OVERSEA put together a download Ableton Live effects and sounds he used on the new album, BEYOND!

Listen to BEYOND by OVERSEA - https://www.intellijend.com/l/beyond

Listen to OVERSEA on the Music Production Podcast: Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Lomotor is a musician and producer who makes nature-inspired electronic music on a small farm in Massachusetts. His new album ABCAPSILAHAD combines electronic and acoustic instruments with field recordings and the sounds of leaves, trees, and birds. 

This Free Ableton Live Pack contains instruments made with trees and stones! (Get the Full Pack of 10 Instruments when you join the Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc )

Lomotor's Creative Tips to Live By - https://lomotor.net/lomotor-s-creative-tips-to-live-by
Listen to ABCAPSILAHAD by Lomotor - https://lomotor.net/home

Listen Lomotor’s Music Production Podcast episode on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Sebastien and I spoke about his work as OVERSEA and how has been using music for meditation and healing. Sebastien explained how he uses Ableton Live as a live performance instrument. We also discussed finding the creative flow in activities such as surfing, meditation, and music-making.

Sebastien put together a download Ableton Live effects and sounds he used on the new album!

Get the OVERSEA BEYOND Free Ableton Live Instrument Pack here: https://brianfunk.gumroad.com/l/kvvvijh

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• OVERSEA - https://www.h-music.ch/oversea

• BEYOND by OVERSEA - https://www.intellijend.com/l/beyond

• H-Music - https://www.h-music.ch

• OVERSEA Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/oversea.music/

• OVERSEA YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@overseamusic

• OVERSEA Free Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.gumroad.com/l/kvvvijh

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer book - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.772)

What's up, Sebastian? Welcome aboard. Great to have you.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (00:04.301)

Thank you so much, Brian. So happy to meet you and and be here tonight with you. Today, today is today for you, it's tonight for me, but

Brian Funk (00:10.626)

Very happy to have you. Yeah, we have a little time difference. You're in Portugal. I'm on Long Island, New York. So yeah, we we've got an ocean between us, but so much in common, so much to talk about. So it's great to get to it. congratulations on the new record, beyond.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (00:31.433)

Thank you. Thank you. It's just been out a few weeks and it's already so I've been so blessed and touched by the way it's it's been welcome. So thank you so much.

Brian Funk (00:42.766)

Hm. Yeah. I I've been listening, you know, over the last few weeks just to familiarize myself. But today in particular, I was kind of telling you, I was, you know, it was Monday morning, rushing to get to work and the hectic, you know, speed of life. And I got in the car and I put your record on and it was just a great exhale. It was and I I had such a nice ride. It was

just refreshing and put me in a great place to start the day. It was pretty much about the length of the drive, a little bit longer, so I didn't get the whole thing in, but it was yeah, just really nice moods, some nice soundscapes and also, you know, to do music like this that's very ambient, I guess you would say, like in nature and

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:13.224)

Looking in relation to 13.

Brian Funk (01:36.3)

There's a lot of melody, there's a lot of nice texture in there. So you've there's a lot going on. I I think, you know, more than a lot of ambient music often has chord changes and things like that. So, I found it pretty interesting on that level too, is it's it's really cool.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:54.973)

Thank you so much and and I'm I'm I feel blessed because I feel like the mission is accomplished. If you have if you had like a a moment to just zone out and and kind of rest while you were driving to work, it's kind of it's a good good way to to feel it. So yeah. So happy about that.

Brian Funk (02:08.43)

Mm.

Brian Funk (02:15.564)

Yeah, we could use more of that kind of stuff in the world, probably for a lot of us, right?

OVERSEA (sebastien) (02:19.856)

For sure, and that's also why I wanted to create this this type of album and and you were mentioning ambient and and already is so much to uncover, you know, but I don't come from ambient music at all and a at the start of my music journey, career, whatever. And but but I wanted to create a a longer piece, like a longer album with this type of space, you know, and

and being able to to kind counterbalance our culture and social media is and s the fast in in which we live in at the moment. So it's it's it feels very good that you you know you're mentioning the car drive this morning after you're rushing out to get to to work. It's it's it feels good.

Brian Funk (03:09.25)

Yeah, and y you know, as I'm talking to you now, this is actually the first time I've seen your image in full screen of whereas before it had the split screen as we were setting up. But I'm seeing your your layout and in your I guess you're in your studio. and it is there's like a balance happening right now in the shot. On the left side of you you've got all your electronics and synthesizers, and on the right side we've got a bunch of guitars and a couple of other things I think

OVERSEA (sebastien) (03:24.425)

Yeah. That's true. I just kind of tried to put that Yeah. That's that's right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:38.712)

hiding in there. And I think that's a nice blend of what we're hearing, it sounds like, on the record.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (03:45.496)

Yeah. Yeah. So funnily enough, I so I come from guitar. I was I started playing music when I was ten and I was fascinated by guitar and I grew up playing guitar, you know, so it was a very different world than what I'm w very different music than what I'm doing today. And there was I I grew up in Switzerland in the French speaking part of Switzerland and I was a fan of a a guy, a French guitar player

called just the letter And he's a kind of a guitar hero in France. And and it was really my mentor as a kid. You know, I was really passionated by guitar. And it's and and when I started playing guitar, quickly started playing piano as well. And then I got my first node stage which had a few synth sound but I was not into ambient. And it's it's more recently that I got into synthesizer. I was in London

And I fell in love with the the Core GMS 20 that's over there. And yeah, I I like Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're so good. And I was in the studio in in Telliot Studios in London, and they had the the old one. And it that kind of started my love for synthesizer, which then brought me into a bit more of an experimental approach to music in general, and it it just also allowed me to

Brian Funk (04:48.651)

Hm. It's got the same one. The the kind of newer mini one that they made. Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (05:15.244)

not give a rest not you know, not not just get away from guitar but also open my musical knowledge and mind and experiments as well, with with synths and and that's that's kind of how I ended up doing Beyond or you know, all the work I'm doing now was just that particular moment in time where I fell in love with the the the the Korg S twenty and just it was just a a snowball effect from

from that very moment. And and funny enough, you're mentioning guitar is when I was almost finished with the new album and I didn't put much guitar in it. And I was actually about to finish the mixes and so something didn't feel quite like me. And I I was reflecting on it and and I thought I think it's missing guitars. And that's how I got back into it. It was the very last week

before I was sending it to Master and and I added all the guitars that are are now in the in the album and it just felt finished when I added the guitars it felt like I'm a whole you know as as this album could be and as I wanted to present it. So thank you because yes the guitars were not supposed to be there because overseas as a artistic project was always about my synth experimental side and

And less about my guitarist side, but I'm happy to merge the two together now, you know. So I'm glad you're mentioning it, you know.

Brian Funk (06:53.793)

Mm.

It's interesting how I f I've found this a lot in my own path and in a lot of artists I've followed and spoken with how these things kind of come together eventually. A lot of times we go off on these paths and we take I w I was the same way, guitar player, you know, rock bands and not much in the way of keys or synthesizers really at all in any of the music that we played and

Then it sort of crept in a little bit and little I think that what really excited me was hearing kind of chip tune sounds in synthesizer, like putting just a square wave and be It sounds like Nintendo And I thought that was really cool and it had a lot of nostalgia from my childhood. And that started getting me kind of interested in it. And it was plugins of course at first and I had no idea why anyone would need to buy a physical synthesizer because

OVERSEA (sebastien) (07:40.981)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (07:54.92)

of how much you could do with plugins until I got my hands on a physical synthesizer and I was like, I I get it. Turning the knobs, controlling interacting with it like a like a like an instrument, I guess, like a machine that you can play with. but then a lot of my music started to go on in that direction and it it'd been a little while since I'd picked up the guitar, which has really always been the way I interact with music the most and the

OVERSEA (sebastien) (07:57.839)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (08:24.873)

I understand music the most through the guitar. and I'm kind of at that point too where now the blending and incorporating and almost doing synthesizer like things to my guitar and and guitar like things to my synthesizers running. We were talking about I've got the Chroma console here running it through guitar pedals. it's been a lot of fun. So it's nice to hear how there's like a sort of

OVERSEA (sebastien) (08:35.06)

Instead of value by these houses.

Brian Funk (08:54.123)

You know, three sixty kind of thing happening for you.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (08:57.611)

Yeah, and I think it's a you know, it's kind of a conversation between our different sides and our different kind of love for sounds. I don't know if it feels like this for you, but you know, like you were saying, y the guitar inspired you to play synth differently and synth in inspired you to play guitar differently and and I feel the same way. and i it just opened up so much in my music, getting into synth and and also just

wanting to have my guitar sound different. You know, I I I w I was sh I don't know, I've been playing for fifteen years, you know, playing guitar for fifteen years and although I was always passionated by different sounds and pedals, I was like very early on I had pedals and I was messing around with with the pedals. But just to kind of the synth world is is another kind of metaverse out there, you know?

Brian Funk (09:47.213)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (09:57.381)

And when you get into it, it kind of

start this conversation with the rest of your I mean it did for me in in my case. It started a conversation for me in the guitar world as well. It just like wanted to treat it differently. You were saying that and I think it's it's it's one of those moments where you feel like you're evolving as a musician also and it's it's one of those beautiful way to kind of counter any plateau effect that we can have at some point because you know you know how it is when we've been playing

playing for so long, sometimes it it it you can kind of feel in a rut and just finding ways to rediscover your instrument by using other instruments to inform this conversation is I mean it was a big part of of my journey and and and my musical journey because I don't really like the word career but in in everything I do today has been inspired by how I got away from guitar to come back to it with a different

an angle you know so it's it's funny you know.

Brian Funk (11:05.172)

Yeah, it it does. I find that a lot with all the different ways I guess I interact with making music now, which I'm guessing you probably have, you know, coming from guitar, you I imagine you played and probably groups and bands and learned making music that way and then you get into sequencing and you get into these other methods of where it's more recorded based.

And you're writing that way, it's so nice, I guess, when you get down those roads a little bit to realize like, okay, today I could and this is also the source of a lot of my struggle and procrastination in that I don't know which one I want to pick to start with today, but I could start with the guitar, old style, make a song that way, or or maybe on a MIDI controller or maybe a sequencer. And there's always a fresh way to approach it.

when you have some of these different things going on. But which can also, like I said, be the problem too. You have too many options, too many choices.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (12:08.024)

Yeah, for sure. We can get lost in the kind of the geek world and and just having too many options. Most recently I was I had to my computer died, so I had to redo my whole Ableton and my whole and I had to go through all my plugins to f and I I think I I probably didn't reinstall all of them. And it's just the statement of sometimes we get so many of those sounds and plugins we don't even use because we're so used to what we use all the time and we

Brian Funk (12:19.464)

no.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (12:37.549)

we got we get distracted. So a lot of a a lot of beyond of this album and and my most recent work is was about just trying to get away from the the the plug in crazy mind, you know, like getting more plugins and just trying to be a bit more creative with what I have. Even with my synth, you know, I I I do have some dream synth in mind, but

for now this is my collection and and I try to be as creative and I think this is this is the way to kind of also to me was about to to to help me finish stuff. You know, it's it's about what what because we we asked the question about what we are missing or what we want to add to our collection arsenal in a way. But in the end it's it's how can we use what we have to be creative and to sound different.

than what we did two years ago or how to evolve from that. And this this road was was very inspiring to me and it and it still is because yeah some pedals on my board I've you know I have the I think it's the DL4 the line six DL4 delay that I had for I don't know 15 years but I'm still trying to find ways to to

to be inspired by it and and be excited when I do something with it. It's not always the case, but I think it's it's it's it's good to have this kind of almost gratitude like reverence towards what we have and and almost stretching it like yeah a a gratitude thing and and being creative with this to me was was a a big a big thing a few years ago. Hmm.

Brian Funk (14:04.438)

Mm.

Brian Funk (14:30.41)

I like that thought process, the gratitude of it. 'Cause we have, like you said, there's so many plugins, there's so many pieces of gear. It's so easy to get gear now and if you like it, you keep it, you send it back, you can return it. it's easy to dabble in a million different things, sell it on eBay if you don't want it. But that feeling, yeah, when I was younger and like I just got a guitar. It's like wow.

Like I have a guitar now and I can play it and it was so exciting. But when you can download a new plug in every twenty minutes, you c you know, I follow a lot of blogs and things w about the gear and you know, and I love keeping on top of it, but it's like there's always a new free thing, a new free thing, and you're like, cool, and you wanna get it. But every time you do, I guess it it does take away a little bit of that feeling of gratitude.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (15:03.061)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (15:29.388)

'Cause you don't get to really spend the time with stuff like we used to. 'cause you're on to the next thing and you how's it sound? Okay, cool. And then you just move on and try the next one instead of getting lost in it a little bit and some appreciation.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (15:33.684)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (15:40.759)

And and that's the beauty of it. And it's a lot about what I'm doing now is getting lost in the sound. And because I have this very almost meditative, meditative approach and contemplative approach to sound, which has kind of always had, but it's it it it's been even bigger now over the last few years. But it's it's just that.

time we give ourselves to get to know a sound or just experiment it in different ways and almost I'm using it almost to get into trance, you know, sometimes, but simple sound, meditative sound, and and yeah this this thing get lost into sound is very inspiring to me. And you know it's it's going back to the conversation we had about the Brahma console just a a few minutes ago.

I got mine six months ago before I was I got on tour and I just got it set it to what I needed to do for the tour. But I didn't even I don't even know how to use probably sixty percent of it, seventy percent of it, because now it's controlled by MIDI on on stage so it does everything it needs to be doing.

But that's about it. And I actually I was thinking about that a few days ago. I was like, I think I should spend more time with this pedal because I mean my twelve years old kid, the the version of myself twenty plus years ago, would have been so excited, you know, and would have spent like an an entire summer digging into the sound. And sometimes it's like that. Just just just going back to that gratitude. I'm like, wow, all of all of what I have today is

Is is is so much that I could have dreamed of a few years ago, you know? yeah, still inspired to get new stuff because, you know, it's it's it's cool to keep it is qu yeah, keeping it fun and and sometimes trading stuff, getting out of a of of a rut by sending a synth and getting a new one or whatever. Just is it's good, but I think the the the

Brian Funk (17:31.103)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (17:36.255)

Yeah, it's new stuff. It's fun.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (17:51.422)

The Instagram culture and YouTube. I'm a big YouTube kid. And it and I had to unfollow a lot of musical gear pages because y you always feel like you're behind and you you don't have enough stuff. And and now I'm I'm trying to get back to this twelve, thirteen years old of myself who spends who spent like months with one pedal and and could get lost in the sound. I think what you said is really resonating with me. This this

I yeah. Like it's not just that we can't make it.

Brian Funk (18:23.787)

Yeah, I used to really get to know the things I had. Really 'cause there was no other choice. I mean, sh I fantasized about all the things we have now and all the capabilities we have, but I got a lot of creative work done trying to figure out ways around it. And I do think I've over bloated my computer. I'm sorry your computer went down.

I do have this kind of twisted fantasy of my own though of that happening so I could just start fresh. Like no samples, no plugins and and just add things in as I see fit and I need. I actually got a a lot of use out of a plug in uninstaller. I paid a couple of bucks for one I found somewhere and it searches I originally got it for duplicates, but then I was kinda like, you know, like I never use this one. I never use this one. And

got a little kind of disciplined on saying, like, if I'm not using it, it's getting in my way, it's distracting me really. So yeah, the the too much choice thing is we do that to ourselves sometimes. Hm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (19:38.389)

Yeah, we do, and I think it's just almost a a

overall social thing in in general and that we have in our lives. I don't want to get into like capitalism or whatever, but we just tend to accumulate and and I'm also a big fan of Rick Rubin and I I just love the the way he he used to say that he it what he wasn't producing music, it was reducing music. And I always like that kind of my mindset, you know? Even though Beyond took me two years and it was a lot about layering and

Brian Funk (20:05.253)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (20:14.727)

It was a a lot of sculpting the sound and it required that amount of presence presence and but but yeah, I also tried to get away from from accumulating sound or accumulating plugins. Because in the end in in the end I'm yeah, I'm looking at my plugin list. I have my favorite favorite

folder in Ableton and it's really only what I'm using mostly ninety eight percent of the time. Yeah.

Brian Funk (20:51.241)

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's a good way to do it. That is a cool way to think of it, reducing music. I I don't think I mention this maybe, but I teach high school English and teach writing and so often the question if I have a writing assignment is how many words, how long does it have to be? And it's I hate this question so much because it it implies more words are better. So

If I'll say I say three hundred words, then you're just gonna put words on the paper until you get to three hundred and more and more is bet your sentences get long winded. But in reality it's it's about how few words can you do it in? That's what I want it to be. And I think even musically, it kind of occurred to me as you were speaking, we

OVERSEA (sebastien) (21:39.375)

Yeah, but

Brian Funk (21:47.603)

almost feel like it it needs to have lots of tracks. You know, it needs it's almost impressive to say, like, yeah, this last song I produced has, you know, ninety-six tracks and you know, seventy-two of them are vocals and all of these kind of things, which sometimes is great, but I'm really getting into the idea of like how few can I use also, 'cause almost like the gear

I can't appreciate all these little sounds and these little textures if there's a hundred other little sounds and textures dancing around it at the same time. And I think you do a really nice job on your record of allowing us to take in these sounds and appreciate them. You've there's a lot going on. I'm not not saying that it's it's simple by any means, but you've

got a way of allowing the things to have their time and get some presence with the sound so we can listen to them. Yeah, that's an interesting that wind chime sound you have is playing and then it reverses and we can really hear it where it's not getting kinda washed away in the crowd of sounds.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (23:02.849)

Yeah, well thank you so much. I'm so glad it comes out that way because when I was prepping the promo for the album and I was also prepping for this podcast, I went back into the sessions and I was looking at some of the yeah, the songs and I was like, Jesus Christ, there's a lot of things I I don't even know that that were in, you know. And it's it's and it was my whole thing when I was producing was about making it as

I wanted I wanted it to feel like a living organism, like you would go in a forest. Nothing feels like too much, nothing feels like too less, it feels feels perfect as it is. Yet everything is evolving and everything is kind of a for informing the next move and the next little plant or the next little whatever living organism there is. And I and that's what I wanted to do, but it also requires sometimes of yeah, layers. And I'm thinking

of the one of the track is it's called Down Here. I was just listening to it the other day and it's it's a lot of track. It's just for the pads because I wanted them to feel like something was

Yeah, evolving, very living organism, a tapestry of sound that wouldn't feel stagnant. But yet there's there's yeah, another song feel that that's called here. There here is called double name. And it's it's only really f five tracks, vocals, a few ambient and a bass. It's you know, it sometimes the song requires more and I think it's a little bit like you were saying about the the

the assignment, the English in inside assignment. It's it's always about what is in service of the message, the conversation, the song, the the art, whatever the sculpture, whatever the the the convers I mean the the object is about. But it's it's really about what is serving, you know? And yeah, going back to the to the sessions, I also found that a lot of what I had done in my session were muted. And I was like, that's amazing.

Brian Funk (25:07.412)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (25:15.996)

I actually thought of moving like removing stuff. I didn't delete them for some reason because probably I was like fear of losing the idea. But it was muted. I was like, I didn't didn't remember muting these, but it's amazing because it really actually gives space for more to happen. So yeah, it's it was a mix of a lot of work, a lot of detail work and a lot of letting go as well. Just like, I think this.

Brian Funk (25:26.794)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (25:45.949)

This is done as as as is, yeah. So it's a hybrid hybrid thing.

Brian Funk (25:49.002)

Mm.

Brian Funk (25:53.865)

Yeah. Yeah, the mute button has been a friend for me. I I tend to like to build the stuff up and keep adding and adding. And then when it's time to do mixing or even really just arranging, it's almost like what's the least amount I can get away with now? Where is 'cause there's some weird paradox that happens,

I think guitar really taught me this, where you would think the more guitar layers I put in, the bigger the guitars are gonna sound. But it just sounds like a lot of little guitars now inside the music. Whereas if it was just one you could really hear it and it can be up front and all the little noises and textures and tiny details are very easy to pick up on. But as soon as you start layering in, it's they

There's like a point where it yeah, this sounds big, it sounds great and then you get down the road and you're like, Huh, why do the guitars sound so weak? And it's 'cause there's too many of them and they're just sort of blurring each other.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (26:57.331)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (27:04.655)

Yeah, it's the c character of of each song i each sound we use, I I feel like. And also not I I don't wanna feel like a nostalgic person, but I mean, I think in in the old days of music we we we did that a lot more, you know, just focusing on the sound and getting the right sound from the get-go, you know, from the source had to be good and we didn't rely so much on the post-production. It was it was really about how can we get this sound to

Brian Funk (27:25.065)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (27:34.598)

Sound good, this guitar and how can we get the

the performance as well. I think it was a lot more about the the living music, you know. and and today we tend it's probably also this gear thing we're go going back to this conversation, it's we tend to forget about just the performance and the humanity of it, you know, just just putting ourselves into the music. It's so easy to comp stuff, to edit and to get that perfect take and and we

We all know about that, but w what if it's a little bit wrong? What if it's a little bit out of time? And what if it's it's it's not being duplicated? Even my some of the the yeah, this the synth line bass synth I'm doing in one of the song, originally it was just one loop.

that I it was a midi clip that I looked and lit also a at the final stage of the the album of mixing the album I I thought I think I should just replay that through the same synth but not having it played as a midi clip played four times but just play it and even though it might not change everything, it will give some humanity to it. And to me i it was a lot about that, especially with this album

I wanted I wanted it to feel yeah, a living organism so I didn't want it to feel too perfect. I think we have a lot of perfect around us or pseudo perfect, you know? And just the way you were saying it, the the more guitars might not be the best. And I'm guilty of it too, you know. I get booked to record guitars remotely and my tendency is to send twenty guitars for one song and then I'm listening back to

OVERSEA (sebastien) (29:31.206)

the song once once once the artist is finished producing it and they only send back I mean the the finished song is only two guitars I sent and I'm like wow you're right that was enough. I need to go back to channeling my Rick rubbing a little bit, you know? But it's a it's always so interesting.

Brian Funk (29:41.899)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Hm. I think that's a cool thing to do, like you said, playing like the MIDI clip out. You know, in that case, are you performing it or are you just letting it play through performance? So so the timing is gonna change a little, subtle velocity differences and yeah, all of that. You might not notice

OVERSEA (sebastien) (30:03.99)

Performance. Performance. Yeah. Yeah. I I think so. means that

Brian Funk (30:19.283)

But I do think you feel. I I really do. I think we kinda our brain sort of recognizes when something's kind of being like photocopied over and over again and spit back out compared to when it's not and it it's a little more fluid.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (30:38.806)

Yeah, and I think it works for s for certain genres or even for certain songs. I'm not very it might not be genre specific, but some certain songs feel good when it's very, very tightly repetitive. And and and it can also get you into a trance state, you know? It's it's very interesting how how we can use this to inform brain waves. But in general, especially with this album I wanted

Brian Funk (30:39.016)

Those are

Brian Funk (30:44.446)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (31:04.492)

really wanted it to feel fluid and and just very very nature like so that's why I I I really took as much time as possible to make make sure I was playing most of the stuff and and not just yeah duplicated the the midi clips which is yeah not not bad in itself but that was my kind of memo and my kind of momentum at that time

Brian Funk (31:33.0)

Yeah. Yeah, and that's I mean, obviously I think probably almost everybody listening now w does that on some level and it's great you can you can duplicate out those MIDI clips and hear what the song sounds like over time without having to play everything. And you can't like you you did, you can go back and edit if you want, but yeah, sometimes it works too. Maybe we're in a time too where

we want a little more humanity. We're seeing a lot of computer generated, AI generated stuff all the time. And it is nice to know you're getting something alive and breathing. And something even just about the fact that you decided to take the effort to perform it when you could have just done that.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (32:16.908)

I think we could do that if you just have it out there.

Brian Funk (32:26.801)

It's that little bit of little bit of sweat in the creative product creative process I guess that is kinda nice to know that some effort went into it, that it wasn't just the technology taking over. I'm appreciating that much more these days than ever before.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (32:43.193)

Yeah and Yeah. Same, same, especially yeah, with the the the rise of the AI world and

I think we want more human behind the stuff we read, we listen, we watch, we even our emails sometimes I'm like, this feels like it's it's a Chat GPT email, you know? I'm like Who's who's the real person behind this email? I don't wanna send back a a Chat GPT email, you know? It's like I we're not having a conversation, it's just our different yeah, AI machine or whatever to

Brian Funk (33:20.443)

I get so many of those. just send me the prompt. Courteous email asking for, you know, whatever. Cause it feels deceitful. I and I get it for the podcast a lot. I get these emails that are just AI and they fool me and and I get upset 'cause it used to be w all of the I don't know, like PR people I guess are sending me

OVERSEA (sebastien) (33:24.276)

Yeah, easier. Just create a key.

Brian Funk (33:48.741)

emails that they're sending to every podcast. They're just blasting them out. And I could tell in the past I this is just one of these emails. There's nothing personal in it. We love your podcast and it what's a music production podcast in like a different font than the rest of the email counts on. But now it's saying things like, your Sebastian your c your Sebastian conversation was so interesting. How you guys talked about the mergence of electric guitars meets el electronic instrument

You know, gives me a little bit of a thing in there that is very specific detail about some conversation and then they ask me if I wanna have like you know, like an auto mechanic on the show. It's like so unrelated after that. Like I I find that really frustrating and those those are though, they're they're just an easy delete. I mean, I'm not getting a person. I feel like I don't they're not expecting me to get back to them. They're not waiting for me.

But I what bothers me about that I guess is that there are other people like like you, for instance, when we started speaking, I you were human, I could tell right away, but as this technology starts mimicking in that, I'm afraid I'm gonna start missing it when a real person is writing me something genuine and heartfelt. It's gonna be confusing and you know

OVERSEA (sebastien) (35:07.802)

For sure. It yeah, it's it's it's slowly st it's tasked to creep in, right? Yeah.

Brian Funk (35:17.448)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (35:18.176)

Even in the music industry and and it it's it's yeah, it's I'm not kind of against it in in any way. I think it's it's beautiful to have the tools to help us focus on other stuff. But I'm I'm very aware that we are human beings and we are in a living world and it's it's especially going back to art, it's it's about our own expression and our

way to experience the world and experience certain yeah, I I talk a lot about about transcendental experiences, but whatever it is, you know, whatever you experience in life, it this is what makes people want to listen to music. whether it's gospel or you know, or electronic music today, it's it's it's about who it is to sing this story with sound, with words, with painting, you know, with colours, whatever.

whatever it is I think it's it's it's for me this is all about it. Otherwise it doesn't make sense if I'm not having this devotion for humanity in a way and and to create music for someone who will appreciate it it's I'm not making it for the for the the the bots I'm making it for the the the human beings and and in that way I feel like I have a responsibility towards the

people who listen to my music and to and and the people who will listen, you know, especially because I'm I'm in a sp specific kind of musical world slash yeah, it's it I have this bridge with with neuroscience and I work a lot with meditation and and different type of practices. I feel like it's all about the intention we have in what we do and I I I couldn't feel I I couldn't look myself in the mirror

Or if I was not make pouring my heart and my soul into the the work I'm doing and taking I don't know shortcuts with with AI, it wouldn't feel right for me. But again, this is just my point of view. I'm not against it, but in in the

OVERSEA (sebastien) (37:37.923)

work I do, I feel like I have this I have to have this devotion because it it makes the the the the experience I'm I hope to give a bit more real or just just a bit more human. True, true, yeah.

Brian Funk (37:54.098)

But

Yeah. Yeah, I guess I have the problem with the deceit of it, the mimicking of it. but obviously there's there's great uses and all of that. but I I can see where you're coming from, especially with the style of music you're you've just put out, that you wanted to have that. I'm kind of interested in what you said about like the meditative stuff and the

almost like scientific aspect of it that you're you were getting at. because also, before we started recording, we were just kinda chatting and you mentioned surfing and it's something I I've liked to do in the past though. I've had a little time off. I don't know if I'm allowed to label myself a surfer right now, but I love it and so much of it is that meditative aspect. It's not unlike

I'm like for surfing, it's not anything other than just enjoying the time doing it. I'm not trying to really get better or compete or anything like that. it's sit it's enjoying sitting out on the ocean and if a wave comes, going with it. But it is one of those things a lot like music where when you're doing it, everything else kind of melts away. So y you you

Go out there and whatever's on your mind, whatever's bothering you, you get a break from it. 'Cause there there are moments of intensity, you know, in there where you can't be thinking about other things. And that break I find to be really nice 'cause then you get out of the water and now you're on a different angle. You're you're looking at whatever's going on in life from a new perspective. You're not just stewing in those thoughts that are taking over your mind.

Brian Funk (39:49.585)

So I what I was originally thinking was like kind of this idea that there's these meditative qualities to being in the zone of making music too. and there's parallels with that, with something like surfing. But I'm kind of interested now where you're going with some of that other stuff you just mentioned.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (39:52.03)

There's really good pieces.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (40:11.133)

man, there's so much I want to to talk about right now. Well, just to touch on the the surf topic, because I think it it it it really is similar to music in a way. It's that flow state you're talking about. That very

Brian Funk (40:12.648)

Yeah, I i it feels like we just found something.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (40:31.849)

very unique moment where nothing else exists. And I think this is one of the most beautiful thing we can ever experience as as as beings, you know. It's like being I don't I don't wanna sound too corny or tore or t or too spiritual woo-woo but it's but being here now, you know? And it's it's it really is that feeling. And I think to me it's surfing is is is a lot like you were saying is

I'm I'm not surfing to get to be a pro. It's not my path, but I'm surfing to be out in the ocean and and just out in the surf. And I I think I had some of my most mystical experience out there. You know, in the morning with the when the lights the light comes out, the sun comes out. It's it's so magical. And and a lot of it is is is a buffer for me because I'm I've I've been working a lot in the studio and

When I need that that buffer, I find that same flow state that I can have in my studio. But as you said, with a different angle, you're looking at even just just the way of being in the water and looking at the ocean and looking at the cliffs or the the beach wherever you are. But it makes you look at things differently. And and for this album and going back to this conversation about meditation and flow.

I've over the last few years, so much of my music has been about creating s soundscapes and and spaces almost in music to be able to experience something transcendental or something meditative or something just just rest. I think I I wanted to question my own status quo about music.

I was an I was in a band, I toured the world with my rock psychedelic band for years and it it w it was it was a fun a fun way to look at music and I am not separating music into better or if if it served this or if it doesn't it doesn't make it better or worse. But today I wanted to make a music that served another part of us.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (42:48.559)

the part that needed rest or needed to as you were saying this morning, just listening to the song and kind of feel at ease or work on the nervous system in a different way. And also have been very passionated and and did some research in my degree and my master degree especially around brainwave therapies and how we can use music to support

Brian Funk (43:12.539)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (43:16.176)

support us as living beings and and just support our creative states, our rest restes and and this is was this was a big part of of Beyond, but I think it's just a big part of my music at the moment and the music I've been doing for with oversee, you know, this project of mine. Was it was a lot more about this type of space than than than it was before.

And and today for me I think the music is is is is a medicine. Again, I don't wanna sound too sp spiritual woo-woo slash corny, but it is a medicine for me, you know? And I think it it it has been for years and there is there are t I mean tons of research that show how that shows how music was was

Brian Funk (43:56.283)

Right.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (44:11.82)

a tool in the past and still is, you know. And I've been very intrigued by how therapeutic music can be and how we can use it and and bridge bridge the ancestral knowledge with the neuroscience knowledge that we have today and and have this bridge and this conversation with the two worlds. And that's often why I say that I do electroacoustic music because

It's not so electronic, it's not so acoustic, but it's a bit of both. And I think it's it's it's a reflection of this these two worlds, you know, the ancestral knowledge of music and and and and this magic that we we we had. E even like when we listened to gospel or or the first blues songs, you you feel that this there's something of the

Brian Funk (44:54.663)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (45:02.018)

the heart and the soul and and and it kind of evolved and and beautiful but I I'm I'm interested in into going back to this and creating these these soundscapes, these spaces and beyond for me was was really a space, you know. I wanted to create a a space that you can walk in and maybe have a breath work, maybe have a

I I'm working with also psychologists that that work with psychedelic therapies and I y you know, I wanted to have this this bridge and explore this with with music. So this is really w where I'm at with the music and and beyond was created, constructed that way.

Brian Funk (45:50.258)

Well, the album title makes a lot more sense now. Right. You know, I I understand your caveat, I guess, of not to get too spiritual woo-woo and all that. but it is something I think we kind of can't deny that something is happening. when you're

OVERSEA (sebastien) (45:53.098)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (46:17.009)

If you're at a concert and you're having this kind of communal experience with all these strangers, like when you're there, it's it's real. It something's definitely going on. And I know we don't have all the data and it's hard stuff to collect data on, but I don't think you really need it to know that it's happening. it's it's very interesting to find out what it actually is and the science behind it.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (46:21.264)

It's a very interesting thing to find out there actually.

Brian Funk (46:47.323)

But yeah, it is very therapeutic and medicinal in a lot of ways. It's maybe not the same as taking like I don't know, like a a pill to make a headache go away or something. But it it has real effects. I mean, I think my life would be a lot different without that, without that release. All those times I've come to make music and take time away from life and get a breather.

to not be ruminating on thoughts and caught up in the cycle that just, you know, to think about just the way our minds work, where we have a thought and you get on it like it's a train and you it's it could be total fiction. This they're mad at me. That text message came out and you just suddenly you're off to the races and you're in this whole other place.

And it can be just totally made up in your own head. But if I could add up all the times something like a a music session took me out of that and brought me back and give me a little perspective, I think that's probably very significant and I'd probably be a much different person and have much different relationships, I'm sure. I'd be much less tolerable of a person without all of that going on.

There's something real going on there. And surfing is like that too, that gives you that. And surfing is really interesting in that it takes a lot of these kind of abstract concepts like flow and

those types of states and it's real physical. Like you have to literally ride the wave. You can't fight the ocean. Like you'll never win. And and when you work with the ocean, it it's almost easy. It's fluid. It's it's you know, you just kinda coast. But when you try to fight it, it just smashes you.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (48:40.47)

No. No.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (48:56.14)

Yeah, again, it feels like a conversation, right? You know, it's like i y you have the an information coming at you and it's how how will you respond to it and how will you flow with it? And there is it's so funny that we're having this conversation because I was part of a project called Waves of Life two years ago which

Brian Funk (49:17.904)

Waves of life.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (49:18.892)

Waves of life, yeah. And it was all about that, you know, how art or surfing and and all this type of concept can actually be teachings for our wor for I mean for our lives in in general. And and and also I'm just making the connection that one of the song of the album started when I was working on this waves of life because I w it it it felt so inspiring to me that t to to take this concept of i

Being in the flow, I think, as you said, it's it's a very

bizarre concept to to tou touch on, you know. And unless you're a musician or you're an artist or you're maybe you you in certain type of sport, I'm sure you get that as well. It's like you get in that zone, then you understand what it is, but most of the time we're we are far away from being in the flow. And and this is what's been interesting to me, you know, it's trying to

to help the process of being in the flow and kind of talk about it and be an advocate for it, you know, it's like th this is places we can go to and this is places that we are allowed to go to because I think there's also yeah the the the acceptance of it. But so anyway, I'm getting lost in the in the thought of it. But it's just

Brian Funk (50:52.342)

Mm-hmm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (50:54.083)

Just such an i an interesting topic and and you're you were seeing the the thoughts the thoughts train and th and stuff like this. I'm I'm a bit big meditation guy. I do two meditations a day, I do yoga every day, so it's it's a big part of my life. But but i in the end it's it's only to serve

me being a better person, a better musician and and just being a more I don't know what you said, but it was very funny the way you said it about music. Like if you hadn't music you would feel so different and i i it's the same for me and I think music is also a type of meditation and we have all these labels around meditation and around

Brian Funk (51:36.741)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (51:49.601)

what meditation should be or should look like and I think flow in a lot of of of the the moment we can feel flow is meditation as a at its best, you know, like if you get into a sound on your on your synth and you get in that moment where two, three hours pass by and you record something and it feels just right. And you didn't

see those two hours pass by. This is the isn't isn't this the most beautiful thing? You know? It's it's so medicinal for yourself and once you finish the piece of music it might be for someone else and this is the type of exchange I'm I'm really interested in, you know, and it's the conversation between the surf and the surfer, the musician and the music. And it it's it's all about that. That that's

Brian Funk (52:21.286)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (52:43.809)

That's part of the the work I'm trying to achieve. Yeah.

Brian Funk (52:49.456)

Hm. Yeah, it's nice. That is often the feeling I'm chasing is the getting lost in it and where everything kind of melts away, the time fades. It there is no time really. It there's nothing. There's just what's happening in the moment and it it always is refreshing and it's fun. It

the the hard parts of it even are enjoyable and I I think that's where I wanna be when I decide to start and can't always get there for one reason or another, but when you when you tap into it, it is just quite a cool place to be. And and you almost don't know you're there and and as soon as you realize you are, you you run the risk of popping out of it.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (53:45.086)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's it's a fine line.

Brian Funk (53:46.566)

But

OVERSEA (sebastien) (53:50.102)

I think there's there's interesting musician and composer that brought this aspect into music. I think I I'm thinking of of John Cage, you know, in the four I think it was it the forties, fifties, where he started to take classical music into a new a new direction and I'm also thinking I think the that guy name is Lum Le Mount Young, something like like this. Le Mount Young. I think he's a Canadian guy. Same area of

of John John Cage era. but I I remember seeing one of the music music partitions and music shit for one of the song and it's basically two notes. I think it's a B and an F charm. And the only indication that you have is play for a long time. And you only have those two notes and and it's kind of

This is the kind of concept I'm I'm very interesting in, you know, as a composer and as a musician and just as a being as well, as a meditation practitioner, whatever. It's just like having this experience that we are living beings and that we also are experiencing time into different in different ways and and music is such a beautiful way to get into it and and kind of

feel time, disappear and come back and and I think the work of these these guys, yeah, the minimalist guys in those days. I don't know if we we can really call them the minimalist, but

the those guys, John Cage, Le Mount DeYoung, those those type of composers, they are a good entry into this type of flow states. If it's hard to to experience this these states, I found them really inspiring and i I find that they were a very good way to practice it in the first place. Just like playing two notes on a keyboard and

OVERSEA (sebastien) (55:58.012)

waiting for I don't know two, three, four, five, ten minutes and suddenly you don't hear the same beef, B and F sharp the same way you you've heard it like for the past four minutes, it suddenly starts to shift and you get into that little bit of a interstellar feeling, you know and

Brian Funk (56:15.097)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (56:22.682)

everything d dis dissipate anyway. So I think this is a a very beautiful way to experiment different aspect of our of our human self. That's something I'm very passionate about.

Brian Funk (56:37.827)

It is funny that time gets perceived differently because it is so steady, right? It's just ticking along and we use it in music. It's time based. yet you can sort of lose track of it. We feel it differently all the time.

And sometimes the very repetitive rhythm of the music, the timing, takes us there. It it because we're so focused on the time, we almost lose it. Like maybe in a s in a way how if you listen to those two notes playing over time, I guess you start to hear the other frequencies, not just those fundamentals and they start to come together in new ways and you notice

almost like new sounds within it. New new layers of time. Something going on.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (57:36.386)

New layers of time. I like that. This is a good good good one.

Brian Funk (57:41.495)

Yeah.

I wanna I because this is like we can spend a lot of time here too. but y one of the things you mentioned was like using Ableton Live as an instrument. And I think this is a really fun way to look at it. It's kind of how I got into it. I'd been playing music recording and got into some other DAWs and always sort of felt like I was making music against it. And

what I really loved about recording and all the things I found interesting, all my favorite artists too did this. They experimented with the studio like it was an instrument and played it. And then when I finally wrapped my head around Ableton Live, I was like, this is the studio's an instrument now. It's part of my creative process. And I got real excited about that. So I'm kinda curious how that is for you, how you use it like an instrument.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (58:42.061)

Yeah, well, very similar story. I started, you know, I started recording music. I was 12 and I was using a very early version of Pro Tools. And and then I moved on to Logic Pro because I was in the UK learning I was in at a music college in in the UK and everyone was using Logic Pro, so I moved on to Logic Pro.

and and it's it was more recently I got into Ableton because similar similar story most of my music inspiration and and favorite artists were were using Ableton and and first of all the way I found it so interesting is that especially in the beginning

You know, when you're learning an instrument, y you're learning to work with the resistance of the instrument. So if you play guitar, you have the frets and the the the strings and there is so many little details of resistance that you have to learn about. And and learning Ableton was so different. I mean, to me, it felt like another world.

than l than Pro Tools, you know, like even though like even the way it's it's presented on the page, everything is on the left, you know, in in in Pro Tools and and all the input and everything. I mean the the the important stuff are on the right in in in Ableton. And it felt like an instrument in that way for me because it felt like I had so much resistance to learn again, you know, and it it felt like I needed to have this

I mean the word conversation comes up again. It was it was a very more it was it was a lot more of a conversation between what I could do, what I wanted to do, and it it was it was very much in the service of how can I create sound with it. Whereas before it was just serving, you know, Pro Tools was just serving me as a

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:00:58.868)

as a yeah, as a studio to record my music, basically. And suddenly Ableton kind of opened up that space and the little resistance I f I felt like I'm I I feel like I'm holding a guitar but Ableton was the same, you know, it was learning the resistance of the the the the DAW but it was it was an instrument to me around around that time already.

And then, you know, I was I was always having like this joke with my my best friend who's an incredible producer aga also. I was like, I'd I would love to get into modular synth, but I will do that when I'm fifty, because before it's it's too much for me. But what I found in Ableton was exactly what I was looking in modular synth, you know, is that kind of

Brian Funk (01:01:47.598)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:01:52.856)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:01:56.905)

infinite possibility of choices and way of using the plugins and it's it's very more cre I mean to me it feels a lot more creative than how Pro Tools felt a few years ago when I was still using it, you know. And the plugin chain and the way you can create plug-in racks. It's still very new to me. I still feel like I'm learning the instrument as I go. You know and I think beyond was a a

It was a it was a the Ableton Academy for me, you know, because there were places I wanted to go with the psychoacoustics, the places I wanted to go with the music in general and the way I wanted it to feel. Again, I wanted to the music to feel like a place, a space you w you would go into. And and Ableton was allowing me to do this, but it was it was a lot of learn as I as I yeah, learning as I was doing it.

Brian Funk (01:02:30.372)

Mm-hmm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:02:55.611)

And and again I was as I was prepping for this podcast, I I was going back to the to the sessions and and realizing that so much of the combinations and and so much of how I use the plugins and how they interacted with each other, I I could have never done or perhaps never thought of in in Pro Tools. And I'm not trashing Pro Tools because I think I still think it's an amazing DAW for

You know, I think it's it's it's different instruments, you know. And and today Ableton i it really is in the service of what I'm trying to do. A lot more than than yeah, Pro Tools or Logic had been in the past. And and I think to me it's it's really this modular mind that made it for me. And still feel like I can explore a lot more. I'm not a big

Brian Funk (01:03:28.91)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:03:53.608)

gig guy so I I'm not I I'm not yet into the Max for live world but perhaps that will open up in the the next few years. I I do have a few devices and stuff but you know I'm not a I'm I'm not so much of a of a developer guy or yeah crazy intelligent person like that. But I'm very fascinated by it, you know.

Brian Funk (01:04:14.104)

Yeah. Me neither.

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:04:20.151)

But yeah, the instrument for me, yeah, Ableton, the instrument is is the modulo synth I was looking for. But a lot cheaper because I I know that we have a lot of sense.

Brian Funk (01:04:26.978)

Hmm. Yeah. I think that's what kept me out of modular synths was just financial restrictions, you know, because you can really go wild there. but they they have built so much inside a live that it really does feel like a modular synth. You can drop LFOs and have it modulate anything and all these envelope followers and you get a lot of cool interaction.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:04:51.684)

Yeah. Yeah, and also I was I was getting into generative music back like a few years ago and I was listening to a lot of Brianino and I mean Ableton was so good for me to experiment this, you know, with yeah the LFOs and you just use a very slow LFO on one

Brian Funk (01:04:56.024)

with your music that way. Are

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:05:18.156)

one little macro that you want to assign to and and to anything, you know? And it it just felt very very living. Again, I'm going back to this word, but it's really what I'm trying to do in music. It's it's it does I don't want it to feel too stagnant or too static. And and Ableton is so good for that. So good.

Brian Funk (01:05:31.874)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:05:46.5)

Well that's what we love about instruments, I think, too. your guitar. Every time you play a single note, it's different. It's it's subtle, but it's different. It's slightly different. And if you watch the notes on the tuner, they're n they're not right on the green dot perfectly in tune, they kinda waver around it. And even

Hardware synthesizers have a little bit of that where some days there's something funny going on and they just respond a little bit differently. And you can really program a lot of that stuff in. Like you said, you can decide more now. Instead of I I have an old Moog, it's like the Radio Shack Mogue. It was the let's see the MG one, the concertmate. So it was like a cheaper consumer style.

synthesizer from the eighties and it sounds really awesome but it's a little bit broken. Right now it's like kind of broken in a cool way where I can get some fun stuff out of it. But I can imagine a little bit further down the road it's a problem. I tape machine too, where you know f until I had it serviced recently, but before that it was almost unusable. It was just problems with it.

In live you can decide. All right, I want it to be like, you know, I'm gonna take that slow LFO and I'm gonna just put it on the pitch of this synth. And it's gonna just happen sort of randomly over time, but only this much, you know. N not to a degree where it ruins the music, but enough where it just helps it breathe a little bit. and the ability to make those decisions is a lot of fun and I think it does make for some more

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:07:23.235)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:36.78)

organic, lively sounding music when you start adding those things up.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:07:39.64)

Yeah, organic too is organic is definitely the word and that's how I use it. It's I try to use it as organic as possible as possible. And and and and really feels like an extension to the synth for me, Ableton. And it's it's almost a a synth recording station and and and yeah, beyond was so much of the songs there were LFOs and LFOs and LFOs and LFOs triggering small stuff and

And everything it was really my my thing at that time, you know, when I was making the album. I want everything to feel like it's moving and like a breathing organism and and the tapestry of sound couldn't feel static. And yeah, Ableton was a game changer in the way that it really opened up my my musical perspective onto what I could do. Never thought I could do that before. And also the attention to detail I could have I could go into

to with Ableton just just was not in in my headspace or in my my view before using Ableton for sure.

Brian Funk (01:08:54.627)

Do you work inside the session view at all?

Like the clip based view?

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:09:02.323)

No, mostly arrangement. Clip based, I mostly use it for life for when I'm taking stuff live. because I'm also I'm an D for s for artist and I also work for them and building Ableton live sessions for certain shows. And I like using the this view for for this but mo when I'm writing or composing I'm I'm still

Brian Funk (01:09:04.728)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:09:32.277)

old school in the way I I I like to see the arrangement.

Brian Funk (01:09:37.25)

Yeah, I mean, eventually you always have to get there, right? Like if you ever want to export anything, it does need to get to the arrangement. I was sort of just thinking about how when you're in that session view, you're nonlinear, so you don't have to think about the timeline as much. And that was something that I got really into early on because I was like, cool, I can have a bunch of musical ideas.

And instead of just putting them down and hoping it works and then trying to move them around if they don't, I can just kind of trigger them and jam on the arrangement, which I thought was a really exciting new way to write music in that. Okay, so I've got these ideas swirling in my head. What happens if I go here? And then I go here and the drums from the verse will happen in the chorus. That was cool. I didn't expect that. You can kind of mix things up in a fun way.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:10:13.515)

Yeah, that's right. There's probably thirty thing covered for you. But this have your item for your part of time as well.

Brian Funk (01:10:36.183)

But it's you still have your timing, but you're off the timeline. Right. So we it again, like to come back to this concept of like losing track of time and I find that to be a lot of fun to just sort of jamming on these things and sometimes you're doing it for twenty minutes and discovering how the parts should connect and how things should interact with each other in a

Totally new way, almost like you would with people playing music with them.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:11:09.366)

True. Yeah, it's actually now that you s that that you talk about it first it it makes me want to do it. So thank you for the inspiration. a lot more. And and also yeah because I also do some

Brian Funk (01:11:18.485)

Mm-hmm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:11:25.977)

live version of this album and I also do a lot of soundbath but I don't like to call them soundbath because I think they are too attached to this specific label of spiritual world soundbath. But I I do a modern version of it and I do use the clip view for for for that. And to me going back to that is how you can combine things combine things the way you would have never

thought of but because you are in the flow, you are in the moment of it. You think it's it's these I don't know these synth I have in in there. If I put them with waves that I recorded in Portugal and I put them together, how will they interact? And if I add this vocal part I recorded and this things that I would have never thought about even yeah a few years ago.

Brian Funk (01:11:57.347)

Mm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:12:23.983)

I I I actually do them, so thank you because I didn't think about it, but I I never took them into a composition state. So it's something I'm definitely inspired to do now. Definitely inspired to try that. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:38.359)

Hmm. cool. Yeah, you just hit that record button at the top and anything you do in your session view just gets printed. And yeah, I I often will when I'm coming up with a song, just sort of do that for a while and then listen back and hear if anything cool happened and then then it's like the reduction process of the production process just to figure out, okay, it's not gonna be twenty minutes long, but

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:13:03.299)

Yeah. Yeah, and the surprises, that's that's the beauty. I I always think this yeah, yeah, the surprises and feeling like it's it's not

Brian Funk (01:13:08.083)

What what are the highlights and that kind of stuff?

Brian Funk (01:13:14.945)

Yeah. It leads to a lot of that, yeah. The surprises.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:13:22.144)

I don't know w where you sit with this, but I feel like when I'm making music I feel connected to some kind of source or that's how I like to call it. Some people might call it God or universe or whatever, Buddha.

I like to call it the source and and sometimes I feel like it I'm not making the choice not just on my own. I'm kind of guided to make certain choices. And I feel like it's a good way to open up to maybe it's just a question of surprises. maybe it's serendipity, may I d I don't know what it is. In the end, whatever.

if we believe it or not. But it's it's such a beautiful way to to get to experience stuff you wouldn't have thought about. And I think it to me Ableton i it is about that in general. It's I mean for me it was a big a big turning point in in recorded music in on my on my on my journey, you know. Everything was being questioned in the in the best way, you know.

Brian Funk (01:14:27.81)

Mm.

Yeah. Right. Yeah, it it does sometimes feel that way. Yeah, it's mist it's a mysterious thing. There's it doesn't always feel like you're doing it. And sometimes it feels like you're finding it, like I like you have a net and you just caught it or or sometimes it's coming through you. But yeah, I'm okay with like those sort of magical explanations.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:14:42.375)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:59.732)

I think that's I I only think that helps me get there and it sort of takes me off the hook a little bit to kind of think in those terms too, where it's not really me, it's just you know, it's you find these songs, you find these ideas or they come to you or they come through you. it's like you as long as you're working, it's like having the like T V antenna up

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:15:04.174)

L C One

Brian Funk (01:15:28.726)

Like you can connect, like but you have to sort of do your part of starting things up.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:15:36.29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I I mean, I can think of multiple times in in this album where I I kind of felt like I had to do the music I was hearing in my head. especially there's one song called Behind Your Heart. I just had the baseline for this song, which is the big sub. It's kind of the central piece of the album. And

I had this bass idea. It was coming from my prophet and it was sitting in my computer for weeks. There was one Sunday I woke up and I had the whole sound, the whole song, the whole melodies and everything in my head. And it felt like it it I couldn't have

think that myself, you know, it was just it was something else. So I was like I was telling my opponent, I was like, I'm sorry, I I'm gonna have this Sunday without you. I'm so sorry, but I need to get in the studio because this this thing is almost like chatter. I can't hear you talk to me. I need to get into the studio and and put these ideas onto the into the yeah and and record them.

And it's it's it's this practice of to me, it feels like it's a practice of being here, being present, but also practicing the music, the the the synth, the guitar, being able to being in in service of those moments so you can flow and

just not think about the technicalities of it, you know, and and and just be in the flow and know your know your tool and also that's one thing to go back to one of the the the earlier conversation is is when we accumulate too much stuff we tend not to know them as much, you know, with the gear. And when you get to that state where you know your pedals, you know your synth

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:17:39.16)

when these ideas, this inspiration strikes in, you are able to go full in because you don't have to read the manual kind of vibe, you know? And and this is this is really what I'm not chasing

Brian Funk (01:17:48.288)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:17:54.97)

Chasing wouldn't be the right word, I don't really like it, but yeah, kind of being ready for when the inspiration hits, being ready to deliver and and and and be in response to this. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:18:09.706)

Yeah, kind of be in shape. Like musically in shape. And yeah, I find that also just with the actual setup too, understanding how things are working and being aware. I mean there's nothing that kills a creative moment than like, how's this work? Well how do I figure this thing out? So it's good to Yeah, it's funny, right? All these things, like you have to be open to it, but you have to also

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:18:31.787)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:18:39.306)

kinda do the practice, the exercise of it and you gotta go with the flow with it, you gotta be receptive, you gotta also know when to take control. There's so many different kinds of like mindsets you gotta get into and you gotta know when to do it and when not to.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:19:02.183)

I think it's such a beautiful mirror to what being a musician is. Or an artist in general, isn't it? Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:19:04.065)

Yeah.

Yeah. Man, just a human really, right?

Hmm. Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:19:14.387)

being flexible in those in in all those dimensions.

Brian Funk (01:19:19.038)

Mhm. Yeah. Well it's another reason why I think doing this has been very healthy for me as a person. So to get back to some of the stuff you were saying earlier, there there's a I can't measure it, you know. I c it's not like I can step on the scale and see I've lost weight or gained weight, but it's undeniable that all these little things over time have

Definitely helped me in a lot of levels.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:19:51.462)

Yeah. Is it is an academy, isn't it? Academy of life. Some some sort of how to be a be a being.

Brian Funk (01:19:55.776)

Yeah. Yeah. So

Brian Funk (01:20:02.997)

Yeah, it's amazing. Well the record is awesome. beyond is definitely worth checking out. And there's a lot of ways you can enjoy it too. I mean, you can sit there and th this is like I think I think this is Brian Eno's definition too, right? Like ambient music where you can as easily deeply pay attention to it as you can almost just let it play. And it works even on my car ride this morning, like it was there were moments where I was really listening. I like, wow, what's going on here? And trying to figure out like

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:20:24.361)

Yeah,

Brian Funk (01:20:32.821)

the mechanics of it, like how you got those sounds. And then there's other times when I kind of almost forgot it was playing. You know, it was just coloring the experience. so I love music like that that can do both. There's some music that, you know, as much as I love it, like I can't put on at certain times. And this this kind of music, what you've done with Beyond, is it's very flexible.

To use your word as well for a lot of situations.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:21:06.435)

Thank you. Well I'm I'm so glad. Thank you for it's so great to have the conversation around those topics because I mean as you can see I'm very

passionated about those topics and and and and beyond was a reflection about all of this. I wanted to I wanted to create a a a a full arc, you know, a full transcendental arc. But also being able to dip your toes and just play one song that you like or just one song for certain moment of your life. but still if you want to have a full introspective or psychonautic experience you can

Brian Funk (01:21:18.283)

Yeah.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:21:45.862)

have with the album so I'm yeah thank you so much for this word flexibility 'cause kind of yeah yeah thank you yeah yeah

Brian Funk (01:21:57.58)

Well c well, cool. so if people look up Oversea Beyond, they'll find it pretty much everywhere, it seems like, right? I th your website I got here, h dash music dot CH, right? Where people can kind of find like the overview of stuff.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:22:10.97)

Yeah, that's that's my label. Yeah, yeah. All the music, all the different projects, but yeah, mostly focusing on focusing on oversea right now, which yeah, y as you know in in an artist career you have different iteration of your work and I think overseas is is the most aligned for me right now. So this is the path for me at the moment.

Brian Funk (01:22:37.173)

Hm. Yeah. It sounds like it's speaking to you. Yeah, I I really see it's the connection through everything. That's pretty cool how you found all these and some of these different aspects too, with the brain and and the science and the nature. Yeah, I mean, science and nature are are sometimes seen as opposing forces, but I think it's probably more just the

mechanism of nature in a lot of ways.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:23:08.586)

Exactly. And yeah, I don't see the the difference so much these days.

Brian Funk (01:23:15.659)

Hmm. Very cool. Well, thanks for doing this. This is awesome.

OVERSEA (sebastien) (01:23:20.101)

Of course, thanks for having me, Brian. So much so much fun.

Brian Funk (01:23:24.585)

Yeah, and thank you to our listeners for sticking with us. definitely check out Oversea Beyond. you won't regret it. A lot of cool music, great vibes, energy, all that stuff, which I'm sure you probably know just based on this conversation. So thanks a lot. Have a good day.

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Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.442)

Josh, welcome aboard to the music production podcast. Good to have you.

Lomotor (00:05.205)

Thank you. Thanks very much. It's an honor to be here, really.

Brian Funk (00:09.922)

I've been loving your work, Low Motor. You seem to have a lot of kind of philosophical things in common with me, things that I'm interested in, the way I like to make music, the organic thing, kind of some of your philosophies and love the videos you're doing, the jams, the outdoor adventures. It's really awesome and it's inspiring. I'm listening to your music and I'm excited to kind of...

steal some inspiration and steal some of your ideas and repurpose them. To me that's my favorite thing I get out of music a lot of the time or at least one of them is that feeling that makes me want to make music too. So I'm very excited to find your work and learn more about what you do.

Lomotor (00:42.337)

you

Lomotor (00:56.043)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:01.483)

Thanks, are very kind words. I appreciate it. Yeah, with music, and that's a lot right there, music for me is, it's not worth doing if you're just copying something, which isn't to say that like, you can't learn from, you know, I listen to music analytically all the time. Well, how did they get that bass or how did they get that sound just to make myself better? But I always try to put.

something that feels true to myself and my soul into the music. Sometimes that means sampling from my world. I live out in the woods, a lot of that's sampling nature sounds and tweaking them in Ableton. But sometimes it might just mean something kind of just a little touch of something that's just a preset that I did myself. I would never want to just, you know, just kind of cut and paste from Splice or something.

call it my song. I mean people do that and that's from some of that sounds great. just for me it's it's more fun it's more fulfilling to do it to put more of yourself into the music.

Brian Funk (02:12.664)

Hmm. Yeah, I feel the same way. And something that comes up a lot on this podcast and just in now how I think about making music is the story behind it. Kind of like, like for instance, I could pull up on AmpliTube, right? Guitar amp simulator. I could probably get like a really awesome sound that's like a kind of exactly what I need because it has everything and they sound really good.

But if I decide to say, crank my amp and put a microphone in the bathroom or maybe in the washing machine that's hidden behind the curtain here, you know, to me that that's an interesting story. Like, Ooh, let's see what that's going to do. And how am I going to use this in the song? And I think it just makes for a better story for the listener than, yeah, I just pulled up a really cool preset on Amplitube or, even I designed my own preset on Amplitube.

Lomotor (02:49.633)

You

Lomotor (03:06.731)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:10.264)

But that kind of effort in the world of doing something kind of outrageous and to see what you get is very exciting. And it kind of shows you that you can, even if you're making stuff in a computer, in the box, or even if it's very electronic, you can really get creative with just your environment and the things around you.

Lomotor (03:31.499)

Yeah, definitely. And even if it's subtle, I think that that kind of thing is cumulative in tracks, right? So somebody might, nobody's ever going to hear like, that guitar was recorded, mic'd from a laundry, from a washing machine, right? But, it might sound, you know, maybe to a, right. But it sounds, yeah.

Brian Funk (03:44.376)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:47.8)

except as an insult maybe.

Sounds like you recorded it in a washing machine.

Lomotor (03:56.033)

Yeah, but it's not going to sound like Van Halen or something. If you want that perfect Van Halen tone, then you can dial up Amplitube and there you go. It gives your music something unique.

Yeah, more interesting, right? Even if it's just subtle like that. People can tell, your ear will know there's a little something that's different about this. That's not just a preset.

Brian Funk (04:20.875)

Yeah, I think it was a good word, cumulative, you just used that. It adds up these little decisions that you do along the way. They, they might not be very noticeable and sometimes it's not even a fader or a track that can account for it, but it comes through. It's an energy, something about when we record music, it picks up on your mood. picks up on if you're having fun or not. I don't know.

Again, you can't quantify these things, but it comes across in the listening.

Lomotor (04:55.839)

Yeah, I agree.

Brian Funk (04:59.147)

I think maybe I'll just mention this now to kind of put ourselves on the hook, but we said right before we started recording, we'd put together some kind of sample pack or drum rack with some of your sounds and they all try to work some Ableton stuff, tricks in there to kind of do some sort of collaboration, but that'll be something people can download for free and use in their own music and kind of spread it out and maybe inspire some people.

Lomotor (05:23.563)

Yeah.

Go to to town use some use some some trees and logs and leaves and make something something fun

Brian Funk (05:32.555)

Yeah. Link in the show notes.

so yeah, like, can you maybe tell me a little bit about, so you seem to be in like a rural area in, I think you said in Massachusetts, right? how that you, you definitely incorporate that all people need to do is go on your YouTube or your Instagram and just watch what you're doing. You're outside half the time, your dogs are running around and you've got your push standalone out there. it's a really cool way that you're pulling nature in and, man, maybe just tell us a little bit about the.

Lomotor (05:48.895)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (06:09.185)

the world you exist in.

Lomotor (06:11.713)

Yeah, so I live in Boxford, Massachusetts, which is north of Boston. And it's a rural town. I mean, seems from some of the videos I make, I should say they're a little edited. It looks like I'm sometimes in the wilderness in northern Maine or something. And there are some wonderful isolated places near me that I love, but I'm not living in a cabin without any power.

Brian Funk (06:29.132)

You

Lomotor (06:39.777)

in the woods, but it is very wooded. I moved here in 2011, built this basement studio, was kind of the first thing that I did. And then we have a barn and small farms and some mini horse, a horse, goats. And so that's, I grew up in the woods too, in the Hudson Valley area. It's just always been part of my existence.

I think it's helped me find an identity as a musician. For a long time I was kind of copying other people and I play guitar for a long time in a band, kind of like what you've talked about, Brian, and that's always fun. This is kind of a whole side of my life and personality that I've been more incorporating into the music.

Lomotor (07:34.017)

Yeah, to make it, it's a well that I can pull a lot from. And part of that is being in nature. Even if I, so I'll bring my push. Push standalone was kind of a game changer for me too. I've been waiting forever. Even when push two came out, like, it's not, you still have to plug it in somewhere. But finally with the battery, I was very excited when that came out. I would go out and record samples and then come back and.

Brian Funk (07:53.164)

Hmm.

Lomotor (08:03.809)

and the songs and stuff but now it's you can kind of do that all wall out in nature with the dogs running around and that's just that's just wonderful. Yeah and like you like you said before it's it means I can take very specific parts of my world and turn it into some of my music which I hope makes it sound different or unique or a little bit unlike something else you might hear.

Brian Funk (08:31.861)

Hmm. I think it does. And I say this a lot in my Berkeley class. I teach Berkeley's Ableton Live sampling class online. And I love that class because I think it's a really great way to build your own identity musically or sound because, you know, one of the exercises we do is just recording your day. Just go through your day, find noises that come up and then put some kind of composition to that. And

everybody's day is a little bit different. And even a lot of them only get through breakfast because they're in the kitchen and they're like, I've got, you know, two gigs of sounds now. Like I got to just make something. But even the breakfast routine of everyone is unique and the types of coffee machines they use or pans or pots and bowls and the room they're in, the acoustics, everything comes out a little bit different with their own mark on it and just

Even if it was the same person in the same room, how close do they put the microphone? It's going to make a little difference. So I love that route in trying to make music unique because you're forced to in that way. You're going to get something unique no matter what. Whereas if you go and you pull up presets and I do this too all the time, everyone does. You're getting the same preset as somebody else and, or same sample or something.

Lomotor (09:44.342)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (09:59.189)

Not to say you can't do unique stuff with that. And I think it's probably best to, you know, do some sort of combination of everything. But that's a real sure-fire way to be like, nobody has the sound of this, this tree and this rock making this beat.

Lomotor (10:14.145)

That's right, is the only kick drum that's going to sound like this. This tree. Yeah.

Brian Funk (10:19.338)

Yeah, right. Yeah, it's a really, it's a cool approach.

Lomotor (10:26.143)

which I don't know if you want to talk about social media, because I kind of have a love-hate relationship with social media, but that was part of this driver with me. I should say, feel like it's, in one part, tearing the fabric of society apart. On the other hand, I want my music to be heard by people, right? And for a long time.

Brian Funk (10:44.353)

Yes.

Brian Funk (10:48.577)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (10:50.465)

It just wasn't, you know, and so, I don't know, a couple years ago, I thought, well, I want to at least get it out in front of more ears. But I also want to be myself. Where's that intersection? So make a conscientious plan to post more of what I'm doing, but make it be true to myself still. So this path of filming more in nature and making music in nature was my compromise.

Brian Funk (11:05.132)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (11:20.267)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (11:20.417)

I kind of hate sometimes that I'll be out in a beautiful place and I think to myself like this would this will be a good content if I you know when I can't just you know back on this Yeah, so I'll try to separate the two you know I'll have a plan a day like I'm gonna go film and it's only if it's a filming day and then I'll have another day of Just going out without anything and just to enjoy it know feed the soul that way

Brian Funk (11:29.067)

Yeah.

Just take it in, soak it in.

Brian Funk (11:48.842)

Hmm.

Lomotor (11:50.921)

I do have a few of my special places in the woods that are sacred. I'm not going to film there. Those are just my secret spots.

Brian Funk (11:56.477)

really? That's cool. Yeah. So, you know, that's a smart thing because then when you go there, that part of you just sort of turns off and you don't have to even wonder if you should be doing it or not. Just, no, we don't do that here. This is different.

Lomotor (12:12.724)

Exactly, yeah.

Brian Funk (12:15.52)

Well, yeah, it's a weird time, right? Because we have this amazing power to reach everybody. Pretty much everybody. You know, going back to like the first albums I ever released with bands, like you had to physically find a person and put it in their hands and hope they put that inside their music player and turned it on and all of that stuff. Luckily, at least I guess back then, not as many people were handing out.

Lomotor (12:37.345)

You

Brian Funk (12:44.214)

tapes and CDs, so it was a little bit special, but we...

Lomotor (12:49.695)

I remember going to Newbury Comics with a CD, you know, with like my box of CDs and just handed them to the guy, the guy who worked there, like, hey, can you stock, you know, my CDs, just literally in person, you know, here. And I was so excited when they were in the racks there. I'd go back now and then and check. it's still there.

Brian Funk (12:53.312)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (13:07.148)

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I guess we didn't sell any. Yeah, we did that with like the local record stores when we had them. And we'd go in and they often had like a local band section or something and they put them in and we'd like tell our fans you could buy it at, know, Looney Tunes, which is a local place around here. yeah, real deal. like people go in, I saw it there. And then we'd go back and we'd see it there.

Lomotor (13:16.011)

Yeah, great.

Lomotor (13:25.395)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, we're real now.

Lomotor (13:35.489)

Nobody bought it, but was there.

Brian Funk (13:37.121)

I think like one or two times they said, we sold your CDs. And we're like, what? You sold all four of them? It's amazing. We need more. Yeah. But I have a weird nostalgia for those times, but I mean, there is really something incredible about what we can do now with putting stuff out. So it is smart to take advantage of it. I guess you got to watch out for the numbers a little.

Lomotor (13:42.005)

Yeah, it's a big day.

Brian Funk (14:07.562)

You know, if you put something out and then all of sudden that thing gets a lot of hits that can kind of color your next project. I guess I'm going to make something more like that again. And I, I've found that every once in a while, something like that happens. I'm like, that's what they want. But inevitably it's like, well, I don't really want to keep doing only that. But I think as you, the more you do it, you start building this larger body of work and.

Lomotor (14:17.355)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (14:31.115)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (14:37.96)

I've found with a lot of artists I really like and even content creators, which are artists obviously too, the ones I get into the most are more, they become the person behind it and less so even the work. It's like just interesting what they do. I don't need you to do that one thing that pulled me in at first. I just kind of like what you do.

Lomotor (15:01.601)

I think that's why bands, people come along for the ride for bands like Radiohead or bands that have really changed or had an arc in their career, right? People are there for it.

Brian Funk (15:08.524)

Hmm.

Sure.

Yeah, we're just going to check them out. They're going to do something interesting. And, you know, we probably all have our favorite Radiohead moments and phases, but when they come out with new stuff, it's always like, huh, now what? And it's kind of fun that you get challenged a little too. Like, hey, we didn't do OK Computer again. Or somewhere else. Check it out.

Lomotor (15:18.271)

Red.

Lomotor (15:28.967)

yeah. Anyway. Right.

Right.

And it took people, a lot of people like years, right, to sort of come around to KID-A and that whole electronic, right. They lost a lot of people and then kind of regained them over time. So.

Brian Funk (15:45.996)

Hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (15:52.012)

Yeah, that was a huge album for me, Kid A. I loved OK Computer too. Kid A actually, I think, got me more into Radiohead than I ever was. I always liked them, but when I heard that record, I was like, oh man, this is crazy. And then went back and got deeper and deeper. I think maybe OK Computer is my favorite one now. But Kid A was, when I came out,

Lomotor (16:15.925)

there.

Brian Funk (16:19.487)

like what am I even listening to like I've never heard anything like this before really like

Lomotor (16:24.481)

I was one of those people who was like, this isn't okay computer, what is this? I hear like clarinets. And I didn't listen, I was like, I'm not gonna listen to that. then, yeah, I was one of those people who years later was like, oh, this is great. Now, Kitty is my favorite. Took a while to expand my musical mind.

Brian Funk (16:28.319)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:38.537)

Hmm. Hmm.

Brian Funk (16:44.361)

Yeah, that's nice when that happens. That's good art. It should be a little bit of a challenge sometimes. A little push. Yeah, see what you can do with this. Can you take this? It's like Marty McFly in Back to the Future. You guys aren't ready for this, but your kids are gonna love it.

Lomotor (16:49.281)

A little push. Yeah.

Lomotor (16:55.851)

Do you?

When you run into that where you think to yourself like, maybe I just need to make more of this thing that people seem to like, do you try, do you do that? And if so, do you kind of set parameters to still make whatever you're making, you know, feel real and honoring yourself?

Brian Funk (17:27.145)

Yeah, I think over time, a lot of the most successful stuff is more in line with what I want to be doing anyway. Luckily, it kind of works out that way. Yeah, there's definitely been a few things when I look back, I can see like, yeah, I see what I was trying to do there. was trying to like catch people or

Lomotor (17:51.521)

You

Brian Funk (17:54.313)

maybe even a little click-baity at points.

But I've never enjoyed that enough to want to keep doing it. know, I really, once I start looking at the numbers and stats, just, I don't even know how to make any sense of it. And there's just not enough time to care about it too, for me. And I guess, you know, having a day job gives me that luxury where I don't have to really, I don't have to worry about it too much.

Lomotor (18:04.395)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (18:30.281)

You know, if I'm numbers go down on YouTube and I don't make any money off YouTube anyway, but you know, the, the ad sensor, the whatever thing they send you every once in a while when you cross the threshold, it's not really a noticeable dent in what I, so, I try not to really worry about it too much. Once in a while I'll, I'll look and see what was working, but

Lomotor (18:36.417)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (19:00.211)

I don't know. I don't know how to do it, really.

Lomotor (19:00.597)

Yeah.

Lomotor (19:06.529)

Yeah, me neither. I think you kind of have to fully commit to being that kind of artist if you're going to do that. I think you just have to be like, I'm going to be an internet artist and just follow all these trends and learn all that part of it, the metrics. I think it's rare when someone's...

Brian Funk (19:07.787)

I'm not interested enough, I guess.

Brian Funk (19:24.81)

Hmm.

Lomotor (19:33.409)

kind of just doing it with a day job, sort of half. Maybe I'm wrong, you know, I think you can, if you wanted that internet popularity, you kind of, have to fully, I think, do it and pay attention to it. And I don't know if you know what I'm saying.

Brian Funk (19:50.934)

people become, they get expectations too. I mean, this happens to me. I'll see something from somebody on YouTube or something. I love that. And then I look at the other stuff and it's not really that. Or the next thing that comes out isn't what I thought it was going to be. it's like, Hey, you were the one that was talking about like philosophy of creativity and now you're just reviewing a piece of gear. But then there's other people that I know that

Lomotor (20:04.289)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (20:20.159)

they do a great job reviewing the gear and then they come out with something else. I'm like, but I just wanted to know how it worked. So I guess it's, know I'm, this is a long game thing for me. It's already been a pretty long game. I don't see any signs of stopping or desires to want to stop making art and music and sharing it. So, yeah, just, just doing it.

Lomotor (20:25.609)

I know, yeah.

Brian Funk (20:48.703)

just going for it and having fun. If I'm having a good time, think people, someone out there might enjoy it too.

Lomotor (20:48.961)

Yeah.

Lomotor (20:56.577)

I think that comes through. Same for the podcast. I listen to your podcast, you always sound truly interested in it. It's clear you like doing this. I think that comes through. Same in music.

Brian Funk (21:08.683)

Yeah, I really do. It's very interesting. I here I'm talking to you right now, right? Like picking your brain about what you're doing, about music I'm inspired by. So, I mean, that's really exciting. And it's a great excuse to just to talk to people, right? Just to connect. mean, it'd be kind of weird if I listened to your hours like, Hey, Josh, can I call you and just talk? You know, right? For no reason that you'd be like, what? Who's this guy?

Lomotor (21:26.209)

Yeah.

Lomotor (21:34.581)

Hehehehehe

Brian Funk (21:38.917)

but you know, in this context, it sort of gives it a reason to exist. so yeah, I mean, it's just fun. and without having to really worry about funding it and sponsors once in a while, if some sponsor comes along that I like, and I'm into their stuff, I'm happy to do that. And if I can,

Lomotor (22:02.197)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:04.68)

I try to even now make it a little more of a fun project than just like, ladies and gentlemen, let me tell you about a new product. And so that becomes like, now I'm still being creative with it. But yeah, don't, there's other things that come through that I see it. I'm like, I don't want to talk about that. I don't want to put that out. And yeah, it might be the hot topic of the day, but yeah, that's not really what I'm interested in. It's nice to have that, that freedom.

Lomotor (22:15.563)

Yeah.

Lomotor (22:28.161)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:34.068)

Definitely.

Lomotor (22:38.431)

you have dreams of being a professional musician? Did you think you were going to be a rock star at some point?

Brian Funk (22:45.322)

Yeah, I thought I wanted that. That was like, you know, probably from the minute you pick up a guitar, right? You're like, yes. But I mean, I love playing in bands and still do and like playing shows a lot and do occasionally. I think I really learned this though, in setting up some tours, like little two week deals down the East coast where we'd play probably like

Lomotor (22:52.206)

Hahahaha!

Brian Funk (23:12.314)

seven to ten of those nights and then, you know, drive to the next show in a car. And we had a great time. It was the guys hanging out and playing music. But by the end of that, I was like, okay, you know, it's time to go home. I want to go home. I want to eat a regular meal and not just like junk that we're picking up on the road. And I want to sleep in a bed. And I had a cat. I want to see my cat, you know, I to have a relationship. All these things like

Lomotor (23:17.291)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (23:27.617)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (23:41.119)

I guess you don't realize that when you picture yourself on the big stage, you know, hitting your cord, you know, in front of a screaming audience, you see that, but you don't see like all the other stuff that goes into it. So much more than that. yeah, I'm a home body kind of guy too. I like, I like being home and I just, I liked it, but not enough to want to do it 50 weeks of the year.

Lomotor (23:56.757)

Right.

Lomotor (24:09.887)

Yeah. It seems... Yeah. It seems like a hard life.

Brian Funk (24:10.922)

That became clear to me.

Brian Funk (24:16.912)

I think it is. I mean, people love it. You have to love it, I think, to do it, really. Sometimes you just got to do things to realize whether you like it or not. Even playing guitar for me was that. I didn't know I was going to like playing guitar. I didn't know I was going to like doing this even. I didn't know I was going to like being an English teacher. But sometimes you just got to be in it to really understand what

Lomotor (24:23.83)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (24:46.65)

else is around it and then things clear up a little bit. So yeah, I'm pretty happy with how things worked out musically and I'm glad I don't have to be going on the road because I just enjoy it to a point. But the point to which I stop enjoying it is so much less than what's required.

Lomotor (24:51.413)

Yeah.

Lomotor (25:12.309)

Yeah. You've talked about it, I think, in the past, but I wonder too, like if your life was totally different, you know, if I had no other obligations, not a day job or anything, would you really, would I be doing music as much as in my head I would be, you know, with all that extra time really mean and be making more songs and I, you know, it's hard to, it's hard to know, right? You don't know that's an alternate life.

But my guess is a lot of the time you'd waste some of that time. You'd say, I have all this time I can watch more TV or whatever.

Brian Funk (25:46.153)

Yeah. Well, I get summer vacations, so I do get a little taste of that. And I waste a lot of that time. really do. I try to be productive and I try to do something, but I'm not as productive as I think I'm going to be.

Lomotor (25:52.257)

Yeah, you get a real test every summer.

Lomotor (26:03.201)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (26:03.274)

I don't make four albums every summer. Like in my head I have the plan. You know, come June I'm like, yeah, I'm ready. I'm going to by the end of June I'll have the first two out. It's like, no, you'll have just sat out in the sun because it's nice out. And then you went to the beach and you know, those kinds of things. The pressure of the time constraint when I'm at work makes me more productive.

Lomotor (26:06.229)

Right.

Lomotor (26:13.429)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lomotor (26:18.059)

Bread.

Lomotor (26:22.453)

Yeah, I think I work better.

Lomotor (26:27.489)

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. I think I work better if I know I have a, like, say a half-day window, right? If I know I can... I always wake up super early myself just because I like that quiet, dark, alone time. But I know I have that, let's say, on a weekend morning. I have that from 5 a.m. until maybe 11 or noon, depending on other obligations.

he can schedule out that time. One of the things I always try to do is plan the night before what I'm going to do so that I can...

not sit there and just start opening old song ideas and spend an hour and a half just scrolling through live projects that you're never going to finish and doing maybe an instrument or a little tweak for each one and then move on to the next. You can go down that vortex and get lost forever. So I'll plan the night before. Tomorrow I'm going to do...

Brian Funk (27:12.434)

Right.

Lomotor (27:21.781)

this step and find the baseline for that track and finish it or something like that so that then when I wake up I quickly drink my espressos and start doing that right away and you have a structure. And then like you said with the limitations then like if got this time I've got to do it.

Brian Funk (27:41.514)

Hmm.

Lomotor (27:41.589)

do it. Don't look at your phone. Don't avoid distractions for that window. And if you know you only have that little window, it's easier to avoid distractions, right? If you have days, you kind of just get lost in that.

Brian Funk (27:54.314)

Yeah, I could do it later. Well, you know what? Let's go for a walk. Let's have a snack. Let's watch this video. Let's learn something. Learning is my killer, my secret way that procrastination gets me all the time. Like, I'll learn how to use this device, or I'll watch things I already know and just how are they using it? How are they using a saturator in life?

Lomotor (28:00.299)

Yeah.

Lomotor (28:05.749)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (28:21.771)

I have a rule for that for myself where I will only learn from YouTube if I have my music computer open next to it. So I'll be watching the video but actually doing it myself instead of being passive about it. I mean sometimes I'll just watch that stuff while I'm doing the dishes or whatever but I won't.

Brian Funk (28:35.059)

Yeah, smart.

Brian Funk (28:41.841)

Yeah.

Lomotor (28:43.981)

sit and just kind of watch stuff if I should, could be doing, actually doing music. Like at that point, open the, turn on the music computer and you know, do it. Follow along. In that way at least maybe you'll have something at the end of it that you can use to make a song.

Brian Funk (29:00.541)

Yeah, I think that's our big challenge these days is all these distractions, all these other things we can do, infinite choices. I give people, young people especially, that start into music or any kind of hobby these days, I give them a lot of credit because part of how I got into playing guitar was boredom.

I just, I now have anything else to do. I already played the video game that I have to death and you know, it wasn't like I had access to every other video game that ever existed like we do now too. But I always kind of wonder to myself like, would I have stuck through those hard times? Would I have dealt with my fingers hurting and...

Lomotor (29:23.627)

Yeah.

Lomotor (29:40.278)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:45.106)

not figuring out the chord and not being able to turn to YouTube to get the answer on how that Nirvana song went. All these things that you can do now. I don't know if I would have survived. I might've just went on Instagram or started watching something else, playing a game.

Lomotor (30:05.185)

It's so easy to do something else now. Yeah. I wonder too. I wonder if will be less creative or something because of that. It's just so easy to be entertained now by everything. I know, I feel like we sound like grumpy old men talking about this, it does seem like it's very different, right? Like you said, when you were kids, like you're very limited and you know, we had four VHS movies. So.

Brian Funk (30:26.408)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (30:32.327)

Yeah.

Lomotor (30:32.961)

I watched Hooper with Burt Reynolds a hundred times because that was one of them.

Brian Funk (30:35.977)

Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I see it in my students. Like I don't see as much creativity as I used to. And when I do, I'm like thrilled. Like, good. Yes. you paint. Awesome. You draw. Yay. Thank. Good. You need those things in your life. But yeah, I don't know. I look.

Lomotor (30:49.973)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (30:58.058)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (31:01.671)

I'm trying to look at it like with empathy to realize like I'm the same as them. I'm, we're humans. We're all the same exact DNA. We're not more or less evolved. You throw us a baby born today into, you know, the year 12 and no one would know the difference. Right. So I, I would, I try to remember, I'd probably be exactly like them. And yeah, I don't know if I would have overcome that. Not sure.

Lomotor (31:19.169)

Mm-mm. Right.

Lomotor (31:31.265)

probably would have played less guitar.

Brian Funk (31:34.739)

Yeah, it might have been like, this is hard. But I'm to play this game I found on my phone.

Lomotor (31:37.749)

Yeah.

Lomotor (31:44.041)

Right. Yeah, I think I would have been the same way. I think it's very rare to be that driven, especially as a child. You can block out distractions. And nowadays it's just so easy. It's all on your phone, right? It's all right there.

Brian Funk (31:48.051)

there.

Brian Funk (31:57.638)

I hope AI will fix that for us in the way AI is polluting social media and YouTube and there's just so much content. It'd be like, I don't even want to look at this. I mean, I get that a lot. I can't even look at Facebook anymore because everything is...

Lomotor (32:02.113)

Yeah.

Lomotor (32:08.393)

I mean it'll make it so bad.

Uh-huh.

Lomotor (32:16.651)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (32:18.057)

every video is AI and half of them are people that think they're real and it's just like there's no point in being here anymore. So that's good. I like that. But maybe like, to get back to like your music, I think this might be a drive to go out and do something real.

Lomotor (32:26.838)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (32:45.831)

record like the sounds around you walk in the snow and turn that into music and bang on this log and get your hands on things. I hope that happens a lot. I think it's part of, I mean, I've always been drawn to this, but I think I'm more so interested in it now because the, it's so much more of a statement now, I guess, right? Some of my early recordings where I was

Lomotor (32:59.988)

Absolutely.

Lomotor (33:11.083)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:14.845)

banging on garbage cans to make percussion was because I didn't have percussion. So I didn't have a set of congas and all this stuff to play around with. Now when you do it, you're doing it knowing like, I could just get that loop off Splice. I have a preset inside of Logic or Ableton, but I'm deciding to go against that and go through the effort of this. it's...

It feels more deliberate and more of an artistic stance. And I like that.

Lomotor (33:45.323)

Yeah.

Lomotor (33:49.665)

Yeah, I think you're right. It's every, I don't know what you call, AI and social media, every big social entity like that has a backlash or it's opposite. And there's some people I think who are gonna always, I don't know, people might love all those AI videos. But right, I think there's...

Art is sometimes reacting to what's happening in society as a response, as a push back against stuff like that. That's certainly the way I think about it.

say like to go out into the woods and do something different try to make it real. I've messed around with AI videos and there's still up on my Instagram a couple of them. I kind of try to make it obvious that it was AI but I still would get comments like, does it just slop? So I've stopped I just thought well yeah yeah and maybe I'm stealing from you know all the artists that that AI company swept you know through.

Brian Funk (34:47.497)

Yeah.

Lomotor (35:00.809)

every artist in the history of humanity. Maybe I'm stealing from them a little bit by making this video of people dancing in a field. But I also realized like people, some of those videos didn't, they got negativity and didn't seem that interesting to people. You know, sort of less likes. I think people are instinctually interested more in something that's real and human.

Brian Funk (35:04.265)

Alright.

Lomotor (35:26.721)

And maybe AI will get to the point where we can't tell the difference, which is kind of a terrifying thought. Yeah. But I still think it'll be a while before, like, it will be so good at replicating humans that people won't be able to tell. You know, I think we'll always have that, whatever, imperfections that make us human.

Brian Funk (35:34.141)

Yeah, seems to be.

Brian Funk (35:47.689)

Hmm.

Lomotor (35:55.851)

Partly why in my music I'll try to not be too precious about it. Especially with electronic music, it's really easy to put everything on the grid. And a lot of times I'll put a kick on the grid and keep it there. Have something that's very regular, but then maybe play some percussion, some leads or something myself.

which not going to be... I'm not a good percussionist. I'm not a good leaf player. So it's not going to be on the beat or anything.

Brian Funk (36:25.328)

You're not a good leaf player. I bet you're one of the more capable ones out there actually. You're probably more experienced than most.

Lomotor (36:37.849)

But then people will hear that, even if it's subconscious, they'll... Something will tick. Yeah, it's interesting. Maybe more interesting than something that's totally AI produced.

Brian Funk (36:51.26)

Hmm. Yeah, I have, through this app I use for the podcast, Riverside, they do some kind of AI where it'll, it'll make clips for you. It'll kind of figure out what the good trending clips will be, which is funny sometimes how it figures that out, but it has an AI B roll thing that you can have it automatically insert it. So we might be talking about like recording and, you know, how it's like,

Lomotor (37:07.039)

Yeah. Huh.

Brian Funk (37:21.244)

this magical thing and then like a magician will pop up. It doesn't always understand the context or the metaphors you're making. And I was having fun with that, like how it would sort of mischaracterize it.

Lomotor (37:24.417)

That's funny. Yeah.

Lomotor (37:34.304)

Red.

Lomotor (37:37.995)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (37:39.559)

Like, yeah, this song is like a stew of all different things. It's just like a chef. Like, yes, and the chef has like seven fingers and, you know, the dog with like, that's floating in the sky kind of in the background. So these like artifacts would come up and I found those amusing. But I did see comments like, this is obviously AI. Look at the way that spatula is and why is he even there? But.

Lomotor (37:44.289)

You

Lomotor (37:47.905)

Thank

Lomotor (38:02.305)

you

Lomotor (38:06.785)

That's one thing about the internet, Like it doesn't matter how obvious you're trying to make it seem that you are aware that you're making fun of this thing, people are gonna take it seriously, right? Like there's always gonna be somebody who's pointing out the thing that's very obvious.

Brian Funk (38:15.997)

Yeah.

It's not as bad as it used to be either. It just sort of disappoints me. It's way better at it now. When they first came out with it, it was funny. The bass guitar would just suddenly disappear into a microphone. It didn't make any sense. But now it's so much better at it that you almost can't even...

Lomotor (38:26.325)

the air.

Lomotor (38:32.499)

You

Brian Funk (38:38.566)

You know, it's like I'm longing for the lower quality, almost like I'm longing for like a cassette tape for track sound. I kind of wish, but it didn't last long enough. It wasn't garbagey. Yeah. Right. miss those. Yeah. I'm going to ask you a kind of specific question about when you go out and you're doing your, your sampling and then you're working with push.

Lomotor (38:45.055)

Yeah.

Lomotor (38:49.269)

Yeah, that was only like six months. It's already moving on.

Brian Funk (39:07.944)

How do you record those samples? Are you using the inputs on push, the mic inputs, the line inputs? Are you using a different sampler? What's that look like?

Lomotor (39:14.635)

Mm-hmm.

It's just a microphone or my phone.

put that in later but yeah just a microphone SM57 that I plug directly in.

Brian Funk (39:31.324)

Plugged right in. Nice.

Lomotor (39:33.565)

simple try to keep everything portable so that it can fit in a backpack.

Brian Funk (39:37.767)

Yeah.

Right. had, um, I'd found, I had an SM57 I was plugging in and I was getting some weird interference with push when I was doing it. So, um, I kind of abandoned that, but I just got this new, um, it's like an audio interface actually, but it connects right to the mic and it's only about two or three inches long.

Lomotor (39:49.366)

Yeah.

Huh.

Brian Funk (40:06.6)

and then you plug the cord into it. It's actually a USB-C cord, so it goes in like that. And that works great because it picks it up like an interface and then no interference. And it's so portable, too. It's only adding like, just makes the SM57 a little bit longer.

Lomotor (40:11.393)

Yeah.

Lomotor (40:18.145)

Hmm.

Lomotor (40:24.261)

Yeah. Do you get wind issues or anything? Or can I clean it up too? Or do have a...

Brian Funk (40:31.342)

No, it's the same wind is always, cause that's just hitting the mic. just picks it up cleaner or something. But yeah, it's kind of got to worry about, I haven't taken it outside yet though. I've, but it's, it's the same reaction. It feels like a mic normally does.

Lomotor (40:33.92)

Yeah.

Lomotor (40:45.473)

Lomotor (40:49.771)

Yeah. Sometimes I'll just, I most of my samples I'll just record on my phone and I'll put that to the side and just hit record on voice notes to get the ambience, right? And then sometimes it'll just do, start playing instruments and push.

Brian Funk (41:01.895)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (41:09.909)

and then put that ambience in. I'm hearing it even though I have headphones on. I'm still experiencing being in nature, but I'm also recording that separately. I can put that in later on. It's rare though where I'll... Usually at that point I'll try to chop up... I'll try to always do something to a nature sample. It's rare where it's just like a...

Brian Funk (41:24.454)

that's cool.

Lomotor (41:36.161)

just the birds in background kind of going without editing or something. So a lot of times I'll chop it up into a rhythm or I'll, what is it? Is it the shaper tool, the audio shaper? If you, sometimes you run a drum beat on a track and silence it, mute that track, but have the beats trigger the sounds that are in the sample, right? So it might be some birds and stuff, but it's only, it's hitting on the, on the.

Brian Funk (42:00.871)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (42:05.973)

drum beats only.

Brian Funk (42:07.628)

Do you do that with like a gate or an envelope follower or something like that? Yeah.

Lomotor (42:11.009)

Yeah, so an envelope follower, right. So usually the auto filter, sometimes the gate, but like the auto filter is just a little smoother.

Brian Funk (42:19.473)

Mm-hmm.

That's cool.

Lomotor (42:23.263)

Yeah, it's fun. And other times it'll just be a couple of auto filters, right, or a few gates. now with the newer, it was a 12, flat 12. I love the LFO settings. There's so many options, right, where you can do, I think it's the glide.

too long if you just use the wander, right? So, right, so if you get a couple of those in a sequence triggering multiple auto filters or multiple gates or mix and match or sometimes like a reverb, like if it's triggering a reverb real wet but just for moment, you get all sorts of interesting sounds.

Brian Funk (42:41.895)

Yeah, wander and glide. Yeah.

Brian Funk (42:51.751)

Hmm.

Lomotor (43:04.341)

And then almost always I'll take that and at least try to see what it sounds like reversed. I feel like I reverse everything just to see how does this work. Sometimes it's great.

Brian Funk (43:04.711)

Right.

Brian Funk (43:14.309)

Yeah, the verse is so cool. And I appreciate it because the first time I ever did reverse sounds was on four tracks and flipping the tape over and you know, all which didn't seem like much of a hassle at the time because wow, we could do that. But now that you can just, you know, highlight it and hit R, then it just reverses it. I love it. So are you transferring the

Lomotor (43:34.017)

You are, Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (43:42.541)

the stuff from your voice memos to push through Ableton Live or do you plug it maybe into like the USB or the inputs or something, un-push to sample it?

Lomotor (43:53.153)

So from my, usually I'll do that in back here in my studio. So, so I'll, if I, if I come up with a track I like in the push, save it, get back to the studio, put it in my computer.

Brian Funk (43:59.24)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (44:10.857)

and then I will sample, then I'll take my phone and record that just through my interface back into, so I have that recording in live. I don't know if there's a faster way to import from live, from voice notes, that's just the way I do it.

Brian Funk (44:28.289)

I'm trying to think if I haven't tried it, sampling directly from the phone into push, but I guess if you had a cable that went into the inputs or maybe even the USB, see, or regular USB, you might be able to do that. I gotta give that a shot.

Lomotor (44:31.521)

Yeah.

Lomotor (44:40.735)

Yes.

Lomotor (44:49.473)

could, right? You just need a converter, right?

Brian Funk (44:57.765)

be out there doing it. But I think it's cool that you use your phone a lot. I've been telling people more and more like, yo, your phone is a great field recorder. I used to say it in my Berkeley class as like, hey, the phone has a lousy mic. It's not great, but at least you have a mic and you can record it. And sometimes that lousy sound has character and it works. But now like,

Lomotor (45:06.966)

Yeah.

Lomotor (45:14.987)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:19.659)

Man, the iPhone mics these days are so good. I just watched a video of a guy, I think he's Sugar Pill Productions on YouTube. I double checked that. He's like a songwriting, indie guitar rock guy I like a lot. But he had a Neumann and an iPhone next to each other and he was side by side and switching between them while he was singing the song. And like, I didn't...

Lomotor (45:45.057)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (45:47.695)

I couldn't tell. I didn't know what was what. I admit, in the context of the song, they both sounded good.

Lomotor (45:48.949)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lomotor (45:57.25)

People can be so precious about that kind of stuff. At least for me, I mess with the sound so much anyway. The source doesn't have to be pristine. Most of the time I'm cutting out all the low end anyway just to get rid of wind sounds. I do think...

Brian Funk (46:05.179)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (46:10.375)

Right.

Brian Funk (46:14.311)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (46:17.217)

Yeah, so I agree. think the iPhone is all you need, really. The only time I've noticed where it's not as good as like a Zoom, I have a Zoom hand-held recorder that I'll use sometimes for bassier sounds. So if it's low end that you're trying to capture, I still use something a little bit better than the iPhone. But otherwise, leads, sticks, yeah, I use the iPhone.

Brian Funk (46:29.232)

Okay.

Brian Funk (46:40.879)

Like, so like if you're doing a kick drum from a log or an old tree, you get the zoom. Yeah. I, I, I don't remember if you told that to me or, or I saw it in a video talking about like,

Lomotor (46:44.767)

Right, right, that's a little more high fidelity with the zoom.

Brian Funk (46:56.295)

Stumps and logs are good kick drums, but we had a tree fall down in my backyard during the blizzard the blizzard of 26, you know, and It's still sitting there and I saw that I was like, oh my god, what's wrong with me? I've got the whole like orchestra laying in my ground I was just mostly bummed because I had a bat box on that tree and It got totally smashed. I never got bats in it, but I was

Lomotor (47:05.025)

You

Lomotor (47:10.465)

Yeah.

Lomotor (47:20.34)

of

Brian Funk (47:24.953)

really excited to get bats to eat the mosquitoes and stuff.

Lomotor (47:28.745)

What? Yeah, I wonder how many bats really go into bat box. I've never seen a bat in a bat box. We had one up for years. Yeah. No.

Brian Funk (47:34.183)

Yeah, it never went in. They have them in some of the parks in the wooded areas around here and I think they do. Yeah, I don't know. I just thought it'd be great. We have some bats you'll see at dusk in the summer. So was like, hey guys, why don't you just live here? But I'll have to turn that into some kind of orchestra. So start recording it.

Lomotor (47:40.065)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lomotor (47:49.046)

Yeah.

Lomotor (47:52.481)

Yeah, that's the same with me.

Lomotor (47:59.628)

Yeah, It's the... You'd be interested to... You know, they're very different tones depending on the age of the old log too. Sometimes if they're wet too, like if it's been raining, you'd find like a good, crumbly, old, old big tree that's like kind of falling apart but still got some body and hit that with another big log. It's a good, good kick drum sound.

Brian Funk (48:08.634)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (48:25.968)

That's awesome.

Lomotor (48:26.401)

And then the newer ones are a little more resonant, right? Like you're gonna get a higher kind of sound that's not as kick drum-y. Right, yeah. I'll pitch down. I mean, a lot of times I'll do that and then pitch down the samples if you wanna get something lower. Add some saturation, pitch it down.

Brian Funk (48:31.908)

Yeah, makes sense. Unless you're Tom's or something. Yeah.

Brian Funk (48:47.748)

Yeah, I like that. That's cool. Yeah, I'm going to make use of that tree. It doesn't feel like a loss. It's kind of the beautiful thing too when you record something or sample something. Like you are sort of taking a sonic photograph of it and making it last. I mean, I always get a big kick out of some of the packs I make and they go around and make it into people's music.

Lomotor (48:53.345)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (49:17.156)

The one that really made me understand it was the piano I have in my house. It's, it's over a hundred years old. got it from the salvation army. I don't know, probably 20 years ago now. And, when I first got it, was like, man, this piano, look at it. It's had a life. Somebody played this thing. You just tell like the way the keys are worn and it's like, what?

Lomotor (49:30.113)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (49:42.011)

does this piano know? What did it do? And now after sampling it and putting it out there, it's like, then, and it goes on, you know, the story continues. And every once in a while, someone will send me something they made. It's got the piano and I'm just like, wow, how cool is it? Whoever put that piano together, like if they'd only known. Yeah, it's really cool how you can give something life like that. Like,

Lomotor (49:44.929)

Yeah.

Lomotor (49:50.433)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (49:57.429)

Yeah.

Lomotor (50:02.529)

It's extended life, yeah.

Brian Funk (50:09.882)

like an old dead tree. It's going to eventually fertilize the ground, but now it's taking on this whole other direction. That's really cool.

Lomotor (50:18.269)

hope.

Lomotor (50:22.699)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:25.124)

I've been very interested in kind of off beat microphones lately. Cause I did make a pretty substantial mic purchase last year. I got a warm audio. She's, I don't even remember. It was like a telefunken kind of remodel. I love it. It's tube. It sounds amazing. It's definitely like the nicest mic I have.

Lomotor (50:44.481)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (50:53.131)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:53.254)

And I've got a couple others that are pretty nice, you know, C414. But I feel like I got that covered now. like, sound good enough. So now, like, all these little oddball things. Let me grab one real quick. just want to show you. This one.

Lomotor (51:05.621)

Right.

Brian Funk (51:19.43)

is a soda can microphone. this guy, and I, it's from the seventies, I think it is, uh, 200 years. Oh, it's the, uh, it's the bicentennial. That's what that is, the bicentennial. So it's a, it's a 50 year old, uh, soda can now. Uh, yeah. So this guy, Darwin audio makes these and, um, you can get all kinds of stuff and it's, it sounds like a soda can. It sounds like inside a soda can. It's.

Lomotor (51:22.411)

How old is that soda can too? It looks like a vintage soda can. Yeah.

Lomotor (51:36.641)

That's awesome.

Lomotor (51:46.689)

you

Brian Funk (51:48.551)

Like when you hear it, you'll just know. Yeah. Just like a couple of guitar recordings playing around. made a little kind of like a promo for the podcast. I called it a dedication because speaking of the blizzard of 26, this, I ordered one and it got lost in the mail. It was supposed to be delivered that day. We got two feet of snow. It never came. went through the post office and they were like, somebody picked it up.

Lomotor (51:51.083)

Have you used it on any recordings?

Lomotor (52:15.819)

Huh.

Brian Funk (52:18.342)

And we didn't pick it up. So, yeah, something, it was marked as picked up that somebody came and got it, but the time was weird. It didn't make sense. But the best they were able to tell me is to see if I could get a refund. So I wrote him and I was like, I don't expect you to refund me, but maybe you have insurance or something. And he's like, look, I'll just send you new one. And he sent it to me. And so I made like a little kind of.

Lomotor (52:20.693)

I wonder if it was just buried in snow somewhere.

Brian Funk (52:47.338)

ad promo ad kind of thing form to put on the beginning of podcast, but I love it. It's like you, you want something like a little weird with character. that's great. And I just got this other one too. It's a

Lomotor (52:49.909)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (53:03.558)

It's a telephone mic. Trash Talk Audio, they make this. Turns out they're on Long Island too. Sounds great. It's really nicely built. I made one myself out of a telephone just by soldering a cable into it, which I don't know how to solder, but I was able to do those two soldering marks with the little wires. But they sound awesome. And they sound very different from each other too.

Lomotor (53:05.387)

I've seen those, yeah.

Lomotor (53:32.897)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (53:33.706)

teenage engineering has this one called Ting that, they've got this like little sampling. forget what it's called now. Like they called it like the knockout or something. I never used it, but it's like a little sampler. and, they did like this kind of like reggae inspired one. And it came with this microphone. It's like this little handhold thing that has built in effects and you got to squeeze the button, like on a CB radio or something.

Lomotor (53:47.009)

Yeah.

Lomotor (54:02.401)

That's five. Great.

Brian Funk (54:04.057)

Yeah, but it sounds awesome. It's, and it's low fidelity, but man, character galore. And it's like, don't even have to process these things because they're sort of pre-processed and they have a character and you just leave them alone. Maybe put a little delay or reverb and you're good to go.

Lomotor (54:12.693)

Yeah.

Lomotor (54:17.557)

Right. Yeah.

Lomotor (54:23.553)

Do play, do you sing as part of your band? Do you play live? Would you ever use any of those in a live show?

Brian Funk (54:26.906)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:31.557)

I've, I've been thinking about this telephone one. Um, I'm just wondering about feedback because it is in that kind of frequency range. I was using it, uh, the other night, kind of in my live performance setup, then I was just going through my monitors and it was feeding back a little bit compared to my other mic. But I could imagine a situation maybe where I have it.

Lomotor (54:35.254)

Yeah.

Lomotor (54:41.793)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (54:52.149)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:58.501)

like next to the regular mic and maybe like on a verse I sing into the telephone and then on the chorus go into the, it can be kind of fun. Or even with this one, you can sort of just hold it up to your head and be like singing like that. And maybe it's part of like the show of it, get on the phone, like playing guitar.

Lomotor (55:01.397)

Red.

huh. That'd be fun.

Lomotor (55:16.031)

Yeah, right. You need a song that's like a conversation now between people. can switch personas. Right. Does anybody else in the band sing? can sing to each other through the phones.

Brian Funk (55:23.213)

Yeah, yeah, we'll have to get another one. Background vocals coming in.

Yeah, yeah, we all do, right? That's a fun idea. But these things are, they got character, they got personality.

Lomotor (55:38.785)

And do you think?

Yeah, would you think you could achieve that a similar sound in Ableton?

Brian Funk (55:48.762)

Yes. Yeah. Pretty darn close. You know, and I've got, I've made racks for myself that are like telephone effects where it's the EQ. You're basically just taking out all the highs and lows. maybe a little compression and distortion a little, but yeah, you're probably like 97 % of the way there. but I tell you when you, when you like,

Lomotor (55:51.851)

Yeah.

Lomotor (56:01.398)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (56:17.315)

talking to these phones, I don't know if it's because, you know, growing up talking to people on the phone, it sounds, it has that intimacy of like you're listening to somebody, they're writing your ear and their mouth is that far from the speaker. And, you know, you're talking about life late at night. It's got that sound that I don't think is the same when you do it with effects.

Lomotor (56:27.871)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (56:38.528)

Yeah, yeah.

Lomotor (56:46.347)

Right.

Brian Funk (56:47.553)

And I don't know what that is exactly, but...

Lomotor (56:52.267)

think probably just holding it too might change your performance, right? Like just the interaction with the thing or with the soda can is, you know, it's different than using into a regular mic and then processing it and able to like you yourself might in that delivery might do something a little different.

Brian Funk (57:13.123)

Yeah, I was playing my push the other night and I had the phone like in my shoulder. Like, you how we used have to do that? Like when you were talking on the phone, you held it between your ear and your shoulder. But that was really fun. I was like, this is great. I'm singing. But after like five minutes, I was like, man, my neck. Yeah, I'm married, yeah.

Lomotor (57:17.761)

Did you ever you're married right? So does your wife ever come in I don't want to get too personal if you don't want to talk about but like does she ever come in with something like that? Yeah, like what's going on?

Brian Funk (57:38.102)

Like, what the hell are you doing? Yes, she does. She's pretty used to it though. She'll like, okay, why are you recording that? Now she's more like, you should record that. yeah, there have been a few times where she's like, what? The worst, most puzzling thing I ever did for her was just I was recording guitar feedback for our...

Lomotor (57:52.705)

That's good, just I'm a team.

Brian Funk (58:07.439)

band's and I my friend's orange, it was like a practice amp, orange amplifier, but it had just a great feedback when you cranked it up all the way. So I had it all the way up and I was just moving my guitar around the amp, making all these noises and just sampling them all. made a sample pack of that guitar feedback and turned them into instruments, which are surprisingly gentle actually when you start putting them in samplers.

Lomotor (58:08.886)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:34.255)

Cause you know, it's like a screeching feedback, but when you put it in there, it's like all soft and mellow. yeah, yeah, it's really good for that. Actually. I thought it would be tearing through the speakers, but no, it's, it's interesting how it just like tames it. But that day she came down. She's like, what are you doing? What is this? Like, I think she was also just worried if I was okay.

Lomotor (58:39.497)

Yeah, I bet you could get some good pads from it.

Lomotor (58:57.153)

You

Lomotor (59:03.221)

You're lying there.

Brian Funk (59:03.599)

Like am I on fire, like passed out on the floor? Yeah. Like what's happening down here? But yeah, I can understand that day. Like,

Lomotor (59:13.793)

Yeah, I did something similar. I have this old box AC30. I got it because of OK Computer. It's what they use. I think it's what they use when they're recording. I like, love that amp. But I have a red. We have a double height living room. I ran. I can stand in this room and put the amp all the way up in that other room. And I have long cables that go to it and record.

Brian Funk (59:22.173)

yeah?

Brian Funk (59:28.133)

Beatles, I think, as a history.

Brian Funk (59:42.18)

Cool.

Lomotor (59:43.298)

But it's, you know, the neighbors can hear it. I'm out in the woods, right? Like it's loud. And I remember my mom was visiting. They were out for the day, but my mom was visiting. She came to this little window in the basement and just was like banging on the window like, we can't come into the house. You gotta stop.

Brian Funk (59:59.429)

Yeah, we can't come in. That's funny. I'm pretty lucky right now where I am with my neighbors. I don't think they hear too much of what I do. Being in the basement and a little bit of space. But where I used to live, I got visited from, think, every neighbor on every side of me at one point or another.

Lomotor (01:00:17.857)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:00:27.542)

Mostly being a little obnoxious too late at night. It always starts out like it's two in the morning, your friends and your buddies, you're coming home, you're like, let's play real quiet. You do for like two and a half minutes, but then next thing you know, we're crashing on the cymbals and turning on the overdrive pedals.

Lomotor (01:00:30.497)

Uh-huh.

Lomotor (01:00:39.841)

You

somebody turns up a little bit.

Lomotor (01:00:50.251)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:00:52.802)

So yeah, my neighbor's probably glad I don't live there anymore.

Lomotor (01:00:57.377)

Haha.

Brian Funk (01:01:00.932)

What are you gonna do?

Lomotor (01:01:02.187)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:01:05.634)

What? How do I pronounce the name of the new record? That is something I wanted to ask you.

Lomotor (01:01:10.539)

That's a question. Abkepsil ahead.

Brian Funk (01:01:13.6)

Abcapcilla had, okay?

Lomotor (01:01:15.649)

Yeah, ab caps ill ahead.

Brian Funk (01:01:18.04)

That's coming out June 6th, just so people know. But what is that?

Lomotor (01:01:21.473)

Thank you, yeah. It's a, that name. It's a good question. It came, I don't know exactly. It came to me in a dream years ago and I kind of half woke up and wrote it down on a bookmark that I had next to the bed. And then it just kind of sat there and I forgot about it. And I was just thinking about, I think it's at that point I thought, well, maybe I'll use it for something. I don't know what it means or whatever, but I'll just, I'll use it. And this album is.

Brian Funk (01:01:38.242)

Yeah, okay.

Lomotor (01:01:51.17)

It's a collection of tracks that kind of mix my nature and where I am now but I also grew up in nature and it mixes that.

the memories that I have being a child in running through the woods with the dogs or finding an old beat up car in the woods. I had a lot of freedom as a kid, that freedom with my brother and friends, we'd just go explore and probably hurt ourselves doing something, but it was just so much adventure. And I try to capture that feeling in these tracks.

And all that was, it's all nature is a theme through all that, right? So there's a lot of nature in it. But to me, that word at Capsule Head is this imaginary land that is maybe stemming from my childhood memories that have kind of turned into, obviously no childhood is ideal, but you know, have that ideal in your head. So it's a mix of that feeling and sort of my life now with nature.

Brian Funk (01:03:00.622)

Yeah, okay.

Lomotor (01:03:00.993)

I still have some old home videos too. You can see I've actually got them. There's my old VHS and some of the old home videos. And my dad, I know I've heard you talk about it. My dad, in 1980, he recorded just sort of everyday conversations around the house. And I have that cassette tape. It's two full sides.

Brian Funk (01:03:10.34)

Cool.

I got a VHS down here too.

Lomotor (01:03:30.419)

So I of used bits and pieces of my childhood throughout the songs. So you'll hear them kind of come in and out. It's usually it's pretty subtle and it'll just be like what I was talking about, some kind of rhythmic thing that's actually the voice of my dad cut up or that conversation that's chopped up mixed with some bird sounds or something that's also chopped up.

Brian Funk (01:03:35.108)

Nice.

Brian Funk (01:03:44.824)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:03:53.334)

But all that is using synths too. I wanted to make it musical. And I love electronic music, like electronica, especially Apex Twin and Boards of Canada. Boards of Canada are kind of my north star. And they've always, that type of music, that kind of older synth music also has a nostalgia to me. So somehow the, I don't know how cohesive it is, but somehow that combination of synths.

Brian Funk (01:04:06.521)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:04:22.813)

nature and bits and pieces from my childhood or what the album is.

Brian Funk (01:04:28.036)

Yeah, I get that actually a lot listening to it. It does sound almost like memories, kind of the way they exist in your mind, and all jumbled together kind of, and interacting.

Lomotor (01:04:37.109)

Yeah, it's good to hear because, yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that comes across to people or not. So, I appreciate it.

Brian Funk (01:04:44.216)

Yeah. Why is there a song called 1980 was a long time ago? Why are you calling out 1980?

Lomotor (01:04:52.289)

That's from specifically one of those recordings. Yeah, I have the tape over there. Oh. Okay.

Brian Funk (01:04:56.228)

It was 19A.

Brian Funk (01:05:01.709)

That's the year I was born and I'm like, no. I felt like called out for being old or something.

Lomotor (01:05:07.621)

I knocked over my little Zabeverchoo blog that I use for percussion. Yeah, mean, no, so I'm not trying to... My mom in that cassette recording actually says, yeah, yeah, that was a long time ago. So you'll hear her say it kind of in the background, but...

Brian Funk (01:05:15.989)

that's cool. Beavers, what cool animal.

Brian Funk (01:05:30.743)

huh. Okay, that's cool.

Lomotor (01:05:35.49)

and it was recorded in 1980. I'm not trying to call out anybody for being a I was born in 78, so... My birthday was yesterday. Thanks. Do you ever feel... I have to get over that... the concern of...

Brian Funk (01:05:45.011)

happy birthday. Very cool.

Lomotor (01:05:53.674)

sounding like old music or whatever. The music I make is the music I make. My thought was like, this is not for the youth of America or the world. Whoever likes it will like it. Probably not gonna be a 19 year old, but I can't concern myself with that, right?

Brian Funk (01:05:58.179)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:06:02.7)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:06:11.03)

I don't think so. And I guess a lot of the music I was making when I was 19 wasn't for 19 year olds at the time anyway. yeah, I don't know. don't, I don't feel old really. I still feel kind of like a kid that's fooling everybody. Like they think I'm a professional. They think I'm like, I get invited to meetings at work and I still kind of feel like.

Lomotor (01:06:17.983)

Right.

Lomotor (01:06:27.391)

I know.

Lomotor (01:06:31.637)

Me too.

Lomotor (01:06:35.691)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:06:39.672)

You sure you want me there? Like, when, when are they going to realize that I've been like fooling everyone? The imposter syndrome thing, I guess, right? Like, I, I'd feel that.

Lomotor (01:06:40.001)

They're gonna call me out, like they're gonna notice. I don't belong here. Yeah.

Lomotor (01:06:49.621)

Do think you'll be like that always? Like do think you'll be 80 and still feel like a kid?

Brian Funk (01:06:56.162)

Well, yeah, I think we all are. I think that's the real thing about it is we're all really just winging it. know, we're adults. We don't know what we're doing. We're trying our best. know, we might have learned from some experience and taken in what other people have said, but I mean, when you really get down to it, we don't know.

Lomotor (01:07:11.649)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:07:23.105)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:24.036)

I think maybe that's part of why when you're a teenager, you might resent your parents and authority. Cause you start to realize like, like you guys don't have your lives figured out. You're telling me what to do with mine. And that has changed more to, I guess, empathy now where I'm like, Oh yeah, they didn't know what they were never trying, what they didn't know. can't, I can't blame them. Cause I don't know.

Lomotor (01:07:36.967)

You

Lomotor (01:07:47.019)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:51.926)

I mean, being a teacher, think has really made me see that because sometimes that really weighs me down. I've sat in bed at night and been like, my God, especially if I don't know what I'm teaching the next day, if really, or it's not working out. Like, man, I don't know, what am I doing? These parents are giving me their kids 40 minutes a day, five days a week, and little do they know, I no idea what I'm doing.

Lomotor (01:08:08.565)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:08:19.647)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:08:20.129)

You start thinking that way and you go down these like spirals and I've had to find ways of dealing with that. because yeah, I don't, I don't know. We don't, I don't think we know as much as we pretend we do or as much as people think we do. I'm trying to find comfort in that nowadays. More than anything. There is a weird comfort in that like, you know, we don't know.

Lomotor (01:08:27.989)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:08:40.043)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:50.285)

We're trying, but.

Lomotor (01:08:51.829)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it's if you can come to terms with that and just embrace it accept it You know, then even then it's enough to stress about like what's the there is no point in worrying about like no Am I mature enough like you are who you are? Yeah, don't be nervous or I think and to your point I think probably the most of those other people in the room that you're with feel similar to the way you do Right there, but they might be thinking you have your life put together much more than they do

Brian Funk (01:08:58.156)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:09:06.595)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:09:16.107)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:09:21.237)

Right. Yeah. We had like a, we have these like spirit days at school and, there's one day we had like rock music day and I brought my guitar in and had like a wig on. And I was like, little do you guys know this is like actually me in my natural state. Today is the only day I'm not dressing up. know, it's the day I finally feel like myself in costume.

Lomotor (01:09:35.201)

And you have your telephone and one shoulder and the soda can and the other.

Brian Funk (01:09:50.155)

Yeah. Yeah. Like this is who I am. I'm not that serious of a person.

Lomotor (01:09:58.37)

I that kind of stuff is so important for creativity, Just to have that freedom. I don't know if it's Picasso. Yeah, to play exactly. Some famous, it might have been Picasso, loved watching kindergartners paint, right? Because there's you know, presupposed ideas of what art should be, right? They're just totally making it for the sake of making it without like...

Brian Funk (01:10:03.394)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:06.893)

play.

Lomotor (01:10:25.089)

him learn how to make a hand the right way or whatever, draw an eye, right? It's just, I think that's actually have sort of through, you see some things throughout the room. I've intentionally left toys from my childhood. I've kind of scattered around. I have some Star Wars figures hanging from the ceiling and stuff just to just keep that childish mentality.

Brian Funk (01:10:27.875)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:44.451)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:10:52.105)

in here, when I'm making music I want to just be that tree to make whatever you want. There's always a time and place to curate it later on and mix and master and all that stuff. be a child, be free when you're in that first creative process.

Brian Funk (01:10:58.839)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:11.917)

Hmm. Yeah, I do the same thing. got some toys scattered around and little knickknacks that are just for no other reason than just like exactly what you said. It is pretty interesting how kids will just jump in on things. They'll just do it. They're not thinking if they're good at it or bad at it, but something does happen along the way. I'm teaching eighth grade this year for the first time. I've always done high school.

Lomotor (01:11:18.571)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:41.986)

And I see it even in them. they're a little more free and like when it's, if we're going to draw something in class, like, okay, yay. And even just ninth grade, they're like, I'm not good at drawing or I don't know how to draw. I can only do stick figures and like all these things they've somehow now put in their identity that the other kids, the eighth graders I'm watching changed. Like it's like, they're different than they were in September.

Lomotor (01:11:44.521)

a little freer.

Lomotor (01:11:56.321)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (01:12:03.659)

Yeah, it's sad, isn't it?

Brian Funk (01:12:12.109)

They, first of all, they're cool now. Like, I'm cool. I don't care about anything anymore. Watch them like they have recess and they go play outside. And in the beginning of the year, it's just like kids running around chasing balls, doing cartwheels and backflips. like, you're like, look at these crazy kids. And now like they're back outside again, it's a little warmer and there's a lot more standing around in groups and like huddling around in the distance.

Lomotor (01:12:14.335)

Right. huh.

Lomotor (01:12:26.539)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:12:33.569)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, everybody's like worried about what the others are doing, thinking about them. Yeah, it's sad. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:40.523)

Yeah, I'm like, no, it got away, you know? You let it get away, someone or it squeezed out of you or something.

Lomotor (01:12:50.657)

Yeah. But isn't, I think, becoming a creative adult is learning to really embrace that freedom, right? To forget about that concern about what are the cool kids thinking, you know, over in that corner about what this silly music I'm making. I think the faster people can get over that concern about what others think or their own insecurities, the more fun you'll have making something.

Brian Funk (01:12:59.288)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:03.587)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:13:16.225)

Yeah, I think so. I think that is almost the entire trick of it. I don't think I ever left that so much, you know? Yeah, like, well...

Lomotor (01:13:26.689)

Good for you. I think me too. I'm just secretive about it.

Brian Funk (01:13:31.893)

Yeah, like, you know, my friends growing up, we've always embraced being silly and a little weird and we laughed at it and, got a kick out of just that in itself. And we were always drawing and then we were getting into music. So we kind of kept a creative thing going. And, and I guess cause of that, we got a little bit better than maybe our average peer. And maybe that helped us get through that a little.

Lomotor (01:13:50.251)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:14:00.332)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:01.622)

But yeah, I've always tried to keep that and enjoy that even like being around like little kids and not being afraid to just play whatever they're doing on the rug and being around even, even the high school kids, even though they are really concerned about all that stuff, they still have a freshness to them. Or at least some of them, you know, and

Lomotor (01:14:23.115)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:14:28.833)

You

Brian Funk (01:14:30.946)

That's, that helps. But I think you really do. You got to not worry about it. As soon as I start worrying about that stuff, I always kind of run out of steam. If I start thinking I need a clever progression or an interesting whatever, I need to impress fellow producers or, you know, show that I know music theory a little bit. All these things.

Lomotor (01:14:32.843)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:14:41.375)

Yeah, it freezes up real quick.

Lomotor (01:14:55.295)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:59.052)

Half of the music that I love is so simple. Most of it is. It's really basic. Just a few twists here and there maybe, but...

Lomotor (01:15:01.888)

Right.

Lomotor (01:15:07.765)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:15:10.206)

I don't know. I find that's the worst thing that happens to me is when I'm thinking about it and wondering if it's good or if people like it or if I like it even.

Lomotor (01:15:20.725)

Yeah.

My arm.

Brian Funk (01:15:24.1)

I like working real fast for that reason, so I don't have time to think about that.

Lomotor (01:15:28.735)

yeah, me too. Fastest. Don't, don't, don't worry about, don't judge the decisions, right? Just go, just keep, keep that momentum. And then if, especially if you're, yeah, if you're feeling like, if you like it, then just keep, keep, you know, ride that wave for as long as it lasts. Try to, try to maintain that, you know, if you have one idea and it brings to another and then branches out to a couple more, try to do all those.

Brian Funk (01:15:35.98)

Yeah. Go and react to do it. React to it. Make something else.

Brian Funk (01:15:55.778)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:15:56.044)

follow those trails as quickly as you can to, cause it dries up, right? Like it definitely, if you think like, I'll stop now and come back tomorrow or something, it's so hard to get right back into that rhythm. It's much better just to, no, no.

Brian Funk (01:16:08.374)

Yeah, you're never the same. You're not the same person. The atmosphere is different. Something happened in the news or, you know, it is very hard to get back to that.

Lomotor (01:16:15.818)

Right.

Lomotor (01:16:20.501)

better to put it all out. Don't worry about what it is that day. Just get everything. It's like the opposite of Michelangelo, like make...

Brian Funk (01:16:24.962)

.

Lomotor (01:16:27.487)

make the rock as big, make a huge boulder of stuff, right? You can always go back then the next week and start to carve away that boulder that you've made and then you find the sculpture within. But try to put it all out there first and, know, mute tracks at that point. Later on, then you can sort of go, well, do we really need these 15 extra synth lines or where's the core of this? Maybe I can get rid of all this stuff.

Brian Funk (01:16:51.442)

Mm.

Lomotor (01:16:55.637)

That part for me is the part that takes forever. I like this part, but I like this part too, but the clash, which one do I pick? That'll take months sometimes.

Brian Funk (01:17:03.906)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:17:08.042)

It's tough because you put the time into all of it and they're all your babies. They're all like kind of precious and special and, but yeah, we need to have that little thing.

Lomotor (01:17:10.667)

Yeah, yeah. If you like them all. Right.

Lomotor (01:17:23.573)

That's where you wish you had some other ears to Which one? Tell me which one to pick.

Brian Funk (01:17:29.366)

That's one nice thing about collaborating, working with other people and in the band it can just be like, no, no, don't do that. Just do this or do this instead. And you're like, okay.

Lomotor (01:17:33.291)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:17:37.729)

Right.

Yeah. Sometimes you're like, okay. But I really like that part. My, just.

Lomotor (01:23:57.396)

It reminded me of a story, or something that just happened to me recently with my daughter, who's just about to turn 11.

Lomotor (01:24:10.401)

No, I'm sorry, 11. She's just about to turn 10. She's acting like a 14 year old. But, no, she's nine for the next month. She...

When she was in kindergarten, she had a friend on the bus and they would start writing songs just out of the blue. They'd write down their notebooks and they'd memorize the melodies. They had like 15 songs just that they just would create on the bus. And I didn't want to put any pressure on them or like, you know, be a musical parent, right? I just kind of offered my services. Like I could record and put it out there in the world. They didn't even know what Spotify was. were like, we want to know the internet. And I was like, I can do that.

So we recorded it down here and I think a few times I tried to be like, you know, sure you want to like, you want that part to be on, you know, to a rhythm or something. They're like, no, the response to anything I suggested was like, definitely not. So it's totally their thing. It's just them singing. Yeah. But I was totally, I did some producer things. I realized that like this is, I'm getting sidetracked, but I did at one point, like this is a little later. They've done a couple of songs now, but their met their energy level was low.

Brian Funk (01:25:05.579)

That's funny. Yeah. You're the producer.

Lomotor (01:25:21.161)

And I was like, sing more and they weren't doing it. So was like, okay, you two, like, I'm gonna leave the room. Scream as loud as you can for 30 seconds and jump all around. And they loved it. like, yes. And like, you know, they did that and came back and recorded their song. it was like their energy level was much higher and it sounded good. But my point for the story was...

Over a couple days my daughter kind of brought up, she was like, you know that old song we did in kindergarten? I if I like that one. I was like, no, I think it's fine. were in kindergarten. Then she brought up again. And it turned out she was getting into bed and she was like, some girl had made fun of her song and heard it and said to make fun of them for singing it. And she was all kind of torn up about it. So we had this long talk about creativity, what you and I were talking about.

My point was, even Taylor Swift, K-pop, Demon Hunter, millions of people in the world love them, and millions of people will hate them, it doesn't matter. We had this whole good talk about creativity.

You shouldn't, you can't worry about what other people think. She was like, do people ever make fun of your music? And I was like, yes, they do. And this is a topic I can absolutely talk about. I can help you with this one. It was a rare occasion, feel like as a parent where could, I could actually be helpful. You know, she was at the end, she was like, thank you. But it's not, I'm hoping that she gets over that, right? Yeah. And I think, I think it did actually help. Yeah. I'm hoping that she, she can kind of just.

Brian Funk (01:26:40.724)

Hmm.

Hmm. That's great you were there. In that moment.

Lomotor (01:26:52.085)

brush that off. You're going to have to learn to brush criticism off anyway.

Brian Funk (01:26:55.838)

Yeah.

I mean, that's really cool they got into that. And then I could imagine you, you're probably like, boy, like, come on in. then, yeah, then the temptation and yeah, you want, hey, let me show you something cool. But to let them just kind of have at it and do it. But yeah, that's kids too. Like they're ruthless and...

Lomotor (01:27:05.683)

Yeah. Right. Do want me to reverse your voices? No.

Lomotor (01:27:24.865)

to.

Brian Funk (01:27:24.926)

You know, it's like so natural for us to want to be, to want to fit in. Like our ancestors that didn't fit in, well, we don't have those ancestors. They didn't have children. didn't survive and pass on their DNA. So we are descendant of people who were accepted. And that's a big reason humans have been able to survive in nature is because we had each other. so that's, it's a real pull, but,

Lomotor (01:27:36.161)

bread.

Lomotor (01:27:52.117)

to fit in, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:27:54.719)

to be able to help her through that, to get to the bottom of it too, that it was like, yeah, somebody said something. If she takes it down or deletes it or whatever, you've just empowered her.

you've given her too much, now she controlled you. And that's so much you see it with kids. They're like, watch this. Watch what power I have over this other kid's feelings. I'm gonna go be mean to them and like, yay, look at me, I'm empowered. But yeah, you kinda see it. mean, they tease each other a lot.

Lomotor (01:28:13.589)

that.

Lomotor (01:28:22.411)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (01:28:28.629)

You must see that a lot.

Brian Funk (01:28:37.568)

It's funny that, and then they're best friends though too. It's like my best friend poured chocolate milk in my backpack. like, I think that's how we express, we're constantly trying to figure out our rank on the totem pole and it's always changing. But I, I've kind of just been saying, I'm like, that's your friend. picked him. You know, like that's what you guys do. And you wish she could just like, put that in their heads, like knowing what you know now, of course, right? Like.

Lomotor (01:28:49.569)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:29:06.526)

Yeah. The kids that nobody bothers are the kids that nobody can affect. I mean, I had that growing up. Like it was like my last name, Funk. Like there's a lot of fun ways to twist that around and make a kid's life miserable. I was a pitcher and I just threw the ball as hard as I could and was able to do pretty well in Little League, right?

And the first time I ever heard like, we want the funk or play that funky music was from the other team singing it at me to frazzle me. Like that's when I first heard those songs, you know, kids singing at me aggressively, know, taunting me. And it would really drive me crazy. And I couldn't throw a strike anymore. I'd be mad and like fuming and kicking the dirt.

Lomotor (01:29:46.187)

Huh.

funny.

Lomotor (01:29:54.389)

Huh.

Huh.

Lomotor (01:30:01.558)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:30:04.852)

But like one day I was just like, I'm not gonna care about that anymore. I just, for whatever reason, decided I'm not gonna care. It's my name, you know, we don't pick our names, whatever, you get what you get. And as soon as I did that, like, it just changed everything. Like they would do that and I'd be like, they must be worried now, cause, you know, and then I would sort of fire me up or, and then from there, like people were like, it's a cool name, you know, instead of like,

Lomotor (01:30:16.651)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (01:30:25.793)

right.

Lomotor (01:30:33.621)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:30:34.336)

turning it into like a curse word or whatever. Then as soon as it didn't have the power over me, it changed. And that was a big lesson growing up. you wish, like you see some kids getting so upset about what they're saying and I'm like, all you have to do is not care. Or at least pretend you don't care for long enough. And I make.

Lomotor (01:30:41.323)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:30:54.549)

Yeah. Right. So much of high school, yeah, or middle school, both for me was that. I just, I look back and I'm like, why was I so stressed about what people thought of me? So embarrassed about things that are totally not embarrassing. Or even if they are, so what? know, kids just... Yeah. Right. Yeah. The sooner you can get over that, the...

Brian Funk (01:31:15.924)

Yeah, most of it's, everyone's going through half the things anyway. Yeah.

Lomotor (01:31:23.797)

better it should be for it. Don't, don't. Right. I think you just have to live it.

Brian Funk (01:31:25.662)

You just don't have the world view yet. You know, you're so tuned in. Your own perspective is all you got.

Lomotor (01:31:33.377)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:31:34.816)

You feel so alone and in that. Yeah, it's tough. I don't envy them. I'll tell you that. I'm never looking at them like, I wish I was in that grade again. It's like, I'm so glad I don't deal with that crap anymore.

Lomotor (01:31:43.201)

Yeah. Yeah, no.

feel like that, we want the funk or something, like that should be your walk-off song as a pitcher, right? Like, that's... Yeah, that's funny.

Brian Funk (01:31:57.184)

Yeah, well they had weaponized it on me. Like, we want the funk. Like, oh man, like, they were like, you have no idea, I'm just so mad. It's like, because I can't throw a strike anymore. just furious and everything fell apart from that.

Lomotor (01:32:09.249)

you

Lomotor (01:32:14.483)

funny

Lomotor (01:32:18.549)

Huh.

When I first started listening to your podcast, thought it was a made-up. I thought it wasn't your real last name. It seems like a musician would, you know, that's your music persona. I'm Brian Funk. I'm the funky guy.

Brian Funk (01:32:29.151)

Yeah, well, and I resisted that for a long time because of funk music. I don't make funk music and I didn't want to have a preconceived notion. But it's so much easier once I decided to just be it.

Lomotor (01:32:47.061)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:32:50.951)

I don't know. It's kind of weird we have to come up with artist names anyway. You have an artist name? Like, where does that come from? I've never heard that word before. Low motor.

Lomotor (01:33:02.005)

Yeah, I just made it up. just drew a long, long list. Yeah, I just wrote a long list of options. I kind of just tried to throw letters around and then whittle it down to that. And I just liked the look of it. I kind of like how the O's. I like spelling it too, L-O-M-O-T-O-R. Like it just, I don't know. Yeah. And at the time, I was kind of thinking more.

Brian Funk (01:33:03.967)

Just like the album.

Brian Funk (01:33:22.483)

Yeah, they're spaced out like that.

Lomotor (01:33:28.777)

techno-y music wise I thought it kind of looks like a car even. The O's look like wheels. It's kind of cool. It's not really a nature-y thing. Now it's just made up and I like the sound of it.

Brian Funk (01:33:41.533)

Hmm. That's cool. You know, you don't even think about it after the first time you process it. It almost just goes away. That's just what they're called. You know, any artist, you're just... After a while, you don't even realize you're saying it.

Lomotor (01:33:49.355)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:33:57.89)

and Funk Railroad, just talking about funk. What a weird band name, you know, they're just a band. You don't think about it.

Brian Funk (01:34:02.687)

Yeah. Yeah. That's the funny thing about my whole life has been most of the time people show me these or bring them up or sing them at me before I ever hear them. Like, I don't know what they're talking about. I think like somebody called me Grand Funk Railroad before I ever knew what it was. Like, what the hell did you just call me? Like, what? You know, but it's a funny existence, I guess. We all get...

Lomotor (01:34:13.803)

that you don't

That's a weird thing to say.

Brian Funk (01:34:30.897)

little things like that, you know, helps you not take yourself seriously, I guess.

Lomotor (01:34:37.151)

Yeah. I also kind of like just talking about names. I like when there's lore behind a name and it's not so straightforward, right? Like maybe it's annoying to people, right? I've wondered about this name in the album that Capsula had. Like that's hard to spell. Nobody's going to remember how to say it. But I kind of like creating maybe a little mystery or at least that question in people's minds. What does that mean? Maybe that's like putting too much on.

I don't know. To me I prefer that over something that's just called album one or something.

Brian Funk (01:35:12.657)

Yeah. Well, it kind of gives it a world a little bit, you know? Like you said, it's a world. I have no preconceived notions on it. You I'm not connecting it with things I already have experience with. So there's something cool about that. Yeah.

Lomotor (01:35:17.291)

Yeah, right.

Lomotor (01:35:26.038)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:35:30.763)

Yeah, right. Yeah. I think that's it. No, no preconceived notions about what it is. Make it unto itself. Yeah. Right. That's good.

Brian Funk (01:35:38.493)

Yeah, I mean, I really had no idea what I was going to hear when I opened it up, you know, which is cool. You're going fresh.

Brian Funk (01:35:51.314)

I guess we've kind of been hitting on these just sort of by the nature of the conversation. But one of the cool things you sent me was your creative guide. So you have this kind of seven pillars, seven statements here, your creative guide. You got be consistent, be creative for yourself, ride the social media wave with caution, convenience, make it yours. Perfect is the enemy of good. And one song at a time.

How'd you come up with those? I see some of them might have some stories behind them as well. Any ones that you think are especially important or?

Lomotor (01:36:35.073)

Yeah, most of those are just through experience or listening to other people. I think I heard BT on a podcast talking about how he has stations to make everything convenient. It's so easy to... I mean, I do it all the time. I was like, I could record this with the synth over here, but it's turned off. It literally, it's like two buttons to turn on.

And it's just like, I'll just do it in Ableton. Which is what, like, most of what I do are Ableton softsense, and I love that. like, I try to set up everything in the room here to make it as easy as possible to do it. Because if it takes 15 minutes to set up, you're with loss, right? And if you have an idea, you want to do fast, I think you've talked about this too in your room.

make it quick. Everything on this side here I've got on one power strip.

Brian Funk (01:37:34.333)

Hmm, that's fun looking. What do we got? Some petals and... Let's see, something's like a... Hmm.

Lomotor (01:37:40.95)

Yeah, so drum machine, there's a Russian drum machine, some synth and stuff, they all, each synth has its own chord outputting from it. So all I have to do is, I run them all through the pedals, but I'll just plug that one in to the pedals chain, turn it on. It's all in one power strip, so just one on button. My interface is always on anyway, know, and the preamp, and then you're ready to go.

Brian Funk (01:38:00.137)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:38:10.273)

So it's under 10 seconds to get going. think that's the same on the other side, just a different station, right? It's all connected to one power switch, turn that power switch on and you can go.

Brian Funk (01:38:15.763)

Yeah, that's...

Brian Funk (01:38:20.212)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:38:25.201)

And we keep like all the mics on the drums and the guitar amps. And I got a template in live that I just opened and it's ready to go. It's already half mixed and we can just record band practice and all of these things around me are ready to go. I've got the like smart outlet things. I think that's what they're called. They're like a little...

Lomotor (01:38:43.029)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:38:53.535)

You plug it into your outlet and then you plug into that. So it's just like a little box, but it's connected to Siri. So I just have to tell her to turn it on. I don't want to say the exact words because she'll, she's very sensitive to that. She's always listening, but, um, I look like, what does it save me?

Lomotor (01:38:57.579)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:39:08.991)

You

Brian Funk (01:39:17.343)

probably 20 seconds and maybe just like bending down on the floor to flip a few switches, it makes a difference. It's just nice to tell it to come on and turn off and then I can just start. Those little things are a lot. mean, micing the drums or just even having the tracks inside the computer, like that could take a while and that's the difference between us recording practice or not.

Lomotor (01:39:19.073)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:39:26.027)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:39:45.974)

Right, yeah, definitely. And that's cumulative too, right? Like, I think if you only do music a little bit, it doesn't make a difference really. But if you're doing music every day, you know, if you have a couple of those conveniences, it does add up, just smooth.

Brian Funk (01:39:47.101)

You know? So, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:40:03.11)

I think so. If you can steal back a minute or two here, there, a few different times every session over the course of a year. I mean, you've got extra bonus sessions basically. And you're yeah. And you're not like, I have this idea. It's great. It's great. hold on. Let me wire everything together. And then what was that idea? that's not a great idea. And you're out of it, you know? So.

Lomotor (01:40:15.211)

Yeah. And then you're just keeping your brain creative instead of thinking about the life. Yeah. Right.

Lomotor (01:40:28.755)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:40:32.466)

Yeah, that's a good one. Convenience.

Lomotor (01:40:35.361)

What else is on the list? consistency too, just doing it. I get up early every morning just to do it. Even if it's a short while, 20 minutes or something, I think it's good to have that routine. Just get used to doing it every day and then a lot of what you produce will probably be stuff you hate. But if doing it every day...

you're just increasing the odds, right? It's that simple. Increasing the odds that you'll create something that you like and can create something more out of it. I'd say probably 90 % of what I'm doing, I don't go back and finish. It's just some live project saved. But then if I hit on something and I'm liking it, this is where the one track principle comes in too is...

Brian Funk (01:41:17.982)

Hmm.

Lomotor (01:41:26.785)

Chase that down for as long as you've got the energy to do it. Don't give up halfway through. When you do hit on something you like, finish that and don't leave it in your files for another year or whatever. Finish that song, follow it through, spend the time to finish it. I think you've talked about this too. Then you get in the habit of finishing things also.

Brian Funk (01:41:34.59)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:41:39.816)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:41:53.138)

Yeah, there's a habit to that. Yeah, the longer it sits on the computer, the more likely it is gonna not exist. It's like, what is that? The first 48 hours of a crime or something, right? Like detectives talk about are the most important. It's kind of that way with music too. Like otherwise, you know, the dust settles, the evidence is contaminated and you you don't feel it anymore or another idea came up.

Lomotor (01:41:53.909)

more.

Lomotor (01:42:09.022)

You

Lomotor (01:42:12.353)

you

Lomotor (01:42:16.949)

Red.

Lomotor (01:42:23.733)

Yeah, absolutely.

Brian Funk (01:42:24.114)

Yeah, you have to really push the ideas through as fast as possible, I think. There's some exceptions to that, but it just increases your odds. And I think it's a good way to look at it. It's sort of like a numbers game, just quantity showing up, showing up, showing up. And every once in a while, something gets there.

Lomotor (01:42:44.363)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:42:51.201)

Yeah, you dig through a lot of coal, but then you might hit a diamond now and then.

Brian Funk (01:42:58.994)

Yeah, you gotta show up. Gotta keep doing it. It's so much more free too, because when you have one project, this is the one of the year. It's too precious. It's your artistic statement. There's too much wrapped up into it. If you're just pouring out tracks, you're be like, yeah, sometimes I'm weird. Sometimes I'm silly. Sometimes I don't make sense. Sometimes it's cheesy.

Lomotor (01:43:10.475)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lomotor (01:43:21.697)

Mm-hmm.

Lomotor (01:43:26.209)

I know some creative people who are worried about all that. They're so good and they're just worried they don't finish anything. For whatever reason it's not good enough. I listen to stuff and don't Yeah, right. Everybody's so worried. I can't put it out. It's not exactly what I want. Sometimes it only comes out. I don't know.

Brian Funk (01:43:39.87)

That's perfect as the enemy of good. You got in there too.

Lomotor (01:43:52.61)

I think that's a way of paralyzing yourself. What's the point of it? Maybe if you want to listen to it for yourself, great, but if you're nervous about releasing it.

Lomotor (01:44:07.615)

That's what I'm talking about.

Brian Funk (01:44:11.656)

You know, the things that I've labored over the most, I think have the least amount of longevity with me because I've already put in so much time with it. So familiar with it. It doesn't surprise you anymore. But the things that I kind of power out and then I can hear it a month later and be like, yeah, this song. And like, that was cool. What happened here?

Lomotor (01:44:20.907)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:44:40.718)

Those tend to just stay interesting longer. Maybe there's just a kind of limit to how much you can listen to any piece of music. If you're going to labor over it, you'll get there sooner. Whereas if it's a fast thing, you come back to it, it's always fresh.

Lomotor (01:44:51.648)

Yeah.

Lomotor (01:45:01.109)

have both. I have more fun doing the ones that come quickly, That's the most fun I get.

But I have one track that I can think of in particular, Be in a Bag, where I really liked, I knew I was like, this is a good synth line, I wanna make a cool song out of this. And I recorded a Yellowjacket, a Ground Hornet was in the house. I caught it in a brown bag. I was flying all around the bag as I was taking it out. I had my phone, was like, this sounds wicked, this sounds really cool. It's like this weird crackly, buzzy noise. So recorded that and let it go outside.

But I had this song that had the synth and the matte sound. And I spent, I don't know how many hours and hours laboring over trying to get, I was like, I knew there's something here. I just, like, the mix is wrong or the drums aren't right. I just kept going back to it over at different periods. Finally, like, I still like that song. It's one of my favorites and people connect to that one. They like that one too. But it took a lot. And some, and you never know. That's the hard part I think about.

me anyway being a musician is is this worth it? I spend so many hours on this stupid thing. You know and then you get, you go ahead.

Brian Funk (01:46:08.934)

Yeah. That one's cool. I have a sample of a bee inside a...

It was like a, I think it was a Chinese food soup container, like a little plastic like quart. You know, he was in down here and I caught him in it and he's like, inside the thing and I sampled them and I've had the intention of putting that inside the sampler and seeing what I come up with. So I saw that. was like, no way. Same idea.

Lomotor (01:46:23.44)

huh. Yeah. huh.

Lomotor (01:46:35.617)

That's funny. Yeah, I wonder what kind of tamber the Chinese food container has versus a brown paper bag.

Brian Funk (01:46:42.49)

Yeah, I bet it's different, you know, instead of like hitting the paper. But again, there's like a story, right? Like, and that was an accident. The bee was in your house and that was, and the point of you catching them wasn't to sample them. You're just probably trying to just be humane and let them free. And then you realized, cool. Look at this. Like you sort of listened to the universe.

Lomotor (01:47:05.332)

Uh-huh.

Lomotor (01:47:09.761)

I've had to say that to many people on Instagram. Yes, the bee is okay. I let it go. didn't, yeah. I've got a couple of those like, yeah, you're a killer.

Brian Funk (01:47:15.804)

Yeah. You animal, you monster. Don't you know bees are endangered and if we didn't have bees.

Lomotor (01:47:25.057)

Like I know, I know, but it's really hard to put that in a, you know, an Instagram story cover. Like this song is called Be in a Bag, but I didn't kill the bee. Yes, I really value animals and I didn't, please just be nice.

Brian Funk (01:47:31.378)

Yeah, right.

Brian Funk (01:47:36.542)

Yeah. That's pretty funny. Well, hey, that's what you do. You stir up a little controversy once in a while.

Lomotor (01:47:47.873)

Yeah, yeah, yes.

Brian Funk (01:47:52.262)

So I want to be a little mindful of your time here. Really enjoy talking to you. We should tell people, of course, like they can find your music at your own bandcamp. Apple Music, Spotify, all that stuff, Low Motor. You've got the new record June 6th is the date, right? Coming out June 6th. So that'll be pretty soon. Something for people to look forward to. It's really cool. I'm...

Lomotor (01:48:13.249)

June 6th.

Brian Funk (01:48:20.835)

I'm in love with it. I'm really enjoying it. It's inspiring too. And it's fresh sounding and all kinds of stuff that I'm enjoying about music these days. So I think, I think people will get a kick out of it and your workflow is really cool and different and it comes through. It's really, it's worth all the effort you're putting in, I gotta say.

Lomotor (01:48:45.281)

Well, thanks so much, Brian. This has really been a thrill to talk to you. I know it sounds weird, but I have been listening to your podcast for a long time. I was kind of shocked when you like, yeah, let's talk. I feel like I'm meeting a celebrity. It's been a lot of fun to talk to you. But you're a very down to earth grounded kind of guy. it's been a real honor to have this conversation. Thank you for listening, and thanks for having me on.

Brian Funk (01:48:55.643)

Yeah, thank you for that. That's great.

Brian Funk (01:49:15.623)

Yeah, well thanks for being on. Hopefully this is not the end of it all, only the beginning, you know?

Lomotor (01:49:21.857)

Yeah, let's definitely stay in touch. I'd love to.

Brian Funk (01:49:25.021)

Cool. Well guys, go check out Low Motor, L-O-M-O-T-O-R. You can go to lowmotor.net. You can go to Instagram and YouTube. I'll put all the links in the show notes so you guys can see them. Check them out. It's doing cool stuff. Thanks for listening. Have a good day.

Lomotor (01:49:42.017)

Thanks. Bye.

The songs on The First Light were recorded at the moment I finished writing them on acoustic guitar. It's the first time anyone, including me, ever got to hear the songs.

Each song was written and recorded in a single session. Some songs were done on a single microphone, others had one on the vocal and one on the guitar. It's the songs in their purest form. They aren't stripped down versions because there was nothing yet to strip down!

Often the meaning of a song changes as we spend more time with them. Even the next day, we might feel differently than we did while writing. These songs are the original sentiments and feelings, without editing or rethinking. The performances are not yet rehearsed or calculated, and therefore, at times, a little shaky! But they are real, honest, and sincere.

In an age where art is more refined, polished, and generated than ever, I hope you enjoy the raw humanity of these recordings.

Written and Recorded by Brian Funk
Mastered by Animus Invidious
Cover Painting by Thomas Gambino III

YouTube Video Playlist:

In Nick’s return to the Music Production Podcast, we discuss his new Mighty Synth Sampler and the journey to create it. We get into how to avoid perfectionism by learning to enjoy the process. There's also a lot of talk about the creative workflow and avoiding burnout.

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Moby Pixel - http://www.mobypixel.com/

• Mighty Synth Sampler - http://www.mobypixel.com/mightysynthsampler

• The Story Behind Mighty Synth Sampler - https://youtu.be/3kW4RovVoEY?si=KuCDjysv2btNOUdB

• Nick's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/mobypixel/featured

• Overdrive Synth - http://www.mobypixel.com/overdrivesynth

• Nick's 1st Appearance on the Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/blog/nick-culbertson

• Matthew Fecher on the Music Production Podcast - https://www.brianfunk.com/blog/2018/6/30/66-matthew-fecher

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

• Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:02.17)

Welcome back to the show, Nick. Good to have you.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (00:09.093)

It's good to be back. It's been, did we decide it's been like three or four years?

Brian Funk (00:14.018)

Yeah, three and half years, October 2022.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (00:17.903)

I got to re-listen to the podcast because I wanted to see what we talked about and it's a totally different world now than it was four years ago. And so I took some notes, some things that have changed. You are in a band now and you put out an album. You wrote a book, a book, and you've done jammuaries like every year, right? And I have said I'm going to do jammuari every year and then haven't done it, but

Brian Funk (00:25.822)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (00:41.41)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (00:46.971)

At least I'm consistent. I did do it one of those years though.

Brian Funk (00:50.466)

Yeah, I feel like I remember seeing you posting something about it and showing up.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (00:56.903)

Yeah, it was awesome. I tried to like record a different sample for each day and then sort of like make music from the sample. So that's sort of led to this whole sampling world thing that I'm doing now. But also in that time, I, you might not know this, I made presets in 10 AudioKit Pro apps, including SagaSynth. So Matthew, he's just a machine. I can't believe he's released like over 10 apps and

Brian Funk (01:04.162)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:20.942)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:26.663)

that short of time. I've been doing a bunch of YouTube videos, I've been making all these like MIDI gadgets and stuff that are behind me. And then I released the app, Mighty Sense Sampler. Thank you, man. It's been a long time coming here. there were times whenever I was like just not interested in it, you know, because you've spent so much time working on something and throughout the course of making it,

Brian Funk (01:38.584)

Yeah, congratulations.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:55.015)

I've kind of tried on different tactics to keep focused on the project. And sometimes that the tactic is stop working on it for a while, know, step away from the computer, which is not something I normally decide, but it's a good way to not get burnt out if you do that. I think also I would, do the monthly challenges, you know, just like January, instead of doing it for music, I would do it for things like I'm going to work on

Brian Funk (02:07.182)

Hehehe.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:24.261)

Updating apps every day and so it would be it didn't matter if it was five minutes or an hour I would do that and I might just have different steps and so I found that to be super useful throughout this Let's see, also, you know the pomodoro timer It's stupid, but I swear it works sometimes that one Then you also think about like who you're serving like you think about the end users that are gonna have your product And so each of these things

kept on trying and that's what would bring me back to it. But the reason I bring this up is because near the end of the project, whenever I was like, you know, fixing the 10,000th bug, I thought after I get done with this, I'm going to go back on Brian Funk's podcast and I'm going to talk about making this app. And, yeah, that was, you were the wind beneath my wings.

Brian Funk (03:16.31)

Wow, that's the best thing I've heard in a while. I've always wanted to be the wind beneath someone's wings. I'm it.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (03:19.977)

hahahaha

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (03:24.169)

I mean and then there's there's there's like the conventional ones too like Seth Godin He says like just show up every day. He shows up

Brian Funk (03:33.394)

Yeah, I read his blog every day, even just the fact that he's showing up every day. Like sometimes it applies. Sometimes it's really marketing specific and you know, it doesn't really resonate with me, but I like just seeing like, he is again and again and again. So I have a few people like that that I follow because I'm just like, okay, they're still going. Keep going.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (03:51.528)

Yes.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (03:56.326)

Yeah. Well, the one thing that really resonated with me and making this that I came across because I was, I do a few interviews on my YouTube channel. It's not a podcast because it's too random when it happens, but I talked with Merrick, the guy who made Koala Sampler and I got a quote here from him. So this is from his website for Koala Sampler where he's talking about sort of the inspirations behind Koala Sampler. So if you don't know,

Brian Funk (04:06.914)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (04:14.701)

That's a cool one.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (04:25.939)

Koala Sampler, it's like an SP404 type sampler thing for iOS, Android, and all these other things. And for some people, it's like their main DAW that they use. He said, the idea behind Koala was to make a sampling workstation with no brake pedal, no way to stumble down the rabbit hole of micro editing, tweaking parameters, undoing, redoing, et cetera. I just want people to be less precious about their creations and get on creating.

It's like drawing with a permanent marker instead of a pencil. For some reason, that message just hit me at the right time. I think because I have a tendency to be a perfectionist with the work that I'm doing, which we all do. And what makes you really double down on it is when you spend a long time trying to create something, right? It's like someone who's in graduate school and everything is saying,

Brian Funk (04:58.733)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (05:21.317)

Every fiber of their body is saying, I might not get a job at the end of this, but then they're thinking, but I've already been in school for, you know, a million years. So I got to stay the course. and so you kind of have to set that aside because what happens when you're trying to make something perfect is you would think that would mean you would put more work into it and make it better. But really what happens is you can start self-sabotaging yourself and you can get

Brian Funk (05:25.388)

There.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (05:50.846)

Frozen because you have to make a decision, you know, and instead if you're just thinking I'll make a decision I'll give you a concrete example when this happened is as I was finishing the app I was gonna make a launch video for it and You know three or four years have gone by I was thinking what am I gonna talk about in this video? I could talk about a million things and then finally I came back to this not being precious about the work and just thought Whatever I put down. That's what the video is and that's fine, you know and then

Brian Funk (05:54.562)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (06:20.635)

If anything's not right, then you fix it in the future, you know? Because, yeah, the perfectionism, think it has, just as it's a lens as you're looking at your work, it's also a mirror pointing back at you. It's the same reason why for a long time I couldn't read reviews to my apps, because I was afraid something was gonna be wrong with it, right? So you're just, and I think that applies to everyone. Like, you might be...

Brian Funk (06:43.053)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (06:48.507)

Not wanting to put your music out into the world because what if people reject it? What if you know, you're not as good a guitarist as this guy on tick talk. So who are you to post your stuff? but I think if you just are not precious about it and you just do the work and you're enjoying the process, then that can sort of be the prize right there. It's not about the result. What people think about it. It's great if they like it, but that's largely out of your control.

Brian Funk (07:18.253)

I love that. think it's important because you want to put out this thing and get it done and make it this get it done first of all what does that even mean so you've got to figure out where your line is and of course in your mind you want it to be as good as it can be but you do you get so focused on what it becomes and the product of it and lose sight of the enjoyment and the process and

It takes a lot of fun out of it and like you said, paralyzes you too. I like to think of it sometimes almost like if you're doing a crossword puzzle or something. Like I don't just want the answers, right? I'm not, it's not that I want the answers. I want this thing filled out. It's like, I want to go through it. Specifically, I do like the word all a lot and I do it with my students at school and sometimes like there's a kid in the class that already did the word.

And I'll joke with him and I'll be like, well, just tell us then we don't have to do this. all the other kids are like, no, no, no, no. And I try to explain to him, well, that's kind of like writing. It's not so much what you get. It's also just going through it. It's just creating. And I try to remember that in the music making process because otherwise you can make yourself a little nuts because then you start comparing it with other stuff to see if it is perfect. And you'll always find something.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (08:19.55)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (08:43.969)

to be upset about or disappointed or let down with, or even if it is as perfect as it can be, like you said, that other person on TikTok can just play better guitar than you.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (08:54.555)

Right. I think what I'm searching for is a permission structure to not be perfect. And one way you can find that is sometimes by listening to some of the music you might've listened to when you're a kid, because in your mind, that stuff sounds great. And then you go back and listen to some of it, like some of like the underground bands, and you're like, I mean, what was great is the raw energy and stuff is the song, but the recording isn't so great. And

Brian Funk (09:04.813)

you

Brian Funk (09:13.997)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (09:23.197)

Honestly, if I listen to some of the modern music now, I mean, this is old man yelling at the clouds, but like the loudness war is killing my eardrums. Okay. So like sometimes like something whenever like every beat of the snare and the kick sounds like an explosion after a while, there's just like no dynamics to it anymore. and not that like I'm a professional mix engineer. As a matter of fact, I feel like the type of music I'm more drawn to now.

Brian Funk (09:45.101)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (09:52.572)

It's just like lo-fi beats, stuff I can listen to, I can do what I'm focusing on and the music is more trying to evoke a feeling in the background. It's like, it's setting the mood, you know, as opposed to, hey, look at me, I'm going to do, here comes the shred guitar solo, you're not looking at me.

Brian Funk (10:13.598)

Yeah, right. I feel lucky that I appreciate the lo-fi aesthetic and I like things that are a little rough around the edges. And some of that stuff that I like about music I used to listen to as a kid, it has that. It has that. When you listen back, you're like, wow, they really speed up in this song. Yeah, the vocal is a little, those harmonies aren't perfect or all those things that you can kind of hear now.

At the same time, you're like, but man, they just captured it. They got the feeling. And that's my kind of goalpost now, much more than did I do it right? Did I compress the drums properly? I just want it to sound interesting and cool. And I do like things that are a little fuzzy, like instead of 4K, perfectly clear.

There's some bit of imagination that you have to fill in, I guess. And that sort of stuff.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (11:13.179)

Right. Well, also it's, it's kind of campy, right? You're, you're creating this vibe that has like, it harkens back to an older time where things were actually cut to tape. And, if there are some things that are imperfect in the mix, it's by design, right? Wink, wink. whereas if everything is just like polished and everything else, there's nothing wrong with that. There's a place for that. But if there's been one, you know, side good benefit about.

AI music and all this stuff is like now there We want people to be flawed. We want people to present themselves as they are warts and all Cracking voice and all you know, and I think there's gonna be just increasingly more and more demand for that Unfortunately, we also live in a world with social media. So you're gonna have to try and cut through the algorithm for people to hear it But I also don't think that music is necessarily created

Brian Funk (11:55.148)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (12:13.235)

to get the most number of clicks and likes and things like that. I've played a lot of music, making the presets for those apps, just sitting right here, just playing with sound. It's like I'm not really playing songs, but I'm shaping the sound, right? And then I'm creating songs for demos and stuff like that. And I'll tell you, that fulfills the musical need just as much as...

Brian Funk (12:35.788)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (12:41.019)

recording something and trying to sell it or recording something and trying to beg people to go stream it so that I can earn pennies. So yeah, there's I think I think that's another important thing in this is is sort of not just using other people's motivations for why do we create in the first place, but instead like deconstructing it and saying why do you create and then it's even helpful in

reverse engineering that, if you can look at the outcome and you can steer your motivation towards it. So what I'm sort of saying is you're in games, it's called the wind condition. So you're trying to change the wind condition. So one way that that happened, I, my daughter's nine, I go out and play tennis with her. she has endless energy, right? So, but sometimes I'll get tired and I'll go out there. And one day I just decided,

You know, every day I get to go outside and play tennis with her. It's a great day. Right. So it sort of changed it. There was no longer this focus on, I'm tired. This, the days are endless. But instead it was like, it's just a reframe, right? We all reframe. And, I think that one's really powerful for music, especially in a time where there's so much music that people aren't necessarily sitting around to hear your next song.

They're not waiting for me to create an app that's going to fulfill some need. I created an app that was released a few days ago, then Roland just created a monster app yesterday, then Reason just created a new app today. We're inundated with music and software and everything else. So I think, as we've always said, the art is in the process. I think also the rewards are in the process.

Brian Funk (14:37.356)

I think so, right? For your tennis example with your daughter, I'm sure you're not going out there to win, right? The winning condition is not to defeat your daughter in tennis, right? Okay. Okay, there you go. But yeah, just the fact that you get to do that is cool. That she wants to do it still with you is cool. That you have the opportunity to...

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (14:45.813)

Now.

Well, I don't think I would win anymore. So I had to change the win condition. That's what I'm saying.

Brian Funk (15:06.834)

is great, it's a great way to spend time and you're both lucky and fortunate to be physically able to and to just enjoy the process of it is really nice. I like that concept of the win condition because more and more I think it is just showing up, experiencing it, doing it and I get a lot of what you're saying about making the demos and stuff.

I maybe put more pressure on myself to finish songs and take ideas to completion, but a lot of these like jamuary things, for instance, you know, you got a lot of ideas and some of them might have legs, but some of them are just nice to stick behind the little clips I make for this podcast that I put on Instagram and YouTube shorts. And it just kind of serves as the background music for that. And I'm like, cool, like now it's alive and it's out and.

I don't really have to feel bad about it sitting on a hard drive anymore. That's enough for this particular piece of music.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (16:11.174)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (16:15.975)

Yeah, I mean, would be, it would be disingenuous for me to say that I didn't also want to release more music because like I've said that whenever I look back at my past of I don't wish that my music sounded better. I wish I'd just release more music. Right. And I think that's the case now, but I've, get so focused on making YouTube videos or finishing the next app or just

working on whatever things that you just defer, defer, defer, right? And eventually you'll get to it. which, know, I'm going to, that's something I wanted to ask you about because you, this is like my full-time gig, right? Like I'm working on apps. I'm working on YouTube videos and stuff. You've got, you've have an adult job. so how are, how do you really balance all these things between, because I mean like,

Brian Funk (17:04.971)

That's usually how I call it, my grown up job.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (17:13.437)

You wear so many hats that we probably can't name them, but let's go for some real quick. I do. It's got toe jam on it. yeah. Yeah. Heck yeah. Represent.

Brian Funk (17:17.343)

You have a hat on, I don't have a hat on. It is ToeJam, nice. I think one of the first sampling things I ever did was sample those drums from ToeJam and Earl.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (17:30.57)

Oh really? It's got some funky bass lines in it too, you know? I would say you sample the drums. You know, there's a, if people want to go down the internet rabbit hole, you can search for Dr. Washington. He has this person. Now I don't know if we're going to leave a link to it because it links to like a mega fire site where you can download the thing, you know, those sites are not always the most official, but he created a,

Brian Funk (17:35.753)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (17:56.363)

yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (18:00.903)

basically all of the Sega games dumped the CISX files so that you can load those into something like DeX so you can have all of your all of like the old Sega Genesis games because there's FM synthesis happening on Sega's chip the YM2612 but it's a four operator instead of six operators so you can pull it off with DeX DeX is just kind of overkill for it

Brian Funk (18:11.659)

cool, cool.

Brian Funk (18:18.72)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (18:31.403)

Nice. Yeah, I've got this contraption you hook up to the actual Sega Genesis. It's a cartridge and you can load those in there. I've got to look into how to do it again because it's been a long...

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (18:43.657)

Yeah, oh, oh wait, can load this, you can load the SysX patches to, also I've never heard anyone say this word. I don't know if I'm saying it right or not, but I know it. Okay.

Brian Funk (18:50.441)

you can load

Brian Funk (18:55.027)

That's how I say it, CIS-X. That might just be what I thought it said. Yeah, it's... Man, I gotta remember what it's called right now. It might just be like...

I don't know, it's a cartridge type thing or it's actually, maybe it's even, might be in the control socket. I kind of look at it.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (19:17.501)

Yeah, I think I remember whenever Saga Synth came out there were some pictures of it at the time and so

Brian Funk (19:23.839)

Yeah, that's how I got a lot of those sounds. And I was able to get like, you know, the bass part from Streets of Rage 2, you know, the sound, not the melodies or anything, but then I would sample the sound of it and Sonic the Hedgehog, like certain sounds, know, pad or something. And then you can play that pad, you know, in the Saga synth. And I did a 16-bit Ableton Live Pack.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (19:43.93)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (19:54.057)

with all that stuff.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (19:55.614)

Yeah, that's your podcast intro music, isn't it? From that?

Brian Funk (19:59.05)

Yeah, it is. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, OK. You know what you're talking about.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (20:02.057)

Yeah, Check this out. Alright, so this is, I've said I've been doing some tinkering. I made this little guy. This is called micro dext. Or is it called mini dext? It's called mini dext. It's called mini dext. This thing is a TX8 something. It's the one where it's like the DX7, but there's eight of them. Right?

Brian Funk (20:29.354)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (20:30.077)

So basically engine-wise, it's using Dext, the same engine behind Dext, except for you have eight instances of it. Yes, Dext is.

Brian Funk (20:36.745)

Yeah, that's free VST people can get, right? So we'll put that in the show notes along with all this other stuff that you're telling us about.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (20:46.057)

But yeah, that's another way that like I use that to get some Sega sounds right By using loading in some of those ROM packs I created some like ROM carts for Sega stuff like by going through all of all the video games and just getting the best Sounds it took forever. I mean that's part of whenever you're making sound packs is like you're just in mired in

Brian Funk (20:53.397)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (21:14.813)

gigabytes of sounds and you just go through it like one after another just like me and You know, and then finally find stuff fortunately FM sensitive stuff. It's it's pretty Unique sounding so you kind of know if you have something right away there or not

Brian Funk (21:22.293)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (21:32.371)

Yeah, I've got this right next to me too. It's called Mega FM by Twisted Electronics. And it's, yeah, it's a, I think it's got two of those chips in there, the YM2612s and you know, you can play chords on it and everything. But it is, I will say for like FM synthesis, it's nicely laid out how to program, but it's so...

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (21:38.139)

yeah.

Brian Funk (22:01.678)

easy to just get these really harsh, like painful sounds. It's tough to find things that are pleasant. That chip is just like unhinged. It distorts in this like really digital. And there are some Sega Genesis games that like you listen to the music and you're just like, my God, like so like just chainsaws running around.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (22:07.359)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (22:15.045)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (22:26.866)

Right. Yeah, so that's the difference, right? So you're listening to the actual chip, how it's as opposed to being an emulation of it, because they have emulations of all of these different FM synth chips, because the arcades used a bunch of them too, right? And it's cool to sort of go down that rabbit hole and see what all sounds are where. And then even once you get into the PCM samples, which are the audio samples, they were

Brian Funk (22:55.636)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (22:56.232)

they had a different bit depth to them, right? And so they had a different sound. Things would still, that's why it sounds sort of, the badness sounds nostalgic to it sometimes. Like if you're playing, which one, Link to the Past, you know, like in you're in the woods and it has like the little pad sounds. If you had that on a modern synthesizer, you'd be like.

Brian Funk (23:07.548)

Yeah. Right.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (23:24.23)

what would I use this for? But the fact that it comes from our childhood, it's like, if you experience that, you're like, that's instant nostalgia. I want that. I want more of that. And I think that's what a lot of this like sound pack design comes down to is trying to evoke a feeling of being a child and things like that. One thing that I found though is because one of the sample packs I made was like a tape sample pack running things through different cassette tapes.

which I know you've done, have you found though that sometimes it's like we're more nostalgic for what we think tape sounded like versus what tape actually sounds like?

Brian Funk (24:06.036)

Sometimes, I mean, there have been times I've made things on tape and VCR tapes and felt like it doesn't sound enough like a VCR or it doesn't sound enough like tape. you know, it's hard to tell. So then, like for instance, on some of the tape packs I've made, I've got a layered instrument rack where you've got the thing I sampled and the sound, and then there's another layer and it's just the hiss.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (24:21.447)

Right.

Brian Funk (24:33.532)

And that's just a volume knob you can turn up and down because sometimes you're like, where's the noise? I need more of that. But sometimes it's how you record it. If you, I tend to like to push the tape a little bit by giving more volume to the tape. So it sort of saturates a little, but when you do that, you don't get as much of the hiss because it covers that noise floor. But if you record it at a quiet volume, then you have to turn everything up to really hear it, which makes the hiss come up too.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (24:33.736)

Yeah, yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (24:40.86)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (25:03.534)

So there's this funny choice you have to make. Like, do I want to get that saturation or do I want to hear the noise of the tape in there? you know, sometimes you don't even get to choose just the way the tape machines work. You just get what you get.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (25:21.382)

Right. Well, and then, mean, usually doing something like that, you're like running through a bunch of presets you already have ready, right? And you might be doing one note per octave or you might be doing two notes per octave. usually it's ones that you least would expect sound good. And sometimes if it's a really noisy tape, you do want to raise that noise floor or lower that noise floor, not have as much noise.

Brian Funk (25:47.252)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (25:47.721)

And then sometimes you'll have something that you think is big and beefy and you put it in there and then once you listen back to your recording, it's like, meh. You're like, where did the girth of this sound go? You know, and it just isn't captured. Also has to do with the quality of tape recorder that you're using, you know, like I'd love to get like a little reel to reel thing, but the, with what I was creating, I was trying to do sort of the, the little shoe box tape recorders to get like,

Brian Funk (26:07.24)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (26:17.118)

Yes, rectangle thing, yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (26:17.502)

the extra bad tape noise. One of the ones I used was, I don't know if you know this or not, one of the packs I went to an arcade at this guy's house. So this guy has an arcade collection. He lives on the East Coast. The biggest arcade collection of pre-80s video games on the East Coast. And so I went around with him. His name was Scott and the name of the arcade is

wieners and losers, can actually stay at this Airbnb and play the arcade, all the games in it. And so I went around with him and he was just like, you know, playing the games and I put this up to the speaker on each of them. And so I had like actual arcade sounds that I could create a sound pack with. that was very early in this process of after I talked with you last, at this point,

Brian Funk (27:02.952)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (27:14.346)

The the app was going to be an arcade synth And then just over time everything has changed Also AI came out right and that's that's been a tremendous change in sort of the development space but I'm I am kind of happy to say that I put a Lot of sweat equity into this one. So this isn't like AI vibe coated app in the future

Brian Funk (27:17.95)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (27:41.271)

I probably will be using AI more for coding. And that's sort of where development, it's created a fissure, right, between people who are pro-AI and people that are anti-AI. And unfortunately, it's like polarizing and there's not a lot of space in the middle, you know? Whereas I kind of am in the middle. Like, while I see it as being a useful utility,

whenever you combine it with domain knowledge. So if you already know how to program and you're using AI, then it can be really powerful. But I'm also aware of the fact that it's trained on stolen data. There's a whole generation of junior developers that aren't getting jobs. There are people that are putting out AI slop and the environmental impacts, right? And all these things affect, they don't affect people uniformly.

One way that I was affected recently, which is, know, in my tiny little fiefdom is whenever I tried to submit my app, I had to wait two weeks for it to be approved. And they said that the app review times have gotten super backed up because of all of the AI apps that are, they're getting inundated with. So it's like, yes. Yeah.

Brian Funk (28:58.643)

That's like with the Apple Store, or whatever they call it now. They call it the Apple Store now, or they call it the iPhone? iTunes? It's not iTunes. App Store, right? It's the App Store. Yeah, OK.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (29:05.482)

They call it, I think, App Store. But I think so much it's the App Store that they like, they have a copyright over it or a trademark or whatever. So you can't call your App Store the App Store. They are App Store.

Brian Funk (29:16.297)

Hmm.

Yeah. There's an app for that. Remember those commercials? There's an app for that. So.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (29:24.86)

Yeah. But yeah, I don't want to dwell on AI for too long, but I will say it especially affects people who are getting affected by generative AI. And some people with coding, kind of, there's a weird arbitrary line that people draw for it right now where they'll say, if you could have created the code on your own, then it's okay to use AI. But if you don't know what you're doing, then it's not okay. And

To me, that just feels kind of like still gatekeeping a little bit because whenever I was learning to code, I was self-taught, right? And this was like 15 years ago. I was going on to developer forums and I, you know, get berated by people who know 10 % more than you. That's what happens on those forums. But I'm not going to say no, you have to get berated to learn stuff because you can use AI and learn at the same time.

But that aside, generative AI is a different beast. And of course with Suno and things like that. And again, AI is the big thing that has changed since the last time we talked. Whenever we were talking last time, I was talking about how open source was so important because it was empowering people to create these things they couldn't create on their own. Well now AI is doing that. The only problem is we don't know that it's not stealing this stuff. And in fact,

We kind of think it is stealing the stuff and we're just not paying attention to it. But with music, it does feel like it's different this time, but however, we've sort of lived through this with all these different things over the years. Whenever I was in college, LimeWire and Napster came out and we thought like, well, this is it, music's worthless. Then suddenly YouTube and Spotify have all the music and they're just.

not paying anything out really to people, especially Spotify. So it's like, well, this is the end again. Then the pandemic happened and people were not going on tour anymore. It's like the service industry and performance industry just stopped. It's like, well, this is the end of the road. so somehow through all of this, we've, we've found ways forward, you know, and I am confident that's going to happen again, but an unfortunate

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (31:49.823)

byproduct of this is the infighting that's occurred. That like, if you're an artist and you're touching AI to a non-zero percent of your audience, you've sullied it. So you have a couple of options. You can choose not to use AI. You can use AI, but then just hide it. Or you can use AI and try to educate people on where you used it and why you used it.

Brian Funk (31:53.875)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (32:19.71)

and things like that, which is what I've tried to do with open source development now. I, because I am creating open source products and or projects and sharing them with people, the code is free, right? But since other people are ingesting that code into their projects, they need to know the source of the work because some people are vehemently opposed to it. just like if you gave someone of a hamburger and they're vegan and you're like,

Guess what? It actually is real meat. Like, that's not cool, you know? So part of like being transparent is being considerate. But people that are transparent about using AI need to get over this stigma that just because you used AI doesn't mean that you didn't create something, doesn't mean that it's just totally vibe coded. But unfortunately it's super murky right now. And four years from now when I've

Brian Funk (32:51.6)

Right.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (33:18.792)

release my next app, it's probably going to look totally different.

Brian Funk (33:21.897)

Yeah, I guess that's the one thing we know. It will probably be a different story. Yeah, I don't know. There's things about it, obviously, that are really helpful and nice and other things that, you know, I guess, you asked me a little while back about...

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (33:29.075)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:45.789)

balancing things. I think it's important to say I come at this from this perspective as I do have the grown-up job where that's what I rely on for survival. Anything I make off music is just the side hustle, although I think about it at least half the amount of time.

I haven't worried too much about it. for one, like, like we talked about the process, like I like doing it. So it's, you can't play my guitar for me, right? It can't make a sound. I can make a sound form, but it can't, I, I like making the sound. I like discovering it and finding it and creating it. So that, you know, whatever.

As far as the choices in my music making, I like solving the problems, even though they drive me crazy sometimes. I do enjoy all that stuff. And as you also said, I'm finding myself really appreciating more of the human quality in the music I listen to and in the music I'm creating. The next thing I'm going to release, which will be pretty soon, I've...

got it mastered and everything. thanks to Animus NVIDIUS who edits this podcast for doing the mastering. It's all acoustic music that these are songs that what you will hear is the first time I hear it too, where you're writing a song and you're getting it together and you're like, all right, let's see if I can play through it. And that's the recording that I have. it's...

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (35:38.068)

Ooh.

Brian Funk (35:41.169)

And I'm trying to think of a name for this album, something like along the line. I need a word that means like the moment a song is born, you know, the first time it comes out into the world. But that's what I'm capturing in this. yeah, like I could play them better now. could probably even, there's a few parts I might tighten up or alter and arrange slightly differently, but I really just enjoy these.

moments of when I'm in the zone with this song and like, okay, let's see if I can get through it. And this is how it's supposed to go. Whereas in the past, I might've been like, okay, well that was cool. Nice that I recorded that, but let me now properly do it. I'm enjoying that kind of stuff. And also I think I'm spending less time on social media because there's so much AI on it. it's...

making me say like, whatever, I don't even want to be on here anymore. So I'll be on like Instagram or something, is probably YouTube, I guess is the one I really spend the most time on. But I'll be watching a video on YouTube of something I'm really interested in. And once I realized that it's an AI video, it's got the voiceover and I'm like, I'd lose something. And I'm realizing the people that I follow on YouTube, it's as much their personality as.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (36:37.033)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (37:02.118)

what they're talking about. They're little jokes or little subtle things. I'm even just watching your video about the story behind, I think it was this one, the story behind Mighty Synth Sampler, where you go into this kind of like, what were you saying? I'm trying to like right now, but you kind of do this funny voice thing and you cut to different angles of you saying, sampler. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (37:29.652)

Bro, you're talking about the SuperSaw.

Brian Funk (37:32.871)

Super saw, yeah, super saw. And you go like for it. And just like that is fun, you know? And even the fact that you went into like, and this would be like having two million salt waves playing at the same time. I like that. I like the joke. I like the humor, the silliness. There's a person behind it that's really dedicated to their work. They're also not.

taking themselves too seriously, but they're passionate. That's a fun collection of traits that I really appreciate about your work is you're obviously passionate about it you do take it seriously, but you don't take it too seriously and that you have a sense of humor about it. And I might be tied into what you're saying about keeping things from becoming too precious, but all of that stuff is impossible.

through the machine.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (38:33.958)

Right, right. yeah. Well, first of all, thank you. But also well said. Yeah, you threaded that really nicely because I totally agree that it is like the storytelling and being human is the commodity, right? Is like is and and you're absolutely right that the perfectionist part comes in. mean, part of the the joking is also like make fun of yourself first so no one else can, you know, like that's the

Brian Funk (38:35.656)

I can't feel any of that.

Brian Funk (39:02.034)

Hehehe.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (39:02.804)

That's the defense tactic of anyone who's ever been in high school. So, but yeah, that AI, it can give you pointers on storytelling, but it can't actually tell the story and it can't give your unique perspective of events, you know? If it could, then they would have figured it out and it would all resonate with us, but also different things resonate differently with different people.

If I'm saying something about don't be too precious about your work and you're a slacker and you never get anything done, maybe you don't need that message. But for someone who has a, a perfectionist tendency and are so. Absorbed and just thinking about the, what they're creating and how people are going to receive this. It's like, you just got to like, shut that voice up, you know?

Brian Funk (39:42.993)

Right, yeah, sure.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (40:01.93)

And you sometimes do that by being like, this isn't such a big deal. And that's freeing. It's so freeing because then you're like, I know that there are more projects in my life that I want to get done than I'm going to get done. And that has to be okay. But whenever you are have like sort of that hat on of like, okay, I just, I need to get this thing done, this thing, and then I'll be above water. It's never going to happen. You know, I

Brian Funk (40:16.925)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (40:28.01)

I felt like once I released this app, like I was going to be done and then immediately jumped right into stuff, you know? And then I'm thinking about the next thing. I'm thinking about sound packs, which was one of the big things I want to talk to you about. It's like making sound packs. And what I love about what you've done with sound packs is we're all little sisyphuses, sisyphetuses pushing our stones up the hill, right? And, uh,

Your stone has been sound packs, man. It's been sound packs. It's been Ableton. It's been this podcast. And at least from the outside looking in, it's like you've, you've, I'm going to mix metaphors. You've refined the diamond, but you haven't changed course. And I feel like in my career as a do all the things I've just changed a lot. Like I was

In Nashville, I was a guitarist. That was my whole thing, playing guitar for people. Then I got into software development, creating apps. Then I got into game development, which while I was making apps, game development is totally different from other stuff. Then I got into the audio development stuff and I got into the YouTube stuff. And I've just sort of burned the bridge to my past self a lot of times once I get onto the next thing.

because I'm excited about it with this whole learning curve of going up synths like before I was totally in it. I'm still totally in it. But now that I've created an app that was a sampler, people are like, how can you change the DAC level? Okay, so I'm pretty naive when it comes to samplers, but I'm seeing there's a whole other world with samplers that's different from synths. And I'm kind of excited to start going up that learning curve next, you know?

Um, but you seem like you've, you've carried it with you. It's like, it's been from the outside looking in. know it never feels like this from the person, but it seems like you saw what was ahead of you and you just marched on towards it. Right? Like there was a rhyme and reason to each move with this because now how many sample packs have you released? It's like 250 plus now.

Brian Funk (42:48.967)

Something like that. But no, it doesn't feel like that from here. It feels more the way you described yourself. And I don't know, maybe that's just how it is from the inside. It wasn't a mission. It wasn't a plan. It was kind of try this thing. Oh, now I'm into this. I didn't know I was going to get into this or that or the other thing. Maybe when you look back, things sort of make more sense.

No, I guess, kind of like you, when you were describing yourself, you were following what was interesting to you, and it went into different types of developments, but you're into this development thing, and how people make the things that we use. To me, that looks like kind of your stamp. Like, yeah, that's what you're doing.

And sometimes I can look at myself and be like, I'm all over the place. Like, sure, I've been sticking with a few things along the way, but they're kind of just all these random interests that have come up. so I don't necessarily feel like that about myself.

It's kind of cool to hear that you think I do. You think I have a plan, but.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (44:04.842)

Well, I guess but part of the not being precious about things is you you don't want to take too much stock in what other people think but yeah, I think Whenever you're working all the time. I mean I imagine you You know if since you have the adult job and then you get home and you have so much output here You're probably spending a lot of time working and whenever you're just working working working you've often you're Put yourself last

Like the last thing you do is sort of stop and reflect on things. If I release a YouTube video, chances are my video file, I haven't even saved the project. Like I have uploaded the file right away and then I'm like, thumbnail. All right, let's get the thumbnail going. You do the thumbnail and then like while the ink is not even dry yet, you're onto the next thing, right? Just keep going, going, going, going. And it's like, you don't really have the time to stop and correct course, you know, which

Brian Funk (44:56.228)

Hmm. Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (45:04.19)

I'm saying it like a bad thing, but it's a good thing a lot of times, right? Because you don't want to just do one thing and stop and evaluate it and be like, how did this go?

Brian Funk (45:14.161)

Well, especially with YouTube, something like that, because you get all this data and you can look at when people stopped watching your videos, what the high points were. You can AB video titles and thumbnails and you can really leverage that and probably expand your platform and get more revenue from AdSense and whatever.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (45:16.628)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:41.914)

And you can get caught up in it too. I guess, yeah, I'm just like, I don't really want to do that. I just want to keep going and doing something. And probably that's to go back to what I'm saying about having a job. I don't have to, you know, I don't have to make sure I'm maximizing every one of these things. I can just make something else. And if I get lucky and something hits and I make a pack and people want to buy it, great. But if not, I can just make another one.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (46:12.274)

Right, right.

Brian Funk (46:12.647)

And all of these things are really motivated, I think, much like you, in that I want to explore this. So the podcast is now nine years running. And if it dried up where I just didn't have anyone I felt like talking to anymore, I wouldn't do it. It would just end. But it's like, you sent me an email, like the app's coming out. like, cool. Yeah, let's catch up. Let's talk.

I find someone here and then I reach out and I want to know what this person thinks about that or the other thing. That just keeps it going. And the same thing with the sound packs and doing Ableton Live sample packs. I still love using Ableton Live as much as ever. It's always exciting as you're discovering with the Mighty Synth Sampler. You put a sample in there and sometimes you think it's going to be awesome and it's...

it's not or it's awesome in a totally new way, there's always an element of surprise. There are certain things, I guess, about making music where you kind of know what's going to happen. If I know, like, if I'm going to boost, like, the frequency, 1K, I kind of know what that's going to be or I kind of know what it's going to sound like if I decide to compress this sound, you know, this technical stuff.

When I put something in the sampler and I reverse it and I play it at like way pitch shifted, it's always kind of surprising and interesting. And what's also surprising is like how it makes you feel when you hear those sounds. And next thing you know, you were designing a sound and now you're making up a song. So these like surprise places you wind up can only happen if you just search for what is interesting and it's still interesting.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (47:56.648)

Right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (48:07.172)

music is like that it's that infinite rabbit hole like you were saying about the guy from Koala Sampler. You can just keep finding new stuff.

I think I got lucky in making the podcast because it's this platform where it's an excuse to talk to people, right? Like, you know, sometimes it's weird to, you know, call someone up and just talk, even, even like your friends. It's like, Hey, like I was saying hi, you know, that's like weird now, but, having the fact that we're going to do a podcast and suddenly you're talking to all kinds of people.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (48:41.099)

Yeah

Brian Funk (48:49.356)

or you're going to make an app and now you're designing all these sounds because you got to make sounds for your app. And these things like feed each other in a lot of ways. Playing with a band, know, same thing like, we got to make a song. Okay. What do we want to play? I got this idea. Let's and then it happens, but it, it, there's that vehicles there and you just get in and go for a ride.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (48:59.401)

Right. Well, I think there's...

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (49:14.879)

Yeah, so we're, are getting meta because we're talking about your podcast on the podcast. But one thing that I have noticed is that there is a through line there that it doesn't matter which guest I'm listening to. They have like a similar. We're all in the same space, but looking at it from different areas. So it's like each conversation is different because you're getting a different perspective of the same picture. Right.

Brian Funk (49:19.92)

Uh-huh.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (49:44.702)

And it's great to hear from, you know, the big names, the Roger Lenz and the Jordan Rudeces, but it's also cool. Like I've listened to one today of a DJ who's also a teacher. and just hearing his perspective and what he's teaching kids, and talking, you know, doing case studies of what Rihanna is doing, because that is so not my world now. I went to school for music business, but like anything I would have learned back then is.

out the door, you know, social media was my space at that point. So there is like, it's nothing like what it is now. but I also think we, we sometimes are guilty of looking at the person who's the most famous, the, the most financially successful, and we aspire to be that person as opposed to just being someone who's in the moment and enjoying

you know, tinkering, turning knobs. Like you probably, whenever you were messing with the FM synth behind you, the little, the mega thing, it's kind of like that's in a quiet moment where it's just you playing with the device and you're just exploring. It's, and there's something special about that, but it's not monetized. And it's also not something you're sharing on social media. It's like you're just in the moment actually creating something and

whenever we're so focused on, now if you want to write a song, yeah, you gotta do the demo. Now you're gonna, you need to make it sound good. You're gonna need to make a video for it also. That's too long, you need to make a short for it. we don't have a square video? Okay, record a video in square orientation too, because Instagram likes that. And at the end of it, you've done like all the, and then you get some likes on it, like okay.

Brian Funk (51:33.03)

you

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (51:39.936)

Then you go into the gamification mode and you're looking at your analytics. Like, okay, they like, they fell off this part. Okay. I got to get straight to the guitar solo because they didn't even stick around for that. And you just lose sight of the whole point of like creating music. I think that's, I think that's another reason that we like listening to music. We listened to whenever we were growing up is because there were all these possibilities then, you know, it sort of takes you back to that time where.

Brian Funk (51:51.791)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (52:09.653)

playing guitar and jamming out in front of the mirror, you're just sort of dreaming about those things, but you're still just having a fun time in your room learning guitar, just going up the learning curve. And I hope increasingly so, as it's harder for musicians to make a living in music, that they can find rewards from that and that they can somehow change that to be their win condition.

I went and played tennis with my daughter today. I made some synth presets today. Maybe those can be the things that lead to your fulfilling life. And if you don't become Kanye West, that's okay. He's not my goal person, but I've seen people who are like, I want to be, you know, it doesn't have to be him, just any big name celebrity. They want to be that person, have that level of fame, have all these people love them, you know? And,

Brian Funk (52:38.277)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (53:07.687)

Another thing, whenever I was a musician in college, I would look at all these other bands that were famous, quote unquote. They were bands that were just like, I think you have a tendency to always look ahead of yourself. Who's like on the next rungs ahead of you. So while I was in like a post hardcore band, I would look at the other bands that had made it. And a lot of those bands were done like after that album, whatever album it was that I was in love with in the early 2000s.

They were kind of done. Some of them are coming back now on like nostalgia reunion tours, you know? But I think we get sort of wash, we get wrapped up in what other people's values are and we don't like stop and reflect on what our own values are. And then you don't realize that you can create your own values, right? And you can formulate them to where like,

Brian Funk (54:02.126)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (54:05.705)

You can say that every day that I play music is a good day. And so then you start playing music and you feel satisfied with that. You can do the same thing and you can say, man, I'm playing music every day, but I'm not as famous as this guy over here. need to post more videos. you get just, you know, you're trying to feed the algorithm instead of just focusing on you and your limited time on this earth to create something cool. You know?

Brian Funk (54:34.223)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (54:35.101)

And yeah, we hope to make some money from it, but God, that can't be the goal. It can't always be the goal, you know? Like, you just, you know, in the UK, they have something that we've lost here in America, and it's a thing called hobbies. We just don't have hobbies. A hobby becomes a side hustle. you can knit pretty well, or you can bake pretty well. You need to start selling that stuff, you know, to make money for it.

Brian Funk (54:57.157)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (55:03.551)

What if you just enjoy baking? You know?

Brian Funk (55:06.693)

Or you like baking? Are you any good? You know, you play guitar, are you good? Do you play out? you like, are you making, like all these, we do that a lot to whatever hobby people have. Oh, you like to paint? Do you do anything good? Like, have you ever had an art gallery? Like all of a sudden it has to be justified with all of this. And you mentioned like playing guitar in the mirror when you were a kid and imagining, you know, what you can do.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (55:10.675)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (55:36.112)

You're only imagining those high points, know, those moments maybe like on stage or something when everyone's going crazy. You're not imagining sleeping on the floor. You're not imagining being in a room of lawyers telling you that you need this or that, or executives that say they need another song like that last one. And I've talked to a lot of people that really lament the fact that they can't just play their guitar.

they have to be making it. gotta be, this is the job, this is the work. I talked to a guy recently that I work with that said he's doing photography over the weekend, but it was like an engagement thing, know, like engagement photos. He's like, yeah, you know, now I have to like make money doing it.

and I don't just take pictures. It's like I'm going out to do these photos that I've done a million times. We're go out on the golden hour and we're gonna do all the same poses. You lose that sometimes. I've had some moments with the guys in my band where we're just playing and we're kind of like, you know, we don't have to do this and it doesn't matter.

if we are ready for the show or we get, we have our goals of like recording the song by then it's like we got to do it however we want. And, maybe that's where we have it the best possible way in a lot of ways that it's still pure and it's still only, we don't have any delusions of fame at this point and all of that. and, and I don't think we want it either.

I, some of the stuff playing in bands, like going and doing little mini tours, I had a lot of fun, but I didn't want to do that for 50 weeks a year. You know, we did like two week tours and I was like, all right, let's go home. Like that was great. We had the time of our lives, but ready to go home. You know, like I don't want to have to do that and suffer my health and not have any kind of relationships with people that are.

Brian Funk (57:56.026)

genuine and there's always a cost for all that.

So we don't fantasize that, you know, in our fantasies, it's just like, yay, all the fun of being that person and their success. And when you compare yourselves to them, you're just seeing the parts you want to see. You know, I think even when you mentioned Kanye West, you started to realize like, he's an example of somebody that has gone off the deep end quite a bit, quite a few times that he's hard to be a person to aspire to want to be anymore. But

I think there's probably a lot of those sides to just like there's for everything. Nothing is, you know, all moon lights and rainbows and unicorns.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (58:48.125)

Yeah, I just I I don't see it getting any easier to make music and to make a living with music So I just I just think finding ways like you talking about playing music with your friends and getting ready for the show I don't miss the show. I miss playing music with my friends, right? Like I I miss that time of hanging out

Brian Funk (59:04.581)

you

Brian Funk (59:10.981)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (59:15.815)

And I still love to play music, but it just looks very different now. Instead, it's for a YouTube video where I'm exploring different synth patches, whereas before it would have been, you know, really that's whenever I try to do the perfection thing too, is like, okay, I need to know all these parts. And then you, you know, what are you going to do? You're going to have a little liquid courage at the same time. And so like, it's just not who I am anymore. Like I'm not going to go.

Beyonce, I mean, it's 10 o'clock, it's bedtime, okay? I remember there were some shows that we'd play where we wouldn't start until, even the opening bands wouldn't start until after 10 because it'd be on a college campus, you're waiting for everyone to show up. The music business was so different back then because, yeah, social media wasn't a thing, but it was also like, I played with some artists. I was in Nashville at the time whenever like,

Brian Funk (59:48.451)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (59:57.317)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:00:13.831)

after Taylor Swift was big for the first time. And so there were a lot of young artists whose parents were trying to make them sort of the next hit person, you know? And so a lot of it was like playing showcases and things like that. But you're really just waiting for someone to give you your big break. It wasn't something that you could go out and grab yourself. And I do feel like that's been one good thing is it does seem like more artists are in

power to create things for themselves now. Like some of those gatekeepers are gone. But in their place, the new gatekeeper isn't a gatekeeper, it's just that everyone is doing it. You have to, right, right.

Brian Funk (01:00:56.354)

the floodgates, yeah, it's coming out of the noise.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:01:01.799)

Yeah. but yeah, I mean, I, I, so now that I've, I'm sort of gotten done with this synth, the sampler app, I want to start making these sound packs, but I want to get back to making music too. And it's not going to be like what it was before. It's probably going to be like vibey lo-fi stuff that is just chill that if I'm doing live streams or something, it can be in the background. cause that's what I listened to. It's what I want to make. And it's also.

Again, it's another one of these like interesting learning curves to go up to. don't, if I pick up my guitar and I start playing right now, it's gonna be a bunch of like blues shred licks. And I'm just, I'm over that stuff, man. Before the internet was what it was, I was a great guitar player. And then the internet came out and you're like, maybe I was good for my town, but.

Brian Funk (01:01:53.398)

You

Brian Funk (01:01:57.509)

There's thousands of seven year olds that can run circles around you now.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:02:01.311)

my gosh, especially on the keyboard, right? I mean on the guitar too, but keyboard has been a different beast for me. I've literally learned how to play it, creating synth patches, just sitting right here sort of playing stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's how I've learned stuff about synthesis too. It's been through coding it and then Matthew will put some kind of new feature, like he'll add cross mod in one of his new synths. And I'm like,

Brian Funk (01:02:05.305)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:02:14.18)

That's cool. But a cool way, actually, right?

Brian Funk (01:02:30.371)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:02:30.923)

Ooh, what does that do? I can create a bell tone with it. So I love that stuff. That's just a great way of just discovery by just messing through all those things.

But now that this app is out, I don't know what my next chapter's gonna look like, but I hope it's not constantly sitting in front of this computer. Like, I love the work I do. I'm also 43, I'll be 44 later this year, and I just feel like if I don't go out more mountain biking, just go out in the world more, I mean, maybe even take this thing out and create

sample packs with it. That's what I really want to aspire to do. Like I would rather do that than be Kanye West. Kanye is going to be my running gag.

Brian Funk (01:03:23.492)

Well, there is a good way to, it's a good way for you to kind of marry the two, right? Like you get outside, but you've also got this musical mission with you. You know, you got the, the, the field recorder and you seeing what happens. You've got your app now where you can drop your samples in. And, that's a cool way to go about it. So I.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:03:37.237)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:03:49.216)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:03:51.277)

I guess like that's another one of these human things, right? That you can combine your interests and see almost like the way people combine genres where you can bring this out with you and you'll get inspired in different ways.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:04:10.793)

I want to do that, but I also am hoping that I have this thing set up eventually where it just empowers other people to create stuff. So then I can just like, I can just be a fan of what other people are putting out, right? so that they can do, they can experiment with sound and stuff like that. Before the AI boom, I was making tutorials for developers, like showing them how to do stuff with audio kit and I was making open source projects. This, that stuff's just gone now.

Right? Like you can still make tutorials, but people are not going to tutorials to learn stuff. They're going, they're just headed straight to Google or headed straight to Claude or whatever. it's not to say there's not value in that stuff anymore, but it's just like its utility has greatly diminished.

Brian Funk (01:04:57.838)

Well, you got to give Claude and AI something to source from. yeah, doing your part.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:05:02.827)

That's right. Yeah, I'm feeding it and it really does like It's interesting because you can you can hand it your own documentation for stuff and you can say follow just what I have here So then it's not really pulling from these external sources You're really just like feeding it with these type parameters and that always does better than if you say Make me an action figure and it could be anything, right?

And then it spits out He-Man and you're like, no, I wanted it to be a Centaur. Why didn't you do that? You know, but you find there's sort of a feedback loop and a lot of times with it encoding the, the, it's not the AI that's the problem. It's you are the problem because you aren't giving enough feedback to it. You're not giving clear direction because it's just a dumb robot. It's a dumb robot that knows everything, right? But you need to give it, you need to steer it in the right direction.

Brian Funk (01:05:37.891)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:06:01.099)

but I don't know the AI stuff. It's not going to stay like it is right now, but I'll tell you, it's some of that stuff I was saying about gen AI and how people hate gen AI. It's spilled over into the development space now. like developers, if everyone was using it responsibly, like a, an expert touching AI, then it would be different. But there are people that don't care about their work. They'll just generate some slop and they'll.

Release it and then it just kind of It dampens the whole thing for everybody. It makes people that hate AI hate AI more it makes people that use it as a tool Just want to distance themselves more from no, I I don't I don't make slop You know and but I will tell you without naming names in the audio space The biggest audio developers I can tell you are using AI

from the biggest framework for making audio, the head guy from that, to the largest open source synth, those people are using AI. And unapologetically so, one of them has been developing so long he said like, if you're gonna criticize me for using AI, let me see how you arrange your punch cards. So he's going back to the Fortran days.

Brian Funk (01:07:27.812)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:07:30.685)

And I guess if you've been developing long enough, you've probably seen all these new things come in and sort of change the game over time. But ultimately, I think what's important and what hasn't changed if you're using, no matter what you're making something with, is you have to be empathetic to what pain point you're trying to solve for your users. And I think we get caught up in

hey, I'm gonna create this cool thing that's gonna impress people rather than what's the problem that I'm creating a solution for? Because that can be the wind in your sail again. That it's like you start thinking about, in my case, trying these people who had contacted me saying I wanna make a sampler app, I wanna make an app just like yours, and it's like, well maybe I'll make an app where you can put your sounds in it. Then you don't have to make the app.

Brian Funk (01:08:27.543)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:08:28.053)

then you can focus on doing what you do well, which is being a sound designer, right? And I can do what I do well, which is sitting in front of my computer.

Brian Funk (01:08:33.08)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:08:38.083)

Yeah, we do find ourselves running into a lot of other things to solve problems, you know, that we have, like even just, I mean, like I've got a camera here. I never get involved in what a camera does and how to work it, but I'm trying to solve the problem of getting stuff out there about the music and the conversations we're having. And so you wind up going there.

I kind of wish I did have an AI that would just like be a good camera for me and I didn't have to think about it, you know, like, cause I don't care. All right. That's not my interest is not in the photography aspect of this. Not, it's just not my interest. know, photography is amazing. think anyone that pulls out a camera in 2026 and takes a picture when you've got a phone that's really good at it. I think that's really a cool thing to do.

That's art in there, just making that decision to take a camera, you know, when you could just, you got one in your phone. yeah, like we do go in a lot of these directions. for someone that wants to be able to put their own samples in a thing, like your app or any app,

that they don't have to build it themselves is a cool thing. So that's a great service that you're providing and I'm sure it's gonna unlock a lot of creativity for other people.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:10:12.768)

Yeah, yeah, mean, was specifically people wanted to make apps that were powered by AudioKit. So that's the software that's behind all this. AudioKit, yeah, so Matthew Fetcher is with AudioKit Pro, not to be confused with AudioKit, the audio framework. So the two are not the same, but yeah. So it's...

Brian Funk (01:10:21.251)

And that's the Matthew we keep talking about Matthew Fetcher

Huh.

Brian Funk (01:10:38.635)

Okay.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:10:40.564)

I've kind of like tried to differentiate the two, but every time I do that, it keeps coming back to the point where somebody made a sample pack for my app and they put it inside of their AudioKit pack with like all the AudioKit Pro stuff. And I was like, well, it's not an AudioKit Pro app, that's, get, I can see the confusion a little bit. I do think that like part of the revenue from the AudioKit Pro apps goes to support AudioKit, the framework.

regardless of like who developed the app. So there's some kind of split that's happening there. but just like a few months ago, Ari, who's the other, he's the guy who started audio kit and kind of co-founded it with Matthew. I think what Matthew did is he, he brought Swift into the equation and he worked with Ari to create their first sense that they made. so early on in the development of audio kit, he, he was totally instrumental with it.

And now he's instrumental with it, but in another way. Like he's not committing code to the code base so much, but he is releasing apps under the AudioKit Pro name, which is then generating revenue to keep the whole ship afloat, you know?

And that's my summation of it. It may be slightly different from what I said, but suffice to say the two aren't the same. But whenever I made my original Overdrive synth app, I had used AudioKit as the engine. And so whenever people wanted to create apps, was, that was my point of reference is like, okay, I'll teach people how to make AudioKit synth apps. And so that's the differentiator of this particular sampler.

is it's a sampler built on top of AudioKit stuff. So it's almost like you get to become your own Matthew Fetcher and make your own AudioKit Pro app, because it's using the same filters, it's using the same reverb, all this stuff that's built into the AudioKit framework, which then ties to other open source libraries like Soundpipe and things like that, which is a DSP library for all these various effects.

Brian Funk (01:12:58.413)

Hmm. It's a cool app. I do want to talk about, I know you're, you don't want to be too salesy and all, but I think this is an important point. said this before we started recording. I mean, creatives are kind of notoriously, anti self-promotion and you know, if they feel cringy, it cheapens it. They're not sales people, they're artists and all. So, I'll.

I'll help steer that part of the conversation that it is a really cool app and it's nicely laid out. It's simple to use. It's on iOS, but also you got it on your Mac too, your computer. Is it just Mac though? Because I think it's AU3. I'm not sure how that works.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:13:39.244)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:13:45.769)

Yes, it's AUV3 and AudioKit in and of itself is built on top of Apple software. So if I were to try and make it cross-platform off of Apple stuff, it would be a big headache. So that's sort of the advantage to it is it's easier to get up and running because you're using AudioKit, but you are stuck just to Apple's ecosystem, which for mobile is okay because Android doesn't have the concept of a plugin yet. Right. So.

Brian Funk (01:13:52.653)

Okay.

Brian Funk (01:14:09.472)

Yeah, but.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:14:15.872)

That's fine. But yeah, you lose the Windows users and Linux users. everything I have is Apple and I'm on Mac. I'm not like an Apple fanboy by any stretch of the imagination. Part of the reason that I have all their stuff is because you have to pay the Apple tax. if you want to see if your stuff works on the latest device, you got to buy the latest device. They're not going to give it to you. But...

Brian Funk (01:14:40.844)

Hmm, right.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:14:44.296)

Unfortunately, this AUV3 thing, was, whenever we did the last podcast, it was a relatively new technology, which is basically just plug-in, the plug-in format, where also you have a UI built into it and everything else. And it's just an extension, so you still have your app as it's standalone, but then you can use a plug-in view of it in whatever your DAW is. And...

Brian Funk (01:15:09.11)

Yeah, and it's cool. And I like that you have just the effects of it. So you can just use the effects you have in there separately to process audio, almost like some synths allow you to route audio through. this is just that, which is nice, and just the sampler end of it. So it's very convenient. It's easy to use. And it's cool that you can have it on your computer and then on the go.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:15:13.269)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:15:33.803)

Yeah, the idea is to make it like a full utility belt, like the Batman utility belt, where, you know, because there is like the MIDI controller you can use. Like I'm working on it currently, but I'm adding like an arpeggiator inside of the MIDI processor that you can use in AUV3. So now everyone will have like a free arpeggiator when they have the app also. And then they don't even have to use it with my app. They can use it on their own apps that they have, you know.

Brian Funk (01:15:40.481)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:16:03.542)

That's sort of like the beauty of this whole AUV3 thing. So rather than looking and trying to think what is the next app I want to release, I'm just going to keep experimenting with this and just keep adding stuff to it, which is counter to what I did previously. Previously, I was kind of just like releasing stuff and then I, you know, okay, that's done. What's next? What's next? I've, I've released over a hundred apps, like in the time that I've been a developer.

Some of them share a similar code base, like I did a bunch of radio streaming apps, which are basically the same except for you have a different curated list, you have different icons and all that stuff. once you know how to handle streaming properly, you can use it in all these other internet radio apps. But I had friends all along the way who would just have one app, and that would be their main app.

A buddy of mine made this app called Pocket Yoga. What's up Sergio? He got featured by Apple. They gave out his app at Starbucks, like a free download thing for it. But that has been his one app and he's just stuck with it. That's what Merrick has done with Koala Sampler. I think he'd released a couple other apps, but he's just devoted all of his time to it.

Brian Funk (01:17:04.45)

Thank

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:17:28.086)

That's what I kind of want to do with this is give it some time instead of just like releasing it and looking on to what's next is just see how I can like work on this and evolve it over time. And then really just listen to people and hear what do they want? Because basically what I've done with this app is what the advice I've told people not want to do. I say don't spend too long on an app. Have your idea be as small as possible and then just

have that one feature and shine on it. And for some reason, I don't know, stupidity, I was like, I think what happened is I thought this was going to be an easy app to make. I'm going to make a sampler and people can put their sounds in it. Well, I used the wrong engine at first. I was using Apple's sampler they had built in. So I had to get rid of that. So then I started using this Dunn sampler, which is another sampler inside of AudioKit.

Well, doesn't have what I needed, so I needed to sort of fix that. And then you just keep on adding things and adding things. One of the late additions I added was I was like, man, I wonder if I could get unison mode to work. And it changed the app. I was like, this unison mode sounds great. Well, guess I better go redo all the presets again. You know? And so it's like just each thing just kept on pushing it further and further. I think once I realized I had to redo the presets,

Brian Funk (01:18:46.244)

You

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:18:53.354)

That's when I was on the bike ride listening to your podcast and I was like, I'm going on Brian Fung's podcast. It all comes back to that. But, I loved it. The, the, reception from people has been great. You know, I've, I tried not to get too tied up with it, but I've also had enough experience now that I knew people were going to need things fixed, like right after the launch. The, the first apps that I released, I'd never really thought about that.

You know, and also it's different when it's music apps because there's a really strong community for mobile music apps and people are hungry for it. People that have a feature requests and things like that. Whenever you launch a game, people just accept it as a game and they like it or they don't like it. Whenever you do a streaming app. Yeah, they expect it to work, but the feature requests they are, can you put a sleep timer in it? You know, it's not something like this where someone's like,

Can you invert the polarity of the envelopes? And you're like, I don't know what you said, but I'm going to ask Claude about it. No, I'm going to Google it. But then it becomes the whole thing where you're learning. You're learning with it. And that's how I'm learning about the sampler now. I've realized that I created in my mind what I thought a sampler was without looking at all these conventions and

Brian Funk (01:19:58.38)

Okay.

Brian Funk (01:20:08.512)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:20:20.604)

You know years and decades of works that have gone into samplers. That's why people are like let me change the bitrate. Let me change different ways. So I assumed with a sampler whenever you play a higher note if you have it just sort of pitch shifted it's almost like if you're playing a tape faster, right? Like it's just going to play faster. Apparently there's different ways of interpolating the pitch changes so you could keep the attack shorter.

Brian Funk (01:20:40.769)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:20:50.57)

and then have it, or you can have the sound be the exact same length, but it's just pitch shifted. That stuff's magic and I'm not gonna add it, but I'm just saying those things exist, right? And so it's another one of these fun things where as people request stuff, you start learning about it and then you have more of appreciation of sort of this whole ecosystem. Whenever I got into the synth stuff, I had...

Brian Funk (01:21:03.969)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:21:18.26)

I didn't, I knew I liked the sound of synths, but I didn't know that I loved a Juno, right? I didn't know how the J8 is different from, or like a Jupiter is different from a Juno. And that's been one of the greatest things about making these presets for Matthew's apps is I get to like go up the learning curve with that. And whenever I receive an email from him with like a new beta he's working on, it's kind of like Christmas morning.

like this is awesome and the best part is if I find bugs I don't have to fix them

Brian Funk (01:21:47.627)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:21:53.568)

Yeah, that's cool. It's a great way to learn about that stuff. And also sometimes not knowing, you know, like maybe if you knew what you were getting into, you might've been like, that's too much or you might not have gone that way or you might've gone the completely traditional way and done something that's been done a million times before. you get

the kind of advantage of not knowing in a way instead of it being a disadvantage.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:22:25.612)

Right, and I feel like the new unknown thing is gonna be diving into this sound pack creation world. Because I've done it some, right? But I haven't, certainly haven't done 250 plus packs. So, that's gonna be really fun. Even whenever I did the Jamuary, one of my favorite ones was I had a pine cone and I just flicked one of the quills on it. Is that what they're called? Anyways, just made like a

Brian Funk (01:22:41.505)

Huh.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:22:55.38)

sound but it had like a slight pitch to it and then you just start pitch shifting it and you can play an actual song with it. It's amazing. I want to go into Walmart. I want to record all the toys in Walmart. I want to use the EBO thing I was showing you. I want to do like all these things. So it's like it's a whole new thing of like I think it's good to not get too carried away and just jump into the next thing, right?

Brian Funk (01:23:02.815)

Wow, that's cool.

Brian Funk (01:23:09.503)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:23:23.958)

But at the same time, I'm pretty excited to just explore and do more playing with sound because that's what I've been doing all along anyways. if music comes from it, that's fine, but I'm making music in the moment, you know, whenever you're making a sample pack, you're playing through it, you know, in that moment, you're not, you might not be sharing that eventually you, you'll share like a demo video of it or something, but whenever you're creating the instruments and you're finding the loop points,

Brian Funk (01:23:43.67)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:23:53.993)

It can be monotonous, it's also like, that's part of the joy, right? It's like you're an explorer sifting through all these different sounds and you're finding things that are just totally surprising to you. And if the things that you're capturing sounds from have a story in and of themselves, then it just adds layer of depth on top of layer of depth and it's just like, it's really cool.

Brian Funk (01:24:19.593)

Yeah, I agree. And that sounds like a fun adventure for you. There's so many factors, like I'm thinking of you being in Walmart, sampling things, you're going to have background noise, right? You're going to have people shopping. You might get a cash register beep in there somewhere or somebody laughing or coughing. And sometimes that's an awesome touch. It becomes this life behind the sound that

adds character and personality and you've captured a moment that you're now playing around with and making music with. So even just the room you're in, the reverb of the room, the natural kind of sound, all of that stuff, it gets involved in your sounds. you know, there's even your microphone, like you might have your nice field recorder one day and then another day you might have

just your phone or you might have something else and everything matters. And it's not even like it's better to be in that sterile environment with some fancy Neumann mic because sometimes there's just nothing to it anymore. Half the reason you're sampling things is because it's going to be this unique thing and this experience. So I'm often like, don't care what's happening in the background.

you know, whatever mic I have or sometimes let's find a really cheap mic to record this.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:25:54.347)

Yeah, yeah, and I've got, that's the one thing is I'm not, I'm good at creating sounds once they're in the box, but we'll have to see about capturing sounds. I do have some good mics. I mean, I've got the Rode NT1A. I think everyone has that mic. It's a good mic. And then I got the Joe Rogan mic. And this little guy, it served pretty well. The good thing about this is you can be incognito with it, right?

Brian Funk (01:25:57.195)

Okay.

Brian Funk (01:26:23.86)

Yeah, your phone too. No one.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:26:24.012)

I'm probably gonna go. Oh, yeah the phone I'd You know we talking about YouTube. I watched this guy record I don't know what the the professional mic is like a Neumann or something He's using that but then he was also recording just the built-in mic from his phone and Whatever post-processing he did with it. They sounded almost identical, you know, so it's like

Brian Funk (01:26:42.826)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:26:48.692)

I think I know what you're talking about. He does like kind of pop punk. That guy, right? With the glasses. I like that guy. I forget what his channel is called right now. But I saw that video. Yeah, and it sounded really good. Like I could barely tell. I could tell they were different, but I wasn't even say one was better than the other. It's just.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:26:53.014)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:27:10.036)

Yeah, if we're talking about the same guy, he I mean he I watched like another video and he was talking about side chaining compression like for making synthwave stuff I don't know man. Anytime I learn like a little piece of knowledge like that that isn't something you just come about from your own experimenting. It still just feels like Like it's Willy Wonka and you're finding the golden chocolate bar, you know, I kind of I love that stuff

Brian Funk (01:27:36.2)

Yeah, right.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:27:39.853)

So that's been cool. I still have stayed sort of motivated with it and kept positive with it. Even though I was kind of like, you got to push things out of your mind sometimes because sometimes I would look at my friends that were releasing apps and I'm still just kind of stuck here working on it. And you do tend to feel a little bit of jealousy. You're like, I wish I kind of, it's like good for you, but kind of here I am.

I think you got to sort of push those, push through those things. Like, cause it's not that that isn't a true feeling and you shouldn't listen to it, but it's not serving you at least not in the way you want to, you know? So part of it is if you can look at this community and the people around you that are releasing stuff and you can truly feel like their wins are your wins, then it just,

It feels like it's all ships rising and I do think that's probably more consistent with reality than whatever this formulation of reality is in your head, right? Like no one is looking at your work and thinking, this is good, but it's not as good as his, you know? You're the only one comparing yourself to other people, you know?

Brian Funk (01:28:50.579)

I think so, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:28:57.6)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:29:01.76)

I think so. And it is building a community and interest.

It, I don't think it's, it's not a zero sum game. It's not this, winners and losers type things. everybody can benefit from that kind of stuff. And I, the stance I like to try to give myself is if someone else does it, it's like, Ooh, it's possible. You know, wow. can do it when people finish songs even sometimes.

I'm just like, God, thank you. Like it's not impossible. Cause sometimes it feels that way when you're making music. Like, I just can't figure it out. I can't do it. And it's not possible. And then you see someone do it and you're like, okay, all right. So celebrate their wins as just evidence that a fellow human can do it. So can you.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:29:54.764)

Yeah. man, see that's such an empowering perspective to think that, you know, and it's a choice, right? But I think, I think you make, you make that choice like enough times and then that becomes your de facto response that you're like, you are happy for, you see someone makes a banger YouTube video and you're like, yes, I'm happy for them. man, that one's popping off instead of being like, I wish my video was popping off, you know?

Brian Funk (01:30:02.876)

This is choice. A lot of it is choices.

Brian Funk (01:30:23.669)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:30:24.245)

Like that stuff, it's just not going to serve you, not in the short term, not in the long term. And it's also, it's, it ignores the fact that a lot of this is just chance and repetition, you know? you know, one thing, all right. So we're, we've been going for a little while. I want to, I want to walk away with stuff. So I'm turning the microphone back onto you. I want to, I'm, I'm a tactics guy. So we talked a little bit about like how you,

Brian Funk (01:30:36.564)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:30:47.072)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:30:53.885)

like you manage your time and stuff, what does that actually look like? Like when you get home from adult job, Mr. Funk, when Mr. Funk gets home, what does it look like? How do you, fill in the blank, how do you?

Brian Funk (01:31:11.358)

Well, you know, I got my dog, I take care of her. I try to do something every day. And something. It's not always a lot. Sometimes I have more time than others. Having the restraint of I have to spend a good portion of my day at work is actually pretty helpful because I'm...

Like, okay, I only have a few hours, you know, it's going to be dinner soon. There's going to be bedtime coming up. so let's try to make the most of it. And sometimes it's also, you know, coordinating it with my wife, what's going on with her? What are we doing together? So it, those limitations help a lot. Cause it says to me, I have to do it now. It has to happen now. If I'm going to do something I try to keep, you know, my, I've like lists of to-do lists.

things and stuff like that, that I want to work on. And some of it's different projects. Some of it's, you know, just the next step in a project, but it's not really much more organized than that. Like I want to move forward today. Like I do think of it almost like it's almost like exercise. Like, you don't just stay as fit as you are right now. And then you work out in a month and you're more fit or

You know, you're either going one way or the other. So I try to make sure at least I take a step, at least a step. And I can feel good about that. And it's not so much like I have to do two hours, I have to do 20 of this or finish this song necessarily, but at least progress it. And just sort of trust in the long game of it that if I do that consistently, stuff happens, things get done.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:33:06.093)

So you say the long game, but it feels like you're playing four games at one time, right? Because you're Sound Pack Brian, you're Podcast Brian, you're creating music Brian, you're creating your next YouTube video on whatever, and then somehow writing a book. Just like all these things, it you move forward with each thing a little bit each day? Or is it like, I'm going to finish this to completion, then I'm

Brian Funk (01:33:06.207)

I

Brian Funk (01:33:12.563)

Sometimes, I mean...

Brian Funk (01:33:29.841)

No, it's more something.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:33:33.909)

then I can turn my attention to the next thing.

Brian Funk (01:33:36.71)

It's more something. So like I tried to do a podcast every two weeks. So I know that, okay, got kind of the plan, you know, of what needs to get done, what I need to get ready. And then if I'm to make some clips or something, I know I got to do a couple of those, schedule those out and band practice usually falls on a certain day every week. So that's sort of decided for me, right? Then

doing packs or doing like our live meetings with the music production club happens. It's scheduled, right? So this meeting is scheduled. So that was easy. Today was easy. I know I'm going to talk to you at this time. When it's not on the schedule, I prefer to the to-do list and say, okay, well, I want to, working on these songs. I want to get that going. I want to finish this. I got to send emails today. Sometimes it's stuff like that even.

But yeah, the sum of it, having something like the podcast that I try to do regularly and the music production club is like a regular thing, that helps structure those decisions a bit. Having the band practice a weekly thing that puts it into a structure for me a bit. And then the other days are more where I can do whatever I want, kind of pick from whatever needs to be done.

Brian Funk (01:35:08.689)

It's not really anything well crafted other than just something every day. know, and to have, guess, those little things that are regularly occurring events, like the podcast, music production club, you know, that helps add the structure. So that was kind of a smart move on my part.

Um, in the beginning, even when I started doing packs, I wanted to do one every week. So that's, I knew I had to do one every week. So I have to work on it. That became a lot to do. So after like a year or so of that, I slowed it down a little bit, but, um, it's having like a club or this usually, it's usually kind of like a monthly cycle. Um, you know, that stuff.

is helpful because it reminds you it's built in deadlines.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:36:06.923)

How do you feel about...

Okay, so I get the paying for sound packs in the music production club. but, but what about paywalling the community? Does that stifle growth at all? Or is that even a factor? you, do you think about it? Or is it one of those things where people are paying to be a part of the community and to get the sounds and therefore, how do you think of that?

Yeah, sorry, I just realized I'm not asking full questions, but that's my M.O.

Brian Funk (01:36:42.803)

Well, think it's all like a

No, I've thought about this a lot and I do think about it and consider it. It's kind of like a whole package thing you're buying into if you join the music production club, right? We're going to have meetings twice a month. There's our Discord community. There's packs that come with it. And really anything that I create will go to the club. even if it's when I did the book, it comes with the club. That's just part of it. So.

Um, opening the community has been a thought like, like maybe the discord, you know, but it's also kind of a special thing too. Um, it's at a point where I can go in there and actually listen to the music people post and people share. And when we do January, I'm giving everything pretty much a listen, you know, as best I can.

And then I'm adding it to our playlist so that we're all collected and together on SoundCloud and just because SoundCloud makes it easy to do a playlist. If it was open, maybe there would be more people and maybe I would get more people to subscribe and pay ultimately. But then it's like I'm not able to be in the community anymore, right? Like because there's a limit to that. And then when we have our meetings, if there's

When we anywhere five to 10 people come, you know, sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more. but it's very personalized, you know, if it was 30 people, that changes it a lot. It's like a classroom too. Like when I teach, when I have these small classes, it's nice. You really get to know everybody. When it's a large class, it's instead of these individuals. Now it's a crowd, right? It's one crowd instead of.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:38:39.339)

Yeah, when I've certainly seen some discords where it's like, it becomes the moderator's discord. It's not really the person who created it anymore. And that thing, for better or for worse, can take on a life of itself, you know? And so it doesn't, which doesn't necessarily stay true to, you know, you want to be involved with these people. I think that...

Brian Funk (01:38:49.053)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:39:01.695)

I've never had an issue either with like there's someone that's a problem. You know, like someone's mean or cruel or inconsiderate or if you open it to everybody, you know, then you're going to have people that just are going in there saying what they want to say and leaving. They're not really part of it. It could be

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:39:07.21)

Right.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:39:24.205)

Well, you know, they have that thing where they have the thing where they say if you spend even a dollar, then you're going to be more interested in it. You know, you've got skin in the game, whereas like you could be giving away the same thing for free and at the same time bring more people in, but it devalues the experience for everyone at the same time, you know. But if I've paid money and I'm a part of it, then I want to get my money's worth, you know, so I'm going to.

Brian Funk (01:39:34.173)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:39:47.004)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:39:52.874)

Interact and be a part of that community and that's the cool thing about sort of this new creator space We're in is people get to create their own rules if you just want to have a patreon where you're doing Streams to those just that crew you can do that or if you want, you know it yeah, we get to make our own rules and It's kind of whenever the only thing you're relying on is social media. Then you're just playing by the algorithms rule

you know, and you don't really have as much control over it. so yeah, I was kind of just curious about it. I wasn't, I don't really think that it needs to be free or paid. I was just curious in the sort of the choice with it because like I have a discord, it's free and I'm the only person that posts in it. so it's one of those things where like, I have people post on YouTube videos and stuff, but like creating a community on those various spaces.

It's really difficult. Like I'll post something on the AUV3 Facebook group and it'll get a lot of attention because people are there for it. Then you post the same thing on threads or blue sky and it's, you just wonder why did I even do this? Why did I waste the time doing that, you know? I think it's out of habit. Fortunately, it doesn't take a lot of time. But I think with you saying like the time you spend with stuff and how you schedule things.

I think it's one of those things where it doesn't feel like it's magic to you because you're the person doing it. Just like how Eddie Van Halen probably just thought he's just playing guitar. This is just how I play guitar, right? So because some of that stuff, it's just not, we're all different when we all have different things that pull us a certain way. I have tunnel vision. I will like not eat.

I will just be focused on a task until I can move it to a certain space where I'm happy. And usually if the perfectionist part of me is talking, it's not going to be happy no matter how much work I put in. like maybe my daughter is at a, a run club or something at the end of school. Well, that means I get a few extra hours of working. So I'm just going to like kind of push on and on. And, uh, what I've always wanted to be able to do is to

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:42:14.153)

jump between different things to do a YouTube video for a while to then work on app development or whatever else. And I have done a decent job of that, but it, to me, it feels like you're trying to keep a bunch of balls in the air and something's getting neglected. One of the balls is over in the corner and it has cobwebs on it and you forgot it existed and you turn over and look at it you're like, man, I hate that. Unfortunately, that, that one is usually something like my wife saying, go out and trim the bushes.

Brian Funk (01:42:31.71)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:42:44.533)

And then it's like, sorry. It's avant-garde, you know? But yeah, so where do you think you kind of, I guess you've done it enough. That's what sort of reinforced the behavior. But did you, who helped you formulate that originally? Did you go with like the getting things done route?

Brian Funk (01:42:51.452)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:43:09.39)

I love that book actually, getting things done in the whole format. That's my to-do list is set up in that format actually. It's like, yeah, your in tray or kind of ideas. then it's like next actions projects someday maybe. Right. I have that in my list and I have like in, my like projects, it's like music production podcast. And it's like, okay, I got

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:43:29.483)

Yeah, exactly.

Brian Funk (01:43:39.325)

these things that I'm trying to work on or packs, you know, and someday maybe I've got Ableton Live pack ideas. I've got ideas for the music production club, but then next action is like, send this email about, the update to the club or release that video. You know, the, the next action thing is there's a verb, you know, write the blog post for your new pack.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:44:03.692)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:44:07.597)

Mmm.

Brian Funk (01:44:07.838)

So it's a very specific thing. I find that very helpful. That was a real big eye-opener for me, that book, actually. It just helped me categorize all the stuff in my head, all the ideas, and take it from just long to-do lists and ideal lists to, like, this is the thing I'm working on here, this is the thing I'm working on here.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:44:30.379)

Yeah. He's like, you don't do a project. You do an action or a task, whatever it was. I think that his writing style, Paul Allen is that the name? David Allen, he's, he just is directive based. So he's just telling you what to do. Sometimes you want someone to tell you just what to do, because sometimes you want to be the manager. Sometimes you want to be the worker bee, right? And if you've already made that decision and you've, like you said, you're having a verb.

Brian Funk (01:44:36.371)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:44:40.978)

David Allen, yeah. Allen.

Brian Funk (01:44:47.228)

Yeah, it's very business. Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:45:00.435)

of single action item. It's kind of like you can look at that and do it. What do you do? Okay, so another book is that talks about the resistance. What's that Malcolm Gladwell? What do you do when you feel the resistance whenever you've... press filled, sorry.

Brian Funk (01:45:13.202)

That's Stephen Pressfield. That's War of Art. Malcolm Gladwell's good too. But Stephen Pressfield, yeah, the War of Art. Resistance.

The force that is actively trying to prevent you from doing your creative work is pretty much how he defines that. And I love that concept that he identifies it, names it, calls it out so you can say that's what it is. That is, it's just like he says, it's every single day, every single minute you're facing the resistance.

It gets me all the time. I do all my dishes before I make any music. I clean things. I get all the chores away. Chores are easy, right? You know you're going to finish the dishes. You can do that. Like, I don't know if I'm going to make a good song or a good sound or a good podcast or anything creative. Like that's the question mark. but I guess I try to identify, try not to think about it too hard.

You know, don't question things, just try to go. That kind of having like lists helps me with that, pick something and go. But I guess I also kind of accept it as part of the process. And one of the great things about doing this podcast is everybody deals with this stuff. And not that I want to wish my suffering on anybody, but...

every single person I talk to struggles with all this stuff. People that have it down, that have won awards, and you know, every marker of success you can think of still struggle with everything. And when that comes up, that's sort of like, that's what makes it glorious when you get through. Right? Like...

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:47:14.285)

Yeah, I think for the people who do have it all quote-unquote figured out A lot of times the things they're saying are aspirational. It's not necessarily what they're doing You know, it's that rules for thee not for me So Yeah, man that's it's interesting that so many people because I a lot of times whenever I'll listen to some of the podcast things everyone does have such a defined

Brian Funk (01:47:18.301)

But

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:47:44.13)

perspective, I guess you always kind of feel like everyone's got it figured out and you're still figuring it out, right? Just like I said, whenever you were, it looked like everything you had done was with a rhyme and a reason for getting the sound packs and like every piece of this puzzle just fits together so nicely, right? But I guess there's had to been times where you've just had like

an entire week or longer where you just can't put the proverbial pen to the paper. Do you feel like you've encountered some of those burnout or have you recognized it enough to where you can veer off early enough?

Brian Funk (01:48:20.114)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:48:29.753)

It might be helpful to have a few different things to turn to, to avoid the burnout, right? Like a couple, if I'm tired of doing the podcast, I can do something else, right? It's not the only thing. If I don't feel like writing a song, can, whatever, right? It's, but yeah, like for me, I guess that comes in the form of like, I feel like,

it's pointless, you know, like the world is full of issues and problems and here you are tinkering with sounds that you made with like the spoons you found in the closet, you know, like what are you doing you idiot? Like those thoughts, you know, and then it all always like comes, if I follow that it'll start to become

everyone's going to find out you're a fraud. You know, they're to realize you're just some idiot. And then they'll find out at work, you're a bad teacher. You'll be on the news getting fired. And, you play out these like worst case scenarios. um, but it's just all thinking. It's just thoughts. You got to like turn that movie off in your head and put a different movie on.

Brian Funk (01:49:53.295)

Notice it, guess, is noticing it is the key. When you're getting there, just realize like, I'm being stupid. Like, that's not real. That's just a story that's going on in my head.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:50:05.761)

Hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:50:07.545)

It's not easy to do though. I you get into those feelings and it, but a lot of times for me, it's the music that pulls me out of it too. You know, like I'll listen to music then in that case, and then I'll feel good about it and realize like, this is important.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:50:18.647)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:50:26.325)

Yeah, I tend to like having little projects. I'm moving back into the little project thing because I think you get a little charge with each thing that you get finished and you can actually finish something to completion. Whereas whenever it's sort of like a slog and you just keep working on the thing, then yeah, there can be some dark times that you sort of go with it. I also think, you know, it's not going to be uniform for everyone, but as you get older,

just stuff from your childhood starts coming back, different things. You're like, I'm ready to work right now. Why am I thinking about this trauma? Okay, now I'm just gonna focus on work. And then it's like, you can't. It's like, you can't focus on the work that needs to get done because there's some other part of you that's like, yeah, you need to handle this other thing first. That doesn't always happen, but I feel like as I've gotten older, that'll sometimes happen.

I think it's also a byproduct of, what did you say? You said something about getting your feelings. I like that saying. Like sometimes you're your feelings, you, you get, you, it's a part of your body. There's something physically changing in your body when you're feeling something and you really have to like shake it up. think having, trying on different perspectives, again, getting out from behind your computer, going into the touching grass.

Things like that can be really powerful to sort of change your perspective. But for you, it really sounds like your routine is sort of like the guiding factor amongst other things. I've seen that with myself sometimes that if I have, back to Matthew, he says he'll set a launch date for an app before the app is done. Because if he doesn't have a deadline,

Brian Funk (01:51:54.727)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:52:21.717)

He'll just keep working on it forever. And yeah, I can attest to that. So for you, when is your quitting time? When are you like, it's non-negotiable, I'm not working past nine or 10 or 2 a.m. or whatever it is.

Brian Funk (01:52:42.252)

I mean, I kind of got to get to bed for work, right? I got to get up pretty early in the morning for that. So I have that little thing on your phone that tells you it's like bedtime. I forget what they call it, but you know, it's just like makes a little chime. That happens at 9 45. That's like, all right, time to start getting ready. I mean, it depends on the day. You know, if I'm really rolling, like sometimes you just got to go with it.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:52:47.289)

yeah.

Brian Funk (01:53:10.31)

You know, but it is, it's nice to turn it off, you know, to say like, okay, I'm done for the day. did something. Cause otherwise you find yourself deciding to relax, maybe like watching TV or something. And you're not, you're feeling guilty because you're not doing the work. And now you're really doing nothing. Cause you're not even relaxing. You're not even doing the work. You're just, you know, brooding in this like.

hatred of yourself and your lack of predictivity. So it's nice to just to say like, I'm okay, I'm going to stop now and tomorrow we'll pick it up again. And now I'm relaxing without the guilt of it.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:53:57.101)

So where, for you, where's, sorry man, I totally turned it on you, but I said I was gonna turn it on you, sorry, not sorry. What's the reward for you? Is the reward in I have completed a task and shipped something, or is the reward in the work itself?

Brian Funk (01:54:03.15)

Yeah, it's interesting to think about actually.

Brian Funk (01:54:20.664)

I try to get the reward out of the work itself. And a lot of times I do because when you get into it, it's one of those things where you kind of forget about everything and you forget about your problems, what was bothering you, whatever you're going through. And then when you come out of it, you sort of snap out of the world of making music. And then you see things from a different angle. There's a couple of things I like to do like that, you know, that you forget about.

you know, exercise does that for me a bit, where then you come out of that, you're tired, and you're like, yeah, was mad before. Then you're like, that was kind of silly. Like, what was I mad about? You know, you see it differently or, yeah, that's, I guess.

Brian Funk (01:55:10.853)

I don't know. I kind of forget what I started saying here all of a

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:55:14.635)

Yeah, I think we'll like the reward being in the process trying to do that

Brian Funk (01:55:18.514)

the reward. Yeah. Yeah. But I love riding to work the next day and playing what I did in the car, hearing it, you know, you know, I'd love that. I love, I got all that stuff on my phone and I listened to my phone on shuffle a lot, Apple music shuffle. And every once in a while it's like something I did. And sometimes it's something I want to hear and sometimes I just skip it. But, yeah, I enjoy that. I like listening to the music I made.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:55:25.052)

yeah.

Brian Funk (01:55:48.806)

going back into it.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:55:50.071)

Are you protective of your time when you're creating to not watch YouTube, not click on the latest What's Happening in an Iran article or whatever else?

Brian Funk (01:56:04.294)

Well, I try to be a little bit, yeah, YouTube is a dangerous one because you can justify that as being productive because I'm learning, I'm figuring out how to use this thing or I'm deciding if I should buy this or that. So it's tricky. But I tried, I don't, I try to stay out of the news a lot and the social media as much as possible. I have a timer on the phone for that. I only get like an hour.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:56:11.746)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:56:33.284)

I think 45 minutes actually of any sort of social media or news.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:56:38.998)

And then what happens? Your phone explodes?

Brian Funk (01:56:41.238)

It tells me you've hit your limit, and I can ignore it if I want, but usually that's enough to shame me into putting it down.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:56:49.876)

Hmm. I really like this man. It sounds like you have some guardrails in place that really protect against the monkey mind, right? So that you can, it helps keep you focused. It helps keep you on task. Because ultimately that's where the reward is, is in doing the work, right? As opposed to just being endlessly dis-

Brian Funk (01:57:15.674)

Well, it's almost like, it's like accepting the monkey mind, maybe. You you you can't fight it. Like in my mind really does feel like there's a bunch of monkeys pulling levers and buttons all the time. I think everyone's does. that doesn't mean you have to be whatever button gets pressed. You know, like meditation helps with that, you know, like paying attention to how your mind drifts.

Like the whole type that I do is where you're just maybe breathing or whatever and you just notice that like, now I'm thinking about like squirrels in the winter. And now I'm like having this like fantasy of what I would do if I ever got told I was messing up at work. like, you you find yourself in these weird stories and then you're like, that was just, that was nothing.

Nevermind, back to the breath. And every time you remember that you've drifted or you notice that you drifted, it's like, that's the win. It's not to clear the mind, it's to notice that your mind likes to go off on its own little world all the time.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:58:16.888)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:58:33.622)

Yeah, I did the the Headspace app for a while and I really enjoyed it at the time but a lot of these habits just don't stick or enough time passes that you're not doing the thing.

Brian Funk (01:58:38.94)

.

Brian Funk (01:58:46.414)

Yeah, it's a practice, know, it's not a destination, I guess, just like everything. You have to pay attention to it.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:58:54.264)

Yeah.

Well, I come from a long line of over workers and if you're not overworking and whipping yourself while you're doing it, then you're going to feel bad. So you keep the bad away by working through it, which obviously as I'm saying it, I realize that's a bad perspective to have, but those things are really hard to break and it becomes like your default thinking. And whenever you're working, you're not spending enough time to actually stop

Brian Funk (01:59:01.34)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (01:59:25.23)

and listen to those voice. You're not observing your own thoughts. Instead, you're just making the decision, but it feels like you're on autopilot. So I guess it's...

I don't know what I, I think it's just sort of different ways of looking at it. Like one, one way is I want to try and set up a system where I can work and it can be effortless and I have a schedule and things like that. And at the same time, I need to step away from work and I need to like really just think, do some soul searching and see like, are you doing what you're doing? Because whenever you're, you're stuck working,

The last person you're thinking about is yourself, you know, you're thinking about your dog. You got to take your dog out the dogs barking Okay, you gotta bring the dog in here thinking about your family and their needs, you know, and it's just so easy for me to like not go on a bike ride today because I Instead I can get more work done if I don't take that hour out of my day, you know And so I think it's just a balancing act

It's, it's constantly is, but a big piece of it is just managing your own expectations and realizing that if I don't get everything done, that's okay. You know, it's good enough as things are now. And if someone is, is put out by that, that's okay too, because you don't realize it, but you're pitting yourself out more. And then eventually you will be of service to no one. Right. Cause you're going to be totally worthless.

Brian Funk (02:01:08.997)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:01:11.566)

useless to yourself and others. it's a...

Brian Funk (02:01:11.611)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:01:17.88)

Do you still do meditation? Is that a routine thing?

Brian Funk (02:01:21.891)

I try to, I got an app I use.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:01:26.798)

Spotify? No.

Brian Funk (02:01:28.443)

No, Sam Harris is that waking up. Um, yeah, I like, he doesn't say a lot in it. He just kind of tells you, I'm take some breaths. And then he goes away and then he pops back in and he's like, and just think about it. And then you realize you're thinking about something totally different. His voice kind of just pops in to remind you that you're meditating, you know? And, um, uh,

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:01:32.396)

Hell yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:01:48.705)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:01:55.244)

I think it's different for different people, but what I found with the meditating is that then just like if I was feeling stressed later on, I could just focus on my breathing for a second and like instantly it's like it flips a switch and kind of puts you back in the relaxed state.

Brian Funk (02:01:57.947)

you

Brian Funk (02:02:09.509)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that, I try to get some kind of exercise every day, something, you know, I don't ever, I don't usually go too wild, but, um, just something, you know, even just a little bit. And most of it's just like body weight stuff or a quick jog or, but, that helps a lot. I think, you know, just kind of knowing that.

Trying to take care of myself helps.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:02:44.213)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:02:48.96)

Is that a early morning thing or is that an after work thing?

Brian Funk (02:02:52.557)

It's usually after work. I would love it to be in the morning, but it's just too early. So some time after work and sometimes I'm like rushing to do it real quick before dinner. Sometimes I have a little more time and sometimes it's like I space it out in my music making. Like I'll do a little music and then I'll do like pushups and you know, whatever, just back and forth. I find that

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:03:06.733)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:03:17.302)

Yeah.

Do a few pushups, do some arpeggios, and just switch it back and forth between them.

Brian Funk (02:03:25.307)

It's funny, but it does help. Especially if you're at the computer making music, you're sitting, you know, and you're trying to make exciting music. Like, here you are, hunched over the keyboard. So getting the blood flowing helps me be there for it and actually feel like the stuff I'm making.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:03:38.814)

yeah. yeah.

Yes.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:03:48.751)

Yeah, around my neighborhood, there are these mountain biking trails that I can just go out of my garage and then just be on the trails. It's amazing when I do it. But then there's, there's usually whenever I do it, I have to get home, take a shower, then I have about an hour before my daughter gets home. um, my day basically is like three 30. I'm kind of done for the day because then my daughter's home and it's like, it's just playtime.

Yeah, so I have a lot of hours in the day to get stuff done and if I Know I'm going on a bike ride if I got up earlier than I could get more work done But I I don't know I don't think the answer is getting more work done. I think we feel like that is the answer Derek Sivers has

Brian Funk (02:04:18.446)

Yeah, that's cool.

Brian Funk (02:04:37.572)

Hmm. Yeah, we want to go on these marathon things all the time. Like I need to do like all this time, but we kind of underestimate how much the little drops add up in the bucket.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:04:50.582)

Yeah, I think you can also though spread yourself too thin if you're thinking of I need to do YouTube video then I need to do this like I have a list of a few YouTube videos that I've told people I was gonna make for their stuff and It just kind of piles up and it weighs on me if I ever do sponsored videos That becomes a huge stressor this one. I did this with PCB way

Brian Funk (02:04:55.61)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:05:19.374)

And this is sponsored by PCBWay. And anyways, they made me a little PCB with it, so that was cool. But I knew I had to make a video for them. like, it sort of took some of the fun out of it. Well, it's not that took the fun out of it just like raised the pressure. And not only that, I needed to figure out how to fabricate PCBs. So, it's cool, now it's done.

Brian Funk (02:05:27.898)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (02:05:41.786)

Okay.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:05:44.878)

But I 3D printed the enclosure, I got these little buttons, I programmed it, I soldered it, designed it, and I'm glad I went through it, but it certainly was a lot of work for a small YouTube video where basically all I got were the free PCBs out of it, right?

Brian Funk (02:06:03.322)

Hmm. Yeah. I've had the situation where do sponsored stuff or, know, can leverage your followers or whatever. those things always weigh on me in such a different way. mean, it's awesome. They sent me this thing. They're going to pay me too. It's like an honor, you know? And I, but it's like, now I got to do it.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:06:20.952)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (02:06:34.52)

That's when it's work. Now I've turned my music into work. There's just certain things, I guess, that I've kind of realized, like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that thing or this thing. There's other things I still enjoy and I want to do. So having that understanding of, like, I'm just not going to do that. Like, a sponsored video I just don't want to do.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:06:37.196)

Right.

Brian Funk (02:07:03.214)

can do if it's something I believe in, could do some kind of promotion podcast thing or some kind of team up. Maybe it can be something like, that I can give to members of my music production club. Maybe that's an angle we can do so that it's works together with what I want to do. But yeah, I used to write like reviews. used to do like descriptions of products and things.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:07:22.776)

Right.

Brian Funk (02:07:30.008)

And it was cool because yeah, like you got the thing and you got the money and, but that's not, I don't want to do that. That's, that's a different type of work.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:07:41.429)

Right. In this, in the mobile music space, usually people will just offer you promo codes and then whoever you're sending this stuff to will or will not make a video. You really don't know until after you've launched it. But paying for reviews and stuff like that really doesn't happen too much. I don't think until you get over a hundred thousand subscribers or something, right? Because, and then there's

And then those people can ask a handsome sum for their videos if they're making them. Like on my last app I was doing, I contacted a YouTuber that had, it was like a big synth YouTuber that has like 800,000 subscribers. And they were like, yeah, I can make a video. It'll be $3,500. It was like what they quoted me. And I was grateful that they told me a price.

And it probably is worth that if you have the right conversion rate and if you're into analytics, I do neither of those two things. So it was kind of like, well, that's, it's a cool data point, but I appreciate it. But yeah, I can't do that. But yeah, what I've found is most useful if you are a creator or a musician is you kind of got to create your own platform. You know, you got to like,

Brian Funk (02:08:53.316)

Hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:09:07.346)

You need to have your own audience that you're growing on YouTube. And how do you do that? You do it by not shining a light on just yourself, but you shine a light on other people in the community. You know, then it's like, it's not really about reviewing someone else's app. It's more like, Hey, here's this cool free app that came out. Let me just show you what it can do. And then you, you go from there and people are appreciative. Sometimes my favorite comments to read are whenever someone just says, thank you.

Brian Funk (02:09:27.012)

Yeah.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:09:36.428)

And there's nothing else. They don't even have a profile picture or anything else. You don't know where that person is in their life, but they cared enough to just even say thank you, you know, which is nice compared to the other end of the spectrum where like someone's like, you know, they're going to dog you for any random thing, which is fine. But, I guess it's again, it's, it's where you choose to put your focus, you know? And I like to think of the person who gets value from something and

Brian Funk (02:09:46.03)

Right. Yeah, that's cool.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:10:05.73)

They don't have a platform of their own or maybe they aspire to do something or maybe they they're just grateful that you spent your time to Shine a light on something for them You know Unfortunately, a lot of these creators who are just like we're not monetized well on through YouTube and through ads and things like that So a lot of people who don't have other income streams they just really can't make it on YouTube they have to do

Brian Funk (02:10:16.548)

you

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:10:33.698)

Patreon or anything else fortunately for me. I've had some success with my apps So that's that's what's kept the ship afloat And so I haven't had to worry about YouTube being the main thing or this new free app I've made if it doesn't make money. I mean it kind of sucks. I haven't looked at what it's earned and It doesn't really make too big a difference to the bottom line. I realize that's from a privileged position

But it's also a privileged position that I work to get to, you know? I've put the hours in on my butt cheeks sitting in this chair.

Brian Funk (02:11:05.081)

Yeah.

well yeah that's

Brian Funk (02:11:11.832)

And part of that is probably why. If you were to take that turn and just try to earn your affiliate commissions and all that stuff on your channel, now it's not your channel anymore.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:11:24.14)

Yeah. No, yeah, I think that's why this, the PCBWay thing just felt so kind of wrong to me. Not that the company's fine. The product they have is fine. It's me, like, who has a problem with, like, feeling like I'm shilling something, you know? Like, if I can present something to someone in a neutral way, then they get to make a decision, I'm fine with that. But if I have skin in the game or someone has...

Brian Funk (02:11:35.449)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:11:52.579)

purchase me to say something, it just feels so inauthentic that I, what's the point of me doing it? Then it is just like advertising, you know? And we're just advertised to so much with everything, like so much so that you'll see stuff on social media and you don't even know what it's advertising. Maybe they're just trying to grow a following so that they can then sell the account or yeah, I don't know, that's just speculation, but

Whatever it is, the algorithm doesn't really care how much money the creator's making. They just care about you staying on the site. And they're going to feed towards whatever impulse you have that, unfortunately for me, I've clicked on the YouTube drama video, so it keeps on serving it to me. So now I know everything there is to know about these people I will never meet in my entire life.

Brian Funk (02:12:48.345)

Yeah. I mean, I don't want to give the wrong impression about any of that. mean, there's a lot of people, I really enjoy their work. They're reviewing products, they're talking about features and they might have a sponsored video and they're informing me and the way they do it is it doesn't feel like anything like I'm being just a product that's a commercial I'm watching or something. And

I think all the more power to them and I'll often, if I'm into what they're doing, I'll click on their link specifically to support them if I'm gonna buy something. So there's definitely a lot of cool ways to do it.

I, yeah, just, you know, that's, it's cool that people can do that even. Like you can be like an enthusiast and be sharing what you learned and make some money doing that and informing people in a way that feels like value and not just sales pitch.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:13:52.002)

Yeah, I think it takes a certain business savviness to be able to do it. And I think part of it is if I really don't think of what I do on YouTube as a business, right? I don't think I'm just diluting myself with that thought. It's really like, and maybe it's easy to come to that conclusion because it does earn such a small amount, right?

But what you get from it is you get community, you know, it's great that on a video in the comments, you see some of the same people and some of these people you talk to outside of it. Some of them you see on different platforms and some of these people you actually get to know in real life, you know, and you don't know what opportunities it's going to lead to, you know, so I really can't bag it for that stuff. And I agree. I don't have any problem with people doing it. It's more about having the self-awareness to see does this thing work for you because

Brian Funk (02:14:17.635)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (02:14:21.049)

Mm-hmm.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:14:46.71)

Something can be the best plan in the world, but if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work, period. The best plan is for you to be on all the social media sites and engage with everybody and be posting every hour. You need to post 13 tweets a day, okay? Then you need to have shorts. Make sure you do the shorts, but you can save time by posting that same short over on Instagram. But since you've done that, and it just goes on and on.

If you do that and you feel like I just don't even want to make the art anymore, then just stop. You know, maybe you won't be as successful as you could be with that stuff. but maybe that works for someone else and it wouldn't work for you because it doesn't work with your personality type. That's a big thing I found with like, social media because social media could easily be a full-time job for all of us. Right.

For me, a lot of times it's an afterthought. It's like, I did the thing, I made the thing, I gotta go tell some people about the thing right now. How do I post again? Okay. Instagram doesn't do horizontal pictures, so I need to do something else. It's sort of like the last box you tick before you're like, okay, now I can breathe, what's sort of next on the pipeline?

Brian Funk (02:16:02.413)

you

Hmm.

Brian Funk (02:16:10.701)

Hmm. Yeah. There's like so much you can get involved with, but it's gotta be enjoying yourself ultimately, I think. Cause you can take the thing you love, like making music and take all of the love out of it. If you're not careful.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:16:29.708)

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I think I'll, I'll close on this. think I've mentioned it before, but a lot of this stuff we feel like we need to make money from. think if someone feels like they're making a piece of software and, selling it to people or giving it to them, they need to have a way to monetize it and make money. And, there are just so many other ways to live a fulfilling life. There's so many other ways to create something.

and to get rewards from it. But you kind of have to examine it and be counter-cultural to think that the maximum amount of fame and the maximum amount of money does not always net you a win with what you've done. Instead, you can just play guitar for 15 minutes and enjoy doing it. You can play Disarmed by Smashing Pumpkins.

and just sing it really loud and be like, man, that was really fun. I love that song and don't post it anywhere. You don't have to worry about getting a copyright strike. You're in your living room right now. You know, so I would just encourage people to try and find fulfillment through the crafts that they're doing without necessarily turning it into a business. If you can make some money from it, that's great. If you don't make money from it, you're not a failure, you know?

Brian Funk (02:17:37.785)

Right. Yeah, exactly.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:17:58.262)

You don't, that's a part of the whole perfectionist thing. I didn't maximize it, you know? Maybe you didn't need to. Maybe you maximize by not maximizing. Okay.

Brian Funk (02:18:09.463)

That's true, sometimes... Less is more.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:18:14.122)

If you keep saying words, then eventually it makes sense. I don't know, I didn't get there. Well, Brian, man, I hope we get to do this again, and I hope it's not four years next time.

Brian Funk (02:18:18.211)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (02:18:23.789)

Yeah, well, that would be great. You keep doing cool stuff. So there's a lot to talk about.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:18:30.018)

Yeah man, I'll actually start a podcast and then I'll have you on my not a podcast.

Brian Funk (02:18:36.151)

Nice. Yeah, well, we should tell people just drive it home. Mighty Synth Sampler is on the App Store, Mac App Store, the mobile app store, whatever you want to call it. I'll put links to it. Yeah, I I love what you're doing. I love your attitude, your energy. And I'm glad we got a chance to reconnect here today.

Nick Culbertson (Moby Pixel) (02:19:00.248)

Well, thank you, man. The feeling is entirely mutual. I'll keep listening to the podcast. I appreciate your time. And yeah, I'm going to take some notes on some of the stuff you said. Just sort of.

Brian Funk (02:19:04.205)

Yeah, thanks.

Brian Funk (02:19:12.109)

Yeah, me too. took quite a few notes from you. So I'm thankful I got a chance talk to you again. And thankful to the listeners too. Thanks for sticking with us and enjoy your day.

This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Ableton’s Sampler.

• Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

• Ask - Participate in the discussion and ask questions.

• Do - Apply the lesson in a short activity. Get feedback and ask follow-up questions.

Join the Music Production Club and attend our meetings live.

Your Music Production Club membership gives you access to:

• My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

• The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

• Live Meetings Over Zoom - Meet with me and the MPC community online! Make music together, share tips and techniques, and give and receive feedback on your music.

• Music Production Club Exclusives - Ableton Live Packs, Templates, Samples, Presets, and more that are only available to members of the MPC.

• Educational Materials - My Video Course, Books, and Documents to help you level up your music.

• Our Online Community - Share your music with and get support from our thriving Discord community. and Monthly Live Meetings over Zoom.

• Bonus Materials - Free stuff from my store as well as gifts from some musical friends!

• Special Offers - MPC members get 50% off at my store and special discounts from music companies.

This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Ableton’s Simpler.

• Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

• Ask - Participate in the discussion and ask questions.

• Do - Apply the lesson in a short activity. Get feedback and ask follow-up questions.

Join the Music Production Club and attend our meetings live.

Your Music Production Club membership gives you access to:

• My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

• The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

• Live Meetings Over Zoom - Meet with me and the MPC community online! Make music together, share tips and techniques, and give and receive feedback on your music.

• Music Production Club Exclusives - Ableton Live Packs, Templates, Samples, Presets, and more that are only available to members of the MPC.

• Educational Materials - My Video Course, Books, and Documents to help you level up your music.

• Our Online Community - Share your music with and get support from our thriving Discord community. and Monthly Live Meetings over Zoom.

• Bonus Materials - Free stuff from my store as well as gifts from some musical friends!

• Special Offers - MPC members get 50% off at my store and special discounts from music companies.

This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Ableton’s Expression Control

• Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

• Ask - Participate in the discussion and ask questions.

• Do - Apply the lesson in a short activity. Get feedback and ask follow-up questions.

Join the Music Production Club and attend our meetings live.

Your Music Production Club membership gives you access to:

• My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

• The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

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15 Time-Saving Studio Hacks

I put together a video for Global Producer Community about little things in my studio that help me get to work faster and save time.

Simple things that save us a little bit of time here and there on repetitive actions can really add up!

I hope these help you save time so you can make more music!

This episode comes with a free download courtesy of Mike!
Click here to get Mikes Mixing and Mastering Checklists, as well as his own presets for the Slate Virtual Mixing Rack plug-in.

This episode is dedicated to (not sponsored by!) Darwin Audio and his awesome vintage soda/beer can microphones: https://darwinaudio.net

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Mic Nix Productions - https://mnproductions.com.au

• Mike's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPWr4L6nQq1YGU1-JK9XLnQ

• Mike's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/micnixpro/

• Free Download - Mike's Mixing and Mastering Checklists plus Slate VMR Presets - https://brianfunk.gumroad.com/l/ycmpj

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.358)

Okay, Mike, we are on. Welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.

Mike Nikou (00:05.86)

Brian, thanks so much for having me. Really appreciate it.

Brian Funk (00:09.346)

Yeah, it's great to talk to you. I've been watching your videos, especially on Instagram is where they really seem to know that I like you.

Mike Nikou (00:16.919)

that's great man. Well, thanks for the support.

Brian Funk (00:19.436)

Yeah, well, it's supporting me as well. I think you give out great advice, practical advice, sometimes technical, sometimes philosophical. It's always great when I flip up and then you pop up on there and you've always got something worth listening to. It's great stuff.

Mike Nikou (00:21.774)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (00:37.22)

Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Now, look, equally, I love what you're doing with your podcast as well. I like how you've got a lot of the little clips that tend to come up on Instagram and that it's really cool to just see some of those little key tidbits. And it definitely keeps me watching as well.

Brian Funk (00:55.106)

Yeah, cool. Yeah, we should probably say thanks to David Paul Newell for connecting us from the Midnight Mystery Club. He was on it.

Mike Nikou (01:02.038)

Absolutely. Thank you so much to David. Much appreciated. Such a great guy.

Brian Funk (01:08.044)

Yeah, yeah, he was really happy with your work and yeah, I mean, I heard the music too and it sounds great.

Mike Nikou (01:16.514)

Yeah, David's been fantastic to work with over the years and yeah, I love what he's him and Levar are doing with Midnight Mystery Club. Yeah, I think they've got some really cool things happening and it's always an absolute pleasure to work with the guys. Love their music.

Brian Funk (01:35.416)

Hmm. That's always nice, I guess, right? When things you're enjoying the project and the work. I wonder, I wonder if you could just give us the background story a little bit. I know you've got, you know, you're not just engineer, you're not wearing that hat and that perspective. You've also come from like being a musician and songwriter too, which I think is always really nice in any, even

Mike Nikou (01:43.275)

yeah, yeah definitely.

Mike Nikou (01:57.21)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (02:04.48)

say a drummer that understands songwriting a little bit or understands any other aspect that really deepens their ability in both areas. So yeah, I'd love to just hear a little bit about the story, how you got there and how you got here.

Mike Nikou (02:18.264)

Yeah, absolutely. Look, think sound and music, I think is something that I've been obsessed with as far back as I can remember. Even as a young kid, I remember playing like this little ukulele around the house and then I started walking around with one of those little rectangular tape machines, those little portable ones. And excuse me, I used to just walk around the house just recording sounds or I'd

Brian Funk (02:40.27)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Nikou (02:47.226)

record my younger brothers having an argument and play it back to them. I was, you know, even just simple things like, you know, messing around with the microphone on the tape deck and listening to the sounds it would make if you blew into it, or if you, you tapped it against something. So think I always had a bit of an obsession with sound and I have a theory that it was like, I'm compensating for my terrible vision. I think that's, so I've sort of...

Brian Funk (02:51.0)

You

Mike Nikou (03:14.488)

have this hyper awareness hearing or something. That's kind of my theory, but I was always obsessed with music. think, like I said, as far back as I can remember, my first inspiration, I think to play the guitar was, you know, hearing Dyer Straits and Mike Knopfler. You know, I grew up in the, eighties and nineties and first time I heard like Money For Nothing. I just, you know, it really made me take

Brian Funk (03:37.998)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Nikou (03:41.729)

notice of the guitar. And I think I became really obsessed with the idea of learning guitar. And then through early school, I remember I couldn't get into the guitar class because it was full. So they went into violin because I thought, cool, that's got strings. So I'll just run with that. And I remember playing that for a couple of years, but I always wanted to play guitar. And eventually I was, and end up being sort of self-taught over the years. I mean, I played a few instruments through my school years. And eventually

finally acquired a guitar and sort of spent years and years just teaching myself and got to end of high school and class of 95, me and two school friends decided we wanted to start a band and we were really into that whole 90s alternative rock grunge thing. It's funny because once it hit 95,

It was kind of the start of, guess, what people call like the post grunge era. So we were kind of in it. It was a funny time. I mean, the music scene here in Adelaide, it was very vibrant. There were so many great bands and, and, you know, it was really hard to sort of get a foot in the door. But we were just, we were naive young musicians. We couldn't play that well. We didn't have great equipment. But yeah, we were heavily influenced by bands like Green Day.

Brian Funk (04:42.945)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (05:08.186)

Smashing Pumpkins, Nirvana. I was a big fan of The Cure as well. So there was that kind of darker sort of moody, excuse me, chorus guitar sounds. I think even at that time using a chorus pedal kind of wasn't too cool in 95, but we were kind of into that. So we were a bit of a blend of a lot of those bands. And yeah, we played a lot of gigs. I've played in many bands over the years, even played in a

Brian Funk (05:20.215)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (05:37.627)

tribute band for a while. We were sort of like a Britpop tribute band where we were playing kind of Oasis and The Stones and The Smiths and all sorts of bands and we played a lot of gigs. We got to support some bands, iconic Australian bands like Mental as anything. I'm not sure if you've heard of those guys. But yeah, we played a lot of shows and then I sort of went into the whole... Went into the blues thing sort of in the mid sort of 2000s around.

Brian Funk (05:48.685)

Cool.

Mike Nikou (06:07.578)

2006 or thereabouts. I really started getting heavily into blues Stevie Ray Vaughan, John Mayer was heavily into things like sort of Steely Dan, Boz Skaggs and a lot of that sort of late seventies what they call Yacht Rock, I guess you could say and sort of went heavily into that and that became a strong focus for me for a number of years. I started doing some advanced

Brian Funk (06:25.598)

Hehehe.

Mike Nikou (06:33.722)

Jazz guitar and things like that had a mentor for a while which really helped me And he actually is got me on to back then Cubase, which is what led me into the whole production Mixing side of things. I'd always had you know, just sort of like your basic four tracks or just you know, sort of analog style recording devices and and then yeah, he sort of showed me Cubase which was back then was mostly known for

synths and kind of just the whole production. It was a really strong production suite. I used it for mixing a lot and I, to this day, I'm still a heavy Cubase user. It's my primary DAW. I have used Pro Tools a lot over the years. I've often run two setups where I've got both Mac and PC and have, you know, Cubase and Pro Tools as an option. But yeah, that's where I sort of started getting right in heavily into the...

production side of things mixing not only my own recordings, but you know friends, know, they would send me their tracks or I'd take the laptop and we'd tinker around and I really found myself becoming heavily into the recording side of things and mixing. It was always something I was really, really interested in. I think the first time I was in a studio with my first band and we recorded like a four track EP.

I just remember the, the, just the idea of being in the studio and seeing the console and just hearing everything come together. And I guess back then, like in the mid nineties, I just remember the whole mix down thing was kind of a bit of an afterthought. I think it's become much more of a thing now, but it was kind of just something. I mean, what we did was like at the end of the day, you'd finished tracking. And I remember the engineer was like, okay, we're ready for mix down now. And I was like, well,

you know, what's, what's mixed down as such. And then once I realized that's the stage where you actually start, you know, piecing everything together and adding the reverb and the compression and all of the hearing it come together. And I remember being like just absolutely, you know, fascinated with, with that process. Um, and yeah, and to this day, I think, uh, you know, since officially starting my, business back in 2015 formally, um,

Mike Nikou (08:56.706)

and just being heavily involved in that sort of mixing and mastering side of things. It's been a great journey. And to this day, like I'm still, I just love, I love what I do. It's the fact that I get to listen to new music every day and be involved in it. For me, it's, yeah, it's not a job as such. It's just a lifestyle. Music is just something I've always done, like I said, as far back as I can remember. And it's just...

It's just what I do, I guess.

Brian Funk (09:29.547)

Hmm. That's cool. A lot of parallels to what I did myself playing in bands and same sort of influences and, yeah, not, really knowing what we were doing, but figuring it out. And even just those playing around with the old tape recorders, something me and my friends used to like to do a lot as kids. and I can remember.

Mike Nikou (09:37.05)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (09:57.085)

We, a friend of mine and I were recording these just really silly songs that we were making up. There's just guitar and he would sing and mostly scream into the little like rectangular cassette tape recorder you're talking about. But sometimes we would record it and it would be ferocious. It would, we'd be overdriving the, we'd be saturating tape, you know, and all that. And other times we record it it was so weak sounding and we, we had no idea why.

Mike Nikou (10:06.884)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (10:24.406)

didn't make any sense to us. But that started getting me interested in it. not too long after I got like a cassette four track recorder and started doing little things with that. And that's how I got going too. And yeah, it's what you said about mixing is I remember that as well. The first time we ever played, recorded ourselves in a studio was.

Mike Nikou (10:36.152)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (10:48.746)

we, our guitar teacher knew a guy that had a basement studio, which was unusual back then and around probably like 1997.

Mike Nikou (10:58.234)

Yeah, so we grew up in the same era, so I think we're a similar age, so we went through that same lineage as such.

Brian Funk (11:01.738)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (11:06.476)

Yeah, yeah, we were like seniors in high school and we were recording our CD, know, four song CD and it was so fun. Like we, we felt like we made it, you know, we were just paying this guy to use his basement, but we were like, this is incredible. And it sounded so much better than our four track tapes. Yeah, really just.

Mike Nikou (11:12.014)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (11:17.976)

It's exciting.

Mike Nikou (11:27.822)

Yeah, definitely. It's a, remember that, that sense of, thinking, you know, wow, we can only, we can only accept this kind of sound. Now, like, think once you've been in a studio and you've actually gone through that formal process and the high quality equipment, and then you sort of come back to your own recordings, like four tracks or whatever, and you're like, we can't accept anything less than like a studio sound. And like I said, for me, it was

It really just started that obsession with recording quality. think even as a kid, I think I had an obsession with like the sound of a record as well. I I listened to a lot of, you know, even things like Michael Jackson. I just think that the sounds of the records were like, man, there's just this sound, the clarity, the... And then when like the CDs became, you know, the main...

way for people to consume music. And then it was like, wow, well, you know, records and tape sounded good, but CDs are a whole nother level. then it sort of, yeah, just that obsession with the sound quality. I think that's something that's always been consistent. I mean, I remember tinkering around with the EQ on the home Hi-Fi system and learning that the smiley face EQ curve even back then, oh, that's a cool sound, you know? So I think I even, had that,

Brian Funk (12:28.372)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (12:45.599)

Okay.

Mike Nikou (12:50.97)

I don't know, just had an obsession with that.

Brian Funk (12:55.572)

Yeah, yeah, I would use that to try to hear instruments like this is like this particular frequency. I didn't even know it was a frequency. It was just, you know, one of those little sliders that you'd make the smiley face on. I was like, this is where the guitar is. And I can like figure out the guitar part a little better if I turn this one up and turn that one down and sort of isolated, I guess.

Mike Nikou (13:07.023)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (13:18.7)

Yeah. Well, I mean, I remember we had like, like a four band EQ on our home, you know, stereo system growing up. And I remember thinking, man, if I only had just a few more of those little sliders, I could, I could do more with that.

Brian Funk (13:29.836)

Yeah, right, and here we are.

Mike Nikou (13:34.114)

Yeah, and here we are. Yeah, we got infinite sliders now.

Brian Funk (13:38.356)

It gives you an appreciation though, right? Like going through that and then when you get into Cubase and you understand how much power you have because you've experienced those four tracks and, you know, kind of really simple setups that we had to deal with.

Mike Nikou (13:56.161)

for sure. And I think the challenge nowadays is to, you know, it's kind of like that kid in a candy store thing. You've really, over the years, I've learned that simplicity has so much value when, whether you're recording, mixing, or whatever it may be. think, you know, when I first started out, I think everyone goes through that phase of collating plugins and just getting everything you can get and trying everything. And, you know, it's an obsession in that respect as well. Like just,

it's infinite choices and over the years it's I've seen myself gradually just move away from so many of them and just having simple high quality EQ or something that has a very specific sound I think is more of my approach now like I'm very conscious of that whole plug-in overload thing

And if that's something I can tell anyone that's recording or mixing their own music is really learn what you're doing and why you're doing it. because there's, there's no need to just dump a bunch of plugins on something because you've heard that someone has a chain with 16 plugins and they got that sound through that method. so that's, yeah, I think it definitely gives you that appreciation having that background in where we didn't.

have the choices and when you do have a lot of choices you go through that phase of yeah I think it's just a process isn't it.

Brian Funk (15:30.976)

Hmm. Because back in those days you dreamed of, if I only had this, if I only had that, I, mean, I had a rack mount reverb and a rack mount compressor, which is actually behind me. still get the, the Alesis Microverb 3 and, and then the, 3630 compressor. And I could only either.

Mike Nikou (15:37.818)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (15:44.984)

Yeah, nice.

Wow, that's a classic.

Brian Funk (15:59.604)

run it directly through and record the effect printed. Or if I had it on an aux channel, that was it. You could only really work with it in that level. And I'm realized, you know, now years later after going through all that, trying to download every plugin I could find and, you know, navigate the dark alleys of the internet to get them all. that

Mike Nikou (16:25.443)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:29.671)

is kind of a better approach a lot of times because when you have too many things go on, you just can't suss it out in your brain. You just hear a wall of noise and mush most of the time.

Mike Nikou (16:44.41)

Yeah, and I think limitations are actually a benefit to creativity because it actually forces you to be creative. Whereas when you have too many options, you're focused more about, how can I utilize this piece of equipment or how can I utilize that plugin? And I've bought this thing and I really want to use that in this song. Whereas if you don't have any of that, you're thinking about your song, you're focused on the song and you're like, well, I've only got this to use and I have to make it work.

And I really think that, especially at the creative stage, I think when you're writing and composing and arranging something.

the less you have, I really think that helps the creative process. I think, mean, even if, you know, like if you're in the electronic music space where you've got infinite synths and things like that, I think even just limiting yourself to maybe a couple of hardware synths to, it forces you to focus on, well, this is what I can get out of this instrument. And you just...

It just limits you in that respect and prevents you from going off on tangents, which ultimately just kills the vibe a lot of the time because you're no longer focusing on the inspiration that led you to want to make the song. You're focusing on, or how can I use this compressor or how can I use this instrument or whatever it may be. I think limitations have some value.

Brian Funk (18:16.777)

Yeah, it's, I think I bought some of these synths around me for the sound and you know, have something tactile to play with. But I'm starting to feel that maybe one of the best features of them is that I don't have multiple copies of them. So I can't do seven tracks of this synth unless I commit first and then record another track. Whereas if I open up any plugin or...

Mike Nikou (18:34.074)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (18:39.46)

Yes.

Brian Funk (18:44.123)

you know, can have 32 different versions of the same synth on different tracks and be stacking them and thinking I'm making complex sounds by layering things together. And, like you said, kind of never moving forward. I've got maybe like a cool riff or something or a cool loop. And now I'm just dressing it up and dressing it up and dressing it up instead of moving to the next part, the next section maybe, or, and

Mike Nikou (19:11.705)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (19:12.873)

When I do that, I find it almost impossible to build another section because I've got this super deluxe thing going on for four, eight, 16 bars. And then the next thing is nothing. It's like a kick and a snare. Like it sounds so weak and doesn't feel connected.

Mike Nikou (19:24.346)

Mmm.

Mike Nikou (19:34.451)

for sure. And I think with modern recordings, and a lot of people have adopted that mindset of, we'll fix it in the mix. And so the concept of committing is now, it's scary to a lot of people because they want the options. They want to know that, you know, we can mangle the sound in any way that we want, and we can manipulate it. We can do whatever we want with it.

you know, with plugins or whatever it may be. And I think what often happens is, you know, they'll maybe try 20 or 30 different approaches for a particular sound and get to the mix. And they're like, Hey, we didn't quite get what we wanted through, you know, this part of the production. We're hoping you can do X, Y, and Z in the mix. And I think then you're putting yourself in a position where it's hard to be happy with the mix because you're not happy with the recording.

So my philosophy is if you are able to commit to a sound, take the time to maybe try out, if you're recording guitars for example, get the amp sounding how you want it to sound, get the right strings on your instrument, get the right pedals or whatever it may be, and just experiment there. And once you get that to a point where you're like, okay, I'm happy to hit record now.

I think there's so much value in that because if you're happy with the recorded sound, the mix is going to be even better. Like it's going to be next level again, because you're already happy with maybe what you've already got. You might even have a, like a rough mix that you're really happy with. And then it becomes, Hey, we really need to only improve this maybe by 10%. And then, but that 10 % is, is just a phenomenal level. So I think, yeah.

the concept of committing. I tell this to a lot of people that I work with that get into the habit of experimenting when you're recording and committing to a sound and get it to a point where you're like, you know what? I really, I really liked that. And I'm really happy with where that sits.

Brian Funk (21:53.161)

Hmm. Well, every sound kind of informs the next sound, right? And you're building stuff to work together. So when you do make those commitments, if I say sequence some drums and I print them to audio, I now have to make everything work with that. Whereas when I don't commit, can maybe, okay, I got a cool beat and then I, this bass is really neat, but I'm going to have to do something to the drums now to make it fit.

Mike Nikou (21:59.236)

It does.

Mike Nikou (22:07.77)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (22:11.962)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:21.266)

and then you fix the drums and your keyboard's all out of whack now. So you gotta change that and everything gets affected. But reacting to what you have, I find is, yeah, much better way as well. And you can actually.

Mike Nikou (22:29.135)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (22:35.15)

And it's very easy to fall into that wall of sound nowadays because of the infinite choices. It's very easy for things to quickly become just mush. And I think once you've done a few recordings and maybe you've had a bit of experience, I think you start understanding what true dynamics is and what creating space means.

Once you start learning that the kick drum occupies this particular space in the frequency domain, the guitars are going to take up this sort of area. The vocals need to sit in this other area. So think once you start learning about where things fit in the grand scheme of things, I think that's when you really start progressing to a level where

not only maybe you're writing and arranging, but you're thinking about, I know that these synths are going to take up a lot of space. So I need to make sure that those tonally allow the vocals to come through or whatever it may be. it's, yeah, I think once you start getting to that level, then you really start understanding how dynamics works and just how.

not just with arrangements, with the sound and how all of the frequencies fit together.

Brian Funk (24:09.352)

when I was doing my first years and years of recording. You know, I wanted everything to be huge or whatever. I wanted my guitar to be thick and heavy. So I'd be turning bass up on everything and probably soloing and listening like, yeah, listen to that guitar. You know, huge and then hit the bass. And then you put it all together and it's like, it sounds weak. Like what happened here?

Mike Nikou (24:16.451)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (24:35.146)

that revelation of understanding that they have to all work together. And I started thinking of the entire frequency spectrum, like a canvas that a painter might have. And I can't paint my house and my tree and my river all in this one corner. You know, I have to spread things out and give them their space. And that made a huge difference when my guitar sounded bigger when I actually...

Mike Nikou (24:44.783)

Yes.

Mike Nikou (24:55.8)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (25:02.386)

let them have less space and let other things support it.

Mike Nikou (25:07.234)

Yeah, it's really, it's phenomenal what you can actually do with less sometimes. Like I'm using an example of, you know, music I grew up listening to, like when I think about bands that were an inspiration to me, like, you know, whether it's Smashing Pumpkins or Green Day or whatever it is. I mean, Green Day were a three-piece band and they sound huge. Okay. Yes, there were double and triple tracks of the guitar, but it sounded absolutely massive. You know, and I remember reading an article,

long time ago where Billy Corgan from, you know, the pumpkins was talking about, when they recorded some tracks in melancholy and he was like, well, that track has got 60 rhythm guitar tracks on it. And I remember thinking, well, that's, you know, that's the answer. That's the answer to a big sound. We've got to just, we've got to have like 50 guitar tracks to make it sound like that. But without understanding that those tracks may be, there might be a minuscule of it.

Brian Funk (25:53.715)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (26:06.948)

blended in in a certain higher octave or whatever it is. And then you sort of compare that to like say a Green Day where they were tracking with a much simpler setup, but it still sounds equally as big. So there are different ways I think to get a similar result as well. And really comes down to your identity and your philosophy on recording and how you naturally perform as well. think that's

I think that's something people should always look at if you're a band and you're playing live. mean, what do you actually sound like when you're on stage and you're performing? What do you actually sound like? And I think it's easy for, you know, when you're in the studio, it's easy to say, well, let's add another 10 guitars. Are you going to be able to reproduce that? That was something I was always worried about in the bands I played. I was like, we can't reproduce that live. There's no point adding all of these extra

Brian Funk (26:51.604)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (27:02.146)

sounds because I just remember always having, you know, that thought process of, we have to be able to somehow reproduce it live. And it's a different thing altogether, of course. But I think philosophically, I think that's where, you know, a lot of modern bands struggle because they do often record these elaborate tracks, which has made them heavily reliant on backing tracks now. Excuse me. A lot of the big

artists that are performing now are completely reliant on backing tracks. and I, I, not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but it's just, it's different, I guess.

Brian Funk (27:41.802)

Yeah, I don't think I'm a big fan of it, actually. Generally speaking, of course. And I'm like an Ableton Live guy. I love that stuff. And, you know, I use Ableton Live to perform. But in the rock band situation, I don't have a lot of interest in it. I don't like that it forces you to a click.

Mike Nikou (27:47.961)

Mm.

Brian Funk (28:11.771)

I don't, I get an uneasy feeling when I see a band and I don't know what I'm hearing. You know, like I see, okay, there's these four people playing, but where's that sound coming from? And where's that? I don't know if that's really what they're playing. And it just makes you start wondering if you're really hearing anything after a while. Are they singing? Is because there's another track, there's all these harmonies and

Mike Nikou (28:28.911)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (28:37.486)

Yeah. And it's, it's almost become the, the, the standard way that bands operate now. you know, everything is done via in-ear monitoring. Everything is done to a click. Often you're, you don't know if you're hearing a recorded, vocal or a live vocal. I dunno, I think part of it maybe comes from perhaps in some cases, they're not as rehearsed as maybe they need to be. Maybe they need.

those tracks to actually make it sound, you know, palatable, I guess, for the audience. Because I think once you strip everything down and say you're a three piece or a four piece, you know, people are expecting you to sound a certain way. You know, if you've put records out and you're promoting that record and you're touring, people have an expectation of what they're coming to see. And I think that's where maybe the pressure has come in because people have geared more towards that more elaborate

Brian Funk (29:29.768)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (29:37.048)

recording, layered, multiple vocals. You know, they're in a situation where they have to use them just to portray something similar to what they've put out there in the world, I guess.

Brian Funk (29:50.186)

It could also be our heritage being, we've lived through this. Well, I mean, I think of like Milli Vanilli when they were exposed or even more recently, still a while ago now, but Ashley Simpson. She was on Saturday Night Live and they queued the wrong track or something.

Mike Nikou (29:55.662)

Yeah, maybe it's that. Maybe we're just too old.

Mike Nikou (30:03.321)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (30:11.482)

Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Brian Funk (30:18.085)

You know, she'd like kind of danced around, but and that like killed her career. Same thing with Millie Vanilla. And now I just don't think anyone would care. I'd be like, they just started the wrong track. Who cares? like back then there was some, I guess we didn't, we weren't, we hadn't accepted it as much, you know, like now we kind of know if I'm going to watch someone perform at the Superbowl. I'm not really hearing them perform. This is a very, and like you said too, so much of the production and this

Mike Nikou (30:43.151)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (30:47.345)

makes sense to me. It's gotten so elaborate that people want to hear it like they know it. So if it's too stripped down.

Mike Nikou (30:53.028)

They do. Yeah, I think more and more people, definitely more and more people seem to have, audiences seem to have an expectation. They want to hear the record when they pay tickets to a show. you know, I don't know. It feels that people want to hear the record more. And I think they feel like they're not getting their money's worth unless they hear, whereas I don't know.

Growing up in a time where you didn't know what bands were going to do. I think that was the excitement. I think you would, you would go see a band. mean, you love their album and you think, I hope they play this song. you know, like I was a big fan of counting crows for many years and I really love their, I mean, as a live band, they are a completely different animal. Like they are not, they, they are completely freeform to a degree, even to the point where, you know,

the singer Adam Duritz is he almost just goes on these poetic tangents and it's each night is different. And I don't know. I find that interesting and exciting to go to a show where, okay, yeah, you've got some songs you'd love to hear. But I think part of a show is, you know, you're not a hundred percent sure maybe what, what they're going to do. And I find that that was always exciting. I mean, there was some

acts where you thought, you know, if they play this song, it has to sound a certain way. And you might be disappointed if they didn't hit the mark, so to speak. But overall, I think even now, if I go to a show, I'm hoping that I'm going to see the group or whoever it is do something interesting, maybe something that's not necessarily how it is on the album. And I find that far more exciting than just...

paying tickets to go see a show where it's just going to sound exactly like the recording. I'm not sure what the appeal of that is, but it seems, guess a lot of people do have that attachment to it now.

Brian Funk (32:57.539)

To bring up Billy Corgan again, I think I read an interview with him in Guitar World in the 90s where he said, I don't want to hear a band sound exactly like the album. I have the album. I want to hear something different. I want to have a new experience with that. kind of echoing what you're saying. And I think in the example of the Counting Crows too, I get the sense just by the way he sings that his vocal performances are probably pretty

Mike Nikou (33:07.01)

Yeah

Mike Nikou (33:13.882)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (33:27.657)

like malleable, you know, that he's kind of riffing. And I think a lot of the records are probably just what he was doing that day.

Mike Nikou (33:38.479)

that day. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's exactly what it would have been. And I don't think they would have ever played a song the same way twice. He probably had slightly different lyrics, like you said, depending on what he was feeling on that day. And just that ability to interchange and just work on the fly. I think that's, it's pretty cool.

Brian Funk (33:53.577)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (34:01.969)

Yeah. And that would be what I'd want to see him do. I much the way if I was going to see, I don't know, like Eric Clapton play, I don't need him to be note for note on the grid, you know, click track to what he, I want to see him just play guitar in real life, you know, in real time and reacting. but yeah, I guess.

Mike Nikou (34:15.139)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (34:23.054)

Yeah, definitely.

Brian Funk (34:31.077)

That might, I wonder if that is a product of production that we've just kind of got now that we want this live performance to be on par sonically, you know, of similar quality and also just, I want it to sound like what I know.

Mike Nikou (34:43.194)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (34:46.65)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (34:52.12)

Yeah. And I think, because we've created this ecosystem of, everything being reliant on what's in the computer as well. I think now that the computer is now what used to be the, you know, the big recording console and all of the equipment, like the computer is really the hub of everything, whether you're, you know, tracking, you know, analog instruments, guitars, or synths, that the computer is the hub.

and we've created an ecosystem where everything exists within that virtual world. And so we've become reliant on how that all works. there aren't too many performers now where the whole show is not really run by some sort of laptop or multiple laptops, whether it's the, you know, the backing tracks, the lighting, whatever it is. you know, everything, it comes back to that central hub of the computer.

And I think that's just where everything exists now. And so it's to recreate a lot of those complex layered recordings now, it's almost impossible because you'd be in a situation where you'd probably need a 15 piece band to, if someone was individually playing all of those parts, then I just don't know how it would practically work. And kudos to those.

artists out there that are actually, you know, in a position where they're able to bring out, you know, a string section or multiple keyboard players, whatever it may be. think, you know, good on you for giving it a shot from that side of things and trying to recreate your elaborate recording in a live sense. You know, there aren't too many that are doing it now. I mean, it's the economies of scale with how music works makes it very difficult to justify.

that sort of cost as well. think that's a big part of where things are at now. think so many things are cost prohibitive in the modern music world. Whilst the entry level is, you know, it's very easy to get into it now. You can buy a cheap laptop. You can get a free door. You can get some free plugins and you can get up and running quick. think that's one of the best things that has

Mike Nikou (37:18.262)

evolved over the years is that creative people and musicians and artists now have a much lower barrier to entry. So there's, you don't have to save up thousands and thousands of dollars just to get some basic equipment. You can get up and running for a very low entry fee now. So, and I, so I think for anyone that's creative to be able to actually be creative without having to spend thousands of dollars. think that's one thing where

that's evolved over the years. think the whole gatekeeping side of things has changed the way the industry works. think it's, anyone can work now. You can create music at home. You can create it with your friends in a basement, whatever it may be. You know, it's an open platform for people to access now fairly easily.

Brian Funk (38:08.358)

It is a really cool thing. even just for beginners opening up GarageBand or anything like that, even on the phone, I you're already as well, like at such a standard of quality above where you, we could ever get with our four tracks right out of the gate. So it's encouraging. it's, I really hope that that

makes people make more stuff, make more art. Because I do worry, and I think we talked a little bit about this right before we hit record, just how times have changed and we're so distracted by those very same devices that give us all this power. Because I've, I've wondered if I would have learned guitar if I was coming up now, you know, to struggle through it, you know, the not be able to do it. doesn't sound good. My fingers hurt and

Mike Nikou (38:39.674)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (39:00.026)

Mmm.

Brian Funk (39:07.368)

I could have got a nice dopamine release on Instagram instead. So I hope.

Mike Nikou (39:11.706)

Hmm. Well, that's the challenge for young people nowadays. I think that's, you know, deciding on where they're going to focus their energies. mean, for someone that is inclined to learn guitar, mean, the resources that are available for free now are absolutely phenomenal. Phenomenal. Could you imagine if we had YouTube when we were kids and you wanted to learn the solo from Sultans of Swing, which I spent years, you know, sitting on the end of my bed, stopping the tape.

Brian Funk (39:36.018)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (39:40.667)

press play, I think that note sounds like that, play it 50 billion times. I think that's right, but it was maybe completely wrong. But whereas now you can get to a certain level. I mean, I speak to people that say, yeah, you know, I started playing guitar three months ago and they're kind of already at a level where, so I guess they've been able to bypass a lot of those years of struggle to a degree and get to a certain, for the, just for the information.

Brian Funk (40:06.226)

for the information especially. Yeah.

Mike Nikou (40:09.39)

so I think if that can shorten the, the time that it takes for you to get to a certain level, and if you're motivated to do that, I think the tools that are available now are far ahead of what we had, you know, growing up, it was just wasn't, it wasn't available. The information wasn't there. You had to really dig. You had to find books. You had to find maybe a video that was available to rent at the store or something, to learn about something. So it's...

I think if you are a motivated person to do that, the resources are readily available at no cost now. So, but like you were saying, the trick is, can a lot of young people even be bothered? Like they can get that quick dopamine hit on the socials. They can do all of that stuff and it's, be a real minefield for people to navigate, I think, particularly young kids that are in school and whatnot.

to sort of decide where they want to divide their time and what they want to dedicate their time to because the distractions would just be endless nowadays.

Brian Funk (41:21.731)

Yeah. And as much as it's given us a platform where we can share our stuff, get our stuff out there, it seems to have made us consumers so much more. I can definitely speak for myself. I mean, there's just so much information I take in every day and so many people's YouTubes or channels or Instagrams and that I just, really enjoy it.

Mike Nikou (41:40.282)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (41:49.926)

But I spend as much time probably watching and learning and listening about music as I do making it.

Mike Nikou (42:00.783)

Yeah, for sure. think everyone's in that same situation now. think, I mean, yeah, whether it's YouTube or whatever it may be, I think there are so many rabbit holes to go down now that it's just so easy to, fly off on all sorts of tangents. I think it's great from an information side of things. I mean, I love learning new things. I think it's, it's always enjoyable to learn about something new and the fact that we can easily do that now with very little

Brian Funk (42:13.927)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (42:22.235)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (42:30.596)

cost investment as such. I think that's one thing that's really changed, I think, because it wasn't too long ago where you had to really decide on, you know, what you want to invest in, whether it's your time or your money. You had to be pretty selective because once you were committed and you paid for it, you better make sure you got the value out of it. Whereas now I think you can sort of dabble in all sorts of different things, whether you're into music or cooking or...

Brian Funk (42:53.607)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (42:57.454)

Cars or whatever it may be I think you can easily dabble and learn about things and be like, yeah You know, I've I've watched a bunch of videos on that. I'm not sure that's for me So you can kind of get to a certain level and I think maybe fine-tune your Your interests and and maybe find things that you didn't know that you liked and I think that's but then it gets back to that distraction side of things does it create a situation where everyone is kind of

I don't know, like not so much a jack of all trades, but you know, just sort of mediocre at everything because there are so many different things we're doing now that it takes an extraordinary amount of discipline to stay focused on one thing. So that maybe that's an opportunity for people now. I think those people that do choose to, to specialize as such, that's where the opportunity is perhaps.

Brian Funk (43:51.612)

I think you're probably right. That is a hard thing to come by somebody that is, and it's hard for me even just, and even within music, it's hard. It's hard for me to pick the one plugin I'm going to learn really well or the one technique or even the one genre of music I'm going to play today. Those are hard decisions and sometimes crippling and it's not because I don't want to do it.

Mike Nikou (44:05.454)

Yeah, absolutely.

Brian Funk (44:18.599)

because I want to do it all. And now I have access. It used to just be, I got a guitar and I got a friend that plays drums. So let's make music. Not anymore.

Mike Nikou (44:28.1)

Yeah. I mean, the whole information overload thing is a real thing now. Like even if we do localize it back to music, it's very easy to just be completely distracted and overwhelmed by the choices that we have just through the, you know, the setups that we've created for ourselves now. And it is something that I actively try to remind myself of. Even when we're

talking about things like, you know, sort of mixing and mixing templates. and I think that's where I think people make the mistake of thinking that a template is something where we can bunch all of our plugins onto it and we can apply those amazing plugins to everything. Whereas I really try to, and I've done a few videos on it where it's like a toolkit, like a plumber's toolkit. You know, you're a plumber term turns up to a job and they're not going to use every

you know, they're not going to use like the same wrench for every job or whatever it is. Like they have a certain set of things, tools that they trust that they know can, can do a certain job. And that's something that I really try to employ when it comes to mixing is, the templates that I use are just having my tools available without me having to search through the menu and add, like everything is always loaded in bypass cause

You want to hear the raw tracks. You don't want to hear any of the plugins. And once I've kind of built the session, then I'll remove a bunch of things. You know, like I might be like, okay, I don't need any of those plugins for this track. We can get rid of that. Even with things like routing, Cubase has got a really cool new feature where you drop the audio tracks in a folder and that folder is automatically routed to whatever bus you've set it to.

Like say, so if you've got, like I was mixing a track last week that had 80 backing vocal tracks just for backing vocals. So I was able to, I was able to drop those vocal tracks into a folder labeled, you know, backing vocals. And that's automatically routed to my backing vocal bus. So, whereas previously you would have to go into the, like you'd have to bring up the mixing view and you'd have to highlight all of the tracks, you know, right click.

Brian Funk (46:27.355)

you

Brian Funk (46:33.703)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (46:48.61)

route them to, you know, whatever bus you want to, but it's done automatically. Now you literally just dump the audio files in the folder and providing that folder is routed correctly in your template, it's ready to go. So that's a huge game changer, literally just came out, I think last month in the latest version of Cubase. So even things like that, from an efficiency side of things, it forces me to focus on what I need to focus on because

Like I said, with the whole template side of things, I will remove a bunch of plugins that I don't need because I know I'm not going to use them. So that's really something that I try to actively remind myself of. Excuse me. When I'm going through the whole mixing stage, I'm trying to remind myself of, you know, what do I actually need here? What tools do I need? What tools can I trust? And what tools are going to get me the result that I'm looking for?

Brian Funk (47:49.159)

Right, I love that plumber analogy. I think I heard you talk about that in one of your videos, but it is true. you got the stuff you need for most situations, right? And yes, the goal is not to use every wrench I've got in my toolbox. You take the one that's gonna fit.

Mike Nikou (47:55.962)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (48:06.148)

Hmm. It's funny because I scroll through, yeah, I scroll through my plugins sometimes and I come across one and I'm like, wow, I forgot I had that plugin. That's a great plugin. I might use that one day. It's, but yeah, like I've really tried to consciously gravitate towards my go-to tools and I feel that it's helped me create even better mixes or masters, whatever it may be.

Brian Funk (48:19.334)

You

Mike Nikou (48:36.874)

I think it's just helped refine the process because you know what you're getting as well and you know how to get what you want out of it. I think that's part of the battle. think you might say, I've got a vision for the sound of this track, but knowing how to get what's in your head, that's the challenge. And I think that's what's taken years, I think, to get to that point where, you know, I hear a track and I'm like, yeah, I know what we need to do there.

this is what I need to employ to get that sound. And that takes a long time. Like I said, I started, you know, formally doing this back in 2015, but it's taken this number of years to get to that point where I think, you know, I have that confidence that I can say, you know, I can, I can achieve the sound that I hear in my head.

Brian Funk (49:24.294)

That kind of reminds me again, something from our shared experience where you and I would buy a piece of gear back in the day and you were kind of stuck with it, right? You couldn't send it back to Amazon and they, you could order, I needed a distortion pedal recently. I ordered three and sent two back, you like, you learned your equipment. You learned it. You understood it. And

Mike Nikou (49:38.542)

Hmm. Yeah.

Mike Nikou (49:53.732)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (49:54.831)

That's something that has been a huge help for me inside the DAW is to get used to certain plugins and get used to how they work and how they respond. And then learning like, this is good for this. This does a nice job here. I think probably a lot of the old gear that we kind of put on a pedestal these days and there's all these recreations you can download of. I mean, a lot of it is really amazing, but I think

Part of it is because the people spent time with it and learned how to pull those sounds out and where they excelled. And that is, I think, part of the legendary status is learning the gear because, I mean, as I've said, I've scoured the dark alleys of the internet when I first got my computer to find every plugin and I would get all these really interesting things of old gear and not understand why this was such a great plugin.

Mike Nikou (50:27.256)

Mmm.

Mike Nikou (50:52.026)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (50:53.124)

Like, okay, what's the big deal about this? Cause I didn't know how to use it. didn't know what I was doing with any of this stuff. But when you spend a little time with something and understand its function and how to use it, I find that to be the most important thing to have is that understanding of how to use it rather than which one, which DAW, which plugin, it's more the one you know. That's the one.

Mike Nikou (51:18.446)

Yeah, absolutely. And I've learned over the years why certain pieces of equipment or plugins are as famous as they are. I've, you know, I'm confident now in most cases I can get whatever I need with just an 1176 and LA2A, a Manly Massive Passive, you know, maybe a BaxEQ. And so these, once you learn how these tools work properly,

They are that good because they can do so much and you can get what you need very quickly. you know, it took a long time to really learn, you know, just the intricacies of even something as simple as an 1176 compressor and how that works. Once you really understand what it's doing. I think that the turning point for me was when I realized I could hear compression.

In the early days, like, yeah, think it's that compressor sounds cool. And then once you can actually hear what compression is, you understand attack, release and ratio and how that all works. And you can hear it. Like, you know, if you can hear an eight to one ratio versus a two to one, and you know what it's doing, that's when I felt the game really changed for me because I could impart that sound whenever I needed to.

and I knew how to get that sound. that was, and it gets back to what you were saying about learning your equipment, whether it's a distortion plugin or, you know, whatever it may be. Once you have that in-depth understanding of it, you know how to get what you need out of it. And then it becomes a genuine tool.

Brian Funk (53:04.614)

Well then you can also stay in that flow a bit better, you're not trying to figure out how this thing works.

Mike Nikou (53:08.995)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (53:13.036)

the worst thing for creativity is to, you know, be tinkering around with something to get it working. There's nothing worse. There's nothing that will kill a vibe more than like, you know, trying to figure out a pedal. Like, I even when you're rehearsing with the band, there's nothing worse than you're getting in a flow and someone's got a problem with their new pedal that they bought and everyone just stops playing and like, okay. And it's...

Brian Funk (53:19.162)

there.

Brian Funk (53:36.309)

Yeah, it's like,

Mike Nikou (53:41.605)

It makes a big difference. You know, I remember one time we were rehearsing and our bass player had just bought this really expensive new bass rig. And he wheeled it into the rehearsal room and he set it up in the corner and turned it on. And it was like at a really low setting, but the entire rehearsal room, all we heard was bass guitar. And we were like, man, we can't even hear the drums properly. All we can hear is that thumping of that bass.

Brian Funk (53:43.546)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:03.865)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (54:10.54)

And the whole rehearsal session was just basically him calibrating the bass guitar. But yeah, look, it's amazing how that sort of stuff can really, it really affects creativity as well. I really like to try to separate, like if I'm learning a new piece of gear or whatever it is, I try to dedicate like, okay, so what I'm doing today is I'm figuring this thing out.

Brian Funk (54:16.323)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (54:39.578)

It's not a creative session, it's a tinkering session or it's a learning session. think being able to segment that and separate things. I think that's really important even when you're recording and producing, being able to separate when you start the mix and when you've decided that the mix is complete before you go to mastering, think separating those phases, you know,

the recording stage, if you're still arranging and you still haven't decided on whether or not that second verse works or whatever it is, maybe you're not a hundred percent ready to formally record. Maybe you're still demoing. But I think having that, you know, that conscious approach of, okay, we understand we're not ready to record yet. We're still demoing or, you know, we're not ready to master yet because the mix is not quite where we want it. And I think just,

Yeah. Separating things, I think is a huge benefit in that when it, whether it's from when you're learning something as opposed to, you know, when you're mastering a final record.

Brian Funk (55:44.358)

Right. You kind of know. It's nice to decide to, and I mean, I go, I do both ways, right? Like, cause a lot of times when I'm writing, I'm producing, I'm mixing, I'm doing it all at once. I don't, I might not even have the idea yet. I'm just, and I guess you would say that's kind of demoing. but most of the time that becomes the final thing anyway. But when it's something maybe like with the band I play in.

where we have the song, we know what we're doing, it's already kind of put together, that stuff has been figured out. It is very helpful to say, okay, we're done recording stuff now, next. know, we got the guitars, they're done and move on from there. Cause otherwise, yeah, I've done it where like I'm mixing the drums, we recorded the drums and I'm like, getting the drums sound great and they sound awesome now.

I have no headroom for anything else. The bass player comes over and we try to do bass and I gotta undo everything I did anyway. I gotta circle back. I've made the song sound great if it was a drum song only, but it's not.

Mike Nikou (56:51.267)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (56:56.846)

And I think once you're at a certain level of proficiency, like you are, you can blur the lines more easily because you sort of know what the end goal is and you can blend those lines of production. yeah, let's kind of, let's kind of get this sound, you know, whether it's with drums or whatever it may be, you kind of know where you're going with it. And I think that's where it becomes part of that whole fluid process of creativity. And I think

you you definitely have to be at a certain level of proficiency to be able to do that. And it's certainly, you know, it's something that, people can do. Absolutely. It's, I think the separating of the task is definitely helpful if you're even at an intermediate stage, maybe where you're still finding your identity as well and still finding what your sound is. That's where I think it can be hugely helpful to separate each task.

But yeah, definitely once you're at that, you know, there are many producers that are, you know, at that level where you can be like, you know, I'm kind of writing, I'm kind of arranging, I'm kind of mixing. I've got one ear on the master as well. I'm like, you know, we're sort of lingering around this sort of level of loudness at the moment. I'm pretty sure we can get there by doing X, Y and Z. That's, yeah, that's definitely more, you know, it's a way that you can do it. Absolutely. Once you have that level of proficiency and even that in itself can be,

that can be inspiring to work that way as well. It's different for everyone, guess, isn't it? And whatever level you're at.

Brian Funk (58:30.469)

Yeah, and I think maybe even just styles of music too. Certain styles are more production heavy and more sound dependent and others are more song, that kind of stuff arrangement.

Mike Nikou (58:35.247)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (58:41.754)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (58:48.782)

Yeah, definitely.

Brian Funk (58:50.933)

I guess, I wanted to ask you a little bit about what it's like, for you when you get a song to mix, something comes in, you've kind of mentioned you've got your templates. So you've got like your tools are there kind of almost like the chef to the Misen blasts. Like, you got everything there. what are some of the first things that you do as you're starting to, I'm assuming people will be sending you probably.

Mike Nikou (59:03.224)

Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, same concept.

Brian Funk (59:18.885)

The individual tracks maybe stems, but I would imagine you're probably getting everything separate for the most part. Yeah

Mike Nikou (59:24.942)

Yeah, full multi-track is usually what I'd be getting. I love to listen to the rough mix. encourage people to... I mean, if they don't have a rough mix, that's totally fine. I think rough mix for me helps give me a picture of how the artist views themself as well. How they perceive the song, what they prioritize. When I'm listening to the rough mix, you know, I'm listening for...

Okay, well, what's the prominence of this guitar here? Okay, well, that solo there is really important or, and I'm also, I'm really trying to just listen to the song. I mean, that's one thing I find really enjoyable, just sitting back, pressing play and listening to the music for the sake of listening to the music. And what I'm trying to do is connect emotionally with that track to get a feel for...

you know, what is the song making me feel as a, like say if I was listening as a music fan and I was listening to it, what am I feeling? What am I thinking about when I hear it? Does it remind me of, of another song? Does it inspire me in a way where it's like, wow, I think this song would really be great with X, Y, and Z or this type of sound. So that's initially what I'm listening for. And that's a big part of it.

I always like to have a chat to the artist as well and say, Hey, know, what are you, what are you hoping to achieve with this mix? Like, what are your goals? Is it part of a, is it part of an album? Is it part of an EP? What's the overall vibe that you're going for? A bit of a Q and A to try to sort of get a idea of what they're hoping to achieve. That's part of the process. And once I've been through that and I generally tend to

get to a point pretty quickly where I'm like, okay, I definitely know where I want to take this mix. And then it's a process of diving into the individual tracks. you know, I'm looking for, making sure there is no clipped files there where there's distortion or just some abnormalities. If there are any problems with the audio files, I'll sort of go back to the client and say, Hey, I noticed your, your kick drum is clipped on this one. Any chance you could bounce me a fresh

Mike Nikou (01:01:46.181)

version maybe with a little less level or whatever it may be. So I'm looking for, guess at that stage, the technical issues that may be preventative through the mix. A lot of mixing initially is problem solving. It's finding issues. I may hear those issues in the rough mix. I might be like, you know, wow, that the low mids are completely out of control here.

and I can hear that it's coming from the bass guitar or I can hear that it's coming from those two synths that are panned out left and right. So a lot of those things I'm generally hearing pretty early on in the rough mix. And then it's a process of elimination. First thing I like to get my grouping and routing done, with the, you know, like the mixing checklist that I've got there, it actually tells people to sort of number their files and also

almost categorize them. like if it's drums, know, put drum slash snare, drum slash hi-hat, drum slash kick, whatever it may be. So that those are all grouped into, okay, that's all drums, that's percussion, that's acoustic guitars, that's electric guitars. I think that's a huge benefit, I think, you know, from a routing perspective as well, when you're setting up a mix, it would be exactly the same. I think if you were mixing on a massive analog console, you want to set

things up in sort of groups so that you're able to apply maybe your high pass filters to the group as a whole and things like that and shape things in that way. But yeah, that process of elimination is the first part, know, the setting up of the mix, making sure the levels, the whole gain staging thing is really important. Gain staging effects, you know, if you are using plugins, they react differently, dependent on, you know, how much level you're sending to it.

So I have my certain plugins are calibrated to a way where as long as I send them certain amount of gain, I know that they're going to be in the sweet spot as soon as I hit that level. So that's also part of, you know, setting up my template is setting it up. So it's more conducive to correct gain staging as well. I like to route things to group buses and then even to the point where there's an all music bus, there's an all vocals bus.

Mike Nikou (01:04:06.17)

before it hits the master so I can control the instrumental as well as all of the vocals before it hits the master and things like that so but that's definitely the I guess the core components of you know when I'm setting up a mix that that's really critical for me

Brian Funk (01:04:24.42)

Right, so you got to kind of make sure there's nothing too wrong, no problems, maybe clean things if necessary or get them done again. Organization, yeah, that sounds like a huge one. And you mentioned the checklist that you sent over. And I just want to re-mention which I'm sure I said in the intro.

Mike Nikou (01:04:29.562)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:04:47.936)

that you are providing a nice download for people of your mixing and mastering checklist for people. That would be before they send it off, but it's also just great stuff to think about for yourself before you move on to these new phases.

Mike Nikou (01:05:01.57)

It is, yeah. Definitely. It's very easy to, I think, forget about some of those important little tasks. You know, whether you're preparing all of your recorded tracks for mixing, or if you're preparing your final mixes for mastering. Because the other thing we're always looking to do is we're looking at making sure the final masters are presented in a format that is going to last for many years. So, you know, if people are consuming your music and

50 years, 100 years time, whatever it may be, hopefully they are. We want to have audio that is archived to a level where it's going to stand the test of time. So that's something that is really important. So those checklists can be really helpful and just reminding you, you know, to do certain things when you're finalizing your tracks. It can be very helpful, you know, even if you are doing it yourself, it's just a little reminders that can help you get organized.

Brian Funk (01:06:02.808)

Yeah, that's great to have just as almost something to look at every once in a while. So yeah, people can download that and keep that. And maybe if they decide to send you something or send something anywhere really, or just to yourself. there, yeah. Yeah, it's kind of just good advice really for where you are in the process.

Mike Nikou (01:06:21.284)

Yeah, they're very much universal.

Mike Nikou (01:06:30.561)

absolutely. Yeah, it should hopefully be a good help for people.

Brian Funk (01:06:36.292)

You mentioned we have a little checklist I'm kind of reading off here too that we were going to talk about. Some common issues you hear when you get productions. Things people run into. I have some of my own that I'm very aware of. I some reason like to let things build up in that 1 to 2k region. I don't know maybe my hearing is like weak there or something. I tend to emphasize that a lot when I'm mixing.

Mike Nikou (01:06:46.116)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:06:55.748)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:07:04.142)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:05.368)

What are some things like you tend to see that maybe we can learn to avoid if possible?

Mike Nikou (01:07:08.574)

yeah, look, I think, I think definitely overall, levels of each individual, you know, audio track, you know, I'm saying like the level of the vocal, making sure that it's, it's not distorting or clipping things like that. That's something that I, I wouldn't say I see it frequently, but when I do see that it's, you know, that's a huge problem. You know, if you're mixing a track and your vocal is clipped,

It's kind of past the point of no return. know, yes, you can use RX and try to de-clip things like that, but it's never going to be the same. So I'm always recommending people to get things as clean as you can to the point where it's not distorting. Crossfades, I think, is something that people can occasionally just miss that when they're bouncing their files out for mixing.

If they've comped a vocal and they've pieced together different parts of different performances, making sure you've got those clean crossfades so you're not hearing the microphone or the cut point where you've edited the audio. That's really important just to get a clean track. also something I do see semi-frequently is when people have recorded a vocal maybe on different days.

Like maybe they've recorded verse one and then come in the following day and recorded verse two or the chorus Have an understanding that your voice has a different timber a different a different sound each day you might wake up one morning and you're just slightly more congested than you were the day before and So then you've got a performance where you've got verse one has a particular sound Maybe you even moved the microphone in a slightly different position

and you've got a different tonality, you know, throughout the song. And that can kind of just subliminally create for the listener a bit of a strange experience. I mean, look, if we were in a situation where I have to fix that during the mix, I'll usually cut up the vocal and put it on different tracks, molt it out, apply different EQ to each verse, just so that we get a nice cohesive sound.

Mike Nikou (01:09:33.627)

That is one of the solutions for that sort of problem, but that can generally be avoided by setting your levels correctly when you're recording and recording everything on the same day. Like say if you're recording a lead vocal, try to get that track done the same day. It's fine if you're recording backing vocals and things like that later. You can stack them. It really doesn't matter. But I think when it's something like a lead vocal, take the time to

get a really cohesive, consistent recording and the results in the mix will be significantly better. That's something that I do see occasionally.

Brian Funk (01:10:14.639)

That is one of the hardest things to do to get the same sound on the next day or sometimes even just later in the day. You take a break and you come back. You might be able to get away with it maybe if you do the chorus and the verse separate, but yeah, if you're trying to... It's something about vocals that there's so many factors, the distance from the mic, the... Like you said...

Mike Nikou (01:10:24.58)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:10:41.722)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:10:43.693)

How are you feeling, your energy level? I agree with you on that. I really do try to make sure that that stuff happens in one shot as best I can.

Mike Nikou (01:10:46.842)

for sure.

Mike Nikou (01:10:54.03)

Hmm. Yeah. I mean, look, the best vocalists I've worked with, you know, when we've done recordings and we've done tracking sessions, they have a defined process. When they come into the studio to record, they have a certain drink that they bring with them. They might have like some warm tea or some lemon water or something. They will only have a certain number of sips before they start. Then they'll wait five minutes and then they'll do a test run to see how they're feeling. But it's a process. won't,

you they were not going to have a lunch break until, because if they eat a certain food, then they're going to have a different, their voice might have a different sound if they, drink a coffee or something. So, you know, the best vocalists, they are completely rigid in their process when it comes to tracking. It's like a, it's a defined process they do every time. It's, they have their own checklist, I guess you could say of how they prepare for a session and

you'd be surprised at how much you can get done once you are organized and you know how you feel and how you work and how to get the best out of yourself. You can come in and do a two or three hour session. You might even be able to track a few songs in that time if you have a process. So it's definitely like if you are a singer and you record your vocals a lot.

I definitely recommend taking the time to work out your process, what works best for you and gets you the results that you want, because that will really give you consistent results that you can repeat each time as well.

Brian Funk (01:12:31.073)

Yeah, yeah, I think that applies to in a lot of ways, just knowing when you're best, what time of day you're fresh and, you know, inspired and stuff. You've got one of the bullet points here is kind of brings us back to something we've been talking about a little bit with the way things have gotten produced and polished over the years. And we got into the live performance aspect.

Mike Nikou (01:12:36.664)

Mm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:00.149)

One of the dangers of that is you can polish away all of the nice stuff. In speaking of vocals, for instance, sometimes you go in there and you're cutting breaths and little things to clean it up. And sometimes there's a lot going on in those breaths. There's a lot of emotion in there.

Mike Nikou (01:13:19.354)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:13:22.445)

how do you approach that? This kind of keeping it, you want it to sound slick, clean or whatever the particular aesthetic is. there's some weird invisible line and it's like a blurry line, kind of like what you were saying too about with Green Day and like Smashing Pumpkins and the difference in recordings where, you know, as you start, as I'm adding like a couple extra guitar overdubs, it sounds really cool. It sounds really, and then like,

Mike Nikou (01:13:37.85)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:13:51.253)

all of sudden something is gone and it didn't happen after that last overdub but along the way. These things get lost, they kind of slip away or fade away or something. How do you approach all that?

Mike Nikou (01:14:04.216)

They do. There's definitely, I think a point you get to where it's almost like you're past the point of no return. Like you've edited something to the point where it's no longer what it was. And I think that's where it's worrying. I think where you look back on a track that you've been working on and you're like, well, this really doesn't sound like what I was doing. And particularly with vocals, if you do start going down that path of editing out breaths and all every little

intricacy of the human voice. It's very hard for the listener to relate to it because we don't sound like that. You know, when we're talking or when we're singing, we don't sound like that. The breaths in particular, that's something that I've really, um, I'm really focused on because that can be the, uh, the dictator of how something actually feels. It's very, I mean, if you listen to some of the most famous recordings,

There are breaths everywhere, huge ones, quiet ones, unnaturally sounding ones, but that's the, I guess that that's the nature of the sound. That's what makes it appealing to people because it's real. And they're like, well, that's a person. And I sound like that too. Or, or, you know, I have that tendency and I think people relate to things that are real. So I think when it comes to polishing your recordings, there's, there's a certain, I mean, it's

Genre dependent as well because sometimes it calls for a unusually polished sound. Sometimes it might be a certain pop track where we do edit out every single breath because we're going for a very specific, almost robotic sound. So that then becomes a creative choice. It's really, I think it really is something that's genre dependent. If you're recording a jazz track or a jazz vocalist, you're not going to touch those breaths.

or any of those little segues into the next vocal passage, whatever it is, you're not going to touch them. You're probably not even going to compress it too much because it's intended to be a highly dynamic recording where there are some super quiet parts and some, some louder parts. You know, maybe you just want to catch the peaks or whatnot, but even when I'm tracking vocals, I prefer to track with little to no compression because I want to capture the character. want

Mike Nikou (01:16:30.092)

as much dynamics as I can get if I'm tracking or recording vocals. It's easy to squash it down the track. We can do that later. That's not a problem. What we can't do is reintroduce dynamics if it's too squashed to begin with. So that's something that I would say to people, particularly at the recording stage, don't feel that you have to use compression to record. I'd rather you use zero compression and just make sure it's not

Brian Funk (01:16:46.592)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:16:59.556)

clipping. Maybe if you've got a compressor that's just grabbing the peaks, but even then it comes down to microphone technique because the best singers know when to pull back from the microphone. If they're belting something out, they know they've got to be further away, but that's a technique thing. That's something completely different. But as for the recording itself, I do think it's largely genre dependent.

And there are certain things, there are certain genres where, like I was saying, using jazz as the example, you just, can't mess with that in that, in that sense. It has to be as human as possible.

Brian Funk (01:17:32.778)

Hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:17:37.792)

Hmm. Right. There's definitely a lot of music you wouldn't want to edit, auto tune, quantize. And sometimes it's exactly what the song calls for too.

Mike Nikou (01:17:44.344)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:17:51.173)

Yeah, I mean, I hear a lot of modern tracks that are, you know, where the singer is absolutely phenomenal, but I can hear Melodyne. I can hear that it's been tuned and I'm like, you don't need it. You don't need it. It's you're already a great singer. Okay. There might be some passages where it's very slightly flat or sharp or whatever it may be. And if it bothers you clean it up, but you you listen to some of the greatest songs of all time and

Brian Funk (01:18:03.403)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:18:19.47)

done by great singers and there's flat notes everywhere. There are sharp notes here and there. And part of that, it's the, I think that's the character of the music. I think even when it is a pop recording, you can sometimes hear where, you know, the singer has, has maybe dropped a little flat in verse two as opposed to verse one. But I think that's what we relate to. You know, as humans, we're listening to music, we're looking for things that we can relate to. And I think those

the more we keep the human element in there. you know, that's really, I think that's what we all want to hear. And that's where I think, you know, AI and that side of things is never really going to be able to, to replicate that. It can't decide whether or not, whether or not something sounds good or bad. can't discern, you know, it can give you a certain sound, but it can't, you know,

make a decision as to whether or not something should be loud or quiet or whatever it may be. think that's where, you know, a lot of people are really concerned about AI and where it's going, but I don't think it's any different to any other tool that's come out in music over the years. You know, people were worried that Pro Tools was going to completely kill off hardware and analog equipment. It's completely not the case.

people still use all of that hardware frequently. So it's not something that's ever going to disappear. think it's just, it's a new technology that's there for people to utilize. And you know, think if it gets people creative, great, but it's never going to be able to do what a human can do as such. It's kind of like, I don't know, I like to use the analogy of

frozen pizza versus a restaurant pizza. I mean, yeah, I mean, frozen pizza, it's still pizza. You can put it in the oven and heat it up and it's still pizza, but it will never be what a restaurant pizza is. that it just, you always like to use the food analogy sometimes I think with, with music and production, like the chef thing. I think there are some very, some strong parallels there. but yeah, a lot of people are worried about the whole AI.

Brian Funk (01:20:25.899)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:20:30.025)

Yeah, a lot of...

Brian Funk (01:20:35.883)

Mm-hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:20:38.776)

side of things. And I really just think it's a new tool where learning what, where, where its place is going to be. You know, I'm hearing that they're going to be changing the way monetization works for AI stuff that's being released on streaming platforms. They're going to be demonetizing a lot of that stuff. think where it's maybe going to be lucrative in the future is artists licensing their likeness. where, you know,

like big company like Warner Brothers or whatever might be able to hire Taylor Swift's likeness to be on a song that she never even has to actually perform in. She never has to go into the studio to learn the song or sing it. They'll just, you know, pay for her likeness and she'll get the royalties. I think that's where I can see that becoming a big avenue for artists down the track, particularly for artists that have gained a certain level.

you know, of popularity, where they're able to monetize their likeness, that I really, genuinely believe that will become a significant income source for those artists that, you know, are able to do that.

Brian Funk (01:21:52.702)

Yeah, that's an interesting angle. That's for sure. I think you have a point though, with a lot of that human stuff that it can analyze and probably through data and probability figure out where those flat notes should be and all, but it doesn't make the decision because it sounds good or it feels good.

Mike Nikou (01:22:04.218)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:22:16.538)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:22:22.241)

And that's a lot, I think, where those decisions happen. even guitar is, I think, a nice example where you've got the frets, right? So you can play the notes, but there's a lot of stuff happening when you bend that string, even just a little, or just the vibrato you add to it. You can come out of tune and create tension. And even if, I still think even if this

gets so good, it's like making amazing music that people want to hear. It's maybe like the restaurant analogy, right? Like I could go to the Michelin star chef restaurant and get my spaghetti and meatballs or whatever, but there's still something special about mom's spaghetti and meatballs. You know, the ones that your mom makes or your wife or your best friend is a great chef.

Mike Nikou (01:23:06.02)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:23:20.245)

or just the way the guy you know down the street makes barbecue food in his way. I think we'll still long for that. And I'm hoping anyway. There's something just really nice about real people putting their effort into it.

things have gotten so overblown and produced and it's amazing what we can do. Like you said, live shows, the lights are in sync and everything, but it's cool to just watch, you know, a couple of teenagers banging around and do something real, regardless of how good it is. Just the, there's something special about that or, or somebody picking up an actual camera when you could.

Mike Nikou (01:23:47.258)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:24:11.759)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:24:12.737)

You have a phone that probably has better quality than some of these old cameras even, but that deliberate act of taking the picture with the camera and there's nothing, no other focus. And you're working to find what's beautiful in that moment with the limited amount of film you have. You're making those choices and decisions. I'm hoping all of this makes us appreciate that.

Mike Nikou (01:24:33.946)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:24:37.708)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:24:41.447)

aspect of it. It's happening to me I'm noticing. I'm really seeing that in the stuff I'm enjoying lately that I'm noticing the effort or the thought behind it or something, the human. I like humans, I guess.

Mike Nikou (01:24:59.076)

Yeah. And I think it's all tied to our emotional experience. You know, you talk about, you know, you might prefer, know, your mom's spaghetti over the fancy restaurant because it's tied to our human emotional experience. made us feel a certain way. And yes, you know, I mean, the restaurant might be technically absolutely superior in every way, but it's not tied. We don't have any ties to it. We don't have any,

connection, we don't have any emotion attached to it. And that's where I think there, you know, it's similar with music. Yeah, you can have the most perfect sounding track, whatever it may be. But what is our, what is our emotional connection to it? What does it mean to us as a human? And I think that's where, you know, like you were saying, I just don't see how AI or anything like that is ever going to be able to replicate the experience.

and recreate how we feel when we experience the real deal or whatever it may be.

Brian Funk (01:26:05.184)

Yeah, all of this stuff, like, you can still appreciate those five-star Michelin chef spaghetti meatballs, right? It's not exclusive one or the other. And even, you know, just getting back to how we connected that Midnight Mystery Club worked with you and recommended you and that was, cool. Like, you know, I'm already like into what they're doing. And now let me...

get deeper and learn more about like who they worked with. the fact that you can get something mastered online, AI or whatever. There's a lot of ways you can do that. But I kind of like knowing that someone took the time with it and thought about it. And maybe somebody that I care about or that I appreciate their work with. And it went through their lens and here it is now through that journey. This

Mike Nikou (01:26:57.764)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:27:05.178)

song has now gone on its own life, know, kind of like, almost like a child that you release into the world and then, you know, went through you, you mixed, you mastered it, now it's back and it's all grown up. know, there's something cool about that.

Mike Nikou (01:27:13.924)

Yeah, exactly.

Mike Nikou (01:27:20.164)

Definitely. mean, you you mentioned like the online mastering side of things. It's really interesting because online mastering cannot determine if the track you're uploading has already been mastered. So it may already be maxed out. It may be limited. There may even be distortion artifacts from the fact that it's been squashed already. It's generally not able to discern whether or not it can apply its mastering effects. Like it just...

analyzes the track and applies the effect and provides it back to you, but it can't discern whether or not it actually needs mastering. And I think that's one of the key things about mastering. Sometimes it's what you don't do as opposed to what you do. I think a lot of people make the mistake that thinking that mastering is like the magic bullet. Like that's where

you know, it's going to fix all of the problems in my mix and it's going to sound loud and it's going to sound amazing when I upload it to Spotify. And that's really, it's not the case. Mastering is really, it's the final check, I guess you could say. It's we're making sure it's going to be compliant and it's at a level where it's going to be fine for long-term, even archival audio storage and whatever it may be. But really it's

It's not a magic bullet, it's just the final check. And I think that's where the automated mastering and the online mastering, I'm not sure that it's really able to discern in that way, because it's not going to give you a track that is untouched. The online mastering would not say, hey, your mix is 100 % fine, you don't need to do anything. It wouldn't do that. And I think that's where...

Brian Funk (01:29:04.266)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (01:29:08.826)

once again, we get back to the human aspect and having go through someone's lens and their process and their systems. I think that's really where, you know, when you partner yourself with a mixing or mastering engineer, those are the generally the reasons, you know, you should be looking for what, what is their process? Um, what, what do they do? Um, that's, you know, I think that's a big part of it.

Brian Funk (01:29:36.949)

Yeah. I like someone that is okay with saying, I didn't really need to do much to this. know, that's a great perspective to get. I still think it's worth the money, the cost for their services to, you know, listen to it and say, you know what? It doesn't really need too much. I'm going to do this and that. And that's going to be it. I don't think...

Mike Nikou (01:29:45.486)

Yeah, it's fantastic.

Brian Funk (01:30:03.818)

you're paying somebody because of how much they did necessarily.

Mike Nikou (01:30:07.684)

Hmm. Yeah, not at all. It's, it really is. It's about the process. And I think, yeah, but I think to even get, you know, like say if you've mixed your own track and you've sent it off to a mastering engineer and they've said, Hey, you know, your mix is phenomenal. I really didn't need to do much at all. Here's your masters. they're already at an extremely high level. You know, I've just fixed this or that, and I've made sure they're compliant with, with this.

Brian Funk (01:30:13.938)

It's not per knob tweak.

Mike Nikou (01:30:36.332)

upload format, whatever it may be. I think that would be extremely gratifying for someone that has mixed their own music and, you know, to have a mastering engineer look at it and say, you know what, you, you did a fantastic job. you get the green tick. You're ready to, you're ready to upload. So I think even just, like you said, going through that process is, yeah, that could be extremely gratifying for, for an artist to, get that.

Brian Funk (01:31:00.96)

My band went to the mastering of our album and sat with him and he did an awesome job. He's like turning knobs. I can't even really tell if it's even moving, but he's hearing it. And it was really nice to just ask him, what did you see with the mix that I gave you? where...

Mike Nikou (01:31:15.578)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:31:24.985)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:31:29.664)

Did you need to do anything? And just that feedback alone was so valuable just to hear like, yeah, this part here, you know, I wanted this little sibilant in the vocal. So I'm trying to work with that. It was really helpful just for the future too, just to get some, set of ears, trained ears.

Mike Nikou (01:31:47.618)

Yeah, absolutely.

There are a lot of mastering engineers that just won't even allow the artist to see anything of what they do. They won't provide any feedback. They'll just give you the masters and say, here's your masters. Um, I'm a big fan of, you know, providing feedback and saying, Hey, look, next, next time you do a mix, I'd love to hear you try X, Y, and Z. I think, you know, you can achieve, you know, a significantly better result by doing this or that next time you record.

And, you know, I've helped a number of artists from, know, they've gone from almost like a, a semi beginner stage to a level where they're mixing and sometimes even mastering their own music because they've gone through that learning phase. And I'm always happy to give people feedback and help them learn about, you know, why we do certain things. cause that incrementally helps them over the years refine their craft.

And it also helps them articulate what they're trying to do as an artist. think sometimes that can be a big block, a blocking thing for people. Like if you don't know how to do something, but you know what you want to do, that's really frustrating for an artist. So I think the more you can learn and those, like I said, those incremental learns throughout the process. And then you look back after a certain number of years and you're like, wow, I've come so far with my music. So

That's something that I'm always conscious of and I'm always happy to answer people's questions about the process and why I do a certain thing. I think it's great for artists to want to learn that. Not everyone does. Some people just don't want to know about it. They're just like, hey, here's the track, work your magic and just send me the files. I don't really want to know anything about the process, but everyone's different.

Brian Funk (01:33:45.908)

Yeah, I haven't found that either that to be anything that takes away too. It makes me want to work with those people more. It makes me trust them more. It makes me just enjoy what they're doing. So I don't know the need to hide it.

Mike Nikou (01:34:02.555)

I think mastering has always had that rep... Yeah, and I think mastering has always had that reputation of being like a bit of a mysterious dark art. It's totally not that at all. It's, you know, like I said, I love sharing feedback with people to educate them on the process and what's involved and how they can better their own recordings and productions down the track. I'm a big fan of that. Whereas like I said, there are some...

Brian Funk (01:34:10.228)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (01:34:32.43)

mastering engineers that it's a closed door, it's a closed book, they like to maintain the mystery. And I think that's changed a lot over the years, I think with the transparency of way the music industry works now with mastering engineers sharing their process, sometimes even, you know, they'll do like a live feed on YouTube and they'll show people, you know, roughly what they do when they're mastering. So I think the...

the secrecy has been removed. The tools are readily available for people. And I do feel that a lot of people are more going down the lines of partnering themselves with someone they can trust and they enjoy working with, and they enjoy that interaction and the process of working with that particular engineer.

Brian Funk (01:35:20.863)

Yeah, it is. It's one of the nice things about the development of our world is this access to information and seeing what people are doing. And hopefully, like you said, it allows more people to get in and be part of it.

Mike Nikou (01:35:31.706)

Hmm.

Mike Nikou (01:35:37.687)

Absolutely.

Brian Funk (01:35:40.784)

So we've been going a while, huh? It went fast for me. I appreciate your time. We'll wrap this up. But I want to just thank you very much for taking the time here and encourage everybody to check out what you're Mike, Nico, so we got mnproductions.com.au is the website, which all this will be in the show notes.

Mike Nikou (01:35:44.344)

Yeah, time flies, hey? Yeah, it did go fast.

Mike Nikou (01:36:08.27)

That's right, Brian.

Brian Funk (01:36:10.175)

Um, on Instagram, I think is a great way to find you because you'll pop up with some nice, very poignant and practical pieces of wisdom and advice. Um, that I think can help lots of people. It's definitely helped me. Um, I really love what you're doing.

Mike Nikou (01:36:27.716)

Yeah. Instagram. Thanks, Brian. I really appreciate it. yeah, people can check it out on Instagram. I'm also on TikTok at the same address at mcnixpro, M-I-C-N-I-X-P-R-O. yeah, whichever way people like to consume their media, it's on all of the, it's usually the same sort of posts will be sent out through various platforms. think it's on like the...

Brian Funk (01:36:47.337)

Yeah.

Mike Nikou (01:36:57.112)

YouTube shorts as well. but yeah, thank you so much. It's been really great to chat today and I really appreciate you having me.

Brian Funk (01:37:00.361)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:37:07.699)

Yeah, and thanks for supplying the download. You've got the mastering checklist, the mixing checklist, and some slate VMR presets. That's virtual mix room, right? I don't have that, virtual.

Mike Nikou (01:37:19.118)

Yeah, Slate Virtual... No, that's cool. It's a Slate Virtual Mix Rack. So it's basically like an interchangeable mix rack where you can plug in different modules within the mix rack. So you can put like a, you know, console, emulator, EQ, compressor, and you can interchange all of the modules. I've got a few starting points there that people can use. It's not so much to apply a particular sound to something.

Brian Funk (01:37:26.132)

Mixerack.

Mike Nikou (01:37:48.3)

It's not so much, I guess, like a magic bullet as such. It's more of a bit of a starting point where, you know, people can work with, you know, if they are mixing their own tracks or experimenting with sounds, you know, some specific presets for like drums and things like that. So, you know, I hope people will find some sort of use for that as well.

Brian Funk (01:37:51.965)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:38:07.997)

Yeah, that's very nice and generous of you. And we'll put that link in the show notes as well as all of the other ones there for people to find.

Mike Nikou (01:38:16.302)

I appreciate that, Brian.

Brian Funk (01:38:18.559)

Well, thanks for being here and thank you everyone for listening. You guys have a great day.

Mike Nikou (01:38:22.446)

Thank you. Appreciate it. Take care and have a great day.

This video from our Music Production Club Live Meeting: Learn. Ask. Do: Ableton’s Modulators

• Learn - Music Production skills and techniques with me, Ableton Certified Trainer and Berklee Online Instructor, Brian Funk.

• Ask - Participate in the discussion and ask questions.

• Do - Apply the lesson in a short activity. Get feedback and ask follow-up questions.

Join the Music Production Club and attend our meetings live.

Your Music Production Club membership gives you access to:

• My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

• The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

• Live Meetings Over Zoom - Meet with me and the MPC community online! Make music together, share tips and techniques, and give and receive feedback on your music.

• Music Production Club Exclusives - Ableton Live Packs, Templates, Samples, Presets, and more that are only available to members of the MPC.

• Educational Materials - My Video Course, Books, and Documents to help you level up your music.

• Our Online Community - Share your music with and get support from our thriving Discord community. and Monthly Live Meetings over Zoom.

• Bonus Materials - Free stuff from my store as well as gifts from some musical friends!

• Special Offers - MPC members get 50% off at my store and special discounts from music companies.
  

This is a Music Production Club Live Meeting. Learn. Ask questions. Do what you learned! Learn about a device or technique from Ableton Certified Trainer, Brian Funk. Ask questions along the way. Then take a few minutes to experiment with what you have learned. After that, we can hear what you made and answer any questions that may have come up along the way!

Your Music Production Club membership gives you access to:

• My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

• The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

• Live Meetings Over Zoom - Meet with me and the MPC community online! Make music together, share tips and techniques, and give and receive feedback on your music.

• Music Production Club Exclusives - Ableton Live Packs, Templates, Samples, Presets, and more that are only available to members of the MPC.

• Educational Materials - My Video Course, Books, and Documents to help you level up your music.

• Our Online Community - Share your music with and get support from our thriving Discord community. and Monthly Live Meetings over Zoom.

• Bonus Materials - Free stuff from my store as well as gifts from some musical friends!

• Special Offers - MPC members get 50% off at my store and special discounts from music companies.
  

Kevin and I spoke in depth about the art and magic of songwriting , collaborating, and touching peoples’ lives with music. We discussed the future of AI music and how his company Soundbreak is helping artists license their musical styles for generative AI music. 

This episode is dedicated to (not sponsored by!) Darwin Audio and his awesome vintage soda/beer can microphones: https://darwinaudio.net

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Kevin Griffin's Website - https://www.kevingriffinmusic.com

• Soundbreak AI - https://www.soundbreak.ai

• Better Than Ezra - https://www.betterthanezra.com

• Kevin's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kevinmgriffin/

• SoundBreak AI's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/soundbreak.ai/

• Better Than Ezra's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/betterthanezra/

• The Greatest Song by Kevin Griffin - https://amzn.to/4vqYERG

• Do Schools Kill Creativity by Sir Ken Robinson - https://www.ted.com/talks/sir_ken_robinson_do_schools_kill_creativity

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:00.534)

Welcome to the show, Kevin. Nice to see you today.

Kevin Griffin (00:06.091)

Thank you brother, I'm glad to be here on this beautiful spring day.

Brian Funk (00:11.808)

Yeah, as I was telling you before, Better Than Ezra is definitely a household name around here. Part of my growing up in high school is when that song came out, so we all knew it. And personally, I think the 90s was one of the great musical decades, and to have a song be that popular at that time is a real statement to you as an artist, to the band. And thanks for making cool stuff.

Kevin Griffin (00:39.955)

Well, thank you brother and your opinion it matters highly, know, and I'm a fan of what you do as well. Yeah, you know, when we were in the 90s making the music, you always think that this will never sound dated or of an era. And then time goes by and I look back at it now and I look when I listen to our albums or maybe lithium, you know, on Sirius XM, I'm like.

It has a sound. It was a sound of bands, maybe a three-piece, we were a three-piece, a four-piece, in a studio making music.

Sometimes there's a click track, others not, but very little post editing because it really wasn't possible. We were still in the world of analog recording and it had a sound. There was that compression that was...

we were using and things just had the sound. And the good news is that it aged really well, I think. It sounds really refreshing and it's funny, know, a lot of my time is spent writing with young bands and young artists. And so many of them are trying to, I think they're kind of scared when they're working with me. They want to say, we want a 90 sound, you know, but they don't even know how to articulate it sometimes, but I can tell like, oh, you want this kind of sound. And I was just working with a kid who just got signed

Warner Records and he said, kind of want to do something that feels like this and he pulled up circles by soul coughing. And I'm like, I can do that in my sleep. Just that sound, so thank you. It was such a cool time and I'm happy to be on here and we can talk about that and other things as well.

Brian Funk (02:20.061)

It's my wheelhouse.

Brian Funk (02:31.744)

I guess part of what happened in the nineties is we had the eighties and like drum machines and synthesizers and know, gated reverbs on snare drums and all this over the top production. And then there was a pushback of, Hey, you know, let's dial it back a little more authentic to what the band actually sounds like. And I guess that that holds up because that's what a band sounds like. It doesn't have all those maybe

kind of time stamped production techniques on it.

Kevin Griffin (03:03.729)

Yeah, mean, you're absolutely right. The 80s, whether it was more like New Wave, like...

well, just new wave artists, there was that gated reverb, whether it was in pop like Genesis or it was a lot of the British bands, know, Depeche Mode and stuff like that. It was so synth heavy, even going back to the early 80s with Thomas Dolby. But, or the big rock bands at the time, I those Foreigner, Journey, mean, was so, in Mut Lang, it was so incredibly produced that it was daunting, you know, because I couldn't sing

those notes. We didn't have that production. So I think coming out of the college radio scene was a reaction to it and it came out with bands like R.A.M. and even though there was some gated reverb, know, snare, like on the Murmur record, but then bands like the Pixies and stuff. And then you get into the early 90s where it's a complete

turning of the back on over production. And when we were making albums, was like, we were really overt as like, if we had any BVs, they had to be buried. Anything that smacked of over production was really repellent. And it needed to feel really raw and immediate and maybe a refutation, is that a word? Of what...

we had grown up listening to. And maybe it was probably because we didn't like it stylistically. Though still respected it, but honestly, we didn't have the ability to do it. So for me, was like when bands like REM and Pixies and the Smiths that were really influencing me came along, I was like, my God, I can make this kind of music and I can sing these kind of songs. And that was really exciting because it really felt hopeless for a

Kevin Griffin (05:15.027)

time.

Brian Funk (05:16.908)

Yeah, well, growing up for me in the 80s, I was born 1980, and I mean, all of those bands, they seem so larger than life. It never occurred to me that I could play music if I got a guitar until like the 90s came along. And then it was like, hey, that's not that hard. It's not finger tapping and crazy solos. And like you said, it was like accessible. Like we could play power chords.

Kevin Griffin (05:41.097)

It was really, it's really, you could play it. You could play it and look, don't get me wrong.

I'm a massive 80s fan, you know, and I love that. I love that music, whether it is crazy produced stuff that, know, Mutt Lang did with with Def Leppard, you know, and all that kind of stuff. But my heart is really in the prior years with maybe a tradition of like Creedence Clearwater, you know, and those bands that were more simple, just just and Tom Petty, you know, just great songwriting, but it's stripped down.

Brian Funk (05:50.748)

I love it too, yeah.

Kevin Griffin (06:17.858)

Stuff that for me, like you said, I didn't have to have the talent on guitar like Eddie Van Halen and the finger tapping and stuff. And it felt really accessible. And honestly, know, I very early on, like Good was really an attempt to write a song that was the same four chords, just using dynamics. That song was built on a DNA of a Dylan song meets a Pixie song. Let's use distortion.

loud, quiet, loud to make those segues and those transitions between parts. And man, I tell you, I love...

I love that in my own small way for kids of a certain generation, good is one of those songs you had to learn in your first band because it was so easy and it sounded so great with minimal talent or minimal proficiency on your, not talent, but minimal proficiency on your instrument. And then you throw it into C7 and suddenly it sounded like 90s rock. It's G major, D major, E minor, C major seven.

and then suddenly you were making you had to have the evil chord Brian there had to be an evil chord in the C major 7 added the menacing evil that I was looking for

Brian Funk (07:32.8)

Yeah, something a little menacing.

Brian Funk (07:41.708)

Yeah, I can remember realizing that chord actually being like, ooh, that's like a little out of the key kind of. cause that bass line, I mean, the first time I think I picked up a bass, that was like one of the go-to bass lines to play of the day. You know, you had like, maybe like long view by green day and, violent femmes, a flister in the sun.

Kevin Griffin (07:49.622)

Ugh. I didn't even know where I got it.

Kevin Griffin (08:03.42)

Yeah, it's crazy, you know.

You know, those classic records and you know, Tom, he was playing a Spectre bass and that Spectre was the sound of the 80s and the 90s. It just has such a sound to it. You know, simplicity, the hardest thing to do is write a convincing song that's just super simple. And especially as you get older, you're always wanting to impress yourself and not repeat yourself. So keeping it simple. mean, going back to Tom Petty, he was the master throughout his career of doing

deceptively simple stuff but it's just brilliant and that's kind of where I'm always trying to get to cut away the fat and get to what really matters with this song or the production.

Brian Funk (08:51.636)

I like that you bring that up because this is something I deal with almost every time I try to put a song together. There's the part of me that wants to be a little clever, have something unusual happen, you know, maybe to prove to myself that I've been playing music for all these years or whatever it is. But yeah, you want something in there, but it's when I'm thinking that way that nothing happens. But when I just decide to let it be simple, not worry about that stuff.

Kevin Griffin (09:08.245)

Right.

Brian Funk (09:21.632)

then things can come together. Most of my favorite songs are relatively simple. Maybe there's a little twist here or there. But it's kind of tricky to find that spot that you're mentioning. And something I wanted to ask you about songwriting too is just finding that zone where... Because you have to be somewhat judgmental to what you're doing, but you also have to kind of open up and be vulnerable.

Kevin Griffin (09:47.997)

of this year.

Brian Funk (09:51.109)

find what's going on. It can be a hard place to find. It's almost two places at once.

Kevin Griffin (09:55.635)

It, you know, early, early on writing, you know, my first song I recorded, was 12, I was in a band called Aces Up, a very junior high band name, and we won a songwriting contest.

a band, battle of the bands for a country music station in Monroe, Louisiana and we won it and we got to record a 45 and on Side A was a song I wrote with my guitar teacher called Seek, Find, Destroy about aliens of course coming to the planet.

Brian Funk (10:30.444)

Nice. Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (10:30.62)

I was ahead of the curve, Brian. And then this B-side was a cover of Cold Gin by Kiss. But the point is, I started off, but then I kind of languished, and then the real songwriting happened with Better Than Ezra. when you start off, you're not trying to outdo your old work because you don't have any old work. So those songs were just simple because that's all I knew. I think later I got

to where I was like okay have I done this before have I done this chord progression is this a evolution for me as a songwriter is this cool you know and all those questions make you second-guess for me the challenge is I don't want to get wrapped up and bogged down by second-guessing myself but before the idea even comes one thing that really helped me is you know

five years after our debut album came out nationally, that's when I first started co-writing. And co-writing allowed me to, all those considerations, I just left them behind. And suddenly when I was co-writing, I was just...

writing with somebody for the first time and it was this freeing experience of let's just write the best song I don't really know much about you let's just write this great song with no other considerations and suddenly it re and not only made me a really good co-writer but it reinvigorated my own writing to where I was reminded because I was having success as a co-writer I was like shit quit overthinking it just have fun and just dumb it down and just and

Brian Funk (12:06.188)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (12:17.662)

And when I say dumb it down, it doesn't mean make it less than, but just get rid of the BS and just judicious editing. So I'm constantly, I would say...

That was for me, working with other people has been the key for me to continue to keep learning new tricks, because I'm always working with different people. And a lot of times they're younger than me, and that bag of tricks, they grew up listening to, maybe they grew up as an emo kid, maybe they grew up listening to bands that, know, bedroom pop or whatever. And so I'm constantly picking up new tricks, new corporate records.

you know, lyrics fresh. And so, yeah, collaboration keeps me, to your point, keeps me keeping it simple and keeping my eye on the prize, which is just, you know, I've written so many, I've written those songs that have the time signature changes and the modulations, and nobody likes those. Well, you know, a small group does, but they're always like,

Brian Funk (13:24.266)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (13:30.056)

What about this song with two chords about your dog? I'm like, not that song, but yeah.

Brian Funk (13:36.31)

Hmm.

Yeah, the intellectual stuff. And half the time it goes unnoticed. Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (13:40.873)

Yeah, which is great and I love it. But yeah, it's just about getting to that essence and what really just hits you in the gut. And when I can lose all those considerations like I mentioned, and then I'm riding from a position of just what feels good right then. And that's when I'm way more liable to catch that.

Brian Funk (13:46.124)

.

Kevin Griffin (14:08.582)

crazy song that's floating around in the room. know, I have a little piece of paper on my monitor of my studio that says the song is always there because I really believe that. And if I can be in tune enough to get that song that day, then...

to win. And then there are those people like Paul McCartney whose their antenna is just better than all of ours. know, they're going to get that, they're going to find that inspiration in the room way more often than the rest of us. But the goal is just to keep trying.

Brian Funk (14:32.364)

you

Brian Funk (14:40.748)

I felt like that too, that it's almost like fishing or something or swinging a net around in the air and trying to catch them before they get away. And the thing that lets them get away is the second guessing. It's the judging it before it's even had a chance to become anything.

Kevin Griffin (14:46.782)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (14:59.646)

It's funny, you're right. And there's some writers I work with here in Nashville. They're so damn talented. But I don't collaborate with them as much anymore because they're so full of self-doubt and second guessing and full of wanting to talk about the futility of the music business before we even write a song that I'm just defeated by the time.

You finally say 45 minutes into the session, well, let's write a song, even though it's pointless. You know what I mean? So I'm just, I just, the more I can just be playful and full of wonder about writing it and just like saying, fuck, why wouldn't we do this? Let's just do it. Then it gets really fun. And that's when you just get lightning in a bottle.

Brian Funk (15:50.068)

Yeah, I like that and collaborating has been a huge help. The band I play in right now is a three-piece band and we don't bring songs to the band. We just play and see what comes out and you blabber lyrics and sometimes you say something or someone else says something or they thought you said this and all this weird interaction happens. And the goal has become so much more. We just want to keep playing. We just want to play. So we need something and

Kevin Griffin (15:53.983)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (16:06.334)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:18.75)

If it's an idea I love and someone else doesn't like or whatever, who cares? Fine, move on. Nothing's precious. The goal is the long game of playing together, not I need this guitar part in a song.

Kevin Griffin (16:31.712)

it is the long game and I say that a lot when I talk about songwriting is that I'm really at the point, maybe there was a time where I was more protective about my songwriting, but now I'm just like.

Who am I writing with today? Is it one person or am I writing with the whole band? And some people, there would be a time where I'd be like, wait, I'm writing with the five piece, there's gonna be six people in the room. Why am I doing it? I'm splitting a song six ways. But now I'm just like, bring it, man, because let's write a great song together and it's the long game. The biggest dividends in a music career are...

working with people that you love over and over again, know, repeat business. And I'd rather have a hit that was a six-way split, or these days in the pop world, it could be a 20-way split, you know, and work with them again and have a hit to my name as opposed to, you know, like, just being me or me and another person, and that song just sits on a hard drive somewhere because it's not as good as it could have been, you know?

Brian Funk (17:45.6)

Right. That's, guess, ego, right? Letting go of that. It's so important.

Kevin Griffin (17:49.473)

Yeah, is ego and getting ego as a friend said to me, my ego is not my amigo.

Brian Funk (18:01.1)

There's a song in there.

Kevin Griffin (18:02.462)

You know, that should be in my studio too. You know, just lose the ego, man. And that's when stuff gets really fun.

Brian Funk (18:09.772)

So you make me think of, I wrote this down, I guess it's the, I don't know if it's forward, but in the beginning of your book, the book is The Greatest Song, which I just started listening to, so I'm already like, okay, cool, I'm gonna like this. Yeah, yeah, because I saw you were reading it, so was like, yeah, I wanna hear you tell me the story.

Kevin Griffin (18:26.144)

good, you got the audio book.

Kevin Griffin (18:34.126)

dude, I had so much fun making it. I did that with a guy who is a great producer of audiobooks and it's Mark. god, I'm spacing. I'll get the name. It'll be in the credits. And he did a great job with all the foley, all the sound effects. There's original songs. And then there's my...

accents that I used for the different characters. I don't know if you've gotten to those yet. I kept asking him, I was like, am I gonna get canceled for any of these accents that I'm doing? Am I clueless and being really offensive? And he's like, no, it sounds great, go, go.

Brian Funk (19:17.516)

Yeah, right. I guess you had to think about that. But you got the Picasso quote about all children are artists and something they got as the struggle is staying an artist or something along those lines.

Kevin Griffin (19:20.294)

sorry, but you were saying, there's, beginning of the book.

Kevin Griffin (19:26.485)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (19:30.91)

Yeah, we're all born artists. The challenge is how do you stay an artist as you get older? Or put another way, how do you grow into your creativity as opposed to out of it? You know?

Brian Funk (19:42.592)

Yeah, I find that childlike wonder is the best place for me to be making music. And I don't think I mentioned it, Steve, but I teach high school English. That's my grown up job here.

Kevin Griffin (19:56.146)

I'm an English major from LSU at LSU. Go Tigers. I have such high respect for you. Good for you being a teacher.

Brian Funk (19:59.508)

Okay, nice. Very good.

Brian Funk (20:06.268)

thank you. We're on break now, so it's great. now we just took a break.

Kevin Griffin (20:10.496)

I'm so happy there's no school, no work tomorrow, Good Friday. Did I just ruin the impression that this was a brand new? I can say that it's... Okay, good. You can edit that out.

Brian Funk (20:15.061)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (20:22.066)

No, it'll be relatively new. That's fine. These are evergreen things, right? But I was in the ninth grade when I started playing guitar and I see a lot of kids that have already decided, I can't do this. I'm not this kind of person. I'm not artistic. I'm not that. Like they already kind of let go of that. And this year,

for the first time I've taught a few middle school classes and they're a little bit younger and they're a lot more willing to just try it and just play with it and draw. Yeah, can we draw pictures today? Okay, cool. Not where the high school kids say, I don't know how to draw. I'm not good at drawing. It's funny how, and it's probably school that does it, but somewhere along the way it gets kind of beaten out of you. it's that same thing we were talking about before. Is this song complicated enough and intelligent enough?

Kevin Griffin (21:18.377)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (21:19.05)

then we think ourselves out of the fun of actually making it. Great quote to open the book with.

Kevin Griffin (21:23.04)

Well, there's a great TED Talk. If you get nothing from listening to this today.

watch Sir Ken Robinson or Sir Kenneth Robinson's talk, it's his TED Talk. It's one of the most streamed TED Talks ever. He was a educator who passed away maybe five or six years ago. And the whole talk is about how our education system beats creativity out of you. And he said, and I love this and I use it in the book,

that you'll never come up with anything truly groundbreaking unless you're prepared to fail, that the people I know who are the most successful are, I call it dare to be stupid, know, just lose the filter and just throw crazy ideas out there and don't second guess yourself. That's when you get the great ideas. That's when you get hit songs. And some of the biggest songwriters I worked with in Nashville, they don't have a filter, man. They're lyrically, musically,

Brian Funk (22:16.684)

Weirdo.

Kevin Griffin (22:33.154)

Basically, the top line, they're just throwing shit out there without any care in the world. And a lot of it is just junk. And then suddenly you're like, wait, what did you just say? Heavy metal, she was a heavy metal pedal steel player. I'll never forget when JT Harding, who's a successful songwriter, said that to me in a song. We were writing a country pitch.

But yeah, just keeping that childlike wonder is key. And I'm always just coming back to that when I'm writing. I'm just like, what is silly? What is fun? And it just serves, it continues to serve me well. And also, I think there's a real gift we have as songwriters that we get. And we're able to see...

at a very young age, you're writing songs, how an idea is ephemeral and...

intangible as a song, just an idea, a melody you're singing, how that can turn into, go from an idea, just a hook into a song, and then the song can become a song your band plays, and then that can become a recording, and then that can become a single, and that can become a hit single, and then suddenly it can be a thing that started in your bedroom as this silly little idea, it could change your life, and not only change your life, but

but a lot of people's lives. as songwriters, we get to see that all the time. So being a songwriter has served me so well in my life because I do, whether it's starting a music festival in Franklin or doing other business things or doing an AI music platform, I'm like, I know that if I have a great idea, if I just don't quit and I just keep doing the next best thing,

Kevin Griffin (24:35.006)

I'll get there. And songs writing has proven that to me.

Brian Funk (24:40.876)

Sure, because you're pulling it out of thin air. It didn't exist. And it's a magic trick pretty much.

Kevin Griffin (24:43.988)

Yeah, you know, and it is, it's crazy. It's a magic trick and it's awesome. I don't get tired of it, man. Other people I know who are my age are all talking about retiring and I'm like.

Kidding me? This is my dream. This is the dream I dreamed of when I was 11. I'm getting to do this fucking stupid thing I get to do. It's awesome. Even playing live.

Brian Funk (25:14.06)

Let me ask you about those moments. If you take a song like Good or even some of the other singles and hits you guys had, are you aware of it? You're in the studio, you're writing it maybe with the band. Are you guys like, this is going to be the one, we've got something here. How does that feel?

Kevin Griffin (25:40.541)

You know, there are certain songs that the minute... Well, there's a lot of... There are certain songs when you write them, you're like, my God, this is a hit course. This song is by all definitions, the boxes you need to check, it's a hit. We knew with, with Good, that was written, those, the wah-ah lyrics aren't even the finished lyrics. That, we played it the...

two days or the night that I played it for the band the first time. And we were like, let's just play it. And I'll just mumble. I've always had a great propensity to make up gibberish lyrics as I go along. So not having a lyrics finish has never been a hindrance to playing a song live. And we knew that night we finished our set. played like, back in the day, you play for four hours. You're playing your few...

Brian Funk (26:26.667)

Right.

Kevin Griffin (26:36.614)

originals and then you're playing tons of you know covers and we were playing Hoodoo Gurus and Smiths and Pixies and REM and Replacements, Husker Du, Better Than Ezra and we got off the stage we were in Jackson Mississippi and people came up to us they didn't say what was that song and they're that's

unsatisfied by replacements or that's pop song 89 REM. Nobody was asking about those songs. They were all asking about this song. What's that's wah song. I was like, that's our new song. So I knew then, then there's songs like, you know, stuck like glue. I knew when, when we, when I brought that demo home that day from the studio, I knew that was a hit song, but you know, collide. knew collide how we day was a hit. but I gotta say,

Brian Funk (27:09.268)

huh.

Kevin Griffin (27:28.852)

I've been doing it long enough that there have been a lot of those that I'm like, this is a hit song, but now comes that weird alchemy of things happening that you can't plan. Like number one, the song has to be at that level to be a hit, but then it's gotta be, the band.

Brian Funk (27:40.204)

you

Kevin Griffin (27:52.865)

Is the artist on top of their game? Are they going to bring it home? Is the label in a position to make the single happen? Is the management on, are they clicking? There's so much stuff that has to happen. And then there's just the, then there's just the, the luck, you know, the PD, the program director at the station, he just happens to start playing it. You know, so, so I've come to terms with

hey, I've written a lot of songs that could be hits. I've been lucky to have some, but there's a whole chunk of them that if those things that would have happened the right way, those could have been hits too. But you do know the ones that are really good. And the challenge is not getting cynical because the songs that should have been hits weren't.

Brian Funk (28:28.086)

Hmm.

Kevin Griffin (28:41.094)

And the kiss of death in the music business, maybe every business, but I only know this one, is getting cynical and bitter about how hard it is. At some point I just was like, next, move along. And worst case, if that song didn't become a hit for somebody, I'll just record it myself. I always love giving songs second chances.

Brian Funk (28:52.278)

Uh-huh.

Brian Funk (29:03.756)

Hmm.

Yeah, that's cool. Well, those are factors you have little control over. All the planets aligning and the timing and you never know something happens in the news that day and it's released and it just... Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (29:13.48)

Yeah, they really do a lot. There's so many stories.

Or the right placement. mean, you know a couple of great examples. Goo Goo Dolls, their album had come out. This is 90s. They were this close to being dropped by Warner Records and Kevin Weatherly at K-Rock heard name on the second side of whatever, maybe a boy named Goo, I'm not sure.

and started playing name, not because just because he loved the song. Boom. It was a hit. K rock, the biggest station in alt rock at that time, you know, train, hey, soul sister. It wasn't reacting. Then they got a placement in, I think it was a Sanyo or a Panasonic flat screen television commercial. Boom.

it happened that way and you can never, you can't predict those things, you know, and you got to be good with that. Otherwise it's a very soul crushing business.

Brian Funk (30:21.196)

Those are out of your control and luck. Somebody just decides, gets placed here or there. That's, guess, what you do and you just keep shooting, keep shooting the shot. Even though the net is moving constantly, it might not even be there today.

Kevin Griffin (30:30.047)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (30:37.236)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (30:44.764)

Absolutely, you know, and at the same time, you try to make the, you try to produce music that's, that is, you know, timeless in the studio, work with great people and just make, at the end of the day, and this is a cliche, it's just like, you gotta satisfy yourself. If you're satisfied, that's the bar.

Satisfy yourself. So whatever happens, you don't have any regrets and you can always go back and go, that's fucking rad. I love it. I've got so many songs that, know, such high hopes and nothing happened on a big scale, you know, and, and, I'm, I'm fine with it, you know, because that's just, it is the, it is the lottery. It is the, the, the gamble of this business, you know.

Brian Funk (31:39.756)

But the payoff is you get to do it. You get to make that stuff. So, yeah. You get to show up and that's work. Right?

Kevin Griffin (31:41.689)

Ugh, that's the best.

Kevin Griffin (31:50.561)

I love every day man. I love what I do. And I'm always you know, there's a guy Have you worked have you had John Feldman on your Podcast Feldman's a lead singer songwriter of Goldfinger He's also a big songwriter producer for you blink 182 and a lot a lot of other people

Brian Funk (32:08.724)

Yeah.

Okay, yeah.

Brian Funk (32:19.478)

Hmm.

Kevin Griffin (32:20.082)

And he is just like, he's a huge personality. one time we were working together and he was like, Kevin, walk out with me to the balcony. And I walk outside with him and he's like, look at everything I've got. He said that, but he goes, say this with me. And I'm like, what? He goes.

Brian Funk (32:38.252)

you

Kevin Griffin (32:45.054)

And he screamed, he shouts out to the woods, I love my life. And I'm like, he goes, say it. I'm like, I love my life. And he goes, no, say it like you mean it. And I was like, I love my life. And there is a transformative power to speaking something that you really feel.

There's a saying like when you spell something out you're casting a spell words really matter and and all the time if If I'm feeling like what do I got today? I got to write with that band. I'm like, are you kidding me? I got a right I get to write I get to do this thing that I love to do and that's I go off fucking love I love my life even on shitty days, you know, it's such it sounds so stupid You know, but but but it you know, there's that whole manifold

Brian Funk (33:32.864)

No, no.

Kevin Griffin (33:36.636)

thing, the longer I've been around the more I believe in all the stuff that I used to roll my eyes about.

Brian Funk (33:42.54)

Well, I mean, what is the ultimate goal here, right? You you want all the success we strive for. We want to love our life. We want to be happy. There's the John Lennon quote I have on my classroom. It's something to the effect of when I was younger, the teachers asked me what I wanted to be. And I said, happy. And they said, you don't understand the question. He said, no, you don't understand life.

Kevin Griffin (33:54.496)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (34:06.56)

Brian Funk (34:10.121)

If you got that on the wall for the kids, just... and me. Remember that. What are we doing this for? Trying to be happy.

Kevin Griffin (34:12.82)

Dude, it's all true.

It's true, you know, and I think it's a really noble, making music, producing music, writing music, performing music. It's a noble path. You you bring happiness and memories and stuff to people. You get to be a part of their life in a really cool way. It's really, it's a real privilege.

Brian Funk (34:42.536)

I agree. And I've been through times where I wonder, you know, the self doubt can creep in and there's so many problems in the world and here I am making little sounds and silly songs. And there have been times where I've been pretty down about it even. it's ironically music that pulls me out of it. It's putting on some music and then you realize this is powerful stuff and

Kevin Griffin (35:05.365)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (35:10.332)

how many times in just my own life and people I know's life where a song brought them through it or something happened and you hear the music and it changes how you feel and see things. It's, you know, we might not have the ability to quantify it but it is, it's real. There's not a number or a statistic.

Kevin Griffin (35:32.161)

No, it's, you know, and people have tried to quantify, know, MRIs while listening to music or what classical music or different types of music does to the brain and in the chemistry of the body, it's real, you know. Yeah, you know, but also to your point, you know, getting deflated and stuff, you go through phases, you know, where,

you're more productive or more creative than others. Sometimes the best thing to do when I'm in one of those funk, especially just a day when I'm supposed to be writing, some days you're just on and some days you're off. My thing is lately I just like, okay, it's one of those days. It's just not in the room. just, I won't force it or what I'll do is I'll just stop trying to make music and I just listen to music, you know, and

And that just kind of unlocks, usually it's the Beatles. It just unlocks this thing that then suddenly I can write again. Just listening to amazing music to me always inspires me in my own music. Yeah, you can't force it. I can anyways. But I also just don't get down. I don't get down when, you know,

Brian Funk (36:56.982)

I mean,

Kevin Griffin (37:01.618)

Some days I bring the heat, some days I don't. And I'm depending on that other writer. I hate it when it's that way, but it was just meant to be.

Brian Funk (37:12.3)

Hmm. Well, and speaking about like collaborating and writing for other artists, do you find anything different going on with you in your own process when you're writing a song for you, for the band maybe, compared to, okay, we're working with this artist and we're collaborating and it's, you kind of know that it's going to be their song to sing and perform.

Kevin Griffin (37:34.047)

Yeah. Well, for sure. You know, like what I was saying earlier, it's way, way more freeing when I'm collaborating with someone.

it's way easier to write, because I'm not thinking of all that internal bullshit that I have. Have I done this before? Is this cool? Is this different than anything I've done in the past? Because that really trips me up. So what I'm writing was with another artist. And it's funny, because I get to see them with their own internal struggle, like...

Is this cool? Have I done this before? When we're writing it, and I'm just this, I'm like a fire extinguishing, I'm like a fire hydrant that's been opened. I'm just spewing out these ideas and melodies and stuff.

Brian Funk (38:14.987)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (38:33.33)

as something in collaborations because I'm just not thinking about all those other considerations that trip me up. So it's way easier to write and finish a song when I'm collaborating with another artist. I love getting kind of...

But I do a lot of due diligence when I work with another artist. I listen to their music and see where they're coming from. Because I think my job is to help them do what they do, maybe not better, but just differently. Just be that band member they don't have. because I'm such a fan of music, I'm pretty good at wearing different hats.

stylistically, whether I'm working with a band that's an East Nashville band and it's like indie garage or it's super minimalist, you know, bedroom pop. I've used that term once before. When I'm writing for myself, I just know songs that are only going to speak to me, you know.

And I just, on my iPhone, on my voice memo notes, I just say BTE. BTE. Some ideas I know are for me, but collaborating, writing for others is way easier than writing for myself.

Brian Funk (40:02.368)

Hmm. It's nice to have a little feedback and a little kind of a, no, that's good. That's good. Stop worrying about it from another person or, even when your energy gets a little low. I've had this a lot with the band where maybe I wasn't going to write down the lyrics today. I would have done it tomorrow, but they're like, let's just get this thing done. I'm like, okay, okay. Like let's, you know, that little extra push the energy when you don't have it.

Kevin Griffin (40:12.424)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (40:23.957)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (40:29.226)

There's a real cool discipline about, and I love this, going in at 11 a.m. in Nashville and leaving at three o'clock, four o'clock at the latest, and you've got a song that didn't exist before. And whatever you can say about the music industry, every time you go into a song write, you have the potential to leave that room with something that will change your life.

And that is, and I think Jonathan Daniel told me, said that. And Jonathan Daniel as a music manager at Crush, he manages Weezer, Panic at the Disco when they were together, Sia, Miley Cyrus. He's a great guy. He's a musician himself. But it's really true. Every time you go in, you don't know.

you you have the ability to do something that will change your life. You know, and that keeps me coming back. You know, just that, you know, roll of the dice is really cool. As opposed, it really is. mean, you know, and I love writing a song with a band.

Brian Funk (41:35.304)

That's a great attitude to step into it.

Kevin Griffin (41:44.255)

You know, and then an hour later the manager calls me, you know, the band loves the song, you know, that's just the best, man. And I'm like, well, that was a good day. You know, check the box. I did something. I accomplished something. I wrote a song. It's cool.

Brian Funk (42:00.14)

I don't know her.

Kevin Griffin (42:03.359)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (42:05.516)

Well, speaking of the direction of the music industry, you are, and you've done this throughout your career. You've pivoted, you've adjusted. I've, I heard you speaking about even just with Better Than Ezra at one point where I think you said the label had dropped you guys and now it's like, what are we going to do? And that's part of the collaborating songwriting with others. You've managed to carve a career.

Kevin Griffin (42:09.96)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (42:30.016)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (42:35.506)

out of not just one aspect of it, but multiple angles, instead of just, say, playing in the band. And now you're in a new one. You've kind of jumping on what seems to be an unstoppable wave.

Kevin Griffin (42:53.726)

Well, yeah, to answer kind of our comment on, you know, I tell people like, look, if my career, if I had been in Coldplay or Green Day, which was an all consuming entity, then I wouldn't have felt maybe the need are to...

figure out other things I can do within music, know, whether it was collaborating or publishing or managing or starting a music festival. because Better Than Ezra is awesome and I love, we just got back from a tour that was great of the Northeast. Because it wasn't some arena stadium juggernaut, you know, even though we should have been, Brian.

Brian Funk (43:44.672)

This carriage of justice right there.

Kevin Griffin (43:45.889)

You know, I've done other things and my career is, I've had a great career because I have so many irons in the fire and I love just wearing different hats and learning new things within this industry. Because what's really cool, we're in the music industry, but until you're...

a festival producer or a music producer or a collaborator, it's a whole different discipline within one industry. So I dig that. But yes, the latest thing that I'm involved with and co-founded is a AI music startup that

was really begun as a response to seeing Suno. Let's talk just about Suno and UDO.

come into being in 2024, that's when everybody heard about it, April 2024. I saw what I immediately recognized as the potential to be this new and even more powerful thing that was gonna diminish my livelihood as a songwriter in a lot of the ways, but I think even more powerfully, that streaming did to songwriting royalties with Spotify and how little we get paid. almost two years.

ago, I became determined to start an AI platform that advocated for artists and songwriters in the AI world that would empower us to kind of call our own shots and help elevate the IP, which is how we write in this world. And we launched it a month ago. It's called Soundbreak AI.

Brian Funk (45:42.22)

This is a huge thing, think, for songwriters especially. mean, it's in every industry really. see it in my English classes with the papers students are turning in that are generated.

Kevin Griffin (45:54.807)

my God. I can only imagine. Do they know? Are they savvy enough to get rid of the long hyphen? That gives away the dash.

Brian Funk (46:01.068)

Yeah, they have Dash.

Sometimes it depends how much effort they want to put into it. Sometimes they get a little clever and they edit it. But sometimes they just hand me these like brochures, you know, talking about their colleagues at work. like, so your colleagues at work, huh? But yeah, with music as well. On one level, for me, I've not been

Kevin Griffin (46:22.41)

Jesus.

Brian Funk (46:33.6)

so worried about it because I like making music. I like playing the guitar and figuring out this puzzle and seeing what happens. So it's not necessarily just the outcome. So I know it can't take that from me, but what's happening with something like Suno that just is taking everybody and learning from them and no one gets credit for it.

Kevin Griffin (46:38.975)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (46:50.634)

feel the same way.

Brian Funk (47:01.832)

is definitely problematic and it's nice to see you guys taking some effort to deal with that and find a way to work with it. It seems like this is not going away. know, history has told us enough, right?

Kevin Griffin (47:04.136)

I agree.

Kevin Griffin (47:17.556)

No, no, it's only...

Yeah, it's only going to get bigger, you know, and just to kind of, a little history, know, Suno came out.

Really in April 2024 is when I first heard about it, Suno and UDO. But if you only talk about Suno, Suno is the big dog. Now it's valued at almost $2 billion. And they scraped the internet without any license, every piece of music they could and they continued to. And then they built an AI model on unlicensed music, mine, everybody's. And they came out with an AI platform where you could type

been a prompt and even version one was crazy compelling. You know, the RIAA Recording Industry Association of America on behalf of the major labels sued them immediately saying this is not fair use. You are infringing on our copyrights and that lawsuit probably will never, it'll get settled out of court. But when that happened and I started playing around with it and going to other songwriters and like, have you messed with this?

way was, like you said, this isn't going anywhere. It's too powerful. There's too much money to be made. So if I don't think of a way to advocate and be a voice at the table for songwriters, we're going to get left behind just like in the streaming world and more history. I immediately thought of 1998, Napster came out.

Kevin Griffin (49:03.658)

then it was.

BitTorrent streaming, LimeWire, and all those illegal sites to stream music. The labels sued. Spotify came out. The labels sued them. And guess what? They settled with them to settle the lawsuits. They said, just give us some equity in your company, Spotify. And so all the major labels own a part of Spotify. And the part that they care about, the master side of streaming, well, that pays very well.

And everybody, if you're a producer and you're listening to this, you know that you can upload your own song to DistroKit or TuneCore. The master side, can make some good money if your song is popular. But the songwriting side is criminally low. when Suno came out, I was like, okay, they're already indiscriminately, this is the same playbook. I know what's gonna happen and it's happening now. The labels are settling with Suno and UDO for a piece of the action and songwriters are gonna get left out. So I was like,

like why can't we build a platform that creates an AI version of your favorite songwriters and artists? Because my aha moment was when I did a little due diligence on AI. And the real simple explanation of AI is the ability to take a ton of data, whether it's language, like chat GBT, or music.

and be able to predict patterns. If you learn enough about anything, you can tell what the next thing's gonna be, whether it's language or music or mathematics, and music is mathematics. So I was like, wait a second, songwriters, we're all just a series of patterns, what we've learned, who we listen to, and people tell me all the time, they'll ask me, did you work on whatever song? And I'm like, yeah, how'd you know that? And they'll be like, I could tell when it hit the chorus, sounded

Kevin Griffin (51:01.034)

like one of your songs. And that was my aha moment. Like, well, songwriters were a series of patterns. I can change up the patterns, but as much as I want to believe I'm a jack of all trades, I do something kind of one thing really, really good. So I was like, wait, if we could create AI versions of those patterns unique to me, unique to Sam Hollander, Fitz and the Tantrums, all these different artists and create a platform that was trained on music that was licensed.

that were the rights holders of those masters were getting paid, unlike what Suno did, which is do it without any permission or pay. If we could create a way to pay the artists with subscriptions and ownership in the masters that their AI created, then at least in this world that isn't going anywhere, we could advocate and create a whole new income stream for musicians, for songwriters, for producers. And that was the lofty goal. And I got together with some guys in Nashville

who shared that same vision and had the technical know-how to do it. And that's what we've created with Soundbreak.

Brian Funk (52:09.228)

So you're able to go in to soundbreak and I did this earlier today and I picked you as the artist and I was able to create a song and I took a quote I heard you say, I think you said your father said it to you, nothing changes if nothing changes. I was like, I want to make a song called Nothing Changes if Nothing Changes.

Kevin Griffin (52:17.383)

yeah.

Kevin Griffin (52:30.218)

Yeah. I love that.

Brian Funk (52:35.144)

I told I wanted it like a 90s alternative sound, but with some modern elements. And it pumped it out. They gave me a couple examples and then it asked me if I wanted to revise it a little and I did a little revision to it. And it's amazing. It really is amazing just how we can create stuff like this. And I guess this is now taking kind of just is it

Kevin Griffin (52:40.329)

Right?

Brian Funk (53:04.84)

analyzing just your songwriting, your music and kind of...

Kevin Griffin (53:09.438)

Well, there's some, first off we have like a general AI model that's been trained on all the music that we license, you know, a bunch of different genres, and then we get together with every artist and we go through a series of verbal cues or prompts behind the curtain. And then we take masters that you own, that I own.

and we use that to refine the output. So it's a, there's some other stuff too, but behind the curtain.

The goal with every artist we have on Soundbreak is like if I type in, this is my go-to prompt, as lame as it sounds, write a song about my favorite pair of sneakers, call it I Love My Chucks. And if we've done our work right, mine will sound like, I decided I'm gonna be 90s, I'm gonna be in 90s indie rock. So if I've done it right, that I hit render, and it's gonna give me a song that sounds like that.

And if you're on David Ryan Harris, you're going to hit it, put that in, and it's going to sound like cool pop with a soulful back beat. So that's really the DNA of what we're building. And then you can download stems, take what you want, and really.

The play, the big thing was sound break. And we can get back to something that Suno does really cool that we don't do, but we're about to come out with, though it's a small part of the business, is if AI is not going anywhere and it's either lead or get left behind, I would rather make an attempt at leading and advocating for us in this new world. And I think there is a way.

Kevin Griffin (54:59.528)

to have a whole new way for artists to connect with their fans. And that is a way like, how cool is it if your favorite artist said, they go on their socials. Hey, come write with my AI on sound break. I'm going to be listening to the songs you make. Every month, I'm going to take my favorite song that you guys are.

written, I'm gonna play it on acoustic, I'll get your feedback, who knows, I might even record it for my new album. You know, when you start having stories like that, even, that's what Better Than Ezra's just done, we've just said, hey, write a song with us May 15th, we're gonna announce our favorite song and we're gonna record it as Better Than Ezra's next single. But we've been around a while, when we get artists that are, let's just shoot for the moon, when Harry Styles does something like that,

It's going to be a revolution in fan-artist connection. And it's going to create new creators. It's going to create a whole new creator class, like YouTube has done for video creators. I mean, before YouTube came along, the barriers to making video...

were so expensive that most people couldn't do it. YouTube came along and with an edit, with editing suite and different things on the iPhone, suddenly look what we're doing right here. You know what I mean? it created a whole new creator class. And I think that AI has the ability to do that with AI, with music. And there's going to be a whole group of people who are so savvy in the way they prompt and upload their own lyrics and massage the output of AI, maybe putting it into Ableton and

putting their own vocals. It's going to be really exciting. It's going to be different, man. It's going to be scary. But we got to get in there and as songwriters and be a part of this revolution. I think it's really cool. I'm already having dialogues with our fans that I've never had before. And it's really cool and how creative people are.

Brian Funk (57:00.428)

I think that is a really cool thing you guys are doing with inviting the fans to make something and tag it BTE so that, so you know, and that, hey, like we made this song, it'd be kind of cool if you guys played it almost or you guys took it and, you know, do whatever you want, I guess, interpolate it or maybe it's whatever you want. But that interaction is, that's a fun layer.

Kevin Griffin (57:10.09)

So we

Kevin Griffin (57:23.113)

Yes, you.

It's really, really cool.

It's really, you know, I've, and we have a way to communicate on soundbreak with, with users, or I can just direct message them on Instagram because you put in your, your, your Instagram username, you know, and I've, I've loved doing that. There's whole new fans that I didn't know were fans of the band and whether I'll repost, you know, a song somebody's done, but we're gonna, we're gonna take our favorite song and we're gonna, we'll re record it.

our way with our real humans playing the instruments, probably change the lyrics some. If there's any limitations, if you've tried to write lyrics using ChatGPT, it's hit or miss, it sounds like eighth grade poetry. Though, if you refine it, like, the few times I've used...

It's really just more advanced version of Rhyme Brain or Master Writer. You know, if I say, write me a song about going out on a Saturday night, well you get a, and call it, call it, till the sun comes up. The first thing you get back is really crappy. And then you say, write me a song about going out on a Saturday night with friends and getting crazy called till the sun comes up.

Kevin Griffin (58:53.906)

And that is little better. And there'll be a nugget or two, but then you say, okay, this is good, but make it edgier. Make it about going out in the East Village, New York on a Saturday night, staying up and watching the sun, make it dangerous, young and indie sounding. Then you get something that's, wow, that one line is fucking dope. And then that leads you to a whole lyrics you write. So.

The point of the reason I'm saying that is that we have that loop of refining that's behind the curtain on sound break is that...

in order to get our lyrics better, there's several different generations of lyrics that happen before you actually get your song. All that to be said is I know there will probably be some lyric, a lyric I won't want to change ultimately when Better Than Us records it. But I'm super bullish on it. I wanted to give musicians more freedom in this new world.

and selfishly a new income stream as artists. And there's a part on the platform where you can onboard yourself as an artist yourself. You don't need us to do it. You build your own studio. It's just really cool. It's just very personal.

And again, at the same time, it's a moving target. We're learning as we're going along. We're trying to do the right thing, being super transparent with all the artists who are on it, whether it's the artist agreement. And it's just like, it had to be something that I, as an artist, would want to be a part of.

Kevin Griffin (01:00:38.088)

I know I'm going on. I know I'm talking a lot. Just shut me up.

Brian Funk (01:00:38.358)

Well that's what I've-

Brian Funk (01:00:44.012)

Well, that's why you're here. I think the best one of these is when I say the least amount when we do these podcasts. you know, it's that's what I found interesting, you know, because there's a lot of AI, this and that coming out for all different sorts of stuff. And I get contacted about some of that once in a while. But hearing it's you behind it and you're a songwriter, you have an invested interest in songwriting and you're

built your life around it. You understand its importance and the humanity behind it and what it is for expression. as you said earlier, how your songs can affect people's lives. there's a lot that I guess some of the other plant, feels like that's all who cares about that stuff when you see some of this other AI things. It's just, yeah, make it, the computer makes a song and yeah.

Kevin Griffin (01:01:41.171)

Yeah, because artists, take, their billion dollar companies are built on our backs. They're not paying.

the rights holders and when I say that that's the masters that they they went on indiscriminately onto Spotify, YouTube music, you name it, SoundCloud and they just were a Hoover, a big vacuum and they just sucked it all up. Every artist we've already been off so my thing was yeah

They can't do that, you know, and if they're going to do it, meaning the labels get in bed with them and try to dictate. just, I've seen it happen before and I was just like, no, I can't, I won't be, I won't be asleep well at night if we didn't do something to advocate for ourselves. I don't want to be left behind like we were left behind and streaming.

Brian Funk (01:02:41.792)

How have you found the response to be so far?

Kevin Griffin (01:02:45.229)

you know what? Dude.

Brian Funk (01:02:46.676)

especially in the songwriter community, because I imagine there's got to be people that are on all sides of this debate.

Kevin Griffin (01:02:52.196)

They're on all sides of it. You know, I can tell you if you look at the everybody that's on the platform are friends and and the the bar that I wanted to get for these initial artists were unimpeachable Working-class songwriters people who have had Grammys Grammy noms Musicians and artists that no one could slag because they're the real deal

And I knew that when I told them what we were trying to create, my hope was that I've been blown away by once I said why we're doing what we're doing and what we're doing. Everybody's like, I'm in. Let me, you I'm in. And then when we...

got our talking points about why we're doing this, what soundbreak, why we're different, even though I knew that all of them, it was bulletproof because it is, we have legal counsel and we're like, tell us why this idea won't work. This is a year and a half ago. And so every little thing that we needed to do, we've done to protect the people who made the music and get them paid.

All that said, when we launched, I really expected to get slagged because AI is super polarizing. Most people though, react out of ignorance because they don't really know what's happening. They just say, AI, it's killing us, it's the death of creativity. You you suck. was good, you know.

But if you look at what's really happening and you educate yourself, then you're like, okay, this is rad. I get it. Good for you. All that said, I expected to get.

Kevin Griffin (01:04:41.566)

really railed on when we when we launched because I've learned a lot of times people like when I'm doing pilgrimage festival, I've learned that people usually and I'm guilty of this too. Like you know, once I've ever read something and you're like it doesn't say anything like you get an email from somebody like you didn't say anything about what I asked for and they go did you read my reply and you go yeah, we'll read the reply again and you didn't look at what they read at all. You didn't read it, you know, when you're reacting.

from ignorance. So I expected to get slagged. We did this big push with PR a month ago and I got one person on Facebook of course that was like, well it was good being a fan, unsubscribe. Other than that,

it's been amazing. There's been a few people, you know, like you guys, you guys always sucked. You wrote one song 30 years ago, you suck. You know, I'm like, fine. Delete. but here's a good example. yesterday I'm, I'm, I'm on the, you know, I'm a voting member of the Grammys, you know, and, and,

Brian Funk (01:05:36.62)

air.

Kevin Griffin (01:05:53.151)

And on the same day we launched a sound break in the morning, that day I was writing a bluegrass song with a bunch of great bluegrass people and we recorded it that day. No technology involved other than a microphone and Pro Tools, I guess. But yesterday I was on a panel talking about AI. It was a music advocacy panel at the Hermitage Hotel to a bunch of musicians, producers who were part of the Grammys, but just interested people and a lot of state legislators.

who were legislating on what's going on with AI. And I was like, one of the things I said was, guys, AI is just a new tool. If you look back, go back to the Beatles. They got...

They got slagged when they were multi using multi-track recording. They had a four-track recorder and they were using a string quartet and bouncing, do a pass, bounce it down, bounce it down, bounce it down. You know, they were using four people to do what they normally would have had a huge orchestra to do. And they did have orchestras, but this is one example. So they got slagged in the sixties for taking jobs away from musicians, even though they didn't. In the seventies, Queen...

on the back of every Queen album, if you have old Queen vinyl albums, it says in bold letters, no synthesizers were made in the making of this, used in the making of this album until the game, like their fifth or sixth album, and it was all synthesizers, you know. Then you go to Pro Tools, know, and it got slagged. Ricky Martin had the first number one with Livin' La Vida Loca. Then AutoTune, now there's AI. It's just, it is just a new tool.

Brian Funk (01:07:20.097)

Mm.

Kevin Griffin (01:07:39.283)

that can be really powerful and make you more productive as a producer. And we can talk a little about how I am using Zuno, even though I don't like it, but it helps me with my workflow. I just think it's a new tool, but we've got to, it's a new tool that we have to advocate as songwriters. And I think we'll look back in three or five years and say, yeah, AI, I use AI in my workflow. I'm kicking ass as a producer or a songwriter.

but it wasn't in the of the world. And hopefully we look back at that time and say, we got protected as creators in this new world and compensated.

Brian Funk (01:08:19.66)

Hmm. Yeah, that would be a first, right? That'd be a nice change of pace.

Kevin Griffin (01:08:22.718)

Yeah, can tell you right now the thing that nobody is really talking about is how AI is really being used daily by music professionals in Nashville, in New York, everywhere. And it is a part of Suno that they don't even care about.

The main revenue source for Suno is doing our verbal prompts, mean written prompts, write me a song about my cat, you know, and you could do that on Soundbreak, but the thing that the music industry is using it for is the cover or remix function. Are you familiar with that?

Brian Funk (01:09:07.42)

I've not used that, no.

Kevin Griffin (01:09:09.164)

Yeah, so on Suno, they have a function, it's called cover or remix. And that, what Nashville is using it for, and we're about to introduce that in about three weeks on sound break, is you take, I'm in a songwriting session, at the end of the songwriting session,

you do a voice memo on your phone, you know, vocal acoustic, then you can upload that into sound and to Suno and say modern, modern country song, dry vocals, stomp clap or whatever you want it to be, you know, indie rock, swampy blues rock. And you can hit render and just like that, you get an incredibly compelling produced version of the song that was

just a vocal and an acoustic guitar. And then you bounce those stems out, you usually get seven to eight stems and you pop them into Ableton or whatever your logic for me is Pro Tools. Then you say, well that's a rad bass part, that's a cool drum part. Let's recut the vocal with a human, the person that I wrote this with, maybe it's me. And then you do that and then you send it into the label, the label goes, awesome, they just want a great demo.

happening in Nashville and that's the reason why most professional songwriters you know have the pro subscription to Suno. That is a feature that we're bringing into Soundbreak but quite honestly isn't the money generating part of either platform. But it is a really compelling thing. That's what

That's so, and for me, like I'm a producer. I produce stuff, I produce quite a few albums. I produce a lot of singles, just doing a whole album for me. I'm so slow, but there's a, I don't come from the generation of, I'm not one of those super fast.

Kevin Griffin (01:11:10.997)

producers on their laptop, that I work with a lot of younger producers who are so damn fast. we're writing this, say it's me, you, and a guy who's on laptop, you know, we're writing the song, we're doing the top line and the lyrics, meanwhile he's cutting bass, programming drums, and by the time we leave that session at three o'clock, the demo's done.

You cut that vocal, you drive your three blocks from the studio or his house or her house, and you get a demo, you're like, holy shit, that's amazing. There's that skill set. I don't have it. So, and most people don't. where the AI world is happening is you write a song for real with humans, then you upload it and you get a fully produced demo that gives you really great pieces that you can use for a demo and you can be

lot more productive and knock out a lot more demos in a shorter period of time. That's what some of the biggest producers in the business are using it for.

Brian Funk (01:12:15.564)

Well, that allows you to put the clothes on the song and see how it plays.

Kevin Griffin (01:12:20.445)

Yeah. And also to take a song that you wrote as a country song and like, Hey, make this a R &B song, make this Americana roots, know, make this an EDM song. It's crazy. So suddenly if you have a great idea, you could, you can suddenly have five different pitches in an hour.

That's how AI can really help you and that's what we're incorporating into Soundbreak. But just in full transparency, that's kind of with the lay of the land out there. But again, that makes up like one or 2 % of the revenue for Suno. But to me as a producer, I find that super compelling.

Brian Funk (01:13:12.716)

It's not a lot different than Logic has the drummer. It's got the bass player and the keyboard player. Ableton Live now has MIDI generators, which will create things. And some of them that are more like third party are really advanced in that they'll produce beats and bass lines and things like that. They'll recognize chord progressions. So it's not that far off from...

Kevin Griffin (01:13:40.298)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:41.514)

what's being built into the DOS anyway.

Kevin Griffin (01:13:43.871)

And think about it. mean, we've, we're so used to using samples now we're so used to working with splice, which is samples, you know? I mean, there was a time where he was, who was the guy that was doing the drum packs on splice where every song you heard was like, I know those drums. I want to name, I want to say Chromio. Was it, it was Chrome beats or something like that. you know what I'm, you know what?

Brian Funk (01:13:49.004)

It loops, drop them in.

Brian Funk (01:14:08.376)

was Beats That Knock maybe. Beats That Knock de-cap. Yeah, there's a couple of them. Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (01:14:15.648)

You know, we all know, and then there's Arcade, know, Alphard makes Arcade. You know, so, they're just new tools. know, I think what's unique about Soundbreak is that we're doing something that other AI companies aren't doing, and it's a new way for fans to collaborate with artists. And that is super compelling and exciting to me, because I'm always looking for new ways to connect.

Brian Funk (01:14:27.169)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:44.586)

And I'm seeing you guys have, I could download these songs, look at lyrics. It says send to radio and distribute. What would that be?

Kevin Griffin (01:14:53.938)

So you can send to Soundbreak Radio and then the idea is for the artists on the platform to see the songs you've written.

Brian Funk (01:14:58.698)

Okay, I see that, yeah.

Kevin Griffin (01:15:08.456)

You can send links to your friends to upvote your song so it performs better at Soundbreak Radio. So, so I get to eat every artist on Soundbreak gets an email once a week of your top 10 performing songs based on how they're performing at Soundbreak Radio. But what's cool. And I think that's even more exciting than that is that we're the only AI platform in the world where you write a song on our platform and you dig it. You can hit distribute.

and you can distribute to all the DSPs, Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, within our platform. There's no other platform that has that. So you can be a fan of whatever artists on sound break, write a song with your AI, you dig the song.

You can, in 10 minutes, you can upload your song and have a song that you wrote with the AI for insert artists. And you could be an artist on Spotify. You could be streaming music around the world. And that's, that's, that's what I'm talking about. Create a whole new creator class and the, and you as a user.

You get 50 % ownership of the master, the artist gets 25%, and sound break gets 25%. That's what the splits are. So that's crazy.

Brian Funk (01:16:36.044)

Yes, I mean that means you could have people uploading songs they wrote with your AI and that's another little bit of a potential income stream.

Kevin Griffin (01:16:37.236)

You know, I...

Kevin Griffin (01:16:51.06)

Well, what I talk to artists about and think about this, and this is whether you're user or you're an artist, is if you're on sound break.

You've spent a lifetime building a sound, you know, and you're always gonna make music, you know, the traditional way. I know, if anything, I'm gonna lean personally as an artist, I'm leaning more into more organic, you know, and live and playing live than ever before. But you've built a sound, it's not going anywhere, but there's a whole new, there's this new technology that's gonna steal that.

Brian Funk (01:17:20.02)

Yeah, me too.

Kevin Griffin (01:17:26.272)

unless you advocate for yourself while on soundbreak, you can get out of bed, look on your phone, onto your soundbreak dashboard and say, my AI wrote 3,200 songs last week. And I've got this much, and I can see, I made this much money from subscriptions and...

The song that Hello Kitty 932 in New Delhi, India wrote with me last month has got three million streams on her TikTok.

and I'm getting that revenue flow and it all comes through Soundbreak. And at the end of every month, Soundbreak artists get a royalty statement. So the IP that you spend a lifetime building can work for you while you sleep and connect with fans in a way you've never done. then also in three to five years or whatever, you can turn around as an artist and you've got this whole new

Brian Funk (01:18:03.82)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Griffin (01:18:29.291)

catalog of masters, of AI masters. And right now we look at AI masters, we're like it's AI slop, stop the slop. That distinction is gonna, as we speak, is becoming blurred less and less. it's coming this year, there's already been number ones that were AI songs.

You know, those stories are going to happen more and more, whether they're a hybrid, maybe it was AI lyrics or AI, you know, whatever drums. But those AI catalogs that started on say like Soundbreak are going to become really valuable and they're going to have, it'd be a whole new income source. Again, this whole thing started as me like, okay, I'm a lifetime musician. You know, how can I...

How can we as artists make money and monetize this thing that's coming, whether we like it or not? And this is the best idea that we could come up with.

Brian Funk (01:19:27.468)

I like it a lot better than this just taking everybody's music and no one gets anything. I mean that seems criminal.

Kevin Griffin (01:19:34.878)

I think it is. I think it is. And I think it's BS, but you know, the labels, Warner's done a deal with Suno, Universal's done a deal with UDO. Baby, it's big business. cash money is the bottom line with these companies. You better believe it.

And so we got to get in there and advocate for ourselves. And that's what we're trying to do with Soundbreak. But yeah, to me, to your point, was unconscionable what Suno has done. And if we don't...

if we're not a voice at the table, or at least giving an alternative. My thing is, here's what I think is gonna happen. The futures, you're gonna sign to Warner Records. And I, look, I was signed to Warner and stuff, I had a great relationship with them, but I'm not signed anymore. They're gonna have their own AI platform for their artists and...

you know, and hopefully they're doing it like we're doing it. But there are way, way more independent artists like me now and like you and people who will never be on those labels. There's way, way more and they need a place to be and that's what Soundbreak's about, you know.

Brian Funk (01:21:05.182)

And I hope people that are doing this recognize that ethical decision to go to a place where artists are treated fairly and compensated. And you know, like that's the ultimate way we get to vote really is with our dollar. You know, we do that every day. We get an election every once in a while and most of us feel like we have no impact on it anyway.

Kevin Griffin (01:21:14.102)

You know.

Kevin Griffin (01:21:29.173)

Dude.

Brian Funk (01:21:32.694)

But the dollar, what you buy, where you put your attention, that speaks.

Kevin Griffin (01:21:37.408)

Well, know, you know, when people, when Spotify came out, you know, not to repeat myself, but to repeat myself, you know, people are like, why would you pay to get what you can get for free? Meaning, you know, there was LimeWire and all that stuff. And the success of Spotify, regardless that they're screwing the songwriters, proved that people want stability.

They want to ultimately do the right thing by the artists who were saying, don't use those illegal BitTorrent file sharing platforms. Use Spotify. People want to do the right thing. And as jaded, as cynical as the world can get, do think that given a choice with two comparable options, I'd rather do the right thing that supports the artists I love.

I'm going to do that. And that's what we're banking on. And that's why we built this. And yeah, and we're super excited. And the momentum we've gotten has been really rad. And it's super cool.

Brian Funk (01:22:51.564)

I think it's clever what you guys are doing with Better Than Ezra about having fans create the songs. That's a nice kind of unexpected turn for some of this stuff. You know, something I hadn't thought of, but it's a great alternate way of interacting with your fans and learning about who they are and letting them participate in the music to some degree.

Kevin Griffin (01:23:16.129)

Well, here's the deal. I've been thinking about this. Well, you could say, what was to stop you before from saying, let's just write a song with a fan? Well, then the world of music.

and rights and ownership can be really sticky, really fast and complicated. You know, the cool thing about doing it through Soundbreak is that...

with the user agreement and what we've done, everything is already spelled out. So it's just so easy to do. And that's why I think it's super compelling. And why I think artists, better than us being the first, will do it more and more. And once that happens, then it's just gonna get crazy. I think that platforms like Soundbreak,

can end up being one of the biggest income generators for artists in the future. I think it's that powerful.

Brian Funk (01:24:31.244)

Yeah, people might want...

Kevin Griffin (01:24:33.195)

Which is really important when touring is more and more difficult, when streaming as songwriters, you know, the middle class of songwriters has been eviscerated by streaming, you know, it's not easy. Especially now for younger artists, it was way easier back in the day when I started to have a career and be really happy with it without being the top of the top, know, being Beyonce or Ed Sheeran.

you know.

Brian Funk (01:25:03.884)

Yeah, and people can make a song for their friend or their loved one in the style of the artist they choose. Whereas it can be much more direct that way with what you guys do as opposed to something else where it's sort of known that it's in that style of the artist, but it's not really like official and

then the credibility and the royalties still go to the actual artist that we're trying to. I want better than Ezra to sing, you know, congratulations, you passed your road test or something.

Kevin Griffin (01:25:41.321)

Yeah, I think it.

Kevin Griffin (01:25:48.928)

Yeah, I just, I think it's just exciting and fun, the whole thing. love the people who are writing the songs. They're super excited about them. I'm having fun listening to them and I'm blown away how great some of this, AI still blows me away what it is and how it does it. I still don't know. Look, I got my dog trying to get to me. And they're good songs.

Brian Funk (01:26:13.516)

Hehehe.

Kevin Griffin (01:26:17.737)

I mean, it's been 24 hours or 36 hours since we launched this Better Than Ezra thing on soundbreak. And there's some songs I like, that's rad. That's a fucking hit chorus. I can't wait to see what we eventually decide on and what we do when we record it for real.

Brian Funk (01:26:41.996)

Well, as you said, every time you go in there, you have the potential to change your life. Could be. Could be another example of that.

Kevin Griffin (01:26:46.708)

Yes.

Kevin Griffin (01:26:52.203)

Absolutely.

Brian Funk (01:26:54.717)

Listen, I definitely want to be mindful of your time and you've been really generous to hang out for the afternoon.

Kevin Griffin (01:27:01.981)

Absolutely and I kind of do yeah, my kids are about to get back from school and I got a got a day It's been pleasure Brian yes and we didn't talk about those old records, but maybe that's for round two

Brian Funk (01:27:08.172)

We'll wrap this up. Listen, thank you. Going all the way back to the 90s.

making the soundtrack of our lives.

Brian Funk (01:27:23.744)

Yeah, that'd be wonderful. Yeah. We will check in down the road too with how everything's going with the sound break. And I think you guys are touring again, I saw later this year.

Kevin Griffin (01:27:36.066)

We're doing a lot of shows, lot of festivals this year. Bottle Rock is gonna kind well Jazz Fest and then Bottle Rock and Napa. And then we're gonna be out, we'll do Ocean's Calling in September. Kind of up near you, Ocean City, Maryland. Well, not too far from you. yeah, Better Than Ezra will be out making music.

Brian Funk (01:28:05.216)

Nice. So the site is soundbreak.ai, if people want to check it out.

Kevin Griffin (01:28:09.813)

Yes, soundbreak.ai, you can check it out. can make 20 songs for free. Go on it, write with a different artist, upload it to the radio.

send it to friends to get them to upvote it. It helps you go up the charts to top tracks. And that's how, I mean, I see all the songs, but that's how I really see the latest songs that people are reacting to. And that's how I know how to listen to them and shout them out. And I do that, actually all the artists are doing that, just shouting out their favorite songs for the week.

Brian Funk (01:28:46.484)

And what's the deadline for the Better Than Ezra

Kevin Griffin (01:28:49.395)

May 15th is, we're gonna go out to Friday. Tom and I are gonna go on live on our socials and say, we'll probably do our favorite five, but the number one song we'll record, and it'll be our next single. It'll be our single for the summer.

Brian Funk (01:29:05.642)

Nice. people will be able to participate in that if they want. Totally free and it's fun. Give it a shot.

Kevin Griffin (01:29:12.435)

Yeah, do it.

Brian Funk (01:29:15.582)

All right. Well, thank you so much. Really great talking to you. if you ever want to it again, the door is open.

Kevin Griffin (01:29:21.675)

Dude, I would love it and continued success with the podcast. dig it. And when I told my partners who are musicians as well, and you know, in soundbreak, they're like, I love that, you know, super cool. thank you.

Brian Funk (01:29:35.286)

Nice. Well, thank you and thank you everyone for listening.

Kevin Griffin (01:29:39.254)

You got it. Bye, guys.

David and I talked about his experience in music production and developing an authentic, interesting sound. In this episode, you’ll hear Midnight Mystery Club’s new single and learned about its creation.

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Midnight Mystery Club Links - https://linktr.ee/midnightmysteryclub

• "I Only Have Eyes For You" (April 3, 2026) Presave - https://hypeddit.com/midnightmysteryclub/ionlyhaveeyesforyou-1

• MMC YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNF2xW2mMSErV1u-VthISzg

• MMC Bandcamp - https://midnightmysteryclub.bandcamp.com

• MMC Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/midnightmysteryclub/

• Toy Synths Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/toysynths

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.748)

All right, welcome to the show David. Good to see you.

David Paul Newell (00:05.548)

Great to be here, man. Thanks for having me.

Brian Funk (00:07.95)

Yeah, it's good to have you. We've got a little bit of a history between us, a little email action going back and forth, back in the day. So it's cool to...

David Paul Newell (00:14.348)

I 10 plus years now, 11 years, I think, since I first emailed you to tell you that as many of those presets and instruments that you make, I will buy them. it was strong, man. It was really good. So it's cool to see how you've come so far and turned all of the plugins and presets and all of those tutorials to now doing this and all the other things you're doing. It's pretty awesome, man.

Brian Funk (00:44.75)

Thanks. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks for supporting it and giving me the encouragement. It's, mean, as you know, like a lot of times when you put stuff out, you release, you don't know what happens with it or where it goes or where it winds up releasing music. don't get to find out like I was listening to that on the drive home after the breakup and it really helped, you know? So it's always nice to hear that. We kind of release stuff and then just.

David Paul Newell (00:50.025)

Yeah, dude. Now it's awesome.

David Paul Newell (00:58.603)

Right?

David Paul Newell (01:07.103)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:13.996)

literally release it, you let it go and that's everybody's.

David Paul Newell (01:17.16)

Yeah. for sure. I mean, every now and then somebody will be really cool and they'll slide into the DMs or, you know, send us an email and tell them, tell me some story about how they first heard our music or whatever. And like makes my month. It's like the coolest thing ever. Cause you're just, cause you kind of, like you're saying you go on so long, you don't hear necessarily the feedback from anybody. And then somebody reaches out and it just reinvigorates.

Brian Funk (01:25.646)

you

David Paul Newell (01:45.521)

everything that you're doing. You're just like, wow, cool. So this is just not for me alone. There's somebody else out there who gets it, which is pretty cool.

Brian Funk (01:53.324)

Yeah. I find that really helps you, meet new people, expand your own career and options because, this is not a zero sum game. You know, it's not like if I'm going to get lunch, I go to Burger King or McDonald's and I have to pick, right? Like people can listen to all kinds of music and I don't get the competitive thing anymore. Maybe I did when I was little.

you younger, you like kind of get jealous of other people or you like feel like they're winning and you're not. But yeah, I've found just like embracing that and encouraging people. And I just find it also too is just proof that it can be done because sometimes you're, doing this stuff and you maybe you're just down on whatever you're making or it's just crickets as a response and it can, you know.

David Paul Newell (02:22.249)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (02:50.158)

It sucks some of the life out of it. to see other people do it and make cool music, it's like, you can do it. It's possible. So I try to absorb that as a personal victory as much as I can. Like you made something. This is great. It's not impossible.

David Paul Newell (03:03.251)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (03:07.08)

Yeah. No, it's funny, especially if you do it so long. I I think we were just talking a little bit before we started about both of us starting back in 2005 with the M-Box and Pro Tools. And you do it so long, it becomes habit forming. And then you're just putting music out because that's what you do. And then it really takes a while before you start to feel like,

Brian Funk (03:22.444)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (03:35.205)

It's connecting with some people and it's creating some sense of community. Like anything good, hopefully good, that you put your heart and soul into does, you know? Like if you run into people who like the same niche restaurant as you, you've instantly made friends, you know, the second you realize that. There is that kind of communal bond over mutual appreciation of something. And I think to me, that's exactly to your point about not wanting to have the competition, not...

that early on competition you have maybe for me when I was younger, you just you feel inadequate. You're struggling with that. And so you you push through that. But as you continue to go on, you realize, no, the the best part of this is just making something and finding friends who appreciate what you're doing. And then chances are they like hopefully if they like what I'm doing, I'm going to like what it is that they're creating. And then because it's kind of all in that world. So the only competition I might have is

maybe with somebody that I don't like what they're doing. But that's rare. mean, thankfully, like a lot of people who are willing to put stuff out today, go through just the difficulty that it is to actually make music today and keep it up. They're really putting their heart into it. So, you know, that usually turns out good stuff.

Brian Funk (04:36.685)

You

Brian Funk (04:54.007)

Yeah. I think there's maybe some value in the, I don't know, maybe competitive motivation kind of aspect, almost like a Lenin McCartney thing where they're like, like I gotta make it and we gotta get to make something cool. Cause Paul made something cool. But you're still kind of in it together. Like they were too, working. I get that. You know, my friends make a song like, I want to make something too now.

David Paul Newell (05:12.869)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (05:21.965)

I gotta get there and get to work. It's inspiring.

David Paul Newell (05:25.753)

Yeah.

Yeah, I've had that. I've got to work over the years, especially when I was younger. Starting off, I worked with a lot of different artists and then just friends of mine that I made music with and we just did it together. And there's always different dynamics, but the guy who couldn't be with us today, that guy right there, the other half of MMC is Levar. And I think with him and I, have a really fun dynamic, which is when we're...

when we're making music and we're working on stuff, it's kind of a competition, but it's kind of not. The competition is really just, what can I do to impress him? And that becomes the threshold because he kind of, I wouldn't say he's hard to please or it's a challenge, but I definitely know that when he is excited about something, then I'm onto something. And it kind of pushes me to further pass maybe where I would have gone on my own or.

Brian Funk (06:07.723)

Yeah, right.

David Paul Newell (06:26.147)

maybe what I would have settled with if I know if I play it for him or if I show it to him and he's not enthusiastically stoked about it then I know I've got work to do still so in my mind whenever I'm working on stuff I'm always thinking I can't wait to show it to him because then that that's the test that's gonna find out whether or not this is something good or not so

Brian Funk (06:48.831)

It's important to have that, to get that kind of feedback. And we're talking about, just so people know the acronym, MMC, Midnight Mystery Club. So that's your group, your partnership. And yeah, to work with someone that you know, you appreciate their taste, you like their taste, you respect it. And then when something happens that they are liking, it is nice to get that. Cause sometimes when you're alone doing it,

David Paul Newell (06:50.764)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (06:58.326)

Right.

Brian Funk (07:17.451)

You get too much in your head. You start thinking too much. And I start often with ideas that I'm really having a lot of fun with. then if I just think enough, I find myself questioning it, you know, feeling insecure about it. And it's nice. I play in a three-piece band, so I got two guys with me regularly that will kind of let me know like, no, no, no, keep doing that. Or let's try something else. And just that little bit of...

David Paul Newell (07:20.887)

yeah.

Brian Funk (07:47.287)

confirmation, it goes a long way.

David Paul Newell (07:48.979)

Yeah. You need it. think for me, as we talked about kind of early on, starting off with like Pro Tools and stuff, I made an album first thing I ever recorded as soon as I got the inbox. So I sat down and I just was like, I'm going to record an album, not knowing anything really about what I'm doing. And it was awful. And it was a great learning lesson, though, because I thought at the time I really knew what I wanted to do or knew how to record or make good music.

And I didn't make it for something that I would like. made it as something I thought other people would like. And it wasn't even done for probably two months and I couldn't listen to it. I just couldn't stand it. And you start to realize that there's this weird thing that happens in your mind when you're solely working on something without anybody else to bounce ideas off of. And you're so close to it. It's like you kind of lose the sense of taste.

a little bit, you're too close to it. It's like trying to paint a painting and only being like two inches from the canvas. You really need somebody else that's like 10 feet away to help you gauge what you're doing. so often I think I would start with a good idea as a song. But then after a couple of days, the initial excitement I had over that had kind of weaned. And so then it was, well, now I've got to generate something new in this song to keep that going.

And then before you know it, I've just whittled the song down until it was unrecognizable in the recording and then made something that I didn't know what it was. So it took a while to learn those lessons. for me, at least, I feel like I absolutely need quality control. need somebody else involved in the process, even if it's just to be a set of ears that I trust because I trust their taste and I trust their judgment. I need that or else I'm my own enemy sometimes.

Brian Funk (09:32.653)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (09:46.123)

Hmm. Yeah, those early days when I first got, I got Pro Tools and an M-Box 2 in 2005 as well. I think I had Pro Tools 6 and it was just updating to 7 at the time. I did have a little bit of experience with four track cassettes and they even had like a 16 track ADAT set up for a little while. That was pretty fun.

David Paul Newell (09:55.39)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (09:59.678)

you

David Paul Newell (10:09.607)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (10:11.916)

But once that came out, once I got my hands on that, I mean, it just blew the doors wide open. was infinite tracks now and all these effects, even before I was getting plugins and knew to get plugins. What came with it was way more than I had gear. I had a reverb, a rack mount reverb and a rack mount compressor that I really barely knew how to use. But then all of sudden, now I can put all of that on every track instead of just, you know, as an aux send or something.

David Paul Newell (10:23.58)

Right.

David Paul Newell (10:41.627)

Right? It's dangerous.

Brian Funk (10:42.988)

and yeah, just you think you need all this stuff. You need all these extra tracks and then you finally get it and you put all this stuff in a song and you're like, it's chaos. It's, it's out of control. There's just so much going on. don't even know what I'm listening to anymore. But it's part of that is it's a great analogy you made. Like it's like painting when you're like right here, right up to the canvas, you know, two inches.

David Paul Newell (10:55.825)

Right.

David Paul Newell (11:00.966)

Right.

Brian Funk (11:11.21)

And every once in a while you have to go back and like stretch your arm out and get the full view of the painting. But that's a hard thing to do because we have to keep switching between those modes, the kind of aerial view and then the right down on the ground with the microscope.

David Paul Newell (11:17.638)

Right.

David Paul Newell (11:29.052)

Yeah, for sure. Sometimes I just can't do it. mean, sometimes it's like you can do little tricks, you know, of course, like take a few days or a few weeks away from something and come back to it, which is helpful. But, you know, even now when I'm when I'm mixing stuff, I still have to have other people involved in the process because, know, you get really in the weeds tweaking something and then you forget how loud your eye hats are. And it's like they don't even sound loud anymore because your brain had just adjusted.

to the level that they're at. you know, even when I mix, I have a wonderful mastering engineer, Mike Neku, who's in Australia. And I send him mixes as I'm working on them, because of course he's going to have to master them, but he can kind of provide some feedback on where things are setting. And then it helps me kind of know when I've finalized the mix or not. and I, without that, I really get myself into some trouble. So, or it just takes me twice as long. So.

Brian Funk (11:59.213)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (12:26.764)

Hmm.

How long did you stick around in Pro Tools? Do you still use it?

David Paul Newell (12:32.857)

You know, it's a good question. I went through the hybrid phase where I would kind of record in Pro Tools, bounce things into Ableton around 2010 through maybe 2012, somewhere around there. But I would say 2010 was probably the year where things shifted for me. So I grew up, like you mentioned, I was playing guitar. That was kind of like my first instrument. And then in...

Every year I got I got a guitar when I was 12 and then the next year I picked up piano And then I think bass after that and then drums. So I just kind of started adding instruments. I think I got a saxophone somewhere around there too Not great at any of them, but just playing enough to get by just to make noise and then but Pretty much the music I understood how to make was in a band where we're like a four piece

alt-rock kind of band and That's I think when you when you learn how to play guitar That's obviously what you learn you learn rock songs generally, right? if you're gonna learn most guitar at least in the United States and I actually it probably made me more of a fan of rock and roll because I don't know if I was listening to a lot of rock and roll before I got a guitar and then But as I would progressing guitar, I really wasn't listening to a lot of this stuff that

that I was learning how to play or that people would say our band sounded like, which was, I don't know, was probably bands like Coldplay and Snow Patrol when we were young and just getting started. And those were like the popular bands and, you know, not to knock the bands, but that wasn't what I was going for. I was listening to like a lot of stuff from Europe, like more electronic stuff like Neon Indian and Hot Chip and

Who else was there? I Daft Punk, course, Air, a lot of that stuff. And I didn't know the first thing about how to make that music. Like, I knew how to record and make music as a four-part band, but I didn't know what in the world a sequencer was. I didn't know anything about programming. I didn't understand that world at all. So I kind of hit my head against the wall for about five years from the time I got that inbox till maybe 2010.

David Paul Newell (14:56.63)

We eventually went into a studio with the band. tried to record an album and I hated it. Couldn't stand the way it sounded. And people listened to it. I mean, they were nice. People were gentle, but what they were comparing it to was it was not anything I wanted to sound like. So it just made me realize that what I'm trying to do and what the actual product is that I'm making are two entirely different things. And, you know, I grew up in California, kind of all over the Central Valley and the foothills and

the Central Coast, but there wasn't really anybody making electronic music of any form that I knew. So I didn't have any friends that could kind of clue me into what was going on. And it wasn't until 2010 when I just finally had it and I was like, I hated all the music I was making with a band. The band was great, great guys, but the music we were making, just wasn't it. And then I found Ableton and it was really at that point that I...

I downloaded Ableton, I think I got like the 30 day free trial. And it was mind blowing how quickly I could make stuff that I had, I think my mom's laptop and I downloaded it onto her laptop so I could get a second free month out of it and then just transformed, just transported all the tracks over there so I could finish it. I recorded like five or six songs in two months. And the quality that I got within that time period,

compared to, think we spent two years trying to record an album with a band that we never released before that. And I felt like I accomplished more in two months with Ableton than the previous two years. So everything at that point changed. And I still was a little slow to move away from Pro Tools. Still like the freedom of recording in Pro Tools, but maybe just for a couple more years before I just ditched it and went Ableton altogether.

Brian Funk (16:48.211)

Yeah, that's cool. Very similar to my story in a lot of ways. I I didn't, I was a guitar player. still play guitar and play in a band, but yeah, that's how I was into it. I didn't know what MIDI was. didn't understand any of that. Pro Tools had some MIDI in it and I'd figured out how to get some synthesizer sounds in there with whatever they had. But it was so foreign to me.

David Paul Newell (16:52.68)

Really?

Brian Funk (17:15.371)

Probably not until a little bit after. I did leave Pro Tools probably like 2007 or eight and started using Digital Performer actually by Motu. And then it was Logic for a little while. then I was rewiring Logic into Ableton or Ableton into Logic, right? And that allows you to basically work in...

David Paul Newell (17:24.295)

Okay.

Mmm.

David Paul Newell (17:36.103)

Alright.

Brian Funk (17:41.438)

side of Ableton Live, but you can have a track in Logic that's receiving the audio. And I was doing that for a while until I started to realize like, why am I still opening Logic? Cause I'm doing everything over here inside of Ableton Live. But it was kind of just like a moment that changed everything for me. I was recording vocals and I had a MIDI keyboard, like some audio thing. I didn't even understand it, but I knew I could.

David Paul Newell (17:45.821)

Right?

Brian Funk (18:09.163)

press keys and hear notes. But I mapped the knob to like a delay and maybe like a reverb on a vocal track. And while I was recording, I was turning the knobs and I was like, my God, this is cool. Like this is not drawing automation afterwards. I'm now like reacting to the effects. Kind of like when you play guitar through pedals, you react, you play differently if you have a delay on or something or distortion and all the other effects up until that point were

David Paul Newell (18:25.382)

Right.

Brian Funk (18:39.599)

Afterthoughts you would record and then you'd apply an effect and maybe you'd automate it But to be able to do it in real time. I was just like this is cool. This is some Now the studio is an instrument. I'm playing the studio like an instrument and that got really exciting and yeah, I mean that was then I wanted to learn all about how's this MIDI work and You know figure that all out

David Paul Newell (19:03.643)

Yeah.

Yeah, for me, think it was with Ableton, was just the immediate grid view and the ability to just immediately jump into creating beats and percussion and all of that stuff very easily, whether it be through MIDI and just like a drum rack or recording and just dropping in samples. The workflow was so quick, so easy, and just made so much sense that I was just like, I can't think of any other way I'd want to do this.

So I was a huge proponent of Ableton there. And then as the software advanced, because I forget what version of that would have been in Ableton back in 2010. of course, it seemed to just advance with every new version of it. You got amazing new tools into it, where it just, from a creation standpoint, just coming up with ideas that became so cool. And I still don't use tons of

features that it can do. But I'm with you. Yeah, the ability to just automate on the fly is pretty cool. But for me, was just being able to compose and lock things in very quickly, even if it was a demo or just a concept, where it just felt so much more time consuming to do that in Pro Tools. And in Ableton, it was just like lightning fast.

It just made a lot of a lot of the things where I felt like it took a long time to get what was in my head recorded so that I could listen to it and see if I like it. Using Pro Tools in Ableton, I could do it in just an hour or two and then find out, do I even like what I'm working on or not? And that was just like, that was great because then it just allowed me to just continue to ride that wave of being excited over an idea and continue to come up with other stuff. Even if I ended up trashing it just

David Paul Newell (21:05.002)

It felt like I could really find out whether or not what I was working on was something that I wanted to hear come to life or not. Where with Pro Tools, it just always was a struggle a little bit to really flesh out ideas. So yeah, so I still probably craft most of our stuff. Maybe it starts on guitar or maybe sometimes it just starts on keyboards, but almost as quickly as I come up with the idea, I'm moving it into Ableton.

to just copy and paste chunks, work on structure and see how things fall. And then I'll come up with a chord progression and drums and I'll actually just play back in Ableton while I write lyrics. Because it's faster and easier for me to focus on lyrics than it is to play my guitar and come up with lyrics because my hands are free. I can just start writing down ideas based off of what I'm hearing and speed it up or slow it down as needed. So it's fantastic, totally different process.

Brian Funk (21:54.889)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (22:04.362)

Yeah, that's cool. I always felt like I was making music in spite of Pro Tools, like against it. But I think in those days, a lot of the DAWs were really just trying to emulate a studio in a computer with the linear timeline, which is like your tape basically. And all the mixing stuff was very like you would see on a console. So you'd have all the routing of creating bus channels and auxes and things.

David Paul Newell (22:10.295)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (22:19.297)

Right.

Brian Funk (22:34.878)

When I started using live, it was like, no, this is more like for creation, songwriting, not just being an engineer in a studio. So that appealed to me a lot because I wasn't ever really looking to become an engineer. I wanted to just make songs. And yeah, like you said, that's a great point too is inside of live, you can kind of just keep it going and looping and come up with your ideas. Like it's a great way to do vocals hands-free so you can have your guitar playing for you.

David Paul Newell (22:41.366)

Right.

David Paul Newell (23:01.526)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (23:04.138)

I find myself doing that a lot actually, just blabbering and then finding lines. Oh, that was cool. It sounded like I said that. You know, write that down and build that way. I felt it was much more like for songwriters than engineers.

David Paul Newell (23:08.01)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (23:14.006)

Yeah. yeah.

David Paul Newell (23:21.664)

Yeah, there's a lot of parts of the process I still struggle with and you're always looking for ways to kind of keep the process feeling fresh. So I think that Ableton does a, it just provides a good platform for me to be able to dive into it and, and still feel like I'm not, I'm not being held in by any ideas, but you're at least for me, I always feel like I'm trying to come up with new ways of the process. Cause you don't ever want, I don't ever want to feel like I get stuck in a rut where I'm like,

relying on a method of writing songs or relying on the same process, because even that can make what I'm coming up with feel stale. So I try to switch it up on myself. And I feel like Ableton is a great tool that's allowed me to do that with, even now with bringing in splice integration, where you can really, I can now just start playing around with samples if I wanted to earlier in the process.

And a lot of times, you know, I do, we do play with samples a lot. have, I don't know how many samples thousands, but I seldom ever end up using them, but I like them for like ideas, whether it just be a really unique rhythm that was played. Maybe it was in a minor key or whatever, but I'll drop that in and that will provide some sort of basis of what then I end up either programming or playing in order to take its place. And, and that part of the process is a little new. I've had.

And some of our more recent work, that's something that's been really fun to play around with is just on the fly, just bringing in little samples that trigger some new fresh idea. And it's like, cool, I've never made a song like this before. So allow that to be the start of the process. And it's kind of fun.

Brian Funk (25:07.274)

That's a cool way to work where you get something to work, you know build upon that's how I started actually You know before I had the computer even when I had like the 8 at setup I Couldn't play to a metronome. I never practiced on those so I just couldn't do that But I had this Casio keyboard, you know, it's like hundred dollar thing with like a hundred presets and beats in it and I made a pack out of it. Actually it's out there somewhere. It's free

David Paul Newell (25:28.807)

Nice.

David Paul Newell (25:33.309)

rep.

Brian Funk (25:37.013)

pack of drum sounds and stuff. But it's, I would just put on like one of the beats that kind of worked with whatever I was doing. And I'd record that into my, you know, eight tracks or whatever. And then I'd play guitar over it. And then I find I had something I can play off of now. And a lot of times those drums wouldn't make it, but occasionally they'd find their way into the song. I'd like, you know, it's kind of cool. It's like really kind of a dorky sounding beat, but

David Paul Newell (25:55.527)

right.

Brian Funk (26:05.77)

fit the song or you just get used to it in the song and it started expanding my way of working. So I think that's a great way to use them. You you can of course use them. There's nothing wrong with that. You know, and your music too, but as sort of placeholders and things like that, just to get you going and moving forward. I believe so much in the momentum.

when you're making music, gotta just keep some sort of momentum going. Because once you slow down, then your mind starts working. And you start thinking too hard.

David Paul Newell (26:32.375)

for sure.

David Paul Newell (26:38.565)

Right.

Yeah, for sure. No, I'm with you, man. That's, it's still something. I mean, thankfully it's been, I don't know, it's been a while since I've felt like I've hit a wall on stuff, but I don't know. I think if it's good, it just encourages me to keep making it. And then of course, if I run into technical difficulties, then hopefully the song doesn't suffer because of it. But sometimes that can slow things down, right? But yeah.

Brian Funk (27:06.546)

Yeah, you gotta sort of accept a little bit of technical difficulty, I guess. The more you complicate things, the more points of failure, I'm sure you know this feeling. You start really learning how all this stuff works. You learn your gear and everything. And then maybe you start working on a track with somebody and it's not working. It's not working. You can't figure it out. And half the time it's just because you forgot to plug something in.

their audio cable's not in. It's like the most simple thing, but because there's so many other places to look. It's an important thing. I find it too, actually a lot doing this podcast where a lot of people I speak to got nice mics and their headphones and it's great because it makes for good audio. But we very often are like, hold on, I'm not getting sound. I don't know why. But sometimes you speak like in just like a Zoom meeting with anybody.

David Paul Newell (27:58.319)

you

Brian Funk (28:03.985)

in the world that has no idea about this stuff. They just open their laptop and they're in. Sure, they don't have maybe that quality, but they're getting to work and there's something to be said about that too, the simplicity.

David Paul Newell (28:17.075)

there was a period there, I think, you know, for a few years where I was trying to make everything on a PC that won't be mentioned, but the amount of latency that I fought with constantly that seemed to just constantly change. So it was this kind of mirage moving latency issue that would become a nemesis and eventually spurred me away from the PC world. But thankfully, but yeah, that was.

Those were some issues, man. Hopefully, but you live, learn. But yeah, think hopefully it's in some recycling bin somewhere today.

Brian Funk (28:51.239)

Yeah, that's true.

Brian Funk (28:57.321)

Yeah. Well, you've got some proof that this is not possible. You've got a new single coming up. You guys put something together. You want to tell us a little bit about that?

David Paul Newell (29:08.385)

We do. Yeah, super pumped about it. got, this is going to be a pretty exciting year. Our calendar's like really full of releases. So this is the first release this year. It's a cover, which we have not had a lot of experience with covers. This is our second cover we've ever done. Never really set out to do a lot of covers, but actually I had this idea, oddly in a dream and woke up and I was like, why not?

But a lot of people remember the version by the Flamingos. It's the songs called I Only Have Eyes For Mew. It was really set famous by the Flamingos as like kind of romantic 1950s doo-wop kind of song. It's great. I mean, I've always loved. It's a great song. It was actually written in the 20s. So the Flamingos was the cover. So the original version was like in the late 20s. And it's kind of what you would expect, like very like jazz.

Brian Funk (29:49.585)

That's a beautiful song. Great production too, was it?

I didn't know that.

David Paul Newell (30:04.012)

kind of big band inspired 1920s kind of stuff. And there's been a few people that have all done their version of it. think the Flamingos version is amazing. But yeah, I wanted to take that and as I always just love the feel of that song, I just wanted to take that and bring it into our world a little bit. And so I just went to it with absolutely no preconceived idea of what it would be.

But it fell together really quick. was one of those songs where you just start working on it and the whole idea was there in a day. And it was just, was from there, it was just, you know, working out the kinks, but, singing all the harmonies, which took a long time. but all the, all the, the, the building blocks of it was all completed pretty much in 24 hours. And yeah, just super excited about it. So it's just going to be released as a single on the 3rd of April and

Then we're going to be following that up. have about five more singles to come out and then an album that we have slated for July 10th. And then we also have something else that we're working on for perhaps in the fall where we've been working with a lot of some of our famous, some of our favorite DJs and producers that have contributed some remixes of our stuff that we plan on putting together a remix release.

Hopefully have that out before the end of the year. So super excited about that too, because got some really cool folks working with on that, which is going to be cool.

Brian Funk (31:38.921)

And there's a good way to work with a community, right? To build connections, doing remixes for each other, helps get the word out on not just your track, but the artist as well. People might wanna check them out after hearing it, if they know them from you.

David Paul Newell (31:42.678)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (31:53.791)

Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. I feel like I never tried to ask for remixes. We've worked with a couple of people over the years who've just been friends. A great guy I know, his name's Stan, but he goes by Pioneer Ball. He's in Russia actually. He was the guitarist in a really awesome band that was around a while back, but totally 80s throwback called Tesla Boy from Russia. And so...

Somehow back in the day I got connected with them and I helped them set up a little bit of a tour and they came to California and I got to hang out with them and get to know Stan pretty well even though there's a bit of a language barrier of course. But wonderful guys and super talented amazing musicians and then we just stayed in touch. And when we released our first album Reason or Rhyme back in 2017 he contributed a remix to it just was just like hey man I'd love to do this and I was like

blown away by it. So when we were looking at having the releases we had on schedule for this year, I had reached out to him and he was nice enough to jump on board again. And for whatever reason, I just felt like, well, let me see who else I could contact. And I reached out to probably 20 or 30 folks that I just love what it is that they do. they're just people that I would never expect to want to partner with on anything, but I just was a fan of theirs.

And I was really surprised and thankful how many people were jumped on board and with no like pay pro crow or no desire to really do anything other than want to help support us, which is just awesome that there's that kind of still, maybe perhaps more than ever before that kind of like communal kind of aspect to making music. So.

I'm blown away by the people that we got on board for this and some of them. I mean I've been fans of some of these people for 20 years and to be I actually have them Remixing and working with our stuff is just like a dream. So I'm really excited about all that. It's gonna be hopefully be pretty cool.

Brian Funk (34:09.213)

Yeah, that's great. And all you gotta do is ask, right? Just... Yeah.

David Paul Newell (34:12.241)

Yeah, all you got to do is ask. It's amazing sometimes the doors that open. So yeah, for sure.

Brian Funk (34:17.885)

Yeah, it is true. Well, we can play this track, right? I only have eyes for you. The Midnight Mystery Club edition. It's, I mean, this original, well, I guess it's not the original, the Flamingos. I mean, there's a song that really has some vibe to it. You know, all that reverb and space and shabup shabup, you know, all that, those cool background vocals. And I think it's cool how you guys approached it. It's a, it's a different.

David Paul Newell (34:22.758)

Sure, yeah.

David Paul Newell (34:30.288)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (34:38.918)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (34:47.825)

It's a different song almost, you know, but, it still has some of that kind of mystery and, know, kind of a, like hazy feeling that the original has or the flamingos have. So yeah, I'll put this on and, we'll give it a listen and then, we can talk more about how you guys made this happen. All right, here goes.

David Paul Newell (34:59.536)

Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully.

David Paul Newell (35:10.716)

Alright.

Brian Funk (35:13.545)

My love must be a kind of blind love

can't see anyone but you

Brian Funk (37:10.12)

you

Brian Funk (38:04.648)

Yeah, nice.

David Paul Newell (38:07.512)

Thanks, man. Yeah, I think as I was listening to it, I think there's probably a DX7 keyboard in there that's from one of your patches, by the way. think, yeah, I think I know that there's a few that are layered, like the same kind of keyboard sound, that kind of famous 80s electric piano. Yeah. And I know that there's, yeah, it's a great sound. I find, I don't know.

Brian Funk (38:18.024)

yeah?

Brian Funk (38:26.514)

Yeah, that electric piano. It's a great sound.

David Paul Newell (38:35.114)

I know because there was a lot of different models of that keyboard that there is some differences in that particular sound because I think the original DX7 is just a little simplified and then perhaps some of the ones that came later just had a little larger sound to them. Anyways, so there's several, at least two, I think tracks of the same type of keyboard from different patches in there that are kind of on that chord progression in there. So yeah, so thanks.

Brian Funk (39:04.178)

Yeah, my DX7 doesn't work anymore. I think the battery needs to be replaced. They're batteries. Like how annoying is that? But I think you've got to solder it in. I don't even know. I've never tried to figure it out. I might've Googled it once, but I do have this, it's like the Korg Volca version. And I have it set to that piano and I almost never change it off of that preset.

David Paul Newell (39:16.071)

wow. yeah.

David Paul Newell (39:24.876)

Yeah, yeah.

David Paul Newell (39:31.319)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:32.122)

It's just like kind of there just for that point. Cause it is, it's such a great sound. It's everywhere in the eighties. you want to kind of call that feeling to mind a little bit. It's kind of mysterious too, I think fits nicely in this track.

David Paul Newell (39:39.229)

man, all over the place.

David Paul Newell (39:48.044)

Thanks, yeah. mean, there was a... It is mysterious. I love that it just really cuts through. So a lot of times, because we tend to do a lot with synths, of course. And I think there's at least six to seven layers of synths going on in that song. So adding keys on top of it, sometimes you're just really limited in the spectrum of what you can do to have it still cut through and still stand out if you want it to stand out.

Brian Funk (40:09.864)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (40:14.102)

And that key sound to me is, that's one of the great things about it is you can have a lot going on and still hear those just as clear as can be. And they sound like they're much louder in the track than they actually are on the channel, so.

Brian Funk (40:27.964)

They have almost a metallic character to them that definitely kind of bites through a little bit. Just on that attack, you know.

David Paul Newell (40:30.544)

yeah.

David Paul Newell (40:36.199)

Yeah. Yeah, steel bells kind of sound to him a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (40:41.318)

Yeah. Glassy steel type. Yeah. FM synthesis for you, guess. Great for that sort of stuff. All those high frequencies that cut through. so yeah, I've wanted to ask you a little bit about some of the synths going on. lot of really cool sounds. The bass is awesome. Really cool groove you got with the bass and the drums.

David Paul Newell (40:47.453)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (40:52.275)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (41:02.141)

Thanks, man. Yeah, I assist 808 on the drums. And I mean, everything that we do with drums is pretty layered. So we go for a real, I think some of our stuff, hopefully the stuff that's coming out this summer, you'll hear it even more. But we've gravitated over time to a real combination of like a natural live drum with supplemented with like 808s or 909s or whatever we wanted to use. And I don't know how many different samples, but we've got a lot.

But I really love that combination of kind of a synthetic sound with the natural punchiness. so pretty much every hit from snare and kick is always like a layered combination of two, sometimes three, but usually just about two. And so the 808, of course, is providing that punch and the depth. And then there's just like a natural live kick that gets that more punchy, higher tone characteristic on the track. And then of course provides that top end, because you really pay a lot.

I know, I try to pay more attention to how the kick sounds on like an iPhone because a lot of big kicks, you just, don't even hear them. So you're really looking for that mid and upper register tone to come through. And it's super easy for that to get lost if you're just using a sample alone and it doesn't have, or it just doesn't have a dynamic to it that feels real and natural. So.

So yeah, so it's usually a combination of that on the drums. And then I forget what the bass was. I know what the plugin was called, which is called Feel It. I think it's, I forget who makes it, but it had just a really great kind of feel it. think, yeah, I think that's what it was called, Feel It. But yeah, so it's just, so essentially that's just the same bass synth on, I just made it two channels and then split them left and right.

Brian Funk (42:42.545)

Feel it? Like, touch it, feel it? Huh. I never heard of that.

David Paul Newell (42:56.947)

So there's a bit of that echoey delay on one by like probably 15 or 20 milliseconds just to get that nice room. And then of course, summed everything below probably 200 Hertz down the middle and then let everything above be really stereo. So yeah, it's probably some version of a Moog. So, cause that's what it sounded like to me. And then on the synth side of it, I know that there's probably the biggest synth in there is a Diva, the Yuhi Diva.

Brian Funk (43:04.039)

Hmm.

David Paul Newell (43:26.999)

And I forget what patch it was, but that's the main synth you probably hear. Then there's a Prophet that's in there that's also fluctuating just to kind of give it some life. There's a BA-1, I think, in there at some point. And then the Opal. Yeah, yeah, the BA-1, the Baby Audio. And then the Opal. What do they call that? By UAD?

Brian Funk (43:44.647)

Is that the Baby Audio one? Yeah, that's a good one.

David Paul Newell (43:56.184)

the Opal Morphing synth. So that's in there at some points too. So yeah, that's mostly it. And then there's just multiple layers. And I forget, I pulled it up today to look at it. But there's, think, seven layers of just synths, about four of those at a time, perhaps, with a little bit of overlap, depending on the parts. And then the keys come in. That's separate. There's like, I think, two or three layers of keys that are mostly the DX7.

But honestly, it's probably one of the lighter tracks. I mean, as far as just how many things we have going on on that one, it just didn't need it. And the basis of the song that was working immediately was all about the drums and the bass. So everything else just became ways to kind of fill in the spectrum. But yeah, the bass was just a cool patch. Yeah, I don't remember who makes it. I think it might be Oberheim, but it might be an Oberheim patch or something, but yeah.

Brian Funk (44:57.165)

That's cool. you know, the more room you leave, I guess, you know, I can really appreciate all the different layers. You can hear everything. If you kept stacking stuff together, then it's like, okay, I don't even know what I'm hearing. I'm hearing just sound, right? It's this one whole brick of sound. But when you, you've, you've kind of kept it within that familiar range where you can really pick different things out and

David Paul Newell (44:58.158)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (45:16.962)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:26.575)

notice them and notice when they come in and out. Cause sometimes you start layering things together. Like we were kind of talking about it earlier actually, just, you just put too much stuff in there. It's nice to let stuff breathe a little bit. I think it's a great strategy with the drums too, because you know, acoustic drums had to be in the world. They had to happen in the actual world. They had to actually produce sound waves and in the air, you know,

David Paul Newell (45:35.979)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (45:54.08)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:55.624)

And there's something that adds to it. It adds like an environment or something along those lines. And additionally, like you said, it'll make it cut through on an iPhone. mean, isn't that your favorite way for people to listen to your music? Like, yeah, I made it sound like, oh, let me check it out. I want to hear your music. And they pull it on their iPhone. You're like, no, you're not hearing it. people, yeah, it's so easy. And you know, it's right there.

David Paul Newell (46:10.476)

You

David Paul Newell (46:15.51)

I

I'm guilty of it too though. I do it way too much.

Brian Funk (46:25.411)

As sad as it might feel sometimes, it's an important consideration. You kind of want it to translate it in as many places as possible because as I've learned, like you're lucky to get anyone to listen to anything ever at all. You know, there's hundreds of thousands of tracks a day or whatever getting uploaded and you know, if anyone will take a second when they can listen to or watch or access anything from the entire

David Paul Newell (46:33.314)

yeah.

David Paul Newell (46:40.257)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (46:52.807)

catalog of human creations in a moment. You know, it is a privilege to get your stuff played anyway at all.

David Paul Newell (46:55.041)

Yeah.

And to your point, mean, a lot of I think, I mean, we live in a time where I feel like even some of the cheapest speakers you buy sound really good. I mean, it is a it can be a little bit of a crutch, for lack of a better word, as in you, you know, that it's going to sound decent on nice speakers. But like, how do you make it sound good and not the best environment? And so that's always

Brian Funk (47:03.376)

Ahem.

Brian Funk (47:08.732)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:12.935)

Cough

Brian Funk (47:21.927)

Mm-hmm.

David Paul Newell (47:26.718)

the challenge is to like, wow, this sounds really good. And then not stop there, go like, yeah, it sounds really good on great equipment. But like, how does it sound on really awful equipment? You know, or just the not the not the best environment. So trying to do our try. That's like, that's always the kind of like, I guess, like, carrot that's always a little out of reach that you're always trying to get, you know, which is just how can I make sure that this checks all the boxes? So

Brian Funk (47:49.926)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (47:55.338)

Wanting to make sure that that works But I would say that the thing with the drums especially with layering drums natural drums has less to do with Although I mean obviously from an audio standpoint It is a lot about creating balanced sound on all in all environments But I think it started more for us just out of a desire that we don't want to be like a DJ group That was never the desire. We don't want to just set up there and spin I mean Levar comes from the world of live drums

I grew up playing in bands. The dream has always been to take these songs on the road. And so when we produce and record, though, Ableton is very friendly towards electronic music. It's always looking for ways to incorporate as much natural, real sound so that if we do take these songs on stage and we start playing them live, they don't feel dramatically different. It still has the same feel. I've always liked bands that have some kind of way of

blurring the line between what's electronic and what's actually, you know, all analog, natural, organic. And yet I still love electronic because I feel like so much of the sample, so much of that sound is just so pure and so big. But with everything that we do, even with the even with some of the soft sense and those kind of things, I'm always looking for ways of how can I drag that into a real world?

How can we drag that into the studio? How can we, for the album that we're going to release in July, it's called Telescope. And the album, recorded parts of it at a studio called Chase Park Transduction, which I mentioned earlier before we started, but that's where this background is. This is inside the control room of Chase Park. And it's a studio in Athens, Georgia. it's where REM recorded all their albums there. Tori and moi, who I'm a huge fan of.

Recorded some of his albums there. So it's a great studio really great people Yeah, it's a great space great equipment and they have this wonderful neve console and We We went in there mostly for drums who recorded all the drums there, but then everything else like all of our sense all Literally all the other instrumentations we sent through all that gear. We sent it all through the neve and then back into

Brian Funk (49:52.165)

Yeah.

got a good energy.

David Paul Newell (50:19.365)

the box so that we had all of that coloring and that kind of thing. So I'm always looking for ways to bring as much natural character as much of that so that when we do get to the point where we're able to bring these things to life, you know, on the on the road, that it's it doesn't feel like it's a completely different band. I've seen, you know, you've I think we've probably all if we've gone to a few concerts, you've all had those experiences where you see a band live.

And you're like, this does not sound anything like, not that it has to sound exactly like it, but it doesn't even sound like the same band. And I had, for a while there, I worked in Live Sound. used to be an audio engineer for a period in my life in Nashville. So we did a lot of shows and you see a lot of bands perform with a lot of help, a lot of live track playback and those kinds of things on stage. I've just always admired people that somehow figured out that way of balancing.

things that you really could only do in the studio, they're really only possible in the studio and bringing that just enough into the live show so that it doesn't feel like a completely different version, but also not relying on those things for the foundation of the song. So that's the goal, that's the bar, I guess we set for ourselves.

Brian Funk (51:37.735)

I'd like to ask you a little bit about that process of taking your tracks and running them through the console. I love doing that kind of stuff. think, you know, like our soft synths and everything are amazing. but they do have a tendency. I don't know exactly how to put it, but they're almost, they don't exist anywhere. Right? Like, where is like an alive.

David Paul Newell (52:02.892)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (52:06.594)

recorded instrument or even like a mic to anything, it just sort of has its place. But I do find sometimes running it out through some gear, processing it a little bit, even through like a pedal or something. I even have a Tascam 8-track with a mixer built into it. just sometimes I just use the channels just to flavor it a little and bring it back in.

David Paul Newell (52:28.839)

yeah.

Brian Funk (52:32.344)

It makes a difference to just have that signal travel through some electronics in the real world and come back or even through an amp or something. Yeah, I just kind of curious how you guys do that. Is it just running it through the channels? anything? What's that process look like?

David Paul Newell (52:50.238)

Yeah, so I mean, thankfully when it comes to that stuff, I don't have to be as hands on. can just kind of point to what I want to use and then they throw it in. But we have thankfully a couple of great guys that we work with. Brian Dane Hansen, who's a wonderful producer and engineer. He he engineered all of our recordings and then his assistant. So great guy that works for Chase Park. His name is Ben Hackett. So they were the ones to really handle that stuff. I know Brian's a big fan of exactly what you're talking about there.

Brian Funk (52:57.595)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (53:19.798)

He would be a really cool guy to have on your show if you ever wanted to dive into a lot of the technical stuff because he's a very creative out of the box guy. He loves to do stuff where he's got a I think it's a mini moat and he sends everything through it like he records his maybe not everything but a lot of stuff I've seen him do. He's got he plays his bass right into it and then uses the filters on it to give tons of color into him.

He's got a Rhodes sends that through it a Melotron sends that through it so it's just simply using the all the hardware they're available to you and all the Essentially everything the filters I guess is probably the only parts that you can affect with it But he uses that a lot and then in the studio. It was mostly just about trying to get some of the gain staging I think we used some Chandler limited Hardware along with the the neve console

But it was really just figuring out nice settings on the on the game and everything to just per track. And then Ben was able to set it all up so that it was just going right out of the box and right back in. Brian was the guy that was really kind of working all the knobs. We had a tendency to really push stuff. So there ended up being a lot more tracks that we didn't use, just stuff that ended up being distorted or funky or.

There's a couple of tracks though where it was it was really cool like where What we did in the studio was way overkill and it was just too much color too much stuff going on maybe hurt the dynamics of the original audio file, but I was able to use that track and blend it in maybe 40 % with the original file and it just was what it needed So there's always kind of fun little work around so there was a lot of that in

in the finished product, especially with like some of the drums. But yeah, it was a fun, super fun process of just playing around with as much of that. I mean, that studio has got some great gear in it, so you could really go crazy in there. And we didn't have all the time, but we set a day aside of just running everything through all the hardware there. And it turned out to be a huge help. And I think what it brought was it just, to me it brought, I always have this discussion with people that are,

Brian Funk (55:30.383)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (55:46.63)

audio files and engineers. But I think at some point, you're technically probably losing information, right? You're probably technically sacrificing 100 % clarity and 100 % if you want to say quality. I think that term, you don't really know what that means. But it just depends on what your definition is of that in audio. But let me put it this way. We talk about vinyl records.

I love the sound of vinyl records. A lot of people love the sound of vinyl records. Prefer it over mp3s or waves or CDs or whatever. And I think to me that's true. Technically it's less quality as far as if you measure quality by the consistency or the accuracy of what was recorded versus what's being played back. But what you're losing somehow with vinyl sounds more natural, sounds more comfortable.

And so it's it's Degraded perhaps but in the way that it is it feels warm people say that you know, it feels more natural It feels easier on the ears less fatiguing all of that and so I've been having this conversation especially as it relates to ai because a lot of people, know, of course now with ai which can make everything sound pristine Anything that you want there is this real push towards

Redefining our definition of what it means to be high quality audio Because if you're like me you listen to like a lot of stuff that was recorded in the 70s in the 80s And you actually like the recordings better even though technically maybe they didn't use The as much of the spectrum as people are today They didn't push the volume threshold as much as people are today yet somehow that sounds better quality even though our definition of that may be different and

I think what AI is going to have a difficult time doing is following what feels good, just as much as if AI could cook a meal, it's not going to necessarily be able to judge what tastes good, because that's so sensory, it's so personal, and it's so independent on each person. So I think that there's this real freedom when it comes to re-examining what our definition of is good quality.

David Paul Newell (58:08.469)

and perhaps going towards just more what feels good to you rather than what checks the boxes or looks on the spectrum like what it should look like or what fluffs, you know, it's this it is or whatever. But just going by pure feel and then feeling free to just go down that rabbit hole, like make things sound really weird. you don't have to hopefully my hope is is that with AI because because our

Quote-unquote perfection as far as audio is concerned. It's gonna be so achievable for so many people It's gonna open up this new lane which is if you want to be really weird and yet creative and make things that just Feel good. You can do that and you're not gonna have as much competition there so So I really love that about playing around with a lot of Analog gear and all of this stuff and and even the stuff we're doing in the box as much as I can trying to bring

a more natural approach to it and not try to chase some mysterious idea of great sound and kind of go, no, like you can actually roll off tons of low end. You can drop everything out of there if it feels good and it just sounds good to me somehow. Perhaps that's a direction that now can set apart what I'm doing more than if I'm trying to chase this idea of having a really ultra dynamic.

ultra loud ultra using up all the frequencies like For instance not the song that we just played because that was recorded before the other stuff that's coming out but In a month or two, we're going to start releasing singles for what's going to be telescope coming out in july And all the songs on telescope all had a I think a massive passive on the master channel that was Doing 24

dB reduction or maybe it was just a low pass, but at about 18k, which is a super old school method, right? I think that they did that because it actually helped vinyl records to not distort or whatever, but that's across the board. We tried the masters without it and then we listened to it with it and it just sounded nicer. And yet there's actually less information. Plenty of people want to use up that information, especially in the last...

Brian Funk (01:00:29.06)

So you're just filtering off the very high frequencies that we barely hear anyway.

David Paul Newell (01:00:32.385)

years. Yeah, just cut them off completely. Yeah, and but for whatever reason, it just made everything sound to me different and more natural. And so we went with it. And it was just one of those decisions where, like, I think previously, I would have been apprehensive to do that, because I know from an audio engineer background, like you want to hold on to everything you can in that range. And there's even this idea that stuff around 40k will

somehow give you an impression that there's more air going on, even though you can't hear it. But just because I think of the fact that we're more interested now in creating some kind of sonic signature that feels identifiable than we are towards chasing the idea of what good sound is, that it allows us the freedom to do stuff like that. And I would hope that we end up doing more of those kind of things in the future, where we just disregard

what's considered to be the norm. And I think back to like Neon Indian, his first album was crazy sounding. It sounds so weird, but it's great. And I mean, there's been plenty of albums like that, like DJ Shadow's Introducing that came out, you know, a long time ago, but that album, he recorded and mixed it in his bedroom and it sounds like it, but it holds up. And I listened to those albums and I go, there's no way that AI is going to be able to make

those kind of unless you tell it make it sound like this i'm sure it probably could but as far as creating what the new the next thing is going to be that utilizes the freedom to make things sound however you want them to i think that that's going to become a thing and it was actually so it's really cool so i'll tell you just a little bit more to back up in case there's people listening that are like he doesn't know what he's talking about i i was having this very same conversation with

A gentleman who is the head of Sony music that I actually got to know him when I was working in Nashville years ago and We had talked on the phone a couple months ago and I got to catch up with him and he's a super nice guy and He was telling me course in Nashville. They're dealing with most mostly country and Christian and gospel and those kind of things but he said when it comes to we were talking about sync deals and he said pretty much everything that they're getting requests from

David Paul Newell (01:02:55.742)

Whether it commercials or whatever, they are almost exclusively getting companies, production companies asking for tracks that sound like they were recorded in your bedroom. Because it's becoming so achievable to have a super polished sound that it sounds generic. And so he was like, we're actually asking some of these huge artists to like deliver the demo instead of the production version to just get that sound. And that's what they want to use for

TV shows and movies or whatever. And so I found that super fascinating, but to me it just kind of encourages me that there's less of a desire or less of a pressure, if you will, to craft that ultra polished sound. And I think that that's freedom for those of us who just want to make something that's actually unique and feels original. I think there's this huge freedom now to be able to do that.

and not have people disregard it because it doesn't sound quote unquote professional, where maybe, you know, 20 years ago when we started making music, we heard that a lot, right? Like, this doesn't sound as professional, it doesn't sound as loud and as dynamic as all the other stuff. Like now it's like, well, if that's suddenly easy, if that's suddenly the middle of the road, then the things that actually sound unique and outside of that become more noticeable. And there's all of a sudden this openness in the listener.

because they're saturated with things that sound polished, to be open to hearing something that maybe sounds different and that triggers in them more interest because, wow, this doesn't sound like everything else, which I think is a really new avenue that we have available. And so I find that trying to utilize as much of these tools as we can to push that within my comfort zone is gonna be where we wanna go and hopefully what we can do.

Brian Funk (01:04:52.184)

Yeah, I agree with you that stuff has gotten really slick and polished and it is a feat of modern technology and a lot of skill as well of engineers and producers that can get it there. But it sometimes is at the cost of interest, interestingness, you know? Like you said, like the bedroom sound, like that

David Paul Newell (01:05:16.08)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:22.788)

That's more endearing than the clinical studio. know, the sterile, perfect sound, I think a lot of times. I feel that's been happening kind of a little bit anyway, even without the AI being able to do it. But cause yeah, like you can really get stuff to sound pretty darn good just by having some of the software that exists today.

David Paul Newell (01:05:28.561)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:05:52.844)

and using some of the samples and built-in stuff. That would have been a lot harder in the past. But it's that kind of thing, like everyone can do that now. It's almost like a Twilight Zone episode or something where everyone's beautiful and that you just want to see someone with messy hair now or somebody that's a little bit different looking just because it's more interesting.

David Paul Newell (01:06:03.769)

Right.

David Paul Newell (01:06:12.431)

Yeah.

Right.

David Paul Newell (01:06:24.675)

Yeah, I-

Brian Funk (01:06:24.708)

It is a cool thing to explore. Yeah, go ahead.

David Paul Newell (01:06:28.579)

I think about it a lot because I think about food a lot and so and I like to cook so But I always and I feel like there's a lot of similarities, of course between food music, but There I kind of think about it and like what you're saying like the whole you know Twilight Zone idea like if they made a machine where you could eat at any restaurant and the machine there's a machine at the restaurant that can turn out The best quality whatever pizza you name it tacos

Brian Funk (01:06:38.692)

Sure.

David Paul Newell (01:06:58.381)

what would consider to be the best in the world are available at every single restaurant by the same machine that can perfectly create out of thin air, whatever food you wanted at the highest quality level. If suddenly that was the case, I think what the the following situation would be would be that people become very hungry for something that's new. Because if suddenly excellent anything is available anywhere,

Though, yeah, they may have interest in that and that would probably still do well. It's not like people are going to take advantage of that. But there is going to be a certain portion or percentage of people that are more willing to seek out something unique and different and perhaps try food that they would have never tried before because it was perhaps not something they would have considered eating, you know, but now they'll eat eel or they'll eat, you know, whatever octopus. What is it? Squid ink.

squid ink pasta or something, you know that they wouldn't have had before because because now it's so saturated with what the middle is or what the middle of road is and so I like that analogy because I think of that in relation to Essentially what AI is doing where it is made the middle of the road even though I'm I don't think it's going to create the best of anything but I think it's going to make the middle of the road very accessible, but

Brian Funk (01:07:58.595)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:08:22.893)

Hopefully the the following effect that comes a little later is that for the audience that perhaps always wanted to be spoon-fed things that were very vanilla has this appetite for things that are truly different and This wasn't my idea, but I did hear somebody else talk about this and I really liked it but they were talking about the trends within the art world like fine art around the ends of the 1800s where as you approach

the, I guess it would have been the 19th century or throughout the 19th century, there was this movement to have all painting be extremely realistic. Things became more and more hyper realistic to where people wanted their portraits painted because it looked just like the real thing. And then of course, the camera is created and people can get their portrait taken and suddenly that's available. And it kind of makes that style of art obsolete to some extent. And yet,

You would think that perhaps a lot of people or the art world would fall off because of the invention of the camera. But in turn, what ended up happening is you have Picasso and you have all these people that are doing really bizarre stuff that perhaps would have never been considered before that, but are suddenly being taken very seriously. And there's a hunger and appetite in people for something that is truly different because now all of a sudden art has this freedom it didn't have before to not be this thing in a box that

that had to look like the real thing, but because that was that box was checked by photography. Now, all of a you know, people that were painting could paint whatever they wanted, and it has nothing to do with reality. There is no need to do that anymore. And so I like that analogy because to me that that really encouraged me as far as what I want to do musically is hopefully I kind of hate the whole like, you know, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus, song structure. I just kind of hate it like.

Sometimes you feel like it works, but other times I just feel like I don't like a lot of songs that sound like that. I like songs that surprise me. They don't, you I know what like the catchy song structures are. I like things that catch me off guard. And so, I feel like that, that has always worked because the audience has, has demanded that that works. And yet I, my hope is, is that at time goes on things like that we can get further away from there becomes less of a pressure.

David Paul Newell (01:10:49.639)

to have to have songs be in this box that they've been in for a long time. And there's this new freedoms to really explore things outside of that. And we're trying to get ahead of that a little bit, I think.

Brian Funk (01:11:03.287)

Yeah, that's cool. think it's interesting. It's an exciting path until you go back to your food thing. Like, yeah, if you could have those like, I don't know, five star Michelin chef at their best meals, that would be fun. But I would still want grandma's meatballs, know, like, you know, mom's lasagna or whatever, you know, it is. Because there's something about that.

David Paul Newell (01:11:08.562)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:11:17.906)

Right.

David Paul Newell (01:11:24.423)

Right?

Brian Funk (01:11:34.308)

There's something about when even just anyone cooks something for you, specifically for you even, know, kind of, yeah, maybe this wouldn't make it here or there in some fancy place, but like it's authentic. It's for you. It's with what you had at hand. It's your ingredients. It's your twists, your, all of that went into it. You know, like they say,

David Paul Newell (01:11:59.292)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:12:04.289)

Made with love or whatever. that's an important ingredient. It's not, there's no channel on your session for it. You know, there's no fader, but it's in there and stuff like that. Cause you could, I'm sure there, I mean, there's tons of emulations of these consoles and whatever, you know, and you could use that and it will sound probably pretty darn good.

David Paul Newell (01:12:14.668)

yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:34.049)

maybe you would even get it closer to what you were hoping it would sound like. Cause some, you know, sometimes you've run stuff through the hardware you have and you've kind of stuck with it. I love, I love using like the cassette machines and running stuff through there and you get what you get, but they have plugins for that and I can tweak it forever.

David Paul Newell (01:12:37.914)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:12:46.65)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:12:53.63)

Well, you're on one of my favorite topics because like I think that making decisions that you force yourself to stick with are an important part of the process.

Brian Funk (01:12:54.305)

Brian Funk (01:13:02.647)

Yeah, certainly. That's crucial. Making music is making decisions. Like you decide what to do and we don't have to. And I think that's where we get stuck a lot. It's one of the modern issues for us producers these days. You can download a new plugin, new samples. can...

David Paul Newell (01:13:04.793)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:24.961)

mean, even gear, you can go on Amazon or Sweetwater and it's all available. It used to be you had to go to the music store and see what they had and deal with it. So that decision was made for you. And you couldn't return it like you can today. You got a piece of gear and it's kind of garbagey, but I've been learning it and I figured it out and all of that.

David Paul Newell (01:13:28.056)

yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:13:41.465)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:13:47.768)

Yeah.

I think there's even from back in the day before all of these things before the software became so readily available I kept talking about which i'm certainly guilty of I have a lot of plugins and all that stuff, right? Yeah But it's it can be There is something really strange and I actually find it kind of beautiful about having limitations that are either self-imposed or imposed by what our situation because

Brian Funk (01:13:59.275)

I'm so happy we have it. It's not a complaint, it is also, it's the problem too.

David Paul Newell (01:14:19.342)

How many great albums? mean, there's so many when I think about it that like the initial debut album by an artist was fantastic. And then they blow up, they become huge. And then their following album, it just doesn't sound nearly as good. And yet you can from an audio standpoint, from like an engineer standpoint, you well, many times you can hear, yeah, you can hear its quality is better, right? The recordings are better, but it's lost that magic.

Brian Funk (01:14:39.456)

Or it sounds better. Like, better. Quotes.

David Paul Newell (01:14:49.308)

And there's so many examples of that where I think, you just, had this free, all sudden this artist has this freedom to pay for all the studio hours they want to, they, they have the freedom to buy whatever equipment that they want to work with, whatever people that they want to work with. And that doesn't usually equal really good music. A lot of times it equals, you know, pointless direction, which I think you hear on a lot of those albums. And yet,

Brian Funk (01:14:49.537)

Mm-hmm.

David Paul Newell (01:15:19.192)

Like, I hate to use them as an example, but I'll beat up on them a little bit because they can take it. they've been wildly successful. But of course, Coldplay, I think the first album by Coldplay is head and shoulders above everything else that they ever did. I think their second album is pretty good. But to me, the albums that I listen to is I haven't listened to probably every album they've done. But for the years that I had followed them, there was this dramatic decrease in what I felt like was heart.

you're kind of describing right which is that made with love characteristic that was existing in that early stuff that was somehow squelched by judogukai okay

Brian Funk (01:16:01.014)

Yeah, she's good. think she just found a new spot to lay down. I gotta make sure I don't move my chair too much. It's on wheels.

David Paul Newell (01:16:04.936)

yeah. That's cute. But yeah, there's something to that, because I really think that, you know, I feel like self-imposed limitations is really important. So like when we're working on stuff like this new album that we did, like there was a lot of decisions that we just forced ourselves to make where it was like, OK, if we're going to use a console emulator plug-in, we're going to decide on one. And that's it. I'm not.

Using all the things that I have available. We're gonna

Brian Funk (01:16:37.095)

A-B-M for A-B-C-D-E-F-M, side by side.

David Paul Newell (01:16:39.856)

Yeah, yeah, yeah and there was a lot of stuff like that just little decisions that we made I mean What is it the album that we did? Well a couple albums ago. We did an LP or an EP called aesthetics and And telescope actually a good portion of telescope, but a lot of aesthetics we used a jv 1080 on everything so my goal was just like I'm gonna use it this I'd say it's a rack mount synth by Yamaha jv 1080

Brian Funk (01:17:04.384)

What is that?

Brian Funk (01:17:08.47)

Okay.

David Paul Newell (01:17:09.183)

They also made the 2080 they're very similar super popular 1980s rack mount synth So I had bought one and I wanted to use it on every track like no matter what and so That became kind of like a fun challenge which the first part of that challenge was is how many presets can I create out of this thing that I like and the cool thing about the JV 1080 which I mean it would be a great one for you to play around with and see if you can make some some plugins off of that, but the

There's for every sound essentially there's four parts of that sound and I don't know how they break it down But there's literally four buttons on the the front of it. So as you scroll through every preset you can turn off or turn on four voices, but I think they're more than just a voice but Essentially every sound is made up of a lot going on. So within every setting there's essentially four settings So going through and finding all those I spent probably a month

Just doing that and saving all of those presets in the 1080. And then of course, as we worked on the album, was, you know, just sending as much stuff, just MIDI out through, I did play a little bit through the keyboard, through the rack mount, but a lot of it was just pre-recorded with the MIDI and then just send it out from Ableton back in just to get the audio from it. And we used it for everything.

One of the title track from the album, Telescope, the main things you hear on the track is all JV 1080. It's a JV 1080 organ and it's a JV 1080, I think they call it jogging synth, but it's this weird little poppy, it's got like an envelope filter on it that makes it sound really cool and trippy, but it created its own rhythm. So it just had this, and that sound birthed the whole rhythm of the song. So I had just sent it through the JV 1080 back in.

Brian Funk (01:18:39.724)

Hmm.

David Paul Newell (01:19:01.915)

listen to it and I was like, this is the rhythm of the song. And then I just kind of, we designed the drums around the, the scent itself to make it work. so that, that thing became the basis of so many cool ideas that came from it. And so I just love that idea of kind of self-imposing just ideas, whether it to use piece of equipment or to just not use certain things. But I think that that's, I mean, the hope is, is that you keep doing this and you get to be better at it and more opportunities open up.

you get access to more gear, get access to more studios, you do all that. But then to remind myself that like, that's also dangerous. Like just because you have access to nicer stuff and more equipment, just because I can go out and buy 10 cents when I could only afford one, that may be one of the worst things I could do for myself because it doesn't necessarily create things that are focused, that are whole, you know, that. And so.

Brian Funk (01:19:50.53)

Hmm.

David Paul Newell (01:19:58.192)

Yeah, so that so i'm a big believer in what you're talking about because I think that in order to Continue to create in order to continue to push boundaries a little bit You kind of have to self-impose a little bit I think great albums were made under those two like Led Zeppelin four, is arguably one of their best albums, right? It's that whole thing. They kind of restricted themselves in some way. They all went and lived in a house together They had to record in this house. It wasn't a studio. So they fought the acoustics of that and

That's what they chose to do is they made their environment the limitation and they had the recording studio in the van on the driveway, right? But they made that decision in order to give what became iconic sound to that album. And so I think like making decisions like that is part of the fun part of the process that if you have the discipline to ride that, even though it may get frustrating and even though you go like, I could do so much more if I just bought this other plug in or if I just, you know,

Brian Funk (01:20:34.347)

Hmm.

David Paul Newell (01:20:55.493)

borrowed this piece of gear from my friend or whatever. But I think sometimes you wouldn't ever come up with the cool things that you did if you didn't put those restrictions on yourself to some degree. yeah, and I also look back on some of my earliest recordings as like some of my most clever things I ever did, which was like, I would never think to do that now, but I only had like two plugins, I could only do so much to come up with something cool. And what I came up with was super out of the box that like I wouldn't

would never occur to me now to do that. But I was just bored and I only could do four things, you know, in Pro Tools. I only had like four plugins. I think one of them was like Cosmonaut or whatever. And so I played around with that all day long and came up with some weird stuff and it was like, that worked for somehow. And I would never think of even using that today. And yet it really birthed a lot of cool ideas. And I look at all the ideas that I've come up with when I've had access to a lot of great equipment and stuff.

And it reminds me of other stuff that I think is better, but it's not necessarily unique and it doesn't feel as much like me. yeah. So don't know. I haven't fully fleshed out that idea, but I love what you're talking about because I just, to me, I'm a big believer in that concept that if you come up with ways of creatively creating boundaries for yourself, you really create a good ground to grow things.

Brian Funk (01:21:59.852)

Hmm.

David Paul Newell (01:22:23.899)

So, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:22:27.913)

I think that's what creativity is. It's like problem solving really. It's finding solutions with what you have. So you remind me of again, this, I said it was a Casio keyboard, but it was actually Yamaha. It was Yamaha. And I think back, it's like, you know, just one of those toys. Basically you got, they must have mass produced a million of different kinds, but part of the, my own amusement.

David Paul Newell (01:22:33.999)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:22:40.463)

Yeah? cool.

Brian Funk (01:22:56.993)

in those days was seeing if I could use like the really garbagey sounds and make them sound cool. And that was like a creative challenge. It had this like distorted guitar that was just nothing like a distorted guitar. But I found a spot for it and I was like, yes, it works. You know, it's it's right in there. And those are that was a little challenge I had sort of put in the back of my head for when I got stuck or when I needed to.

David Paul Newell (01:23:01.487)

Right?

David Paul Newell (01:23:13.179)

So that's cool.

Brian Funk (01:23:24.555)

come up with something new or when I already added too many guitars or something. And I don't think flipping through the samples of kick drums or going through every preset and then seeing if you can download a new free plugin is creativity. think that's just looking for a way out of it. Whereas when you, like you say, if you decide I'm going to just use this one rack mount synth, like let's make it work. And it didn't.

kind of informs the art that you come up with too. And it all kind of goes hand in hand.

David Paul Newell (01:23:57.044)

Yeah. Well, you have to love it to begin with, right? It's like I'm not picking a piece of equipment that I hate and go like, this sounds like crap. I'm going to figure out a way to use it on everything. It's like, no, you find something that you really love and then you just go, OK, let's just what happens if we only do this?

Brian Funk (01:24:10.183)

Well, for me, it actually was. I did think that thing sounded like crap, but it's all I had, you know? So I didn't have another option. It was the keyboard. I was just, I didn't even think of it. It was just the keyboard.

David Paul Newell (01:24:13.312)

Well, that's true, right? Yeah. Right.

David Paul Newell (01:24:21.302)

But you loved the way that it sounded like crap, right? There was something fun about playing some... Yes. Yeah. See, and that's gotta be... It's gotta be fun. It's gotta be playful. And I think that that's... Like what you're hitting on is the same thing. I mean, the JV-1080 has its limitations. It's not perfect. But there's some stuff on there that just sounds really cool and different. And you're just like, okay.

Brian Funk (01:24:27.425)

I loved when I could get away with it, working, knowing how crappy it was. Yeah. That was fun. Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:24:48.788)

That is enough. That's fun to play with and just like riding that out. Let's see what happens. I'm like you though. I wish I would have held on to it though, man. There were so many. I had a really cool, when I was a little kid, I had a Casio Rapman keyboard. Yeah. Did you?

Brian Funk (01:25:03.091)

Yeah, made a pack out of that. Yeah, a friend of mine had it, let me borrow it, I sampled the whole thing.

David Paul Newell (01:25:12.094)

I think it was a Ratman 2 and it had like the wheel on it that you could like scratch with it. I wish I would have...

Brian Funk (01:25:15.457)

Yeah. Yeah. It had a little scratch wheel on it. It, you know, really. No, I mean, it was fun, but yeah, I did sample the daylights out of that thing and yeah, it's fun to like pull. I've got all the beats off of it and sometimes I'll pull those out and stretch them or something and see if I can make it into something weird.

David Paul Newell (01:25:21.894)

Hahaha!

David Paul Newell (01:25:30.697)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:25:35.867)

yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:25:41.339)

yeah.

Brian Funk (01:25:43.211)

Weird stuff happens to those old keyboard beats too when you start pulling them apart. The way it synthesizes those sounds or whatever it's doing. All those artifacts are interesting.

David Paul Newell (01:25:57.404)

That's cool. Yeah, I've been I haven't got to do as much of that cool stuff that you you've done. I mean, we're always. Dude, that would be awesome. I'll take it. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I I loved it.

Brian Funk (01:26:04.52)

I'll send you the Rapman pack.

Yeah. Yeah, I think I got that in. It's a whole collection of toy synths. call that just toy synths Ableton Live Pack. And it's a, it's got that Yamaha keyboard that I had, which died eventually, you know, just stopped working one day and that was it. But I, sampled that and yeah, sometimes I like to pull those up and just be like, all right, what can I do with these really primitive sounds and

David Paul Newell (01:26:18.713)

yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:26:26.942)

Bye.

David Paul Newell (01:26:36.297)

Yeah.

Yeah, that BA one I think is really fun for that because that original Casio was just kind of famous for that, right? was just like the crappy one that I think was a Dr. Luke uses it on everything. you know, if I'm looking for something that's just kind of playful and fun, that's always a fun one to play with.

Brian Funk (01:26:57.96)

Yeah. Yeah, those things are cool and they're immediate. There's nothing really to dig into with it. It's just, it's got the sounds and then, you know, go with it. It's up to you to make it music. And I think that's where creativity comes in. Cause then you might say, let me see if I can stretch it or put it through this reverb or, you know, where can we take it? You're kind of like exploring.

David Paul Newell (01:27:05.435)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:27:10.012)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:27:27.008)

You get in that side of the mind working.

David Paul Newell (01:27:30.438)

Yeah, it certainly, I think, forces you to grow some sort of skill set, right? When you're kind of like, just like, how can I use this thing to come up with something that I'm going to like? yeah, I think that that's for a while. used to, when I first kind of got started in my journey of music, was co-writing with a lot of artists in house music in Europe. And it was kind of less, less.

sound design, but certainly creativity wise, you know, I was kind of brought in as a ghostwriter and worked with the shapeshifters and Michael Gray and I had a publisher out of Ibiza. And I spent summer of 2015 living in London and spent some time in Ibiza during that period as well, working with a lot of these guys. But, you know, when you're a hired gun, so to speak, you're kind of brought into the studio to work for another artist. You're not like pursuing music you would want to record necessarily or

coming up with something that hopefully they will be happy with. And if they're happy with it, they will invite you back, of course. If you don't like it, that doesn't matter. And many times what you contribute in product will sound nothing like you had ever intended. But it really forces you to develop some sort of skill of like, OK, here I am under the gun in the studio, and I just have to come up with something that works for this song that I'm not even sure if I really like. But.

Brian Funk (01:28:38.568)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:28:58.866)

I feel like that was such a necessary step. I wouldn't have wanted to do that forever. Like I did it for two years. I got out of my contract after two years and moved on to pursue my own music. It actually, I think it ignited a deeper fire within me to do my own music. But that period was so necessary. It was like songwriting boot camp, so to speak, of just going through the motions of just like...

forcing myself to be creative when I didn't feel like it, when what the music was doing wasn't really doing it for me, and where perhaps I wasn't in an environment that I was comfortable in, I didn't have access to the gear that I wanted, and then forcing myself to kind of go through that and create something, which, like, still to this day, I don't look back at the music that I made as something that I'm ultra proud of or that I would...

you know, want to pursue more. But I wouldn't give anything up for that because that was such a necessary process to go through and develop hopefully something in myself that learns to like, just because I'm not feeling it just because I'm not at any given moment. And this happens for probably every song I've ever worked on. There is a moment where it just feels like, is this working? Is this not working? I don't know. And then just developing that muscle that pushes through that regardless.

Brian Funk (01:30:01.216)

Hmm.

David Paul Newell (01:30:25.901)

And then you realize that, yeah, that's just, that's just like almost like a writer's block that goes away. If you just continue to move forward with it, you'll finish it. And so there's seldom ever any tracks that I don't finish. We don't release everything, but there's seldom any tracks that I wouldn't say are not 80 % 90 % finished that I just don't feel like I can't complete. And I, and that wasn't the case. I don't think before that I definitely had a tendency to work on something.

And then when it just, the ideas stopped flowing, things stopped feeling like they were new. I got used to hearing the song in my own head, so it lost its novelty of being fresh. Then I would give up and then move on to the next thing or whatever. But I think after that period of just kind of forcing yourself to power through, definitely helped with that process. Hopefully, hopefully you'll hear it for yourself when we release the album.

Brian Funk (01:31:18.336)

I bet. Well, I bet it does. And kind of talked about it a little bit. You get in your head a lot when you do this. And one of my ways around this is just to try to move really fast and just keep going, keep working at a speed that I don't even have time to judge it. You know, like kind of like in that case with your experience sounds like it doesn't matter if you like it.

David Paul Newell (01:31:47.457)

No.

Brian Funk (01:31:48.416)

the point is to just make it and When I'm in that phase, I actually have the most fun as it's like I'm just making music. I'm just doing it and of course, it's not I'm trying to make stuff. want to make and that I like but I'm kind of bypassing that like inner critic circuitry that comes up if I don't go fast enough so when it's just like

in these like more sprinty kind of workflows that I find I enjoy the most and often get the most done just because you're moving. And just don't stop to worry about it. It's not an issue. I just have to finish this for today and then the end. I can judge it later.

David Paul Newell (01:32:35.839)

Yeah Yeah, I was I I think it was fun even when I was kind of in those environments where I when I say that it wasn't probably as natural or it wasn't as fulfilling just because Perhaps I'm really controlling and I just like to be in the driver's seat Which I will admit is the case and of course with midnight mystery club I get to do that and so I'm thankful that I get to do that Levar lets me to do that to some extent so we have a good relationship in that regard

At least in the environment where you're writing for other people, you don't get to be in that. And so it's still fun. I love the people I worked with. Great people. We had a good time, but I always feel like I have a, I tend to judge what I do by how it feels six months, two years, six years later. Like to me, my favorite songs, not just by myself, but by, by anybody are the ones that a lot of times I didn't like or

They didn't hit me as much the first time I heard them. Like wasn't I didn't like it. It just I didn't my brain didn't fully comprehend what I was hearing. And after six months, I was obsessed with him. And I still listen to those songs and maybe they came out 20, 30, 40 years ago. And I still can listen to them all day long. And almost the opposite is true. Like songs that were very interesting and appealing to me early on. They had a really short shelf life.

And I don't really listen to them as much anymore. And there's artists like that for me. And so I think I look back on that period of time where I was forced to kind of be under the gun, come up with stuff and create. I still, I'm so thankful for it. I still had fun doing it, but it was perhaps more in that category of songs that as time went on, I wasn't necessarily as proud of the work that I did. It wasn't to me what I would like to have done. It just didn't feed that feeling.

with Midnight Mystery Club, not every song, but I would say more often than not, we're able to do stuff that I tend to grow to love even more than I did on day one. And that's, I think that is part of that process, is developing that muscle that sees the light at first morning, though you're not there yet in the process. You're pushing through because you've seen the finish line enough times.

David Paul Newell (01:35:02.097)

to make you realize that part of the process is that you, like you're saying, you have to power through some nights. Like some nights it's just like, I just got to finish this to make sure that I finished it. I got to keep working on it so that I don't give up on it. But after a while, that becomes easier and easier because you finished it, you look back on it and you know that perhaps it's a little bit of a misconception, but I think when I was younger and naive in making music, I thought great songs just appear out of nowhere magically.

Like the good stuff you make, you hear all these musicians talking about it. We were in the studio and I wrote the song in five minutes and we recorded it. It was done at the end of the day. And you just go, that's what it's like to make great music. You don't hear all the times about how difficult it was to make really great songs that took a long time and that were super challenging and ran into tons of issues. Like what was it I think I heard it like beat it, had like 93 mixes or something like that before they settled on mix number two.

And so like you go, well, that wasn't an easy process. That was sounds like a nightmare, but, but like, always, I always feel like when I was younger, I was naive. I, I thought that good songs just kind of came to you. So my tendency to like, go, well, this isn't working. Like, I'm not feeling this. Then this must not be good because it's not coming naturally. This must not be worth it because it's not moving under its own momentum.

Brian Funk (01:35:59.136)

Thanks

David Paul Newell (01:36:26.455)

and I'm forcing it. So I'm going to move on to something else that doesn't feel like I'm forcing it. And I think that was a total misconception about the process that I grew out of and that now I kind of go, no, many times it's the opposite. Many times it's like there becomes a point in most songs where you kind of go, is this working? Is this a struggle? I'll save a version of that there in Ableton and I'll label that as one thing and then I'll duplicate that session and then I'll move on from there, you know?

And then I'll go, okay, cool. Well, I'm just going to continue to ride this out. If at any point I go, I've made some wrong turns, I'm now more lost than ever. I have a version I can go back to, but, but yeah, but I feel like I seldom ever do. It's always like, you know, it's just, that's part of the process. You hit, sometimes you hit walls, sometimes you hit these things and, then you learn to have fun, even in the, the challenging times of working, even in the challenging times where everything's not falling into place magically.

Brian Funk (01:36:55.017)

Hmm.

David Paul Newell (01:37:24.493)

you're having fun hitting your head against the wall a little bit to kind of come up with something new.

Brian Funk (01:37:30.547)

Hmm. Yeah, that's cool. That's a great place to wind up, you know. Having fun doing it.

David Paul Newell (01:37:37.752)

Yeah, Yeah, trying to.

Brian Funk (01:37:41.375)

I'm excited to hear the product of it all. So you said that's going to be July where the telescope comes out. Cool.

David Paul Newell (01:37:49.708)

Yeah, so telescope comes out on july 10th. We'll have a handful of singles coming out Probably starting in march and then we'll be releasing singles pretty much all the way through up to the album release I only advise for you will be out on april 3rd And that's actually one of the few songs that's not going to be on the album telescope But that's just released as a single right now But perhaps one day we'll we'll put that out in another group

but Telescope will be out in July. And then, yeah, I think if people are curious, they wanna find out more, they can check us out on our website, which is midnightmysteryclub.com. There's a button there that just says join the club. And if you join the club, you'll find out about all the new stuff. And we try to like release music to people that follow us online before we even release it anywhere else. So I think right now, if you sign up on the website, you should.

join the club, it'll send you an email right away and you can get, I only have eyes for you, even before it comes out. So if you're watching this before July, or before April 3rd, do that now. And probably do that anyway, because we'll probably send you music. If you want stuff, we'll send it to you. If you don't want it, don't download it. But yeah, but it'll be there if you want it. So, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:38:52.905)

That's cool.

Brian Funk (01:39:06.665)

That's awesome. So we've got some stuff to look forward to and, yeah, man, it's, it's been really great to talk to you. You know, we've had those interactions and, it's funny how you find sometimes people that have like kind of gone a very similar path, you know, with getting started and how we come from, we've got roots in our beginnings and all this. but it, yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:39:15.371)

Thanks, man. It was great. Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:39:23.882)

Right?

David Paul Newell (01:39:29.707)

Yeah.

Only took us 10 years to do this, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:39:36.069)

Overnight success in 10 years, right? That kind of thing. but it's because you you love it and It's definitely apparent talking to you. So I'm glad you shared that all with us and spread that joy and inspiration to people listening. I'm sure You said midnight mystery club comm right and then I know that it's all linked We get socials and all of that from there, too So I'll put these in the show notes as well so people can check it out

David Paul Newell (01:39:46.236)

Cheers buddy.

David Paul Newell (01:40:04.001)

Cool. Awesome. Thanks bud. Thanks for having me, man. This was great. Really fun. Yeah.

Amani and I discussed the challenges artists face from creating music to releasing and sharing it with the world. Amani has powerful insights that can help musicians develop a strong body of work, while making constant progress and enthusiasm in their craft.

Listen on Apple,Spotify,YouTube

Links:

• Amani's Website - https://www.amaniexperience.com

• Amani's Coaching - https://www.amaniexperience.com/coaching

• Amani’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/amaniexperience

• Book a Call with Amani - https://www.amaniexperience.com/call

• Bird by Bird by Ann Lamont - https://amzn.to/3PGjxIb

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.17)

Welcome Amani, nice to have you here today.

Amani Roberts (00:04.43)

Thank you very much, Brian. I'm excited to be here and chat with you.

Brian Funk (00:08.992)

Yeah, you know, I'm picking up on your enthusiasm right away. It's something I noticed in some of the video work that you have posted online. And I guess that's gotta be a crucial role if you're gonna be an artist, if you're gonna be a producer, if you're gonna be somebody that's trying to share things with the world. If you're not enthusiastic, you know, it's gonna be tough to find people to become enthusiastic for you.

Amani Roberts (00:29.294)

Yeah.

I would agree. It would translate very quickly to people if you weren't enthusiastic about your artwork, for sure. Yeah.

Brian Funk (00:38.22)

I think even a lot of the artists that come across as kind of just the artist, know, this is important, they do really deeply care, you know, just even get to that point to even share any kind of art with the world.

Amani Roberts (00:53.046)

Yeah, yeah, because when they they share the art, they put themselves out there for people to love it, hate it, criticize it. You remember what Erica Badu said? She said, I'm an artist and I'm sensitive about my, you know, stuff, paraphrasing. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10.964)

It's kind of funny though, because you have to develop a really thick skin as well. Because I don't know of too many other lines of work where rejection is just kind of the norm. It's really most of what people will see. Or if they're lucky, I think probably even indifference is really the big one.

Amani Roberts (01:34.838)

Yeah, yeah, which indifference is worse. Rejection, consistent rejection is what I would add to what you said, because for every 99 nos, you might get one yes, but you never remember the yes or always remember the no's. And then when you meet people who don't even respond or don't even care, that that hurts even more because indifference, think they say hate is not the opposite of love. It's really indifference, so to speak. So that that kind of relates to that.

Brian Funk (02:01.74)

Yeah, I've heard that too. It's not hate, it's just no feeling at all. Because a lot of good art is polarizing. Some people love it and other people, they don't get it, they don't like it, it rubs them the wrong way.

Amani Roberts (02:05.358)

Yeah, that's worse. Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (02:14.104)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (02:17.462)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Brian Funk (02:22.014)

So you've got some experience in the business as an artist. Do you want to tell us a little about how you got to where you are? And now you're coaching, you're speaking, you're helping artists with their art. So you don't come out of nowhere with this. You've got the chops to back it up.

Amani Roberts (02:32.856)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, thank you. It wasn't an overnight success. Really started as a DJ, probably now almost 20 years ago in LA. Just DJing local spots and then a close friend of mine told me I should go to Scratch Academy to learn really the real way how to DJ. So I went to that program and went through six plus an extra semester because I failed one of my final classes. I had to retake it, which was quite humbling but very rewarding.

Then I went back to Scratch Company for music production school and then all the way still performing, getting to bigger venues, concerts, and then private events, which was really good. And then I went to Berklee College of Music, get my master's in music business because I was a professor and I love being a professor. And then after that, just continuing to grow, wrote two books.

which is on the subject of music. One was basically taking the time slots of a DJ set and relating it to growing a business. That was the first one that came out in 2020. Then I wrote a book on the history of R &B groups, which came out a year ago. That made the USA Today bestseller list. And then just still performing and now I'm more into speaking. I bring music to the stage and then I coach the nine to five creative, basically people who work in nine to five, but

want to be are currently musicians and I help them kind of learn about making the best business decisions and then sometimes I'll work with them as well. So that's kind of a quick summary. That's my, you know, my history.

Brian Funk (04:12.787)

Right. Were you teaching in person at Berkeley?

Amani Roberts (04:16.952)

So I took classes online at Berkeley because it was during the pandemic. And so I went to the online program and then you could go there like once a year. And then I teach in person at Cal State University Fullerton. I teach music business there and I've been there now. It will be eight years in August. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (04:36.117)

Nice, very good. Yeah, I teach a music production, a sampling class with Ableton Live at Berkeley for the online. And I love it. It's been a real, I feel like I learned the most every semester, you know, cause you're listening to people's work and how they're interpreting the assignments and just being exposed to different styles of music, different approaches. And also just in our live classes, when they ask questions, go, yeah.

Amani Roberts (04:44.236)

that's great.

Brian Funk (05:05.545)

Yeah, okay, yeah. And even if you don't know the answer, you wind up doing the research so you can help them out later. Teaching is a great way to learn anything.

Amani Roberts (05:06.018)

Yeah, exactly.

Amani Roberts (05:12.078)

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, I love it. I tell my students the first day of class, the last day of class, say the first day I say I want to learn as much from you all as you all going to learn from me. And then the last day of class like see, I learned as much from you as you all learn from me. And so I agree with you. The questions we got to put in the parking lot because I got to come back to them and do research. So and then just to learn about like their musical taste, the musicians that they're feeling, how they really it's like technology.

What are they using to discover music, keep track of it, how they use technology? When I was like, I'll say coming up, but when we've heard a song we liked, we try to shazam it or write down the cover, the title of it. But now they'll just remember a lyric and type in the lyric into Google and that's how they find songs. It's so fascinating just how different they do research. So they teach me about these different apps. There's one, I have to find the name of it where...

Brian Funk (06:02.283)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (06:12.672)

Instead of doing a website, you'll just have a splash page and you can engage with the artists that way because it'll take you to different links. My students were the one that told me about LELO first in terms of texting and everything. Every class, I'm writing down notes and taking notes for sure.

Brian Funk (06:30.133)

that like a Linktree type of site? Where they Yeah.

Amani Roberts (06:32.29)

The splash page, yes. Lalo is doing the direct text messaging to your fans and that's how you collect their cell phone numbers and engage with them. The two I've kind of discovered that work well is like Lalo and I use Subtext because I'll send out music business news like twice a week and Subtext is also good when that's pretty popular with musicians. You also have Community and then the one that Ryan Leslie created, his is Superphone I believe.

Brian Funk (07:00.501)

Wow, so these are all direct to the cell phone, text message? Okay, so I've always found email to be the most effective way to reach people. mean, social media posts now, especially maybe back in the day when we first started social media, when you got the chronological feed, people would see your stuff, but once it became algorithmic and boosting the posts, suddenly you're getting no eyes.

Amani Roberts (07:04.706)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (07:28.16)

But email was at least consistent, but even email is so polluted with spam and stuff, but right to the phone, that's pretty cool. That's very direct.

Amani Roberts (07:33.112)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (07:39.694)

Yeah, that will... If you can get a fan's or a supporter's phone number and they give it to you, that's very precious. I still think email is valuable, although there's a lot of noise, because at least you own your email list. Like one thing I teach and train my artists is like, let's find a good lead magnet for you to put on your website so you can incentivize people who are visiting to just give you their email address, whether it's be an acapella version of a song.

Brian Funk (07:47.787)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (08:08.03)

or maybe it's a PDF of how to produce a certain beat or add a filter, something of value that you can get their email address and that way you can create more direct one-on-one conversations. If you can also get their cell phones at the same time, that's even more valuable because then you can really talk to them directly and that's what you'll see some big artists do because you want to get them into your ecosystem, into your kind of community and grow from there.

Brian Funk (08:33.897)

Hmm. I would imagine that that's not a direct link back to your cell phone,

Amani Roberts (08:39.528)

No, you would use like a special, special phone like, you know, subtext they give you a kind of a burner phone for lack of a better word. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (08:46.643)

Yeah. Okay. I guess I could see how that could be really good up to a certain level. And then it's like, my God, you know. but I have to imagine this probably different rules and etiquette to that kind of communication as opposed to, I mean, social media, can kind of blast and spam because they'll look at if they want to, they'll see it if they want to email is a little more delicate.

Amani Roberts (08:54.754)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (09:16.142)

Yeah, and it stopped.

Brian Funk (09:16.683)

But I would have to imagine cell phone, text message. Do you find there's any kind of convention with that? Is there a certain type of message you might send on a cell phone compared to, say, an email?

Amani Roberts (09:20.248)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Amani Roberts (09:30.51)

I think it's got to be quick and to the point and random. If you have a new song coming out and you're offering your fans early access, you could say, okay, you've got 48 hours to listen to this track before the rest of the public sees it. People like that because that's inter-sider access. It's really sharing, much less so selling. However, if you have a concert or show that's coming up,

And the good thing about cell phones is you can geo-target it. So say you have a show coming up in Atlanta. You can say, for all my people who are based in Atlanta, let me send them a text message saying, okay, pre-sales are going to open 36 hours from my concert. That's going to be Atlanta at this place. If you're interested, hit this link and get access. So if it's short, direct it to the point and you're not spamming people, but it offers value quickly and gives them that insider feeling.

then it works. But it can't just be little things here and there about all just put up a new post on Instagram or like this or like that. It's got to be really purposeful and really provide that feeling of being a VIP.

Brian Funk (10:26.506)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (10:37.022)

Hmm. Do you recommend any kind of frequency to that kind of communication?

Amani Roberts (10:42.574)

It depends on how often you're putting out content like releasing new music or you're having shows. So weekly can work if you have a lot of stuff coming out, but at least once a month so people don't forget about it either. So you kind of want to work that balance between a week to a month and just make sure it continues to be purposeful and you have a good call to action so they can take action.

Brian Funk (10:55.434)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (11:06.844)

Mm-hmm. That's kind of the new funny world we live in, right? Where you get forgotten about. You don't come out with new music in a year and forget it. You're off the radar. Whereas in the past, you could go a couple years. It was sort of understood. An artist might take some time, but not so much. guess you don't get to make those...

Amani Roberts (11:13.57)

Yes.

Amani Roberts (11:18.946)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (11:26.83)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (11:34.878)

big concept albums and then show up out of nowhere. Very few artists.

Amani Roberts (11:39.246)

Unless your name is Rihanna, then you don't have to come up with any music and you're getting more streams and you're getting, you know, growing. That's the exception to the rule, but you have to at least share content, share behind the scenes, even if you're not releasing music, but you're still having activity. Maybe you have a show here or show there. Just show that you're still getting the work done and that will really...

your fans at ease to let them know that you're still doing work and they still can see what you're up to and maybe you know you release maybe it's an official track it's like unofficial or an EP or you do a collaboration or you sing with someone you just have to show activity consistently in your own cadence you don't have to bombard people but they just like the fans like to know that you're still kind of with them on on the road so to speak yeah yeah yeah

Brian Funk (12:28.798)

Hmm. Yeah. Your journey is continuing. And now, yeah, we have a lot of fun creative ways to do that sort of stuff now. And it's not, it doesn't always have to be such a huge production. can just be kind of showing up and even, I'm in the studio. Here's the beat or we're putting together.

Amani Roberts (12:48.078)

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You can go live for five or 10 minutes. They're different. It's much easier now. You could say, you know, I'm doing this or I'm going to this concert or on vacation. You know, just kind of let people know you're OK and you're working on things and you're not just, you know, disappearing. Now, some artists can get away with disappearing and coming back completely. But for the majority of artists, you just have to continue to show activity so your fans will continue to support you and be ready.

Brian Funk (13:18.622)

Yeah, I guess that those are the artists that have really made an impact, a huge splash, their superstar status, where the news is chasing them, right? Yeah, Rihanna, like you said, someone like that.

Amani Roberts (13:29.374)

Exactly. Remember Rihanna, she's got other ventures. She got Fenty. So she got her whole beauty company. She's in movies. So she's created a brilliant kind of just different ways to reach people. So she's not releasing music, but she's been in a bunch of movies. She's got new products coming out. Like she always stays top of mind. And that's kind of the new model for artists is like, what else can you do?

besides your art to really stay top of mind. Whether it's a certain sponsorship opportunity, maybe you're dabbling into acting, maybe you start a podcast, different things you can do to stay top of mind so it's not always just about singing. Music.

Brian Funk (14:10.73)

Right. This day and age, right, where there's so much content, whether it's human-made or not, there's more than ever. To just show that kind of person side of you, the human side of you, seems to be more important than ever. I think it's our saving grace in the world we're entering.

Amani Roberts (14:22.926)

the

Amani Roberts (14:38.924)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (14:39.078)

having humanity and sharing that.

Amani Roberts (14:42.05)

Yeah, yeah, I agree. The more we get into using AI, the more we thirst and desire human experiences in person, just talking to a real person that is authentic and is not perfect.

Brian Funk (14:50.355)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (14:57.15)

Yeah, yeah, they're interesting. They're... And it's like you said, like, for me as a kid, I was wearing like ripped jeans and flannel shirts because I love Nirvana and the grunge movement, you know? And Rihanna's got makeup and movies and things that she's doing and fashion and those are things you don't get with just... It's not just the content.

Amani Roberts (14:59.758)

You

Brian Funk (15:22.12)

that you're putting out. It's also the person there. And it's almost always the first question I ask when I hear a song that I like, who is that? Who, who, who, who are the people behind that? And I guess that's probably made or break my enjoyment of the music many times. Like, it's them? Like you feel bad that you like it. Maybe it's, you know, for whatever reason, an artist you're not that down with and...

Amani Roberts (15:30.776)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right.

Amani Roberts (15:41.55)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (15:46.36)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (15:49.926)

suddenly it changes your taste in the song or makes you like it more. cool. That's,

Amani Roberts (15:52.876)

Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. That's funny. Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:01.489)

So I wonder if you find some connections with DJing and performing like that to also speaking in conferences or in classrooms or just in that kind of sharing of information. Do you see a similar performance aspect?

Amani Roberts (16:24.282)

Yeah, definitely with speaking in the classroom. think one of the most important skills as a DJ and yet one of the hardest skills to master because it's always changing is how to read a room. I think that you have to do the same thing when you're speaking. You have to read the room when you're teaching. mean, you definitely have to read the room because if students are starting to of doze off, get on their phones, leave, go to the bathroom, you have to really, really figure out ways to keep people's attention. I think that's a

Brian Funk (16:35.049)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (16:53.838)

distinct crossover when it comes to DJing, performing, to speaking. In addition, I bring the music to the stage. Whenever I'm speaking, I'm going to be playing music. I prefer to have my turntables up there so that I tell a lot of stories because I speak about creativity. I tell a lot of stories and use different groups and artists' journeys to exhibit the point. For example, if I tell a story about persistence, I might talk about the Supremes.

and how the Supremes were first signed and they were only allowed to clap hands on songs. And then eventually they got through to being able to sing backup. Then they were able to release their own music. They were called within Motown at first the No-Hit Supremes, but then they kind of blew up and went on an amazing run. So that's persistence, resilience. I like to tell a story either about the group, The Whispers. The R &B group took them 23 years to get their first Billboard 100 Top 10 song.

Even if I'm talking to younger students, I love to talk about a Chappell Rhone and how she released Pink Pony Club, then was dropped from the label five months later. Then she went home, was so humble she had to work in a drive-through coffee place, then came back to LA, got signed to a smaller label. Then eventually she kept at it. Her Friday, her first break was touring on her own smaller venues.

Then she was able to open up for Olivia Rodrigo for her, I think it was the Bern, I forget the name of the tour, Guts Tour. And then she was able to kind of continue to grow, got the Grammy for best new artist last year. Then just in November of this past year, Pink Pony Club hit over a billion streams. And so that was all, because she pretty much started putting up YouTubes in 2013 under her real name of Kaylee. And then she just reached

The billion streams on Pink Pony Club 12 years later, which in the music industry is relatively quick, if we're being honest. 12 years is not long, but for her it was long because we like to count the pandemic as dog years. She was right in it during the pandemic. I just like to tell different stories like that when I speak. It's always about music, performing. If I don't have my turntables, I have a little stream deck that can stream the music.

Brian Funk (18:52.681)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (19:03.451)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (19:14.872)

That's kind of my long answer to your question about performing and the kind of differences and what I bring across.

Brian Funk (19:18.153)

Hmm.

Yeah, reading the room, right. Of course. What is the reaction going on here? That is tough. Especially when you have a plan. As a teacher, I can relate to that. You got the plan and you're just watching it crash and it's just not hitting.

Amani Roberts (19:26.412)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (19:36.77)

Yes. So you got to pivot. got to adjust. One thing that I've learned is that if you have a plan and it's not working for teaching, I always have a couple backup activities, whether it's a video we can watch, whether it's a game we can play, then if all else fails, everyone loves trivia. So if you can create some trivia questions based on the lesson and give out some prizes, that works well too. And so...

Just having some backup plans which comes through experience because you know it works and what doesn't work. I try to for my lessons, I'm not sure how long your classes are. Most of my classes are about an hour and 15 minutes. I try to break it up in lecture at the beginning because I have their attention then. Then we do videos or something in a group. Then we'll come back and do sharing and talking as a group. Then we'll have an in activity which is some sort of gamification. Then open Q &A and then we're finished.

five or six different ways to teach. Some people are good visual learners. Some people are good learning. Some people learn by feeling, touching, experiencing. So if you can touch those each lesson, then you'll get more people involved because they'll know that they're going to have their preferred way of learning as part of the lesson. But that only came through a lot of learning and a lot of crashing and burning.

Brian Funk (20:58.697)

Yeah. Well, I, my Berkeley classes are usually pretty good and pretty good at, you know, nice energy. People want to be there. They paid money and they're excited and they're, we're talking about making music. We all love it. So everyone's excited. My day job is high school English teacher. This is a much different crowd. I mean, there's no way to.

Amani Roberts (21:09.292)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (21:17.39)

Wow.

So you get to practice twice a day. Wow, high school English.

Brian Funk (21:29.284)

hide it or you know it's it's not hidden they don't care if they don't not feel on it they'll put their head down like they don't feel bad they gotta go to the bathroom like mid big moment of lesson oh yeah yeah Johnny you yeah you with me okay can I go to the bathroom you know so that all that stuff but it does teach you about transitioning changing pace and

Amani Roberts (21:33.88)

Yeah, yeah. That's funny. Yeah.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (21:48.352)

yeah, wow.

Brian Funk (21:58.323)

You know, and they don't want to be there, you know, and if you told them they didn't have to come, even no matter how much they love you, they love your class, like they wouldn't be there.

Amani Roberts (22:04.822)

Yeah, yeah, that's true. It's funny. High school English. So I use, do you ever have them read or study like Edgar Allan Poe? So it's funny because I use Edgar Allan Poe as a way to teach the different types of media that musicians have. So I take Edgar Allan Poe and we always ask, what's your favorite Edgar Allan Poe story or book or whatever? They'll share what theirs are. Then I say, well, take his last name. And when you look at marketing,

Brian Funk (22:14.802)

Yeah, sure.

Amani Roberts (22:34.422)

You have to do, you can do paid marketing, which is like ads you buy. You can have owned marketing, which is your website, maybe social media, your email list. They could have earned, which is when a magazine will write about you, not for fee or word of mouth. So I will use Edgar Allen Poe's so that they remember paid, owned and earned and it works very well. So that's my high school English reference for you. Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:57.53)

Hmm. Yeah, that's good. It's a good memory tool as well. Just having those seemingly random connections that you're making. Well, there's an artist who, you know, even in his day really did not see the fame. I don't think he died knowing we'd be talking about him and we'd be reading them in classrooms.

Amani Roberts (23:07.042)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (23:22.092)

Yeah. Yeah, very true. Yeah.

Brian Funk (23:25.722)

Sometimes that's the way it goes, persistence or something. But he did build quite the body of work.

Amani Roberts (23:29.612)

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Amani Roberts (23:35.654)

Haha, we like that word, body of work. Yes, he put the work in, released all his art and it kind of, you know, when you plant seeds in a garden, his garden grew to be very, very lush over time.

Brian Funk (23:46.249)

So how do you bring that up with your, whether it's in your seminars or your students, this concept, the body of work, probably especially because I would guess a lot of those people are pretty early in their careers, so they're eager and they want everything to be the thing and probably putting a lot of weight on everything they're doing.

Amani Roberts (24:06.051)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (24:09.624)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (24:13.218)

Well, I try to use different examples of musicians they can relate to to show them what's possible. So a lot of, know, especially the younger generation, they love Taylor Swift, but I'll show them just how many albums she's released, what else she's released in between the albums, the ups and downs she's gone through to try to get back her songs, the dispute she had with Spotify when she took her music off.

So then they can see, okay, she's been releasing music for a good 15, 20 years. She's got this album, that album, she's telling a story, that's her body of work. Then we'll take an artist that maybe is a little bit more underground that they like, and I'll say, let's look at their body of work. And they might have one album, one or two albums out, they're releasing a third single. But then I'll also talk about, well, let's look at their tour. So let's see where they've gone on tour. Did they go on to a nightclub tour?

Okay, what cities did they visit? Then did they graduate to go to an opener for maybe a small amphitheater? Okay, so they're adding to their body of work. Then let's add in their merchandise. What's some of their early merch they've had? T-shirts, hoodies, stickers. This is all part of their body of work. They've kind of growing, graduating along the way. So they see that. Then we'll go to someone maybe very famous. Like we'll use Dolly Parton a lot as an example because she has got an amazing body of work between being a songwriter.

a performer, a host, owning an amusement park, being in movies, writing movies, having a TV show, albums in different genres that she was dipping into. I said, okay, let's look at her body of work and then we see. I show them that. Then we have an activity, particularly in class. I'm sure you've seen the little memes or challenges where you have like, you have $10 to spend and you must pick four artists and there's some in the $5 and the four and the three and the two. I have four or five of them I use.

I have one for all female artists. I you have a female super group. Who are you going to pick? What really gets them is that I'll say, who do you want to take out of the grid or who do want to move up or down? You might have, I think the top of the grid was Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Dua Lipa, and someone else. At the bottom, had maybe Selena Gomez, Brandi, Jasmine Sullivan, and some other people.

Amani Roberts (26:32.172)

So let's say, no, we need to move Jasmine Sullivan up or Selena Gomez, you need to take her off and add this artist on. And I say, why? And I say, okay, well, this artist, she's got this album that came out, this album that came out and that. So, okay, you're talking about their body of work basically and what they're done and what they're doing. So when it gets to like body of work, I try to show them different ways to evaluate it. And if someone gets it when I tell them the story about Dolly Parton, that's good.

Brian Funk (26:45.682)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (26:57.218)

But someone might get it when I break down and show them the grid. Like, I see. Well, this is why Lady Gaga, she's up on the five dollar level because not only does she have the acting, the singing, she has a residency in Vegas, et cetera. So that's kind how I teach and show people the different stages in terms of your body of work, but the importance of it. The best example is that I say, OK, you know that Dahlia Parton, she was very, very young in her career when she wrote I Will Always Love You. And then I say, you know, there was a time period in the middle.

where Elvis Presley wanted to cover that, but he wanted to take all the publishing from it and Dolly was like, absolutely not, because that's where the money is, the long money is. But then Whitney Houston came along and they were able to come to an agreement and the song makes her more money than any song she's ever produced. So you can see how something early on in your body of work can pay off later. You just have to all the rights. So then they learn about publishing and things like that. So I try to show them different examples, but get them to experience it along the way too.

Brian Funk (27:46.696)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (27:56.09)

I did not know that about Elvis. And to turn down Elvis, of all people, that takes, she is cool, man. It's a great documentary I saw on her recently and I was just like, what a...

Amani Roberts (27:57.966)

Yes. Yes.

Yes, amazing human being, yes.

Amani Roberts (28:09.582)

Oh, let me know because I read about her, I would love to watch the documentary.

Brian Funk (28:14.693)

Yeah, I got to figure out what it was called. was a couple months back. Relatively new documentary, but you just left it being like, what a bad-ass person, you know? Really just real, through it all, so real too. Not on another wavelength where she's unrelatable. She's a regular person, but brilliant songwriter.

Amani Roberts (28:24.622)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, very rare.

Amani Roberts (28:38.862)

Yeah. Yeah. Agreed.

Brian Funk (28:43.205)

business person too. Because I don't know if there's a lot of people that would tell Elvis, nah, you can't cover my song if you're, because Elvis could probably do almost anything he wanted. yeah, for that to come along with Whitney Houston was, that was like the biggest song ever when it came out.

Amani Roberts (28:50.924)

Yeah. Yeah.

Basically.

Amani Roberts (29:01.655)

It was, yes.

Brian Funk (29:03.589)

I heard a story about her, which I don't know if it's completely true, but I like to believe it's true because this is something that I can use to motivate myself when I need motivation, that she wrote that song and Jolene in the same day.

Amani Roberts (29:14.093)

Okay.

Amani Roberts (29:19.35)

I would believe it. Yeah. Now do you know why she wrote that song? Do know why she wrote, will always love you?

Brian Funk (29:21.168)

Brian Funk (29:24.921)

No, I don't.

Amani Roberts (29:26.126)

So she used to be on a TV show and be the cohost with Porter Wagner. And he brought her on as like her cohort host and they would also have music and produce music and do the show. And she was leaving and he was very mad and wouldn't speak to her. So the only way she could get her message across to him was to write that song. So that song is really her letter to him.

Brian Funk (29:36.449)

She's leaving, Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:46.12)

I think that's in the documentary actually that you mentioned it. Yeah. So I don't know if I even heard it in the documentary or just, you know, kind of myth and legend, but that she wrote them in the same day. And that is the thing that helps me a lot. Those days when I got time to make the music, but it's like, I don't know, I'm tired. Maybe I'll sit on the couch today, you know, cause I really believe that each time you sit down to

Amani Roberts (29:48.622)

Yeah,

Brian Funk (30:15.463)

create something is different. if after we speak, I've just spoken to you, I'm at a certain energy level, maybe the coffee that I'm drinking now is still kind of kicking and feeling good after having a nice conversation, I'm a different me than I will be say tomorrow morning. And what I'm going to write is going to be different. And whether I'm with people and that even if they're not writing the song with me, just because they're there, it's going to come out differently. So

It's like if she didn't sit down that day to write, she doesn't have those two songs. I don't know that you write those songs the next day. I think you kind of have to be there at the right time, which is a lot of my motivation to show up and kind of remember like, well, what Dolly Parton did, or something like that.

Amani Roberts (30:49.688)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (31:05.442)

Yes. Yeah.

Well, yes, that's true. And she's prolific. So she's probably still got thousands of songs in the archives that haven't even been released yet because she would just write and write whether she was on the tour bus in the hotel at home on a walk. She that's what she first started doing is writing songs and she's very skilled at it. So absolutely. I think it's the same thing as like when we're DJing. No two crowds are ever the same. They're always in a different emotional state, different people, different things going on. So I kind of draw that kind of

Brian Funk (31:32.433)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (31:38.85)

comparison to what you said.

Brian Funk (31:40.677)

Hmm, sure, yeah, different day, different news cycle, different venue. Yeah, and then you're different as the DJ here. You set them up with a different track maybe than you did yesterday and some.

Amani Roberts (31:45.358)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (31:52.59)

Yes, yes, we have our old, we have our ones that we can always go to, but we try to set it up in different ways. And then we have to mix in new music too. Yeah.

Brian Funk (32:01.543)

Mm-hmm. Mm.

I think that there's something to that that when we create, kind of when we do anything, I guess, really, but there's this whole chain reaction of things and ripple effects that all have to come together for something to happen exactly as it does. Almost like our planet, you know, just the right space, just the right age of the sun and all that. All the coincidences have to line up and...

Amani Roberts (32:30.273)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (32:36.399)

I like that way of thinking because I think it adds a little sort of magic to every moment. That, okay, like I'm gonna sit down today and this is gonna be a one shot only, one of a kind moment. Gets me through the procrastination sometimes because I face that a lot. I love making music like more than anything.

Amani Roberts (32:53.717)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:00.955)

But when I have the time to do it, I'm very often like, okay, well, maybe I'll just do the dishes. I'll clean a little, because I know I can get that done. I don't know if I'm gonna make anything good today, I can accomplish my chores.

Amani Roberts (33:06.178)

Yeah, yeah.

Amani Roberts (33:11.608)

Well, they say procrastination is a form of fear. so, know, fear of failure, but fear of success. That's probably one of the bigger fears that people don't consider. Like, how can I do better than what I did yesterday? And when yesterday I made an amazing song, how can I make an even bigger one? So I think procrastination is born a lot from fear.

Brian Funk (33:17.287)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:37.273)

I agree and I know it. I feel it and it doesn't get better. Like what the hell, you know? I find my experience, I know what I'm doing more. And this is one of the last video podcasts I did was about that. Like I've been doing it more and more and yet it's not easier. It might even be harder. Maybe I'm thinking about it too much because

Amani Roberts (33:40.084)

Me too! Me too!

Amani Roberts (33:46.636)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (34:06.373)

The first time I pick up a new instrument or try a new plugin or something, it's exciting and I'm playing with it. And I guess the expectation is low because I don't really know how to work it yet and fun things happen. But then once I learn it, when I get accustomed to it, then it's like, well, you should know what you're doing now. Something good should happen. And then that kind of cloud is hanging over everything I'm doing and I'm questioning if this is good. Am I doing it? Am I?

Amani Roberts (34:24.95)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (34:35.205)

living up to where I should be at this point. And not a lot of good comes out of that thinking.

Amani Roberts (34:38.702)

Yeah, that's no, I just got to kind of what do they say? Acknowledge it and keep moving forward is the best way. Just acknowledge it. So we're not going to pretend it's not there and then just keep moving forward so it doesn't completely railroad the creative process.

Brian Funk (34:58.439)

So take a minute, realize it's happening.

Amani Roberts (35:01.388)

Yeah, acknowledge it and then just keep moving forward and try to get something done. The same thing happens with writing. Writing a book, you can get stuck very easily. Or you get stuck editing it, which is the same thing as you're trying to add a filter or add some new things to a song that you're producing or creating. You can get stuck in minutiae. Whereas if you would just write and don't edit until the end, that would help because it's the editing and the overthinking in the middle that stops many of us.

Brian Funk (35:31.463)

Yeah, I can see that as an English teacher, someone that likes to write. And as a music producer where you got the loop, it sounded kind of cool. then, all right, let's start compressing the kick drum and let's do the fine detail work before we have the whole canvas filled out. And the best thing you can get at that point is a really cool corner of your canvas or section of your song and everything else is empty or

Amani Roberts (35:36.785)

Yes!

Amani Roberts (35:42.051)

Yeah.

Exactly. just, you know.

Amani Roberts (35:49.858)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (36:00.94)

still underdeveloped. I find that with writing sometimes it's a little bit easier. I'll just read what I wrote yesterday and I'll fix that up.

Amani Roberts (36:09.646)

Don't do it. Don't do it. Yes, don't do it. I remember, I wish the book is around me somewhere. I have to get it because I always refer to it. It's Anne Lamott and she talks about Bird by Bird. Okay, so you know it. She talks about, I don't like the curse, but she talks about shitty first drafts. That's what we want to produce. That's good. I'm glad you know the book and you like it because it's really, really good, especially for the writing process.

Brian Funk (36:21.09)

I love that book. Yeah. Yeah.

huh.

Brian Funk (36:30.499)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (36:35.992)

It is. Sure, and it's all rooted in that story, I think, with her father about...

Amani Roberts (36:42.786)

her brother who's doing a report on the birds and he was stressed out because he waited to the last minute. said, father, just be patient. Let's just take it bird by bird. And they did the project and worked on that. And it's a great metaphor. Yeah.

Brian Funk (36:45.52)

Right.

Brian Funk (36:55.352)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, one thing at a time and it adds up eventually, you know? It's like the body of work. Like you just keep plugging away. Suddenly you have a body of work. Yeah, that book's full of great advice and...

Amani Roberts (36:59.022)

Yeah. This is true. is true. Yes.

Amani Roberts (37:13.166)

I recommend it to all of my authors. All of them. Yeah. It should be required reading.

Brian Funk (37:16.23)

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you can think it's literally about writing, but you can just take that and it's a metaphor for everything. Life, music, all that stuff. That's a lot of times when I'm talking to people on this podcast, I feel like we're talking about life, but we're doing it through the metaphor of music.

Amani Roberts (37:24.918)

Life. Yeah, life, exactly.

Amani Roberts (37:37.934)

I feel that way already. Yes, thank you.

Brian Funk (37:40.551)

Yeah, welcome. Welcome to the show. This is where we wind up. What are we really talking about here? Yeah, but I know that feeling of you want to perfect something and get it good, but it happens a lot in my mixes too where I'll work on, we got the drum track down. Okay, great. I'm going to get them sound really good. And yeah, now they sound great, right?

Amani Roberts (37:47.5)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (38:10.106)

But I've filled up the entire frequency range and my dynamic range. And now we got to add the bass and the guitar and the keys and all. There's no room. Right? So I got to dial it back anyway and change everything anyway. And I can very often find myself getting my work into this like moment of completion, but the idea is not there yet. Just as if I was doing a painting where I'm focusing on this first corner first.

Amani Roberts (38:17.166)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (38:34.904)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (38:39.694)

Hahaha

Brian Funk (38:41.294)

And you know, if you do any painting, you'll never really quite get those colors to match in the other corner, you know, cause you're to have to start over with your paints and that winds up happening. it's, but it is fear. I do agree. Cause the kind of editing stuff, the technical stuff that comes in when you start EQing and compressing things too early, that's not the...

Amani Roberts (38:49.506)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (39:07.48)

Huh.

Brian Funk (39:09.538)

artistic, well it can be artistic but it's not the creative part of writing the music and making the statements and all.

Amani Roberts (39:13.81)

yeah.

Yeah, fear holds so many of us back. Just fear of many, many things, but it's really, really the antithesis of the creative process.

Brian Funk (39:26.724)

Hmm. Yeah. It hasn't done so well. I guess sometimes you can channel it a little bit. And what you said about acknowledge it, I think is helpful. I know sometimes before live performances, I'll notice like, okay, I'm getting a little jittery. So all right, okay, here it is. I'd like to do like stretches and like, you know, a little warmup exercises and then, all right, we're gonna.

Amani Roberts (39:51.138)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:55.707)

this is going to be part of the, I guess like fertilizer or something for the show and then put it in there.

Amani Roberts (40:00.11)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (40:04.788)

I like it. Yeah, that's what you gotta do, for sure.

Brian Funk (40:10.416)

Do you find your students have any particular things they either keep coming back to or like stuff that artists struggle with in particular that you're able to help them through a bit? Any kind of common things that your experience has helped you through?

Amani Roberts (40:31.766)

Yeah, I would say the things that most of my students, whether it be in my class I'm teaching or my coaching students, clients, the fear of what people will think, fear of failure, fear what their friends will think, those are probably the three most common issues that you try to, because you know, if you're like a fractional artist manager, you're helping them with their creativity, but you're also kind of a therapist too. And so,

just making sure that they're well aware of the success they've already had. Really one success is they're showing up and creating because most people will not show up. They say 80 % of the game is showing up. And then if they've had some success in the past, just remind them of what they've achieved in the past, how well they did. And I feel sharing different stories, like I've shared a few stories with you about different artists, about some of the most famous artists have also struggled too.

I think that once people hear that, will ease a little bit of the fear and will give them some inspiration because like, okay, well, I didn't know that a Dolly Parton went through this or a Chaperone went through this or different groups had their struggles. People don't realize that because we don't talk about that, especially nowadays. It's all perfectly curated on Instagram and TikTok and everything. If you share stories, personal stories too, I tell them about how I mentioned it briefly in the beginning, like how...

I was at Scratch Academy and I didn't pass the last class. I missed it by two points. So I had to take it over again. It was very humbling. Everyone knew, but I was able to kind of check my ego at the door, come back, be of service to everyone in the class and get one of the highest scores ever for the final class, which there was no guarantee that I would pass because it's very subjective. We're performing. And just how you just said it, like I could be having a bad day. Maybe I got in a fight with like, you know, a girlfriend or maybe, you know,

Something happened in a family member is sick, so you're distracted. There's no guarantee that life is going to be perfect for you to perform. If I tell them the story about that and then I might show them a video reading different autobiographies, one of my favorite autobiographies from an artist is Charlie Wilson from the Gap Band and how he went from being very, very famous in the Gap Band to being homeless on drugs to now he's at a very high level again. I just think that a combination of all that, particularly stories.

Amani Roberts (42:57.646)

Letting people talk, letting them kind of analyze their fear, maybe even write about it. And then just continue to remind them of their success, which people seem to forget quickly. That's what I've used for all my coaching clients to help them get through some of their tougher times.

Brian Funk (43:14.629)

Yeah, the public opinion, the friend opinion even, the family opinion of it can be. Yeah, because I guess something that I've run into myself is this idea of sort of getting like psychoanalyzed by your art. Where I like to play around with characters in the songs and...

Amani Roberts (43:20.302)

Family opinion, that's the hardest, yeah.

Brian Funk (43:41.402)

They might be thoughts I had, but I don't necessarily believe it, but I'm playing around and exploring it and trying it on for size and maybe even making a little fun out of it. But I don't want to just have somebody be like, so what's going on with you, man? I heard what you said in that song. Or like wonder like, Hey, what is that? Is that about me or something like that? Where sometimes it's wordplay. Sometimes it's just.

Amani Roberts (43:59.117)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (44:03.576)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (44:09.379)

Yeah, there's that thing going on and that character exists somewhere in here. But I also know he's an idiot, but he's the star of the show today in this song. and yeah, that can, that can be a big one. I find that a lot. And I've noticed that with people too, that, they're like, well, you know, I don't know if I want to put this one cause it's going here and there and tricky waters to navigate.

Amani Roberts (44:17.012)

Right.

Amani Roberts (44:35.714)

Yeah.

Yeah, but I would always urge people to just release it because the people that you think are thinking about you, they're not thinking about you. And so just put it out there because it can also really, really resonate with someone who needs to hear it. So don't don't let them. I forget the right word, but don't prevent them from having access to the song because you're worried about someone else who might not even be thinking about it. Yeah.

Brian Funk (44:43.641)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (44:48.421)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (44:58.137)

Yeah, so often the case. There's that old expression, like when I was a kid, I was worried what everyone thought about me. And when I was like an adult, I stopped caring. And then when I got old, realized no one was thinking about me in the first place. yeah. Right. I found the body of work a good way around that. Just flood it, put as much as out there. So you got

Amani Roberts (45:11.31)

Yeah, exactly. Yes. The sooner you realize that, the better. Yes.

Amani Roberts (45:21.554)

Mm-hmm. Yes. Keep creating, keep putting work out there and the bigger the body of work, the less you'll be worried about what people think because, you know, there'll be so much out there. You'll be so focused on putting more things out, you'll have less time to worry about it, think about it.

Brian Funk (45:41.348)

I wonder if you have some thoughts or approach on people. I see people like this sometimes, especially through Berkeley, because now they've paid money, right? Sometimes people that have paid money for lessons and consulting and all of that, they're very invested in it. And sometimes those are the people that produce and release the least amount of work. They're working at it all the time, but they'd never quite take it to the finish line.

It's like, yeah, obviously you're investing, you're spending a lot of time and money in this. So what's going on? that's, I think it's a case by case thing, but I wonder how you approach that, that kind of person.

Amani Roberts (46:16.365)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (46:23.138)

Yeah. Yeah, we like to call that like the art of finishing. And so I kind of put that as a parallel because you'll see a lot of people who will invest by these classes, they'll invest in equipment and they never take action. That happens a lot. they get out there so worried about buying the next, you know, amp or the best microphone or this new software or these new plugins.

Brian Funk (46:29.273)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (46:51.48)

but they never ever take action or they take action but never finish. They love to start a project and never finish. And this is also true in life. People will talk about, I need to lose weight. I need to eat better. I need to get a new job. You know, I need to stop talking to this person, but they never do it. Once again, fear, fear of the process, fear of failure. So I love to live by the mantra of done is better than perfect. So...

I really try to encourage and coach and work with my artists and my people to let's just finish something. Let's finish something, put it out, check it and move on to the next. I try to walk them along the way of... We try to set up in small steps. Say if we're writing a song, we're producing a song, we've written the lyrics, check. Let's come back tomorrow, let's write some harmony, check. Let's write some melody, good. Now let's maybe create and just look for a reference track.

That's all we're going to do today. We're going look for a reference track of what you want the song to sound like. OK, we got a couple. Good. Now let's try to sing and produce and add drums to it. And maybe one day we add drums. Let's add some strings another day. Now we're to sing vocals. Now let's sing the ad libs. I find if you if you divide things up into little steps, it's like we were smaller playing Super Mario Brothers and we go from one level to the next level to the next level. Same way we love the ways our brains are wired. We love accomplishing things. Love gamification.

So if we can set up like a game and like we have 20 steps to get to, let's go to level one, level two. Okay, we're pause level two. Let's go out and get your favorite cup of coffee from Starbucks. It could be a sweet mocha, whatever. That's good. We did that today. Then we come back. It could be the next day of next week. We do three, four and five. Okay, let's go to your favorite restaurant for breakfast. That a lot of things that I love around food, but maybe you get to level 10. Okay, now we can reward yourself. You can buy something. Just set up.

Brian Funk (48:21.796)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (48:47.418)

small steps that are easy to accomplish that help you celebrate wins. You get a win, you're more encouraged to keep coming back and doing more. So I like to set that up with my people that I work with because it really keeps their inspiration high and their motivation high. And then we finish things and we just set up little games and do it that way. That's what I've seen, help people both finish and then help people take action. And I think those are the two things.

I just see more and more nowadays people just love to talk about doing something but never take action or they can't finish. That's what I do to help them along the process.

Brian Funk (49:27.522)

Yeah, well all that stuff feels like making progress. Like, I got the new mic and now it's going to sound great. Well, I got to learn how to use it now. So now I'm still, but I'm still being productive because I'm learning it, right? And well, if I had the mic and I probably need the amp or I need, so let me learn how to get this thing. And we're still doing stuff, but kind of not doing stuff at the same time. It's a sneaky thing.

Amani Roberts (49:32.512)

Ha ha ha.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta do this stuff and get things done for sure. Yeah.

Brian Funk (49:54.309)

But that's a nice approach. It's the kind of victory, it's a little bird by birdish, right? One step at a time. But you're also, like you said, highlighting those victories. Like, well, hey, look, we got to here. We did these, we did this, we did something today. We made progress. And it is important to point that out. Probably we would all love to show up one day and come out with the mastered

Amani Roberts (49:58.508)

Yeah, yeah, there you go. parallel. Nice callback. Nice callback there.

Brian Funk (50:24.16)

new number one hit, right? But the fact that you got the idea down, you got the maybe the sketch or maybe you got a new track layered. A friend of mine said this to me years ago. I think while I was working on the first solo album I ever made, he said, like, I know if each day I just record one part, eventually I'll have a finished album. And I kind of took that to heart. was like, okay.

Yeah, you're right, because I'm only going to put so many guitars. And at that time I didn't have infinite tracks. I was limited to, I think, like 16. So it's like, all right, yeah, that's 16 days. Right? And then that's two a month, kind of.

Amani Roberts (50:58.518)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (51:05.368)

There you go. Yep. Yep. There we go. That's 24 a year. I found that many of my artists, the songs that they finish that they don't like, a lot of people like it. Like for some reason the public will like it. And so that's what you'll hear a lot with artists. The songs that they think are going to be the best singles end up not being the best singles, but the songs that they kind of discounted end up being like really, really good songs that people love.

Brian Funk (51:11.95)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (51:33.922)

So that's why it's more important than ever to just release it. You never know. You could not like it, but it could really resonate with your fans or a certain people, certain group of people, and then you're off and running.

Brian Funk (51:43.909)

And like you said, it's almost wrong not to share it because there might be that person that really needs it. Yeah, maybe I was not connecting with it completely, but it hit on something for someone else. Sometimes too, you listen back to your old stuff and you're like, wow. I was like looking in the future here because this is where I'm at now.

Amani Roberts (51:48.408)

Yes. Yes.

Amani Roberts (51:56.928)

Absolutely.

Amani Roberts (52:04.536)

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Brian Funk (52:06.5)

At that point though, when I start getting in my head, creating and thinking like, this any good? Like, no, this chords are kind of basic and you know, I need to be more clever. I think sometimes to those artists, they don't even know when they're doing it in the moment anyway. They didn't think that was going to be the hit song. So even when you're actually doing it, you don't know. So it's almost pointless to even think about.

Amani Roberts (52:23.523)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (52:29.996)

Yeah. If we looked at the B-sides of singles, particularly back in the day, the B-sides of singles that ended up being bigger than the single, we could write encyclopedias. There's so many. Yes, there's so many. That's the beauty of back in the day, the B-sides. Nowadays, we have less B-sides because they just release things singly, but even some of the more hidden tracks on an EP could end up blowing up years later. Just look at Pink Pony Club. This song came out in April of 2020.

Brian Funk (52:36.515)

Hmm.

Some DJ just flipped it over.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (52:58.976)

It took that song five years, but then it kind of blew up and hit got a billion streams. Like the record label saw it wasn't doing well in five months and dropped her. They kept working the song and five years later, it really kind of hit the stratosphere. That's that's a good example of. What happens sometimes?

Brian Funk (53:19.534)

Yeah, I didn't know that. yeah, it was like one day, Chappelle Rowan, who is this pink pony? Like, why is everyone talking about this? Where did this come from? And I figured it just came out.

Amani Roberts (53:29.996)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's what many people think. Like I have this video. It was on social media. I use it in my speeches. It kind of the close out this portion of the story. It shows her. think she was at Auburn, Auburn University, and she was playing her Casio keyboard and singing that song about 40 or 50 people. People weren't paying attention to her. Then it fast forward to when she's singing that song at Lollapalooza. hundred fifty thousand people in Chicago and the crowd is chanting and everything.

And it's just an amazing, you get goosebumps when you watch it. It's an amazing video. And that just shows you the progress. And that was five years. It took more than five years.

Brian Funk (54:07.959)

Yeah, that is wild. One of my favorite things about YouTube is you can go back and look at the artists like before they were big. This video I watched recently of Rage Against the Machine playing at like just a fair, you know, like no one's there really. And you're just like, whoa, like, like how do they not know this is, but no one knew yet. it was, the fuse was lit and it was getting close to the bomb, but it just hadn't gone off yet.

Amani Roberts (54:15.511)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (54:19.707)

nice. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (54:28.824)

No one knew, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:36.749)

but you see everything is in place. There's a lot of good stuff of seeing artists just before and in hindsight you can recognize, course, look at this, but in those moments, and it's like, guess, five years is a long time, but ask Edgar Allan Poe, right? Like he didn't even get it in his lifetime.

Amani Roberts (54:48.142)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Amani Roberts (54:59.918)

Yes. Five years is not really, when you're looking at the, it's not really a long time. Like I think what's the saying, I heard Tony Robbins say this one time, people, I want to say they overestimate what they can do in a year, but underestimate what they can do in 10. I think that's the saying. And so that's very similar to, I wonder who said that because that has to be someone, I'll have to Google that. So you said that, but it's very true. Very true. Yeah.

Brian Funk (55:06.083)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (55:17.175)

Something like that, yeah.

Brian Funk (55:26.785)

Yeah, I've heard that sentiment that it's like compound interest or something kind of applies that way too. You think you're not making any money saving. Don't take financial advice from me because I'm not investing anything in anything, but I've heard people say that's how it works.

Amani Roberts (55:31.352)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (55:36.46)

Yeah.

Hahaha!

Yeah, but if you think remember the whole thing is if you you get a penny a day it compounds and soon you have like a million dollars. I think a penny a day over 30 days or something is there's some some math you double it every day.

Brian Funk (55:52.483)

Yeah, it double letters, Tomorrow I get two, tomorrow, next I get four.

Amani Roberts (55:58.488)

for after the end of 30 days, you have like a lot of money, I want to say.

Brian Funk (56:03.605)

I remember learning that in grade school and then asking my parents, hey, instead of like my a dollar a week allowance, what if you just gave me a penny every day and then the next day gave me two? They're like, get out of here.

Amani Roberts (56:14.168)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. When back then it could have helped, you know. Could have bought you another amp. well said, well said. Yeah, we don't want that. Maybe no amp then, no amp.

Brian Funk (56:22.328)

Yeah.

Then I'd have to learn that amp. good, then I can avoid the scary stuff.

Yeah, I'm a big believer these days in working real fast too, for this reason, just to accumulate that body of work and things. I like not giving myself the time to really question things. Just make, make, make, make, make, make, make. I definitely think there's something to be said of spending your time and crafting something. I just really find I am often...

going through that process, know, of going through all the levels of Super Mario Brothers as often as possible. I think, I'm sure you could get through that first level of Super Mario Brothers with your eyes closed. If you played at all. I've had my high school students play that game and they've run right into the first bad guy. like, what? Like, person I know my age is laughing at you, right?

Amani Roberts (57:06.264)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (57:15.907)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (57:22.75)

nice.

Amani Roberts (57:26.082)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (57:30.04)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (57:32.27)

But we've done that so many times, but you get to that last level and it's much harder. know, things get tricky and it's like in music and creating something is we don't get to that last level until the end. And if we don't get to the end, we never exercise that muscle and we don't get good at it. But when I, when I'm working fast and I'm doing that consistently, like I get in a flow and like that last level is as easy as that first part.

Amani Roberts (57:48.12)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (58:00.174)

jump right over that bad guy in the beginning just like I do the final boss, you know?

Amani Roberts (58:00.73)

Yeah, there you go. Yes, and you saved the princess, yes. But repetition helps, you've done it so much, it's like a strong muscle now.

Brian Funk (58:06.573)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:13.091)

But it's like a muscle because as soon as you miss a day at the gym, you're going backwards now. think you just that the treadmill is always going.

Amani Roberts (58:18.307)

death.

You gotta keep, yep, you gotta keep working the muscle, just like creativity. Just like creativity is a muscle, you gotta keep working that too, otherwise you'll become stagnant.

Brian Funk (58:31.837)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. How do you like the world as a writer? You got a couple of books and there's a nice form of torture you put yourself through, Writing is another dimension of hell.

Amani Roberts (58:33.166)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (58:38.626)

Ha

Amani Roberts (58:42.49)

yes, that is not only writing is torture, but then the whole releasing of the book process. Like when you finish writing it, you're only a third of the way done because then you have to do all the editing. Then you have to release the book. Then you have to promote the book. And that doesn't end for years. So the first time my first book writing really kind of tripped me up because when I got my first edits, I took it very personal and it.

cost me about four or five months in the process where I just put it down and didn't even want to look at it. As a result, my book came out in April 2020 in middle of pandemic. Whereas if I had checked my ego, maybe it would have come out sooner. I could have had a little bit more success early on. That was a very valuable lesson because when my second book came around, which took me an overall four and a half years to do the research and writing and finish and release, when I got the edits back, I did them right away. Check my ego, said, okay, I trust you. I believe you. What do need to do?

made the edits, which were significant, added what I needed to add and kept the process going. I suffered everything we've talked about today. I suffered through writing the second book, Imposter Syndrome. Who am I to write a book about R &B groups when there are many, many, many people out there who are more knowledgeable than me? Who am I to call it the quiet storm when that's like a celebrated radio format, but it actually worked out good that I called it that? Just all sorts of things. Fear. What if no one buys the book?

What if I don't? These are metrics that aren't really important, but what if I don't get on the USA Today Best Seller list? That really caught me up for the last month because I was working really hard, texting people, messaging, doing press on TV, podcast interviews. What if I'm doing all this work and I don't make the list? What if I do all this work and it's a flop? Even still, I just kept at it. I said, okay, I acknowledge it. Just keep at it. I had good people around me supporting me too.

That's another thing in the creative process. If you have people around you that aren't good for your creativity, it will stop you. I remember for me, I had someone around me I was dating that was not good for my creativity. I had to get away from that person and eliminate that person from my life so that I could keep the creativity and start back again. It took me about a good year, year and a half. In that four and a half years from the time I...

Amani Roberts (01:01:06.605)

I finished my thesis, which was December 2021. Then for me to start writing again, I went to a wedding in Chicago, I want to say it was summer of 2023. In that time period, I had written a little bit, I probably got 20 or 30 % of the work done just in that 2022 to 2023 time process, but I was stuck.

So then I got that person out of my life. Then I went on this writing retreat. So I went to the wedding a week early, Minnesota, the wedding was in Chicago, and I wrote for all week and probably finished 60 % of that book at that time period. And that was the ignition to really keep me off and running. I finished the rest at home, sent it to editing, the whole editing process and all that. So by the time I sent it to editing, was probably April or May of 2024. And we went through the process of the cover design.

adding in some other items. I wanted it to come out in Black History Month. In February 2025, the book came out. That was my journey. That's why writing can be very torturous depending on what's going on in your life and how you prioritize.

Brian Funk (01:02:20.546)

I got a couple of quick questions on that.

Amani Roberts (01:02:24.43)

Talk to me!

Brian Funk (01:02:28.456)

Okay. just for probably humorous sake, when you got your edits back, how much, most of it is probably cutting it out, right? Like too much, too much. How much of, how much did you submit and how much did you receive back? How many pages or word count or something like that?

Amani Roberts (01:02:43.886)

Great question. Okay. For this book here, I had turned it 131,000 words, approximately. That's a lot of words. They cut it, yes, yes. Yes, yes, you get it, you get it. They cut it down to probably about, yeah. They cut it down to probably about 82,000 words.

Brian Funk (01:02:53.364)

And you wrote, typed every one of them, right? So you care about them all. Yeah. You push that keyboard a million times to make that.

Brian Funk (01:03:08.106)

Okay, so that's what? That's almost like 30, 40%.

Amani Roberts (01:03:11.95)

That's right. They cut it about 30%, 35%. What happened is that I had included lyrics in the book and you can't do that. You need the rights to include lyrics. I didn't have them. They cut that down, but then I added back certain sections that were missing. It came back up to about 89, 90,000 words. It's like a 500-word book. The book is pretty... You can see how thick it is. The book is pretty thick here. On the camera, you see how thick this book is. It's not a little book. That was this one here. It was 90,000 words for 131. My first book...

Brian Funk (01:03:34.85)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (01:03:41.166)

I think I turned like 54,000 words. They cut it down to 27, almost half, 30, maybe 30,000. And then I added back to six, it was probably about 35,000 for the first book. So that's kind of what I turned in to what ended up being the final product. But it's beautiful. The editors were right. It works. I have no regrets.

Brian Funk (01:04:03.234)

Well, that's an outside perspective of somebody who didn't push the buttons on the keyboard over and over again, right? So they can be brutal. They can be real and objective. Whereas we get a little bit, I think it's like music too, you you hear a lot of groups writing, we wrote 50 songs for this record and we got 10 or whatever.

Amani Roberts (01:04:08.364)

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:28.492)

but it is a little tough when you're the one. It's even tracks in a song. got this track, this song has 80 tracks and I love them all. know, I programmed them all. then sometimes someone else listens, they're like, why don't you just take that out? This would be better without those 20 tracks. And you're like, what? I've had that feeling with my band doing vocals and getting these cool effects. And they're like, what would it sound like if you took all those effects off? I'm like.

Amani Roberts (01:04:36.716)

Yeah, yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:04:42.328)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:04:55.682)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:56.002)

That's not gonna be possible guys. That's three days of work and then they were right. You're like, So you have to, you definitely have to, guess, like you said, check your ego and also just see that nothing's really precious. You you cut it out and sometimes less is more. Okay.

Amani Roberts (01:04:59.48)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:05:02.786)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:05:17.314)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amen. Mm hmm. Preach. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:25.452)

then the other thing I wanted to ask you too is kind of a funny thing like that. I'm forgetting what I wanted to say now. It was a good one for you.

Amani Roberts (01:05:34.638)

So was it about, so you asked me the questions about cutting the words out. Was it about like getting people, was it about the writing retreat? Was it about getting people, okay.

Brian Funk (01:05:38.432)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:05:42.772)

It was about the writing retreat actually, yes. What was it about the writing retreat that was able to help you to get going? like, what are you doing in a writing retreat anyway? Like, what are the, is it activities? Is it just sit in a room?

Amani Roberts (01:05:57.612)

Yeah, yeah. like in my office, of course, of course, I get it. In my office, I would have these screens up. I'd have, you know, the phone around. I'd be around where there's lots of easy distractions. When I took myself away from my office, so there no distractions. you know, didn't have my dog to worry about. I was in a place where I knew no one. I just had to go somewhere to get meals. It's isolation. So you don't have to go from California to Minnesota. You can go on a staycation where it's very difficult for you to

Brian Funk (01:05:59.916)

Thank you.

Amani Roberts (01:06:27.118)

get distracted by everyday things or notifications. So that was the first thing. I would use the Pomodoro method where I would write for 20 minutes, then take a five minute break. And I would do that morning, then I'd go somewhere for lunch. I'd come back, I'd do that in the afternoon, take a break, go for a walk, finish out a little bit, then dinner. And it was just that routine with no distractions. And there's like, like I'm not in a big city where, oh, I can go see my friend Jeremy, I can go see my friend Eric or Josh or...

Teen or whatever, like no distractions and no temptations. So I was just focused on writing. was able to go walk, get a little sunlight. Although it was kind of chilly even in July for Minnesota. And it was just the elimination of almost all distractions. And that's what was really beneficial. Yes. Solo trip. Yes. Yes. Like I flew from LA to Minneapolis. I then took another flight from Minneapolis to Duluth.

Brian Funk (01:07:13.312)

Were you alone? it some kind of, okay, so this was like a self-imposed, okay, right.

Amani Roberts (01:07:26.112)

I drove from Duluth, Minnesota two hours to Grand Marais, Minnesota right on Lake Superior and went to an Airbnb. And so I was far from anything and anybody. It was like a little town. And so then I would go down to the town center to eat my meals and that was it.

Brian Funk (01:07:42.38)

Hmm. So by this time you'd already written one. So you understood how things get in the way. Yeah. No, it's very true. And, especially for us producing music on computers or typing on computers, the entire human collection of knowledge is at your fingertips. It's so tempting and you can trick yourself into being like, well, I'll just look up how to like use this device that I'm playing around.

Amani Roberts (01:07:48.268)

Yeah. Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:08:02.829)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:09.963)

The next thing you know, you're watching dogs, you know, running in circles, chasing their tails. And you don't know where you got here and what time is it. Yeah. Okay. mean, it's true. it's, I think there's been a big movement in musicians to get these like kind of groove box type things that are not connected to a screen or a computer. And people like that a lot because you're not, you're not like that.

Amani Roberts (01:08:12.2)

Exactly. You're down the rabbit hole. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:39.137)

you know, a little mouse movement and a click away from the floodgates of entertainment and distraction. Yeah, that's, that's, I know you're right because I've watched all of these little routines in my life creep in, checking my email, certain websites I like to look at, the news, the...

Amani Roberts (01:08:40.696)

Yes, yes, it's dangerous.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, dangerous.

Brian Funk (01:09:03.711)

YouTube, let's see who published a new video I can learn something from. And the education part is brutal. It's such a false thing in that you think you're working towards something, but you're just hiding from it. Of course it's important to learn stuff, but it's so much more important to learn it by doing it.

Amani Roberts (01:09:18.924)

Yeah, I agree.

Amani Roberts (01:09:27.586)

Yes, action, doing. Action is the key.

Brian Funk (01:09:29.365)

Yeah. Cause that it's so passive. You're just watching someone, yeah, I like what they did. And I could do that one day. Hmm. you know, I would love to do that actually sometime. just that's like kind of a, there's so many great albums that have been made that way too. you see stories of artists going away and just dropping off. It's also,

Amani Roberts (01:09:37.912)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:09:51.17)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:09:59.466)

Maybe in some way too it could be a little bit of a...

Like you don't need to do that, right? You can also discipline yourself. Like you said, you don't have to fly across the country, but maybe on occasion, it's not a bad idea. I forget what an author, I don't know if it was Toni Morrison or somebody who would go in a hotel room and just, is it Maya Angelou?

Amani Roberts (01:10:15.896)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:10:27.826)

Maya Angelou. She would go to a hotel room. She would take a bottle of sherry, a Bible, and sit there and write. And a hotel room, yes. Nothing to do but a bottle of sherry, a Bible, and just write. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:37.855)

In a hotel room, like, nothing to do, yeah. Not exciting.

Brian Funk (01:10:46.441)

Hmm. Yeah. That's pretty cool. You just sort of force yourself. And I'm sure you probably face some demons in there, right? Was it ever hard to just... Was it hard to get into that routine? Hard to stick to that routine?

Amani Roberts (01:10:56.792)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:11:05.28)

Yeah, well, by the time I knew I was struggling, so that's why I really made the effort to go on the writing retreat because prior to that I was struggling. It was hard to into the routine, too many distractions, starting, stopping.

Brian Funk (01:11:16.363)

Did you say a week? Is that what you said? It was a week long?

Amani Roberts (01:11:18.73)

Yeah, like five days, four nights. It was like five days, four nights of just writing. Before that, it was really, really difficult to get in the routine. I was struggling, so I had to do something. Yes, that was my answer to that issue, that challenge.

Brian Funk (01:11:32.556)

Hmm. See, I face this a lot when we as teachers go on summer vacation and it's like, I got all this time. I'm going to do everything. And you wind up just kind of wasting a lot because you feel like you have too much. and I think maybe five days is a little bit more nice, tighter timeframe, you know, cause you can't, you can't say like next week or tomorrow is.

Amani Roberts (01:11:38.978)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:11:46.232)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:11:55.18)

Yeah. Bye.

No, no, It was go time. Then I came back. I still had about 15 % left to do, but I was able to get that done because I was so encouraged by the progress I made that I was able to come back and finish and turn the first draft in. Then you get first edits and all things, but that was the first domino. Once you turn the first draft in, majority of writing is basically done. You might have to make edits, but that was really, really important to get me to the next step.

If I had not taken that trip, I don't know, I don't think the book would have been out last year. It might still have been a while.

Brian Funk (01:12:35.433)

Yeah, we gave yourself a really big victory and that can, yeah, those get you going. Like when you start to feel it and see it coming together. It's similar. It's the other side of the coin of when you stop and you start taking time off and it feels impossible to get back to it.

Amani Roberts (01:12:38.784)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:12:43.992)

Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:12:55.916)

Yeah, because you know in teacher world we look up and it's already August, time to go back to school. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:00.991)

Yeah, it is. And you're like, damn, I was going to make three albums this summer. All I did was like eat popcorn and watch TV. Hmm. That's cool stuff. I got to imagine it's a pretty cool experience to be one of your students, to be in your workshops and get some consultation from you because you have a real

Amani Roberts (01:13:05.108)

Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:13:26.466)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:30.611)

welcoming, friendly, encouraging disposition to you that really comes, it comes through an online, but especially in speaking with you. You make it feel like it's not impossible because sometimes it does. Sometimes it's like, does anyone do anything? know? So where can we tell people to go? Where do you like to send them so that they can start finding some of your work, getting into some of the coaching maybe or.

Amani Roberts (01:13:35.096)

Thank you.

Amani Roberts (01:13:38.574)

Thank you.

Amani Roberts (01:13:44.12)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (01:13:54.893)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:13:59.64)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:59.713)

Even the books.

Amani Roberts (01:14:02.136)

Yeah, for coaching, you go to my website, AmaniExperience.com backslash call. You can send me a note and we can get on a free call and talk about it. My website has all the information, AmaniExperience.com. You can also go backslash coaching. That's where you can see the coaching program. I share my videos about book and facts and stuff on Instagram and a little bit on TikTok. I'm really probably the most active on LinkedIn.

I like to direct people to the website and then you can pick where you want to go from there. You can set up a call. We can get on the phone and talk. I can learn more about you. You can learn more about me. There's a tab for the book there. You can also get the book Amazon, wherever, The Quiet Storm by me. Those are the places where I live and hang out. Join my email list, all the things.

Brian Funk (01:14:54.1)

Yeah. And, you know, I'm on site now and I can see you've got all those links easy to find in the top. You're practicing what you preach. didn't say, find me on Instagram, because Instagram could change. Instagram could disappear, get bought out or suddenly fall out of favor. And now all your followers are gone and you lost touch. So you did send them to your site, which is cool.

Amani Roberts (01:14:59.618)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you. I'm trying, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Amani Roberts (01:15:14.166)

Yes. Yes.

Brian Funk (01:15:18.112)

Yeah, it's nicely laid out, so it is pretty easy to find everything there. And I noticed you got the quiz too, so that's sort of a little bit of a hook. I didn't take it. I just, I didn't see it the first time I was here, so.

Amani Roberts (01:15:25.836)

Yes, did you take it? Yes, take the-

Yeah, I know. know. Take the quiz. Let me know what army group you are. It'll be like a personality personality. That's a fun thing. I use that during my book launch to grow my email list. So that was my lead magnet. If I'm being honest, I should have promoted it more because it's very popular. People love it when they take it. I still use it. And that's one example I show my artists like this is how I grew my email list. You could do this. You can do.

Brian Funk (01:15:34.858)

Yeah, what R &B group you are. Yeah, that's fun.

Brian Funk (01:15:41.812)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:15:57.422)

I love giving away acoustic songs, acoustic versions of songs or unreleased music that's very popular. So I try to practice what I preach as you said, absolutely. And always refining and trying to make it better.

Brian Funk (01:16:05.3)

Hmm. Yeah. That's evident.

Right. Yeah. You don't ever get there, right? You're always on the journey. We're always that, that making it concept is kind of wrong, I think, you know? So yeah, it's great stuff. I love the world you've created here and really nice to talk to you. And maybe we'll have to touch base again sometime.

Amani Roberts (01:16:12.654)

Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:16:19.63)

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:16:27.63)

Thank you.

Amani Roberts (01:16:32.842)

Absolutely. I'm a big fan of yours. I follow all your videos and things for a long time I know that kind of they make changes with like patreon and Dropbox where you weren't able to do what you were to do before but I've been following your content for a long time. So thank you to you as well Yeah

Brian Funk (01:16:47.309)

Thanks. Well cool. So go to AmaniExperience.com. Thank you everyone for listening.

Amani Roberts (01:16:54.702)

Thanks for having me.

After 6 years of the Jamuary challenge, I’ve learned that the secret to finishing more music isn't a new plugin or more music theory; it’s about moving from a romanticized "Artist" identity to a prolific "Maker" mindset.

In this episode, we discuss: 

The "Quantity Over Quality" Hack: Why having a routine allows you to fail safely.

The Skills of Finishing: Why completing "bad" music is the only way to prepare for your best work.

Learning by Doing: How to escape the "Tutorial Junkie" cycle and get your hands dirty.

Killing the "Artist" Label: Why viewing your work as a "body of work" is more freeing than chasing a single masterpiece. Stop overthinking, start creating, and let’s get those ideas out of your DAW and into the world. 

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Brian Funk

Episode Transcript:

(00:00.000)

I wonder if you feel this way too. The more music I make, the more I learn, the more theory I understand, the more gear I get, and the more I learn about that gear, the harder it gets to make music. Most things in life are easier the more you do them. Driving a car, riding a bike, cleaning the house, whatever. And those things become second nature. But making music is different. I find myself getting stuck, unable to make decisions. I worry if my music is any good, I wonder...

If I'm getting any better, think about how my music compares to other people's and probably most of all, I hesitate to even start. I resist taking those first steps, feeling paralyzed by infinite directions that I could go with my music. I can't decide on what kind of music to make and I'm left feeling, I don't think it's uninspired, but unable to take any of those directions. I worry about self-expression and what I'm doing.

If it accurately encapsulates who I am as an artist, I stop having fun. And I thought I loved making music. I spent January making a piece of music every day for the January challenge. And for the sixth year in a row, I managed to show up and make something every day of the month. And as usual, it wasn't easy. And for the majority of the days this year, I kind of waited till the last possible minute to start.

but I think I learned a couple of valuable lessons about making music and the mental challenges that come with it. In this episode of the Music Production Podcast, I want to have a conversation about five things I struggle with that get in the way of my music making and how we can change our thinking and approach so that we can make more music and have more fun doing it. These are mostly in the order that I encounter them in the music making process, but the last one is kind of a class of its own and deserves special attention.

There's the problem of getting started. The first thing to realize is that making music is different than most of the things we do each day. There's no guarantee of success. Like, I don't know if I'm going to make anything good, that I'll like it or anyone else will ever want to hear it. And I think this is why I often put it off until the very end of the day by doing things that I enjoy much less. I complete chores, vacuum, sweep, prepare meals, clean, errands, rearrange the studio.

(02:21.145)

And all of this stuff will get done, put in the time and it will be finished. And you can have that little bit of satisfaction at making something and completing something, but making music might not go well. First of all, you have to decide what you're even gonna make in the first place. And this is where I often get stuck. And also why I don't think the problem is a lack of inspiration because I wanna make a billion styles of music. I wanna make singer songwriter stuff, rock band music.

Hip-hop, EDM, IDM, experimental ambient, but any choice I make leaves behind all those other possibilities. And if it doesn't get off to a great start right away, I start questioning whether I should have maybe made something else. And that stresses me out. So I do the dishes because I don't have to decide which dishes to do. I just do them and they're done and I can pat myself on the back for it. I think the best way around this issue is quantity.

Having a regular routine of music making allows me to pick something today knowing that I can pick something else tomorrow. If I don't have to lament the path I chose because I can take a different path tomorrow, I feel better about it. So by staying regular and consistent, I allow myself to go down different musical paths and be okay with it not working out so well. If I'm showing up all the time, then I can afford like a fruitless session. It takes a lot of the pressure off.

Making it routine removes the question of if or when I will even make music. The time arrives and I start. Put it in the calendar. Keep it like any other appointment. This can help me to get started. And even though during January I did wait till the last minute, the fact that I knew I was doing something and I knew I'd be doing something tomorrow helped me get started and helped me actually see ideas through. After getting started, there's the worrying about making something good.

Of course we want to make something we consider good and it'd be amazing if everyone agreed but worrying about this will only cause frustration We can't control what other people will think It's like being angry about the weather. It's wasted energy and completely out of our control It also robs us of the joy of creating The actual act of making something is fun and exciting Watch kids. They have that. Beginners have it too. They don't expect the product to be anything amazing

(04:45.966)

They just enjoy the making of it. I think this is feeling we all fall in love with and we have to remember to embrace it while we're working. Getting too judgmental in the early stages robs us of this. The whole point of pursuing music is the fact that it's fun. If we're doing it for other reasons like success, money, or adulation, it's kind of a stupid choice. There are all kinds of secure jobs that you might not love but will pay you well.

And if you want likes and thumbs up, get a dog or a cat and post videos of the cute things it does. But don't strip the fun out of music making by trying to make it into success and focusing on the uncontrollable thoughts of people you don't even know. The funny thing about it is so much hit music that artists make, they don't even know it was happening when they were doing it anyway. Countless artists never expected that song to be the hit. So when you're making something, it's best not to worry about how good it is because you kind of don't even know.

Instead, focus on making the process as much fun as possible. And ironically, that fun will likely translate into the music, and that's the exact type of stuff people will pick up on. There are some benefits of making bad music. First, you gotta give your ideas a chance. There's really no way to know if something's any good until it's finished anyway. If I'm judging my music too much while I'm making it, I'll always find something I don't like or something I'm uncomfortable with, and that's because it's not finished yet. If I go down this way of thinking too much,

I'm not making music anymore. I'm just worrying if what I'm making is any good. I'm out of the moment. But there are a couple things, some nice benefits that we get when we allow ourselves the freedom to make bad music. First, if you abandon a track before it's done, you never get to the end. And finishing music itself is a skill. By following through on even bad music, you're getting the practice of finishing. And since finishing is the last stage of the process,

It's the part we get the least amount of practice with. So learning the skill of finishing will prepare us for when we have something we really love. We'll know how to bring it to completion. Second, we learn from our mistakes. Many athletes achieve greatness only after failure, and that's because they've learned what to work on and how to improve it. If we're never challenged, we never get to do any reflection on our process. Listening back to our music teaches us more than any book or tutorial ever could.

(07:07.641)

You'll be able to identify problems and mistakes, discover ways to fix them. It's much better to do that with bad music than to have music we love never reach its potential because we never learned how to finish from our mistakes. Third, we learn how to salvage ideas and fix them. Listening back to my Jamio jams, I'm kind of surprised that some of my favorite pieces of the month were the ones I almost abandoned halfway. As we continue to work on our music, we make decisions based on our own taste.

And as we go through the process, we'll probably make decisions that are pretty good along the way that we like. And we might never encounter those decisions if we didn't continue working on the project. We might figure out new ways to make a boring chord progression more exciting, or clever techniques to make up for bad recordings. But these are lessons we can only learn if we continue down the path the song is leading in order to encounter them. Let it be okay to make bad music.

Then there's trying to master everything before beginning. So over the years, I've spoken a lot about how new gear isn't going to be the secret to making great music. And again and again, I thought some new piece of equipment was going to finally enable me to make my hits and make all the music I imagined in my head. Even though there are some things that have helped me grow and improve, most of the time, it's a false hope. I've learned this

time and time again, and I'm much more cautious about buying new gear or plugins without any delusions that'll make me a better producer. But I've replaced that with learning. I've become like a tutorial junkie. I'll scour YouTube for new techniques, how-to videos, productivity advice. I watch tutorials and stuff I know well with the hope that maybe some small new piece of knowledge will take me to the next level.

You can learn anything these days and it's so tempting to try to find new information or learn skills. It's irresistible, but there's no learning like doing. The point is to actually make stuff, not to learn tools and techniques. That should be the by-product of creating. It's the act of doing that teaches us, not just studying about it. To give you a sense of how I've learned this over and over again.

(09:17.795)

Back in the early 2000s, I got my first decent recording set up, a pair of Alesis ADAT machines. And these were a huge step up for my cassette tape four track recorder. So I started learning a little bit about microphones, EQs, compressors, started focusing on all the learning and figured, learned about mic placement. I record drums and guitars over and over, just experimenting where the mics go, turning them, moving them further or closer, trying out these effects that I got.

but I wasn't really making music, I was just recording. And after a little while passed, I had no music to show for all the time I was spending making music. I kind of realized that even if I did everything completely wrong, it would still sound way better than my four track recorder would. So I decided not to worry about it. I just record the songs and see what happened. Doing this gave me a lot of learning, but in context.

I realized the right way to do something depends on what you're trying to accomplish. So I'd listen back to what I had and make decisions based on that. After songs were done, I could reflect on the process and see what went well and what I could do differently next time. If I had some guitars that were close mic'd really nicely, I realized sometimes it's nice to not mic them the same way and try something different so that they stand out in the mix. All of this happened because I had the context of doing it and I was having more fun and I was being more productive.

A months later I had a full album. It was so much more fun learning along the way than trying to learn everything first. Plus I actually had something to show for it. You can't learn everything first. Today it's even more true. Our modern DAWs and even the cheaper studio gear all sound amazing compared to what we had 20 years ago. We can create recklessly and make tons of mistakes and the gear is very forgiving. Creating and learning along the way gives us the context to understand why we make decisions with our gear.

It doesn't matter how great the synth bass you programmed for two weeks sounds on its own. It matters how it sounds within the mix, with the music. You can't learn what to do with a muddy mix until you create a muddy mix and realize what went wrong. And this is where the learning happens. You can't learn how to drive a car by reading a book about driving cars. You have to do it. You can't get in shape by watching tutorials about working out. You have to work out. Then you can start to learn and apply the things you've learned as you go.

(11:38.668)

One thing I've learned by speaking to so many amazing musicians on this podcast is that the best ones never stop learning, but they learn by doing. There's no end to the learning. It's an infinite rabbit hole. So there's no point to try to master anything before starting. Anyway, you'll be learning forever and never doing anything. So this last lesson is probably the biggest one for me lately. It's to stop trying to be an artist.

We've romanticized the idea of being an artist. We think of them as people with special gifts that act on moments of passion and inspiration to express themselves and reveal their souls to the world. But even the word inspiration has its roots in receiving the breath from a divine God. And art can be so magical and deep that it can make us believe that the artist must have been chosen by some immortal creator. But in reality, it's much more like a craft than a skill we continually develop.

But this way of thinking tends to affect how we create. If I find myself trying to write something meaningful, clever, or special, I almost always fail. I start to identify too much with what I'm creating and feel the need to encapsulate my entire being in some form of self-expression. But there's too many sides to a person and too many of those sides are contradictory. Trying to wrap up your entire persona and emotional depth in a single piece of music is impossible.

It causes too much self-analysis and it gets us thinking too much about how we'll be perceived through our art. I find myself struggling with music because I worry about how people might psychoanalyze me through it. But the truth is, you're not your art. The art may reflect a part of you or might not. It may be a distortion of you, might be an exaggeration. You can explore perspectives you don't agree with in your art. It can be nothing more than a collection of ideas placed together for the listener to apply their own meanings to.

Worrying about being an artist in this way has almost never served me. I think the true picture of a creator comes with a body of work more than a single piece. And this way of thinking is freeing. If I'm too worried about what I'm working on and how it'll be perceived, knowing that whatever I'm currently working on is just a single stroke on the larger canvas, that helps me move forward. I can be silly today and serious tomorrow.

(14:01.505)

I can explore passing thoughts and feelings without letting them define me. I can take on characters and personas that may or may not reflect some side of me. Focusing on contributing to my body of work is much more fun and enjoyable than trying to sum it all up in one great moment of divine inspiration. The picture of who you are as an artist becomes clear as your work accumulates, not in single strokes of the brush.

The more you put out there, the more dimensions of yourself you can show and the more accurate the picture is. You gotta be prolific, make more and don't worry about being an artist. Unfortunately, this is not gonna get easier though. I've come to understand these issues in my music making. I see it in my friends and my students all the time, but an intellectual understanding of it isn't enough. Those things have to be conquered.

every single time. It's a necessary part of the process. And at times it's a battle. But this is the stuff that makes making music so special. If it was easy, it would get boring. This never ending challenge is where the magic is. Every time we cross the finish line is a victory. Doesn't matter what place we come in. All we can really do is take with us the knowledge that we've done it before. And the next time around with the challenge again,

We know we've been here, we've done it, we've made it through and we can probably do it again. And that's where the thrill is and that's why there's glory in it. What types of things do you struggle with in your music making? Do you have any tips that I might've missed? What advice can you share from your experience? I'd love to know. I could use all the help I can get.

Drums Synths
Ableton Live Pack

Ableton Live Drum Rack made with the Drum Synths devices. Each pad contains a Drum Synth and effects built into complex Instrument Racks, complete with Macro Controls and Presets. Hit the Rand button to instantly create all new drum sounds.

*Requires Ableton Live 12.3 Suite or Above.

Free Version Includes:

• BF Drum Synths Drum Rack

• 10 one-shot drum samples

Music Production Club Edition Includes:

• BF Drum Synths Drum Rack

• 8 Drum Synth Instrument Racks

• 50 one-shot drum samples

• Alien Space Voice Instrument Rack

Drum Synths Drum Rack

The Drum Synths Drum Rack is made up of Ableton’s Drum Synth devices.

The Drum Rack includes Lo-Fi Vibe and Drum Buss Macro Controls to add character to the entire drum kit.

Drum Synth Instrument Racks

Each Drum Rack Pad contains an Instrument Rack with the Drum Synth, FX, and Customizable Macro Controls. Easily alter your drum sounds or use the included Macro Presets. Hit the Rand button at the top of the Instrument Rack to create new drum sounds!

The individual Instrument Rack Presets are included with the Music Production Club Edition.

One-Shot Drum Samples

I’ve created a collection of one-shot samples from the Drum Synth Instrument Racks. Use them in any DAW or any sampler of your choice! These samples are perfect for Ableton Move!

Free Edition contains 10 samples. The Music Production Club Edition contains 50 samples.

Alien Space Voice Instrument Rack

The Alien Space Voice Instrument is made from a process sample of my voice and an assortment of Live effects and modulation devices. There are 16 Macros to customize the sound, and 8 Macro Presets to instantly dial in new sounds.

Join the Music Production Club!

The Music Production Club is the best way to keep up with my latest work and to join a community of supportive music-makers.

Your membership gives you access to:

• My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

• The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

• Live Meetings Over Zoom - Meet with me and the MPC community online! Make music together, share tips and techniques, and give and receive feedback on your music.

• Music Production Club Exclusives - Ableton Live Packs, Templates, Samples, Presets, and more that are only available to members of the MPC.

• Educational Materials - My Video Course, Books, and Documents to help you level up your music.

• Our Online Community - Share your music with and get support from our thriving Discord community. and Monthly Live Meetings over Zoom.

• Bonus Materials - Free stuff from my store as well as gifts from some musical friends!

• Special Offers - MPC members get 50% off at my store and special discounts from music companies.

Matt and I spoke in depth about the creative process and how he makes music. He shared his 5 I’s of Ideation workflow, as well as how he helps students turn their ideas into finished tracks. I’ve been following Matt’s work for a long time and it was a lot of fun speaking with him. 

Enrollments for Matt's Aspect Music Academy's 24-week structured mentorship program begin February 9, 2026. The program starts March 16, 2026. More information here: https://aspectmusicacademy.com/

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Matt's Website - https://matttinklermusic.com

• Matt's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@matttinklermusic

• Matt's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/matttinklermusic/

• Chronitect - https://chronitect.com

• Aspect Music Academy - https://aspectmusicacademy.com/

• Make Awesome Sounds with THIS Underused Ableton Live Feature - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TiNtj1eGIs

• Watch THIS if You Can't Finish Music - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gPHMyOvyHM

• Matthew Dicks on the Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/blog/matthew-dicks

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:02.011)

Matt, great to see you, great to talk to you, great to finally meet you. Welcome.

Matt Tinkler (00:03.328)

Brian.

Likewise, thanks for having me on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Appreciate you reaching out and looking forward to chatting.

Brian Funk (00:12.652)

Yeah, we're in the Ableton certified trainer world together and I've been following your work a while now. I love your tutorials. They're fun, upbeat and always interesting takes on things and stuff. You use things in ways I never thought to do. So yeah, when your videos come out, I usually check them out and it's great to get a chance to talk to you now for real.

Matt Tinkler (00:37.91)

Yeah, no, thanks, I appreciate that. always, I love keeping things fun when it comes to tutorial, like fun, interesting. I always try to do things that like...

Even if I've seen a feature or something or a technique or something like that, that someone's shown and I'm like, that's a cool idea. always try to figure out how I can take it in a different direction or do something a little bit deeper or like showcase it on a few different levels. Like so that, you know, maybe someone who's never seen that particular feature or anything before, or maybe they're just a little bit less advanced or skilled. They still understand what's going on and then can kind of follow along.

to the more advanced parts of the tutorial and the technique and the tool. And trying to keep that fun along the way is the most important part as well, I think.

Brian Funk (01:32.236)

Yeah, you definitely seem excited about it when you're talking about it. I get the feeling your ideas might come from your music making. It seems like you're kind of working it into something you're doing a lot of the times and then you're sharing whatever it is that you're doing.

Matt Tinkler (01:34.742)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (01:47.774)

It's funny.

I would say probably it's actually more about 50 % both ways. I think it kind of comes a lot from, I will come up, it's either that I will find something, like do something when I'm making music, be like, that's a cool idea, I wanna save that and do a tutorial with it or think about that later on. Or it's about like going, I wanna go deep into this particular thing or how do I do this thing or.

like what's this sound design technique? Like how do I sound design this thing really nicely or whatever? And then figure that out, figure out a way to put it into a tutorial format. And then I'll use it in music. And I'll use like that kind of, that learning and that deep dive into it as inspiration for the creative process later on down the line.

just like another tool to kind of add to the arsenal. But everything that I do and showcase will eventually link to my own music or just my own writing process somehow, whether it started there or if it ends up there. Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:02.05)

Yeah, it's a cool...

back and forth thing that happens, I think, when you start teaching stuff, that it keeps you kind of looking for new stuff and it keeps your eyes open for when you're doing something worth teaching. But sometimes when you go to teach something, the creative thing starts to kick in too. So I've found it to be kind of a nice little hack for myself to keep myself making music where I might teach something or I might, even if I'm building like an instrument rack or something like that, that now I'm making sound.

Matt Tinkler (03:24.47)

Mm.

Brian Funk (03:33.724)

and I'm like, that's fun, I'm gonna start making a song or suddenly you're just making a song. It's a great, because being creative is hard, I think that's something we wanted to talk about too, was just like creative workflow and...

Matt Tinkler (03:39.563)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:49.678)

Sometimes you just don't always feel like, okay, I'm gonna make some song or some music right now. And that could be for a lot of reasons where you might be just not in the energy or even nervous about it. That happens to me a lot. Like, I don't know if I have any ideas. So this is another sort of back door into that process a lot of times.

Matt Tinkler (04:06.88)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (04:12.852)

Absolutely. I find it interesting. Like I do a lot of like one-on-one teaching as well. And it's always, it's always fascinating to me when someone comes in with a question where I'm like, maybe I don't.

quite know the answer to that or like I know kind of how I'd go about making that particular sound or whatever but maybe I don't know exactly how I'd get to it and you know we work through it in the one-on-one session but then like as you say I'll kind of just like sit down for an hour two hours after the lesson and be like and then just like really just figure it out and then eventually yeah it always just turns into making music it's funny super tangent but like well not super tangent

A lot of people will talk about separating the sound design part of the process from the music creation part of the process or stuff like that. I find that really difficult to do because if I ever sit down to do a sound design session, five minutes in I'm making music. I just, can't separate it, you know?

Brian Funk (05:12.961)

Yeah. Right. I think there's some wisdom in that because if you're in the creative flow and then now I have to design a snare drum sound that might pull me out and I might've had an idea that was working out and then by the time I finished my snare drum I might've lost that wave a little bit.

So I tend to follow it in that regard. If I'm on a creative idea, all right, don't worry about the sounds too much. Don't worry about designing things. But if I'm in the sound design mode or the just general upkeep where I'm organizing things or something that's a little more kind of clerical almost. If I get inspired to make music, I always go there.

because to me that is the harder thing to cultivate, that's the harder thing to catch. think...

I can tell that you're probably the same way like you if you had a synthesizer in front of you could probably design a bunch of cool sounds and you'll wind up with something but For me if I have the blank canvas, I don't know if the song or the music is gonna be any good So I'm pretty sure I can make the sounds and the instruments But the other stuff I'm much less confident on so I always prioritize that if I get that kind of jolt, then I'll jump so

Matt Tinkler (06:37.142)

Mmm.

Matt Tinkler (06:40.682)

Like, yeah, using the sounds as inspiration is a really good way to kind of get that kickstarted.

Brian Funk (06:42.582)

It's like a.

Brian Funk (06:49.267)

I like to follow that rule when I'm creating music and in the flow, but when I'm not, if I get the flow, like go with the flow, jump, know, take that chance.

Matt Tinkler (07:01.686)

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny. I think that like one of the, there's people who get stuck across like different parts coming up with ideas is one, you know, sound design, another thing, or like, I think another part that people often get stuck on is like structuring and arrangement. But I think there's like, you know, ways to...

overcome each of those different parts where you get stuck in like, you know, on the ideation side of things. It's like the inspiration is huge. If you can find something that inspires you, like whether it's a sound or if you're actively seeking some other kind of inspiration, like maybe you're doing some kind of conceptual track or something and it's a story that's inspiring you or whatever. Like yeah, if you get that inspiration bug,

you either have to try and catch it in the moment or try and store it for later so that you can draw it out again. I mean, there's techniques as well that I try to teach to come up with ideas and get over them, but yeah, inspiration is a huge one and just trying to find inspiration in different areas of the creative process, but also just of life in general and try to capture those moments.

whether you can do it instantly and try and get inspired to make some music or if you just kind of have to capture it and file it for later.

Brian Funk (08:34.029)

What are some of those techniques that you say to people when they're maybe struggling finding inspiration?

Matt Tinkler (08:43.912)

It's, inspiration to me is often like, it's about the ideation kind of phase of the process. So if you're struggling to come up with, struggling to get inspired, it's, guess that more so on a broader scale, you're struggling to like come up with ideas, right? So inspiration is not the only way to come up with ideas because you can kind of force,

I say force, it's just pushing through barriers, right? You can get to that state where you can come up with ideas.

or find things that inspire you by actively seeking them out. So there's, there's of course, inspiration, like making sounds, playing games, listening to music, reading books, like consuming art, being out in nature, like just having some kind of story thing or having something happen to you, like a life event, something can always inspire you from, from that regard. But if you have really nothing that inspires you, then there's a few other things that I like to kind of,

draw upon. like the next one is, I mean, it's kind of like a working title, right? But it's like the five I's of ideation. I like to do that. So there's like inspiration. Then the next one is improvisation. So if you're just sitting down at a keyboard or maybe a synthesizer or whatever, and you just, you just start playing, it's, it's just, it's play. You make a sound, you play some chord progressions or you play some notes or whatever. And then maybe, and then something that you play will

Brian Funk (09:54.157)

Okay, I like that, cool.

Matt Tinkler (10:17.208)

spark an idea, like that process of improvisation is a reason that a lot of people do that when it comes to writing music because sometimes inspiration is really fleeting but improvisation is kind of always something that you can control. You can always sit down at a keyboard or at a synthesizer or at whatever instrument it is.

and play some notes, hit some things, and it might take two seconds, two minutes, 20 minutes, an hour, but eventually through that process of improvisation, you will find something that is an idea that can then kickstart the creative process and kind of get you writing. And I think that's a really important thing for like...

people who do music writing as a career path. if you have to write something for film and TV or for a video game or for like some background music for something or if you're working corporate, anything, if you have to write something, improvisation is a really great way to overcome that inability to get inspired. So inspiration,

improvisation. The next one is imitation. So if you listen to something like, you know, a track that you really like or an artist you really like and then trying to imitate that style or imitate that artist, that's a really good way to not only try and get inspired, but also to learn as well. Like if you're like, I want to learn a new genre of music. I want to learn how this artist does this kind of stuff. It's like, great, we'll sit down and try and

you know, imitate what they're doing, maybe the same drum patterns, the similar kind of sounds, the similar rhythms, maybe similar chord progressions, tonal aspects, just similar musical functions or whatever it is, and really just diving in. The beauty of doing that as well as you really find out whether you actually like that or making that particular genre or of music or whatever it is that that artist is working in, because sometimes you don't, right? Sometimes you really enjoy listening to something

Matt Tinkler (12:31.524)

But making it is just boring or like it doesn't excite you or... But it does really benefit you too.

learn that process and to go through that process of like experiencing something or like trying out something new or interesting. And that even can kind of come down to tutorials as well, right? Like maybe you've seen a sound design tutorial and your process of imitation is I'm going to try and imitate that sound or I'm going to try and imitate that tutorial and make that sound. And that is going to then hopefully inspire a creative idea. Or maybe you get to that point, the sound you're like, I wonder what would happen if I tweaked this knob or if I did this to it.

you kind of get into that inspiration improvisation stage where you can then start to move further into ideation. yeah, whatever that's for inspiration, improvisation, imitation. And then the next one I find is innovation. So trying something that is really new.

that might be putting together two effects you've never put together before. That might be like trying a new synthesizer. That might be, well, kind of trying new synthesizer, kind of ties to the next one. But it's like, it's really about, I have these things that I know how they work. What happens if I put these two things together? Or like, what happens if I, you know, duplicate this effect a bunch of times? Or what happens if I like, you know, actively try something that I've never tried before?

And then that it kind of is like improvisation as well, but it's really about just like there's an active component to it in that you're thinking about what is this thing that I can push to the next level or two things that I can combine that I've never combined or thought about combining before. And then the last one is investigation. So that's like diving deep into something. So that might be you've got a new synthesizer.

Matt Tinkler (14:33.078)

And you're just going to learn it and you're just going to like, I'm going to make everything with this synthesizer or maybe there's a technique like a really classic one that I like with something like investigation as a, as a framework for creating and coming up with ideas. It's like limiting yourself to a single sample. Right? So like if I used to do that a lot when I was, I don't know, 10 years ago when I was writing music. Um,

one of my creative processes would be to, I'm just going to see what I can write with just one sound. You know, maybe it was like a sine wave and then I'd resample that and stretch it and put it in simplers and resample and add effects and like really just diving deep into one thing, one particular process, one particular sound, one particular tool, one particular whatever. And then I find kind of

between those five different things, you should be able to pick any of those lanes and overcome that inability to come up with an idea. So if you're not inspired, you can try improvising. If you really just can't get anything from improvisation, you can try moving on to imitation. You can try something else that someone else has done and experiment with that. And then if that really doesn't work, maybe you say, okay, well, maybe I'm just gonna try something new, something I've never tried before.

and then if that doesn't work you can always go well I'm going to just try and deep dive into something and whether or not that will end up in a good creative output or something that you're happy with I mean that takes... you've got to expand on that of course you can't just leave it at the ideation phase if you want to actually turn it into a song or whatever but those can all get the ball rolling

Brian Funk (16:18.527)

Those are great. And I like the five I framework just to, you know, sometimes you don't think of those things in the moment. You're just like, I don't have any ideas. But as you're rattling them off, I'm realizing these are a lot of things I like to do. I might try to learn something new, which would be in the investigation thing, or I might learn how to play a guitar solo and or like you said, recreate a patch, follow a tutorial, but then

Matt Tinkler (16:21.43)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (16:27.158)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (16:34.347)

Mm.

Brian Funk (16:47.317)

three quarters of the way through just be like, I'm just gonna go this way. And next thing you know, you're off on your own. It's really nice to have some, I'm gonna probably have to like make a little post-it or something with that just to, just so you have it. Like right now, especially I'm in the middle of January, which is the thing where we try to make something every day and share it. And that's always a big challenge because...

Matt Tinkler (16:59.478)

Hahaha

Matt Tinkler (17:05.77)

Yep, nice.

Brian Funk (17:15.083)

Most of these days, and especially this year so far, we're on like the eighth day and I feel like every day I've been like barely able to even show up. I feel like I haven't even really started yet. But having something just, okay, I'm gonna at least be able to go in a direction is really helpful when you're feeling that like, that pressure or that overwhelming feeling of like, I don't know if I'm ready right now or I don't have a lot of time.

Matt Tinkler (17:42.358)

It's funny, always, I find that the, it's often the people who are more.

Brian Funk (17:45.867)

.

Matt Tinkler (17:54.262)

used to or like more skilled or advanced or longer further along in their journey of making music that often are the ones that struggle to come up with ideas. Like the people who are new at making music, could they could throw ideas out instantly. And that's because they're so playful about it.

Brian Funk (18:04.949)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (18:12.711)

Everything is innovation, right? Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (18:14.538)

That's it, everything is new, everything is just inspiring. Like you see a new tutorial, you wanna go and make that sound, you see this new thing, you wanna go and do that, you download a new plugin, you wanna play around with it. There's so much excitement in those newer people. But then as you get more used to, I kind of know all the techniques, kind of, you know, like I've done this before, like it becomes harder to.

dig for that inspiration and I guess find that excitement and that playfulness. And I think that's why in a lot of my tutorials and just when I teach in general, I like to be so passionate about it because it's, you know, it should be fun. It should be exciting. And that energy I feel like can translate and then get someone inspired to go and make something.

whether they're completely new or they've been in the game for a very long time or anywhere in between. That energy I think is really helpful because at the end of the day it's music. It should be about playfulness and fun. There's always going to be parts of the process that suck and that are annoying but the majority of it should be fun and you should be doing it because you love it.

Brian Funk (19:35.66)

Yeah, that's a great point. I find myself looking at some of the tools I have or the instruments and kind of like, I've played that before. I've, kind of get how it works or I know it, but the deep dives going into it, every time is different. You're different. Your ideas are different. The buttons you press or the knobs you turn or the notes you play are usually different.

So I'm often surprised, this teaching does this for me a lot too, because people will ask a question about, do you do that? And they're like, oh yeah. And then you start playing with it, like, oh, and you know it's another really cool thing you can do. And sometimes you have to just go in the pool a little bit to know you want to swim around. But that feeling before you jump in the pool where you stick your foot in the water or something, you're like, I don't know, is it too cold?

Matt Tinkler (20:16.682)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (20:34.909)

I can't think of a time I ever regretted jumping in the water, literally or figuratively. It's that poking around phase. think it's one thing that is nice about the January high intensity experience when you put that pressure on yourself, or even if you just have a deadline or someone's expecting work from you. The nice part about that pressure is that you just have to do something.

And sometimes the only thing stopping you from really making anything is that you just haven't tried to do anything yet. You're just thinking about it too much.

Matt Tinkler (21:11.028)

Yeah, and I think that's where having these kind of like things to fall back on is really nice because you're like, what haven't I tried yet? I haven't tried this thing. Okay, cool. Well, I'll go and try that thing. And it's just like making a decision, committing to trying that thing. If it doesn't work, that's okay. You can move on and try the next thing. But.

Yeah, having those systems and frameworks and processes that you can use as fallbacks for when you get stuck or when you're just not feeling inspired or you're like, I can't, I don't feel like jumping in the water at the moment. It's like, that little kind of voice that says, no, you can jump in the water. You're like, really? yeah, cool. you kind of go.

Brian Funk (21:53.653)

Now you mentioned capturing these ideas or storing them for later. A lot of times, yeah, I'm like most psyched to make music when I can't. You know, I'm like on my way to work or I'm stuck somewhere away from anything I can use to make music. What kind of methods do you like to use to store that so that when you do have the time, you can access it and actually do something with it?

Matt Tinkler (21:58.602)

Mmm.

Matt Tinkler (22:04.459)

Mmm.

Matt Tinkler (22:18.762)

Yeah, totally. It depends on whatever the form of inspiration is, but if it's like a melody or something that comes into my head or like a rhythmic pattern, I don't funnily enough often act on it, but I will often just pull out my phone and just record like a little voice memo or something. And I've probably got...

I don't know how many little voice members of them. I've never gone back to them because I don't feel like I often struggle to come up with ideas because I will often sit down and improvise or whatever. So I've probably got ideas on there that are probably really good, but that'll never see the light of day. But the voice members are probably one of those things. And I know for a lot of, I've got a lot of friends who use a lot of voice members and stuff like that. And that's how they'll capture a lot of their ideas when they're on the road or just out and about if they can't actually get to a computer and

Brian Funk (22:43.53)

you

Matt Tinkler (23:09.015)

capture it properly or an instrument. Voice members are fantastic. But if it's something that's extra musical, so if it's a book or a story or a video game or something like that, just like writing down notes, you're just like, oh yeah, I want to explore that thing. Or maybe you've seen a YouTube video, like you're out.

somewhere and you're like watching a YouTube video or seeing something crop up on Instagram and you're that's a cool technique. just, just save it. You know, save it to a folder. Like all these platforms have ways that you can save and then refer back to videos later.

And then even if you don't end up referring back to it for ages, you've still got that kind of collection of ideas and inspiration there that you can always like, I'm gonna try this technique. I remember seeing that thing in a video. Let's go back and watch that video. I saved that in this collection and going and seeing that. I mean, I'm still not fantastic at actually.

capturing those ideas. I guess I don't like scroll social media a huge amount. I do watch a bunch of YouTube videos but I think the YouTube space is an interesting one.

there's definitely some people doing some innovative stuff, but there's also people just not doing very innovative stuff as well. And so I find myself rarely getting super inspired from YouTube videos or anything like that, but I definitely like kind of pulling in my surroundings and...

Matt Tinkler (24:51.86)

coming, like drawing on stories or things that have happened to me, experiences, and using those as like starting points. But just emotion as well, I think is a huge thing for particularly what I like to do when it comes to my writing. It's like very immersive and emotive and so just trying to draw on past experiences and stuff like that is I think where I get a lot of my own.

inspiration from. But yeah, capturing ideas, voice memos, journaling, saving things to collections so that you can kind go back to it and when you have the time or if you were really stuck you can always go back to something, you always have some kind of jumping board.

Brian Funk (25:39.241)

Yeah, yeah that's important. Voice memos is huge for me too. I'm always recording stuff.

I do go back to a lot of them. A lot of times I use it for figuring out like phrasing of vocal melodies, especially for songs that I'm working on with my band or things with vocals because getting those words out in a natural way, I try to figure out as best I can.

But I love getting just field recordings. That's probably the thing that pays off the most for me is just recording the atmosphere and the environments I'm in. so I, I loved layering that in the background on tracks. just, you might not even know it's there, but it, for me, sets up like a world for the song. So those pay off a lot. And I do keep lists.

of like song titles or techniques I want to try in a song or even like philosophies to keep in mind. It's actually what I call them too on my list, philosophies to keep in mind, techniques to try.

But I noticed the more I am doing that, the more ideas I have. The more I'm consciously, yeah, that's a good idea, let's write it down in the notebook or on the phone or whatever. It seems like they attract more ideas as well. I don't know if maybe it's that you're just tuning in or you're just noticing that you do have ideas and inspiration all the time, but most thoughts, they just sort of slip away in the moment they're thought and then they're gone.

Matt Tinkler (27:22.934)

I mean, it's interesting, like, because capturing the ideas also extends beyond when you're... mean, it also extends to when you're in the studio or actively working on music as well. Because that's part of the improvisation process or whatever. Like you have to capture something. If you don't, you forget it. So that's where, you know, using the capture MIDI technique or like always being recording or...

You say with like vocal melodies something that yeah, I'll do a lot is just like yeah loop a section of the give I'm trying to come up with vocals or a melody just loop a section and just you're just recording consistently and you end up with way too much audio recording But you just that process of yeah, that's cool. That's cool. That's cool That's cool and you kind of iterating on it as you're recording and improvising

And then eventually like, yeah, that was a good one. That was a cool idea. And then you've got that idea captured because I find inevitably if I don't record that and I try to do it again, it's gone. So kind of capturing it in the moment is so important as well and having the tools to be able to do that. But also just like...

Brian Funk (28:26.407)

Yeah, right.

Matt Tinkler (28:38.086)

acting on that instinct. You know, like, I'm just going to try this. I think that that pool analogy that you had before was really interesting because that's what a lot of people do. They hesitate. They'll think of an idea. They go, I want to do this thing. And then before they act on it, they think about all the reasons that it's not a good idea to do that thing. Whereas all you need to do is just try that thing and then you'll see whether or not it was a good idea. And then if it is a good idea, great. You can keep moving forward with it. But

You kind of don't know it until you try, really.

Brian Funk (29:12.137)

Yeah, you really don't know if any ideas are any good until you try. I've learned that playing in bands with people and I'm gonna, I want to do this. And in my head, might be like, ah, but I'm amazed at how often they're right. Like, yeah, that worked out pretty cool. Like you get on board and give it a shot.

Matt Tinkler (29:27.094)

Mm.

Brian Funk (29:34.824)

Yeah, this idea of deciding to do something. I've been thinking about this a little bit and I don't think that word should exist. Deciding. The ing version, the present tense, I'm deciding. Cause you're not deciding is this, right? It's, it's a millisecond. It's okay. Go. It's or don't go.

Matt Tinkler (29:45.963)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (29:58.472)

deciding is like really more like procrastinating or like you said letting all the negativity or the reasons why you shouldn't fill your mind and you're putting it off. So I'm really trying to do that a lot with my music and the stuff I'm doing where I just, just do it, just decide to do it or not. Don't sit in this kind of in-between world. And I don't.

give myself the time to worry about if it's any good or not. It's like, I'm not even gonna worry about it. I think half the time, your taste comes in somewhere along the way and you make decisions that kind of fit whatever preferences you have. I'm enjoying this freedom of trusting that.

Matt Tinkler (30:30.816)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (30:50.893)

It's not always easy for me to get there, but when I find myself there, things just happen. And it's more fun.

Matt Tinkler (30:55.978)

Yeah.

Totally. I really like that philosophy. That's because you're totally right deciding doesn't make any sense You're in that like in that space of indecision is When you're deciding you've either decided to do something or you've decided to not do something or you're about to decide or not decide to do something

Brian Funk (31:06.803)

Yeah.

Yeah. Right.

Matt Tinkler (31:19.402)

But yeah, like deciding, that's an interesting one. And I imagine doing something like Jamuary, I mean, I'm doing a lesser version of it at the moment, where weekly beats. So it's like one track a week for the whole year. But Jamuary is something that the idea of that is amazing, but scares me. But yeah, I imagine that you'd become really resilient to...

Brian Funk (31:40.155)

It is scary. Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (31:48.718)

the, I guess consequences of making quick decisions when doing something like Jamuary.

Brian Funk (31:55.924)

Yeah, the nice thing about a daily activity like that is if it's terrible today, tomorrow I'll be here. Even the weekly thing you're doing is pretty, that's a pretty ambitious task too. And I'm sure you probably get that same sensation of like, all right, I'm doing this this week, but next week is a new idea anyway, so.

It gives you the freedom to be a little risky and courageous with your choices. Whereas if you were just making one song every six months, you'd labor over it and you'd start worrying about so many things. Is this expressing my true artistic vision? You get caught up in this like artist idea. I think that screws us up a lot where I'm making this song that's going to really capture me and my

statement to the world. It's too much pressure.

Matt Tinkler (32:51.976)

It's so much pressure. It's really funny, like the whole idea of the, like capturing your unique artistic voice or whatever. There's, I mean, there's a lot of talk about, like that's one of the things that a lot of people talk about online. It's like how to find your sound, how to not sound like anyone else, how to like find your unique sound, et cetera.

But from my experience, the only way that that actually happens, the only way that you find your own expressive voice, your unique sound, whatever it is you want to call it, is just by writing more stuff, writing more music and getting through the process more because...

you're never gonna find what works for you unless you've just like gone through the process so many times and you're discovering new tiny little bits along the way. And then that.

unique sound that really personal expression of yourself musically is always going to change as well. Like it can change on a relatively frequent basis but it can also just change on a very long over time basis. Like the music that I'm making now feels really personal and it feels like one of the most truest expressions of

me as a creator, but if I fast forward five years, I know that that's probably not going to be the case anymore. The music's going to have changed. The ideas and the style is going to have evolved and it's going to still feel like me. And it's the moments when I haven't been writing much music where maybe it's like one track every six months or whatever.

Matt Tinkler (34:38.258)

It's those times in my life where I haven't felt artistically aligned because I haven't been churning out music. I haven't been figuring out what is a representation of me at that particular moment in my life. So yeah, like I don't think, I don't think that there's any way that writing one track every six months, seven months, one year.

and laboring over it to make sure that it's your own artistic identity or expression of yourself is ever actually gonna work. It just doesn't make sense, to me anyway.

Brian Funk (35:11.753)

I think you're right, because then it becomes sort of fabricated too. Because you're thinking about it too much, you're crafting it, you're designing it, you're not just being whatever you happen to be. I think those types of things like voice and all of that happens through a body of work, through a large collection of stuff over time.

And that's probably a more accurate representation of any person, right? Like you're not whatever slice of you that a person gets on any given day is only just a little sliver of the full picture. So you kind of need to keep showing up. One of the nice things about something like a weekly challenge or like a January is that a lot of people will start

putting stuff out there for the first time, the first few times, and do it a few times in a row in succession, and sort of see like, it didn't really, you know, break anything, it didn't shatter the world. Mostly, we put stuff out there, it's hardly even noticed anyway. When you have, when you sort of pollute the world with your art, so to speak, there's just so much out there.

Then there's so many different angles people can come to you or different slices of you out there that it's hard to even know what they're going to pick up on anyway. I just watched an interview with He was talking about his biggest song was sort of a, is now this, I forget what song, When It Rains I Feel Like Dying, I think it's called, something like that.

Matt Tinkler (36:52.98)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Matt Tinkler (37:04.831)

Okay.

Brian Funk (37:05.956)

It's an instrumental and it's very different from a lot of the stuff he's ever done. And he was just talking about how that particular track wasn't really meant to be this whole statement. It's his most stream thing now. You really just don't know what's going to happen. And if he didn't go with that, if he didn't put that out or didn't follow through on it, or even listen to some people that were kind of saying like, it doesn't sound finished. Where's the beat? You you're supposed to have

beats in your song, you make dance music. It's kind of freeing, I think, to just throw stuff out there a lot. And then you sort of have this trail you left behind. It's a documentation of where you've been. I think it's kind of rewarding on a personal level, even forget what other people think. I don't really rely or count on anyone listening to anything I ever do.

You know, it's freeing when you look at it that way, I find, compared to the, I'm making my masterpiece, my opus, my statement.

Matt Tinkler (38:06.048)

Totally.

Matt Tinkler (38:18.332)

Absolutely. I find it really personally interesting to A, go back through other artists' catalogues and like you find a new artist to you or maybe one of your favorite artists that have just released a new album or a new body of work or whatever and going back and listening through their whole discography or like listening back to some of their first stuff and comparing it to their newest stuff and be like, it's so interesting to see that.

Brian Funk (38:35.527)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (38:44.763)

progression and see that difference. Yeah. Yeah, 100%.

Brian Funk (38:45.564)

Yeah, those deep dives. Yeah. Yeah, those are fun. I love when I get on one of those. Sometimes you just find somebody, some group or something. And after a while, you start almost, I find, start, I don't have favorite songs anymore, favorite, maybe I have like, eras I like, but I just like them. I like what they're doing. And...

Yeah, I'm not like into like take like a Bob Dylan type of character that's left thousands of songs behind. mean, I don't love all of them, but I love Bob Dylan. And you can go almost anywhere with him and find something interesting. There's so many artists like that where it gets really exciting just to get to know them as a person through it and their views on things. And you see it change.

Sounds change, ideas change.

Matt Tinkler (39:45.61)

Yeah, absolutely. And it's also really interesting to go back and do that for yourself as well. Like go back through your own catalog and be like, yeah, that's what I was writing at that moment in time. And you kind of remember like, yeah, that's what I was feeling. Like you talked about it being a really personal thing too. I think it's really cool to go back and listen to your own catalog and where you were.

Brian Funk (39:50.173)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (40:05.066)

you know, one, two, five, 10 years ago, whatever you were writing, kind of put yourself back into that mindset and be like, what's so interesting? Like what I'm writing now versus what I was writing then. And regardless of the technical progression, you know, maybe you've gotten better at sound design, sound selection, mixing, composition, whatever it is, just hearing that.

representation, that manifestation of where you were emotionally, physically, mentally at that point in time versus now, or you know, that whole spectrum across that whole timeline. I find that super fascinating and interesting. And you don't...

you know, if you don't write music and if you don't finish music, even if you put it out or not, it doesn't really matter, you can have it on a collection of hard drive, which is just, guess, totally okay. I think you should share it, but it's just personally really satisfying to have that collection of finished stuff that you can hear your progression along however long of a timeline.

Brian Funk (41:07.144)

find it interesting how my relationship to it changes or my interpretation of it or sometimes I hear things in it and I'm like, whoa, what kind of like fortune teller was I? How did I, you know, see this or just there's naivete to it too where, oh man, listen to what I'm going on about here or the way I was playing or these...

periods you go through it's it's surprising how you can it's like going back to a hometown I guess or something like that where you see it again from a totally different angle and that itself is also very inspiring

I often want to make more music when I hear it. For a lot of reasons. It could be the like cringe factor, like, oh God, like I gotta, you know, put more, dilute this down with more material so it sinks further to the bottom or something. But mostly it's like, I want to keep writing the story of whatever it is I'm doing here.

Matt Tinkler (42:03.167)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (42:10.966)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (42:14.784)

Yeah, I mean, it's quite, it's a little bit tangential, but one of the things that I've been doing now for the last seven years is like every night before bed, just like journaling, even if it's just like three, five, six lines, whatever. And in the moment, like it's not about getting my ideas down or like, you know, getting my thoughts on paper or anything like that. It's purely just about the practice of doing it and being like what happened throughout the day.

Brian Funk (42:29.787)

Nice.

Matt Tinkler (42:43.792)

And, you know, in the moment you're writing and you're like, yeah, whatever. That's interesting. It's, but it's not until, you know, I go back now and I'm like, I have seven years worth of books that are documenting every single day of my life.

Brian Funk (42:59.495)

That's awesome.

Matt Tinkler (43:00.31)

Like it's just crazy, you know? And I'm never gonna go back and read them, but maybe I'll flick through one and open one up and be like, oh, you know, the 10th of January, which is funnily enough almost is the 9th January day, like, you know, it's the 10th of January, like 2020, like what was happening then? And you just kind of, you just flick back through and go, oh yeah, that's really interesting. And so it's, yeah. Yeah, I wonder what was happening. I could go tell you. Yeah, we had no idea. Oh man, yeah, yeah, that was the thing.

Brian Funk (43:19.621)

The 10th of January 2020. We had no idea. We were like so innocent.

That's a great practice. I do something similar. I'm going on about three years of daily things. And it's something I totally took from a writer, Matthew Dix, who wrote some really good books on writing and storytelling that really apply to music. I had him on the podcast. He was a very cool guy.

book called Storyworthy, which is about storytelling, and another book called Someday is Today. Someday is Today. And that's like being creatively productive. And I'll put show notes because, I mean, these are life-changing for me, these books. Seriously. And one of the things he does to get his story ideas, he calls it homework for life. And every single day, just writes down something memorable about that day.

And it's only meant to take like a minute. You don't want to draw it out because kind of like I get the sense that's what you're saying. Just a couple of lines. Because if it's a big project, you're going to eventually be like, I don't have 20 minutes to journal today and you'll miss a day. But when it's just like really quick, it's not too bad. And you're right. It's really interesting to look back on things. And the biggest takeaway I've had from it is that

Most of your life is not even a memory. It just slips away. It just poof, like smoke in the air, you know? And to be able to look back on things and be like, yeah, yeah, I do remember that day. I haven't thought of it since, but it comes back to you in these little nuggets of things. Yeah, I don't look at it a ton, but every once in I do it on a spreadsheet and I just kind of scroll through and.

Brian Funk (45:14.063)

I could even do like a search for like a name or a word. And, it's pretty cool. It's helped me a lot with being creative, I think, and just trying to notice too, on a daily basis, what was interesting about today? Was it like something somebody said, something I heard or somewhere I went? And I think that those types of practices just get you in this mindset.

trying to make stuff and make something of stuff, make something of your life.

Matt Tinkler (45:52.222)

Yeah, I mean that kind of comes back to doing like jammery or jamuary or weekly beats or anything like that, just having that consistent practice.

that you have at the end of the day or the week or the month, whatever it is, you have just an archival piece of material. It could be public and it could be, yeah, as the Moby example, it could be the next big thing or one of your most streamed songs or whatever, or it could be private and just purely for you as an archival purpose, but if it's a completed thing, completed being.

whatever that is that you want it to be. Then yeah, you've got something that can go and you can look back on, you can listen back to, you can read and get that.

Brian Funk (46:31.879)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (46:42.87)

I mean, it's also another form of inspiration to you. Like, yeah, I remember what I was doing back then. that's really interesting. Like, maybe, you know, even if it's a personal thing, like, yeah, I really enjoyed going to that cafe. I want to go back to that cafe again. Like, is that kind of revisiting, revisiting things that you've done previously or, and yeah, musical ideas, creative ideas, artistic ideas, places, mindsets, thoughts. And it's just interesting to see.

Brian Funk (46:45.713)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (47:11.538)

how you've changed and progressed over that time as well.

Brian Funk (47:17.735)

Yeah, it sounds like part of what we're getting at. It's almost a lifestyle, this creative process to try to find it in a lot of things. And it just starts to show up. Maybe music is the thing we and people that might be listening to us talk right now are into. But it's...

about trying to find it all the time and always keeping yourself like a radio antenna tuned to that and noticing it. And even noticing it in other people. I get a lot of inspiration out of the whole Jamuary type thing or even watching you do your work. It inspires me like you're doing it. Like, cool. It's not impossible. You made a song. Wow. Because sometimes it feels that way. Sometimes it's like,

I don't understand how to do this. I've been doing it for most of my life and now look at me. Today I can't do nothing. noticing other people's victories even. I really do try to take some pleasure in other people's accomplishments for that reason. You could almost call it like in a selfish way but it...

Matt Tinkler (48:19.766)

Absolutely.

Matt Tinkler (48:34.293)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (48:39.982)

It's fuel to the fire. like listening back to your old stuff is just seeing people do it.

Matt Tinkler (48:46.324)

Absolutely. It's, I think one of actually the most inspiring things for me is, so like recently I've been running like the pilot version of a six month mentorship program, which is about to kind of re-kick into it, like about to kick off in a few months time, like properly. Yeah, it's Aspect Music Academy. yeah, it's, yeah, yeah, cool.

Brian Funk (49:05.038)

Is this Aspect Music Academy?

Brian Funk (49:10.182)

Yeah, tell us about that a little bit. And then you can tell us the inspiring part about it. Let's get a little plug in because...

Matt Tinkler (49:14.238)

Yeah sure, so yeah I'll get a little plug, that's a good idea. Yeah so Aspect Music Academy is basically the school that I'm starting. I last year started doing a pilot of a six month mentorship program where I would help people one-on-one just kind of with their...

problems, I suppose, when it came to finishing music and writing music and overcoming technical barriers and being able to get stuff out there and get their creative ideas flowing and, you know, out and have something that they could show for it. And all of the students that came through, noticed them basically having very similar...

issues in terms of like the blockers or things that were coming up and the majority of it for them was that they couldn't finish music. Like it kind of comes back to what we're talking about before. A lot of them were kind of more early on in their journey and they don't...

struggle with coming up with musical ideas, they struggle with finishing music ideas or progressing the musical ideas. And so I kind of noticed this, I was like, oh, okay, that's really interesting. And that's led me to kind of do some research into the creative process and thinking about it as well. But it was also like, well, is there a way I can take what I'm teaching these people and...

structure it into something that can also be used to help other people because if basically seven out of my seven mentees are all struggling with this exact same thing there's probably a lot more people who are struggling with this exact same thing as well and I kind of

Matt Tinkler (51:00.948)

tangent to the inspiring part, is that seeing these people then actually finish music, like I have one of my mentees who's been working on music for five years, never finished a single thing at all. And like finally getting him to actually finish a song and finish something and like press export and be like, it's done. Like that was so...

inspiring and exciting and amazing to see that like actually you've been working on music for five years you've never finished anything now you've actually finished something and just like seeing his face light up and

seeing him be so proud and then having more ideas and knowing like the process that he can kind of go through to now take an idea from the start through to the finish line. That's, it's really incredible to see that. And so yeah, I decided that I wanted to start up.

Basically a more structured program where I could help more people in both a kind of group capacity and a one-on-one capacity as well. And so that's why I decided to start Aspect Music Academy. So it's basically a developed, further developed version of the one-on-one or the six month mentorship program where there's weekly sessions, it's a curriculum. We go through the process of basically the whole creative process.

in a very short period of time and then iterate on that process. So you kind of go deeper into each of the different sections over the course of the 24 different weeks. But the idea is that you start with, let's just get you finishing a song, like very quickly. So it's like, you know, doing like a January or a weekly beats. It's over a four week cycle. But the idea is like, let's get you.

Matt Tinkler (52:43.294)

to know how you can actually finish a song and take something from start to finish, even if it doesn't sound as polished or professional as your reference tracks who are artists who've been making music for 15, 20, 30 years, like music that's... Exactly. Yeah.

Brian Funk (52:56.26)

And how could you ever expect it to be? I mean, we all want it to, but it's a very, yeah, I know that feeling. I want it to, too, but how could you realistically expect it to be? And you gotta let that go. Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (53:09.202)

Exactly. Yeah, 100%. And the only way that you'll get to that point, if you want to try and get to that point, is not by spending 30 years coming up with eight bar loops, it's by spending 30 years finishing music. The more music that you finish, the better you'll get at the process. So that's where the whole thing starts off with...

getting something finished really quickly so you know what the whole process looks like so that then every time you do that you can get better and better and better better and better at each stage of the process so that can kind of, every track you finish is slightly better and it's teaching you something. And so...

That was the kind of whole idea with the program. I don't know when this episode is coming out, but the waitlist is open at the moment. This is the 9th of Jan as we're recording this. Applications are going to open the 2nd of February and the program is going to start 9th of March or something along 9th to 16th. Can't quite remember. But so that's really exciting.

the progress with the mentees so far, the course of the pilot program has been amazing and I'm really excited to share it with more people and get more people finishing music. So yeah, that's Aspect Music Academy. And I kind of decided on the name because it was about kind of finding your own musical aspect. Like everyone who's writing music.

part of themselves is music and it's about like tuning into that aspect of yourself that was kind of where the name came from.

Brian Funk (54:53.093)

That's cool. Yeah, that's a, I could see how that could be really inspiring. Yeah. Especially somebody that's had a hard time with that and made it through. It's like, yeah, you did it, you know? And we get good at starting songs because it's the first step.

Matt Tinkler (55:05.142)

Yeah

Brian Funk (55:12.869)

You know, you do that every time. But the finishing steps, the final steps, you don't always practice those if you gotta finish songs to practice those parts of the process. And I'm a big fan of making bad music for that reason. Try to just follow through on it. Let it be a bad song, it's fine, it's okay, it's just practice.

Matt Tinkler (55:13.398)

Mm.

Brian Funk (55:35.014)

You're just going through the process because one day you're going to have a good song that you really like. And at least now you know how to get through it. You'll know how to finish instead of now I got this really great idea and I don't know what to do. And then that becomes your seven year opus that never gets finished because you haven't gone through that. Just cranking them out, I think is really the only way it's just getting reps in.

Matt Tinkler (56:00.074)

Yeah, I see that so many times where people will early on in their journey or even later on in their journey come up with an idea that they're like, this is it, this is the best idea. And then they're really scared to touch it. Or they will take, yeah, it's precious. Or they'll take it through to a point where they're like, okay, this is the best I can take it at the moment. I can't really get it to where I want it. So I'm gonna leave it and park it. And then they kind of...

Brian Funk (56:15.353)

Yeah, it's precious.

Matt Tinkler (56:27.486)

three years later on down the road or one year or two, or however long it is, they come back to it because they're like, now I've got the skills to finish it. They go back to listen to it and they're like, no. And they try to like finish it and they try to tweak it and finesse it and everything. But they realize that the skills they have now are vastly different to the skills that they had then. And it's never going to be able to like sound like what they want it to sound like because they've started it from a different point in their life and their skill set and everything.

they kind of tear it down and just take like the core melodic idea or core rhythmic idea or whatever it is and then try to build it back up again and they reach that same point where they go okay cool well now I just need to spend another two years getting more skills so I can get that last bit and it just repeats it just repeats and yeah you end up in these with these tracks that you've sat on for years and years and years and years years that are never gonna see the light of day because they're too

Brian Funk (57:13.709)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (57:25.824)

precious to you almost and then every single time you keep getting better and you go back and you try to apply those new skills to that older track it doesn't work because that track was made in such a way that your new skills aren't going to be able to help it because it's already so far along in the process.

Brian Funk (57:47.75)

Yeah, and then you re-record it, you got demo-itis because you liked something about the way it was. Maybe you just had the spirit of that day. It's really hard to tap into that feeling you had.

Matt Tinkler (58:01.396)

Yeah, absolutely.

Brian Funk (58:02.295)

I think we, the longer we have an idea in progress, it gives us more time to imagine all the places we want to take it. And in my imagination, it's a perfect fantasy. It could do all these magical things and go in this direction, that direction, contradictory directions that are like the impossible staircase, know, MC Escher sketches and stuff. Like.

Matt Tinkler (58:24.32)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:27.909)

And you can have that in your head, but once you start putting it down, then you get the imperfect reality. And it's not quite what you thought. And it can't do those seven other things because that's impossible in reality. And you get stuck because of that. I think it's important to blast through it.

Matt Tinkler (58:50.492)

Absolutely.

Brian Funk (58:50.807)

I don't see the only real answer I can come up with is blasting through it while you're excited about it, taking it somewhere. And then when you have it, you can do like the editing finessing stuff a bit. But when it's still kind of being formed and if you let it stay as like mushy clay for too long. There's like a expiration date or something that happens.

Matt Tinkler (59:13.738)

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (59:19.597)

100%. Yeah, I did a video about this recently, actually. It was a horribly performing video, but I was very, I wanted to put it out. But it was, you one of the things in it was, yeah, like this idea of when you spend more time on something, like it's kind of this bell curve, right? Where it's the amount of time spent along the bottom versus the ability to actually finish it. And at the start, you know, you did...

you've not spent any time on it so you can't finish it, but then at some point you've spent just the right amount of time and if you push through at that moment, you'll really easily be able to finish it, but then the longer you spend on it, the harder and harder and harder it becomes to actually finish that track because you become either really attached to it or you become really bored of it or you just kind of keep trying new ideas and everything and it's just, yeah, it's mostly you either become too attached to it or you become too bored with it.

and then you just kind of move on to something else and you never get that thing finished because you've just spent too long working on it.

Brian Funk (01:00:22.276)

Which video is this? I'm looking at them now. Is it the second to last one you did? Watch this if you can't finish music. Okay, because yeah, I see like you got like, I see the number dipped on that one. And I, this is like, you know, kind of.

Matt Tinkler (01:00:25.334)

I think it's the second to last one, the... Yeah, something like that. Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:00:37.382)

Yeah, yeah did, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:00:43.012)

You're trying to learn YouTube, I'm sure, as I've been trying to learn and understand what works. The more I've researched it, I used to think it was the algorithm that was evil, but really mostly what the algorithm is just what people want to see and what they click on. Sometimes I feel like I have this gem of an idea and I put it out and it's just like, what the hell? Why didn't that work?

And it makes me think a bit about music too, with a lot of like artists, you probably heard artists talking about their hit song and they'll be like, I didn't think that was the hit. We thought if anything, this was the song or, so like people don't even know when they have it, that they have it. You know what I'm saying? So that judgment thing is really, you can't trust it because

Matt Tinkler (01:01:33.428)

Yeah, absolutely.

Brian Funk (01:01:41.399)

You really just don't know until you get through and until you put stuff out there. And I can see I watched this video. It's got the complete red bar. So I'm wondering your views on that. I kind of remember it. It's yeah, it's a good one.

Matt Tinkler (01:01:49.29)

Yeah, right. yeah. That's... Love it. Thank you.

Brian Funk (01:02:01.56)

But who knows, I couldn't tell you why. Maybe it didn't have the like instant, maybe you're being a little too realistic. You know, it wasn't like guaranteed number one hit in five minutes.

Matt Tinkler (01:02:05.012)

I think it's...

Matt Tinkler (01:02:14.734)

I think, yeah, I think actually one of the reasons it probably doesn't do well is like, you know, I've built up the channel over the last three years, just being like Ableton tips and stuff. And so when something comes out that's not an Ableton tip specifically.

Brian Funk (01:02:26.264)

Yeah, okay. Specifically a tip, yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:02:31.902)

technique or something like that then it doesn't do as well because that's not the audience that I've built up and it's like not what people expect to see from me but it makes me think back to like when I first started doing the YouTube videos where I was getting worse views than that because my channel was so small and no one knew what to expect from me so it kind of makes me think if I put out something that's

tangentially related to what I do, know, like the three reasons you can't finish music, why you can't finish music. It's not that it's a bad video, it's not that it's got bad content in it, it's just that the audience that I have isn't primed to receive content from me like that. And so it's kind of like almost building up the channel from scratch again, because you've just got a different type of video. And I guess that's where people start up second channels and stuff like that too. I don't know, I'm not.

I've kind of thought about this a little bit and doing the content creator thing, you know, making YouTube more optimized and doing that. But I never really set out to be a content creator. It was always just about sharing value and giving people ideas. And so like, if there's lots of, even if there's like 10, five, one person who sees a video and they get inspired by it and it's like, it's really real to them. Like that's the kind of impact I want to have in the world.

it's got hundreds of thousands of views or whatever, it's about that really direct impact.

Brian Funk (01:04:05.252)

Yeah, I've been...

thinking about this and thought through these things a lot too, because my channel has, there might be Ableton Live Packs, it might be a tutorial, the podcast goes on at two. So then you throw in an hour and a half conversation and some of it's more philosophical. Sometimes it's just music I'm making. It is very, it's not well optimized for, you can expect this from me every time.

Matt Tinkler (01:04:24.043)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:37.318)

it's not. And I even thought about that with my music too because I tend to want to do like everything, you know, I don't want to stick to anything. So do I have other names? And I ultimately came to the decision just to use my name as artist as just the...

Matt Tinkler (01:04:38.848)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (01:04:47.68)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:04:56.523)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:59.044)

It started to get so weird to me that we even have to have artist names and alter egos. On one level that's kind of fun, but I just wanted to not even think about that anymore. And it might be a marketing misstep as far as some of that goes, but maybe there's a long game to it where after a while...

Matt Tinkler (01:05:22.847)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:24.682)

some of the people that only care about the packs I make or only care about the podcast might. And if not, I think the other thing for me too is I just don't have enough time to worry about that. I'd rather just make stuff. And I do have a day job as a teacher, as a high school English teacher. So it affords me a little freedom to not have to.

Matt Tinkler (01:05:40.137)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:50.34)

really worry about focusing on it for like financial success. There's, you know, that's something I want to be able to do. And I'm very thankful that I don't have to teach summer school because I can do music. But, yeah, like there, I guess it's just like a.

Matt Tinkler (01:05:54.89)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:06:02.838)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:06:09.048)

point where I kind of came to that conclusion for myself and maybe I'll probably reevaluate and probably wake up in the middle of the night sometime next week and be like what am I doing but I should have four channels for I should not do this anymore but it's nice to be able to again like if you're thinking about like this artist thing this body of work it's nice to just make it and you know

Matt Tinkler (01:06:21.44)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:06:36.746)

Yeah, and have that kind of archival, yeah, like I've got all these songs.

Brian Funk (01:06:41.098)

Anytime I've gotten too concerned over the statistics or the pack sales or the downloads, it's taken a lot of the fun out of it. And I found myself doing things that I don't enjoy as much. Because like, that worked. That was effective. But I did that video for that company about their new gear. Like, yeah, that did hit pretty good, but...

Matt Tinkler (01:06:52.982)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:07:03.864)

Whatever I've decided to do for those reasons, those are the things I get stressed out about. They made my play work. Play music became work music. I'm kind of okay right now, think. Ask me next week.

Matt Tinkler (01:07:22.878)

It's funny every time you try and like, I mean, I go through this, yeah, so much. I'm fortunate now, I suppose, where I'm able to have my music in general be the primary source of my, or the only source of my income, whether it's, you know, like doing content or if it's teaching or if it's making music or whatever it is. But...

Brian Funk (01:07:49.058)

That's amazing. I mean, that's a really awesome accomplishment. got to, and I'll take my own personal pleasure from you for this by showing that it's possible. Because it's one of those things, I think, probably any adult hears a kid say like, I'm going to do like, want to make music. like, even musicians like, no, you know, don't do that. But no, that's a really great thing.

Matt Tinkler (01:07:57.558)

Thanks.

Matt Tinkler (01:08:09.035)

Mmm.

Matt Tinkler (01:08:13.578)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:17.345)

to be able to do and have fun doing it. one of first things I said to you is, it seems like you're having a lot of fun.

Matt Tinkler (01:08:24.244)

Yeah. And I think that's, that's the biggest thing is like, think that the things you have the most fun doing tend to be the things that translate into financial success. at least from what I've, what I've seen, like, yeah, there's going to be the, like you said, the videos that pop off because you did a video for a company or you managed to get in on a new, a new release or something like that, or,

someone sponsored you for something or whatever. So you get like little bits of financial stuff, but if you can tie that back into something that actually makes it fun for you or something that is fun for you, then it's something that I think translates to your audience, whether that is you doing a video on that thing or if it's just you making music or if it's you writing a post or putting together a product or something like that.

you know, if I don't know about you, but if I see a product like a plugin or a rack or sample pack or something, I can tell whether or not the person who's made it or the company that's made it actually cared about what was put into it. And you can kind of tell like, you know, if they, they continually updated or anything like that, then, you can, you can tell this heart and soul and love that's gone into it. And it might not be

an immediately obvious commercial or financial success, but I think that over time, it's the showing up thing and it's just the putting out there things that you love and in return, eventually the world and the universe will kind of catch up and be like, yeah, okay, you deserve this now, finally. But yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:06.019)

Yeah, there's something about enthusiasm. I've always felt that just playing live music, you have to be enthusiastic, I think. mean, that was always one of the most important things. Like, you can't look like you're not having a good time.

Matt Tinkler (01:10:12.075)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:10:20.085)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:28.149)

And I've seen lots of musicians play that I didn't even like their music, but they were fun to watch. Like, look at how much fun they're having up there, you know? And it does come off, yeah. You kind of can see it when people are doing something they're really excited about or when it's, you know, just something that might work.

Matt Tinkler (01:10:33.522)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:10:51.734)

Yeah, absolutely. Even if the crowd doesn't enjoy it, right? Even if the crowd isn't having fun, like in the moment, you know, I've played shows to 10 people or whatever, and those 10 people aren't enjoying it at all. But you're just up there and you're just having a blast. Or maybe those people don't look like they're enjoying it, but then they come up to you afterwards and be like, oh man, that was really sick. You were having so much fun up there. I was like, yeah, I was having a lot of fun up there. So even if in the moment it doesn't seem like the crowd's enjoying it.

Brian Funk (01:10:52.599)

That's tough.

Brian Funk (01:10:56.291)

.

Brian Funk (01:11:05.357)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:16.641)

Yeah, you win them over sometimes that way.

Matt Tinkler (01:11:19.646)

Yeah, you do. Yeah, even if the music is really, like if the music really good, but it's not really exciting for you to watch because you're not having fun, then that translates. But then if the music is not what someone likes to listen to, but as you say, just having an absolute blast up there and really enjoying it and having a lot of fun. That can make people really enjoy it because they're just like, I just love watching this person be really passionate and excited about what they're doing.

Brian Funk (01:11:21.463)

Yeah.

Okay.

Brian Funk (01:11:47.266)

Yeah. Yeah, when I first started bringing out my Ableton Live performances, I was playing to the scenes I knew, which were like rock band, punk rock, know, that kind of underground rock, you know, local band thing.

And this is probably like 2010, 2011, where laptops weren't ubiquitous in every type of music. So I've come out with my laptop and people are like, what? Like, you know, the rock and roll club and like, we're doing dubstep, bro. Like that was what people would always say. We do a dubstep, bro. And then Long Island accent. And.

Matt Tinkler (01:12:23.574)

Hahaha

Matt Tinkler (01:12:29.877)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:33.283)

I had to sell it. I had to really perform it and enjoy it while I was doing it. There was always a point, it's funny, there was a point, like I said, was three songs in where I'd bring in this song, I'd do a vocoder thing.

Matt Tinkler (01:12:35.702)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:12:52.835)

That was when I could see people like, okay. You know, they're like, all right, all right. But I had to always get over this beginning part where everyone was like, what the hell is this? what, we're here to see bands, not DJs. And, you know, it wasn't DJing, but it looked, I was, it looked like DJing, you know, cause I had my controllers and my knobs and my laptop. So.

Matt Tinkler (01:13:14.368)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:20.139)

That's powerful, your own passion, just like really being unashamedly enthusiastic about what you're doing. You do have to kind of sometimes get over those hurdles or those doubters and all that.

Matt Tinkler (01:13:40.01)

Yeah, and it's interesting like...

Brian Funk (01:13:42.263)

But it's contagious. It's a contagious energy, if you continually put it out there, to your point.

Matt Tinkler (01:13:49.396)

Yeah, exactly. It's super contagious. And I think that that's all the people that I see who are successful in the arts or creativity and in any way, shape or form, content creation, anything where they have to have like a public facing thing. It's, they're enthusiastic. They're passionate.

And I think that it's something that maybe doesn't come naturally to a lot of musicians or artists or creative to be able to show that passion externally. But I think if you can, it's going to be beneficial to potential commercial success.

if that's what you want. Or just in success of your art in general, like the more that you can showcase your enthusiasm for what you do and your passion behind it. Yeah, it's contagious. You're 100 % right.

Brian Funk (01:15:02.114)

So let's see. What else do we got to talk about here? Because I know we had a few things on our minds.

Matt Tinkler (01:15:04.544)

Mmm.

Matt Tinkler (01:15:12.05)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:15:15.722)

I mean, I'm curious.

Brian Funk (01:15:16.076)

How are you with just the whole, yeah, sure, go ahead. I was going to ask you probably a repeat question, I think.

Matt Tinkler (01:15:23.949)

I was curious, with the Jammuari stuff you're doing, how far are you taking those ideas? When you're doing them, are they fully structured songs? Are they finished? Or are they just kind of like... What stage do they get to when you...

Brian Funk (01:15:42.123)

it always varies and it's almost always a time thing. I try to complete it for whatever it is though. Whereas like, even if it's just sort of like a couple scenes of loops.

Matt Tinkler (01:15:45.515)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:16:00.717)

that I've jammed out. I'm going to arrange it. It might be a little crude, I'll make a little automation here or there. But I always try to at least get there. want to export it. Because I mean, like listening to it in my car rides and see if there's anything there. The jamuary thing is definitely very sketch patty. And I can listen back to these ideas.

Sometimes you just get lucky, you know, there's definitely a numbers game and once in a while like boom the song just shows up and you catch it and you feel pretty good about it. I like to try to finish stuff in February so the next thing I do with my community the music production club we'll talk about is finish February. Try to finish anything. It could be an EP, an album or just one track and try to put it out there, put out something.

That doesn't always land finished in February, but it usually gets the ball rolling for something that I can have at some point throughout the year or so, or I can have some kind of release and something to work with. Yeah, it really depends. Some things are a little jammy where, like last night, I just played guitar through this really cool pedal, not pedal, plugin called...

Butterfly Effect by Sound Better. You know that one? So I've had it for a while and talk about like saving ideas. keep in the Ableton Live browser, I keep a collection called Try Me. And that's where I'll just put things that, this is cool, but I haven't really played with it too much yet. So on a January, for instance, when like last night when it's 930 at night and I'm

Matt Tinkler (01:17:30.74)

Yes. Yeah. I do. Yeah, I've seen it.

Brian Funk (01:17:57.153)

I really need to get to bed. I found myself just loading that up, playing the guitar, you know, running that through it and getting lost in it for quite a while. Cause it's just a really fun plugin and takes you to outer space and ambient worlds. but even that, like I tried to make a bit of a composition out of it, you know? So I am trying to have some sort of

Matt Tinkler (01:18:07.606)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:18:29.14)

I guess, you know, finished version of it, even if it, even if all I have is like a loop, a couple of different tracks, I'll at perform it and make a bit of an arrangement out of it.

Matt Tinkler (01:18:42.964)

Yeah, cool. I think that's important.

Brian Funk (01:18:44.448)

That's something I want to work on. That's something I want to get better at. And that's, think, a good thing to have in this type of activity is a little bit of a goal. Something you're trying to polish up on.

Matt Tinkler (01:18:57.364)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. think it's, yeah, I mean, it kind of comes back to stuff we've talked about before, but that the importance of taking an idea through to some semblance of completion or finishing. And yeah, the more you do it, the better you get at it. And people like you and I have been doing this for a long time. So we probably have little techniques and tricks that we can kind of fall back on to take an idea from just an idea to an arranged thing, to a structured thing, and then maybe go through to mix it down or whatever.

But yeah, really like just going through that process of doing it over and over and over again. You just get better at it. And I think that's the biggest thing really.

Brian Funk (01:19:41.088)

Yeah, I'm hearing people in our Discord that have been doing it a couple years now and some of their stuff is like so much better this year. It's just come a long way. I can hear like, man, these like productions are really far ahead from where they might've been last year. Like one after another too. It's really nice to have that. You've got your community too where...

Matt Tinkler (01:19:53.398)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (01:20:01.334)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:20:10.145)

just have people doing it, because I go on that Discord sometimes not sure if I'm going to be able to make anything for the day, and I start hearing some things like, I have to, like, everyone's doing it, you know? Like, I don't want to be, I don't want to miss it, I don't want to look back and be like, I missed the day, you know? It's another form of motivation.

Matt Tinkler (01:20:17.206)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (01:20:23.381)

Yep.

Matt Tinkler (01:20:32.052)

I think the community thing is...

Yeah, the community is really a fantastic way to get motivated. I mean, I run little monthly challenges on my Discord, on my Discord as well. yeah, like that's, get, I think we had eight submissions or something last month. I've been doing it for a year now. And yeah, like that's really the community aspect of that, seeing other people finish it inspires you to make something. if like, for me, know, seeing someone submit to the challenge I'm running, it's like, I should probably make it. I should probably make something as well.

Brian Funk (01:21:03.765)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:21:04.92)

And yeah, like Weekly Beats as well, community for that. That's massive this year. I think there's like 440 something submissions, 450 submissions for the first week, which is huge for that. I did that for the first time back in 2016. And I think there was 200 or something for the first week. And that by the end of it was down to 50 people.

Brian Funk (01:21:17.493)

Wow.

Matt Tinkler (01:21:29.262)

and but yeah 450 people the first week of weekly beats is pretty crazy and yeah having that community of people it gives you that external motivation to actually go okay I should get something finished and you know that that can be in the form of a community that could be in the form of a mentor that could be in the form of um uh just like a friend that you have like an I have I have a mate that I catch up with every week we're a count of beta buddies like um

Brian Funk (01:21:29.535)

Wow.

Brian Funk (01:21:53.462)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:21:58.364)

So yeah, exactly. Yeah, kind of billiard buddies, kind of beta buddies. so yeah, just having someone that you can, or yeah, an external factor to ensure that you're pushing through on making music, if that's what you...

Brian Funk (01:21:58.818)

Account of beta buddies. Like accountability. That's good.

Matt Tinkler (01:22:22.218)

want to do is a really fantastic way to actually overcome that thing and be like, okay, I need to get something done. It needs to go out. I need to have something that's in a shareable state, whether it's finished or not.

Brian Funk (01:22:35.424)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:22:39.743)

Yeah, it is. I'm looking at our SoundCloud playlist. So I set up a music production club, January SoundCloud. So whenever anyone puts something on SoundCloud, which isn't everybody, I'll just add them to the playlist. And I've gotten through the first like seven and a half days. It's January 8th right now. And there's 160 tracks on here. That's it's wild.

Matt Tinkler (01:23:04.574)

Wow, that's crazy.

Brian Funk (01:23:08.905)

And last year, I found out how many tracks you could have in a SoundCloud playlist because of this, and it's 500. So we got to 500, it wouldn't let me add any more tracks, so I had to start at part two. And it looks like at our rate now, think, yeah, we should be getting, we're probably gonna need another, yeah. So it's pretty cool.

Matt Tinkler (01:23:16.726)

I'll see you there.

Matt Tinkler (01:23:26.944)

You'll hit that in no time.

Brian Funk (01:23:34.882)

just to see it, you know, lot of familiar names and some new names and it's six hours of music it says. It's six hours of new music and it's, there's a lot of good music. There's stuff in here like, I don't know. You're like, how did you do that in a day? Or like day after day, you're making something really awesome.

Matt Tinkler (01:23:45.054)

It's insane.

Matt Tinkler (01:23:55.499)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:24:02.219)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:24:02.261)

It's inspiring. And it does give you that feeling of like wanting to keep up with it and see if you can hang. Right? Can I do this too? You know, very motivating, but yeah, having even people you play with, like I play in a band, three piece rock band and we get together just about every week to play and

Matt Tinkler (01:24:08.338)

and

Totally.

Matt Tinkler (01:24:15.104)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:24:28.789)

We're playing, you know, we're all busy, we're all working and we're gonna get together for like three hours. So let's get down to business, let's do it. that has produced tons of great music and so much fun with my friends.

Matt Tinkler (01:24:30.006)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (01:24:47.338)

Yeah, I think it's a really good showcase that in a world where some people, like artists of all kinds, quite a lot of the time feel like, what's the point of putting my art out there?

Brian Funk (01:24:49.931)

Great by-product.

Matt Tinkler (01:25:15.668)

just hearing people like you say, you know, it's inspiring to me. Like that just shows you why you should put art out there. I think I mentioned something about that before. Like I'm a firm believer that I think you should put art out into the world, whether it's for commercial purposes or otherwise, but finding a way to show, to get your music or your visual art or whatever it is, just public somehow.

Brian Funk (01:25:31.541)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:25:40.34)

because you never know who it's gonna impact. And it could just be impacting another creative to inspire them to do something right the way through to just impacting someone who's just like, really love what you put out there. And it's just, it's awesome. Like...

Yeah, I think it's really important to put out your creative endeavours somehow. It doesn't need to be for commercial purposes, it doesn't need to be packaged in a commercial branded way, but if you have, it doesn't even need to be like widely public, it can just be to a group of friends, you know, like onto a Discord community or something like that. Cause it's, yeah, it's inspiring. And I think the more art there is in the world, the better the world is for it, really.

Brian Funk (01:26:29.642)

Yeah, I totally agree. yeah, I remember when you said that. I made a little note here to come back to that. Because you said you could leave it on your hard drive, but I think you should share it. I agree.

Matt Tinkler (01:26:38.645)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:26:44.572)

Yeah, what's gonna happen with it, who knows, right? And in most cases, probably not much. even if you put that little ripple in the water, like you said, and somebody else, even someone that likes to draw pictures decides, yeah, I'm gonna put a picture I made on Instagram. That's powerful, because then that's another ripple.

It's just good because we're in a world now where it's very easy to just consume, consume, consume. Social media, it's social media, but most people I think are just consuming, just scrolling. They're not actively. Most of the time I'm on social media, I'm not posting. I'm just kind of looking at stuff mindlessly. So to encourage people to participate.

Matt Tinkler (01:27:36.618)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:27:44.671)

just by an example, by being the example is really cool. Yeah, I told you I'm like a high school teacher and the students are on social media all the time, but very few of them are really participating in it. Maybe in their small friend groups, in their Snapchats or whatever, but I'm surprised.

Matt Tinkler (01:28:00.214)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:28:07.902)

that there's not more interaction, more creation. You've got the tool to put yourself out there. It's such an amazing power. When I grew up and I was doing my drawings in school and cartoon characters that we used to make, me friends and I make comics, we could only show them to whoever we could hand it to. So now you can just distribute. It's so amazing and it is kind of a shame how few of us take part in that.

Matt Tinkler (01:28:20.075)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (01:28:36.555)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:28:36.89)

Even though there are tens of thousands of songs uploaded every day, still, in the whole world, it's still a drop in the bucket of people that are actually doing it. By you doing it, by someone else doing it, might be enough to make somebody else say, hey, I could do something cool like that. I could share my recipe that I make meatballs with. Whatever.

Matt Tinkler (01:28:44.074)

hundreds of thousands.

Matt Tinkler (01:29:04.34)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:29:06.516)

Just be creative and sharing. It's cool.

Matt Tinkler (01:29:09.61)

Yeah, I reckon that's Yeah. Important to share. 100%.

Brian Funk (01:29:17.716)

Preaching to the choir,

Matt Tinkler (01:29:19.668)

Yeah, exactly. Well, hopefully someone listening to this, maybe, yeah, you've never shared your music before or whatever it is you do. Hopefully it inspires you to share something.

Brian Funk (01:29:22.13)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:29:31.37)

Well, you know what, Matt? 10 years from now, one of us might put this conversation on just for the hell of it. And we haven't put any music out in six years and be like, you know what? So it might even come back around.

Matt Tinkler (01:29:38.037)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:29:45.726)

It could very well do.

Brian Funk (01:29:51.905)

So maybe we'll wrap this up. You probably want to get your day started and my day is ending fast here in the past, here in the future over in Australia. But we should send people to Matt Tinkler Music on YouTube. That's a good spot to find you. Also, that's your website. Smart keeping that together, all the same. I think that's also your Instagram, right? Yeah, same thing.

Matt Tinkler (01:29:54.708)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Matt Tinkler (01:30:11.368)

Absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. It is, yep, Matt Tinkler music everywhere.

Brian Funk (01:30:22.214)

everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, I think if you're listening, check it out. There's a lot of really good stuff, lot of inspirational stuff, also technical how-tos and but yeah, not just here's what this button does, but here's something cool you can do with this button. I like that kind of tutorial a lot. That's the stuff you're doing.

Matt Tinkler (01:30:23.626)

Yeah, I just searched on Google.

Brian Funk (01:30:47.366)

And yeah, I think this will be out in time for the next Aspect Music Academy run that you're doing. said early February. We'll make sure it gets out in time for that so people can have a chance to join in.

Matt Tinkler (01:31:00.276)

Awesome. Yeah, cool. Yeah, no, thanks for having me Brian. has been really amazing. I love having chats like this.

Brian Funk (01:31:05.044)

Yeah, awesome talking to you. I knew it would be, but I didn't disappoint.

Matt Tinkler (01:31:09.576)

Yeah, well, I'm always happy to chat, you know, do this again sometime, because this is really cool. I love talking about creative process and music and just life and in general, it's always fascinating hearing people that are really passionate talking about their things and being passionate. Yeah, it's super cool. So I really appreciate you taking the time and inviting me on. It's been really cool.

Brian Funk (01:31:34.783)

Yeah, well thanks for being here. And thank you to everyone listening. If you want somebody that's inspired to help get you be inspired and be enthusiastic about making music with, Matt is your guy. So check him out, Matt Tinkler Music everywhere.

Matt Tinkler (01:31:52.854)

Sweet. Thanks, Brian. Cheers.

Aqeel and Tyler spoke to me about their collaboration on the new plug-in, and how they came to work together. We covered the creative process of developing plug-ins and some of the artistic choices and sacrifices made to help create a device that is inspiring and deep without being overwhelming. Tyler discussed the inspiration and creation process of his new album as Blankfor.ms called After the Town Was Swept Away.

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Outgrowth - https://aqeelaadamsound.com/b/outgrowth

• Aqeel Aadam Sound - https://aqeelaadamsound.com

• Blankfor.ms - https://www.blankfor-ms.com/

• After the Town Was Swept Away by Blankfor.ms - https://www.blankfor-ms.com/music/after-the-town-was-swept-away

• Aqeel Aadam Sound Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/aqeelaadamsound

• Aqeel's Personal Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/aqeel.aadam

• Aqeel's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@AqeelAadam

• Aqeel on Bandcamp - https://aqeelaadam.bandcamp.com

• Aqeel Aadam on Music Production Podcast #404 - https://brianfunk.com/blog/aqeel-aadam

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!