

You know, three sixty kind of thing happening for you.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (08:57.611)

Yeah, and I think it's a you know, it's kind of a conversation between our different sides and our different kind of love for sounds. I don't know if it feels like this for you, but you know, like you were saying, y the guitar inspired you to play synth differently and synth in inspired you to play guitar differently and and I feel the same way. and i it just opened up so much in my music, getting into synth and and also just

wanting to have my guitar sound different. You know, I I I w I was sh I don't know, I've been playing for fifteen years, you know, playing guitar for fifteen years and although I was always passionated by different sounds and pedals, I was like very early on I had pedals and I was messing around with with the pedals. But just to kind of the synth world is is another kind of metaverse out there, you know?

Brian Funk (09:47.213)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (09:57.381)

And when you get into it, it kind of

start this conversation with the rest of your I mean it did for me in in my case. It started a conversation for me in the guitar world as well. It just like wanted to treat it differently. You were saying that and I think it's it's it's one of those moments where you feel like you're evolving as a musician also and it's it's one of those beautiful way to kind of counter any plateau effect that we can have at some point because you know you know how it is when we've been playing

playing for so long, sometimes it it it you can kind of feel in a rut and just finding ways to rediscover your instrument by using other instruments to inform this conversation is I mean it was a big part of of my journey and and and my musical journey because I don't really like the word career but in in everything I do today has been inspired by how I got away from guitar to come back to it with a different

an angle you know so it's it's funny you know.

Brian Funk (11:05.172)

Yeah, it it does. I find that a lot with all the different ways I guess I interact with making music now, which I'm guessing you probably have, you know, coming from guitar, you I imagine you played and probably groups and bands and learned making music that way and then you get into sequencing and you get into these other methods of where it's more recorded based.

And you're writing that way, it's so nice, I guess, when you get down those roads a little bit to realize like, okay, today I could and this is also the source of a lot of my struggle and procrastination in that I don't know which one I want to pick to start with today, but I could start with the guitar, old style, make a song that way, or or maybe on a MIDI controller or maybe a sequencer. And there's always a fresh way to approach it.

when you have some of these different things going on. But which can also, like I said, be the problem too. You have too many options, too many choices.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (12:08.024)

Yeah, for sure. We can get lost in the kind of the geek world and and just having too many options. Most recently I was I had to my computer died, so I had to redo my whole Ableton and my whole and I had to go through all my plugins to f and I I think I I probably didn't reinstall all of them. And it's just the statement of sometimes we get so many of those sounds and plugins we don't even use because we're so used to what we use all the time and we

Brian Funk (12:19.464)

no.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (12:37.549)

we got we get distracted. So a lot of a a lot of beyond of this album and and my most recent work is was about just trying to get away from the the the plug in crazy mind, you know, like getting more plugins and just trying to be a bit more creative with what I have. Even with my synth, you know, I I I do have some dream synth in mind, but

for now this is my collection and and I try to be as creative and I think this is this is the way to kind of also to me was about to to to help me finish stuff. You know, it's it's about what what because we we asked the question about what we are missing or what we want to add to our collection arsenal in a way. But in the end it's it's how can we use what we have to be creative and to sound different.

than what we did two years ago or how to evolve from that. And this this road was was very inspiring to me and it and it still is because yeah some pedals on my board I've you know I have the I think it's the DL4 the line six DL4 delay that I had for I don't know 15 years but I'm still trying to find ways to to

to be inspired by it and and be excited when I do something with it. It's not always the case, but I think it's it's it's it's good to have this kind of almost gratitude like reverence towards what we have and and almost stretching it like yeah a a gratitude thing and and being creative with this to me was was a a big a big thing a few years ago. Hmm.

Brian Funk (14:04.438)

Mm.

Brian Funk (14:30.41)

I like that thought process, the gratitude of it. 'Cause we have, like you said, there's so many plugins, there's so many pieces of gear. It's so easy to get gear now and if you like it, you keep it, you send it back, you can return it. it's easy to dabble in a million different things, sell it on eBay if you don't want it. But that feeling, yeah, when I was younger and like I just got a guitar. It's like wow.

Like I have a guitar now and I can play it and it was so exciting. But when you can download a new plug in every twenty minutes, you c you know, I follow a lot of blogs and things w about the gear and you know, and I love keeping on top of it, but it's like there's always a new free thing, a new free thing, and you're like, cool, and you wanna get it. But every time you do, I guess it it does take away a little bit of that feeling of gratitude.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (15:03.061)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (15:29.388)

'Cause you don't get to really spend the time with stuff like we used to. 'cause you're on to the next thing and you how's it sound? Okay, cool. And then you just move on and try the next one instead of getting lost in it a little bit and some appreciation.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (15:33.684)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (15:40.759)

And and that's the beauty of it. And it's a lot about what I'm doing now is getting lost in the sound. And because I have this very almost meditative, meditative approach and contemplative approach to sound, which has kind of always had, but it's it it it's been even bigger now over the last few years. But it's it's just that.

time we give ourselves to get to know a sound or just experiment it in different ways and almost I'm using it almost to get into trance, you know, sometimes, but simple sound, meditative sound, and and yeah this this thing get lost into sound is very inspiring to me. And you know it's it's going back to the conversation we had about the Brahma console just a a few minutes ago.

I got mine six months ago before I was I got on tour and I just got it set it to what I needed to do for the tour. But I didn't even I don't even know how to use probably sixty percent of it, seventy percent of it, because now it's controlled by MIDI on on stage so it does everything it needs to be doing.

But that's about it. And I actually I was thinking about that a few days ago. I was like, I think I should spend more time with this pedal because I mean my twelve years old kid, the the version of myself twenty plus years ago, would have been so excited, you know, and would have spent like an an entire summer digging into the sound. And sometimes it's like that. Just just just going back to that gratitude. I'm like, wow, all of all of what I have today is

Is is is so much that I could have dreamed of a few years ago, you know? yeah, still inspired to get new stuff because, you know, it's it's it's cool to keep it is qu yeah, keeping it fun and and sometimes trading stuff, getting out of a of of a rut by sending a synth and getting a new one or whatever. Just is it's good, but I think the the the

Brian Funk (17:31.103)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (17:36.255)

Yeah, it's new stuff. It's fun.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (17:51.422)

The Instagram culture and YouTube. I'm a big YouTube kid. And it and I had to unfollow a lot of musical gear pages because y you always feel like you're behind and you you don't have enough stuff. And and now I'm I'm trying to get back to this twelve, thirteen years old of myself who spends who spent like months with one pedal and and could get lost in the sound. I think what you said is really resonating with me. This this

I yeah. Like it's not just that we can't make it.

Brian Funk (18:23.787)

Yeah, I used to really get to know the things I had. Really 'cause there was no other choice. I mean, sh I fantasized about all the things we have now and all the capabilities we have, but I got a lot of creative work done trying to figure out ways around it. And I do think I've over bloated my computer. I'm sorry your computer went down.

I do have this kind of twisted fantasy of my own though of that happening so I could just start fresh. Like no samples, no plugins and and just add things in as I see fit and I need. I actually got a a lot of use out of a plug in uninstaller. I paid a couple of bucks for one I found somewhere and it searches I originally got it for duplicates, but then I was kinda like, you know, like I never use this one. I never use this one. And

got a little kind of disciplined on saying, like, if I'm not using it, it's getting in my way, it's distracting me really. So yeah, the the too much choice thing is we do that to ourselves sometimes. Hm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (19:38.389)

Yeah, we do, and I think it's just almost a a

overall social thing in in general and that we have in our lives. I don't want to get into like capitalism or whatever, but we just tend to accumulate and and I'm also a big fan of Rick Rubin and I I just love the the way he he used to say that he it what he wasn't producing music, it was reducing music. And I always like that kind of my mindset, you know? Even though Beyond took me two years and it was a lot about layering and

Brian Funk (20:05.253)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (20:14.727)

It was a a lot of sculpting the sound and it required that amount of presence presence and but but yeah, I also tried to get away from from accumulating sound or accumulating plugins. Because in the end in in the end I'm yeah, I'm looking at my plugin list. I have my favorite favorite

folder in Ableton and it's really only what I'm using mostly ninety eight percent of the time. Yeah.

Brian Funk (20:51.241)

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a good way to do it. That is a cool way to think of it, reducing music. I I don't think I mention this maybe, but I teach high school English and teach writing and so often the question if I have a writing assignment is how many words, how long does it have to be? And it's I hate this question so much because it it implies more words are better. So

If I'll say I say three hundred words, then you're just gonna put words on the paper until you get to three hundred and more and more is bet your sentences get long winded. But in reality it's it's about how few words can you do it in? That's what I want it to be. And I think even musically, it kind of occurred to me as you were speaking, we

OVERSEA (sebastien) (21:39.375)

Yeah, but

Brian Funk (21:47.603)

almost feel like it it needs to have lots of tracks. You know, it needs it's almost impressive to say, like, yeah, this last song I produced has, you know, ninety-six tracks and you know, seventy-two of them are vocals and all of these kind of things, which sometimes is great, but I'm really getting into the idea of like how few can I use also, 'cause almost like the gear

I can't appreciate all these little sounds and these little textures if there's a hundred other little sounds and textures dancing around it at the same time. And I think you do a really nice job on your record of allowing us to take in these sounds and appreciate them. You've there's a lot going on. I'm not not saying that it's it's simple by any means, but you've

got a way of allowing the things to have their time and get some presence with the sound so we can listen to them. Yeah, that's an interesting that wind chime sound you have is playing and then it reverses and we can really hear it where it's not getting kinda washed away in the crowd of sounds.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (23:02.849)

Yeah, well thank you so much. I'm so glad it comes out that way because when I was prepping the promo for the album and I was also prepping for this podcast, I went back into the sessions and I was looking at some of the yeah, the songs and I was like, Jesus Christ, there's a lot of things I I don't even know that that were in, you know. And it's it's and it was my whole thing when I was producing was about making it as

I wanted I wanted it to feel like a living organism, like you would go in a forest. Nothing feels like too much, nothing feels like too less, it feels feels perfect as it is. Yet everything is evolving and everything is kind of a for informing the next move and the next little plant or the next little whatever living organism there is. And I and that's what I wanted to do, but it also requires sometimes of yeah, layers. And I'm thinking

of the one of the track is it's called Down Here. I was just listening to it the other day and it's it's a lot of track. It's just for the pads because I wanted them to feel like something was

Yeah, evolving, very living organism, a tapestry of sound that wouldn't feel stagnant. But yet there's there's yeah, another song feel that that's called here. There here is called double name. And it's it's only really f five tracks, vocals, a few ambient and a bass. It's you know, it sometimes the song requires more and I think it's a little bit like you were saying about the the

the assignment, the English in inside assignment. It's it's always about what is in service of the message, the conversation, the song, the the art, whatever the sculpture, whatever the the the convers I mean the the object is about. But it's it's really about what is serving, you know? And yeah, going back to the to the sessions, I also found that a lot of what I had done in my session were muted. And I was like, that's amazing.

Brian Funk (25:07.412)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (25:15.996)

I actually thought of moving like removing stuff. I didn't delete them for some reason because probably I was like fear of losing the idea. But it was muted. I was like, I didn't didn't remember muting these, but it's amazing because it really actually gives space for more to happen. So yeah, it's it was a mix of a lot of work, a lot of detail work and a lot of letting go as well. Just like, I think this.

Brian Funk (25:26.794)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (25:45.949)

This is done as as as is, yeah. So it's a hybrid hybrid thing.

Brian Funk (25:49.002)

Mm.

Brian Funk (25:53.865)

Yeah. Yeah, the mute button has been a friend for me. I I tend to like to build the stuff up and keep adding and adding. And then when it's time to do mixing or even really just arranging, it's almost like what's the least amount I can get away with now? Where is 'cause there's some weird paradox that happens,

I think guitar really taught me this, where you would think the more guitar layers I put in, the bigger the guitars are gonna sound. But it just sounds like a lot of little guitars now inside the music. Whereas if it was just one you could really hear it and it can be up front and all the little noises and textures and tiny details are very easy to pick up on. But as soon as you start layering in, it's they

There's like a point where it yeah, this sounds big, it sounds great and then you get down the road and you're like, Huh, why do the guitars sound so weak? And it's 'cause there's too many of them and they're just sort of blurring each other.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (26:57.331)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (27:04.655)

Yeah, it's the c character of of each song i each sound we use, I I feel like. And also not I I don't wanna feel like a nostalgic person, but I mean, I think in in the old days of music we we we did that a lot more, you know, just focusing on the sound and getting the right sound from the get-go, you know, from the source had to be good and we didn't rely so much on the post-production. It was it was really about how can we get this sound to

Brian Funk (27:25.065)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (27:34.598)

Sound good, this guitar and how can we get the

the performance as well. I think it was a lot more about the the living music, you know. and and today we tend it's probably also this gear thing we're go going back to this conversation, it's we tend to forget about just the performance and the humanity of it, you know, just just putting ourselves into the music. It's so easy to comp stuff, to edit and to get that perfect take and and we

We all know about that, but w what if it's a little bit wrong? What if it's a little bit out of time? And what if it's it's it's not being duplicated? Even my some of the the yeah, this the synth line bass synth I'm doing in one of the song, originally it was just one loop.

that I it was a midi clip that I looked and lit also a at the final stage of the the album of mixing the album I I thought I think I should just replay that through the same synth but not having it played as a midi clip played four times but just play it and even though it might not change everything, it will give some humanity to it. And to me i it was a lot about that, especially with this album

I wanted I wanted it to feel yeah, a living organism so I didn't want it to feel too perfect. I think we have a lot of perfect around us or pseudo perfect, you know? And just the way you were saying it, the the more guitars might not be the best. And I'm guilty of it too, you know. I get booked to record guitars remotely and my tendency is to send twenty guitars for one song and then I'm listening back to

OVERSEA (sebastien) (29:31.206)

the song once once once the artist is finished producing it and they only send back I mean the the finished song is only two guitars I sent and I'm like wow you're right that was enough. I need to go back to channeling my Rick rubbing a little bit, you know? But it's a it's always so interesting.

Brian Funk (29:41.899)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Hm. I think that's a cool thing to do, like you said, playing like the MIDI clip out. You know, in that case, are you performing it or are you just letting it play through performance? So so the timing is gonna change a little, subtle velocity differences and yeah, all of that. You might not notice

OVERSEA (sebastien) (30:03.99)

Performance. Performance. Yeah. Yeah. I I think so. means that

Brian Funk (30:19.283)

But I do think you feel. I I really do. I think we kinda our brain sort of recognizes when something's kind of being like photocopied over and over again and spit back out compared to when it's not and it it's a little more fluid.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (30:38.806)

Yeah, and I think it works for s for certain genres or even for certain songs. I'm not very it might not be genre specific, but some certain songs feel good when it's very, very tightly repetitive. And and and it can also get you into a trance state, you know? It's it's very interesting how how we can use this to inform brain waves. But in general, especially with this album I wanted

Brian Funk (30:39.016)

Those are

Brian Funk (30:44.446)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (31:04.492)

really wanted it to feel fluid and and just very very nature like so that's why I I I really took as much time as possible to make make sure I was playing most of the stuff and and not just yeah duplicated the the midi clips which is yeah not not bad in itself but that was my kind of memo and my kind of momentum at that time

Brian Funk (31:33.0)

Yeah. Yeah, and that's I mean, obviously I think probably almost everybody listening now w does that on some level and it's great you can you can duplicate out those MIDI clips and hear what the song sounds like over time without having to play everything. And you can't like you you did, you can go back and edit if you want, but yeah, sometimes it works too. Maybe we're in a time too where

we want a little more humanity. We're seeing a lot of computer generated, AI generated stuff all the time. And it is nice to know you're getting something alive and breathing. And something even just about the fact that you decided to take the effort to perform it when you could have just done that.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (32:16.908)

I think we could do that if you just have it out there.

Brian Funk (32:26.801)

It's that little bit of little bit of sweat in the creative product creative process I guess that is kinda nice to know that some effort went into it, that it wasn't just the technology taking over. I'm appreciating that much more these days than ever before.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (32:43.193)

Yeah and Yeah. Same, same, especially yeah, with the the the rise of the AI world and

I think we want more human behind the stuff we read, we listen, we watch, we even our emails sometimes I'm like, this feels like it's it's a Chat GPT email, you know? I'm like Who's who's the real person behind this email? I don't wanna send back a a Chat GPT email, you know? It's like I we're not having a conversation, it's just our different yeah, AI machine or whatever to

Brian Funk (33:20.443)

I get so many of those. just send me the prompt. Courteous email asking for, you know, whatever. Cause it feels deceitful. I and I get it for the podcast a lot. I get these emails that are just AI and they fool me and and I get upset 'cause it used to be w all of the I don't know, like PR people I guess are sending me

OVERSEA (sebastien) (33:24.276)

Yeah, easier. Just create a key.

Brian Funk (33:48.741)

emails that they're sending to every podcast. They're just blasting them out. And I could tell in the past I this is just one of these emails. There's nothing personal in it. We love your podcast and it what's a music production podcast in like a different font than the rest of the email counts on. But now it's saying things like, your Sebastian your c your Sebastian conversation was so interesting. How you guys talked about the mergence of electric guitars meets el electronic instrument

You know, gives me a little bit of a thing in there that is very specific detail about some conversation and then they ask me if I wanna have like you know, like an auto mechanic on the show. It's like so unrelated after that. Like I I find that really frustrating and those those are though, they're they're just an easy delete. I mean, I'm not getting a person. I feel like I don't they're not expecting me to get back to them. They're not waiting for me.

But I what bothers me about that I guess is that there are other people like like you, for instance, when we started speaking, I you were human, I could tell right away, but as this technology starts mimicking in that, I'm afraid I'm gonna start missing it when a real person is writing me something genuine and heartfelt. It's gonna be confusing and you know

OVERSEA (sebastien) (35:07.802)

For sure. It yeah, it's it's it's slowly st it's tasked to creep in, right? Yeah.

Brian Funk (35:17.448)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (35:18.176)

Even in the music industry and and it it's it's yeah, it's I'm not kind of against it in in any way. I think it's it's beautiful to have the tools to help us focus on other stuff. But I'm I'm very aware that we are human beings and we are in a living world and it's it's especially going back to art, it's it's about our own expression and our

way to experience the world and experience certain yeah, I I talk a lot about about transcendental experiences, but whatever it is, you know, whatever you experience in life, it this is what makes people want to listen to music. whether it's gospel or you know, or electronic music today, it's it's it's about who it is to sing this story with sound, with words, with painting, you know, with colours, whatever.

whatever it is I think it's it's it's for me this is all about it. Otherwise it doesn't make sense if I'm not having this devotion for humanity in a way and and to create music for someone who will appreciate it it's I'm not making it for the for the the the bots I'm making it for the the the human beings and and in that way I feel like I have a responsibility towards the

people who listen to my music and to and and the people who will listen, you know, especially because I'm I'm in a sp specific kind of musical world slash yeah, it's it I have this bridge with with neuroscience and I work a lot with meditation and and different type of practices. I feel like it's all about the intention we have in what we do and I I I couldn't feel I I couldn't look myself in the mirror

Or if I was not make pouring my heart and my soul into the the work I'm doing and taking I don't know shortcuts with with AI, it wouldn't feel right for me. But again, this is just my point of view. I'm not against it, but in in the

OVERSEA (sebastien) (37:37.923)

work I do, I feel like I have this I have to have this devotion because it it makes the the the the experience I'm I hope to give a bit more real or just just a bit more human. True, true, yeah.

Brian Funk (37:54.098)

But

Yeah. Yeah, I guess I have the problem with the deceit of it, the mimicking of it. but obviously there's there's great uses and all of that. but I I can see where you're coming from, especially with the style of music you're you've just put out, that you wanted to have that. I'm kind of interested in what you said about like the meditative stuff and the

almost like scientific aspect of it that you're you were getting at. because also, before we started recording, we were just kinda chatting and you mentioned surfing and it's something I I've liked to do in the past though. I've had a little time off. I don't know if I'm allowed to label myself a surfer right now, but I love it and so much of it is that meditative aspect. It's not unlike

I'm like for surfing, it's not anything other than just enjoying the time doing it. I'm not trying to really get better or compete or anything like that. it's sit it's enjoying sitting out on the ocean and if a wave comes, going with it. But it is one of those things a lot like music where when you're doing it, everything else kind of melts away. So y you you

Go out there and whatever's on your mind, whatever's bothering you, you get a break from it. 'Cause there there are moments of intensity, you know, in there where you can't be thinking about other things. And that break I find to be really nice 'cause then you get out of the water and now you're on a different angle. You're you're looking at whatever's going on in life from a new perspective. You're not just stewing in those thoughts that are taking over your mind.

Brian Funk (39:49.585)

So I what I was originally thinking was like kind of this idea that there's these meditative qualities to being in the zone of making music too. and there's parallels with that, with something like surfing. But I'm kind of interested now where you're going with some of that other stuff you just mentioned.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (39:52.03)

There's really good pieces.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (40:11.133)

man, there's so much I want to to talk about right now. Well, just to touch on the the surf topic, because I think it it it it really is similar to music in a way. It's that flow state you're talking about. That very

Brian Funk (40:12.648)

Yeah, I i it feels like we just found something.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (40:31.849)

very unique moment where nothing else exists. And I think this is one of the most beautiful thing we can ever experience as as as beings, you know. It's like being I don't I don't wanna sound too corny or tore or t or too spiritual woo-woo but it's but being here now, you know? And it's it's it really is that feeling. And I think to me it's surfing is is is a lot like you were saying is

I'm I'm not surfing to get to be a pro. It's not my path, but I'm surfing to be out in the ocean and and just out in the surf. And I I think I had some of my most mystical experience out there. You know, in the morning with the when the lights the light comes out, the sun comes out. It's it's so magical. And and a lot of it is is is a buffer for me because I'm I've I've been working a lot in the studio and

When I need that that buffer, I find that same flow state that I can have in my studio. But as you said, with a different angle, you're looking at even just just the way of being in the water and looking at the ocean and looking at the cliffs or the the beach wherever you are. But it makes you look at things differently. And and for this album and going back to this conversation about meditation and flow.

I've over the last few years, so much of my music has been about creating s soundscapes and and spaces almost in music to be able to experience something transcendental or something meditative or something just just rest. I think I I wanted to question my own status quo about music.

I was an I was in a band, I toured the world with my rock psychedelic band for years and it it w it was it was a fun a fun way to look at music and I am not separating music into better or if if it served this or if it doesn't it doesn't make it better or worse. But today I wanted to make a music that served another part of us.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (42:48.559)

the part that needed rest or needed to as you were saying this morning, just listening to the song and kind of feel at ease or work on the nervous system in a different way. And also have been very passionated and and did some research in my degree and my master degree especially around brainwave therapies and how we can use music to support

Brian Funk (43:12.539)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (43:16.176)

support us as living beings and and just support our creative states, our rest restes and and this is was this was a big part of of Beyond, but I think it's just a big part of my music at the moment and the music I've been doing for with oversee, you know, this project of mine. Was it was a lot more about this type of space than than than it was before.

And and today for me I think the music is is is is a medicine. Again, I don't wanna sound too sp spiritual woo-woo slash corny, but it is a medicine for me, you know? And I think it it it has been for years and there is there are t I mean tons of research that show how that shows how music was was

Brian Funk (43:56.283)

Right.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (44:11.82)

a tool in the past and still is, you know. And I've been very intrigued by how therapeutic music can be and how we can use it and and bridge bridge the ancestral knowledge with the neuroscience knowledge that we have today and and have this bridge and this conversation with the two worlds. And that's often why I say that I do electroacoustic music because

It's not so electronic, it's not so acoustic, but it's a bit of both. And I think it's it's it's a reflection of this these two worlds, you know, the ancestral knowledge of music and and and and this magic that we we we had. E even like when we listened to gospel or or the first blues songs, you you feel that this there's something of the

Brian Funk (44:54.663)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (45:02.018)

the heart and the soul and and and it kind of evolved and and beautiful but I I'm I'm interested in into going back to this and creating these these soundscapes, these spaces and beyond for me was was really a space, you know. I wanted to create a a space that you can walk in and maybe have a breath work, maybe have a

I I'm working with also psychologists that that work with psychedelic therapies and I y you know, I wanted to have this this bridge and explore this with with music. So this is really w where I'm at with the music and and beyond was created, constructed that way.

Brian Funk (45:50.258)

Well, the album title makes a lot more sense now. Right. You know, I I understand your caveat, I guess, of not to get too spiritual woo-woo and all that. but it is something I think we kind of can't deny that something is happening. when you're

OVERSEA (sebastien) (45:53.098)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (46:17.009)

If you're at a concert and you're having this kind of communal experience with all these strangers, like when you're there, it's it's real. It something's definitely going on. And I know we don't have all the data and it's hard stuff to collect data on, but I don't think you really need it to know that it's happening. it's it's very interesting to find out what it actually is and the science behind it.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (46:21.264)

It's a very interesting thing to find out there actually.

Brian Funk (46:47.323)

But yeah, it is very therapeutic and medicinal in a lot of ways. It's maybe not the same as taking like I don't know, like a a pill to make a headache go away or something. But it it has real effects. I mean, I think my life would be a lot different without that, without that release. All those times I've come to make music and take time away from life and get a breather.

to not be ruminating on thoughts and caught up in the cycle that just, you know, to think about just the way our minds work, where we have a thought and you get on it like it's a train and you it's it could be total fiction. This they're mad at me. That text message came out and you just suddenly you're off to the races and you're in this whole other place.

And it can be just totally made up in your own head. But if I could add up all the times something like a a music session took me out of that and brought me back and give me a little perspective, I think that's probably very significant and I'd probably be a much different person and have much different relationships, I'm sure. I'd be much less tolerable of a person without all of that going on.

There's something real going on there. And surfing is like that too, that gives you that. And surfing is really interesting in that it takes a lot of these kind of abstract concepts like flow and

those types of states and it's real physical. Like you have to literally ride the wave. You can't fight the ocean. Like you'll never win. And and when you work with the ocean, it it's almost easy. It's fluid. It's it's you know, you just kinda coast. But when you try to fight it, it just smashes you.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (48:40.47)

No. No.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (48:56.14)

Yeah, again, it feels like a conversation, right? You know, it's like i y you have the an information coming at you and it's how how will you respond to it and how will you flow with it? And there is it's so funny that we're having this conversation because I was part of a project called Waves of Life two years ago which

Brian Funk (49:17.904)

Waves of life.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (49:18.892)

Waves of life, yeah. And it was all about that, you know, how art or surfing and and all this type of concept can actually be teachings for our wor for I mean for our lives in in general. And and and also I'm just making the connection that one of the song of the album started when I was working on this waves of life because I w it it it felt so inspiring to me that t to to take this concept of i

Being in the flow, I think, as you said, it's it's a very

bizarre concept to to tou touch on, you know. And unless you're a musician or you're an artist or you're maybe you you in certain type of sport, I'm sure you get that as well. It's like you get in that zone, then you understand what it is, but most of the time we're we are far away from being in the flow. And and this is what's been interesting to me, you know, it's trying to

to help the process of being in the flow and kind of talk about it and be an advocate for it, you know, it's like th this is places we can go to and this is places that we are allowed to go to because I think there's also yeah the the the acceptance of it. But so anyway, I'm getting lost in the in the thought of it. But it's just

Brian Funk (50:52.342)

Mm-hmm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (50:54.083)

Just such an i an interesting topic and and you're you were seeing the the thoughts the thoughts train and th and stuff like this. I'm I'm a bit big meditation guy. I do two meditations a day, I do yoga every day, so it's it's a big part of my life. But but i in the end it's it's only to serve

me being a better person, a better musician and and just being a more I don't know what you said, but it was very funny the way you said it about music. Like if you hadn't music you would feel so different and i i it's the same for me and I think music is also a type of meditation and we have all these labels around meditation and around

Brian Funk (51:36.741)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (51:49.601)

what meditation should be or should look like and I think flow in a lot of of of the the moment we can feel flow is meditation as a at its best, you know, like if you get into a sound on your on your synth and you get in that moment where two, three hours pass by and you record something and it feels just right. And you didn't

see those two hours pass by. This is the isn't isn't this the most beautiful thing? You know? It's it's so medicinal for yourself and once you finish the piece of music it might be for someone else and this is the type of exchange I'm I'm really interested in, you know, and it's the conversation between the surf and the surfer, the musician and the music. And it it's it's all about that. That that's

Brian Funk (52:21.286)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (52:43.809)

That's part of the the work I'm trying to achieve. Yeah.

Brian Funk (52:49.456)

Hm. Yeah, it's nice. That is often the feeling I'm chasing is the getting lost in it and where everything kind of melts away, the time fades. It there is no time really. It there's nothing. There's just what's happening in the moment and it it always is refreshing and it's fun. It

the the hard parts of it even are enjoyable and I I think that's where I wanna be when I decide to start and can't always get there for one reason or another, but when you when you tap into it, it is just quite a cool place to be. And and you almost don't know you're there and and as soon as you realize you are, you you run the risk of popping out of it.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (53:45.086)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's it's a fine line.

Brian Funk (53:46.566)

But

OVERSEA (sebastien) (53:50.102)

I think there's there's interesting musician and composer that brought this aspect into music. I think I I'm thinking of of John Cage, you know, in the four I think it was it the forties, fifties, where he started to take classical music into a new a new direction and I'm also thinking I think the that guy name is Lum Le Mount Young, something like like this. Le Mount Young. I think he's a Canadian guy. Same area of

of John John Cage era. but I I remember seeing one of the music music partitions and music shit for one of the song and it's basically two notes. I think it's a B and an F charm. And the only indication that you have is play for a long time. And you only have those two notes and and it's kind of

This is the kind of concept I'm I'm very interesting in, you know, as a composer and as a musician and just as a being as well, as a meditation practitioner, whatever. It's just like having this experience that we are living beings and that we also are experiencing time into different in different ways and and music is such a beautiful way to get into it and and kind of

feel time, disappear and come back and and I think the work of these these guys, yeah, the minimalist guys in those days. I don't know if we we can really call them the minimalist, but

the those guys, John Cage, Le Mount DeYoung, those those type of composers, they are a good entry into this type of flow states. If it's hard to to experience this these states, I found them really inspiring and i I find that they were a very good way to practice it in the first place. Just like playing two notes on a keyboard and

OVERSEA (sebastien) (55:58.012)

waiting for I don't know two, three, four, five, ten minutes and suddenly you don't hear the same beef, B and F sharp the same way you you've heard it like for the past four minutes, it suddenly starts to shift and you get into that little bit of a interstellar feeling, you know and

Brian Funk (56:15.097)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (56:22.682)

everything d dis dissipate anyway. So I think this is a a very beautiful way to experiment different aspect of our of our human self. That's something I'm very passionate about.

Brian Funk (56:37.827)

It is funny that time gets perceived differently because it is so steady, right? It's just ticking along and we use it in music. It's time based. yet you can sort of lose track of it. We feel it differently all the time.

And sometimes the very repetitive rhythm of the music, the timing, takes us there. It it because we're so focused on the time, we almost lose it. Like maybe in a s in a way how if you listen to those two notes playing over time, I guess you start to hear the other frequencies, not just those fundamentals and they start to come together in new ways and you notice

almost like new sounds within it. New new layers of time. Something going on.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (57:36.386)

New layers of time. I like that. This is a good good good one.

Brian Funk (57:41.495)

Yeah.

I wanna I because this is like we can spend a lot of time here too. but y one of the things you mentioned was like using Ableton Live as an instrument. And I think this is a really fun way to look at it. It's kind of how I got into it. I'd been playing music recording and got into some other DAWs and always sort of felt like I was making music against it. And

what I really loved about recording and all the things I found interesting, all my favorite artists too did this. They experimented with the studio like it was an instrument and played it. And then when I finally wrapped my head around Ableton Live, I was like, this is the studio's an instrument now. It's part of my creative process. And I got real excited about that. So I'm kinda curious how that is for you, how you use it like an instrument.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (58:42.061)

Yeah, well, very similar story. I started, you know, I started recording music. I was 12 and I was using a very early version of Pro Tools. And and then I moved on to Logic Pro because I was in the UK learning I was in at a music college in in the UK and everyone was using Logic Pro, so I moved on to Logic Pro.

and and it's it was more recently I got into Ableton because similar similar story most of my music inspiration and and favorite artists were were using Ableton and and first of all the way I found it so interesting is that especially in the beginning

You know, when you're learning an instrument, y you're learning to work with the resistance of the instrument. So if you play guitar, you have the frets and the the the strings and there is so many little details of resistance that you have to learn about. And and learning Ableton was so different. I mean, to me, it felt like another world.

than l than Pro Tools, you know, like even though like even the way it's it's presented on the page, everything is on the left, you know, in in in Pro Tools and and all the input and everything. I mean the the the important stuff are on the right in in in Ableton. And it felt like an instrument in that way for me because it felt like I had so much resistance to learn again, you know, and it it felt like I needed to have this

I mean the word conversation comes up again. It was it was a very more it was it was a lot more of a conversation between what I could do, what I wanted to do, and it it was it was very much in the service of how can I create sound with it. Whereas before it was just serving, you know, Pro Tools was just serving me as a

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:00:58.868)

as a yeah, as a studio to record my music, basically. And suddenly Ableton kind of opened up that space and the little resistance I f I felt like I'm I I feel like I'm holding a guitar but Ableton was the same, you know, it was learning the resistance of the the the the DAW but it was it was an instrument to me around around that time already.

And then, you know, I was I was always having like this joke with my my best friend who's an incredible producer aga also. I was like, I'd I would love to get into modular synth, but I will do that when I'm fifty, because before it's it's too much for me. But what I found in Ableton was exactly what I was looking in modular synth, you know, is that kind of

Brian Funk (01:01:47.598)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:01:52.856)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:01:56.905)

infinite possibility of choices and way of using the plugins and it's it's very more cre I mean to me it feels a lot more creative than how Pro Tools felt a few years ago when I was still using it, you know. And the plugin chain and the way you can create plug-in racks. It's still very new to me. I still feel like I'm learning the instrument as I go. You know and I think beyond was a a

It was a it was a the Ableton Academy for me, you know, because there were places I wanted to go with the psychoacoustics, the places I wanted to go with the music in general and the way I wanted it to feel. Again, I wanted to the music to feel like a place, a space you w you would go into. And and Ableton was allowing me to do this, but it was it was a lot of learn as I as I yeah, learning as I was doing it.

Brian Funk (01:02:30.372)

Mm-hmm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:02:55.611)

And and again I was as I was prepping for this podcast, I I was going back to the to the sessions and and realizing that so much of the combinations and and so much of how I use the plugins and how they interacted with each other, I I could have never done or perhaps never thought of in in Pro Tools. And I'm not trashing Pro Tools because I think I still think it's an amazing DAW for

You know, I think it's it's it's different instruments, you know. And and today Ableton i it really is in the service of what I'm trying to do. A lot more than than yeah, Pro Tools or Logic had been in the past. And and I think to me it's it's really this modular mind that made it for me. And still feel like I can explore a lot more. I'm not a big

Brian Funk (01:03:28.91)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:03:53.608)

gig guy so I I'm not I I'm not yet into the Max for live world but perhaps that will open up in the the next few years. I I do have a few devices and stuff but you know I'm not a I'm I'm not so much of a of a developer guy or yeah crazy intelligent person like that. But I'm very fascinated by it, you know.

Brian Funk (01:04:14.104)

Yeah. Me neither.

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:04:20.151)

But yeah, the instrument for me, yeah, Ableton, the instrument is is the modulo synth I was looking for. But a lot cheaper because I I know that we have a lot of sense.

Brian Funk (01:04:26.978)

Hmm. Yeah. I think that's what kept me out of modular synths was just financial restrictions, you know, because you can really go wild there. but they they have built so much inside a live that it really does feel like a modular synth. You can drop LFOs and have it modulate anything and all these envelope followers and you get a lot of cool interaction.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:04:51.684)

Yeah. Yeah, and also I was I was getting into generative music back like a few years ago and I was listening to a lot of Brianino and I mean Ableton was so good for me to experiment this, you know, with yeah the LFOs and you just use a very slow LFO on one

Brian Funk (01:04:56.024)

with your music that way. Are

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:05:18.156)

one little macro that you want to assign to and and to anything, you know? And it it just felt very very living. Again, I'm going back to this word, but it's really what I'm trying to do in music. It's it's it does I don't want it to feel too stagnant or too static. And and Ableton is so good for that. So good.

Brian Funk (01:05:31.874)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:05:46.5)

Well that's what we love about instruments, I think, too. your guitar. Every time you play a single note, it's different. It's it's subtle, but it's different. It's slightly different. And if you watch the notes on the tuner, they're n they're not right on the green dot perfectly in tune, they kinda waver around it. And even

Hardware synthesizers have a little bit of that where some days there's something funny going on and they just respond a little bit differently. And you can really program a lot of that stuff in. Like you said, you can decide more now. Instead of I I have an old Moog, it's like the Radio Shack Mogue. It was the let's see the MG one, the concertmate. So it was like a cheaper consumer style.

synthesizer from the eighties and it sounds really awesome but it's a little bit broken. Right now it's like kind of broken in a cool way where I can get some fun stuff out of it. But I can imagine a little bit further down the road it's a problem. I tape machine too, where you know f until I had it serviced recently, but before that it was almost unusable. It was just problems with it.

In live you can decide. All right, I want it to be like, you know, I'm gonna take that slow LFO and I'm gonna just put it on the pitch of this synth. And it's gonna just happen sort of randomly over time, but only this much, you know. N not to a degree where it ruins the music, but enough where it just helps it breathe a little bit. and the ability to make those decisions is a lot of fun and I think it does make for some more

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:07:23.235)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:36.78)

organic, lively sounding music when you start adding those things up.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:07:39.64)

Yeah, organic too is organic is definitely the word and that's how I use it. It's I try to use it as organic as possible as possible. And and and and really feels like an extension to the synth for me, Ableton. And it's it's almost a a synth recording station and and and yeah, beyond was so much of the songs there were LFOs and LFOs and LFOs and LFOs triggering small stuff and

And everything it was really my my thing at that time, you know, when I was making the album. I want everything to feel like it's moving and like a breathing organism and and the tapestry of sound couldn't feel static. And yeah, Ableton was a game changer in the way that it really opened up my my musical perspective onto what I could do. Never thought I could do that before. And also the attention to detail I could have I could go into

to with Ableton just just was not in in my headspace or in my my view before using Ableton for sure.

Brian Funk (01:08:54.627)

Do you work inside the session view at all?

Like the clip based view?

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:09:02.323)

No, mostly arrangement. Clip based, I mostly use it for life for when I'm taking stuff live. because I'm also I'm an D for s for artist and I also work for them and building Ableton live sessions for certain shows. And I like using the this view for for this but mo when I'm writing or composing I'm I'm still

Brian Funk (01:09:04.728)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:09:32.277)

old school in the way I I I like to see the arrangement.

Brian Funk (01:09:37.25)

Yeah, I mean, eventually you always have to get there, right? Like if you ever want to export anything, it does need to get to the arrangement. I was sort of just thinking about how when you're in that session view, you're nonlinear, so you don't have to think about the timeline as much. And that was something that I got really into early on because I was like, cool, I can have a bunch of musical ideas.

And instead of just putting them down and hoping it works and then trying to move them around if they don't, I can just kind of trigger them and jam on the arrangement, which I thought was a really exciting new way to write music in that. Okay, so I've got these ideas swirling in my head. What happens if I go here? And then I go here and the drums from the verse will happen in the chorus. That was cool. I didn't expect that. You can kind of mix things up in a fun way.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:10:13.515)

Yeah, that's right. There's probably thirty thing covered for you. But this have your item for your part of time as well.

Brian Funk (01:10:36.183)

But it's you still have your timing, but you're off the timeline. Right. So we it again, like to come back to this concept of like losing track of time and I find that to be a lot of fun to just sort of jamming on these things and sometimes you're doing it for twenty minutes and discovering how the parts should connect and how things should interact with each other in a

Totally new way, almost like you would with people playing music with them.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:11:09.366)

True. Yeah, it's actually now that you s that that you talk about it first it it makes me want to do it. So thank you for the inspiration. a lot more. And and also yeah because I also do some

Brian Funk (01:11:18.485)

Mm-hmm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:11:25.977)

live version of this album and I also do a lot of soundbath but I don't like to call them soundbath because I think they are too attached to this specific label of spiritual world soundbath. But I I do a modern version of it and I do use the clip view for for for that. And to me going back to that is how you can combine things combine things the way you would have never

thought of but because you are in the flow, you are in the moment of it. You think it's it's these I don't know these synth I have in in there. If I put them with waves that I recorded in Portugal and I put them together, how will they interact? And if I add this vocal part I recorded and this things that I would have never thought about even yeah a few years ago.

Brian Funk (01:11:57.347)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:12:23.983)

I I I actually do them, so thank you because I didn't think about it, but I I never took them into a composition state. So it's something I'm definitely inspired to do now. Definitely inspired to try that. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:38.359)

Hmm. cool. Yeah, you just hit that record button at the top and anything you do in your session view just gets printed. And yeah, I I often will when I'm coming up with a song, just sort of do that for a while and then listen back and hear if anything cool happened and then then it's like the reduction process of the production process just to figure out, okay, it's not gonna be twenty minutes long, but

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:13:03.299)

Yeah. Yeah, and the surprises, that's that's the beauty. I I always think this yeah, yeah, the surprises and feeling like it's it's not

Brian Funk (01:13:08.083)

What what are the highlights and that kind of stuff?

Brian Funk (01:13:14.945)

Yeah. It leads to a lot of that, yeah. The surprises.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:13:22.144)

I don't know w where you sit with this, but I feel like when I'm making music I feel connected to some kind of source or that's how I like to call it. Some people might call it God or universe or whatever, Buddha.

I like to call it the source and and sometimes I feel like it I'm not making the choice not just on my own. I'm kind of guided to make certain choices. And I feel like it's a good way to open up to maybe it's just a question of surprises. maybe it's serendipity, may I d I don't know what it is. In the end, whatever.

if we believe it or not. But it's it's such a beautiful way to to get to experience stuff you wouldn't have thought about. And I think it to me Ableton i it is about that in general. It's I mean for me it was a big a big turning point in in recorded music in on my on my on my journey, you know. Everything was being questioned in the in the best way, you know.

Brian Funk (01:14:27.81)

Mm.

Yeah. Right. Yeah, it it does sometimes feel that way. Yeah, it's mist it's a mysterious thing. There's it doesn't always feel like you're doing it. And sometimes it feels like you're finding it, like I like you have a net and you just caught it or or sometimes it's coming through you. But yeah, I'm okay with like those sort of magical explanations.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:14:42.375)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:59.732)

I think that's I I only think that helps me get there and it sort of takes me off the hook a little bit to kind of think in those terms too, where it's not really me, it's just you know, it's you find these songs, you find these ideas or they come to you or they come through you. it's like you as long as you're working, it's like having the like T V antenna up

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:15:04.174)

L C One

Brian Funk (01:15:28.726)

Like you can connect, like but you have to sort of do your part of starting things up.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:15:36.29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I I mean, I can think of multiple times in in this album where I I kind of felt like I had to do the music I was hearing in my head. especially there's one song called Behind Your Heart. I just had the baseline for this song, which is the big sub. It's kind of the central piece of the album. And

I had this bass idea. It was coming from my prophet and it was sitting in my computer for weeks. There was one Sunday I woke up and I had the whole sound, the whole song, the whole melodies and everything in my head. And it felt like it it I couldn't have

think that myself, you know, it was just it was something else. So I was like I was telling my opponent, I was like, I'm sorry, I I'm gonna have this Sunday without you. I'm so sorry, but I need to get in the studio because this this thing is almost like chatter. I can't hear you talk to me. I need to get into the studio and and put these ideas onto the into the yeah and and record them.

And it's it's it's this practice of to me, it feels like it's a practice of being here, being present, but also practicing the music, the the the synth, the guitar, being able to being in in service of those moments so you can flow and

just not think about the technicalities of it, you know, and and and just be in the flow and know your know your tool and also that's one thing to go back to one of the the the earlier conversation is is when we accumulate too much stuff we tend not to know them as much, you know, with the gear. And when you get to that state where you know your pedals, you know your synth

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:17:39.16)

when these ideas, this inspiration strikes in, you are able to go full in because you don't have to read the manual kind of vibe, you know? And and this is this is really what I'm not chasing

Brian Funk (01:17:48.288)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:17:54.97)

Chasing wouldn't be the right word, I don't really like it, but yeah, kind of being ready for when the inspiration hits, being ready to deliver and and and and be in response to this. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:18:09.706)

Yeah, kind of be in shape. Like musically in shape. And yeah, I find that also just with the actual setup too, understanding how things are working and being aware. I mean there's nothing that kills a creative moment than like, how's this work? Well how do I figure this thing out? So it's good to Yeah, it's funny, right? All these things, like you have to be open to it, but you have to also

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:18:31.787)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:18:39.306)

kinda do the practice, the exercise of it and you gotta go with the flow with it, you gotta be receptive, you gotta also know when to take control. There's so many different kinds of like mindsets you gotta get into and you gotta know when to do it and when not to.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:19:02.183)

I think it's such a beautiful mirror to what being a musician is. Or an artist in general, isn't it? Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:19:04.065)

Yeah.

Yeah. Man, just a human really, right?

Hmm. Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:19:14.387)

being flexible in those in in all those dimensions.

Brian Funk (01:19:19.038)

Mhm. Yeah. Well it's another reason why I think doing this has been very healthy for me as a person. So to get back to some of the stuff you were saying earlier, there there's a I can't measure it, you know. I c it's not like I can step on the scale and see I've lost weight or gained weight, but it's undeniable that all these little things over time have

Definitely helped me in a lot of levels.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:19:51.462)

Yeah. Is it is an academy, isn't it? Academy of life. Some some sort of how to be a be a being.

Brian Funk (01:19:55.776)

Yeah. Yeah. So

Brian Funk (01:20:02.997)

Yeah, it's amazing. Well the record is awesome. beyond is definitely worth checking out. And there's a lot of ways you can enjoy it too. I mean, you can sit there and th this is like I think I think this is Brian Eno's definition too, right? Like ambient music where you can as easily deeply pay attention to it as you can almost just let it play. And it works even on my car ride this morning, like it was there were moments where I was really listening. I like, wow, what's going on here? And trying to figure out like

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:20:24.361)

Yeah,

Brian Funk (01:20:32.821)

the mechanics of it, like how you got those sounds. And then there's other times when I kind of almost forgot it was playing. You know, it was just coloring the experience. so I love music like that that can do both. There's some music that, you know, as much as I love it, like I can't put on at certain times. And this this kind of music, what you've done with Beyond, is it's very flexible.

To use your word as well for a lot of situations.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:21:06.435)

Thank you. Well I'm I'm so glad. Thank you for it's so great to have the conversation around those topics because I mean as you can see I'm very

passionated about those topics and and and and beyond was a reflection about all of this. I wanted to I wanted to create a a a a full arc, you know, a full transcendental arc. But also being able to dip your toes and just play one song that you like or just one song for certain moment of your life. but still if you want to have a full introspective or psychonautic experience you can

Brian Funk (01:21:18.283)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:21:45.862)

have with the album so I'm yeah thank you so much for this word flexibility 'cause kind of yeah yeah thank you yeah yeah

Brian Funk (01:21:57.58)

Well c well, cool. so if people look up Oversea Beyond, they'll find it pretty much everywhere, it seems like, right? I th your website I got here, h dash music dot CH, right? Where people can kind of find like the overview of stuff.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:22:10.97)

Yeah, that's that's my label. Yeah, yeah. All the music, all the different projects, but yeah, mostly focusing on focusing on oversea right now, which yeah, y as you know in in an artist career you have different iteration of your work and I think overseas is is the most aligned for me right now. So this is the path for me at the moment.

Brian Funk (01:22:37.173)

Hm. Yeah. It sounds like it's speaking to you. Yeah, I I really see it's the connection through everything. That's pretty cool how you found all these and some of these different aspects too, with the brain and and the science and the nature. Yeah, I mean, science and nature are are sometimes seen as opposing forces, but I think it's probably more just the

mechanism of nature in a lot of ways.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:23:08.586)

Exactly. And yeah, I don't see the the difference so much these days.

Brian Funk (01:23:15.659)

Hmm. Very cool. Well, thanks for doing this. This is awesome.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:23:20.101)

Of course, thanks for having me, Brian. So much so much fun.

Brian Funk (01:23:24.585)

Yeah, and thank you to our listeners for sticking with us. definitely check out Oversea Beyond. you won't regret it. A lot of cool music, great vibes, energy, all that stuff, which I'm sure you probably know just based on this conversation. So thanks a lot. Have a good day.

]]>Creating Music That Breathes with OVERSEA - Music Production Podcast #427Turning Nature into Music with Lomotor: Music Production Podcast #426podcastBrian FunkTue, 16 Jun 2026 23:37:34 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/lomotor52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a31daafb9ff76225b56a45fLomotor is a musician and producer who makes nature-inspired electronic music on a small farm in Massachusetts. His new album ABCAPSILAHAD combines electronic and acoustic instruments with field recordings and the sounds of leaves, trees, and birds. 

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Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.442)

Josh, welcome aboard to the music production podcast. Good to have you.

Lomotor (00:05.205)

Thank you. Thanks very much. It's an honor to be here, really.

Brian Funk (00:09.922)

I've been loving your work, Low Motor. You seem to have a lot of kind of philosophical things in common with me, things that I'm interested in, the way I like to make music, the organic thing, kind of some of your philosophies and love the videos you're doing, the jams, the outdoor adventures. It's really awesome and it's inspiring. I'm listening to your music and I'm excited to kind of...

steal some inspiration and steal some of your ideas and repurpose them. To me that's my favorite thing I get out of music a lot of the time or at least one of them is that feeling that makes me want to make music too. So I'm very excited to find your work and learn more about what you do.

Lomotor (00:42.337)

you

Lomotor (00:56.043)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:01.483)

Thanks, are very kind words. I appreciate it. Yeah, with music, and that's a lot right there, music for me is, it's not worth doing if you're just copying something, which isn't to say that like, you can't learn from, you know, I listen to music analytically all the time. Well, how did they get that bass or how did they get that sound just to make myself better? But I always try to put.

something that feels true to myself and my soul into the music. Sometimes that means sampling from my world. I live out in the woods, a lot of that's sampling nature sounds and tweaking them in Ableton. But sometimes it might just mean something kind of just a little touch of something that's just a preset that I did myself. I would never want to just, you know, just kind of cut and paste from Splice or something.

call it my song. I mean people do that and that's from some of that sounds great. just for me it's it's more fun it's more fulfilling to do it to put more of yourself into the music.

Brian Funk (02:12.664)

Hmm. Yeah, I feel the same way. And something that comes up a lot on this podcast and just in now how I think about making music is the story behind it. Kind of like, like for instance, I could pull up on AmpliTube, right? Guitar amp simulator. I could probably get like a really awesome sound that's like a kind of exactly what I need because it has everything and they sound really good.

But if I decide to say, crank my amp and put a microphone in the bathroom or maybe in the washing machine that's hidden behind the curtain here, you know, to me that that's an interesting story. Like, Ooh, let's see what that's going to do. And how am I going to use this in the song? And I think it just makes for a better story for the listener than, yeah, I just pulled up a really cool preset on Amplitube or, even I designed my own preset on Amplitube.

Lomotor (02:49.633)

You

Lomotor (03:06.731)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:10.264)

But that kind of effort in the world of doing something kind of outrageous and to see what you get is very exciting. And it kind of shows you that you can, even if you're making stuff in a computer, in the box, or even if it's very electronic, you can really get creative with just your environment and the things around you.

Lomotor (03:31.499)

Yeah, definitely. And even if it's subtle, I think that that kind of thing is cumulative in tracks, right? So somebody might, nobody's ever going to hear like, that guitar was recorded, mic'd from a laundry, from a washing machine, right? But, it might sound, you know, maybe to a, right. But it sounds, yeah.

Brian Funk (03:44.376)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:47.8)

except as an insult maybe.

Sounds like you recorded it in a washing machine.

Lomotor (03:56.033)

Yeah, but it's not going to sound like Van Halen or something. If you want that perfect Van Halen tone, then you can dial up Amplitube and there you go. It gives your music something unique.

Yeah, more interesting, right? Even if it's just subtle like that. People can tell, your ear will know there's a little something that's different about this. That's not just a preset.

Brian Funk (04:20.875)

Yeah, I think it was a good word, cumulative, you just used that. It adds up these little decisions that you do along the way. They, they might not be very noticeable and sometimes it's not even a fader or a track that can account for it, but it comes through. It's an energy, something about when we record music, it picks up on your mood. picks up on if you're having fun or not. I don't know.

Again, you can't quantify these things, but it comes across in the listening.

Lomotor (04:55.839)

Yeah, I agree.

Brian Funk (04:59.147)

I think maybe I'll just mention this now to kind of put ourselves on the hook, but we said right before we started recording, we'd put together some kind of sample pack or drum rack with some of your sounds and they all try to work some Ableton stuff, tricks in there to kind of do some sort of collaboration, but that'll be something people can download for free and use in their own music and kind of spread it out and maybe inspire some people.

Lomotor (05:23.563)

Yeah.

Go to to town use some use some some trees and logs and leaves and make something something fun

Brian Funk (05:32.555)

Yeah. Link in the show notes.

so yeah, like, can you maybe tell me a little bit about, so you seem to be in like a rural area in, I think you said in Massachusetts, right? how that you, you definitely incorporate that all people need to do is go on your YouTube or your Instagram and just watch what you're doing. You're outside half the time, your dogs are running around and you've got your push standalone out there. it's a really cool way that you're pulling nature in and, man, maybe just tell us a little bit about the.

Lomotor (05:48.895)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (06:09.185)

the world you exist in.

Lomotor (06:11.713)

Yeah, so I live in Boxford, Massachusetts, which is north of Boston. And it's a rural town. I mean, seems from some of the videos I make, I should say they're a little edited. It looks like I'm sometimes in the wilderness in northern Maine or something. And there are some wonderful isolated places near me that I love, but I'm not living in a cabin without any power.

Brian Funk (06:29.132)

You

Lomotor (06:39.777)

in the woods, but it is very wooded. I moved here in 2011, built this basement studio, was kind of the first thing that I did. And then we have a barn and small farms and some mini horse, a horse, goats. And so that's, I grew up in the woods too, in the Hudson Valley area. It's just always been part of my existence.

I think it's helped me find an identity as a musician. For a long time I was kind of copying other people and I play guitar for a long time in a band, kind of like what you've talked about, Brian, and that's always fun. This is kind of a whole side of my life and personality that I've been more incorporating into the music.

Lomotor (07:34.017)

Yeah, to make it, it's a well that I can pull a lot from. And part of that is being in nature. Even if I, so I'll bring my push. Push standalone was kind of a game changer for me too. I've been waiting forever. Even when push two came out, like, it's not, you still have to plug it in somewhere. But finally with the battery, I was very excited when that came out. I would go out and record samples and then come back and.

Brian Funk (07:53.164)

Hmm.

Lomotor (08:03.809)

and the songs and stuff but now it's you can kind of do that all wall out in nature with the dogs running around and that's just that's just wonderful. Yeah and like you like you said before it's it means I can take very specific parts of my world and turn it into some of my music which I hope makes it sound different or unique or a little bit unlike something else you might hear.

Brian Funk (08:31.861)

Hmm. I think it does. And I say this a lot in my Berkeley class. I teach Berkeley's Ableton Live sampling class online. And I love that class because I think it's a really great way to build your own identity musically or sound because, you know, one of the exercises we do is just recording your day. Just go through your day, find noises that come up and then put some kind of composition to that. And

everybody's day is a little bit different. And even a lot of them only get through breakfast because they're in the kitchen and they're like, I've got, you know, two gigs of sounds now. Like I got to just make something. But even the breakfast routine of everyone is unique and the types of coffee machines they use or pans or pots and bowls and the room they're in, the acoustics, everything comes out a little bit different with their own mark on it and just

Even if it was the same person in the same room, how close do they put the microphone? It's going to make a little difference. So I love that route in trying to make music unique because you're forced to in that way. You're going to get something unique no matter what. Whereas if you go and you pull up presets and I do this too all the time, everyone does. You're getting the same preset as somebody else and, or same sample or something.

Lomotor (09:44.342)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (09:59.189)

Not to say you can't do unique stuff with that. And I think it's probably best to, you know, do some sort of combination of everything. But that's a real sure-fire way to be like, nobody has the sound of this, this tree and this rock making this beat.

Lomotor (10:14.145)

That's right, is the only kick drum that's going to sound like this. This tree. Yeah.

Brian Funk (10:19.338)

Yeah, right. Yeah, it's a really, it's a cool approach.

Lomotor (10:26.143)

which I don't know if you want to talk about social media, because I kind of have a love-hate relationship with social media, but that was part of this driver with me. I should say, feel like it's, in one part, tearing the fabric of society apart. On the other hand, I want my music to be heard by people, right? And for a long time.

Brian Funk (10:44.353)

Yes.

Brian Funk (10:48.577)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (10:50.465)

It just wasn't, you know, and so, I don't know, a couple years ago, I thought, well, I want to at least get it out in front of more ears. But I also want to be myself. Where's that intersection? So make a conscientious plan to post more of what I'm doing, but make it be true to myself still. So this path of filming more in nature and making music in nature was my compromise.

Brian Funk (11:05.132)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (11:20.267)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (11:20.417)

I kind of hate sometimes that I'll be out in a beautiful place and I think to myself like this would this will be a good content if I you know when I can't just you know back on this Yeah, so I'll try to separate the two you know I'll have a plan a day like I'm gonna go film and it's only if it's a filming day and then I'll have another day of Just going out without anything and just to enjoy it know feed the soul that way

Brian Funk (11:29.067)

Yeah.

Just take it in, soak it in.

Brian Funk (11:48.842)

Hmm.

Lomotor (11:50.921)

I do have a few of my special places in the woods that are sacred. I'm not going to film there. Those are just my secret spots.

Brian Funk (11:56.477)

really? That's cool. Yeah. So, you know, that's a smart thing because then when you go there, that part of you just sort of turns off and you don't have to even wonder if you should be doing it or not. Just, no, we don't do that here. This is different.

Lomotor (12:12.724)

Exactly, yeah.

Brian Funk (12:15.52)

Well, yeah, it's a weird time, right? Because we have this amazing power to reach everybody. Pretty much everybody. You know, going back to like the first albums I ever released with bands, like you had to physically find a person and put it in their hands and hope they put that inside their music player and turned it on and all of that stuff. Luckily, at least I guess back then, not as many people were handing out.

Lomotor (12:37.345)

You

Brian Funk (12:44.214)

tapes and CDs, so it was a little bit special, but we...

Lomotor (12:49.695)

I remember going to Newbury Comics with a CD, you know, with like my box of CDs and just handed them to the guy, the guy who worked there, like, hey, can you stock, you know, my CDs, just literally in person, you know, here. And I was so excited when they were in the racks there. I'd go back now and then and check. it's still there.

Brian Funk (12:53.312)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (13:07.148)

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I guess we didn't sell any. Yeah, we did that with like the local record stores when we had them. And we'd go in and they often had like a local band section or something and they put them in and we'd like tell our fans you could buy it at, know, Looney Tunes, which is a local place around here. yeah, real deal. like people go in, I saw it there. And then we'd go back and we'd see it there.

Lomotor (13:16.011)

Yeah, great.

Lomotor (13:25.395)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, we're real now.

Lomotor (13:35.489)

Nobody bought it, but was there.

Brian Funk (13:37.121)

I think like one or two times they said, we sold your CDs. And we're like, what? You sold all four of them? It's amazing. We need more. Yeah. But I have a weird nostalgia for those times, but I mean, there is really something incredible about what we can do now with putting stuff out. So it is smart to take advantage of it. I guess you got to watch out for the numbers a little.

Lomotor (13:42.005)

Yeah, it's a big day.

Brian Funk (14:07.562)

You know, if you put something out and then all of sudden that thing gets a lot of hits that can kind of color your next project. I guess I'm going to make something more like that again. And I, I've found that every once in a while, something like that happens. I'm like, that's what they want. But inevitably it's like, well, I don't really want to keep doing only that. But I think as you, the more you do it, you start building this larger body of work and.

Lomotor (14:17.355)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (14:31.115)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (14:37.96)

I've found with a lot of artists I really like and even content creators, which are artists obviously too, the ones I get into the most are more, they become the person behind it and less so even the work. It's like just interesting what they do. I don't need you to do that one thing that pulled me in at first. I just kind of like what you do.

Lomotor (15:01.601)

I think that's why bands, people come along for the ride for bands like Radiohead or bands that have really changed or had an arc in their career, right? People are there for it.

Brian Funk (15:08.524)

Hmm.

Sure.

Yeah, we're just going to check them out. They're going to do something interesting. And, you know, we probably all have our favorite Radiohead moments and phases, but when they come out with new stuff, it's always like, huh, now what? And it's kind of fun that you get challenged a little too. Like, hey, we didn't do OK Computer again. Or somewhere else. Check it out.

Lomotor (15:18.271)

Red.

Lomotor (15:28.967)

yeah. Anyway. Right.

Right.

And it took people, a lot of people like years, right, to sort of come around to KID-A and that whole electronic, right. They lost a lot of people and then kind of regained them over time. So.

Brian Funk (15:45.996)

Hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (15:52.012)

Yeah, that was a huge album for me, Kid A. I loved OK Computer too. Kid A actually, I think, got me more into Radiohead than I ever was. I always liked them, but when I heard that record, I was like, oh man, this is crazy. And then went back and got deeper and deeper. I think maybe OK Computer is my favorite one now. But Kid A was, when I came out,

Lomotor (16:15.925)

there.

Brian Funk (16:19.487)

like what am I even listening to like I've never heard anything like this before really like

Lomotor (16:24.481)

I was one of those people who was like, this isn't okay computer, what is this? I hear like clarinets. And I didn't listen, I was like, I'm not gonna listen to that. then, yeah, I was one of those people who years later was like, oh, this is great. Now, Kitty is my favorite. Took a while to expand my musical mind.

Brian Funk (16:28.319)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:38.537)

Hmm. Hmm.

Brian Funk (16:44.361)

Yeah, that's nice when that happens. That's good art. It should be a little bit of a challenge sometimes. A little push. Yeah, see what you can do with this. Can you take this? It's like Marty McFly in Back to the Future. You guys aren't ready for this, but your kids are gonna love it.

Lomotor (16:49.281)

A little push. Yeah.

Lomotor (16:55.851)

Do you?

When you run into that where you think to yourself like, maybe I just need to make more of this thing that people seem to like, do you try, do you do that? And if so, do you kind of set parameters to still make whatever you're making, you know, feel real and honoring yourself?

Brian Funk (17:27.145)

Yeah, I think over time, a lot of the most successful stuff is more in line with what I want to be doing anyway. Luckily, it kind of works out that way. Yeah, there's definitely been a few things when I look back, I can see like, yeah, I see what I was trying to do there. was trying to like catch people or

Lomotor (17:51.521)

You

Brian Funk (17:54.313)

maybe even a little click-baity at points.

But I've never enjoyed that enough to want to keep doing it. know, I really, once I start looking at the numbers and stats, just, I don't even know how to make any sense of it. And there's just not enough time to care about it too, for me. And I guess, you know, having a day job gives me that luxury where I don't have to really, I don't have to worry about it too much.

Lomotor (18:04.395)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (18:30.281)

You know, if I'm numbers go down on YouTube and I don't make any money off YouTube anyway, but you know, the, the ad sensor, the whatever thing they send you every once in a while when you cross the threshold, it's not really a noticeable dent in what I, so, I try not to really worry about it too much. Once in a while I'll, I'll look and see what was working, but

Lomotor (18:36.417)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (19:00.211)

I don't know. I don't know how to do it, really.

Lomotor (19:00.597)

Yeah.

Lomotor (19:06.529)

Yeah, me neither. I think you kind of have to fully commit to being that kind of artist if you're going to do that. I think you just have to be like, I'm going to be an internet artist and just follow all these trends and learn all that part of it, the metrics. I think it's rare when someone's...

Brian Funk (19:07.787)

I'm not interested enough, I guess.

Brian Funk (19:24.81)

Hmm.

Lomotor (19:33.409)

kind of just doing it with a day job, sort of half. Maybe I'm wrong, you know, I think you can, if you wanted that internet popularity, you kind of, have to fully, I think, do it and pay attention to it. And I don't know if you know what I'm saying.

Brian Funk (19:50.934)

people become, they get expectations too. I mean, this happens to me. I'll see something from somebody on YouTube or something. I love that. And then I look at the other stuff and it's not really that. Or the next thing that comes out isn't what I thought it was going to be. it's like, Hey, you were the one that was talking about like philosophy of creativity and now you're just reviewing a piece of gear. But then there's other people that I know that

Lomotor (20:04.289)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (20:20.159)

they do a great job reviewing the gear and then they come out with something else. I'm like, but I just wanted to know how it worked. So I guess it's, know I'm, this is a long game thing for me. It's already been a pretty long game. I don't see any signs of stopping or desires to want to stop making art and music and sharing it. So, yeah, just, just doing it.

Lomotor (20:25.609)

I know, yeah.

Brian Funk (20:48.703)

just going for it and having fun. If I'm having a good time, think people, someone out there might enjoy it too.

Lomotor (20:48.961)

Yeah.

Lomotor (20:56.577)

I think that comes through. Same for the podcast. I listen to your podcast, you always sound truly interested in it. It's clear you like doing this. I think that comes through. Same in music.

Brian Funk (21:08.683)

Yeah, I really do. It's very interesting. I here I'm talking to you right now, right? Like picking your brain about what you're doing, about music I'm inspired by. So, I mean, that's really exciting. And it's a great excuse to just to talk to people, right? Just to connect. mean, it'd be kind of weird if I listened to your hours like, Hey, Josh, can I call you and just talk? You know, right? For no reason that you'd be like, what? Who's this guy?

Lomotor (21:26.209)

Yeah.

Lomotor (21:34.581)

Hehehehehe

Brian Funk (21:38.917)

but you know, in this context, it sort of gives it a reason to exist. so yeah, I mean, it's just fun. and without having to really worry about funding it and sponsors once in a while, if some sponsor comes along that I like, and I'm into their stuff, I'm happy to do that. And if I can,

Lomotor (22:02.197)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:04.68)

I try to even now make it a little more of a fun project than just like, ladies and gentlemen, let me tell you about a new product. And so that becomes like, now I'm still being creative with it. But yeah, don't, there's other things that come through that I see it. I'm like, I don't want to talk about that. I don't want to put that out. And yeah, it might be the hot topic of the day, but yeah, that's not really what I'm interested in. It's nice to have that, that freedom.

Lomotor (22:15.563)

Yeah.

Lomotor (22:28.161)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:34.068)

Definitely.

Lomotor (22:38.431)

you have dreams of being a professional musician? Did you think you were going to be a rock star at some point?

Brian Funk (22:45.322)

Yeah, I thought I wanted that. That was like, you know, probably from the minute you pick up a guitar, right? You're like, yes. But I mean, I love playing in bands and still do and like playing shows a lot and do occasionally. I think I really learned this though, in setting up some tours, like little two week deals down the East coast where we'd play probably like

Lomotor (22:52.206)

Hahahaha!

Brian Funk (23:12.314)

seven to ten of those nights and then, you know, drive to the next show in a car. And we had a great time. It was the guys hanging out and playing music. But by the end of that, I was like, okay, you know, it's time to go home. I want to go home. I want to eat a regular meal and not just like junk that we're picking up on the road. And I want to sleep in a bed. And I had a cat. I want to see my cat, you know, I to have a relationship. All these things like

Lomotor (23:17.291)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (23:27.617)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (23:41.119)

I guess you don't realize that when you picture yourself on the big stage, you know, hitting your cord, you know, in front of a screaming audience, you see that, but you don't see like all the other stuff that goes into it. So much more than that. yeah, I'm a home body kind of guy too. I like, I like being home and I just, I liked it, but not enough to want to do it 50 weeks of the year.

Lomotor (23:56.757)

Right.

Lomotor (24:09.887)

Yeah. It seems... Yeah. It seems like a hard life.

Brian Funk (24:10.922)

That became clear to me.

Brian Funk (24:16.912)

I think it is. I mean, people love it. You have to love it, I think, to do it, really. Sometimes you just got to do things to realize whether you like it or not. Even playing guitar for me was that. I didn't know I was going to like playing guitar. I didn't know I was going to like doing this even. I didn't know I was going to like being an English teacher. But sometimes you just got to be in it to really understand what

Lomotor (24:23.83)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (24:46.65)

else is around it and then things clear up a little bit. So yeah, I'm pretty happy with how things worked out musically and I'm glad I don't have to be going on the road because I just enjoy it to a point. But the point to which I stop enjoying it is so much less than what's required.

Lomotor (24:51.413)

Yeah.

Lomotor (25:12.309)

Yeah. You've talked about it, I think, in the past, but I wonder too, like if your life was totally different, you know, if I had no other obligations, not a day job or anything, would you really, would I be doing music as much as in my head I would be, you know, with all that extra time really mean and be making more songs and I, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to know, right? You don't know that's an alternate life.

But my guess is a lot of the time you'd waste some of that time. You'd say, I have all this time I can watch more TV or whatever.

Brian Funk (25:46.153)

Yeah. Well, I get summer vacations, so I do get a little taste of that. And I waste a lot of that time. really do. I try to be productive and I try to do something, but I'm not as productive as I think I'm going to be.

Lomotor (25:52.257)

Yeah, you get a real test every summer.

Lomotor (26:03.201)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (26:03.274)

I don't make four albums every summer. Like in my head I have the plan. You know, come June I'm like, yeah, I'm ready. I'm going to by the end of June I'll have the first two out. It's like, no, you'll have just sat out in the sun because it's nice out. And then you went to the beach and you know, those kinds of things. The pressure of the time constraint when I'm at work makes me more productive.

Lomotor (26:06.229)

Right.

Lomotor (26:13.429)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lomotor (26:18.059)

Bread.

Lomotor (26:22.453)

Yeah, I think I work better.

Lomotor (26:27.489)

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. I think I work better if I know I have a, like, say a half-day window, right? If I know I can... I always wake up super early myself just because I like that quiet, dark, alone time. But I know I have that, let's say, on a weekend morning. I have that from 5 a.m. until maybe 11 or noon, depending on other obligations.

he can schedule out that time. One of the things I always try to do is plan the night before what I'm going to do so that I can...

not sit there and just start opening old song ideas and spend an hour and a half just scrolling through live projects that you're never going to finish and doing maybe an instrument or a little tweak for each one and then move on to the next. You can go down that vortex and get lost forever. So I'll plan the night before. Tomorrow I'm going to do...

Brian Funk (27:12.434)

Right.

Lomotor (27:21.781)

this step and find the baseline for that track and finish it or something like that so that then when I wake up I quickly drink my espressos and start doing that right away and you have a structure. And then like you said with the limitations then like if got this time I've got to do it.

Brian Funk (27:41.514)

Hmm.

Lomotor (27:41.589)

do it. Don't look at your phone. Don't avoid distractions for that window. And if you know you only have that little window, it's easier to avoid distractions, right? If you have days, you kind of just get lost in that.

Brian Funk (27:54.314)

Yeah, I could do it later. Well, you know what? Let's go for a walk. Let's have a snack. Let's watch this video. Let's learn something. Learning is my killer, my secret way that procrastination gets me all the time. Like, I'll learn how to use this device, or I'll watch things I already know and just how are they using it? How are they using a saturator in life?

Lomotor (28:00.299)

Yeah.

Lomotor (28:05.749)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (28:21.771)

I have a rule for that for myself where I will only learn from YouTube if I have my music computer open next to it. So I'll be watching the video but actually doing it myself instead of being passive about it. I mean sometimes I'll just watch that stuff while I'm doing the dishes or whatever but I won't.

Brian Funk (28:35.059)

Yeah, smart.

Brian Funk (28:41.841)

Yeah.

Lomotor (28:43.981)

sit and just kind of watch stuff if I should, could be doing, actually doing music. Like at that point, open the, turn on the music computer and you know, do it. Follow along. In that way at least maybe you'll have something at the end of it that you can use to make a song.

Brian Funk (29:00.541)

Yeah, I think that's our big challenge these days is all these distractions, all these other things we can do, infinite choices. I give people, young people especially, that start into music or any kind of hobby these days, I give them a lot of credit because part of how I got into playing guitar was boredom.

I just, I now have anything else to do. I already played the video game that I have to death and you know, it wasn't like I had access to every other video game that ever existed like we do now too. But I always kind of wonder to myself like, would I have stuck through those hard times? Would I have dealt with my fingers hurting and...

Lomotor (29:23.627)

Yeah.

Lomotor (29:40.278)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:45.106)

not figuring out the chord and not being able to turn to YouTube to get the answer on how that Nirvana song went. All these things that you can do now. I don't know if I would have survived. I might've just went on Instagram or started watching something else, playing a game.

Lomotor (30:05.185)

It's so easy to do something else now. Yeah. I wonder too. I wonder if will be less creative or something because of that. It's just so easy to be entertained now by everything. I know, I feel like we sound like grumpy old men talking about this, it does seem like it's very different, right? Like you said, when you were kids, like you're very limited and you know, we had four VHS movies. So.

Brian Funk (30:26.408)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (30:32.327)

Yeah.

Lomotor (30:32.961)

I watched Hooper with Burt Reynolds a hundred times because that was one of them.

Brian Funk (30:35.977)

Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I see it in my students. Like I don't see as much creativity as I used to. And when I do, I'm like thrilled. Like, good. Yes. you paint. Awesome. You draw. Yay. Thank. Good. You need those things in your life. But yeah, I don't know. I look.

Lomotor (30:49.973)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (30:58.058)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (31:01.671)

I'm trying to look at it like with empathy to realize like I'm the same as them. I'm, we're humans. We're all the same exact DNA. We're not more or less evolved. You throw us a baby born today into, you know, the year 12 and no one would know the difference. Right. So I, I would, I try to remember, I'd probably be exactly like them. And yeah, I don't know if I would have overcome that. Not sure.

Lomotor (31:19.169)

Mm-mm. Right.

Lomotor (31:31.265)

probably would have played less guitar.

Brian Funk (31:34.739)

Yeah, it might have been like, this is hard. But I'm to play this game I found on my phone.

Lomotor (31:37.749)

Yeah.

Lomotor (31:44.041)

Right. Yeah, I think I would have been the same way. I think it's very rare to be that driven, especially as a child. You can block out distractions. And nowadays it's just so easy. It's all on your phone, right? It's all right there.

Brian Funk (31:48.051)

there.

Brian Funk (31:57.638)

I hope AI will fix that for us in the way AI is polluting social media and YouTube and there's just so much content. It'd be like, I don't even want to look at this. I mean, I get that a lot. I can't even look at Facebook anymore because everything is...

Lomotor (32:02.113)

Yeah.

Lomotor (32:08.393)

I mean it'll make it so bad.

Uh-huh.

Lomotor (32:16.651)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (32:18.057)

every video is AI and half of them are people that think they're real and it's just like there's no point in being here anymore. So that's good. I like that. But maybe like, to get back to like your music, I think this might be a drive to go out and do something real.

Lomotor (32:26.838)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (32:45.831)

record like the sounds around you walk in the snow and turn that into music and bang on this log and get your hands on things. I hope that happens a lot. I think it's part of, I mean, I've always been drawn to this, but I think I'm more so interested in it now because the, it's so much more of a statement now, I guess, right? Some of my early recordings where I was

Lomotor (32:59.988)

Absolutely.

Lomotor (33:11.083)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:14.845)

banging on garbage cans to make percussion was because I didn't have percussion. So I didn't have a set of congas and all this stuff to play around with. Now when you do it, you're doing it knowing like, I could just get that loop off Splice. I have a preset inside of Logic or Ableton, but I'm deciding to go against that and go through the effort of this. it's...

It feels more deliberate and more of an artistic stance. And I like that.

Lomotor (33:45.323)

Yeah.

Lomotor (33:49.665)

Yeah, I think you're right. It's every, I don't know what you call, AI and social media, every big social entity like that has a backlash or it's opposite. And there's some people I think who are gonna always, I don't know, people might love all those AI videos. But right, I think there's...

Art is sometimes reacting to what's happening in society as a response, as a push back against stuff like that. That's certainly the way I think about it.

say like to go out into the woods and do something different try to make it real. I've messed around with AI videos and there's still up on my Instagram a couple of them. I kind of try to make it obvious that it was AI but I still would get comments like, does it just slop? So I've stopped I just thought well yeah yeah and maybe I'm stealing from you know all the artists that that AI company swept you know through.

Brian Funk (34:47.497)

Yeah.

Lomotor (35:00.809)

every artist in the history of humanity. Maybe I'm stealing from them a little bit by making this video of people dancing in a field. But I also realized like people, some of those videos didn't, they got negativity and didn't seem that interesting to people. You know, sort of less likes. I think people are instinctually interested more in something that's real and human.

Brian Funk (35:04.265)

Alright.

Lomotor (35:26.721)

And maybe AI will get to the point where we can't tell the difference, which is kind of a terrifying thought. Yeah. But I still think it'll be a while before, like, it will be so good at replicating humans that people won't be able to tell. You know, I think we'll always have that, whatever, imperfections that make us human.

Brian Funk (35:34.141)

Yeah, seems to be.

Brian Funk (35:47.689)

Hmm.

Lomotor (35:55.851)

Partly why in my music I'll try to not be too precious about it. Especially with electronic music, it's really easy to put everything on the grid. And a lot of times I'll put a kick on the grid and keep it there. Have something that's very regular, but then maybe play some percussion, some leads or something myself.

which not going to be... I'm not a good percussionist. I'm not a good leaf player. So it's not going to be on the beat or anything.

Brian Funk (36:25.328)

You're not a good leaf player. I bet you're one of the more capable ones out there actually. You're probably more experienced than most.

Lomotor (36:37.849)

But then people will hear that, even if it's subconscious, they'll... Something will tick. Yeah, it's interesting. Maybe more interesting than something that's totally AI produced.

Brian Funk (36:51.26)

Hmm. Yeah, I have, through this app I use for the podcast, Riverside, they do some kind of AI where it'll, it'll make clips for you. It'll kind of figure out what the good trending clips will be, which is funny sometimes how it figures that out, but it has an AI B roll thing that you can have it automatically insert it. So we might be talking about like recording and, you know, how it's like,

Lomotor (37:07.039)

Yeah. Huh.

Brian Funk (37:21.244)

this magical thing and then like a magician will pop up. It doesn't always understand the context or the metaphors you're making. And I was having fun with that, like how it would sort of mischaracterize it.

Lomotor (37:24.417)

That's funny. Yeah.

Lomotor (37:34.304)

Red.

Lomotor (37:37.995)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (37:39.559)

Like, yeah, this song is like a stew of all different things. It's just like a chef. Like, yes, and the chef has like seven fingers and, you know, the dog with like, that's floating in the sky kind of in the background. So these like artifacts would come up and I found those amusing. But I did see comments like, this is obviously AI. Look at the way that spatula is and why is he even there? But.

Lomotor (37:44.289)

You

Lomotor (37:47.905)

Thank

Lomotor (38:02.305)

you

Lomotor (38:06.785)

That's one thing about the internet, Like it doesn't matter how obvious you're trying to make it seem that you are aware that you're making fun of this thing, people are gonna take it seriously, right? Like there's always gonna be somebody who's pointing out the thing that's very obvious.

Brian Funk (38:15.997)

Yeah.

It's not as bad as it used to be either. It just sort of disappoints me. It's way better at it now. When they first came out with it, it was funny. The bass guitar would just suddenly disappear into a microphone. It didn't make any sense. But now it's so much better at it that you almost can't even...

Lomotor (38:26.325)

the air.

Lomotor (38:32.499)

You

Brian Funk (38:38.566)

You know, it's like I'm longing for the lower quality, almost like I'm longing for like a cassette tape for track sound. I kind of wish, but it didn't last long enough. It wasn't garbagey. Yeah. Right. miss those. Yeah. I'm going to ask you a kind of specific question about when you go out and you're doing your, your sampling and then you're working with push.

Lomotor (38:45.055)

Yeah.

Lomotor (38:49.269)

Yeah, that was only like six months. It's already moving on.

Brian Funk (39:07.944)

How do you record those samples? Are you using the inputs on push, the mic inputs, the line inputs? Are you using a different sampler? What's that look like?

Lomotor (39:14.635)

Mm-hmm.

It's just a microphone or my phone.

put that in later but yeah just a microphone SM57 that I plug directly in.

Brian Funk (39:31.324)

Plugged right in. Nice.

Lomotor (39:33.565)

simple try to keep everything portable so that it can fit in a backpack.

Brian Funk (39:37.767)

Yeah.

Right. had, um, I'd found, I had an SM57 I was plugging in and I was getting some weird interference with push when I was doing it. So, um, I kind of abandoned that, but I just got this new, um, it's like an audio interface actually, but it connects right to the mic and it's only about two or three inches long.

Lomotor (39:49.366)

Yeah.

Huh.

Brian Funk (40:06.6)

and then you plug the cord into it. It's actually a USB-C cord, so it goes in like that. And that works great because it picks it up like an interface and then no interference. And it's so portable, too. It's only adding like, just makes the SM57 a little bit longer.

Lomotor (40:11.393)

Yeah.

Lomotor (40:18.145)

Hmm.

Lomotor (40:24.261)

Yeah. Do you get wind issues or anything? Or can I clean it up too? Or do have a...

Brian Funk (40:31.342)

No, it's the same wind is always, cause that's just hitting the mic. just picks it up cleaner or something. But yeah, it's kind of got to worry about, I haven't taken it outside yet though. I've, but it's, it's the same reaction. It feels like a mic normally does.

Lomotor (40:33.92)

Yeah.

Lomotor (40:45.473)

Lomotor (40:49.771)

Yeah. Sometimes I'll just, I most of my samples I'll just record on my phone and I'll put that to the side and just hit record on voice notes to get the ambience, right? And then sometimes it'll just do, start playing instruments and push.

Brian Funk (41:01.895)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (41:09.909)

and then put that ambience in. I'm hearing it even though I have headphones on. I'm still experiencing being in nature, but I'm also recording that separately. I can put that in later on. It's rare though where I'll... Usually at that point I'll try to chop up... I'll try to always do something to a nature sample. It's rare where it's just like a...

Brian Funk (41:24.454)

that's cool.

Lomotor (41:36.161)

just the birds in background kind of going without editing or something. So a lot of times I'll chop it up into a rhythm or I'll, what is it? Is it the shaper tool, the audio shaper? If you, sometimes you run a drum beat on a track and silence it, mute that track, but have the beats trigger the sounds that are in the sample, right? So it might be some birds and stuff, but it's only, it's hitting on the, on the.

Brian Funk (42:00.871)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (42:05.973)

drum beats only.

Brian Funk (42:07.628)

Do you do that with like a gate or an envelope follower or something like that? Yeah.

Lomotor (42:11.009)

Yeah, so an envelope follower, right. So usually the auto filter, sometimes the gate, but like the auto filter is just a little smoother.

Brian Funk (42:19.473)

Mm-hmm.

That's cool.

Lomotor (42:23.263)

Yeah, it's fun. And other times it'll just be a couple of auto filters, right, or a few gates. now with the newer, it was a 12, flat 12. I love the LFO settings. There's so many options, right, where you can do, I think it's the glide.

too long if you just use the wander, right? So, right, so if you get a couple of those in a sequence triggering multiple auto filters or multiple gates or mix and match or sometimes like a reverb, like if it's triggering a reverb real wet but just for moment, you get all sorts of interesting sounds.

Brian Funk (42:41.895)

Yeah, wander and glide. Yeah.

Brian Funk (42:51.751)

Hmm.

Lomotor (43:04.341)

And then almost always I'll take that and at least try to see what it sounds like reversed. I feel like I reverse everything just to see how does this work. Sometimes it's great.

Brian Funk (43:04.711)

Right.

Brian Funk (43:14.309)

Yeah, the verse is so cool. And I appreciate it because the first time I ever did reverse sounds was on four tracks and flipping the tape over and you know, all which didn't seem like much of a hassle at the time because wow, we could do that. But now that you can just, you know, highlight it and hit R, then it just reverses it. I love it. So are you transferring the

Lomotor (43:34.017)

You are, Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (43:42.541)

the stuff from your voice memos to push through Ableton Live or do you plug it maybe into like the USB or the inputs or something, un-push to sample it?

Lomotor (43:53.153)

So from my, usually I'll do that in back here in my studio. So, so I'll, if I, if I come up with a track I like in the push, save it, get back to the studio, put it in my computer.

Brian Funk (43:59.24)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (44:10.857)

and then I will sample, then I'll take my phone and record that just through my interface back into, so I have that recording in live. I don't know if there's a faster way to import from live, from voice notes, that's just the way I do it.

Brian Funk (44:28.289)

I'm trying to think if I haven't tried it, sampling directly from the phone into push, but I guess if you had a cable that went into the inputs or maybe even the USB, see, or regular USB, you might be able to do that. I gotta give that a shot.

Lomotor (44:31.521)

Yeah.

Lomotor (44:40.735)

Yes.

Lomotor (44:49.473)

could, right? You just need a converter, right?

Brian Funk (44:57.765)

be out there doing it. But I think it's cool that you use your phone a lot. I've been telling people more and more like, yo, your phone is a great field recorder. I used to say it in my Berkeley class as like, hey, the phone has a lousy mic. It's not great, but at least you have a mic and you can record it. And sometimes that lousy sound has character and it works. But now like,

Lomotor (45:06.966)

Yeah.

Lomotor (45:14.987)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:19.659)

Man, the iPhone mics these days are so good. I just watched a video of a guy, I think he's Sugar Pill Productions on YouTube. I double checked that. He's like a songwriting, indie guitar rock guy I like a lot. But he had a Neumann and an iPhone next to each other and he was side by side and switching between them while he was singing the song. And like, I didn't...

Lomotor (45:45.057)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (45:47.695)

I couldn't tell. I didn't know what was what. I admit, in the context of the song, they both sounded good.

Lomotor (45:48.949)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lomotor (45:57.25)

People can be so precious about that kind of stuff. At least for me, I mess with the sound so much anyway. The source doesn't have to be pristine. Most of the time I'm cutting out all the low end anyway just to get rid of wind sounds. I do think...

Brian Funk (46:05.179)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (46:10.375)

Right.

Brian Funk (46:14.311)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (46:17.217)

Yeah, so I agree. think the iPhone is all you need, really. The only time I've noticed where it's not as good as like a Zoom, I have a Zoom hand-held recorder that I'll use sometimes for bassier sounds. So if it's low end that you're trying to capture, I still use something a little bit better than the iPhone. But otherwise, leads, sticks, yeah, I use the iPhone.

Brian Funk (46:29.232)

Okay.

Brian Funk (46:40.879)

Like, so like if you're doing a kick drum from a log or an old tree, you get the zoom. Yeah. I, I, I don't remember if you told that to me or, or I saw it in a video talking about like,

Lomotor (46:44.767)

Right, right, that's a little more high fidelity with the zoom.

Brian Funk (46:56.295)

Stumps and logs are good kick drums, but we had a tree fall down in my backyard during the blizzard the blizzard of 26, you know, and It's still sitting there and I saw that I was like, oh my god, what's wrong with me? I've got the whole like orchestra laying in my ground I was just mostly bummed because I had a bat box on that tree and It got totally smashed. I never got bats in it, but I was

Lomotor (47:05.025)

You

Lomotor (47:10.465)

Yeah.

Lomotor (47:20.34)

of

Brian Funk (47:24.953)

really excited to get bats to eat the mosquitoes and stuff.

Lomotor (47:28.745)

What? Yeah, I wonder how many bats really go into bat box. I've never seen a bat in a bat box. We had one up for years. Yeah. No.

Brian Funk (47:34.183)

Yeah, it never went in. They have them in some of the parks in the wooded areas around here and I think they do. Yeah, I don't know. I just thought it'd be great. We have some bats you'll see at dusk in the summer. So was like, hey guys, why don't you just live here? But I'll have to turn that into some kind of orchestra. So start recording it.

Lomotor (47:40.065)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lomotor (47:49.046)

Yeah.

Lomotor (47:52.481)

Yeah, that's the same with me.

Lomotor (47:59.628)

Yeah, It's the... You'd be interested to... You know, they're very different tones depending on the age of the old log too. Sometimes if they're wet too, like if it's been raining, you'd find like a good, crumbly, old, old big tree that's like kind of falling apart but still got some body and hit that with another big log. It's a good, good kick drum sound.

Brian Funk (48:08.634)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (48:25.968)

That's awesome.

Lomotor (48:26.401)

And then the newer ones are a little more resonant, right? Like you're gonna get a higher kind of sound that's not as kick drum-y. Right, yeah. I'll pitch down. I mean, a lot of times I'll do that and then pitch down the samples if you wanna get something lower. Add some saturation, pitch it down.

Brian Funk (48:31.908)

Yeah, makes sense. Unless you're Tom's or something. Yeah.

Brian Funk (48:47.748)

Yeah, I like that. That's cool. Yeah, I'm going to make use of that tree. It doesn't feel like a loss. It's kind of the beautiful thing too when you record something or sample something. Like you are sort of taking a sonic photograph of it and making it last. I mean, I always get a big kick out of some of the packs I make and they go around and make it into people's music.

Lomotor (48:53.345)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (49:17.156)

The one that really made me understand it was the piano I have in my house. It's, it's over a hundred years old. got it from the salvation army. I don't know, probably 20 years ago now. And, when I first got it, was like, man, this piano, look at it. It's had a life. Somebody played this thing. You just tell like the way the keys are worn and it's like, what?

Lomotor (49:30.113)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (49:42.011)

does this piano know? What did it do? And now after sampling it and putting it out there, it's like, then, and it goes on, you know, the story continues. And every once in a while, someone will send me something they made. It's got the piano and I'm just like, wow, how cool is it? Whoever put that piano together, like if they'd only known. Yeah, it's really cool how you can give something life like that. Like,

Lomotor (49:44.929)

Yeah.

Lomotor (49:50.433)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (49:57.429)

Yeah.

Lomotor (50:02.529)

It's extended life, yeah.

Brian Funk (50:09.882)

like an old dead tree. It's going to eventually fertilize the ground, but now it's taking on this whole other direction. That's really cool.

Lomotor (50:18.269)

hope.

Lomotor (50:22.699)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:25.124)

I've been very interested in kind of off beat microphones lately. Cause I did make a pretty substantial mic purchase last year. I got a warm audio. She's, I don't even remember. It was like a telefunken kind of remodel. I love it. It's tube. It sounds amazing. It's definitely like the nicest mic I have.

Lomotor (50:44.481)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (50:53.131)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:53.254)

And I've got a couple others that are pretty nice, you know, C414. But I feel like I got that covered now. like, sound good enough. So now, like, all these little oddball things. Let me grab one real quick. just want to show you. This one.

Lomotor (51:05.621)

Right.

Brian Funk (51:19.43)

is a soda can microphone. this guy, and I, it's from the seventies, I think it is, uh, 200 years. Oh, it's the, uh, it's the bicentennial. That's what that is, the bicentennial. So it's a, it's a 50 year old, uh, soda can now. Uh, yeah. So this guy, Darwin audio makes these and, um, you can get all kinds of stuff and it's, it sounds like a soda can. It sounds like inside a soda can. It's.

Lomotor (51:22.411)

How old is that soda can too? It looks like a vintage soda can. Yeah.

Lomotor (51:36.641)

That's awesome.

Lomotor (51:46.689)

you

Brian Funk (51:48.551)

Like when you hear it, you'll just know. Yeah. Just like a couple of guitar recordings playing around. made a little kind of like a promo for the podcast. I called it a dedication because speaking of the blizzard of 26, this, I ordered one and it got lost in the mail. It was supposed to be delivered that day. We got two feet of snow. It never came. went through the post office and they were like, somebody picked it up.

Lomotor (51:51.083)

Have you used it on any recordings?

Lomotor (52:15.819)

Huh.

Brian Funk (52:18.342)

And we didn't pick it up. So, yeah, something, it was marked as picked up that somebody came and got it, but the time was weird. It didn't make sense. But the best they were able to tell me is to see if I could get a refund. So I wrote him and I was like, I don't expect you to refund me, but maybe you have insurance or something. And he's like, look, I'll just send you new one. And he sent it to me. And so I made like a little kind of.

Lomotor (52:20.693)

I wonder if it was just buried in snow somewhere.

Brian Funk (52:47.338)

ad promo ad kind of thing form to put on the beginning of podcast, but I love it. It's like you, you want something like a little weird with character. that's great. And I just got this other one too. It's a

Lomotor (52:49.909)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (53:03.558)

It's a telephone mic. Trash Talk Audio, they make this. Turns out they're on Long Island too. Sounds great. It's really nicely built. I made one myself out of a telephone just by soldering a cable into it, which I don't know how to solder, but I was able to do those two soldering marks with the little wires. But they sound awesome. And they sound very different from each other too.

Lomotor (53:05.387)

I've seen those, yeah.

Lomotor (53:32.897)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (53:33.706)

teenage engineering has this one called Ting that, they've got this like little sampling. forget what it's called now. Like they called it like the knockout or something. I never used it, but it's like a little sampler. and, they did like this kind of like reggae inspired one. And it came with this microphone. It's like this little handhold thing that has built in effects and you got to squeeze the button, like on a CB radio or something.

Lomotor (53:47.009)

Yeah.

Lomotor (54:02.401)

That's five. Great.

Brian Funk (54:04.057)

Yeah, but it sounds awesome. It's, and it's low fidelity, but man, character galore. And it's like, don't even have to process these things because they're sort of pre-processed and they have a character and you just leave them alone. Maybe put a little delay or reverb and you're good to go.

Lomotor (54:12.693)

Yeah.

Lomotor (54:17.557)

Right. Yeah.

Lomotor (54:23.553)

Do play, do you sing as part of your band? Do you play live? Would you ever use any of those in a live show?

Brian Funk (54:26.906)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:31.557)

I've, I've been thinking about this telephone one. Um, I'm just wondering about feedback because it is in that kind of frequency range. I was using it, uh, the other night, kind of in my live performance setup, then I was just going through my monitors and it was feeding back a little bit compared to my other mic. But I could imagine a situation maybe where I have it.

Lomotor (54:35.254)

Yeah.

Lomotor (54:41.793)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (54:52.149)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:58.501)

like next to the regular mic and maybe like on a verse I sing into the telephone and then on the chorus go into the, it can be kind of fun. Or even with this one, you can sort of just hold it up to your head and be like singing like that. And maybe it's part of like the show of it, get on the phone, like playing guitar.

Lomotor (55:01.397)

Red.

huh. That'd be fun.

Lomotor (55:16.031)

Yeah, right. You need a song that's like a conversation now between people. can switch personas. Right. Does anybody else in the band sing? can sing to each other through the phones.

Brian Funk (55:23.213)

Yeah, yeah, we'll have to get another one. Background vocals coming in.

Yeah, yeah, we all do, right? That's a fun idea. But these things are, they got character, they got personality.

Lomotor (55:38.785)

And do you think?

Yeah, would you think you could achieve that a similar sound in Ableton?

Brian Funk (55:48.762)

Yes. Yeah. Pretty darn close. You know, and I've got, I've made racks for myself that are like telephone effects where it's the EQ. You're basically just taking out all the highs and lows. maybe a little compression and distortion a little, but yeah, you're probably like 97 % of the way there. but I tell you when you, when you like,

Lomotor (55:51.851)

Yeah.

Lomotor (56:01.398)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (56:17.315)

talking to these phones, I don't know if it's because, you know, growing up talking to people on the phone, it sounds, it has that intimacy of like you're listening to somebody, they're writing your ear and their mouth is that far from the speaker. And, you know, you're talking about life late at night. It's got that sound that I don't think is the same when you do it with effects.

Lomotor (56:27.871)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (56:38.528)

Yeah, yeah.

Lomotor (56:46.347)

Right.

Brian Funk (56:47.553)

And I don't know what that is exactly, but...

Lomotor (56:52.267)

think probably just holding it too might change your performance, right? Like just the interaction with the thing or with the soda can is, you know, it's different than using into a regular mic and then processing it and able to like you yourself might in that delivery might do something a little different.

Brian Funk (57:13.123)

Yeah, I was playing my push the other night and I had the phone like in my shoulder. Like, you how we used have to do that? Like when you were talking on the phone, you held it between your ear and your shoulder. But that was really fun. I was like, this is great. I'm singing. But after like five minutes, I was like, man, my neck. Yeah, I'm married, yeah.

Lomotor (57:17.761)

Did you ever you're married right? So does your wife ever come in I don't want to get too personal if you don't want to talk about but like does she ever come in with something like that? Yeah, like what's going on?

Brian Funk (57:38.102)

Like, what the hell are you doing? Yes, she does. She's pretty used to it though. She'll like, okay, why are you recording that? Now she's more like, you should record that. yeah, there have been a few times where she's like, what? The worst, most puzzling thing I ever did for her was just I was recording guitar feedback for our...

Lomotor (57:52.705)

That's good, just I'm a team.

Brian Funk (58:07.439)

band's and I my friend's orange, it was like a practice amp, orange amplifier, but it had just a great feedback when you cranked it up all the way. So I had it all the way up and I was just moving my guitar around the amp, making all these noises and just sampling them all. made a sample pack of that guitar feedback and turned them into instruments, which are surprisingly gentle actually when you start putting them in samplers.

Lomotor (58:08.886)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:34.255)

Cause you know, it's like a screeching feedback, but when you put it in there, it's like all soft and mellow. yeah, yeah, it's really good for that. Actually. I thought it would be tearing through the speakers, but no, it's, it's interesting how it just like tames it. But that day she came down. She's like, what are you doing? What is this? Like, I think she was also just worried if I was okay.

Lomotor (58:39.497)

Yeah, I bet you could get some good pads from it.

Lomotor (58:57.153)

You

Lomotor (59:03.221)

You're lying there.

Brian Funk (59:03.599)

Like am I on fire, like passed out on the floor? Yeah. Like what's happening down here? But yeah, I can understand that day. Like,

Lomotor (59:13.793)

Yeah, I did something similar. I have this old box AC30. I got it because of OK Computer. It's what they use. I think it's what they use when they're recording. I like, love that amp. But I have a red. We have a double height living room. I ran. I can stand in this room and put the amp all the way up in that other room. And I have long cables that go to it and record.

Brian Funk (59:22.173)

yeah?

Brian Funk (59:28.133)

Beatles, I think, as a history.

Brian Funk (59:42.18)

Cool.

Lomotor (59:43.298)

But it's, you know, the neighbors can hear it. I'm out in the woods, right? Like it's loud. And I remember my mom was visiting. They were out for the day, but my mom was visiting. She came to this little window in the basement and just was like banging on the window like, we can't come into the house. You gotta stop.

Brian Funk (59:59.429)

Yeah, we can't come in. That's funny. I'm pretty lucky right now where I am with my neighbors. I don't think they hear too much of what I do. Being in the basement and a little bit of space. But where I used to live, I got visited from, think, every neighbor on every side of me at one point or another.

Lomotor (01:00:17.857)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:00:27.542)

Mostly being a little obnoxious too late at night. It always starts out like it's two in the morning, your friends and your buddies, you're coming home, you're like, let's play real quiet. You do for like two and a half minutes, but then next thing you know, we're crashing on the cymbals and turning on the overdrive pedals.

Lomotor (01:00:30.497)

Uh-huh.

Lomotor (01:00:39.841)

You

somebody turns up a little bit.

Lomotor (01:00:50.251)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:00:52.802)

So yeah, my neighbor's probably glad I don't live there anymore.

Lomotor (01:00:57.377)

Haha.

Brian Funk (01:01:00.932)

What are you gonna do?

Lomotor (01:01:02.187)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:01:05.634)

What? How do I pronounce the name of the new record? That is something I wanted to ask you.

Lomotor (01:01:10.539)

That's a question. Abkepsil ahead.

Brian Funk (01:01:13.6)

Abcapcilla had, okay?

Lomotor (01:01:15.649)

Yeah, ab caps ill ahead.

Brian Funk (01:01:18.04)

That's coming out June 6th, just so people know. But what is that?

Lomotor (01:01:21.473)

Thank you, yeah. It's a, that name. It's a good question. It came, I don't know exactly. It came to me in a dream years ago and I kind of half woke up and wrote it down on a bookmark that I had next to the bed. And then it just kind of sat there and I forgot about it. And I was just thinking about, I think it's at that point I thought, well, maybe I'll use it for something. I don't know what it means or whatever, but I'll just, I'll use it. And this album is.

Brian Funk (01:01:38.242)

Yeah, okay.

Lomotor (01:01:51.17)

It's a collection of tracks that kind of mix my nature and where I am now but I also grew up in nature and it mixes that.

the memories that I have being a child in running through the woods with the dogs or finding an old beat up car in the woods. I had a lot of freedom as a kid, that freedom with my brother and friends, we'd just go explore and probably hurt ourselves doing something, but it was just so much adventure. And I try to capture that feeling in these tracks.

And all that was, it's all nature is a theme through all that, right? So there's a lot of nature in it. But to me, that word at Capsule Head is this imaginary land that is maybe stemming from my childhood memories that have kind of turned into, obviously no childhood is ideal, but you know, have that ideal in your head. So it's a mix of that feeling and sort of my life now with nature.

Brian Funk (01:03:00.622)

Yeah, okay.

Lomotor (01:03:00.993)

I still have some old home videos too. You can see I've actually got them. There's my old VHS and some of the old home videos. And my dad, I know I've heard you talk about it. My dad, in 1980, he recorded just sort of everyday conversations around the house. And I have that cassette tape. It's two full sides.

Brian Funk (01:03:10.34)

Cool.

I got a VHS down here too.

Lomotor (01:03:30.419)

So I of used bits and pieces of my childhood throughout the songs. So you'll hear them kind of come in and out. It's usually it's pretty subtle and it'll just be like what I was talking about, some kind of rhythmic thing that's actually the voice of my dad cut up or that conversation that's chopped up mixed with some bird sounds or something that's also chopped up.

Brian Funk (01:03:35.108)

Nice.

Brian Funk (01:03:44.824)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:03:53.334)

But all that is using synths too. I wanted to make it musical. And I love electronic music, like electronica, especially Apex Twin and Boards of Canada. Boards of Canada are kind of my north star. And they've always, that type of music, that kind of older synth music also has a nostalgia to me. So somehow the, I don't know how cohesive it is, but somehow that combination of synths.

Brian Funk (01:04:06.521)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:04:22.813)

nature and bits and pieces from my childhood or what the album is.

Brian Funk (01:04:28.036)

Yeah, I get that actually a lot listening to it. It does sound almost like memories, kind of the way they exist in your mind, and all jumbled together kind of, and interacting.

Lomotor (01:04:37.109)

Yeah, it's good to hear because, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that comes across to people or not. So, I appreciate it.

Brian Funk (01:04:44.216)

Yeah. Why is there a song called 1980 was a long time ago? Why are you calling out 1980?

Lomotor (01:04:52.289)

That's from specifically one of those recordings. Yeah, I have the tape over there. Oh. Okay.

Brian Funk (01:04:56.228)

It was 19A.

Brian Funk (01:05:01.709)

That's the year I was born and I'm like, no. I felt like called out for being old or something.

Lomotor (01:05:07.621)

I knocked over my little Zabeverchoo blog that I use for percussion. Yeah, mean, no, so I'm not trying to... My mom in that cassette recording actually says, yeah, yeah, that was a long time ago. So you'll hear her say it kind of in the background, but...

Brian Funk (01:05:15.989)

that's cool. Beavers, what cool animal.

Brian Funk (01:05:30.743)

huh. Okay, that's cool.

Lomotor (01:05:35.49)

and it was recorded in 1980. I'm not trying to call out anybody for being a I was born in 78, so... My birthday was yesterday. Thanks. Do you ever feel... I have to get over that... the concern of...

Brian Funk (01:05:45.011)

happy birthday. Very cool.

Lomotor (01:05:53.674)

sounding like old music or whatever. The music I make is the music I make. My thought was like, this is not for the youth of America or the world. Whoever likes it will like it. Probably not gonna be a 19 year old, but I can't concern myself with that, right?

Brian Funk (01:05:58.179)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:06:02.7)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:06:11.03)

I don't think so. And I guess a lot of the music I was making when I was 19 wasn't for 19 year olds at the time anyway. yeah, I don't know. don't, I don't feel old really. I still feel kind of like a kid that's fooling everybody. Like they think I'm a professional. They think I'm like, I get invited to meetings at work and I still kind of feel like.

Lomotor (01:06:17.983)

Right.

Lomotor (01:06:27.391)

I know.

Lomotor (01:06:31.637)

Me too.

Lomotor (01:06:35.691)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:06:39.672)

You sure you want me there? Like, when, when are they going to realize that I've been like fooling everyone? The imposter syndrome thing, I guess, right? Like, I, I'd feel that.

Lomotor (01:06:40.001)

They're gonna call me out, like they're gonna notice. I don't belong here. Yeah.

Lomotor (01:06:49.621)

Do think you'll be like that always? Like do think you'll be 80 and still feel like a kid?

Brian Funk (01:06:56.162)

Well, yeah, I think we all are. I think that's the real thing about it is we're all really just winging it. know, we're adults. We don't know what we're doing. We're trying our best. know, we might have learned from some experience and taken in what other people have said, but I mean, when you really get down to it, we don't know.

Lomotor (01:07:11.649)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:07:23.105)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:24.036)

I think maybe that's part of why when you're a teenager, you might resent your parents and authority. Cause you start to realize like, like you guys don't have your lives figured out. You're telling me what to do with mine. And that has changed more to, I guess, empathy now where I'm like, Oh yeah, they didn't know what they were never trying, what they didn't know. can't, I can't blame them. Cause I don't know.

Lomotor (01:07:36.967)

You

Lomotor (01:07:47.019)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:51.926)

I mean, being a teacher, think has really made me see that because sometimes that really weighs me down. I've sat in bed at night and been like, my God, especially if I don't know what I'm teaching the next day, if really, or it's not working out. Like, man, I don't know, what am I doing? These parents are giving me their kids 40 minutes a day, five days a week, and little do they know, I no idea what I'm doing.

Lomotor (01:08:08.565)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:08:19.647)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:08:20.129)

You start thinking that way and you go down these like spirals and I've had to find ways of dealing with that. because yeah, I don't, I don't know. We don't, I don't think we know as much as we pretend we do or as much as people think we do. I'm trying to find comfort in that nowadays. More than anything. There is a weird comfort in that like, you know, we don't know.

Lomotor (01:08:27.989)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:08:40.043)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:50.285)

We're trying, but.

Lomotor (01:08:51.829)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's if you can come to terms with that and just embrace it accept it You know, then even then it's enough to stress about like what's the there is no point in worrying about like no Am I mature enough like you are who you are? Yeah, don't be nervous or I think and to your point I think probably the most of those other people in the room that you're with feel similar to the way you do Right there, but they might be thinking you have your life put together much more than they do

Brian Funk (01:08:58.156)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:09:06.595)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:09:16.107)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:09:21.237)

Right. Yeah. We had like a, we have these like spirit days at school and, there's one day we had like rock music day and I brought my guitar in and had like a wig on. And I was like, little do you guys know this is like actually me in my natural state. Today is the only day I'm not dressing up. know, it's the day I finally feel like myself in costume.

Lomotor (01:09:35.201)

And you have your telephone and one shoulder and the soda can and the other.

Brian Funk (01:09:50.155)

Yeah. Yeah. Like this is who I am. I'm not that serious of a person.

Lomotor (01:09:58.37)

I that kind of stuff is so important for creativity, Just to have that freedom. I don't know if it's Picasso. Yeah, to play exactly. Some famous, it might have been Picasso, loved watching kindergartners paint, right? Because there's you know, presupposed ideas of what art should be, right? They're just totally making it for the sake of making it without like...

Brian Funk (01:10:03.394)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:06.893)

play.

Lomotor (01:10:25.089)

him learn how to make a hand the right way or whatever, draw an eye, right? It's just, I think that's actually have sort of through, you see some things throughout the room. I've intentionally left toys from my childhood. I've kind of scattered around. I have some Star Wars figures hanging from the ceiling and stuff just to just keep that childish mentality.

Brian Funk (01:10:27.875)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:44.451)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:10:52.105)

in here, when I'm making music I want to just be that tree to make whatever you want. There's always a time and place to curate it later on and mix and master and all that stuff. be a child, be free when you're in that first creative process.

Brian Funk (01:10:58.839)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:11.917)

Hmm. Yeah, I do the same thing. got some toys scattered around and little knickknacks that are just for no other reason than just like exactly what you said. It is pretty interesting how kids will just jump in on things. They'll just do it. They're not thinking if they're good at it or bad at it, but something does happen along the way. I'm teaching eighth grade this year for the first time. I've always done high school.

Lomotor (01:11:18.571)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:41.986)

And I see it even in them. they're a little more free and like when it's, if we're going to draw something in class, like, okay, yay. And even just ninth grade, they're like, I'm not good at drawing or I don't know how to draw. I can only do stick figures and like all these things they've somehow now put in their identity that the other kids, the eighth graders I'm watching changed. Like it's like, they're different than they were in September.

Lomotor (01:11:44.521)

a little freer.

Lomotor (01:11:56.321)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (01:12:03.659)

Yeah, it's sad, isn't it?

Brian Funk (01:12:12.109)

They, first of all, they're cool now. Like, I'm cool. I don't care about anything anymore. Watch them like they have recess and they go play outside. And in the beginning of the year, it's just like kids running around chasing balls, doing cartwheels and backflips. like, you're like, look at these crazy kids. And now like they're back outside again, it's a little warmer and there's a lot more standing around in groups and like huddling around in the distance.

Lomotor (01:12:14.335)

Right. huh.

Lomotor (01:12:26.539)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:12:33.569)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, everybody's like worried about what the others are doing, thinking about them. Yeah, it's sad. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:40.523)

Yeah, I'm like, no, it got away, you know? You let it get away, someone or it squeezed out of you or something.

Lomotor (01:12:50.657)

Yeah. But isn't, I think, becoming a creative adult is learning to really embrace that freedom, right? To forget about that concern about what are the cool kids thinking, you know, over in that corner about what this silly music I'm making. I think the faster people can get over that concern about what others think or their own insecurities, the more fun you'll have making something.

Brian Funk (01:12:59.288)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:03.587)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:13:16.225)

Yeah, I think so. I think that is almost the entire trick of it. I don't think I ever left that so much, you know? Yeah, like, well...

Lomotor (01:13:26.689)

Good for you. I think me too. I'm just secretive about it.

Brian Funk (01:13:31.893)

Yeah, like, you know, my friends growing up, we've always embraced being silly and a little weird and we laughed at it and, got a kick out of just that in itself. And we were always drawing and then we were getting into music. So we kind of kept a creative thing going. And, and I guess cause of that, we got a little bit better than maybe our average peer. And maybe that helped us get through that a little.

Lomotor (01:13:50.251)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:14:00.332)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:01.622)

But yeah, I've always tried to keep that and enjoy that even like being around like little kids and not being afraid to just play whatever they're doing on the rug and being around even, even the high school kids, even though they are really concerned about all that stuff, they still have a freshness to them. Or at least some of them, you know, and

Lomotor (01:14:23.115)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:14:28.833)

You

Brian Funk (01:14:30.946)

That's, that helps. But I think you really do. You got to not worry about it. As soon as I start worrying about that stuff, I always kind of run out of steam. If I start thinking I need a clever progression or an interesting whatever, I need to impress fellow producers or, you know, show that I know music theory a little bit. All these things.

Lomotor (01:14:32.843)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:14:41.375)

Yeah, it freezes up real quick.

Lomotor (01:14:55.295)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:59.052)

Half of the music that I love is so simple. Most of it is. It's really basic. Just a few twists here and there maybe, but...

Lomotor (01:15:01.888)

Right.

Lomotor (01:15:07.765)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:15:10.206)

I don't know. I find that's the worst thing that happens to me is when I'm thinking about it and wondering if it's good or if people like it or if I like it even.

Lomotor (01:15:20.725)

Yeah.

My arm.

Brian Funk (01:15:24.1)

I like working real fast for that reason, so I don't have time to think about that.

Lomotor (01:15:28.735)

yeah, me too. Fastest. Don't, don't, don't worry about, don't judge the decisions, right? Just go, just keep, keep that momentum. And then if, especially if you're, yeah, if you're feeling like, if you like it, then just keep, keep, you know, ride that wave for as long as it lasts. Try to, try to maintain that, you know, if you have one idea and it brings to another and then branches out to a couple more, try to do all those.

Brian Funk (01:15:35.98)

Yeah. Go and react to do it. React to it. Make something else.

Brian Funk (01:15:55.778)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:15:56.044)

follow those trails as quickly as you can to, cause it dries up, right? Like it definitely, if you think like, I'll stop now and come back tomorrow or something, it's so hard to get right back into that rhythm. It's much better just to, no, no.

Brian Funk (01:16:08.374)

Yeah, you're never the same. You're not the same person. The atmosphere is different. Something happened in the news or, you know, it is very hard to get back to that.

Lomotor (01:16:15.818)

Right.

Lomotor (01:16:20.501)

better to put it all out. Don't worry about what it is that day. Just get everything. It's like the opposite of Michelangelo, like make...

Brian Funk (01:16:24.962)

.

Lomotor (01:16:27.487)

make the rock as big, make a huge boulder of stuff, right? You can always go back then the next week and start to carve away that boulder that you've made and then you find the sculpture within. But try to put it all out there first and, know, mute tracks at that point. Later on, then you can sort of go, well, do we really need these 15 extra synth lines or where's the core of this? Maybe I can get rid of all this stuff.

Brian Funk (01:16:51.442)

Mm.

Lomotor (01:16:55.637)

That part for me is the part that takes forever. I like this part, but I like this part too, but the clash, which one do I pick? That'll take months sometimes.

Brian Funk (01:17:03.906)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:17:08.042)

It's tough because you put the time into all of it and they're all your babies. They're all like kind of precious and special and, but yeah, we need to have that little thing.

Lomotor (01:17:10.667)

Yeah, yeah. If you like them all. Right.

Lomotor (01:17:23.573)

That's where you wish you had some other ears to Which one? Tell me which one to pick.

Brian Funk (01:17:29.366)

That's one nice thing about collaborating, working with other people and in the band it can just be like, no, no, don't do that. Just do this or do this instead. And you're like, okay.

Lomotor (01:17:33.291)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:17:37.729)

Right.

Yeah. Sometimes you're like, okay. But I really like that part. My, just.

Lomotor (01:23:57.396)

It reminded me of a story, or something that just happened to me recently with my daughter, who's just about to turn 11.

Lomotor (01:24:10.401)

No, I'm sorry, 11. She's just about to turn 10. She's acting like a 14 year old. But, no, she's nine for the next month. She...

When she was in kindergarten, she had a friend on the bus and they would start writing songs just out of the blue. They'd write down their notebooks and they'd memorize the melodies. They had like 15 songs just that they just would create on the bus. And I didn't want to put any pressure on them or like, you know, be a musical parent, right? I just kind of offered my services. Like I could record and put it out there in the world. They didn't even know what Spotify was. were like, we want to know the internet. And I was like, I can do that.

So we recorded it down here and I think a few times I tried to be like, you know, sure you want to like, you want that part to be on, you know, to a rhythm or something. They're like, no, the response to anything I suggested was like, definitely not. So it's totally their thing. It's just them singing. Yeah. But I was totally, I did some producer things. I realized that like this is, I'm getting sidetracked, but I did at one point, like this is a little later. They've done a couple of songs now, but their met their energy level was low.

Brian Funk (01:25:05.579)

That's funny. Yeah. You're the producer.

Lomotor (01:25:21.161)

And I was like, sing more and they weren't doing it. So was like, okay, you two, like, I'm gonna leave the room. Scream as loud as you can for 30 seconds and jump all around. And they loved it. like, yes. And like, you know, they did that and came back and recorded their song. it was like their energy level was much higher and it sounded good. But my point for the story was...

Over a couple days my daughter kind of brought up, she was like, you know that old song we did in kindergarten? I if I like that one. I was like, no, I think it's fine. were in kindergarten. Then she brought up again. And it turned out she was getting into bed and she was like, some girl had made fun of her song and heard it and said to make fun of them for singing it. And she was all kind of torn up about it. So we had this long talk about creativity, what you and I were talking about.

My point was, even Taylor Swift, K-pop, Demon Hunter, millions of people in the world love them, and millions of people will hate them, it doesn't matter. We had this whole good talk about creativity.

You shouldn't, you can't worry about what other people think. She was like, do people ever make fun of your music? And I was like, yes, they do. And this is a topic I can absolutely talk about. I can help you with this one. It was a rare occasion, feel like as a parent where could, I could actually be helpful. You know, she was at the end, she was like, thank you. But it's not, I'm hoping that she gets over that, right? Yeah. And I think, I think it did actually help. Yeah. I'm hoping that she, she can kind of just.

Brian Funk (01:26:40.724)

Hmm.

Hmm. That's great you were there. In that moment.

Lomotor (01:26:52.085)

brush that off. You're going to have to learn to brush criticism off anyway.

Brian Funk (01:26:55.838)

Yeah.

I mean, that's really cool they got into that. And then I could imagine you, you're probably like, boy, like, come on in. then, yeah, then the temptation and yeah, you want, hey, let me show you something cool. But to let them just kind of have at it and do it. But yeah, that's kids too. Like they're ruthless and...

Lomotor (01:27:05.683)

Yeah. Right. Do want me to reverse your voices? No.

Lomotor (01:27:24.865)

to.

Brian Funk (01:27:24.926)

You know, it's like so natural for us to want to be, to want to fit in. Like our ancestors that didn't fit in, well, we don't have those ancestors. They didn't have children. didn't survive and pass on their DNA. So we are descendant of people who were accepted. And that's a big reason humans have been able to survive in nature is because we had each other. so that's, it's a real pull, but,

Lomotor (01:27:36.161)

bread.

Lomotor (01:27:52.117)

to fit in, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:27:54.719)

to be able to help her through that, to get to the bottom of it too, that it was like, yeah, somebody said something. If she takes it down or deletes it or whatever, you've just empowered her.

you've given her too much, now she controlled you. And that's so much you see it with kids. They're like, watch this. Watch what power I have over this other kid's feelings. I'm gonna go be mean to them and like, yay, look at me, I'm empowered. But yeah, you kinda see it. mean, they tease each other a lot.

Lomotor (01:28:13.589)

that.

Lomotor (01:28:22.411)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (01:28:28.629)

You must see that a lot.

Brian Funk (01:28:37.568)

It's funny that, and then they're best friends though too. It's like my best friend poured chocolate milk in my backpack. like, I think that's how we express, we're constantly trying to figure out our rank on the totem pole and it's always changing. But I, I've kind of just been saying, I'm like, that's your friend. picked him. You know, like that's what you guys do. And you wish she could just like, put that in their heads, like knowing what you know now, of course, right? Like.

Lomotor (01:28:49.569)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:29:06.526)

Yeah. The kids that nobody bothers are the kids that nobody can affect. I mean, I had that growing up. Like it was like my last name, Funk. Like there's a lot of fun ways to twist that around and make a kid's life miserable. I was a pitcher and I just threw the ball as hard as I could and was able to do pretty well in Little League, right?

And the first time I ever heard like, we want the funk or play that funky music was from the other team singing it at me to frazzle me. Like that's when I first heard those songs, you know, kids singing at me aggressively, know, taunting me. And it would really drive me crazy. And I couldn't throw a strike anymore. I'd be mad and like fuming and kicking the dirt.

Lomotor (01:29:46.187)

Huh.

funny.

Lomotor (01:29:54.389)

Huh.

Huh.

Lomotor (01:30:01.558)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:30:04.852)

But like one day I was just like, I'm not gonna care about that anymore. I just, for whatever reason, decided I'm not gonna care. It's my name, you know, we don't pick our names, whatever, you get what you get. And as soon as I did that, like, it just changed everything. Like they would do that and I'd be like, they must be worried now, cause, you know, and then I would sort of fire me up or, and then from there, like people were like, it's a cool name, you know, instead of like,

Lomotor (01:30:16.651)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (01:30:25.793)

right.

Lomotor (01:30:33.621)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:30:34.336)

turning it into like a curse word or whatever. Then as soon as it didn't have the power over me, it changed. And that was a big lesson growing up. you wish, like you see some kids getting so upset about what they're saying and I'm like, all you have to do is not care. Or at least pretend you don't care for long enough. And I make.

Lomotor (01:30:41.323)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:30:54.549)

Yeah. Right. So much of high school, yeah, or middle school, both for me was that. I just, I look back and I'm like, why was I so stressed about what people thought of me? So embarrassed about things that are totally not embarrassing. Or even if they are, so what? know, kids just... Yeah. Right. Yeah. The sooner you can get over that, the...

Brian Funk (01:31:15.924)

Yeah, most of it's, everyone's going through half the things anyway. Yeah.

Lomotor (01:31:23.797)

better it should be for it. Don't, don't. Right. I think you just have to live it.

Brian Funk (01:31:25.662)

You just don't have the world view yet. You know, you're so tuned in. Your own perspective is all you got.

Lomotor (01:31:33.377)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:31:34.816)

You feel so alone and in that. Yeah, it's tough. I don't envy them. I'll tell you that. I'm never looking at them like, I wish I was in that grade again. It's like, I'm so glad I don't deal with that crap anymore.

Lomotor (01:31:43.201)

Yeah. Yeah, no.

feel like that, we want the funk or something, like that should be your walk-off song as a pitcher, right? Like, that's... Yeah, that's funny.

Brian Funk (01:31:57.184)

Yeah, well they had weaponized it on me. Like, we want the funk. Like, oh man, like, they were like, you have no idea, I'm just so mad. It's like, because I can't throw a strike anymore. just furious and everything fell apart from that.

Lomotor (01:32:09.249)

you

Lomotor (01:32:14.483)

funny

Lomotor (01:32:18.549)

Huh.

When I first started listening to your podcast, thought it was a made-up. I thought it wasn't your real last name. It seems like a musician would, you know, that's your music persona. I'm Brian Funk. I'm the funky guy.

Brian Funk (01:32:29.151)

Yeah, well, and I resisted that for a long time because of funk music. I don't make funk music and I didn't want to have a preconceived notion. But it's so much easier once I decided to just be it.

Lomotor (01:32:47.061)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:32:50.951)

I don't know. It's kind of weird we have to come up with artist names anyway. You have an artist name? Like, where does that come from? I've never heard that word before. Low motor.

Lomotor (01:33:02.005)

Yeah, I just made it up. just drew a long, long list. Yeah, I just wrote a long list of options. I kind of just tried to throw letters around and then whittle it down to that. And I just liked the look of it. I kind of like how the O's. I like spelling it too, L-O-M-O-T-O-R. Like it just, I don't know. Yeah. And at the time, I was kind of thinking more.

Brian Funk (01:33:03.967)

Just like the album.

Brian Funk (01:33:22.483)

Yeah, they're spaced out like that.

Lomotor (01:33:28.777)

techno-y music wise I thought it kind of looks like a car even. The O's look like wheels. It's kind of cool. It's not really a nature-y thing. Now it's just made up and I like the sound of it.

Brian Funk (01:33:41.533)

Hmm. That's cool. You know, you don't even think about it after the first time you process it. It almost just goes away. That's just what they're called. You know, any artist, you're just... After a while, you don't even realize you're saying it.

Lomotor (01:33:49.355)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:33:57.89)

and Funk Railroad, just talking about funk. What a weird band name, you know, they're just a band. You don't think about it.

Brian Funk (01:34:02.687)

Yeah. Yeah. That's the funny thing about my whole life has been most of the time people show me these or bring them up or sing them at me before I ever hear them. Like, I don't know what they're talking about. I think like somebody called me Grand Funk Railroad before I ever knew what it was. Like, what the hell did you just call me? Like, what? You know, but it's a funny existence, I guess. We all get...

Lomotor (01:34:13.803)

that you don't

That's a weird thing to say.

Brian Funk (01:34:30.897)

little things like that, you know, helps you not take yourself seriously, I guess.

Lomotor (01:34:37.151)

Yeah. I also kind of like just talking about names. I like when there's lore behind a name and it's not so straightforward, right? Like maybe it's annoying to people, right? I've wondered about this name in the album that Capsula had. Like that's hard to spell. Nobody's going to remember how to say it. But I kind of like creating maybe a little mystery or at least that question in people's minds. What does that mean? Maybe that's like putting too much on.

I don't know. To me I prefer that over something that's just called album one or something.

Brian Funk (01:35:12.657)

Yeah. Well, it kind of gives it a world a little bit, you know? Like you said, it's a world. I have no preconceived notions on it. You I'm not connecting it with things I already have experience with. So there's something cool about that. Yeah.

Lomotor (01:35:17.291)

Yeah, right.

Lomotor (01:35:26.038)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:35:30.763)

Yeah, right. Yeah. I think that's it. No, no preconceived notions about what it is. Make it unto itself. Yeah. Right. That's good.

Brian Funk (01:35:38.493)

Yeah, I mean, I really had no idea what I was going to hear when I opened it up, you know, which is cool. You're going fresh.

Brian Funk (01:35:51.314)

I guess we've kind of been hitting on these just sort of by the nature of the conversation. But one of the cool things you sent me was your creative guide. So you have this kind of seven pillars, seven statements here, your creative guide. You got be consistent, be creative for yourself, ride the social media wave with caution, convenience, make it yours. Perfect is the enemy of good. And one song at a time.

How'd you come up with those? I see some of them might have some stories behind them as well. Any ones that you think are especially important or?

Lomotor (01:36:35.073)

Yeah, most of those are just through experience or listening to other people. I think I heard BT on a podcast talking about how he has stations to make everything convenient. It's so easy to... I mean, I do it all the time. I was like, I could record this with the synth over here, but it's turned off. It literally, it's like two buttons to turn on.

And it's just like, I'll just do it in Ableton. Which is what, like, most of what I do are Ableton softsense, and I love that. like, I try to set up everything in the room here to make it as easy as possible to do it. Because if it takes 15 minutes to set up, you're with loss, right? And if you have an idea, you want to do fast, I think you've talked about this too in your room.

make it quick. Everything on this side here I've got on one power strip.

Brian Funk (01:37:34.333)

Hmm, that's fun looking. What do we got? Some petals and... Let's see, something's like a... Hmm.

Lomotor (01:37:40.95)

Yeah, so drum machine, there's a Russian drum machine, some synth and stuff, they all, each synth has its own chord outputting from it. So all I have to do is, I run them all through the pedals, but I'll just plug that one in to the pedals chain, turn it on. It's all in one power strip, so just one on button. My interface is always on anyway, know, and the preamp, and then you're ready to go.

Brian Funk (01:38:00.137)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:38:10.273)

So it's under 10 seconds to get going. think that's the same on the other side, just a different station, right? It's all connected to one power switch, turn that power switch on and you can go.

Brian Funk (01:38:15.763)

Yeah, that's...

Brian Funk (01:38:20.212)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:38:25.201)

And we keep like all the mics on the drums and the guitar amps. And I got a template in live that I just opened and it's ready to go. It's already half mixed and we can just record band practice and all of these things around me are ready to go. I've got the like smart outlet things. I think that's what they're called. They're like a little...

Lomotor (01:38:43.029)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:38:53.535)

You plug it into your outlet and then you plug into that. So it's just like a little box, but it's connected to Siri. So I just have to tell her to turn it on. I don't want to say the exact words because she'll, she's very sensitive to that. She's always listening, but, um, I look like, what does it save me?

Lomotor (01:38:57.579)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:39:08.991)

You

Brian Funk (01:39:17.343)

probably 20 seconds and maybe just like bending down on the floor to flip a few switches, it makes a difference. It's just nice to tell it to come on and turn off and then I can just start. Those little things are a lot. mean, micing the drums or just even having the tracks inside the computer, like that could take a while and that's the difference between us recording practice or not.

Lomotor (01:39:19.073)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:39:26.027)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:39:45.974)

Right, yeah, definitely. And that's cumulative too, right? Like, I think if you only do music a little bit, it doesn't make a difference really. But if you're doing music every day, you know, if you have a couple of those conveniences, it does add up, just smooth.

Brian Funk (01:39:47.101)

You know? So, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:40:03.11)

I think so. If you can steal back a minute or two here, there, a few different times every session over the course of a year. I mean, you've got extra bonus sessions basically. And you're yeah. And you're not like, I have this idea. It's great. It's great. hold on. Let me wire everything together. And then what was that idea? that's not a great idea. And you're out of it, you know? So.

Lomotor (01:40:15.211)

Yeah. And then you're just keeping your brain creative instead of thinking about the life. Yeah. Right.

Lomotor (01:40:28.755)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:40:32.466)

Yeah, that's a good one. Convenience.

Lomotor (01:40:35.361)

What else is on the list? consistency too, just doing it. I get up early every morning just to do it. Even if it's a short while, 20 minutes or something, I think it's good to have that routine. Just get used to doing it every day and then a lot of what you produce will probably be stuff you hate. But if doing it every day...

you're just increasing the odds, right? It's that simple. Increasing the odds that you'll create something that you like and can create something more out of it. I'd say probably 90 % of what I'm doing, I don't go back and finish. It's just some live project saved. But then if I hit on something and I'm liking it, this is where the one track principle comes in too is...

Brian Funk (01:41:17.982)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:41:26.785)

Chase that down for as long as you've got the energy to do it. Don't give up halfway through. When you do hit on something you like, finish that and don't leave it in your files for another year or whatever. Finish that song, follow it through, spend the time to finish it. I think you've talked about this too. Then you get in the habit of finishing things also.

Brian Funk (01:41:34.59)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:41:39.816)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:41:53.138)

Yeah, there's a habit to that. Yeah, the longer it sits on the computer, the more likely it is gonna not exist. It's like, what is that? The first 48 hours of a crime or something, right? Like detectives talk about are the most important. It's kind of that way with music too. Like otherwise, you know, the dust settles, the evidence is contaminated and you you don't feel it anymore or another idea came up.

Lomotor (01:41:53.909)

more.

Lomotor (01:42:09.022)

You

Lomotor (01:42:12.353)

you

Lomotor (01:42:16.949)

Red.

Lomotor (01:42:23.733)

Yeah, absolutely.

Brian Funk (01:42:24.114)

Yeah, you have to really push the ideas through as fast as possible, I think. There's some exceptions to that, but it just increases your odds. And I think it's a good way to look at it. It's sort of like a numbers game, just quantity showing up, showing up, showing up. And every once in a while, something gets there.

Lomotor (01:42:44.363)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:42:51.201)

Yeah, you dig through a lot of coal, but then you might hit a diamond now and then.

Brian Funk (01:42:58.994)

Yeah, you gotta show up. Gotta keep doing it. It's so much more free too, because when you have one project, this is the one of the year. It's too precious. It's your artistic statement. There's too much wrapped up into it. If you're just pouring out tracks, you're be like, yeah, sometimes I'm weird. Sometimes I'm silly. Sometimes I don't make sense. Sometimes it's cheesy.

Lomotor (01:43:10.475)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lomotor (01:43:21.697)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (01:43:26.209)

I know some creative people who are worried about all that. They're so good and they're just worried they don't finish anything. For whatever reason it's not good enough. I listen to stuff and don't Yeah, right. Everybody's so worried. I can't put it out. It's not exactly what I want. Sometimes it only comes out. I don't know.

Brian Funk (01:43:39.87)

That's perfect as the enemy of good. You got in there too.

Lomotor (01:43:52.61)

I think that's a way of paralyzing yourself. What's the point of it? Maybe if you want to listen to it for yourself, great, but if you're nervous about releasing it.

Lomotor (01:44:07.615)

That's what I'm talking about.

Brian Funk (01:44:11.656)

You know, the things that I've labored over the most, I think have the least amount of longevity with me because I've already put in so much time with it. So familiar with it. It doesn't surprise you anymore. But the things that I kind of power out and then I can hear it a month later and be like, yeah, this song. And like, that was cool. What happened here?

Lomotor (01:44:20.907)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:44:40.718)

Those tend to just stay interesting longer. Maybe there's just a kind of limit to how much you can listen to any piece of music. If you're going to labor over it, you'll get there sooner. Whereas if it's a fast thing, you come back to it, it's always fresh.

Lomotor (01:44:51.648)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:45:01.109)

have both. I have more fun doing the ones that come quickly, That's the most fun I get.

But I have one track that I can think of in particular, Be in a Bag, where I really liked, I knew I was like, this is a good synth line, I wanna make a cool song out of this. And I recorded a Yellowjacket, a Ground Hornet was in the house. I caught it in a brown bag. I was flying all around the bag as I was taking it out. I had my phone, was like, this sounds wicked, this sounds really cool. It's like this weird crackly, buzzy noise. So recorded that and let it go outside.

But I had this song that had the synth and the matte sound. And I spent, I don't know how many hours and hours laboring over trying to get, I was like, I knew there's something here. I just, like, the mix is wrong or the drums aren't right. I just kept going back to it over at different periods. Finally, like, I still like that song. It's one of my favorites and people connect to that one. They like that one too. But it took a lot. And some, and you never know. That's the hard part I think about.

me anyway being a musician is is this worth it? I spend so many hours on this stupid thing. You know and then you get, you go ahead.

Brian Funk (01:46:08.934)

Yeah. That one's cool. I have a sample of a bee inside a...

It was like a, I think it was a Chinese food soup container, like a little plastic like quart. You know, he was in down here and I caught him in it and he's like, inside the thing and I sampled them and I've had the intention of putting that inside the sampler and seeing what I come up with. So I saw that. was like, no way. Same idea.

Lomotor (01:46:23.44)

huh. Yeah. huh.

Lomotor (01:46:35.617)

That's funny. Yeah, I wonder what kind of tamber the Chinese food container has versus a brown paper bag.

Brian Funk (01:46:42.49)

Yeah, I bet it's different, you know, instead of like hitting the paper. But again, there's like a story, right? Like, and that was an accident. The bee was in your house and that was, and the point of you catching them wasn't to sample them. You're just probably trying to just be humane and let them free. And then you realized, cool. Look at this. Like you sort of listened to the universe.

Lomotor (01:47:05.332)

Uh-huh.

Lomotor (01:47:09.761)

I've had to say that to many people on Instagram. Yes, the bee is okay. I let it go. didn't, yeah. I've got a couple of those like, yeah, you're a killer.

Brian Funk (01:47:15.804)

Yeah. You animal, you monster. Don't you know bees are endangered and if we didn't have bees.

Lomotor (01:47:25.057)

Like I know, I know, but it's really hard to put that in a, you know, an Instagram story cover. Like this song is called Be in a Bag, but I didn't kill the bee. Yes, I really value animals and I didn't, please just be nice.

Brian Funk (01:47:31.378)

Yeah, right.

Brian Funk (01:47:36.542)

Yeah. That's pretty funny. Well, hey, that's what you do. You stir up a little controversy once in a while.

Lomotor (01:47:47.873)

Yeah, yeah, yes.

Brian Funk (01:47:52.262)

So I want to be a little mindful of your time here. Really enjoy talking to you. We should tell people, of course, like they can find your music at your own bandcamp. Apple Music, Spotify, all that stuff, Low Motor. You've got the new record June 6th is the date, right? Coming out June 6th. So that'll be pretty soon. Something for people to look forward to. It's really cool. I'm...

Lomotor (01:48:13.249)

June 6th.

Brian Funk (01:48:20.835)

I'm in love with it. I'm really enjoying it. It's inspiring too. And it's fresh sounding and all kinds of stuff that I'm enjoying about music these days. So I think, I think people will get a kick out of it and your workflow is really cool and different and it comes through. It's really, it's worth all the effort you're putting in, I gotta say.

Lomotor (01:48:45.281)

Well, thanks so much, Brian. This has really been a thrill to talk to you. I know it sounds weird, but I have been listening to your podcast for a long time. I was kind of shocked when you like, yeah, let's talk. I feel like I'm meeting a celebrity. It's been a lot of fun to talk to you. But you're a very down to earth grounded kind of guy. it's been a real honor to have this conversation. Thank you for listening, and thanks for having me on.

Brian Funk (01:48:55.643)

Yeah, thank you for that. That's great.

Brian Funk (01:49:15.623)

Yeah, well thanks for being on. Hopefully this is not the end of it all, only the beginning, you know?

Lomotor (01:49:21.857)

Yeah, let's definitely stay in touch. I'd love to.

Brian Funk (01:49:25.021)

Cool. Well guys, go check out Low Motor, L-O-M-O-T-O-R. You can go to lowmotor.net. You can go to Instagram and YouTube. I'll put all the links in the show notes so you guys can see them. Check them out. It's doing cool stuff. Thanks for listening. Have a good day.

Lomotor (01:49:42.017)

Thanks. Bye.

]]>Turning Nature into Music with Lomotor: Music Production Podcast #426The First Light - New AlbumMusicBrian FunkSat, 06 Jun 2026 14:46:26 +0000https://brianfunk.com/blog/the-first-light52b0b517e4b01342092bbf99:53e0193ae4b0ba845c2a6667:6a243146ea61607773f557d7

The songs on The First Light were recorded at the moment I finished writing them on acoustic guitar. It's the first time anyone, including me, ever got to hear the songs.

Each song was written and recorded in a single session. Some songs were done on a single microphone, others had one on the vocal and one on the guitar. It's the songs in their purest form. They aren't stripped down versions because there was nothing yet to strip down!

Often the meaning of a song changes as we spend more time with them. Even the next day, we might feel differently than we did while writing. These songs are the original sentiments and feelings, without editing or rethinking. The performances are not yet rehearsed or calculated, and therefore, at times, a little shaky! But they are real, honest, and sincere.

In an age where art is more refined, polished, and generated than ever, I hope you enjoy the raw humanity of these recordings.

Written and Recorded by Brian Funk
Mastered by Animus Invidious
Cover Painting by Thomas Gambino III

Spotify Apple Music BandCamp Vinyl and CD

YouTube Video Playlist:

]]>The First Light - New Album