This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Make Your Own Reverbs.

• Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

• Ask - Participate in the discussion and ask questions.

• Do - Apply the lesson in a short activity. Get feedback and ask follow-up questions.

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Dennis and I spoke in depth about his work at Eastman School of Music. We shared thoughts on finishing projects and overcoming creative challenges. Dennis reflected on his work at Ableton and how it has prepared him for his newest chapter in cutting edge music education.

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Links:

• Dennis's Website - https://dennisdesantis.com

• University of Rochester's Music Creation and Technology Program - https://www.esm.rochester.edu/go/soundarts/music-technology/

• Making Music 74 Creative Strategies for Electronic Music Producters by Dennis DeSantis - https://makingmusic.ableton.com

• Learning Music - https://learningmusic.ableton.com

• Learning Synths - https://learningsynths.ableton.com

• Dennis's Max for Live Devices - https://dennisdesantis.com/max-for-live-devices

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.295)

Dennis, welcome to the Music Production Podcast. So good to have you.

Dennis (00:08.814)

Yeah, good to be here. Nice to see you again.

Brian Funk (00:11.331)

You too. It's been a little while now. I think maybe Loop in twenty eighteen might have been the last time we crossed paths somewhere around there, but

Dennis (00:20.76)

The one in LA? We're where you at that? Okay, yeah, that must have been it then.

Brian Funk (00:22.221)

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Yeah. That was a good time until the the fires came and made it a little interesting. But what a what a great event, what a great gathering. T anytime people I'm sure you experience this in your in your classrooms, you know, just create creative people with the similar goals and interests. It just seems to elevate everybody and there's something in the air that's really nice to be around.

Dennis (00:30.488)

Yeah, that was wild.

Dennis (00:51.042)

Yeah, loop was pretty special. And I I'm you're right. I'm excited to kind of rediscover that now that I'm in classrooms with people again. There's also something about like the physicality of people in one room. I don't know what that is. It's different than the online thing, which is great because then you can meet with people who aren't near you physically. But there is something kind of special about people in a physical space. I don't know what that is. Well, part of it is like lower latency. That might help.

Brian Funk (01:07.481)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:17.901)

Yeah.

That's true. Somet sometimes maybe from doing these Zoom type calls that I do all the time I in my regular conversations I wait longer than normal before replying.

Dennis (01:21.688)

Ha ha.

Dennis (01:30.658)

Right. Like conditioned to respond to that latency. Right.

Brian Funk (01:35.467)

Yeah. So you've just completed first year, right, at the Eastman School of Music and the University of Rochester.

Dennis (01:43.938)

That's right. Yeah, I started here I think technically my contract started in July of twenty twenty five. So yeah, it's just been a almost exactly one year now.

Brian Funk (01:53.679)

Hm. And I think it's really cool what you guys are doing and it's kind of I guess academia realizing that it's not all just about stuff that happened in the past and looking in the future. So you've got music creation and technology as a major now.

Dennis (02:13.772)

Yeah, I mean it's it's a cool thing for a conservatory. In defense of the way conservatories have have done it, there's always been I mean here and at every other conservatory too, there's always been composition programs, new music ensembles. So it isn't strictly about the past. It's also about the future. But what's exciting about this program is it's it's branching into some different potential futures as well.

Yeah, which is which is very exciting for me and I hope it's exciting for for the place and the incoming students as well.

Brian Funk (02:49.581)

think it's gotta be because I teach high school English so I'm around a lot of young people who some of them are in band, they're doing the kind of traditional thing, but there are other ones that are wanna make beats. They're playing around with band lab or FL Studio or some app they have on their phone and there's really nothing there for them. There's not a lot that they can go into. It's starting to happen a little bit, but

It reminds me of how I felt as a kid. I s didn't have any of that high school band training. I was played electric guitar when I was fourteen and wanted to be in rock bands. And it was my life at that point. It was everything to me. But at school, the best I had was the talent show that we did every year. They hoped our band would make it and we didn't the first year. But it's nice to see that there's some doors opening for people that have some different angles into music.

Dennis (03:46.274)

Yeah, I think that's a nice that's a nice way to put it. Like different doors, different angles. I mean, i the reality is that I expect that a lot of the students who come into this program, I mean, and I'm speaking about in future tense because we don't actually have students yet. We won't admit the first class of students until fall of twenty twenty seven. So between now and the end of this year is when students will apply to enter next fall, not this coming fall.

But I expect that at least for a while and maybe forever, a good portion of the incoming students will be exactly like the ones that you described. They're people who are like

Deeply talented, deeply committed musicians, but in a way that doesn't involve high school music preparation, private lessons on a conventional instrument, etc. At the same time, I think there will be a strong contingent of students who are quite similar to the students that are at conservatories now. They've been studying an instrument their whole lives, playing at the highest levels, playing in all-state ensembles and things like this, but who have also found a path for creative expression.

Through music technology. So I think what's exciting is to think that the incoming cohort will likely be a mix of these two different types of students and then watching the way they bounce ideas off of each other is going to be really cool. But of course, it's a huge unknown. Like we don't really know who they're going to be until they start applying.

Brian Funk (05:10.05)

Yeah.

Right. That's a great point, how they might interact with each other, coming from a very technical background, classically trained to somebody that's more working on feel and intuition.

Dennis (05:25.803)

Right. And also the way they'll interact with this the other students in other programs who are already here. Like I'm I've been using this analogy with people around here a bit, but I'm super excited for the first ensemble that gets put together here that's like a kid with a laptop and a Baroque violinist and a jazz singer or something. Like those students are gonna feed off each other in really interesting ways and

Brian Funk (05:46.411)

Yeah.

Dennis (05:51.276)

That's what makes programs like this kind of exciting, but it's also what make, it's what made music school exciting for me too, was the way students from very different backgrounds and very different musical interests, but operating at a very high level, could come together and make something that was like better than the sum of the parts.

Brian Funk (06:05.902)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (06:10.582)

Yeah. That is exciting. I I bet there are a lot of people like that out there. I have a nephew who's going to the University of Denver, for tuba and he's deep into that and

He's learning Ableton Live. So it's funny to talk to him because he has an understanding of theory and he reads music. I don't read music. So he knows some of this stuff. And and then I talk to him about Ableton Live. And we have this cool back and forth. And it's interesting how he sees it and how he looks at it compared to how someone like me does. And it it just

Dennis (06:27.405)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (06:50.774)

And I've always said this to the people in my other classes too, like you're whatever you already know is going to feed into what you're learning here. If you have some background as a vocalist or a percussionist learning how to produce music and you might not consider yourself maybe as a drummer or someone that might use a drum machine, but you might find that you really take to it because you have some of that understanding to bring.

Dennis (07:14.313)

And vice versa. I mean, the students who come in with strong music sort of music production, whatever that means, but strong sort of technology backgrounds are also gonna get something interesting by seeing how those ideas are represented in things like notation or or how some some things that we might take for granted as being

music tech specific also exist in other centuries represented in different ways. You know, a lot of things sort of have different user interfaces, but are actually expressions of a kind of deeper, more fundamental musical idea, which I think is is kind of exciting.

Brian Funk (08:00.205)

Mm.

Dennis (08:00.684)

And then you see that from multiple perspectives. Like you maybe you were playing around with these ideas in tech, but then you realize that they existed in medieval music, or vice versa. Maybe you were playing the violin your whole life and then suddenly you're you're trying to understand how things that you were doing with your violin can be expressed in a tool like Ableton Live.

And of course it's not all that. It's not like there's a one-to-one correspondence between old music and contemporary electronic music, but there certainly are ideas that are represented in multiple ways.

Brian Funk (08:33.652)

It is neat when some of that comes up. Stuff that you think is kinda newfangled technology and then you realize, wow, look at that. I think there was a

Dennis (08:41.901)

I mean that was a huge go ahead.

Brian Funk (08:43.982)

Yeah, I was I was just to give an example, I was there was a Max for Live device, I think it was called foreplay maybe. And it was the concept of the fugue with the repr repeating melody and th but it did it with slower playheads, faster playheads all playing the same notes. And it was like, yeah, it's like what I learned in that Bach class I took at college.

Dennis (08:54.369)

Mm-hmm.

Dennis (09:05.311)

Exactly. Yeah. And a lot of these ideas they get sort of repeated and recycled, but also kind of reimagined through new new lenses and new ways of of interfacing with music. But of but again, yeah, like you said often they're they they're expressions of something that's sort of deeper.

That have historical precedence. But then if you can come in and now see it from both sides, maybe you can come up with a way of rethinking this in yet a third way, which is maybe a synthesis of the two or

creative reinterpretation or something. And that's what's exciting about, well, it's one of the many things that's exciting about it to me. Like where are people going to take this stuff once they have a deeper toolkit expressed across centuries and traditions and interfaces? And when I talk about interface here, I'm talking about sort of Ableton Live as an interface versus notation as an interface, for example.

Brian Funk (10:03.053)

Hmm. Right. It it is interesting too, young people just they grew up with this stuff. They have a kind of innate understanding of digital interfaces and how things connect. So I find with the younger students there's a lot less explaining about how to put things together. They just like, yeah, okay. They kind of go right into it. They're not afraid of it. It's not as intimidating.

Dennis (10:30.858)

Yeah, that's totally right. I taught a class last semester which was primarily, it was exclusively for graduate students. And most of them were graduate students in the film scoring program. And many of them had, well, they all had really deep experience and chops with digital audio workstations. Like the technology was not

an issue for them at all, but they had very different levels of experience with popular musics, hip-hop, electronic music. Many of them were using the DAW as a way to do sort of orchestral mock-ups.

And their their musical exposure was largely to the classical tradition, the film scoring orchestral tradition. But then for some of them, of course, they'd been growing up listening to pop and hip-hop their whole lives. But for both sides of this equation, the tech was never the problem. We didn't have to do introduction to digital audio workstations. Like they had that stuff solid.

Brian Funk (11:32.171)

Hmm. Yeah, those concepts. That's great. That gives you just kind of skip over that. Okay, let's get into it.

Dennis (11:34.9)

It was great.

Dennis (11:40.16)

Right. Exactly.

Brian Funk (11:43.276)

So you come from that more classical background, you've got that experience. how did you make your way into all of the digital electronic world that you wound up in for so long?

Dennis (11:59.565)

In a lot of ways I actually kind of made my way back to it. So yeah, I mean I have a bunch of degrees in in composition and music theory and all that. But my first interest in music making was electronics. I w I'm dating myself a little bit here, but like I had a DX7 as a child and

Brian Funk (12:20.023)

Cool.

Dennis (12:22.08)

learned my way through interfacing that with an Apple II Plus and running like basic MIDI sequencing. And I was really into music like Tangerine Dream in the 80s. So electronic music was very much kind of in the in the bedrock of what I was doing from a even before I really got interested in taking the

the conservatory study of classical music seriously. I was kind of a late comer actually to notated music. I played in school bands and stuff in high school, but I kind of faked my way through through a lot of the trickier like I didn't really study theory until I got to college.

Brian Funk (12:51.18)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (13:00.396)

Yeah.

Dennis (13:08.218)

but then kind of ate it up. I mean, I was really excited by mostly by putting names to things, to sounds that I heard, like, chords can be represented using Roman numerals, and chord progressions can be represented using progressions of Roman numerals. And this is an interesting way of exploring these sounds that had kind of been in the music that I was listening to anyway, and then getting deeper into how to express that.

stuff in notation. But yeah, in many ways it was like getting back to electronic music rather than getting to it through classical study.

Brian Funk (13:47.499)

Right. Wow. Were you programming your DX seven?

Dennis (13:51.595)

I mean, as much as anybody was, you know, it was a bit of a I'm not sure that was such a healthy environment to start with as a fourteen-year-old or something, just because interface design was not at the forefront of those people's minds. Like well, i it clearly was, but it was a very different approach to interface design. Like it was the opposite of one knob per function. It was like one knob, period. You know, the the DX7 had a data entry slider, one.

Brian Funk (13:59.2)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (14:15.883)

Yeah. That's slider. Yeah.

Dennis (14:20.478)

And I think increment and decrement buttons, but they were it was completely modal. Like what that slider controlled was the last thing you selected, which is a pretty wild way to learn your way through synthesis. But it's it was what I had. And so I certainly played with programming, but I had no idea what I was doing for for a long time. It wasn't until I really started studying, you know.

What actually does an envelope do? What does an LFO do? That I was able to make things with a little bit more intention. But yeah, if I could go back and do it, you know, with a with something that had more controls, I probably would have a very different relationship with synthesis than I do now, where I I came to those kinds of more hands-on interfaces much later.

Brian Funk (15:09.889)

Yeah, that's a notoriously brutal synth to program. I mean FM synthesis on its own, but I guess it was also that time with technology where those kind of membrane buttons were all the rave, so they felt futuristic and it incorporated a little bit of that. But

Dennis (15:27.764)

Yeah, for sure. I mean it was a kind of retro I remember thinking that it felt futuristic and it didn't occur to me at the time that one slider was not necessarily so ergonomic.

Brian Funk (15:38.379)

Yeah. But you make a good point. it was what you had. I think when back in those days especially when you couldn't just download a new plugin or you couldn't get something from Amazon and send it back if you don't like it, you you stuck with what you had no matter what and you really learned that stuff. You had you got a deep relationship with it.

Dennis (16:01.654)

For sure. And I mean part of part of it was that I was constrained financially. Like I wouldn't have been able to afford more. And part of it was that we were constrained technologically. As you said, there was no internet, there was no downloading of anything, and software was at the point then where it was like MIDI or nothing. You know, there was no you couldn't record audio into the computer. There just wasn't.

Brian Funk (16:08.288)

Yeah.

Dennis (16:30.665)

That wasn't possible. There was no digital up to audio conversion available at a consumer price, you know. I think. I don't know when the first digital recordings were happening, but they they weren't available it wasn't available to me in the 80s. So yeah, part of it was necess it was necessity a along a few different axes. And I think that you there is something to be said for that even now though. Like I think, you know, the gear acquisition syndrome.

Brian Funk (16:44.918)

Right.

Dennis (17:00.445)

is a problem. You can convince yourself that the thing you need is like one more EQ rather than digging a little deeper into the one or seven that you already have. And yeah, and it was, you know, it didn't occur to me at the time that it was kind of painful, like you said, to to program the DX7. It was just that's what you did. That's what I had. Right.

Brian Funk (17:21.344)

That's how did it. Yeah. I think it's one of the big problems we all face as the modern musician is there is just too much stuff. It was a lot easier to create something when all I had was a four track and a guitar. Like not a lot of choices. Just now start worrying about the actual music compared to now where what genre, what style, what plug-in, what samples.

Dennis (17:49.386)

I mean you can choose to to restrict yourself as well though, and that can be really powerful, you know. But it I think for me the biggest the biggest eye-opener there was identifying that gear and music were not actually the same thing. And that you could make choices about a restricted palette and make endless amounts of music using that restricted palette.

I think there's something there's a bit of a at least among like gear-focused people, it they it it's possible to sort of look down your nose at somebody who says, you know what, I I'm gonna use this same four plugins for this entire record. But that's actually no different than what you would have done in a hardware studio if all you had were four devices. I mean, if you look at

sort of foundational techno and house records, for example. These were people with limited means and extremely limited gear making whole records or whole maybe like essentially making whole genres out of what they happen to have in the studio. And there was certainly no shame in that then and there's no reason for there to be shame in it now. Like having 800 synths at your disposal doesn't mean you need to use them all.

Brian Funk (18:57.216)

Yeah.

Dennis (19:12.457)

You also don't need to delete them all, but for me, it's it's been very helpful to sort of separate creative practice from tinkering with tools. Both are like fun and rewarding, but they aren't necessarily the same thing. That being said, tinkering with tools often will spark something that turns into a musical idea, but then I have to consciously make the shift and say, okay, we're done tinkering with tools now. This particular palette.

has triggered a musical thing, let's stick with the musical thing.

Brian Funk (19:46.109)

I I think the same way and I always prioritize the music making because I think that's harder to come by to get the exciting idea. It's a lot there's a lot of fun you can have tinkering and you I can sink into that easy, I guess, because there's no risk to it where there is with if I decide I'm gonna make music today, like I don't know if it's gonna be good.

Dennis (20:10.441)

Yeah, and then you're you're really kind of it's very bold and courageous to make a piece of music that you then put out into the world. Because then you're you're expressing something, you're sharing something that you consider finished. If everything stays in sketch phase, you're you're there's no commitment. You're not committing to a thing which someone might then critique.

I mean someone could critique your sketch anyway if you share it on social media or something, but you can always fall back on the knowledge that this wasn't really the thing, an experiment.

Brian Funk (20:44.788)

Yeah. Right. Yeah, and and I I know I struggle with that. A lot of people struggle with that. Sometimes the things I'm finishing, when you put it out, it it feels like this is me as as an artist. This is my whole representation of who I am. And it might just be the one little slice that got finished. And it's such a small portion and the pressure of having that be everything.

that you are in musical form is is sometimes prevents you from doing it at all.

Dennis (21:15.773)

Y Yeah.

Dennis (21:21.139)

And I don't know how much of this is internal or a manifestation of something that comes from the outside. I mean, if you're an artist with a known sound and then you do something that's radically different than that, a fan base will have a reaction to that. I mean, I'm trying to imagine Autecker making like a pop record. What would happen? Like

People would kind of lose their minds and they would search for meaning and maybe they just wanted to make a pop record.

Brian Funk (21:46.678)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (21:54.753)

Right.

Dennis (21:58.879)

But you know, for I think for everybody there's this sense, like you said, like this is me. The thing means something. It's an expression of some kind of inner state or emotional whatever. Or maybe it just isn't. Maybe it's like these were cool sounds that happen to be put together in a cool way. there's a chord progression I like. here's a rhythmic trick that I thought was cool. They might not be, it might not be deeper than that.

But learning to let go of that is a challenge. And I don't claim that I'm good at it. Like I don't I often overthink.

Brian Funk (22:30.419)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I do too. And I like making music that is sometimes just an exploration of a thought or even like a character or or an exaggeration of how I am and how I feel or or just totally made up. And I I definitely don't like the psychoanalytical microscope being put on me for that.

Dennis (22:50.761)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (23:01.523)

Whatever that idea might have been. sometimes it's it's just the result of the play of that day. my my remedy to that is just try to do as much as possible and kind of flood the flood the stream and this way you never know what someone's gonna pick out. Fortunately most people don't pick any of it, so most of it goes unheard.

Dennis (23:22.014)

Yeah.

Dennis (23:27.402)

Right, sure. Yeah, and then you've you've built this entire kind of inner narrative and conversation and dialogue with with a listener that was entirely in your own head. And that's probably d damaging. It's probably damaging to productivity, but it's probably also damaging to mental health, like really overthinking.

Brian Funk (23:38.739)

Right.

Dennis (23:50.411)

can can get in your way. At the same time though, you want, you want to have a filter, right? You don't want to put things into the world that you don't think are expressions of at least quality. Or maybe you do. Like maybe there's maybe that's an experiment as well. Like I'm going to deliberately make the worst thing I can. I I don't want to judge, you know, if there's a if there's a valid reason for that, do it.

Brian Funk (24:16.991)

Yeah. Yeah. I that's funny you say that. I I've had that conversation in regards to content creation where there's when you start getting into the numbers and the algorithms reaction, which is really I guess just the audience watching or not, but you can find yourself doing things that maybe you don't really enjoy as much because it's gonna work and then next thing you know you have to start

Dennis (24:25.375)

Mm.

Brian Funk (24:45.567)

doing that thing now because that's what people expect of you. And that can be probably the the worst curse of all is now y yeah, you maybe you found something but now you have to do it and you don't enjoy it.

Dennis (24:58.164)

But maybe there's a w maybe there's a way to make that yet a third thing. Like we were talking about the the duality of tinkering versus music making. Maybe there's a way that content creation in the s social media algorithmic concept that you're using it can be yet a third thing and not an expression of

Tinkering or music making. Like if you need to do a thing because it's part of your income stream, maybe there's a switch you can flick in your head that says, yeah, I'm clocking into my job now. And separate that somehow from like the real creative practice.

Brian Funk (25:32.97)

Right.

Dennis (25:42.058)

There's no shame in that. Of course, it's one person and one identity, and then eventually it becomes complicated, either for an audience to sort out or for you to sort out or both. But I wonder if there's a psychological trick there to treating that as a separate stream of identity.

Brian Funk (26:03.167)

Yeah, I think so. a lot of musicians are kind of cobbling together their careers. They're doing a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and some of it is probably more what they wanna be doing and some of it might be a little more of the clocking in to the job type work. And I think that's great because now you're doing what you wanna be doing. You're using your

Dennis (26:18.921)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (26:28.159)

whether it's your creativity, your technical abilities, to pay the bills and allow you to then have the fun of doing the stuff you wanna be doing maybe a little bit more. And I think there's also a lot of people that make an art out of that part of it too. That seems to be I think the people that stick around the longest are the ones that find that nice balance where even the clocking in is sort of an artistic expression on some level.

Dennis (26:55.988)

For sure, for sure. Yeah, I mean

Thought I had a thought. I don't really have a thought, Harry. I think you expressed it. You expressed it well.

Brian Funk (27:04.123)

Mm-hmm.

I I'd have to imagine you probably run into that with students at the school, especially as time goes on. Where they if th especially if they're coming from different worlds and bringing all this stuff together and interacting with others, there's gotta be some interesting things that the young folks are gonna figure out, carving new paths.

Dennis (27:31.4)

I think that's totally true. I mean one one thing that that I noticed most of my students for the class that I taught last semester were are young early career film composers.

And in that world, you're recognizing that often what you're doing is taking direction, right? There are people above you in the hierarchy of making the film who are ultimately responsible for signing off on what you do. They're gonna have influences and creative insights and ideas that may or may not match what you're doing, but you're it's a gig. You're doing it because it's the job.

And how much you get to express your own creativity in that domain is sort of to be determined on a gig-by-gig basis. You know, if you get a job doing a score for a director who has temporary music and they want that sound, and it's very different than the kind of music that you want to make, your ability to execute that music.

is the thing that's gonna keep you on the job or not. And then it's up to you whether that's the job you want.

Brian Funk (28:44.682)

Mm.

Dennis (28:49.289)

But for early career composers in that world, you know, you might not have a lot of choice. You might need the work that will eventually, if everything goes right, spin out into a place where you're being hired for your voice rather than to fill a role.

Brian Funk (28:55.145)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:06.438)

Mm-hmm. Start to make a name for yourself in what you're doing.

Dennis (29:10.001)

Yeah, and then and then the more you do that, the more you can exhibit your own sound. You the more you can present what it is that you uniquely bring to the table. And then you start getting hired for that.

Brian Funk (29:15.85)

Mm.

Brian Funk (29:22.684)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's that's a pretty cool place to wind up where we want your music in this film. We w because of how you do your thing. But there's I know I've spoken to a lot of people that do film or even commercial work that

Dennis (29:27.881)

For sure. Right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:43.196)

almost find that to be such a relief to get that direction, to say, We need this kind of song and I've had people say to me, I don't know how anyone does any music without that. There's too many choices. I need that narrowed down for me. They thrive in it.

Dennis (29:56.67)

Yeah, for sure. That's a great it's a great creative constraint. Absolutely. Yeah, that's right. I hadn't really thought about that. But of course, w w if the if the palette is completely blank and you can do anything you want, you're you're responsible for making all the decisions. Which is why sometimes it's incredibly hard to do that. But if somebody says, No, I need this and it needs to be four minutes long, and maybe the most important constraint is the deadline, like I need it by tomorrow.

Brian Funk (30:23.572)

Yeah.

Dennis (30:26.459)

then you you have a lot of parameters that are already defined for you. And you're right, it can make it much easier to work.

Brian Funk (30:33.256)

Hmm. That's something with my class, my sampling class that I try to communicate a little bit like

I like to leave it open a little bit. Hey, look, if you are working on something already and this technique that we're talking about this week kind of fits and you wanna kinda shimmy that into the assignment, I'm all for it. But at the same time I'm also sort of saying, But keep in mind if this was your directive from your job and your gig is to make this thing, you don't get to do that. So I I do sort of leave it up to them, kinda considering what they're trying to get out of the course.

So that yeah, if you're looking for that kind of work where you're gonna be hired to do a specific type of thing, then follow these directions closely. But if you're doing this 'cause you want to expand your own creativity and expression and make your own albums and then okay. We can be a little more flexible.

Dennis (31:25.789)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dennis (31:38.121)

I think for a young person, there's a lot of power in trying on as many different things as you can. Even if you think you know what it is that you want to do, doing like the opposite of that for some amount of time is just tools in the toolkit. And then later, maybe you'll have a chance to pull one of those tools out and dust it off a little bit, and it will be completely applicable for some new situation.

Brian Funk (31:45.786)

Mm-hmm.

Dennis (32:08.034)

I mean the worst case scenario is that you never do it at all. You never use that thing again. The best case scenario is like 100% inf efficiency, I guess. So every single thing that you learn is like immediately applicable to all of your work forever, but that's not realistic either. More realistic is you try a thing.

Brian Funk (32:27.775)

Right.

Dennis (32:31.113)

And it changes you and the way you think in ways that are maybe not immediately applicable, but then sometime later you realize, wait, I actually know how to do this thing, which is perfectly usable in this context. And I wouldn't have had it otherwise because it involved doing something that at the time was kind of painful. I don't know. There's like a there's an exercise or sports metaphor in here probably about pushing muscles beyond their.

Brian Funk (32:58.666)

Right.

Dennis (32:58.889)

Of comfort and then, but then they're stronger. I don't know, there's metaphors for all this kind of thing. But when I was, yeah. Right. And but then maybe it balances you in some way that you were unaware of before. And I remember this from my undergraduate, like doing certain assignments that I was like, This is this is painful. Like I I hate this music. I never want to make something that sounds like this. But then

Brian Funk (33:04.82)

Sure, type of workout where you've never used that type of muscle. Yeah.

Dennis (33:27.803)

It's in the tool bag. You get it then. Or maybe even better, you discover something in it that you thought you hated, but which is actually kind of amazing. And then you can synthesize that into your into your techniques and even into your listening that broadens you in a in a more general purpose way.

Brian Funk (33:29.695)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (33:51.358)

Hmm. Yeah, I think that's man, I think everything in my life that I've ever become interested in was sort of a surprise. I didn't know I was gonna I I think back to I think I was in seventh grade taking a general music course in school that I hated. I absolutely hated. It was I I was like, I'm never gonna need this. I don't care, I'm not interested and the way it was taught was

not really to get kids into music. But two years later I was playing the guitar and it was the only thing I cared about anymore. So it was I never would have expected that. And it might have just been the exposure method, the the way you were introduced to it.

Dennis (34:39.229)

And then did you find that there were things from the general music class which were applicable later?

Brian Funk (34:46.172)

Yeah, actually I hate to admit it. But there was just the discussion I remember of duple and triple meter. I I actually remember thinking that was just something why am I learning this? And then learning guitar, learning songs and realizing like, this is I'm counting in threes now instead of fours and then trying to figure out what that was all about.

Dennis (34:56.627)

Sure.

Dennis (35:14.407)

I mean I think I think one of the things that helps to differentiate kind of good, I hate to effective musical educ I don't want to judge anything, but I find that music education tends to be effective when it's grounded in music rather than in sort of extra musical expressions of an idea. Like if if

The duple-triple thing didn't make sense for you until you started learning songs. But the learning songs could have happened as part of the initial introduction. Like, here are some examples of duple and triple in music that you might know. Now you have a you have a real-world expression of this thing, which is otherwise like an abstraction. And then it becomes real for people, right? And then you see, this actually is a thing.

Brian Funk (35:56.724)

Right.

Dennis (36:10.075)

And without a doubt, that's always been the most those are the lessons that have stuck with me the most. Also in music tech, like

Don't just tell me what an LFO is. Show me an amazing example of something fluctuating in a periodic way in a piece of music that I can then go back and listen to. And then I make the connection between the abstract technicality, whether it's a music theory thing or a technical thing, and its application in real music. That just always has sat for me so much better.

Brian Funk (36:25.064)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (36:45.351)

Right. 'Cause it has a purpose now. I find that's a lot of what I what I'm trying to do with students is I want to have fun first and enjoy the process. And then when they say, Hey, why's that bass going whoa whoa whoa whoa And I was like, you've just discovered LFO and now we can talk about how that's modulating the filter and

Dennis (37:07.005)

Right.

Brian Funk (37:12.005)

suddenly that stuff becomes interesting whereas if it's like, Okay guys, before you even touch the synthesizer we're gonna talk about oscillators and you wanna hear the cool noise first.

Dennis (37:20.125)

Right. Yeah, if you start with a yeah, if you start with a signal flow flow diagram, it's probably already lost. But if you start with a beautiful sound and then sort of reverse or back up into how you might make something like that, then I I feel like it's always more effective.

Brian Funk (37:29.022)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (37:41.351)

Yeah, the play part is nice. before the technical, the history, all the other stuff.

Dennis (37:51.175)

Yeah. You can always get there. You just have to give students a a reason to care.

Brian Funk (38:00.977)

I think that kind of approach helps you enjoy music and a lot of the process on so many different levels. And I'll I'll plug your book for a second. I got it right here. You're making music, which is such a great book because it's so practical. but I remember there was a chapter in there about listening to music you don't like and trying to find something about it that you can take away from it. And

For me this happened as I was getting into production and recording and I wasn't really interested in pop music for say, my own enjoyment. But when I listened to it from a production angle, I was like, wow, there's lot of really crazy stuff going on here and how does it sound so slick and clean and neat or all those things start becoming interesting. And

through that kind of lens, it's you you get a kind of I guess those things like the duple triple meter, they become interesting now. And it doesn't matter so much whether you like it from that initial kind of listener perspective, but just from the creation, the how to, how did they do that kind of way of thinking.

Dennis (39:22.77)

Yeah. I mean th the the best case scenario is that you find something to like in all music, which is probably not realistic. For most people there are just there's like an inherent visceral attraction or repulsion to things, which is not it's not necessary to overcome and

It's fine. But I think there's always something to learn from anything you hear. So if you find yourself a captive audience, for example, you're you there's music happening in a public environment that you can't escape. Right. There's two ways that you might respond to that. One might be to shut it out or like be enraged, and the other might be to be like, okay, here I am, I'm stuck.

Brian Funk (39:55.561)

Can't get away.

Dennis (40:06.727)

What can I learn from this? What's going on in this music? Like be able to do a little bit of analysis, whether it's sound analysis or rhythmic analysis or harmonic analysis, you know, how does how do these chords work? What's that sound? If it's acoustic, how do they make this? Does it sound like it's in a closed space or a far space? I mean simple things, but you everything can become a learning experience.

Brian Funk (40:24.157)

Mm.

Brian Funk (40:35.783)

Yeah, especially because music isn't something you can't close your ears and turn it off like you can close your eyes and or not taste the food. It it it's coming to you no matter what.

Dennis (40:46.439)

Right.

And even if it's not conventional music, like I love these videos that show up sometimes that are this refrigerator made the most beautiful ambient record I've ever heard. It's true, like environmental sound can be so amazing. And it it become, you know, there's a lot of music that makes use of found sound or field recordings or environmental sound. But when you're in an environment, you're hearing something.

Brian Funk (40:56.505)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (41:04.872)

Mm-hmm.

Dennis (41:16.454)

Which is why we kinda lose our minds in anechoic chambers, because there's nothing to hear and so you start hearing your own body, which is disconcerting, 'cause we're not used to that, right?

Brian Funk (41:24.061)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (41:29.925)

Yeah. It's proof there's like music everywhere, really. if you hear it as music, if you hear it at the sound as something interesting. I I was at that the Ableton headquarters in LA and Pasadena, doing a workshop last year. And we were the whole premise was to finish music. Bring something, try to finish it, we'll try to but

We one of the things I wanted them to try it out was going outside, walking around and incorporating some of those environmental sounds and noises and things that aren't really music. And part of it was to kind of build in the story of the workshop into the music that if you weren't here, you would not have got that recording of those people chatting and at the coffee shop. So it's kind of

per permanently marked with the experience and builds that story into it. And it was really interesting how we all took the same walk. Some people were shaking trees and bushes and some people were eavesdropping on conversations and all different things, but everyone felt kind of inspired by that. I've got this now, what can I do with it? How can I incorporate it?

Dennis (42:56.754)

Yeah, and there's something I think really nice about the idea that it's yours too. So you you see this over and over again if you read interviews with people who do a lot of field recording or who sample from their environment into their own music. They often talk about how the thing that makes that recording so special is that no one else can have it.

So, you know, we live in a in a world where samples are really easy to come by now, right? Like you can subscribe to a service and get all the samples you'd ever want. But they you never know whether or not someone else has that sample too. And even if you're deeply dig in, and this is true if you're, you know,

Producing sample-based hip hop too and digging in the crates for interesting records. Like someone else may have used that sound and they might they will, of course, transform it in their own way. But a field recording is pretty special. You know that that's just yours. And even if it's wind or rain or a somewhat generic sound that anyone else could have something similar to, they won't have the same one you have.

And so there's a there's automatically this like deeply personal imprint on the sound that's maybe deeper than what you could get through any kind of synthesis or certainly anything that you would get from a sample library. It doesn't necessarily mean it's better, but it's yours.

Brian Funk (44:22.532)

Mm. Yeah, I've grown to the point where when I put up a mic to record a guitar or vocal, I kinda don't care what's going on. I don't like I I definitely don't have a red light outside my doors that says recording, do not enter. if something comes along and gets involved, it's in. I mean I've recordings with dogs barking, cats.

Dennis (44:31.26)

Sure.

Brian Funk (44:51.31)

A an instrument I come back to a lot is a piano I recorded at my mother's house. she has this really nice grand piano and or baby grand and all I had at the time was the iPad 2. So not a great mic at that time. I just put it on there and in the next room my aunt, my mom, my grandma were all having a conversation, kind of laughing, talking and on some of those samples. You hear them.

They're like laughing and then they get pitched up and stretched around and I love it. It's it's not a great recording of a piano, but it's completely mine. Except that I put it out for free download and people can have it. But it's it's special on a personal level, you know, to have like my family in there and and they're talking and

Dennis (45:32.465)

It's yours.

Brian Funk (45:49.403)

I think that helps me connect to the music more that I make with it. And I don't know that it's measurable in the listener, but I I kind of believe that those little touches matter when you're listening to music to hear something alive and kind of one of a one time only sort of things that happened that are preserved. Something special there.

Dennis (46:15.912)

Totally. And it might not even matter if it matters to the listener. It might only matter that it matters to you and that that was enough of an impetus to finish the record, for example. Like maybe if you'd had a perfect, pristine, better sampled piano, it just wouldn't have been interesting enough for you to keep going. So sometimes the the the quality in a kind of abstract or objective way isn't the goal. It might not even be the best thing.

Brian Funk (46:26.876)

Yeah, right.

Dennis (46:45.433)

the the thing that that excites you about it is the the fact that it's unique, that it's yours, that there's these voices that are mixed in it. I mean if something egregious had happened and the recording was like much louder, be a glass had broken or something, you might have thrown it out, you know, you might have have re-recorded that one.

But these these little ephemeral atmospheric things, sure, maybe they mean that it's worse in some abstract sense, but it doesn't matter.

Brian Funk (47:19.142)

No, and if it's that bad I could always pull up the grand piano preset in any software and be good to go.

Dennis (47:27.089)

Sure, and then but then it wouldn't be special anymore. You know, and maybe the generic one is fine for some other purpose, but the personal one matters at at this moment. And that

Brian Funk (47:30.704)

Hm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:40.358)

Yeah, that's an angle I hadn't thought about, that it might be the thing to keep me going. Not even just even if it gets completely unnoticed, whether that means nobody ever listened or no one heard it when they did. The fact that it pushes you through. Yeah.

Dennis (47:45.371)

Yeah.

Dennis (47:54.759)

I think that's super important. I think it's really important, right? Like I I talk with my students a lot about this idea. I think I talk about it in the book too, this idea of like scaffolding that you sometimes build for yourself scaffolding that you need.

to to get the music made and then when the music's done you don't need the scaffolding anymore. The building is I'm mixing my metaphors here, but it's the same with like with construction, right? The first thing you do is put up this scaffolding and it's kind of ugly and it's purely functional. And it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what the building will look like at the end. You need the same scaffolding to build some pr premium luxury high-rise that you do to build, you know.

right aid drugstore or something, right? But you s you need it until you don't. And these kinds of creative impetus, whether it's an extra musical story or

Brian Funk (48:45.041)

Right.

Dennis (49:00.944)

particular kind of experiment with tools or a piano that you sampled from people that you care about. Like that's the scaffolding for you. And then the music that emerges from that is different than the music that would have emerged without that scaffolding or with different scaffolding. And in the end, the scaffolding means nothing to the listener. Unless you choose to share it and they they take that into consideration. But then you have this artifact that wouldn't have been possible otherwise.

Brian Funk (49:30.353)

Yeah. Yeah, that happens sometimes too. sometimes I start with a guitar part that when I'm actually making the song it sounds better when I mute it. And it might have been the core idea, but actually this works better without that.

Dennis (49:42.66)

Yeah.

Dennis (49:49.402)

Yeah, I love when that happens. You you have a thing that was the center, and then gradually other things overtake it, and then you realize that you never needed that thing in the first place. But you did. You needed it to get where you were, and now it's gone.

Brian Funk (50:04.091)

Yeah. It sort of sacrifices itself into the greater good.

Dennis (50:08.516)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:11.537)

That can be a hard thing to do mentally though, to because as the person making the music, you're so connected with every stage of the process and that's the foundation. Like, how could I ever take that out? Sometimes it's another person even that says like what's going on with that guitar there? What happens if we take that out?

Dennis (50:34.362)

Right. Yeah, I mean I think I d I can't remember what whose quote it is, but there's some famous quote about perfection is when is not when there's nothing left to add, but when there's nothing left to take away. Like strip away all the extraneousness until you're left with what you really need for the thing to be the thing. That doesn't mean that's not an ad that not advocating like a kind of minimalism or anything.

Brian Funk (50:57.575)

Mm.

Dennis (51:02.34)

I'm just saying w it's it's very easy to think that the solution is to add, when often it's to subtract.

Brian Funk (51:11.653)

Yeah. Well, I guess an idea, whatever it is you're trying to put forward, has to be somewhat graspable to the listener. It has to be there has to be some sort of clarity to what it's trying to do. whereas more can distract one. I think I'm thinking a lot now, my my metaphor is going over to writing, where

Dennis (51:38.448)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (51:39.398)

You you need your I the whole point of communication and writing is to be clear and to the point to communicate your idea. And with my students in high school, they think good writing is more words because they've been told things like at least five hundred words and at least all these things say to them, the more I write the better.

And I'm trying to tell them like, no. Sometimes I tell no more than two hundred words. No more than boil it down, take stuff away. And they might even see it and say, like, yeah, it's easier to understand, but it's fewer words. I'm like, No. We we need a little bit of clarity and maybe that's kinda what happens with our music, that the idea gets lost in all the fluff and ear candy and because I have infinite tracks and

New plugins I want to use.

Dennis (52:34.042)

Yeah, I think that's true to an extent. I don't always know if there if there needs to be an idea as a as a thing that you could express on its own. at least in music. Well, even even in writing too. If

If you're trying to do story like narrative storytelling, I mean I'm talking to you as as an English teacher, I shouldn't like that's your domain. But if what you're trying to do is narrative storytelling, sure. But if what you're trying to do is like an experimental play with words, then it may not be the case that there's that there's a line that needs to be perceivable or even that needs to exist. And I guess that's true with music too, right? Like if you're writing a pop tune and

Brian Funk (52:57.915)

No, no, no.

Dennis (53:17.912)

you're you're seeking for some kind of functional functionality in in your pop music. You probably want like a yeah, you probably want a melody and like lyrics that are under understandable. But that's of course only one way that music might work. Music might be about big blocks of texture with no clarity.

Brian Funk (53:24.007)

Some anthemic thing, yeah.

Dennis (53:40.922)

But I still think the subtraction idea is valid, but maybe it's not because you're trying to expose an inner idea, but maybe just because

Dennis (53:55.332)

sure what the answer to that is. If it's not because you're trying to expose an inner idea more clearly, why would it be necessary to take away? It isn't always necessary. I mean with everything, with everything that I might ever say about music, it's like an idea rather than a rule. Yeah, there's always fine, there's always asterisks, you know.

Brian Funk (54:14.406)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dennis (54:19.748)

don't necessarily do this. I do find that in my own music I'm often trying to find subtraction, but I never really think about it because what I'm trying to do is expose a a an idea. Not never. I I'm not usually thinking about it as being about trying to to clarify an idea. It's more just that I have a feeling that there that there's too much clutter.

Maybe when you take more of the clutter away, there isn't a single thing which is more perceivable. It's just that the overall listening experience is somehow less distracted. Or maybe it's just that it fixes the mix. It could be a purely technical thing.

Brian Funk (55:02.382)

Yeah, that's true too. There's a lot of reasons to do it. But yeah, you make a great point. I mean, there's I guess everything we can ever say about art is just maybe a guideline or a suggestion. And a lot of times the interesting stuff happens as soon as you abandon that. Cause yeah, we might want the anthemic song that's gonna create social change or or make you just wanna

kick off your cowboy boots on the weekend and have a beer. But sometimes music is an art, the meaning is somewhere between the creator and the listener and you you let the listener fill in the blanks and that's also a fun experience too to have a piece of music that you're interpreting and you're maybe even differently each time you listen to it, depending on where you're at. So

Dennis (55:59.3)

I mean, that's something I I talk to my students about a lot. Like if they come in with a very strong extra musical idea, this is a piece of music about X. My question for them is often, how important is it to you that the listener hear X? Or is X just the scaffolding, the motivation for you to get the thing across the finish line? And the answers are different, you know?

Brian Funk (56:16.346)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (56:24.334)

Mm.

Dennis (56:25.441)

It's sometimes it's no, the X is the thing that's important. The music is just the vehicle for it. And sometimes it's no, it's just the scaffolding. It's just for me. And other times it's more nuanced. It's like I would like them to have a feeling in the X direction, but the details are up to them. It's up to the listener, it's up to the interpretation, as you said, between the listener and the creator.

And I think it's I think it's good for students to interrogate that. If they come in with a thing that exists before or outside of the music, it's it's good, I think, to question how much do you care about that translating to a listener? There isn't a right answer. but it's an interesting question to think about.

Brian Funk (57:13.828)

Yeah. Yeah, the purpose of it, the intention. And plus I guess this idea of releasing music is sort of letting it go. And sometimes things take on a different meaning. I don't know, born in the USA like

You know, that's sometimes used as just really patriotic song and sometimes it's like kind of a protest sort of thing. but

it gets reused. It's been it's been let go. It's not even Bruce Springsteen's anymore on a lot of levels. It's just the fabric of the society.

Dennis (57:58.34)

Right. Yeah, I mean that's yet another level. Like when it if something becomes a big enough piece of l a big enough cultural artifact that

It it no longer is just about what one listener thinks, but what about like a whole society thinks. And of course, there isn't a right answer there either. The thing is open to interpretation. But you're right, like a song like that is sort of it's a cultural artifact now. It's beyond just creator and one listener. It has it has meanings that are that transcend those things.

Brian Funk (58:19.46)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:32.954)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:36.748)

Yeah, even if the boss himself came out and said you know, definitively people would be like, Yeah, but not to me. Not to us, not to yeah. That that's the cool thing about it. I guess th could be a little scary on some levels, but it's it's nice that this stuff is almost alive. Gets to go live its life once it comes out of you.

Dennis (58:45.283)

Right. It it might not matter. Right.

Dennis (59:07.033)

Yeah. But you're right about it being scary too, because of the loss of control. If you never release it, you never have to worry about that. But as soon as you do, you you either well, you can choose not to worry about it, but it's a it's an object that could inspire worry.

Brian Funk (59:15.738)

Right.

Brian Funk (59:25.37)

Yeah, some artists never say what the songs mean 'cause they don't want to get involved in that.

Brian Funk (59:35.686)

Yeah, it's interesting how we've come to this too and now things can really change fast with the the way stuff spreads today.

But very cool. I w I wanted to ask you something kind of specific based on something I read that you said about teaching. And it's something I found myself saying too, that you I think you said it in this way. I hope my students learn as much as I learn. And I've kind of said this sort of thing

I I like that. I feel like I'm the one that learned the most this semester or this class. Like after the end of the year I'm like, I learned a lot. I don't know about any of you guys. But I'm kinda curious as to some of the things maybe you've learned or that's memories stick out to you. 'cause I'm sure it happens on a lot of different levels. It could even be something technical. It could just be more philosophical or how you approach I know for me just how I approach people sometimes.

Dennis (01:00:41.912)

I think you you kind of summed it up there. I mean, it's a mix of all of those things. You know, maybe the most the sort of simplest sort of surface level representations of this are when a student introduces you to music that they care about that you didn't know. And that that happened a bunch this semester for me, this last semester for me, students would come in with some music that they were excited about, that they were trying to recreate or emulate in some way.

And it wasn't music I knew. And then it was like something else for me to listen to. Something and that's great. Like if I can discover new music, awesome. Sometimes it's a technical thing too. Like, you know, they they've discovered a practice or or particular tool that I hadn't thought about using in that way or

It I mean a particular case in this last semester is that a lot of these students who are doing kind of orchestral recreations in the DAW, they're they have a really deep encyclopedic knowledge of the world of sample libraries. And it's all I mean, I know I know the tools that are used often in like electronic music. And I don't really know the sample library world much. And these

These students knew all about this stuff, who the big players were, and they're able to converse about the names of these companies that I had maybe never heard of. That was super interesting. But on a deeper level, I think it's it's about individuals and the way they respond to creative prompts or feedback or just conversation in class.

And that's one of the things that I like the most about teaching individuals, teaching people in rooms, is that everybody's gonna hear what you have to say and what each other have to say in different ways, filtered through their own interests, their own experiences, their own talents. And then you get to kind of sit back as a teacher and watch that transformation and dialogue happen. and honestly, it was something I really missed about

Dennis (01:02:51.256)

Making educational products versus teaching. So when I was at Ableton I was working on a team that made these learning resources, which is amazing. Like it's so great to know that you're making a thing that scales to potentially. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I think

Brian Funk (01:03:06.243)

Yeah. Those are great resources, th by the way. Just just to mention quickly, like learning music, learning synths. they're so interactive where people can play around and they do things like teach how how synthesizers work from a real simple level and little by little and you're playing with it as you go. Or

even with the learning music, how you're kind of and I think you can even export what you make in those into an Ableton live session, right? So it's a great way of being hands on and kind of what we were saying before, giving people the next thing as they're having fun playing with it. amazing resources.

Dennis (01:03:38.562)

Yeah. Yep.

Dennis (01:03:50.52)

Yeah, I love those tools. They were so fun to make and the the the people, the the team that worked on them, s they're great people.

I and I loved the fact that they could scale, that you make these free resources that operate on the web, and then at any moment tens of thousands of people could be using them. What I missed though, and what and I'm super lucky that I get to explore both of these things in one lifetime, is the opposite of scale, the direct, immediate connection with individuals.

Because what I missed from the making these things at scale is seeing how that person was affected by it versus that person. And you can do user research and you can do interviews, and then you see what those effects are for individuals, but you have limited cycles to iterate then on what.

Doing. And by the by the end of the last semester of teaching, I realized that I was able to communicate with each student individually in a slightly different way. And you know, you're you're kind of guessing, right? You're trying to figure out what is it that makes this student tick. But I think you kind of narrow in on it over time. And by the end, you're able to have these educational relationships with individuals.

So you lose the scale, but you gain the it the directness. And that's you know, that's something that I love learning from my students is how they work as people and as musicians. You can only get that through direct, direct contact. So I've been I just saying I've been super lucky that I've gotten to do

Dennis (01:05:41.442)

the big scaling thing and the immediate direct personal thing all in one career, which is kind of cool.

Brian Funk (01:05:47.759)

Yeah. Yeah, and probably backwards, right? Probably most people start the other way around.

Dennis (01:05:56.664)

I mean, I guess in some sense I did start the other way around. Like the thing that made me first realize that I loved music technology education was that as a grad student I was a teaching assistant for electronic music classes. And so I discovered it quickly there. You know, many of the people were just a few years younger than me then. But it was the same thing. Like I am I quickly saw, yeah.

this person learns best when communicated with in this way and this person really loves this music but really doesn't love this music, how can I play that? How can I play that game with them that will make that will expand their knowledge in some interesting way? And and inadvertently you expand your own too, right?

Brian Funk (01:06:47.653)

That is a fun puzzle to solve in the classroom to learn what makes people tick. I've had in the last year I've moved to a different part of my district where we work with a much smaller classes. And it's really for students that have had some issues, in the bigger high school, anxiety, the stress of being there, you know, all the

Dennis (01:06:50.115)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:14.809)

bazillion of issues that come up in a high school. So working with fewer students and closely and some that start off pretty resistant to you even or distrustful and finding the way in has been very rewarding and all very challenging too and sometimes frustrating and confusing and all those emotions that go with it. But there is something really nice when you can say like, you know, this helped this person.

know, that individual. the the ability to scale is incredible. I mean, you'll never know. Well, even in the classroom, you really never know what your reach is. There's people I'm sure you've taught this year, you've said things that may have just came out of your mouth on a whim and will stick with them forever. But

Dennis (01:07:44.803)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:06.648)

this on the scale you really don't get that sense as much and even if you get the feedback it's sort of after the fact compared to watching the light bulb turn on, so to speak, as you're working with an individual.

Dennis (01:08:21.602)

Yeah. Yeah, you don't see it happen when you make tools. but it's great that those tools exist and it's great that that I had a chance to to build those things. Like I think they just serve a different purpose and and they might even serve a different purpose for the same student. Like I it's exciting to me to think about maybe my potential students in my program got their start by playing with something like learning music.

That's a, I don't know if it's true, but it's a cool thing to think about. Because I think those resources are a great way to get into this world in a in a pretty low stress way. One of the things that somebody told us once when we did testing for these was that they they really liked feeling like they were alone. They liked feeling like there wasn't somebody watching over them doing this thing.

Which is cool. Like there's a there's some power that comes from being able to explore things on your own time. If you want to push a button a hundred times in a row, nobody's gonna tell you not to do it. Whereas in a classroom, it's harder to take that kind of free time. But having both of those learning modalities available to you is cool. Like I think it's great to to explore independently and also in groups and also one-on-one.

They they're different ways of getting into the same kinds of things.

Brian Funk (01:09:51.491)

Yeah, that's an interesting point, 'cause there's a real vulnerability to being new at something. And especially if you're in a classroom and you feel like they already know this stuff and my I have a stupid question that everyone's gonna think I'm dumb for asking. to be able to be a, you know, beginner without any

kinda shame to it, which is a sad thing we have anyway, a lot of times when we learn new things. I think as we get older we get less and less willing to go there, to be a complete beginner, to be new and clueless. We we don't

Kids kids will happily do it, they don't care and the I wanna push those glowing buttons on that MIDI controller and just see what happens. But I I've seen it too in with some of the students. Some sometimes they're like, they don't even wanna touch the light up button 'cause they've been told so many times, No, or you're not good yet, or you didn't earn it.

Dennis (01:10:55.853)

Right.

Dennis (01:11:01.227)

Right, right. Yeah, and a button that you if you really don't know the purpose of a button, what is this the self-destruct button? Like you you don't know what are the boundaries of this environment? Can you actually damage something? You know, and that was one of the cool things about when we worked on the learning sites was that we tried to set it up so that nothing nothing bad could happen no matter what you did.

Brian Funk (01:11:10.382)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:27.95)

Can't crash it.

Dennis (01:11:29.387)

Right. There there was I mean hope I hope not. But so that every there weren't that many buttons available at any one time and every one had a meaningful purpose that hopefully was relatively easy to figure out and not destructive. But you're right. I mean Yeah. Right.

Brian Funk (01:11:44.472)

Hmm. I I tell people that a lot. Especially with MIDI mapping. Like, don't worry, you're not gonna break it. And if if you really mess it up, open a new session. You start over. You can't break it.

Dennis (01:11:55.105)

Right. Yeah.

Yeah, so giving people safe places to to explore on their own terms, I think is very powerful. And then giving them, if they choose, more personal direction in small groups, individually. I think all of these different learning modalities are are really powerful. And you get something different from all of them.

Brian Funk (01:12:19.822)

Hmm. I saw you have a summer workshop coming up with Aaron Barra.

Dennis (01:12:25.634)

Yeah, in just a just about a week and a half. Yeah. Yeah, for high school students here. And yeah, I'm I'm super excited about I'm also super excited about working with Erin again because she's sh she's as good as it gets. Like what a force. and what an amazing and inspiring educator. Like I I'm looking forward to this because I'm gonna learn stuff from her. but yeah, it's for high school students who

Brian Funk (01:12:30.572)

Yeah, I thought that was cool.

Brian Funk (01:12:36.216)

Yeah.

Dennis (01:12:54.221)

Have varying levels of experiences with music production. We're gonna give them a kind of crash course in producing with Ableton Live. And then the thing culminates in a performance of original music that they'll make during the week at the end. Yeah. Yeah, it's fun. I think it's gonna be great. It's a small enough group that it I think we can get some exciting quality hands-on time with individuals and also in the small group again, like the the various modalities.

Brian Funk (01:13:05.889)

wow. That's fun.

Dennis (01:13:21.545)

most of them will be traveling here and living on campus. So it's kind of like a summer camp. It really is like a summer camp for them, which is great.

Brian Funk (01:13:31.268)

Yeah, and and a real world result too, the performance. So it's not just academic exercises. We're gonna we're gonna make something and you get to share it.

Dennis (01:13:42.423)

Yeah. And what that what that can mean for these different students is totally unknown. Like

Brian Funk (01:13:48.323)

Yeah.

Dennis (01:13:48.757)

Some of them might have experience and they will have an idea, or that maybe they've already been making music using these tools. And maybe they want to do more of what they've been doing, or they want to use it as a chance to branch out. And for some of them, this might be the first time they've ever done anything like this. And so there are no expectations on a standard of quality for the performances or anything. It's these students can come to it, come at it as who they are.

and where they are and we're gonna put it all together on one concert. It's exciting.

Brian Funk (01:14:20.779)

Hmm. Yeah, that sounds like a really cool experience for them. And I've done a couple things sort of like like the one I mentioned to you, at the Ableton headquarters and I did a songwriting retreat once where we got together and wrote music with strangers basically. so of rewarding. I mean so much you learn and

On on a lot of levels too. Again, like that vulnerability part, going through that and just trying to open up and share ideas and react with new people, new new perspectives. you know, some of the most educational experiences I've ever had in those types of situations. It's nice to get young kids like that into that early and make that kind of

A normal thing for them.

Dennis (01:15:17.184)

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and a a best case scenario is that some of these students have such a transformative experience here that they're then interested in pursuing this when they get to college. You know, it's exciting to think that there could be a student that comes through this program who's like, wait, I want to do this for four years. And then they could come to do my program. I think that'd be great. It'd be amazing. Yeah, it'd be it'd be awesome if that happened.

Brian Funk (01:15:30.423)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:15:41.441)

Yeah, you'll have the program ready to go.

Hmm. And as you mentioned too, sometimes the best professional development you get is just to work with another teacher. Sometimes even just talking to another teacher and sharing ideas or building something with them. I've always found that's way better than any workshop or you know, whatever kind of thing they make us do every once in a while. Just just let us talk. You get a lot out of

Dennis (01:16:08.692)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's super powerful.

Brian Funk (01:16:15.817)

So with the if I can ask you maybe just a little bit about what the program looks like, has have you ironed a lot of that out by now or is it still kinda coming together?

Dennis (01:16:25.803)

Yeah, we've I mean, you mean the program for the degree, right? Yeah. So we had to have a full four year layout of the coursework and sample syllabi for every course in order to even get the thing approved by New York State, which is actually I didn't know that that would even be part of the process before I

Brian Funk (01:16:28.779)

The degree, yeah, the music creation and technology.

Dennis (01:16:50.428)

before I got here for this job. I somehow naively assumed like I would get off the plane and walk into a classroom and there would just magically be students waiting for me. I don't know why I thought that, but but it's cool to have the opportunity to really build a new thing from the ground up. But yeah, there's a map of the the whole four years. and it's a mix of new courses and courses that are sort of specifically designed for the program.

Brian Funk (01:17:01.795)

Yes.

Brian Funk (01:17:05.41)

Yeah.

Dennis (01:17:17.706)

And then courses that already exist in the conservatory. So the students will do the standard complement of music theory and music history and piano proficiency with minor modifications. They'll do the same thing that all the other students do. Then there will also be a contingent of courses that they'll have to take through the engineering school. So introductions to computer programming, electrical engineering.

Audio engineering course in a studio, so they'll learn, you know, how to function on a recording console with Pro Tools, this kind of thing. Which is not going to be that's not that's not a course that I need to do myself. There's already professors here who who do all of those things actually for the existing audio engineering focused programs that happen in the engineering school.

So my students will take those courses. And that's great. It feels like a really nice combination of technical and musical. We'll see. I mean, the chances that we got absolutely everything right about the curriculum are are pretty slim. Like I think once we actually have students here and we see where their strengths and weaknesses are, of course, we'll probably need to make modifications. But I feel pretty excited about the blueprint that we have for the for the curriculum already.

Brian Funk (01:18:42.861)

Yeah, that that sounds great and it sounds like a lot of well rounded stuff and o also very specific too, so that they get the skills and not just the general f understanding of everything, but go deep on a lot of that.

Dennis (01:18:58.934)

Yeah, I think so. I mean, what I want is for the the students who come through the program to think of it as primarily a music creation program. Like a lot of what they're gonna be doing is making music, but they're gonna be doing it in a context in which they're also invited to make their own tools or to modify tools. you know, it's exciting to think about a student who kind of reaches a boundary in what I mean, this is why things like Max for Live or

or modular synthesis are so exciting is that they they have transcendable boundaries. Like if you find that you've hit a wall with your environment, you can modify the environment to do something very bespoke, very bespoke, very specific to your own interests.

And I think it's great to think about students kind of hitting those walls all the time, not because they've not because they're doing it as a kind of academic exercise, but because they've actually figured out that they have a musical idea that the software or that the tools don't support well, but then they have enough chops to be able to engineer their way out of that problem and hopefully into exciting new musical ideas.

I mean, for me, all the interesting things that I've ever done with Max have always come out of the same impetus, which is I had a particular musical thing that I wanted to do that I couldn't easily do given the tools that were in front of me. So I just made new tools and then experimented with making music with those tools. And that has been that's kind of how I think about music making at this stage of my life right now. Which is super powerful because it makes you

It makes you be critical and questioning of the tools as they're presented to you. Like this doesn't

Brian Funk (01:20:46.435)

Sure. And the tools do suggest a workflow. They do suggest even the arrangement view that Ableton has and Live and every DAW is a tape metaphor, really. It's that's a tape that we're looking at just on a screen and Live obviously broke that with session view and

Dennis (01:20:50.667)

Course.

Dennis (01:20:59.744)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:21:09.469)

And th that's I guess really the story of live, right? Breaking out of those constraints or making their own tools to

Dennis (01:21:16.875)

course. Yeah. And it's been incredibly powerful. And I as we've been, as we talked about earlier, like constraints can be very powerful. They can help you eliminate unnecessary decision making. But at the same time, I think creative music technologists should always be critical and questioning of the constraints that are presented to them. Because none of this stuff is none of this stuff is unbiased.

And I'm not using bias in a in a negative sense. It's just that when you're using a tool, you're seeing music making through the lens of the people who made the tool.

And you can choose to accept that and still make a lifetime's worth of amazing music. Or you can say, yeah, but what if it did this instead? Or what if it could do a little bit more of this in this direction? And I want the school, the students who come through the program to at least be able to ask those challenging questions of the tools and environments that they're in. Because there's going to be more and more of them. There are more tools with more opinions and more biases. And it should be at least possible.

possible to know that you can question those opinions and biases and engineer your way into different opinions and biases which are no less opinionated but they're yours then.

Brian Funk (01:22:38.712)

Yeah.

I think that's clever 'cause it offers them another possible avenue too in their careers of breaking these boundaries, making new things. They have those experiences. Not just like you said, kind of following the the path and and those biases, which is that's the not a bad word for it really, because it's this is how we've always done it, so this is how we're doing it.

Dennis (01:22:48.757)

Yes.

Dennis (01:23:09.633)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:23:09.815)

But we it doesn't have to be and that's part of the great thing about when you get youth involved too, they see these different ways of working and different ideas and it f it usually shakes things up in a interesting way.

Dennis (01:23:22.037)

Yeah, and and there's a subtext also to what you just said, which is that I I would expect that at least some students who come through this program get so excited about the idea of engineering their way to new ways of thinking that they become they they start a music tech company. You know, that I see that as a viable career outcome for at least some of the students in this program. Some will go on to be performing musicians and composers and

the sort of traditional music school outcomes. But I would expect that some of them are also like, wait, this idea that I have that I'm making music with now is not just good enough for me, it's good enough for other people too. Let's do something with it. And then that becomes a viable career path for them as well.

Brian Funk (01:24:09.889)

Yeah, it's very cool. I get very excited about this. Again, partially 'cause of my own personal experience in school where I didn't feel like there was much room for the rock and roll guitar player. And I think so. we're in short supply these days. But yeah, the the kid that has an MBC or got real good on, you know, note on their phone or something like that.

Dennis (01:24:23.531)

There's always room for more rock and roll guitar players.

Dennis (01:24:36.534)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:24:39.361)

Give them that it's a validation thing too, I think, that some of this some of the technology and music kinda deserves that it's nice to see coming from an accredited college, university type thing. it's a nice exciting time. I think I think we live in the best time to be making music. I mean, there's obviously things people

long for from the past, but I don't know that we have to necessarily choose. We can also still incorporate that stuff and yeah, I'm I have a cassette tape machine right next to me. I love it. It's fun, but it's not the best thing in a lot of the situations, but when I want it, it's great. so it's it's just a cool way to offer students and artists future

Dennis (01:25:11.147)

We don't have to choose. Nothing goes away.

Brian Funk (01:25:34.275)

probably people will hear about one day, a chance to express themselves and explore this medium that we've really just kind of scratched the surface of anyway with music. There's so much to be done. It's a never ending rabbit hole.

Dennis (01:25:48.287)

Right. Yeah, agree.

Brian Funk (01:25:54.09)

So is there any place you wanna send people to check out your work or to the university's work or to possibly enroll in the program?

Dennis (01:26:05.087)

Yeah, I I have my own personal website, which is just kind of my my summary, that links out to various other things. But the the the new degree program has its own website which talks a little bit about kind of my philosophy for the for the thing and how the school is thinking about it, and also links to the admissions and application process, which is basically like a port you submit a portfolio of music that you've made or that you've played on.

Along with some videos of yourself working and showing your your studio space and kind of talking about how you make music. Cause I think one of the exciting things about what I'm hoping for for this first first cohort is that we can get students together who have very different ways of working, very different skill sets, very different musical interests.

and put them together in a space together. So I want to hear these students talk about themselves and talk about how they think about music in addition to like listening to that the actual material.

Brian Funk (01:27:12.289)

I like that. It's kind of an open minded application process too. You're inviting interesting perspectives and people in non traditional ways too.

Dennis (01:27:18.431)

Yeah.

Dennis (01:27:24.126)

Yeah, exactly.

Brian Funk (01:27:26.357)

Sounds awesome. I love it. I'm I'm really happy you're doing this. It seems like such a nice transition for you too from I mean, I remember when I was first learning live and I'd look at the tutorials and that was you teaching them. And then I specifically remember seeing you for the first time when I was presenting at TechServe. You were in the audience and I was like, God, I know that guy

Dennis (01:27:28.052)

Yeah, great.

Dennis (01:27:49.948)

Ha ha

Brian Funk (01:27:51.509)

But you were so supportive and kind and always have been, even through the certification process. I I think this is gonna be a real hit and I think the students that go are gonna be lucky to have you. It's really cool stuff.

Dennis (01:28:05.61)

Well, I appreciate it. I I'm I'm very excited about it. I'm very excited to meet them.

Brian Funk (01:28:11.209)

Yeah. Yeah, I can tell you're gonna get a lot out of it yourself too.

Dennis (01:28:15.358)

Yeah, I hope so.

Brian Funk (01:28:18.603)

Dennis, thanks so much. I hope to touch base with you again sometime soon about it. Find out how it's going. But I'll put all the stuff in the show notes for everyone listening so that you can check it out. I already know it's gonna be awesome. It's gonna be a great hit, so go take a look. And thank you.

Dennis (01:28:26.686)

Yeah, thank you.

Dennis (01:28:37.672)

So. All right. Thanks a lot, Brian.

Jeff and I spoke about how mastering can transform a mix. Jeff shared his story of his experience working in studios and learning about mastering, and how LuvLang Studios was created. 

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• LuvLang Studios - https://luvlang.studio

• LuvLang on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/luvlang.studio/

• The State of Loudness in 2026 - https://luvlang.studio/research/loudness-2026

• Free Online LUFS Measurement Tool - https://luvlang.studio/free-lufs-check

• Sterling Sound - https://www.sterling-sound.com

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:00.864)

Welcome aboard. Here we are. It's I'm doing great. It's nice to have you here today. And thanks for taking the time and we've been chatting a bit about this. I can see you are extremely excited about Love Lang Studio. So it's always nice to have somebody that's enthusiastic and is coming from a passionate place. You are a lifelong musician yourself. So it seems like everything you're doing here is comes from that perspective.

Jeff Graves (00:03.898)

How you doing, Brian?

Jeff Graves (00:08.141)

Good to be here, man.

Jeff Graves (00:16.195)

Yes I am.

Brian Funk (00:30.094)

Like you were this you were the prospective client in your past that you're providing for now.

Jeff Graves (00:36.623)

Absolutely. I was the guy with the bag of money going, can you do it? Is this enough?

Brian Funk (00:41.687)

Yeah.

I wanted to ask you a little bit about how you got into or curious about mastering itself because as you mentioned earlier, we were kinda talking about our early studio days and going in and we recorded with a guy that had eight app machines and we got to the end and then it was like, Well now you have to master We're like, What? And it was like, Well it'll be it'll make sure all the tracks are the same, they sound good everywhere and it'll

Fit in with the other C Ds in your five disc changer. It won't be too loud, too quiet or anything.

Jeff Graves (01:16.474)

And we're like, do we really need that? That's well, it's gonna be in about another thousand dollars. I think that's about what they were charging back in the day. And that was like for 10 songs. It was like, okay. So, you know, it was about hundred bucks a song. And yeah, you know, there was no reports.

Brian Funk (01:28.288)

It was a little bit of a surprise cost. Yeah.

Jeff Graves (01:31.555)

A little bit, know, after, yeah, I after, you know, and again, I remember the mixing, was like, well, how long are we gonna, you know, and it's like, well, I mean, you can spend two hours, you spend three hours, spend, you know, and we would sit there, and this was obviously before, you know, the digital days, so I mean, you know, we were like helping move faders at times, you know. And again, you know, how long do you, you know, and it's like, some songs would take longer to mix, and I don't know, now that I'm older, I'm thinking, well, were they bleeding the clock, you know, I don't know, but yeah, I mean, some songs,

Brian Funk (01:48.354)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:59.926)

It was also a performance, you know, like y you your mix was a performance. We didn't have all the automation and I mean on a lot of my old recordings when I finally got my own stuff, I would have a notebook with at thirty seconds I gotta move this up and pull this down and sometimes there was a guitar on the track that had the tambourine on it 'cause I'm trying to save space. So yeah. It was performance. So you got involved.

Jeff Graves (02:02.489)

Yeah!

Jeff Graves (02:14.936)

Absolutely.

Jeff Graves (02:19.608)

Right,

Jeff Graves (02:25.914)

Yeah, know, so, you know, just just really getting down to the wire of like, OK, you know, what is mastering? So I got older and such, you know, and obviously we all have our own dollars today. Right. So, you know, you have that idea and you want to pick up the acoustic and you know, you would record a track and you're like, you know, I'm going to go ahead and put a little bass line to that, you know, then pretty soon you put a little percussion, you know, pretty soon you get kind of a nice little gem. Right. You know, this little demo that you've been kind of working on and might add a little piano or strings or whatever. And it just really it's starting to come alive. Right.

And then so you start mixing it putting that compression you start getting stuff and you're really throwing in that EQ and you know you're throwing in some you know you know pre on the vocals and you know all this cool stuff to you know plugins and you get this just great sound and then you play it in your car and you're like

man, this does not sound like what it sounded like in my studio, you know? And so that was just the real break of, know what, I want to process because I record, I record for other people and I want to have that finished product that I can kind of master for them, even if it's not perfect, but at least kind of give them a general master. And then that just really drove me down this road where I just wasn't happy with it. And I kept just tweaking it and tweaking it to

Finally, I just was like, need to do this step by step by step just to make sure that I have all the right components. I mean, I have SSL, I have Neve, I have really prominent EQs. I have the best of the best in my online platform. And that was really hard to do because it's all online. It's all web-based. So that was another hurdle. But again, it's...

It's done and with all the mechanisms and stuff that I have in place, it's the best platform out there right now. I I put it up against anything, literally, and welcome. And yeah, that's it.

Brian Funk (04:25.963)

So just to so people understand, in case they didn't catch that, so you've got this online mastering service. So it's a website where people can upload their music. which have been popping up a bit here and there. It seems like every time I upload a song somewhere they wanna know if I want a little master to it or something. And it's just kinda if you hit yes, something happens and it sounds different somehow and

Jeff Graves (04:36.186)

www.loveling.studio

Brian Funk (04:55.177)

I've never been able to make any sense of what exactly is going on and why some things sound okay, some things sound really weird. so I've ki I've kinda just stopped clicking. Yeah, let's see how that sounds. but you're given a lot more than that. You've got much more on your platform that makes it more of an interactive experience.

Jeff Graves (05:11.3)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (05:19.066)

Yes, and I do have three different tiers. know, we talked a little earlier, you know, the first tier is just a 16 bit MP3. Your second tier is 24 bit. Doesn't give you all the goodies, but gives you some. And then the studio version is giving you the 24 bit. You know, you can change your bit depth. can...

You can change a lot of different things too. So that flagship is probably for more people that hey, we worked really hard on this song. We want this to be radio ready. And I built this platform to where I do have things in place that I'm referencing your track to find out what genre, to find out what your total peaks are. There's a lot going on where a lot of these other platforms just weren't doing. And then I would find out that the user would suffer.

thing they weren't giving you any sort of certificate that was a bother so with mine I'm telling you exactly what I'm doing I'm giving you a certificate showing you what your song came in at and then what we did to make it sound better I think that's important you know and again hopefully we can educate people on just the process of mastering so they know when they hit another platform they go wait this doesn't sound as good as Love Lang you know and again they're only doing possibly six to

to eight processes, I think is usually what these platforms are doing. I'm giving you the option to do 24. So obviously it's a lot heavier. It's a lot more in depth. It's the real thing, you know? And my whole goal was to try to mock Sterling sound mastering. I that was my goal, you know? And I don't think you can really...

100 % reach that goal, right? Because as an engineer you need to have ears, you know? It almost needs to be done by a person, know, a master engineer. So I wanted to give people that option too, Brian. Like, hey listen, you I know we can get really close and hey, you know, the studio tier sounds really good.

Jeff Graves (07:28.504)

But I want to do an album and I'd like to have an engineer kind of go through these just so the whole album's cohesive, etc. Now, I do have that option on the online to where you can upload a reference track and then that reference track can basically be your reference for all 10 or 12 songs. You want to do one reference track for each song, you can do that as well. So there's just so many different options. Now, do you really need those reference tracks? It's going to zero you in a little bit more.

but honestly if you know how to work an EQ, you have ears yourself, you're probably gonna do okay, right? I don't know your ears, but I'm hoping that you would do okay. And then at that point, you could possibly master that, it, listen to it, and then maybe make some other changes, right? This is just part of that process where I wanna make it simple for people, and when they get a finished product,

It sounds good on everything. And the big thing is that you're hitting that LUFS. It's hitting that peak of minus 14. Because if you're over that, they're going to cut it, which that's going to hurt your track. And if you're under it, they're going to have to push everything up.

that could be a bad thing too, right? And all of sudden you're hearing artifacts and stuff like that. So it's very important in the digital world that, you know, that there is some sort of platform that can really make it stupid proof. And that was really my goal.

Brian Funk (08:59.853)

Can you tell us a little bit about Luffs? This is another very misunderstood topic. Yeah.

Jeff Graves (09:04.736)

Absolutely. Absolutely. So LUFS, what is that? Right. So 17 BS 1770-4 is the standard. That's what I'm operating off of. I'm not going to get too digital. I'm not going to get too technical here because that's just dumb. So with that being said, to break it down, that's basically what Spotify and everybody's doing today. Right. So all my measurements are coming in at

the standard levels, right? Of what today's music is actually being played at. Now you do have an option, if you're going with Apple, it's minus 16. People might say, minus 16, that's gotta be louder. It's actually lower, okay? So minus 14 is actually louder. That's gonna be your Spotify, YouTube, Amazon, Tidal.

this and get done more. That's kind of the standard so to speak. Now Apple does minus 16. They've been doing that I believe since... I'm not gonna give a date because I might be wrong. But for a long time, right? Okay.

Brian Funk (10:08.47)

There was a time, yeah, where they sort of standardized that. Yeah. I remember that.

Jeff Graves (10:11.82)

And then Deether. Deether is a different platform and they kind of sit at minus 15. So they're right in between Spotify and Apple Music. So most people are doing that is measuring, you know, all your all it's basically the loudness of what people are going to hear your music at.

Brian Funk (10:23.552)

And what is what is that measuring exactly, Luffs? What

Jeff Graves (10:37.978)

Now it does require a little bit more than that, but I think that's probably the easiest for people to understand without getting too technical. But the LUFS is really where your track is going to land and where all your peaks are going to sit.

Brian Funk (10:55.754)

Mm. And I guess maybe the common thinking might be, okay, if I get that number as high as possible, my track will be as loud as possible, but then the streaming services come in or whatever platform you're using and they'll they'll adjust that.

Jeff Graves (11:08.942)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (11:15.546)

Correct, so you know it's obviously somebody that says, hey you know I mastered your track and oh it's you know okay and we're gonna put it all over Spotify and Amazon Music and maybe Tidal, I don't know. Okay cool, so we're gonna do minus 14 then because that's gonna be where you're gonna want it and I'll go ahead and master it for you and then I'll send you a couple, you know 30 minute, 30 second track, whatever.

a minute, whatever, send you a couple rough takes, let me know what you think of it, right? Then usually the guy will do some tweaks. That being said, with my platform, you can take it, upload that track, and we'll actually measure where your track's truly sitting at. So if it is over, let's say you're hitting minus 11, minus 12, you can let that guy know, hey, they're gonna crush this because we're a few

off, right? So I really want to kind of measure my song to really get it to minus 14. So we know exactly how it sounds and we know when it goes, you know, through their whole machine, so to speak, it's, it's gonna sound like we intended it to sound like. And I think a lot of people are mistaken by that.

Brian Funk (12:25.846)

Do you

Yeah. Do you recommend people aim for a certain luffs level in the mixing phase? Or is this more something that we can just work on once we're mastering?

Jeff Graves (12:39.768)

No, this is all mastering. Yeah, you know, I think at your mixing level, everybody's different, you know. Some guys, you know, save their ears, you know, which is good, because you get ear fatigue after a while, which we're all aware of.

You know and some guys you know be like came in you know yeah for the first hour or two You know but then towards that last 20 minutes I need to hit that DB of it because I need to make sure that everything's hitting and they can usually feel that right with their studio Monitors and they can kind of get a feel because this obviously isn't their first song they'd make so I think you get close to that box and What's really cool is that when you think you know hey? I think we got our master or our mix and it's complete you can just

literally upload it into Lovelang.Studio and get that measurement. Right. And then hear it and play that on the studio monitors and go, OK, this is exactly where it's going to sit when we play it for our people. Right. On our whatever, you know, on Tidal, whatever music platform. So I think this this definitely gives you a look inside that box of, OK, this is this is where we're at. And again, with the

certificate and everything, we're showing you exactly what we've done to your song. So we'll tell you exactly where was at and then where we put it. Which, yeah, a certificate showing you that is giving you that peace of mind that, when it goes through the machine to these other services, I'm not gonna get, my track's not gonna get squashed.

Brian Funk (14:19.616)

Well, I think that's an interesting part because and it's one of the first things on your site. you say we teach you why. I think some understanding of what's happening and where we're going. and I think that would probably even help people get revisions and give feedback so that they can get it more where they're looking for it to be, to have that understanding.

Jeff Graves (14:28.494)

very much.

Jeff Graves (14:45.76)

Absolutely. And I hear a lot of people that are doing that and they're way loud. They're normally a lot louder. So again, that's going to be an issue. And you know, if you're not really educated, like I wasn't, I wasn't educated. I'm like, it's fine. It's fine. You know, not really knowing.

And again, I'm ignorant upon it. So we don't need that, you know, but that I found out later. Wow.

This is probably the most important. And again, I just, you know, I think you live and you learn. And what I'm really hoping to do is just kind of educate those guys that are really proud of what they're creating in their home studio. And they're just like, man, I just need a platform that's going to give my song justice, right? I don't have $500 or, you know, $300 a song to send it off to Sterling or I think Apple Records is doing something.

to or there's all these different you platforms that hey you know we'll take your song it just seems like everybody wants your money and then it's just this black box and then when you get your stuff back you're like either you like it and then there's no certificate again you're still in the dark it's just this black box or they're like yep you're good to go well are you you don't know

So, but by creating this website, I thought, you know what, if I can educate people a little bit and we're all on the know, I think this is going to help them further. And hopefully I can gain their business. You know, like, hey, this is a guy that really spent the time to go through each, you know.

Jeff Graves (16:31.474)

layer of the mastering part so I'm not ruining their sound. I mean think that was the biggest thing and I'll tell you what if it didn't make my song sound better you know the tracks that I was uploading or my band I didn't use it. I looked for another EQ, looked for another gate or whatever you know and that was really really hard to really find the right

formula so to speak and then put it in the right chain order. There was just so much tweaking that I was pulling my hair out. mean three years was was not fun. Towards the last six months it was a lot of fun but yeah until then it was just maybe there a lot of coffee. There's a lot I mean I think I tried to give up a few times like this I don't know if this is even possible.

Brian Funk (17:11.488)

Hmm.

Hm. You start to hear it.

Jeff Graves (17:25.658)

There was a lot of mistakes, you know, and coming from somebody that writes code and trying to come up with that perfect sound when somebody uploads a track, I'm sure you can only imagine. But again, I was hitting hurdles. I was completing them. So I would start off on the next piece, right? Then I'd fall off again, you know. But again, just creating this process to where it was a sweet flow.

of 24 features that would actually attack your track if it thought it needed it. And I thought, well, how do you get software to behave like that?

That was the hardest. I don't want to give away all my secrets, but I definitely, definitely worked on that because that was the biggest thing to me because I knew I'm an audio guy. There's going to be audio guys are to go, man, you know that this is off. You know, your measurements off. You know, when I do this, it's, it's, you know, it's losing to 2.4 DB. And I was running into these issues. You know, okay, I'm losing. I'm losing a couple DB here. Where am I losing that from?

what and why is it taking that away? So again, just just constant constant testing, auditing, revisions, you name it, and just trying to get those pieces to line up. And then I would move on to the next layer. And there was probably at least three 400 layers. Just to be quite honest, I mean, it was it was a big fee. It was a little painful, man. I don't know if I would do it again. But

Brian Funk (18:59.987)

Yeah. Well sometimes when you don't know how bad it's gonna be you go through it if you

Jeff Graves (19:05.986)

man, was just like, know, it's just ever gonna, you know, and people are like, hey, you're still working on that. I'm like, man, it's not, it's not perfect, man. And it has to be perfect because this is the problem I'm running into. So if I can't perfect that, then who am I? Like, what am I doing? Right. And so I was sending it off to a lot of studios. Hey man, let me, let me master 30 seconds of your track, man. Can you give me some feedback? You know, people would send me feedback, you know.

Hey, you know, this is is really good, you know, and then I I would I would compare it to like other mastering, you know, like Sterling sound. That was my big thing. That was like that was that was that was like, man, if I can if I can get certain and I created this kind of harness is what they call it. And the harness is basically just a whole testing workflow atmosphere. And I would I would test these tracks on there. Basically, it would tell me where I'm coming up short from like Sterling.

sound.

And again, you're not going to get 100 % because you have human ears. But man, I got probably 97%. Like, there's that three, I think that's where it ended up. I think it was like 3 % that getting down to the algorithms and such, you know, that you weren't going to really tweak. And you got to be careful when you're tweaking too, because you want to tweak something that you really don't want tweaked, right? So it's just heavy, heavy, heavy balance.

And I'm just dying to really hear people go, hey, I've used a few platforms. I'm really ready to sink my teeth into something that somebody really cares about. I'm an audio guy, love to sing, love to play guitar, just instruments. I'll pick up a bass, I'll pick up a harmonica. It's fun.

Jeff Graves (20:58.778)

I learned the harmonica just through cover stuff, but you know, just having a new instrument, you know, and just being able to record something that sounds good. I feel like we have all these capabilities today with the DAWs and everything that everybody's using. It's just when you go play it in your car, you know, and it's like, wow, you know, and these guys are charging way too much, man, for what they're offering. I mean, they're seven or eight, you know, just different features that are going to make my song sound a little deeper. Those are doing, man, they're just kind of doing the smiley face with the

Brian Funk (21:12.383)

Yeah.

Jeff Graves (21:28.792)

EQ and that stuff just doesn't cut it in the real audio world you know and I think that that's that's just really right I'm hoping I'm really hoping to reach some people Brian

you know they'd say hey Jeff I have I have that same problem you know and yeah my site's free man so I just welcome people to upload your tracks have fun with it see where it's at if you're like wow you know I'm AB in this thing and it sounds three times better purchase a track purchase an mp3 you know take it take it easy you know the first track

Brian Funk (22:07.988)

Well it's nice to get the chance to play with it a little, you know, and get a sense of it. I think the only stuff I've seen is you know, you maybe get to hear part of what the track sounds like and then buy it or not. And that's it. then it doesn't leave you with much choice. But

Jeff Graves (22:12.324)

Definitely.

Jeff Graves (22:26.125)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (22:30.35)

So what I'm doing is I'm actually when you're completed.

Brian Funk (22:33.35)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (22:34.362)

with the mastering and you've tweaked and you got everything set, you're going to go ahead and export, right? So when you export, that's not going to charge you yet, you know, and that's probably, I should probably have something listed there because probably people are like, I'm scared to hit export, it's going to take money out of my account, you know, obviously, we don't have any of your credentials yet, right? So there's nothing to take out of it. When you hit export, what it's going to do is it's going to take you to this tier screen. And Brian, that's where that that the user has that option to go with tier one, which is the MP3 tier two, which

the 24 bit not all the bells and whistles and then tier three is 24 or if you want to change your bit depth or whatever you're wanting to do and then obviously it with all the bells and whistles so that's and what you can really do is just hear that well do you know I you know tier one and p3 we can all hear the difference there right well people like you know they're tier two and tier three they have that option to listen to the song that they've went ahead and mastered and they can a and b

just those two tiers and literally you just take your mouse hit play on that tier go to another tier hit play when you hit play on that second tier it's gonna automatically stop the first tier and start playing that that tier that you've selected so now you're getting that A and B A and B you keep doing that all day until you okay now I'm hearing I'm definitely hearing the difference I'm hearing it because you can hear it sometimes with certain tracks it's very subtle

But you can hear it and I've thrown many, many tracks in there and it's... You can hear the difference. It's just... can you? Do you have those audio ears to where you can... and I guess maybe somebody that's not an audio person... Man, I can really barely tell the difference.

somebody else are going, oh man you don't hear those highs. You don't hear those those highs just really peeking through like really cutting through to like you're getting more of a balanced sound and oh okay yeah yeah yeah and now when you just do tier two you don't get all that right because they're not not giving you the flagship but they're still giving you that 24 bit.

Jeff Graves (24:40.248)

And this is what I'm hoping people go, OK, no, I do hear the difference. And again, I'm just trying to hit everybody's budget, too. It's not about taking your money. My big thing is solving a problem. And hopefully, during that, Brian, I can educate these people a little bit of going, hey, you know what? I'm not a mastering engineer, but using this platform, I definitely know a little bit more about mastering because of all the selections I have to hit.

Brian Funk (25:06.686)

Hm. Yeah, that's it's a lot of a lot of options. Cool stuff. I'm I'm very interested in this. Yeah, good.

Jeff Graves (25:08.681)

We hope.

And it goes through, I'm sorry, it goes through the 24 steps and then I was just gonna add that you can obviously take some of those steps away. I think those are gonna be on the right panel and that's where you'll see if you kind of just go down, there'll be little toggle switches that you can just basically disassemble. And again, have fun with it. You're not gonna break anything, but have your ears do the work. I think that's the most important.

Brian Funk (25:40.351)

Hmm. You've got a cool study about loudness in twenty twenty six, and I think maybe we've all kind of heard about the loudness wars of the past. They seem to be thought of as something in the past anyway, where we were making everything louder and louder and louder. Music was getting more distorted, less dynamic. And there's some great videos online that you can see.

One that sticks out in my head is smells like teen spirit. And there's a certain remaster, I guess they did, where it's so loud that that opening guitar, it comes in and then when the drums come in it's just like as opposed to the original master where it's a bit quieter and then when the drums come in they're like boom boom boom boom like you know, much huger.

Jeff Graves (26:19.354)

Mmm.

Jeff Graves (26:24.638)

Jeff Graves (26:30.612)

Okay. Yeah, I have not heard that. So that's a remaster? that like what 25th anniversary or something? Or was it 30 years now? Okay.

Brian Funk (26:35.37)

It might not even be that long later. It might have been like 10, 15 years later. but kind of right when the I guess streaming started, there was all this competition that you wanted your song to be as loud as when you went on shuffle on your iPod. So it was kind of the wild west of people just making stuff super loud, but at the cost of the dynamics. And you've got

Jeff Graves (26:43.352)

Okay.

Jeff Graves (26:48.09)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (26:55.608)

Yeah, that's... Wow.

Jeff Graves (27:01.903)

Sure.

Brian Funk (27:03.248)

this blog post you wrote about the loudness in twenty twenty six and was pretty surprised to see it seems like it is still going on a bit where we're still fighting for all that loudness.

Jeff Graves (27:15.798)

Yeah, you know, I think we are and I think you I think you said it yourself real well, Brian dynamics, right? So when everything's just turned, you know, all the way and, you know, obviously it all started with, you know, the loudness wars and such, you know, we're

And they're like, we have to have some sort of cap, man, because everybody's just getting louder and louder, you know, and this was early, early days. And, you know, obviously you look at your whole region, it just looks like one full box, right? You're just like, wow, it's already breathing. There's already breathing. There's no dynamics, right? So, you know, with my platform, that was a huge struggle to really preserve the dynamics. And I think that is the

Brian Funk (27:44.404)

Just the sausage waveform. Yeah. All right.

Jeff Graves (28:01.852)

most important in mastering not just your loudness and it's I don't want to get too technical but you know what's minus 14 you know there's a lot to that right and with that you want your dynamics and everything to still have some room right and I just think that people lose that no no I just want to let you know well at the end of the day I think if they could hear the two differences they go okay

No, you're right. You're right. Yeah. Cause you want to feel a little bit, right? You want to feel that those buildups a little bit or those new breakdowns, you know? I just think that that's part of music. That's part of stuff that I grew up, you know, listening to albums and CDs where they just, they still had that mood, you know? And I think sometimes where everything's just so in your face, you kind of lose some of that emotion. So again, that's, that's something that I'm really proud of. it was one of the hardest things.

is really to maintain those dynamics that you're not squashing them. For sure.

Brian Funk (29:06.343)

It's a funny I guess it's like an irony of recorded music that it can only get so loud, right? Like you keep adding stuff and it just hits the ceiling where I mean in if we were in this room we could just keep turning stuff up. It'll just get louder and louder and louder. It doesn't matter. But

Jeff Graves (29:20.662)

Absolutely.

Brian Funk (29:26.011)

you have to sort of make these sacrifices knowing that if we can only get this loud and we want this section to be powerful, we kinda need to back it off on the part before. So the Smells Like Teen Spirit example is so good because that first guitar is just kind of scratchy. It's not the full blown distorted guitar yet. Comes in dirty and then those drums are are huge because that guitar gets to be small.

Jeff Graves (29:37.684)

There you go.

Brian Funk (29:53.716)

But when they remastered it to have that guitar, it's already at like the peak levels. There's nowhere else to go and everything sounds a bit wimpy when it comes in. It's

Jeff Graves (29:59.759)

Very true.

Jeff Graves (30:04.922)

Very true. And you know, when you're mixing a song, you're only gonna get so much of that thump and that full, I like to call it fullness, you know? That fullness to where it feels like a real song. Like when you're in your car and you're turning it up and you're like, man, it's one of my favorite songs. You want your song to sound like that.

Brian Funk (30:09.585)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (30:28.89)

So when people turn it up, doesn't sound like crap, it doesn't distort, it doesn't... That it sounds really, really good like the rest of your albums do. And I think doing that, that is mastering. And that is something that I was just completely unaware of. I thought it was the recording process. Oh, we're just not recording as good, you know? Our mix isn't as good. No. No, your recording, your mixing is great.

You're mastering. You're mastering is what takes you from a C level to an A level. Like literally, it should take your song from C level to A level. Like it should reach two different like, wow, I can hear the difference. Like it should be stupid proof. I mean, it really should because what you're doing is you're kind of maximizing all that and you're rounding, you're gluing everything together in hopefully a very measurable way.

So when you can A, B it, you listen to the A, which is the raw, you're not hearing all that glue. You're not hearing all that force and that fullness, right? That's what the mastering's doing. And that's what I'm really hoping to educate people when they just A and B their track. They're like, okay, this is really what true mastering is doing. And I will say that that platform,

whatever song you put in, you're gonna hear a difference. You're gonna hear a difference. Now, if it is mastered already, you're probably not gonna hear a whole lot of difference. And so it's very important to take something that's not mastered. So I always try to emphasize that.

Don't try to be put in master tracks. And another thing is that if people try to just put in, I like to call it a turd, Brian. Can't polish a turd, right? So if you just got this thing and you're like, hey man, I know it's kind of a turd, but I want to master it. It was just a little something. My levels were completely off, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I'm going to load it. Go ahead, load it up into Lovelang.Studio and it will tell you, hey.

Brian Funk (32:21.321)

Right.

Jeff Graves (32:41.422)

bad recording and it will tell you why. Again, education, right? yeah, yeah. And it's going to tell you, you should really consider re-recording this for this reason. There's no headroom.

Brian Funk (32:45.235)

Hmm. it gives you that feedback on the mix. Hmm.

Jeff Graves (32:57.242)

for this reason and whatever these reasons are. You know it could be talking about peak values, it could be talking about all sorts of different things. My whole thing is that I didn't want to bury them with a bunch of technical stuff. I just wanted to get them into the ball of okay, okay so you're not... yeah I could but it's not going to do you any justice man. Again we're polishing a turd. So for me to be upfront and just take your money I could do that.

Would I feel, I be selling a service? Would I be educating that user? Would that user want to come back? These are the three things that I was like, man, I gotta nail all three of these. I don't care if you like the platform, if you like me, I just want you to go, hey, this guy's definitely got something going on here. And even if I don't purchase all the time, man, what a great reference thing just to upload my track to see where I'm at.

you can make something in your own room. I'm to go ahead and try to master it myself. Now granted, you don't have near the tools that I have in my platform, but let's just say you're trying to just get a mediocre master.

And you get that, and then you obviously want to upload that just to see what sort of target you're hitting. And then it will tell you, yeah, you're hitting, you could be hitting minus 11. That's going to be too loud, right? So you want to get it down to that minus 14. Then you might want to go ahead and remix it, right? So if you kind of know where you're at, you might want to, hey, let's turn some things down a little bit. Maybe let's try to add a little bit more dynamics. Just again, we could talk about that for days and days.

Mixing is obviously a very personal thing, but everybody has that vision. And I think if you have that vision, you're never ever, ever going to achieve that in a mix. And I always thought you could as a kid. We can hit you. We're just not spending enough time. don't have a great, we don't have an SSL board. We need a need board. That's what we need, right? Yeah, those are all great things. But at the end of the day, you have to master your track. And what sucks is

Brian Funk (34:59.173)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (35:07.866)

There's no place that you can walk in and go, hey, guys, I'm going to go down to the mastering store today. We just didn't have that luxury. And I thought, man, today we do have that luxury. And if I can give that 18, 20-year-old that peace of mind to keep going.

Because you can only get so far in a mix. Once you master that mix, Brian, we're, I mean, that's gonna, like I said, it's gonna take you from a C level to an A level. Wow. Now you're ready to pop that thing on somebody's PA, ready to play it in your car, you're ready to play it for your friends. Man, that sounds good. They don't know mastering, so they think it's all part of the recording. And I think that's kind of a nice thing. Just when you think your master's, oh, oh, I'm sorry, your mix.

Brian Funk (35:49.416)

Sure.

Jeff Graves (36:00.053)

Always tell people, get your mix to where it's, wow, this mix is so good. This is it. I wouldn't change anything. Then master it because it's going to blow you away once you master it.

I mean, it's going to just add all that glue and that's just something I was just not educated on, Brian. And that's why was really excited to really hope to reach some of your followers. to not try to really sell anything to them. Just educate. Just educate. Try to pop on the platform. I don't know who you are. I don't take any of your information. You do have to sign up with your email address. But past that, mean, until you want to purchase something, there's no credit card.

And I thought that's really keeping my true stance, man, and just really trying to give them those features that I've worked three years for without pissing people off.

Brian Funk (36:54.44)

Do you have any recommendations? yeah, you certainly can. Do you have any recommendations about how to prepare a mix for the master as far as like headroom or any kind of processing before it gets put out to whether it's on your platform or really anywhere for master?

Jeff Graves (36:56.248)

Which you can't, you know.

Jeff Graves (37:01.082)

Definitely.

Jeff Graves (37:13.554)

yeah, you know, I would say just when you're mixing something, you know, and you're, you know, somebody is, you know, they're, they're working with DB and they kind of know, a mix isn't going to really, hurt you, you know, because once you start mastering, that's going to start really putting everything in its place. and then that's what really makes it concrete. Right. So now this is, you know, masterings, the icing on the cake, as far as

You know, mixing, does matter. I mean, you obviously need to be in a studio where people are recording at nominal and there's headroom, right? Just all your basic 101 stuff. That's what's going to give you the best master. And that's probably the best answer I could give you with that question. Because people are, you know, we're constantly looking at our meters and we're, you know, to make sure that everything is sitting right in the...

Right, that's the mix. It's not the master So if you're just focusing on that mix focus on the mix make sure everything's sitting in the bed to where you really want it to sit and Then that's when you're ready for mastering. Hey guys, I think we're ready for mastering. Does this sound good to you? Yeah, man, maybe kick up that solo just about a Half a DB. Okay, you know, I mean this these are the final touches you're putting to your mix, right? You get to that point

hop on Lovelink.Studio, pop it in there and just A and B it. Okay, man? Because that's gonna give you that impression of, okay, this is what our song's gonna really sound like if we have it professionally mastered. It's not gonna squash it, it's not going to... Man, mastering can really mess up a song.

It's going to give you that fair handshake. I think that's equal to say. And on top of that, we're to give you a certificate showing exactly what we've done to your song when you're ready to actually purchase it. And that's just something no platform really does. It's just big black box. Hey, you've mastered. What do you think? Well, what'd you do? You're not going to tell me anything you did? And how do I know I'm sitting at minus 14 or minus 16?

Jeff Graves (39:30.074)

How do I know you didn't squash all my, you it's there's just so many answers that I think mastering people really look at to make sure that they don't do that to your track. So it does breathe and it does still have some dynamics. I just think a lot of these platforms that only have seven or eight processes that are dealing and you're dealing with a simple algorithm. There's no simple.

button to hit when you master and I think that's what really comes into effect with a lot of these platforms that are coming out today where if you listen to it compared to your mix, it's going to sound better, but you don't know what they did. You know, are they just giving you a smiley EQ kind of thing? Yeah, it's going to sound better. It's going to definitely sound better. You know that, Brian. goes, yeah, no, it definitely sounds better. But is it the better you're looking for? Right? Is that?

Brian Funk (40:13.456)

Mm.

Well, I I've put a lot of them I've actually felt they sound worse sometimes. just kinda and not really sure what it was thinking, where what the logic was and you can hear it it's maybe shrill or maybe now it's really heavy in the bass.

Jeff Graves (40:25.687)

Absolutely.

Jeff Graves (40:32.75)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Brian Funk (40:41.05)

I I haven't had the and you don't get the control. So that's always been the concern, with some of that stuff. You don't get the kind of hey, this is

Jeff Graves (40:46.298)

Mm-hmm.

And with the digital stuff, you're getting artifacts too. So you got to be careful because once you start really turning stuff up, you you could, you know, you're, you're getting, you can, you can be getting into some issues, right? You know, so again, just, just, just really measuring that mix and, and just giving, giving the song what it needs. Oh yeah.

Brian Funk (41:08.21)

Do you think there's a good l amount of headroom firm mix that you like to have? Like what do you do you I've I've hear lots of people say lots of different things, but do you have a recommended like amount or where it should be peaking?

Jeff Graves (41:20.492)

It really depends on the song. I mean, it really depends on the song, your genre, you know, what sort of feel are you going for? I would say definitely that's really where it's going to sit. And if you're dealing with a good audio engineer, he's going to give you that headroom and he's going to give you, everything's going to be measured correctly.

Brian Funk (41:41.458)

Well, suppose we have our home studio hero, you know, working on their mix. Yeah. Without the engineer.

Jeff Graves (41:46.297)

Home studio? Yeah, you know, I would, yeah, I think that's pretty 101, man. I you've got to be recording at nominal, right? So it's all, you know, getting a little engineering here, but you know, you're pretty, right? So you want to stage game, you know, you have to get your game staging correct, or else everything's downhill from there.

I that's 101, right? So once all that gain staging is done and everything is okay, well now you're tracking. So that's probably the most important is to make sure that everything is set correctly when you're tracking. Because the mixing and the mastering, all that is just extra layers, fluff if you will, to make your track record.

Brian Funk (42:25.271)

You're going in.

Brian Funk (42:30.823)

Well, I think even and probably a lot of people listening are some and are probably not recording anything. It might be working completely in the box. S you know, synths, VSTs, drum machines, where s a lot of that stuff is sorta taken care of already. So that you know, they don't they're not worried about recording the level of their drum machine because it's

Jeff Graves (42:45.402)

Okay.

Brian Funk (42:57.955)

it's an instrument within their DAW. which is nice and I think it gives people a nice starting point on a lot of their work. But what we do afterwards can sometimes be where we go wrong. are we running it into zero D B

Jeff Graves (43:00.388)

Right.

Jeff Graves (43:14.554)

Yeah, you know, I think even if you're laying a baseline, you know, if you're laying a baseline and you clip, you're going to notice that, right? You're probably going have to redo it. I kind of hit that. I hit that a little hard. You know, sometimes keys are a little sensitive, right? If you kind of hit it too hard or just whatever, you know, so I just think, yeah, if you're if you're measuring all that when you're tracking, whether you're, you know, and on a digital device or your

doing something through analog, you know. Your gain staging is gonna be meant and that's all part of the start of your recording. But I think people are pretty good with all that. I think the biggest reason for the mastering platform was when people get done with their mix, you know. And man, it just doesn't sound great everywhere. And where do I go? And do I have to go to Lander? Because I don't really like Lander.

You know, I want to be able to tweak or whatever, you know, that was me at least. I'm not putting any company down, get me wrong, but my whole frustration was man, I wish Lander would give me something I could tweak. They don't. It's like hit this, hit this or hit this and you're done. Like three options, that's it. Now you mean to tell me every piece of audio is going to fall under those three presets? No.

So now what you're doing is you're chaining me to a wall going, hey, we're not going to really give you a great master. We're just going to give you an OK one.

and we're not going to even tell you what we did to it.

Jeff Graves (44:57.578)

where do I sign up? Right, you know, so it's this was. Yeah. And again, you know, they were probably like, this is good enough, let's just sell it, you know, I wanted to really take people to that sterling song. And how do I master something that has quality, that really, really good quality? And like I said, the components and stuff I'm using SSL.

Brian Funk (44:59.239)

Yeah. I guess it's the AI making those decisions within those platforms. is

Jeff Graves (45:25.914)

Neve, I'm using really, really good stuff. Really, really good EQs, compression, that matters. All of that really, really does matter.

Brian Funk (45:36.177)

So when you say that, are is it running through like plug in versions of that stuff? It

Jeff Graves (45:43.318)

It's running through my 24-stage process.

Brian Funk (45:47.546)

And that's all

Jeff Graves (45:47.803)

So if you get on the site, you can actually see the 24 things that we do offer. I think they're listed there. I wasn't going to go through all 24, but again, just being very transparent, Brian, of what we're doing to their track or what we could do.

Brian Funk (45:52.155)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:57.148)

Yeah, yeah, they've then you got

Jeff Graves (46:05.926)

You as a teacher, I'm sure your students ask you a lot of questions. I was trying to kind of put all that out there just so if they did have a question, most of it was kind of answered. Well, this is what they're doing to my track. These are all good things. They can look those things up and figure out what they do. Educate yourself because those are 24 processes that no other platform in the world

Brian Funk (46:06.321)

Right.

Jeff Graves (46:33.59)

on a web based what could do. Like it's just not out, out, not out yet. And I think that was my biggest goal again was to really kind of put people in the saddle, you know, without even knowing.

Brian Funk (46:46.491)

Yeah, that's nice. Y when you've worked that hard already on something that's near and dear to you, it's nice to have that control.

Jeff Graves (46:54.394)

very passionate about it. love audio quality. I think that's really, that's really where I'm at is when you're done with the song, you know, does that, does it sound, I mean, I'm picky, man. I want my stuff to sound as clean and good as like an Adele record. I do. Why can't I achieve that? She can. Why can't I? And I think that was my whole why. There has to be a platform that we can go to that will make my song.

just sound like it was really mastered, not just masked with a bunch of EQs and such, you know, it's just like just a real high fidelity type master, you know. And, you know, I'm getting a lot of great feedback. I'm getting, things seem to be really going strong with the platform. And again, you know, just really trying to reach other audio musicians and people like yourself, you know, to really get your two sons, you know.

And would love to do a follow up. know, hey, Jeff, we've had 10 of our clients, know, hit your and we interviewed them all. We'd love to interview again. We have some questions. I think this thing will be around for a while. I'm really hoping to just gather more and more people that are really recording on their own that are like, wow, man, you really take my demo.

Brian Funk (47:59.511)

Mm.

Jeff Graves (48:12.962)

from demo to something I'm really proud of, man. And to me, that's hard, That makes my heart pump. That's music, right? And I think that's what we all try to create music for, for that finished process. This is it. When that finished process just isn't up to par, man, that's a kick in the head. Man, you spent all that time and this is all you got?

And then you think, well, where did I go wrong? What did I do? You know, I'm not an audio engineer then. Man, I went to the wrong studio. I knew we should have used this microphone on my guitar or my vocals. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You probably have everything good. It's just you're mastering, And your mastering could be the most important because when people listen to your track, does it sound great on everything they play it on? Because that's mastering. Anything else is joke.

Brian Funk (48:45.178)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (49:09.24)

Does it sound great on everything you play it on? And if people can say, man, it does, it does, well then your song's been mastered and it's been mastered correctly. Pat yourself on the back. You did not get ripped off from one of those other platforms, right?

Brian Funk (49:09.606)

Mm-hmm.

Jeff Graves (49:24.794)

Like you actually have something that you can go, hey, you know, yeah. And wow, these guys are so real, they even send me a certificate of what exactly they've done. Now, if I go to Sterling or I go to any LA mastering facility, they're going to do that as well, They're going to give me a certificate of what they've done, right? This is proof. This is our stamp. This is what your song came in at. This is what we did to bring it up to minus 14, et cetera, et cetera.

Brian Funk (49:54.519)

Hmm. It's very cool. You're empowering people to take their stuff to the finish line and be satisfied with it. So,

Jeff Graves (50:04.002)

And you know, I think in the long run, know, hopefully that keeps people recording more and more, right? I think you can only get so far with a mix, you know, and when you're kind of disappointed when you throw your car, your radio or something, you're just, I think it kind of takes a little bit of that drive. Why would I want to go ahead and mix another song or record? I think this is the best it's going to sound. And I'm not happy with that. I think that was me.

Brian Funk (50:08.667)

Yeah.

Jeff Graves (50:28.192)

I want something better, you know. All these other people are getting really, really great recordings. How do I do that? And, you know, we went to a professional studio. We paid quite a bit of money, you know. Real nice SSL board. All your, you know, neve pre's and just all the bells and whistles. We had all of it. It was great, you know. But once that mix was done, it just, it still didn't have that power.

You know, and that's just something you get from mastering that I was frustrated with and I thought, you know what? I'm going to have this mastered. I wasn't happy with it, but once I finished my product, I remastered those tracks and those tracks I think sound really, really good. You know, they're very full. So. Quite an accomplishment, you know, and hopefully some people feel the same way, you know, it keeps them recording. That's that's the ticket.

Brian Funk (51:18.456)

Super cool. Well Yeah. Well people can try for themselves, right? You've got the you got the lufts check that they can check out so they can see where their tracks sitting and you've got

samples they can hear they af as they're working and test them out. So no obligation, right? Which is really cool. lovelang dot studio. Love spelled L U V Lang dot studio. I'm glad we got a chance to talk and I I can see your excitement and passion for what you're doing and it's a very nice mission you have.

Jeff Graves (51:41.857)

Absolutely.

Jeff Graves (51:59.203)

Do know where the name came from?

Brian Funk (52:02.777)

No, I have no idea.

Jeff Graves (52:04.888)

So what do you think of lovelang.studio? What comes to mind? Anything? Just curious.

Brian Funk (52:10.438)

Well, love, you know, passion, of course. I no I don't know. I don't know.

Jeff Graves (52:21.69)

And I kind of wanted to be hidden, you know, but to me it's kind of, there you go. I mean, you know, it's the love for music, you know, and I think love, it's my love for music is really love laying, know, but I think music is a lot of people's language, you know, and I thought it was a really appropriate name because this is the final step for something that you hopefully love, hopefully you cherish.

Brian Funk (52:25.358)

Love language? Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (52:42.096)

Yeah.

Jeff Graves (52:50.658)

hopefully your song has meaning and meaning to other people. I mean, we can go on and on and on about that, right? And I just think that language of music, you know, it sits with a lot of people. And I think it comes from my experience of loving my music, but never really hitting that language of love, right? You know, just, there was always some obstacle that, well, maybe if you get signed with a major artist, yeah, they'll take care of all that.

Brian Funk (53:05.072)

Definitely.

Brian Funk (53:12.71)

Mm.

Jeff Graves (53:20.408)

not a major artist, man, but I got some really good ideas. My friends got some really good ideas, and man, we got some really good tracks. You want those to really blow up. You want them finished. You can't finish a song without mastering it correctly. And I think that that's really where the name kind of came from a little bit. So I was kind of curious if it was that obvious or not.

Brian Funk (53:44.643)

didn't strike me right away, but yeah, I I g I get it now. But I mean, yeah, it's

Jeff Graves (53:47.172)

That's good, that's good. Cause you wanna throw a bunch of love in there. Be like, what's he talking about? Love. He gonna get all lovey-dovey on us? What's going on?

Brian Funk (53:52.679)

No, it's it's a good thing 'cause I I don't think there's anybody that gets this far without a love for it. there's a lot of more sensible ways to make yourself miserable, right? But cool. We'll send people to lovelang.studio. thanks for taking the t time to talk, Jeff, and thank you to everyone for listening.

Jeff Graves (54:02.104)

Yeah, definitely. And I just thought man love language, right? Very true.

Very, very true.

Jeff Graves (54:19.342)

Hey Brian, I really appreciate the time and I'll tell you what if anybody would like to have any questions or you know they want to reach out to me personally Jeff at loveling so jeff at luvlang.studio

100 Year Old Piano
Ableton Live Pack

A collection of Ableton Live Instruments made from multi-samples of my 100 year-old upright piano. Each instrument captures the character, personality, and charm of this vintage piano. multi-sampled to reel-to-reel tape and built into a versatile Ableton Live Instrument Rack.

• Macro Controls and Variation Presets for a wide range of sounds.

• Natural Sounding Piano

• Reel to Reel Tape Piano

• Felt Piano

• Reversed Pianos

• Piano Reverb and Lo-Fi Piano Effect Racks

Requires Ableton Live 12.4 Lite or Above

The 100 Year Old Piano

About 15 years ago, I bought a 1913 Kranich & Bach upright piano from the local Salvation Army. It was clear that whoever owned it played it quite a bit. The finish on the keys is faded, the hammers are worn down, and some of the pedals don’t work quite right. It makes a lot of mechanic noises, but man does it have soul.

I often wonder who played it. It’s likely that it outlived a few different owners. It will probably outlive me. I think part of its charm is the spirit of those players living on through the strings.

Over the past century it has developed its own unique sound and personality. The strings have lived through two world wars, the invention of television and rock and roll, as well as the moon landing. The worn hammers and mechanics are those of a piano that has been played by many. It has soul. This piano has a gravity and weight to every note that makes it a joy to play.

The 100 Year Old Piano Ableton Live Instruments

The life and character of the piano transfers to the Ableton Live Instruments, complete with occasional creaks and noises one would expect of a 100 year old instrument. You get Macro Controls to tailor the piano to fit your needs. Add effects, filter out frequencies, adjust the noise of the initial attack as the hammer moves to the string, and even decide how often and how loud the dampers will be when you release notes!

Included Presets:

• 100 Year Old Piano

• 100 Year Old Piano Reversed

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• 100 Year Old Piano Reverb

See and Hear the 100 Year Old Piano in Action

Sometimes sample-based instruments are so meticulously recorded, edited, and constructed that we lose the life and feel of the original instrument. Thanks to 100 years of life, the 100-Year-Old Piano rings with energy and life in every note.

This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Ableton Live’s Drum Sampler.

• Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

• Ask - Participate in the discussion and ask questions.

• Do - Apply the lesson in a short activity. Get feedback and ask follow-up questions.

Join the Music Production Club and attend our meetings live.

Your Music Production Club membership gives you access to:

• My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

• The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

• Live Meetings Over Zoom - Meet with me and the MPC community online! Make music together, share tips and techniques, and give and receive feedback on your music.

• Music Production Club Exclusives - Ableton Live Packs, Templates, Samples, Presets, and more that are only available to members of the MPC.

• Educational Materials - My Video Course, Books, and Documents to help you level up your music.

• Our Online Community - Share your music with and get support from our thriving Discord community. and Monthly Live Meetings over Zoom.

• Bonus Materials - Free stuff from my store as well as gifts from some musical friends!

• Special Offers - MPC members get 50% off at my store and special discounts from music companies.

Listen to the full recording of Some Good Evil at Fadeley’s, July 28, 2026!

Tim spoke to me about the production of Reverso. We touched on songwriting, arranging, and collaboration. Tim shared how he likes to move fast and commit to his sounds by printing them with outboard gear and effects. We covered a lot of ground from practical techniques to philosophical approaches. 

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Reverso album by Tim Atlas - https://timatlas.ffm.to/reverso

• "Reverso" Music Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhrC6PP8g9c

• Tim Atlas Website - https://www.timatlas.co

• Tim's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@timatlas

• Tim's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/timothyatlas/

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.83)

All right, Tim, welcome to the music production podcast. Good to have you, man.

Tim Atlas (00:06.473)

Okay.

Tim Atlas (00:14.264)

Thank you for having me, man.

Brian Funk (00:17.842)

Great job on the new EP reverse so been listening to it a lot. I mentioned to you before we hit record. it's really nice this time of year. It's like late spring, it's getting starting to get hot, driving around with the windows open. it's a great sound, good feels, really nice work, great production. Well done.

Tim Atlas (00:38.21)

Dude, thank you so much. Yeah. It's like, I don't know, in LA there's there's not so much weather, you know, it's kind of it's kind of like one thing. So it's nice to hear that it can exist in in other climates.

Brian Funk (00:47.208)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (00:55.51)

It's becoming like it probably is there. So it it's very triumphant after the long winter. We had a lot of snow and cold and so yeah. This punctuates it well. Yeah. Yeah, so I I heard a lot of really cool influences in it too. like if you would have told me some of these songs came out in like maybe like the seventies, like in

Tim Atlas (00:58.89)

Yeah, nice.

Tim Atlas (01:04.979)

I know, yeah, I dodged that one.

Brian Funk (01:22.13)

kinda like an R and B vein. I I'm just hearing like shylights and stylistics type of thing. I mean some great stuff, especially like the production, but also like your vocal quality has really got that soft melodic tone to it. It sounds great.

Tim Atlas (01:27.853)

Amazing.

Tim Atlas (01:39.137)

Thank you, man. Yeah, that that's that's that's high praise right there. I but I love all that stuff. So definitely, definitely referenced.

Brian Funk (01:41.694)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:48.05)

Yeah. But you got like other stuff too. As as it went on, I I started to pick up on like more of the guitar playing, kind of felt a little more like indie rock stuff. I'm curious if you know, is this like just sort of the way things can come together or was it like a conscious effort to blend different influences on your part?

Tim Atlas (02:08.987)

it's not really a conscious effort. It's just something that I do because I grew up around like so many different types of of music and I can't really ever make a decision on on what I wanna sound like or what I wanna do. So I just like create and hope that

like my natural tendencies shine through and become the thread that kind of like connects all the songs, you know? I've spent like so much time thinking about okay, like I want to be like in this like pocket of music. but I feel like it's it's sort of wasted bandwidth because I just I don't want to create like that ever. so yeah tried to figure out a way to just like glue the thing without thinking so much about it.

Brian Funk (03:04.785)

Hm. That's actually nice to hear. 'cause I've heard a lot of the opposite advice to like, no, dial in, be the the guy that does this thing, you know, that's gonna be your wheelhouse. And I don't know, may there might be some truth to that, but I I like myself as well, like so many types of music I wanna make, so many styles I wanna explore that I I almost can never do it. Maybe for the length of an E P or an album I can stick in a lane, but

Tim Atlas (03:17.865)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:34.219)

Not much longer than that.

Tim Atlas (03:34.397)

Yeah. It's interesting, man, because like I've I've had a few people like other artists come up to me and say, like, man, like you look like you like know who you are. You know, like you know like the type of music that you make. And I'm like, that's like not true at all. I actually have no idea. I'm just kind of like going with it. I think there there are threads like that I've that I've recognized where I'm just like, okay.

Brian Funk (03:53.853)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (04:05.008)

I should put a Juno in this because that's sort of like a recognizable thing that I do. Like there's there there are some, you know, intentional things, but for the most part I'm I'm just trying to to go with the flow and and and trust in the process.

Brian Funk (04:21.627)

Yeah. Well I think that's like how you get your voice really. You know, if you're trying to do a specific thing all the time, sometimes you kind of are more emulating and trying to reproduce. Whereas when you let these like curiosities happen and you follow them, you can really discover where you are and what works for you and what you enjoy doing, what you're good at and surprise yourself a little bit.

Tim Atlas (04:27.698)

Sorry.

Tim Atlas (04:49.5)

Hundred percent, man. Yeah. And it sort of informs like the next project and the next project. And I just feel like it's a it's a process, man. So as much as sometimes it sounds like I've figured out who I am and and what I wanna make, it's it just like kind of veers into the next thing, you know.

Brian Funk (05:00.155)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (05:09.373)

Yeah, absolutely. When did you start working on this record? Reverso.

Tim Atlas (05:17.735)

I started working on it in 2025. I got my studio together. just like spending months like treating it and and of course getting new gear. and yeah, it's so funny, man, because like I got all this gear and I got a tape machine and I'm like stoked on everything. But at the end of the day, like

Brian Funk (05:34.203)

Tim Atlas (05:48.622)

I had to write the songs, you know? And I feel like I get so caught up in in computer world that sometimes I forget about the song. So for this record, I got the studio ready, I got all my toys together, and then I just like ignored it and tried to write the songs like just with guitar and vocal. so yeah, a weird like three sixty, but

Brian Funk (06:11.901)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (06:18.276)

Yeah, it was it was about in twenty twenty five that that I started just like going back to basics.

Brian Funk (06:23.899)

Yeah. I saw a lot of cool video of your studio on your Instagram. And it looks like a good place to hang out, nice, bright. And I I did notice the Juno on the rack of synths you had there. Yeah.

Tim Atlas (06:29.081)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (06:33.733)

you know on the rack. Yeah. Yeah, dude. I love my my synth rack, but like it fell like while I was I was like doing laundry and I'm an idiot and I like was like hanging jackets on on the wall and I guess jackets are heavy and and it all just came like

Brian Funk (06:46.26)

no.

Brian Funk (06:58.237)

I guess just enough.

Tim Atlas (07:02.092)

tumbling down upon me. So the the Juno still works, although the the resonance slider just like fell off. So but yeah man. No the studio's great. it's like in the downstairs area of my place and and yeah no it's it's been really like cozy and nice to have people over just like as like a really comfortable

Brian Funk (07:13.061)

Yeah. man.

Tim Atlas (07:31.684)

place to you know make whatever.

Brian Funk (07:34.203)

Hm. Yeah, there's a lot of ways y you mentioned like writing the songs. I think when you're in the computer and playing with your gear, it's fun to sort of write and produce and experiment at the same time. But something like a tape machine gets you honest. You 'cause you can't do like all those like kind of tricks of looping and bringing stuff in and out. So you you have to really know where you're going, like start to finish with with an idea before you start

Bringing that thing into the mix.

Tim Atlas (08:04.523)

Yeah. Yeah, man. It's really nice, like the tactile stuff too, you know. I just like turning knobs and, you know, pressing like the left-right button and like the, you know, pressing three buttons to record. And it is fun, but I've I've actually made it so that it's sort of an analog digital like hybrid. So a lot of the time I'm just recording the vocal.

Brian Funk (08:11.676)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (08:20.816)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (08:32.525)

Getting it right and then sending it from Ableton into the tape machine, sometimes into like this spring verb and then like back into Ableton, like after it's printed to tape. So a little more forgiving, but definitely, definitely you know, different territory.

Brian Funk (08:44.102)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (08:52.794)

Yeah. I I do something very similar. I have one just behind where you are right now. and it's fun to bounce things to tape, to just get some character and see what happens to it, but then bring it back and now it's this kind of it's like another sample I guess that you can play around with. But it's you.

Tim Atlas (08:59.265)

Uh-huh.

Tim Atlas (09:15.436)

Totally. Yeah. I noticed that it like like especially for vocals, like your ear fatigue doesn't really like set in as fast. Cause I I like to saturate my vocals a lot. but when I printed it to tape, it just like tamed everything. And it was really nice. and that's what you hear like on like all throughout the record. But yeah, man.

Brian Funk (09:42.064)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (09:42.933)

Definitely a a world that that I unlocked during this during the making of Reversa.

Brian Funk (09:48.779)

yeah, that's cool. You found some new territory. I guess that's why you get excited for the next thing, right? 'Cause like, now they did that. You know, your vocals sound really smooth on the record. that was something I wanted to ask you about. I'm kinda surprised to hear like you like to saturate a lot because they don't have like the distorted saturated sound, but it's

Tim Atlas (09:50.226)

Yeah. Exactly.

More toys, more toys.

Brian Funk (10:16.9)

It's very smooth, I guess, subtle warmth, I guess you're getting out of it then. So how d how do you like to approach them?

Tim Atlas (10:20.094)

Yeah. Yeah, man. Thank you. so for vocals, what am I doing?

Brian Funk (10:27.632)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Atlas (10:33.374)

I guess it like varied from song to song. for only loves to blame. Definitely had like that tapey thing going on. And then I I bought a a spring reverb. And yeah. And I tracked like some of the scratch vocals through it and just like printed it just to like interact with with the verb.

and that was really nice because that informed like a lot of the melodies and and and the performance. and but yeah, I mean as far as like vocal production, I'm always stacking. I'm a big stacker. I love like third harmonies and fourths and fifths and until I feel like I'm doing too much. I feel like that's a good thing with vocals. You should do more.

Brian Funk (11:30.352)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (11:32.414)

but yeah, nothing out of the ordinary, man. I'm just I'm just kind of playing around till something works. But I have a nice little like chain in here. and and yeah, just trying to turn like as many real knobs as possible. and and and seeing where I land. But yeah.

Brian Funk (11:54.033)

Hm. Yeah, well that's nice. And I guess, when you get those real knobs, y you don't get to rely on the preset. Right? Like 'cause you can dial it in one day like, I really love the way my vocal sound and save that preset as like a a rack or whatever you got going on and while that's very nice, sometimes you just sort of stay there. You know, you don't try new things out.

Tim Atlas (12:03.76)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (12:18.621)

Totally. Yeah. I'm a big like printer too. Like I you know, like optionality is so nice, but I think we're really like cursed with with optionality. There's just like so many things we can do, man. So for me, I'm just like, let's make it sound good and then let's commit you know. And my mixer doesn't, you know, he doesn't appreciate that, but

Brian Funk (12:47.174)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Atlas (12:48.189)

I don't know. I just feel like however you can get the idea down like as quick as possible and have it be, you know, as much of the final thing in the beginning, like that's that's kind of where I like to land.

Brian Funk (13:06.284)

Mm. Okay. That is a couple of threads to pull on here. You you've definitely tapped into something that comes up a lot when I talk with people and we have these conversations is I and I think it's like the modern musician's problem is there's so many options. Like we can do so much. It's amazing. It's all of my dreams come true when I was a kid with a four track, wishing I could have even just more tracks or other instruments. But now we got it and it's

Tim Atlas (13:11.302)

Okay.

Brian Funk (13:34.938)

It's a problem that you don't know where to go. But that that method and and Ableton Live just added the the bounce in place features, which I'm just crazy about because you can just commit with like a quick click and what you had is n now it's there and now you have to react to it. Instead of making something new, I'm recording my new track and it

Tim Atlas (13:48.5)

crazy about because you can just commit but I can quit play.

Brian Funk (14:01.231)

Well, this is a really cool sound, but now I gotta fix the vocal. Now I gotta go fix the snare. Now I and then you by the time you get back around to that track you just recorded, you realize it doesn't fit anymore either. And you just kinda tweak and tweak. But when you commit, you're stuck and now now you get creative on how and how to figure out to put that into your music and add to it.

Tim Atlas (14:07.108)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (14:12.031)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (14:24.002)

Yeah, man. Yeah, that's exactly that's kind of exactly why I like to do it, because I just I don't want to think about it anymore. Like I made the decision, it was my intuition, and it's like time to think about the next thing.

Brian Funk (14:35.259)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (14:39.109)

But the your mixing engineer sometimes says all that reverb.

Tim Atlas (14:42.552)

Yeah, he's like, Do you have a dry version? Like, what? No. Sorry, man. But I'm getting better.

Brian Funk (14:51.105)

How often would you say, that's a problem versus h it moves you forward in the writing process, in the producing process?

Tim Atlas (15:03.522)

great question. I would say it's like eighty twenty.

Yeah, I think like for the most part and a lot of a lot of the effects that I'm printing, like during the performance, they're sort of light, you know? Like just enough to get a bit of a vibe. I'm not I'm not like smashing it like crazy and you know, reverb at eleven or anything, but

Yeah, I feel like just enough to to give me a little something. and like that's not to say I don't tweak after, you know? Like I think I'm still like working on it, but it's just like one less thing that I have to think about. So yeah, I would say most of the time, like I don't I don't really regret it. but there are certain moments where it's like, ugh, I wish I

Brian Funk (16:06.757)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (16:08.341)

I wish I had the dry.

Brian Funk (16:11.087)

Yeah, okay. I 'cause that's kinda how I feel and that's what I say a lot too, is like, look, yeah, once in a while, you know, that that bounce or that print is gonna mess you up and you'll wish. But for all the other times where you move to the next step because of it, I like All right, so once in a while a bridge is burnt, but you know, at least you know

Tim Atlas (16:24.062)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Atlas (16:33.387)

Yeah. I mean like I'm just trying to not to be in my own way, you know? Like I'm just I'm just at the end of the day, like, yeah, I produce my own stuff and I I love producing music, but I just wanna write a good song and like serve the song and and workflow is is just like super important for me to to tap into that.

Brian Funk (16:39.951)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (17:02.044)

So I just gotta like keep it moving, you know? Especially when someone's in the studio and you're like producing for them. Just like I don't wanna I don't wanna like heater like the whole time while they're sitting on the couch like in the back, like, you know, just waiting for me to get it perfect so we could write the verse.

Brian Funk (17:10.275)

Right.

Brian Funk (17:20.355)

Yeah. Right. You're like trying to scoop out some resonant frequency in a snare drum for fifteen minutes and they're now they're uninspired, you know. They forgot what the idea was. Yeah. I think that's true when you're solo too. you know, I get I see that a lot when I work with my bandmates.

Tim Atlas (17:29.621)

Yeah. And then all the momentum's gone. Yeah, man.

Brian Funk (17:44.528)

The it's like, okay, okay, yeah, they don't have time for this. Like w I'll figure that out when they're not here. But when it's me, it's it's very easy to just be like, Well, you know what? I'm gonna really get to the bottom of this little noise and once I do that, like I'm out of it and that's it's the same kind of thing, like, I've I'm not feeling this idea anymore. I forget where it was gonna go.

Tim Atlas (17:57.013)

Totally.

Tim Atlas (18:06.013)

Yeah, a hundred percent man. I'm definitely fueled by anxiety, you know, that like that that everyone's like having a good time.

Brian Funk (18:14.435)

Yeah. I yeah, well that's part of it, right? Like you're not just producing the music, you're kind of producing the whole energy of the day and keeping everyone in especially in the more traditional sense of producer, like in the in the older days, like they weren't really touching the controls too much. They were more making sure the production itself is happening and moving forward.

Tim Atlas (18:25.929)

Yeah. That's one thing.

Tim Atlas (18:42.333)

Honestly, like vibe techs, you know? They're just like really like cognizant of like the energy in the room and then like shifting things when they need to be shifted. That's something I'm still working on. That's like, I feel like that is I don't know if if you can actually learn that. I feel like it's a personality trait, you know?

Brian Funk (18:45.275)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (19:05.335)

Mm.

Yeah, it's almost like hospitality or like a different industry. Right. Yeah.

Tim Atlas (19:11.22)

It really is. Hospitality therapist, producer, engineer.

Brian Funk (19:19.323)

Very true, but that's important. I guess too when when you're at a certain level, like everyone's kinda good at what they do. Now you kinda need those people that are, you know, fun to work with and keep you moving and you know, easy to be around.

Tim Atlas (19:37.469)

Yeah. Yeah. Super important.

Brian Funk (19:42.373)

Hmm. So you're saying you really like to capture as much of it as you can right in the early stages, those you know, ideas, the feelings, whatever it is when you're writing.

Tim Atlas (19:55.559)

Yeah, to some degree. I mean like every day is is a new day, you know? Like I think that's the goal as far as like like I sort of know when I have something. in that first session, you know? And when you know that you have something, then then I think you can sort of get into the weeds with it. But

Brian Funk (20:05.006)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Atlas (20:23.11)

Yeah, for the most part, man, I think like

I'm just trying to serve the song as much as I can, like in in the beginning, like and not getting in my way of you know, all the bells and whistles.

Brian Funk (20:39.46)

Hm. I think pretty much all of my favorite musicians are serving the song. Right? Like, none of my favorite guitar players are the ones that are playing the most notes per bar, you know. singers, it's not like the most vocal runs or anything like that.

Tim Atlas (20:48.636)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (20:57.169)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (21:05.7)

But it does seem like something that maybe a lot of people don't understand. Do you mind explaining what you actually mean by serve the song? Like I mean, it should be like music one one probably, but

Tim Atlas (21:17.081)

Yeah, no, no. what do I mean by that?

Tim Atlas (21:26.318)

I mean like at the end of the day the the the song is is the melody and the chords. and you have to like make sure that everything surrounding that is like sort of supporting those two things, right? I mean like that's basically like what a song is. so I don't know, I just feel like

Because of the optionality and like you could really produce a song out in so many different ways. I just I I try to keep it like pretty simple. and I try to make sure that I mean like our sessions just get so huge, you know. We have like 60 tracks, you know. but I like

Brian Funk (22:19.844)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (22:25.611)

when like one synth patch is is doing the thing and it's serving the the purpose, right? Like

I don't know if I want to add another like synth patch on top of it and then like add an arpeggiator on top of it and then add like a counter melody on top of it. Like I just I don't think that that ever really sounds great. Like when I listen to music, I kind of want to know like what I'm hearing, you know? I'm like, okay, there's like there's a pad right there. And there's like like a guitar melody there.

Brian Funk (22:54.159)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (23:07.22)

But like because we can track as many things as possible, like

I don't know. I think a a lot of us do that. And it takes some like restraint to really like highlight the the melody and the chords and the musicality. Does that make sense?

Brian Funk (23:16.931)

Mm.

Brian Funk (23:29.666)

It makes a lot of sense, yeah. I can remember when I first started

working on music in a computer where you had infinite tracks and it was like a badge of honor. This track has eighty-two you know audio tracks in it. And and like some s you're like, wow, how did you do you know, how did you get that one? And you almost feel like I'm not legit if I don't have scrolling, you know, meters in my track where you just keep going down and down and down.

Tim Atlas (23:42.573)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (23:50.73)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (24:00.813)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (24:04.056)

I feel a lot less that way now. I've I've found that it's kinda I think of it a lot. I teach high school English as a day job and I I teach music production online for Berkeley and when I have it's like s it's like I think fifteen to twenty is the number.

Tim Atlas (24:26.069)

Brian Funk (24:26.614)

Up to that, I have individuals. And I can like get to know you, I can get to know your writing or your how you make music and your style. Once it gets past that though, it's no longer individuals, it's a crowd. And it's kind of that way with the tracks and the music. Like I can hear your pad. That's that's a cool like Juno pad in there and that nice guitar part. But once there's like much more than that, it's like, it's the wall of sound effect. And I I

Tim Atlas (24:52.873)

Yes.

Brian Funk (24:54.559)

It might sound nice, but I I don't know what I'm hearing anymore. It's just a lot of stuff going on.

Tim Atlas (24:59.98)

That's such a good way to put it. Yeah. It really is a crowd, you know? And it's hard to like point out like who's who because there's there's so much shit going on.

Brian Funk (25:09.67)

Yeah, right. Right. I think the challenge for me is that when I'm making the song, I you know, you get to know every one of those eighty two tracks you've just put down, right? Because you've spent time on it and

Tim Atlas (25:24.255)

Mm.

Brian Funk (25:27.844)

For every single track in a song, it's almost like I'm the one guitar player in the band that wants to be the loudest. You know, like I'm gonna turn my guitar up because I'm the most important. But I feel that way almost like about every track in the song. 'Cause I I put them all there. So and I also think as you get familiar with it, you you you know all the tricks and twists and turns that are happening in the music that you kinda wanna throw something else in as a surprise almost for yourself.

Tim Atlas (25:36.235)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (25:43.817)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (25:56.386)

I'm always trying to figure out how to know when I'm going too far. 'Cause I'm too close, really.

Tim Atlas (26:03.826)

Yeah. I mean, it's a hard one, man, especially when you're when you're producing and spending a lot of time like by yourself, you know, you're just like grinding your gear gears until you're like, is this good? Does this suck? and then before you know it, you have like 80 demos and like you have no idea what to do. But one thing that's humbling for me is when I pass a session onto a mixer and

Brian Funk (26:14.432)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (26:19.723)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Atlas (26:33.767)

They sort of have an interpretation of what's supposed to pop out. And all of a sudden, like a lot of those like little elements are like turned down in the mix. It's like, yeah, because like when you first heard it, it's probably like more distracting than than you thought. Than I thought, you know? so yeah.

Brian Funk (26:48.649)

Mm.

Brian Funk (26:57.655)

Hm. Yeah.

Tim Atlas (27:04.295)

That's another process where it's just like a whole a whole other, you know. I don't know. But

Brian Funk (27:13.101)

Yeah, yeah. Well w when they're they don't care, right? Like they have no emotional attachment to anything in the song, so you know, yeah, we could w I'm just gonna pull those down. Yeah.

Tim Atlas (27:21.768)

True. True. They definitely don't care as much as you. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (27:27.895)

Yeah, I I was talking to somebody that does guitar tracks and you know, like remotely. So they'll like do a session and record a bunch of guitars and send off like, you know, ten tracks of guitars and then when they hear the final it's like it's just that one. You know, like they threw everything out like I thought it was being helpful, like, you know, give their money's worth, but really they they just want the one little thing and just too much.

Tim Atlas (27:43.497)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (27:51.592)

Mmm, yeah, yeah. I see that. For sure, man.

Brian Funk (27:57.242)

Yeah, it's a tricky thing 'cause you like you said, you're alone, you're getting familiar with everything. but but the listener is really entering the world of your music for the first time. And for example, like listening to your record. it starts I think I believe the first track starts off with like a little drum fill, right? And and like suddenly you're in and

There was so much happening in my head listening to it, like, okay, like this has got like kind of a lo-fi flavor, and then there's like it's like sixties, seventies then like when you came in, I'm like, like this is l like that kind of vocal style from some of those groups I mentioned before. So and it's just happening constantly and you're you're taking in the lyrics, the chord changes.

Tim Atlas (28:42.032)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (28:51.295)

All of which every time you go and press play again, you already know. You understand it all. You have it all figured out in your head.

Tim Atlas (28:59.074)

Yeah. Yeah, context is everything, isn't it? Like that listening experience.

Brian Funk (29:02.177)

Hmm. I think it it was a nice ride though. you you kind of introduced a lot of the different elements, not only like per song, like kind of little by little, but as the album went on too, like there it seemed like the more guitar stuff came in later and more of like an almost indie rock, psych rock kind of sound going on that

wasn't really there in the beginning, but you warmed us up. You like said, Okay, here's the world, but there's a lot of like little countries in here we're gonna go to

Tim Atlas (29:35.749)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's true, man. that it's it's got me nostalgic for for the EP. I'm like, okay, where where did I go? definitely like started out in that sort of sixties, seventies like area where I was like doing a lot of like spring reverbs and tape stuff and like like

Brian Funk (29:48.715)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (30:05.585)

in only loves to blame and reverso. I think like I went into couple up or anchor after that. and

I think like couple up was almost like a a reference to a lot of stuff that I've I've put out, you know. I think I love taking like artistic liberties and and trying new things that maybe my audience haven't heard. But I also think that

you shouldn't alienate your audience as well, you know, like giving them a a little familiarity, I think, is a good thing. And if you can find a middle ground where it's like, okay, maybe I've done a version of this before. but I'm doing like a couple different things and I've never, you know, saying about the subject matter or

Brian Funk (30:50.76)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (30:58.265)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (31:15.254)

you know, stuff like that where I just feel like, yeah, maybe it wasn't so much in that like 70s realm, but it still felt like a thread into all the other stuff that I've done, like within the context of of my like library, you know. so and on top of that, like I really liked I really liked some of those songs that were like.

Brian Funk (31:35.779)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (31:45.497)

less like vintage inspired. And I was also going back to them, you know, during the making of the record. I'm just like, okay, how else can I can I glue these songs? Like what other elements can I take from, you know, only loves to blame and put it into like 10th mile. and sometimes that worked where it was like, okay, like this feels like a nice glue.

and sometimes it didn't work. And I was just like, okay, you know what? Fuck it. I like the song and like I I want it on this record because it feels like true to who I am at this moment in time. You know? So it's like a a give and take as far as like creative decisions and just like what I really love and just want to do.

Brian Funk (32:27.767)

Right.

Brian Funk (32:38.713)

Hm. So that's cool. So you're once you have like some of these songs, you're kind of thinking about like, all right, how do we make work together in an album? So you're bringing maybe like, is it like sounds or kind of production choices that you're kind of pulling from one and bringing into the other?

Tim Atlas (32:39.915)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (32:59.56)

Exactly. Yeah. So like, you know, you saw the Juno, like that sort of makes an appearance and everything. like even like the little like tape stuff that I did sort of subtly makes its way. the way that I like produce the vocal too, like as far as like the stacks and like the harmonies, like I sort of trust in the process, like it's it's really not different.

like throughout each song. Unless I want like a single vocal like up front. I think like the philosophy like still remains the same. I know I was like messing around with like real drums versus like drum machines and like programmed drums. So like I threw a drum machine and couple up like against like the more real

like drum sample reverso. I did a similar thing where it was like some more like drum machine electronic elements against like the real drum sound that my friend Effa recorded at his studio. so yeah just like you know finding all of like the little elements and making sure that you know a couple things sort of like are borrowed from

One song to another.

think that makes sense. Yeah. But that's you know, that's that's what I did.

Brian Funk (34:32.589)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's nice. And it it does feel very cohesive and I guess those things make a big difference. I really like the drum production on the record a lot. I was almost wondering if some of the snares or maybe even the kits were going through like guitar amps or something, but I'm guessing maybe that's the spring reverb sound I'm hearing.

Tim Atlas (34:55.74)

Yeah, I use this this this plug-in. what's it called? It's the telefunken echo mixer. Do you use that one? it's interesting. So it does have like it has a spring like built into it, but it's like these like three preamps that kind of interact with each other. So I put that on a bus. and so I was like sending a lot of the drums.

Brian Funk (35:06.923)

No, I don't know it.

Tim Atlas (35:25.371)

I sent a lot of shit to the to that bus. But yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely played around with that one and then obviously like like my TAC tape machine sending it through there. I also sent some stuff through the Chroma console. and like yeah, it's a workhorse, man. It can do it can do so much.

Brian Funk (35:27.605)

Huh. Yeah.

Brian Funk (35:46.277)

I got one right there next to me. Love that thing. Really can.

Tim Atlas (35:55.6)

But yeah, like sometimes I would throw it through like the cassette texture and like send it back and then layer that in like with the more like clean stuff. so yeah, just a lot of like layering and like tinkering until I find like a little middle ground. But yeah, thanks, man. That means a lot. I like spend so much time thinking about drums. So

Brian Funk (36:00.153)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (36:20.396)

Yeah, they sound cool. they've got a a good like you know, one of the things I think so important about drums is like they have to sound like they're somewhere. and and that doesn't necessarily mean like a lot of reverb either. some t I like a lot of the sound I think of those old records are pretty dead drums actually. And but

But they you know, they're they're just in a real place, so they they it has to come across and I thought there was a lot of cool stuff happening with yours. I was wondering if it was coming out of some sort of speaker or yeah, that makes sense though, going through something like that and like in the chroma console type of thing, yeah.

Tim Atlas (36:56.063)

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of those drums are like mono too. So it it is interesting, man. what else did I what else did I use?

Brian Funk (37:04.674)

Hm.

Tim Atlas (37:12.35)

I also used like the UADX like Ocean Ways studio stuff. because you know, this room is pretty dead. and then also I'm just like taking samples from online. So like I'm definitely putting a lot of stuff in a room, like to make it feel like sort of live.

Brian Funk (37:30.252)

Yeah. Right. Yeah, it comes across. It's really cool. how are you running it like through your outboard gear? Are you using like external audio device and live or are you just r write out the outputs on your interface?

Tim Atlas (37:46.362)

I have a patch bay. Yeah. So like I have my Apollo like linked up with my patch bay. And and so that's just been just been like a game changer. Another thing that like I never did before this record. So like I can run you know the synth through the Chrome console, like into whatever. And that's the kind of optionality I like though.

Brian Funk (38:13.367)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (38:15.522)

But yeah, so the patch bay has been big.

Brian Funk (38:20.854)

Yeah, I got one a few years back in same way. I'm like, everything's connected. All I gotta do is just move a couple cables and you know, you're in. And that that's how I have the Chroma console too. It's right in there. and I've got the external audio device inside Alive saved as a preset 'cause that device allows you to send the audio out and then back in all within one little device. So you drop it in like a plug-in and

Tim Atlas (38:25.965)

Yeah.

Exactly.

Tim Atlas (38:46.532)

I should be I should be doing that.

Brian Funk (38:51.508)

yeah, it's it it's a great one to that kind of stuff is so handy like workflow, right? Like it's really fast. I just drop it in like a plug in and as long as I have it patched in, I can put it on anything I want and and since there's only one Chroma console, you almost always have to print it, which is another kind of cool thing about using it, 'cause if you want to ever use it again on a track, I mean unless you're doing like a bus or something, but

Tim Atlas (38:57.709)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (39:06.219)

Amazing.

Tim Atlas (39:12.014)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:20.094)

I wind up printing it a lot and now I'm stuck with it. In in a good way though.

Tim Atlas (39:22.442)

Yeah. Yeah, dude. No. Absolutely. We are the same. I love that.

Brian Funk (39:30.24)

Yeah, that was cool. so in the press release, I guess it was, one of the things you were kinda dealing with as far as like lyrically and and thematically in the album was you moved back to LA. but being in the same place, but it's different. now

Tim Atlas (39:51.019)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:59.18)

When I read that I was like, see, that reminds me a lot of like making a song where you come up with maybe the a lot of the idea tends to happen pretty quick. I think just because you're making the big decision, chords, melody, you know, like rhythm. Like those are like core decisions, foundational. But sometimes you come back to the song a day, a week later, and you're not the same person. You've changed. It's it's that old like

Tim Atlas (40:28.584)

Mm-hmm. wow. I haven't heard of that. That's so good though.

Brian Funk (40:28.617)

I think it's a Buddhist thing where you can't go in the same river twice 'cause the river's always changing and so are you. So

Brian Funk (40:38.325)

Yeah, so like I I've been thinking about this a lot as far as like the way songs are and how we are when we're making like that day versus when we come back to them and you know, now we're kind of at a different perspective. I've l I just wanted to sort of ask you to expand on that idea w with whether it's through the songs, the lyrics or just the move in general, how that is coming back to a place that might be like home, but it's like, you know

Bizarro world version of home.

Tim Atlas (41:09.717)

Yeah. okay, yeah, there's a few there's a few sides to this question.

Tim Atlas (41:26.47)

Yeah, coming back to LA was a little different. I used to live, you know, like not very far from here. but like new businesses were popping up. I'm a little bit older, you know, so I'm not like a lot of my friends like I have I haven't seen super often or they have like babies, you know, so it's like

Brian Funk (41:55.329)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (41:56.476)

You know, they're busy, which is like, you know, awesome. But also like, you know, I don't see them as much. So yeah, a lot of the record is is sort of around that because there was a lot of duality in sort of my relationship with LA. and just like my relationships with people who live here. so it was it was definitely like

sort of discombobulating. I guess that has nothing to do with production, but that's like the that's basically the the anchor to to this record. And it's funny that you you compared it to songs because yeah like I definitely like different things on different days and especially like years apart.

Brian Funk (42:53.303)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (42:55.302)

you know, coming back here after like, I don't know, three, four years in New York. yeah, I don't like the same things, you know? And then I don't dress the same way. So, it is interesting because like you're sort of like confronting like an old version of yourself and you're like nurturing like sort of older friendships and and when it came and when it comes to the songs and like making this record,

Brian Funk (43:07.447)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Atlas (43:26.37)

I try to do it. I tried to do it quickly. because the last record that I did, it was called Enchante. And I did it over the course of like two and a half years. And I felt like it sort of lacked the glue that this one does have. just because over the course of that time, like

Like I said, like your interests are are changing like every day, every week. and and it's hard to find like the thread at the end of the day, you know? So what was really nice about this record was I kinda locked myself in here and just like really tried to write good songs. and I'm gonna go on a tangent here, but

I was having a tough time like being in my car all the time in LA. And so I bought a Vespa. And and it it it's like, you know, one of my greatest joys, honestly. I ride it like every day now and it's and it's awesome. But like the day that I bought it, I bought it from a guy that lived like 30 miles from me. And I don't know what it is about the marketing of Vespa, but they make it seem like anybody could ride one like on day one.

Brian Funk (44:28.599)

Okay, nice.

Brian Funk (44:36.481)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (44:52.111)

And so I decided to ride it to my place. And I made it twenty twenty miles, like in a straight line, because like that was the, you know, that was the route. But then I fell and then I broke my wrist like while I was making this record. And and so I couldn't play guitar for like a long time, like two months. and so that sort of forced me to like

Brian Funk (44:52.193)

What?

Brian Funk (45:10.081)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (45:17.697)

No.

Tim Atlas (45:21.507)

you know, collaborate more, work with different people, like have other guitarists come in here. I could still play piano, but I would have to like make it like vertical. Like my hand was like stuck like this. So like I was like doing some of this stuff. but yeah like while I had that sort of philosophy. Yeah, exactly.

Brian Funk (45:35.057)

well.

Stand up piano.

Tim Atlas (45:44.707)

I had that philosophy of just like, okay, like let's get it done quick. Let's like write it quick because like this is where I'm at in my life and this is like what I wanna like project to the world. Life happens, you know, and it and it took a little bit longer. And so the longer that it took, I I think it was I had to make sort of a conscious effort to like sort of stay in that stay in that mindset. but yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. Life happens and like your influences change, but you know, I th I think I made it work with this record, so I I am happy with it.

Brian Funk (46:27.978)

Hm. I think you did too. that's kind of a wild part of the story. you know, you would totally be forgiven if you, you know, took the two months off. I can't work on this, I need to play guitar, but the fact that you still pushed on and then the different ways that took you, that kind of you know, that wouldn't it I don't want to say it's like

Tim Atlas (46:53.081)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (46:57.758)

sort of making lemon made out of lemons kind of thing where, you know, you you were in this situation and you found a way to work with it. And it's so much what I think we have to do in the creative process anyway. It's just here's a problem, solve it, figure it out. And th that's like a another level, you know, physical issue like that.

Tim Atlas (47:12.332)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (47:16.981)

Yeah, man. Definitely, definitely affected the way that this record came out. because it forced me to just like get out of my comfort zone, you know. but yeah. I sometimes I forget about that because like, you know, I can play now and like I'm I'm back on the Vespa and but yeah, it is crazy to think about.

Brian Funk (47:28.405)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:38.206)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (47:42.197)

Yeah. You gotta get back on that Vespa. Metaphorically speaking. it's cool though, like that's a a good thing to take away lesson wise, you know, from what you've done that you know, you didn't let it stop you, you figured out a way and I I don't know, life has a way of doing things like that for us, throwing us the curve ball and then

Tim Atlas (47:45.535)

Yeah, dude. Number one.

Brian Funk (48:10.248)

our solutions become part of it, you know, part of the like the way this record came out. Yeah. Yeah, good thinking. getting some friends involved.

Tim Atlas (48:16.567)

Real. Real shit, man.

Tim Atlas (48:22.986)

Yeah, honestly. Yeah. I like I I really like nurtured friendships and and collaboration during that time. Cause I was like still able to, you know, like drive a session, but it it sort of exercised my producer brain, you know. Sometimes like I'll just play something because I know what I want, but it's nice to kind of like tell someone.

This is what I'm hearing. And then it's it's their interpretation of it, you know.

Brian Funk (48:56.586)

Yeah. Right. That's a that's a fun part of the whole collaboration process, right? Like you have your idea or th or someone has their idea and then it just takes you in a different direction too. The surprises of it.

Tim Atlas (49:10.602)

Yeah. Yeah, it's my favorite thing.

Brian Funk (49:13.224)

I've come to appreciate that a lot more after having a lot of time working alone, making stuff exactly the way you want it. You know, growing up playing in bands, you kind of dreamed of those powers and w you know, we'd always get frustrated at like maybe like whoever wouldn't play the part the way we wanted it or

Tim Atlas (49:31.051)

True.

Brian Funk (49:37.384)

whatnot, but now it's like, Okay, you know, yeah, I wouldn't do that, but let's see what I can do with it. And a lot of times I it makes me grow a lot figuring out how to work with what's being put towards me.

Tim Atlas (49:44.112)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (49:49.288)

Okay.

Tim Atlas (49:53.305)

It's very much like being in a band. And I think like I'm I'm I'm always chasing that feeling, you know, just because yeah, the current model of the the independent musician or or whatever it may be, like it's to do everything and just to be like, you know, a multi-instrumentalist or whatever. But

Brian Funk (50:13.78)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (50:19.908)

I loved like the camaraderie of being in a band and like the back and forth and like seeing a song come to life like amongst like other individuals. I feel like it's just like the most rewarding thing and it's also something like shared that you can you can all be like stoked on.

Brian Funk (50:37.483)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:40.97)

Right. Yeah, the getting that energy back. It's great when you're alone, you're like, Yes, this sounds awesome, but there's like knowing a high five, you know, there when you're when you're playing and sometimes especially like loud and you can't talk and you just look and like everyone's smiling and like kinda nodding their head, like unspoken, you know? Yeah.

Tim Atlas (50:47.194)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (51:00.917)

So fun, dude. So fun.

Brian Funk (51:07.712)

that feedback from other people is really valuable.

Tim Atlas (51:11.406)

Yeah. Yeah. Like the the the human interaction is is so important. Like you really do hear it, you know.

Brian Funk (51:19.602)

I mean, forever that's been how music was made, right? This whole solo guy producer thing is pretty new. I mean the only thing anywhere near that was I guess like the one man band with like the bass drum on the back and like the cymbal on the on his foot stomping around, you know. But

Tim Atlas (51:24.399)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (51:37.572)

Yeah. Yeah dude. Like that guy, that that guy had to walk so Tamapala could run, you know?

Brian Funk (51:48.018)

Yeah. There you go. That's funny. Well, you do a lot of songwriting for others as well. I mean, y congratulations, you you're won a Grammy for songwriting. I mean, that's pretty awesome.

Tim Atlas (51:51.812)

that's so good.

Tim Atlas (52:05.35)

Thanks, man. Thank you. Yeah, that's weird.

Brian Funk (52:09.909)

Yeah, it's c it's cool. th that's a that's an amazing accomplishment and I'm curious how those like kind of writing for other people maybe or even with other people is like different for you compared to by yourself.

Tim Atlas (52:27.406)

Yeah.

I when I like go into a writing session with other people, I try to like get a gauge on like what everyone does, like what their thing is, you know. because if there's like three guitarists in the room, then it's like, okay, I'm gonna pick up something else, you know? and so like that's that's like one thing that I think about like

Brian Funk (52:52.393)

Hmm. Hmm.

Tim Atlas (53:00.854)

I I I play different roles like in in different sessions, you know? So like when I'm here, it's my studio. And so like I'm sort of driving and like producing and then like writing with like the artist or like with my co-writer, like simultaneously. But sometimes when I'm going to other studios or if I'm working with another producer,

I try to I try to figure out like what my role is and like how I can add value to that session. Like why am I here, you know? so yeah, it really depends on the situation. I love doing all that stuff because it sort of informs my artist project and it like when I wear like a different hat, it sort of lets me come back to my artist stuff.

with some context and like with some like fresh ears, you know, because I was like, if I was playing in like pop world or rock world, I can come back here and like kind of do like a mixture of those things or, you know, just like yeah. So I don't know. I love doing I love doing all those things. I want to do more actually.

Brian Funk (54:24.637)

Hmm. Well that sounds like you're serving the song again. You're finding your place and stepping out of the way. If there's other guitar players, let them do their thing.

Tim Atlas (54:28.653)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (54:35.894)

I try to. I think like ego can get in the way sometimes, you know? Like sometimes you just like wanna put your stamp on a song, you know, and you're just like, okay, how can I like like contribute something? So I think lately I've been trying to fight that where it's like I will only like spew out ideas if they feel like

you know, if if I'm being like a vessel for like this artist or whatever. But yeah, I definitely am always learning and and trying to like figure out how I can be better in those situations because yeah, I do it a lot.

Brian Funk (55:24.405)

Hm. I could see how stepping out of your world, like you said, going into like a different genre. You would think maybe that would take away or make it harder to find your own stuff. But I I'd have to imagine actually the opposite is probably true. Where you get to sort of I don't know it

I'm think I'm thinking almost like acting or like Halloween costumes or something where you you kinda try on a different look and then you're like, yeah, like yeah, that's not me, but I get why I'm me, you know, over here now or I can take something maybe even from that.

Tim Atlas (55:54.157)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (56:00.65)

Right.

Tim Atlas (56:05.342)

Yeah, yeah. I think like having that context going back to to whatever it is I'm doing at the moment in for like my artist project, I think it only helps. And you know, yeah. I don't I don't really think that it ever like takes me out. I mean it does take me out and that's like that's the whole point. You know, I'm trying to like get out of this, like I'm always in this. I'm always like thinking about, you know, like the next Tim Atlas thing, but

Brian Funk (56:26.963)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (56:35.039)

It's it's it is nice to like

Try and do that for for somebody else.

Brian Funk (56:42.473)

Hm. Well, you get that perspective. I mean, I'm kinda trying to do that all the time too when watching movies or shows or listening to different music just to see what I can take from it or even just going outside and you know, being in the world, going out and you know, what what can I find that's inspiring or interesting to explore?

Tim Atlas (57:02.518)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Atlas (57:10.183)

Yeah, I think that's that's also something that like full time musicians like struggle with. I think the the dream for a lot of people is to be full time music, but when you're like always doing music, you you gotta you gotta do some different stuff. You gotta do some life stuff to inform the music, you know? Yeah.

Brian Funk (57:34.087)

Yeah. Yeah, I I don't think you necessarily have to be like the suffering. You know. This might be more from like when I grew up, like listening to like nineties grunge. It was like sort of this feeling like you have to have like a miserable life and and like find that's what you write about. I don't think it has to be that, but I do think it is important to live a little, experience things and

Tim Atlas (57:42.163)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (57:52.773)

Right, right.

Brian Funk (58:02.322)

Get out, you know. Otherwise you're just gonna start writing songs about like running your scales and your modes and

Tim Atlas (58:09.468)

Yeah. Every metaphor is just like a piece of gear. Yeah, dude. Exactly.

Brian Funk (58:15.666)

Yeah, right.

That's funny. So are you I saw some video of you guys performing. Are you doing any live shows playing out for the album at all? Or is it more just like the studio project?

Tim Atlas (58:34.492)

yeah, so we just did like school night. It was like a showcase in LA last week. And we also just announced the tour. So we're doing six shows across the US. we're gonna be in Brooklyn over at elsewhere. and that'll be after summer, so it'll it'll be in the fall. and until then, yeah, I think I am gonna be a bit of a studio rat, sort of thinking of like

Brian Funk (58:50.791)

Okay, cool.

Tim Atlas (59:03.64)

the next thing, you know, it's always the next thing, but also taking my time with it. I just bought a couple new toys that like I'm very excited about. So yeah I'm just gonna be beep booping in here all summer

Brian Funk (59:20.848)

Uhhuh. What'd you get? What are you excited about?

Tim Atlas (59:23.451)

I got the I got the Fender Tone Master Pro like modeling pedal. It's like the ant modeling and like with like all the effects and stuff. I don't know if you could actually, I wonder if I could show you. you could see it. But it has like this this like like touch screen and and you it's it's actually gigantic. but like it feels like a real like pedal.

Brian Funk (59:33.606)

okay.

Brian Funk (59:40.244)

yeah, look at that. it's huge.

Tim Atlas (59:53.474)

chain with like an amp and I don't know. I'm a very visual person and for all the live stuff like I've been using like the line six like Helix stuff and it just feels like parameters. It doesn't feel like like I'm interacting with it really. so I just got this. I'm very stoked on it because I put it into the patch bay I put it in the chroma console so now I'm running like you know

Brian Funk (59:58.953)

Hm.

Brian Funk (01:00:14.184)

Right.

Tim Atlas (01:00:22.316)

a bunch of shit through it. and then the other thing that I got was the the LM drum by Berenger. Have you seen this?

Brian Funk (01:00:24.19)

That's awesome.

Brian Funk (01:00:31.224)

cool. Yes. The like the Lindrum recreation to put it politely. Yeah.

Tim Atlas (01:00:36.29)

Yeah. Yeah, dude. Pretty much. Pretty much. I mean, like, it's a Lindrum recreation, but it also is like a sampling machine. So you can pretty much upload like samples of whatever you want. Like you can upload a whole like 909 kit to it and use like all the parameters in the same way. so yeah, I'm like you know, thinking about the next thing and

Brian Funk (01:00:47.9)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (01:01:06.911)

I feel like if I can have a few like gear staples for like the next sound, then it'll feel like another world and you know, cohesive or whatever you want to call it. But yeah. So that's what I'll be doing. Just chilling here. Fucking around in the studio.

Brian Funk (01:01:19.592)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:01:27.944)

That's cool. Yeah, I those some of those Behringer drum machines are really cool. Like there's like an OBX one too, very similar, I think, to the LM, right? It's I it they're I think they're pretty much almost look exactly the same, you know, but just the different slight differences. But I mean for the price, like that does seem pretty exciting. But that is a cool way to enter

Tim Atlas (01:01:37.912)

I haven't seen.

Tim Atlas (01:01:47.382)

Okay.

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (01:01:54.402)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:01:56.743)

a project too is you know, as much as we were talking about reducing options and all that, but to pick certain things and be like, I'm gonna figure these things out and while I'm doing it I'm gonna make some music with it. And I find that to be an ex an inspiring way to work. Maybe it might be just a little setup or some kind of something like that. Like you said, to create the world to that ties it all together.

Tim Atlas (01:02:11.787)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (01:02:25.656)

Yeah man. I feel like I grew up hearing that like new gear doesn't like buy you inspiration or something like that. But I think it does. I feel like new gear just like gets you excited and it makes you try new things. So yeah, man. I'm I'm trying to be good, but yeah, I I won't be buying anything else for for at least

Brian Funk (01:02:40.229)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:02:46.952)

Yeah, I agree.

Tim Atlas (01:02:55.328)

A little while.

Brian Funk (01:02:56.628)

I I've found like it can inspire you, but it's not gonna make you it's not gonna make your hits for you, it's not gonna make you better necessarily, but it can be something that gets you moving in different directions. So

Tim Atlas (01:03:13.459)

It will make you better. It won't make you better, that's true.

Brian Funk (01:03:17.458)

Well, I bet going on a tour like that will give you some life experiences that'll also fuel the next phase of whatever that becomes. So that's that's good you're getting out there seeing some of the world and living.

Tim Atlas (01:03:33.389)

Yeah, yeah, I love Tor. I love Tour. I love the studio more, but I also, you know, love meeting people that like have like felt something from this music. And yeah, that's another thing like Spotify and you know, like we're and algorithms. It's all just like data and numbers and it it doesn't

ever really feel real until like you meet the people that are actually listening to it. So yeah, that's gonna be really nice. but definitely bracing myself, you know, gonna hydrate and you know try and not age five years on the road.

Brian Funk (01:04:10.502)

Yes. And yeah, the body ages rapidly. Yeah. Well that's awesome. I well, I wish you a lot of luck and all that. and with the new EP as well. It's it's great. I really do enjoy it a lot. I'm I'm very happy to dive into your world of you know, music and then to talk to you and it's cool to

Tim Atlas (01:04:15.194)

my god, tell me about it, dude.

Brian Funk (01:04:37.946)

See a lot of similarities in the stuff I like to do and the way I like to work too and what you're doing. It makes me like what you're doing more. And I think in our world of wherever this technological world is heading, the the artist behind the work is sometimes just as interesting as the work. And it makes they all both kind of come together. And I'm I'm finding that a lot with what you're doing, man. Really digging it.

Tim Atlas (01:05:02.449)

Thank you so much, man. Nah, that means the world, thank you.

Brian Funk (01:05:06.97)

So is there a particular place you wanna tell people to check out your work? I got a few links, a few socials and any favorites, just Spotify, Apple Music or

Tim Atlas (01:05:14.055)

Mm.

Tim Atlas (01:05:18.002)

Yeah.

Tim Atlas (01:05:22.279)

yeah, just go ahead and Google Tim Atlas and you know, choose from the litter. I'm I'm all over the the internet, so yeah, you'll find it. no preference personally, but yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:28.244)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:37.712)

Okay, cool. I well I'll put a bunch of them in the show notes for the episode so people can make it easy for them. Yeah. Well thank you very much and and thank you for everyone for listening. Have a good one.

Tim Atlas (01:05:42.479)

Sweet. Thank you, man. I appreciate it.

Tim Atlas (01:05:51.955)

Cheers, man. Thanks.

This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Bouncing to Audio in Ableton Live.

• Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

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I’ve been following Xylo’s work for some time now and it was great to speak to her about her work. We discussed building community and the creation of her new album. Xylo has collected a lot of wisdom in her journey and shares it with us today. 

Music Production for Women is running SoundLab, a virtual event on July 14th and 21st, 2026 to help attendees unlock the skills of producing and mixing music. Sign up here: https://musicproductionforwomen.com/soundlab2026

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Links:

• Xylo Aria - https://www.xyloaria.com

• Music Production for Women - https://musicproductionforwomen.com

• MPW Podcast - https://musicproductionforwomen.com/#section-2gUK_YLsXV

• Free Intro to Music Production Class by MPW - https://musicproductionforwomen.com/music-production-masterclass-1535-155985

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• MPW on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/musicproductionforwomen

• MPW on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/musicproductionforwomen

• MPW on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@musicproductionforwomen

• Xylo on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@XyloAria/videos

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• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

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• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

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Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:00.91)

All right, Xylo, welcome aboard. Great to have you.

Xylo Aria (00:03.848)

Great to be here, Brian. Thanks so much for having me.

Brian Funk (00:07.148)

Yeah, it's nice to have you. It's fun to turn the tables on you for your podcast. MPW the podcast.

Xylo Aria (00:11.556)

It is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's good to be on this side.

Brian Funk (00:16.972)

Yeah. You're doing awesome work. like I told you before we started, I I've seen your stuff pop up here and there in my journeys over the internet. And you're always sending out a positive message, supportive message. which is really important, believe it or not, you know, like working on music and trying to create stuff as much as I love it. It's also the one of the hugest sources of stress and

Frustration sometimes in my life where sometimes you feel like a wizard and you can do anything and other times it's like who do I think I am?

Xylo Aria (00:55.294)

for sure, for sure. But I'm I'm glad that comes across, you know, on the other side of the world and through through what we're doing. So yeah, thank you.

Brian Funk (01:01.486)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:06.648)

Do you wanna give us the the quick pitch about music production for women and tell us you know, how you got that started and all of that kind of stuff. So for people that might not know.

Xylo Aria (01:18.138)

Yeah, yeah. So I started MPW in twenty nineteen to empower more women to produce for themselves and produce music. And I guess it was all based on my own experience as a singer songwriter and unfortunately having some kind of not so great experiences with the producers I was working with and then kind of getting fed up with the whole thing and deciding that

I need to do this myself to have control over the process. And in that that learning process felt a little kind of isolating. I felt like the odd person out a lot of the time in those rooms, but getting to the point where I was producing for myself, I was like, my gosh, like where has this been all my life? And why did it take me so long to to explore this more? And reflecting on that, I was

Brian Funk (02:08.75)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (02:16.914)

thinking about all the things that would have made it easier and more enjoyable a process for me to to get into production and basically created MPW based on what I wish existed when when I got started. So yeah, so everything's built around, you know, community, encouragement, support and around not overcomplicating technical things that I think

don't often need to be overcomplicated.

Brian Funk (02:51.124)

I'm glad you bring that up because I think as I've learned more, I've realized sometimes it's way simpler than you think. You well like an EQ, having seventeen nodes of peaks and valleys, a lot of times it's just a little soft bump. Does the does the job the best. It's funny how we d we just complicate it like crazy.

Xylo Aria (02:53.192)

Ha ha

Xylo Aria (03:02.524)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (03:11.27)

Yeah.

For sure. I

Xylo Aria (03:18.632)

Yeah, I guess that comes with building confidence, isn't it? When you feel like you need to be doing more and justifying having the EQ and you have a hi a bunch of things going on, it's only when you know, even speaking to much more experienced producers and I saw very simple, you know, way they use the EQ, I was like, maybe that's all you need. But maybe that needs confidence that you need to build over time.

Brian Funk (03:26.67)

Hm.

Brian Funk (03:40.878)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (03:45.282)

Yeah, maybe. When I first started doing my live electronic stuff using Ableton Live, I'm I came from playing in bands, playing guitar, rock and b rock and roll type stuff. And that's where I was playing also and I guess this is about like two thousand ten. So the laptop on the stage was kind of like getting the side eye all the time. And a lot of like, You playing dubstep bro? Like that kind of comment, like

Xylo Aria (04:07.389)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (04:11.966)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (04:13.814)

Like kind of talking down to me. So I felt like I had to be doing a lot. So I was always turning a knob and moving a fader. But I'd listen back and I'd be like, this is just chaos. And doing less took a bit of confidence because I was trying to show people like I'm not just checking my email. I'm actually doing something up here. But had to lay back the music really improved a lot from that.

Xylo Aria (04:17.926)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (04:32.264)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (04:40.255)

Mm, mm, yeah, for sure. I mean it is tricky from a live performance perspective. 'cause you yeah, you do feel that pressure to be showing what you're doing. Yeah.

Brian Funk (04:51.906)

Yeah. Yeah, if you hit a drum, right? Like everyone understands what you did. When you twist a knob or push a button, like a lot of times no one even knows what it did.

Xylo Aria (04:56.466)

Yeah. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (05:01.928)

What? Yeah. Yeah yeah, exactly.

Brian Funk (05:07.276)

I think what you said though is a reason a lot of people I think it's why I got into recording myself as well, was yeah, like that control and going and having stuff get recorded for you and realizing it didn't sound the way you wanted it to or people that were more experienced would tell you, No, no, no, no, no, no, that's not how we do it. You just we do it this way And you're like, But my guitar is supposed to be loud or or a loud rock band and like, No no no no no no

Xylo Aria (05:14.022)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (05:24.134)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (05:34.414)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (05:37.07)

Not as much of that or yeah.

Xylo Aria (05:37.959)

Yeah, for sure. Mm. Yeah, like there were times where I paid, you know, like a couple of grand to have a song produced and then never released it because it was just not what I was going for. And yeah, I guess that having that skill just gives you that control, to be able to

realize your sound, even though it takes a while. Takes a while to get there and a lot of frustration to get to that point. But yeah, I think it's it just gives a lot of freedom.

Brian Funk (06:14.157)

That's how you get there, I think, too, is with that freedom to explore and try things out and make the mistakes and maybe even do the things wrong and get the desirable results. And that, you know, the professional or the experienced person would never allow you to do that. You you can't let that meter go in the red, like no, but when you do it without knowing any better, you're like, that's cool.

Xylo Aria (06:26.256)

Mm, mm.

Xylo Aria (06:32.902)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (06:40.942)

Yeah, yeah. That is something that I kind of miss like as you get more familiar with your tools. Like the le there's less chance of those creative accidents. They happen still, but like I I kind of enjoyed that more of not knowing exactly what this was gonna do, but doing it anyway, 'cause I had no rules to follow and being like, that's that's cool. Yeah.

Brian Funk (06:54.861)

Mm.

Brian Funk (07:06.795)

Yeah. That that is the joy, I guess. I I find and you probably do too, that when you work with people that are learning, you see them do these things and it reminds you like, yeah, that's that's what happens when you do that, but it works here. Those fresh perspectives. I that's a big thing I get out of teaching for myself.

Xylo Aria (07:17.406)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (07:23.898)

Yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (07:28.494)

Mm, mm. Yeah, for sure. It is nice to see people on that part of the journey. yeah.

Brian Funk (07:39.552)

Now you talked about community. That's definitely a very important thing for everybody else. how did you get started building one? I think we all struggle with that. You know, we want I want community, but like, you know, where do I go? Especially 'cause now when we're in the computer it music has gotten very solitary. Whereas it used to always be you would have to play with other people, but now we're we can do it all on your own, which is great. But

Xylo Aria (07:52.787)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (08:00.443)

Mm.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (08:06.911)

It can make finding others and building community a little tricky. I wonder just how you got there, started, what inspired you?

Xylo Aria (08:10.854)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (08:15.578)

Yeah, yeah. So it was at the I was living in London at the time, like when I first started MPW and before kind of r really officially starting it, I I I wanted that community myself and I didn't feel like I had it. So like I went to loads of different networking events and things like that to meet people. but then I actually

started a meetup group for producers and just organized a couple of meetups and yeah, sometimes three people would show up and sometimes a few more people would show up and that was lovely actually kind of meeting people without really any intention for that time. And

Brian Funk (09:05.207)

Mm-hmm.

Xylo Aria (09:11.45)

And at at that time I was speaking to like in in those settings with a lot of other kind of female musicians and things and about their experiences and in production or getting into production, et cetera. And I then it confirmed the need for a platform like MPW. initially when I was first thinking about my own experiences, you know, you think

i is it just me that these scenarios happen to that I feel really strongly about this platform and whether it should exist or not? But then having that confirmation from other people saying, actually, I would love that that kind of increased the drive to to create it and then and then creating and starting MPW the first couple of

workshops that I did were super, super small and intimate, and in person, which was really lovely. And then I my visa was ending in the UK and I was very sad about that. I really wanted to stay. But knowing that that was coming up and I couldn't stay meant that I had to make everything online because I knew that I'd have to leave. And you know, I guess everything happens

For a reason, I I do believe, but like that made MPW COVID proof, you know, before COVID happened, because that was in twenty nineteen. So yeah, just in time. And so then everything shifted online where we started having, you know, monthly group kind of coaching sessions and and things like that. Just for a a place for people to show up every month and just kind of hang out with other similar people.

Brian Funk (10:46.901)

Hm. Right.

Brian Funk (10:51.204)

just in time. Hm.

Xylo Aria (11:10.29)

and then we yeah, started like our courses and things and there the the Discord is quite a big part of it and now like moving things to WhatsApp and things like that as well, so that there are multiple different ways for people to connect, whether it's in the class, after the class, like in the breakout rooms or in WhatsApp groups or Discord groups, etc. so that's

Yeah, that's how I went about it and I think it's working. you know, it it doesn't have the live element as much now. like we do some run some live workshops throughout the year in different places. but most of it is online, which does make it tricky, but it also gives me flexibility to be able to run MPW without being tied to a place and then also

Brian Funk (12:05.046)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (12:08.392)

flexibility for me to have a great team in different parts of the world. Like we have now five five of us and we're in four different continents. So it makes that something that we can do rather than being tied to a location.

Brian Funk (12:25.856)

Hm. Wow, that's great. So it it's grown and spread and are the other people you're working with are they like also members? Like with is that how they got into it?

Xylo Aria (12:37.49)

the most recent person who joined our team was a student of ours two or three years ago. So it's it's nice for her to be on the other side of it. But yeah, the the first person who joined my team, Carmel, she had been on the mailing list for a long time and I think she just really enjoyed the content and things. And she's been an absolute gem that I would be completely lost without and I'm so grateful for her.

Brian Funk (12:46.593)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (13:03.404)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (13:05.534)

and then yeah, one person that we that's on our team just applied for for a a job with us like just through social media, we we put that out. and then the the other person on the team just started doing a couple of bits and pieces of admin for us and then yeah, we thought she was a great fit and ended up joining full time. Yeah.

Brian Funk (13:30.506)

Hm. That's great when the people involved believe in the mission like that, that they're

Xylo Aria (13:36.11)

yeah. It's you know, for me it's it's vital for for the the business that I'm running. Like if there was someone that kind of didn't really care about the mission, it just wouldn't be the right fit.

Brian Funk (13:48.811)

Hmm. Yeah, just sort of clocking in. You know. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, but to be but it's nice to be part of something you're building that you're working on though too. I think I I know that I feel that way like as a teacher. It's nice to feel like you're in a when you're working towards something. I've

Xylo Aria (13:52.793)

Yeah, yeah. Then you know, get a corporate job. There's plenty of those. Yeah. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (14:05.158)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (14:14.206)

Mm.

Brian Funk (14:16.604)

said like jokingly, like I don't get paid enough not to care, you know. Like I I have to get that out of it as well. Like that's part of what I'm trying to do, right? Like so and same thing with some of the teaching with music production to just see some of the people like kind of stick around and, you know, show up in other places.

Xylo Aria (14:20.395)

Y okay. Mm. Mm.

Xylo Aria (14:28.37)

Mm. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (14:41.052)

Mm.

Brian Funk (14:42.828)

You know, those are the people that are fired up. Those are people that tend to go places doing this 'cause it I guess you kinda need that here in in the the music world. It's not really like other professions where you get your degree, you get your whatever, and now you can get the job, like in in music and even I say this to my students through Berkeley online, like I don't even have the degree you guys are going for. So I'm I'm I'm teaching this class, not because I'm

Xylo Aria (15:08.421)

Mm, that's a good point, yeah.

Brian Funk (15:12.63)

qualified really. Just it's the like just working at it and you know, there's no we never get like as artists like a permission slip or a or some like final like okay you made it, now you're an artist

Xylo Aria (15:17.543)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (15:23.014)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (15:27.706)

Yeah, yeah. That's such a good point, isn't it? And I think that that's probably a contributor to all the imposter syndrome that we experience in this industry, 'cause everyone's like, can I call myself an artist or a producer? Or, you know, d does someone else have to call me that or how does that work?

Brian Funk (15:38.54)

Mm.

Brian Funk (15:48.075)

Yeah, when do you become a musician? When do you become a music producer? Like when are you allowed to say that? You almost just have to just act like one or something. And that's like you said, that imposter syndrome will eventually kick in. Like that it's a nasty one.

Xylo Aria (15:53.31)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (16:00.412)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (16:04.604)

Mm, mm. Yeah, it is, it is. For sure.

Brian Funk (16:12.488)

One of the comforts though in in doing this podcast especially is finding out and not that I wish this upon other people, but pretty much everybody goes through that. Like people you would never expect, like, really? With that Grammy sitting on the shelf behind you? Like you feel that way?

Xylo Aria (16:30.504)

Crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. That that's it's a good thing to mention and I've definitely experienced that as well and and it and then it that's a good thing to pass on to students as well, that like, you know, if you're experiencing it right now, it's so okay because everyone does, including, like you said, Grammy Winning producers, engineers, etc.

Brian Funk (16:54.144)

Yeah. some of some people have said even like once I got that award or once I got that recognition or that I did that track with whoever, th that was when it really kicked in. 'Cause I had this success and it's like, well, maybe it's just a fluke. At least when before I had that I was still like kind of aspiring and now it's like, now you gotta be that.

Xylo Aria (17:10.781)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (17:15.513)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (17:19.268)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a that's a interesting observation.

Brian Funk (17:28.97)

That's part of why I like what you're doing, that you're coming out there and letting people know that it's all right to go through that stuff and that it's really part of it. I think it it helps fuel it, I guess, wouldn't you think? Like helps motivate you a little bit.

Xylo Aria (17:47.037)

Yeah, I I think it does. I guess for some people maybe it's gets to the point where it's crippling and that's no good. But yeah, I'd hope for most people it it acts as a motivator.

Brian Funk (18:05.705)

I've been crippled.

Xylo Aria (18:06.974)

yeah, I'm sure we all have. Including me.

Brian Funk (18:14.227)

Well, you have some evidence though coming out soon that you're able to get through it. You've got a an album, Dream coming out.

Xylo Aria (18:22.878)

Y yes, yeah. So it's something you know, we were talking about this earlier that when you're in this space you can be surrounded by music, but then the time and the energy and the focus to create it can can fall to the bottom of the priority list and this album has been a works for many years. So I'm so excited to finally

get it out and I have been working on some newer stuff and I'm really feeling the backlog now, you know, of I just I can't really get super creative right now because I feel like there's all this all this stuff that just needs to get out there and so I'm looking forward to it. Really, really love so many tracks. I mean all of them, I guess we all love our music that we want to share. So I'm

excited excited to get it get it out and into the world and trying to as well disconnect with what happens once it's out. You know, we we can obviously put together our marketing plan or whatever, but know that the end result of the responses from people is just out of our control then. Easier said than done.

Brian Funk (19:51.53)

Yes. Yeah, that's a great point because once you put it out, that's not in your hands really. Like you said, you can promote it, you can try to get people to hear it, which is also sometimes very difficult too. the biggest response I'm used to and many of the people I know is just crickets, just nothing. Just all right, I worked real hard, here it is and

Xylo Aria (19:52.252)

Yeah. Mm.

Xylo Aria (20:15.516)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (20:21.195)

The video of my dog chasing her tail got way more likes than all this hard work I put into this album.

Xylo Aria (20:30.494)

I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's something that I think I I wish there was a better way to handle it, you know? Like, 'cause it is it is that's the kind of hardest part of the whole thing, I think.

Brian Funk (20:39.563)

Mm.

Brian Funk (20:49.769)

I gotta imagine though, having the community you're building and that you've created over these years, there's a little bit at least of a built in audience of people that will probably check it out just because they're aware of what you're doing and enjoy the overall it's one of the important things of having a community is you have people you can actually share it with.

Xylo Aria (21:10.126)

Yeah. It's funny, like I feel like MPW isn't the space for me to share my music, you know? Like I I maybe this is a is not the right way to look at it, but I don't want it to be like a tooting my own horn sort of space, where I'm like, here's what I'm doing, check out my music. but it's I see it more of a celebration for

my students music. so I don't really shout about it in the MPW sphere, but I don't know, maybe maybe that's not the right way to look at it, but that's how I feel anyway.

Brian Funk (21:53.564)

I don't know the answer. I would imagine there's people that would enjoy hearing about it, but I can understand what you're saying too. You don't want it to come across as this self promoting kind of thing, which I think is always a thing artists deal with is that kind of line of w being the artist and then becoming like like sleazy salesperson kind of thing.

Xylo Aria (21:55.263)

Ha ha

Xylo Aria (22:05.51)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (22:20.43)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (22:20.895)

Where that feels uncomfortable.

Xylo Aria (22:24.208)

Mm mm mm. Yeah, it's a tricky one.

Brian Funk (22:29.535)

I hear ya. I always tell people to do it though. I think you have to toot your horn. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (22:34.342)

Yeah, perhaps I should maybe for this one this will be a special special one with the album.

Brian Funk (22:42.513)

It it's a huge accomplishment, you know. So but of course I I get what you're saying too, right? 'Cause I have similar feelings.

Xylo Aria (22:44.486)

Yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (22:51.418)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:54.911)

That's a that's the whole concept of I guess of like releasing music is also and I hear I heard this, it was Derek Sivers that said this. Was like letting go of it. And like not just like putting it out, but like it's not yours anymore. It's out of your head like the bird flying from the nest kind of thing. let it it it does its own thing that as you said

Xylo Aria (23:08.742)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (23:14.95)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (23:19.121)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (23:24.393)

We don't have a lot of control over.

Xylo Aria (23:26.522)

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And and I have heard that kind of you know, analogy before where you it's not yours anymore, you know, it's it's it it belongs to the world. and then you also, if you can see it that way, let go of the whatever attachment you might feel to people's responses, etcetera.

Brian Funk (23:39.275)

Hm.

Xylo Aria (23:56.607)

'cause it's it's it doesn't belong to you anymore. But yeah. Again, I think those things sometimes are easier said than done. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (24:06.046)

Definitely. The only way I know how to ease that a little bit is just to kinda keep making more. And I I just saw actually on your Instagram you had Keppy from How to Write Songs. who I've had on a few times now too. She's great. I I love what they do. but she was like, Yeah, just write a lot, write a lot And then nothing becomes precious. It's not

Xylo Aria (24:15.343)

Yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (24:20.816)

Yeah, yeah. yeah, Keppy's great. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (24:30.886)

Mm.

Brian Funk (24:31.76)

Something you can you know, you always know there's something new coming out, there's something tomorrow, something the next day.

Xylo Aria (24:37.754)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a that's a good point. And I have heard that from Keppy before and yeah, then it's you know, finding the the time for it for the writing very consistently. But yeah, it sounds like a good way to get around it.

Brian Funk (24:49.449)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, like we s went back to before making music that's to be the hardest thing to get to. Well, we have to wear so many hats, right? and I imagine that's probably something you talk a lot about in the community when you

Xylo Aria (24:57.816)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (25:12.062)

decide to be like a music producer, you're writing the songs you're producing, you're playing them probably half the time. You're recording them, engineering, mixing, maybe even all all the steps, mastering and all that. it gets hard to stay in one's own. Sometimes it'd be nice if you just had to do this or just had to do that.

Xylo Aria (25:21.106)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (25:33.831)

Yeah. For sure, for sure, you know, and and it's something that you know, there's the like what advice do you give to someone on the ideal thing that should be do that they should be doing or what's the best thing for them? Because I think, like you said, there is a lot to do and it's not for everyone and I think that's the thing that some people

either don't grasp fully or aren't willing to admit to themselves that you know that the artist path is not for everyone and unless you are willing to you know do the social media stuff like be super active and all of that outside of the creativity that is required then

you know, perhaps doing it more for the joy of it or for other reasons rather than this this goal of being a commercially successful artist is a better goal for you, but it's harder hard to admit that sometimes, you know, that I'm I'm not willing to do all the business stuff that's that has to be done to commercialise this thing. and it's okay to just do it 'cause

Brian Funk (26:55.902)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (27:00.784)

It's fun and 'cause I enjoy it and 'cause it's a yeah, it's a great thing to do. Mm.

Brian Funk (27:07.858)

Mm.

I've had that conversation with my band that are playing and my band is two other guys also with day jobs. So they're they don't need to rely on music to fund them and to be their career. And we were kinda one day being like, you know, this is actually kinda nice that it doesn't matter if we record these songs we've been working on, it doesn't matter if we release them. We're doing it only because we want to.

Xylo Aria (27:18.344)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (27:39.773)

and we'll if we press we pressed some records, we did like a hundred vinyls and we were like, we know at least three people want them. Meaning us. So we do that and even now that like there's these on demand vinyl places now, which is so cool. We we made three prints of our EP and that that was it. And then and like if people want they can order but

Xylo Aria (27:40.059)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (27:49.256)

Yeah, great.

Xylo Aria (28:04.542)

Great. That's perfect, actually. Yeah.

Brian Funk (28:09.79)

No one does. But we d we're not none of us want us have to be the one to like push it and okay, we gotta do our marketing plan or or we gotta book things and that has been points of stress when I was younger in bands, when we back when I thought that's what I wanted out of my life. Like you'd be like, How come I'm the only one calling and emailing and you'd have these like bickering things with your friends that you're playing music with and

Xylo Aria (28:16.915)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (28:30.046)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (28:36.378)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (28:39.462)

Some of those bands r didn't survive because of that. And it I think now the goal is just to keep doing it. That that's really it. And that's helped a lot with songwriting and ideas and whether or not I'm okay with how that bass part or drum part goes, whereas in the past it'd be a little more like, Come on, you gotta play.

Xylo Aria (28:49.032)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (28:55.518)

Hm.

Xylo Aria (29:00.477)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Just that's great. Like if you can get to the point of creating without the pressure of it, you know, that's what creativity is actually about. And I I was listening to a podcast with Rick Rubin who he was talking about when you create without any expectation for that project or whatever, that's art. But when you're creating with

the aim of it being a commercial success, then that's commerce and it's not really art anymore 'cause you're not allowing yourself to fully express whatever you want to express, which I thought was very interesting. So it's yeah, lovely if you can create from that space of no pressure.

Brian Funk (29:56.766)

Yeah, that's an interesting point. 'cause I think about myself whenever I'm trying to be clever or you know, make something that I think some people will like or find impressive or, you know, whatever, intelligent. I I never really finish those projects or I get stuck and then I give up and frustrated or or just even things that I liked suddenly

Xylo Aria (30:05.606)

Hmm.

Xylo Aria (30:11.592)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (30:19.59)

Mm.

Brian Funk (30:26.607)

I don't like it 'cause it's not doing anything, you know, musically intelligent, you know. But but so much of the stuff I love is so simple anyway. I I have so much more fun when I can let go of that stuff.

Xylo Aria (30:34.278)

Mm, mm.

Xylo Aria (30:38.547)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (30:44.316)

Yeah, for sure. I I think we all do, but it's just sometimes harder to let go. yeah.

Brian Funk (30:51.721)

It definitely is. So I know you're in an Ableton Live user and person, you know your s your way around. So I kinda wanted to ask you a little bit just about your your album and like the production and anything like processes or tools that you leaned on or found interesting in the making of the new one?

Xylo Aria (31:09.693)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (31:19.046)

Yeah. Mm trying to think like if there's something I it I feel like the songs have been created over such a space of time that I can see the progression when I open up the older songs, you know, how I've used Ableton. So that's kind of interesting. But yeah, generally I think I like creating atmosphere.

Brian Funk (31:32.435)

Right.

Xylo Aria (31:47.237)

with my voice in a lot of the songs. You know, it will obviously there'll be the the vocal melody and that's fine, but it will kind of feature as a pad or a synth or something like that where I've used it in in different ways. and yeah, I like using some weird sounds like there's a sound pack of just life stuff of

construction sites or I don't know traffic noise or something like that. But I I think it's fun to have some sounds that you can't really place what they are and to use them in in different ways in the creative process and yeah and yeah lots of lots of kind of

Brian Funk (32:18.584)

cool. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (32:43.774)

parallel processing on vocals, like, you know, variety of different delays, reverbs, compressors and yeah, lots of vocal tracks as well as parallel parallel processing as well. So yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:06.931)

So like when you're making like kind of like pads out of your voice, is it you're just stacking tracks, layering like the different notes of maybe a chord or something?

Xylo Aria (33:18.04)

Yeah, o often I'll just kind of like vibe with it and then I'll come up with some sort of a like a humming melody in the back and then I may use it as it is or I may just use chunks of it to turn that into kind of longer notes or something like that and and then often I'll just harmonise those a few times recording something on top of it.

to create like a a richness. 'cause I'm not a I'm not really an instrumentalist, like I can play a little bit of guitar and keys, but the voice for me is where I feel more comfortable expressing myself. So it's easier for me to create some chords with my voice.

Brian Funk (34:00.457)

Mm.

Brian Funk (34:09.405)

That's cool. I would love to be there with my voice. I use my voice a lot, but you know, I th I'm definitely feel I can just play the note on the guitar way better than I can sing the note. but I d I do enjoy like a lot of that.

Xylo Aria (34:10.684)

Yeah.

Well, I'm sure you can. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (34:27.214)

All right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (34:33.417)

Playing around and processing voices and just seeing where I can take them. I d I just think the the human voice has just got so much to it. And each person's voice is so unique. I mean, you can recognize a person's voice in a sentence out of nowhere. so to be able to

Xylo Aria (34:37.798)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (34:50.31)

Mm, mm.

Brian Funk (34:56.571)

integrate that into the music a lot, I I think brings a lot of life and humanity, which it's it sounds like you're into too, with especially with like some of the sounds you were mentioning, like the construction or abstract noises. I think that's really important now especially where to have real stuff going on. There's so much, you know, other ways to do music now that isn't that way.

Xylo Aria (35:06.322)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (35:14.066)

Hm.

Xylo Aria (35:17.768)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (35:23.838)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (35:26.605)

I really appreciate those types of things in music it more than ever, hearing like that's like really your voice being chopped up and played around with and rather than either whether it's AI of course or just like even just all the access we have to loops and samples. It's really nice to hear people taking their own voice and integrating it.

Xylo Aria (35:30.621)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (35:37.67)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (35:45.501)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (35:49.766)

Mm.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And it can spark different creativity as well. Like there was one challenge that I gave myself. Like I just spoke a sentence I I don't remember what it was, but that wasn't important. But I decided the only samples or the only tools that I'm gonna use to create this song is gonna be from this sentence. And that was

So fun. Like I created the kick and the snare. Then I probably I think I ended up layering the kick 'cause it just didn't have enough low end and stuff. But just using that to create all the sounds, I had a great time and and it just really brought out creativity that I wouldn't have kind of tapped into otherwise.

Brian Funk (36:20.033)

well.

Brian Funk (36:33.577)

Mm.

Brian Funk (36:41.725)

So you're like pitching them, reversing them, time stretching, all that kind of stuff to get new stuff out of it?

Xylo Aria (36:46.099)

Yeah. Yeah. All that stuff adding, you know, random effects and yeah, making them longer, shorter and yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (36:51.187)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (36:56.709)

I love that kind of stuff. in the Berkeley class I do, which is the sampling, Ableton Live Sampling class, one of the assignments for the week is to just go about your day and record sounds and make something with that. And it can be abstract or you can actually try to like make instruments and things and melodies. And every single person that does it is different and

Xylo Aria (36:57.982)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (37:05.16)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (37:10.334)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (37:25.852)

Mm.

Brian Funk (37:26.597)

Even if they only got some a lot of times people don't get past breakfast 'cause they find all these sounds like the coffee machine, the egg, the pan, like the door to the bathroom. Like you you just realize there's so much material everywhere. But even when they only get that far, their shower sounds different than the other person's shower and their their kitchen has a different reverb than the other person's. And it's always unique and it it's always

Xylo Aria (37:31.878)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (37:40.274)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (37:46.791)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (37:51.686)

Mm.

Mm.

Brian Funk (37:55.965)

Very interesting to hear 'cause you get all those different natural reverbs in the recordings and recording qualities and I'm always blown away with what people do with that. What is the what track is that gonna be on the album? So we can Okay.

Xylo Aria (38:04.968)

Mm, mm mm.

Xylo Aria (38:11.24)

Really cool. That's actually not on the album at all. So that was yeah, it's that's one of those like mid album random projects that I don't think fits in with the album. But once the album is out, hopefully I can, you know, go back to those other ones and look at finalizing them and getting them out. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (38:21.734)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (38:27.442)

That you can

Right.

Brian Funk (38:35.27)

That is a great part about releasing the album 'cause it clears the the path for all that other stuff. Hmm. that's fun. So that's a lot to look forward to then from you. A lot of cool stuff.

Xylo Aria (38:38.078)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure, yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (38:51.152)

Yeah, yeah. It'll be fun, yeah.

Brian Funk (38:55.868)

Yeah. do you play any of that live? Do you turn that into anything?

Xylo Aria (39:01.392)

I used to, yeah. So I used to play live around Melbourne and then in London when I was there as well. But yeah, I just I I feel like I enjoy that less these days. I I don't know why. I guess the process of booking gigs and and and things and you know, promoting them, etcetera, like I just

I feel like I don't get enough joy from the performance to make all the other part worth it, you know? So yeah, I think I enjoy the creation more. Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:35.784)

Yeah. I gotcha.

Brian Funk (39:45.937)

Mm-hmm. I think I'm the same way. I don't the thousands of shows. I just don't have the I think I just used my entire life supply of, hey, come see me play requests, you know. I have none in me anymore. Like I I we'll play out once in a while with the band and sometimes little like one off things.

Xylo Aria (39:49.724)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (40:05.392)

Yeah Yeah.

Xylo Aria (40:15.079)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (40:16.082)

But it has to really fall in my lap and almost not depend on at all on who I bring. 'Cause I just like can't ask people anymore. I don't know. Maybe it was when when you're younger and your friends are all going out anyway, you just say, Well, just come to this place instead 'cause we'll be playing. It's a little bit easier, but

Xylo Aria (40:18.641)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (40:23.262)

Mm. Yeah, for sure, yeah.

Mm.

Xylo Aria (40:36.431)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (40:39.398)

I maybe I also just know how much it takes out of me to get myself out of the house to go anywhere anymore. I don't wanna put that on anyone.

Xylo Aria (40:44.638)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure, for sure. I think that yeah, the the stage of life everyone around us is at definitely I think impacts that.

Brian Funk (40:59.526)

Yeah. I I almost can't even believe when anybody wants me to actually physically be somewhere. Like you outta your mind. Yeah. Well, I guess, you know, if you ever get the bug again you can, but there's like you said about just all the other stuff, there's really no there's no need, you know, you gotta find your own way to enjoy what you're doing.

Xylo Aria (41:05.758)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (41:26.47)

Hm.

Brian Funk (41:26.588)

Then to put like something extra like that on will only take it away anyway.

Xylo Aria (41:29.096)

Yeah.

Yeah. I guess that's again the thing of like, you know, what's the aim for you from this? Like if you are looking to chase that artist route and stuff, obviously playing live is a huge part of that to connect with an audience and and that kind of thing. But for me that's not the thing anymore. That's not what I'm chasing. So if I if I'm not loving it then I'm like I don't have to do it.

Brian Funk (41:43.228)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (42:01.114)

Sometimes we I don't know, like polluted, I guess, where you might start off like, you just enjoy playing your guitar, say, and just letting it go off into the ether, and then you decide it has to become a a project and then you gotta release it and finish it and tour it or whatever and almost like the whole time you're doing it

Xylo Aria (42:11.846)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (42:23.698)

Mm.

Brian Funk (42:26.99)

is 'cause you wanna one day be able to get back to just sitting around and just playing your guitar for nobody. Like just to get full circle. It's like why even start that? 'Cause I mean, I I'm definitely been guilty of it too. even like promoting it. They're like you have to finish your music, you have to complete projects, music producers produce music. but you don't, you know, you really don't. Like

Xylo Aria (42:37.438)

Journey, yeah.

Xylo Aria (42:50.47)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (42:55.014)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (42:57.116)

You might and I I guess I realize too, sometimes I just like tinkering with the sounds and even I've talked to a couple of people that were, you know, out there on the internet and mostly like teaching and doing tutorials and a few of them said it at like at the same time to me, almost like it was something I need to hear, that they were like, you know

Xylo Aria (43:02.214)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (43:20.179)

Mm.

Brian Funk (43:22.834)

For me, like r I was like, When are you gonna release the music? You the track in your s your video is awesome. they're like, you know, that's releasing my music for me. It's it's in there. I put it in there and and that helped me a lot with unfinished stuff, like that kind of guilt that I have like, you know, the gigs and gigs of unfinished music on my computer.

Xylo Aria (43:33.362)

Mm. Yeah. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (43:41.126)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (43:48.678)

Mm.

Brian Funk (43:49.968)

I started putting those little ideas like behind these little podcast clips, you know, that so it's like the sixty second little short or something. Then just it's that like noodling stuff. I was like, it has a cool, mysterious vibe, it'll fit whatever this person is saying and And then I I feel much more at peace with those things that never got finished. 'Cause you can't finish it all really if you're if you

Xylo Aria (43:55.669)

cool. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (44:00.741)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (44:07.767)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that.

Xylo Aria (44:13.98)

Mm, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (44:18.779)

going at it like crazy. And I definitely admire people that some people claim that they finish everything they start. I don't I've I've heard them say it.

Xylo Aria (44:26.182)

Really? I don't know if I've met them.

Okay. Yeah. Good on him.

Brian Funk (44:36.527)

And and like, you know, finishing is definitely a skill, but sometimes finished doesn't mean released and, you know, produced into a four minute song with whatever.

Xylo Aria (44:39.582)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (44:47.31)

Mm, yeah.

Xylo Aria (44:52.19)

True, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's a good good thing to come to terms with and it sounds like you have in in your own way of using it in different ways and and you don't even have to do that, I guess. Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (45:05.989)

Yeah. And that's today, you know. Tomorrow and be like, man That's that's part of I guess what keeps me into it too is you go through these phases. I do. I definitely go through different phases of what kind of productivity I feel like I need to be doing and

Xylo Aria (45:28.262)

Mm mm mm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:30.993)

I guess I don't need to be doing any of it. So

Xylo Aria (45:34.79)

No, yeah, yeah, that's it. That's it. I guess when it's when it's tied to your income then you n then you need to do it. But yeah.

Brian Funk (45:38.236)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:44.636)

Yeah, but to go back to the guitar playing, some people have told me like I I miss that, you know, like every time I pick up the guitar or sit at the piano I have to make a a song. I gotta be rehearsing for the gig or th that's a lot. You know, sometimes it's nice to just let music happen in the moment and

Xylo Aria (45:51.453)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (45:56.582)

Mm.

Mm.

Xylo Aria (46:05.276)

Yeah. Yeah.

Xylo Aria (46:11.547)

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Brian Funk (46:12.591)

And go like so much of our gear ha everything has a record button. Everything can be looped or saved. Sometimes it's nice to just not have that option or be free of it anyway.

Xylo Aria (46:15.902)

Mm, yeah.

Xylo Aria (46:28.655)

Mm, yeah, for sure. Just just play for no no other purpose. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (46:35.143)

Mm.

Brian Funk (46:39.015)

Do you know when the album comes out? Do you have a release date yet?

Xylo Aria (46:43.088)

I don't actually I'm waiting for the last master to come in. That's true, actually. Like you need the release date. But yeah, and I'm just waiting for the last last master to come in and then I wanna give myself like a couple of months from then just to get everything together and just know that I've tried on the, you know, marketing front, making some bits for social media, etc. and

Brian Funk (46:44.943)

Do have a proper release date? What's going on?

Brian Funk (46:55.238)

Okay.

Xylo Aria (47:10.65)

Yeah, so I'm I'm thinking I don't know exactly when this is gonna come out, but probably somewhere end of July or start of August kind of time. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:22.459)

Nice. Yeah, that's a couple of months from now. Yeah, that's an exciting time, I guess, waiting for those final versions to come back and to hear it for the first time. Hmm.

Xylo Aria (47:31.844)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Playing it in the car and it sounds great. And it's yeah, great feeling.

Brian Funk (47:40.881)

Yeah. It is. It's you only get that once too.

Xylo Aria (47:45.119)

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:47.976)

And as the producer and you know, y we don't really get that first time with our songs, the first experience 'cause we've been working on them and building up and we we know the twists and turns and surprises coming.

Xylo Aria (47:56.742)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (48:00.999)

Yeah.

Mm, mm mm. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But yeah, I think I would prefer that than being on the artist side where y you don't know what's you know, what someone's maybe created and whether it's w you know, exactly what you were hearing for the song. So mm.

Brian Funk (48:23.077)

Yeah. Yeah, that I can be really shocking, I guess. That's it it's great that you're pushing this out there for people too and just showing others that you can do it and have that control 'cause it can be like a helpless feeling, you know, like you you feel like and then you have to rely on others and it's

Xylo Aria (48:31.036)

Hm.

Xylo Aria (48:45.608)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (48:51.887)

You know, when you can have the responsibility of it, it's satisfying. It's it's a great power.

Xylo Aria (48:54.759)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (48:58.152)

For sure. Mm, mm mm. Yeah. Yeah, I was listening to a couple of the songs the other day and I was like, you know what, it's a great feeling knowing that I've crafted every single piece of sound on these tracks, you know. So it's yeah, it's good.

Brian Funk (49:17.873)

That is cool. Did you play everything? Do all the that's it's all you, huh? That's great.

Xylo Aria (49:22.67)

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's everything. There's no there's actually the one song has a rapper on it, which was really fun to to work on. but that's the only yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm. Yeah. Mm.

Brian Funk (49:32.207)

But was your decision to to bring that in. Like yeah. yeah, that's that's great. That's like I always loved that too when when I'm with artists that I that I listened to. They'd be like, that's so cool. They you know, they did all that. That it's so empowering. I think one of the first times I ever felt that was when I first heard like Paul McCartney's first album that he did.

Xylo Aria (49:48.878)

Mm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Mm, it is.

Xylo Aria (50:02.846)

Mm.

Brian Funk (50:02.87)

on his own and he was on a farm after the Beatles broke up. And I was just like, This is crazy. Like he did everything on this record and it's I mean it's so good and but to get to like hear him even I guess even the Beatles were like that too and that they took that under their control writing their own songs. But that was just the next level and

Xylo Aria (50:06.845)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (50:12.007)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (50:18.696)

Mm-hmm.

Xylo Aria (50:27.016)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (50:30.494)

Mm.

Brian Funk (50:30.67)

I was, you know, getting into recording myself at that time and listening to that. I like, man, something to aspire to.

Xylo Aria (50:37.296)

Yeah. Yeah. The ultimate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:41.444)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:45.722)

Well, we should probably tell people where to go to find out more. I I have your website here. We got music production for women dot com and then there's Instagram and YouTube. I'll put everything in the in the notes. Is there some place in particular you like to tell people to go look or anything to check out?

Xylo Aria (51:09.166)

Well, if you yeah, if you are looking for music production for women, I guess the website has everything you need. if you want to connect with me, you can always find me on Instagram, under Xylo Aria. So, yeah, that's a good place to find myself and my music.

Brian Funk (51:33.354)

And I want to turn it seems like you like to do this, so I'm gonna do it to you. do you have a career tip? Some advice?

Xylo Aria (51:39.26)

Okay.

Xylo Aria (51:43.119)

Okay. I do do that. Yeah. Yeah. I I think you know, we spoke about this a little bit before, but just keep going, you know, and it's the hardest thing because I feel like it's it's a exponential curve, you know, with this stuff in in this industry where you don't see anything for a long time. And that can be the point where people can give up.

that's assuming you you want to make it a career, you know. If you don't want to, that's perfectly fine as well and and you don't have to do that. But if you do want to make a a career, I think in my mind, yeah, there's talent is part of it, but I think the biggest determination of whether someone turns this into a career is if they've stuck with it long enough. So just just keep at it.

Brian Funk (52:44.346)

I think I saw it in the like high school gym somewhere, but it said, hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. And and I love that. and I've seen it like growing up, as for myself, even when I started playing guitar I was fourteen, I didn't know anything about music at all. I wasn't in band and anything and it it felt like everyone was so far ahead of me.

Xylo Aria (52:49.971)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (52:54.126)

Yeah. It's great, yeah.

Xylo Aria (53:05.544)

Hmm. Hmm.

Xylo Aria (53:12.05)

Hm.

Brian Funk (53:12.75)

you know, I just seemed almost impossible, but a lot of those people that I looked up to, that seemed like, you know, they're the best whatever in the high school musician, a lot of them don't do it anymore. They haven't they haven't taken that instrument out in a long time and yeah, I think that's a great piece of advice that you gotta just keep going.

Xylo Aria (53:28.326)

Mm.

Xylo Aria (53:37.096)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (53:38.329)

I I it's there is that like exponential thing, but sometimes there's also these like, I like I figured out how to like do this and you make like these jumps and then sometimes it just feels like you you never go up again. You just plateau forever and then once in a while there's just a new peak or or even you just look back. It's it's kinda like aging. Like you don't see yourself get older until you look at a picture or you know, in this case like listen to like an old track or something.

Xylo Aria (53:47.976)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (53:51.63)

Yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (53:56.699)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (54:07.323)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (54:07.918)

And the and you realize your growth that way, but it's happening.

Xylo Aria (54:11.012)

Yeah, no for sure, for sure. Yeah, I don't know if kind of exponential was the best graphical representation, but it was more the start of it, you know, where you don't you don't really see anything happen for a while. But yeah.

Brian Funk (54:17.338)

No, no, I think

Brian Funk (54:21.19)

Yeah.

I think it is a good explanation 'cause y you just like you're grinding away like sometimes here we go. If you're lucky, I mean that's there's no guarantee you even get to that, but but there is there's stuff happens, you know, over time. We get better.

Xylo Aria (54:28.572)

Hm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Xylo Aria (54:41.786)

Mm, mm. Yeah. We do, we do. Even though we can't we can't see it in the moment.

Brian Funk (54:50.18)

Yeah. That's great advice. probably a great place to wrap up. thank you for taking the time to talk. It's great to finally talk to you too. it's got that like kind of funny, surreal thing where I've seen you talk and now we're talking and interacting. So it's been a a lot of fun for me.

Xylo Aria (54:55.186)

Yeah.

Xylo Aria (55:04.267)

I yeah. Yeah, yeah. For sure, yeah, and it's been an absolute pleasure, Brian. Thanks so much for for chatting with me and it's it's been lovely.

Brian Funk (55:16.056)

And people if you're listening to this podcast, that might mean you like to listen to other ones. So MPW the podcast. Check it out. A lot of great guests, people I've recognized, people I've had, and people I wanna learn more about. So check it out everybody.

Xylo Aria (55:32.156)

Mm, yeah, yeah. Thank you.

Brian Funk (55:36.23)

Thank you.

OVERSEA put together a download Ableton Live effects and sounds he used on his new album, BEYOND!

Ableton Live Presets Included:

• Angelic Voices Instrument

• Brainwave FX

• Isochronic Machine

Listen to OVERSEA on the Music Production Podcast: Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Lomotor is a musician and producer who makes nature-inspired electronic music on a small farm in Massachusetts. His new album ABCAPSILAHAD combines electronic and acoustic instruments with field recordings and the sounds of leaves, trees, and birds. 

This Free Ableton Live Pack contains instruments made with trees and stones! (Get the Full Pack of 10 Instruments when you join the Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc )

Lomotor's Creative Tips to Live By - https://lomotor.net/lomotor-s-creative-tips-to-live-by
Listen to ABCAPSILAHAD by Lomotor - https://lomotor.net/home

Listen Lomotor’s Music Production Podcast episode on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Sebastien and I spoke about his work as OVERSEA and how has been using music for meditation and healing. Sebastien explained how he uses Ableton Live as a live performance instrument. We also discussed finding the creative flow in activities such as surfing, meditation, and music-making.

Sebastien put together a download Ableton Live effects and sounds he used on the new album!

Get the OVERSEA BEYOND Free Ableton Live Instrument Pack here: https://brianfunk.gumroad.com/l/kvvvijh

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• OVERSEA - https://www.h-music.ch/oversea

• BEYOND by OVERSEA - https://www.intellijend.com/l/beyond

• H-Music - https://www.h-music.ch

• OVERSEA Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/oversea.music/

• OVERSEA YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@overseamusic

• OVERSEA Free Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.gumroad.com/l/kvvvijh

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer book - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.772)

What's up, Sebastian? Welcome aboard. Great to have you.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (00:04.301)

Thank you so much, Brian. So happy to meet you and and be here tonight with you. Today, today is today for you, it's tonight for me, but

Brian Funk (00:10.626)

Very happy to have you. Yeah, we have a little time difference. You're in Portugal. I'm on Long Island, New York. So yeah, we we've got an ocean between us, but so much in common, so much to talk about. So it's great to get to it. congratulations on the new record, beyond.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (00:31.433)

Thank you. Thank you. It's just been out a few weeks and it's already so I've been so blessed and touched by the way it's it's been welcome. So thank you so much.

Brian Funk (00:42.766)

Hm. Yeah. I I've been listening, you know, over the last few weeks just to familiarize myself. But today in particular, I was kind of telling you, I was, you know, it was Monday morning, rushing to get to work and the hectic, you know, speed of life. And I got in the car and I put your record on and it was just a great exhale. It was and I I had such a nice ride. It was

just refreshing and put me in a great place to start the day. It was pretty much about the length of the drive, a little bit longer, so I didn't get the whole thing in, but it was yeah, just really nice moods, some nice soundscapes and also, you know, to do music like this that's very ambient, I guess you would say, like in nature and

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:13.224)

Looking in relation to 13.

Brian Funk (01:36.3)

There's a lot of melody, there's a lot of nice texture in there. So you've there's a lot going on. I I think, you know, more than a lot of ambient music often has chord changes and things like that. So, I found it pretty interesting on that level too, is it's it's really cool.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:54.973)

Thank you so much and and I'm I'm I feel blessed because I feel like the mission is accomplished. If you have if you had like a a moment to just zone out and and kind of rest while you were driving to work, it's kind of it's a good good way to to feel it. So yeah. So happy about that.

Brian Funk (02:08.43)

Mm.

Brian Funk (02:15.564)

Yeah, we could use more of that kind of stuff in the world, probably for a lot of us, right?

OVERSEA (sebastien) (02:19.856)

For sure, and that's also why I wanted to create this this type of album and and you were mentioning ambient and and already is so much to uncover, you know, but I don't come from ambient music at all and a at the start of my music journey, career, whatever. And but but I wanted to create a a longer piece, like a longer album with this type of space, you know, and

and being able to to kind counterbalance our culture and social media is and s the fast in in which we live in at the moment. So it's it's it feels very good that you you know you're mentioning the car drive this morning after you're rushing out to get to to work. It's it's it feels good.

Brian Funk (03:09.25)

Yeah, and y you know, as I'm talking to you now, this is actually the first time I've seen your image in full screen of whereas before it had the split screen as we were setting up. But I'm seeing your your layout and in your I guess you're in your studio. and it is there's like a balance happening right now in the shot. On the left side of you you've got all your electronics and synthesizers, and on the right side we've got a bunch of guitars and a couple of other things I think

OVERSEA (sebastien) (03:24.425)

Yeah. That's true. I just kind of tried to put that Yeah. That's that's right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:38.712)

hiding in there. And I think that's a nice blend of what we're hearing, it sounds like, on the record.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (03:45.496)

Yeah. Yeah. So funnily enough, I so I come from guitar. I was I started playing music when I was ten and I was fascinated by guitar and I grew up playing guitar, you know, so it was a very different world than what I'm w very different music than what I'm doing today. And there was I I grew up in Switzerland in the French speaking part of Switzerland and I was a fan of a a guy, a French guitar player

called just the letter And he's a kind of a guitar hero in France. And and it was really my mentor as a kid. You know, I was really passionated by guitar. And it's and and when I started playing guitar, quickly started playing piano as well. And then I got my first node stage which had a few synth sound but I was not into ambient. And it's it's more recently that I got into synthesizer. I was in London

And I fell in love with the the Core GMS 20 that's over there. And yeah, I I like Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're so good. And I was in the studio in in Telliot Studios in London, and they had the the old one. And it that kind of started my love for synthesizer, which then brought me into a bit more of an experimental approach to music in general, and it it just also allowed me to

Brian Funk (04:48.651)

Hm. It's got the same one. The the kind of newer mini one that they made. Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (05:15.244)

not give a rest not you know, not not just get away from guitar but also open my musical knowledge and mind and experiments as well, with with synths and and that's that's kind of how I ended up doing Beyond or you know, all the work I'm doing now was just that particular moment in time where I fell in love with the the the the Korg S twenty and just it was just a a snowball effect from

from that very moment. And and funny enough, you're mentioning guitar is when I was almost finished with the new album and I didn't put much guitar in it. And I was actually about to finish the mixes and so something didn't feel quite like me. And I I was reflecting on it and and I thought I think it's missing guitars. And that's how I got back into it. It was the very last week

before I was sending it to Master and and I added all the guitars that are are now in the in the album and it just felt finished when I added the guitars it felt like I'm a whole you know as as this album could be and as I wanted to present it. So thank you because yes the guitars were not supposed to be there because overseas as a artistic project was always about my synth experimental side and

And less about my guitarist side, but I'm happy to merge the two together now, you know. So I'm glad you're mentioning it, you know.

Brian Funk (06:53.793)

Mm.

It's interesting how I f I've found this a lot in my own path and in a lot of artists I've followed and spoken with how these things kind of come together eventually. A lot of times we go off on these paths and we take I w I was the same way, guitar player, you know, rock bands and not much in the way of keys or synthesizers really at all in any of the music that we played and

Then it sort of crept in a little bit and little I think that what really excited me was hearing kind of chip tune sounds in synthesizer, like putting just a square wave and be It sounds like Nintendo And I thought that was really cool and it had a lot of nostalgia from my childhood. And that started getting me kind of interested in it. And it was plugins of course at first and I had no idea why anyone would need to buy a physical synthesizer because

OVERSEA (sebastien) (07:40.981)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (07:54.92)

of how much you could do with plugins until I got my hands on a physical synthesizer and I was like, I I get it. Turning the knobs, controlling interacting with it like a like a like an instrument, I guess, like a machine that you can play with. but then a lot of my music started to go on in that direction and it it'd been a little while since I'd picked up the guitar, which has really always been the way I interact with music the most and the

OVERSEA (sebastien) (07:57.839)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (08:24.873)

I understand music the most through the guitar. and I'm kind of at that point too where now the blending and incorporating and almost doing synthesizer like things to my guitar and and guitar like things to my synthesizers running. We were talking about I've got the Chroma console here running it through guitar pedals. it's been a lot of fun. So it's nice to hear how there's like a sort of

OVERSEA (sebastien) (08:35.06)

Instead of value by these houses.

Brian Funk (08:54.123)

You know, three sixty kind of thing happening for you.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (08:57.611)

Yeah, and I think it's a you know, it's kind of a conversation between our different sides and our different kind of love for sounds. I don't know if it feels like this for you, but you know, like you were saying, y the guitar inspired you to play synth differently and synth in inspired you to play guitar differently and and I feel the same way. and i it just opened up so much in my music, getting into synth and and also just

wanting to have my guitar sound different. You know, I I I w I was sh I don't know, I've been playing for fifteen years, you know, playing guitar for fifteen years and although I was always passionated by different sounds and pedals, I was like very early on I had pedals and I was messing around with with the pedals. But just to kind of the synth world is is another kind of metaverse out there, you know?

Brian Funk (09:47.213)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (09:57.381)

And when you get into it, it kind of

start this conversation with the rest of your I mean it did for me in in my case. It started a conversation for me in the guitar world as well. It just like wanted to treat it differently. You were saying that and I think it's it's it's one of those moments where you feel like you're evolving as a musician also and it's it's one of those beautiful way to kind of counter any plateau effect that we can have at some point because you know you know how it is when we've been playing

playing for so long, sometimes it it it you can kind of feel in a rut and just finding ways to rediscover your instrument by using other instruments to inform this conversation is I mean it was a big part of of my journey and and and my musical journey because I don't really like the word career but in in everything I do today has been inspired by how I got away from guitar to come back to it with a different

an angle you know so it's it's funny you know.

Brian Funk (11:05.172)

Yeah, it it does. I find that a lot with all the different ways I guess I interact with making music now, which I'm guessing you probably have, you know, coming from guitar, you I imagine you played and probably groups and bands and learned making music that way and then you get into sequencing and you get into these other methods of where it's more recorded based.

And you're writing that way, it's so nice, I guess, when you get down those roads a little bit to realize like, okay, today I could and this is also the source of a lot of my struggle and procrastination in that I don't know which one I want to pick to start with today, but I could start with the guitar, old style, make a song that way, or or maybe on a MIDI controller or maybe a sequencer. And there's always a fresh way to approach it.

when you have some of these different things going on. But which can also, like I said, be the problem too. You have too many options, too many choices.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (12:08.024)

Yeah, for sure. We can get lost in the kind of the geek world and and just having too many options. Most recently I was I had to my computer died, so I had to redo my whole Ableton and my whole and I had to go through all my plugins to f and I I think I I probably didn't reinstall all of them. And it's just the statement of sometimes we get so many of those sounds and plugins we don't even use because we're so used to what we use all the time and we

Brian Funk (12:19.464)

no.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (12:37.549)

we got we get distracted. So a lot of a a lot of beyond of this album and and my most recent work is was about just trying to get away from the the the plug in crazy mind, you know, like getting more plugins and just trying to be a bit more creative with what I have. Even with my synth, you know, I I I do have some dream synth in mind, but

for now this is my collection and and I try to be as creative and I think this is this is the way to kind of also to me was about to to to help me finish stuff. You know, it's it's about what what because we we asked the question about what we are missing or what we want to add to our collection arsenal in a way. But in the end it's it's how can we use what we have to be creative and to sound different.

than what we did two years ago or how to evolve from that. And this this road was was very inspiring to me and it and it still is because yeah some pedals on my board I've you know I have the I think it's the DL4 the line six DL4 delay that I had for I don't know 15 years but I'm still trying to find ways to to

to be inspired by it and and be excited when I do something with it. It's not always the case, but I think it's it's it's it's good to have this kind of almost gratitude like reverence towards what we have and and almost stretching it like yeah a a gratitude thing and and being creative with this to me was was a a big a big thing a few years ago. Hmm.

Brian Funk (14:04.438)

Mm.

Brian Funk (14:30.41)

I like that thought process, the gratitude of it. 'Cause we have, like you said, there's so many plugins, there's so many pieces of gear. It's so easy to get gear now and if you like it, you keep it, you send it back, you can return it. it's easy to dabble in a million different things, sell it on eBay if you don't want it. But that feeling, yeah, when I was younger and like I just got a guitar. It's like wow.

Like I have a guitar now and I can play it and it was so exciting. But when you can download a new plug in every twenty minutes, you c you know, I follow a lot of blogs and things w about the gear and you know, and I love keeping on top of it, but it's like there's always a new free thing, a new free thing, and you're like, cool, and you wanna get it. But every time you do, I guess it it does take away a little bit of that feeling of gratitude.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (15:03.061)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (15:29.388)

'Cause you don't get to really spend the time with stuff like we used to. 'cause you're on to the next thing and you how's it sound? Okay, cool. And then you just move on and try the next one instead of getting lost in it a little bit and some appreciation.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (15:33.684)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (15:40.759)

And and that's the beauty of it. And it's a lot about what I'm doing now is getting lost in the sound. And because I have this very almost meditative, meditative approach and contemplative approach to sound, which has kind of always had, but it's it it it's been even bigger now over the last few years. But it's it's just that.

time we give ourselves to get to know a sound or just experiment it in different ways and almost I'm using it almost to get into trance, you know, sometimes, but simple sound, meditative sound, and and yeah this this thing get lost into sound is very inspiring to me. And you know it's it's going back to the conversation we had about the Brahma console just a a few minutes ago.

I got mine six months ago before I was I got on tour and I just got it set it to what I needed to do for the tour. But I didn't even I don't even know how to use probably sixty percent of it, seventy percent of it, because now it's controlled by MIDI on on stage so it does everything it needs to be doing.

But that's about it. And I actually I was thinking about that a few days ago. I was like, I think I should spend more time with this pedal because I mean my twelve years old kid, the the version of myself twenty plus years ago, would have been so excited, you know, and would have spent like an an entire summer digging into the sound. And sometimes it's like that. Just just just going back to that gratitude. I'm like, wow, all of all of what I have today is

Is is is so much that I could have dreamed of a few years ago, you know? yeah, still inspired to get new stuff because, you know, it's it's it's cool to keep it is qu yeah, keeping it fun and and sometimes trading stuff, getting out of a of of a rut by sending a synth and getting a new one or whatever. Just is it's good, but I think the the the

Brian Funk (17:31.103)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (17:36.255)

Yeah, it's new stuff. It's fun.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (17:51.422)

The Instagram culture and YouTube. I'm a big YouTube kid. And it and I had to unfollow a lot of musical gear pages because y you always feel like you're behind and you you don't have enough stuff. And and now I'm I'm trying to get back to this twelve, thirteen years old of myself who spends who spent like months with one pedal and and could get lost in the sound. I think what you said is really resonating with me. This this

I yeah. Like it's not just that we can't make it.

Brian Funk (18:23.787)

Yeah, I used to really get to know the things I had. Really 'cause there was no other choice. I mean, sh I fantasized about all the things we have now and all the capabilities we have, but I got a lot of creative work done trying to figure out ways around it. And I do think I've over bloated my computer. I'm sorry your computer went down.

I do have this kind of twisted fantasy of my own though of that happening so I could just start fresh. Like no samples, no plugins and and just add things in as I see fit and I need. I actually got a a lot of use out of a plug in uninstaller. I paid a couple of bucks for one I found somewhere and it searches I originally got it for duplicates, but then I was kinda like, you know, like I never use this one. I never use this one. And

got a little kind of disciplined on saying, like, if I'm not using it, it's getting in my way, it's distracting me really. So yeah, the the too much choice thing is we do that to ourselves sometimes. Hm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (19:38.389)

Yeah, we do, and I think it's just almost a a

overall social thing in in general and that we have in our lives. I don't want to get into like capitalism or whatever, but we just tend to accumulate and and I'm also a big fan of Rick Rubin and I I just love the the way he he used to say that he it what he wasn't producing music, it was reducing music. And I always like that kind of my mindset, you know? Even though Beyond took me two years and it was a lot about layering and

Brian Funk (20:05.253)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (20:14.727)

It was a a lot of sculpting the sound and it required that amount of presence presence and but but yeah, I also tried to get away from from accumulating sound or accumulating plugins. Because in the end in in the end I'm yeah, I'm looking at my plugin list. I have my favorite favorite

folder in Ableton and it's really only what I'm using mostly ninety eight percent of the time. Yeah.

Brian Funk (20:51.241)

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a good way to do it. That is a cool way to think of it, reducing music. I I don't think I mention this maybe, but I teach high school English and teach writing and so often the question if I have a writing assignment is how many words, how long does it have to be? And it's I hate this question so much because it it implies more words are better. So

If I'll say I say three hundred words, then you're just gonna put words on the paper until you get to three hundred and more and more is bet your sentences get long winded. But in reality it's it's about how few words can you do it in? That's what I want it to be. And I think even musically, it kind of occurred to me as you were speaking, we

OVERSEA (sebastien) (21:39.375)

Yeah, but

Brian Funk (21:47.603)

almost feel like it it needs to have lots of tracks. You know, it needs it's almost impressive to say, like, yeah, this last song I produced has, you know, ninety-six tracks and you know, seventy-two of them are vocals and all of these kind of things, which sometimes is great, but I'm really getting into the idea of like how few can I use also, 'cause almost like the gear

I can't appreciate all these little sounds and these little textures if there's a hundred other little sounds and textures dancing around it at the same time. And I think you do a really nice job on your record of allowing us to take in these sounds and appreciate them. You've there's a lot going on. I'm not not saying that it's it's simple by any means, but you've

got a way of allowing the things to have their time and get some presence with the sound so we can listen to them. Yeah, that's an interesting that wind chime sound you have is playing and then it reverses and we can really hear it where it's not getting kinda washed away in the crowd of sounds.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (23:02.849)

Yeah, well thank you so much. I'm so glad it comes out that way because when I was prepping the promo for the album and I was also prepping for this podcast, I went back into the sessions and I was looking at some of the yeah, the songs and I was like, Jesus Christ, there's a lot of things I I don't even know that that were in, you know. And it's it's and it was my whole thing when I was producing was about making it as

I wanted I wanted it to feel like a living organism, like you would go in a forest. Nothing feels like too much, nothing feels like too less, it feels feels perfect as it is. Yet everything is evolving and everything is kind of a for informing the next move and the next little plant or the next little whatever living organism there is. And I and that's what I wanted to do, but it also requires sometimes of yeah, layers. And I'm thinking

of the one of the track is it's called Down Here. I was just listening to it the other day and it's it's a lot of track. It's just for the pads because I wanted them to feel like something was

Yeah, evolving, very living organism, a tapestry of sound that wouldn't feel stagnant. But yet there's there's yeah, another song feel that that's called here. There here is called double name. And it's it's only really f five tracks, vocals, a few ambient and a bass. It's you know, it sometimes the song requires more and I think it's a little bit like you were saying about the the

the assignment, the English in inside assignment. It's it's always about what is in service of the message, the conversation, the song, the the art, whatever the sculpture, whatever the the the convers I mean the the object is about. But it's it's really about what is serving, you know? And yeah, going back to the to the sessions, I also found that a lot of what I had done in my session were muted. And I was like, that's amazing.

Brian Funk (25:07.412)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (25:15.996)

I actually thought of moving like removing stuff. I didn't delete them for some reason because probably I was like fear of losing the idea. But it was muted. I was like, I didn't didn't remember muting these, but it's amazing because it really actually gives space for more to happen. So yeah, it's it was a mix of a lot of work, a lot of detail work and a lot of letting go as well. Just like, I think this.

Brian Funk (25:26.794)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (25:45.949)

This is done as as as is, yeah. So it's a hybrid hybrid thing.

Brian Funk (25:49.002)

Mm.

Brian Funk (25:53.865)

Yeah. Yeah, the mute button has been a friend for me. I I tend to like to build the stuff up and keep adding and adding. And then when it's time to do mixing or even really just arranging, it's almost like what's the least amount I can get away with now? Where is 'cause there's some weird paradox that happens,

I think guitar really taught me this, where you would think the more guitar layers I put in, the bigger the guitars are gonna sound. But it just sounds like a lot of little guitars now inside the music. Whereas if it was just one you could really hear it and it can be up front and all the little noises and textures and tiny details are very easy to pick up on. But as soon as you start layering in, it's they

There's like a point where it yeah, this sounds big, it sounds great and then you get down the road and you're like, Huh, why do the guitars sound so weak? And it's 'cause there's too many of them and they're just sort of blurring each other.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (26:57.331)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (27:04.655)

Yeah, it's the c character of of each song i each sound we use, I I feel like. And also not I I don't wanna feel like a nostalgic person, but I mean, I think in in the old days of music we we we did that a lot more, you know, just focusing on the sound and getting the right sound from the get-go, you know, from the source had to be good and we didn't rely so much on the post-production. It was it was really about how can we get this sound to

Brian Funk (27:25.065)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (27:34.598)

Sound good, this guitar and how can we get the

the performance as well. I think it was a lot more about the the living music, you know. and and today we tend it's probably also this gear thing we're go going back to this conversation, it's we tend to forget about just the performance and the humanity of it, you know, just just putting ourselves into the music. It's so easy to comp stuff, to edit and to get that perfect take and and we

We all know about that, but w what if it's a little bit wrong? What if it's a little bit out of time? And what if it's it's it's not being duplicated? Even my some of the the yeah, this the synth line bass synth I'm doing in one of the song, originally it was just one loop.

that I it was a midi clip that I looked and lit also a at the final stage of the the album of mixing the album I I thought I think I should just replay that through the same synth but not having it played as a midi clip played four times but just play it and even though it might not change everything, it will give some humanity to it. And to me i it was a lot about that, especially with this album

I wanted I wanted it to feel yeah, a living organism so I didn't want it to feel too perfect. I think we have a lot of perfect around us or pseudo perfect, you know? And just the way you were saying it, the the more guitars might not be the best. And I'm guilty of it too, you know. I get booked to record guitars remotely and my tendency is to send twenty guitars for one song and then I'm listening back to

OVERSEA (sebastien) (29:31.206)

the song once once once the artist is finished producing it and they only send back I mean the the finished song is only two guitars I sent and I'm like wow you're right that was enough. I need to go back to channeling my Rick rubbing a little bit, you know? But it's a it's always so interesting.

Brian Funk (29:41.899)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Hm. I think that's a cool thing to do, like you said, playing like the MIDI clip out. You know, in that case, are you performing it or are you just letting it play through performance? So so the timing is gonna change a little, subtle velocity differences and yeah, all of that. You might not notice

OVERSEA (sebastien) (30:03.99)

Performance. Performance. Yeah. Yeah. I I think so. means that

Brian Funk (30:19.283)

But I do think you feel. I I really do. I think we kinda our brain sort of recognizes when something's kind of being like photocopied over and over again and spit back out compared to when it's not and it it's a little more fluid.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (30:38.806)

Yeah, and I think it works for s for certain genres or even for certain songs. I'm not very it might not be genre specific, but some certain songs feel good when it's very, very tightly repetitive. And and and it can also get you into a trance state, you know? It's it's very interesting how how we can use this to inform brain waves. But in general, especially with this album I wanted

Brian Funk (30:39.016)

Those are

Brian Funk (30:44.446)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (31:04.492)

really wanted it to feel fluid and and just very very nature like so that's why I I I really took as much time as possible to make make sure I was playing most of the stuff and and not just yeah duplicated the the midi clips which is yeah not not bad in itself but that was my kind of memo and my kind of momentum at that time

Brian Funk (31:33.0)

Yeah. Yeah, and that's I mean, obviously I think probably almost everybody listening now w does that on some level and it's great you can you can duplicate out those MIDI clips and hear what the song sounds like over time without having to play everything. And you can't like you you did, you can go back and edit if you want, but yeah, sometimes it works too. Maybe we're in a time too where

we want a little more humanity. We're seeing a lot of computer generated, AI generated stuff all the time. And it is nice to know you're getting something alive and breathing. And something even just about the fact that you decided to take the effort to perform it when you could have just done that.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (32:16.908)

I think we could do that if you just have it out there.

Brian Funk (32:26.801)

It's that little bit of little bit of sweat in the creative product creative process I guess that is kinda nice to know that some effort went into it, that it wasn't just the technology taking over. I'm appreciating that much more these days than ever before.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (32:43.193)

Yeah and Yeah. Same, same, especially yeah, with the the the rise of the AI world and

I think we want more human behind the stuff we read, we listen, we watch, we even our emails sometimes I'm like, this feels like it's it's a Chat GPT email, you know? I'm like Who's who's the real person behind this email? I don't wanna send back a a Chat GPT email, you know? It's like I we're not having a conversation, it's just our different yeah, AI machine or whatever to

Brian Funk (33:20.443)

I get so many of those. just send me the prompt. Courteous email asking for, you know, whatever. Cause it feels deceitful. I and I get it for the podcast a lot. I get these emails that are just AI and they fool me and and I get upset 'cause it used to be w all of the I don't know, like PR people I guess are sending me

OVERSEA (sebastien) (33:24.276)

Yeah, easier. Just create a key.

Brian Funk (33:48.741)

emails that they're sending to every podcast. They're just blasting them out. And I could tell in the past I this is just one of these emails. There's nothing personal in it. We love your podcast and it what's a music production podcast in like a different font than the rest of the email counts on. But now it's saying things like, your Sebastian your c your Sebastian conversation was so interesting. How you guys talked about the mergence of electric guitars meets el electronic instrument

You know, gives me a little bit of a thing in there that is very specific detail about some conversation and then they ask me if I wanna have like you know, like an auto mechanic on the show. It's like so unrelated after that. Like I I find that really frustrating and those those are though, they're they're just an easy delete. I mean, I'm not getting a person. I feel like I don't they're not expecting me to get back to them. They're not waiting for me.

But I what bothers me about that I guess is that there are other people like like you, for instance, when we started speaking, I you were human, I could tell right away, but as this technology starts mimicking in that, I'm afraid I'm gonna start missing it when a real person is writing me something genuine and heartfelt. It's gonna be confusing and you know

OVERSEA (sebastien) (35:07.802)

For sure. It yeah, it's it's it's slowly st it's tasked to creep in, right? Yeah.

Brian Funk (35:17.448)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (35:18.176)

Even in the music industry and and it it's it's yeah, it's I'm not kind of against it in in any way. I think it's it's beautiful to have the tools to help us focus on other stuff. But I'm I'm very aware that we are human beings and we are in a living world and it's it's especially going back to art, it's it's about our own expression and our

way to experience the world and experience certain yeah, I I talk a lot about about transcendental experiences, but whatever it is, you know, whatever you experience in life, it this is what makes people want to listen to music. whether it's gospel or you know, or electronic music today, it's it's it's about who it is to sing this story with sound, with words, with painting, you know, with colours, whatever.

whatever it is I think it's it's it's for me this is all about it. Otherwise it doesn't make sense if I'm not having this devotion for humanity in a way and and to create music for someone who will appreciate it it's I'm not making it for the for the the the bots I'm making it for the the the human beings and and in that way I feel like I have a responsibility towards the

people who listen to my music and to and and the people who will listen, you know, especially because I'm I'm in a sp specific kind of musical world slash yeah, it's it I have this bridge with with neuroscience and I work a lot with meditation and and different type of practices. I feel like it's all about the intention we have in what we do and I I I couldn't feel I I couldn't look myself in the mirror

Or if I was not make pouring my heart and my soul into the the work I'm doing and taking I don't know shortcuts with with AI, it wouldn't feel right for me. But again, this is just my point of view. I'm not against it, but in in the

OVERSEA (sebastien) (37:37.923)

work I do, I feel like I have this I have to have this devotion because it it makes the the the the experience I'm I hope to give a bit more real or just just a bit more human. True, true, yeah.

Brian Funk (37:54.098)

But

Yeah. Yeah, I guess I have the problem with the deceit of it, the mimicking of it. but obviously there's there's great uses and all of that. but I I can see where you're coming from, especially with the style of music you're you've just put out, that you wanted to have that. I'm kind of interested in what you said about like the meditative stuff and the

almost like scientific aspect of it that you're you were getting at. because also, before we started recording, we were just kinda chatting and you mentioned surfing and it's something I I've liked to do in the past though. I've had a little time off. I don't know if I'm allowed to label myself a surfer right now, but I love it and so much of it is that meditative aspect. It's not unlike

I'm like for surfing, it's not anything other than just enjoying the time doing it. I'm not trying to really get better or compete or anything like that. it's sit it's enjoying sitting out on the ocean and if a wave comes, going with it. But it is one of those things a lot like music where when you're doing it, everything else kind of melts away. So y you you

Go out there and whatever's on your mind, whatever's bothering you, you get a break from it. 'Cause there there are moments of intensity, you know, in there where you can't be thinking about other things. And that break I find to be really nice 'cause then you get out of the water and now you're on a different angle. You're you're looking at whatever's going on in life from a new perspective. You're not just stewing in those thoughts that are taking over your mind.

Brian Funk (39:49.585)

So I what I was originally thinking was like kind of this idea that there's these meditative qualities to being in the zone of making music too. and there's parallels with that, with something like surfing. But I'm kind of interested now where you're going with some of that other stuff you just mentioned.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (39:52.03)

There's really good pieces.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (40:11.133)

man, there's so much I want to to talk about right now. Well, just to touch on the the surf topic, because I think it it it it really is similar to music in a way. It's that flow state you're talking about. That very

Brian Funk (40:12.648)

Yeah, I i it feels like we just found something.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (40:31.849)

very unique moment where nothing else exists. And I think this is one of the most beautiful thing we can ever experience as as as beings, you know. It's like being I don't I don't wanna sound too corny or tore or t or too spiritual woo-woo but it's but being here now, you know? And it's it's it really is that feeling. And I think to me it's surfing is is is a lot like you were saying is

I'm I'm not surfing to get to be a pro. It's not my path, but I'm surfing to be out in the ocean and and just out in the surf. And I I think I had some of my most mystical experience out there. You know, in the morning with the when the lights the light comes out, the sun comes out. It's it's so magical. And and a lot of it is is is a buffer for me because I'm I've I've been working a lot in the studio and

When I need that that buffer, I find that same flow state that I can have in my studio. But as you said, with a different angle, you're looking at even just just the way of being in the water and looking at the ocean and looking at the cliffs or the the beach wherever you are. But it makes you look at things differently. And and for this album and going back to this conversation about meditation and flow.

I've over the last few years, so much of my music has been about creating s soundscapes and and spaces almost in music to be able to experience something transcendental or something meditative or something just just rest. I think I I wanted to question my own status quo about music.

I was an I was in a band, I toured the world with my rock psychedelic band for years and it it w it was it was a fun a fun way to look at music and I am not separating music into better or if if it served this or if it doesn't it doesn't make it better or worse. But today I wanted to make a music that served another part of us.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (42:48.559)

the part that needed rest or needed to as you were saying this morning, just listening to the song and kind of feel at ease or work on the nervous system in a different way. And also have been very passionated and and did some research in my degree and my master degree especially around brainwave therapies and how we can use music to support

Brian Funk (43:12.539)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (43:16.176)

support us as living beings and and just support our creative states, our rest restes and and this is was this was a big part of of Beyond, but I think it's just a big part of my music at the moment and the music I've been doing for with oversee, you know, this project of mine. Was it was a lot more about this type of space than than than it was before.

And and today for me I think the music is is is is a medicine. Again, I don't wanna sound too sp spiritual woo-woo slash corny, but it is a medicine for me, you know? And I think it it it has been for years and there is there are t I mean tons of research that show how that shows how music was was

Brian Funk (43:56.283)

Right.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (44:11.82)

a tool in the past and still is, you know. And I've been very intrigued by how therapeutic music can be and how we can use it and and bridge bridge the ancestral knowledge with the neuroscience knowledge that we have today and and have this bridge and this conversation with the two worlds. And that's often why I say that I do electroacoustic music because

It's not so electronic, it's not so acoustic, but it's a bit of both. And I think it's it's it's a reflection of this these two worlds, you know, the ancestral knowledge of music and and and and this magic that we we we had. E even like when we listened to gospel or or the first blues songs, you you feel that this there's something of the

Brian Funk (44:54.663)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (45:02.018)

the heart and the soul and and and it kind of evolved and and beautiful but I I'm I'm interested in into going back to this and creating these these soundscapes, these spaces and beyond for me was was really a space, you know. I wanted to create a a space that you can walk in and maybe have a breath work, maybe have a

I I'm working with also psychologists that that work with psychedelic therapies and I y you know, I wanted to have this this bridge and explore this with with music. So this is really w where I'm at with the music and and beyond was created, constructed that way.

Brian Funk (45:50.258)

Well, the album title makes a lot more sense now. Right. You know, I I understand your caveat, I guess, of not to get too spiritual woo-woo and all that. but it is something I think we kind of can't deny that something is happening. when you're

OVERSEA (sebastien) (45:53.098)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (46:17.009)

If you're at a concert and you're having this kind of communal experience with all these strangers, like when you're there, it's it's real. It something's definitely going on. And I know we don't have all the data and it's hard stuff to collect data on, but I don't think you really need it to know that it's happening. it's it's very interesting to find out what it actually is and the science behind it.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (46:21.264)

It's a very interesting thing to find out there actually.

Brian Funk (46:47.323)

But yeah, it is very therapeutic and medicinal in a lot of ways. It's maybe not the same as taking like I don't know, like a a pill to make a headache go away or something. But it it has real effects. I mean, I think my life would be a lot different without that, without that release. All those times I've come to make music and take time away from life and get a breather.

to not be ruminating on thoughts and caught up in the cycle that just, you know, to think about just the way our minds work, where we have a thought and you get on it like it's a train and you it's it could be total fiction. This they're mad at me. That text message came out and you just suddenly you're off to the races and you're in this whole other place.

And it can be just totally made up in your own head. But if I could add up all the times something like a a music session took me out of that and brought me back and give me a little perspective, I think that's probably very significant and I'd probably be a much different person and have much different relationships, I'm sure. I'd be much less tolerable of a person without all of that going on.

There's something real going on there. And surfing is like that too, that gives you that. And surfing is really interesting in that it takes a lot of these kind of abstract concepts like flow and

those types of states and it's real physical. Like you have to literally ride the wave. You can't fight the ocean. Like you'll never win. And and when you work with the ocean, it it's almost easy. It's fluid. It's it's you know, you just kinda coast. But when you try to fight it, it just smashes you.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (48:40.47)

No. No.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (48:56.14)

Yeah, again, it feels like a conversation, right? You know, it's like i y you have the an information coming at you and it's how how will you respond to it and how will you flow with it? And there is it's so funny that we're having this conversation because I was part of a project called Waves of Life two years ago which

Brian Funk (49:17.904)

Waves of life.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (49:18.892)

Waves of life, yeah. And it was all about that, you know, how art or surfing and and all this type of concept can actually be teachings for our wor for I mean for our lives in in general. And and and also I'm just making the connection that one of the song of the album started when I was working on this waves of life because I w it it it felt so inspiring to me that t to to take this concept of i

Being in the flow, I think, as you said, it's it's a very

bizarre concept to to tou touch on, you know. And unless you're a musician or you're an artist or you're maybe you you in certain type of sport, I'm sure you get that as well. It's like you get in that zone, then you understand what it is, but most of the time we're we are far away from being in the flow. And and this is what's been interesting to me, you know, it's trying to

to help the process of being in the flow and kind of talk about it and be an advocate for it, you know, it's like th this is places we can go to and this is places that we are allowed to go to because I think there's also yeah the the the acceptance of it. But so anyway, I'm getting lost in the in the thought of it. But it's just

Brian Funk (50:52.342)

Mm-hmm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (50:54.083)

Just such an i an interesting topic and and you're you were seeing the the thoughts the thoughts train and th and stuff like this. I'm I'm a bit big meditation guy. I do two meditations a day, I do yoga every day, so it's it's a big part of my life. But but i in the end it's it's only to serve

me being a better person, a better musician and and just being a more I don't know what you said, but it was very funny the way you said it about music. Like if you hadn't music you would feel so different and i i it's the same for me and I think music is also a type of meditation and we have all these labels around meditation and around

Brian Funk (51:36.741)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (51:49.601)

what meditation should be or should look like and I think flow in a lot of of of the the moment we can feel flow is meditation as a at its best, you know, like if you get into a sound on your on your synth and you get in that moment where two, three hours pass by and you record something and it feels just right. And you didn't

see those two hours pass by. This is the isn't isn't this the most beautiful thing? You know? It's it's so medicinal for yourself and once you finish the piece of music it might be for someone else and this is the type of exchange I'm I'm really interested in, you know, and it's the conversation between the surf and the surfer, the musician and the music. And it it's it's all about that. That that's

Brian Funk (52:21.286)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (52:43.809)

That's part of the the work I'm trying to achieve. Yeah.

Brian Funk (52:49.456)

Hm. Yeah, it's nice. That is often the feeling I'm chasing is the getting lost in it and where everything kind of melts away, the time fades. It there is no time really. It there's nothing. There's just what's happening in the moment and it it always is refreshing and it's fun. It

the the hard parts of it even are enjoyable and I I think that's where I wanna be when I decide to start and can't always get there for one reason or another, but when you when you tap into it, it is just quite a cool place to be. And and you almost don't know you're there and and as soon as you realize you are, you you run the risk of popping out of it.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (53:45.086)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's it's a fine line.

Brian Funk (53:46.566)

But

OVERSEA (sebastien) (53:50.102)

I think there's there's interesting musician and composer that brought this aspect into music. I think I I'm thinking of of John Cage, you know, in the four I think it was it the forties, fifties, where he started to take classical music into a new a new direction and I'm also thinking I think the that guy name is Lum Le Mount Young, something like like this. Le Mount Young. I think he's a Canadian guy. Same area of

of John John Cage era. but I I remember seeing one of the music music partitions and music shit for one of the song and it's basically two notes. I think it's a B and an F charm. And the only indication that you have is play for a long time. And you only have those two notes and and it's kind of

This is the kind of concept I'm I'm very interesting in, you know, as a composer and as a musician and just as a being as well, as a meditation practitioner, whatever. It's just like having this experience that we are living beings and that we also are experiencing time into different in different ways and and music is such a beautiful way to get into it and and kind of

feel time, disappear and come back and and I think the work of these these guys, yeah, the minimalist guys in those days. I don't know if we we can really call them the minimalist, but

the those guys, John Cage, Le Mount DeYoung, those those type of composers, they are a good entry into this type of flow states. If it's hard to to experience this these states, I found them really inspiring and i I find that they were a very good way to practice it in the first place. Just like playing two notes on a keyboard and

OVERSEA (sebastien) (55:58.012)

waiting for I don't know two, three, four, five, ten minutes and suddenly you don't hear the same beef, B and F sharp the same way you you've heard it like for the past four minutes, it suddenly starts to shift and you get into that little bit of a interstellar feeling, you know and

Brian Funk (56:15.097)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (56:22.682)

everything d dis dissipate anyway. So I think this is a a very beautiful way to experiment different aspect of our of our human self. That's something I'm very passionate about.

Brian Funk (56:37.827)

It is funny that time gets perceived differently because it is so steady, right? It's just ticking along and we use it in music. It's time based. yet you can sort of lose track of it. We feel it differently all the time.

And sometimes the very repetitive rhythm of the music, the timing, takes us there. It it because we're so focused on the time, we almost lose it. Like maybe in a s in a way how if you listen to those two notes playing over time, I guess you start to hear the other frequencies, not just those fundamentals and they start to come together in new ways and you notice

almost like new sounds within it. New new layers of time. Something going on.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (57:36.386)

New layers of time. I like that. This is a good good good one.

Brian Funk (57:41.495)

Yeah.

I wanna I because this is like we can spend a lot of time here too. but y one of the things you mentioned was like using Ableton Live as an instrument. And I think this is a really fun way to look at it. It's kind of how I got into it. I'd been playing music recording and got into some other DAWs and always sort of felt like I was making music against it. And

what I really loved about recording and all the things I found interesting, all my favorite artists too did this. They experimented with the studio like it was an instrument and played it. And then when I finally wrapped my head around Ableton Live, I was like, this is the studio's an instrument now. It's part of my creative process. And I got real excited about that. So I'm kinda curious how that is for you, how you use it like an instrument.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (58:42.061)

Yeah, well, very similar story. I started, you know, I started recording music. I was 12 and I was using a very early version of Pro Tools. And and then I moved on to Logic Pro because I was in the UK learning I was in at a music college in in the UK and everyone was using Logic Pro, so I moved on to Logic Pro.

and and it's it was more recently I got into Ableton because similar similar story most of my music inspiration and and favorite artists were were using Ableton and and first of all the way I found it so interesting is that especially in the beginning

You know, when you're learning an instrument, y you're learning to work with the resistance of the instrument. So if you play guitar, you have the frets and the the the strings and there is so many little details of resistance that you have to learn about. And and learning Ableton was so different. I mean, to me, it felt like another world.

than l than Pro Tools, you know, like even though like even the way it's it's presented on the page, everything is on the left, you know, in in in Pro Tools and and all the input and everything. I mean the the the important stuff are on the right in in in Ableton. And it felt like an instrument in that way for me because it felt like I had so much resistance to learn again, you know, and it it felt like I needed to have this

I mean the word conversation comes up again. It was it was a very more it was it was a lot more of a conversation between what I could do, what I wanted to do, and it it was it was very much in the service of how can I create sound with it. Whereas before it was just serving, you know, Pro Tools was just serving me as a

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:00:58.868)

as a yeah, as a studio to record my music, basically. And suddenly Ableton kind of opened up that space and the little resistance I f I felt like I'm I I feel like I'm holding a guitar but Ableton was the same, you know, it was learning the resistance of the the the the DAW but it was it was an instrument to me around around that time already.

And then, you know, I was I was always having like this joke with my my best friend who's an incredible producer aga also. I was like, I'd I would love to get into modular synth, but I will do that when I'm fifty, because before it's it's too much for me. But what I found in Ableton was exactly what I was looking in modular synth, you know, is that kind of

Brian Funk (01:01:47.598)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:01:52.856)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:01:56.905)

infinite possibility of choices and way of using the plugins and it's it's very more cre I mean to me it feels a lot more creative than how Pro Tools felt a few years ago when I was still using it, you know. And the plugin chain and the way you can create plug-in racks. It's still very new to me. I still feel like I'm learning the instrument as I go. You know and I think beyond was a a

It was a it was a the Ableton Academy for me, you know, because there were places I wanted to go with the psychoacoustics, the places I wanted to go with the music in general and the way I wanted it to feel. Again, I wanted to the music to feel like a place, a space you w you would go into. And and Ableton was allowing me to do this, but it was it was a lot of learn as I as I yeah, learning as I was doing it.

Brian Funk (01:02:30.372)

Mm-hmm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:02:55.611)

And and again I was as I was prepping for this podcast, I I was going back to the to the sessions and and realizing that so much of the combinations and and so much of how I use the plugins and how they interacted with each other, I I could have never done or perhaps never thought of in in Pro Tools. And I'm not trashing Pro Tools because I think I still think it's an amazing DAW for

You know, I think it's it's it's different instruments, you know. And and today Ableton i it really is in the service of what I'm trying to do. A lot more than than yeah, Pro Tools or Logic had been in the past. And and I think to me it's it's really this modular mind that made it for me. And still feel like I can explore a lot more. I'm not a big

Brian Funk (01:03:28.91)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:03:53.608)

gig guy so I I'm not I I'm not yet into the Max for live world but perhaps that will open up in the the next few years. I I do have a few devices and stuff but you know I'm not a I'm I'm not so much of a of a developer guy or yeah crazy intelligent person like that. But I'm very fascinated by it, you know.

Brian Funk (01:04:14.104)

Yeah. Me neither.

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:04:20.151)

But yeah, the instrument for me, yeah, Ableton, the instrument is is the modulo synth I was looking for. But a lot cheaper because I I know that we have a lot of sense.

Brian Funk (01:04:26.978)

Hmm. Yeah. I think that's what kept me out of modular synths was just financial restrictions, you know, because you can really go wild there. but they they have built so much inside a live that it really does feel like a modular synth. You can drop LFOs and have it modulate anything and all these envelope followers and you get a lot of cool interaction.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:04:51.684)

Yeah. Yeah, and also I was I was getting into generative music back like a few years ago and I was listening to a lot of Brianino and I mean Ableton was so good for me to experiment this, you know, with yeah the LFOs and you just use a very slow LFO on one

Brian Funk (01:04:56.024)

with your music that way. Are

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:05:18.156)

one little macro that you want to assign to and and to anything, you know? And it it just felt very very living. Again, I'm going back to this word, but it's really what I'm trying to do in music. It's it's it does I don't want it to feel too stagnant or too static. And and Ableton is so good for that. So good.

Brian Funk (01:05:31.874)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:05:46.5)

Well that's what we love about instruments, I think, too. your guitar. Every time you play a single note, it's different. It's it's subtle, but it's different. It's slightly different. And if you watch the notes on the tuner, they're n they're not right on the green dot perfectly in tune, they kinda waver around it. And even

Hardware synthesizers have a little bit of that where some days there's something funny going on and they just respond a little bit differently. And you can really program a lot of that stuff in. Like you said, you can decide more now. Instead of I I have an old Moog, it's like the Radio Shack Mogue. It was the let's see the MG one, the concertmate. So it was like a cheaper consumer style.

synthesizer from the eighties and it sounds really awesome but it's a little bit broken. Right now it's like kind of broken in a cool way where I can get some fun stuff out of it. But I can imagine a little bit further down the road it's a problem. I tape machine too, where you know f until I had it serviced recently, but before that it was almost unusable. It was just problems with it.

In live you can decide. All right, I want it to be like, you know, I'm gonna take that slow LFO and I'm gonna just put it on the pitch of this synth. And it's gonna just happen sort of randomly over time, but only this much, you know. N not to a degree where it ruins the music, but enough where it just helps it breathe a little bit. and the ability to make those decisions is a lot of fun and I think it does make for some more

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:07:23.235)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:36.78)

organic, lively sounding music when you start adding those things up.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:07:39.64)

Yeah, organic too is organic is definitely the word and that's how I use it. It's I try to use it as organic as possible as possible. And and and and really feels like an extension to the synth for me, Ableton. And it's it's almost a a synth recording station and and and yeah, beyond was so much of the songs there were LFOs and LFOs and LFOs and LFOs triggering small stuff and

And everything it was really my my thing at that time, you know, when I was making the album. I want everything to feel like it's moving and like a breathing organism and and the tapestry of sound couldn't feel static. And yeah, Ableton was a game changer in the way that it really opened up my my musical perspective onto what I could do. Never thought I could do that before. And also the attention to detail I could have I could go into

to with Ableton just just was not in in my headspace or in my my view before using Ableton for sure.

Brian Funk (01:08:54.627)

Do you work inside the session view at all?

Like the clip based view?

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:09:02.323)

No, mostly arrangement. Clip based, I mostly use it for life for when I'm taking stuff live. because I'm also I'm an D for s for artist and I also work for them and building Ableton live sessions for certain shows. And I like using the this view for for this but mo when I'm writing or composing I'm I'm still

Brian Funk (01:09:04.728)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:09:32.277)

old school in the way I I I like to see the arrangement.

Brian Funk (01:09:37.25)

Yeah, I mean, eventually you always have to get there, right? Like if you ever want to export anything, it does need to get to the arrangement. I was sort of just thinking about how when you're in that session view, you're nonlinear, so you don't have to think about the timeline as much. And that was something that I got really into early on because I was like, cool, I can have a bunch of musical ideas.

And instead of just putting them down and hoping it works and then trying to move them around if they don't, I can just kind of trigger them and jam on the arrangement, which I thought was a really exciting new way to write music in that. Okay, so I've got these ideas swirling in my head. What happens if I go here? And then I go here and the drums from the verse will happen in the chorus. That was cool. I didn't expect that. You can kind of mix things up in a fun way.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:10:13.515)

Yeah, that's right. There's probably thirty thing covered for you. But this have your item for your part of time as well.

Brian Funk (01:10:36.183)

But it's you still have your timing, but you're off the timeline. Right. So we it again, like to come back to this concept of like losing track of time and I find that to be a lot of fun to just sort of jamming on these things and sometimes you're doing it for twenty minutes and discovering how the parts should connect and how things should interact with each other in a

Totally new way, almost like you would with people playing music with them.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:11:09.366)

True. Yeah, it's actually now that you s that that you talk about it first it it makes me want to do it. So thank you for the inspiration. a lot more. And and also yeah because I also do some

Brian Funk (01:11:18.485)

Mm-hmm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:11:25.977)

live version of this album and I also do a lot of soundbath but I don't like to call them soundbath because I think they are too attached to this specific label of spiritual world soundbath. But I I do a modern version of it and I do use the clip view for for for that. And to me going back to that is how you can combine things combine things the way you would have never

thought of but because you are in the flow, you are in the moment of it. You think it's it's these I don't know these synth I have in in there. If I put them with waves that I recorded in Portugal and I put them together, how will they interact? And if I add this vocal part I recorded and this things that I would have never thought about even yeah a few years ago.

Brian Funk (01:11:57.347)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:12:23.983)

I I I actually do them, so thank you because I didn't think about it, but I I never took them into a composition state. So it's something I'm definitely inspired to do now. Definitely inspired to try that. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:38.359)

Hmm. cool. Yeah, you just hit that record button at the top and anything you do in your session view just gets printed. And yeah, I I often will when I'm coming up with a song, just sort of do that for a while and then listen back and hear if anything cool happened and then then it's like the reduction process of the production process just to figure out, okay, it's not gonna be twenty minutes long, but

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:13:03.299)

Yeah. Yeah, and the surprises, that's that's the beauty. I I always think this yeah, yeah, the surprises and feeling like it's it's not

Brian Funk (01:13:08.083)

What what are the highlights and that kind of stuff?

Brian Funk (01:13:14.945)

Yeah. It leads to a lot of that, yeah. The surprises.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:13:22.144)

I don't know w where you sit with this, but I feel like when I'm making music I feel connected to some kind of source or that's how I like to call it. Some people might call it God or universe or whatever, Buddha.

I like to call it the source and and sometimes I feel like it I'm not making the choice not just on my own. I'm kind of guided to make certain choices. And I feel like it's a good way to open up to maybe it's just a question of surprises. maybe it's serendipity, may I d I don't know what it is. In the end, whatever.

if we believe it or not. But it's it's such a beautiful way to to get to experience stuff you wouldn't have thought about. And I think it to me Ableton i it is about that in general. It's I mean for me it was a big a big turning point in in recorded music in on my on my on my journey, you know. Everything was being questioned in the in the best way, you know.

Brian Funk (01:14:27.81)

Mm.

Yeah. Right. Yeah, it it does sometimes feel that way. Yeah, it's mist it's a mysterious thing. There's it doesn't always feel like you're doing it. And sometimes it feels like you're finding it, like I like you have a net and you just caught it or or sometimes it's coming through you. But yeah, I'm okay with like those sort of magical explanations.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:14:42.375)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:59.732)

I think that's I I only think that helps me get there and it sort of takes me off the hook a little bit to kind of think in those terms too, where it's not really me, it's just you know, it's you find these songs, you find these ideas or they come to you or they come through you. it's like you as long as you're working, it's like having the like T V antenna up

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:15:04.174)

L C One

Brian Funk (01:15:28.726)

Like you can connect, like but you have to sort of do your part of starting things up.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:15:36.29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I I mean, I can think of multiple times in in this album where I I kind of felt like I had to do the music I was hearing in my head. especially there's one song called Behind Your Heart. I just had the baseline for this song, which is the big sub. It's kind of the central piece of the album. And

I had this bass idea. It was coming from my prophet and it was sitting in my computer for weeks. There was one Sunday I woke up and I had the whole sound, the whole song, the whole melodies and everything in my head. And it felt like it it I couldn't have

think that myself, you know, it was just it was something else. So I was like I was telling my opponent, I was like, I'm sorry, I I'm gonna have this Sunday without you. I'm so sorry, but I need to get in the studio because this this thing is almost like chatter. I can't hear you talk to me. I need to get into the studio and and put these ideas onto the into the yeah and and record them.

And it's it's it's this practice of to me, it feels like it's a practice of being here, being present, but also practicing the music, the the the synth, the guitar, being able to being in in service of those moments so you can flow and

just not think about the technicalities of it, you know, and and and just be in the flow and know your know your tool and also that's one thing to go back to one of the the the earlier conversation is is when we accumulate too much stuff we tend not to know them as much, you know, with the gear. And when you get to that state where you know your pedals, you know your synth

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:17:39.16)

when these ideas, this inspiration strikes in, you are able to go full in because you don't have to read the manual kind of vibe, you know? And and this is this is really what I'm not chasing

Brian Funk (01:17:48.288)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:17:54.97)

Chasing wouldn't be the right word, I don't really like it, but yeah, kind of being ready for when the inspiration hits, being ready to deliver and and and and be in response to this. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:18:09.706)

Yeah, kind of be in shape. Like musically in shape. And yeah, I find that also just with the actual setup too, understanding how things are working and being aware. I mean there's nothing that kills a creative moment than like, how's this work? Well how do I figure this thing out? So it's good to Yeah, it's funny, right? All these things, like you have to be open to it, but you have to also

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:18:31.787)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:18:39.306)

kinda do the practice, the exercise of it and you gotta go with the flow with it, you gotta be receptive, you gotta also know when to take control. There's so many different kinds of like mindsets you gotta get into and you gotta know when to do it and when not to.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:19:02.183)

I think it's such a beautiful mirror to what being a musician is. Or an artist in general, isn't it? Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:19:04.065)

Yeah.

Yeah. Man, just a human really, right?

Hmm. Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:19:14.387)

being flexible in those in in all those dimensions.

Brian Funk (01:19:19.038)

Mhm. Yeah. Well it's another reason why I think doing this has been very healthy for me as a person. So to get back to some of the stuff you were saying earlier, there there's a I can't measure it, you know. I c it's not like I can step on the scale and see I've lost weight or gained weight, but it's undeniable that all these little things over time have

Definitely helped me in a lot of levels.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:19:51.462)

Yeah. Is it is an academy, isn't it? Academy of life. Some some sort of how to be a be a being.

Brian Funk (01:19:55.776)

Yeah. Yeah. So

Brian Funk (01:20:02.997)

Yeah, it's amazing. Well the record is awesome. beyond is definitely worth checking out. And there's a lot of ways you can enjoy it too. I mean, you can sit there and th this is like I think I think this is Brian Eno's definition too, right? Like ambient music where you can as easily deeply pay attention to it as you can almost just let it play. And it works even on my car ride this morning, like it was there were moments where I was really listening. I like, wow, what's going on here? And trying to figure out like

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:20:24.361)

Yeah,

Brian Funk (01:20:32.821)

the mechanics of it, like how you got those sounds. And then there's other times when I kind of almost forgot it was playing. You know, it was just coloring the experience. so I love music like that that can do both. There's some music that, you know, as much as I love it, like I can't put on at certain times. And this this kind of music, what you've done with Beyond, is it's very flexible.

To use your word as well for a lot of situations.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:21:06.435)

Thank you. Well I'm I'm so glad. Thank you for it's so great to have the conversation around those topics because I mean as you can see I'm very

passionated about those topics and and and and beyond was a reflection about all of this. I wanted to I wanted to create a a a a full arc, you know, a full transcendental arc. But also being able to dip your toes and just play one song that you like or just one song for certain moment of your life. but still if you want to have a full introspective or psychonautic experience you can

Brian Funk (01:21:18.283)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:21:45.862)

have with the album so I'm yeah thank you so much for this word flexibility 'cause kind of yeah yeah thank you yeah yeah

Brian Funk (01:21:57.58)

Well c well, cool. so if people look up Oversea Beyond, they'll find it pretty much everywhere, it seems like, right? I th your website I got here, h dash music dot CH, right? Where people can kind of find like the overview of stuff.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:22:10.97)

Yeah, that's that's my label. Yeah, yeah. All the music, all the different projects, but yeah, mostly focusing on focusing on oversea right now, which yeah, y as you know in in an artist career you have different iteration of your work and I think overseas is is the most aligned for me right now. So this is the path for me at the moment.

Brian Funk (01:22:37.173)

Hm. Yeah. It sounds like it's speaking to you. Yeah, I I really see it's the connection through everything. That's pretty cool how you found all these and some of these different aspects too, with the brain and and the science and the nature. Yeah, I mean, science and nature are are sometimes seen as opposing forces, but I think it's probably more just the

mechanism of nature in a lot of ways.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:23:08.586)

Exactly. And yeah, I don't see the the difference so much these days.

Brian Funk (01:23:15.659)

Hmm. Very cool. Well, thanks for doing this. This is awesome.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:23:20.101)

Of course, thanks for having me, Brian. So much so much fun.

Brian Funk (01:23:24.585)

Yeah, and thank you to our listeners for sticking with us. definitely check out Oversea Beyond. you won't regret it. A lot of cool music, great vibes, energy, all that stuff, which I'm sure you probably know just based on this conversation. So thanks a lot. Have a good day.

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Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.442)

Josh, welcome aboard to the music production podcast. Good to have you.

Lomotor (00:05.205)

Thank you. Thanks very much. It's an honor to be here, really.

Brian Funk (00:09.922)

I've been loving your work, Low Motor. You seem to have a lot of kind of philosophical things in common with me, things that I'm interested in, the way I like to make music, the organic thing, kind of some of your philosophies and love the videos you're doing, the jams, the outdoor adventures. It's really awesome and it's inspiring. I'm listening to your music and I'm excited to kind of...

steal some inspiration and steal some of your ideas and repurpose them. To me that's my favorite thing I get out of music a lot of the time or at least one of them is that feeling that makes me want to make music too. So I'm very excited to find your work and learn more about what you do.

Lomotor (00:42.337)

you

Lomotor (00:56.043)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:01.483)

Thanks, are very kind words. I appreciate it. Yeah, with music, and that's a lot right there, music for me is, it's not worth doing if you're just copying something, which isn't to say that like, you can't learn from, you know, I listen to music analytically all the time. Well, how did they get that bass or how did they get that sound just to make myself better? But I always try to put.

something that feels true to myself and my soul into the music. Sometimes that means sampling from my world. I live out in the woods, a lot of that's sampling nature sounds and tweaking them in Ableton. But sometimes it might just mean something kind of just a little touch of something that's just a preset that I did myself. I would never want to just, you know, just kind of cut and paste from Splice or something.

call it my song. I mean people do that and that's from some of that sounds great. just for me it's it's more fun it's more fulfilling to do it to put more of yourself into the music.

Brian Funk (02:12.664)

Hmm. Yeah, I feel the same way. And something that comes up a lot on this podcast and just in now how I think about making music is the story behind it. Kind of like, like for instance, I could pull up on AmpliTube, right? Guitar amp simulator. I could probably get like a really awesome sound that's like a kind of exactly what I need because it has everything and they sound really good.

But if I decide to say, crank my amp and put a microphone in the bathroom or maybe in the washing machine that's hidden behind the curtain here, you know, to me that that's an interesting story. Like, Ooh, let's see what that's going to do. And how am I going to use this in the song? And I think it just makes for a better story for the listener than, yeah, I just pulled up a really cool preset on Amplitube or, even I designed my own preset on Amplitube.

Lomotor (02:49.633)

You

Lomotor (03:06.731)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:10.264)

But that kind of effort in the world of doing something kind of outrageous and to see what you get is very exciting. And it kind of shows you that you can, even if you're making stuff in a computer, in the box, or even if it's very electronic, you can really get creative with just your environment and the things around you.

Lomotor (03:31.499)

Yeah, definitely. And even if it's subtle, I think that that kind of thing is cumulative in tracks, right? So somebody might, nobody's ever going to hear like, that guitar was recorded, mic'd from a laundry, from a washing machine, right? But, it might sound, you know, maybe to a, right. But it sounds, yeah.

Brian Funk (03:44.376)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:47.8)

except as an insult maybe.

Sounds like you recorded it in a washing machine.

Lomotor (03:56.033)

Yeah, but it's not going to sound like Van Halen or something. If you want that perfect Van Halen tone, then you can dial up Amplitube and there you go. It gives your music something unique.

Yeah, more interesting, right? Even if it's just subtle like that. People can tell, your ear will know there's a little something that's different about this. That's not just a preset.

Brian Funk (04:20.875)

Yeah, I think it was a good word, cumulative, you just used that. It adds up these little decisions that you do along the way. They, they might not be very noticeable and sometimes it's not even a fader or a track that can account for it, but it comes through. It's an energy, something about when we record music, it picks up on your mood. picks up on if you're having fun or not. I don't know.

Again, you can't quantify these things, but it comes across in the listening.

Lomotor (04:55.839)

Yeah, I agree.

Brian Funk (04:59.147)

I think maybe I'll just mention this now to kind of put ourselves on the hook, but we said right before we started recording, we'd put together some kind of sample pack or drum rack with some of your sounds and they all try to work some Ableton stuff, tricks in there to kind of do some sort of collaboration, but that'll be something people can download for free and use in their own music and kind of spread it out and maybe inspire some people.

Lomotor (05:23.563)

Yeah.

Go to to town use some use some some trees and logs and leaves and make something something fun

Brian Funk (05:32.555)

Yeah. Link in the show notes.

so yeah, like, can you maybe tell me a little bit about, so you seem to be in like a rural area in, I think you said in Massachusetts, right? how that you, you definitely incorporate that all people need to do is go on your YouTube or your Instagram and just watch what you're doing. You're outside half the time, your dogs are running around and you've got your push standalone out there. it's a really cool way that you're pulling nature in and, man, maybe just tell us a little bit about the.

Lomotor (05:48.895)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (06:09.185)

the world you exist in.

Lomotor (06:11.713)

Yeah, so I live in Boxford, Massachusetts, which is north of Boston. And it's a rural town. I mean, seems from some of the videos I make, I should say they're a little edited. It looks like I'm sometimes in the wilderness in northern Maine or something. And there are some wonderful isolated places near me that I love, but I'm not living in a cabin without any power.

Brian Funk (06:29.132)

You

Lomotor (06:39.777)

in the woods, but it is very wooded. I moved here in 2011, built this basement studio, was kind of the first thing that I did. And then we have a barn and small farms and some mini horse, a horse, goats. And so that's, I grew up in the woods too, in the Hudson Valley area. It's just always been part of my existence.

I think it's helped me find an identity as a musician. For a long time I was kind of copying other people and I play guitar for a long time in a band, kind of like what you've talked about, Brian, and that's always fun. This is kind of a whole side of my life and personality that I've been more incorporating into the music.

Lomotor (07:34.017)

Yeah, to make it, it's a well that I can pull a lot from. And part of that is being in nature. Even if I, so I'll bring my push. Push standalone was kind of a game changer for me too. I've been waiting forever. Even when push two came out, like, it's not, you still have to plug it in somewhere. But finally with the battery, I was very excited when that came out. I would go out and record samples and then come back and.

Brian Funk (07:53.164)

Hmm.

Lomotor (08:03.809)

and the songs and stuff but now it's you can kind of do that all wall out in nature with the dogs running around and that's just that's just wonderful. Yeah and like you like you said before it's it means I can take very specific parts of my world and turn it into some of my music which I hope makes it sound different or unique or a little bit unlike something else you might hear.

Brian Funk (08:31.861)

Hmm. I think it does. And I say this a lot in my Berkeley class. I teach Berkeley's Ableton Live sampling class online. And I love that class because I think it's a really great way to build your own identity musically or sound because, you know, one of the exercises we do is just recording your day. Just go through your day, find noises that come up and then put some kind of composition to that. And

everybody's day is a little bit different. And even a lot of them only get through breakfast because they're in the kitchen and they're like, I've got, you know, two gigs of sounds now. Like I got to just make something. But even the breakfast routine of everyone is unique and the types of coffee machines they use or pans or pots and bowls and the room they're in, the acoustics, everything comes out a little bit different with their own mark on it and just

Even if it was the same person in the same room, how close do they put the microphone? It's going to make a little difference. So I love that route in trying to make music unique because you're forced to in that way. You're going to get something unique no matter what. Whereas if you go and you pull up presets and I do this too all the time, everyone does. You're getting the same preset as somebody else and, or same sample or something.

Lomotor (09:44.342)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (09:59.189)

Not to say you can't do unique stuff with that. And I think it's probably best to, you know, do some sort of combination of everything. But that's a real sure-fire way to be like, nobody has the sound of this, this tree and this rock making this beat.

Lomotor (10:14.145)

That's right, is the only kick drum that's going to sound like this. This tree. Yeah.

Brian Funk (10:19.338)

Yeah, right. Yeah, it's a really, it's a cool approach.

Lomotor (10:26.143)

which I don't know if you want to talk about social media, because I kind of have a love-hate relationship with social media, but that was part of this driver with me. I should say, feel like it's, in one part, tearing the fabric of society apart. On the other hand, I want my music to be heard by people, right? And for a long time.

Brian Funk (10:44.353)

Yes.

Brian Funk (10:48.577)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (10:50.465)

It just wasn't, you know, and so, I don't know, a couple years ago, I thought, well, I want to at least get it out in front of more ears. But I also want to be myself. Where's that intersection? So make a conscientious plan to post more of what I'm doing, but make it be true to myself still. So this path of filming more in nature and making music in nature was my compromise.

Brian Funk (11:05.132)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (11:20.267)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (11:20.417)

I kind of hate sometimes that I'll be out in a beautiful place and I think to myself like this would this will be a good content if I you know when I can't just you know back on this Yeah, so I'll try to separate the two you know I'll have a plan a day like I'm gonna go film and it's only if it's a filming day and then I'll have another day of Just going out without anything and just to enjoy it know feed the soul that way

Brian Funk (11:29.067)

Yeah.

Just take it in, soak it in.

Brian Funk (11:48.842)

Hmm.

Lomotor (11:50.921)

I do have a few of my special places in the woods that are sacred. I'm not going to film there. Those are just my secret spots.

Brian Funk (11:56.477)

really? That's cool. Yeah. So, you know, that's a smart thing because then when you go there, that part of you just sort of turns off and you don't have to even wonder if you should be doing it or not. Just, no, we don't do that here. This is different.

Lomotor (12:12.724)

Exactly, yeah.

Brian Funk (12:15.52)

Well, yeah, it's a weird time, right? Because we have this amazing power to reach everybody. Pretty much everybody. You know, going back to like the first albums I ever released with bands, like you had to physically find a person and put it in their hands and hope they put that inside their music player and turned it on and all of that stuff. Luckily, at least I guess back then, not as many people were handing out.

Lomotor (12:37.345)

You

Brian Funk (12:44.214)

tapes and CDs, so it was a little bit special, but we...

Lomotor (12:49.695)

I remember going to Newbury Comics with a CD, you know, with like my box of CDs and just handed them to the guy, the guy who worked there, like, hey, can you stock, you know, my CDs, just literally in person, you know, here. And I was so excited when they were in the racks there. I'd go back now and then and check. it's still there.

Brian Funk (12:53.312)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (13:07.148)

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I guess we didn't sell any. Yeah, we did that with like the local record stores when we had them. And we'd go in and they often had like a local band section or something and they put them in and we'd like tell our fans you could buy it at, know, Looney Tunes, which is a local place around here. yeah, real deal. like people go in, I saw it there. And then we'd go back and we'd see it there.

Lomotor (13:16.011)

Yeah, great.

Lomotor (13:25.395)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, we're real now.

Lomotor (13:35.489)

Nobody bought it, but was there.

Brian Funk (13:37.121)

I think like one or two times they said, we sold your CDs. And we're like, what? You sold all four of them? It's amazing. We need more. Yeah. But I have a weird nostalgia for those times, but I mean, there is really something incredible about what we can do now with putting stuff out. So it is smart to take advantage of it. I guess you got to watch out for the numbers a little.

Lomotor (13:42.005)

Yeah, it's a big day.

Brian Funk (14:07.562)

You know, if you put something out and then all of sudden that thing gets a lot of hits that can kind of color your next project. I guess I'm going to make something more like that again. And I, I've found that every once in a while, something like that happens. I'm like, that's what they want. But inevitably it's like, well, I don't really want to keep doing only that. But I think as you, the more you do it, you start building this larger body of work and.

Lomotor (14:17.355)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (14:31.115)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (14:37.96)

I've found with a lot of artists I really like and even content creators, which are artists obviously too, the ones I get into the most are more, they become the person behind it and less so even the work. It's like just interesting what they do. I don't need you to do that one thing that pulled me in at first. I just kind of like what you do.

Lomotor (15:01.601)

I think that's why bands, people come along for the ride for bands like Radiohead or bands that have really changed or had an arc in their career, right? People are there for it.

Brian Funk (15:08.524)

Hmm.

Sure.

Yeah, we're just going to check them out. They're going to do something interesting. And, you know, we probably all have our favorite Radiohead moments and phases, but when they come out with new stuff, it's always like, huh, now what? And it's kind of fun that you get challenged a little too. Like, hey, we didn't do OK Computer again. Or somewhere else. Check it out.

Lomotor (15:18.271)

Red.

Lomotor (15:28.967)

yeah. Anyway. Right.

Right.

And it took people, a lot of people like years, right, to sort of come around to KID-A and that whole electronic, right. They lost a lot of people and then kind of regained them over time. So.

Brian Funk (15:45.996)

Hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (15:52.012)

Yeah, that was a huge album for me, Kid A. I loved OK Computer too. Kid A actually, I think, got me more into Radiohead than I ever was. I always liked them, but when I heard that record, I was like, oh man, this is crazy. And then went back and got deeper and deeper. I think maybe OK Computer is my favorite one now. But Kid A was, when I came out,

Lomotor (16:15.925)

there.

Brian Funk (16:19.487)

like what am I even listening to like I've never heard anything like this before really like

Lomotor (16:24.481)

I was one of those people who was like, this isn't okay computer, what is this? I hear like clarinets. And I didn't listen, I was like, I'm not gonna listen to that. then, yeah, I was one of those people who years later was like, oh, this is great. Now, Kitty is my favorite. Took a while to expand my musical mind.

Brian Funk (16:28.319)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:38.537)

Hmm. Hmm.

Brian Funk (16:44.361)

Yeah, that's nice when that happens. That's good art. It should be a little bit of a challenge sometimes. A little push. Yeah, see what you can do with this. Can you take this? It's like Marty McFly in Back to the Future. You guys aren't ready for this, but your kids are gonna love it.

Lomotor (16:49.281)

A little push. Yeah.

Lomotor (16:55.851)

Do you?

When you run into that where you think to yourself like, maybe I just need to make more of this thing that people seem to like, do you try, do you do that? And if so, do you kind of set parameters to still make whatever you're making, you know, feel real and honoring yourself?

Brian Funk (17:27.145)

Yeah, I think over time, a lot of the most successful stuff is more in line with what I want to be doing anyway. Luckily, it kind of works out that way. Yeah, there's definitely been a few things when I look back, I can see like, yeah, I see what I was trying to do there. was trying to like catch people or

Lomotor (17:51.521)

You

Brian Funk (17:54.313)

maybe even a little click-baity at points.

But I've never enjoyed that enough to want to keep doing it. know, I really, once I start looking at the numbers and stats, just, I don't even know how to make any sense of it. And there's just not enough time to care about it too, for me. And I guess, you know, having a day job gives me that luxury where I don't have to really, I don't have to worry about it too much.

Lomotor (18:04.395)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (18:30.281)

You know, if I'm numbers go down on YouTube and I don't make any money off YouTube anyway, but you know, the, the ad sensor, the whatever thing they send you every once in a while when you cross the threshold, it's not really a noticeable dent in what I, so, I try not to really worry about it too much. Once in a while I'll, I'll look and see what was working, but

Lomotor (18:36.417)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (19:00.211)

I don't know. I don't know how to do it, really.

Lomotor (19:00.597)

Yeah.

Lomotor (19:06.529)

Yeah, me neither. I think you kind of have to fully commit to being that kind of artist if you're going to do that. I think you just have to be like, I'm going to be an internet artist and just follow all these trends and learn all that part of it, the metrics. I think it's rare when someone's...

Brian Funk (19:07.787)

I'm not interested enough, I guess.

Brian Funk (19:24.81)

Hmm.

Lomotor (19:33.409)

kind of just doing it with a day job, sort of half. Maybe I'm wrong, you know, I think you can, if you wanted that internet popularity, you kind of, have to fully, I think, do it and pay attention to it. And I don't know if you know what I'm saying.

Brian Funk (19:50.934)

people become, they get expectations too. I mean, this happens to me. I'll see something from somebody on YouTube or something. I love that. And then I look at the other stuff and it's not really that. Or the next thing that comes out isn't what I thought it was going to be. it's like, Hey, you were the one that was talking about like philosophy of creativity and now you're just reviewing a piece of gear. But then there's other people that I know that

Lomotor (20:04.289)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (20:20.159)

they do a great job reviewing the gear and then they come out with something else. I'm like, but I just wanted to know how it worked. So I guess it's, know I'm, this is a long game thing for me. It's already been a pretty long game. I don't see any signs of stopping or desires to want to stop making art and music and sharing it. So, yeah, just, just doing it.

Lomotor (20:25.609)

I know, yeah.

Brian Funk (20:48.703)

just going for it and having fun. If I'm having a good time, think people, someone out there might enjoy it too.

Lomotor (20:48.961)

Yeah.

Lomotor (20:56.577)

I think that comes through. Same for the podcast. I listen to your podcast, you always sound truly interested in it. It's clear you like doing this. I think that comes through. Same in music.

Brian Funk (21:08.683)

Yeah, I really do. It's very interesting. I here I'm talking to you right now, right? Like picking your brain about what you're doing, about music I'm inspired by. So, I mean, that's really exciting. And it's a great excuse to just to talk to people, right? Just to connect. mean, it'd be kind of weird if I listened to your hours like, Hey, Josh, can I call you and just talk? You know, right? For no reason that you'd be like, what? Who's this guy?

Lomotor (21:26.209)

Yeah.

Lomotor (21:34.581)

Hehehehehe

Brian Funk (21:38.917)

but you know, in this context, it sort of gives it a reason to exist. so yeah, I mean, it's just fun. and without having to really worry about funding it and sponsors once in a while, if some sponsor comes along that I like, and I'm into their stuff, I'm happy to do that. And if I can,

Lomotor (22:02.197)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:04.68)

I try to even now make it a little more of a fun project than just like, ladies and gentlemen, let me tell you about a new product. And so that becomes like, now I'm still being creative with it. But yeah, don't, there's other things that come through that I see it. I'm like, I don't want to talk about that. I don't want to put that out. And yeah, it might be the hot topic of the day, but yeah, that's not really what I'm interested in. It's nice to have that, that freedom.

Lomotor (22:15.563)

Yeah.

Lomotor (22:28.161)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:34.068)

Definitely.

Lomotor (22:38.431)

you have dreams of being a professional musician? Did you think you were going to be a rock star at some point?

Brian Funk (22:45.322)

Yeah, I thought I wanted that. That was like, you know, probably from the minute you pick up a guitar, right? You're like, yes. But I mean, I love playing in bands and still do and like playing shows a lot and do occasionally. I think I really learned this though, in setting up some tours, like little two week deals down the East coast where we'd play probably like

Lomotor (22:52.206)

Hahahaha!

Brian Funk (23:12.314)

seven to ten of those nights and then, you know, drive to the next show in a car. And we had a great time. It was the guys hanging out and playing music. But by the end of that, I was like, okay, you know, it's time to go home. I want to go home. I want to eat a regular meal and not just like junk that we're picking up on the road. And I want to sleep in a bed. And I had a cat. I want to see my cat, you know, I to have a relationship. All these things like

Lomotor (23:17.291)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (23:27.617)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (23:41.119)

I guess you don't realize that when you picture yourself on the big stage, you know, hitting your cord, you know, in front of a screaming audience, you see that, but you don't see like all the other stuff that goes into it. So much more than that. yeah, I'm a home body kind of guy too. I like, I like being home and I just, I liked it, but not enough to want to do it 50 weeks of the year.

Lomotor (23:56.757)

Right.

Lomotor (24:09.887)

Yeah. It seems... Yeah. It seems like a hard life.

Brian Funk (24:10.922)

That became clear to me.

Brian Funk (24:16.912)

I think it is. I mean, people love it. You have to love it, I think, to do it, really. Sometimes you just got to do things to realize whether you like it or not. Even playing guitar for me was that. I didn't know I was going to like playing guitar. I didn't know I was going to like doing this even. I didn't know I was going to like being an English teacher. But sometimes you just got to be in it to really understand what

Lomotor (24:23.83)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (24:46.65)

else is around it and then things clear up a little bit. So yeah, I'm pretty happy with how things worked out musically and I'm glad I don't have to be going on the road because I just enjoy it to a point. But the point to which I stop enjoying it is so much less than what's required.

Lomotor (24:51.413)

Yeah.

Lomotor (25:12.309)

Yeah. You've talked about it, I think, in the past, but I wonder too, like if your life was totally different, you know, if I had no other obligations, not a day job or anything, would you really, would I be doing music as much as in my head I would be, you know, with all that extra time really mean and be making more songs and I, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to know, right? You don't know that's an alternate life.

But my guess is a lot of the time you'd waste some of that time. You'd say, I have all this time I can watch more TV or whatever.

Brian Funk (25:46.153)

Yeah. Well, I get summer vacations, so I do get a little taste of that. And I waste a lot of that time. really do. I try to be productive and I try to do something, but I'm not as productive as I think I'm going to be.

Lomotor (25:52.257)

Yeah, you get a real test every summer.

Lomotor (26:03.201)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (26:03.274)

I don't make four albums every summer. Like in my head I have the plan. You know, come June I'm like, yeah, I'm ready. I'm going to by the end of June I'll have the first two out. It's like, no, you'll have just sat out in the sun because it's nice out. And then you went to the beach and you know, those kinds of things. The pressure of the time constraint when I'm at work makes me more productive.

Lomotor (26:06.229)

Right.

Lomotor (26:13.429)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lomotor (26:18.059)

Bread.

Lomotor (26:22.453)

Yeah, I think I work better.

Lomotor (26:27.489)

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. I think I work better if I know I have a, like, say a half-day window, right? If I know I can... I always wake up super early myself just because I like that quiet, dark, alone time. But I know I have that, let's say, on a weekend morning. I have that from 5 a.m. until maybe 11 or noon, depending on other obligations.

he can schedule out that time. One of the things I always try to do is plan the night before what I'm going to do so that I can...

not sit there and just start opening old song ideas and spend an hour and a half just scrolling through live projects that you're never going to finish and doing maybe an instrument or a little tweak for each one and then move on to the next. You can go down that vortex and get lost forever. So I'll plan the night before. Tomorrow I'm going to do...

Brian Funk (27:12.434)

Right.

Lomotor (27:21.781)

this step and find the baseline for that track and finish it or something like that so that then when I wake up I quickly drink my espressos and start doing that right away and you have a structure. And then like you said with the limitations then like if got this time I've got to do it.

Brian Funk (27:41.514)

Hmm.

Lomotor (27:41.589)

do it. Don't look at your phone. Don't avoid distractions for that window. And if you know you only have that little window, it's easier to avoid distractions, right? If you have days, you kind of just get lost in that.

Brian Funk (27:54.314)

Yeah, I could do it later. Well, you know what? Let's go for a walk. Let's have a snack. Let's watch this video. Let's learn something. Learning is my killer, my secret way that procrastination gets me all the time. Like, I'll learn how to use this device, or I'll watch things I already know and just how are they using it? How are they using a saturator in life?

Lomotor (28:00.299)

Yeah.

Lomotor (28:05.749)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (28:21.771)

I have a rule for that for myself where I will only learn from YouTube if I have my music computer open next to it. So I'll be watching the video but actually doing it myself instead of being passive about it. I mean sometimes I'll just watch that stuff while I'm doing the dishes or whatever but I won't.

Brian Funk (28:35.059)

Yeah, smart.

Brian Funk (28:41.841)

Yeah.

Lomotor (28:43.981)

sit and just kind of watch stuff if I should, could be doing, actually doing music. Like at that point, open the, turn on the music computer and you know, do it. Follow along. In that way at least maybe you'll have something at the end of it that you can use to make a song.

Brian Funk (29:00.541)

Yeah, I think that's our big challenge these days is all these distractions, all these other things we can do, infinite choices. I give people, young people especially, that start into music or any kind of hobby these days, I give them a lot of credit because part of how I got into playing guitar was boredom.

I just, I now have anything else to do. I already played the video game that I have to death and you know, it wasn't like I had access to every other video game that ever existed like we do now too. But I always kind of wonder to myself like, would I have stuck through those hard times? Would I have dealt with my fingers hurting and...

Lomotor (29:23.627)

Yeah.

Lomotor (29:40.278)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:45.106)

not figuring out the chord and not being able to turn to YouTube to get the answer on how that Nirvana song went. All these things that you can do now. I don't know if I would have survived. I might've just went on Instagram or started watching something else, playing a game.

Lomotor (30:05.185)

It's so easy to do something else now. Yeah. I wonder too. I wonder if will be less creative or something because of that. It's just so easy to be entertained now by everything. I know, I feel like we sound like grumpy old men talking about this, it does seem like it's very different, right? Like you said, when you were kids, like you're very limited and you know, we had four VHS movies. So.

Brian Funk (30:26.408)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (30:32.327)

Yeah.

Lomotor (30:32.961)

I watched Hooper with Burt Reynolds a hundred times because that was one of them.

Brian Funk (30:35.977)

Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I see it in my students. Like I don't see as much creativity as I used to. And when I do, I'm like thrilled. Like, good. Yes. you paint. Awesome. You draw. Yay. Thank. Good. You need those things in your life. But yeah, I don't know. I look.

Lomotor (30:49.973)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (30:58.058)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (31:01.671)

I'm trying to look at it like with empathy to realize like I'm the same as them. I'm, we're humans. We're all the same exact DNA. We're not more or less evolved. You throw us a baby born today into, you know, the year 12 and no one would know the difference. Right. So I, I would, I try to remember, I'd probably be exactly like them. And yeah, I don't know if I would have overcome that. Not sure.

Lomotor (31:19.169)

Mm-mm. Right.

Lomotor (31:31.265)

probably would have played less guitar.

Brian Funk (31:34.739)

Yeah, it might have been like, this is hard. But I'm to play this game I found on my phone.

Lomotor (31:37.749)

Yeah.

Lomotor (31:44.041)

Right. Yeah, I think I would have been the same way. I think it's very rare to be that driven, especially as a child. You can block out distractions. And nowadays it's just so easy. It's all on your phone, right? It's all right there.

Brian Funk (31:48.051)

there.

Brian Funk (31:57.638)

I hope AI will fix that for us in the way AI is polluting social media and YouTube and there's just so much content. It'd be like, I don't even want to look at this. I mean, I get that a lot. I can't even look at Facebook anymore because everything is...

Lomotor (32:02.113)

Yeah.

Lomotor (32:08.393)

I mean it'll make it so bad.

Uh-huh.

Lomotor (32:16.651)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (32:18.057)

every video is AI and half of them are people that think they're real and it's just like there's no point in being here anymore. So that's good. I like that. But maybe like, to get back to like your music, I think this might be a drive to go out and do something real.

Lomotor (32:26.838)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (32:45.831)

record like the sounds around you walk in the snow and turn that into music and bang on this log and get your hands on things. I hope that happens a lot. I think it's part of, I mean, I've always been drawn to this, but I think I'm more so interested in it now because the, it's so much more of a statement now, I guess, right? Some of my early recordings where I was

Lomotor (32:59.988)

Absolutely.

Lomotor (33:11.083)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:14.845)

banging on garbage cans to make percussion was because I didn't have percussion. So I didn't have a set of congas and all this stuff to play around with. Now when you do it, you're doing it knowing like, I could just get that loop off Splice. I have a preset inside of Logic or Ableton, but I'm deciding to go against that and go through the effort of this. it's...

It feels more deliberate and more of an artistic stance. And I like that.

Lomotor (33:45.323)

Yeah.

Lomotor (33:49.665)

Yeah, I think you're right. It's every, I don't know what you call, AI and social media, every big social entity like that has a backlash or it's opposite. And there's some people I think who are gonna always, I don't know, people might love all those AI videos. But right, I think there's...

Art is sometimes reacting to what's happening in society as a response, as a push back against stuff like that. That's certainly the way I think about it.

say like to go out into the woods and do something different try to make it real. I've messed around with AI videos and there's still up on my Instagram a couple of them. I kind of try to make it obvious that it was AI but I still would get comments like, does it just slop? So I've stopped I just thought well yeah yeah and maybe I'm stealing from you know all the artists that that AI company swept you know through.

Brian Funk (34:47.497)

Yeah.

Lomotor (35:00.809)

every artist in the history of humanity. Maybe I'm stealing from them a little bit by making this video of people dancing in a field. But I also realized like people, some of those videos didn't, they got negativity and didn't seem that interesting to people. You know, sort of less likes. I think people are instinctually interested more in something that's real and human.

Brian Funk (35:04.265)

Alright.

Lomotor (35:26.721)

And maybe AI will get to the point where we can't tell the difference, which is kind of a terrifying thought. Yeah. But I still think it'll be a while before, like, it will be so good at replicating humans that people won't be able to tell. You know, I think we'll always have that, whatever, imperfections that make us human.

Brian Funk (35:34.141)

Yeah, seems to be.

Brian Funk (35:47.689)

Hmm.

Lomotor (35:55.851)

Partly why in my music I'll try to not be too precious about it. Especially with electronic music, it's really easy to put everything on the grid. And a lot of times I'll put a kick on the grid and keep it there. Have something that's very regular, but then maybe play some percussion, some leads or something myself.

which not going to be... I'm not a good percussionist. I'm not a good leaf player. So it's not going to be on the beat or anything.

Brian Funk (36:25.328)

You're not a good leaf player. I bet you're one of the more capable ones out there actually. You're probably more experienced than most.

Lomotor (36:37.849)

But then people will hear that, even if it's subconscious, they'll... Something will tick. Yeah, it's interesting. Maybe more interesting than something that's totally AI produced.

Brian Funk (36:51.26)

Hmm. Yeah, I have, through this app I use for the podcast, Riverside, they do some kind of AI where it'll, it'll make clips for you. It'll kind of figure out what the good trending clips will be, which is funny sometimes how it figures that out, but it has an AI B roll thing that you can have it automatically insert it. So we might be talking about like recording and, you know, how it's like,

Lomotor (37:07.039)

Yeah. Huh.

Brian Funk (37:21.244)

this magical thing and then like a magician will pop up. It doesn't always understand the context or the metaphors you're making. And I was having fun with that, like how it would sort of mischaracterize it.

Lomotor (37:24.417)

That's funny. Yeah.

Lomotor (37:34.304)

Red.

Lomotor (37:37.995)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (37:39.559)

Like, yeah, this song is like a stew of all different things. It's just like a chef. Like, yes, and the chef has like seven fingers and, you know, the dog with like, that's floating in the sky kind of in the background. So these like artifacts would come up and I found those amusing. But I did see comments like, this is obviously AI. Look at the way that spatula is and why is he even there? But.

Lomotor (37:44.289)

You

Lomotor (37:47.905)

Thank

Lomotor (38:02.305)

you

Lomotor (38:06.785)

That's one thing about the internet, Like it doesn't matter how obvious you're trying to make it seem that you are aware that you're making fun of this thing, people are gonna take it seriously, right? Like there's always gonna be somebody who's pointing out the thing that's very obvious.

Brian Funk (38:15.997)

Yeah.

It's not as bad as it used to be either. It just sort of disappoints me. It's way better at it now. When they first came out with it, it was funny. The bass guitar would just suddenly disappear into a microphone. It didn't make any sense. But now it's so much better at it that you almost can't even...

Lomotor (38:26.325)

the air.

Lomotor (38:32.499)

You

Brian Funk (38:38.566)

You know, it's like I'm longing for the lower quality, almost like I'm longing for like a cassette tape for track sound. I kind of wish, but it didn't last long enough. It wasn't garbagey. Yeah. Right. miss those. Yeah. I'm going to ask you a kind of specific question about when you go out and you're doing your, your sampling and then you're working with push.

Lomotor (38:45.055)

Yeah.

Lomotor (38:49.269)

Yeah, that was only like six months. It's already moving on.

Brian Funk (39:07.944)

How do you record those samples? Are you using the inputs on push, the mic inputs, the line inputs? Are you using a different sampler? What's that look like?

Lomotor (39:14.635)

Mm-hmm.

It's just a microphone or my phone.

put that in later but yeah just a microphone SM57 that I plug directly in.

Brian Funk (39:31.324)

Plugged right in. Nice.

Lomotor (39:33.565)

simple try to keep everything portable so that it can fit in a backpack.

Brian Funk (39:37.767)

Yeah.

Right. had, um, I'd found, I had an SM57 I was plugging in and I was getting some weird interference with push when I was doing it. So, um, I kind of abandoned that, but I just got this new, um, it's like an audio interface actually, but it connects right to the mic and it's only about two or three inches long.

Lomotor (39:49.366)

Yeah.

Huh.

Brian Funk (40:06.6)

and then you plug the cord into it. It's actually a USB-C cord, so it goes in like that. And that works great because it picks it up like an interface and then no interference. And it's so portable, too. It's only adding like, just makes the SM57 a little bit longer.

Lomotor (40:11.393)

Yeah.

Lomotor (40:18.145)

Hmm.

Lomotor (40:24.261)

Yeah. Do you get wind issues or anything? Or can I clean it up too? Or do have a...

Brian Funk (40:31.342)

No, it's the same wind is always, cause that's just hitting the mic. just picks it up cleaner or something. But yeah, it's kind of got to worry about, I haven't taken it outside yet though. I've, but it's, it's the same reaction. It feels like a mic normally does.

Lomotor (40:33.92)

Yeah.

Lomotor (40:45.473)

Lomotor (40:49.771)

Yeah. Sometimes I'll just, I most of my samples I'll just record on my phone and I'll put that to the side and just hit record on voice notes to get the ambience, right? And then sometimes it'll just do, start playing instruments and push.

Brian Funk (41:01.895)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (41:09.909)

and then put that ambience in. I'm hearing it even though I have headphones on. I'm still experiencing being in nature, but I'm also recording that separately. I can put that in later on. It's rare though where I'll... Usually at that point I'll try to chop up... I'll try to always do something to a nature sample. It's rare where it's just like a...

Brian Funk (41:24.454)

that's cool.

Lomotor (41:36.161)

just the birds in background kind of going without editing or something. So a lot of times I'll chop it up into a rhythm or I'll, what is it? Is it the shaper tool, the audio shaper? If you, sometimes you run a drum beat on a track and silence it, mute that track, but have the beats trigger the sounds that are in the sample, right? So it might be some birds and stuff, but it's only, it's hitting on the, on the.

Brian Funk (42:00.871)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (42:05.973)

drum beats only.

Brian Funk (42:07.628)

Do you do that with like a gate or an envelope follower or something like that? Yeah.

Lomotor (42:11.009)

Yeah, so an envelope follower, right. So usually the auto filter, sometimes the gate, but like the auto filter is just a little smoother.

Brian Funk (42:19.473)

Mm-hmm.

That's cool.

Lomotor (42:23.263)

Yeah, it's fun. And other times it'll just be a couple of auto filters, right, or a few gates. now with the newer, it was a 12, flat 12. I love the LFO settings. There's so many options, right, where you can do, I think it's the glide.

too long if you just use the wander, right? So, right, so if you get a couple of those in a sequence triggering multiple auto filters or multiple gates or mix and match or sometimes like a reverb, like if it's triggering a reverb real wet but just for moment, you get all sorts of interesting sounds.

Brian Funk (42:41.895)

Yeah, wander and glide. Yeah.

Brian Funk (42:51.751)

Hmm.

Lomotor (43:04.341)

And then almost always I'll take that and at least try to see what it sounds like reversed. I feel like I reverse everything just to see how does this work. Sometimes it's great.

Brian Funk (43:04.711)

Right.

Brian Funk (43:14.309)

Yeah, the verse is so cool. And I appreciate it because the first time I ever did reverse sounds was on four tracks and flipping the tape over and you know, all which didn't seem like much of a hassle at the time because wow, we could do that. But now that you can just, you know, highlight it and hit R, then it just reverses it. I love it. So are you transferring the

Lomotor (43:34.017)

You are, Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (43:42.541)

the stuff from your voice memos to push through Ableton Live or do you plug it maybe into like the USB or the inputs or something, un-push to sample it?

Lomotor (43:53.153)

So from my, usually I'll do that in back here in my studio. So, so I'll, if I, if I come up with a track I like in the push, save it, get back to the studio, put it in my computer.

Brian Funk (43:59.24)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (44:10.857)

and then I will sample, then I'll take my phone and record that just through my interface back into, so I have that recording in live. I don't know if there's a faster way to import from live, from voice notes, that's just the way I do it.

Brian Funk (44:28.289)

I'm trying to think if I haven't tried it, sampling directly from the phone into push, but I guess if you had a cable that went into the inputs or maybe even the USB, see, or regular USB, you might be able to do that. I gotta give that a shot.

Lomotor (44:31.521)

Yeah.

Lomotor (44:40.735)

Yes.

Lomotor (44:49.473)

could, right? You just need a converter, right?

Brian Funk (44:57.765)

be out there doing it. But I think it's cool that you use your phone a lot. I've been telling people more and more like, yo, your phone is a great field recorder. I used to say it in my Berkeley class as like, hey, the phone has a lousy mic. It's not great, but at least you have a mic and you can record it. And sometimes that lousy sound has character and it works. But now like,

Lomotor (45:06.966)

Yeah.

Lomotor (45:14.987)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:19.659)

Man, the iPhone mics these days are so good. I just watched a video of a guy, I think he's Sugar Pill Productions on YouTube. I double checked that. He's like a songwriting, indie guitar rock guy I like a lot. But he had a Neumann and an iPhone next to each other and he was side by side and switching between them while he was singing the song. And like, I didn't...

Lomotor (45:45.057)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (45:47.695)

I couldn't tell. I didn't know what was what. I admit, in the context of the song, they both sounded good.

Lomotor (45:48.949)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lomotor (45:57.25)

People can be so precious about that kind of stuff. At least for me, I mess with the sound so much anyway. The source doesn't have to be pristine. Most of the time I'm cutting out all the low end anyway just to get rid of wind sounds. I do think...

Brian Funk (46:05.179)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (46:10.375)

Right.

Brian Funk (46:14.311)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (46:17.217)

Yeah, so I agree. think the iPhone is all you need, really. The only time I've noticed where it's not as good as like a Zoom, I have a Zoom hand-held recorder that I'll use sometimes for bassier sounds. So if it's low end that you're trying to capture, I still use something a little bit better than the iPhone. But otherwise, leads, sticks, yeah, I use the iPhone.

Brian Funk (46:29.232)

Okay.

Brian Funk (46:40.879)

Like, so like if you're doing a kick drum from a log or an old tree, you get the zoom. Yeah. I, I, I don't remember if you told that to me or, or I saw it in a video talking about like,

Lomotor (46:44.767)

Right, right, that's a little more high fidelity with the zoom.

Brian Funk (46:56.295)

Stumps and logs are good kick drums, but we had a tree fall down in my backyard during the blizzard the blizzard of 26, you know, and It's still sitting there and I saw that I was like, oh my god, what's wrong with me? I've got the whole like orchestra laying in my ground I was just mostly bummed because I had a bat box on that tree and It got totally smashed. I never got bats in it, but I was

Lomotor (47:05.025)

You

Lomotor (47:10.465)

Yeah.

Lomotor (47:20.34)

of

Brian Funk (47:24.953)

really excited to get bats to eat the mosquitoes and stuff.

Lomotor (47:28.745)

What? Yeah, I wonder how many bats really go into bat box. I've never seen a bat in a bat box. We had one up for years. Yeah. No.

Brian Funk (47:34.183)

Yeah, it never went in. They have them in some of the parks in the wooded areas around here and I think they do. Yeah, I don't know. I just thought it'd be great. We have some bats you'll see at dusk in the summer. So was like, hey guys, why don't you just live here? But I'll have to turn that into some kind of orchestra. So start recording it.

Lomotor (47:40.065)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lomotor (47:49.046)

Yeah.

Lomotor (47:52.481)

Yeah, that's the same with me.

Lomotor (47:59.628)

Yeah, It's the... You'd be interested to... You know, they're very different tones depending on the age of the old log too. Sometimes if they're wet too, like if it's been raining, you'd find like a good, crumbly, old, old big tree that's like kind of falling apart but still got some body and hit that with another big log. It's a good, good kick drum sound.

Brian Funk (48:08.634)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (48:25.968)

That's awesome.

Lomotor (48:26.401)

And then the newer ones are a little more resonant, right? Like you're gonna get a higher kind of sound that's not as kick drum-y. Right, yeah. I'll pitch down. I mean, a lot of times I'll do that and then pitch down the samples if you wanna get something lower. Add some saturation, pitch it down.

Brian Funk (48:31.908)

Yeah, makes sense. Unless you're Tom's or something. Yeah.

Brian Funk (48:47.748)

Yeah, I like that. That's cool. Yeah, I'm going to make use of that tree. It doesn't feel like a loss. It's kind of the beautiful thing too when you record something or sample something. Like you are sort of taking a sonic photograph of it and making it last. I mean, I always get a big kick out of some of the packs I make and they go around and make it into people's music.

Lomotor (48:53.345)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (49:17.156)

The one that really made me understand it was the piano I have in my house. It's, it's over a hundred years old. got it from the salvation army. I don't know, probably 20 years ago now. And, when I first got it, was like, man, this piano, look at it. It's had a life. Somebody played this thing. You just tell like the way the keys are worn and it's like, what?

Lomotor (49:30.113)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (49:42.011)

does this piano know? What did it do? And now after sampling it and putting it out there, it's like, then, and it goes on, you know, the story continues. And every once in a while, someone will send me something they made. It's got the piano and I'm just like, wow, how cool is it? Whoever put that piano together, like if they'd only known. Yeah, it's really cool how you can give something life like that. Like,

Lomotor (49:44.929)

Yeah.

Lomotor (49:50.433)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (49:57.429)

Yeah.

Lomotor (50:02.529)

It's extended life, yeah.

Brian Funk (50:09.882)

like an old dead tree. It's going to eventually fertilize the ground, but now it's taking on this whole other direction. That's really cool.

Lomotor (50:18.269)

hope.

Lomotor (50:22.699)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:25.124)

I've been very interested in kind of off beat microphones lately. Cause I did make a pretty substantial mic purchase last year. I got a warm audio. She's, I don't even remember. It was like a telefunken kind of remodel. I love it. It's tube. It sounds amazing. It's definitely like the nicest mic I have.

Lomotor (50:44.481)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (50:53.131)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:53.254)

And I've got a couple others that are pretty nice, you know, C414. But I feel like I got that covered now. like, sound good enough. So now, like, all these little oddball things. Let me grab one real quick. just want to show you. This one.

Lomotor (51:05.621)

Right.

Brian Funk (51:19.43)

is a soda can microphone. this guy, and I, it's from the seventies, I think it is, uh, 200 years. Oh, it's the, uh, it's the bicentennial. That's what that is, the bicentennial. So it's a, it's a 50 year old, uh, soda can now. Uh, yeah. So this guy, Darwin audio makes these and, um, you can get all kinds of stuff and it's, it sounds like a soda can. It sounds like inside a soda can. It's.

Lomotor (51:22.411)

How old is that soda can too? It looks like a vintage soda can. Yeah.

Lomotor (51:36.641)

That's awesome.

Lomotor (51:46.689)

you

Brian Funk (51:48.551)

Like when you hear it, you'll just know. Yeah. Just like a couple of guitar recordings playing around. made a little kind of like a promo for the podcast. I called it a dedication because speaking of the blizzard of 26, this, I ordered one and it got lost in the mail. It was supposed to be delivered that day. We got two feet of snow. It never came. went through the post office and they were like, somebody picked it up.

Lomotor (51:51.083)

Have you used it on any recordings?

Lomotor (52:15.819)

Huh.

Brian Funk (52:18.342)

And we didn't pick it up. So, yeah, something, it was marked as picked up that somebody came and got it, but the time was weird. It didn't make sense. But the best they were able to tell me is to see if I could get a refund. So I wrote him and I was like, I don't expect you to refund me, but maybe you have insurance or something. And he's like, look, I'll just send you new one. And he sent it to me. And so I made like a little kind of.

Lomotor (52:20.693)

I wonder if it was just buried in snow somewhere.

Brian Funk (52:47.338)

ad promo ad kind of thing form to put on the beginning of podcast, but I love it. It's like you, you want something like a little weird with character. that's great. And I just got this other one too. It's a

Lomotor (52:49.909)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (53:03.558)

It's a telephone mic. Trash Talk Audio, they make this. Turns out they're on Long Island too. Sounds great. It's really nicely built. I made one myself out of a telephone just by soldering a cable into it, which I don't know how to solder, but I was able to do those two soldering marks with the little wires. But they sound awesome. And they sound very different from each other too.

Lomotor (53:05.387)

I've seen those, yeah.

Lomotor (53:32.897)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (53:33.706)

teenage engineering has this one called Ting that, they've got this like little sampling. forget what it's called now. Like they called it like the knockout or something. I never used it, but it's like a little sampler. and, they did like this kind of like reggae inspired one. And it came with this microphone. It's like this little handhold thing that has built in effects and you got to squeeze the button, like on a CB radio or something.

Lomotor (53:47.009)

Yeah.

Lomotor (54:02.401)

That's five. Great.

Brian Funk (54:04.057)

Yeah, but it sounds awesome. It's, and it's low fidelity, but man, character galore. And it's like, don't even have to process these things because they're sort of pre-processed and they have a character and you just leave them alone. Maybe put a little delay or reverb and you're good to go.

Lomotor (54:12.693)

Yeah.

Lomotor (54:17.557)

Right. Yeah.

Lomotor (54:23.553)

Do play, do you sing as part of your band? Do you play live? Would you ever use any of those in a live show?

Brian Funk (54:26.906)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:31.557)

I've, I've been thinking about this telephone one. Um, I'm just wondering about feedback because it is in that kind of frequency range. I was using it, uh, the other night, kind of in my live performance setup, then I was just going through my monitors and it was feeding back a little bit compared to my other mic. But I could imagine a situation maybe where I have it.

Lomotor (54:35.254)

Yeah.

Lomotor (54:41.793)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (54:52.149)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:58.501)

like next to the regular mic and maybe like on a verse I sing into the telephone and then on the chorus go into the, it can be kind of fun. Or even with this one, you can sort of just hold it up to your head and be like singing like that. And maybe it's part of like the show of it, get on the phone, like playing guitar.

Lomotor (55:01.397)

Red.

huh. That'd be fun.

Lomotor (55:16.031)

Yeah, right. You need a song that's like a conversation now between people. can switch personas. Right. Does anybody else in the band sing? can sing to each other through the phones.

Brian Funk (55:23.213)

Yeah, yeah, we'll have to get another one. Background vocals coming in.

Yeah, yeah, we all do, right? That's a fun idea. But these things are, they got character, they got personality.

Lomotor (55:38.785)

And do you think?

Yeah, would you think you could achieve that a similar sound in Ableton?

Brian Funk (55:48.762)

Yes. Yeah. Pretty darn close. You know, and I've got, I've made racks for myself that are like telephone effects where it's the EQ. You're basically just taking out all the highs and lows. maybe a little compression and distortion a little, but yeah, you're probably like 97 % of the way there. but I tell you when you, when you like,

Lomotor (55:51.851)

Yeah.

Lomotor (56:01.398)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (56:17.315)

talking to these phones, I don't know if it's because, you know, growing up talking to people on the phone, it sounds, it has that intimacy of like you're listening to somebody, they're writing your ear and their mouth is that far from the speaker. And, you know, you're talking about life late at night. It's got that sound that I don't think is the same when you do it with effects.

Lomotor (56:27.871)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (56:38.528)

Yeah, yeah.

Lomotor (56:46.347)

Right.

Brian Funk (56:47.553)

And I don't know what that is exactly, but...

Lomotor (56:52.267)

think probably just holding it too might change your performance, right? Like just the interaction with the thing or with the soda can is, you know, it's different than using into a regular mic and then processing it and able to like you yourself might in that delivery might do something a little different.

Brian Funk (57:13.123)

Yeah, I was playing my push the other night and I had the phone like in my shoulder. Like, you how we used have to do that? Like when you were talking on the phone, you held it between your ear and your shoulder. But that was really fun. I was like, this is great. I'm singing. But after like five minutes, I was like, man, my neck. Yeah, I'm married, yeah.

Lomotor (57:17.761)

Did you ever you're married right? So does your wife ever come in I don't want to get too personal if you don't want to talk about but like does she ever come in with something like that? Yeah, like what's going on?

Brian Funk (57:38.102)

Like, what the hell are you doing? Yes, she does. She's pretty used to it though. She'll like, okay, why are you recording that? Now she's more like, you should record that. yeah, there have been a few times where she's like, what? The worst, most puzzling thing I ever did for her was just I was recording guitar feedback for our...

Lomotor (57:52.705)

That's good, just I'm a team.

Brian Funk (58:07.439)

band's and I my friend's orange, it was like a practice amp, orange amplifier, but it had just a great feedback when you cranked it up all the way. So I had it all the way up and I was just moving my guitar around the amp, making all these noises and just sampling them all. made a sample pack of that guitar feedback and turned them into instruments, which are surprisingly gentle actually when you start putting them in samplers.

Lomotor (58:08.886)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:34.255)

Cause you know, it's like a screeching feedback, but when you put it in there, it's like all soft and mellow. yeah, yeah, it's really good for that. Actually. I thought it would be tearing through the speakers, but no, it's, it's interesting how it just like tames it. But that day she came down. She's like, what are you doing? What is this? Like, I think she was also just worried if I was okay.

Lomotor (58:39.497)

Yeah, I bet you could get some good pads from it.

Lomotor (58:57.153)

You

Lomotor (59:03.221)

You're lying there.

Brian Funk (59:03.599)

Like am I on fire, like passed out on the floor? Yeah. Like what's happening down here? But yeah, I can understand that day. Like,

Lomotor (59:13.793)

Yeah, I did something similar. I have this old box AC30. I got it because of OK Computer. It's what they use. I think it's what they use when they're recording. I like, love that amp. But I have a red. We have a double height living room. I ran. I can stand in this room and put the amp all the way up in that other room. And I have long cables that go to it and record.

Brian Funk (59:22.173)

yeah?

Brian Funk (59:28.133)

Beatles, I think, as a history.

Brian Funk (59:42.18)

Cool.

Lomotor (59:43.298)

But it's, you know, the neighbors can hear it. I'm out in the woods, right? Like it's loud. And I remember my mom was visiting. They were out for the day, but my mom was visiting. She came to this little window in the basement and just was like banging on the window like, we can't come into the house. You gotta stop.

Brian Funk (59:59.429)

Yeah, we can't come in. That's funny. I'm pretty lucky right now where I am with my neighbors. I don't think they hear too much of what I do. Being in the basement and a little bit of space. But where I used to live, I got visited from, think, every neighbor on every side of me at one point or another.

Lomotor (01:00:17.857)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:00:27.542)

Mostly being a little obnoxious too late at night. It always starts out like it's two in the morning, your friends and your buddies, you're coming home, you're like, let's play real quiet. You do for like two and a half minutes, but then next thing you know, we're crashing on the cymbals and turning on the overdrive pedals.

Lomotor (01:00:30.497)

Uh-huh.

Lomotor (01:00:39.841)

You

somebody turns up a little bit.

Lomotor (01:00:50.251)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:00:52.802)

So yeah, my neighbor's probably glad I don't live there anymore.

Lomotor (01:00:57.377)

Haha.

Brian Funk (01:01:00.932)

What are you gonna do?

Lomotor (01:01:02.187)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:01:05.634)

What? How do I pronounce the name of the new record? That is something I wanted to ask you.

Lomotor (01:01:10.539)

That's a question. Abkepsil ahead.

Brian Funk (01:01:13.6)

Abcapcilla had, okay?

Lomotor (01:01:15.649)

Yeah, ab caps ill ahead.

Brian Funk (01:01:18.04)

That's coming out June 6th, just so people know. But what is that?

Lomotor (01:01:21.473)

Thank you, yeah. It's a, that name. It's a good question. It came, I don't know exactly. It came to me in a dream years ago and I kind of half woke up and wrote it down on a bookmark that I had next to the bed. And then it just kind of sat there and I forgot about it. And I was just thinking about, I think it's at that point I thought, well, maybe I'll use it for something. I don't know what it means or whatever, but I'll just, I'll use it. And this album is.

Brian Funk (01:01:38.242)

Yeah, okay.

Lomotor (01:01:51.17)

It's a collection of tracks that kind of mix my nature and where I am now but I also grew up in nature and it mixes that.

the memories that I have being a child in running through the woods with the dogs or finding an old beat up car in the woods. I had a lot of freedom as a kid, that freedom with my brother and friends, we'd just go explore and probably hurt ourselves doing something, but it was just so much adventure. And I try to capture that feeling in these tracks.

And all that was, it's all nature is a theme through all that, right? So there's a lot of nature in it. But to me, that word at Capsule Head is this imaginary land that is maybe stemming from my childhood memories that have kind of turned into, obviously no childhood is ideal, but you know, have that ideal in your head. So it's a mix of that feeling and sort of my life now with nature.

Brian Funk (01:03:00.622)

Yeah, okay.

Lomotor (01:03:00.993)

I still have some old home videos too. You can see I've actually got them. There's my old VHS and some of the old home videos. And my dad, I know I've heard you talk about it. My dad, in 1980, he recorded just sort of everyday conversations around the house. And I have that cassette tape. It's two full sides.

Brian Funk (01:03:10.34)

Cool.

I got a VHS down here too.

Lomotor (01:03:30.419)

So I of used bits and pieces of my childhood throughout the songs. So you'll hear them kind of come in and out. It's usually it's pretty subtle and it'll just be like what I was talking about, some kind of rhythmic thing that's actually the voice of my dad cut up or that conversation that's chopped up mixed with some bird sounds or something that's also chopped up.

Brian Funk (01:03:35.108)

Nice.

Brian Funk (01:03:44.824)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:03:53.334)

But all that is using synths too. I wanted to make it musical. And I love electronic music, like electronica, especially Apex Twin and Boards of Canada. Boards of Canada are kind of my north star. And they've always, that type of music, that kind of older synth music also has a nostalgia to me. So somehow the, I don't know how cohesive it is, but somehow that combination of synths.

Brian Funk (01:04:06.521)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:04:22.813)

nature and bits and pieces from my childhood or what the album is.

Brian Funk (01:04:28.036)

Yeah, I get that actually a lot listening to it. It does sound almost like memories, kind of the way they exist in your mind, and all jumbled together kind of, and interacting.

Lomotor (01:04:37.109)

Yeah, it's good to hear because, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that comes across to people or not. So, I appreciate it.

Brian Funk (01:04:44.216)

Yeah. Why is there a song called 1980 was a long time ago? Why are you calling out 1980?

Lomotor (01:04:52.289)

That's from specifically one of those recordings. Yeah, I have the tape over there. Oh. Okay.

Brian Funk (01:04:56.228)

It was 19A.

Brian Funk (01:05:01.709)

That's the year I was born and I'm like, no. I felt like called out for being old or something.

Lomotor (01:05:07.621)

I knocked over my little Zabeverchoo blog that I use for percussion. Yeah, mean, no, so I'm not trying to... My mom in that cassette recording actually says, yeah, yeah, that was a long time ago. So you'll hear her say it kind of in the background, but...

Brian Funk (01:05:15.989)

that's cool. Beavers, what cool animal.

Brian Funk (01:05:30.743)

huh. Okay, that's cool.

Lomotor (01:05:35.49)

and it was recorded in 1980. I'm not trying to call out anybody for being a I was born in 78, so... My birthday was yesterday. Thanks. Do you ever feel... I have to get over that... the concern of...

Brian Funk (01:05:45.011)

happy birthday. Very cool.

Lomotor (01:05:53.674)

sounding like old music or whatever. The music I make is the music I make. My thought was like, this is not for the youth of America or the world. Whoever likes it will like it. Probably not gonna be a 19 year old, but I can't concern myself with that, right?

Brian Funk (01:05:58.179)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:06:02.7)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:06:11.03)

I don't think so. And I guess a lot of the music I was making when I was 19 wasn't for 19 year olds at the time anyway. yeah, I don't know. don't, I don't feel old really. I still feel kind of like a kid that's fooling everybody. Like they think I'm a professional. They think I'm like, I get invited to meetings at work and I still kind of feel like.

Lomotor (01:06:17.983)

Right.

Lomotor (01:06:27.391)

I know.

Lomotor (01:06:31.637)

Me too.

Lomotor (01:06:35.691)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:06:39.672)

You sure you want me there? Like, when, when are they going to realize that I've been like fooling everyone? The imposter syndrome thing, I guess, right? Like, I, I'd feel that.

Lomotor (01:06:40.001)

They're gonna call me out, like they're gonna notice. I don't belong here. Yeah.

Lomotor (01:06:49.621)

Do think you'll be like that always? Like do think you'll be 80 and still feel like a kid?

Brian Funk (01:06:56.162)

Well, yeah, I think we all are. I think that's the real thing about it is we're all really just winging it. know, we're adults. We don't know what we're doing. We're trying our best. know, we might have learned from some experience and taken in what other people have said, but I mean, when you really get down to it, we don't know.

Lomotor (01:07:11.649)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:07:23.105)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:24.036)

I think maybe that's part of why when you're a teenager, you might resent your parents and authority. Cause you start to realize like, like you guys don't have your lives figured out. You're telling me what to do with mine. And that has changed more to, I guess, empathy now where I'm like, Oh yeah, they didn't know what they were never trying, what they didn't know. can't, I can't blame them. Cause I don't know.

Lomotor (01:07:36.967)

You

Lomotor (01:07:47.019)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:51.926)

I mean, being a teacher, think has really made me see that because sometimes that really weighs me down. I've sat in bed at night and been like, my God, especially if I don't know what I'm teaching the next day, if really, or it's not working out. Like, man, I don't know, what am I doing? These parents are giving me their kids 40 minutes a day, five days a week, and little do they know, I no idea what I'm doing.

Lomotor (01:08:08.565)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:08:19.647)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:08:20.129)

You start thinking that way and you go down these like spirals and I've had to find ways of dealing with that. because yeah, I don't, I don't know. We don't, I don't think we know as much as we pretend we do or as much as people think we do. I'm trying to find comfort in that nowadays. More than anything. There is a weird comfort in that like, you know, we don't know.

Lomotor (01:08:27.989)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:08:40.043)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:50.285)

We're trying, but.

Lomotor (01:08:51.829)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's if you can come to terms with that and just embrace it accept it You know, then even then it's enough to stress about like what's the there is no point in worrying about like no Am I mature enough like you are who you are? Yeah, don't be nervous or I think and to your point I think probably the most of those other people in the room that you're with feel similar to the way you do Right there, but they might be thinking you have your life put together much more than they do

Brian Funk (01:08:58.156)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:09:06.595)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:09:16.107)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:09:21.237)

Right. Yeah. We had like a, we have these like spirit days at school and, there's one day we had like rock music day and I brought my guitar in and had like a wig on. And I was like, little do you guys know this is like actually me in my natural state. Today is the only day I'm not dressing up. know, it's the day I finally feel like myself in costume.

Lomotor (01:09:35.201)

And you have your telephone and one shoulder and the soda can and the other.

Brian Funk (01:09:50.155)

Yeah. Yeah. Like this is who I am. I'm not that serious of a person.

Lomotor (01:09:58.37)

I that kind of stuff is so important for creativity, Just to have that freedom. I don't know if it's Picasso. Yeah, to play exactly. Some famous, it might have been Picasso, loved watching kindergartners paint, right? Because there's you know, presupposed ideas of what art should be, right? They're just totally making it for the sake of making it without like...

Brian Funk (01:10:03.394)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:06.893)

play.

Lomotor (01:10:25.089)

him learn how to make a hand the right way or whatever, draw an eye, right? It's just, I think that's actually have sort of through, you see some things throughout the room. I've intentionally left toys from my childhood. I've kind of scattered around. I have some Star Wars figures hanging from the ceiling and stuff just to just keep that childish mentality.

Brian Funk (01:10:27.875)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:44.451)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:10:52.105)

in here, when I'm making music I want to just be that tree to make whatever you want. There's always a time and place to curate it later on and mix and master and all that stuff. be a child, be free when you're in that first creative process.

Brian Funk (01:10:58.839)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:11.917)

Hmm. Yeah, I do the same thing. got some toys scattered around and little knickknacks that are just for no other reason than just like exactly what you said. It is pretty interesting how kids will just jump in on things. They'll just do it. They're not thinking if they're good at it or bad at it, but something does happen along the way. I'm teaching eighth grade this year for the first time. I've always done high school.

Lomotor (01:11:18.571)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:41.986)

And I see it even in them. they're a little more free and like when it's, if we're going to draw something in class, like, okay, yay. And even just ninth grade, they're like, I'm not good at drawing or I don't know how to draw. I can only do stick figures and like all these things they've somehow now put in their identity that the other kids, the eighth graders I'm watching changed. Like it's like, they're different than they were in September.

Lomotor (01:11:44.521)

a little freer.

Lomotor (01:11:56.321)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (01:12:03.659)

Yeah, it's sad, isn't it?

Brian Funk (01:12:12.109)

They, first of all, they're cool now. Like, I'm cool. I don't care about anything anymore. Watch them like they have recess and they go play outside. And in the beginning of the year, it's just like kids running around chasing balls, doing cartwheels and backflips. like, you're like, look at these crazy kids. And now like they're back outside again, it's a little warmer and there's a lot more standing around in groups and like huddling around in the distance.

Lomotor (01:12:14.335)

Right. huh.

Lomotor (01:12:26.539)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:12:33.569)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, everybody's like worried about what the others are doing, thinking about them. Yeah, it's sad. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:40.523)

Yeah, I'm like, no, it got away, you know? You let it get away, someone or it squeezed out of you or something.

Lomotor (01:12:50.657)

Yeah. But isn't, I think, becoming a creative adult is learning to really embrace that freedom, right? To forget about that concern about what are the cool kids thinking, you know, over in that corner about what this silly music I'm making. I think the faster people can get over that concern about what others think or their own insecurities, the more fun you'll have making something.

Brian Funk (01:12:59.288)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:03.587)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:13:16.225)

Yeah, I think so. I think that is almost the entire trick of it. I don't think I ever left that so much, you know? Yeah, like, well...

Lomotor (01:13:26.689)

Good for you. I think me too. I'm just secretive about it.

Brian Funk (01:13:31.893)

Yeah, like, you know, my friends growing up, we've always embraced being silly and a little weird and we laughed at it and, got a kick out of just that in itself. And we were always drawing and then we were getting into music. So we kind of kept a creative thing going. And, and I guess cause of that, we got a little bit better than maybe our average peer. And maybe that helped us get through that a little.

Lomotor (01:13:50.251)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:14:00.332)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:01.622)

But yeah, I've always tried to keep that and enjoy that even like being around like little kids and not being afraid to just play whatever they're doing on the rug and being around even, even the high school kids, even though they are really concerned about all that stuff, they still have a freshness to them. Or at least some of them, you know, and

Lomotor (01:14:23.115)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:14:28.833)

You

Brian Funk (01:14:30.946)

That's, that helps. But I think you really do. You got to not worry about it. As soon as I start worrying about that stuff, I always kind of run out of steam. If I start thinking I need a clever progression or an interesting whatever, I need to impress fellow producers or, you know, show that I know music theory a little bit. All these things.

Lomotor (01:14:32.843)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:14:41.375)

Yeah, it freezes up real quick.

Lomotor (01:14:55.295)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:59.052)

Half of the music that I love is so simple. Most of it is. It's really basic. Just a few twists here and there maybe, but...

Lomotor (01:15:01.888)

Right.

Lomotor (01:15:07.765)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:15:10.206)

I don't know. I find that's the worst thing that happens to me is when I'm thinking about it and wondering if it's good or if people like it or if I like it even.

Lomotor (01:15:20.725)

Yeah.

My arm.

Brian Funk (01:15:24.1)

I like working real fast for that reason, so I don't have time to think about that.

Lomotor (01:15:28.735)

yeah, me too. Fastest. Don't, don't, don't worry about, don't judge the decisions, right? Just go, just keep, keep that momentum. And then if, especially if you're, yeah, if you're feeling like, if you like it, then just keep, keep, you know, ride that wave for as long as it lasts. Try to, try to maintain that, you know, if you have one idea and it brings to another and then branches out to a couple more, try to do all those.

Brian Funk (01:15:35.98)

Yeah. Go and react to do it. React to it. Make something else.

Brian Funk (01:15:55.778)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:15:56.044)

follow those trails as quickly as you can to, cause it dries up, right? Like it definitely, if you think like, I'll stop now and come back tomorrow or something, it's so hard to get right back into that rhythm. It's much better just to, no, no.

Brian Funk (01:16:08.374)

Yeah, you're never the same. You're not the same person. The atmosphere is different. Something happened in the news or, you know, it is very hard to get back to that.

Lomotor (01:16:15.818)

Right.

Lomotor (01:16:20.501)

better to put it all out. Don't worry about what it is that day. Just get everything. It's like the opposite of Michelangelo, like make...

Brian Funk (01:16:24.962)

.

Lomotor (01:16:27.487)

make the rock as big, make a huge boulder of stuff, right? You can always go back then the next week and start to carve away that boulder that you've made and then you find the sculpture within. But try to put it all out there first and, know, mute tracks at that point. Later on, then you can sort of go, well, do we really need these 15 extra synth lines or where's the core of this? Maybe I can get rid of all this stuff.

Brian Funk (01:16:51.442)

Mm.

Lomotor (01:16:55.637)

That part for me is the part that takes forever. I like this part, but I like this part too, but the clash, which one do I pick? That'll take months sometimes.

Brian Funk (01:17:03.906)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:17:08.042)

It's tough because you put the time into all of it and they're all your babies. They're all like kind of precious and special and, but yeah, we need to have that little thing.

Lomotor (01:17:10.667)

Yeah, yeah. If you like them all. Right.

Lomotor (01:17:23.573)

That's where you wish you had some other ears to Which one? Tell me which one to pick.

Brian Funk (01:17:29.366)

That's one nice thing about collaborating, working with other people and in the band it can just be like, no, no, don't do that. Just do this or do this instead. And you're like, okay.

Lomotor (01:17:33.291)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:17:37.729)

Right.

Yeah. Sometimes you're like, okay. But I really like that part. My, just.

Lomotor (01:23:57.396)

It reminded me of a story, or something that just happened to me recently with my daughter, who's just about to turn 11.

Lomotor (01:24:10.401)

No, I'm sorry, 11. She's just about to turn 10. She's acting like a 14 year old. But, no, she's nine for the next month. She...

When she was in kindergarten, she had a friend on the bus and they would start writing songs just out of the blue. They'd write down their notebooks and they'd memorize the melodies. They had like 15 songs just that they just would create on the bus. And I didn't want to put any pressure on them or like, you know, be a musical parent, right? I just kind of offered my services. Like I could record and put it out there in the world. They didn't even know what Spotify was. were like, we want to know the internet. And I was like, I can do that.

So we recorded it down here and I think a few times I tried to be like, you know, sure you want to like, you want that part to be on, you know, to a rhythm or something. They're like, no, the response to anything I suggested was like, definitely not. So it's totally their thing. It's just them singing. Yeah. But I was totally, I did some producer things. I realized that like this is, I'm getting sidetracked, but I did at one point, like this is a little later. They've done a couple of songs now, but their met their energy level was low.

Brian Funk (01:25:05.579)

That's funny. Yeah. You're the producer.

Lomotor (01:25:21.161)

And I was like, sing more and they weren't doing it. So was like, okay, you two, like, I'm gonna leave the room. Scream as loud as you can for 30 seconds and jump all around. And they loved it. like, yes. And like, you know, they did that and came back and recorded their song. it was like their energy level was much higher and it sounded good. But my point for the story was...

Over a couple days my daughter kind of brought up, she was like, you know that old song we did in kindergarten? I if I like that one. I was like, no, I think it's fine. were in kindergarten. Then she brought up again. And it turned out she was getting into bed and she was like, some girl had made fun of her song and heard it and said to make fun of them for singing it. And she was all kind of torn up about it. So we had this long talk about creativity, what you and I were talking about.

My point was, even Taylor Swift, K-pop, Demon Hunter, millions of people in the world love them, and millions of people will hate them, it doesn't matter. We had this whole good talk about creativity.

You shouldn't, you can't worry about what other people think. She was like, do people ever make fun of your music? And I was like, yes, they do. And this is a topic I can absolutely talk about. I can help you with this one. It was a rare occasion, feel like as a parent where could, I could actually be helpful. You know, she was at the end, she was like, thank you. But it's not, I'm hoping that she gets over that, right? Yeah. And I think, I think it did actually help. Yeah. I'm hoping that she, she can kind of just.

Brian Funk (01:26:40.724)

Hmm.

Hmm. That's great you were there. In that moment.

Lomotor (01:26:52.085)

brush that off. You're going to have to learn to brush criticism off anyway.

Brian Funk (01:26:55.838)

Yeah.

I mean, that's really cool they got into that. And then I could imagine you, you're probably like, boy, like, come on in. then, yeah, then the temptation and yeah, you want, hey, let me show you something cool. But to let them just kind of have at it and do it. But yeah, that's kids too. Like they're ruthless and...

Lomotor (01:27:05.683)

Yeah. Right. Do want me to reverse your voices? No.

Lomotor (01:27:24.865)

to.

Brian Funk (01:27:24.926)

You know, it's like so natural for us to want to be, to want to fit in. Like our ancestors that didn't fit in, well, we don't have those ancestors. They didn't have children. didn't survive and pass on their DNA. So we are descendant of people who were accepted. And that's a big reason humans have been able to survive in nature is because we had each other. so that's, it's a real pull, but,

Lomotor (01:27:36.161)

bread.

Lomotor (01:27:52.117)

to fit in, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:27:54.719)

to be able to help her through that, to get to the bottom of it too, that it was like, yeah, somebody said something. If she takes it down or deletes it or whatever, you've just empowered her.

you've given her too much, now she controlled you. And that's so much you see it with kids. They're like, watch this. Watch what power I have over this other kid's feelings. I'm gonna go be mean to them and like, yay, look at me, I'm empowered. But yeah, you kinda see it. mean, they tease each other a lot.

Lomotor (01:28:13.589)

that.

Lomotor (01:28:22.411)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (01:28:28.629)

You must see that a lot.

Brian Funk (01:28:37.568)

It's funny that, and then they're best friends though too. It's like my best friend poured chocolate milk in my backpack. like, I think that's how we express, we're constantly trying to figure out our rank on the totem pole and it's always changing. But I, I've kind of just been saying, I'm like, that's your friend. picked him. You know, like that's what you guys do. And you wish she could just like, put that in their heads, like knowing what you know now, of course, right? Like.

Lomotor (01:28:49.569)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:29:06.526)

Yeah. The kids that nobody bothers are the kids that nobody can affect. I mean, I had that growing up. Like it was like my last name, Funk. Like there's a lot of fun ways to twist that around and make a kid's life miserable. I was a pitcher and I just threw the ball as hard as I could and was able to do pretty well in Little League, right?

And the first time I ever heard like, we want the funk or play that funky music was from the other team singing it at me to frazzle me. Like that's when I first heard those songs, you know, kids singing at me aggressively, know, taunting me. And it would really drive me crazy. And I couldn't throw a strike anymore. I'd be mad and like fuming and kicking the dirt.

Lomotor (01:29:46.187)

Huh.

funny.

Lomotor (01:29:54.389)

Huh.

Huh.

Lomotor (01:30:01.558)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:30:04.852)

But like one day I was just like, I'm not gonna care about that anymore. I just, for whatever reason, decided I'm not gonna care. It's my name, you know, we don't pick our names, whatever, you get what you get. And as soon as I did that, like, it just changed everything. Like they would do that and I'd be like, they must be worried now, cause, you know, and then I would sort of fire me up or, and then from there, like people were like, it's a cool name, you know, instead of like,

Lomotor (01:30:16.651)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (01:30:25.793)

right.

Lomotor (01:30:33.621)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:30:34.336)

turning it into like a curse word or whatever. Then as soon as it didn't have the power over me, it changed. And that was a big lesson growing up. you wish, like you see some kids getting so upset about what they're saying and I'm like, all you have to do is not care. Or at least pretend you don't care for long enough. And I make.

Lomotor (01:30:41.323)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:30:54.549)

Yeah. Right. So much of high school, yeah, or middle school, both for me was that. I just, I look back and I'm like, why was I so stressed about what people thought of me? So embarrassed about things that are totally not embarrassing. Or even if they are, so what? know, kids just... Yeah. Right. Yeah. The sooner you can get over that, the...

Brian Funk (01:31:15.924)

Yeah, most of it's, everyone's going through half the things anyway. Yeah.

Lomotor (01:31:23.797)

better it should be for it. Don't, don't. Right. I think you just have to live it.

Brian Funk (01:31:25.662)

You just don't have the world view yet. You know, you're so tuned in. Your own perspective is all you got.

Lomotor (01:31:33.377)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:31:34.816)

You feel so alone and in that. Yeah, it's tough. I don't envy them. I'll tell you that. I'm never looking at them like, I wish I was in that grade again. It's like, I'm so glad I don't deal with that crap anymore.

Lomotor (01:31:43.201)

Yeah. Yeah, no.

feel like that, we want the funk or something, like that should be your walk-off song as a pitcher, right? Like, that's... Yeah, that's funny.

Brian Funk (01:31:57.184)

Yeah, well they had weaponized it on me. Like, we want the funk. Like, oh man, like, they were like, you have no idea, I'm just so mad. It's like, because I can't throw a strike anymore. just furious and everything fell apart from that.

Lomotor (01:32:09.249)

you

Lomotor (01:32:14.483)

funny

Lomotor (01:32:18.549)

Huh.

When I first started listening to your podcast, thought it was a made-up. I thought it wasn't your real last name. It seems like a musician would, you know, that's your music persona. I'm Brian Funk. I'm the funky guy.

Brian Funk (01:32:29.151)

Yeah, well, and I resisted that for a long time because of funk music. I don't make funk music and I didn't want to have a preconceived notion. But it's so much easier once I decided to just be it.

Lomotor (01:32:47.061)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:32:50.951)

I don't know. It's kind of weird we have to come up with artist names anyway. You have an artist name? Like, where does that come from? I've never heard that word before. Low motor.

Lomotor (01:33:02.005)

Yeah, I just made it up. just drew a long, long list. Yeah, I just wrote a long list of options. I kind of just tried to throw letters around and then whittle it down to that. And I just liked the look of it. I kind of like how the O's. I like spelling it too, L-O-M-O-T-O-R. Like it just, I don't know. Yeah. And at the time, I was kind of thinking more.

Brian Funk (01:33:03.967)

Just like the album.

Brian Funk (01:33:22.483)

Yeah, they're spaced out like that.

Lomotor (01:33:28.777)

techno-y music wise I thought it kind of looks like a car even. The O's look like wheels. It's kind of cool. It's not really a nature-y thing. Now it's just made up and I like the sound of it.

Brian Funk (01:33:41.533)

Hmm. That's cool. You know, you don't even think about it after the first time you process it. It almost just goes away. That's just what they're called. You know, any artist, you're just... After a while, you don't even realize you're saying it.

Lomotor (01:33:49.355)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:33:57.89)

and Funk Railroad, just talking about funk. What a weird band name, you know, they're just a band. You don't think about it.

Brian Funk (01:34:02.687)

Yeah. Yeah. That's the funny thing about my whole life has been most of the time people show me these or bring them up or sing them at me before I ever hear them. Like, I don't know what they're talking about. I think like somebody called me Grand Funk Railroad before I ever knew what it was. Like, what the hell did you just call me? Like, what? You know, but it's a funny existence, I guess. We all get...

Lomotor (01:34:13.803)

that you don't

That's a weird thing to say.

Brian Funk (01:34:30.897)

little things like that, you know, helps you not take yourself seriously, I guess.

Lomotor (01:34:37.151)

Yeah. I also kind of like just talking about names. I like when there's lore behind a name and it's not so straightforward, right? Like maybe it's annoying to people, right? I've wondered about this name in the album that Capsula had. Like that's hard to spell. Nobody's going to remember how to say it. But I kind of like creating maybe a little mystery or at least that question in people's minds. What does that mean? Maybe that's like putting too much on.

I don't know. To me I prefer that over something that's just called album one or something.

Brian Funk (01:35:12.657)

Yeah. Well, it kind of gives it a world a little bit, you know? Like you said, it's a world. I have no preconceived notions on it. You I'm not connecting it with things I already have experience with. So there's something cool about that. Yeah.

Lomotor (01:35:17.291)

Yeah, right.

Lomotor (01:35:26.038)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:35:30.763)

Yeah, right. Yeah. I think that's it. No, no preconceived notions about what it is. Make it unto itself. Yeah. Right. That's good.

Brian Funk (01:35:38.493)

Yeah, I mean, I really had no idea what I was going to hear when I opened it up, you know, which is cool. You're going fresh.

Brian Funk (01:35:51.314)

I guess we've kind of been hitting on these just sort of by the nature of the conversation. But one of the cool things you sent me was your creative guide. So you have this kind of seven pillars, seven statements here, your creative guide. You got be consistent, be creative for yourself, ride the social media wave with caution, convenience, make it yours. Perfect is the enemy of good. And one song at a time.

How'd you come up with those? I see some of them might have some stories behind them as well. Any ones that you think are especially important or?

Lomotor (01:36:35.073)

Yeah, most of those are just through experience or listening to other people. I think I heard BT on a podcast talking about how he has stations to make everything convenient. It's so easy to... I mean, I do it all the time. I was like, I could record this with the synth over here, but it's turned off. It literally, it's like two buttons to turn on.

And it's just like, I'll just do it in Ableton. Which is what, like, most of what I do are Ableton softsense, and I love that. like, I try to set up everything in the room here to make it as easy as possible to do it. Because if it takes 15 minutes to set up, you're with loss, right? And if you have an idea, you want to do fast, I think you've talked about this too in your room.

make it quick. Everything on this side here I've got on one power strip.

Brian Funk (01:37:34.333)

Hmm, that's fun looking. What do we got? Some petals and... Let's see, something's like a... Hmm.

Lomotor (01:37:40.95)

Yeah, so drum machine, there's a Russian drum machine, some synth and stuff, they all, each synth has its own chord outputting from it. So all I have to do is, I run them all through the pedals, but I'll just plug that one in to the pedals chain, turn it on. It's all in one power strip, so just one on button. My interface is always on anyway, know, and the preamp, and then you're ready to go.

Brian Funk (01:38:00.137)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:38:10.273)

So it's under 10 seconds to get going. think that's the same on the other side, just a different station, right? It's all connected to one power switch, turn that power switch on and you can go.

Brian Funk (01:38:15.763)

Yeah, that's...

Brian Funk (01:38:20.212)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:38:25.201)

And we keep like all the mics on the drums and the guitar amps. And I got a template in live that I just opened and it's ready to go. It's already half mixed and we can just record band practice and all of these things around me are ready to go. I've got the like smart outlet things. I think that's what they're called. They're like a little...

Lomotor (01:38:43.029)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:38:53.535)

You plug it into your outlet and then you plug into that. So it's just like a little box, but it's connected to Siri. So I just have to tell her to turn it on. I don't want to say the exact words because she'll, she's very sensitive to that. She's always listening, but, um, I look like, what does it save me?

Lomotor (01:38:57.579)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:39:08.991)

You

Brian Funk (01:39:17.343)

probably 20 seconds and maybe just like bending down on the floor to flip a few switches, it makes a difference. It's just nice to tell it to come on and turn off and then I can just start. Those little things are a lot. mean, micing the drums or just even having the tracks inside the computer, like that could take a while and that's the difference between us recording practice or not.

Lomotor (01:39:19.073)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:39:26.027)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:39:45.974)

Right, yeah, definitely. And that's cumulative too, right? Like, I think if you only do music a little bit, it doesn't make a difference really. But if you're doing music every day, you know, if you have a couple of those conveniences, it does add up, just smooth.

Brian Funk (01:39:47.101)

You know? So, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:40:03.11)

I think so. If you can steal back a minute or two here, there, a few different times every session over the course of a year. I mean, you've got extra bonus sessions basically. And you're yeah. And you're not like, I have this idea. It's great. It's great. hold on. Let me wire everything together. And then what was that idea? that's not a great idea. And you're out of it, you know? So.

Lomotor (01:40:15.211)

Yeah. And then you're just keeping your brain creative instead of thinking about the life. Yeah. Right.

Lomotor (01:40:28.755)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:40:32.466)

Yeah, that's a good one. Convenience.

Lomotor (01:40:35.361)

What else is on the list? consistency too, just doing it. I get up early every morning just to do it. Even if it's a short while, 20 minutes or something, I think it's good to have that routine. Just get used to doing it every day and then a lot of what you produce will probably be stuff you hate. But if doing it every day...

you're just increasing the odds, right? It's that simple. Increasing the odds that you'll create something that you like and can create something more out of it. I'd say probably 90 % of what I'm doing, I don't go back and finish. It's just some live project saved. But then if I hit on something and I'm liking it, this is where the one track principle comes in too is...

Brian Funk (01:41:17.982)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:41:26.785)

Chase that down for as long as you've got the energy to do it. Don't give up halfway through. When you do hit on something you like, finish that and don't leave it in your files for another year or whatever. Finish that song, follow it through, spend the time to finish it. I think you've talked about this too. Then you get in the habit of finishing things also.

Brian Funk (01:41:34.59)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:41:39.816)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:41:53.138)

Yeah, there's a habit to that. Yeah, the longer it sits on the computer, the more likely it is gonna not exist. It's like, what is that? The first 48 hours of a crime or something, right? Like detectives talk about are the most important. It's kind of that way with music too. Like otherwise, you know, the dust settles, the evidence is contaminated and you you don't feel it anymore or another idea came up.

Lomotor (01:41:53.909)

more.

Lomotor (01:42:09.022)

You

Lomotor (01:42:12.353)

you

Lomotor (01:42:16.949)

Red.

Lomotor (01:42:23.733)

Yeah, absolutely.

Brian Funk (01:42:24.114)

Yeah, you have to really push the ideas through as fast as possible, I think. There's some exceptions to that, but it just increases your odds. And I think it's a good way to look at it. It's sort of like a numbers game, just quantity showing up, showing up, showing up. And every once in a while, something gets there.

Lomotor (01:42:44.363)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:42:51.201)

Yeah, you dig through a lot of coal, but then you might hit a diamond now and then.

Brian Funk (01:42:58.994)

Yeah, you gotta show up. Gotta keep doing it. It's so much more free too, because when you have one project, this is the one of the year. It's too precious. It's your artistic statement. There's too much wrapped up into it. If you're just pouring out tracks, you're be like, yeah, sometimes I'm weird. Sometimes I'm silly. Sometimes I don't make sense. Sometimes it's cheesy.

Lomotor (01:43:10.475)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lomotor (01:43:21.697)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (01:43:26.209)

I know some creative people who are worried about all that. They're so good and they're just worried they don't finish anything. For whatever reason it's not good enough. I listen to stuff and don't Yeah, right. Everybody's so worried. I can't put it out. It's not exactly what I want. Sometimes it only comes out. I don't know.

Brian Funk (01:43:39.87)

That's perfect as the enemy of good. You got in there too.

Lomotor (01:43:52.61)

I think that's a way of paralyzing yourself. What's the point of it? Maybe if you want to listen to it for yourself, great, but if you're nervous about releasing it.

Lomotor (01:44:07.615)

That's what I'm talking about.

Brian Funk (01:44:11.656)

You know, the things that I've labored over the most, I think have the least amount of longevity with me because I've already put in so much time with it. So familiar with it. It doesn't surprise you anymore. But the things that I kind of power out and then I can hear it a month later and be like, yeah, this song. And like, that was cool. What happened here?

Lomotor (01:44:20.907)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:44:40.718)

Those tend to just stay interesting longer. Maybe there's just a kind of limit to how much you can listen to any piece of music. If you're going to labor over it, you'll get there sooner. Whereas if it's a fast thing, you come back to it, it's always fresh.

Lomotor (01:44:51.648)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:45:01.109)

have both. I have more fun doing the ones that come quickly, That's the most fun I get.

But I have one track that I can think of in particular, Be in a Bag, where I really liked, I knew I was like, this is a good synth line, I wanna make a cool song out of this. And I recorded a Yellowjacket, a Ground Hornet was in the house. I caught it in a brown bag. I was flying all around the bag as I was taking it out. I had my phone, was like, this sounds wicked, this sounds really cool. It's like this weird crackly, buzzy noise. So recorded that and let it go outside.

But I had this song that had the synth and the matte sound. And I spent, I don't know how many hours and hours laboring over trying to get, I was like, I knew there's something here. I just, like, the mix is wrong or the drums aren't right. I just kept going back to it over at different periods. Finally, like, I still like that song. It's one of my favorites and people connect to that one. They like that one too. But it took a lot. And some, and you never know. That's the hard part I think about.

me anyway being a musician is is this worth it? I spend so many hours on this stupid thing. You know and then you get, you go ahead.

Brian Funk (01:46:08.934)

Yeah. That one's cool. I have a sample of a bee inside a...

It was like a, I think it was a Chinese food soup container, like a little plastic like quart. You know, he was in down here and I caught him in it and he's like, inside the thing and I sampled them and I've had the intention of putting that inside the sampler and seeing what I come up with. So I saw that. was like, no way. Same idea.

Lomotor (01:46:23.44)

huh. Yeah. huh.

Lomotor (01:46:35.617)

That's funny. Yeah, I wonder what kind of tamber the Chinese food container has versus a brown paper bag.

Brian Funk (01:46:42.49)

Yeah, I bet it's different, you know, instead of like hitting the paper. But again, there's like a story, right? Like, and that was an accident. The bee was in your house and that was, and the point of you catching them wasn't to sample them. You're just probably trying to just be humane and let them free. And then you realized, cool. Look at this. Like you sort of listened to the universe.

Lomotor (01:47:05.332)

Uh-huh.

Lomotor (01:47:09.761)

I've had to say that to many people on Instagram. Yes, the bee is okay. I let it go. didn't, yeah. I've got a couple of those like, yeah, you're a killer.

Brian Funk (01:47:15.804)

Yeah. You animal, you monster. Don't you know bees are endangered and if we didn't have bees.

Lomotor (01:47:25.057)

Like I know, I know, but it's really hard to put that in a, you know, an Instagram story cover. Like this song is called Be in a Bag, but I didn't kill the bee. Yes, I really value animals and I didn't, please just be nice.

Brian Funk (01:47:31.378)

Yeah, right.

Brian Funk (01:47:36.542)

Yeah. That's pretty funny. Well, hey, that's what you do. You stir up a little controversy once in a while.

Lomotor (01:47:47.873)

Yeah, yeah, yes.

Brian Funk (01:47:52.262)

So I want to be a little mindful of your time here. Really enjoy talking to you. We should tell people, of course, like they can find your music at your own bandcamp. Apple Music, Spotify, all that stuff, Low Motor. You've got the new record June 6th is the date, right? Coming out June 6th. So that'll be pretty soon. Something for people to look forward to. It's really cool. I'm...

Lomotor (01:48:13.249)

June 6th.

Brian Funk (01:48:20.835)

I'm in love with it. I'm really enjoying it. It's inspiring too. And it's fresh sounding and all kinds of stuff that I'm enjoying about music these days. So I think, I think people will get a kick out of it and your workflow is really cool and different and it comes through. It's really, it's worth all the effort you're putting in, I gotta say.

Lomotor (01:48:45.281)

Well, thanks so much, Brian. This has really been a thrill to talk to you. I know it sounds weird, but I have been listening to your podcast for a long time. I was kind of shocked when you like, yeah, let's talk. I feel like I'm meeting a celebrity. It's been a lot of fun to talk to you. But you're a very down to earth grounded kind of guy. it's been a real honor to have this conversation. Thank you for listening, and thanks for having me on.

Brian Funk (01:48:55.643)

Yeah, thank you for that. That's great.

Brian Funk (01:49:15.623)

Yeah, well thanks for being on. Hopefully this is not the end of it all, only the beginning, you know?

Lomotor (01:49:21.857)

Yeah, let's definitely stay in touch. I'd love to.

Brian Funk (01:49:25.021)

Cool. Well guys, go check out Low Motor, L-O-M-O-T-O-R. You can go to lowmotor.net. You can go to Instagram and YouTube. I'll put all the links in the show notes so you guys can see them. Check them out. It's doing cool stuff. Thanks for listening. Have a good day.

Lomotor (01:49:42.017)

Thanks. Bye.

The songs on The First Light were recorded at the moment I finished writing them on acoustic guitar. It's the first time anyone, including me, ever got to hear the songs.

Each song was written and recorded in a single session. Some songs were done on a single microphone, others had one on the vocal and one on the guitar. It's the songs in their purest form. They aren't stripped down versions because there was nothing yet to strip down!

Often the meaning of a song changes as we spend more time with them. Even the next day, we might feel differently than we did while writing. These songs are the original sentiments and feelings, without editing or rethinking. The performances are not yet rehearsed or calculated, and therefore, at times, a little shaky! But they are real, honest, and sincere.

In an age where art is more refined, polished, and generated than ever, I hope you enjoy the raw humanity of these recordings.

Written and Recorded by Brian Funk
Mastered by Animus Invidious
Cover Painting by Thomas Gambino III

YouTube Video Playlist:

In Nick’s return to the Music Production Podcast, we discuss his new Mighty Synth Sampler and the journey to create it. We get into how to avoid perfectionism by learning to enjoy the process. There's also a lot of talk about the creative workflow and avoiding burnout.

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Moby Pixel - http://www.mobypixel.com/

• Mighty Synth Sampler - http://www.mobypixel.com/mightysynthsampler

• The Story Behind Mighty Synth Sampler - https://youtu.be/3kW4RovVoEY?si=KuCDjysv2btNOUdB

• Nick's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/mobypixel/featured

• Overdrive Synth - http://www.mobypixel.com/overdrivesynth

• Nick's 1st Appearance on the Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/blog/nick-culbertson

• Matthew Fecher on the Music Production Podcast - https://www.brianfunk.com/blog/2018/6/30/66-matthew-fecher

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

• Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:02.17)

Welcome back to the show, Nick. Good to have you.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (00:09.093)

It's good to be back. It's been, did we decide it's been like three or four years?

Brian Funk (00:14.018)

Yeah, three and half years, October 2022.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (00:17.903)

I got to re-listen to the podcast because I wanted to see what we talked about and it's a totally different world now than it was four years ago. And so I took some notes, some things that have changed. You are in a band now and you put out an album. You wrote a book, a book, and you've done jammuaries like every year, right? And I have said I'm going to do jammuari every year and then haven't done it, but

Brian Funk (00:25.822)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (00:41.41)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (00:46.971)

At least I'm consistent. I did do it one of those years though.

Brian Funk (00:50.466)

Yeah, I feel like I remember seeing you posting something about it and showing up.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (00:56.903)

Yeah, it was awesome. I tried to like record a different sample for each day and then sort of like make music from the sample. So that's sort of led to this whole sampling world thing that I'm doing now. But also in that time, I, you might not know this, I made presets in 10 AudioKit Pro apps, including SagaSynth. So Matthew, he's just a machine. I can't believe he's released like over 10 apps and

Brian Funk (01:04.162)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:20.942)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:26.663)

that short of time. I've been doing a bunch of YouTube videos, I've been making all these like MIDI gadgets and stuff that are behind me. And then I released the app, Mighty Sense Sampler. Thank you, man. It's been a long time coming here. there were times whenever I was like just not interested in it, you know, because you've spent so much time working on something and throughout the course of making it,

Brian Funk (01:38.584)

Yeah, congratulations.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:55.015)

I've kind of tried on different tactics to keep focused on the project. And sometimes that the tactic is stop working on it for a while, know, step away from the computer, which is not something I normally decide, but it's a good way to not get burnt out if you do that. I think also I would, do the monthly challenges, you know, just like January, instead of doing it for music, I would do it for things like I'm going to work on

Brian Funk (02:07.182)

Hehehe.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:24.261)

Updating apps every day and so it would be it didn't matter if it was five minutes or an hour I would do that and I might just have different steps and so I found that to be super useful throughout this Let's see, also, you know the pomodoro timer It's stupid, but I swear it works sometimes that one Then you also think about like who you're serving like you think about the end users that are gonna have your product And so each of these things

kept on trying and that's what would bring me back to it. But the reason I bring this up is because near the end of the project, whenever I was like, you know, fixing the 10,000th bug, I thought after I get done with this, I'm going to go back on Brian Funk's podcast and I'm going to talk about making this app. And, yeah, that was, you were the wind beneath my wings.

Brian Funk (03:16.31)

Wow, that's the best thing I've heard in a while. I've always wanted to be the wind beneath someone's wings. I'm it.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (03:19.977)

hahahaha

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (03:24.169)

I mean and then there's there's there's like the conventional ones too like Seth Godin He says like just show up every day. He shows up

Brian Funk (03:33.394)

Yeah, I read his blog every day, even just the fact that he's showing up every day. Like sometimes it applies. Sometimes it's really marketing specific and you know, it doesn't really resonate with me, but I like just seeing like, he is again and again and again. So I have a few people like that that I follow because I'm just like, okay, they're still going. Keep going.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (03:51.528)

Yes.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (03:56.326)

Yeah. Well, the one thing that really resonated with me and making this that I came across because I was, I do a few interviews on my YouTube channel. It's not a podcast because it's too random when it happens, but I talked with Merrick, the guy who made Koala Sampler and I got a quote here from him. So this is from his website for Koala Sampler where he's talking about sort of the inspirations behind Koala Sampler. So if you don't know,

Brian Funk (04:06.914)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (04:14.701)

That's a cool one.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (04:25.939)

Koala Sampler, it's like an SP404 type sampler thing for iOS, Android, and all these other things. And for some people, it's like their main DAW that they use. He said, the idea behind Koala was to make a sampling workstation with no brake pedal, no way to stumble down the rabbit hole of micro editing, tweaking parameters, undoing, redoing, et cetera. I just want people to be less precious about their creations and get on creating.

It's like drawing with a permanent marker instead of a pencil. For some reason, that message just hit me at the right time. I think because I have a tendency to be a perfectionist with the work that I'm doing, which we all do. And what makes you really double down on it is when you spend a long time trying to create something, right? It's like someone who's in graduate school and everything is saying,

Brian Funk (04:58.733)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (05:21.317)

Every fiber of their body is saying, I might not get a job at the end of this, but then they're thinking, but I've already been in school for, you know, a million years. So I got to stay the course. and so you kind of have to set that aside because what happens when you're trying to make something perfect is you would think that would mean you would put more work into it and make it better. But really what happens is you can start self-sabotaging yourself and you can get

Brian Funk (05:25.388)

There.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (05:50.846)

Frozen because you have to make a decision, you know, and instead if you're just thinking I'll make a decision I'll give you a concrete example when this happened is as I was finishing the app I was gonna make a launch video for it and You know three or four years have gone by I was thinking what am I gonna talk about in this video? I could talk about a million things and then finally I came back to this not being precious about the work and just thought Whatever I put down. That's what the video is and that's fine, you know and then

Brian Funk (05:54.562)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (06:20.635)

If anything's not right, then you fix it in the future, you know? Because, yeah, the perfectionism, think it has, just as it's a lens as you're looking at your work, it's also a mirror pointing back at you. It's the same reason why for a long time I couldn't read reviews to my apps, because I was afraid something was gonna be wrong with it, right? So you're just, and I think that applies to everyone. Like, you might be...

Brian Funk (06:43.053)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (06:48.507)

Not wanting to put your music out into the world because what if people reject it? What if you know, you're not as good a guitarist as this guy on tick talk. So who are you to post your stuff? but I think if you just are not precious about it and you just do the work and you're enjoying the process, then that can sort of be the prize right there. It's not about the result. What people think about it. It's great if they like it, but that's largely out of your control.

Brian Funk (07:18.253)

I love that. think it's important because you want to put out this thing and get it done and make it this get it done first of all what does that even mean so you've got to figure out where your line is and of course in your mind you want it to be as good as it can be but you do you get so focused on what it becomes and the product of it and lose sight of the enjoyment and the process and

It takes a lot of fun out of it and like you said, paralyzes you too. I like to think of it sometimes almost like if you're doing a crossword puzzle or something. Like I don't just want the answers, right? I'm not, it's not that I want the answers. I want this thing filled out. It's like, I want to go through it. Specifically, I do like the word all a lot and I do it with my students at school and sometimes like there's a kid in the class that already did the word.

And I'll joke with him and I'll be like, well, just tell us then we don't have to do this. all the other kids are like, no, no, no, no. And I try to explain to him, well, that's kind of like writing. It's not so much what you get. It's also just going through it. It's just creating. And I try to remember that in the music making process because otherwise you can make yourself a little nuts because then you start comparing it with other stuff to see if it is perfect. And you'll always find something.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (08:19.55)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (08:43.969)

to be upset about or disappointed or let down with, or even if it is as perfect as it can be, like you said, that other person on TikTok can just play better guitar than you.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (08:54.555)

Right. I think what I'm searching for is a permission structure to not be perfect. And one way you can find that is sometimes by listening to some of the music you might've listened to when you're a kid, because in your mind, that stuff sounds great. And then you go back and listen to some of it, like some of like the underground bands, and you're like, I mean, what was great is the raw energy and stuff is the song, but the recording isn't so great. And

Brian Funk (09:04.813)

you

Brian Funk (09:13.997)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (09:23.197)

Honestly, if I listen to some of the modern music now, I mean, this is old man yelling at the clouds, but like the loudness war is killing my eardrums. Okay. So like sometimes like something whenever like every beat of the snare and the kick sounds like an explosion after a while, there's just like no dynamics to it anymore. and not that like I'm a professional mix engineer. As a matter of fact, I feel like the type of music I'm more drawn to now.

Brian Funk (09:45.101)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (09:52.572)

It's just like lo-fi beats, stuff I can listen to, I can do what I'm focusing on and the music is more trying to evoke a feeling in the background. It's like, it's setting the mood, you know, as opposed to, hey, look at me, I'm going to do, here comes the shred guitar solo, you're not looking at me.

Brian Funk (10:13.598)

Yeah, right. I feel lucky that I appreciate the lo-fi aesthetic and I like things that are a little rough around the edges. And some of that stuff that I like about music I used to listen to as a kid, it has that. It has that. When you listen back, you're like, wow, they really speed up in this song. Yeah, the vocal is a little, those harmonies aren't perfect or all those things that you can kind of hear now.

At the same time, you're like, but man, they just captured it. They got the feeling. And that's my kind of goalpost now, much more than did I do it right? Did I compress the drums properly? I just want it to sound interesting and cool. And I do like things that are a little fuzzy, like instead of 4K, perfectly clear.

There's some bit of imagination that you have to fill in, I guess. And that sort of stuff.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (11:13.179)

Right. Well, also it's, it's kind of campy, right? You're, you're creating this vibe that has like, it harkens back to an older time where things were actually cut to tape. And, if there are some things that are imperfect in the mix, it's by design, right? Wink, wink. whereas if everything is just like polished and everything else, there's nothing wrong with that. There's a place for that. But if there's been one, you know, side good benefit about.

AI music and all this stuff is like now there We want people to be flawed. We want people to present themselves as they are warts and all Cracking voice and all you know, and I think there's gonna be just increasingly more and more demand for that Unfortunately, we also live in a world with social media. So you're gonna have to try and cut through the algorithm for people to hear it But I also don't think that music is necessarily created

Brian Funk (11:55.148)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (12:13.235)

to get the most number of clicks and likes and things like that. I've played a lot of music, making the presets for those apps, just sitting right here, just playing with sound. It's like I'm not really playing songs, but I'm shaping the sound, right? And then I'm creating songs for demos and stuff like that. And I'll tell you, that fulfills the musical need just as much as...

Brian Funk (12:35.788)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (12:41.019)

recording something and trying to sell it or recording something and trying to beg people to go stream it so that I can earn pennies. So yeah, there's I think I think that's another important thing in this is is sort of not just using other people's motivations for why do we create in the first place, but instead like deconstructing it and saying why do you create and then it's even helpful in

reverse engineering that, if you can look at the outcome and you can steer your motivation towards it. So what I'm sort of saying is you're in games, it's called the wind condition. So you're trying to change the wind condition. So one way that that happened, I, my daughter's nine, I go out and play tennis with her. she has endless energy, right? So, but sometimes I'll get tired and I'll go out there. And one day I just decided,

You know, every day I get to go outside and play tennis with her. It's a great day. Right. So it sort of changed it. There was no longer this focus on, I'm tired. This, the days are endless. But instead it was like, it's just a reframe, right? We all reframe. And, I think that one's really powerful for music, especially in a time where there's so much music that people aren't necessarily sitting around to hear your next song.

They're not waiting for me to create an app that's going to fulfill some need. I created an app that was released a few days ago, then Roland just created a monster app yesterday, then Reason just created a new app today. We're inundated with music and software and everything else. So I think, as we've always said, the art is in the process. I think also the rewards are in the process.

Brian Funk (14:37.356)

I think so, right? For your tennis example with your daughter, I'm sure you're not going out there to win, right? The winning condition is not to defeat your daughter in tennis, right? Okay. Okay, there you go. But yeah, just the fact that you get to do that is cool. That she wants to do it still with you is cool. That you have the opportunity to...

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (14:45.813)

Now.

Well, I don't think I would win anymore. So I had to change the win condition. That's what I'm saying.

Brian Funk (15:06.834)

is great, it's a great way to spend time and you're both lucky and fortunate to be physically able to and to just enjoy the process of it is really nice. I like that concept of the win condition because more and more I think it is just showing up, experiencing it, doing it and I get a lot of what you're saying about making the demos and stuff.

I maybe put more pressure on myself to finish songs and take ideas to completion, but a lot of these like jamuary things, for instance, you know, you got a lot of ideas and some of them might have legs, but some of them are just nice to stick behind the little clips I make for this podcast that I put on Instagram and YouTube shorts. And it just kind of serves as the background music for that. And I'm like, cool, like now it's alive and it's out and.

I don't really have to feel bad about it sitting on a hard drive anymore. That's enough for this particular piece of music.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (16:11.174)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (16:15.975)

Yeah, I mean, would be, it would be disingenuous for me to say that I didn't also want to release more music because like I've said that whenever I look back at my past of I don't wish that my music sounded better. I wish I'd just release more music. Right. And I think that's the case now, but I've, get so focused on making YouTube videos or finishing the next app or just

working on whatever things that you just defer, defer, defer, right? And eventually you'll get to it. which, know, I'm going to, that's something I wanted to ask you about because you, this is like my full-time gig, right? Like I'm working on apps. I'm working on YouTube videos and stuff. You've got, you've have an adult job. so how are, how do you really balance all these things between, because I mean like,

Brian Funk (17:04.971)

That's usually how I call it, my grown up job.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (17:13.437)

You wear so many hats that we probably can't name them, but let's go for some real quick. I do. It's got toe jam on it. yeah. Yeah. Heck yeah. Represent.

Brian Funk (17:17.343)

You have a hat on, I don't have a hat on. It is ToeJam, nice. I think one of the first sampling things I ever did was sample those drums from ToeJam and Earl.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (17:30.57)

Oh really? It's got some funky bass lines in it too, you know? I would say you sample the drums. You know, there's a, if people want to go down the internet rabbit hole, you can search for Dr. Washington. He has this person. Now I don't know if we're going to leave a link to it because it links to like a mega fire site where you can download the thing, you know, those sites are not always the most official, but he created a,

Brian Funk (17:35.753)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (17:56.363)

yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (18:00.903)

basically all of the Sega games dumped the CISX files so that you can load those into something like DeX so you can have all of your all of like the old Sega Genesis games because there's FM synthesis happening on Sega's chip the YM2612 but it's a four operator instead of six operators so you can pull it off with DeX DeX is just kind of overkill for it

Brian Funk (18:11.659)

cool, cool.

Brian Funk (18:18.72)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (18:31.403)

Nice. Yeah, I've got this contraption you hook up to the actual Sega Genesis. It's a cartridge and you can load those in there. I've got to look into how to do it again because it's been a long...

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (18:43.657)

Yeah, oh, oh wait, can load this, you can load the SysX patches to, also I've never heard anyone say this word. I don't know if I'm saying it right or not, but I know it. Okay.

Brian Funk (18:50.441)

you can load

Brian Funk (18:55.027)

That's how I say it, CIS-X. That might just be what I thought it said. Yeah, it's... Man, I gotta remember what it's called right now. It might just be like...

I don't know, it's a cartridge type thing or it's actually, maybe it's even, might be in the control socket. I kind of look at it.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (19:17.501)

Yeah, I think I remember whenever Saga Synth came out there were some pictures of it at the time and so

Brian Funk (19:23.839)

Yeah, that's how I got a lot of those sounds. And I was able to get like, you know, the bass part from Streets of Rage 2, you know, the sound, not the melodies or anything, but then I would sample the sound of it and Sonic the Hedgehog, like certain sounds, know, pad or something. And then you can play that pad, you know, in the Saga synth. And I did a 16-bit Ableton Live Pack.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (19:43.93)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (19:54.057)

with all that stuff.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (19:55.614)

Yeah, that's your podcast intro music, isn't it? From that?

Brian Funk (19:59.05)

Yeah, it is. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, OK. You know what you're talking about.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (20:02.057)

Yeah, Check this out. Alright, so this is, I've said I've been doing some tinkering. I made this little guy. This is called micro dext. Or is it called mini dext? It's called mini dext. It's called mini dext. This thing is a TX8 something. It's the one where it's like the DX7, but there's eight of them. Right?

Brian Funk (20:29.354)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (20:30.077)

So basically engine-wise, it's using Dext, the same engine behind Dext, except for you have eight instances of it. Yes, Dext is.

Brian Funk (20:36.745)

Yeah, that's free VST people can get, right? So we'll put that in the show notes along with all this other stuff that you're telling us about.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (20:46.057)

But yeah, that's another way that like I use that to get some Sega sounds right By using loading in some of those ROM packs I created some like ROM carts for Sega stuff like by going through all of all the video games and just getting the best Sounds it took forever. I mean that's part of whenever you're making sound packs is like you're just in mired in

Brian Funk (20:53.397)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (21:14.813)

gigabytes of sounds and you just go through it like one after another just like me and You know, and then finally find stuff fortunately FM sensitive stuff. It's it's pretty Unique sounding so you kind of know if you have something right away there or not

Brian Funk (21:22.293)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (21:32.371)

Yeah, I've got this right next to me too. It's called Mega FM by Twisted Electronics. And it's, yeah, it's a, I think it's got two of those chips in there, the YM2612s and you know, you can play chords on it and everything. But it is, I will say for like FM synthesis, it's nicely laid out how to program, but it's so...

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (21:38.139)

yeah.

Brian Funk (22:01.678)

easy to just get these really harsh, like painful sounds. It's tough to find things that are pleasant. That chip is just like unhinged. It distorts in this like really digital. And there are some Sega Genesis games that like you listen to the music and you're just like, my God, like so like just chainsaws running around.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (22:07.359)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (22:15.045)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (22:26.866)

Right. Yeah, so that's the difference, right? So you're listening to the actual chip, how it's as opposed to being an emulation of it, because they have emulations of all of these different FM synth chips, because the arcades used a bunch of them too, right? And it's cool to sort of go down that rabbit hole and see what all sounds are where. And then even once you get into the PCM samples, which are the audio samples, they were

Brian Funk (22:55.636)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (22:56.232)

they had a different bit depth to them, right? And so they had a different sound. Things would still, that's why it sounds sort of, the badness sounds nostalgic to it sometimes. Like if you're playing, which one, Link to the Past, you know, like in you're in the woods and it has like the little pad sounds. If you had that on a modern synthesizer, you'd be like.

Brian Funk (23:07.548)

Yeah. Right.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (23:24.23)

what would I use this for? But the fact that it comes from our childhood, it's like, if you experience that, you're like, that's instant nostalgia. I want that. I want more of that. And I think that's what a lot of this like sound pack design comes down to is trying to evoke a feeling of being a child and things like that. One thing that I found though is because one of the sample packs I made was like a tape sample pack running things through different cassette tapes.

which I know you've done, have you found though that sometimes it's like we're more nostalgic for what we think tape sounded like versus what tape actually sounds like?

Brian Funk (24:06.036)

Sometimes, I mean, there have been times I've made things on tape and VCR tapes and felt like it doesn't sound enough like a VCR or it doesn't sound enough like tape. you know, it's hard to tell. So then, like for instance, on some of the tape packs I've made, I've got a layered instrument rack where you've got the thing I sampled and the sound, and then there's another layer and it's just the hiss.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (24:21.447)

Right.

Brian Funk (24:33.532)

And that's just a volume knob you can turn up and down because sometimes you're like, where's the noise? I need more of that. But sometimes it's how you record it. If you, I tend to like to push the tape a little bit by giving more volume to the tape. So it sort of saturates a little, but when you do that, you don't get as much of the hiss because it covers that noise floor. But if you record it at a quiet volume, then you have to turn everything up to really hear it, which makes the hiss come up too.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (24:33.736)

Yeah, yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (24:40.86)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (25:03.534)

So there's this funny choice you have to make. Like, do I want to get that saturation or do I want to hear the noise of the tape in there? you know, sometimes you don't even get to choose just the way the tape machines work. You just get what you get.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (25:21.382)

Right. Well, and then, mean, usually doing something like that, you're like running through a bunch of presets you already have ready, right? And you might be doing one note per octave or you might be doing two notes per octave. usually it's ones that you least would expect sound good. And sometimes if it's a really noisy tape, you do want to raise that noise floor or lower that noise floor, not have as much noise.

Brian Funk (25:47.252)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (25:47.721)

And then sometimes you'll have something that you think is big and beefy and you put it in there and then once you listen back to your recording, it's like, meh. You're like, where did the girth of this sound go? You know, and it just isn't captured. Also has to do with the quality of tape recorder that you're using, you know, like I'd love to get like a little reel to reel thing, but the, with what I was creating, I was trying to do sort of the, the little shoe box tape recorders to get like,

Brian Funk (26:07.24)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (26:17.118)

Yes, rectangle thing, yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (26:17.502)

the extra bad tape noise. One of the ones I used was, I don't know if you know this or not, one of the packs I went to an arcade at this guy's house. So this guy has an arcade collection. He lives on the East Coast. The biggest arcade collection of pre-80s video games on the East Coast. And so I went around with him. His name was Scott and the name of the arcade is

wieners and losers, can actually stay at this Airbnb and play the arcade, all the games in it. And so I went around with him and he was just like, you know, playing the games and I put this up to the speaker on each of them. And so I had like actual arcade sounds that I could create a sound pack with. that was very early in this process of after I talked with you last, at this point,

Brian Funk (27:02.952)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (27:14.346)

The the app was going to be an arcade synth And then just over time everything has changed Also AI came out right and that's that's been a tremendous change in sort of the development space but I'm I am kind of happy to say that I put a Lot of sweat equity into this one. So this isn't like AI vibe coated app in the future

Brian Funk (27:17.95)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (27:41.271)

I probably will be using AI more for coding. And that's sort of where development, it's created a fissure, right, between people who are pro-AI and people that are anti-AI. And unfortunately, it's like polarizing and there's not a lot of space in the middle, you know? Whereas I kind of am in the middle. Like, while I see it as being a useful utility,

whenever you combine it with domain knowledge. So if you already know how to program and you're using AI, then it can be really powerful. But I'm also aware of the fact that it's trained on stolen data. There's a whole generation of junior developers that aren't getting jobs. There are people that are putting out AI slop and the environmental impacts, right? And all these things affect, they don't affect people uniformly.

One way that I was affected recently, which is, know, in my tiny little fiefdom is whenever I tried to submit my app, I had to wait two weeks for it to be approved. And they said that the app review times have gotten super backed up because of all of the AI apps that are, they're getting inundated with. So it's like, yes. Yeah.

Brian Funk (28:58.643)

That's like with the Apple Store, or whatever they call it now. They call it the Apple Store now, or they call it the iPhone? iTunes? It's not iTunes. App Store, right? It's the App Store. Yeah, OK.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (29:05.482)

They call it, I think, App Store. But I think so much it's the App Store that they like, they have a copyright over it or a trademark or whatever. So you can't call your App Store the App Store. They are App Store.

Brian Funk (29:16.297)

Hmm.

Yeah. There's an app for that. Remember those commercials? There's an app for that. So.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (29:24.86)

Yeah. But yeah, I don't want to dwell on AI for too long, but I will say it especially affects people who are getting affected by generative AI. And some people with coding, kind of, there's a weird arbitrary line that people draw for it right now where they'll say, if you could have created the code on your own, then it's okay to use AI. But if you don't know what you're doing, then it's not okay. And

To me, that just feels kind of like still gatekeeping a little bit because whenever I was learning to code, I was self-taught, right? And this was like 15 years ago. I was going on to developer forums and I, you know, get berated by people who know 10 % more than you. That's what happens on those forums. But I'm not going to say no, you have to get berated to learn stuff because you can use AI and learn at the same time.

But that aside, generative AI is a different beast. And of course with Suno and things like that. And again, AI is the big thing that has changed since the last time we talked. Whenever we were talking last time, I was talking about how open source was so important because it was empowering people to create these things they couldn't create on their own. Well now AI is doing that. The only problem is we don't know that it's not stealing this stuff. And in fact,

We kind of think it is stealing the stuff and we're just not paying attention to it. But with music, it does feel like it's different this time, but however, we've sort of lived through this with all these different things over the years. Whenever I was in college, LimeWire and Napster came out and we thought like, well, this is it, music's worthless. Then suddenly YouTube and Spotify have all the music and they're just.

not paying anything out really to people, especially Spotify. So it's like, well, this is the end again. Then the pandemic happened and people were not going on tour anymore. It's like the service industry and performance industry just stopped. It's like, well, this is the end of the road. so somehow through all of this, we've, we've found ways forward, you know, and I am confident that's going to happen again, but an unfortunate

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (31:49.823)

byproduct of this is the infighting that's occurred. That like, if you're an artist and you're touching AI to a non-zero percent of your audience, you've sullied it. So you have a couple of options. You can choose not to use AI. You can use AI, but then just hide it. Or you can use AI and try to educate people on where you used it and why you used it.

Brian Funk (31:53.875)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (32:19.71)

and things like that, which is what I've tried to do with open source development now. I, because I am creating open source products and or projects and sharing them with people, the code is free, right? But since other people are ingesting that code into their projects, they need to know the source of the work because some people are vehemently opposed to it. just like if you gave someone of a hamburger and they're vegan and you're like,

Guess what? It actually is real meat. Like, that's not cool, you know? So part of like being transparent is being considerate. But people that are transparent about using AI need to get over this stigma that just because you used AI doesn't mean that you didn't create something, doesn't mean that it's just totally vibe coded. But unfortunately it's super murky right now. And four years from now when I've

Brian Funk (32:51.6)

Right.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (33:18.792)

release my next app, it's probably going to look totally different.

Brian Funk (33:21.897)

Yeah, I guess that's the one thing we know. It will probably be a different story. Yeah, I don't know. There's things about it, obviously, that are really helpful and nice and other things that, you know, I guess, you asked me a little while back about...

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (33:29.075)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:45.789)

balancing things. I think it's important to say I come at this from this perspective as I do have the grown-up job where that's what I rely on for survival. Anything I make off music is just the side hustle, although I think about it at least half the amount of time.

I haven't worried too much about it. for one, like, like we talked about the process, like I like doing it. So it's, you can't play my guitar for me, right? It can't make a sound. I can make a sound form, but it can't, I, I like making the sound. I like discovering it and finding it and creating it. So that, you know, whatever.

As far as the choices in my music making, I like solving the problems, even though they drive me crazy sometimes. I do enjoy all that stuff. And as you also said, I'm finding myself really appreciating more of the human quality in the music I listen to and in the music I'm creating. The next thing I'm going to release, which will be pretty soon, I've...

got it mastered and everything. thanks to Animus NVIDIUS who edits this podcast for doing the mastering. It's all acoustic music that these are songs that what you will hear is the first time I hear it too, where you're writing a song and you're getting it together and you're like, all right, let's see if I can play through it. And that's the recording that I have. it's...

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (35:38.068)

Ooh.

Brian Funk (35:41.169)

And I'm trying to think of a name for this album, something like along the line. I need a word that means like the moment a song is born, you know, the first time it comes out into the world. But that's what I'm capturing in this. yeah, like I could play them better now. could probably even, there's a few parts I might tighten up or alter and arrange slightly differently, but I really just enjoy these.

moments of when I'm in the zone with this song and like, okay, let's see if I can get through it. And this is how it's supposed to go. Whereas in the past, I might've been like, okay, well that was cool. Nice that I recorded that, but let me now properly do it. I'm enjoying that kind of stuff. And also I think I'm spending less time on social media because there's so much AI on it. it's...

making me say like, whatever, I don't even want to be on here anymore. So I'll be on like Instagram or something, is probably YouTube, I guess is the one I really spend the most time on. But I'll be watching a video on YouTube of something I'm really interested in. And once I realized that it's an AI video, it's got the voiceover and I'm like, I'd lose something. And I'm realizing the people that I follow on YouTube, it's as much their personality as.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (36:37.033)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (37:02.118)

what they're talking about. They're little jokes or little subtle things. I'm even just watching your video about the story behind, I think it was this one, the story behind Mighty Synth Sampler, where you go into this kind of like, what were you saying? I'm trying to like right now, but you kind of do this funny voice thing and you cut to different angles of you saying, sampler. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (37:29.652)

Bro, you're talking about the SuperSaw.

Brian Funk (37:32.871)

Super saw, yeah, super saw. And you go like for it. And just like that is fun, you know? And even the fact that you went into like, and this would be like having two million salt waves playing at the same time. I like that. I like the joke. I like the humor, the silliness. There's a person behind it that's really dedicated to their work. They're also not.

taking themselves too seriously, but they're passionate. That's a fun collection of traits that I really appreciate about your work is you're obviously passionate about it you do take it seriously, but you don't take it too seriously and that you have a sense of humor about it. And I might be tied into what you're saying about keeping things from becoming too precious, but all of that stuff is impossible.

through the machine.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (38:33.958)

Right, right. yeah. Well, first of all, thank you. But also well said. Yeah, you threaded that really nicely because I totally agree that it is like the storytelling and being human is the commodity, right? Is like is and and you're absolutely right that the perfectionist part comes in. mean, part of the the joking is also like make fun of yourself first so no one else can, you know, like that's the

Brian Funk (38:35.656)

I can't feel any of that.

Brian Funk (39:02.034)

Hehehe.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (39:02.804)

That's the defense tactic of anyone who's ever been in high school. So, but yeah, that AI, it can give you pointers on storytelling, but it can't actually tell the story and it can't give your unique perspective of events, you know? If it could, then they would have figured it out and it would all resonate with us, but also different things resonate differently with different people.

If I'm saying something about don't be too precious about your work and you're a slacker and you never get anything done, maybe you don't need that message. But for someone who has a, a perfectionist tendency and are so. Absorbed and just thinking about the, what they're creating and how people are going to receive this. It's like, you just got to like, shut that voice up, you know?

Brian Funk (39:42.993)

Right, yeah, sure.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (40:01.93)

And you sometimes do that by being like, this isn't such a big deal. And that's freeing. It's so freeing because then you're like, I know that there are more projects in my life that I want to get done than I'm going to get done. And that has to be okay. But whenever you are have like sort of that hat on of like, okay, I just, I need to get this thing done, this thing, and then I'll be above water. It's never going to happen. You know, I

Brian Funk (40:16.925)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (40:28.01)

I felt like once I released this app, like I was going to be done and then immediately jumped right into stuff, you know? And then I'm thinking about the next thing. I'm thinking about sound packs, which was one of the big things I want to talk to you about. It's like making sound packs. And what I love about what you've done with sound packs is we're all little sisyphuses, sisyphetuses pushing our stones up the hill, right? And, uh,

Your stone has been sound packs, man. It's been sound packs. It's been Ableton. It's been this podcast. And at least from the outside looking in, it's like you've, you've, I'm going to mix metaphors. You've refined the diamond, but you haven't changed course. And I feel like in my career as a do all the things I've just changed a lot. Like I was

In Nashville, I was a guitarist. That was my whole thing, playing guitar for people. Then I got into software development, creating apps. Then I got into game development, which while I was making apps, game development is totally different from other stuff. Then I got into the audio development stuff and I got into the YouTube stuff. And I've just sort of burned the bridge to my past self a lot of times once I get onto the next thing.

because I'm excited about it with this whole learning curve of going up synths like before I was totally in it. I'm still totally in it. But now that I've created an app that was a sampler, people are like, how can you change the DAC level? Okay, so I'm pretty naive when it comes to samplers, but I'm seeing there's a whole other world with samplers that's different from synths. And I'm kind of excited to start going up that learning curve next, you know?

Um, but you seem like you've, you've carried it with you. It's like, it's been from the outside looking in. know it never feels like this from the person, but it seems like you saw what was ahead of you and you just marched on towards it. Right? Like there was a rhyme and reason to each move with this because now how many sample packs have you released? It's like 250 plus now.

Brian Funk (42:48.967)

Something like that. But no, it doesn't feel like that from here. It feels more the way you described yourself. And I don't know, maybe that's just how it is from the inside. It wasn't a mission. It wasn't a plan. It was kind of try this thing. Oh, now I'm into this. I didn't know I was going to get into this or that or the other thing. Maybe when you look back, things sort of make more sense.

No, I guess, kind of like you, when you were describing yourself, you were following what was interesting to you, and it went into different types of developments, but you're into this development thing, and how people make the things that we use. To me, that looks like kind of your stamp. Like, yeah, that's what you're doing.

And sometimes I can look at myself and be like, I'm all over the place. Like, sure, I've been sticking with a few things along the way, but they're kind of just all these random interests that have come up. so I don't necessarily feel like that about myself.

It's kind of cool to hear that you think I do. You think I have a plan, but.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (44:04.842)

Well, I guess but part of the not being precious about things is you you don't want to take too much stock in what other people think but yeah, I think Whenever you're working all the time. I mean I imagine you You know if since you have the adult job and then you get home and you have so much output here You're probably spending a lot of time working and whenever you're just working working working you've often you're Put yourself last

Like the last thing you do is sort of stop and reflect on things. If I release a YouTube video, chances are my video file, I haven't even saved the project. Like I have uploaded the file right away and then I'm like, thumbnail. All right, let's get the thumbnail going. You do the thumbnail and then like while the ink is not even dry yet, you're onto the next thing, right? Just keep going, going, going, going. And it's like, you don't really have the time to stop and correct course, you know, which

Brian Funk (44:56.228)

Hmm. Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (45:04.19)

I'm saying it like a bad thing, but it's a good thing a lot of times, right? Because you don't want to just do one thing and stop and evaluate it and be like, how did this go?

Brian Funk (45:14.161)

Well, especially with YouTube, something like that, because you get all this data and you can look at when people stopped watching your videos, what the high points were. You can AB video titles and thumbnails and you can really leverage that and probably expand your platform and get more revenue from AdSense and whatever.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (45:16.628)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:41.914)

And you can get caught up in it too. I guess, yeah, I'm just like, I don't really want to do that. I just want to keep going and doing something. And probably that's to go back to what I'm saying about having a job. I don't have to, you know, I don't have to make sure I'm maximizing every one of these things. I can just make something else. And if I get lucky and something hits and I make a pack and people want to buy it, great. But if not, I can just make another one.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (46:12.274)

Right, right.

Brian Funk (46:12.647)

And all of these things are really motivated, I think, much like you, in that I want to explore this. So the podcast is now nine years running. And if it dried up where I just didn't have anyone I felt like talking to anymore, I wouldn't do it. It would just end. But it's like, you sent me an email, like the app's coming out. like, cool. Yeah, let's catch up. Let's talk.

I find someone here and then I reach out and I want to know what this person thinks about that or the other thing. That just keeps it going. And the same thing with the sound packs and doing Ableton Live sample packs. I still love using Ableton Live as much as ever. It's always exciting as you're discovering with the Mighty Synth Sampler. You put a sample in there and sometimes you think it's going to be awesome and it's...

it's not or it's awesome in a totally new way, there's always an element of surprise. There are certain things, I guess, about making music where you kind of know what's going to happen. If I know, like, if I'm going to boost, like, the frequency, 1K, I kind of know what that's going to be or I kind of know what it's going to sound like if I decide to compress this sound, you know, this technical stuff.

When I put something in the sampler and I reverse it and I play it at like way pitch shifted, it's always kind of surprising and interesting. And what's also surprising is like how it makes you feel when you hear those sounds. And next thing you know, you were designing a sound and now you're making up a song. So these like surprise places you wind up can only happen if you just search for what is interesting and it's still interesting.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (47:56.648)

Right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (48:07.172)

music is like that it's that infinite rabbit hole like you were saying about the guy from Koala Sampler. You can just keep finding new stuff.

I think I got lucky in making the podcast because it's this platform where it's an excuse to talk to people, right? Like, you know, sometimes it's weird to, you know, call someone up and just talk, even, even like your friends. It's like, Hey, like I was saying hi, you know, that's like weird now, but, having the fact that we're going to do a podcast and suddenly you're talking to all kinds of people.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (48:41.099)

Yeah

Brian Funk (48:49.356)

or you're going to make an app and now you're designing all these sounds because you got to make sounds for your app. And these things like feed each other in a lot of ways. Playing with a band, know, same thing like, we got to make a song. Okay. What do we want to play? I got this idea. Let's and then it happens, but it, it, there's that vehicles there and you just get in and go for a ride.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (48:59.401)

Right. Well, I think there's...

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (49:14.879)

Yeah, so we're, are getting meta because we're talking about your podcast on the podcast. But one thing that I have noticed is that there is a through line there that it doesn't matter which guest I'm listening to. They have like a similar. We're all in the same space, but looking at it from different areas. So it's like each conversation is different because you're getting a different perspective of the same picture. Right.

Brian Funk (49:19.92)

Uh-huh.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (49:44.702)

And it's great to hear from, you know, the big names, the Roger Lenz and the Jordan Rudeces, but it's also cool. Like I've listened to one today of a DJ who's also a teacher. and just hearing his perspective and what he's teaching kids, and talking, you know, doing case studies of what Rihanna is doing, because that is so not my world now. I went to school for music business, but like anything I would have learned back then is.

out the door, you know, social media was my space at that point. So there is like, it's nothing like what it is now. but I also think we, we sometimes are guilty of looking at the person who's the most famous, the, the most financially successful, and we aspire to be that person as opposed to just being someone who's in the moment and enjoying

you know, tinkering, turning knobs. Like you probably, whenever you were messing with the FM synth behind you, the little, the mega thing, it's kind of like that's in a quiet moment where it's just you playing with the device and you're just exploring. It's, and there's something special about that, but it's not monetized. And it's also not something you're sharing on social media. It's like you're just in the moment actually creating something and

whenever we're so focused on, now if you want to write a song, yeah, you gotta do the demo. Now you're gonna, you need to make it sound good. You're gonna need to make a video for it also. That's too long, you need to make a short for it. we don't have a square video? Okay, record a video in square orientation too, because Instagram likes that. And at the end of it, you've done like all the, and then you get some likes on it, like okay.

Brian Funk (51:33.03)

you

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (51:39.936)

Then you go into the gamification mode and you're looking at your analytics. Like, okay, they like, they fell off this part. Okay. I got to get straight to the guitar solo because they didn't even stick around for that. And you just lose sight of the whole point of like creating music. I think that's, I think that's another reason that we like listening to music. We listened to whenever we were growing up is because there were all these possibilities then, you know, it sort of takes you back to that time where.

Brian Funk (51:51.791)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (52:09.653)

playing guitar and jamming out in front of the mirror, you're just sort of dreaming about those things, but you're still just having a fun time in your room learning guitar, just going up the learning curve. And I hope increasingly so, as it's harder for musicians to make a living in music, that they can find rewards from that and that they can somehow change that to be their win condition.

I went and played tennis with my daughter today. I made some synth presets today. Maybe those can be the things that lead to your fulfilling life. And if you don't become Kanye West, that's okay. He's not my goal person, but I've seen people who are like, I want to be, you know, it doesn't have to be him, just any big name celebrity. They want to be that person, have that level of fame, have all these people love them, you know? And,

Brian Funk (52:38.277)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (53:07.687)

Another thing, whenever I was a musician in college, I would look at all these other bands that were famous, quote unquote. They were bands that were just like, I think you have a tendency to always look ahead of yourself. Who's like on the next rungs ahead of you. So while I was in like a post hardcore band, I would look at the other bands that had made it. And a lot of those bands were done like after that album, whatever album it was that I was in love with in the early 2000s.

They were kind of done. Some of them are coming back now on like nostalgia reunion tours, you know? But I think we get sort of wash, we get wrapped up in what other people's values are and we don't like stop and reflect on what our own values are. And then you don't realize that you can create your own values, right? And you can formulate them to where like,

Brian Funk (54:02.126)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (54:05.705)

You can say that every day that I play music is a good day. And so then you start playing music and you feel satisfied with that. You can do the same thing and you can say, man, I'm playing music every day, but I'm not as famous as this guy over here. need to post more videos. you get just, you know, you're trying to feed the algorithm instead of just focusing on you and your limited time on this earth to create something cool. You know?

Brian Funk (54:34.223)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (54:35.101)

And yeah, we hope to make some money from it, but God, that can't be the goal. It can't always be the goal, you know? Like, you just, you know, in the UK, they have something that we've lost here in America, and it's a thing called hobbies. We just don't have hobbies. A hobby becomes a side hustle. you can knit pretty well, or you can bake pretty well. You need to start selling that stuff, you know, to make money for it.

Brian Funk (54:57.157)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (55:03.551)

What if you just enjoy baking? You know?

Brian Funk (55:06.693)

Or you like baking? Are you any good? You know, you play guitar, are you good? Do you play out? you like, are you making, like all these, we do that a lot to whatever hobby people have. Oh, you like to paint? Do you do anything good? Like, have you ever had an art gallery? Like all of a sudden it has to be justified with all of this. And you mentioned like playing guitar in the mirror when you were a kid and imagining, you know, what you can do.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (55:10.675)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (55:36.112)

You're only imagining those high points, know, those moments maybe like on stage or something when everyone's going crazy. You're not imagining sleeping on the floor. You're not imagining being in a room of lawyers telling you that you need this or that, or executives that say they need another song like that last one. And I've talked to a lot of people that really lament the fact that they can't just play their guitar.

they have to be making it. gotta be, this is the job, this is the work. I talked to a guy recently that I work with that said he's doing photography over the weekend, but it was like an engagement thing, know, like engagement photos. He's like, yeah, you know, now I have to like make money doing it.

and I don't just take pictures. It's like I'm going out to do these photos that I've done a million times. We're go out on the golden hour and we're gonna do all the same poses. You lose that sometimes. I've had some moments with the guys in my band where we're just playing and we're kind of like, you know, we don't have to do this and it doesn't matter.

if we are ready for the show or we get, we have our goals of like recording the song by then it's like we got to do it however we want. And, maybe that's where we have it the best possible way in a lot of ways that it's still pure and it's still only, we don't have any delusions of fame at this point and all of that. and, and I don't think we want it either.

I, some of the stuff playing in bands, like going and doing little mini tours, I had a lot of fun, but I didn't want to do that for 50 weeks a year. You know, we did like two week tours and I was like, all right, let's go home. Like that was great. We had the time of our lives, but ready to go home. You know, like I don't want to have to do that and suffer my health and not have any kind of relationships with people that are.

Brian Funk (57:56.026)

genuine and there's always a cost for all that.

So we don't fantasize that, you know, in our fantasies, it's just like, yay, all the fun of being that person and their success. And when you compare yourselves to them, you're just seeing the parts you want to see. You know, I think even when you mentioned Kanye West, you started to realize like, he's an example of somebody that has gone off the deep end quite a bit, quite a few times that he's hard to be a person to aspire to want to be anymore. But

I think there's probably a lot of those sides to just like there's for everything. Nothing is, you know, all moon lights and rainbows and unicorns.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (58:48.125)

Yeah, I just I I don't see it getting any easier to make music and to make a living with music So I just I just think finding ways like you talking about playing music with your friends and getting ready for the show I don't miss the show. I miss playing music with my friends, right? Like I I miss that time of hanging out

Brian Funk (59:04.581)

you

Brian Funk (59:10.981)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (59:15.815)

And I still love to play music, but it just looks very different now. Instead, it's for a YouTube video where I'm exploring different synth patches, whereas before it would have been, you know, really that's whenever I try to do the perfection thing too, is like, okay, I need to know all these parts. And then you, you know, what are you going to do? You're going to have a little liquid courage at the same time. And so like, it's just not who I am anymore. Like I'm not going to go.

Beyonce, I mean, it's 10 o'clock, it's bedtime, okay? I remember there were some shows that we'd play where we wouldn't start until, even the opening bands wouldn't start until after 10 because it'd be on a college campus, you're waiting for everyone to show up. The music business was so different back then because, yeah, social media wasn't a thing, but it was also like, I played with some artists. I was in Nashville at the time whenever like,

Brian Funk (59:48.451)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (59:57.317)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:00:13.831)

after Taylor Swift was big for the first time. And so there were a lot of young artists whose parents were trying to make them sort of the next hit person, you know? And so a lot of it was like playing showcases and things like that. But you're really just waiting for someone to give you your big break. It wasn't something that you could go out and grab yourself. And I do feel like that's been one good thing is it does seem like more artists are in

power to create things for themselves now. Like some of those gatekeepers are gone. But in their place, the new gatekeeper isn't a gatekeeper, it's just that everyone is doing it. You have to, right, right.

Brian Funk (01:00:56.354)

the floodgates, yeah, it's coming out of the noise.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:01:01.799)

Yeah. but yeah, I mean, I, I, so now that I've, I'm sort of gotten done with this synth, the sampler app, I want to start making these sound packs, but I want to get back to making music too. And it's not going to be like what it was before. It's probably going to be like vibey lo-fi stuff that is just chill that if I'm doing live streams or something, it can be in the background. cause that's what I listened to. It's what I want to make. And it's also.

Again, it's another one of these like interesting learning curves to go up to. don't, if I pick up my guitar and I start playing right now, it's gonna be a bunch of like blues shred licks. And I'm just, I'm over that stuff, man. Before the internet was what it was, I was a great guitar player. And then the internet came out and you're like, maybe I was good for my town, but.

Brian Funk (01:01:53.398)

You

Brian Funk (01:01:57.509)

There's thousands of seven year olds that can run circles around you now.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:02:01.311)

my gosh, especially on the keyboard, right? I mean on the guitar too, but keyboard has been a different beast for me. I've literally learned how to play it, creating synth patches, just sitting right here sort of playing stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's how I've learned stuff about synthesis too. It's been through coding it and then Matthew will put some kind of new feature, like he'll add cross mod in one of his new synths. And I'm like,

Brian Funk (01:02:05.305)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:02:14.18)

That's cool. But a cool way, actually, right?

Brian Funk (01:02:30.371)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:02:30.923)

Ooh, what does that do? I can create a bell tone with it. So I love that stuff. That's just a great way of just discovery by just messing through all those things.

But now that this app is out, I don't know what my next chapter's gonna look like, but I hope it's not constantly sitting in front of this computer. Like, I love the work I do. I'm also 43, I'll be 44 later this year, and I just feel like if I don't go out more mountain biking, just go out in the world more, I mean, maybe even take this thing out and create

sample packs with it. That's what I really want to aspire to do. Like I would rather do that than be Kanye West. Kanye is going to be my running gag.

Brian Funk (01:03:23.492)

Well, there is a good way to, it's a good way for you to kind of marry the two, right? Like you get outside, but you've also got this musical mission with you. You know, you got the, the, the field recorder and you seeing what happens. You've got your app now where you can drop your samples in. And, that's a cool way to go about it. So I.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:03:37.237)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:03:49.216)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:03:51.277)

I guess like that's another one of these human things, right? That you can combine your interests and see almost like the way people combine genres where you can bring this out with you and you'll get inspired in different ways.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:04:10.793)

I want to do that, but I also am hoping that I have this thing set up eventually where it just empowers other people to create stuff. So then I can just like, I can just be a fan of what other people are putting out, right? so that they can do, they can experiment with sound and stuff like that. Before the AI boom, I was making tutorials for developers, like showing them how to do stuff with audio kit and I was making open source projects. This, that stuff's just gone now.

Right? Like you can still make tutorials, but people are not going to tutorials to learn stuff. They're going, they're just headed straight to Google or headed straight to Claude or whatever. it's not to say there's not value in that stuff anymore, but it's just like its utility has greatly diminished.

Brian Funk (01:04:57.838)

Well, you got to give Claude and AI something to source from. yeah, doing your part.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:05:02.827)

That's right. Yeah, I'm feeding it and it really does like It's interesting because you can you can hand it your own documentation for stuff and you can say follow just what I have here So then it's not really pulling from these external sources You're really just like feeding it with these type parameters and that always does better than if you say Make me an action figure and it could be anything, right?

And then it spits out He-Man and you're like, no, I wanted it to be a Centaur. Why didn't you do that? You know, but you find there's sort of a feedback loop and a lot of times with it encoding the, the, it's not the AI that's the problem. It's you are the problem because you aren't giving enough feedback to it. You're not giving clear direction because it's just a dumb robot. It's a dumb robot that knows everything, right? But you need to give it, you need to steer it in the right direction.

Brian Funk (01:05:37.891)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:06:01.099)

but I don't know the AI stuff. It's not going to stay like it is right now, but I'll tell you, it's some of that stuff I was saying about gen AI and how people hate gen AI. It's spilled over into the development space now. like developers, if everyone was using it responsibly, like a, an expert touching AI, then it would be different. But there are people that don't care about their work. They'll just generate some slop and they'll.

Release it and then it just kind of It dampens the whole thing for everybody. It makes people that hate AI hate AI more it makes people that use it as a tool Just want to distance themselves more from no, I I don't I don't make slop You know and but I will tell you without naming names in the audio space The biggest audio developers I can tell you are using AI

from the biggest framework for making audio, the head guy from that, to the largest open source synth, those people are using AI. And unapologetically so, one of them has been developing so long he said like, if you're gonna criticize me for using AI, let me see how you arrange your punch cards. So he's going back to the Fortran days.

Brian Funk (01:07:27.812)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:07:30.685)

And I guess if you've been developing long enough, you've probably seen all these new things come in and sort of change the game over time. But ultimately, I think what's important and what hasn't changed if you're using, no matter what you're making something with, is you have to be empathetic to what pain point you're trying to solve for your users. And I think we get caught up in

hey, I'm gonna create this cool thing that's gonna impress people rather than what's the problem that I'm creating a solution for? Because that can be the wind in your sail again. That it's like you start thinking about, in my case, trying these people who had contacted me saying I wanna make a sampler app, I wanna make an app just like yours, and it's like, well maybe I'll make an app where you can put your sounds in it. Then you don't have to make the app.

Brian Funk (01:08:27.543)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:08:28.053)

then you can focus on doing what you do well, which is being a sound designer, right? And I can do what I do well, which is sitting in front of my computer.

Brian Funk (01:08:33.08)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:08:38.083)

Yeah, we do find ourselves running into a lot of other things to solve problems, you know, that we have, like even just, I mean, like I've got a camera here. I never get involved in what a camera does and how to work it, but I'm trying to solve the problem of getting stuff out there about the music and the conversations we're having. And so you wind up going there.

I kind of wish I did have an AI that would just like be a good camera for me and I didn't have to think about it, you know, like, cause I don't care. All right. That's not my interest is not in the photography aspect of this. Not, it's just not my interest. know, photography is amazing. think anyone that pulls out a camera in 2026 and takes a picture when you've got a phone that's really good at it. I think that's really a cool thing to do.

That's art in there, just making that decision to take a camera, you know, when you could just, you got one in your phone. yeah, like we do go in a lot of these directions. for someone that wants to be able to put their own samples in a thing, like your app or any app,

that they don't have to build it themselves is a cool thing. So that's a great service that you're providing and I'm sure it's gonna unlock a lot of creativity for other people.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:10:12.768)

Yeah, yeah, mean, was specifically people wanted to make apps that were powered by AudioKit. So that's the software that's behind all this. AudioKit, yeah, so Matthew Fetcher is with AudioKit Pro, not to be confused with AudioKit, the audio framework. So the two are not the same, but yeah. So it's...

Brian Funk (01:10:21.251)

And that's the Matthew we keep talking about Matthew Fetcher

Huh.

Brian Funk (01:10:38.635)

Okay.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:10:40.564)

I've kind of like tried to differentiate the two, but every time I do that, it keeps coming back to the point where somebody made a sample pack for my app and they put it inside of their AudioKit pack with like all the AudioKit Pro stuff. And I was like, well, it's not an AudioKit Pro app, that's, get, I can see the confusion a little bit. I do think that like part of the revenue from the AudioKit Pro apps goes to support AudioKit, the framework.

regardless of like who developed the app. So there's some kind of split that's happening there. but just like a few months ago, Ari, who's the other, he's the guy who started audio kit and kind of co-founded it with Matthew. I think what Matthew did is he, he brought Swift into the equation and he worked with Ari to create their first sense that they made. so early on in the development of audio kit, he, he was totally instrumental with it.

And now he's instrumental with it, but in another way. Like he's not committing code to the code base so much, but he is releasing apps under the AudioKit Pro name, which is then generating revenue to keep the whole ship afloat, you know?

And that's my summation of it. It may be slightly different from what I said, but suffice to say the two aren't the same. But whenever I made my original Overdrive synth app, I had used AudioKit as the engine. And so whenever people wanted to create apps, was, that was my point of reference is like, okay, I'll teach people how to make AudioKit synth apps. And so that's the differentiator of this particular sampler.

is it's a sampler built on top of AudioKit stuff. So it's almost like you get to become your own Matthew Fetcher and make your own AudioKit Pro app, because it's using the same filters, it's using the same reverb, all this stuff that's built into the AudioKit framework, which then ties to other open source libraries like Soundpipe and things like that, which is a DSP library for all these various effects.

Brian Funk (01:12:58.413)

Hmm. It's a cool app. I do want to talk about, I know you're, you don't want to be too salesy and all, but I think this is an important point. said this before we started recording. I mean, creatives are kind of notoriously, anti self-promotion and you know, if they feel cringy, it cheapens it. They're not sales people, they're artists and all. So, I'll.

I'll help steer that part of the conversation that it is a really cool app and it's nicely laid out. It's simple to use. It's on iOS, but also you got it on your Mac too, your computer. Is it just Mac though? Because I think it's AU3. I'm not sure how that works.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:13:39.244)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:13:45.769)

Yes, it's AUV3 and AudioKit in and of itself is built on top of Apple software. So if I were to try and make it cross-platform off of Apple stuff, it would be a big headache. So that's sort of the advantage to it is it's easier to get up and running because you're using AudioKit, but you are stuck just to Apple's ecosystem, which for mobile is okay because Android doesn't have the concept of a plugin yet. Right. So.

Brian Funk (01:13:52.653)

Okay.

Brian Funk (01:14:09.472)

Yeah, but.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:14:15.872)

That's fine. But yeah, you lose the Windows users and Linux users. everything I have is Apple and I'm on Mac. I'm not like an Apple fanboy by any stretch of the imagination. Part of the reason that I have all their stuff is because you have to pay the Apple tax. if you want to see if your stuff works on the latest device, you got to buy the latest device. They're not going to give it to you. But...

Brian Funk (01:14:40.844)

Hmm, right.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:14:44.296)

Unfortunately, this AUV3 thing, was, whenever we did the last podcast, it was a relatively new technology, which is basically just plug-in, the plug-in format, where also you have a UI built into it and everything else. And it's just an extension, so you still have your app as it's standalone, but then you can use a plug-in view of it in whatever your DAW is. And...

Brian Funk (01:15:09.11)

Yeah, and it's cool. And I like that you have just the effects of it. So you can just use the effects you have in there separately to process audio, almost like some synths allow you to route audio through. this is just that, which is nice, and just the sampler end of it. So it's very convenient. It's easy to use. And it's cool that you can have it on your computer and then on the go.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:15:13.269)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:15:33.803)

Yeah, the idea is to make it like a full utility belt, like the Batman utility belt, where, you know, because there is like the MIDI controller you can use. Like I'm working on it currently, but I'm adding like an arpeggiator inside of the MIDI processor that you can use in AUV3. So now everyone will have like a free arpeggiator when they have the app also. And then they don't even have to use it with my app. They can use it on their own apps that they have, you know.

Brian Funk (01:15:40.481)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:16:03.542)

That's sort of like the beauty of this whole AUV3 thing. So rather than looking and trying to think what is the next app I want to release, I'm just going to keep experimenting with this and just keep adding stuff to it, which is counter to what I did previously. Previously, I was kind of just like releasing stuff and then I, you know, okay, that's done. What's next? What's next? I've, I've released over a hundred apps, like in the time that I've been a developer.

Some of them share a similar code base, like I did a bunch of radio streaming apps, which are basically the same except for you have a different curated list, you have different icons and all that stuff. once you know how to handle streaming properly, you can use it in all these other internet radio apps. But I had friends all along the way who would just have one app, and that would be their main app.

A buddy of mine made this app called Pocket Yoga. What's up Sergio? He got featured by Apple. They gave out his app at Starbucks, like a free download thing for it. But that has been his one app and he's just stuck with it. That's what Merrick has done with Koala Sampler. I think he'd released a couple other apps, but he's just devoted all of his time to it.

Brian Funk (01:17:04.45)

Thank

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:17:28.086)

That's what I kind of want to do with this is give it some time instead of just like releasing it and looking on to what's next is just see how I can like work on this and evolve it over time. And then really just listen to people and hear what do they want? Because basically what I've done with this app is what the advice I've told people not want to do. I say don't spend too long on an app. Have your idea be as small as possible and then just

have that one feature and shine on it. And for some reason, I don't know, stupidity, I was like, I think what happened is I thought this was going to be an easy app to make. I'm going to make a sampler and people can put their sounds in it. Well, I used the wrong engine at first. I was using Apple's sampler they had built in. So I had to get rid of that. So then I started using this Dunn sampler, which is another sampler inside of AudioKit.

Well, doesn't have what I needed, so I needed to sort of fix that. And then you just keep on adding things and adding things. One of the late additions I added was I was like, man, I wonder if I could get unison mode to work. And it changed the app. I was like, this unison mode sounds great. Well, guess I better go redo all the presets again. You know? And so it's like just each thing just kept on pushing it further and further. I think once I realized I had to redo the presets,

Brian Funk (01:18:46.244)

You

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:18:53.354)

That's when I was on the bike ride listening to your podcast and I was like, I'm going on Brian Fung's podcast. It all comes back to that. But, I loved it. The, the, reception from people has been great. You know, I've, I tried not to get too tied up with it, but I've also had enough experience now that I knew people were going to need things fixed, like right after the launch. The, the first apps that I released, I'd never really thought about that.

You know, and also it's different when it's music apps because there's a really strong community for mobile music apps and people are hungry for it. People that have a feature requests and things like that. Whenever you launch a game, people just accept it as a game and they like it or they don't like it. Whenever you do a streaming app. Yeah, they expect it to work, but the feature requests they are, can you put a sleep timer in it? You know, it's not something like this where someone's like,

Can you invert the polarity of the envelopes? And you're like, I don't know what you said, but I'm going to ask Claude about it. No, I'm going to Google it. But then it becomes the whole thing where you're learning. You're learning with it. And that's how I'm learning about the sampler now. I've realized that I created in my mind what I thought a sampler was without looking at all these conventions and

Brian Funk (01:19:58.38)

Okay.

Brian Funk (01:20:08.512)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:20:20.604)

You know years and decades of works that have gone into samplers. That's why people are like let me change the bitrate. Let me change different ways. So I assumed with a sampler whenever you play a higher note if you have it just sort of pitch shifted it's almost like if you're playing a tape faster, right? Like it's just going to play faster. Apparently there's different ways of interpolating the pitch changes so you could keep the attack shorter.

Brian Funk (01:20:40.769)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:20:50.57)

and then have it, or you can have the sound be the exact same length, but it's just pitch shifted. That stuff's magic and I'm not gonna add it, but I'm just saying those things exist, right? And so it's another one of these fun things where as people request stuff, you start learning about it and then you have more of appreciation of sort of this whole ecosystem. Whenever I got into the synth stuff, I had...

Brian Funk (01:21:03.969)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:21:18.26)

I didn't, I knew I liked the sound of synths, but I didn't know that I loved a Juno, right? I didn't know how the J8 is different from, or like a Jupiter is different from a Juno. And that's been one of the greatest things about making these presets for Matthew's apps is I get to like go up the learning curve with that. And whenever I receive an email from him with like a new beta he's working on, it's kind of like Christmas morning.

like this is awesome and the best part is if I find bugs I don't have to fix them

Brian Funk (01:21:47.627)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:21:53.568)

Yeah, that's cool. It's a great way to learn about that stuff. And also sometimes not knowing, you know, like maybe if you knew what you were getting into, you might've been like, that's too much or you might not have gone that way or you might've gone the completely traditional way and done something that's been done a million times before. you get

the kind of advantage of not knowing in a way instead of it being a disadvantage.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:22:25.612)

Right, and I feel like the new unknown thing is gonna be diving into this sound pack creation world. Because I've done it some, right? But I haven't, certainly haven't done 250 plus packs. So, that's gonna be really fun. Even whenever I did the Jamuary, one of my favorite ones was I had a pine cone and I just flicked one of the quills on it. Is that what they're called? Anyways, just made like a

Brian Funk (01:22:41.505)

Huh.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:22:55.38)

sound but it had like a slight pitch to it and then you just start pitch shifting it and you can play an actual song with it. It's amazing. I want to go into Walmart. I want to record all the toys in Walmart. I want to use the EBO thing I was showing you. I want to do like all these things. So it's like it's a whole new thing of like I think it's good to not get too carried away and just jump into the next thing, right?

Brian Funk (01:23:02.815)

Wow, that's cool.

Brian Funk (01:23:09.503)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:23:23.958)

But at the same time, I'm pretty excited to just explore and do more playing with sound because that's what I've been doing all along anyways. if music comes from it, that's fine, but I'm making music in the moment, you know, whenever you're making a sample pack, you're playing through it, you know, in that moment, you're not, you might not be sharing that eventually you, you'll share like a demo video of it or something, but whenever you're creating the instruments and you're finding the loop points,

Brian Funk (01:23:43.67)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:23:53.993)

It can be monotonous, it's also like, that's part of the joy, right? It's like you're an explorer sifting through all these different sounds and you're finding things that are just totally surprising to you. And if the things that you're capturing sounds from have a story in and of themselves, then it just adds layer of depth on top of layer of depth and it's just like, it's really cool.

Brian Funk (01:24:19.593)

Yeah, I agree. And that sounds like a fun adventure for you. There's so many factors, like I'm thinking of you being in Walmart, sampling things, you're going to have background noise, right? You're going to have people shopping. You might get a cash register beep in there somewhere or somebody laughing or coughing. And sometimes that's an awesome touch. It becomes this life behind the sound that

adds character and personality and you've captured a moment that you're now playing around with and making music with. So even just the room you're in, the reverb of the room, the natural kind of sound, all of that stuff, it gets involved in your sounds. you know, there's even your microphone, like you might have your nice field recorder one day and then another day you might have

just your phone or you might have something else and everything matters. And it's not even like it's better to be in that sterile environment with some fancy Neumann mic because sometimes there's just nothing to it anymore. Half the reason you're sampling things is because it's going to be this unique thing and this experience. So I'm often like, don't care what's happening in the background.

you know, whatever mic I have or sometimes let's find a really cheap mic to record this.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:25:54.347)

Yeah, yeah, and I've got, that's the one thing is I'm not, I'm good at creating sounds once they're in the box, but we'll have to see about capturing sounds. I do have some good mics. I mean, I've got the Rode NT1A. I think everyone has that mic. It's a good mic. And then I got the Joe Rogan mic. And this little guy, it served pretty well. The good thing about this is you can be incognito with it, right?

Brian Funk (01:25:57.195)

Okay.

Brian Funk (01:26:23.86)

Yeah, your phone too. No one.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:26:24.012)

I'm probably gonna go. Oh, yeah the phone I'd You know we talking about YouTube. I watched this guy record I don't know what the the professional mic is like a Neumann or something He's using that but then he was also recording just the built-in mic from his phone and Whatever post-processing he did with it. They sounded almost identical, you know, so it's like

Brian Funk (01:26:42.826)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:26:48.692)

I think I know what you're talking about. He does like kind of pop punk. That guy, right? With the glasses. I like that guy. I forget what his channel is called right now. But I saw that video. Yeah, and it sounded really good. Like I could barely tell. I could tell they were different, but I wasn't even say one was better than the other. It's just.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:26:53.014)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:27:10.036)

Yeah, if we're talking about the same guy, he I mean he I watched like another video and he was talking about side chaining compression like for making synthwave stuff I don't know man. Anytime I learn like a little piece of knowledge like that that isn't something you just come about from your own experimenting. It still just feels like Like it's Willy Wonka and you're finding the golden chocolate bar, you know, I kind of I love that stuff

Brian Funk (01:27:36.2)

Yeah, right.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:27:39.853)

So that's been cool. I still have stayed sort of motivated with it and kept positive with it. Even though I was kind of like, you got to push things out of your mind sometimes because sometimes I would look at my friends that were releasing apps and I'm still just kind of stuck here working on it. And you do tend to feel a little bit of jealousy. You're like, I wish I kind of, it's like good for you, but kind of here I am.

I think you got to sort of push those, push through those things. Like, cause it's not that that isn't a true feeling and you shouldn't listen to it, but it's not serving you at least not in the way you want to, you know? So part of it is if you can look at this community and the people around you that are releasing stuff and you can truly feel like their wins are your wins, then it just,

It feels like it's all ships rising and I do think that's probably more consistent with reality than whatever this formulation of reality is in your head, right? Like no one is looking at your work and thinking, this is good, but it's not as good as his, you know? You're the only one comparing yourself to other people, you know?

Brian Funk (01:28:50.579)

I think so, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:28:57.6)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:29:01.76)

I think so. And it is building a community and interest.

It, I don't think it's, it's not a zero sum game. It's not this, winners and losers type things. everybody can benefit from that kind of stuff. And I, the stance I like to try to give myself is if someone else does it, it's like, Ooh, it's possible. You know, wow. can do it when people finish songs even sometimes.

I'm just like, God, thank you. Like it's not impossible. Cause sometimes it feels that way when you're making music. Like, I just can't figure it out. I can't do it. And it's not possible. And then you see someone do it and you're like, okay, all right. So celebrate their wins as just evidence that a fellow human can do it. So can you.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:29:54.764)

Yeah. man, see that's such an empowering perspective to think that, you know, and it's a choice, right? But I think, I think you make, you make that choice like enough times and then that becomes your de facto response that you're like, you are happy for, you see someone makes a banger YouTube video and you're like, yes, I'm happy for them. man, that one's popping off instead of being like, I wish my video was popping off, you know?

Brian Funk (01:30:02.876)

This is choice. A lot of it is choices.

Brian Funk (01:30:23.669)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:30:24.245)

Like that stuff, it's just not going to serve you, not in the short term, not in the long term. And it's also, it's, it ignores the fact that a lot of this is just chance and repetition, you know? you know, one thing, all right. So we're, we've been going for a little while. I want to, I want to walk away with stuff. So I'm turning the microphone back onto you. I want to, I'm, I'm a tactics guy. So we talked a little bit about like how you,

Brian Funk (01:30:36.564)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:30:47.072)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:30:53.885)

like you manage your time and stuff, what does that actually look like? Like when you get home from adult job, Mr. Funk, when Mr. Funk gets home, what does it look like? How do you, fill in the blank, how do you?

Brian Funk (01:31:11.358)

Well, you know, I got my dog, I take care of her. I try to do something every day. And something. It's not always a lot. Sometimes I have more time than others. Having the restraint of I have to spend a good portion of my day at work is actually pretty helpful because I'm...

Like, okay, I only have a few hours, you know, it's going to be dinner soon. There's going to be bedtime coming up. so let's try to make the most of it. And sometimes it's also, you know, coordinating it with my wife, what's going on with her? What are we doing together? So it, those limitations help a lot. Cause it says to me, I have to do it now. It has to happen now. If I'm going to do something I try to keep, you know, my, I've like lists of to-do lists.

things and stuff like that, that I want to work on. And some of it's different projects. Some of it's, you know, just the next step in a project, but it's not really much more organized than that. Like I want to move forward today. Like I do think of it almost like it's almost like exercise. Like, you don't just stay as fit as you are right now. And then you work out in a month and you're more fit or

You know, you're either going one way or the other. So I try to make sure at least I take a step, at least a step. And I can feel good about that. And it's not so much like I have to do two hours, I have to do 20 of this or finish this song necessarily, but at least progress it. And just sort of trust in the long game of it that if I do that consistently, stuff happens, things get done.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:33:06.093)

So you say the long game, but it feels like you're playing four games at one time, right? Because you're Sound Pack Brian, you're Podcast Brian, you're creating music Brian, you're creating your next YouTube video on whatever, and then somehow writing a book. Just like all these things, it you move forward with each thing a little bit each day? Or is it like, I'm going to finish this to completion, then I'm

Brian Funk (01:33:06.207)

I

Brian Funk (01:33:12.563)

Sometimes, I mean...

Brian Funk (01:33:29.841)

No, it's more something.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:33:33.909)

then I can turn my attention to the next thing.

Brian Funk (01:33:36.71)

It's more something. So like I tried to do a podcast every two weeks. So I know that, okay, got kind of the plan, you know, of what needs to get done, what I need to get ready. And then if I'm to make some clips or something, I know I got to do a couple of those, schedule those out and band practice usually falls on a certain day every week. So that's sort of decided for me, right? Then

doing packs or doing like our live meetings with the music production club happens. It's scheduled, right? So this meeting is scheduled. So that was easy. Today was easy. I know I'm going to talk to you at this time. When it's not on the schedule, I prefer to the to-do list and say, okay, well, I want to, working on these songs. I want to get that going. I want to finish this. I got to send emails today. Sometimes it's stuff like that even.

But yeah, the sum of it, having something like the podcast that I try to do regularly and the music production club is like a regular thing, that helps structure those decisions a bit. Having the band practice a weekly thing that puts it into a structure for me a bit. And then the other days are more where I can do whatever I want, kind of pick from whatever needs to be done.

Brian Funk (01:35:08.689)

It's not really anything well crafted other than just something every day. know, and to have, guess, those little things that are regularly occurring events, like the podcast, music production club, you know, that helps add the structure. So that was kind of a smart move on my part.

Um, in the beginning, even when I started doing packs, I wanted to do one every week. So that's, I knew I had to do one every week. So I have to work on it. That became a lot to do. So after like a year or so of that, I slowed it down a little bit, but, um, it's having like a club or this usually, it's usually kind of like a monthly cycle. Um, you know, that stuff.

is helpful because it reminds you it's built in deadlines.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:36:06.923)

How do you feel about...

Okay, so I get the paying for sound packs in the music production club. but, but what about paywalling the community? Does that stifle growth at all? Or is that even a factor? you, do you think about it? Or is it one of those things where people are paying to be a part of the community and to get the sounds and therefore, how do you think of that?

Yeah, sorry, I just realized I'm not asking full questions, but that's my M.O.

Brian Funk (01:36:42.803)

Well, think it's all like a

No, I've thought about this a lot and I do think about it and consider it. It's kind of like a whole package thing you're buying into if you join the music production club, right? We're going to have meetings twice a month. There's our Discord community. There's packs that come with it. And really anything that I create will go to the club. even if it's when I did the book, it comes with the club. That's just part of it. So.

Um, opening the community has been a thought like, like maybe the discord, you know, but it's also kind of a special thing too. Um, it's at a point where I can go in there and actually listen to the music people post and people share. And when we do January, I'm giving everything pretty much a listen, you know, as best I can.

And then I'm adding it to our playlist so that we're all collected and together on SoundCloud and just because SoundCloud makes it easy to do a playlist. If it was open, maybe there would be more people and maybe I would get more people to subscribe and pay ultimately. But then it's like I'm not able to be in the community anymore, right? Like because there's a limit to that. And then when we have our meetings, if there's

When we anywhere five to 10 people come, you know, sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more. but it's very personalized, you know, if it was 30 people, that changes it a lot. It's like a classroom too. Like when I teach, when I have these small classes, it's nice. You really get to know everybody. When it's a large class, it's instead of these individuals. Now it's a crowd, right? It's one crowd instead of.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:38:39.339)

Yeah, when I've certainly seen some discords where it's like, it becomes the moderator's discord. It's not really the person who created it anymore. And that thing, for better or for worse, can take on a life of itself, you know? And so it doesn't, which doesn't necessarily stay true to, you know, you want to be involved with these people. I think that...

Brian Funk (01:38:49.053)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:39:01.695)

I've never had an issue either with like there's someone that's a problem. You know, like someone's mean or cruel or inconsiderate or if you open it to everybody, you know, then you're going to have people that just are going in there saying what they want to say and leaving. They're not really part of it. It could be

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:39:07.21)

Right.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:39:24.205)

Well, you know, they have that thing where they have the thing where they say if you spend even a dollar, then you're going to be more interested in it. You know, you've got skin in the game, whereas like you could be giving away the same thing for free and at the same time bring more people in, but it devalues the experience for everyone at the same time, you know. But if I've paid money and I'm a part of it, then I want to get my money's worth, you know, so I'm going to.

Brian Funk (01:39:34.173)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:39:47.004)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:39:52.874)

Interact and be a part of that community and that's the cool thing about sort of this new creator space We're in is people get to create their own rules if you just want to have a patreon where you're doing Streams to those just that crew you can do that or if you want, you know it yeah, we get to make our own rules and It's kind of whenever the only thing you're relying on is social media. Then you're just playing by the algorithms rule

you know, and you don't really have as much control over it. so yeah, I was kind of just curious about it. I wasn't, I don't really think that it needs to be free or paid. I was just curious in the sort of the choice with it because like I have a discord, it's free and I'm the only person that posts in it. so it's one of those things where like, I have people post on YouTube videos and stuff, but like creating a community on those various spaces.

It's really difficult. Like I'll post something on the AUV3 Facebook group and it'll get a lot of attention because people are there for it. Then you post the same thing on threads or blue sky and it's, you just wonder why did I even do this? Why did I waste the time doing that, you know? I think it's out of habit. Fortunately, it doesn't take a lot of time. But I think with you saying like the time you spend with stuff and how you schedule things.

I think it's one of those things where it doesn't feel like it's magic to you because you're the person doing it. Just like how Eddie Van Halen probably just thought he's just playing guitar. This is just how I play guitar, right? So because some of that stuff, it's just not, we're all different when we all have different things that pull us a certain way. I have tunnel vision. I will like not eat.

I will just be focused on a task until I can move it to a certain space where I'm happy. And usually if the perfectionist part of me is talking, it's not going to be happy no matter how much work I put in. like maybe my daughter is at a, a run club or something at the end of school. Well, that means I get a few extra hours of working. So I'm just going to like kind of push on and on. And, uh, what I've always wanted to be able to do is to

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:42:14.153)

jump between different things to do a YouTube video for a while to then work on app development or whatever else. And I have done a decent job of that, but it, to me, it feels like you're trying to keep a bunch of balls in the air and something's getting neglected. One of the balls is over in the corner and it has cobwebs on it and you forgot it existed and you turn over and look at it you're like, man, I hate that. Unfortunately, that, that one is usually something like my wife saying, go out and trim the bushes.

Brian Funk (01:42:31.71)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:42:44.533)

And then it's like, sorry. It's avant-garde, you know? But yeah, so where do you think you kind of, I guess you've done it enough. That's what sort of reinforced the behavior. But did you, who helped you formulate that originally? Did you go with like the getting things done route?

Brian Funk (01:42:51.452)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:43:09.39)

I love that book actually, getting things done in the whole format. That's my to-do list is set up in that format actually. It's like, yeah, your in tray or kind of ideas. then it's like next actions projects someday maybe. Right. I have that in my list and I have like in, my like projects, it's like music production podcast. And it's like, okay, I got

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:43:29.483)

Yeah, exactly.

Brian Funk (01:43:39.325)

these things that I'm trying to work on or packs, you know, and someday maybe I've got Ableton Live pack ideas. I've got ideas for the music production club, but then next action is like, send this email about, the update to the club or release that video. You know, the, the next action thing is there's a verb, you know, write the blog post for your new pack.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:44:03.692)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:44:07.597)

Mmm.

Brian Funk (01:44:07.838)

So it's a very specific thing. I find that very helpful. That was a real big eye-opener for me, that book, actually. It just helped me categorize all the stuff in my head, all the ideas, and take it from just long to-do lists and ideal lists to, like, this is the thing I'm working on here, this is the thing I'm working on here.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:44:30.379)

Yeah. He's like, you don't do a project. You do an action or a task, whatever it was. I think that his writing style, Paul Allen is that the name? David Allen, he's, he just is directive based. So he's just telling you what to do. Sometimes you want someone to tell you just what to do, because sometimes you want to be the manager. Sometimes you want to be the worker bee, right? And if you've already made that decision and you've, like you said, you're having a verb.

Brian Funk (01:44:36.371)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:44:40.978)

David Allen, yeah. Allen.

Brian Funk (01:44:47.228)

Yeah, it's very business. Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:45:00.435)

of single action item. It's kind of like you can look at that and do it. What do you do? Okay, so another book is that talks about the resistance. What's that Malcolm Gladwell? What do you do when you feel the resistance whenever you've... press filled, sorry.

Brian Funk (01:45:13.202)

That's Stephen Pressfield. That's War of Art. Malcolm Gladwell's good too. But Stephen Pressfield, yeah, the War of Art. Resistance.

The force that is actively trying to prevent you from doing your creative work is pretty much how he defines that. And I love that concept that he identifies it, names it, calls it out so you can say that's what it is. That is, it's just like he says, it's every single day, every single minute you're facing the resistance.

It gets me all the time. I do all my dishes before I make any music. I clean things. I get all the chores away. Chores are easy, right? You know you're going to finish the dishes. You can do that. Like, I don't know if I'm going to make a good song or a good sound or a good podcast or anything creative. Like that's the question mark. but I guess I try to identify, try not to think about it too hard.

You know, don't question things, just try to go. That kind of having like lists helps me with that, pick something and go. But I guess I also kind of accept it as part of the process. And one of the great things about doing this podcast is everybody deals with this stuff. And not that I want to wish my suffering on anybody, but...

every single person I talk to struggles with all this stuff. People that have it down, that have won awards, and you know, every marker of success you can think of still struggle with everything. And when that comes up, that's sort of like, that's what makes it glorious when you get through. Right? Like...

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:47:14.285)

Yeah, I think for the people who do have it all quote-unquote figured out A lot of times the things they're saying are aspirational. It's not necessarily what they're doing You know, it's that rules for thee not for me So Yeah, man that's it's interesting that so many people because I a lot of times whenever I'll listen to some of the podcast things everyone does have such a defined

Brian Funk (01:47:18.301)

But

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:47:44.13)

perspective, I guess you always kind of feel like everyone's got it figured out and you're still figuring it out, right? Just like I said, whenever you were, it looked like everything you had done was with a rhyme and a reason for getting the sound packs and like every piece of this puzzle just fits together so nicely, right? But I guess there's had to been times where you've just had like

an entire week or longer where you just can't put the proverbial pen to the paper. Do you feel like you've encountered some of those burnout or have you recognized it enough to where you can veer off early enough?

Brian Funk (01:48:20.114)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:48:29.753)

It might be helpful to have a few different things to turn to, to avoid the burnout, right? Like a couple, if I'm tired of doing the podcast, I can do something else, right? It's not the only thing. If I don't feel like writing a song, can, whatever, right? It's, but yeah, like for me, I guess that comes in the form of like, I feel like,

it's pointless, you know, like the world is full of issues and problems and here you are tinkering with sounds that you made with like the spoons you found in the closet, you know, like what are you doing you idiot? Like those thoughts, you know, and then it all always like comes, if I follow that it'll start to become

everyone's going to find out you're a fraud. You know, they're to realize you're just some idiot. And then they'll find out at work, you're a bad teacher. You'll be on the news getting fired. And, you play out these like worst case scenarios. um, but it's just all thinking. It's just thoughts. You got to like turn that movie off in your head and put a different movie on.

Brian Funk (01:49:53.295)

Notice it, guess, is noticing it is the key. When you're getting there, just realize like, I'm being stupid. Like, that's not real. That's just a story that's going on in my head.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:50:05.761)

Hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:50:07.545)

It's not easy to do though. I you get into those feelings and it, but a lot of times for me, it's the music that pulls me out of it too. You know, like I'll listen to music then in that case, and then I'll feel good about it and realize like, this is important.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:50:18.647)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:50:26.325)

Yeah, I tend to like having little projects. I'm moving back into the little project thing because I think you get a little charge with each thing that you get finished and you can actually finish something to completion. Whereas whenever it's sort of like a slog and you just keep working on the thing, then yeah, there can be some dark times that you sort of go with it. I also think, you know, it's not going to be uniform for everyone, but as you get older,

just stuff from your childhood starts coming back, different things. You're like, I'm ready to work right now. Why am I thinking about this trauma? Okay, now I'm just gonna focus on work. And then it's like, you can't. It's like, you can't focus on the work that needs to get done because there's some other part of you that's like, yeah, you need to handle this other thing first. That doesn't always happen, but I feel like as I've gotten older, that'll sometimes happen.

I think it's also a byproduct of, what did you say? You said something about getting your feelings. I like that saying. Like sometimes you're your feelings, you, you get, you, it's a part of your body. There's something physically changing in your body when you're feeling something and you really have to like shake it up. think having, trying on different perspectives, again, getting out from behind your computer, going into the touching grass.

Things like that can be really powerful to sort of change your perspective. But for you, it really sounds like your routine is sort of like the guiding factor amongst other things. I've seen that with myself sometimes that if I have, back to Matthew, he says he'll set a launch date for an app before the app is done. Because if he doesn't have a deadline,

Brian Funk (01:51:54.727)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:52:21.717)

He'll just keep working on it forever. And yeah, I can attest to that. So for you, when is your quitting time? When are you like, it's non-negotiable, I'm not working past nine or 10 or 2 a.m. or whatever it is.

Brian Funk (01:52:42.252)

I mean, I kind of got to get to bed for work, right? I got to get up pretty early in the morning for that. So I have that little thing on your phone that tells you it's like bedtime. I forget what they call it, but you know, it's just like makes a little chime. That happens at 9 45. That's like, all right, time to start getting ready. I mean, it depends on the day. You know, if I'm really rolling, like sometimes you just got to go with it.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:52:47.289)

yeah.

Brian Funk (01:53:10.31)

You know, but it is, it's nice to turn it off, you know, to say like, okay, I'm done for the day. did something. Cause otherwise you find yourself deciding to relax, maybe like watching TV or something. And you're not, you're feeling guilty because you're not doing the work. And now you're really doing nothing. Cause you're not even relaxing. You're not even doing the work. You're just, you know, brooding in this like.

hatred of yourself and your lack of predictivity. So it's nice to just to say like, I'm okay, I'm going to stop now and tomorrow we'll pick it up again. And now I'm relaxing without the guilt of it.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:53:57.101)

So where, for you, where's, sorry man, I totally turned it on you, but I said I was gonna turn it on you, sorry, not sorry. What's the reward for you? Is the reward in I have completed a task and shipped something, or is the reward in the work itself?

Brian Funk (01:54:03.15)

Yeah, it's interesting to think about actually.

Brian Funk (01:54:20.664)

I try to get the reward out of the work itself. And a lot of times I do because when you get into it, it's one of those things where you kind of forget about everything and you forget about your problems, what was bothering you, whatever you're going through. And then when you come out of it, you sort of snap out of the world of making music. And then you see things from a different angle. There's a couple of things I like to do like that, you know, that you forget about.

you know, exercise does that for me a bit, where then you come out of that, you're tired, and you're like, yeah, was mad before. Then you're like, that was kind of silly. Like, what was I mad about? You know, you see it differently or, yeah, that's, I guess.

Brian Funk (01:55:10.853)

I don't know. I kind of forget what I started saying here all of a

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:55:14.635)

Yeah, I think we'll like the reward being in the process trying to do that

Brian Funk (01:55:18.514)

the reward. Yeah. Yeah. But I love riding to work the next day and playing what I did in the car, hearing it, you know, you know, I'd love that. I love, I got all that stuff on my phone and I listened to my phone on shuffle a lot, Apple music shuffle. And every once in a while it's like something I did. And sometimes it's something I want to hear and sometimes I just skip it. But, yeah, I enjoy that. I like listening to the music I made.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:55:25.052)

yeah.

Brian Funk (01:55:48.806)

going back into it.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:55:50.071)

Are you protective of your time when you're creating to not watch YouTube, not click on the latest What's Happening in an Iran article or whatever else?

Brian Funk (01:56:04.294)

Well, I try to be a little bit, yeah, YouTube is a dangerous one because you can justify that as being productive because I'm learning, I'm figuring out how to use this thing or I'm deciding if I should buy this or that. So it's tricky. But I tried, I don't, I try to stay out of the news a lot and the social media as much as possible. I have a timer on the phone for that. I only get like an hour.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:56:11.746)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:56:33.284)

I think 45 minutes actually of any sort of social media or news.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:56:38.998)

And then what happens? Your phone explodes?

Brian Funk (01:56:41.238)

It tells me you've hit your limit, and I can ignore it if I want, but usually that's enough to shame me into putting it down.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:56:49.876)

Hmm. I really like this man. It sounds like you have some guardrails in place that really protect against the monkey mind, right? So that you can, it helps keep you focused. It helps keep you on task. Because ultimately that's where the reward is, is in doing the work, right? As opposed to just being endlessly dis-

Brian Funk (01:57:15.674)

Well, it's almost like, it's like accepting the monkey mind, maybe. You you you can't fight it. Like in my mind really does feel like there's a bunch of monkeys pulling levers and buttons all the time. I think everyone's does. that doesn't mean you have to be whatever button gets pressed. You know, like meditation helps with that, you know, like paying attention to how your mind drifts.

Like the whole type that I do is where you're just maybe breathing or whatever and you just notice that like, now I'm thinking about like squirrels in the winter. And now I'm like having this like fantasy of what I would do if I ever got told I was messing up at work. like, you you find yourself in these weird stories and then you're like, that was just, that was nothing.

Nevermind, back to the breath. And every time you remember that you've drifted or you notice that you drifted, it's like, that's the win. It's not to clear the mind, it's to notice that your mind likes to go off on its own little world all the time.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:58:16.888)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:58:33.622)

Yeah, I did the the Headspace app for a while and I really enjoyed it at the time but a lot of these habits just don't stick or enough time passes that you're not doing the thing.

Brian Funk (01:58:38.94)

.

Brian Funk (01:58:46.414)

Yeah, it's a practice, know, it's not a destination, I guess, just like everything. You have to pay attention to it.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:58:54.264)

Yeah.

Well, I come from a long line of over workers and if you're not overworking and whipping yourself while you're doing it, then you're going to feel bad. So you keep the bad away by working through it, which obviously as I'm saying it, I realize that's a bad perspective to have, but those things are really hard to break and it becomes like your default thinking. And whenever you're working, you're not spending enough time to actually stop

Brian Funk (01:59:01.34)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:59:25.23)

and listen to those voice. You're not observing your own thoughts. Instead, you're just making the decision, but it feels like you're on autopilot. So I guess it's...

I don't know what I, I think it's just sort of different ways of looking at it. Like one, one way is I want to try and set up a system where I can work and it can be effortless and I have a schedule and things like that. And at the same time, I need to step away from work and I need to like really just think, do some soul searching and see like, are you doing what you're doing? Because whenever you're, you're stuck working,

The last person you're thinking about is yourself, you know, you're thinking about your dog. You got to take your dog out the dogs barking Okay, you gotta bring the dog in here thinking about your family and their needs, you know, and it's just so easy for me to like not go on a bike ride today because I Instead I can get more work done if I don't take that hour out of my day, you know And so I think it's just a balancing act

It's, it's constantly is, but a big piece of it is just managing your own expectations and realizing that if I don't get everything done, that's okay. You know, it's good enough as things are now. And if someone is, is put out by that, that's okay too, because you don't realize it, but you're pitting yourself out more. And then eventually you will be of service to no one. Right. Cause you're going to be totally worthless.

Brian Funk (02:01:08.997)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:01:11.566)

useless to yourself and others. it's a...

Brian Funk (02:01:11.611)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:01:17.88)

Do you still do meditation? Is that a routine thing?

Brian Funk (02:01:21.891)

I try to, I got an app I use.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:01:26.798)

Spotify? No.

Brian Funk (02:01:28.443)

No, Sam Harris is that waking up. Um, yeah, I like, he doesn't say a lot in it. He just kind of tells you, I'm take some breaths. And then he goes away and then he pops back in and he's like, and just think about it. And then you realize you're thinking about something totally different. His voice kind of just pops in to remind you that you're meditating, you know? And, um, uh,

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:01:32.396)

Hell yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:01:48.705)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:01:55.244)

I think it's different for different people, but what I found with the meditating is that then just like if I was feeling stressed later on, I could just focus on my breathing for a second and like instantly it's like it flips a switch and kind of puts you back in the relaxed state.

Brian Funk (02:01:57.947)

you

Brian Funk (02:02:09.509)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that, I try to get some kind of exercise every day, something, you know, I don't ever, I don't usually go too wild, but, um, just something, you know, even just a little bit. And most of it's just like body weight stuff or a quick jog or, but, that helps a lot. I think, you know, just kind of knowing that.

Trying to take care of myself helps.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:02:44.213)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:02:48.96)

Is that a early morning thing or is that an after work thing?

Brian Funk (02:02:52.557)

It's usually after work. I would love it to be in the morning, but it's just too early. So some time after work and sometimes I'm like rushing to do it real quick before dinner. Sometimes I have a little more time and sometimes it's like I space it out in my music making. Like I'll do a little music and then I'll do like pushups and you know, whatever, just back and forth. I find that

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:03:06.733)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:03:17.302)

Yeah.

Do a few pushups, do some arpeggios, and just switch it back and forth between them.

Brian Funk (02:03:25.307)

It's funny, but it does help. Especially if you're at the computer making music, you're sitting, you know, and you're trying to make exciting music. Like, here you are, hunched over the keyboard. So getting the blood flowing helps me be there for it and actually feel like the stuff I'm making.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:03:38.814)

yeah. yeah.

Yes.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:03:48.751)

Yeah, around my neighborhood, there are these mountain biking trails that I can just go out of my garage and then just be on the trails. It's amazing when I do it. But then there's, there's usually whenever I do it, I have to get home, take a shower, then I have about an hour before my daughter gets home. um, my day basically is like three 30. I'm kind of done for the day because then my daughter's home and it's like, it's just playtime.

Yeah, so I have a lot of hours in the day to get stuff done and if I Know I'm going on a bike ride if I got up earlier than I could get more work done But I I don't know I don't think the answer is getting more work done. I think we feel like that is the answer Derek Sivers has

Brian Funk (02:04:18.446)

Yeah, that's cool.

Brian Funk (02:04:37.572)

Hmm. Yeah, we want to go on these marathon things all the time. Like I need to do like all this time, but we kind of underestimate how much the little drops add up in the bucket.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:04:50.582)

Yeah, I think you can also though spread yourself too thin if you're thinking of I need to do YouTube video then I need to do this like I have a list of a few YouTube videos that I've told people I was gonna make for their stuff and It just kind of piles up and it weighs on me if I ever do sponsored videos That becomes a huge stressor this one. I did this with PCB way

Brian Funk (02:04:55.61)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:05:19.374)

And this is sponsored by PCBWay. And anyways, they made me a little PCB with it, so that was cool. But I knew I had to make a video for them. like, it sort of took some of the fun out of it. Well, it's not that took the fun out of it just like raised the pressure. And not only that, I needed to figure out how to fabricate PCBs. So, it's cool, now it's done.

Brian Funk (02:05:27.898)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (02:05:41.786)

Okay.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:05:44.878)

But I 3D printed the enclosure, I got these little buttons, I programmed it, I soldered it, designed it, and I'm glad I went through it, but it certainly was a lot of work for a small YouTube video where basically all I got were the free PCBs out of it, right?

Brian Funk (02:06:03.322)

Hmm. Yeah. I've had the situation where do sponsored stuff or, know, can leverage your followers or whatever. those things always weigh on me in such a different way. mean, it's awesome. They sent me this thing. They're going to pay me too. It's like an honor, you know? And I, but it's like, now I got to do it.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:06:20.952)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (02:06:34.52)

That's when it's work. Now I've turned my music into work. There's just certain things, I guess, that I've kind of realized, like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that thing or this thing. There's other things I still enjoy and I want to do. So having that understanding of, like, I'm just not going to do that. Like, a sponsored video I just don't want to do.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:06:37.196)

Right.

Brian Funk (02:07:03.214)

can do if it's something I believe in, could do some kind of promotion podcast thing or some kind of team up. Maybe it can be something like, that I can give to members of my music production club. Maybe that's an angle we can do so that it's works together with what I want to do. But yeah, I used to write like reviews. used to do like descriptions of products and things.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:07:22.776)

Right.

Brian Funk (02:07:30.008)

And it was cool because yeah, like you got the thing and you got the money and, but that's not, I don't want to do that. That's, that's a different type of work.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:07:41.429)

Right. In this, in the mobile music space, usually people will just offer you promo codes and then whoever you're sending this stuff to will or will not make a video. You really don't know until after you've launched it. But paying for reviews and stuff like that really doesn't happen too much. I don't think until you get over a hundred thousand subscribers or something, right? Because, and then there's

And then those people can ask a handsome sum for their videos if they're making them. Like on my last app I was doing, I contacted a YouTuber that had, it was like a big synth YouTuber that has like 800,000 subscribers. And they were like, yeah, I can make a video. It'll be $3,500. It was like what they quoted me. And I was grateful that they told me a price.

And it probably is worth that if you have the right conversion rate and if you're into analytics, I do neither of those two things. So it was kind of like, well, that's, it's a cool data point, but I appreciate it. But yeah, I can't do that. But yeah, what I've found is most useful if you are a creator or a musician is you kind of got to create your own platform. You know, you got to like,

Brian Funk (02:08:53.316)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:09:07.346)

You need to have your own audience that you're growing on YouTube. And how do you do that? You do it by not shining a light on just yourself, but you shine a light on other people in the community. You know, then it's like, it's not really about reviewing someone else's app. It's more like, Hey, here's this cool free app that came out. Let me just show you what it can do. And then you, you go from there and people are appreciative. Sometimes my favorite comments to read are whenever someone just says, thank you.

Brian Funk (02:09:27.012)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:09:36.428)

And there's nothing else. They don't even have a profile picture or anything else. You don't know where that person is in their life, but they cared enough to just even say thank you, you know, which is nice compared to the other end of the spectrum where like someone's like, you know, they're going to dog you for any random thing, which is fine. But, I guess it's again, it's, it's where you choose to put your focus, you know? And I like to think of the person who gets value from something and

Brian Funk (02:09:46.03)

Right. Yeah, that's cool.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:10:05.73)

They don't have a platform of their own or maybe they aspire to do something or maybe they they're just grateful that you spent your time to Shine a light on something for them You know Unfortunately, a lot of these creators who are just like we're not monetized well on through YouTube and through ads and things like that So a lot of people who don't have other income streams they just really can't make it on YouTube they have to do

Brian Funk (02:10:16.548)

you

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:10:33.698)

Patreon or anything else fortunately for me. I've had some success with my apps So that's that's what's kept the ship afloat And so I haven't had to worry about YouTube being the main thing or this new free app I've made if it doesn't make money. I mean it kind of sucks. I haven't looked at what it's earned and It doesn't really make too big a difference to the bottom line. I realize that's from a privileged position

But it's also a privileged position that I work to get to, you know? I've put the hours in on my butt cheeks sitting in this chair.

Brian Funk (02:11:05.081)

Yeah.

well yeah that's

Brian Funk (02:11:11.832)

And part of that is probably why. If you were to take that turn and just try to earn your affiliate commissions and all that stuff on your channel, now it's not your channel anymore.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:11:24.14)

Yeah. No, yeah, I think that's why this, the PCBWay thing just felt so kind of wrong to me. Not that the company's fine. The product they have is fine. It's me, like, who has a problem with, like, feeling like I'm shilling something, you know? Like, if I can present something to someone in a neutral way, then they get to make a decision, I'm fine with that. But if I have skin in the game or someone has...

Brian Funk (02:11:35.449)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:11:52.579)

purchase me to say something, it just feels so inauthentic that I, what's the point of me doing it? Then it is just like advertising, you know? And we're just advertised to so much with everything, like so much so that you'll see stuff on social media and you don't even know what it's advertising. Maybe they're just trying to grow a following so that they can then sell the account or yeah, I don't know, that's just speculation, but

Whatever it is, the algorithm doesn't really care how much money the creator's making. They just care about you staying on the site. And they're going to feed towards whatever impulse you have that, unfortunately for me, I've clicked on the YouTube drama video, so it keeps on serving it to me. So now I know everything there is to know about these people I will never meet in my entire life.

Brian Funk (02:12:48.345)

Yeah. I mean, I don't want to give the wrong impression about any of that. mean, there's a lot of people, I really enjoy their work. They're reviewing products, they're talking about features and they might have a sponsored video and they're informing me and the way they do it is it doesn't feel like anything like I'm being just a product that's a commercial I'm watching or something. And

I think all the more power to them and I'll often, if I'm into what they're doing, I'll click on their link specifically to support them if I'm gonna buy something. So there's definitely a lot of cool ways to do it.

I, yeah, just, you know, that's, it's cool that people can do that even. Like you can be like an enthusiast and be sharing what you learned and make some money doing that and informing people in a way that feels like value and not just sales pitch.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:13:52.002)

Yeah, I think it takes a certain business savviness to be able to do it. And I think part of it is if I really don't think of what I do on YouTube as a business, right? I don't think I'm just diluting myself with that thought. It's really like, and maybe it's easy to come to that conclusion because it does earn such a small amount, right?

But what you get from it is you get community, you know, it's great that on a video in the comments, you see some of the same people and some of these people you talk to outside of it. Some of them you see on different platforms and some of these people you actually get to know in real life, you know, and you don't know what opportunities it's going to lead to, you know, so I really can't bag it for that stuff. And I agree. I don't have any problem with people doing it. It's more about having the self-awareness to see does this thing work for you because

Brian Funk (02:14:17.635)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (02:14:21.049)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:14:46.71)

Something can be the best plan in the world, but if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work, period. The best plan is for you to be on all the social media sites and engage with everybody and be posting every hour. You need to post 13 tweets a day, okay? Then you need to have shorts. Make sure you do the shorts, but you can save time by posting that same short over on Instagram. But since you've done that, and it just goes on and on.

If you do that and you feel like I just don't even want to make the art anymore, then just stop. You know, maybe you won't be as successful as you could be with that stuff. but maybe that works for someone else and it wouldn't work for you because it doesn't work with your personality type. That's a big thing I found with like, social media because social media could easily be a full-time job for all of us. Right.

For me, a lot of times it's an afterthought. It's like, I did the thing, I made the thing, I gotta go tell some people about the thing right now. How do I post again? Okay. Instagram doesn't do horizontal pictures, so I need to do something else. It's sort of like the last box you tick before you're like, okay, now I can breathe, what's sort of next on the pipeline?

Brian Funk (02:16:02.413)

you

Hmm.

Brian Funk (02:16:10.701)

Hmm. Yeah. There's like so much you can get involved with, but it's gotta be enjoying yourself ultimately, I think. Cause you can take the thing you love, like making music and take all of the love out of it. If you're not careful.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:16:29.708)

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I think I'll, I'll close on this. think I've mentioned it before, but a lot of this stuff we feel like we need to make money from. think if someone feels like they're making a piece of software and, selling it to people or giving it to them, they need to have a way to monetize it and make money. And, there are just so many other ways to live a fulfilling life. There's so many other ways to create something.

and to get rewards from it. But you kind of have to examine it and be counter-cultural to think that the maximum amount of fame and the maximum amount of money does not always net you a win with what you've done. Instead, you can just play guitar for 15 minutes and enjoy doing it. You can play Disarmed by Smashing Pumpkins.

and just sing it really loud and be like, man, that was really fun. I love that song and don't post it anywhere. You don't have to worry about getting a copyright strike. You're in your living room right now. You know, so I would just encourage people to try and find fulfillment through the crafts that they're doing without necessarily turning it into a business. If you can make some money from it, that's great. If you don't make money from it, you're not a failure, you know?

Brian Funk (02:17:37.785)

Right. Yeah, exactly.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:17:58.262)

You don't, that's a part of the whole perfectionist thing. I didn't maximize it, you know? Maybe you didn't need to. Maybe you maximize by not maximizing. Okay.

Brian Funk (02:18:09.463)

That's true, sometimes... Less is more.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:18:14.122)

If you keep saying words, then eventually it makes sense. I don't know, I didn't get there. Well, Brian, man, I hope we get to do this again, and I hope it's not four years next time.

Brian Funk (02:18:18.211)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (02:18:23.789)

Yeah, well, that would be great. You keep doing cool stuff. So there's a lot to talk about.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:18:30.018)

Yeah man, I'll actually start a podcast and then I'll have you on my not a podcast.

Brian Funk (02:18:36.151)

Nice. Yeah, well, we should tell people just drive it home. Mighty Synth Sampler is on the App Store, Mac App Store, the mobile app store, whatever you want to call it. I'll put links to it. Yeah, I I love what you're doing. I love your attitude, your energy. And I'm glad we got a chance to reconnect here today.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:19:00.248)

Well, thank you, man. The feeling is entirely mutual. I'll keep listening to the podcast. I appreciate your time. And yeah, I'm going to take some notes on some of the stuff you said. Just sort of.

Brian Funk (02:19:04.205)

Yeah, thanks.

Brian Funk (02:19:12.109)

Yeah, me too. took quite a few notes from you. So I'm thankful I got a chance talk to you again. And thankful to the listeners too. Thanks for sticking with us and enjoy your day.

This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Ableton’s Sampler.

• Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

• Ask - Participate in the discussion and ask questions.

• Do - Apply the lesson in a short activity. Get feedback and ask follow-up questions.

Join the Music Production Club and attend our meetings live.

Your Music Production Club membership gives you access to:

• My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

• The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

• Live Meetings Over Zoom - Meet with me and the MPC community online! Make music together, share tips and techniques, and give and receive feedback on your music.

• Music Production Club Exclusives - Ableton Live Packs, Templates, Samples, Presets, and more that are only available to members of the MPC.

• Educational Materials - My Video Course, Books, and Documents to help you level up your music.

• Our Online Community - Share your music with and get support from our thriving Discord community. and Monthly Live Meetings over Zoom.

• Bonus Materials - Free stuff from my store as well as gifts from some musical friends!

• Special Offers - MPC members get 50% off at my store and special discounts from music companies.

This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Ableton’s Simpler.

• Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

• Ask - Participate in the discussion and ask questions.

• Do - Apply the lesson in a short activity. Get feedback and ask follow-up questions.

Join the Music Production Club and attend our meetings live.

Your Music Production Club membership gives you access to:

• My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

• The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

• Live Meetings Over Zoom - Meet with me and the MPC community online! Make music together, share tips and techniques, and give and receive feedback on your music.

• Music Production Club Exclusives - Ableton Live Packs, Templates, Samples, Presets, and more that are only available to members of the MPC.

• Educational Materials - My Video Course, Books, and Documents to help you level up your music.

• Our Online Community - Share your music with and get support from our thriving Discord community. and Monthly Live Meetings over Zoom.

• Bonus Materials - Free stuff from my store as well as gifts from some musical friends!

• Special Offers - MPC members get 50% off at my store and special discounts from music companies.

This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Ableton’s Expression Control

• Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

• Ask - Participate in the discussion and ask questions.

• Do - Apply the lesson in a short activity. Get feedback and ask follow-up questions.

Join the Music Production Club and attend our meetings live.

Your Music Production Club membership gives you access to:

• My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

• The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

• Live Meetings Over Zoom - Meet with me and the MPC community online! Make music together, share tips and techniques, and give and receive feedback on your music.

• Music Production Club Exclusives - Ableton Live Packs, Templates, Samples, Presets, and more that are only available to members of the MPC.

• Educational Materials - My Video Course, Books, and Documents to help you level up your music.

• Our Online Community - Share your music with and get support from our thriving Discord community. and Monthly Live Meetings over Zoom.

• Bonus Materials - Free stuff from my store as well as gifts from some musical friends!

• Special Offers - MPC members get 50% off at my store and special discounts from music companies.
  

15 Time-Saving Studio Hacks

I put together a video for Global Producer Community about little things in my studio that help me get to work faster and save time.

Simple things that save us a little bit of time here and there on repetitive actions can really add up!

I hope these help you save time so you can make more music!

This episode comes with a free download courtesy of Mike!
Click here to get Mikes Mixing and Mastering Checklists, as well as his own presets for the Slate Virtual Mixing Rack plug-in.

This episode is dedicated to (not sponsored by!) Darwin Audio and his awesome vintage soda/beer can microphones: https://darwinaudio.net

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Mic Nix Productions - https://mnproductions.com.au

• Mike's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPWr4L6nQq1YGU1-JK9XLnQ

• Mike's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/micnixpro/

• Free Download - Mike's Mixing and Mastering Checklists plus Slate VMR Presets - https://brianfunk.gumroad.com/l/ycmpj

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.358)

Okay, Mike, we are on. Welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.

Mike Nikou (00:05.86)

Brian, thanks so much for having me. Really appreciate it.

Brian Funk (00:09.346)

Yeah, it's great to talk to you. I've been watching your videos, especially on Instagram is where they really seem to know that I like you.

Mike Nikou (00:16.919)

that's great man. Well, thanks for the support.

Brian Funk (00:19.436)

Yeah, well, it's supporting me as well. I think you give out great advice, practical advice, sometimes technical, sometimes philosophical. It's always great when I flip up and then you pop up on there and you've always got something worth listening to. It's great stuff.

Mike Nikou (00:21.774)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (00:37.22)

Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Now, look, equally, I love what you're doing with your podcast as well. I like how you've got a lot of the little clips that tend to come up on Instagram and that it's really cool to just see some of those little key tidbits. And it definitely keeps me watching as well.

Brian Funk (00:55.106)

Yeah, cool. Yeah, we should probably say thanks to David Paul Newell for connecting us from the Midnight Mystery Club. He was on it.

Mike Nikou (01:02.038)

Absolutely. Thank you so much to David. Much appreciated. Such a great guy.

Brian Funk (01:08.044)

Yeah, yeah, he was really happy with your work and yeah, I mean, I heard the music too and it sounds great.

Mike Nikou (01:16.514)

Yeah, David's been fantastic to work with over the years and yeah, I love what he's him and Levar are doing with Midnight Mystery Club. Yeah, I think they've got some really cool things happening and it's always an absolute pleasure to work with the guys. Love their music.

Brian Funk (01:35.416)

Hmm. That's always nice, I guess, right? When things you're enjoying the project and the work. I wonder, I wonder if you could just give us the background story a little bit. I know you've got, you know, you're not just engineer, you're not wearing that hat and that perspective. You've also come from like being a musician and songwriter too, which I think is always really nice in any, even

Mike Nikou (01:43.275)

yeah, yeah definitely.

Mike Nikou (01:57.21)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (02:04.48)

say a drummer that understands songwriting a little bit or understands any other aspect that really deepens their ability in both areas. So yeah, I'd love to just hear a little bit about the story, how you got there and how you got here.

Mike Nikou (02:18.264)

Yeah, absolutely. Look, think sound and music, I think is something that I've been obsessed with as far back as I can remember. Even as a young kid, I remember playing like this little ukulele around the house and then I started walking around with one of those little rectangular tape machines, those little portable ones. And excuse me, I used to just walk around the house just recording sounds or I'd

Brian Funk (02:40.27)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Nikou (02:47.226)

record my younger brothers having an argument and play it back to them. I was, you know, even just simple things like, you know, messing around with the microphone on the tape deck and listening to the sounds it would make if you blew into it, or if you, you tapped it against something. So think I always had a bit of an obsession with sound and I have a theory that it was like, I'm compensating for my terrible vision. I think that's, so I've sort of...

Brian Funk (02:51.0)

You

Mike Nikou (03:14.488)

have this hyper awareness hearing or something. That's kind of my theory, but I was always obsessed with music. think, like I said, as far back as I can remember, my first inspiration, I think to play the guitar was, you know, hearing Dyer Straits and Mike Knopfler. You know, I grew up in the, eighties and nineties and first time I heard like Money For Nothing. I just, you know, it really made me take

Brian Funk (03:37.998)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Nikou (03:41.729)

notice of the guitar. And I think I became really obsessed with the idea of learning guitar. And then through early school, I remember I couldn't get into the guitar class because it was full. So they went into violin because I thought, cool, that's got strings. So I'll just run with that. And I remember playing that for a couple of years, but I always wanted to play guitar. And eventually I was, and end up being sort of self-taught over the years. I mean, I played a few instruments through my school years. And eventually

finally acquired a guitar and sort of spent years and years just teaching myself and got to end of high school and class of 95, me and two school friends decided we wanted to start a band and we were really into that whole 90s alternative rock grunge thing. It's funny because once it hit 95,

It was kind of the start of, guess, what people call like the post grunge era. So we were kind of in it. It was a funny time. I mean, the music scene here in Adelaide, it was very vibrant. There were so many great bands and, and, you know, it was really hard to sort of get a foot in the door. But we were just, we were naive young musicians. We couldn't play that well. We didn't have great equipment. But yeah, we were heavily influenced by bands like Green Day.

Brian Funk (04:42.945)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (05:08.186)

Smashing Pumpkins, Nirvana. I was a big fan of The Cure as well. So there was that kind of darker sort of moody, excuse me, chorus guitar sounds. I think even at that time using a chorus pedal kind of wasn't too cool in 95, but we were kind of into that. So we were a bit of a blend of a lot of those bands. And yeah, we played a lot of gigs. I've played in many bands over the years, even played in a

Brian Funk (05:20.215)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (05:37.627)

tribute band for a while. We were sort of like a Britpop tribute band where we were playing kind of Oasis and The Stones and The Smiths and all sorts of bands and we played a lot of gigs. We got to support some bands, iconic Australian bands like Mental as anything. I'm not sure if you've heard of those guys. But yeah, we played a lot of shows and then I sort of went into the whole... Went into the blues thing sort of in the mid sort of 2000s around.

Brian Funk (05:48.685)

Cool.

Mike Nikou (06:07.578)

2006 or thereabouts. I really started getting heavily into blues Stevie Ray Vaughan, John Mayer was heavily into things like sort of Steely Dan, Boz Skaggs and a lot of that sort of late seventies what they call Yacht Rock, I guess you could say and sort of went heavily into that and that became a strong focus for me for a number of years. I started doing some advanced

Brian Funk (06:25.598)

Hehehe.

Mike Nikou (06:33.722)

Jazz guitar and things like that had a mentor for a while which really helped me And he actually is got me on to back then Cubase, which is what led me into the whole production Mixing side of things. I'd always had you know, just sort of like your basic four tracks or just you know, sort of analog style recording devices and and then yeah, he sort of showed me Cubase which was back then was mostly known for

synths and kind of just the whole production. It was a really strong production suite. I used it for mixing a lot and I, to this day, I'm still a heavy Cubase user. It's my primary DAW. I have used Pro Tools a lot over the years. I've often run two setups where I've got both Mac and PC and have, you know, Cubase and Pro Tools as an option. But yeah, that's where I sort of started getting right in heavily into the...

production side of things mixing not only my own recordings, but you know friends, know, they would send me their tracks or I'd take the laptop and we'd tinker around and I really found myself becoming heavily into the recording side of things and mixing. It was always something I was really, really interested in. I think the first time I was in a studio with my first band and we recorded like a four track EP.

I just remember the, the, just the idea of being in the studio and seeing the console and just hearing everything come together. And I guess back then, like in the mid nineties, I just remember the whole mix down thing was kind of a bit of an afterthought. I think it's become much more of a thing now, but it was kind of just something. I mean, what we did was like at the end of the day, you'd finished tracking. And I remember the engineer was like, okay, we're ready for mix down now. And I was like, well,

you know, what's, what's mixed down as such. And then once I realized that's the stage where you actually start, you know, piecing everything together and adding the reverb and the compression and all of the hearing it come together. And I remember being like just absolutely, you know, fascinated with, with that process. Um, and yeah, and to this day, I think, uh, you know, since officially starting my, business back in 2015 formally, um,

Mike Nikou (08:56.706)

and just being heavily involved in that sort of mixing and mastering side of things. It's been a great journey. And to this day, like I'm still, I just love, I love what I do. It's the fact that I get to listen to new music every day and be involved in it. For me, it's, yeah, it's not a job as such. It's just a lifestyle. Music is just something I've always done, like I said, as far back as I can remember. And it's just...

It's just what I do, I guess.

Brian Funk (09:29.547)

Hmm. That's cool. A lot of parallels to what I did myself playing in bands and same sort of influences and, yeah, not, really knowing what we were doing, but figuring it out. And even just those playing around with the old tape recorders, something me and my friends used to like to do a lot as kids. and I can remember.

Mike Nikou (09:37.05)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (09:57.085)

We, a friend of mine and I were recording these just really silly songs that we were making up. There's just guitar and he would sing and mostly scream into the little like rectangular cassette tape recorder you're talking about. But sometimes we would record it and it would be ferocious. It would, we'd be overdriving the, we'd be saturating tape, you know, and all that. And other times we record it it was so weak sounding and we, we had no idea why.

Mike Nikou (10:06.884)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (10:24.406)

didn't make any sense to us. But that started getting me interested in it. not too long after I got like a cassette four track recorder and started doing little things with that. And that's how I got going too. And yeah, it's what you said about mixing is I remember that as well. The first time we ever played, recorded ourselves in a studio was.

Mike Nikou (10:36.152)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (10:48.746)

we, our guitar teacher knew a guy that had a basement studio, which was unusual back then and around probably like 1997.

Mike Nikou (10:58.234)

Yeah, so we grew up in the same era, so I think we're a similar age, so we went through that same lineage as such.

Brian Funk (11:01.738)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (11:06.476)

Yeah, yeah, we were like seniors in high school and we were recording our CD, know, four song CD and it was so fun. Like we, we felt like we made it, you know, we were just paying this guy to use his basement, but we were like, this is incredible. And it sounded so much better than our four track tapes. Yeah, really just.

Mike Nikou (11:12.014)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (11:17.976)

It's exciting.

Mike Nikou (11:27.822)

Yeah, definitely. It's a, remember that, that sense of, thinking, you know, wow, we can only, we can only accept this kind of sound. Now, like, think once you've been in a studio and you've actually gone through that formal process and the high quality equipment, and then you sort of come back to your own recordings, like four tracks or whatever, and you're like, we can't accept anything less than like a studio sound. And like I said, for me, it was

It really just started that obsession with recording quality. think even as a kid, I think I had an obsession with like the sound of a record as well. I I listened to a lot of, you know, even things like Michael Jackson. I just think that the sounds of the records were like, man, there's just this sound, the clarity, the... And then when like the CDs became, you know, the main...

way for people to consume music. And then it was like, wow, well, you know, records and tape sounded good, but CDs are a whole nother level. then it sort of, yeah, just that obsession with the sound quality. I think that's something that's always been consistent. I mean, I remember tinkering around with the EQ on the home Hi-Fi system and learning that the smiley face EQ curve even back then, oh, that's a cool sound, you know? So I think I even, had that,

Brian Funk (12:28.372)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (12:45.599)

Okay.

Mike Nikou (12:50.97)

I don't know, just had an obsession with that.

Brian Funk (12:55.572)

Yeah, yeah, I would use that to try to hear instruments like this is like this particular frequency. I didn't even know it was a frequency. It was just, you know, one of those little sliders that you'd make the smiley face on. I was like, this is where the guitar is. And I can like figure out the guitar part a little better if I turn this one up and turn that one down and sort of isolated, I guess.

Mike Nikou (13:07.023)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (13:18.7)

Yeah. Well, I mean, I remember we had like, like a four band EQ on our home, you know, stereo system growing up. And I remember thinking, man, if I only had just a few more of those little sliders, I could, I could do more with that.

Brian Funk (13:29.836)

Yeah, right, and here we are.

Mike Nikou (13:34.114)

Yeah, and here we are. Yeah, we got infinite sliders now.

Brian Funk (13:38.356)

It gives you an appreciation though, right? Like going through that and then when you get into Cubase and you understand how much power you have because you've experienced those four tracks and, you know, kind of really simple setups that we had to deal with.

Mike Nikou (13:56.161)

for sure. And I think the challenge nowadays is to, you know, it's kind of like that kid in a candy store thing. You've really, over the years, I've learned that simplicity has so much value when, whether you're recording, mixing, or whatever it may be. think, you know, when I first started out, I think everyone goes through that phase of collating plugins and just getting everything you can get and trying everything. And, you know, it's an obsession in that respect as well. Like just,

it's infinite choices and over the years it's I've seen myself gradually just move away from so many of them and just having simple high quality EQ or something that has a very specific sound I think is more of my approach now like I'm very conscious of that whole plug-in overload thing

And if that's something I can tell anyone that's recording or mixing their own music is really learn what you're doing and why you're doing it. because there's, there's no need to just dump a bunch of plugins on something because you've heard that someone has a chain with 16 plugins and they got that sound through that method. so that's, yeah, I think it definitely gives you that appreciation having that background in where we didn't.

have the choices and when you do have a lot of choices you go through that phase of yeah I think it's just a process isn't it.

Brian Funk (15:30.976)

Hmm. Because back in those days you dreamed of, if I only had this, if I only had that, I, mean, I had a rack mount reverb and a rack mount compressor, which is actually behind me. still get the, the Alesis Microverb 3 and, and then the, 3630 compressor. And I could only either.

Mike Nikou (15:37.818)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (15:44.984)

Yeah, nice.

Wow, that's a classic.

Brian Funk (15:59.604)

run it directly through and record the effect printed. Or if I had it on an aux channel, that was it. You could only really work with it in that level. And I'm realized, you know, now years later after going through all that, trying to download every plugin I could find and, you know, navigate the dark alleys of the internet to get them all. that

Mike Nikou (16:25.443)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:29.671)

is kind of a better approach a lot of times because when you have too many things go on, you just can't suss it out in your brain. You just hear a wall of noise and mush most of the time.

Mike Nikou (16:44.41)

Yeah, and I think limitations are actually a benefit to creativity because it actually forces you to be creative. Whereas when you have too many options, you're focused more about, how can I utilize this piece of equipment or how can I utilize that plugin? And I've bought this thing and I really want to use that in this song. Whereas if you don't have any of that, you're thinking about your song, you're focused on the song and you're like, well, I've only got this to use and I have to make it work.

And I really think that, especially at the creative stage, I think when you're writing and composing and arranging something.

the less you have, I really think that helps the creative process. I think, mean, even if, you know, like if you're in the electronic music space where you've got infinite synths and things like that, I think even just limiting yourself to maybe a couple of hardware synths to, it forces you to focus on, well, this is what I can get out of this instrument. And you just...

It just limits you in that respect and prevents you from going off on tangents, which ultimately just kills the vibe a lot of the time because you're no longer focusing on the inspiration that led you to want to make the song. You're focusing on, or how can I use this compressor or how can I use this instrument or whatever it may be. I think limitations have some value.

Brian Funk (18:16.777)

Yeah, it's, I think I bought some of these synths around me for the sound and you know, have something tactile to play with. But I'm starting to feel that maybe one of the best features of them is that I don't have multiple copies of them. So I can't do seven tracks of this synth unless I commit first and then record another track. Whereas if I open up any plugin or...

Mike Nikou (18:34.074)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (18:39.46)

Yes.

Brian Funk (18:44.123)

you know, can have 32 different versions of the same synth on different tracks and be stacking them and thinking I'm making complex sounds by layering things together. And, like you said, kind of never moving forward. I've got maybe like a cool riff or something or a cool loop. And now I'm just dressing it up and dressing it up and dressing it up instead of moving to the next part, the next section maybe, or, and

Mike Nikou (19:11.705)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (19:12.873)

When I do that, I find it almost impossible to build another section because I've got this super deluxe thing going on for four, eight, 16 bars. And then the next thing is nothing. It's like a kick and a snare. Like it sounds so weak and doesn't feel connected.

Mike Nikou (19:24.346)

Mmm.

Mike Nikou (19:34.451)

for sure. And I think with modern recordings, and a lot of people have adopted that mindset of, we'll fix it in the mix. And so the concept of committing is now, it's scary to a lot of people because they want the options. They want to know that, you know, we can mangle the sound in any way that we want, and we can manipulate it. We can do whatever we want with it.

you know, with plugins or whatever it may be. And I think what often happens is, you know, they'll maybe try 20 or 30 different approaches for a particular sound and get to the mix. And they're like, Hey, we didn't quite get what we wanted through, you know, this part of the production. We're hoping you can do X, Y, and Z in the mix. And I think then you're putting yourself in a position where it's hard to be happy with the mix because you're not happy with the recording.

So my philosophy is if you are able to commit to a sound, take the time to maybe try out, if you're recording guitars for example, get the amp sounding how you want it to sound, get the right strings on your instrument, get the right pedals or whatever it may be, and just experiment there. And once you get that to a point where you're like, okay, I'm happy to hit record now.

I think there's so much value in that because if you're happy with the recorded sound, the mix is going to be even better. Like it's going to be next level again, because you're already happy with maybe what you've already got. You might even have a, like a rough mix that you're really happy with. And then it becomes, Hey, we really need to only improve this maybe by 10%. And then, but that 10 % is, is just a phenomenal level. So I think, yeah.

the concept of committing. I tell this to a lot of people that I work with that get into the habit of experimenting when you're recording and committing to a sound and get it to a point where you're like, you know what? I really, I really liked that. And I'm really happy with where that sits.

Brian Funk (21:53.161)

Hmm. Well, every sound kind of informs the next sound, right? And you're building stuff to work together. So when you do make those commitments, if I say sequence some drums and I print them to audio, I now have to make everything work with that. Whereas when I don't commit, can maybe, okay, I got a cool beat and then I, this bass is really neat, but I'm going to have to do something to the drums now to make it fit.

Mike Nikou (21:59.236)

It does.

Mike Nikou (22:07.77)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (22:11.962)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:21.266)

and then you fix the drums and your keyboard's all out of whack now. So you gotta change that and everything gets affected. But reacting to what you have, I find is, yeah, much better way as well. And you can actually.

Mike Nikou (22:29.135)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (22:35.15)

And it's very easy to fall into that wall of sound nowadays because of the infinite choices. It's very easy for things to quickly become just mush. And I think once you've done a few recordings and maybe you've had a bit of experience, I think you start understanding what true dynamics is and what creating space means.

Once you start learning that the kick drum occupies this particular space in the frequency domain, the guitars are going to take up this sort of area. The vocals need to sit in this other area. So think once you start learning about where things fit in the grand scheme of things, I think that's when you really start progressing to a level where

not only maybe you're writing and arranging, but you're thinking about, I know that these synths are going to take up a lot of space. So I need to make sure that those tonally allow the vocals to come through or whatever it may be. it's, yeah, I think once you start getting to that level, then you really start understanding how dynamics works and just how.

not just with arrangements, with the sound and how all of the frequencies fit together.

Brian Funk (24:09.352)

when I was doing my first years and years of recording. You know, I wanted everything to be huge or whatever. I wanted my guitar to be thick and heavy. So I'd be turning bass up on everything and probably soloing and listening like, yeah, listen to that guitar. You know, huge and then hit the bass. And then you put it all together and it's like, it sounds weak. Like what happened here?

Mike Nikou (24:16.451)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (24:35.146)

that revelation of understanding that they have to all work together. And I started thinking of the entire frequency spectrum, like a canvas that a painter might have. And I can't paint my house and my tree and my river all in this one corner. You know, I have to spread things out and give them their space. And that made a huge difference when my guitar sounded bigger when I actually...

Mike Nikou (24:44.783)

Yes.

Mike Nikou (24:55.8)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (25:02.386)

let them have less space and let other things support it.

Mike Nikou (25:07.234)

Yeah, it's really, it's phenomenal what you can actually do with less sometimes. Like I'm using an example of, you know, music I grew up listening to, like when I think about bands that were an inspiration to me, like, you know, whether it's Smashing Pumpkins or Green Day or whatever it is. I mean, Green Day were a three-piece band and they sound huge. Okay. Yes, there were double and triple tracks of the guitar, but it sounded absolutely massive. You know, and I remember reading an article,

long time ago where Billy Corgan from, you know, the pumpkins was talking about, when they recorded some tracks in melancholy and he was like, well, that track has got 60 rhythm guitar tracks on it. And I remember thinking, well, that's, you know, that's the answer. That's the answer to a big sound. We've got to just, we've got to have like 50 guitar tracks to make it sound like that. But without understanding that those tracks may be, there might be a minuscule of it.

Brian Funk (25:53.715)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (26:06.948)

blended in in a certain higher octave or whatever it is. And then you sort of compare that to like say a Green Day where they were tracking with a much simpler setup, but it still sounds equally as big. So there are different ways I think to get a similar result as well. And really comes down to your identity and your philosophy on recording and how you naturally perform as well. think that's

I think that's something people should always look at if you're a band and you're playing live. mean, what do you actually sound like when you're on stage and you're performing? What do you actually sound like? And I think it's easy for, you know, when you're in the studio, it's easy to say, well, let's add another 10 guitars. Are you going to be able to reproduce that? That was something I was always worried about in the bands I played. I was like, we can't reproduce that live. There's no point adding all of these extra

Brian Funk (26:51.604)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (27:02.146)

sounds because I just remember always having, you know, that thought process of, we have to be able to somehow reproduce it live. And it's a different thing altogether, of course. But I think philosophically, I think that's where, you know, a lot of modern bands struggle because they do often record these elaborate tracks, which has made them heavily reliant on backing tracks now. Excuse me. A lot of the big

artists that are performing now are completely reliant on backing tracks. and I, I, not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but it's just, it's different, I guess.

Brian Funk (27:41.802)

Yeah, I don't think I'm a big fan of it, actually. Generally speaking, of course. And I'm like an Ableton Live guy. I love that stuff. And, you know, I use Ableton Live to perform. But in the rock band situation, I don't have a lot of interest in it. I don't like that it forces you to a click.

Mike Nikou (27:47.961)

Mm.

Brian Funk (28:11.771)

I don't, I get an uneasy feeling when I see a band and I don't know what I'm hearing. You know, like I see, okay, there's these four people playing, but where's that sound coming from? And where's that? I don't know if that's really what they're playing. And it just makes you start wondering if you're really hearing anything after a while. Are they singing? Is because there's another track, there's all these harmonies and

Mike Nikou (28:28.911)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (28:37.486)

Yeah. And it's, it's almost become the, the, the standard way that bands operate now. you know, everything is done via in-ear monitoring. Everything is done to a click. Often you're, you don't know if you're hearing a recorded, vocal or a live vocal. I dunno, I think part of it maybe comes from perhaps in some cases, they're not as rehearsed as maybe they need to be. Maybe they need.

those tracks to actually make it sound, you know, palatable, I guess, for the audience. Because I think once you strip everything down and say you're a three piece or a four piece, you know, people are expecting you to sound a certain way. You know, if you've put records out and you're promoting that record and you're touring, people have an expectation of what they're coming to see. And I think that's where maybe the pressure has come in because people have geared more towards that more elaborate

Brian Funk (29:29.768)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (29:37.048)

recording, layered, multiple vocals. You know, they're in a situation where they have to use them just to portray something similar to what they've put out there in the world, I guess.

Brian Funk (29:50.186)

It could also be our heritage being, we've lived through this. Well, I mean, I think of like Milli Vanilli when they were exposed or even more recently, still a while ago now, but Ashley Simpson. She was on Saturday Night Live and they queued the wrong track or something.

Mike Nikou (29:55.662)

Yeah, maybe it's that. Maybe we're just too old.

Mike Nikou (30:03.321)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (30:11.482)

Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Brian Funk (30:18.085)

You know, she'd like kind of danced around, but and that like killed her career. Same thing with Millie Vanilla. And now I just don't think anyone would care. I'd be like, they just started the wrong track. Who cares? like back then there was some, I guess we didn't, we weren't, we hadn't accepted it as much, you know, like now we kind of know if I'm going to watch someone perform at the Superbowl. I'm not really hearing them perform. This is a very, and like you said too, so much of the production and this

Mike Nikou (30:43.151)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (30:47.345)

makes sense to me. It's gotten so elaborate that people want to hear it like they know it. So if it's too stripped down.

Mike Nikou (30:53.028)

They do. Yeah, I think more and more people, definitely more and more people seem to have, audiences seem to have an expectation. They want to hear the record when they pay tickets to a show. you know, I don't know. It feels that people want to hear the record more. And I think they feel like they're not getting their money's worth unless they hear, whereas I don't know.

Growing up in a time where you didn't know what bands were going to do. I think that was the excitement. I think you would, you would go see a band. mean, you love their album and you think, I hope they play this song. you know, like I was a big fan of counting crows for many years and I really love their, I mean, as a live band, they are a completely different animal. Like they are not, they, they are completely freeform to a degree, even to the point where, you know,

the singer Adam Duritz is he almost just goes on these poetic tangents and it's each night is different. And I don't know. I find that interesting and exciting to go to a show where, okay, yeah, you've got some songs you'd love to hear. But I think part of a show is, you know, you're not a hundred percent sure maybe what, what they're going to do. And I find that that was always exciting. I mean, there was some

acts where you thought, you know, if they play this song, it has to sound a certain way. And you might be disappointed if they didn't hit the mark, so to speak. But overall, I think even now, if I go to a show, I'm hoping that I'm going to see the group or whoever it is do something interesting, maybe something that's not necessarily how it is on the album. And I find that far more exciting than just...

paying tickets to go see a show where it's just going to sound exactly like the recording. I'm not sure what the appeal of that is, but it seems, guess a lot of people do have that attachment to it now.

Brian Funk (32:57.539)

To bring up Billy Corgan again, I think I read an interview with him in Guitar World in the 90s where he said, I don't want to hear a band sound exactly like the album. I have the album. I want to hear something different. I want to have a new experience with that. kind of echoing what you're saying. And I think in the example of the Counting Crows too, I get the sense just by the way he sings that his vocal performances are probably pretty

Mike Nikou (33:07.01)

Yeah

Mike Nikou (33:13.882)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (33:27.657)

like malleable, you know, that he's kind of riffing. And I think a lot of the records are probably just what he was doing that day.

Mike Nikou (33:38.479)

that day. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's exactly what it would have been. And I don't think they would have ever played a song the same way twice. He probably had slightly different lyrics, like you said, depending on what he was feeling on that day. And just that ability to interchange and just work on the fly. I think that's, it's pretty cool.

Brian Funk (33:53.577)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (34:01.969)

Yeah. And that would be what I'd want to see him do. I much the way if I was going to see, I don't know, like Eric Clapton play, I don't need him to be note for note on the grid, you know, click track to what he, I want to see him just play guitar in real life, you know, in real time and reacting. but yeah, I guess.

Mike Nikou (34:15.139)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (34:23.054)

Yeah, definitely.

Brian Funk (34:31.077)

That might, I wonder if that is a product of production that we've just kind of got now that we want this live performance to be on par sonically, you know, of similar quality and also just, I want it to sound like what I know.

Mike Nikou (34:43.194)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (34:46.65)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (34:52.12)

Yeah. And I think, because we've created this ecosystem of, everything being reliant on what's in the computer as well. I think now that the computer is now what used to be the, you know, the big recording console and all of the equipment, like the computer is really the hub of everything, whether you're, you know, tracking, you know, analog instruments, guitars, or synths, that the computer is the hub.

and we've created an ecosystem where everything exists within that virtual world. And so we've become reliant on how that all works. there aren't too many performers now where the whole show is not really run by some sort of laptop or multiple laptops, whether it's the, you know, the backing tracks, the lighting, whatever it is. you know, everything, it comes back to that central hub of the computer.

And I think that's just where everything exists now. And so it's to recreate a lot of those complex layered recordings now, it's almost impossible because you'd be in a situation where you'd probably need a 15 piece band to, if someone was individually playing all of those parts, then I just don't know how it would practically work. And kudos to those.

artists out there that are actually, you know, in a position where they're able to bring out, you know, a string section or multiple keyboard players, whatever it may be. think, you know, good on you for giving it a shot from that side of things and trying to recreate your elaborate recording in a live sense. You know, there aren't too many that are doing it now. I mean, it's the economies of scale with how music works makes it very difficult to justify.

that sort of cost as well. think that's a big part of where things are at now. think so many things are cost prohibitive in the modern music world. Whilst the entry level is, you know, it's very easy to get into it now. You can buy a cheap laptop. You can get a free door. You can get some free plugins and you can get up and running quick. think that's one of the best things that has

Mike Nikou (37:18.262)

evolved over the years is that creative people and musicians and artists now have a much lower barrier to entry. So there's, you don't have to save up thousands and thousands of dollars just to get some basic equipment. You can get up and running for a very low entry fee now. So, and I, so I think for anyone that's creative to be able to actually be creative without having to spend thousands of dollars. think that's one thing where

that's evolved over the years. think the whole gatekeeping side of things has changed the way the industry works. think it's, anyone can work now. You can create music at home. You can create it with your friends in a basement, whatever it may be. You know, it's an open platform for people to access now fairly easily.

Brian Funk (38:08.358)

It is a really cool thing. even just for beginners opening up GarageBand or anything like that, even on the phone, I you're already as well, like at such a standard of quality above where you, we could ever get with our four tracks right out of the gate. So it's encouraging. it's, I really hope that that

makes people make more stuff, make more art. Because I do worry, and I think we talked a little bit about this right before we hit record, just how times have changed and we're so distracted by those very same devices that give us all this power. Because I've, I've wondered if I would have learned guitar if I was coming up now, you know, to struggle through it, you know, the not be able to do it. doesn't sound good. My fingers hurt and

Mike Nikou (38:39.674)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (39:00.026)

Mmm.

Brian Funk (39:07.368)

I could have got a nice dopamine release on Instagram instead. So I hope.

Mike Nikou (39:11.706)

Hmm. Well, that's the challenge for young people nowadays. I think that's, you know, deciding on where they're going to focus their energies. mean, for someone that is inclined to learn guitar, mean, the resources that are available for free now are absolutely phenomenal. Phenomenal. Could you imagine if we had YouTube when we were kids and you wanted to learn the solo from Sultans of Swing, which I spent years, you know, sitting on the end of my bed, stopping the tape.

Brian Funk (39:36.018)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (39:40.667)

press play, I think that note sounds like that, play it 50 billion times. I think that's right, but it was maybe completely wrong. But whereas now you can get to a certain level. I mean, I speak to people that say, yeah, you know, I started playing guitar three months ago and they're kind of already at a level where, so I guess they've been able to bypass a lot of those years of struggle to a degree and get to a certain, for the, just for the information.

Brian Funk (40:06.226)

for the information especially. Yeah.

Mike Nikou (40:09.39)

so I think if that can shorten the, the time that it takes for you to get to a certain level, and if you're motivated to do that, I think the tools that are available now are far ahead of what we had, you know, growing up, it was just wasn't, it wasn't available. The information wasn't there. You had to really dig. You had to find books. You had to find maybe a video that was available to rent at the store or something, to learn about something. So it's...

I think if you are a motivated person to do that, the resources are readily available at no cost now. So, but like you were saying, the trick is, can a lot of young people even be bothered? Like they can get that quick dopamine hit on the socials. They can do all of that stuff and it's, be a real minefield for people to navigate, I think, particularly young kids that are in school and whatnot.

to sort of decide where they want to divide their time and what they want to dedicate their time to because the distractions would just be endless nowadays.

Brian Funk (41:21.731)

Yeah. And as much as it's given us a platform where we can share our stuff, get our stuff out there, it seems to have made us consumers so much more. I can definitely speak for myself. I mean, there's just so much information I take in every day and so many people's YouTubes or channels or Instagrams and that I just, really enjoy it.

Mike Nikou (41:40.282)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (41:49.926)

But I spend as much time probably watching and learning and listening about music as I do making it.

Mike Nikou (42:00.783)

Yeah, for sure. think everyone's in that same situation now. think, I mean, yeah, whether it's YouTube or whatever it may be, I think there are so many rabbit holes to go down now that it's just so easy to, fly off on all sorts of tangents. I think it's great from an information side of things. I mean, I love learning new things. I think it's, it's always enjoyable to learn about something new and the fact that we can easily do that now with very little

Brian Funk (42:13.927)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (42:22.235)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (42:30.596)

cost investment as such. I think that's one thing that's really changed, I think, because it wasn't too long ago where you had to really decide on, you know, what you want to invest in, whether it's your time or your money. You had to be pretty selective because once you were committed and you paid for it, you better make sure you got the value out of it. Whereas now I think you can sort of dabble in all sorts of different things, whether you're into music or cooking or...

Brian Funk (42:53.607)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (42:57.454)

Cars or whatever it may be I think you can easily dabble and learn about things and be like, yeah You know, I've I've watched a bunch of videos on that. I'm not sure that's for me So you can kind of get to a certain level and I think maybe fine-tune your Your interests and and maybe find things that you didn't know that you liked and I think that's but then it gets back to that distraction side of things does it create a situation where everyone is kind of

I don't know, like not so much a jack of all trades, but you know, just sort of mediocre at everything because there are so many different things we're doing now that it takes an extraordinary amount of discipline to stay focused on one thing. So that maybe that's an opportunity for people now. I think those people that do choose to, to specialize as such, that's where the opportunity is perhaps.

Brian Funk (43:51.612)

I think you're probably right. That is a hard thing to come by somebody that is, and it's hard for me even just, and even within music, it's hard. It's hard for me to pick the one plugin I'm going to learn really well or the one technique or even the one genre of music I'm going to play today. Those are hard decisions and sometimes crippling and it's not because I don't want to do it.

Mike Nikou (44:05.454)

Yeah, absolutely.

Brian Funk (44:18.599)

because I want to do it all. And now I have access. It used to just be, I got a guitar and I got a friend that plays drums. So let's make music. Not anymore.

Mike Nikou (44:28.1)

Yeah. I mean, the whole information overload thing is a real thing now. Like even if we do localize it back to music, it's very easy to just be completely distracted and overwhelmed by the choices that we have just through the, you know, the setups that we've created for ourselves now. And it is something that I actively try to remind myself of. Even when we're

talking about things like, you know, sort of mixing and mixing templates. and I think that's where I think people make the mistake of thinking that a template is something where we can bunch all of our plugins onto it and we can apply those amazing plugins to everything. Whereas I really try to, and I've done a few videos on it where it's like a toolkit, like a plumber's toolkit. You know, you're a plumber term turns up to a job and they're not going to use every

you know, they're not going to use like the same wrench for every job or whatever it is. Like they have a certain set of things, tools that they trust that they know can, can do a certain job. And that's something that I really try to employ when it comes to mixing is, the templates that I use are just having my tools available without me having to search through the menu and add, like everything is always loaded in bypass cause

You want to hear the raw tracks. You don't want to hear any of the plugins. And once I've kind of built the session, then I'll remove a bunch of things. You know, like I might be like, okay, I don't need any of those plugins for this track. We can get rid of that. Even with things like routing, Cubase has got a really cool new feature where you drop the audio tracks in a folder and that folder is automatically routed to whatever bus you've set it to.

Like say, so if you've got, like I was mixing a track last week that had 80 backing vocal tracks just for backing vocals. So I was able to, I was able to drop those vocal tracks into a folder labeled, you know, backing vocals. And that's automatically routed to my backing vocal bus. So, whereas previously you would have to go into the, like you'd have to bring up the mixing view and you'd have to highlight all of the tracks, you know, right click.

Brian Funk (46:27.355)

you

Brian Funk (46:33.703)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (46:48.61)

route them to, you know, whatever bus you want to, but it's done automatically. Now you literally just dump the audio files in the folder and providing that folder is routed correctly in your template, it's ready to go. So that's a huge game changer, literally just came out, I think last month in the latest version of Cubase. So even things like that, from an efficiency side of things, it forces me to focus on what I need to focus on because

Like I said, with the whole template side of things, I will remove a bunch of plugins that I don't need because I know I'm not going to use them. So that's really something that I try to actively remind myself of. Excuse me. When I'm going through the whole mixing stage, I'm trying to remind myself of, you know, what do I actually need here? What tools do I need? What tools can I trust? And what tools are going to get me the result that I'm looking for?

Brian Funk (47:49.159)

Right, I love that plumber analogy. I think I heard you talk about that in one of your videos, but it is true. you got the stuff you need for most situations, right? And yes, the goal is not to use every wrench I've got in my toolbox. You take the one that's gonna fit.

Mike Nikou (47:55.962)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (48:06.148)

Hmm. It's funny because I scroll through, yeah, I scroll through my plugins sometimes and I come across one and I'm like, wow, I forgot I had that plugin. That's a great plugin. I might use that one day. It's, but yeah, like I've really tried to consciously gravitate towards my go-to tools and I feel that it's helped me create even better mixes or masters, whatever it may be.

Brian Funk (48:19.334)

You

Mike Nikou (48:36.874)

I think it's just helped refine the process because you know what you're getting as well and you know how to get what you want out of it. I think that's part of the battle. think you might say, I've got a vision for the sound of this track, but knowing how to get what's in your head, that's the challenge. And I think that's what's taken years, I think, to get to that point where, you know, I hear a track and I'm like, yeah, I know what we need to do there.

this is what I need to employ to get that sound. And that takes a long time. Like I said, I started, you know, formally doing this back in 2015, but it's taken this number of years to get to that point where I think, you know, I have that confidence that I can say, you know, I can, I can achieve the sound that I hear in my head.

Brian Funk (49:24.294)

That kind of reminds me again, something from our shared experience where you and I would buy a piece of gear back in the day and you were kind of stuck with it, right? You couldn't send it back to Amazon and they, you could order, I needed a distortion pedal recently. I ordered three and sent two back, you like, you learned your equipment. You learned it. You understood it. And

Mike Nikou (49:38.542)

Hmm. Yeah.

Mike Nikou (49:53.732)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (49:54.831)

That's something that has been a huge help for me inside the DAW is to get used to certain plugins and get used to how they work and how they respond. And then learning like, this is good for this. This does a nice job here. I think probably a lot of the old gear that we kind of put on a pedestal these days and there's all these recreations you can download of. I mean, a lot of it is really amazing, but I think

Part of it is because the people spent time with it and learned how to pull those sounds out and where they excelled. And that is, I think, part of the legendary status is learning the gear because, I mean, as I've said, I've scoured the dark alleys of the internet when I first got my computer to find every plugin and I would get all these really interesting things of old gear and not understand why this was such a great plugin.

Mike Nikou (50:27.256)

Mmm.

Mike Nikou (50:52.026)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (50:53.124)

Like, okay, what's the big deal about this? Cause I didn't know how to use it. didn't know what I was doing with any of this stuff. But when you spend a little time with something and understand its function and how to use it, I find that to be the most important thing to have is that understanding of how to use it rather than which one, which DAW, which plugin, it's more the one you know. That's the one.

Mike Nikou (51:18.446)

Yeah, absolutely. And I've learned over the years why certain pieces of equipment or plugins are as famous as they are. I've, you know, I'm confident now in most cases I can get whatever I need with just an 1176 and LA2A, a Manly Massive Passive, you know, maybe a BaxEQ. And so these, once you learn how these tools work properly,

They are that good because they can do so much and you can get what you need very quickly. you know, it took a long time to really learn, you know, just the intricacies of even something as simple as an 1176 compressor and how that works. Once you really understand what it's doing. I think that the turning point for me was when I realized I could hear compression.

In the early days, like, yeah, think it's that compressor sounds cool. And then once you can actually hear what compression is, you understand attack, release and ratio and how that all works. And you can hear it. Like, you know, if you can hear an eight to one ratio versus a two to one, and you know what it's doing, that's when I felt the game really changed for me because I could impart that sound whenever I needed to.

and I knew how to get that sound. that was, and it gets back to what you were saying about learning your equipment, whether it's a distortion plugin or, you know, whatever it may be. Once you have that in-depth understanding of it, you know how to get what you need out of it. And then it becomes a genuine tool.

Brian Funk (53:04.614)

Well then you can also stay in that flow a bit better, you're not trying to figure out how this thing works.

Mike Nikou (53:08.995)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (53:13.036)

the worst thing for creativity is to, you know, be tinkering around with something to get it working. There's nothing worse. There's nothing that will kill a vibe more than like, you know, trying to figure out a pedal. Like, I even when you're rehearsing with the band, there's nothing worse than you're getting in a flow and someone's got a problem with their new pedal that they bought and everyone just stops playing and like, okay. And it's...

Brian Funk (53:19.162)

there.

Brian Funk (53:36.309)

Yeah, it's like,

Mike Nikou (53:41.605)

It makes a big difference. You know, I remember one time we were rehearsing and our bass player had just bought this really expensive new bass rig. And he wheeled it into the rehearsal room and he set it up in the corner and turned it on. And it was like at a really low setting, but the entire rehearsal room, all we heard was bass guitar. And we were like, man, we can't even hear the drums properly. All we can hear is that thumping of that bass.

Brian Funk (53:43.546)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:03.865)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (54:10.54)

And the whole rehearsal session was just basically him calibrating the bass guitar. But yeah, look, it's amazing how that sort of stuff can really, it really affects creativity as well. I really like to try to separate, like if I'm learning a new piece of gear or whatever it is, I try to dedicate like, okay, so what I'm doing today is I'm figuring this thing out.

Brian Funk (54:16.323)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (54:39.578)

It's not a creative session, it's a tinkering session or it's a learning session. think being able to segment that and separate things. I think that's really important even when you're recording and producing, being able to separate when you start the mix and when you've decided that the mix is complete before you go to mastering, think separating those phases, you know,

the recording stage, if you're still arranging and you still haven't decided on whether or not that second verse works or whatever it is, maybe you're not a hundred percent ready to formally record. Maybe you're still demoing. But I think having that, you know, that conscious approach of, okay, we understand we're not ready to record yet. We're still demoing or, you know, we're not ready to master yet because the mix is not quite where we want it. And I think just,

Yeah. Separating things, I think is a huge benefit in that when it, whether it's from when you're learning something as opposed to, you know, when you're mastering a final record.

Brian Funk (55:44.358)

Right. You kind of know. It's nice to decide to, and I mean, I go, I do both ways, right? Like, cause a lot of times when I'm writing, I'm producing, I'm mixing, I'm doing it all at once. I don't, I might not even have the idea yet. I'm just, and I guess you would say that's kind of demoing. but most of the time that becomes the final thing anyway. But when it's something maybe like with the band I play in.

where we have the song, we know what we're doing, it's already kind of put together, that stuff has been figured out. It is very helpful to say, okay, we're done recording stuff now, next. know, we got the guitars, they're done and move on from there. Cause otherwise, yeah, I've done it where like I'm mixing the drums, we recorded the drums and I'm like, getting the drums sound great and they sound awesome now.

I have no headroom for anything else. The bass player comes over and we try to do bass and I gotta undo everything I did anyway. I gotta circle back. I've made the song sound great if it was a drum song only, but it's not.

Mike Nikou (56:51.267)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (56:56.846)

And I think once you're at a certain level of proficiency, like you are, you can blur the lines more easily because you sort of know what the end goal is and you can blend those lines of production. yeah, let's kind of, let's kind of get this sound, you know, whether it's with drums or whatever it may be, you kind of know where you're going with it. And I think that's where it becomes part of that whole fluid process of creativity. And I think

you you definitely have to be at a certain level of proficiency to be able to do that. And it's certainly, you know, it's something that, people can do. Absolutely. It's, I think the separating of the task is definitely helpful if you're even at an intermediate stage, maybe where you're still finding your identity as well and still finding what your sound is. That's where I think it can be hugely helpful to separate each task.

But yeah, definitely once you're at that, you know, there are many producers that are, you know, at that level where you can be like, you know, I'm kind of writing, I'm kind of arranging, I'm kind of mixing. I've got one ear on the master as well. I'm like, you know, we're sort of lingering around this sort of level of loudness at the moment. I'm pretty sure we can get there by doing X, Y and Z. That's, yeah, that's definitely more, you know, it's a way that you can do it. Absolutely. Once you have that level of proficiency and even that in itself can be,

that can be inspiring to work that way as well. It's different for everyone, guess, isn't it? And whatever level you're at.

Brian Funk (58:30.469)

Yeah, and I think maybe even just styles of music too. Certain styles are more production heavy and more sound dependent and others are more song, that kind of stuff arrangement.

Mike Nikou (58:35.247)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (58:41.754)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (58:48.782)

Yeah, definitely.

Brian Funk (58:50.933)

I guess, I wanted to ask you a little bit about what it's like, for you when you get a song to mix, something comes in, you've kind of mentioned you've got your templates. So you've got like your tools are there kind of almost like the chef to the Misen blasts. Like, you got everything there. what are some of the first things that you do as you're starting to, I'm assuming people will be sending you probably.

Mike Nikou (59:03.224)

Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, same concept.

Brian Funk (59:18.885)

The individual tracks maybe stems, but I would imagine you're probably getting everything separate for the most part. Yeah

Mike Nikou (59:24.942)

Yeah, full multi-track is usually what I'd be getting. I love to listen to the rough mix. encourage people to... I mean, if they don't have a rough mix, that's totally fine. I think rough mix for me helps give me a picture of how the artist views themself as well. How they perceive the song, what they prioritize. When I'm listening to the rough mix, you know, I'm listening for...

Okay, well, what's the prominence of this guitar here? Okay, well, that solo there is really important or, and I'm also, I'm really trying to just listen to the song. I mean, that's one thing I find really enjoyable, just sitting back, pressing play and listening to the music for the sake of listening to the music. And what I'm trying to do is connect emotionally with that track to get a feel for...

you know, what is the song making me feel as a, like say if I was listening as a music fan and I was listening to it, what am I feeling? What am I thinking about when I hear it? Does it remind me of, of another song? Does it inspire me in a way where it's like, wow, I think this song would really be great with X, Y, and Z or this type of sound. So that's initially what I'm listening for. And that's a big part of it.

I always like to have a chat to the artist as well and say, Hey, know, what are you, what are you hoping to achieve with this mix? Like, what are your goals? Is it part of a, is it part of an album? Is it part of an EP? What's the overall vibe that you're going for? A bit of a Q and A to try to sort of get a idea of what they're hoping to achieve. That's part of the process. And once I've been through that and I generally tend to

get to a point pretty quickly where I'm like, okay, I definitely know where I want to take this mix. And then it's a process of diving into the individual tracks. you know, I'm looking for, making sure there is no clipped files there where there's distortion or just some abnormalities. If there are any problems with the audio files, I'll sort of go back to the client and say, Hey, I noticed your, your kick drum is clipped on this one. Any chance you could bounce me a fresh

Mike Nikou (01:01:46.181)

version maybe with a little less level or whatever it may be. So I'm looking for, guess at that stage, the technical issues that may be preventative through the mix. A lot of mixing initially is problem solving. It's finding issues. I may hear those issues in the rough mix. I might be like, you know, wow, that the low mids are completely out of control here.

and I can hear that it's coming from the bass guitar or I can hear that it's coming from those two synths that are panned out left and right. So a lot of those things I'm generally hearing pretty early on in the rough mix. And then it's a process of elimination. First thing I like to get my grouping and routing done, with the, you know, like the mixing checklist that I've got there, it actually tells people to sort of number their files and also

almost categorize them. like if it's drums, know, put drum slash snare, drum slash hi-hat, drum slash kick, whatever it may be. So that those are all grouped into, okay, that's all drums, that's percussion, that's acoustic guitars, that's electric guitars. I think that's a huge benefit, I think, you know, from a routing perspective as well, when you're setting up a mix, it would be exactly the same. I think if you were mixing on a massive analog console, you want to set

things up in sort of groups so that you're able to apply maybe your high pass filters to the group as a whole and things like that and shape things in that way. But yeah, that process of elimination is the first part, know, the setting up of the mix, making sure the levels, the whole gain staging thing is really important. Gain staging effects, you know, if you are using plugins, they react differently, dependent on, you know, how much level you're sending to it.

So I have my certain plugins are calibrated to a way where as long as I send them certain amount of gain, I know that they're going to be in the sweet spot as soon as I hit that level. So that's also part of, you know, setting up my template is setting it up. So it's more conducive to correct gain staging as well. I like to route things to group buses and then even to the point where there's an all music bus, there's an all vocals bus.

Mike Nikou (01:04:06.17)

before it hits the master so I can control the instrumental as well as all of the vocals before it hits the master and things like that so but that's definitely the I guess the core components of you know when I'm setting up a mix that that's really critical for me

Brian Funk (01:04:24.42)

Right, so you got to kind of make sure there's nothing too wrong, no problems, maybe clean things if necessary or get them done again. Organization, yeah, that sounds like a huge one. And you mentioned the checklist that you sent over. And I just want to re-mention which I'm sure I said in the intro.

Mike Nikou (01:04:29.562)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:04:47.936)

that you are providing a nice download for people of your mixing and mastering checklist for people. That would be before they send it off, but it's also just great stuff to think about for yourself before you move on to these new phases.

Mike Nikou (01:05:01.57)

It is, yeah. Definitely. It's very easy to, I think, forget about some of those important little tasks. You know, whether you're preparing all of your recorded tracks for mixing, or if you're preparing your final mixes for mastering. Because the other thing we're always looking to do is we're looking at making sure the final masters are presented in a format that is going to last for many years. So, you know, if people are consuming your music and

50 years, 100 years time, whatever it may be, hopefully they are. We want to have audio that is archived to a level where it's going to stand the test of time. So that's something that is really important. So those checklists can be really helpful and just reminding you, you know, to do certain things when you're finalizing your tracks. It can be very helpful, you know, even if you are doing it yourself, it's just a little reminders that can help you get organized.

Brian Funk (01:06:02.808)

Yeah, that's great to have just as almost something to look at every once in a while. So yeah, people can download that and keep that. And maybe if they decide to send you something or send something anywhere really, or just to yourself. there, yeah. Yeah, it's kind of just good advice really for where you are in the process.

Mike Nikou (01:06:21.284)

Yeah, they're very much universal.

Mike Nikou (01:06:30.561)

absolutely. Yeah, it should hopefully be a good help for people.

Brian Funk (01:06:36.292)

You mentioned we have a little checklist I'm kind of reading off here too that we were going to talk about. Some common issues you hear when you get productions. Things people run into. I have some of my own that I'm very aware of. I some reason like to let things build up in that 1 to 2k region. I don't know maybe my hearing is like weak there or something. I tend to emphasize that a lot when I'm mixing.

Mike Nikou (01:06:46.116)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:06:55.748)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:07:04.142)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:05.368)

What are some things like you tend to see that maybe we can learn to avoid if possible?

Mike Nikou (01:07:08.574)

yeah, look, I think, I think definitely overall, levels of each individual, you know, audio track, you know, I'm saying like the level of the vocal, making sure that it's, it's not distorting or clipping things like that. That's something that I, I wouldn't say I see it frequently, but when I do see that it's, you know, that's a huge problem. You know, if you're mixing a track and your vocal is clipped,

It's kind of past the point of no return. know, yes, you can use RX and try to de-clip things like that, but it's never going to be the same. So I'm always recommending people to get things as clean as you can to the point where it's not distorting. Crossfades, I think, is something that people can occasionally just miss that when they're bouncing their files out for mixing.

If they've comped a vocal and they've pieced together different parts of different performances, making sure you've got those clean crossfades so you're not hearing the microphone or the cut point where you've edited the audio. That's really important just to get a clean track. also something I do see semi-frequently is when people have recorded a vocal maybe on different days.

Like maybe they've recorded verse one and then come in the following day and recorded verse two or the chorus Have an understanding that your voice has a different timber a different a different sound each day you might wake up one morning and you're just slightly more congested than you were the day before and So then you've got a performance where you've got verse one has a particular sound Maybe you even moved the microphone in a slightly different position

and you've got a different tonality, you know, throughout the song. And that can kind of just subliminally create for the listener a bit of a strange experience. I mean, look, if we were in a situation where I have to fix that during the mix, I'll usually cut up the vocal and put it on different tracks, molt it out, apply different EQ to each verse, just so that we get a nice cohesive sound.

Mike Nikou (01:09:33.627)

That is one of the solutions for that sort of problem, but that can generally be avoided by setting your levels correctly when you're recording and recording everything on the same day. Like say if you're recording a lead vocal, try to get that track done the same day. It's fine if you're recording backing vocals and things like that later. You can stack them. It really doesn't matter. But I think when it's something like a lead vocal, take the time to

get a really cohesive, consistent recording and the results in the mix will be significantly better. That's something that I do see occasionally.

Brian Funk (01:10:14.639)

That is one of the hardest things to do to get the same sound on the next day or sometimes even just later in the day. You take a break and you come back. You might be able to get away with it maybe if you do the chorus and the verse separate, but yeah, if you're trying to... It's something about vocals that there's so many factors, the distance from the mic, the... Like you said...

Mike Nikou (01:10:24.58)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:10:41.722)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:10:43.693)

How are you feeling, your energy level? I agree with you on that. I really do try to make sure that that stuff happens in one shot as best I can.

Mike Nikou (01:10:46.842)

for sure.

Mike Nikou (01:10:54.03)

Hmm. Yeah. I mean, look, the best vocalists I've worked with, you know, when we've done recordings and we've done tracking sessions, they have a defined process. When they come into the studio to record, they have a certain drink that they bring with them. They might have like some warm tea or some lemon water or something. They will only have a certain number of sips before they start. Then they'll wait five minutes and then they'll do a test run to see how they're feeling. But it's a process. won't,

you they were not going to have a lunch break until, because if they eat a certain food, then they're going to have a different, their voice might have a different sound if they, drink a coffee or something. So, you know, the best vocalists, they are completely rigid in their process when it comes to tracking. It's like a, it's a defined process they do every time. It's, they have their own checklist, I guess you could say of how they prepare for a session and

you'd be surprised at how much you can get done once you are organized and you know how you feel and how you work and how to get the best out of yourself. You can come in and do a two or three hour session. You might even be able to track a few songs in that time if you have a process. So it's definitely like if you are a singer and you record your vocals a lot.

I definitely recommend taking the time to work out your process, what works best for you and gets you the results that you want, because that will really give you consistent results that you can repeat each time as well.

Brian Funk (01:12:31.073)

Yeah, yeah, I think that applies to in a lot of ways, just knowing when you're best, what time of day you're fresh and, you know, inspired and stuff. You've got one of the bullet points here is kind of brings us back to something we've been talking about a little bit with the way things have gotten produced and polished over the years. And we got into the live performance aspect.

Mike Nikou (01:12:36.664)

Mm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:00.149)

One of the dangers of that is you can polish away all of the nice stuff. In speaking of vocals, for instance, sometimes you go in there and you're cutting breaths and little things to clean it up. And sometimes there's a lot going on in those breaths. There's a lot of emotion in there.

Mike Nikou (01:13:19.354)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:13:22.445)

how do you approach that? This kind of keeping it, you want it to sound slick, clean or whatever the particular aesthetic is. there's some weird invisible line and it's like a blurry line, kind of like what you were saying too about with Green Day and like Smashing Pumpkins and the difference in recordings where, you know, as you start, as I'm adding like a couple extra guitar overdubs, it sounds really cool. It sounds really, and then like,

Mike Nikou (01:13:37.85)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:13:51.253)

all of sudden something is gone and it didn't happen after that last overdub but along the way. These things get lost, they kind of slip away or fade away or something. How do you approach all that?

Mike Nikou (01:14:04.216)

They do. There's definitely, I think a point you get to where it's almost like you're past the point of no return. Like you've edited something to the point where it's no longer what it was. And I think that's where it's worrying. I think where you look back on a track that you've been working on and you're like, well, this really doesn't sound like what I was doing. And particularly with vocals, if you do start going down that path of editing out breaths and all every little

intricacy of the human voice. It's very hard for the listener to relate to it because we don't sound like that. You know, when we're talking or when we're singing, we don't sound like that. The breaths in particular, that's something that I've really, um, I'm really focused on because that can be the, uh, the dictator of how something actually feels. It's very, I mean, if you listen to some of the most famous recordings,

There are breaths everywhere, huge ones, quiet ones, unnaturally sounding ones, but that's the, I guess that that's the nature of the sound. That's what makes it appealing to people because it's real. And they're like, well, that's a person. And I sound like that too. Or, or, you know, I have that tendency and I think people relate to things that are real. So I think when it comes to polishing your recordings, there's, there's a certain, I mean, it's

Genre dependent as well because sometimes it calls for a unusually polished sound. Sometimes it might be a certain pop track where we do edit out every single breath because we're going for a very specific, almost robotic sound. So that then becomes a creative choice. It's really, I think it really is something that's genre dependent. If you're recording a jazz track or a jazz vocalist, you're not going to touch those breaths.

or any of those little segues into the next vocal passage, whatever it is, you're not going to touch them. You're probably not even going to compress it too much because it's intended to be a highly dynamic recording where there are some super quiet parts and some, some louder parts. You know, maybe you just want to catch the peaks or whatnot, but even when I'm tracking vocals, I prefer to track with little to no compression because I want to capture the character. want

Mike Nikou (01:16:30.092)

as much dynamics as I can get if I'm tracking or recording vocals. It's easy to squash it down the track. We can do that later. That's not a problem. What we can't do is reintroduce dynamics if it's too squashed to begin with. So that's something that I would say to people, particularly at the recording stage, don't feel that you have to use compression to record. I'd rather you use zero compression and just make sure it's not

Brian Funk (01:16:46.592)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:16:59.556)

clipping. Maybe if you've got a compressor that's just grabbing the peaks, but even then it comes down to microphone technique because the best singers know when to pull back from the microphone. If they're belting something out, they know they've got to be further away, but that's a technique thing. That's something completely different. But as for the recording itself, I do think it's largely genre dependent.

And there are certain things, there are certain genres where, like I was saying, using jazz as the example, you just, can't mess with that in that, in that sense. It has to be as human as possible.

Brian Funk (01:17:32.778)

Hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:17:37.792)

Hmm. Right. There's definitely a lot of music you wouldn't want to edit, auto tune, quantize. And sometimes it's exactly what the song calls for too.

Mike Nikou (01:17:44.344)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:17:51.173)

Yeah, I mean, I hear a lot of modern tracks that are, you know, where the singer is absolutely phenomenal, but I can hear Melodyne. I can hear that it's been tuned and I'm like, you don't need it. You don't need it. It's you're already a great singer. Okay. There might be some passages where it's very slightly flat or sharp or whatever it may be. And if it bothers you clean it up, but you you listen to some of the greatest songs of all time and

Brian Funk (01:18:03.403)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:18:19.47)

done by great singers and there's flat notes everywhere. There are sharp notes here and there. And part of that, it's the, I think that's the character of the music. I think even when it is a pop recording, you can sometimes hear where, you know, the singer has, has maybe dropped a little flat in verse two as opposed to verse one. But I think that's what we relate to. You know, as humans, we're listening to music, we're looking for things that we can relate to. And I think those

the more we keep the human element in there. you know, that's really, I think that's what we all want to hear. And that's where I think, you know, AI and that side of things is never really going to be able to, to replicate that. It can't decide whether or not, whether or not something sounds good or bad. can't discern, you know, it can give you a certain sound, but it can't, you know,

make a decision as to whether or not something should be loud or quiet or whatever it may be. think that's where, you know, a lot of people are really concerned about AI and where it's going, but I don't think it's any different to any other tool that's come out in music over the years. You know, people were worried that Pro Tools was going to completely kill off hardware and analog equipment. It's completely not the case.

people still use all of that hardware frequently. So it's not something that's ever going to disappear. think it's just, it's a new technology that's there for people to utilize. And you know, think if it gets people creative, great, but it's never going to be able to do what a human can do as such. It's kind of like, I don't know, I like to use the analogy of

frozen pizza versus a restaurant pizza. I mean, yeah, I mean, frozen pizza, it's still pizza. You can put it in the oven and heat it up and it's still pizza, but it will never be what a restaurant pizza is. that it just, you always like to use the food analogy sometimes I think with, with music and production, like the chef thing. I think there are some very, some strong parallels there. but yeah, a lot of people are worried about the whole AI.

Brian Funk (01:20:25.899)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:20:30.025)

Yeah, a lot of...

Brian Funk (01:20:35.883)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:20:38.776)

side of things. And I really just think it's a new tool where learning what, where, where its place is going to be. You know, I'm hearing that they're going to be changing the way monetization works for AI stuff that's being released on streaming platforms. They're going to be demonetizing a lot of that stuff. think where it's maybe going to be lucrative in the future is artists licensing their likeness. where, you know,

like big company like Warner Brothers or whatever might be able to hire Taylor Swift's likeness to be on a song that she never even has to actually perform in. She never has to go into the studio to learn the song or sing it. They'll just, you know, pay for her likeness and she'll get the royalties. I think that's where I can see that becoming a big avenue for artists down the track, particularly for artists that have gained a certain level.

you know, of popularity, where they're able to monetize their likeness, that I really, genuinely believe that will become a significant income source for those artists that, you know, are able to do that.

Brian Funk (01:21:52.702)

Yeah, that's an interesting angle. That's for sure. I think you have a point though, with a lot of that human stuff that it can analyze and probably through data and probability figure out where those flat notes should be and all, but it doesn't make the decision because it sounds good or it feels good.

Mike Nikou (01:22:04.218)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:22:16.538)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:22:22.241)

And that's a lot, I think, where those decisions happen. even guitar is, I think, a nice example where you've got the frets, right? So you can play the notes, but there's a lot of stuff happening when you bend that string, even just a little, or just the vibrato you add to it. You can come out of tune and create tension. And even if, I still think even if this

gets so good, it's like making amazing music that people want to hear. It's maybe like the restaurant analogy, right? Like I could go to the Michelin star chef restaurant and get my spaghetti and meatballs or whatever, but there's still something special about mom's spaghetti and meatballs. You know, the ones that your mom makes or your wife or your best friend is a great chef.

Mike Nikou (01:23:06.02)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:23:20.245)

or just the way the guy you know down the street makes barbecue food in his way. I think we'll still long for that. And I'm hoping anyway. There's something just really nice about real people putting their effort into it.

things have gotten so overblown and produced and it's amazing what we can do. Like you said, live shows, the lights are in sync and everything, but it's cool to just watch, you know, a couple of teenagers banging around and do something real, regardless of how good it is. Just the, there's something special about that or, or somebody picking up an actual camera when you could.

Mike Nikou (01:23:47.258)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:24:11.759)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:24:12.737)

You have a phone that probably has better quality than some of these old cameras even, but that deliberate act of taking the picture with the camera and there's nothing, no other focus. And you're working to find what's beautiful in that moment with the limited amount of film you have. You're making those choices and decisions. I'm hoping all of this makes us appreciate that.

Mike Nikou (01:24:33.946)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:24:37.708)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:24:41.447)

aspect of it. It's happening to me I'm noticing. I'm really seeing that in the stuff I'm enjoying lately that I'm noticing the effort or the thought behind it or something, the human. I like humans, I guess.

Mike Nikou (01:24:59.076)

Yeah. And I think it's all tied to our emotional experience. You know, you talk about, you know, you might prefer, know, your mom's spaghetti over the fancy restaurant because it's tied to our human emotional experience. made us feel a certain way. And yes, you know, I mean, the restaurant might be technically absolutely superior in every way, but it's not tied. We don't have any ties to it. We don't have any,

connection, we don't have any emotion attached to it. And that's where I think there, you know, it's similar with music. Yeah, you can have the most perfect sounding track, whatever it may be. But what is our, what is our emotional connection to it? What does it mean to us as a human? And I think that's where, you know, like you were saying, I just don't see how AI or anything like that is ever going to be able to replicate the experience.

and recreate how we feel when we experience the real deal or whatever it may be.

Brian Funk (01:26:05.184)

Yeah, all of this stuff, like, you can still appreciate those five-star Michelin chef spaghetti meatballs, right? It's not exclusive one or the other. And even, you know, just getting back to how we connected that Midnight Mystery Club worked with you and recommended you and that was, cool. Like, you know, I'm already like into what they're doing. And now let me...

get deeper and learn more about like who they worked with. the fact that you can get something mastered online, AI or whatever. There's a lot of ways you can do that. But I kind of like knowing that someone took the time with it and thought about it. And maybe somebody that I care about or that I appreciate their work with. And it went through their lens and here it is now through that journey. This

Mike Nikou (01:26:57.764)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:27:05.178)

song has now gone on its own life, know, kind of like, almost like a child that you release into the world and then, you know, went through you, you mixed, you mastered it, now it's back and it's all grown up. know, there's something cool about that.

Mike Nikou (01:27:13.924)

Yeah, exactly.

Mike Nikou (01:27:20.164)

Definitely. mean, you you mentioned like the online mastering side of things. It's really interesting because online mastering cannot determine if the track you're uploading has already been mastered. So it may already be maxed out. It may be limited. There may even be distortion artifacts from the fact that it's been squashed already. It's generally not able to discern whether or not it can apply its mastering effects. Like it just...

analyzes the track and applies the effect and provides it back to you, but it can't discern whether or not it actually needs mastering. And I think that's one of the key things about mastering. Sometimes it's what you don't do as opposed to what you do. I think a lot of people make the mistake that thinking that mastering is like the magic bullet. Like that's where

you know, it's going to fix all of the problems in my mix and it's going to sound loud and it's going to sound amazing when I upload it to Spotify. And that's really, it's not the case. Mastering is really, it's the final check, I guess you could say. It's we're making sure it's going to be compliant and it's at a level where it's going to be fine for long-term, even archival audio storage and whatever it may be. But really it's

It's not a magic bullet, it's just the final check. And I think that's where the automated mastering and the online mastering, I'm not sure that it's really able to discern in that way, because it's not going to give you a track that is untouched. The online mastering would not say, hey, your mix is 100 % fine, you don't need to do anything. It wouldn't do that. And I think that's where...

Brian Funk (01:29:04.266)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (01:29:08.826)

once again, we get back to the human aspect and having go through someone's lens and their process and their systems. I think that's really where, you know, when you partner yourself with a mixing or mastering engineer, those are the generally the reasons, you know, you should be looking for what, what is their process? Um, what, what do they do? Um, that's, you know, I think that's a big part of it.

Brian Funk (01:29:36.949)

Yeah. I like someone that is okay with saying, I didn't really need to do much to this. know, that's a great perspective to get. I still think it's worth the money, the cost for their services to, you know, listen to it and say, you know what? It doesn't really need too much. I'm going to do this and that. And that's going to be it. I don't think...

Mike Nikou (01:29:45.486)

Yeah, it's fantastic.

Brian Funk (01:30:03.818)

you're paying somebody because of how much they did necessarily.

Mike Nikou (01:30:07.684)

Hmm. Yeah, not at all. It's, it really is. It's about the process. And I think, yeah, but I think to even get, you know, like say if you've mixed your own track and you've sent it off to a mastering engineer and they've said, Hey, you know, your mix is phenomenal. I really didn't need to do much at all. Here's your masters. they're already at an extremely high level. You know, I've just fixed this or that, and I've made sure they're compliant with, with this.

Brian Funk (01:30:13.938)

It's not per knob tweak.

Mike Nikou (01:30:36.332)

upload format, whatever it may be. I think that would be extremely gratifying for someone that has mixed their own music and, you know, to have a mastering engineer look at it and say, you know what, you, you did a fantastic job. you get the green tick. You're ready to, you're ready to upload. So I think even just, like you said, going through that process is, yeah, that could be extremely gratifying for, for an artist to, get that.

Brian Funk (01:31:00.96)

My band went to the mastering of our album and sat with him and he did an awesome job. He's like turning knobs. I can't even really tell if it's even moving, but he's hearing it. And it was really nice to just ask him, what did you see with the mix that I gave you? where...

Mike Nikou (01:31:15.578)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:31:24.985)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:31:29.664)

Did you need to do anything? And just that feedback alone was so valuable just to hear like, yeah, this part here, you know, I wanted this little sibilant in the vocal. So I'm trying to work with that. It was really helpful just for the future too, just to get some, set of ears, trained ears.

Mike Nikou (01:31:47.618)

Yeah, absolutely.

There are a lot of mastering engineers that just won't even allow the artist to see anything of what they do. They won't provide any feedback. They'll just give you the masters and say, here's your masters. Um, I'm a big fan of, you know, providing feedback and saying, Hey, look, next, next time you do a mix, I'd love to hear you try X, Y, and Z. I think, you know, you can achieve, you know, a significantly better result by doing this or that next time you record.

And, you know, I've helped a number of artists from, know, they've gone from almost like a, a semi beginner stage to a level where they're mixing and sometimes even mastering their own music because they've gone through that learning phase. And I'm always happy to give people feedback and help them learn about, you know, why we do certain things. cause that incrementally helps them over the years refine their craft.

And it also helps them articulate what they're trying to do as an artist. think sometimes that can be a big block, a blocking thing for people. Like if you don't know how to do something, but you know what you want to do, that's really frustrating for an artist. So I think the more you can learn and those, like I said, those incremental learns throughout the process. And then you look back after a certain number of years and you're like, wow, I've come so far with my music. So

That's something that I'm always conscious of and I'm always happy to answer people's questions about the process and why I do a certain thing. I think it's great for artists to want to learn that. Not everyone does. Some people just don't want to know about it. They're just like, hey, here's the track, work your magic and just send me the files. I don't really want to know anything about the process, but everyone's different.

Brian Funk (01:33:45.908)

Yeah, I haven't found that either that to be anything that takes away too. It makes me want to work with those people more. It makes me trust them more. It makes me just enjoy what they're doing. So I don't know the need to hide it.

Mike Nikou (01:34:02.555)

I think mastering has always had that rep... Yeah, and I think mastering has always had that reputation of being like a bit of a mysterious dark art. It's totally not that at all. It's, you know, like I said, I love sharing feedback with people to educate them on the process and what's involved and how they can better their own recordings and productions down the track. I'm a big fan of that. Whereas like I said, there are some...

Brian Funk (01:34:10.228)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (01:34:32.43)

mastering engineers that it's a closed door, it's a closed book, they like to maintain the mystery. And I think that's changed a lot over the years, I think with the transparency of way the music industry works now with mastering engineers sharing their process, sometimes even, you know, they'll do like a live feed on YouTube and they'll show people, you know, roughly what they do when they're mastering. So I think the...

the secrecy has been removed. The tools are readily available for people. And I do feel that a lot of people are more going down the lines of partnering themselves with someone they can trust and they enjoy working with, and they enjoy that interaction and the process of working with that particular engineer.

Brian Funk (01:35:20.863)

Yeah, it is. It's one of the nice things about the development of our world is this access to information and seeing what people are doing. And hopefully, like you said, it allows more people to get in and be part of it.

Mike Nikou (01:35:31.706)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:35:37.687)

Absolutely.

Brian Funk (01:35:40.784)

So we've been going a while, huh? It went fast for me. I appreciate your time. We'll wrap this up. But I want to just thank you very much for taking the time here and encourage everybody to check out what you're Mike, Nico, so we got mnproductions.com.au is the website, which all this will be in the show notes.

Mike Nikou (01:35:44.344)

Yeah, time flies, hey? Yeah, it did go fast.

Mike Nikou (01:36:08.27)

That's right, Brian.

Brian Funk (01:36:10.175)

Um, on Instagram, I think is a great way to find you because you'll pop up with some nice, very poignant and practical pieces of wisdom and advice. Um, that I think can help lots of people. It's definitely helped me. Um, I really love what you're doing.

Mike Nikou (01:36:27.716)

Yeah. Instagram. Thanks, Brian. I really appreciate it. yeah, people can check it out on Instagram. I'm also on TikTok at the same address at mcnixpro, M-I-C-N-I-X-P-R-O. yeah, whichever way people like to consume their media, it's on all of the, it's usually the same sort of posts will be sent out through various platforms. think it's on like the...

Brian Funk (01:36:47.337)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (01:36:57.112)

YouTube shorts as well. but yeah, thank you so much. It's been really great to chat today and I really appreciate you having me.

Brian Funk (01:37:00.361)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:37:07.699)

Yeah, and thanks for supplying the download. You've got the mastering checklist, the mixing checklist, and some slate VMR presets. That's virtual mix room, right? I don't have that, virtual.

Mike Nikou (01:37:19.118)

Yeah, Slate Virtual... No, that's cool. It's a Slate Virtual Mix Rack. So it's basically like an interchangeable mix rack where you can plug in different modules within the mix rack. So you can put like a, you know, console, emulator, EQ, compressor, and you can interchange all of the modules. I've got a few starting points there that people can use. It's not so much to apply a particular sound to something.

Brian Funk (01:37:26.132)

Mixerack.

Mike Nikou (01:37:48.3)

It's not so much, I guess, like a magic bullet as such. It's more of a bit of a starting point where, you know, people can work with, you know, if they are mixing their own tracks or experimenting with sounds, you know, some specific presets for like drums and things like that. So, you know, I hope people will find some sort of use for that as well.

Brian Funk (01:37:51.965)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:38:07.997)

Yeah, that's very nice and generous of you. And we'll put that link in the show notes as well as all of the other ones there for people to find.

Mike Nikou (01:38:16.302)

I appreciate that, Brian.

Brian Funk (01:38:18.559)

Well, thanks for being here and thank you everyone for listening. You guys have a great day.

Mike Nikou (01:38:22.446)

Thank you. Appreciate it. Take care and have a great day.