Kevin and I spoke in depth about the art and magic of songwriting , collaborating, and touching peoples’ lives with music. We discussed the future of AI music and how his company Soundbreak is helping artists license their musical styles for generative AI music. 

This episode is dedicated to (not sponsored by!) Darwin Audio and his awesome vintage soda/beer can microphones: https://darwinaudio.net

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Kevin Griffin's Website - https://www.kevingriffinmusic.com

• Soundbreak AI - https://www.soundbreak.ai

• Better Than Ezra - https://www.betterthanezra.com

• Kevin's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/kevinmgriffin/

• SoundBreak AI's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/soundbreak.ai/

• Better Than Ezra's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/betterthanezra/

• The Greatest Song by Kevin Griffin - https://amzn.to/4vqYERG

• Do Schools Kill Creativity by Sir Ken Robinson - https://www.ted.com/talks/sir_ken_robinson_do_schools_kill_creativity

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:00.534)

Welcome to the show, Kevin. Nice to see you today.

Kevin Griffin (00:06.091)

Thank you brother, I'm glad to be here on this beautiful spring day.

Brian Funk (00:11.808)

Yeah, as I was telling you before, Better Than Ezra is definitely a household name around here. Part of my growing up in high school is when that song came out, so we all knew it. And personally, I think the 90s was one of the great musical decades, and to have a song be that popular at that time is a real statement to you as an artist, to the band. And thanks for making cool stuff.

Kevin Griffin (00:39.955)

Well, thank you brother and your opinion it matters highly, know, and I'm a fan of what you do as well. Yeah, you know, when we were in the 90s making the music, you always think that this will never sound dated or of an era. And then time goes by and I look back at it now and I look when I listen to our albums or maybe lithium, you know, on Sirius XM, I'm like.

It has a sound. It was a sound of bands, maybe a three-piece, we were a three-piece, a four-piece, in a studio making music.

Sometimes there's a click track, others not, but very little post editing because it really wasn't possible. We were still in the world of analog recording and it had a sound. There was that compression that was...

we were using and things just had the sound. And the good news is that it aged really well, I think. It sounds really refreshing and it's funny, know, a lot of my time is spent writing with young bands and young artists. And so many of them are trying to, I think they're kind of scared when they're working with me. They want to say, we want a 90 sound, you know, but they don't even know how to articulate it sometimes, but I can tell like, oh, you want this kind of sound. And I was just working with a kid who just got signed

Warner Records and he said, kind of want to do something that feels like this and he pulled up circles by soul coughing. And I'm like, I can do that in my sleep. Just that sound, so thank you. It was such a cool time and I'm happy to be on here and we can talk about that and other things as well.

Brian Funk (02:20.061)

It's my wheelhouse.

Brian Funk (02:31.744)

I guess part of what happened in the nineties is we had the eighties and like drum machines and synthesizers and know, gated reverbs on snare drums and all this over the top production. And then there was a pushback of, Hey, you know, let's dial it back a little more authentic to what the band actually sounds like. And I guess that that holds up because that's what a band sounds like. It doesn't have all those maybe

kind of time stamped production techniques on it.

Kevin Griffin (03:03.729)

Yeah, mean, you're absolutely right. The 80s, whether it was more like New Wave, like...

well, just new wave artists, there was that gated reverb, whether it was in pop like Genesis or it was a lot of the British bands, know, Depeche Mode and stuff like that. It was so synth heavy, even going back to the early 80s with Thomas Dolby. But, or the big rock bands at the time, I those Foreigner, Journey, mean, was so, in Mut Lang, it was so incredibly produced that it was daunting, you know, because I couldn't sing

those notes. We didn't have that production. So I think coming out of the college radio scene was a reaction to it and it came out with bands like R.A.M. and even though there was some gated reverb, know, snare, like on the Murmur record, but then bands like the Pixies and stuff. And then you get into the early 90s where it's a complete

turning of the back on over production. And when we were making albums, was like, we were really overt as like, if we had any BVs, they had to be buried. Anything that smacked of over production was really repellent. And it needed to feel really raw and immediate and maybe a refutation, is that a word? Of what...

we had grown up listening to. And maybe it was probably because we didn't like it stylistically. Though still respected it, but honestly, we didn't have the ability to do it. So for me, was like when bands like REM and Pixies and the Smiths that were really influencing me came along, I was like, my God, I can make this kind of music and I can sing these kind of songs. And that was really exciting because it really felt hopeless for a

Kevin Griffin (05:15.027)

time.

Brian Funk (05:16.908)

Yeah, well, growing up for me in the 80s, I was born 1980, and I mean, all of those bands, they seem so larger than life. It never occurred to me that I could play music if I got a guitar until like the 90s came along. And then it was like, hey, that's not that hard. It's not finger tapping and crazy solos. And like you said, it was like accessible. Like we could play power chords.

Kevin Griffin (05:41.097)

It was really, it's really, you could play it. You could play it and look, don't get me wrong.

I'm a massive 80s fan, you know, and I love that. I love that music, whether it is crazy produced stuff that, know, Mutt Lang did with with Def Leppard, you know, and all that kind of stuff. But my heart is really in the prior years with maybe a tradition of like Creedence Clearwater, you know, and those bands that were more simple, just just and Tom Petty, you know, just great songwriting, but it's stripped down.

Brian Funk (05:50.748)

I love it too, yeah.

Kevin Griffin (06:17.858)

Stuff that for me, like you said, I didn't have to have the talent on guitar like Eddie Van Halen and the finger tapping and stuff. And it felt really accessible. And honestly, know, I very early on, like Good was really an attempt to write a song that was the same four chords, just using dynamics. That song was built on a DNA of a Dylan song meets a Pixie song. Let's use distortion.

loud, quiet, loud to make those segues and those transitions between parts. And man, I tell you, I love...

I love that in my own small way for kids of a certain generation, good is one of those songs you had to learn in your first band because it was so easy and it sounded so great with minimal talent or minimal proficiency on your, not talent, but minimal proficiency on your instrument. And then you throw it into C7 and suddenly it sounded like 90s rock. It's G major, D major, E minor, C major seven.

and then suddenly you were making you had to have the evil chord Brian there had to be an evil chord in the C major 7 added the menacing evil that I was looking for

Brian Funk (07:32.8)

Yeah, something a little menacing.

Brian Funk (07:41.708)

Yeah, I can remember realizing that chord actually being like, ooh, that's like a little out of the key kind of. cause that bass line, I mean, the first time I think I picked up a bass, that was like one of the go-to bass lines to play of the day. You know, you had like, maybe like long view by green day and, violent femmes, a flister in the sun.

Kevin Griffin (07:49.622)

Ugh. I didn't even know where I got it.

Kevin Griffin (08:03.42)

Yeah, it's crazy, you know.

You know, those classic records and you know, Tom, he was playing a Spectre bass and that Spectre was the sound of the 80s and the 90s. It just has such a sound to it. You know, simplicity, the hardest thing to do is write a convincing song that's just super simple. And especially as you get older, you're always wanting to impress yourself and not repeat yourself. So keeping it simple. mean, going back to Tom Petty, he was the master throughout his career of doing

deceptively simple stuff but it's just brilliant and that's kind of where I'm always trying to get to cut away the fat and get to what really matters with this song or the production.

Brian Funk (08:51.636)

I like that you bring that up because this is something I deal with almost every time I try to put a song together. There's the part of me that wants to be a little clever, have something unusual happen, you know, maybe to prove to myself that I've been playing music for all these years or whatever it is. But yeah, you want something in there, but it's when I'm thinking that way that nothing happens. But when I just decide to let it be simple, not worry about that stuff.

Kevin Griffin (09:08.245)

Right.

Brian Funk (09:21.632)

then things can come together. Most of my favorite songs are relatively simple. Maybe there's a little twist here or there. But it's kind of tricky to find that spot that you're mentioning. And something I wanted to ask you about songwriting too is just finding that zone where... Because you have to be somewhat judgmental to what you're doing, but you also have to kind of open up and be vulnerable.

Kevin Griffin (09:47.997)

of this year.

Brian Funk (09:51.109)

find what's going on. It can be a hard place to find. It's almost two places at once.

Kevin Griffin (09:55.635)

It, you know, early, early on writing, you know, my first song I recorded, was 12, I was in a band called Aces Up, a very junior high band name, and we won a songwriting contest.

a band, battle of the bands for a country music station in Monroe, Louisiana and we won it and we got to record a 45 and on Side A was a song I wrote with my guitar teacher called Seek, Find, Destroy about aliens of course coming to the planet.

Brian Funk (10:30.444)

Nice. Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (10:30.62)

I was ahead of the curve, Brian. And then this B-side was a cover of Cold Gin by Kiss. But the point is, I started off, but then I kind of languished, and then the real songwriting happened with Better Than Ezra. when you start off, you're not trying to outdo your old work because you don't have any old work. So those songs were just simple because that's all I knew. I think later I got

to where I was like okay have I done this before have I done this chord progression is this a evolution for me as a songwriter is this cool you know and all those questions make you second-guess for me the challenge is I don't want to get wrapped up and bogged down by second-guessing myself but before the idea even comes one thing that really helped me is you know

five years after our debut album came out nationally, that's when I first started co-writing. And co-writing allowed me to, all those considerations, I just left them behind. And suddenly when I was co-writing, I was just...

writing with somebody for the first time and it was this freeing experience of let's just write the best song I don't really know much about you let's just write this great song with no other considerations and suddenly it re and not only made me a really good co-writer but it reinvigorated my own writing to where I was reminded because I was having success as a co-writer I was like shit quit overthinking it just have fun and just dumb it down and just and

Brian Funk (12:06.188)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (12:17.662)

And when I say dumb it down, it doesn't mean make it less than, but just get rid of the BS and just judicious editing. So I'm constantly, I would say...

That was for me, working with other people has been the key for me to continue to keep learning new tricks, because I'm always working with different people. And a lot of times they're younger than me, and that bag of tricks, they grew up listening to, maybe they grew up as an emo kid, maybe they grew up listening to bands that, know, bedroom pop or whatever. And so I'm constantly picking up new tricks, new corporate records.

you know, lyrics fresh. And so, yeah, collaboration keeps me, to your point, keeps me keeping it simple and keeping my eye on the prize, which is just, you know, I've written so many, I've written those songs that have the time signature changes and the modulations, and nobody likes those. Well, you know, a small group does, but they're always like,

Brian Funk (13:24.266)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (13:30.056)

What about this song with two chords about your dog? I'm like, not that song, but yeah.

Brian Funk (13:36.31)

Hmm.

Yeah, the intellectual stuff. And half the time it goes unnoticed. Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (13:40.873)

Yeah, which is great and I love it. But yeah, it's just about getting to that essence and what really just hits you in the gut. And when I can lose all those considerations like I mentioned, and then I'm riding from a position of just what feels good right then. And that's when I'm way more liable to catch that.

Brian Funk (13:46.124)

.

Kevin Griffin (14:08.582)

crazy song that's floating around in the room. know, I have a little piece of paper on my monitor of my studio that says the song is always there because I really believe that. And if I can be in tune enough to get that song that day, then...

to win. And then there are those people like Paul McCartney whose their antenna is just better than all of ours. know, they're going to get that, they're going to find that inspiration in the room way more often than the rest of us. But the goal is just to keep trying.

Brian Funk (14:32.364)

you

Brian Funk (14:40.748)

I felt like that too, that it's almost like fishing or something or swinging a net around in the air and trying to catch them before they get away. And the thing that lets them get away is the second guessing. It's the judging it before it's even had a chance to become anything.

Kevin Griffin (14:46.782)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (14:59.646)

It's funny, you're right. And there's some writers I work with here in Nashville. They're so damn talented. But I don't collaborate with them as much anymore because they're so full of self-doubt and second guessing and full of wanting to talk about the futility of the music business before we even write a song that I'm just defeated by the time.

You finally say 45 minutes into the session, well, let's write a song, even though it's pointless. You know what I mean? So I'm just, I just, the more I can just be playful and full of wonder about writing it and just like saying, fuck, why wouldn't we do this? Let's just do it. Then it gets really fun. And that's when you just get lightning in a bottle.

Brian Funk (15:50.068)

Yeah, I like that and collaborating has been a huge help. The band I play in right now is a three-piece band and we don't bring songs to the band. We just play and see what comes out and you blabber lyrics and sometimes you say something or someone else says something or they thought you said this and all this weird interaction happens. And the goal has become so much more. We just want to keep playing. We just want to play. So we need something and

Kevin Griffin (15:53.983)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (16:06.334)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:18.75)

If it's an idea I love and someone else doesn't like or whatever, who cares? Fine, move on. Nothing's precious. The goal is the long game of playing together, not I need this guitar part in a song.

Kevin Griffin (16:31.712)

it is the long game and I say that a lot when I talk about songwriting is that I'm really at the point, maybe there was a time where I was more protective about my songwriting, but now I'm just like.

Who am I writing with today? Is it one person or am I writing with the whole band? And some people, there would be a time where I'd be like, wait, I'm writing with the five piece, there's gonna be six people in the room. Why am I doing it? I'm splitting a song six ways. But now I'm just like, bring it, man, because let's write a great song together and it's the long game. The biggest dividends in a music career are...

working with people that you love over and over again, know, repeat business. And I'd rather have a hit that was a six-way split, or these days in the pop world, it could be a 20-way split, you know, and work with them again and have a hit to my name as opposed to, you know, like, just being me or me and another person, and that song just sits on a hard drive somewhere because it's not as good as it could have been, you know?

Brian Funk (17:45.6)

Right. That's, guess, ego, right? Letting go of that. It's so important.

Kevin Griffin (17:49.473)

Yeah, is ego and getting ego as a friend said to me, my ego is not my amigo.

Brian Funk (18:01.1)

There's a song in there.

Kevin Griffin (18:02.462)

You know, that should be in my studio too. You know, just lose the ego, man. And that's when stuff gets really fun.

Brian Funk (18:09.772)

So you make me think of, I wrote this down, I guess it's the, I don't know if it's forward, but in the beginning of your book, the book is The Greatest Song, which I just started listening to, so I'm already like, okay, cool, I'm gonna like this. Yeah, yeah, because I saw you were reading it, so was like, yeah, I wanna hear you tell me the story.

Kevin Griffin (18:26.144)

good, you got the audio book.

Kevin Griffin (18:34.126)

dude, I had so much fun making it. I did that with a guy who is a great producer of audiobooks and it's Mark. god, I'm spacing. I'll get the name. It'll be in the credits. And he did a great job with all the foley, all the sound effects. There's original songs. And then there's my...

accents that I used for the different characters. I don't know if you've gotten to those yet. I kept asking him, I was like, am I gonna get canceled for any of these accents that I'm doing? Am I clueless and being really offensive? And he's like, no, it sounds great, go, go.

Brian Funk (19:17.516)

Yeah, right. I guess you had to think about that. But you got the Picasso quote about all children are artists and something they got as the struggle is staying an artist or something along those lines.

Kevin Griffin (19:20.294)

sorry, but you were saying, there's, beginning of the book.

Kevin Griffin (19:26.485)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (19:30.91)

Yeah, we're all born artists. The challenge is how do you stay an artist as you get older? Or put another way, how do you grow into your creativity as opposed to out of it? You know?

Brian Funk (19:42.592)

Yeah, I find that childlike wonder is the best place for me to be making music. And I don't think I mentioned it, Steve, but I teach high school English. That's my grown up job here.

Kevin Griffin (19:56.146)

I'm an English major from LSU at LSU. Go Tigers. I have such high respect for you. Good for you being a teacher.

Brian Funk (19:59.508)

Okay, nice. Very good.

Brian Funk (20:06.268)

thank you. We're on break now, so it's great. now we just took a break.

Kevin Griffin (20:10.496)

I'm so happy there's no school, no work tomorrow, Good Friday. Did I just ruin the impression that this was a brand new? I can say that it's... Okay, good. You can edit that out.

Brian Funk (20:15.061)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (20:22.066)

No, it'll be relatively new. That's fine. These are evergreen things, right? But I was in the ninth grade when I started playing guitar and I see a lot of kids that have already decided, I can't do this. I'm not this kind of person. I'm not artistic. I'm not that. Like they already kind of let go of that. And this year,

for the first time I've taught a few middle school classes and they're a little bit younger and they're a lot more willing to just try it and just play with it and draw. Yeah, can we draw pictures today? Okay, cool. Not where the high school kids say, I don't know how to draw. I'm not good at drawing. It's funny how, and it's probably school that does it, but somewhere along the way it gets kind of beaten out of you. it's that same thing we were talking about before. Is this song complicated enough and intelligent enough?

Kevin Griffin (21:18.377)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (21:19.05)

then we think ourselves out of the fun of actually making it. Great quote to open the book with.

Kevin Griffin (21:23.04)

Well, there's a great TED Talk. If you get nothing from listening to this today.

watch Sir Ken Robinson or Sir Kenneth Robinson's talk, it's his TED Talk. It's one of the most streamed TED Talks ever. He was a educator who passed away maybe five or six years ago. And the whole talk is about how our education system beats creativity out of you. And he said, and I love this and I use it in the book,

that you'll never come up with anything truly groundbreaking unless you're prepared to fail, that the people I know who are the most successful are, I call it dare to be stupid, know, just lose the filter and just throw crazy ideas out there and don't second guess yourself. That's when you get the great ideas. That's when you get hit songs. And some of the biggest songwriters I worked with in Nashville, they don't have a filter, man. They're lyrically, musically,

Brian Funk (22:16.684)

Weirdo.

Kevin Griffin (22:33.154)

Basically, the top line, they're just throwing shit out there without any care in the world. And a lot of it is just junk. And then suddenly you're like, wait, what did you just say? Heavy metal, she was a heavy metal pedal steel player. I'll never forget when JT Harding, who's a successful songwriter, said that to me in a song. We were writing a country pitch.

But yeah, just keeping that childlike wonder is key. And I'm always just coming back to that when I'm writing. I'm just like, what is silly? What is fun? And it just serves, it continues to serve me well. And also, I think there's a real gift we have as songwriters that we get. And we're able to see...

at a very young age, you're writing songs, how an idea is ephemeral and...

intangible as a song, just an idea, a melody you're singing, how that can turn into, go from an idea, just a hook into a song, and then the song can become a song your band plays, and then that can become a recording, and then that can become a single, and that can become a hit single, and then suddenly it can be a thing that started in your bedroom as this silly little idea, it could change your life, and not only change your life, but

but a lot of people's lives. as songwriters, we get to see that all the time. So being a songwriter has served me so well in my life because I do, whether it's starting a music festival in Franklin or doing other business things or doing an AI music platform, I'm like, I know that if I have a great idea, if I just don't quit and I just keep doing the next best thing,

Kevin Griffin (24:35.006)

I'll get there. And songs writing has proven that to me.

Brian Funk (24:40.876)

Sure, because you're pulling it out of thin air. It didn't exist. And it's a magic trick pretty much.

Kevin Griffin (24:43.988)

Yeah, you know, and it is, it's crazy. It's a magic trick and it's awesome. I don't get tired of it, man. Other people I know who are my age are all talking about retiring and I'm like.

Kidding me? This is my dream. This is the dream I dreamed of when I was 11. I'm getting to do this fucking stupid thing I get to do. It's awesome. Even playing live.

Brian Funk (25:14.06)

Let me ask you about those moments. If you take a song like Good or even some of the other singles and hits you guys had, are you aware of it? You're in the studio, you're writing it maybe with the band. Are you guys like, this is going to be the one, we've got something here. How does that feel?

Kevin Griffin (25:40.541)

You know, there are certain songs that the minute... Well, there's a lot of... There are certain songs when you write them, you're like, my God, this is a hit course. This song is by all definitions, the boxes you need to check, it's a hit. We knew with, with Good, that was written, those, the wah-ah lyrics aren't even the finished lyrics. That, we played it the...

two days or the night that I played it for the band the first time. And we were like, let's just play it. And I'll just mumble. I've always had a great propensity to make up gibberish lyrics as I go along. So not having a lyrics finish has never been a hindrance to playing a song live. And we knew that night we finished our set. played like, back in the day, you play for four hours. You're playing your few...

Brian Funk (26:26.667)

Right.

Kevin Griffin (26:36.614)

originals and then you're playing tons of you know covers and we were playing Hoodoo Gurus and Smiths and Pixies and REM and Replacements, Husker Du, Better Than Ezra and we got off the stage we were in Jackson Mississippi and people came up to us they didn't say what was that song and they're that's

unsatisfied by replacements or that's pop song 89 REM. Nobody was asking about those songs. They were all asking about this song. What's that's wah song. I was like, that's our new song. So I knew then, then there's songs like, you know, stuck like glue. I knew when, when we, when I brought that demo home that day from the studio, I knew that was a hit song, but you know, collide. knew collide how we day was a hit. but I gotta say,

Brian Funk (27:09.268)

huh.

Kevin Griffin (27:28.852)

I've been doing it long enough that there have been a lot of those that I'm like, this is a hit song, but now comes that weird alchemy of things happening that you can't plan. Like number one, the song has to be at that level to be a hit, but then it's gotta be, the band.

Brian Funk (27:40.204)

you

Kevin Griffin (27:52.865)

Is the artist on top of their game? Are they going to bring it home? Is the label in a position to make the single happen? Is the management on, are they clicking? There's so much stuff that has to happen. And then there's just the, then there's just the, the luck, you know, the PD, the program director at the station, he just happens to start playing it. You know, so, so I've come to terms with

hey, I've written a lot of songs that could be hits. I've been lucky to have some, but there's a whole chunk of them that if those things that would have happened the right way, those could have been hits too. But you do know the ones that are really good. And the challenge is not getting cynical because the songs that should have been hits weren't.

Brian Funk (28:28.086)

Hmm.

Kevin Griffin (28:41.094)

And the kiss of death in the music business, maybe every business, but I only know this one, is getting cynical and bitter about how hard it is. At some point I just was like, next, move along. And worst case, if that song didn't become a hit for somebody, I'll just record it myself. I always love giving songs second chances.

Brian Funk (28:52.278)

Uh-huh.

Brian Funk (29:03.756)

Hmm.

Yeah, that's cool. Well, those are factors you have little control over. All the planets aligning and the timing and you never know something happens in the news that day and it's released and it just... Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (29:13.48)

Yeah, they really do a lot. There's so many stories.

Or the right placement. mean, you know a couple of great examples. Goo Goo Dolls, their album had come out. This is 90s. They were this close to being dropped by Warner Records and Kevin Weatherly at K-Rock heard name on the second side of whatever, maybe a boy named Goo, I'm not sure.

and started playing name, not because just because he loved the song. Boom. It was a hit. K rock, the biggest station in alt rock at that time, you know, train, hey, soul sister. It wasn't reacting. Then they got a placement in, I think it was a Sanyo or a Panasonic flat screen television commercial. Boom.

it happened that way and you can never, you can't predict those things, you know, and you got to be good with that. Otherwise it's a very soul crushing business.

Brian Funk (30:21.196)

Those are out of your control and luck. Somebody just decides, gets placed here or there. That's, guess, what you do and you just keep shooting, keep shooting the shot. Even though the net is moving constantly, it might not even be there today.

Kevin Griffin (30:30.047)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (30:37.236)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (30:44.764)

Absolutely, you know, and at the same time, you try to make the, you try to produce music that's, that is, you know, timeless in the studio, work with great people and just make, at the end of the day, and this is a cliche, it's just like, you gotta satisfy yourself. If you're satisfied, that's the bar.

Satisfy yourself. So whatever happens, you don't have any regrets and you can always go back and go, that's fucking rad. I love it. I've got so many songs that, know, such high hopes and nothing happened on a big scale, you know, and, and, I'm, I'm fine with it, you know, because that's just, it is the, it is the lottery. It is the, the, the gamble of this business, you know.

Brian Funk (31:39.756)

But the payoff is you get to do it. You get to make that stuff. So, yeah. You get to show up and that's work. Right?

Kevin Griffin (31:41.689)

Ugh, that's the best.

Kevin Griffin (31:50.561)

I love every day man. I love what I do. And I'm always you know, there's a guy Have you worked have you had John Feldman on your Podcast Feldman's a lead singer songwriter of Goldfinger He's also a big songwriter producer for you blink 182 and a lot a lot of other people

Brian Funk (32:08.724)

Yeah.

Okay, yeah.

Brian Funk (32:19.478)

Hmm.

Kevin Griffin (32:20.082)

And he is just like, he's a huge personality. one time we were working together and he was like, Kevin, walk out with me to the balcony. And I walk outside with him and he's like, look at everything I've got. He said that, but he goes, say this with me. And I'm like, what? He goes.

Brian Funk (32:38.252)

you

Kevin Griffin (32:45.054)

And he screamed, he shouts out to the woods, I love my life. And I'm like, he goes, say it. I'm like, I love my life. And he goes, no, say it like you mean it. And I was like, I love my life. And there is a transformative power to speaking something that you really feel.

There's a saying like when you spell something out you're casting a spell words really matter and and all the time if If I'm feeling like what do I got today? I got to write with that band. I'm like, are you kidding me? I got a right I get to write I get to do this thing that I love to do and that's I go off fucking love I love my life even on shitty days, you know, it's such it sounds so stupid You know, but but but it you know, there's that whole manifold

Brian Funk (33:32.864)

No, no.

Kevin Griffin (33:36.636)

thing, the longer I've been around the more I believe in all the stuff that I used to roll my eyes about.

Brian Funk (33:42.54)

Well, I mean, what is the ultimate goal here, right? You you want all the success we strive for. We want to love our life. We want to be happy. There's the John Lennon quote I have on my classroom. It's something to the effect of when I was younger, the teachers asked me what I wanted to be. And I said, happy. And they said, you don't understand the question. He said, no, you don't understand life.

Kevin Griffin (33:54.496)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (34:06.56)

Brian Funk (34:10.121)

If you got that on the wall for the kids, just... and me. Remember that. What are we doing this for? Trying to be happy.

Kevin Griffin (34:12.82)

Dude, it's all true.

It's true, you know, and I think it's a really noble, making music, producing music, writing music, performing music. It's a noble path. You you bring happiness and memories and stuff to people. You get to be a part of their life in a really cool way. It's really, it's a real privilege.

Brian Funk (34:42.536)

I agree. And I've been through times where I wonder, you know, the self doubt can creep in and there's so many problems in the world and here I am making little sounds and silly songs. And there have been times where I've been pretty down about it even. it's ironically music that pulls me out of it. It's putting on some music and then you realize this is powerful stuff and

Kevin Griffin (35:05.365)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (35:10.332)

how many times in just my own life and people I know's life where a song brought them through it or something happened and you hear the music and it changes how you feel and see things. It's, you know, we might not have the ability to quantify it but it is, it's real. There's not a number or a statistic.

Kevin Griffin (35:32.161)

No, it's, you know, and people have tried to quantify, know, MRIs while listening to music or what classical music or different types of music does to the brain and in the chemistry of the body, it's real, you know. Yeah, you know, but also to your point, you know, getting deflated and stuff, you go through phases, you know, where,

you're more productive or more creative than others. Sometimes the best thing to do when I'm in one of those funk, especially just a day when I'm supposed to be writing, some days you're just on and some days you're off. My thing is lately I just like, okay, it's one of those days. It's just not in the room. just, I won't force it or what I'll do is I'll just stop trying to make music and I just listen to music, you know, and

And that just kind of unlocks, usually it's the Beatles. It just unlocks this thing that then suddenly I can write again. Just listening to amazing music to me always inspires me in my own music. Yeah, you can't force it. I can anyways. But I also just don't get down. I don't get down when, you know,

Brian Funk (36:56.982)

I mean,

Kevin Griffin (37:01.618)

Some days I bring the heat, some days I don't. And I'm depending on that other writer. I hate it when it's that way, but it was just meant to be.

Brian Funk (37:12.3)

Hmm. Well, and speaking about like collaborating and writing for other artists, do you find anything different going on with you in your own process when you're writing a song for you, for the band maybe, compared to, okay, we're working with this artist and we're collaborating and it's, you kind of know that it's going to be their song to sing and perform.

Kevin Griffin (37:34.047)

Yeah. Well, for sure. You know, like what I was saying earlier, it's way, way more freeing when I'm collaborating with someone.

it's way easier to write, because I'm not thinking of all that internal bullshit that I have. Have I done this before? Is this cool? Is this different than anything I've done in the past? Because that really trips me up. So what I'm writing was with another artist. And it's funny, because I get to see them with their own internal struggle, like...

Is this cool? Have I done this before? When we're writing it, and I'm just this, I'm like a fire extinguishing, I'm like a fire hydrant that's been opened. I'm just spewing out these ideas and melodies and stuff.

Brian Funk (38:14.987)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (38:33.33)

as something in collaborations because I'm just not thinking about all those other considerations that trip me up. So it's way easier to write and finish a song when I'm collaborating with another artist. I love getting kind of...

But I do a lot of due diligence when I work with another artist. I listen to their music and see where they're coming from. Because I think my job is to help them do what they do, maybe not better, but just differently. Just be that band member they don't have. because I'm such a fan of music, I'm pretty good at wearing different hats.

stylistically, whether I'm working with a band that's an East Nashville band and it's like indie garage or it's super minimalist, you know, bedroom pop. I've used that term once before. When I'm writing for myself, I just know songs that are only going to speak to me, you know.

And I just, on my iPhone, on my voice memo notes, I just say BTE. BTE. Some ideas I know are for me, but collaborating, writing for others is way easier than writing for myself.

Brian Funk (40:02.368)

Hmm. It's nice to have a little feedback and a little kind of a, no, that's good. That's good. Stop worrying about it from another person or, even when your energy gets a little low. I've had this a lot with the band where maybe I wasn't going to write down the lyrics today. I would have done it tomorrow, but they're like, let's just get this thing done. I'm like, okay, okay. Like let's, you know, that little extra push the energy when you don't have it.

Kevin Griffin (40:12.424)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (40:23.957)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (40:29.226)

There's a real cool discipline about, and I love this, going in at 11 a.m. in Nashville and leaving at three o'clock, four o'clock at the latest, and you've got a song that didn't exist before. And whatever you can say about the music industry, every time you go into a song write, you have the potential to leave that room with something that will change your life.

And that is, and I think Jonathan Daniel told me, said that. And Jonathan Daniel as a music manager at Crush, he manages Weezer, Panic at the Disco when they were together, Sia, Miley Cyrus. He's a great guy. He's a musician himself. But it's really true. Every time you go in, you don't know.

you you have the ability to do something that will change your life. You know, and that keeps me coming back. You know, just that, you know, roll of the dice is really cool. As opposed, it really is. mean, you know, and I love writing a song with a band.

Brian Funk (41:35.304)

That's a great attitude to step into it.

Kevin Griffin (41:44.255)

You know, and then an hour later the manager calls me, you know, the band loves the song, you know, that's just the best, man. And I'm like, well, that was a good day. You know, check the box. I did something. I accomplished something. I wrote a song. It's cool.

Brian Funk (42:00.14)

I don't know her.

Kevin Griffin (42:03.359)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (42:05.516)

Well, speaking of the direction of the music industry, you are, and you've done this throughout your career. You've pivoted, you've adjusted. I've, I heard you speaking about even just with Better Than Ezra at one point where I think you said the label had dropped you guys and now it's like, what are we going to do? And that's part of the collaborating songwriting with others. You've managed to carve a career.

Kevin Griffin (42:09.96)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (42:30.016)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (42:35.506)

out of not just one aspect of it, but multiple angles, instead of just, say, playing in the band. And now you're in a new one. You've kind of jumping on what seems to be an unstoppable wave.

Kevin Griffin (42:53.726)

Well, yeah, to answer kind of our comment on, you know, I tell people like, look, if my career, if I had been in Coldplay or Green Day, which was an all consuming entity, then I wouldn't have felt maybe the need are to...

figure out other things I can do within music, know, whether it was collaborating or publishing or managing or starting a music festival. because Better Than Ezra is awesome and I love, we just got back from a tour that was great of the Northeast. Because it wasn't some arena stadium juggernaut, you know, even though we should have been, Brian.

Brian Funk (43:44.672)

This carriage of justice right there.

Kevin Griffin (43:45.889)

You know, I've done other things and my career is, I've had a great career because I have so many irons in the fire and I love just wearing different hats and learning new things within this industry. Because what's really cool, we're in the music industry, but until you're...

a festival producer or a music producer or a collaborator, it's a whole different discipline within one industry. So I dig that. But yes, the latest thing that I'm involved with and co-founded is a AI music startup that

was really begun as a response to seeing Suno. Let's talk just about Suno and UDO.

come into being in 2024, that's when everybody heard about it, April 2024. I saw what I immediately recognized as the potential to be this new and even more powerful thing that was gonna diminish my livelihood as a songwriter in a lot of the ways, but I think even more powerfully, that streaming did to songwriting royalties with Spotify and how little we get paid. almost two years.

ago, I became determined to start an AI platform that advocated for artists and songwriters in the AI world that would empower us to kind of call our own shots and help elevate the IP, which is how we write in this world. And we launched it a month ago. It's called Soundbreak AI.

Brian Funk (45:42.22)

This is a huge thing, think, for songwriters especially. mean, it's in every industry really. see it in my English classes with the papers students are turning in that are generated.

Kevin Griffin (45:54.807)

my God. I can only imagine. Do they know? Are they savvy enough to get rid of the long hyphen? That gives away the dash.

Brian Funk (46:01.068)

Yeah, they have Dash.

Sometimes it depends how much effort they want to put into it. Sometimes they get a little clever and they edit it. But sometimes they just hand me these like brochures, you know, talking about their colleagues at work. like, so your colleagues at work, huh? But yeah, with music as well. On one level, for me, I've not been

Kevin Griffin (46:22.41)

Jesus.

Brian Funk (46:33.6)

so worried about it because I like making music. I like playing the guitar and figuring out this puzzle and seeing what happens. So it's not necessarily just the outcome. So I know it can't take that from me, but what's happening with something like Suno that just is taking everybody and learning from them and no one gets credit for it.

Kevin Griffin (46:38.975)

Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (46:50.634)

feel the same way.

Brian Funk (47:01.832)

is definitely problematic and it's nice to see you guys taking some effort to deal with that and find a way to work with it. It seems like this is not going away. know, history has told us enough, right?

Kevin Griffin (47:04.136)

I agree.

Kevin Griffin (47:17.556)

No, no, it's only...

Yeah, it's only going to get bigger, you know, and just to kind of, a little history, know, Suno came out.

Really in April 2024 is when I first heard about it, Suno and UDO. But if you only talk about Suno, Suno is the big dog. Now it's valued at almost $2 billion. And they scraped the internet without any license, every piece of music they could and they continued to. And then they built an AI model on unlicensed music, mine, everybody's. And they came out with an AI platform where you could type

been a prompt and even version one was crazy compelling. You know, the RIAA Recording Industry Association of America on behalf of the major labels sued them immediately saying this is not fair use. You are infringing on our copyrights and that lawsuit probably will never, it'll get settled out of court. But when that happened and I started playing around with it and going to other songwriters and like, have you messed with this?

way was, like you said, this isn't going anywhere. It's too powerful. There's too much money to be made. So if I don't think of a way to advocate and be a voice at the table for songwriters, we're going to get left behind just like in the streaming world and more history. I immediately thought of 1998, Napster came out.

Kevin Griffin (49:03.658)

then it was.

BitTorrent streaming, LimeWire, and all those illegal sites to stream music. The labels sued. Spotify came out. The labels sued them. And guess what? They settled with them to settle the lawsuits. They said, just give us some equity in your company, Spotify. And so all the major labels own a part of Spotify. And the part that they care about, the master side of streaming, well, that pays very well.

And everybody, if you're a producer and you're listening to this, you know that you can upload your own song to DistroKit or TuneCore. The master side, can make some good money if your song is popular. But the songwriting side is criminally low. when Suno came out, I was like, okay, they're already indiscriminately, this is the same playbook. I know what's gonna happen and it's happening now. The labels are settling with Suno and UDO for a piece of the action and songwriters are gonna get left out. So I was like,

like why can't we build a platform that creates an AI version of your favorite songwriters and artists? Because my aha moment was when I did a little due diligence on AI. And the real simple explanation of AI is the ability to take a ton of data, whether it's language, like chat GBT, or music.

and be able to predict patterns. If you learn enough about anything, you can tell what the next thing's gonna be, whether it's language or music or mathematics, and music is mathematics. So I was like, wait a second, songwriters, we're all just a series of patterns, what we've learned, who we listen to, and people tell me all the time, they'll ask me, did you work on whatever song? And I'm like, yeah, how'd you know that? And they'll be like, I could tell when it hit the chorus, sounded

Kevin Griffin (51:01.034)

like one of your songs. And that was my aha moment. Like, well, songwriters were a series of patterns. I can change up the patterns, but as much as I want to believe I'm a jack of all trades, I do something kind of one thing really, really good. So I was like, wait, if we could create AI versions of those patterns unique to me, unique to Sam Hollander, Fitz and the Tantrums, all these different artists and create a platform that was trained on music that was licensed.

that were the rights holders of those masters were getting paid, unlike what Suno did, which is do it without any permission or pay. If we could create a way to pay the artists with subscriptions and ownership in the masters that their AI created, then at least in this world that isn't going anywhere, we could advocate and create a whole new income stream for musicians, for songwriters, for producers. And that was the lofty goal. And I got together with some guys in Nashville

who shared that same vision and had the technical know-how to do it. And that's what we've created with Soundbreak.

Brian Funk (52:09.228)

So you're able to go in to soundbreak and I did this earlier today and I picked you as the artist and I was able to create a song and I took a quote I heard you say, I think you said your father said it to you, nothing changes if nothing changes. I was like, I want to make a song called Nothing Changes if Nothing Changes.

Kevin Griffin (52:17.383)

yeah.

Kevin Griffin (52:30.218)

Yeah. I love that.

Brian Funk (52:35.144)

I told I wanted it like a 90s alternative sound, but with some modern elements. And it pumped it out. They gave me a couple examples and then it asked me if I wanted to revise it a little and I did a little revision to it. And it's amazing. It really is amazing just how we can create stuff like this. And I guess this is now taking kind of just is it

Kevin Griffin (52:40.329)

Right?

Brian Funk (53:04.84)

analyzing just your songwriting, your music and kind of...

Kevin Griffin (53:09.438)

Well, there's some, first off we have like a general AI model that's been trained on all the music that we license, you know, a bunch of different genres, and then we get together with every artist and we go through a series of verbal cues or prompts behind the curtain. And then we take masters that you own, that I own.

and we use that to refine the output. So it's a, there's some other stuff too, but behind the curtain.

The goal with every artist we have on Soundbreak is like if I type in, this is my go-to prompt, as lame as it sounds, write a song about my favorite pair of sneakers, call it I Love My Chucks. And if we've done our work right, mine will sound like, I decided I'm gonna be 90s, I'm gonna be in 90s indie rock. So if I've done it right, that I hit render, and it's gonna give me a song that sounds like that.

And if you're on David Ryan Harris, you're going to hit it, put that in, and it's going to sound like cool pop with a soulful back beat. So that's really the DNA of what we're building. And then you can download stems, take what you want, and really.

The play, the big thing was sound break. And we can get back to something that Suno does really cool that we don't do, but we're about to come out with, though it's a small part of the business, is if AI is not going anywhere and it's either lead or get left behind, I would rather make an attempt at leading and advocating for us in this new world. And I think there is a way.

Kevin Griffin (54:59.528)

to have a whole new way for artists to connect with their fans. And that is a way like, how cool is it if your favorite artist said, they go on their socials. Hey, come write with my AI on sound break. I'm going to be listening to the songs you make. Every month, I'm going to take my favorite song that you guys are.

written, I'm gonna play it on acoustic, I'll get your feedback, who knows, I might even record it for my new album. You know, when you start having stories like that, even, that's what Better Than Ezra's just done, we've just said, hey, write a song with us May 15th, we're gonna announce our favorite song and we're gonna record it as Better Than Ezra's next single. But we've been around a while, when we get artists that are, let's just shoot for the moon, when Harry Styles does something like that,

It's going to be a revolution in fan-artist connection. And it's going to create new creators. It's going to create a whole new creator class, like YouTube has done for video creators. I mean, before YouTube came along, the barriers to making video...

were so expensive that most people couldn't do it. YouTube came along and with an edit, with editing suite and different things on the iPhone, suddenly look what we're doing right here. You know what I mean? it created a whole new creator class. And I think that AI has the ability to do that with AI, with music. And there's going to be a whole group of people who are so savvy in the way they prompt and upload their own lyrics and massage the output of AI, maybe putting it into Ableton and

putting their own vocals. It's going to be really exciting. It's going to be different, man. It's going to be scary. But we got to get in there and as songwriters and be a part of this revolution. I think it's really cool. I'm already having dialogues with our fans that I've never had before. And it's really cool and how creative people are.

Brian Funk (57:00.428)

I think that is a really cool thing you guys are doing with inviting the fans to make something and tag it BTE so that, so you know, and that, hey, like we made this song, it'd be kind of cool if you guys played it almost or you guys took it and, you know, do whatever you want, I guess, interpolate it or maybe it's whatever you want. But that interaction is, that's a fun layer.

Kevin Griffin (57:10.09)

So we

Kevin Griffin (57:23.113)

Yes, you.

It's really, really cool.

It's really, you know, I've, and we have a way to communicate on soundbreak with, with users, or I can just direct message them on Instagram because you put in your, your, your Instagram username, you know, and I've, I've loved doing that. There's whole new fans that I didn't know were fans of the band and whether I'll repost, you know, a song somebody's done, but we're gonna, we're gonna take our favorite song and we're gonna, we'll re record it.

our way with our real humans playing the instruments, probably change the lyrics some. If there's any limitations, if you've tried to write lyrics using ChatGPT, it's hit or miss, it sounds like eighth grade poetry. Though, if you refine it, like, the few times I've used...

It's really just more advanced version of Rhyme Brain or Master Writer. You know, if I say, write me a song about going out on a Saturday night, well you get a, and call it, call it, till the sun comes up. The first thing you get back is really crappy. And then you say, write me a song about going out on a Saturday night with friends and getting crazy called till the sun comes up.

Kevin Griffin (58:53.906)

And that is little better. And there'll be a nugget or two, but then you say, okay, this is good, but make it edgier. Make it about going out in the East Village, New York on a Saturday night, staying up and watching the sun, make it dangerous, young and indie sounding. Then you get something that's, wow, that one line is fucking dope. And then that leads you to a whole lyrics you write. So.

The point of the reason I'm saying that is that we have that loop of refining that's behind the curtain on sound break is that...

in order to get our lyrics better, there's several different generations of lyrics that happen before you actually get your song. All that to be said is I know there will probably be some lyric, a lyric I won't want to change ultimately when Better Than Us records it. But I'm super bullish on it. I wanted to give musicians more freedom in this new world.

and selfishly a new income stream as artists. And there's a part on the platform where you can onboard yourself as an artist yourself. You don't need us to do it. You build your own studio. It's just really cool. It's just very personal.

And again, at the same time, it's a moving target. We're learning as we're going along. We're trying to do the right thing, being super transparent with all the artists who are on it, whether it's the artist agreement. And it's just like, it had to be something that I, as an artist, would want to be a part of.

Kevin Griffin (01:00:38.088)

I know I'm going on. I know I'm talking a lot. Just shut me up.

Brian Funk (01:00:38.358)

Well that's what I've-

Brian Funk (01:00:44.012)

Well, that's why you're here. I think the best one of these is when I say the least amount when we do these podcasts. you know, it's that's what I found interesting, you know, because there's a lot of AI, this and that coming out for all different sorts of stuff. And I get contacted about some of that once in a while. But hearing it's you behind it and you're a songwriter, you have an invested interest in songwriting and you're

built your life around it. You understand its importance and the humanity behind it and what it is for expression. as you said earlier, how your songs can affect people's lives. there's a lot that I guess some of the other plant, feels like that's all who cares about that stuff when you see some of this other AI things. It's just, yeah, make it, the computer makes a song and yeah.

Kevin Griffin (01:01:41.171)

Yeah, because artists, take, their billion dollar companies are built on our backs. They're not paying.

the rights holders and when I say that that's the masters that they they went on indiscriminately onto Spotify, YouTube music, you name it, SoundCloud and they just were a Hoover, a big vacuum and they just sucked it all up. Every artist we've already been off so my thing was yeah

They can't do that, you know, and if they're going to do it, meaning the labels get in bed with them and try to dictate. just, I've seen it happen before and I was just like, no, I can't, I won't be, I won't be asleep well at night if we didn't do something to advocate for ourselves. I don't want to be left behind like we were left behind and streaming.

Brian Funk (01:02:41.792)

How have you found the response to be so far?

Kevin Griffin (01:02:45.229)

you know what? Dude.

Brian Funk (01:02:46.676)

especially in the songwriter community, because I imagine there's got to be people that are on all sides of this debate.

Kevin Griffin (01:02:52.196)

They're on all sides of it. You know, I can tell you if you look at the everybody that's on the platform are friends and and the the bar that I wanted to get for these initial artists were unimpeachable Working-class songwriters people who have had Grammys Grammy noms Musicians and artists that no one could slag because they're the real deal

And I knew that when I told them what we were trying to create, my hope was that I've been blown away by once I said why we're doing what we're doing and what we're doing. Everybody's like, I'm in. Let me, you I'm in. And then when we...

got our talking points about why we're doing this, what soundbreak, why we're different, even though I knew that all of them, it was bulletproof because it is, we have legal counsel and we're like, tell us why this idea won't work. This is a year and a half ago. And so every little thing that we needed to do, we've done to protect the people who made the music and get them paid.

All that said, when we launched, I really expected to get slagged because AI is super polarizing. Most people though, react out of ignorance because they don't really know what's happening. They just say, AI, it's killing us, it's the death of creativity. You you suck. was good, you know.

But if you look at what's really happening and you educate yourself, then you're like, okay, this is rad. I get it. Good for you. All that said, I expected to get.

Kevin Griffin (01:04:41.566)

really railed on when we when we launched because I've learned a lot of times people like when I'm doing pilgrimage festival, I've learned that people usually and I'm guilty of this too. Like you know, once I've ever read something and you're like it doesn't say anything like you get an email from somebody like you didn't say anything about what I asked for and they go did you read my reply and you go yeah, we'll read the reply again and you didn't look at what they read at all. You didn't read it, you know, when you're reacting.

from ignorance. So I expected to get slagged. We did this big push with PR a month ago and I got one person on Facebook of course that was like, well it was good being a fan, unsubscribe. Other than that,

it's been amazing. There's been a few people, you know, like you guys, you guys always sucked. You wrote one song 30 years ago, you suck. You know, I'm like, fine. Delete. but here's a good example. yesterday I'm, I'm, I'm on the, you know, I'm a voting member of the Grammys, you know, and, and,

Brian Funk (01:05:36.62)

air.

Kevin Griffin (01:05:53.151)

And on the same day we launched a sound break in the morning, that day I was writing a bluegrass song with a bunch of great bluegrass people and we recorded it that day. No technology involved other than a microphone and Pro Tools, I guess. But yesterday I was on a panel talking about AI. It was a music advocacy panel at the Hermitage Hotel to a bunch of musicians, producers who were part of the Grammys, but just interested people and a lot of state legislators.

who were legislating on what's going on with AI. And I was like, one of the things I said was, guys, AI is just a new tool. If you look back, go back to the Beatles. They got...

They got slagged when they were multi using multi-track recording. They had a four-track recorder and they were using a string quartet and bouncing, do a pass, bounce it down, bounce it down, bounce it down. You know, they were using four people to do what they normally would have had a huge orchestra to do. And they did have orchestras, but this is one example. So they got slagged in the sixties for taking jobs away from musicians, even though they didn't. In the seventies, Queen...

on the back of every Queen album, if you have old Queen vinyl albums, it says in bold letters, no synthesizers were made in the making of this, used in the making of this album until the game, like their fifth or sixth album, and it was all synthesizers, you know. Then you go to Pro Tools, know, and it got slagged. Ricky Martin had the first number one with Livin' La Vida Loca. Then AutoTune, now there's AI. It's just, it is just a new tool.

Brian Funk (01:07:20.097)

Mm.

Kevin Griffin (01:07:39.283)

that can be really powerful and make you more productive as a producer. And we can talk a little about how I am using Zuno, even though I don't like it, but it helps me with my workflow. I just think it's a new tool, but we've got to, it's a new tool that we have to advocate as songwriters. And I think we'll look back in three or five years and say, yeah, AI, I use AI in my workflow. I'm kicking ass as a producer or a songwriter.

but it wasn't in the of the world. And hopefully we look back at that time and say, we got protected as creators in this new world and compensated.

Brian Funk (01:08:19.66)

Hmm. Yeah, that would be a first, right? That'd be a nice change of pace.

Kevin Griffin (01:08:22.718)

Yeah, can tell you right now the thing that nobody is really talking about is how AI is really being used daily by music professionals in Nashville, in New York, everywhere. And it is a part of Suno that they don't even care about.

The main revenue source for Suno is doing our verbal prompts, mean written prompts, write me a song about my cat, you know, and you could do that on Soundbreak, but the thing that the music industry is using it for is the cover or remix function. Are you familiar with that?

Brian Funk (01:09:07.42)

I've not used that, no.

Kevin Griffin (01:09:09.164)

Yeah, so on Suno, they have a function, it's called cover or remix. And that, what Nashville is using it for, and we're about to introduce that in about three weeks on sound break, is you take, I'm in a songwriting session, at the end of the songwriting session,

you do a voice memo on your phone, you know, vocal acoustic, then you can upload that into sound and to Suno and say modern, modern country song, dry vocals, stomp clap or whatever you want it to be, you know, indie rock, swampy blues rock. And you can hit render and just like that, you get an incredibly compelling produced version of the song that was

just a vocal and an acoustic guitar. And then you bounce those stems out, you usually get seven to eight stems and you pop them into Ableton or whatever your logic for me is Pro Tools. Then you say, well that's a rad bass part, that's a cool drum part. Let's recut the vocal with a human, the person that I wrote this with, maybe it's me. And then you do that and then you send it into the label, the label goes, awesome, they just want a great demo.

happening in Nashville and that's the reason why most professional songwriters you know have the pro subscription to Suno. That is a feature that we're bringing into Soundbreak but quite honestly isn't the money generating part of either platform. But it is a really compelling thing. That's what

That's so, and for me, like I'm a producer. I produce stuff, I produce quite a few albums. I produce a lot of singles, just doing a whole album for me. I'm so slow, but there's a, I don't come from the generation of, I'm not one of those super fast.

Kevin Griffin (01:11:10.997)

producers on their laptop, that I work with a lot of younger producers who are so damn fast. we're writing this, say it's me, you, and a guy who's on laptop, you know, we're writing the song, we're doing the top line and the lyrics, meanwhile he's cutting bass, programming drums, and by the time we leave that session at three o'clock, the demo's done.

You cut that vocal, you drive your three blocks from the studio or his house or her house, and you get a demo, you're like, holy shit, that's amazing. There's that skill set. I don't have it. So, and most people don't. where the AI world is happening is you write a song for real with humans, then you upload it and you get a fully produced demo that gives you really great pieces that you can use for a demo and you can be

lot more productive and knock out a lot more demos in a shorter period of time. That's what some of the biggest producers in the business are using it for.

Brian Funk (01:12:15.564)

Well, that allows you to put the clothes on the song and see how it plays.

Kevin Griffin (01:12:20.445)

Yeah. And also to take a song that you wrote as a country song and like, Hey, make this a R &B song, make this Americana roots, know, make this an EDM song. It's crazy. So suddenly if you have a great idea, you could, you can suddenly have five different pitches in an hour.

That's how AI can really help you and that's what we're incorporating into Soundbreak. But just in full transparency, that's kind of with the lay of the land out there. But again, that makes up like one or 2 % of the revenue for Suno. But to me as a producer, I find that super compelling.

Brian Funk (01:13:12.716)

It's not a lot different than Logic has the drummer. It's got the bass player and the keyboard player. Ableton Live now has MIDI generators, which will create things. And some of them that are more like third party are really advanced in that they'll produce beats and bass lines and things like that. They'll recognize chord progressions. So it's not that far off from...

Kevin Griffin (01:13:40.298)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:41.514)

what's being built into the DOS anyway.

Kevin Griffin (01:13:43.871)

And think about it. mean, we've, we're so used to using samples now we're so used to working with splice, which is samples, you know? I mean, there was a time where he was, who was the guy that was doing the drum packs on splice where every song you heard was like, I know those drums. I want to name, I want to say Chromio. Was it, it was Chrome beats or something like that. you know what I'm, you know what?

Brian Funk (01:13:49.004)

It loops, drop them in.

Brian Funk (01:14:08.376)

was Beats That Knock maybe. Beats That Knock de-cap. Yeah, there's a couple of them. Yeah.

Kevin Griffin (01:14:15.648)

You know, we all know, and then there's Arcade, know, Alphard makes Arcade. You know, so, they're just new tools. know, I think what's unique about Soundbreak is that we're doing something that other AI companies aren't doing, and it's a new way for fans to collaborate with artists. And that is super compelling and exciting to me, because I'm always looking for new ways to connect.

Brian Funk (01:14:27.169)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:44.586)

And I'm seeing you guys have, I could download these songs, look at lyrics. It says send to radio and distribute. What would that be?

Kevin Griffin (01:14:53.938)

So you can send to Soundbreak Radio and then the idea is for the artists on the platform to see the songs you've written.

Brian Funk (01:14:58.698)

Okay, I see that, yeah.

Kevin Griffin (01:15:08.456)

You can send links to your friends to upvote your song so it performs better at Soundbreak Radio. So, so I get to eat every artist on Soundbreak gets an email once a week of your top 10 performing songs based on how they're performing at Soundbreak Radio. But what's cool. And I think that's even more exciting than that is that we're the only AI platform in the world where you write a song on our platform and you dig it. You can hit distribute.

and you can distribute to all the DSPs, Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, within our platform. There's no other platform that has that. So you can be a fan of whatever artists on sound break, write a song with your AI, you dig the song.

You can, in 10 minutes, you can upload your song and have a song that you wrote with the AI for insert artists. And you could be an artist on Spotify. You could be streaming music around the world. And that's, that's, that's what I'm talking about. Create a whole new creator class and the, and you as a user.

You get 50 % ownership of the master, the artist gets 25%, and sound break gets 25%. That's what the splits are. So that's crazy.

Brian Funk (01:16:36.044)

Yes, I mean that means you could have people uploading songs they wrote with your AI and that's another little bit of a potential income stream.

Kevin Griffin (01:16:37.236)

You know, I...

Kevin Griffin (01:16:51.06)

Well, what I talk to artists about and think about this, and this is whether you're user or you're an artist, is if you're on sound break.

You've spent a lifetime building a sound, you know, and you're always gonna make music, you know, the traditional way. I know, if anything, I'm gonna lean personally as an artist, I'm leaning more into more organic, you know, and live and playing live than ever before. But you've built a sound, it's not going anywhere, but there's a whole new, there's this new technology that's gonna steal that.

Brian Funk (01:17:20.02)

Yeah, me too.

Kevin Griffin (01:17:26.272)

unless you advocate for yourself while on soundbreak, you can get out of bed, look on your phone, onto your soundbreak dashboard and say, my AI wrote 3,200 songs last week. And I've got this much, and I can see, I made this much money from subscriptions and...

The song that Hello Kitty 932 in New Delhi, India wrote with me last month has got three million streams on her TikTok.

and I'm getting that revenue flow and it all comes through Soundbreak. And at the end of every month, Soundbreak artists get a royalty statement. So the IP that you spend a lifetime building can work for you while you sleep and connect with fans in a way you've never done. then also in three to five years or whatever, you can turn around as an artist and you've got this whole new

Brian Funk (01:18:03.82)

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Griffin (01:18:29.291)

catalog of masters, of AI masters. And right now we look at AI masters, we're like it's AI slop, stop the slop. That distinction is gonna, as we speak, is becoming blurred less and less. it's coming this year, there's already been number ones that were AI songs.

You know, those stories are going to happen more and more, whether they're a hybrid, maybe it was AI lyrics or AI, you know, whatever drums. But those AI catalogs that started on say like Soundbreak are going to become really valuable and they're going to have, it'd be a whole new income source. Again, this whole thing started as me like, okay, I'm a lifetime musician. You know, how can I...

How can we as artists make money and monetize this thing that's coming, whether we like it or not? And this is the best idea that we could come up with.

Brian Funk (01:19:27.468)

I like it a lot better than this just taking everybody's music and no one gets anything. I mean that seems criminal.

Kevin Griffin (01:19:34.878)

I think it is. I think it is. And I think it's BS, but you know, the labels, Warner's done a deal with Suno, Universal's done a deal with UDO. Baby, it's big business. cash money is the bottom line with these companies. You better believe it.

And so we got to get in there and advocate for ourselves. And that's what we're trying to do with Soundbreak. But yeah, to me, to your point, was unconscionable what Suno has done. And if we don't...

if we're not a voice at the table, or at least giving an alternative. My thing is, here's what I think is gonna happen. The futures, you're gonna sign to Warner Records. And I, look, I was signed to Warner and stuff, I had a great relationship with them, but I'm not signed anymore. They're gonna have their own AI platform for their artists and...

you know, and hopefully they're doing it like we're doing it. But there are way, way more independent artists like me now and like you and people who will never be on those labels. There's way, way more and they need a place to be and that's what Soundbreak's about, you know.

Brian Funk (01:21:05.182)

And I hope people that are doing this recognize that ethical decision to go to a place where artists are treated fairly and compensated. And you know, like that's the ultimate way we get to vote really is with our dollar. You know, we do that every day. We get an election every once in a while and most of us feel like we have no impact on it anyway.

Kevin Griffin (01:21:14.102)

You know.

Kevin Griffin (01:21:29.173)

Dude.

Brian Funk (01:21:32.694)

But the dollar, what you buy, where you put your attention, that speaks.

Kevin Griffin (01:21:37.408)

Well, know, you know, when people, when Spotify came out, you know, not to repeat myself, but to repeat myself, you know, people are like, why would you pay to get what you can get for free? Meaning, you know, there was LimeWire and all that stuff. And the success of Spotify, regardless that they're screwing the songwriters, proved that people want stability.

They want to ultimately do the right thing by the artists who were saying, don't use those illegal BitTorrent file sharing platforms. Use Spotify. People want to do the right thing. And as jaded, as cynical as the world can get, do think that given a choice with two comparable options, I'd rather do the right thing that supports the artists I love.

I'm going to do that. And that's what we're banking on. And that's why we built this. And yeah, and we're super excited. And the momentum we've gotten has been really rad. And it's super cool.

Brian Funk (01:22:51.564)

I think it's clever what you guys are doing with Better Than Ezra about having fans create the songs. That's a nice kind of unexpected turn for some of this stuff. You know, something I hadn't thought of, but it's a great alternate way of interacting with your fans and learning about who they are and letting them participate in the music to some degree.

Kevin Griffin (01:23:16.129)

Well, here's the deal. I've been thinking about this. Well, you could say, what was to stop you before from saying, let's just write a song with a fan? Well, then the world of music.

and rights and ownership can be really sticky, really fast and complicated. You know, the cool thing about doing it through Soundbreak is that...

with the user agreement and what we've done, everything is already spelled out. So it's just so easy to do. And that's why I think it's super compelling. And why I think artists, better than us being the first, will do it more and more. And once that happens, then it's just gonna get crazy. I think that platforms like Soundbreak,

can end up being one of the biggest income generators for artists in the future. I think it's that powerful.

Brian Funk (01:24:31.244)

Yeah, people might want...

Kevin Griffin (01:24:33.195)

Which is really important when touring is more and more difficult, when streaming as songwriters, you know, the middle class of songwriters has been eviscerated by streaming, you know, it's not easy. Especially now for younger artists, it was way easier back in the day when I started to have a career and be really happy with it without being the top of the top, know, being Beyonce or Ed Sheeran.

you know.

Brian Funk (01:25:03.884)

Yeah, and people can make a song for their friend or their loved one in the style of the artist they choose. Whereas it can be much more direct that way with what you guys do as opposed to something else where it's sort of known that it's in that style of the artist, but it's not really like official and

then the credibility and the royalties still go to the actual artist that we're trying to. I want better than Ezra to sing, you know, congratulations, you passed your road test or something.

Kevin Griffin (01:25:41.321)

Yeah, I think it.

Kevin Griffin (01:25:48.928)

Yeah, I just, I think it's just exciting and fun, the whole thing. love the people who are writing the songs. They're super excited about them. I'm having fun listening to them and I'm blown away how great some of this, AI still blows me away what it is and how it does it. I still don't know. Look, I got my dog trying to get to me. And they're good songs.

Brian Funk (01:26:13.516)

Hehehe.

Kevin Griffin (01:26:17.737)

I mean, it's been 24 hours or 36 hours since we launched this Better Than Ezra thing on soundbreak. And there's some songs I like, that's rad. That's a fucking hit chorus. I can't wait to see what we eventually decide on and what we do when we record it for real.

Brian Funk (01:26:41.996)

Well, as you said, every time you go in there, you have the potential to change your life. Could be. Could be another example of that.

Kevin Griffin (01:26:46.708)

Yes.

Kevin Griffin (01:26:52.203)

Absolutely.

Brian Funk (01:26:54.717)

Listen, I definitely want to be mindful of your time and you've been really generous to hang out for the afternoon.

Kevin Griffin (01:27:01.981)

Absolutely and I kind of do yeah, my kids are about to get back from school and I got a got a day It's been pleasure Brian yes and we didn't talk about those old records, but maybe that's for round two

Brian Funk (01:27:08.172)

We'll wrap this up. Listen, thank you. Going all the way back to the 90s.

making the soundtrack of our lives.

Brian Funk (01:27:23.744)

Yeah, that'd be wonderful. Yeah. We will check in down the road too with how everything's going with the sound break. And I think you guys are touring again, I saw later this year.

Kevin Griffin (01:27:36.066)

We're doing a lot of shows, lot of festivals this year. Bottle Rock is gonna kind well Jazz Fest and then Bottle Rock and Napa. And then we're gonna be out, we'll do Ocean's Calling in September. Kind of up near you, Ocean City, Maryland. Well, not too far from you. yeah, Better Than Ezra will be out making music.

Brian Funk (01:28:05.216)

Nice. So the site is soundbreak.ai, if people want to check it out.

Kevin Griffin (01:28:09.813)

Yes, soundbreak.ai, you can check it out. can make 20 songs for free. Go on it, write with a different artist, upload it to the radio.

send it to friends to get them to upvote it. It helps you go up the charts to top tracks. And that's how, I mean, I see all the songs, but that's how I really see the latest songs that people are reacting to. And that's how I know how to listen to them and shout them out. And I do that, actually all the artists are doing that, just shouting out their favorite songs for the week.

Brian Funk (01:28:46.484)

And what's the deadline for the Better Than Ezra

Kevin Griffin (01:28:49.395)

May 15th is, we're gonna go out to Friday. Tom and I are gonna go on live on our socials and say, we'll probably do our favorite five, but the number one song we'll record, and it'll be our next single. It'll be our single for the summer.

Brian Funk (01:29:05.642)

Nice. people will be able to participate in that if they want. Totally free and it's fun. Give it a shot.

Kevin Griffin (01:29:12.435)

Yeah, do it.

Brian Funk (01:29:15.582)

All right. Well, thank you so much. Really great talking to you. if you ever want to it again, the door is open.

Kevin Griffin (01:29:21.675)

Dude, I would love it and continued success with the podcast. dig it. And when I told my partners who are musicians as well, and you know, in soundbreak, they're like, I love that, you know, super cool. thank you.

Brian Funk (01:29:35.286)

Nice. Well, thank you and thank you everyone for listening.

Kevin Griffin (01:29:39.254)

You got it. Bye, guys.

David and I talked about his experience in music production and developing an authentic, interesting sound. In this episode, you’ll hear Midnight Mystery Club’s new single and learned about its creation.

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Midnight Mystery Club Links - https://linktr.ee/midnightmysteryclub

• "I Only Have Eyes For You" (April 3, 2026) Presave - https://hypeddit.com/midnightmysteryclub/ionlyhaveeyesforyou-1

• MMC YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNF2xW2mMSErV1u-VthISzg

• MMC Bandcamp - https://midnightmysteryclub.bandcamp.com

• MMC Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/midnightmysteryclub/

• Toy Synths Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/toysynths

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.748)

All right, welcome to the show David. Good to see you.

David Paul Newell (00:05.548)

Great to be here, man. Thanks for having me.

Brian Funk (00:07.95)

Yeah, it's good to have you. We've got a little bit of a history between us, a little email action going back and forth, back in the day. So it's cool to...

David Paul Newell (00:14.348)

I 10 plus years now, 11 years, I think, since I first emailed you to tell you that as many of those presets and instruments that you make, I will buy them. it was strong, man. It was really good. So it's cool to see how you've come so far and turned all of the plugins and presets and all of those tutorials to now doing this and all the other things you're doing. It's pretty awesome, man.

Brian Funk (00:44.75)

Thanks. Thanks. Yeah. Thanks for supporting it and giving me the encouragement. It's, mean, as you know, like a lot of times when you put stuff out, you release, you don't know what happens with it or where it goes or where it winds up releasing music. don't get to find out like I was listening to that on the drive home after the breakup and it really helped, you know? So it's always nice to hear that. We kind of release stuff and then just.

David Paul Newell (00:50.025)

Yeah, dude. Now it's awesome.

David Paul Newell (00:58.603)

Right?

David Paul Newell (01:07.103)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:13.996)

literally release it, you let it go and that's everybody's.

David Paul Newell (01:17.16)

Yeah. for sure. I mean, every now and then somebody will be really cool and they'll slide into the DMs or, you know, send us an email and tell them, tell me some story about how they first heard our music or whatever. And like makes my month. It's like the coolest thing ever. Cause you're just, cause you kind of, like you're saying you go on so long, you don't hear necessarily the feedback from anybody. And then somebody reaches out and it just reinvigorates.

Brian Funk (01:25.646)

you

David Paul Newell (01:45.521)

everything that you're doing. You're just like, wow, cool. So this is just not for me alone. There's somebody else out there who gets it, which is pretty cool.

Brian Funk (01:53.324)

Yeah. I find that really helps you, meet new people, expand your own career and options because, this is not a zero sum game. You know, it's not like if I'm going to get lunch, I go to Burger King or McDonald's and I have to pick, right? Like people can listen to all kinds of music and I don't get the competitive thing anymore. Maybe I did when I was little.

you younger, you like kind of get jealous of other people or you like feel like they're winning and you're not. But yeah, I've found just like embracing that and encouraging people. And I just find it also too is just proof that it can be done because sometimes you're, doing this stuff and you maybe you're just down on whatever you're making or it's just crickets as a response and it can, you know.

David Paul Newell (02:22.249)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (02:50.158)

It sucks some of the life out of it. to see other people do it and make cool music, it's like, you can do it. It's possible. So I try to absorb that as a personal victory as much as I can. Like you made something. This is great. It's not impossible.

David Paul Newell (03:03.251)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (03:07.08)

Yeah. No, it's funny, especially if you do it so long. I I think we were just talking a little bit before we started about both of us starting back in 2005 with the M-Box and Pro Tools. And you do it so long, it becomes habit forming. And then you're just putting music out because that's what you do. And then it really takes a while before you start to feel like,

Brian Funk (03:22.444)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (03:35.205)

It's connecting with some people and it's creating some sense of community. Like anything good, hopefully good, that you put your heart and soul into does, you know? Like if you run into people who like the same niche restaurant as you, you've instantly made friends, you know, the second you realize that. There is that kind of communal bond over mutual appreciation of something. And I think to me, that's exactly to your point about not wanting to have the competition, not...

that early on competition you have maybe for me when I was younger, you just you feel inadequate. You're struggling with that. And so you you push through that. But as you continue to go on, you realize, no, the the best part of this is just making something and finding friends who appreciate what you're doing. And then chances are they like hopefully if they like what I'm doing, I'm going to like what it is that they're creating. And then because it's kind of all in that world. So the only competition I might have is

maybe with somebody that I don't like what they're doing. But that's rare. mean, thankfully, like a lot of people who are willing to put stuff out today, go through just the difficulty that it is to actually make music today and keep it up. They're really putting their heart into it. So, you know, that usually turns out good stuff.

Brian Funk (04:36.685)

You

Brian Funk (04:54.007)

Yeah. I think there's maybe some value in the, I don't know, maybe competitive motivation kind of aspect, almost like a Lenin McCartney thing where they're like, like I gotta make it and we gotta get to make something cool. Cause Paul made something cool. But you're still kind of in it together. Like they were too, working. I get that. You know, my friends make a song like, I want to make something too now.

David Paul Newell (05:12.869)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (05:21.965)

I gotta get there and get to work. It's inspiring.

David Paul Newell (05:25.753)

Yeah.

Yeah, I've had that. I've got to work over the years, especially when I was younger. Starting off, I worked with a lot of different artists and then just friends of mine that I made music with and we just did it together. And there's always different dynamics, but the guy who couldn't be with us today, that guy right there, the other half of MMC is Levar. And I think with him and I, have a really fun dynamic, which is when we're...

when we're making music and we're working on stuff, it's kind of a competition, but it's kind of not. The competition is really just, what can I do to impress him? And that becomes the threshold because he kind of, I wouldn't say he's hard to please or it's a challenge, but I definitely know that when he is excited about something, then I'm onto something. And it kind of pushes me to further pass maybe where I would have gone on my own or.

Brian Funk (06:07.723)

Yeah, right.

David Paul Newell (06:26.147)

maybe what I would have settled with if I know if I play it for him or if I show it to him and he's not enthusiastically stoked about it then I know I've got work to do still so in my mind whenever I'm working on stuff I'm always thinking I can't wait to show it to him because then that that's the test that's gonna find out whether or not this is something good or not so

Brian Funk (06:48.831)

It's important to have that, to get that kind of feedback. And we're talking about, just so people know the acronym, MMC, Midnight Mystery Club. So that's your group, your partnership. And yeah, to work with someone that you know, you appreciate their taste, you like their taste, you respect it. And then when something happens that they are liking, it is nice to get that. Cause sometimes when you're alone doing it,

David Paul Newell (06:50.764)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (06:58.326)

Right.

Brian Funk (07:17.451)

You get too much in your head. You start thinking too much. And I start often with ideas that I'm really having a lot of fun with. then if I just think enough, I find myself questioning it, you know, feeling insecure about it. And it's nice. I play in a three-piece band, so I got two guys with me regularly that will kind of let me know like, no, no, no, keep doing that. Or let's try something else. And just that little bit of...

David Paul Newell (07:20.887)

yeah.

Brian Funk (07:47.287)

confirmation, it goes a long way.

David Paul Newell (07:48.979)

Yeah. You need it. think for me, as we talked about kind of early on, starting off with like Pro Tools and stuff, I made an album first thing I ever recorded as soon as I got the inbox. So I sat down and I just was like, I'm going to record an album, not knowing anything really about what I'm doing. And it was awful. And it was a great learning lesson, though, because I thought at the time I really knew what I wanted to do or knew how to record or make good music.

And I didn't make it for something that I would like. made it as something I thought other people would like. And it wasn't even done for probably two months and I couldn't listen to it. I just couldn't stand it. And you start to realize that there's this weird thing that happens in your mind when you're solely working on something without anybody else to bounce ideas off of. And you're so close to it. It's like you kind of lose the sense of taste.

a little bit, you're too close to it. It's like trying to paint a painting and only being like two inches from the canvas. You really need somebody else that's like 10 feet away to help you gauge what you're doing. so often I think I would start with a good idea as a song. But then after a couple of days, the initial excitement I had over that had kind of weaned. And so then it was, well, now I've got to generate something new in this song to keep that going.

And then before you know it, I've just whittled the song down until it was unrecognizable in the recording and then made something that I didn't know what it was. So it took a while to learn those lessons. for me, at least, I feel like I absolutely need quality control. need somebody else involved in the process, even if it's just to be a set of ears that I trust because I trust their taste and I trust their judgment. I need that or else I'm my own enemy sometimes.

Brian Funk (09:32.653)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (09:46.123)

Hmm. Yeah, those early days when I first got, I got Pro Tools and an M-Box 2 in 2005 as well. I think I had Pro Tools 6 and it was just updating to 7 at the time. I did have a little bit of experience with four track cassettes and they even had like a 16 track ADAT set up for a little while. That was pretty fun.

David Paul Newell (09:55.39)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (09:59.678)

you

David Paul Newell (10:09.607)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (10:11.916)

But once that came out, once I got my hands on that, I mean, it just blew the doors wide open. was infinite tracks now and all these effects, even before I was getting plugins and knew to get plugins. What came with it was way more than I had gear. I had a reverb, a rack mount reverb and a rack mount compressor that I really barely knew how to use. But then all of sudden, now I can put all of that on every track instead of just, you know, as an aux send or something.

David Paul Newell (10:23.58)

Right.

David Paul Newell (10:41.627)

Right? It's dangerous.

Brian Funk (10:42.988)

and yeah, just you think you need all this stuff. You need all these extra tracks and then you finally get it and you put all this stuff in a song and you're like, it's chaos. It's, it's out of control. There's just so much going on. don't even know what I'm listening to anymore. But it's part of that is it's a great analogy you made. Like it's like painting when you're like right here, right up to the canvas, you know, two inches.

David Paul Newell (10:55.825)

Right.

David Paul Newell (11:00.966)

Right.

Brian Funk (11:11.21)

And every once in a while you have to go back and like stretch your arm out and get the full view of the painting. But that's a hard thing to do because we have to keep switching between those modes, the kind of aerial view and then the right down on the ground with the microscope.

David Paul Newell (11:17.638)

Right.

David Paul Newell (11:29.052)

Yeah, for sure. Sometimes I just can't do it. mean, sometimes it's like you can do little tricks, you know, of course, like take a few days or a few weeks away from something and come back to it, which is helpful. But, you know, even now when I'm when I'm mixing stuff, I still have to have other people involved in the process because, know, you get really in the weeds tweaking something and then you forget how loud your eye hats are. And it's like they don't even sound loud anymore because your brain had just adjusted.

to the level that they're at. you know, even when I mix, I have a wonderful mastering engineer, Mike Neku, who's in Australia. And I send him mixes as I'm working on them, because of course he's going to have to master them, but he can kind of provide some feedback on where things are setting. And then it helps me kind of know when I've finalized the mix or not. and I, without that, I really get myself into some trouble. So, or it just takes me twice as long. So.

Brian Funk (11:59.213)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (12:26.764)

Hmm.

How long did you stick around in Pro Tools? Do you still use it?

David Paul Newell (12:32.857)

You know, it's a good question. I went through the hybrid phase where I would kind of record in Pro Tools, bounce things into Ableton around 2010 through maybe 2012, somewhere around there. But I would say 2010 was probably the year where things shifted for me. So I grew up, like you mentioned, I was playing guitar. That was kind of like my first instrument. And then in...

Every year I got I got a guitar when I was 12 and then the next year I picked up piano And then I think bass after that and then drums. So I just kind of started adding instruments. I think I got a saxophone somewhere around there too Not great at any of them, but just playing enough to get by just to make noise and then but Pretty much the music I understood how to make was in a band where we're like a four piece

alt-rock kind of band and That's I think when you when you learn how to play guitar That's obviously what you learn you learn rock songs generally, right? if you're gonna learn most guitar at least in the United States and I actually it probably made me more of a fan of rock and roll because I don't know if I was listening to a lot of rock and roll before I got a guitar and then But as I would progressing guitar, I really wasn't listening to a lot of this stuff that

that I was learning how to play or that people would say our band sounded like, which was, I don't know, was probably bands like Coldplay and Snow Patrol when we were young and just getting started. And those were like the popular bands and, you know, not to knock the bands, but that wasn't what I was going for. I was listening to like a lot of stuff from Europe, like more electronic stuff like Neon Indian and Hot Chip and

Who else was there? I Daft Punk, course, Air, a lot of that stuff. And I didn't know the first thing about how to make that music. Like, I knew how to record and make music as a four-part band, but I didn't know what in the world a sequencer was. I didn't know anything about programming. I didn't understand that world at all. So I kind of hit my head against the wall for about five years from the time I got that inbox till maybe 2010.

David Paul Newell (14:56.63)

We eventually went into a studio with the band. tried to record an album and I hated it. Couldn't stand the way it sounded. And people listened to it. I mean, they were nice. People were gentle, but what they were comparing it to was it was not anything I wanted to sound like. So it just made me realize that what I'm trying to do and what the actual product is that I'm making are two entirely different things. And, you know, I grew up in California, kind of all over the Central Valley and the foothills and

the Central Coast, but there wasn't really anybody making electronic music of any form that I knew. So I didn't have any friends that could kind of clue me into what was going on. And it wasn't until 2010 when I just finally had it and I was like, I hated all the music I was making with a band. The band was great, great guys, but the music we were making, just wasn't it. And then I found Ableton and it was really at that point that I...

I downloaded Ableton, I think I got like the 30 day free trial. And it was mind blowing how quickly I could make stuff that I had, I think my mom's laptop and I downloaded it onto her laptop so I could get a second free month out of it and then just transformed, just transported all the tracks over there so I could finish it. I recorded like five or six songs in two months. And the quality that I got within that time period,

compared to, think we spent two years trying to record an album with a band that we never released before that. And I felt like I accomplished more in two months with Ableton than the previous two years. So everything at that point changed. And I still was a little slow to move away from Pro Tools. Still like the freedom of recording in Pro Tools, but maybe just for a couple more years before I just ditched it and went Ableton altogether.

Brian Funk (16:48.211)

Yeah, that's cool. Very similar to my story in a lot of ways. I I didn't, I was a guitar player. still play guitar and play in a band, but yeah, that's how I was into it. I didn't know what MIDI was. didn't understand any of that. Pro Tools had some MIDI in it and I'd figured out how to get some synthesizer sounds in there with whatever they had. But it was so foreign to me.

David Paul Newell (16:52.68)

Really?

Brian Funk (17:15.371)

Probably not until a little bit after. I did leave Pro Tools probably like 2007 or eight and started using Digital Performer actually by Motu. And then it was Logic for a little while. then I was rewiring Logic into Ableton or Ableton into Logic, right? And that allows you to basically work in...

David Paul Newell (17:24.295)

Okay.

Mmm.

David Paul Newell (17:36.103)

Alright.

Brian Funk (17:41.438)

side of Ableton Live, but you can have a track in Logic that's receiving the audio. And I was doing that for a while until I started to realize like, why am I still opening Logic? Cause I'm doing everything over here inside of Ableton Live. But it was kind of just like a moment that changed everything for me. I was recording vocals and I had a MIDI keyboard, like some audio thing. I didn't even understand it, but I knew I could.

David Paul Newell (17:45.821)

Right?

Brian Funk (18:09.163)

press keys and hear notes. But I mapped the knob to like a delay and maybe like a reverb on a vocal track. And while I was recording, I was turning the knobs and I was like, my God, this is cool. Like this is not drawing automation afterwards. I'm now like reacting to the effects. Kind of like when you play guitar through pedals, you react, you play differently if you have a delay on or something or distortion and all the other effects up until that point were

David Paul Newell (18:25.382)

Right.

Brian Funk (18:39.599)

Afterthoughts you would record and then you'd apply an effect and maybe you'd automate it But to be able to do it in real time. I was just like this is cool. This is some Now the studio is an instrument. I'm playing the studio like an instrument and that got really exciting and yeah, I mean that was then I wanted to learn all about how's this MIDI work and You know figure that all out

David Paul Newell (19:03.643)

Yeah.

Yeah, for me, think it was with Ableton, was just the immediate grid view and the ability to just immediately jump into creating beats and percussion and all of that stuff very easily, whether it be through MIDI and just like a drum rack or recording and just dropping in samples. The workflow was so quick, so easy, and just made so much sense that I was just like, I can't think of any other way I'd want to do this.

So I was a huge proponent of Ableton there. And then as the software advanced, because I forget what version of that would have been in Ableton back in 2010. of course, it seemed to just advance with every new version of it. You got amazing new tools into it, where it just, from a creation standpoint, just coming up with ideas that became so cool. And I still don't use tons of

features that it can do. But I'm with you. Yeah, the ability to just automate on the fly is pretty cool. But for me, was just being able to compose and lock things in very quickly, even if it was a demo or just a concept, where it just felt so much more time consuming to do that in Pro Tools. And in Ableton, it was just like lightning fast.

It just made a lot of a lot of the things where I felt like it took a long time to get what was in my head recorded so that I could listen to it and see if I like it. Using Pro Tools in Ableton, I could do it in just an hour or two and then find out, do I even like what I'm working on or not? And that was just like, that was great because then it just allowed me to just continue to ride that wave of being excited over an idea and continue to come up with other stuff. Even if I ended up trashing it just

David Paul Newell (21:05.002)

It felt like I could really find out whether or not what I was working on was something that I wanted to hear come to life or not. Where with Pro Tools, it just always was a struggle a little bit to really flesh out ideas. So yeah, so I still probably craft most of our stuff. Maybe it starts on guitar or maybe sometimes it just starts on keyboards, but almost as quickly as I come up with the idea, I'm moving it into Ableton.

to just copy and paste chunks, work on structure and see how things fall. And then I'll come up with a chord progression and drums and I'll actually just play back in Ableton while I write lyrics. Because it's faster and easier for me to focus on lyrics than it is to play my guitar and come up with lyrics because my hands are free. I can just start writing down ideas based off of what I'm hearing and speed it up or slow it down as needed. So it's fantastic, totally different process.

Brian Funk (21:54.889)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (22:04.362)

Yeah, that's cool. I always felt like I was making music in spite of Pro Tools, like against it. But I think in those days, a lot of the DAWs were really just trying to emulate a studio in a computer with the linear timeline, which is like your tape basically. And all the mixing stuff was very like you would see on a console. So you'd have all the routing of creating bus channels and auxes and things.

David Paul Newell (22:10.295)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (22:19.297)

Right.

Brian Funk (22:34.878)

When I started using live, it was like, no, this is more like for creation, songwriting, not just being an engineer in a studio. So that appealed to me a lot because I wasn't ever really looking to become an engineer. I wanted to just make songs. And yeah, like you said, that's a great point too is inside of live, you can kind of just keep it going and looping and come up with your ideas. Like it's a great way to do vocals hands-free so you can have your guitar playing for you.

David Paul Newell (22:41.366)

Right.

David Paul Newell (23:01.526)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (23:04.138)

I find myself doing that a lot actually, just blabbering and then finding lines. Oh, that was cool. It sounded like I said that. You know, write that down and build that way. I felt it was much more like for songwriters than engineers.

David Paul Newell (23:08.01)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (23:14.006)

Yeah. yeah.

David Paul Newell (23:21.664)

Yeah, there's a lot of parts of the process I still struggle with and you're always looking for ways to kind of keep the process feeling fresh. So I think that Ableton does a, it just provides a good platform for me to be able to dive into it and, and still feel like I'm not, I'm not being held in by any ideas, but you're at least for me, I always feel like I'm trying to come up with new ways of the process. Cause you don't ever want, I don't ever want to feel like I get stuck in a rut where I'm like,

relying on a method of writing songs or relying on the same process, because even that can make what I'm coming up with feel stale. So I try to switch it up on myself. And I feel like Ableton is a great tool that's allowed me to do that with, even now with bringing in splice integration, where you can really, I can now just start playing around with samples if I wanted to earlier in the process.

And a lot of times, you know, I do, we do play with samples a lot. have, I don't know how many samples thousands, but I seldom ever end up using them, but I like them for like ideas, whether it just be a really unique rhythm that was played. Maybe it was in a minor key or whatever, but I'll drop that in and that will provide some sort of basis of what then I end up either programming or playing in order to take its place. And, and that part of the process is a little new. I've had.

And some of our more recent work, that's something that's been really fun to play around with is just on the fly, just bringing in little samples that trigger some new fresh idea. And it's like, cool, I've never made a song like this before. So allow that to be the start of the process. And it's kind of fun.

Brian Funk (25:07.274)

That's a cool way to work where you get something to work, you know build upon that's how I started actually You know before I had the computer even when I had like the 8 at setup I Couldn't play to a metronome. I never practiced on those so I just couldn't do that But I had this Casio keyboard, you know, it's like hundred dollar thing with like a hundred presets and beats in it and I made a pack out of it. Actually it's out there somewhere. It's free

David Paul Newell (25:28.807)

Nice.

David Paul Newell (25:33.309)

rep.

Brian Funk (25:37.013)

pack of drum sounds and stuff. But it's, I would just put on like one of the beats that kind of worked with whatever I was doing. And I'd record that into my, you know, eight tracks or whatever. And then I'd play guitar over it. And then I find I had something I can play off of now. And a lot of times those drums wouldn't make it, but occasionally they'd find their way into the song. I'd like, you know, it's kind of cool. It's like really kind of a dorky sounding beat, but

David Paul Newell (25:55.527)

right.

Brian Funk (26:05.77)

fit the song or you just get used to it in the song and it started expanding my way of working. So I think that's a great way to use them. You you can of course use them. There's nothing wrong with that. You know, and your music too, but as sort of placeholders and things like that, just to get you going and moving forward. I believe so much in the momentum.

when you're making music, gotta just keep some sort of momentum going. Because once you slow down, then your mind starts working. And you start thinking too hard.

David Paul Newell (26:32.375)

for sure.

David Paul Newell (26:38.565)

Right.

Yeah, for sure. No, I'm with you, man. That's, it's still something. I mean, thankfully it's been, I don't know, it's been a while since I've felt like I've hit a wall on stuff, but I don't know. I think if it's good, it just encourages me to keep making it. And then of course, if I run into technical difficulties, then hopefully the song doesn't suffer because of it. But sometimes that can slow things down, right? But yeah.

Brian Funk (27:06.546)

Yeah, you gotta sort of accept a little bit of technical difficulty, I guess. The more you complicate things, the more points of failure, I'm sure you know this feeling. You start really learning how all this stuff works. You learn your gear and everything. And then maybe you start working on a track with somebody and it's not working. It's not working. You can't figure it out. And half the time it's just because you forgot to plug something in.

their audio cable's not in. It's like the most simple thing, but because there's so many other places to look. It's an important thing. I find it too, actually a lot doing this podcast where a lot of people I speak to got nice mics and their headphones and it's great because it makes for good audio. But we very often are like, hold on, I'm not getting sound. I don't know why. But sometimes you speak like in just like a Zoom meeting with anybody.

David Paul Newell (27:58.319)

you

Brian Funk (28:03.985)

in the world that has no idea about this stuff. They just open their laptop and they're in. Sure, they don't have maybe that quality, but they're getting to work and there's something to be said about that too, the simplicity.

David Paul Newell (28:17.075)

there was a period there, I think, you know, for a few years where I was trying to make everything on a PC that won't be mentioned, but the amount of latency that I fought with constantly that seemed to just constantly change. So it was this kind of mirage moving latency issue that would become a nemesis and eventually spurred me away from the PC world. But thankfully, but yeah, that was.

Those were some issues, man. Hopefully, but you live, learn. But yeah, think hopefully it's in some recycling bin somewhere today.

Brian Funk (28:51.239)

Yeah, that's true.

Brian Funk (28:57.321)

Yeah. Well, you've got some proof that this is not possible. You've got a new single coming up. You guys put something together. You want to tell us a little bit about that?

David Paul Newell (29:08.385)

We do. Yeah, super pumped about it. got, this is going to be a pretty exciting year. Our calendar's like really full of releases. So this is the first release this year. It's a cover, which we have not had a lot of experience with covers. This is our second cover we've ever done. Never really set out to do a lot of covers, but actually I had this idea, oddly in a dream and woke up and I was like, why not?

But a lot of people remember the version by the Flamingos. It's the songs called I Only Have Eyes For Mew. It was really set famous by the Flamingos as like kind of romantic 1950s doo-wop kind of song. It's great. I mean, I've always loved. It's a great song. It was actually written in the 20s. So the Flamingos was the cover. So the original version was like in the late 20s. And it's kind of what you would expect, like very like jazz.

Brian Funk (29:49.585)

That's a beautiful song. Great production too, was it?

I didn't know that.

David Paul Newell (30:04.012)

kind of big band inspired 1920s kind of stuff. And there's been a few people that have all done their version of it. think the Flamingos version is amazing. But yeah, I wanted to take that and as I always just love the feel of that song, I just wanted to take that and bring it into our world a little bit. And so I just went to it with absolutely no preconceived idea of what it would be.

But it fell together really quick. was one of those songs where you just start working on it and the whole idea was there in a day. And it was just, was from there, it was just, you know, working out the kinks, but, singing all the harmonies, which took a long time. but all the, all the, the, the building blocks of it was all completed pretty much in 24 hours. And yeah, just super excited about it. So it's just going to be released as a single on the 3rd of April and

Then we're going to be following that up. have about five more singles to come out and then an album that we have slated for July 10th. And then we also have something else that we're working on for perhaps in the fall where we've been working with a lot of some of our famous, some of our favorite DJs and producers that have contributed some remixes of our stuff that we plan on putting together a remix release.

Hopefully have that out before the end of the year. So super excited about that too, because got some really cool folks working with on that, which is going to be cool.

Brian Funk (31:38.921)

And there's a good way to work with a community, right? To build connections, doing remixes for each other, helps get the word out on not just your track, but the artist as well. People might wanna check them out after hearing it, if they know them from you.

David Paul Newell (31:42.678)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (31:53.791)

Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. I feel like I never tried to ask for remixes. We've worked with a couple of people over the years who've just been friends. A great guy I know, his name's Stan, but he goes by Pioneer Ball. He's in Russia actually. He was the guitarist in a really awesome band that was around a while back, but totally 80s throwback called Tesla Boy from Russia. And so...

Somehow back in the day I got connected with them and I helped them set up a little bit of a tour and they came to California and I got to hang out with them and get to know Stan pretty well even though there's a bit of a language barrier of course. But wonderful guys and super talented amazing musicians and then we just stayed in touch. And when we released our first album Reason or Rhyme back in 2017 he contributed a remix to it just was just like hey man I'd love to do this and I was like

blown away by it. So when we were looking at having the releases we had on schedule for this year, I had reached out to him and he was nice enough to jump on board again. And for whatever reason, I just felt like, well, let me see who else I could contact. And I reached out to probably 20 or 30 folks that I just love what it is that they do. they're just people that I would never expect to want to partner with on anything, but I just was a fan of theirs.

And I was really surprised and thankful how many people were jumped on board and with no like pay pro crow or no desire to really do anything other than want to help support us, which is just awesome that there's that kind of still, maybe perhaps more than ever before that kind of like communal kind of aspect to making music. So.

I'm blown away by the people that we got on board for this and some of them. I mean I've been fans of some of these people for 20 years and to be I actually have them Remixing and working with our stuff is just like a dream. So I'm really excited about all that. It's gonna be hopefully be pretty cool.

Brian Funk (34:09.213)

Yeah, that's great. And all you gotta do is ask, right? Just... Yeah.

David Paul Newell (34:12.241)

Yeah, all you got to do is ask. It's amazing sometimes the doors that open. So yeah, for sure.

Brian Funk (34:17.885)

Yeah, it is true. Well, we can play this track, right? I only have eyes for you. The Midnight Mystery Club edition. It's, I mean, this original, well, I guess it's not the original, the Flamingos. I mean, there's a song that really has some vibe to it. You know, all that reverb and space and shabup shabup, you know, all that, those cool background vocals. And I think it's cool how you guys approached it. It's a, it's a different.

David Paul Newell (34:22.758)

Sure, yeah.

David Paul Newell (34:30.288)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (34:38.918)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (34:47.825)

It's a different song almost, you know, but, it still has some of that kind of mystery and, know, kind of a, like hazy feeling that the original has or the flamingos have. So yeah, I'll put this on and, we'll give it a listen and then, we can talk more about how you guys made this happen. All right, here goes.

David Paul Newell (34:59.536)

Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully.

David Paul Newell (35:10.716)

Alright.

Brian Funk (35:13.545)

My love must be a kind of blind love

can't see anyone but you

Brian Funk (37:10.12)

you

Brian Funk (38:04.648)

Yeah, nice.

David Paul Newell (38:07.512)

Thanks, man. Yeah, I think as I was listening to it, I think there's probably a DX7 keyboard in there that's from one of your patches, by the way. think, yeah, I think I know that there's a few that are layered, like the same kind of keyboard sound, that kind of famous 80s electric piano. Yeah. And I know that there's, yeah, it's a great sound. I find, I don't know.

Brian Funk (38:18.024)

yeah?

Brian Funk (38:26.514)

Yeah, that electric piano. It's a great sound.

David Paul Newell (38:35.114)

I know because there was a lot of different models of that keyboard that there is some differences in that particular sound because I think the original DX7 is just a little simplified and then perhaps some of the ones that came later just had a little larger sound to them. Anyways, so there's several, at least two, I think tracks of the same type of keyboard from different patches in there that are kind of on that chord progression in there. So yeah, so thanks.

Brian Funk (39:04.178)

Yeah, my DX7 doesn't work anymore. I think the battery needs to be replaced. They're batteries. Like how annoying is that? But I think you've got to solder it in. I don't even know. I've never tried to figure it out. I might've Googled it once, but I do have this, it's like the Korg Volca version. And I have it set to that piano and I almost never change it off of that preset.

David Paul Newell (39:16.071)

wow. yeah.

David Paul Newell (39:24.876)

Yeah, yeah.

David Paul Newell (39:31.319)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:32.122)

It's just like kind of there just for that point. Cause it is, it's such a great sound. It's everywhere in the eighties. you want to kind of call that feeling to mind a little bit. It's kind of mysterious too, I think fits nicely in this track.

David Paul Newell (39:39.229)

man, all over the place.

David Paul Newell (39:48.044)

Thanks, yeah. mean, there was a... It is mysterious. I love that it just really cuts through. So a lot of times, because we tend to do a lot with synths, of course. And I think there's at least six to seven layers of synths going on in that song. So adding keys on top of it, sometimes you're just really limited in the spectrum of what you can do to have it still cut through and still stand out if you want it to stand out.

Brian Funk (40:09.864)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (40:14.102)

And that key sound to me is, that's one of the great things about it is you can have a lot going on and still hear those just as clear as can be. And they sound like they're much louder in the track than they actually are on the channel, so.

Brian Funk (40:27.964)

They have almost a metallic character to them that definitely kind of bites through a little bit. Just on that attack, you know.

David Paul Newell (40:30.544)

yeah.

David Paul Newell (40:36.199)

Yeah. Yeah, steel bells kind of sound to him a little bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (40:41.318)

Yeah. Glassy steel type. Yeah. FM synthesis for you, guess. Great for that sort of stuff. All those high frequencies that cut through. so yeah, I've wanted to ask you a little bit about some of the synths going on. lot of really cool sounds. The bass is awesome. Really cool groove you got with the bass and the drums.

David Paul Newell (40:47.453)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (40:52.275)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (41:02.141)

Thanks, man. Yeah, I assist 808 on the drums. And I mean, everything that we do with drums is pretty layered. So we go for a real, I think some of our stuff, hopefully the stuff that's coming out this summer, you'll hear it even more. But we've gravitated over time to a real combination of like a natural live drum with supplemented with like 808s or 909s or whatever we wanted to use. And I don't know how many different samples, but we've got a lot.

But I really love that combination of kind of a synthetic sound with the natural punchiness. so pretty much every hit from snare and kick is always like a layered combination of two, sometimes three, but usually just about two. And so the 808, of course, is providing that punch and the depth. And then there's just like a natural live kick that gets that more punchy, higher tone characteristic on the track. And then of course provides that top end, because you really pay a lot.

I know, I try to pay more attention to how the kick sounds on like an iPhone because a lot of big kicks, you just, don't even hear them. So you're really looking for that mid and upper register tone to come through. And it's super easy for that to get lost if you're just using a sample alone and it doesn't have, or it just doesn't have a dynamic to it that feels real and natural. So.

So yeah, so it's usually a combination of that on the drums. And then I forget what the bass was. I know what the plugin was called, which is called Feel It. I think it's, I forget who makes it, but it had just a really great kind of feel it. think, yeah, I think that's what it was called, Feel It. But yeah, so it's just, so essentially that's just the same bass synth on, I just made it two channels and then split them left and right.

Brian Funk (42:42.545)

Feel it? Like, touch it, feel it? Huh. I never heard of that.

David Paul Newell (42:56.947)

So there's a bit of that echoey delay on one by like probably 15 or 20 milliseconds just to get that nice room. And then of course, summed everything below probably 200 Hertz down the middle and then let everything above be really stereo. So yeah, it's probably some version of a Moog. So, cause that's what it sounded like to me. And then on the synth side of it, I know that there's probably the biggest synth in there is a Diva, the Yuhi Diva.

Brian Funk (43:04.039)

Hmm.

David Paul Newell (43:26.999)

And I forget what patch it was, but that's the main synth you probably hear. Then there's a Prophet that's in there that's also fluctuating just to kind of give it some life. There's a BA-1, I think, in there at some point. And then the Opal. Yeah, yeah, the BA-1, the Baby Audio. And then the Opal. What do they call that? By UAD?

Brian Funk (43:44.647)

Is that the Baby Audio one? Yeah, that's a good one.

David Paul Newell (43:56.184)

the Opal Morphing synth. So that's in there at some points too. So yeah, that's mostly it. And then there's just multiple layers. And I forget, I pulled it up today to look at it. But there's, think, seven layers of just synths, about four of those at a time, perhaps, with a little bit of overlap, depending on the parts. And then the keys come in. That's separate. There's like, I think, two or three layers of keys that are mostly the DX7.

But honestly, it's probably one of the lighter tracks. I mean, as far as just how many things we have going on on that one, it just didn't need it. And the basis of the song that was working immediately was all about the drums and the bass. So everything else just became ways to kind of fill in the spectrum. But yeah, the bass was just a cool patch. Yeah, I don't remember who makes it. I think it might be Oberheim, but it might be an Oberheim patch or something, but yeah.

Brian Funk (44:57.165)

That's cool. you know, the more room you leave, I guess, you know, I can really appreciate all the different layers. You can hear everything. If you kept stacking stuff together, then it's like, okay, I don't even know what I'm hearing. I'm hearing just sound, right? It's this one whole brick of sound. But when you, you've, you've kind of kept it within that familiar range where you can really pick different things out and

David Paul Newell (44:58.158)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (45:16.962)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:26.575)

notice them and notice when they come in and out. Cause sometimes you start layering things together. Like we were kind of talking about it earlier actually, just, you just put too much stuff in there. It's nice to let stuff breathe a little bit. I think it's a great strategy with the drums too, because you know, acoustic drums had to be in the world. They had to happen in the actual world. They had to actually produce sound waves and in the air, you know,

David Paul Newell (45:35.979)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (45:54.08)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:55.624)

And there's something that adds to it. It adds like an environment or something along those lines. And additionally, like you said, it'll make it cut through on an iPhone. mean, isn't that your favorite way for people to listen to your music? Like, yeah, I made it sound like, oh, let me check it out. I want to hear your music. And they pull it on their iPhone. You're like, no, you're not hearing it. people, yeah, it's so easy. And you know, it's right there.

David Paul Newell (46:10.476)

You

David Paul Newell (46:15.51)

I

I'm guilty of it too though. I do it way too much.

Brian Funk (46:25.411)

As sad as it might feel sometimes, it's an important consideration. You kind of want it to translate it in as many places as possible because as I've learned, like you're lucky to get anyone to listen to anything ever at all. You know, there's hundreds of thousands of tracks a day or whatever getting uploaded and you know, if anyone will take a second when they can listen to or watch or access anything from the entire

David Paul Newell (46:33.314)

yeah.

David Paul Newell (46:40.257)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (46:52.807)

catalog of human creations in a moment. You know, it is a privilege to get your stuff played anyway at all.

David Paul Newell (46:55.041)

Yeah.

And to your point, mean, a lot of I think, I mean, we live in a time where I feel like even some of the cheapest speakers you buy sound really good. I mean, it is a it can be a little bit of a crutch, for lack of a better word, as in you, you know, that it's going to sound decent on nice speakers. But like, how do you make it sound good and not the best environment? And so that's always

Brian Funk (47:03.376)

Ahem.

Brian Funk (47:08.732)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:12.935)

Cough

Brian Funk (47:21.927)

Mm-hmm.

David Paul Newell (47:26.718)

the challenge is to like, wow, this sounds really good. And then not stop there, go like, yeah, it sounds really good on great equipment. But like, how does it sound on really awful equipment? You know, or just the not the not the best environment. So trying to do our try. That's like, that's always the kind of like, I guess, like, carrot that's always a little out of reach that you're always trying to get, you know, which is just how can I make sure that this checks all the boxes? So

Brian Funk (47:49.926)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (47:55.338)

Wanting to make sure that that works But I would say that the thing with the drums especially with layering drums natural drums has less to do with Although I mean obviously from an audio standpoint It is a lot about creating balanced sound on all in all environments But I think it started more for us just out of a desire that we don't want to be like a DJ group That was never the desire. We don't want to just set up there and spin I mean Levar comes from the world of live drums

I grew up playing in bands. The dream has always been to take these songs on the road. And so when we produce and record, though, Ableton is very friendly towards electronic music. It's always looking for ways to incorporate as much natural, real sound so that if we do take these songs on stage and we start playing them live, they don't feel dramatically different. It still has the same feel. I've always liked bands that have some kind of way of

blurring the line between what's electronic and what's actually, you know, all analog, natural, organic. And yet I still love electronic because I feel like so much of the sample, so much of that sound is just so pure and so big. But with everything that we do, even with the even with some of the soft sense and those kind of things, I'm always looking for ways of how can I drag that into a real world?

How can we drag that into the studio? How can we, for the album that we're going to release in July, it's called Telescope. And the album, recorded parts of it at a studio called Chase Park Transduction, which I mentioned earlier before we started, but that's where this background is. This is inside the control room of Chase Park. And it's a studio in Athens, Georgia. it's where REM recorded all their albums there. Tori and moi, who I'm a huge fan of.

Recorded some of his albums there. So it's a great studio really great people Yeah, it's a great space great equipment and they have this wonderful neve console and We We went in there mostly for drums who recorded all the drums there, but then everything else like all of our sense all Literally all the other instrumentations we sent through all that gear. We sent it all through the neve and then back into

Brian Funk (49:52.165)

Yeah.

got a good energy.

David Paul Newell (50:19.365)

the box so that we had all of that coloring and that kind of thing. So I'm always looking for ways to bring as much natural character as much of that so that when we do get to the point where we're able to bring these things to life, you know, on the on the road, that it's it doesn't feel like it's a completely different band. I've seen, you know, you've I think we've probably all if we've gone to a few concerts, you've all had those experiences where you see a band live.

And you're like, this does not sound anything like, not that it has to sound exactly like it, but it doesn't even sound like the same band. And I had, for a while there, I worked in Live Sound. used to be an audio engineer for a period in my life in Nashville. So we did a lot of shows and you see a lot of bands perform with a lot of help, a lot of live track playback and those kinds of things on stage. I've just always admired people that somehow figured out that way of balancing.

things that you really could only do in the studio, they're really only possible in the studio and bringing that just enough into the live show so that it doesn't feel like a completely different version, but also not relying on those things for the foundation of the song. So that's the goal, that's the bar, I guess we set for ourselves.

Brian Funk (51:37.735)

I'd like to ask you a little bit about that process of taking your tracks and running them through the console. I love doing that kind of stuff. think, you know, like our soft synths and everything are amazing. but they do have a tendency. I don't know exactly how to put it, but they're almost, they don't exist anywhere. Right? Like, where is like an alive.

David Paul Newell (52:02.892)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (52:06.594)

recorded instrument or even like a mic to anything, it just sort of has its place. But I do find sometimes running it out through some gear, processing it a little bit, even through like a pedal or something. I even have a Tascam 8-track with a mixer built into it. just sometimes I just use the channels just to flavor it a little and bring it back in.

David Paul Newell (52:28.839)

yeah.

Brian Funk (52:32.344)

It makes a difference to just have that signal travel through some electronics in the real world and come back or even through an amp or something. Yeah, I just kind of curious how you guys do that. Is it just running it through the channels? anything? What's that process look like?

David Paul Newell (52:50.238)

Yeah, so I mean, thankfully when it comes to that stuff, I don't have to be as hands on. can just kind of point to what I want to use and then they throw it in. But we have thankfully a couple of great guys that we work with. Brian Dane Hansen, who's a wonderful producer and engineer. He he engineered all of our recordings and then his assistant. So great guy that works for Chase Park. His name is Ben Hackett. So they were the ones to really handle that stuff. I know Brian's a big fan of exactly what you're talking about there.

Brian Funk (52:57.595)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (53:19.798)

He would be a really cool guy to have on your show if you ever wanted to dive into a lot of the technical stuff because he's a very creative out of the box guy. He loves to do stuff where he's got a I think it's a mini moat and he sends everything through it like he records his maybe not everything but a lot of stuff I've seen him do. He's got he plays his bass right into it and then uses the filters on it to give tons of color into him.

He's got a Rhodes sends that through it a Melotron sends that through it so it's just simply using the all the hardware they're available to you and all the Essentially everything the filters I guess is probably the only parts that you can affect with it But he uses that a lot and then in the studio. It was mostly just about trying to get some of the gain staging I think we used some Chandler limited Hardware along with the the neve console

But it was really just figuring out nice settings on the on the game and everything to just per track. And then Ben was able to set it all up so that it was just going right out of the box and right back in. Brian was the guy that was really kind of working all the knobs. We had a tendency to really push stuff. So there ended up being a lot more tracks that we didn't use, just stuff that ended up being distorted or funky or.

There's a couple of tracks though where it was it was really cool like where What we did in the studio was way overkill and it was just too much color too much stuff going on maybe hurt the dynamics of the original audio file, but I was able to use that track and blend it in maybe 40 % with the original file and it just was what it needed So there's always kind of fun little work around so there was a lot of that in

in the finished product, especially with like some of the drums. But yeah, it was a fun, super fun process of just playing around with as much of that. I mean, that studio has got some great gear in it, so you could really go crazy in there. And we didn't have all the time, but we set a day aside of just running everything through all the hardware there. And it turned out to be a huge help. And I think what it brought was it just, to me it brought, I always have this discussion with people that are,

Brian Funk (55:30.383)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (55:46.63)

audio files and engineers. But I think at some point, you're technically probably losing information, right? You're probably technically sacrificing 100 % clarity and 100 % if you want to say quality. I think that term, you don't really know what that means. But it just depends on what your definition is of that in audio. But let me put it this way. We talk about vinyl records.

I love the sound of vinyl records. A lot of people love the sound of vinyl records. Prefer it over mp3s or waves or CDs or whatever. And I think to me that's true. Technically it's less quality as far as if you measure quality by the consistency or the accuracy of what was recorded versus what's being played back. But what you're losing somehow with vinyl sounds more natural, sounds more comfortable.

And so it's it's Degraded perhaps but in the way that it is it feels warm people say that you know, it feels more natural It feels easier on the ears less fatiguing all of that and so I've been having this conversation especially as it relates to ai because a lot of people, know, of course now with ai which can make everything sound pristine Anything that you want there is this real push towards

Redefining our definition of what it means to be high quality audio Because if you're like me you listen to like a lot of stuff that was recorded in the 70s in the 80s And you actually like the recordings better even though technically maybe they didn't use The as much of the spectrum as people are today They didn't push the volume threshold as much as people are today yet somehow that sounds better quality even though our definition of that may be different and

I think what AI is going to have a difficult time doing is following what feels good, just as much as if AI could cook a meal, it's not going to necessarily be able to judge what tastes good, because that's so sensory, it's so personal, and it's so independent on each person. So I think that there's this real freedom when it comes to re-examining what our definition of is good quality.

David Paul Newell (58:08.469)

and perhaps going towards just more what feels good to you rather than what checks the boxes or looks on the spectrum like what it should look like or what fluffs, you know, it's this it is or whatever. But just going by pure feel and then feeling free to just go down that rabbit hole, like make things sound really weird. you don't have to hopefully my hope is is that with AI because because our

Quote-unquote perfection as far as audio is concerned. It's gonna be so achievable for so many people It's gonna open up this new lane which is if you want to be really weird and yet creative and make things that just Feel good. You can do that and you're not gonna have as much competition there so So I really love that about playing around with a lot of Analog gear and all of this stuff and and even the stuff we're doing in the box as much as I can trying to bring

a more natural approach to it and not try to chase some mysterious idea of great sound and kind of go, no, like you can actually roll off tons of low end. You can drop everything out of there if it feels good and it just sounds good to me somehow. Perhaps that's a direction that now can set apart what I'm doing more than if I'm trying to chase this idea of having a really ultra dynamic.

ultra loud ultra using up all the frequencies like For instance not the song that we just played because that was recorded before the other stuff that's coming out but In a month or two, we're going to start releasing singles for what's going to be telescope coming out in july And all the songs on telescope all had a I think a massive passive on the master channel that was Doing 24

dB reduction or maybe it was just a low pass, but at about 18k, which is a super old school method, right? I think that they did that because it actually helped vinyl records to not distort or whatever, but that's across the board. We tried the masters without it and then we listened to it with it and it just sounded nicer. And yet there's actually less information. Plenty of people want to use up that information, especially in the last...

Brian Funk (01:00:29.06)

So you're just filtering off the very high frequencies that we barely hear anyway.

David Paul Newell (01:00:32.385)

years. Yeah, just cut them off completely. Yeah, and but for whatever reason, it just made everything sound to me different and more natural. And so we went with it. And it was just one of those decisions where, like, I think previously, I would have been apprehensive to do that, because I know from an audio engineer background, like you want to hold on to everything you can in that range. And there's even this idea that stuff around 40k will

somehow give you an impression that there's more air going on, even though you can't hear it. But just because I think of the fact that we're more interested now in creating some kind of sonic signature that feels identifiable than we are towards chasing the idea of what good sound is, that it allows us the freedom to do stuff like that. And I would hope that we end up doing more of those kind of things in the future, where we just disregard

what's considered to be the norm. And I think back to like Neon Indian, his first album was crazy sounding. It sounds so weird, but it's great. And I mean, there's been plenty of albums like that, like DJ Shadow's Introducing that came out, you know, a long time ago, but that album, he recorded and mixed it in his bedroom and it sounds like it, but it holds up. And I listened to those albums and I go, there's no way that AI is going to be able to make

those kind of unless you tell it make it sound like this i'm sure it probably could but as far as creating what the new the next thing is going to be that utilizes the freedom to make things sound however you want them to i think that that's going to become a thing and it was actually so it's really cool so i'll tell you just a little bit more to back up in case there's people listening that are like he doesn't know what he's talking about i i was having this very same conversation with

A gentleman who is the head of Sony music that I actually got to know him when I was working in Nashville years ago and We had talked on the phone a couple months ago and I got to catch up with him and he's a super nice guy and He was telling me course in Nashville. They're dealing with most mostly country and Christian and gospel and those kind of things but he said when it comes to we were talking about sync deals and he said pretty much everything that they're getting requests from

David Paul Newell (01:02:55.742)

Whether it commercials or whatever, they are almost exclusively getting companies, production companies asking for tracks that sound like they were recorded in your bedroom. Because it's becoming so achievable to have a super polished sound that it sounds generic. And so he was like, we're actually asking some of these huge artists to like deliver the demo instead of the production version to just get that sound. And that's what they want to use for

TV shows and movies or whatever. And so I found that super fascinating, but to me it just kind of encourages me that there's less of a desire or less of a pressure, if you will, to craft that ultra polished sound. And I think that that's freedom for those of us who just want to make something that's actually unique and feels original. I think there's this huge freedom now to be able to do that.

and not have people disregard it because it doesn't sound quote unquote professional, where maybe, you know, 20 years ago when we started making music, we heard that a lot, right? Like, this doesn't sound as professional, it doesn't sound as loud and as dynamic as all the other stuff. Like now it's like, well, if that's suddenly easy, if that's suddenly the middle of the road, then the things that actually sound unique and outside of that become more noticeable. And there's all of a sudden this openness in the listener.

because they're saturated with things that sound polished, to be open to hearing something that maybe sounds different and that triggers in them more interest because, wow, this doesn't sound like everything else, which I think is a really new avenue that we have available. And so I find that trying to utilize as much of these tools as we can to push that within my comfort zone is gonna be where we wanna go and hopefully what we can do.

Brian Funk (01:04:52.184)

Yeah, I agree with you that stuff has gotten really slick and polished and it is a feat of modern technology and a lot of skill as well of engineers and producers that can get it there. But it sometimes is at the cost of interest, interestingness, you know? Like you said, like the bedroom sound, like that

David Paul Newell (01:05:16.08)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:22.788)

That's more endearing than the clinical studio. know, the sterile, perfect sound, I think a lot of times. I feel that's been happening kind of a little bit anyway, even without the AI being able to do it. But cause yeah, like you can really get stuff to sound pretty darn good just by having some of the software that exists today.

David Paul Newell (01:05:28.561)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:05:52.844)

and using some of the samples and built-in stuff. That would have been a lot harder in the past. But it's that kind of thing, like everyone can do that now. It's almost like a Twilight Zone episode or something where everyone's beautiful and that you just want to see someone with messy hair now or somebody that's a little bit different looking just because it's more interesting.

David Paul Newell (01:06:03.769)

Right.

David Paul Newell (01:06:12.431)

Yeah.

Right.

David Paul Newell (01:06:24.675)

Yeah, I-

Brian Funk (01:06:24.708)

It is a cool thing to explore. Yeah, go ahead.

David Paul Newell (01:06:28.579)

I think about it a lot because I think about food a lot and so and I like to cook so But I always and I feel like there's a lot of similarities, of course between food music, but There I kind of think about it and like what you're saying like the whole you know Twilight Zone idea like if they made a machine where you could eat at any restaurant and the machine there's a machine at the restaurant that can turn out The best quality whatever pizza you name it tacos

Brian Funk (01:06:38.692)

Sure.

David Paul Newell (01:06:58.381)

what would consider to be the best in the world are available at every single restaurant by the same machine that can perfectly create out of thin air, whatever food you wanted at the highest quality level. If suddenly that was the case, I think what the the following situation would be would be that people become very hungry for something that's new. Because if suddenly excellent anything is available anywhere,

Though, yeah, they may have interest in that and that would probably still do well. It's not like people are going to take advantage of that. But there is going to be a certain portion or percentage of people that are more willing to seek out something unique and different and perhaps try food that they would have never tried before because it was perhaps not something they would have considered eating, you know, but now they'll eat eel or they'll eat, you know, whatever octopus. What is it? Squid ink.

squid ink pasta or something, you know that they wouldn't have had before because because now it's so saturated with what the middle is or what the middle of road is and so I like that analogy because I think of that in relation to Essentially what AI is doing where it is made the middle of the road even though I'm I don't think it's going to create the best of anything but I think it's going to make the middle of the road very accessible, but

Brian Funk (01:07:58.595)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:08:22.893)

Hopefully the the following effect that comes a little later is that for the audience that perhaps always wanted to be spoon-fed things that were very vanilla has this appetite for things that are truly different and This wasn't my idea, but I did hear somebody else talk about this and I really liked it but they were talking about the trends within the art world like fine art around the ends of the 1800s where as you approach

the, I guess it would have been the 19th century or throughout the 19th century, there was this movement to have all painting be extremely realistic. Things became more and more hyper realistic to where people wanted their portraits painted because it looked just like the real thing. And then of course, the camera is created and people can get their portrait taken and suddenly that's available. And it kind of makes that style of art obsolete to some extent. And yet,

You would think that perhaps a lot of people or the art world would fall off because of the invention of the camera. But in turn, what ended up happening is you have Picasso and you have all these people that are doing really bizarre stuff that perhaps would have never been considered before that, but are suddenly being taken very seriously. And there's a hunger and appetite in people for something that is truly different because now all of a sudden art has this freedom it didn't have before to not be this thing in a box that

that had to look like the real thing, but because that was that box was checked by photography. Now, all of a you know, people that were painting could paint whatever they wanted, and it has nothing to do with reality. There is no need to do that anymore. And so I like that analogy because to me that that really encouraged me as far as what I want to do musically is hopefully I kind of hate the whole like, you know, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus, song structure. I just kind of hate it like.

Sometimes you feel like it works, but other times I just feel like I don't like a lot of songs that sound like that. I like songs that surprise me. They don't, you I know what like the catchy song structures are. I like things that catch me off guard. And so, I feel like that, that has always worked because the audience has, has demanded that that works. And yet I, my hope is, is that at time goes on things like that we can get further away from there becomes less of a pressure.

David Paul Newell (01:10:49.639)

to have to have songs be in this box that they've been in for a long time. And there's this new freedoms to really explore things outside of that. And we're trying to get ahead of that a little bit, I think.

Brian Funk (01:11:03.287)

Yeah, that's cool. think it's interesting. It's an exciting path until you go back to your food thing. Like, yeah, if you could have those like, I don't know, five star Michelin chef at their best meals, that would be fun. But I would still want grandma's meatballs, know, like, you know, mom's lasagna or whatever, you know, it is. Because there's something about that.

David Paul Newell (01:11:08.562)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:11:17.906)

Right.

David Paul Newell (01:11:24.423)

Right?

Brian Funk (01:11:34.308)

There's something about when even just anyone cooks something for you, specifically for you even, know, kind of, yeah, maybe this wouldn't make it here or there in some fancy place, but like it's authentic. It's for you. It's with what you had at hand. It's your ingredients. It's your twists, your, all of that went into it. You know, like they say,

David Paul Newell (01:11:59.292)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:12:04.289)

Made with love or whatever. that's an important ingredient. It's not, there's no channel on your session for it. You know, there's no fader, but it's in there and stuff like that. Cause you could, I'm sure there, I mean, there's tons of emulations of these consoles and whatever, you know, and you could use that and it will sound probably pretty darn good.

David Paul Newell (01:12:14.668)

yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:34.049)

maybe you would even get it closer to what you were hoping it would sound like. Cause some, you know, sometimes you've run stuff through the hardware you have and you've kind of stuck with it. I love, I love using like the cassette machines and running stuff through there and you get what you get, but they have plugins for that and I can tweak it forever.

David Paul Newell (01:12:37.914)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:12:46.65)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:12:53.63)

Well, you're on one of my favorite topics because like I think that making decisions that you force yourself to stick with are an important part of the process.

Brian Funk (01:12:54.305)

Brian Funk (01:13:02.647)

Yeah, certainly. That's crucial. Making music is making decisions. Like you decide what to do and we don't have to. And I think that's where we get stuck a lot. It's one of the modern issues for us producers these days. You can download a new plugin, new samples. can...

David Paul Newell (01:13:04.793)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:24.961)

mean, even gear, you can go on Amazon or Sweetwater and it's all available. It used to be you had to go to the music store and see what they had and deal with it. So that decision was made for you. And you couldn't return it like you can today. You got a piece of gear and it's kind of garbagey, but I've been learning it and I figured it out and all of that.

David Paul Newell (01:13:28.056)

yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:13:41.465)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:13:47.768)

Yeah.

I think there's even from back in the day before all of these things before the software became so readily available I kept talking about which i'm certainly guilty of I have a lot of plugins and all that stuff, right? Yeah But it's it can be There is something really strange and I actually find it kind of beautiful about having limitations that are either self-imposed or imposed by what our situation because

Brian Funk (01:13:59.275)

I'm so happy we have it. It's not a complaint, it is also, it's the problem too.

David Paul Newell (01:14:19.342)

How many great albums? mean, there's so many when I think about it that like the initial debut album by an artist was fantastic. And then they blow up, they become huge. And then their following album, it just doesn't sound nearly as good. And yet you can from an audio standpoint, from like an engineer standpoint, you well, many times you can hear, yeah, you can hear its quality is better, right? The recordings are better, but it's lost that magic.

Brian Funk (01:14:39.456)

Or it sounds better. Like, better. Quotes.

David Paul Newell (01:14:49.308)

And there's so many examples of that where I think, you just, had this free, all sudden this artist has this freedom to pay for all the studio hours they want to, they, they have the freedom to buy whatever equipment that they want to work with, whatever people that they want to work with. And that doesn't usually equal really good music. A lot of times it equals, you know, pointless direction, which I think you hear on a lot of those albums. And yet,

Brian Funk (01:14:49.537)

Mm-hmm.

David Paul Newell (01:15:19.192)

Like, I hate to use them as an example, but I'll beat up on them a little bit because they can take it. they've been wildly successful. But of course, Coldplay, I think the first album by Coldplay is head and shoulders above everything else that they ever did. I think their second album is pretty good. But to me, the albums that I listen to is I haven't listened to probably every album they've done. But for the years that I had followed them, there was this dramatic decrease in what I felt like was heart.

you're kind of describing right which is that made with love characteristic that was existing in that early stuff that was somehow squelched by judogukai okay

Brian Funk (01:16:01.014)

Yeah, she's good. think she just found a new spot to lay down. I gotta make sure I don't move my chair too much. It's on wheels.

David Paul Newell (01:16:04.936)

yeah. That's cute. But yeah, there's something to that, because I really think that, you know, I feel like self-imposed limitations is really important. So like when we're working on stuff like this new album that we did, like there was a lot of decisions that we just forced ourselves to make where it was like, OK, if we're going to use a console emulator plug-in, we're going to decide on one. And that's it. I'm not.

Using all the things that I have available. We're gonna

Brian Funk (01:16:37.095)

A-B-M for A-B-C-D-E-F-M, side by side.

David Paul Newell (01:16:39.856)

Yeah, yeah, yeah and there was a lot of stuff like that just little decisions that we made I mean What is it the album that we did? Well a couple albums ago. We did an LP or an EP called aesthetics and And telescope actually a good portion of telescope, but a lot of aesthetics we used a jv 1080 on everything so my goal was just like I'm gonna use it this I'd say it's a rack mount synth by Yamaha jv 1080

Brian Funk (01:17:04.384)

What is that?

Brian Funk (01:17:08.47)

Okay.

David Paul Newell (01:17:09.183)

They also made the 2080 they're very similar super popular 1980s rack mount synth So I had bought one and I wanted to use it on every track like no matter what and so That became kind of like a fun challenge which the first part of that challenge was is how many presets can I create out of this thing that I like and the cool thing about the JV 1080 which I mean it would be a great one for you to play around with and see if you can make some some plugins off of that, but the

There's for every sound essentially there's four parts of that sound and I don't know how they break it down But there's literally four buttons on the the front of it. So as you scroll through every preset you can turn off or turn on four voices, but I think they're more than just a voice but Essentially every sound is made up of a lot going on. So within every setting there's essentially four settings So going through and finding all those I spent probably a month

Just doing that and saving all of those presets in the 1080. And then of course, as we worked on the album, was, you know, just sending as much stuff, just MIDI out through, I did play a little bit through the keyboard, through the rack mount, but a lot of it was just pre-recorded with the MIDI and then just send it out from Ableton back in just to get the audio from it. And we used it for everything.

One of the title track from the album, Telescope, the main things you hear on the track is all JV 1080. It's a JV 1080 organ and it's a JV 1080, I think they call it jogging synth, but it's this weird little poppy, it's got like an envelope filter on it that makes it sound really cool and trippy, but it created its own rhythm. So it just had this, and that sound birthed the whole rhythm of the song. So I had just sent it through the JV 1080 back in.

Brian Funk (01:18:39.724)

Hmm.

David Paul Newell (01:19:01.915)

listen to it and I was like, this is the rhythm of the song. And then I just kind of, we designed the drums around the, the scent itself to make it work. so that, that thing became the basis of so many cool ideas that came from it. And so I just love that idea of kind of self-imposing just ideas, whether it to use piece of equipment or to just not use certain things. But I think that that's, I mean, the hope is, is that you keep doing this and you get to be better at it and more opportunities open up.

you get access to more gear, get access to more studios, you do all that. But then to remind myself that like, that's also dangerous. Like just because you have access to nicer stuff and more equipment, just because I can go out and buy 10 cents when I could only afford one, that may be one of the worst things I could do for myself because it doesn't necessarily create things that are focused, that are whole, you know, that. And so.

Brian Funk (01:19:50.53)

Hmm.

David Paul Newell (01:19:58.192)

Yeah, so that so i'm a big believer in what you're talking about because I think that in order to Continue to create in order to continue to push boundaries a little bit You kind of have to self-impose a little bit I think great albums were made under those two like Led Zeppelin four, is arguably one of their best albums, right? It's that whole thing. They kind of restricted themselves in some way. They all went and lived in a house together They had to record in this house. It wasn't a studio. So they fought the acoustics of that and

That's what they chose to do is they made their environment the limitation and they had the recording studio in the van on the driveway, right? But they made that decision in order to give what became iconic sound to that album. And so I think like making decisions like that is part of the fun part of the process that if you have the discipline to ride that, even though it may get frustrating and even though you go like, I could do so much more if I just bought this other plug in or if I just, you know,

Brian Funk (01:20:34.347)

Hmm.

David Paul Newell (01:20:55.493)

borrowed this piece of gear from my friend or whatever. But I think sometimes you wouldn't ever come up with the cool things that you did if you didn't put those restrictions on yourself to some degree. yeah, and I also look back on some of my earliest recordings as like some of my most clever things I ever did, which was like, I would never think to do that now, but I only had like two plugins, I could only do so much to come up with something cool. And what I came up with was super out of the box that like I wouldn't

would never occur to me now to do that. But I was just bored and I only could do four things, you know, in Pro Tools. I only had like four plugins. I think one of them was like Cosmonaut or whatever. And so I played around with that all day long and came up with some weird stuff and it was like, that worked for somehow. And I would never think of even using that today. And yet it really birthed a lot of cool ideas. And I look at all the ideas that I've come up with when I've had access to a lot of great equipment and stuff.

And it reminds me of other stuff that I think is better, but it's not necessarily unique and it doesn't feel as much like me. yeah. So don't know. I haven't fully fleshed out that idea, but I love what you're talking about because I just, to me, I'm a big believer in that concept that if you come up with ways of creatively creating boundaries for yourself, you really create a good ground to grow things.

Brian Funk (01:21:59.852)

Hmm.

David Paul Newell (01:22:23.899)

So, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:22:27.913)

I think that's what creativity is. It's like problem solving really. It's finding solutions with what you have. So you remind me of again, this, I said it was a Casio keyboard, but it was actually Yamaha. It was Yamaha. And I think back, it's like, you know, just one of those toys. Basically you got, they must have mass produced a million of different kinds, but part of the, my own amusement.

David Paul Newell (01:22:33.999)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:22:40.463)

Yeah? cool.

Brian Funk (01:22:56.993)

in those days was seeing if I could use like the really garbagey sounds and make them sound cool. And that was like a creative challenge. It had this like distorted guitar that was just nothing like a distorted guitar. But I found a spot for it and I was like, yes, it works. You know, it's it's right in there. And those are that was a little challenge I had sort of put in the back of my head for when I got stuck or when I needed to.

David Paul Newell (01:23:01.487)

Right?

David Paul Newell (01:23:13.179)

So that's cool.

Brian Funk (01:23:24.555)

come up with something new or when I already added too many guitars or something. And I don't think flipping through the samples of kick drums or going through every preset and then seeing if you can download a new free plugin is creativity. think that's just looking for a way out of it. Whereas when you, like you say, if you decide I'm going to just use this one rack mount synth, like let's make it work. And it didn't.

kind of informs the art that you come up with too. And it all kind of goes hand in hand.

David Paul Newell (01:23:57.044)

Yeah. Well, you have to love it to begin with, right? It's like I'm not picking a piece of equipment that I hate and go like, this sounds like crap. I'm going to figure out a way to use it on everything. It's like, no, you find something that you really love and then you just go, OK, let's just what happens if we only do this?

Brian Funk (01:24:10.183)

Well, for me, it actually was. I did think that thing sounded like crap, but it's all I had, you know? So I didn't have another option. It was the keyboard. I was just, I didn't even think of it. It was just the keyboard.

David Paul Newell (01:24:13.312)

Well, that's true, right? Yeah. Right.

David Paul Newell (01:24:21.302)

But you loved the way that it sounded like crap, right? There was something fun about playing some... Yes. Yeah. See, and that's gotta be... It's gotta be fun. It's gotta be playful. And I think that that's... Like what you're hitting on is the same thing. I mean, the JV-1080 has its limitations. It's not perfect. But there's some stuff on there that just sounds really cool and different. And you're just like, okay.

Brian Funk (01:24:27.425)

I loved when I could get away with it, working, knowing how crappy it was. Yeah. That was fun. Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:24:48.788)

That is enough. That's fun to play with and just like riding that out. Let's see what happens. I'm like you though. I wish I would have held on to it though, man. There were so many. I had a really cool, when I was a little kid, I had a Casio Rapman keyboard. Yeah. Did you?

Brian Funk (01:25:03.091)

Yeah, made a pack out of that. Yeah, a friend of mine had it, let me borrow it, I sampled the whole thing.

David Paul Newell (01:25:12.094)

I think it was a Ratman 2 and it had like the wheel on it that you could like scratch with it. I wish I would have...

Brian Funk (01:25:15.457)

Yeah. Yeah. It had a little scratch wheel on it. It, you know, really. No, I mean, it was fun, but yeah, I did sample the daylights out of that thing and yeah, it's fun to like pull. I've got all the beats off of it and sometimes I'll pull those out and stretch them or something and see if I can make it into something weird.

David Paul Newell (01:25:21.894)

Hahaha!

David Paul Newell (01:25:30.697)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:25:35.867)

yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:25:41.339)

yeah.

Brian Funk (01:25:43.211)

Weird stuff happens to those old keyboard beats too when you start pulling them apart. The way it synthesizes those sounds or whatever it's doing. All those artifacts are interesting.

David Paul Newell (01:25:57.404)

That's cool. Yeah, I've been I haven't got to do as much of that cool stuff that you you've done. I mean, we're always. Dude, that would be awesome. I'll take it. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I I loved it.

Brian Funk (01:26:04.52)

I'll send you the Rapman pack.

Yeah. Yeah, I think I got that in. It's a whole collection of toy synths. call that just toy synths Ableton Live Pack. And it's a, it's got that Yamaha keyboard that I had, which died eventually, you know, just stopped working one day and that was it. But I, sampled that and yeah, sometimes I like to pull those up and just be like, all right, what can I do with these really primitive sounds and

David Paul Newell (01:26:18.713)

yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:26:26.942)

Bye.

David Paul Newell (01:26:36.297)

Yeah.

Yeah, that BA one I think is really fun for that because that original Casio was just kind of famous for that, right? was just like the crappy one that I think was a Dr. Luke uses it on everything. you know, if I'm looking for something that's just kind of playful and fun, that's always a fun one to play with.

Brian Funk (01:26:57.96)

Yeah. Yeah, those things are cool and they're immediate. There's nothing really to dig into with it. It's just, it's got the sounds and then, you know, go with it. It's up to you to make it music. And I think that's where creativity comes in. Cause then you might say, let me see if I can stretch it or put it through this reverb or, you know, where can we take it? You're kind of like exploring.

David Paul Newell (01:27:05.435)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:27:10.012)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:27:27.008)

You get in that side of the mind working.

David Paul Newell (01:27:30.438)

Yeah, it certainly, I think, forces you to grow some sort of skill set, right? When you're kind of like, just like, how can I use this thing to come up with something that I'm going to like? yeah, I think that that's for a while. used to, when I first kind of got started in my journey of music, was co-writing with a lot of artists in house music in Europe. And it was kind of less, less.

sound design, but certainly creativity wise, you know, I was kind of brought in as a ghostwriter and worked with the shapeshifters and Michael Gray and I had a publisher out of Ibiza. And I spent summer of 2015 living in London and spent some time in Ibiza during that period as well, working with a lot of these guys. But, you know, when you're a hired gun, so to speak, you're kind of brought into the studio to work for another artist. You're not like pursuing music you would want to record necessarily or

coming up with something that hopefully they will be happy with. And if they're happy with it, they will invite you back, of course. If you don't like it, that doesn't matter. And many times what you contribute in product will sound nothing like you had ever intended. But it really forces you to develop some sort of skill of like, OK, here I am under the gun in the studio, and I just have to come up with something that works for this song that I'm not even sure if I really like. But.

Brian Funk (01:28:38.568)

Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:28:58.866)

I feel like that was such a necessary step. I wouldn't have wanted to do that forever. Like I did it for two years. I got out of my contract after two years and moved on to pursue my own music. It actually, I think it ignited a deeper fire within me to do my own music. But that period was so necessary. It was like songwriting boot camp, so to speak, of just going through the motions of just like...

forcing myself to be creative when I didn't feel like it, when what the music was doing wasn't really doing it for me, and where perhaps I wasn't in an environment that I was comfortable in, I didn't have access to the gear that I wanted, and then forcing myself to kind of go through that and create something, which, like, still to this day, I don't look back at the music that I made as something that I'm ultra proud of or that I would...

you know, want to pursue more. But I wouldn't give anything up for that because that was such a necessary process to go through and develop hopefully something in myself that learns to like, just because I'm not feeling it just because I'm not at any given moment. And this happens for probably every song I've ever worked on. There is a moment where it just feels like, is this working? Is this not working? I don't know. And then just developing that muscle that pushes through that regardless.

Brian Funk (01:30:01.216)

Hmm.

David Paul Newell (01:30:25.901)

And then you realize that, yeah, that's just, that's just like almost like a writer's block that goes away. If you just continue to move forward with it, you'll finish it. And so there's seldom ever any tracks that I don't finish. We don't release everything, but there's seldom any tracks that I wouldn't say are not 80 % 90 % finished that I just don't feel like I can't complete. And I, and that wasn't the case. I don't think before that I definitely had a tendency to work on something.

And then when it just, the ideas stopped flowing, things stopped feeling like they were new. I got used to hearing the song in my own head, so it lost its novelty of being fresh. Then I would give up and then move on to the next thing or whatever. But I think after that period of just kind of forcing yourself to power through, definitely helped with that process. Hopefully, hopefully you'll hear it for yourself when we release the album.

Brian Funk (01:31:18.336)

I bet. Well, I bet it does. And kind of talked about it a little bit. You get in your head a lot when you do this. And one of my ways around this is just to try to move really fast and just keep going, keep working at a speed that I don't even have time to judge it. You know, like kind of like in that case with your experience sounds like it doesn't matter if you like it.

David Paul Newell (01:31:47.457)

No.

Brian Funk (01:31:48.416)

the point is to just make it and When I'm in that phase, I actually have the most fun as it's like I'm just making music. I'm just doing it and of course, it's not I'm trying to make stuff. want to make and that I like but I'm kind of bypassing that like inner critic circuitry that comes up if I don't go fast enough so when it's just like

in these like more sprinty kind of workflows that I find I enjoy the most and often get the most done just because you're moving. And just don't stop to worry about it. It's not an issue. I just have to finish this for today and then the end. I can judge it later.

David Paul Newell (01:32:35.839)

Yeah Yeah, I was I I think it was fun even when I was kind of in those environments where I when I say that it wasn't probably as natural or it wasn't as fulfilling just because Perhaps I'm really controlling and I just like to be in the driver's seat Which I will admit is the case and of course with midnight mystery club I get to do that and so I'm thankful that I get to do that Levar lets me to do that to some extent so we have a good relationship in that regard

At least in the environment where you're writing for other people, you don't get to be in that. And so it's still fun. I love the people I worked with. Great people. We had a good time, but I always feel like I have a, I tend to judge what I do by how it feels six months, two years, six years later. Like to me, my favorite songs, not just by myself, but by, by anybody are the ones that a lot of times I didn't like or

They didn't hit me as much the first time I heard them. Like wasn't I didn't like it. It just I didn't my brain didn't fully comprehend what I was hearing. And after six months, I was obsessed with him. And I still listen to those songs and maybe they came out 20, 30, 40 years ago. And I still can listen to them all day long. And almost the opposite is true. Like songs that were very interesting and appealing to me early on. They had a really short shelf life.

And I don't really listen to them as much anymore. And there's artists like that for me. And so I think I look back on that period of time where I was forced to kind of be under the gun, come up with stuff and create. I still, I'm so thankful for it. I still had fun doing it, but it was perhaps more in that category of songs that as time went on, I wasn't necessarily as proud of the work that I did. It wasn't to me what I would like to have done. It just didn't feed that feeling.

with Midnight Mystery Club, not every song, but I would say more often than not, we're able to do stuff that I tend to grow to love even more than I did on day one. And that's, I think that is part of that process, is developing that muscle that sees the light at first morning, though you're not there yet in the process. You're pushing through because you've seen the finish line enough times.

David Paul Newell (01:35:02.097)

to make you realize that part of the process is that you, like you're saying, you have to power through some nights. Like some nights it's just like, I just got to finish this to make sure that I finished it. I got to keep working on it so that I don't give up on it. But after a while, that becomes easier and easier because you finished it, you look back on it and you know that perhaps it's a little bit of a misconception, but I think when I was younger and naive in making music, I thought great songs just appear out of nowhere magically.

Like the good stuff you make, you hear all these musicians talking about it. We were in the studio and I wrote the song in five minutes and we recorded it. It was done at the end of the day. And you just go, that's what it's like to make great music. You don't hear all the times about how difficult it was to make really great songs that took a long time and that were super challenging and ran into tons of issues. Like what was it I think I heard it like beat it, had like 93 mixes or something like that before they settled on mix number two.

And so like you go, well, that wasn't an easy process. That was sounds like a nightmare, but, but like, always, I always feel like when I was younger, I was naive. I, I thought that good songs just kind of came to you. So my tendency to like, go, well, this isn't working. Like, I'm not feeling this. Then this must not be good because it's not coming naturally. This must not be worth it because it's not moving under its own momentum.

Brian Funk (01:35:59.136)

Thanks

David Paul Newell (01:36:26.455)

and I'm forcing it. So I'm going to move on to something else that doesn't feel like I'm forcing it. And I think that was a total misconception about the process that I grew out of and that now I kind of go, no, many times it's the opposite. Many times it's like there becomes a point in most songs where you kind of go, is this working? Is this a struggle? I'll save a version of that there in Ableton and I'll label that as one thing and then I'll duplicate that session and then I'll move on from there, you know?

And then I'll go, okay, cool. Well, I'm just going to continue to ride this out. If at any point I go, I've made some wrong turns, I'm now more lost than ever. I have a version I can go back to, but, but yeah, but I feel like I seldom ever do. It's always like, you know, it's just, that's part of the process. You hit, sometimes you hit walls, sometimes you hit these things and, then you learn to have fun, even in the, the challenging times of working, even in the challenging times where everything's not falling into place magically.

Brian Funk (01:36:55.017)

Hmm.

David Paul Newell (01:37:24.493)

you're having fun hitting your head against the wall a little bit to kind of come up with something new.

Brian Funk (01:37:30.547)

Hmm. Yeah, that's cool. That's a great place to wind up, you know. Having fun doing it.

David Paul Newell (01:37:37.752)

Yeah, Yeah, trying to.

Brian Funk (01:37:41.375)

I'm excited to hear the product of it all. So you said that's going to be July where the telescope comes out. Cool.

David Paul Newell (01:37:49.708)

Yeah, so telescope comes out on july 10th. We'll have a handful of singles coming out Probably starting in march and then we'll be releasing singles pretty much all the way through up to the album release I only advise for you will be out on april 3rd And that's actually one of the few songs that's not going to be on the album telescope But that's just released as a single right now But perhaps one day we'll we'll put that out in another group

but Telescope will be out in July. And then, yeah, I think if people are curious, they wanna find out more, they can check us out on our website, which is midnightmysteryclub.com. There's a button there that just says join the club. And if you join the club, you'll find out about all the new stuff. And we try to like release music to people that follow us online before we even release it anywhere else. So I think right now, if you sign up on the website, you should.

join the club, it'll send you an email right away and you can get, I only have eyes for you, even before it comes out. So if you're watching this before July, or before April 3rd, do that now. And probably do that anyway, because we'll probably send you music. If you want stuff, we'll send it to you. If you don't want it, don't download it. But yeah, but it'll be there if you want it. So, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:38:52.905)

That's cool.

Brian Funk (01:39:06.665)

That's awesome. So we've got some stuff to look forward to and, yeah, man, it's, it's been really great to talk to you. You know, we've had those interactions and, it's funny how you find sometimes people that have like kind of gone a very similar path, you know, with getting started and how we come from, we've got roots in our beginnings and all this. but it, yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:39:15.371)

Thanks, man. It was great. Yeah.

David Paul Newell (01:39:23.882)

Right?

David Paul Newell (01:39:29.707)

Yeah.

Only took us 10 years to do this, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:39:36.069)

Overnight success in 10 years, right? That kind of thing. but it's because you you love it and It's definitely apparent talking to you. So I'm glad you shared that all with us and spread that joy and inspiration to people listening. I'm sure You said midnight mystery club comm right and then I know that it's all linked We get socials and all of that from there, too So I'll put these in the show notes as well so people can check it out

David Paul Newell (01:39:46.236)

Cheers buddy.

David Paul Newell (01:40:04.001)

Cool. Awesome. Thanks bud. Thanks for having me, man. This was great. Really fun. Yeah.

Amani and I discussed the challenges artists face from creating music to releasing and sharing it with the world. Amani has powerful insights that can help musicians develop a strong body of work, while making constant progress and enthusiasm in their craft.

Listen on Apple,Spotify,YouTube

Links:

• Amani's Website - https://www.amaniexperience.com

• Amani's Coaching - https://www.amaniexperience.com/coaching

• Amani’s Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/amaniexperience

• Book a Call with Amani - https://www.amaniexperience.com/call

• Bird by Bird by Ann Lamont - https://amzn.to/3PGjxIb

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.17)

Welcome Amani, nice to have you here today.

Amani Roberts (00:04.43)

Thank you very much, Brian. I'm excited to be here and chat with you.

Brian Funk (00:08.992)

Yeah, you know, I'm picking up on your enthusiasm right away. It's something I noticed in some of the video work that you have posted online. And I guess that's gotta be a crucial role if you're gonna be an artist, if you're gonna be a producer, if you're gonna be somebody that's trying to share things with the world. If you're not enthusiastic, you know, it's gonna be tough to find people to become enthusiastic for you.

Amani Roberts (00:29.294)

Yeah.

I would agree. It would translate very quickly to people if you weren't enthusiastic about your artwork, for sure. Yeah.

Brian Funk (00:38.22)

I think even a lot of the artists that come across as kind of just the artist, know, this is important, they do really deeply care, you know, just even get to that point to even share any kind of art with the world.

Amani Roberts (00:53.046)

Yeah, yeah, because when they they share the art, they put themselves out there for people to love it, hate it, criticize it. You remember what Erica Badu said? She said, I'm an artist and I'm sensitive about my, you know, stuff, paraphrasing. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10.964)

It's kind of funny though, because you have to develop a really thick skin as well. Because I don't know of too many other lines of work where rejection is just kind of the norm. It's really most of what people will see. Or if they're lucky, I think probably even indifference is really the big one.

Amani Roberts (01:34.838)

Yeah, yeah, which indifference is worse. Rejection, consistent rejection is what I would add to what you said, because for every 99 nos, you might get one yes, but you never remember the yes or always remember the no's. And then when you meet people who don't even respond or don't even care, that that hurts even more because indifference, think they say hate is not the opposite of love. It's really indifference, so to speak. So that that kind of relates to that.

Brian Funk (02:01.74)

Yeah, I've heard that too. It's not hate, it's just no feeling at all. Because a lot of good art is polarizing. Some people love it and other people, they don't get it, they don't like it, it rubs them the wrong way.

Amani Roberts (02:05.358)

Yeah, that's worse. Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (02:14.104)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (02:17.462)

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Brian Funk (02:22.014)

So you've got some experience in the business as an artist. Do you want to tell us a little about how you got to where you are? And now you're coaching, you're speaking, you're helping artists with their art. So you don't come out of nowhere with this. You've got the chops to back it up.

Amani Roberts (02:32.856)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, thank you. It wasn't an overnight success. Really started as a DJ, probably now almost 20 years ago in LA. Just DJing local spots and then a close friend of mine told me I should go to Scratch Academy to learn really the real way how to DJ. So I went to that program and went through six plus an extra semester because I failed one of my final classes. I had to retake it, which was quite humbling but very rewarding.

Then I went back to Scratch Company for music production school and then all the way still performing, getting to bigger venues, concerts, and then private events, which was really good. And then I went to Berklee College of Music, get my master's in music business because I was a professor and I love being a professor. And then after that, just continuing to grow, wrote two books.

which is on the subject of music. One was basically taking the time slots of a DJ set and relating it to growing a business. That was the first one that came out in 2020. Then I wrote a book on the history of R &B groups, which came out a year ago. That made the USA Today bestseller list. And then just still performing and now I'm more into speaking. I bring music to the stage and then I coach the nine to five creative, basically people who work in nine to five, but

want to be are currently musicians and I help them kind of learn about making the best business decisions and then sometimes I'll work with them as well. So that's kind of a quick summary. That's my, you know, my history.

Brian Funk (04:12.787)

Right. Were you teaching in person at Berkeley?

Amani Roberts (04:16.952)

So I took classes online at Berkeley because it was during the pandemic. And so I went to the online program and then you could go there like once a year. And then I teach in person at Cal State University Fullerton. I teach music business there and I've been there now. It will be eight years in August. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (04:36.117)

Nice, very good. Yeah, I teach a music production, a sampling class with Ableton Live at Berkeley for the online. And I love it. It's been a real, I feel like I learned the most every semester, you know, cause you're listening to people's work and how they're interpreting the assignments and just being exposed to different styles of music, different approaches. And also just in our live classes, when they ask questions, go, yeah.

Amani Roberts (04:44.236)

that's great.

Brian Funk (05:05.545)

Yeah, okay, yeah. And even if you don't know the answer, you wind up doing the research so you can help them out later. Teaching is a great way to learn anything.

Amani Roberts (05:06.018)

Yeah, exactly.

Amani Roberts (05:12.078)

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, I love it. I tell my students the first day of class, the last day of class, say the first day I say I want to learn as much from you all as you all going to learn from me. And then the last day of class like see, I learned as much from you as you all learn from me. And so I agree with you. The questions we got to put in the parking lot because I got to come back to them and do research. So and then just to learn about like their musical taste, the musicians that they're feeling, how they really it's like technology.

What are they using to discover music, keep track of it, how they use technology? When I was like, I'll say coming up, but when we've heard a song we liked, we try to shazam it or write down the cover, the title of it. But now they'll just remember a lyric and type in the lyric into Google and that's how they find songs. It's so fascinating just how different they do research. So they teach me about these different apps. There's one, I have to find the name of it where...

Brian Funk (06:02.283)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (06:12.672)

Instead of doing a website, you'll just have a splash page and you can engage with the artists that way because it'll take you to different links. My students were the one that told me about LELO first in terms of texting and everything. Every class, I'm writing down notes and taking notes for sure.

Brian Funk (06:30.133)

that like a Linktree type of site? Where they Yeah.

Amani Roberts (06:32.29)

The splash page, yes. Lalo is doing the direct text messaging to your fans and that's how you collect their cell phone numbers and engage with them. The two I've kind of discovered that work well is like Lalo and I use Subtext because I'll send out music business news like twice a week and Subtext is also good when that's pretty popular with musicians. You also have Community and then the one that Ryan Leslie created, his is Superphone I believe.

Brian Funk (07:00.501)

Wow, so these are all direct to the cell phone, text message? Okay, so I've always found email to be the most effective way to reach people. mean, social media posts now, especially maybe back in the day when we first started social media, when you got the chronological feed, people would see your stuff, but once it became algorithmic and boosting the posts, suddenly you're getting no eyes.

Amani Roberts (07:04.706)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (07:28.16)

But email was at least consistent, but even email is so polluted with spam and stuff, but right to the phone, that's pretty cool. That's very direct.

Amani Roberts (07:33.112)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (07:39.694)

Yeah, that will... If you can get a fan's or a supporter's phone number and they give it to you, that's very precious. I still think email is valuable, although there's a lot of noise, because at least you own your email list. Like one thing I teach and train my artists is like, let's find a good lead magnet for you to put on your website so you can incentivize people who are visiting to just give you their email address, whether it's be an acapella version of a song.

Brian Funk (07:47.787)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (08:08.03)

or maybe it's a PDF of how to produce a certain beat or add a filter, something of value that you can get their email address and that way you can create more direct one-on-one conversations. If you can also get their cell phones at the same time, that's even more valuable because then you can really talk to them directly and that's what you'll see some big artists do because you want to get them into your ecosystem, into your kind of community and grow from there.

Brian Funk (08:33.897)

Hmm. I would imagine that that's not a direct link back to your cell phone,

Amani Roberts (08:39.528)

No, you would use like a special, special phone like, you know, subtext they give you a kind of a burner phone for lack of a better word. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (08:46.643)

Yeah. Okay. I guess I could see how that could be really good up to a certain level. And then it's like, my God, you know. but I have to imagine this probably different rules and etiquette to that kind of communication as opposed to, I mean, social media, can kind of blast and spam because they'll look at if they want to, they'll see it if they want to email is a little more delicate.

Amani Roberts (08:54.754)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (09:16.142)

Yeah, and it stopped.

Brian Funk (09:16.683)

But I would have to imagine cell phone, text message. Do you find there's any kind of convention with that? Is there a certain type of message you might send on a cell phone compared to, say, an email?

Amani Roberts (09:20.248)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Amani Roberts (09:30.51)

I think it's got to be quick and to the point and random. If you have a new song coming out and you're offering your fans early access, you could say, okay, you've got 48 hours to listen to this track before the rest of the public sees it. People like that because that's inter-sider access. It's really sharing, much less so selling. However, if you have a concert or show that's coming up,

And the good thing about cell phones is you can geo-target it. So say you have a show coming up in Atlanta. You can say, for all my people who are based in Atlanta, let me send them a text message saying, okay, pre-sales are going to open 36 hours from my concert. That's going to be Atlanta at this place. If you're interested, hit this link and get access. So if it's short, direct it to the point and you're not spamming people, but it offers value quickly and gives them that insider feeling.

then it works. But it can't just be little things here and there about all just put up a new post on Instagram or like this or like that. It's got to be really purposeful and really provide that feeling of being a VIP.

Brian Funk (10:26.506)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (10:37.022)

Hmm. Do you recommend any kind of frequency to that kind of communication?

Amani Roberts (10:42.574)

It depends on how often you're putting out content like releasing new music or you're having shows. So weekly can work if you have a lot of stuff coming out, but at least once a month so people don't forget about it either. So you kind of want to work that balance between a week to a month and just make sure it continues to be purposeful and you have a good call to action so they can take action.

Brian Funk (10:55.434)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (11:06.844)

Mm-hmm. That's kind of the new funny world we live in, right? Where you get forgotten about. You don't come out with new music in a year and forget it. You're off the radar. Whereas in the past, you could go a couple years. It was sort of understood. An artist might take some time, but not so much. guess you don't get to make those...

Amani Roberts (11:13.57)

Yes.

Amani Roberts (11:18.946)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (11:26.83)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (11:34.878)

big concept albums and then show up out of nowhere. Very few artists.

Amani Roberts (11:39.246)

Unless your name is Rihanna, then you don't have to come up with any music and you're getting more streams and you're getting, you know, growing. That's the exception to the rule, but you have to at least share content, share behind the scenes, even if you're not releasing music, but you're still having activity. Maybe you have a show here or show there. Just show that you're still getting the work done and that will really...

your fans at ease to let them know that you're still doing work and they still can see what you're up to and maybe you know you release maybe it's an official track it's like unofficial or an EP or you do a collaboration or you sing with someone you just have to show activity consistently in your own cadence you don't have to bombard people but they just like the fans like to know that you're still kind of with them on on the road so to speak yeah yeah yeah

Brian Funk (12:28.798)

Hmm. Yeah. Your journey is continuing. And now, yeah, we have a lot of fun creative ways to do that sort of stuff now. And it's not, it doesn't always have to be such a huge production. can just be kind of showing up and even, I'm in the studio. Here's the beat or we're putting together.

Amani Roberts (12:48.078)

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You can go live for five or 10 minutes. They're different. It's much easier now. You could say, you know, I'm doing this or I'm going to this concert or on vacation. You know, just kind of let people know you're OK and you're working on things and you're not just, you know, disappearing. Now, some artists can get away with disappearing and coming back completely. But for the majority of artists, you just have to continue to show activity so your fans will continue to support you and be ready.

Brian Funk (13:18.622)

Yeah, I guess that those are the artists that have really made an impact, a huge splash, their superstar status, where the news is chasing them, right? Yeah, Rihanna, like you said, someone like that.

Amani Roberts (13:29.374)

Exactly. Remember Rihanna, she's got other ventures. She got Fenty. So she got her whole beauty company. She's in movies. So she's created a brilliant kind of just different ways to reach people. So she's not releasing music, but she's been in a bunch of movies. She's got new products coming out. Like she always stays top of mind. And that's kind of the new model for artists is like, what else can you do?

besides your art to really stay top of mind. Whether it's a certain sponsorship opportunity, maybe you're dabbling into acting, maybe you start a podcast, different things you can do to stay top of mind so it's not always just about singing. Music.

Brian Funk (14:10.73)

Right. This day and age, right, where there's so much content, whether it's human-made or not, there's more than ever. To just show that kind of person side of you, the human side of you, seems to be more important than ever. I think it's our saving grace in the world we're entering.

Amani Roberts (14:22.926)

the

Amani Roberts (14:38.924)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (14:39.078)

having humanity and sharing that.

Amani Roberts (14:42.05)

Yeah, yeah, I agree. The more we get into using AI, the more we thirst and desire human experiences in person, just talking to a real person that is authentic and is not perfect.

Brian Funk (14:50.355)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (14:57.15)

Yeah, yeah, they're interesting. They're... And it's like you said, like, for me as a kid, I was wearing like ripped jeans and flannel shirts because I love Nirvana and the grunge movement, you know? And Rihanna's got makeup and movies and things that she's doing and fashion and those are things you don't get with just... It's not just the content.

Amani Roberts (14:59.758)

You

Brian Funk (15:22.12)

that you're putting out. It's also the person there. And it's almost always the first question I ask when I hear a song that I like, who is that? Who, who, who, who are the people behind that? And I guess that's probably made or break my enjoyment of the music many times. Like, it's them? Like you feel bad that you like it. Maybe it's, you know, for whatever reason, an artist you're not that down with and...

Amani Roberts (15:30.776)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right.

Amani Roberts (15:41.55)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (15:46.36)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (15:49.926)

suddenly it changes your taste in the song or makes you like it more. cool. That's,

Amani Roberts (15:52.876)

Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. That's funny. Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:01.489)

So I wonder if you find some connections with DJing and performing like that to also speaking in conferences or in classrooms or just in that kind of sharing of information. Do you see a similar performance aspect?

Amani Roberts (16:24.282)

Yeah, definitely with speaking in the classroom. think one of the most important skills as a DJ and yet one of the hardest skills to master because it's always changing is how to read a room. I think that you have to do the same thing when you're speaking. You have to read the room when you're teaching. mean, you definitely have to read the room because if students are starting to of doze off, get on their phones, leave, go to the bathroom, you have to really, really figure out ways to keep people's attention. I think that's a

Brian Funk (16:35.049)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (16:53.838)

distinct crossover when it comes to DJing, performing, to speaking. In addition, I bring the music to the stage. Whenever I'm speaking, I'm going to be playing music. I prefer to have my turntables up there so that I tell a lot of stories because I speak about creativity. I tell a lot of stories and use different groups and artists' journeys to exhibit the point. For example, if I tell a story about persistence, I might talk about the Supremes.

and how the Supremes were first signed and they were only allowed to clap hands on songs. And then eventually they got through to being able to sing backup. Then they were able to release their own music. They were called within Motown at first the No-Hit Supremes, but then they kind of blew up and went on an amazing run. So that's persistence, resilience. I like to tell a story either about the group, The Whispers. The R &B group took them 23 years to get their first Billboard 100 Top 10 song.

Even if I'm talking to younger students, I love to talk about a Chappell Rhone and how she released Pink Pony Club, then was dropped from the label five months later. Then she went home, was so humble she had to work in a drive-through coffee place, then came back to LA, got signed to a smaller label. Then eventually she kept at it. Her Friday, her first break was touring on her own smaller venues.

Then she was able to open up for Olivia Rodrigo for her, I think it was the Bern, I forget the name of the tour, Guts Tour. And then she was able to kind of continue to grow, got the Grammy for best new artist last year. Then just in November of this past year, Pink Pony Club hit over a billion streams. And so that was all, because she pretty much started putting up YouTubes in 2013 under her real name of Kaylee. And then she just reached

The billion streams on Pink Pony Club 12 years later, which in the music industry is relatively quick, if we're being honest. 12 years is not long, but for her it was long because we like to count the pandemic as dog years. She was right in it during the pandemic. I just like to tell different stories like that when I speak. It's always about music, performing. If I don't have my turntables, I have a little stream deck that can stream the music.

Brian Funk (18:52.681)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (19:03.451)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (19:14.872)

That's kind of my long answer to your question about performing and the kind of differences and what I bring across.

Brian Funk (19:18.153)

Hmm.

Yeah, reading the room, right. Of course. What is the reaction going on here? That is tough. Especially when you have a plan. As a teacher, I can relate to that. You got the plan and you're just watching it crash and it's just not hitting.

Amani Roberts (19:26.412)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (19:36.77)

Yes. So you got to pivot. got to adjust. One thing that I've learned is that if you have a plan and it's not working for teaching, I always have a couple backup activities, whether it's a video we can watch, whether it's a game we can play, then if all else fails, everyone loves trivia. So if you can create some trivia questions based on the lesson and give out some prizes, that works well too. And so...

Just having some backup plans which comes through experience because you know it works and what doesn't work. I try to for my lessons, I'm not sure how long your classes are. Most of my classes are about an hour and 15 minutes. I try to break it up in lecture at the beginning because I have their attention then. Then we do videos or something in a group. Then we'll come back and do sharing and talking as a group. Then we'll have an in activity which is some sort of gamification. Then open Q &A and then we're finished.

five or six different ways to teach. Some people are good visual learners. Some people are good learning. Some people learn by feeling, touching, experiencing. So if you can touch those each lesson, then you'll get more people involved because they'll know that they're going to have their preferred way of learning as part of the lesson. But that only came through a lot of learning and a lot of crashing and burning.

Brian Funk (20:58.697)

Yeah. Well, I, my Berkeley classes are usually pretty good and pretty good at, you know, nice energy. People want to be there. They paid money and they're excited and they're, we're talking about making music. We all love it. So everyone's excited. My day job is high school English teacher. This is a much different crowd. I mean, there's no way to.

Amani Roberts (21:09.292)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (21:17.39)

Wow.

So you get to practice twice a day. Wow, high school English.

Brian Funk (21:29.284)

hide it or you know it's it's not hidden they don't care if they don't not feel on it they'll put their head down like they don't feel bad they gotta go to the bathroom like mid big moment of lesson oh yeah yeah Johnny you yeah you with me okay can I go to the bathroom you know so that all that stuff but it does teach you about transitioning changing pace and

Amani Roberts (21:33.88)

Yeah, yeah. That's funny. Yeah.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (21:48.352)

yeah, wow.

Brian Funk (21:58.323)

You know, and they don't want to be there, you know, and if you told them they didn't have to come, even no matter how much they love you, they love your class, like they wouldn't be there.

Amani Roberts (22:04.822)

Yeah, yeah, that's true. It's funny. High school English. So I use, do you ever have them read or study like Edgar Allan Poe? So it's funny because I use Edgar Allan Poe as a way to teach the different types of media that musicians have. So I take Edgar Allan Poe and we always ask, what's your favorite Edgar Allan Poe story or book or whatever? They'll share what theirs are. Then I say, well, take his last name. And when you look at marketing,

Brian Funk (22:14.802)

Yeah, sure.

Amani Roberts (22:34.422)

You have to do, you can do paid marketing, which is like ads you buy. You can have owned marketing, which is your website, maybe social media, your email list. They could have earned, which is when a magazine will write about you, not for fee or word of mouth. So I will use Edgar Allen Poe's so that they remember paid, owned and earned and it works very well. So that's my high school English reference for you. Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:57.53)

Hmm. Yeah, that's good. It's a good memory tool as well. Just having those seemingly random connections that you're making. Well, there's an artist who, you know, even in his day really did not see the fame. I don't think he died knowing we'd be talking about him and we'd be reading them in classrooms.

Amani Roberts (23:07.042)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (23:22.092)

Yeah. Yeah, very true. Yeah.

Brian Funk (23:25.722)

Sometimes that's the way it goes, persistence or something. But he did build quite the body of work.

Amani Roberts (23:29.612)

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Amani Roberts (23:35.654)

Haha, we like that word, body of work. Yes, he put the work in, released all his art and it kind of, you know, when you plant seeds in a garden, his garden grew to be very, very lush over time.

Brian Funk (23:46.249)

So how do you bring that up with your, whether it's in your seminars or your students, this concept, the body of work, probably especially because I would guess a lot of those people are pretty early in their careers, so they're eager and they want everything to be the thing and probably putting a lot of weight on everything they're doing.

Amani Roberts (24:06.051)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (24:09.624)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (24:13.218)

Well, I try to use different examples of musicians they can relate to to show them what's possible. So a lot of, know, especially the younger generation, they love Taylor Swift, but I'll show them just how many albums she's released, what else she's released in between the albums, the ups and downs she's gone through to try to get back her songs, the dispute she had with Spotify when she took her music off.

So then they can see, okay, she's been releasing music for a good 15, 20 years. She's got this album, that album, she's telling a story, that's her body of work. Then we'll take an artist that maybe is a little bit more underground that they like, and I'll say, let's look at their body of work. And they might have one album, one or two albums out, they're releasing a third single. But then I'll also talk about, well, let's look at their tour. So let's see where they've gone on tour. Did they go on to a nightclub tour?

Okay, what cities did they visit? Then did they graduate to go to an opener for maybe a small amphitheater? Okay, so they're adding to their body of work. Then let's add in their merchandise. What's some of their early merch they've had? T-shirts, hoodies, stickers. This is all part of their body of work. They've kind of growing, graduating along the way. So they see that. Then we'll go to someone maybe very famous. Like we'll use Dolly Parton a lot as an example because she has got an amazing body of work between being a songwriter.

a performer, a host, owning an amusement park, being in movies, writing movies, having a TV show, albums in different genres that she was dipping into. I said, okay, let's look at her body of work and then we see. I show them that. Then we have an activity, particularly in class. I'm sure you've seen the little memes or challenges where you have like, you have $10 to spend and you must pick four artists and there's some in the $5 and the four and the three and the two. I have four or five of them I use.

I have one for all female artists. I you have a female super group. Who are you going to pick? What really gets them is that I'll say, who do you want to take out of the grid or who do want to move up or down? You might have, I think the top of the grid was Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Dua Lipa, and someone else. At the bottom, had maybe Selena Gomez, Brandi, Jasmine Sullivan, and some other people.

Amani Roberts (26:32.172)

So let's say, no, we need to move Jasmine Sullivan up or Selena Gomez, you need to take her off and add this artist on. And I say, why? And I say, okay, well, this artist, she's got this album that came out, this album that came out and that. So, okay, you're talking about their body of work basically and what they're done and what they're doing. So when it gets to like body of work, I try to show them different ways to evaluate it. And if someone gets it when I tell them the story about Dolly Parton, that's good.

Brian Funk (26:45.682)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (26:57.218)

But someone might get it when I break down and show them the grid. Like, I see. Well, this is why Lady Gaga, she's up on the five dollar level because not only does she have the acting, the singing, she has a residency in Vegas, et cetera. So that's kind how I teach and show people the different stages in terms of your body of work, but the importance of it. The best example is that I say, OK, you know that Dahlia Parton, she was very, very young in her career when she wrote I Will Always Love You. And then I say, you know, there was a time period in the middle.

where Elvis Presley wanted to cover that, but he wanted to take all the publishing from it and Dolly was like, absolutely not, because that's where the money is, the long money is. But then Whitney Houston came along and they were able to come to an agreement and the song makes her more money than any song she's ever produced. So you can see how something early on in your body of work can pay off later. You just have to all the rights. So then they learn about publishing and things like that. So I try to show them different examples, but get them to experience it along the way too.

Brian Funk (27:46.696)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (27:56.09)

I did not know that about Elvis. And to turn down Elvis, of all people, that takes, she is cool, man. It's a great documentary I saw on her recently and I was just like, what a...

Amani Roberts (27:57.966)

Yes. Yes.

Yes, amazing human being, yes.

Amani Roberts (28:09.582)

Oh, let me know because I read about her, I would love to watch the documentary.

Brian Funk (28:14.693)

Yeah, I got to figure out what it was called. was a couple months back. Relatively new documentary, but you just left it being like, what a bad-ass person, you know? Really just real, through it all, so real too. Not on another wavelength where she's unrelatable. She's a regular person, but brilliant songwriter.

Amani Roberts (28:24.622)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, very rare.

Amani Roberts (28:38.862)

Yeah. Yeah. Agreed.

Brian Funk (28:43.205)

business person too. Because I don't know if there's a lot of people that would tell Elvis, nah, you can't cover my song if you're, because Elvis could probably do almost anything he wanted. yeah, for that to come along with Whitney Houston was, that was like the biggest song ever when it came out.

Amani Roberts (28:50.924)

Yeah. Yeah.

Basically.

Amani Roberts (29:01.655)

It was, yes.

Brian Funk (29:03.589)

I heard a story about her, which I don't know if it's completely true, but I like to believe it's true because this is something that I can use to motivate myself when I need motivation, that she wrote that song and Jolene in the same day.

Amani Roberts (29:14.093)

Okay.

Amani Roberts (29:19.35)

I would believe it. Yeah. Now do you know why she wrote that song? Do know why she wrote, will always love you?

Brian Funk (29:21.168)

Brian Funk (29:24.921)

No, I don't.

Amani Roberts (29:26.126)

So she used to be on a TV show and be the cohost with Porter Wagner. And he brought her on as like her cohort host and they would also have music and produce music and do the show. And she was leaving and he was very mad and wouldn't speak to her. So the only way she could get her message across to him was to write that song. So that song is really her letter to him.

Brian Funk (29:36.449)

She's leaving, Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:46.12)

I think that's in the documentary actually that you mentioned it. Yeah. So I don't know if I even heard it in the documentary or just, you know, kind of myth and legend, but that she wrote them in the same day. And that is the thing that helps me a lot. Those days when I got time to make the music, but it's like, I don't know, I'm tired. Maybe I'll sit on the couch today, you know, cause I really believe that each time you sit down to

Amani Roberts (29:48.622)

Yeah,

Brian Funk (30:15.463)

create something is different. if after we speak, I've just spoken to you, I'm at a certain energy level, maybe the coffee that I'm drinking now is still kind of kicking and feeling good after having a nice conversation, I'm a different me than I will be say tomorrow morning. And what I'm going to write is going to be different. And whether I'm with people and that even if they're not writing the song with me, just because they're there, it's going to come out differently. So

It's like if she didn't sit down that day to write, she doesn't have those two songs. I don't know that you write those songs the next day. I think you kind of have to be there at the right time, which is a lot of my motivation to show up and kind of remember like, well, what Dolly Parton did, or something like that.

Amani Roberts (30:49.688)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (31:05.442)

Yes. Yeah.

Well, yes, that's true. And she's prolific. So she's probably still got thousands of songs in the archives that haven't even been released yet because she would just write and write whether she was on the tour bus in the hotel at home on a walk. She that's what she first started doing is writing songs and she's very skilled at it. So absolutely. I think it's the same thing as like when we're DJing. No two crowds are ever the same. They're always in a different emotional state, different people, different things going on. So I kind of draw that kind of

Brian Funk (31:32.433)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (31:38.85)

comparison to what you said.

Brian Funk (31:40.677)

Hmm, sure, yeah, different day, different news cycle, different venue. Yeah, and then you're different as the DJ here. You set them up with a different track maybe than you did yesterday and some.

Amani Roberts (31:45.358)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (31:52.59)

Yes, yes, we have our old, we have our ones that we can always go to, but we try to set it up in different ways. And then we have to mix in new music too. Yeah.

Brian Funk (32:01.543)

Mm-hmm. Mm.

I think that there's something to that that when we create, kind of when we do anything, I guess, really, but there's this whole chain reaction of things and ripple effects that all have to come together for something to happen exactly as it does. Almost like our planet, you know, just the right space, just the right age of the sun and all that. All the coincidences have to line up and...

Amani Roberts (32:30.273)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (32:36.399)

I like that way of thinking because I think it adds a little sort of magic to every moment. That, okay, like I'm gonna sit down today and this is gonna be a one shot only, one of a kind moment. Gets me through the procrastination sometimes because I face that a lot. I love making music like more than anything.

Amani Roberts (32:53.717)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:00.955)

But when I have the time to do it, I'm very often like, okay, well, maybe I'll just do the dishes. I'll clean a little, because I know I can get that done. I don't know if I'm gonna make anything good today, I can accomplish my chores.

Amani Roberts (33:06.178)

Yeah, yeah.

Amani Roberts (33:11.608)

Well, they say procrastination is a form of fear. so, know, fear of failure, but fear of success. That's probably one of the bigger fears that people don't consider. Like, how can I do better than what I did yesterday? And when yesterday I made an amazing song, how can I make an even bigger one? So I think procrastination is born a lot from fear.

Brian Funk (33:17.287)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:37.273)

I agree and I know it. I feel it and it doesn't get better. Like what the hell, you know? I find my experience, I know what I'm doing more. And this is one of the last video podcasts I did was about that. Like I've been doing it more and more and yet it's not easier. It might even be harder. Maybe I'm thinking about it too much because

Amani Roberts (33:40.084)

Me too! Me too!

Amani Roberts (33:46.636)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (34:06.373)

The first time I pick up a new instrument or try a new plugin or something, it's exciting and I'm playing with it. And I guess the expectation is low because I don't really know how to work it yet and fun things happen. But then once I learn it, when I get accustomed to it, then it's like, well, you should know what you're doing now. Something good should happen. And then that kind of cloud is hanging over everything I'm doing and I'm questioning if this is good. Am I doing it? Am I?

Amani Roberts (34:24.95)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (34:35.205)

living up to where I should be at this point. And not a lot of good comes out of that thinking.

Amani Roberts (34:38.702)

Yeah, that's no, I just got to kind of what do they say? Acknowledge it and keep moving forward is the best way. Just acknowledge it. So we're not going to pretend it's not there and then just keep moving forward so it doesn't completely railroad the creative process.

Brian Funk (34:58.439)

So take a minute, realize it's happening.

Amani Roberts (35:01.388)

Yeah, acknowledge it and then just keep moving forward and try to get something done. The same thing happens with writing. Writing a book, you can get stuck very easily. Or you get stuck editing it, which is the same thing as you're trying to add a filter or add some new things to a song that you're producing or creating. You can get stuck in minutiae. Whereas if you would just write and don't edit until the end, that would help because it's the editing and the overthinking in the middle that stops many of us.

Brian Funk (35:31.463)

Yeah, I can see that as an English teacher, someone that likes to write. And as a music producer where you got the loop, it sounded kind of cool. then, all right, let's start compressing the kick drum and let's do the fine detail work before we have the whole canvas filled out. And the best thing you can get at that point is a really cool corner of your canvas or section of your song and everything else is empty or

Amani Roberts (35:36.785)

Yes!

Amani Roberts (35:42.051)

Yeah.

Exactly. just, you know.

Amani Roberts (35:49.858)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (36:00.94)

still underdeveloped. I find that with writing sometimes it's a little bit easier. I'll just read what I wrote yesterday and I'll fix that up.

Amani Roberts (36:09.646)

Don't do it. Don't do it. Yes, don't do it. I remember, I wish the book is around me somewhere. I have to get it because I always refer to it. It's Anne Lamott and she talks about Bird by Bird. Okay, so you know it. She talks about, I don't like the curse, but she talks about shitty first drafts. That's what we want to produce. That's good. I'm glad you know the book and you like it because it's really, really good, especially for the writing process.

Brian Funk (36:21.09)

I love that book. Yeah. Yeah.

huh.

Brian Funk (36:30.499)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (36:35.992)

It is. Sure, and it's all rooted in that story, I think, with her father about...

Amani Roberts (36:42.786)

her brother who's doing a report on the birds and he was stressed out because he waited to the last minute. said, father, just be patient. Let's just take it bird by bird. And they did the project and worked on that. And it's a great metaphor. Yeah.

Brian Funk (36:45.52)

Right.

Brian Funk (36:55.352)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, one thing at a time and it adds up eventually, you know? It's like the body of work. Like you just keep plugging away. Suddenly you have a body of work. Yeah, that book's full of great advice and...

Amani Roberts (36:59.022)

Yeah. This is true. is true. Yes.

Amani Roberts (37:13.166)

I recommend it to all of my authors. All of them. Yeah. It should be required reading.

Brian Funk (37:16.23)

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you can think it's literally about writing, but you can just take that and it's a metaphor for everything. Life, music, all that stuff. That's a lot of times when I'm talking to people on this podcast, I feel like we're talking about life, but we're doing it through the metaphor of music.

Amani Roberts (37:24.918)

Life. Yeah, life, exactly.

Amani Roberts (37:37.934)

I feel that way already. Yes, thank you.

Brian Funk (37:40.551)

Yeah, welcome. Welcome to the show. This is where we wind up. What are we really talking about here? Yeah, but I know that feeling of you want to perfect something and get it good, but it happens a lot in my mixes too where I'll work on, we got the drum track down. Okay, great. I'm going to get them sound really good. And yeah, now they sound great, right?

Amani Roberts (37:47.5)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (38:10.106)

But I've filled up the entire frequency range and my dynamic range. And now we got to add the bass and the guitar and the keys and all. There's no room. Right? So I got to dial it back anyway and change everything anyway. And I can very often find myself getting my work into this like moment of completion, but the idea is not there yet. Just as if I was doing a painting where I'm focusing on this first corner first.

Amani Roberts (38:17.166)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (38:34.904)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (38:39.694)

Hahaha

Brian Funk (38:41.294)

And you know, if you do any painting, you'll never really quite get those colors to match in the other corner, you know, cause you're to have to start over with your paints and that winds up happening. it's, but it is fear. I do agree. Cause the kind of editing stuff, the technical stuff that comes in when you start EQing and compressing things too early, that's not the...

Amani Roberts (38:49.506)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (39:07.48)

Huh.

Brian Funk (39:09.538)

artistic, well it can be artistic but it's not the creative part of writing the music and making the statements and all.

Amani Roberts (39:13.81)

yeah.

Yeah, fear holds so many of us back. Just fear of many, many things, but it's really, really the antithesis of the creative process.

Brian Funk (39:26.724)

Hmm. Yeah. It hasn't done so well. I guess sometimes you can channel it a little bit. And what you said about acknowledge it, I think is helpful. I know sometimes before live performances, I'll notice like, okay, I'm getting a little jittery. So all right, okay, here it is. I'd like to do like stretches and like, you know, a little warmup exercises and then, all right, we're gonna.

Amani Roberts (39:51.138)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:55.707)

this is going to be part of the, I guess like fertilizer or something for the show and then put it in there.

Amani Roberts (40:00.11)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (40:04.788)

I like it. Yeah, that's what you gotta do, for sure.

Brian Funk (40:10.416)

Do you find your students have any particular things they either keep coming back to or like stuff that artists struggle with in particular that you're able to help them through a bit? Any kind of common things that your experience has helped you through?

Amani Roberts (40:31.766)

Yeah, I would say the things that most of my students, whether it be in my class I'm teaching or my coaching students, clients, the fear of what people will think, fear of failure, fear what their friends will think, those are probably the three most common issues that you try to, because you know, if you're like a fractional artist manager, you're helping them with their creativity, but you're also kind of a therapist too. And so,

just making sure that they're well aware of the success they've already had. Really one success is they're showing up and creating because most people will not show up. They say 80 % of the game is showing up. And then if they've had some success in the past, just remind them of what they've achieved in the past, how well they did. And I feel sharing different stories, like I've shared a few stories with you about different artists, about some of the most famous artists have also struggled too.

I think that once people hear that, will ease a little bit of the fear and will give them some inspiration because like, okay, well, I didn't know that a Dolly Parton went through this or a Chaperone went through this or different groups had their struggles. People don't realize that because we don't talk about that, especially nowadays. It's all perfectly curated on Instagram and TikTok and everything. If you share stories, personal stories too, I tell them about how I mentioned it briefly in the beginning, like how...

I was at Scratch Academy and I didn't pass the last class. I missed it by two points. So I had to take it over again. It was very humbling. Everyone knew, but I was able to kind of check my ego at the door, come back, be of service to everyone in the class and get one of the highest scores ever for the final class, which there was no guarantee that I would pass because it's very subjective. We're performing. And just how you just said it, like I could be having a bad day. Maybe I got in a fight with like, you know, a girlfriend or maybe, you know,

Something happened in a family member is sick, so you're distracted. There's no guarantee that life is going to be perfect for you to perform. If I tell them the story about that and then I might show them a video reading different autobiographies, one of my favorite autobiographies from an artist is Charlie Wilson from the Gap Band and how he went from being very, very famous in the Gap Band to being homeless on drugs to now he's at a very high level again. I just think that a combination of all that, particularly stories.

Amani Roberts (42:57.646)

Letting people talk, letting them kind of analyze their fear, maybe even write about it. And then just continue to remind them of their success, which people seem to forget quickly. That's what I've used for all my coaching clients to help them get through some of their tougher times.

Brian Funk (43:14.629)

Yeah, the public opinion, the friend opinion even, the family opinion of it can be. Yeah, because I guess something that I've run into myself is this idea of sort of getting like psychoanalyzed by your art. Where I like to play around with characters in the songs and...

Amani Roberts (43:20.302)

Family opinion, that's the hardest, yeah.

Brian Funk (43:41.402)

They might be thoughts I had, but I don't necessarily believe it, but I'm playing around and exploring it and trying it on for size and maybe even making a little fun out of it. But I don't want to just have somebody be like, so what's going on with you, man? I heard what you said in that song. Or like wonder like, Hey, what is that? Is that about me or something like that? Where sometimes it's wordplay. Sometimes it's just.

Amani Roberts (43:59.117)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (44:03.576)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (44:09.379)

Yeah, there's that thing going on and that character exists somewhere in here. But I also know he's an idiot, but he's the star of the show today in this song. and yeah, that can, that can be a big one. I find that a lot. And I've noticed that with people too, that, they're like, well, you know, I don't know if I want to put this one cause it's going here and there and tricky waters to navigate.

Amani Roberts (44:17.012)

Right.

Amani Roberts (44:35.714)

Yeah.

Yeah, but I would always urge people to just release it because the people that you think are thinking about you, they're not thinking about you. And so just put it out there because it can also really, really resonate with someone who needs to hear it. So don't don't let them. I forget the right word, but don't prevent them from having access to the song because you're worried about someone else who might not even be thinking about it. Yeah.

Brian Funk (44:43.641)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (44:48.421)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (44:58.137)

Yeah, so often the case. There's that old expression, like when I was a kid, I was worried what everyone thought about me. And when I was like an adult, I stopped caring. And then when I got old, realized no one was thinking about me in the first place. yeah. Right. I found the body of work a good way around that. Just flood it, put as much as out there. So you got

Amani Roberts (45:11.31)

Yeah, exactly. Yes. The sooner you realize that, the better. Yes.

Amani Roberts (45:21.554)

Mm-hmm. Yes. Keep creating, keep putting work out there and the bigger the body of work, the less you'll be worried about what people think because, you know, there'll be so much out there. You'll be so focused on putting more things out, you'll have less time to worry about it, think about it.

Brian Funk (45:41.348)

I wonder if you have some thoughts or approach on people. I see people like this sometimes, especially through Berkeley, because now they've paid money, right? Sometimes people that have paid money for lessons and consulting and all of that, they're very invested in it. And sometimes those are the people that produce and release the least amount of work. They're working at it all the time, but they'd never quite take it to the finish line.

It's like, yeah, obviously you're investing, you're spending a lot of time and money in this. So what's going on? that's, I think it's a case by case thing, but I wonder how you approach that, that kind of person.

Amani Roberts (46:16.365)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (46:23.138)

Yeah. Yeah, we like to call that like the art of finishing. And so I kind of put that as a parallel because you'll see a lot of people who will invest by these classes, they'll invest in equipment and they never take action. That happens a lot. they get out there so worried about buying the next, you know, amp or the best microphone or this new software or these new plugins.

Brian Funk (46:29.273)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (46:51.48)

but they never ever take action or they take action but never finish. They love to start a project and never finish. And this is also true in life. People will talk about, I need to lose weight. I need to eat better. I need to get a new job. You know, I need to stop talking to this person, but they never do it. Once again, fear, fear of the process, fear of failure. So I love to live by the mantra of done is better than perfect. So...

I really try to encourage and coach and work with my artists and my people to let's just finish something. Let's finish something, put it out, check it and move on to the next. I try to walk them along the way of... We try to set up in small steps. Say if we're writing a song, we're producing a song, we've written the lyrics, check. Let's come back tomorrow, let's write some harmony, check. Let's write some melody, good. Now let's maybe create and just look for a reference track.

That's all we're going to do today. We're going look for a reference track of what you want the song to sound like. OK, we got a couple. Good. Now let's try to sing and produce and add drums to it. And maybe one day we add drums. Let's add some strings another day. Now we're to sing vocals. Now let's sing the ad libs. I find if you if you divide things up into little steps, it's like we were smaller playing Super Mario Brothers and we go from one level to the next level to the next level. Same way we love the ways our brains are wired. We love accomplishing things. Love gamification.

So if we can set up like a game and like we have 20 steps to get to, let's go to level one, level two. Okay, we're pause level two. Let's go out and get your favorite cup of coffee from Starbucks. It could be a sweet mocha, whatever. That's good. We did that today. Then we come back. It could be the next day of next week. We do three, four and five. Okay, let's go to your favorite restaurant for breakfast. That a lot of things that I love around food, but maybe you get to level 10. Okay, now we can reward yourself. You can buy something. Just set up.

Brian Funk (48:21.796)

Hmm.

Amani Roberts (48:47.418)

small steps that are easy to accomplish that help you celebrate wins. You get a win, you're more encouraged to keep coming back and doing more. So I like to set that up with my people that I work with because it really keeps their inspiration high and their motivation high. And then we finish things and we just set up little games and do it that way. That's what I've seen, help people both finish and then help people take action. And I think those are the two things.

I just see more and more nowadays people just love to talk about doing something but never take action or they can't finish. That's what I do to help them along the process.

Brian Funk (49:27.522)

Yeah, well all that stuff feels like making progress. Like, I got the new mic and now it's going to sound great. Well, I got to learn how to use it now. So now I'm still, but I'm still being productive because I'm learning it, right? And well, if I had the mic and I probably need the amp or I need, so let me learn how to get this thing. And we're still doing stuff, but kind of not doing stuff at the same time. It's a sneaky thing.

Amani Roberts (49:32.512)

Ha ha ha.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta do this stuff and get things done for sure. Yeah.

Brian Funk (49:54.309)

But that's a nice approach. It's the kind of victory, it's a little bird by birdish, right? One step at a time. But you're also, like you said, highlighting those victories. Like, well, hey, look, we got to here. We did these, we did this, we did something today. We made progress. And it is important to point that out. Probably we would all love to show up one day and come out with the mastered

Amani Roberts (49:58.508)

Yeah, yeah, there you go. parallel. Nice callback. Nice callback there.

Brian Funk (50:24.16)

new number one hit, right? But the fact that you got the idea down, you got the maybe the sketch or maybe you got a new track layered. A friend of mine said this to me years ago. I think while I was working on the first solo album I ever made, he said, like, I know if each day I just record one part, eventually I'll have a finished album. And I kind of took that to heart. was like, okay.

Yeah, you're right, because I'm only going to put so many guitars. And at that time I didn't have infinite tracks. I was limited to, I think, like 16. So it's like, all right, yeah, that's 16 days. Right? And then that's two a month, kind of.

Amani Roberts (50:58.518)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (51:05.368)

There you go. Yep. Yep. There we go. That's 24 a year. I found that many of my artists, the songs that they finish that they don't like, a lot of people like it. Like for some reason the public will like it. And so that's what you'll hear a lot with artists. The songs that they think are going to be the best singles end up not being the best singles, but the songs that they kind of discounted end up being like really, really good songs that people love.

Brian Funk (51:11.95)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (51:33.922)

So that's why it's more important than ever to just release it. You never know. You could not like it, but it could really resonate with your fans or a certain people, certain group of people, and then you're off and running.

Brian Funk (51:43.909)

And like you said, it's almost wrong not to share it because there might be that person that really needs it. Yeah, maybe I was not connecting with it completely, but it hit on something for someone else. Sometimes too, you listen back to your old stuff and you're like, wow. I was like looking in the future here because this is where I'm at now.

Amani Roberts (51:48.408)

Yes. Yes.

Amani Roberts (51:56.928)

Absolutely.

Amani Roberts (52:04.536)

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Brian Funk (52:06.5)

At that point though, when I start getting in my head, creating and thinking like, this any good? Like, no, this chords are kind of basic and you know, I need to be more clever. I think sometimes to those artists, they don't even know when they're doing it in the moment anyway. They didn't think that was going to be the hit song. So even when you're actually doing it, you don't know. So it's almost pointless to even think about.

Amani Roberts (52:23.523)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (52:29.996)

Yeah. If we looked at the B-sides of singles, particularly back in the day, the B-sides of singles that ended up being bigger than the single, we could write encyclopedias. There's so many. Yes, there's so many. That's the beauty of back in the day, the B-sides. Nowadays, we have less B-sides because they just release things singly, but even some of the more hidden tracks on an EP could end up blowing up years later. Just look at Pink Pony Club. This song came out in April of 2020.

Brian Funk (52:36.515)

Hmm.

Some DJ just flipped it over.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (52:58.976)

It took that song five years, but then it kind of blew up and hit got a billion streams. Like the record label saw it wasn't doing well in five months and dropped her. They kept working the song and five years later, it really kind of hit the stratosphere. That's that's a good example of. What happens sometimes?

Brian Funk (53:19.534)

Yeah, I didn't know that. yeah, it was like one day, Chappelle Rowan, who is this pink pony? Like, why is everyone talking about this? Where did this come from? And I figured it just came out.

Amani Roberts (53:29.996)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's what many people think. Like I have this video. It was on social media. I use it in my speeches. It kind of the close out this portion of the story. It shows her. think she was at Auburn, Auburn University, and she was playing her Casio keyboard and singing that song about 40 or 50 people. People weren't paying attention to her. Then it fast forward to when she's singing that song at Lollapalooza. hundred fifty thousand people in Chicago and the crowd is chanting and everything.

And it's just an amazing, you get goosebumps when you watch it. It's an amazing video. And that just shows you the progress. And that was five years. It took more than five years.

Brian Funk (54:07.959)

Yeah, that is wild. One of my favorite things about YouTube is you can go back and look at the artists like before they were big. This video I watched recently of Rage Against the Machine playing at like just a fair, you know, like no one's there really. And you're just like, whoa, like, like how do they not know this is, but no one knew yet. it was, the fuse was lit and it was getting close to the bomb, but it just hadn't gone off yet.

Amani Roberts (54:15.511)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (54:19.707)

nice. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (54:28.824)

No one knew, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:36.749)

but you see everything is in place. There's a lot of good stuff of seeing artists just before and in hindsight you can recognize, course, look at this, but in those moments, and it's like, guess, five years is a long time, but ask Edgar Allan Poe, right? Like he didn't even get it in his lifetime.

Amani Roberts (54:48.142)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Amani Roberts (54:59.918)

Yes. Five years is not really, when you're looking at the, it's not really a long time. Like I think what's the saying, I heard Tony Robbins say this one time, people, I want to say they overestimate what they can do in a year, but underestimate what they can do in 10. I think that's the saying. And so that's very similar to, I wonder who said that because that has to be someone, I'll have to Google that. So you said that, but it's very true. Very true. Yeah.

Brian Funk (55:06.083)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (55:17.175)

Something like that, yeah.

Brian Funk (55:26.785)

Yeah, I've heard that sentiment that it's like compound interest or something kind of applies that way too. You think you're not making any money saving. Don't take financial advice from me because I'm not investing anything in anything, but I've heard people say that's how it works.

Amani Roberts (55:31.352)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (55:36.46)

Yeah.

Hahaha!

Yeah, but if you think remember the whole thing is if you you get a penny a day it compounds and soon you have like a million dollars. I think a penny a day over 30 days or something is there's some some math you double it every day.

Brian Funk (55:52.483)

Yeah, it double letters, Tomorrow I get two, tomorrow, next I get four.

Amani Roberts (55:58.488)

for after the end of 30 days, you have like a lot of money, I want to say.

Brian Funk (56:03.605)

I remember learning that in grade school and then asking my parents, hey, instead of like my a dollar a week allowance, what if you just gave me a penny every day and then the next day gave me two? They're like, get out of here.

Amani Roberts (56:14.168)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. When back then it could have helped, you know. Could have bought you another amp. well said, well said. Yeah, we don't want that. Maybe no amp then, no amp.

Brian Funk (56:22.328)

Yeah.

Then I'd have to learn that amp. good, then I can avoid the scary stuff.

Yeah, I'm a big believer these days in working real fast too, for this reason, just to accumulate that body of work and things. I like not giving myself the time to really question things. Just make, make, make, make, make, make, make. I definitely think there's something to be said of spending your time and crafting something. I just really find I am often...

going through that process, know, of going through all the levels of Super Mario Brothers as often as possible. I think, I'm sure you could get through that first level of Super Mario Brothers with your eyes closed. If you played at all. I've had my high school students play that game and they've run right into the first bad guy. like, what? Like, person I know my age is laughing at you, right?

Amani Roberts (57:06.264)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (57:15.907)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (57:22.75)

nice.

Amani Roberts (57:26.082)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (57:30.04)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (57:32.27)

But we've done that so many times, but you get to that last level and it's much harder. know, things get tricky and it's like in music and creating something is we don't get to that last level until the end. And if we don't get to the end, we never exercise that muscle and we don't get good at it. But when I, when I'm working fast and I'm doing that consistently, like I get in a flow and like that last level is as easy as that first part.

Amani Roberts (57:48.12)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (58:00.174)

jump right over that bad guy in the beginning just like I do the final boss, you know?

Amani Roberts (58:00.73)

Yeah, there you go. Yes, and you saved the princess, yes. But repetition helps, you've done it so much, it's like a strong muscle now.

Brian Funk (58:06.573)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:13.091)

But it's like a muscle because as soon as you miss a day at the gym, you're going backwards now. think you just that the treadmill is always going.

Amani Roberts (58:18.307)

death.

You gotta keep, yep, you gotta keep working the muscle, just like creativity. Just like creativity is a muscle, you gotta keep working that too, otherwise you'll become stagnant.

Brian Funk (58:31.837)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. How do you like the world as a writer? You got a couple of books and there's a nice form of torture you put yourself through, Writing is another dimension of hell.

Amani Roberts (58:33.166)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (58:38.626)

Ha

Amani Roberts (58:42.49)

yes, that is not only writing is torture, but then the whole releasing of the book process. Like when you finish writing it, you're only a third of the way done because then you have to do all the editing. Then you have to release the book. Then you have to promote the book. And that doesn't end for years. So the first time my first book writing really kind of tripped me up because when I got my first edits, I took it very personal and it.

cost me about four or five months in the process where I just put it down and didn't even want to look at it. As a result, my book came out in April 2020 in middle of pandemic. Whereas if I had checked my ego, maybe it would have come out sooner. I could have had a little bit more success early on. That was a very valuable lesson because when my second book came around, which took me an overall four and a half years to do the research and writing and finish and release, when I got the edits back, I did them right away. Check my ego, said, okay, I trust you. I believe you. What do need to do?

made the edits, which were significant, added what I needed to add and kept the process going. I suffered everything we've talked about today. I suffered through writing the second book, Imposter Syndrome. Who am I to write a book about R &B groups when there are many, many, many people out there who are more knowledgeable than me? Who am I to call it the quiet storm when that's like a celebrated radio format, but it actually worked out good that I called it that? Just all sorts of things. Fear. What if no one buys the book?

What if I don't? These are metrics that aren't really important, but what if I don't get on the USA Today Best Seller list? That really caught me up for the last month because I was working really hard, texting people, messaging, doing press on TV, podcast interviews. What if I'm doing all this work and I don't make the list? What if I do all this work and it's a flop? Even still, I just kept at it. I said, okay, I acknowledge it. Just keep at it. I had good people around me supporting me too.

That's another thing in the creative process. If you have people around you that aren't good for your creativity, it will stop you. I remember for me, I had someone around me I was dating that was not good for my creativity. I had to get away from that person and eliminate that person from my life so that I could keep the creativity and start back again. It took me about a good year, year and a half. In that four and a half years from the time I...

Amani Roberts (01:01:06.605)

I finished my thesis, which was December 2021. Then for me to start writing again, I went to a wedding in Chicago, I want to say it was summer of 2023. In that time period, I had written a little bit, I probably got 20 or 30 % of the work done just in that 2022 to 2023 time process, but I was stuck.

So then I got that person out of my life. Then I went on this writing retreat. So I went to the wedding a week early, Minnesota, the wedding was in Chicago, and I wrote for all week and probably finished 60 % of that book at that time period. And that was the ignition to really keep me off and running. I finished the rest at home, sent it to editing, the whole editing process and all that. So by the time I sent it to editing, was probably April or May of 2024. And we went through the process of the cover design.

adding in some other items. I wanted it to come out in Black History Month. In February 2025, the book came out. That was my journey. That's why writing can be very torturous depending on what's going on in your life and how you prioritize.

Brian Funk (01:02:20.546)

I got a couple of quick questions on that.

Amani Roberts (01:02:24.43)

Talk to me!

Brian Funk (01:02:28.456)

Okay. just for probably humorous sake, when you got your edits back, how much, most of it is probably cutting it out, right? Like too much, too much. How much of, how much did you submit and how much did you receive back? How many pages or word count or something like that?

Amani Roberts (01:02:43.886)

Great question. Okay. For this book here, I had turned it 131,000 words, approximately. That's a lot of words. They cut it, yes, yes. Yes, yes, you get it, you get it. They cut it down to probably about, yeah. They cut it down to probably about 82,000 words.

Brian Funk (01:02:53.364)

And you wrote, typed every one of them, right? So you care about them all. Yeah. You push that keyboard a million times to make that.

Brian Funk (01:03:08.106)

Okay, so that's what? That's almost like 30, 40%.

Amani Roberts (01:03:11.95)

That's right. They cut it about 30%, 35%. What happened is that I had included lyrics in the book and you can't do that. You need the rights to include lyrics. I didn't have them. They cut that down, but then I added back certain sections that were missing. It came back up to about 89, 90,000 words. It's like a 500-word book. The book is pretty... You can see how thick it is. The book is pretty thick here. On the camera, you see how thick this book is. It's not a little book. That was this one here. It was 90,000 words for 131. My first book...

Brian Funk (01:03:34.85)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (01:03:41.166)

I think I turned like 54,000 words. They cut it down to 27, almost half, 30, maybe 30,000. And then I added back to six, it was probably about 35,000 for the first book. So that's kind of what I turned in to what ended up being the final product. But it's beautiful. The editors were right. It works. I have no regrets.

Brian Funk (01:04:03.234)

Well, that's an outside perspective of somebody who didn't push the buttons on the keyboard over and over again, right? So they can be brutal. They can be real and objective. Whereas we get a little bit, I think it's like music too, you you hear a lot of groups writing, we wrote 50 songs for this record and we got 10 or whatever.

Amani Roberts (01:04:08.364)

Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:28.492)

but it is a little tough when you're the one. It's even tracks in a song. got this track, this song has 80 tracks and I love them all. know, I programmed them all. then sometimes someone else listens, they're like, why don't you just take that out? This would be better without those 20 tracks. And you're like, what? I've had that feeling with my band doing vocals and getting these cool effects. And they're like, what would it sound like if you took all those effects off? I'm like.

Amani Roberts (01:04:36.716)

Yeah, yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:04:42.328)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:04:55.682)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:56.002)

That's not gonna be possible guys. That's three days of work and then they were right. You're like, So you have to, you definitely have to, guess, like you said, check your ego and also just see that nothing's really precious. You you cut it out and sometimes less is more. Okay.

Amani Roberts (01:04:59.48)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:05:02.786)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:05:17.314)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amen. Mm hmm. Preach. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:25.452)

then the other thing I wanted to ask you too is kind of a funny thing like that. I'm forgetting what I wanted to say now. It was a good one for you.

Amani Roberts (01:05:34.638)

So was it about, so you asked me the questions about cutting the words out. Was it about like getting people, was it about the writing retreat? Was it about getting people, okay.

Brian Funk (01:05:38.432)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:05:42.772)

It was about the writing retreat actually, yes. What was it about the writing retreat that was able to help you to get going? like, what are you doing in a writing retreat anyway? Like, what are the, is it activities? Is it just sit in a room?

Amani Roberts (01:05:57.612)

Yeah, yeah. like in my office, of course, of course, I get it. In my office, I would have these screens up. I'd have, you know, the phone around. I'd be around where there's lots of easy distractions. When I took myself away from my office, so there no distractions. you know, didn't have my dog to worry about. I was in a place where I knew no one. I just had to go somewhere to get meals. It's isolation. So you don't have to go from California to Minnesota. You can go on a staycation where it's very difficult for you to

Brian Funk (01:05:59.916)

Thank you.

Amani Roberts (01:06:27.118)

get distracted by everyday things or notifications. So that was the first thing. I would use the Pomodoro method where I would write for 20 minutes, then take a five minute break. And I would do that morning, then I'd go somewhere for lunch. I'd come back, I'd do that in the afternoon, take a break, go for a walk, finish out a little bit, then dinner. And it was just that routine with no distractions. And there's like, like I'm not in a big city where, oh, I can go see my friend Jeremy, I can go see my friend Eric or Josh or...

Teen or whatever, like no distractions and no temptations. So I was just focused on writing. was able to go walk, get a little sunlight. Although it was kind of chilly even in July for Minnesota. And it was just the elimination of almost all distractions. And that's what was really beneficial. Yes. Solo trip. Yes. Yes. Like I flew from LA to Minneapolis. I then took another flight from Minneapolis to Duluth.

Brian Funk (01:07:13.312)

Were you alone? it some kind of, okay, so this was like a self-imposed, okay, right.

Amani Roberts (01:07:26.112)

I drove from Duluth, Minnesota two hours to Grand Marais, Minnesota right on Lake Superior and went to an Airbnb. And so I was far from anything and anybody. It was like a little town. And so then I would go down to the town center to eat my meals and that was it.

Brian Funk (01:07:42.38)

Hmm. So by this time you'd already written one. So you understood how things get in the way. Yeah. No, it's very true. And, especially for us producing music on computers or typing on computers, the entire human collection of knowledge is at your fingertips. It's so tempting and you can trick yourself into being like, well, I'll just look up how to like use this device that I'm playing around.

Amani Roberts (01:07:48.268)

Yeah. Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:08:02.829)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:09.963)

The next thing you know, you're watching dogs, you know, running in circles, chasing their tails. And you don't know where you got here and what time is it. Yeah. Okay. mean, it's true. it's, I think there's been a big movement in musicians to get these like kind of groove box type things that are not connected to a screen or a computer. And people like that a lot because you're not, you're not like that.

Amani Roberts (01:08:12.2)

Exactly. You're down the rabbit hole. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:39.137)

you know, a little mouse movement and a click away from the floodgates of entertainment and distraction. Yeah, that's, that's, I know you're right because I've watched all of these little routines in my life creep in, checking my email, certain websites I like to look at, the news, the...

Amani Roberts (01:08:40.696)

Yes, yes, it's dangerous.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, dangerous.

Brian Funk (01:09:03.711)

YouTube, let's see who published a new video I can learn something from. And the education part is brutal. It's such a false thing in that you think you're working towards something, but you're just hiding from it. Of course it's important to learn stuff, but it's so much more important to learn it by doing it.

Amani Roberts (01:09:18.924)

Yeah, I agree.

Amani Roberts (01:09:27.586)

Yes, action, doing. Action is the key.

Brian Funk (01:09:29.365)

Yeah. Cause that it's so passive. You're just watching someone, yeah, I like what they did. And I could do that one day. Hmm. you know, I would love to do that actually sometime. just that's like kind of a, there's so many great albums that have been made that way too. you see stories of artists going away and just dropping off. It's also,

Amani Roberts (01:09:37.912)

Yeah. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:09:51.17)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:09:59.466)

Maybe in some way too it could be a little bit of a...

Like you don't need to do that, right? You can also discipline yourself. Like you said, you don't have to fly across the country, but maybe on occasion, it's not a bad idea. I forget what an author, I don't know if it was Toni Morrison or somebody who would go in a hotel room and just, is it Maya Angelou?

Amani Roberts (01:10:15.896)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:10:27.826)

Maya Angelou. She would go to a hotel room. She would take a bottle of sherry, a Bible, and sit there and write. And a hotel room, yes. Nothing to do but a bottle of sherry, a Bible, and just write. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:37.855)

In a hotel room, like, nothing to do, yeah. Not exciting.

Brian Funk (01:10:46.441)

Hmm. Yeah. That's pretty cool. You just sort of force yourself. And I'm sure you probably face some demons in there, right? Was it ever hard to just... Was it hard to get into that routine? Hard to stick to that routine?

Amani Roberts (01:10:56.792)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:11:05.28)

Yeah, well, by the time I knew I was struggling, so that's why I really made the effort to go on the writing retreat because prior to that I was struggling. It was hard to into the routine, too many distractions, starting, stopping.

Brian Funk (01:11:16.363)

Did you say a week? Is that what you said? It was a week long?

Amani Roberts (01:11:18.73)

Yeah, like five days, four nights. It was like five days, four nights of just writing. Before that, it was really, really difficult to get in the routine. I was struggling, so I had to do something. Yes, that was my answer to that issue, that challenge.

Brian Funk (01:11:32.556)

Hmm. See, I face this a lot when we as teachers go on summer vacation and it's like, I got all this time. I'm going to do everything. And you wind up just kind of wasting a lot because you feel like you have too much. and I think maybe five days is a little bit more nice, tighter timeframe, you know, cause you can't, you can't say like next week or tomorrow is.

Amani Roberts (01:11:38.978)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:11:46.232)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:11:55.18)

Yeah. Bye.

No, no, It was go time. Then I came back. I still had about 15 % left to do, but I was able to get that done because I was so encouraged by the progress I made that I was able to come back and finish and turn the first draft in. Then you get first edits and all things, but that was the first domino. Once you turn the first draft in, majority of writing is basically done. You might have to make edits, but that was really, really important to get me to the next step.

If I had not taken that trip, I don't know, I don't think the book would have been out last year. It might still have been a while.

Brian Funk (01:12:35.433)

Yeah, we gave yourself a really big victory and that can, yeah, those get you going. Like when you start to feel it and see it coming together. It's similar. It's the other side of the coin of when you stop and you start taking time off and it feels impossible to get back to it.

Amani Roberts (01:12:38.784)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:12:43.992)

Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:12:55.916)

Yeah, because you know in teacher world we look up and it's already August, time to go back to school. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:00.991)

Yeah, it is. And you're like, damn, I was going to make three albums this summer. All I did was like eat popcorn and watch TV. Hmm. That's cool stuff. I got to imagine it's a pretty cool experience to be one of your students, to be in your workshops and get some consultation from you because you have a real

Amani Roberts (01:13:05.108)

Yes.

Yes. Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:13:26.466)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:30.611)

welcoming, friendly, encouraging disposition to you that really comes, it comes through an online, but especially in speaking with you. You make it feel like it's not impossible because sometimes it does. Sometimes it's like, does anyone do anything? know? So where can we tell people to go? Where do you like to send them so that they can start finding some of your work, getting into some of the coaching maybe or.

Amani Roberts (01:13:35.096)

Thank you.

Amani Roberts (01:13:38.574)

Thank you.

Amani Roberts (01:13:44.12)

Mm-hmm.

Amani Roberts (01:13:54.893)

Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:13:59.64)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:59.713)

Even the books.

Amani Roberts (01:14:02.136)

Yeah, for coaching, you go to my website, AmaniExperience.com backslash call. You can send me a note and we can get on a free call and talk about it. My website has all the information, AmaniExperience.com. You can also go backslash coaching. That's where you can see the coaching program. I share my videos about book and facts and stuff on Instagram and a little bit on TikTok. I'm really probably the most active on LinkedIn.

I like to direct people to the website and then you can pick where you want to go from there. You can set up a call. We can get on the phone and talk. I can learn more about you. You can learn more about me. There's a tab for the book there. You can also get the book Amazon, wherever, The Quiet Storm by me. Those are the places where I live and hang out. Join my email list, all the things.

Brian Funk (01:14:54.1)

Yeah. And, you know, I'm on site now and I can see you've got all those links easy to find in the top. You're practicing what you preach. didn't say, find me on Instagram, because Instagram could change. Instagram could disappear, get bought out or suddenly fall out of favor. And now all your followers are gone and you lost touch. So you did send them to your site, which is cool.

Amani Roberts (01:14:59.618)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, thank you. I'm trying, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Amani Roberts (01:15:14.166)

Yes. Yes.

Brian Funk (01:15:18.112)

Yeah, it's nicely laid out, so it is pretty easy to find everything there. And I noticed you got the quiz too, so that's sort of a little bit of a hook. I didn't take it. I just, I didn't see it the first time I was here, so.

Amani Roberts (01:15:25.836)

Yes, did you take it? Yes, take the-

Yeah, I know. know. Take the quiz. Let me know what army group you are. It'll be like a personality personality. That's a fun thing. I use that during my book launch to grow my email list. So that was my lead magnet. If I'm being honest, I should have promoted it more because it's very popular. People love it when they take it. I still use it. And that's one example I show my artists like this is how I grew my email list. You could do this. You can do.

Brian Funk (01:15:34.858)

Yeah, what R &B group you are. Yeah, that's fun.

Brian Funk (01:15:41.812)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Amani Roberts (01:15:57.422)

I love giving away acoustic songs, acoustic versions of songs or unreleased music that's very popular. So I try to practice what I preach as you said, absolutely. And always refining and trying to make it better.

Brian Funk (01:16:05.3)

Hmm. Yeah. That's evident.

Right. Yeah. You don't ever get there, right? You're always on the journey. We're always that, that making it concept is kind of wrong, I think, you know? So yeah, it's great stuff. I love the world you've created here and really nice to talk to you. And maybe we'll have to touch base again sometime.

Amani Roberts (01:16:12.654)

Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:16:19.63)

Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Amani Roberts (01:16:27.63)

Thank you.

Amani Roberts (01:16:32.842)

Absolutely. I'm a big fan of yours. I follow all your videos and things for a long time I know that kind of they make changes with like patreon and Dropbox where you weren't able to do what you were to do before but I've been following your content for a long time. So thank you to you as well Yeah

Brian Funk (01:16:47.309)

Thanks. Well cool. So go to AmaniExperience.com. Thank you everyone for listening.

Amani Roberts (01:16:54.702)

Thanks for having me.

After 6 years of the Jamuary challenge, I’ve learned that the secret to finishing more music isn't a new plugin or more music theory; it’s about moving from a romanticized "Artist" identity to a prolific "Maker" mindset.

In this episode, we discuss: 

The "Quantity Over Quality" Hack: Why having a routine allows you to fail safely.

The Skills of Finishing: Why completing "bad" music is the only way to prepare for your best work.

Learning by Doing: How to escape the "Tutorial Junkie" cycle and get your hands dirty.

Killing the "Artist" Label: Why viewing your work as a "body of work" is more freeing than chasing a single masterpiece. Stop overthinking, start creating, and let’s get those ideas out of your DAW and into the world. 

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Brian Funk

Episode Transcript:

(00:00.000)

I wonder if you feel this way too. The more music I make, the more I learn, the more theory I understand, the more gear I get, and the more I learn about that gear, the harder it gets to make music. Most things in life are easier the more you do them. Driving a car, riding a bike, cleaning the house, whatever. And those things become second nature. But making music is different. I find myself getting stuck, unable to make decisions. I worry if my music is any good, I wonder...

If I'm getting any better, think about how my music compares to other people's and probably most of all, I hesitate to even start. I resist taking those first steps, feeling paralyzed by infinite directions that I could go with my music. I can't decide on what kind of music to make and I'm left feeling, I don't think it's uninspired, but unable to take any of those directions. I worry about self-expression and what I'm doing.

If it accurately encapsulates who I am as an artist, I stop having fun. And I thought I loved making music. I spent January making a piece of music every day for the January challenge. And for the sixth year in a row, I managed to show up and make something every day of the month. And as usual, it wasn't easy. And for the majority of the days this year, I kind of waited till the last possible minute to start.

but I think I learned a couple of valuable lessons about making music and the mental challenges that come with it. In this episode of the Music Production Podcast, I want to have a conversation about five things I struggle with that get in the way of my music making and how we can change our thinking and approach so that we can make more music and have more fun doing it. These are mostly in the order that I encounter them in the music making process, but the last one is kind of a class of its own and deserves special attention.

There's the problem of getting started. The first thing to realize is that making music is different than most of the things we do each day. There's no guarantee of success. Like, I don't know if I'm going to make anything good, that I'll like it or anyone else will ever want to hear it. And I think this is why I often put it off until the very end of the day by doing things that I enjoy much less. I complete chores, vacuum, sweep, prepare meals, clean, errands, rearrange the studio.

(02:21.145)

And all of this stuff will get done, put in the time and it will be finished. And you can have that little bit of satisfaction at making something and completing something, but making music might not go well. First of all, you have to decide what you're even gonna make in the first place. And this is where I often get stuck. And also why I don't think the problem is a lack of inspiration because I wanna make a billion styles of music. I wanna make singer songwriter stuff, rock band music.

Hip-hop, EDM, IDM, experimental ambient, but any choice I make leaves behind all those other possibilities. And if it doesn't get off to a great start right away, I start questioning whether I should have maybe made something else. And that stresses me out. So I do the dishes because I don't have to decide which dishes to do. I just do them and they're done and I can pat myself on the back for it. I think the best way around this issue is quantity.

Having a regular routine of music making allows me to pick something today knowing that I can pick something else tomorrow. If I don't have to lament the path I chose because I can take a different path tomorrow, I feel better about it. So by staying regular and consistent, I allow myself to go down different musical paths and be okay with it not working out so well. If I'm showing up all the time, then I can afford like a fruitless session. It takes a lot of the pressure off.

Making it routine removes the question of if or when I will even make music. The time arrives and I start. Put it in the calendar. Keep it like any other appointment. This can help me to get started. And even though during January I did wait till the last minute, the fact that I knew I was doing something and I knew I'd be doing something tomorrow helped me get started and helped me actually see ideas through. After getting started, there's the worrying about making something good.

Of course we want to make something we consider good and it'd be amazing if everyone agreed but worrying about this will only cause frustration We can't control what other people will think It's like being angry about the weather. It's wasted energy and completely out of our control It also robs us of the joy of creating The actual act of making something is fun and exciting Watch kids. They have that. Beginners have it too. They don't expect the product to be anything amazing

(04:45.966)

They just enjoy the making of it. I think this is feeling we all fall in love with and we have to remember to embrace it while we're working. Getting too judgmental in the early stages robs us of this. The whole point of pursuing music is the fact that it's fun. If we're doing it for other reasons like success, money, or adulation, it's kind of a stupid choice. There are all kinds of secure jobs that you might not love but will pay you well.

And if you want likes and thumbs up, get a dog or a cat and post videos of the cute things it does. But don't strip the fun out of music making by trying to make it into success and focusing on the uncontrollable thoughts of people you don't even know. The funny thing about it is so much hit music that artists make, they don't even know it was happening when they were doing it anyway. Countless artists never expected that song to be the hit. So when you're making something, it's best not to worry about how good it is because you kind of don't even know.

Instead, focus on making the process as much fun as possible. And ironically, that fun will likely translate into the music, and that's the exact type of stuff people will pick up on. There are some benefits of making bad music. First, you gotta give your ideas a chance. There's really no way to know if something's any good until it's finished anyway. If I'm judging my music too much while I'm making it, I'll always find something I don't like or something I'm uncomfortable with, and that's because it's not finished yet. If I go down this way of thinking too much,

I'm not making music anymore. I'm just worrying if what I'm making is any good. I'm out of the moment. But there are a couple things, some nice benefits that we get when we allow ourselves the freedom to make bad music. First, if you abandon a track before it's done, you never get to the end. And finishing music itself is a skill. By following through on even bad music, you're getting the practice of finishing. And since finishing is the last stage of the process,

It's the part we get the least amount of practice with. So learning the skill of finishing will prepare us for when we have something we really love. We'll know how to bring it to completion. Second, we learn from our mistakes. Many athletes achieve greatness only after failure, and that's because they've learned what to work on and how to improve it. If we're never challenged, we never get to do any reflection on our process. Listening back to our music teaches us more than any book or tutorial ever could.

(07:07.641)

You'll be able to identify problems and mistakes, discover ways to fix them. It's much better to do that with bad music than to have music we love never reach its potential because we never learned how to finish from our mistakes. Third, we learn how to salvage ideas and fix them. Listening back to my Jamio jams, I'm kind of surprised that some of my favorite pieces of the month were the ones I almost abandoned halfway. As we continue to work on our music, we make decisions based on our own taste.

And as we go through the process, we'll probably make decisions that are pretty good along the way that we like. And we might never encounter those decisions if we didn't continue working on the project. We might figure out new ways to make a boring chord progression more exciting, or clever techniques to make up for bad recordings. But these are lessons we can only learn if we continue down the path the song is leading in order to encounter them. Let it be okay to make bad music.

Then there's trying to master everything before beginning. So over the years, I've spoken a lot about how new gear isn't going to be the secret to making great music. And again and again, I thought some new piece of equipment was going to finally enable me to make my hits and make all the music I imagined in my head. Even though there are some things that have helped me grow and improve, most of the time, it's a false hope. I've learned this

time and time again, and I'm much more cautious about buying new gear or plugins without any delusions that'll make me a better producer. But I've replaced that with learning. I've become like a tutorial junkie. I'll scour YouTube for new techniques, how-to videos, productivity advice. I watch tutorials and stuff I know well with the hope that maybe some small new piece of knowledge will take me to the next level.

You can learn anything these days and it's so tempting to try to find new information or learn skills. It's irresistible, but there's no learning like doing. The point is to actually make stuff, not to learn tools and techniques. That should be the by-product of creating. It's the act of doing that teaches us, not just studying about it. To give you a sense of how I've learned this over and over again.

(09:17.795)

Back in the early 2000s, I got my first decent recording set up, a pair of Alesis ADAT machines. And these were a huge step up for my cassette tape four track recorder. So I started learning a little bit about microphones, EQs, compressors, started focusing on all the learning and figured, learned about mic placement. I record drums and guitars over and over, just experimenting where the mics go, turning them, moving them further or closer, trying out these effects that I got.

but I wasn't really making music, I was just recording. And after a little while passed, I had no music to show for all the time I was spending making music. I kind of realized that even if I did everything completely wrong, it would still sound way better than my four track recorder would. So I decided not to worry about it. I just record the songs and see what happened. Doing this gave me a lot of learning, but in context.

I realized the right way to do something depends on what you're trying to accomplish. So I'd listen back to what I had and make decisions based on that. After songs were done, I could reflect on the process and see what went well and what I could do differently next time. If I had some guitars that were close mic'd really nicely, I realized sometimes it's nice to not mic them the same way and try something different so that they stand out in the mix. All of this happened because I had the context of doing it and I was having more fun and I was being more productive.

A months later I had a full album. It was so much more fun learning along the way than trying to learn everything first. Plus I actually had something to show for it. You can't learn everything first. Today it's even more true. Our modern DAWs and even the cheaper studio gear all sound amazing compared to what we had 20 years ago. We can create recklessly and make tons of mistakes and the gear is very forgiving. Creating and learning along the way gives us the context to understand why we make decisions with our gear.

It doesn't matter how great the synth bass you programmed for two weeks sounds on its own. It matters how it sounds within the mix, with the music. You can't learn what to do with a muddy mix until you create a muddy mix and realize what went wrong. And this is where the learning happens. You can't learn how to drive a car by reading a book about driving cars. You have to do it. You can't get in shape by watching tutorials about working out. You have to work out. Then you can start to learn and apply the things you've learned as you go.

(11:38.668)

One thing I've learned by speaking to so many amazing musicians on this podcast is that the best ones never stop learning, but they learn by doing. There's no end to the learning. It's an infinite rabbit hole. So there's no point to try to master anything before starting. Anyway, you'll be learning forever and never doing anything. So this last lesson is probably the biggest one for me lately. It's to stop trying to be an artist.

We've romanticized the idea of being an artist. We think of them as people with special gifts that act on moments of passion and inspiration to express themselves and reveal their souls to the world. But even the word inspiration has its roots in receiving the breath from a divine God. And art can be so magical and deep that it can make us believe that the artist must have been chosen by some immortal creator. But in reality, it's much more like a craft than a skill we continually develop.

But this way of thinking tends to affect how we create. If I find myself trying to write something meaningful, clever, or special, I almost always fail. I start to identify too much with what I'm creating and feel the need to encapsulate my entire being in some form of self-expression. But there's too many sides to a person and too many of those sides are contradictory. Trying to wrap up your entire persona and emotional depth in a single piece of music is impossible.

It causes too much self-analysis and it gets us thinking too much about how we'll be perceived through our art. I find myself struggling with music because I worry about how people might psychoanalyze me through it. But the truth is, you're not your art. The art may reflect a part of you or might not. It may be a distortion of you, might be an exaggeration. You can explore perspectives you don't agree with in your art. It can be nothing more than a collection of ideas placed together for the listener to apply their own meanings to.

Worrying about being an artist in this way has almost never served me. I think the true picture of a creator comes with a body of work more than a single piece. And this way of thinking is freeing. If I'm too worried about what I'm working on and how it'll be perceived, knowing that whatever I'm currently working on is just a single stroke on the larger canvas, that helps me move forward. I can be silly today and serious tomorrow.

(14:01.505)

I can explore passing thoughts and feelings without letting them define me. I can take on characters and personas that may or may not reflect some side of me. Focusing on contributing to my body of work is much more fun and enjoyable than trying to sum it all up in one great moment of divine inspiration. The picture of who you are as an artist becomes clear as your work accumulates, not in single strokes of the brush.

The more you put out there, the more dimensions of yourself you can show and the more accurate the picture is. You gotta be prolific, make more and don't worry about being an artist. Unfortunately, this is not gonna get easier though. I've come to understand these issues in my music making. I see it in my friends and my students all the time, but an intellectual understanding of it isn't enough. Those things have to be conquered.

every single time. It's a necessary part of the process. And at times it's a battle. But this is the stuff that makes making music so special. If it was easy, it would get boring. This never ending challenge is where the magic is. Every time we cross the finish line is a victory. Doesn't matter what place we come in. All we can really do is take with us the knowledge that we've done it before. And the next time around with the challenge again,

We know we've been here, we've done it, we've made it through and we can probably do it again. And that's where the thrill is and that's why there's glory in it. What types of things do you struggle with in your music making? Do you have any tips that I might've missed? What advice can you share from your experience? I'd love to know. I could use all the help I can get.

Drums Synths
Ableton Live Pack

Ableton Live Drum Rack made with the Drum Synths devices. Each pad contains a Drum Synth and effects built into complex Instrument Racks, complete with Macro Controls and Presets. Hit the Rand button to instantly create all new drum sounds.

*Requires Ableton Live 12.3 Suite or Above.

Free Version Includes:

• BF Drum Synths Drum Rack

• 10 one-shot drum samples

Music Production Club Edition Includes:

• BF Drum Synths Drum Rack

• 8 Drum Synth Instrument Racks

• 50 one-shot drum samples

• Alien Space Voice Instrument Rack

Drum Synths Drum Rack

The Drum Synths Drum Rack is made up of Ableton’s Drum Synth devices.

The Drum Rack includes Lo-Fi Vibe and Drum Buss Macro Controls to add character to the entire drum kit.

Drum Synth Instrument Racks

Each Drum Rack Pad contains an Instrument Rack with the Drum Synth, FX, and Customizable Macro Controls. Easily alter your drum sounds or use the included Macro Presets. Hit the Rand button at the top of the Instrument Rack to create new drum sounds!

The individual Instrument Rack Presets are included with the Music Production Club Edition.

One-Shot Drum Samples

I’ve created a collection of one-shot samples from the Drum Synth Instrument Racks. Use them in any DAW or any sampler of your choice! These samples are perfect for Ableton Move!

Free Edition contains 10 samples. The Music Production Club Edition contains 50 samples.

Alien Space Voice Instrument Rack

The Alien Space Voice Instrument is made from a process sample of my voice and an assortment of Live effects and modulation devices. There are 16 Macros to customize the sound, and 8 Macro Presets to instantly dial in new sounds.

Join the Music Production Club!

The Music Production Club is the best way to keep up with my latest work and to join a community of supportive music-makers.

Your membership gives you access to:

• My Newest Creations - You’ll receive my latest music-making tools as soon as I finish them.

• The Monthly Music Mission - Each month you get a music-making mission and the tools, techniques, and community support you need to complete it.

• Live Meetings Over Zoom - Meet with me and the MPC community online! Make music together, share tips and techniques, and give and receive feedback on your music.

• Music Production Club Exclusives - Ableton Live Packs, Templates, Samples, Presets, and more that are only available to members of the MPC.

• Educational Materials - My Video Course, Books, and Documents to help you level up your music.

• Our Online Community - Share your music with and get support from our thriving Discord community. and Monthly Live Meetings over Zoom.

• Bonus Materials - Free stuff from my store as well as gifts from some musical friends!

• Special Offers - MPC members get 50% off at my store and special discounts from music companies.

Matt and I spoke in depth about the creative process and how he makes music. He shared his 5 I’s of Ideation workflow, as well as how he helps students turn their ideas into finished tracks. I’ve been following Matt’s work for a long time and it was a lot of fun speaking with him. 

Enrollments for Matt's Aspect Music Academy's 24-week structured mentorship program begin February 9, 2026. The program starts March 16, 2026. More information here: https://aspectmusicacademy.com/

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Matt's Website - https://matttinklermusic.com

• Matt's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@matttinklermusic

• Matt's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/matttinklermusic/

• Chronitect - https://chronitect.com

• Aspect Music Academy - https://aspectmusicacademy.com/

• Make Awesome Sounds with THIS Underused Ableton Live Feature - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TiNtj1eGIs

• Watch THIS if You Can't Finish Music - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gPHMyOvyHM

• Matthew Dicks on the Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/blog/matthew-dicks

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:02.011)

Matt, great to see you, great to talk to you, great to finally meet you. Welcome.

Matt Tinkler (00:03.328)

Brian.

Likewise, thanks for having me on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Yeah. Appreciate you reaching out and looking forward to chatting.

Brian Funk (00:12.652)

Yeah, we're in the Ableton certified trainer world together and I've been following your work a while now. I love your tutorials. They're fun, upbeat and always interesting takes on things and stuff. You use things in ways I never thought to do. So yeah, when your videos come out, I usually check them out and it's great to get a chance to talk to you now for real.

Matt Tinkler (00:37.91)

Yeah, no, thanks, I appreciate that. always, I love keeping things fun when it comes to tutorial, like fun, interesting. I always try to do things that like...

Even if I've seen a feature or something or a technique or something like that, that someone's shown and I'm like, that's a cool idea. always try to figure out how I can take it in a different direction or do something a little bit deeper or like showcase it on a few different levels. Like so that, you know, maybe someone who's never seen that particular feature or anything before, or maybe they're just a little bit less advanced or skilled. They still understand what's going on and then can kind of follow along.

to the more advanced parts of the tutorial and the technique and the tool. And trying to keep that fun along the way is the most important part as well, I think.

Brian Funk (01:32.236)

Yeah, you definitely seem excited about it when you're talking about it. I get the feeling your ideas might come from your music making. It seems like you're kind of working it into something you're doing a lot of the times and then you're sharing whatever it is that you're doing.

Matt Tinkler (01:34.742)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (01:47.774)

It's funny.

I would say probably it's actually more about 50 % both ways. I think it kind of comes a lot from, I will come up, it's either that I will find something, like do something when I'm making music, be like, that's a cool idea, I wanna save that and do a tutorial with it or think about that later on. Or it's about like going, I wanna go deep into this particular thing or how do I do this thing or.

like what's this sound design technique? Like how do I sound design this thing really nicely or whatever? And then figure that out, figure out a way to put it into a tutorial format. And then I'll use it in music. And I'll use like that kind of, that learning and that deep dive into it as inspiration for the creative process later on down the line.

just like another tool to kind of add to the arsenal. But everything that I do and showcase will eventually link to my own music or just my own writing process somehow, whether it started there or if it ends up there. Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:02.05)

Yeah, it's a cool...

back and forth thing that happens, I think, when you start teaching stuff, that it keeps you kind of looking for new stuff and it keeps your eyes open for when you're doing something worth teaching. But sometimes when you go to teach something, the creative thing starts to kick in too. So I've found it to be kind of a nice little hack for myself to keep myself making music where I might teach something or I might, even if I'm building like an instrument rack or something like that, that now I'm making sound.

Matt Tinkler (03:24.47)

Mm.

Brian Funk (03:33.724)

and I'm like, that's fun, I'm gonna start making a song or suddenly you're just making a song. It's a great, because being creative is hard, I think that's something we wanted to talk about too, was just like creative workflow and...

Matt Tinkler (03:39.563)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:49.678)

Sometimes you just don't always feel like, okay, I'm gonna make some song or some music right now. And that could be for a lot of reasons where you might be just not in the energy or even nervous about it. That happens to me a lot. Like, I don't know if I have any ideas. So this is another sort of back door into that process a lot of times.

Matt Tinkler (04:06.88)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (04:12.852)

Absolutely. I find it interesting. Like I do a lot of like one-on-one teaching as well. And it's always, it's always fascinating to me when someone comes in with a question where I'm like, maybe I don't.

quite know the answer to that or like I know kind of how I'd go about making that particular sound or whatever but maybe I don't know exactly how I'd get to it and you know we work through it in the one-on-one session but then like as you say I'll kind of just like sit down for an hour two hours after the lesson and be like and then just like really just figure it out and then eventually yeah it always just turns into making music it's funny super tangent but like well not super tangent

A lot of people will talk about separating the sound design part of the process from the music creation part of the process or stuff like that. I find that really difficult to do because if I ever sit down to do a sound design session, five minutes in I'm making music. I just, can't separate it, you know?

Brian Funk (05:12.961)

Yeah. Right. I think there's some wisdom in that because if you're in the creative flow and then now I have to design a snare drum sound that might pull me out and I might've had an idea that was working out and then by the time I finished my snare drum I might've lost that wave a little bit.

So I tend to follow it in that regard. If I'm on a creative idea, all right, don't worry about the sounds too much. Don't worry about designing things. But if I'm in the sound design mode or the just general upkeep where I'm organizing things or something that's a little more kind of clerical almost. If I get inspired to make music, I always go there.

because to me that is the harder thing to cultivate, that's the harder thing to catch. think...

I can tell that you're probably the same way like you if you had a synthesizer in front of you could probably design a bunch of cool sounds and you'll wind up with something but For me if I have the blank canvas, I don't know if the song or the music is gonna be any good So I'm pretty sure I can make the sounds and the instruments But the other stuff I'm much less confident on so I always prioritize that if I get that kind of jolt, then I'll jump so

Matt Tinkler (06:37.142)

Mmm.

Matt Tinkler (06:40.682)

Like, yeah, using the sounds as inspiration is a really good way to kind of get that kickstarted.

Brian Funk (06:42.582)

It's like a.

Brian Funk (06:49.267)

I like to follow that rule when I'm creating music and in the flow, but when I'm not, if I get the flow, like go with the flow, jump, know, take that chance.

Matt Tinkler (07:01.686)

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny. I think that like one of the, there's people who get stuck across like different parts coming up with ideas is one, you know, sound design, another thing, or like, I think another part that people often get stuck on is like structuring and arrangement. But I think there's like, you know, ways to...

overcome each of those different parts where you get stuck in like, you know, on the ideation side of things. It's like the inspiration is huge. If you can find something that inspires you, like whether it's a sound or if you're actively seeking some other kind of inspiration, like maybe you're doing some kind of conceptual track or something and it's a story that's inspiring you or whatever. Like yeah, if you get that inspiration bug,

you either have to try and catch it in the moment or try and store it for later so that you can draw it out again. I mean, there's techniques as well that I try to teach to come up with ideas and get over them, but yeah, inspiration is a huge one and just trying to find inspiration in different areas of the creative process, but also just of life in general and try to capture those moments.

whether you can do it instantly and try and get inspired to make some music or if you just kind of have to capture it and file it for later.

Brian Funk (08:34.029)

What are some of those techniques that you say to people when they're maybe struggling finding inspiration?

Matt Tinkler (08:43.912)

It's, inspiration to me is often like, it's about the ideation kind of phase of the process. So if you're struggling to come up with, struggling to get inspired, it's, guess that more so on a broader scale, you're struggling to like come up with ideas, right? So inspiration is not the only way to come up with ideas because you can kind of force,

I say force, it's just pushing through barriers, right? You can get to that state where you can come up with ideas.

or find things that inspire you by actively seeking them out. So there's, there's of course, inspiration, like making sounds, playing games, listening to music, reading books, like consuming art, being out in nature, like just having some kind of story thing or having something happen to you, like a life event, something can always inspire you from, from that regard. But if you have really nothing that inspires you, then there's a few other things that I like to kind of,

draw upon. like the next one is, I mean, it's kind of like a working title, right? But it's like the five I's of ideation. I like to do that. So there's like inspiration. Then the next one is improvisation. So if you're just sitting down at a keyboard or maybe a synthesizer or whatever, and you just, you just start playing, it's, it's just, it's play. You make a sound, you play some chord progressions or you play some notes or whatever. And then maybe, and then something that you play will

Brian Funk (09:54.157)

Okay, I like that, cool.

Matt Tinkler (10:17.208)

spark an idea, like that process of improvisation is a reason that a lot of people do that when it comes to writing music because sometimes inspiration is really fleeting but improvisation is kind of always something that you can control. You can always sit down at a keyboard or at a synthesizer or at whatever instrument it is.

and play some notes, hit some things, and it might take two seconds, two minutes, 20 minutes, an hour, but eventually through that process of improvisation, you will find something that is an idea that can then kickstart the creative process and kind of get you writing. And I think that's a really important thing for like...

people who do music writing as a career path. if you have to write something for film and TV or for a video game or for like some background music for something or if you're working corporate, anything, if you have to write something, improvisation is a really great way to overcome that inability to get inspired. So inspiration,

improvisation. The next one is imitation. So if you listen to something like, you know, a track that you really like or an artist you really like and then trying to imitate that style or imitate that artist, that's a really good way to not only try and get inspired, but also to learn as well. Like if you're like, I want to learn a new genre of music. I want to learn how this artist does this kind of stuff. It's like, great, we'll sit down and try and

you know, imitate what they're doing, maybe the same drum patterns, the similar kind of sounds, the similar rhythms, maybe similar chord progressions, tonal aspects, just similar musical functions or whatever it is, and really just diving in. The beauty of doing that as well as you really find out whether you actually like that or making that particular genre or of music or whatever it is that that artist is working in, because sometimes you don't, right? Sometimes you really enjoy listening to something

Matt Tinkler (12:31.524)

But making it is just boring or like it doesn't excite you or... But it does really benefit you too.

learn that process and to go through that process of like experiencing something or like trying out something new or interesting. And that even can kind of come down to tutorials as well, right? Like maybe you've seen a sound design tutorial and your process of imitation is I'm going to try and imitate that sound or I'm going to try and imitate that tutorial and make that sound. And that is going to then hopefully inspire a creative idea. Or maybe you get to that point, the sound you're like, I wonder what would happen if I tweaked this knob or if I did this to it.

you kind of get into that inspiration improvisation stage where you can then start to move further into ideation. yeah, whatever that's for inspiration, improvisation, imitation. And then the next one I find is innovation. So trying something that is really new.

that might be putting together two effects you've never put together before. That might be like trying a new synthesizer. That might be, well, kind of trying new synthesizer, kind of ties to the next one. But it's like, it's really about, I have these things that I know how they work. What happens if I put these two things together? Or like, what happens if I, you know, duplicate this effect a bunch of times? Or what happens if I like, you know, actively try something that I've never tried before?

And then that it kind of is like improvisation as well, but it's really about just like there's an active component to it in that you're thinking about what is this thing that I can push to the next level or two things that I can combine that I've never combined or thought about combining before. And then the last one is investigation. So that's like diving deep into something. So that might be you've got a new synthesizer.

Matt Tinkler (14:33.078)

And you're just going to learn it and you're just going to like, I'm going to make everything with this synthesizer or maybe there's a technique like a really classic one that I like with something like investigation as a, as a framework for creating and coming up with ideas. It's like limiting yourself to a single sample. Right? So like if I used to do that a lot when I was, I don't know, 10 years ago when I was writing music. Um,

one of my creative processes would be to, I'm just going to see what I can write with just one sound. You know, maybe it was like a sine wave and then I'd resample that and stretch it and put it in simplers and resample and add effects and like really just diving deep into one thing, one particular process, one particular sound, one particular tool, one particular whatever. And then I find kind of

between those five different things, you should be able to pick any of those lanes and overcome that inability to come up with an idea. So if you're not inspired, you can try improvising. If you really just can't get anything from improvisation, you can try moving on to imitation. You can try something else that someone else has done and experiment with that. And then if that really doesn't work, maybe you say, okay, well, maybe I'm just gonna try something new, something I've never tried before.

and then if that doesn't work you can always go well I'm going to just try and deep dive into something and whether or not that will end up in a good creative output or something that you're happy with I mean that takes... you've got to expand on that of course you can't just leave it at the ideation phase if you want to actually turn it into a song or whatever but those can all get the ball rolling

Brian Funk (16:18.527)

Those are great. And I like the five I framework just to, you know, sometimes you don't think of those things in the moment. You're just like, I don't have any ideas. But as you're rattling them off, I'm realizing these are a lot of things I like to do. I might try to learn something new, which would be in the investigation thing, or I might learn how to play a guitar solo and or like you said, recreate a patch, follow a tutorial, but then

Matt Tinkler (16:21.43)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (16:27.158)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (16:34.347)

Mm.

Brian Funk (16:47.317)

three quarters of the way through just be like, I'm just gonna go this way. And next thing you know, you're off on your own. It's really nice to have some, I'm gonna probably have to like make a little post-it or something with that just to, just so you have it. Like right now, especially I'm in the middle of January, which is the thing where we try to make something every day and share it. And that's always a big challenge because...

Matt Tinkler (16:59.478)

Hahaha

Matt Tinkler (17:05.77)

Yep, nice.

Brian Funk (17:15.083)

Most of these days, and especially this year so far, we're on like the eighth day and I feel like every day I've been like barely able to even show up. I feel like I haven't even really started yet. But having something just, okay, I'm gonna at least be able to go in a direction is really helpful when you're feeling that like, that pressure or that overwhelming feeling of like, I don't know if I'm ready right now or I don't have a lot of time.

Matt Tinkler (17:42.358)

It's funny, always, I find that the, it's often the people who are more.

Brian Funk (17:45.867)

.

Matt Tinkler (17:54.262)

used to or like more skilled or advanced or longer further along in their journey of making music that often are the ones that struggle to come up with ideas. Like the people who are new at making music, could they could throw ideas out instantly. And that's because they're so playful about it.

Brian Funk (18:04.949)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (18:12.711)

Everything is innovation, right? Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (18:14.538)

That's it, everything is new, everything is just inspiring. Like you see a new tutorial, you wanna go and make that sound, you see this new thing, you wanna go and do that, you download a new plugin, you wanna play around with it. There's so much excitement in those newer people. But then as you get more used to, I kind of know all the techniques, kind of, you know, like I've done this before, like it becomes harder to.

dig for that inspiration and I guess find that excitement and that playfulness. And I think that's why in a lot of my tutorials and just when I teach in general, I like to be so passionate about it because it's, you know, it should be fun. It should be exciting. And that energy I feel like can translate and then get someone inspired to go and make something.

whether they're completely new or they've been in the game for a very long time or anywhere in between. That energy I think is really helpful because at the end of the day it's music. It should be about playfulness and fun. There's always going to be parts of the process that suck and that are annoying but the majority of it should be fun and you should be doing it because you love it.

Brian Funk (19:35.66)

Yeah, that's a great point. I find myself looking at some of the tools I have or the instruments and kind of like, I've played that before. I've, kind of get how it works or I know it, but the deep dives going into it, every time is different. You're different. Your ideas are different. The buttons you press or the knobs you turn or the notes you play are usually different.

So I'm often surprised, this teaching does this for me a lot too, because people will ask a question about, do you do that? And they're like, oh yeah. And then you start playing with it, like, oh, and you know it's another really cool thing you can do. And sometimes you have to just go in the pool a little bit to know you want to swim around. But that feeling before you jump in the pool where you stick your foot in the water or something, you're like, I don't know, is it too cold?

Matt Tinkler (20:16.682)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (20:34.909)

I can't think of a time I ever regretted jumping in the water, literally or figuratively. It's that poking around phase. think it's one thing that is nice about the January high intensity experience when you put that pressure on yourself, or even if you just have a deadline or someone's expecting work from you. The nice part about that pressure is that you just have to do something.

And sometimes the only thing stopping you from really making anything is that you just haven't tried to do anything yet. You're just thinking about it too much.

Matt Tinkler (21:11.028)

Yeah, and I think that's where having these kind of like things to fall back on is really nice because you're like, what haven't I tried yet? I haven't tried this thing. Okay, cool. Well, I'll go and try that thing. And it's just like making a decision, committing to trying that thing. If it doesn't work, that's okay. You can move on and try the next thing. But.

Yeah, having those systems and frameworks and processes that you can use as fallbacks for when you get stuck or when you're just not feeling inspired or you're like, I can't, I don't feel like jumping in the water at the moment. It's like, that little kind of voice that says, no, you can jump in the water. You're like, really? yeah, cool. you kind of go.

Brian Funk (21:53.653)

Now you mentioned capturing these ideas or storing them for later. A lot of times, yeah, I'm like most psyched to make music when I can't. You know, I'm like on my way to work or I'm stuck somewhere away from anything I can use to make music. What kind of methods do you like to use to store that so that when you do have the time, you can access it and actually do something with it?

Matt Tinkler (21:58.602)

Mmm.

Matt Tinkler (22:04.459)

Mmm.

Matt Tinkler (22:18.762)

Yeah, totally. It depends on whatever the form of inspiration is, but if it's like a melody or something that comes into my head or like a rhythmic pattern, I don't funnily enough often act on it, but I will often just pull out my phone and just record like a little voice memo or something. And I've probably got...

I don't know how many little voice members of them. I've never gone back to them because I don't feel like I often struggle to come up with ideas because I will often sit down and improvise or whatever. So I've probably got ideas on there that are probably really good, but that'll never see the light of day. But the voice members are probably one of those things. And I know for a lot of, I've got a lot of friends who use a lot of voice members and stuff like that. And that's how they'll capture a lot of their ideas when they're on the road or just out and about if they can't actually get to a computer and

Brian Funk (22:43.53)

you

Matt Tinkler (23:09.015)

capture it properly or an instrument. Voice members are fantastic. But if it's something that's extra musical, so if it's a book or a story or a video game or something like that, just like writing down notes, you're just like, oh yeah, I want to explore that thing. Or maybe you've seen a YouTube video, like you're out.

somewhere and you're like watching a YouTube video or seeing something crop up on Instagram and you're that's a cool technique. just, just save it. You know, save it to a folder. Like all these platforms have ways that you can save and then refer back to videos later.

And then even if you don't end up referring back to it for ages, you've still got that kind of collection of ideas and inspiration there that you can always like, I'm gonna try this technique. I remember seeing that thing in a video. Let's go back and watch that video. I saved that in this collection and going and seeing that. I mean, I'm still not fantastic at actually.

capturing those ideas. I guess I don't like scroll social media a huge amount. I do watch a bunch of YouTube videos but I think the YouTube space is an interesting one.

there's definitely some people doing some innovative stuff, but there's also people just not doing very innovative stuff as well. And so I find myself rarely getting super inspired from YouTube videos or anything like that, but I definitely like kind of pulling in my surroundings and...

Matt Tinkler (24:51.86)

coming, like drawing on stories or things that have happened to me, experiences, and using those as like starting points. But just emotion as well, I think is a huge thing for particularly what I like to do when it comes to my writing. It's like very immersive and emotive and so just trying to draw on past experiences and stuff like that is I think where I get a lot of my own.

inspiration from. But yeah, capturing ideas, voice memos, journaling, saving things to collections so that you can kind go back to it and when you have the time or if you were really stuck you can always go back to something, you always have some kind of jumping board.

Brian Funk (25:39.241)

Yeah, yeah that's important. Voice memos is huge for me too. I'm always recording stuff.

I do go back to a lot of them. A lot of times I use it for figuring out like phrasing of vocal melodies, especially for songs that I'm working on with my band or things with vocals because getting those words out in a natural way, I try to figure out as best I can.

But I love getting just field recordings. That's probably the thing that pays off the most for me is just recording the atmosphere and the environments I'm in. so I, I loved layering that in the background on tracks. just, you might not even know it's there, but it, for me, sets up like a world for the song. So those pay off a lot. And I do keep lists.

of like song titles or techniques I want to try in a song or even like philosophies to keep in mind. It's actually what I call them too on my list, philosophies to keep in mind, techniques to try.

But I noticed the more I am doing that, the more ideas I have. The more I'm consciously, yeah, that's a good idea, let's write it down in the notebook or on the phone or whatever. It seems like they attract more ideas as well. I don't know if maybe it's that you're just tuning in or you're just noticing that you do have ideas and inspiration all the time, but most thoughts, they just sort of slip away in the moment they're thought and then they're gone.

Matt Tinkler (27:22.934)

I mean, it's interesting, like, because capturing the ideas also extends beyond when you're... mean, it also extends to when you're in the studio or actively working on music as well. Because that's part of the improvisation process or whatever. Like you have to capture something. If you don't, you forget it. So that's where, you know, using the capture MIDI technique or like always being recording or...

You say with like vocal melodies something that yeah, I'll do a lot is just like yeah loop a section of the give I'm trying to come up with vocals or a melody just loop a section and just you're just recording consistently and you end up with way too much audio recording But you just that process of yeah, that's cool. That's cool. That's cool That's cool and you kind of iterating on it as you're recording and improvising

And then eventually like, yeah, that was a good one. That was a cool idea. And then you've got that idea captured because I find inevitably if I don't record that and I try to do it again, it's gone. So kind of capturing it in the moment is so important as well and having the tools to be able to do that. But also just like...

Brian Funk (28:26.407)

Yeah, right.

Matt Tinkler (28:38.086)

acting on that instinct. You know, like, I'm just going to try this. I think that that pool analogy that you had before was really interesting because that's what a lot of people do. They hesitate. They'll think of an idea. They go, I want to do this thing. And then before they act on it, they think about all the reasons that it's not a good idea to do that thing. Whereas all you need to do is just try that thing and then you'll see whether or not it was a good idea. And then if it is a good idea, great. You can keep moving forward with it. But

You kind of don't know it until you try, really.

Brian Funk (29:12.137)

Yeah, you really don't know if any ideas are any good until you try. I've learned that playing in bands with people and I'm gonna, I want to do this. And in my head, might be like, ah, but I'm amazed at how often they're right. Like, yeah, that worked out pretty cool. Like you get on board and give it a shot.

Matt Tinkler (29:27.094)

Mm.

Brian Funk (29:34.824)

Yeah, this idea of deciding to do something. I've been thinking about this a little bit and I don't think that word should exist. Deciding. The ing version, the present tense, I'm deciding. Cause you're not deciding is this, right? It's, it's a millisecond. It's okay. Go. It's or don't go.

Matt Tinkler (29:45.963)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (29:58.472)

deciding is like really more like procrastinating or like you said letting all the negativity or the reasons why you shouldn't fill your mind and you're putting it off. So I'm really trying to do that a lot with my music and the stuff I'm doing where I just, just do it, just decide to do it or not. Don't sit in this kind of in-between world. And I don't.

give myself the time to worry about if it's any good or not. It's like, I'm not even gonna worry about it. I think half the time, your taste comes in somewhere along the way and you make decisions that kind of fit whatever preferences you have. I'm enjoying this freedom of trusting that.

Matt Tinkler (30:30.816)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (30:50.893)

It's not always easy for me to get there, but when I find myself there, things just happen. And it's more fun.

Matt Tinkler (30:55.978)

Yeah.

Totally. I really like that philosophy. That's because you're totally right deciding doesn't make any sense You're in that like in that space of indecision is When you're deciding you've either decided to do something or you've decided to not do something or you're about to decide or not decide to do something

Brian Funk (31:06.803)

Yeah.

Yeah. Right.

Matt Tinkler (31:19.402)

But yeah, like deciding, that's an interesting one. And I imagine doing something like Jamuary, I mean, I'm doing a lesser version of it at the moment, where weekly beats. So it's like one track a week for the whole year. But Jamuary is something that the idea of that is amazing, but scares me. But yeah, I imagine that you'd become really resilient to...

Brian Funk (31:40.155)

It is scary. Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (31:48.718)

the, I guess consequences of making quick decisions when doing something like Jamuary.

Brian Funk (31:55.924)

Yeah, the nice thing about a daily activity like that is if it's terrible today, tomorrow I'll be here. Even the weekly thing you're doing is pretty, that's a pretty ambitious task too. And I'm sure you probably get that same sensation of like, all right, I'm doing this this week, but next week is a new idea anyway, so.

It gives you the freedom to be a little risky and courageous with your choices. Whereas if you were just making one song every six months, you'd labor over it and you'd start worrying about so many things. Is this expressing my true artistic vision? You get caught up in this like artist idea. I think that screws us up a lot where I'm making this song that's going to really capture me and my

statement to the world. It's too much pressure.

Matt Tinkler (32:51.976)

It's so much pressure. It's really funny, like the whole idea of the, like capturing your unique artistic voice or whatever. There's, I mean, there's a lot of talk about, like that's one of the things that a lot of people talk about online. It's like how to find your sound, how to not sound like anyone else, how to like find your unique sound, et cetera.

But from my experience, the only way that that actually happens, the only way that you find your own expressive voice, your unique sound, whatever it is you want to call it, is just by writing more stuff, writing more music and getting through the process more because...

you're never gonna find what works for you unless you've just like gone through the process so many times and you're discovering new tiny little bits along the way. And then that.

unique sound that really personal expression of yourself musically is always going to change as well. Like it can change on a relatively frequent basis but it can also just change on a very long over time basis. Like the music that I'm making now feels really personal and it feels like one of the most truest expressions of

me as a creator, but if I fast forward five years, I know that that's probably not going to be the case anymore. The music's going to have changed. The ideas and the style is going to have evolved and it's going to still feel like me. And it's the moments when I haven't been writing much music where maybe it's like one track every six months or whatever.

Matt Tinkler (34:38.258)

It's those times in my life where I haven't felt artistically aligned because I haven't been churning out music. I haven't been figuring out what is a representation of me at that particular moment in my life. So yeah, like I don't think, I don't think that there's any way that writing one track every six months, seven months, one year.

and laboring over it to make sure that it's your own artistic identity or expression of yourself is ever actually gonna work. It just doesn't make sense, to me anyway.

Brian Funk (35:11.753)

I think you're right, because then it becomes sort of fabricated too. Because you're thinking about it too much, you're crafting it, you're designing it, you're not just being whatever you happen to be. I think those types of things like voice and all of that happens through a body of work, through a large collection of stuff over time.

And that's probably a more accurate representation of any person, right? Like you're not whatever slice of you that a person gets on any given day is only just a little sliver of the full picture. So you kind of need to keep showing up. One of the nice things about something like a weekly challenge or like a January is that a lot of people will start

putting stuff out there for the first time, the first few times, and do it a few times in a row in succession, and sort of see like, it didn't really, you know, break anything, it didn't shatter the world. Mostly, we put stuff out there, it's hardly even noticed anyway. When you have, when you sort of pollute the world with your art, so to speak, there's just so much out there.

Then there's so many different angles people can come to you or different slices of you out there that it's hard to even know what they're going to pick up on anyway. I just watched an interview with He was talking about his biggest song was sort of a, is now this, I forget what song, When It Rains I Feel Like Dying, I think it's called, something like that.

Matt Tinkler (36:52.98)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Matt Tinkler (37:04.831)

Okay.

Brian Funk (37:05.956)

It's an instrumental and it's very different from a lot of the stuff he's ever done. And he was just talking about how that particular track wasn't really meant to be this whole statement. It's his most stream thing now. You really just don't know what's going to happen. And if he didn't go with that, if he didn't put that out or didn't follow through on it, or even listen to some people that were kind of saying like, it doesn't sound finished. Where's the beat? You you're supposed to have

beats in your song, you make dance music. It's kind of freeing, I think, to just throw stuff out there a lot. And then you sort of have this trail you left behind. It's a documentation of where you've been. I think it's kind of rewarding on a personal level, even forget what other people think. I don't really rely or count on anyone listening to anything I ever do.

You know, it's freeing when you look at it that way, I find, compared to the, I'm making my masterpiece, my opus, my statement.

Matt Tinkler (38:06.048)

Totally.

Matt Tinkler (38:18.332)

Absolutely. I find it really personally interesting to A, go back through other artists' catalogues and like you find a new artist to you or maybe one of your favorite artists that have just released a new album or a new body of work or whatever and going back and listening through their whole discography or like listening back to some of their first stuff and comparing it to their newest stuff and be like, it's so interesting to see that.

Brian Funk (38:35.527)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (38:44.763)

progression and see that difference. Yeah. Yeah, 100%.

Brian Funk (38:45.564)

Yeah, those deep dives. Yeah. Yeah, those are fun. I love when I get on one of those. Sometimes you just find somebody, some group or something. And after a while, you start almost, I find, start, I don't have favorite songs anymore, favorite, maybe I have like, eras I like, but I just like them. I like what they're doing. And...

Yeah, I'm not like into like take like a Bob Dylan type of character that's left thousands of songs behind. mean, I don't love all of them, but I love Bob Dylan. And you can go almost anywhere with him and find something interesting. There's so many artists like that where it gets really exciting just to get to know them as a person through it and their views on things. And you see it change.

Sounds change, ideas change.

Matt Tinkler (39:45.61)

Yeah, absolutely. And it's also really interesting to go back and do that for yourself as well. Like go back through your own catalog and be like, yeah, that's what I was writing at that moment in time. And you kind of remember like, yeah, that's what I was feeling. Like you talked about it being a really personal thing too. I think it's really cool to go back and listen to your own catalog and where you were.

Brian Funk (39:50.173)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (40:05.066)

you know, one, two, five, 10 years ago, whatever you were writing, kind of put yourself back into that mindset and be like, what's so interesting? Like what I'm writing now versus what I was writing then. And regardless of the technical progression, you know, maybe you've gotten better at sound design, sound selection, mixing, composition, whatever it is, just hearing that.

representation, that manifestation of where you were emotionally, physically, mentally at that point in time versus now, or you know, that whole spectrum across that whole timeline. I find that super fascinating and interesting. And you don't...

you know, if you don't write music and if you don't finish music, even if you put it out or not, it doesn't really matter, you can have it on a collection of hard drive, which is just, guess, totally okay. I think you should share it, but it's just personally really satisfying to have that collection of finished stuff that you can hear your progression along however long of a timeline.

Brian Funk (41:07.144)

find it interesting how my relationship to it changes or my interpretation of it or sometimes I hear things in it and I'm like, whoa, what kind of like fortune teller was I? How did I, you know, see this or just there's naivete to it too where, oh man, listen to what I'm going on about here or the way I was playing or these...

periods you go through it's it's surprising how you can it's like going back to a hometown I guess or something like that where you see it again from a totally different angle and that itself is also very inspiring

I often want to make more music when I hear it. For a lot of reasons. It could be the like cringe factor, like, oh God, like I gotta, you know, put more, dilute this down with more material so it sinks further to the bottom or something. But mostly it's like, I want to keep writing the story of whatever it is I'm doing here.

Matt Tinkler (42:03.167)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (42:10.966)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (42:14.784)

Yeah, I mean, it's quite, it's a little bit tangential, but one of the things that I've been doing now for the last seven years is like every night before bed, just like journaling, even if it's just like three, five, six lines, whatever. And in the moment, like it's not about getting my ideas down or like, you know, getting my thoughts on paper or anything like that. It's purely just about the practice of doing it and being like what happened throughout the day.

Brian Funk (42:29.787)

Nice.

Matt Tinkler (42:43.792)

And, you know, in the moment you're writing and you're like, yeah, whatever. That's interesting. It's, but it's not until, you know, I go back now and I'm like, I have seven years worth of books that are documenting every single day of my life.

Brian Funk (42:59.495)

That's awesome.

Matt Tinkler (43:00.31)

Like it's just crazy, you know? And I'm never gonna go back and read them, but maybe I'll flick through one and open one up and be like, oh, you know, the 10th of January, which is funnily enough almost is the 9th January day, like, you know, it's the 10th of January, like 2020, like what was happening then? And you just kind of, you just flick back through and go, oh yeah, that's really interesting. And so it's, yeah. Yeah, I wonder what was happening. I could go tell you. Yeah, we had no idea. Oh man, yeah, yeah, that was the thing.

Brian Funk (43:19.621)

The 10th of January 2020. We had no idea. We were like so innocent.

That's a great practice. I do something similar. I'm going on about three years of daily things. And it's something I totally took from a writer, Matthew Dix, who wrote some really good books on writing and storytelling that really apply to music. I had him on the podcast. He was a very cool guy.

book called Storyworthy, which is about storytelling, and another book called Someday is Today. Someday is Today. And that's like being creatively productive. And I'll put show notes because, I mean, these are life-changing for me, these books. Seriously. And one of the things he does to get his story ideas, he calls it homework for life. And every single day, just writes down something memorable about that day.

And it's only meant to take like a minute. You don't want to draw it out because kind of like I get the sense that's what you're saying. Just a couple of lines. Because if it's a big project, you're going to eventually be like, I don't have 20 minutes to journal today and you'll miss a day. But when it's just like really quick, it's not too bad. And you're right. It's really interesting to look back on things. And the biggest takeaway I've had from it is that

Most of your life is not even a memory. It just slips away. It just poof, like smoke in the air, you know? And to be able to look back on things and be like, yeah, yeah, I do remember that day. I haven't thought of it since, but it comes back to you in these little nuggets of things. Yeah, I don't look at it a ton, but every once in I do it on a spreadsheet and I just kind of scroll through and.

Brian Funk (45:14.063)

I could even do like a search for like a name or a word. And, it's pretty cool. It's helped me a lot with being creative, I think, and just trying to notice too, on a daily basis, what was interesting about today? Was it like something somebody said, something I heard or somewhere I went? And I think that those types of practices just get you in this mindset.

trying to make stuff and make something of stuff, make something of your life.

Matt Tinkler (45:52.222)

Yeah, I mean that kind of comes back to doing like jammery or jamuary or weekly beats or anything like that, just having that consistent practice.

that you have at the end of the day or the week or the month, whatever it is, you have just an archival piece of material. It could be public and it could be, yeah, as the Moby example, it could be the next big thing or one of your most streamed songs or whatever, or it could be private and just purely for you as an archival purpose, but if it's a completed thing, completed being.

whatever that is that you want it to be. Then yeah, you've got something that can go and you can look back on, you can listen back to, you can read and get that.

Brian Funk (46:31.879)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (46:42.87)

I mean, it's also another form of inspiration to you. Like, yeah, I remember what I was doing back then. that's really interesting. Like, maybe, you know, even if it's a personal thing, like, yeah, I really enjoyed going to that cafe. I want to go back to that cafe again. Like, is that kind of revisiting, revisiting things that you've done previously or, and yeah, musical ideas, creative ideas, artistic ideas, places, mindsets, thoughts. And it's just interesting to see.

Brian Funk (46:45.713)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (47:11.538)

how you've changed and progressed over that time as well.

Brian Funk (47:17.735)

Yeah, it sounds like part of what we're getting at. It's almost a lifestyle, this creative process to try to find it in a lot of things. And it just starts to show up. Maybe music is the thing we and people that might be listening to us talk right now are into. But it's...

about trying to find it all the time and always keeping yourself like a radio antenna tuned to that and noticing it. And even noticing it in other people. I get a lot of inspiration out of the whole Jamuary type thing or even watching you do your work. It inspires me like you're doing it. Like, cool. It's not impossible. You made a song. Wow. Because sometimes it feels that way. Sometimes it's like,

I don't understand how to do this. I've been doing it for most of my life and now look at me. Today I can't do nothing. noticing other people's victories even. I really do try to take some pleasure in other people's accomplishments for that reason. You could almost call it like in a selfish way but it...

Matt Tinkler (48:19.766)

Absolutely.

Matt Tinkler (48:34.293)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (48:39.982)

It's fuel to the fire. like listening back to your old stuff is just seeing people do it.

Matt Tinkler (48:46.324)

Absolutely. It's, I think one of actually the most inspiring things for me is, so like recently I've been running like the pilot version of a six month mentorship program, which is about to kind of re-kick into it, like about to kick off in a few months time, like properly. Yeah, it's Aspect Music Academy. yeah, it's, yeah, yeah, cool.

Brian Funk (49:05.038)

Is this Aspect Music Academy?

Brian Funk (49:10.182)

Yeah, tell us about that a little bit. And then you can tell us the inspiring part about it. Let's get a little plug in because...

Matt Tinkler (49:14.238)

Yeah sure, so yeah I'll get a little plug, that's a good idea. Yeah so Aspect Music Academy is basically the school that I'm starting. I last year started doing a pilot of a six month mentorship program where I would help people one-on-one just kind of with their...

problems, I suppose, when it came to finishing music and writing music and overcoming technical barriers and being able to get stuff out there and get their creative ideas flowing and, you know, out and have something that they could show for it. And all of the students that came through, noticed them basically having very similar...

issues in terms of like the blockers or things that were coming up and the majority of it for them was that they couldn't finish music. Like it kind of comes back to what we're talking about before. A lot of them were kind of more early on in their journey and they don't...

struggle with coming up with musical ideas, they struggle with finishing music ideas or progressing the musical ideas. And so I kind of noticed this, I was like, oh, okay, that's really interesting. And that's led me to kind of do some research into the creative process and thinking about it as well. But it was also like, well, is there a way I can take what I'm teaching these people and...

structure it into something that can also be used to help other people because if basically seven out of my seven mentees are all struggling with this exact same thing there's probably a lot more people who are struggling with this exact same thing as well and I kind of

Matt Tinkler (51:00.948)

tangent to the inspiring part, is that seeing these people then actually finish music, like I have one of my mentees who's been working on music for five years, never finished a single thing at all. And like finally getting him to actually finish a song and finish something and like press export and be like, it's done. Like that was so...

inspiring and exciting and amazing to see that like actually you've been working on music for five years you've never finished anything now you've actually finished something and just like seeing his face light up and

seeing him be so proud and then having more ideas and knowing like the process that he can kind of go through to now take an idea from the start through to the finish line. That's, it's really incredible to see that. And so yeah, I decided that I wanted to start up.

Basically a more structured program where I could help more people in both a kind of group capacity and a one-on-one capacity as well. And so that's why I decided to start Aspect Music Academy. So it's basically a developed, further developed version of the one-on-one or the six month mentorship program where there's weekly sessions, it's a curriculum. We go through the process of basically the whole creative process.

in a very short period of time and then iterate on that process. So you kind of go deeper into each of the different sections over the course of the 24 different weeks. But the idea is that you start with, let's just get you finishing a song, like very quickly. So it's like, you know, doing like a January or a weekly beats. It's over a four week cycle. But the idea is like, let's get you.

Matt Tinkler (52:43.294)

to know how you can actually finish a song and take something from start to finish, even if it doesn't sound as polished or professional as your reference tracks who are artists who've been making music for 15, 20, 30 years, like music that's... Exactly. Yeah.

Brian Funk (52:56.26)

And how could you ever expect it to be? I mean, we all want it to, but it's a very, yeah, I know that feeling. I want it to, too, but how could you realistically expect it to be? And you gotta let that go. Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (53:09.202)

Exactly. Yeah, 100%. And the only way that you'll get to that point, if you want to try and get to that point, is not by spending 30 years coming up with eight bar loops, it's by spending 30 years finishing music. The more music that you finish, the better you'll get at the process. So that's where the whole thing starts off with...

getting something finished really quickly so you know what the whole process looks like so that then every time you do that you can get better and better and better better and better at each stage of the process so that can kind of, every track you finish is slightly better and it's teaching you something. And so...

That was the kind of whole idea with the program. I don't know when this episode is coming out, but the waitlist is open at the moment. This is the 9th of Jan as we're recording this. Applications are going to open the 2nd of February and the program is going to start 9th of March or something along 9th to 16th. Can't quite remember. But so that's really exciting.

the progress with the mentees so far, the course of the pilot program has been amazing and I'm really excited to share it with more people and get more people finishing music. So yeah, that's Aspect Music Academy. And I kind of decided on the name because it was about kind of finding your own musical aspect. Like everyone who's writing music.

part of themselves is music and it's about like tuning into that aspect of yourself that was kind of where the name came from.

Brian Funk (54:53.093)

That's cool. Yeah, that's a, I could see how that could be really inspiring. Yeah. Especially somebody that's had a hard time with that and made it through. It's like, yeah, you did it, you know? And we get good at starting songs because it's the first step.

Matt Tinkler (55:05.142)

Yeah

Brian Funk (55:12.869)

You know, you do that every time. But the finishing steps, the final steps, you don't always practice those if you gotta finish songs to practice those parts of the process. And I'm a big fan of making bad music for that reason. Try to just follow through on it. Let it be a bad song, it's fine, it's okay, it's just practice.

Matt Tinkler (55:13.398)

Mm.

Brian Funk (55:35.014)

You're just going through the process because one day you're going to have a good song that you really like. And at least now you know how to get through it. You'll know how to finish instead of now I got this really great idea and I don't know what to do. And then that becomes your seven year opus that never gets finished because you haven't gone through that. Just cranking them out, I think is really the only way it's just getting reps in.

Matt Tinkler (56:00.074)

Yeah, I see that so many times where people will early on in their journey or even later on in their journey come up with an idea that they're like, this is it, this is the best idea. And then they're really scared to touch it. Or they will take, yeah, it's precious. Or they'll take it through to a point where they're like, okay, this is the best I can take it at the moment. I can't really get it to where I want it. So I'm gonna leave it and park it. And then they kind of...

Brian Funk (56:15.353)

Yeah, it's precious.

Matt Tinkler (56:27.486)

three years later on down the road or one year or two, or however long it is, they come back to it because they're like, now I've got the skills to finish it. They go back to listen to it and they're like, no. And they try to like finish it and they try to tweak it and finesse it and everything. But they realize that the skills they have now are vastly different to the skills that they had then. And it's never going to be able to like sound like what they want it to sound like because they've started it from a different point in their life and their skill set and everything.

they kind of tear it down and just take like the core melodic idea or core rhythmic idea or whatever it is and then try to build it back up again and they reach that same point where they go okay cool well now I just need to spend another two years getting more skills so I can get that last bit and it just repeats it just repeats and yeah you end up in these with these tracks that you've sat on for years and years and years and years years that are never gonna see the light of day because they're too

Brian Funk (57:13.709)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (57:25.824)

precious to you almost and then every single time you keep getting better and you go back and you try to apply those new skills to that older track it doesn't work because that track was made in such a way that your new skills aren't going to be able to help it because it's already so far along in the process.

Brian Funk (57:47.75)

Yeah, and then you re-record it, you got demo-itis because you liked something about the way it was. Maybe you just had the spirit of that day. It's really hard to tap into that feeling you had.

Matt Tinkler (58:01.396)

Yeah, absolutely.

Brian Funk (58:02.295)

I think we, the longer we have an idea in progress, it gives us more time to imagine all the places we want to take it. And in my imagination, it's a perfect fantasy. It could do all these magical things and go in this direction, that direction, contradictory directions that are like the impossible staircase, know, MC Escher sketches and stuff. Like.

Matt Tinkler (58:24.32)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:27.909)

And you can have that in your head, but once you start putting it down, then you get the imperfect reality. And it's not quite what you thought. And it can't do those seven other things because that's impossible in reality. And you get stuck because of that. I think it's important to blast through it.

Matt Tinkler (58:50.492)

Absolutely.

Brian Funk (58:50.807)

I don't see the only real answer I can come up with is blasting through it while you're excited about it, taking it somewhere. And then when you have it, you can do like the editing finessing stuff a bit. But when it's still kind of being formed and if you let it stay as like mushy clay for too long. There's like a expiration date or something that happens.

Matt Tinkler (59:13.738)

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (59:19.597)

100%. Yeah, I did a video about this recently, actually. It was a horribly performing video, but I was very, I wanted to put it out. But it was, you one of the things in it was, yeah, like this idea of when you spend more time on something, like it's kind of this bell curve, right? Where it's the amount of time spent along the bottom versus the ability to actually finish it. And at the start, you know, you did...

you've not spent any time on it so you can't finish it, but then at some point you've spent just the right amount of time and if you push through at that moment, you'll really easily be able to finish it, but then the longer you spend on it, the harder and harder and harder it becomes to actually finish that track because you become either really attached to it or you become really bored of it or you just kind of keep trying new ideas and everything and it's just, yeah, it's mostly you either become too attached to it or you become too bored with it.

and then you just kind of move on to something else and you never get that thing finished because you've just spent too long working on it.

Brian Funk (01:00:22.276)

Which video is this? I'm looking at them now. Is it the second to last one you did? Watch this if you can't finish music. Okay, because yeah, I see like you got like, I see the number dipped on that one. And I, this is like, you know, kind of.

Matt Tinkler (01:00:25.334)

I think it's the second to last one, the... Yeah, something like that. Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:00:37.382)

Yeah, yeah did, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:00:43.012)

You're trying to learn YouTube, I'm sure, as I've been trying to learn and understand what works. The more I've researched it, I used to think it was the algorithm that was evil, but really mostly what the algorithm is just what people want to see and what they click on. Sometimes I feel like I have this gem of an idea and I put it out and it's just like, what the hell? Why didn't that work?

And it makes me think a bit about music too, with a lot of like artists, you probably heard artists talking about their hit song and they'll be like, I didn't think that was the hit. We thought if anything, this was the song or, so like people don't even know when they have it, that they have it. You know what I'm saying? So that judgment thing is really, you can't trust it because

Matt Tinkler (01:01:33.428)

Yeah, absolutely.

Brian Funk (01:01:41.399)

You really just don't know until you get through and until you put stuff out there. And I can see I watched this video. It's got the complete red bar. So I'm wondering your views on that. I kind of remember it. It's yeah, it's a good one.

Matt Tinkler (01:01:49.29)

Yeah, right. yeah. That's... Love it. Thank you.

Brian Funk (01:02:01.56)

But who knows, I couldn't tell you why. Maybe it didn't have the like instant, maybe you're being a little too realistic. You know, it wasn't like guaranteed number one hit in five minutes.

Matt Tinkler (01:02:05.012)

I think it's...

Matt Tinkler (01:02:14.734)

I think, yeah, I think actually one of the reasons it probably doesn't do well is like, you know, I've built up the channel over the last three years, just being like Ableton tips and stuff. And so when something comes out that's not an Ableton tip specifically.

Brian Funk (01:02:26.264)

Yeah, okay. Specifically a tip, yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:02:31.902)

technique or something like that then it doesn't do as well because that's not the audience that I've built up and it's like not what people expect to see from me but it makes me think back to like when I first started doing the YouTube videos where I was getting worse views than that because my channel was so small and no one knew what to expect from me so it kind of makes me think if I put out something that's

tangentially related to what I do, know, like the three reasons you can't finish music, why you can't finish music. It's not that it's a bad video, it's not that it's got bad content in it, it's just that the audience that I have isn't primed to receive content from me like that. And so it's kind of like almost building up the channel from scratch again, because you've just got a different type of video. And I guess that's where people start up second channels and stuff like that too. I don't know, I'm not.

I've kind of thought about this a little bit and doing the content creator thing, you know, making YouTube more optimized and doing that. But I never really set out to be a content creator. It was always just about sharing value and giving people ideas. And so like, if there's lots of, even if there's like 10, five, one person who sees a video and they get inspired by it and it's like, it's really real to them. Like that's the kind of impact I want to have in the world.

it's got hundreds of thousands of views or whatever, it's about that really direct impact.

Brian Funk (01:04:05.252)

Yeah, I've been...

thinking about this and thought through these things a lot too, because my channel has, there might be Ableton Live Packs, it might be a tutorial, the podcast goes on at two. So then you throw in an hour and a half conversation and some of it's more philosophical. Sometimes it's just music I'm making. It is very, it's not well optimized for, you can expect this from me every time.

Matt Tinkler (01:04:24.043)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:37.318)

it's not. And I even thought about that with my music too because I tend to want to do like everything, you know, I don't want to stick to anything. So do I have other names? And I ultimately came to the decision just to use my name as artist as just the...

Matt Tinkler (01:04:38.848)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (01:04:47.68)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:04:56.523)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:59.044)

It started to get so weird to me that we even have to have artist names and alter egos. On one level that's kind of fun, but I just wanted to not even think about that anymore. And it might be a marketing misstep as far as some of that goes, but maybe there's a long game to it where after a while...

Matt Tinkler (01:05:22.847)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:24.682)

some of the people that only care about the packs I make or only care about the podcast might. And if not, I think the other thing for me too is I just don't have enough time to worry about that. I'd rather just make stuff. And I do have a day job as a teacher, as a high school English teacher. So it affords me a little freedom to not have to.

Matt Tinkler (01:05:40.137)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:50.34)

really worry about focusing on it for like financial success. There's, you know, that's something I want to be able to do. And I'm very thankful that I don't have to teach summer school because I can do music. But, yeah, like there, I guess it's just like a.

Matt Tinkler (01:05:54.89)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:06:02.838)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:06:09.048)

point where I kind of came to that conclusion for myself and maybe I'll probably reevaluate and probably wake up in the middle of the night sometime next week and be like what am I doing but I should have four channels for I should not do this anymore but it's nice to be able to again like if you're thinking about like this artist thing this body of work it's nice to just make it and you know

Matt Tinkler (01:06:21.44)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:06:36.746)

Yeah, and have that kind of archival, yeah, like I've got all these songs.

Brian Funk (01:06:41.098)

Anytime I've gotten too concerned over the statistics or the pack sales or the downloads, it's taken a lot of the fun out of it. And I found myself doing things that I don't enjoy as much. Because like, that worked. That was effective. But I did that video for that company about their new gear. Like, yeah, that did hit pretty good, but...

Matt Tinkler (01:06:52.982)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:07:03.864)

Whatever I've decided to do for those reasons, those are the things I get stressed out about. They made my play work. Play music became work music. I'm kind of okay right now, think. Ask me next week.

Matt Tinkler (01:07:22.878)

It's funny every time you try and like, I mean, I go through this, yeah, so much. I'm fortunate now, I suppose, where I'm able to have my music in general be the primary source of my, or the only source of my income, whether it's, you know, like doing content or if it's teaching or if it's making music or whatever it is. But...

Brian Funk (01:07:49.058)

That's amazing. I mean, that's a really awesome accomplishment. got to, and I'll take my own personal pleasure from you for this by showing that it's possible. Because it's one of those things, I think, probably any adult hears a kid say like, I'm going to do like, want to make music. like, even musicians like, no, you know, don't do that. But no, that's a really great thing.

Matt Tinkler (01:07:57.558)

Thanks.

Matt Tinkler (01:08:09.035)

Mmm.

Matt Tinkler (01:08:13.578)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:17.345)

to be able to do and have fun doing it. one of first things I said to you is, it seems like you're having a lot of fun.

Matt Tinkler (01:08:24.244)

Yeah. And I think that's, that's the biggest thing is like, think that the things you have the most fun doing tend to be the things that translate into financial success. at least from what I've, what I've seen, like, yeah, there's going to be the, like you said, the videos that pop off because you did a video for a company or you managed to get in on a new, a new release or something like that, or,

someone sponsored you for something or whatever. So you get like little bits of financial stuff, but if you can tie that back into something that actually makes it fun for you or something that is fun for you, then it's something that I think translates to your audience, whether that is you doing a video on that thing or if it's just you making music or if it's you writing a post or putting together a product or something like that.

you know, if I don't know about you, but if I see a product like a plugin or a rack or sample pack or something, I can tell whether or not the person who's made it or the company that's made it actually cared about what was put into it. And you can kind of tell like, you know, if they, they continually updated or anything like that, then, you can, you can tell this heart and soul and love that's gone into it. And it might not be

an immediately obvious commercial or financial success, but I think that over time, it's the showing up thing and it's just the putting out there things that you love and in return, eventually the world and the universe will kind of catch up and be like, yeah, okay, you deserve this now, finally. But yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:06.019)

Yeah, there's something about enthusiasm. I've always felt that just playing live music, you have to be enthusiastic, I think. mean, that was always one of the most important things. Like, you can't look like you're not having a good time.

Matt Tinkler (01:10:12.075)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:10:20.085)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:28.149)

And I've seen lots of musicians play that I didn't even like their music, but they were fun to watch. Like, look at how much fun they're having up there, you know? And it does come off, yeah. You kind of can see it when people are doing something they're really excited about or when it's, you know, just something that might work.

Matt Tinkler (01:10:33.522)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:10:51.734)

Yeah, absolutely. Even if the crowd doesn't enjoy it, right? Even if the crowd isn't having fun, like in the moment, you know, I've played shows to 10 people or whatever, and those 10 people aren't enjoying it at all. But you're just up there and you're just having a blast. Or maybe those people don't look like they're enjoying it, but then they come up to you afterwards and be like, oh man, that was really sick. You were having so much fun up there. I was like, yeah, I was having a lot of fun up there. So even if in the moment it doesn't seem like the crowd's enjoying it.

Brian Funk (01:10:52.599)

That's tough.

Brian Funk (01:10:56.291)

.

Brian Funk (01:11:05.357)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:16.641)

Yeah, you win them over sometimes that way.

Matt Tinkler (01:11:19.646)

Yeah, you do. Yeah, even if the music is really, like if the music really good, but it's not really exciting for you to watch because you're not having fun, then that translates. But then if the music is not what someone likes to listen to, but as you say, just having an absolute blast up there and really enjoying it and having a lot of fun. That can make people really enjoy it because they're just like, I just love watching this person be really passionate and excited about what they're doing.

Brian Funk (01:11:21.463)

Yeah.

Okay.

Brian Funk (01:11:47.266)

Yeah. Yeah, when I first started bringing out my Ableton Live performances, I was playing to the scenes I knew, which were like rock band, punk rock, know, that kind of underground rock, you know, local band thing.

And this is probably like 2010, 2011, where laptops weren't ubiquitous in every type of music. So I've come out with my laptop and people are like, what? Like, you know, the rock and roll club and like, we're doing dubstep, bro. Like that was what people would always say. We do a dubstep, bro. And then Long Island accent. And.

Matt Tinkler (01:12:23.574)

Hahaha

Matt Tinkler (01:12:29.877)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:33.283)

I had to sell it. I had to really perform it and enjoy it while I was doing it. There was always a point, it's funny, there was a point, like I said, was three songs in where I'd bring in this song, I'd do a vocoder thing.

Matt Tinkler (01:12:35.702)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:12:52.835)

That was when I could see people like, okay. You know, they're like, all right, all right. But I had to always get over this beginning part where everyone was like, what the hell is this? what, we're here to see bands, not DJs. And, you know, it wasn't DJing, but it looked, I was, it looked like DJing, you know, cause I had my controllers and my knobs and my laptop. So.

Matt Tinkler (01:13:14.368)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:20.139)

That's powerful, your own passion, just like really being unashamedly enthusiastic about what you're doing. You do have to kind of sometimes get over those hurdles or those doubters and all that.

Matt Tinkler (01:13:40.01)

Yeah, and it's interesting like...

Brian Funk (01:13:42.263)

But it's contagious. It's a contagious energy, if you continually put it out there, to your point.

Matt Tinkler (01:13:49.396)

Yeah, exactly. It's super contagious. And I think that that's all the people that I see who are successful in the arts or creativity and in any way, shape or form, content creation, anything where they have to have like a public facing thing. It's, they're enthusiastic. They're passionate.

And I think that it's something that maybe doesn't come naturally to a lot of musicians or artists or creative to be able to show that passion externally. But I think if you can, it's going to be beneficial to potential commercial success.

if that's what you want. Or just in success of your art in general, like the more that you can showcase your enthusiasm for what you do and your passion behind it. Yeah, it's contagious. You're 100 % right.

Brian Funk (01:15:02.114)

So let's see. What else do we got to talk about here? Because I know we had a few things on our minds.

Matt Tinkler (01:15:04.544)

Mmm.

Matt Tinkler (01:15:12.05)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:15:15.722)

I mean, I'm curious.

Brian Funk (01:15:16.076)

How are you with just the whole, yeah, sure, go ahead. I was going to ask you probably a repeat question, I think.

Matt Tinkler (01:15:23.949)

I was curious, with the Jammuari stuff you're doing, how far are you taking those ideas? When you're doing them, are they fully structured songs? Are they finished? Or are they just kind of like... What stage do they get to when you...

Brian Funk (01:15:42.123)

it always varies and it's almost always a time thing. I try to complete it for whatever it is though. Whereas like, even if it's just sort of like a couple scenes of loops.

Matt Tinkler (01:15:45.515)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:16:00.717)

that I've jammed out. I'm going to arrange it. It might be a little crude, I'll make a little automation here or there. But I always try to at least get there. want to export it. Because I mean, like listening to it in my car rides and see if there's anything there. The jamuary thing is definitely very sketch patty. And I can listen back to these ideas.

Sometimes you just get lucky, you know, there's definitely a numbers game and once in a while like boom the song just shows up and you catch it and you feel pretty good about it. I like to try to finish stuff in February so the next thing I do with my community the music production club we'll talk about is finish February. Try to finish anything. It could be an EP, an album or just one track and try to put it out there, put out something.

That doesn't always land finished in February, but it usually gets the ball rolling for something that I can have at some point throughout the year or so, or I can have some kind of release and something to work with. Yeah, it really depends. Some things are a little jammy where, like last night, I just played guitar through this really cool pedal, not pedal, plugin called...

Butterfly Effect by Sound Better. You know that one? So I've had it for a while and talk about like saving ideas. keep in the Ableton Live browser, I keep a collection called Try Me. And that's where I'll just put things that, this is cool, but I haven't really played with it too much yet. So on a January, for instance, when like last night when it's 930 at night and I'm

Matt Tinkler (01:17:30.74)

Yes. Yeah. I do. Yeah, I've seen it.

Brian Funk (01:17:57.153)

I really need to get to bed. I found myself just loading that up, playing the guitar, you know, running that through it and getting lost in it for quite a while. Cause it's just a really fun plugin and takes you to outer space and ambient worlds. but even that, like I tried to make a bit of a composition out of it, you know? So I am trying to have some sort of

Matt Tinkler (01:18:07.606)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (01:18:29.14)

I guess, you know, finished version of it, even if it, even if all I have is like a loop, a couple of different tracks, I'll at perform it and make a bit of an arrangement out of it.

Matt Tinkler (01:18:42.964)

Yeah, cool. I think that's important.

Brian Funk (01:18:44.448)

That's something I want to work on. That's something I want to get better at. And that's, think, a good thing to have in this type of activity is a little bit of a goal. Something you're trying to polish up on.

Matt Tinkler (01:18:57.364)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. think it's, yeah, I mean, it kind of comes back to stuff we've talked about before, but that the importance of taking an idea through to some semblance of completion or finishing. And yeah, the more you do it, the better you get at it. And people like you and I have been doing this for a long time. So we probably have little techniques and tricks that we can kind of fall back on to take an idea from just an idea to an arranged thing, to a structured thing, and then maybe go through to mix it down or whatever.

But yeah, really like just going through that process of doing it over and over and over again. You just get better at it. And I think that's the biggest thing really.

Brian Funk (01:19:41.088)

Yeah, I'm hearing people in our Discord that have been doing it a couple years now and some of their stuff is like so much better this year. It's just come a long way. I can hear like, man, these like productions are really far ahead from where they might've been last year. Like one after another too. It's really nice to have that. You've got your community too where...

Matt Tinkler (01:19:53.398)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (01:20:01.334)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:20:10.145)

just have people doing it, because I go on that Discord sometimes not sure if I'm going to be able to make anything for the day, and I start hearing some things like, I have to, like, everyone's doing it, you know? Like, I don't want to be, I don't want to miss it, I don't want to look back and be like, I missed the day, you know? It's another form of motivation.

Matt Tinkler (01:20:17.206)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (01:20:23.381)

Yep.

Matt Tinkler (01:20:32.052)

I think the community thing is...

Yeah, the community is really a fantastic way to get motivated. I mean, I run little monthly challenges on my Discord, on my Discord as well. yeah, like that's, get, I think we had eight submissions or something last month. I've been doing it for a year now. And yeah, like that's really the community aspect of that, seeing other people finish it inspires you to make something. if like, for me, know, seeing someone submit to the challenge I'm running, it's like, I should probably make it. I should probably make something as well.

Brian Funk (01:21:03.765)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:21:04.92)

And yeah, like Weekly Beats as well, community for that. That's massive this year. I think there's like 440 something submissions, 450 submissions for the first week, which is huge for that. I did that for the first time back in 2016. And I think there was 200 or something for the first week. And that by the end of it was down to 50 people.

Brian Funk (01:21:17.493)

Wow.

Matt Tinkler (01:21:29.262)

and but yeah 450 people the first week of weekly beats is pretty crazy and yeah having that community of people it gives you that external motivation to actually go okay I should get something finished and you know that that can be in the form of a community that could be in the form of a mentor that could be in the form of um uh just like a friend that you have like an I have I have a mate that I catch up with every week we're a count of beta buddies like um

Brian Funk (01:21:29.535)

Wow.

Brian Funk (01:21:53.462)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:21:58.364)

So yeah, exactly. Yeah, kind of billiard buddies, kind of beta buddies. so yeah, just having someone that you can, or yeah, an external factor to ensure that you're pushing through on making music, if that's what you...

Brian Funk (01:21:58.818)

Account of beta buddies. Like accountability. That's good.

Matt Tinkler (01:22:22.218)

want to do is a really fantastic way to actually overcome that thing and be like, okay, I need to get something done. It needs to go out. I need to have something that's in a shareable state, whether it's finished or not.

Brian Funk (01:22:35.424)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:22:39.743)

Yeah, it is. I'm looking at our SoundCloud playlist. So I set up a music production club, January SoundCloud. So whenever anyone puts something on SoundCloud, which isn't everybody, I'll just add them to the playlist. And I've gotten through the first like seven and a half days. It's January 8th right now. And there's 160 tracks on here. That's it's wild.

Matt Tinkler (01:23:04.574)

Wow, that's crazy.

Brian Funk (01:23:08.905)

And last year, I found out how many tracks you could have in a SoundCloud playlist because of this, and it's 500. So we got to 500, it wouldn't let me add any more tracks, so I had to start at part two. And it looks like at our rate now, think, yeah, we should be getting, we're probably gonna need another, yeah. So it's pretty cool.

Matt Tinkler (01:23:16.726)

I'll see you there.

Matt Tinkler (01:23:26.944)

You'll hit that in no time.

Brian Funk (01:23:34.882)

just to see it, you know, lot of familiar names and some new names and it's six hours of music it says. It's six hours of new music and it's, there's a lot of good music. There's stuff in here like, I don't know. You're like, how did you do that in a day? Or like day after day, you're making something really awesome.

Matt Tinkler (01:23:45.054)

It's insane.

Matt Tinkler (01:23:55.499)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:24:02.219)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:24:02.261)

It's inspiring. And it does give you that feeling of like wanting to keep up with it and see if you can hang. Right? Can I do this too? You know, very motivating, but yeah, having even people you play with, like I play in a band, three piece rock band and we get together just about every week to play and

Matt Tinkler (01:24:08.338)

and

Totally.

Matt Tinkler (01:24:15.104)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:24:28.789)

We're playing, you know, we're all busy, we're all working and we're gonna get together for like three hours. So let's get down to business, let's do it. that has produced tons of great music and so much fun with my friends.

Matt Tinkler (01:24:30.006)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (01:24:47.338)

Yeah, I think it's a really good showcase that in a world where some people, like artists of all kinds, quite a lot of the time feel like, what's the point of putting my art out there?

Brian Funk (01:24:49.931)

Great by-product.

Matt Tinkler (01:25:15.668)

just hearing people like you say, you know, it's inspiring to me. Like that just shows you why you should put art out there. I think I mentioned something about that before. Like I'm a firm believer that I think you should put art out into the world, whether it's for commercial purposes or otherwise, but finding a way to show, to get your music or your visual art or whatever it is, just public somehow.

Brian Funk (01:25:31.541)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:25:40.34)

because you never know who it's gonna impact. And it could just be impacting another creative to inspire them to do something right the way through to just impacting someone who's just like, really love what you put out there. And it's just, it's awesome. Like...

Yeah, I think it's really important to put out your creative endeavours somehow. It doesn't need to be for commercial purposes, it doesn't need to be packaged in a commercial branded way, but if you have, it doesn't even need to be like widely public, it can just be to a group of friends, you know, like onto a Discord community or something like that. Cause it's, yeah, it's inspiring. And I think the more art there is in the world, the better the world is for it, really.

Brian Funk (01:26:29.642)

Yeah, I totally agree. yeah, I remember when you said that. I made a little note here to come back to that. Because you said you could leave it on your hard drive, but I think you should share it. I agree.

Matt Tinkler (01:26:38.645)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:26:44.572)

Yeah, what's gonna happen with it, who knows, right? And in most cases, probably not much. even if you put that little ripple in the water, like you said, and somebody else, even someone that likes to draw pictures decides, yeah, I'm gonna put a picture I made on Instagram. That's powerful, because then that's another ripple.

It's just good because we're in a world now where it's very easy to just consume, consume, consume. Social media, it's social media, but most people I think are just consuming, just scrolling. They're not actively. Most of the time I'm on social media, I'm not posting. I'm just kind of looking at stuff mindlessly. So to encourage people to participate.

Matt Tinkler (01:27:36.618)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:27:44.671)

just by an example, by being the example is really cool. Yeah, I told you I'm like a high school teacher and the students are on social media all the time, but very few of them are really participating in it. Maybe in their small friend groups, in their Snapchats or whatever, but I'm surprised.

Matt Tinkler (01:28:00.214)

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:28:07.902)

that there's not more interaction, more creation. You've got the tool to put yourself out there. It's such an amazing power. When I grew up and I was doing my drawings in school and cartoon characters that we used to make, me friends and I make comics, we could only show them to whoever we could hand it to. So now you can just distribute. It's so amazing and it is kind of a shame how few of us take part in that.

Matt Tinkler (01:28:20.075)

Mm.

Matt Tinkler (01:28:36.555)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:28:36.89)

Even though there are tens of thousands of songs uploaded every day, still, in the whole world, it's still a drop in the bucket of people that are actually doing it. By you doing it, by someone else doing it, might be enough to make somebody else say, hey, I could do something cool like that. I could share my recipe that I make meatballs with. Whatever.

Matt Tinkler (01:28:44.074)

hundreds of thousands.

Matt Tinkler (01:29:04.34)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:29:06.516)

Just be creative and sharing. It's cool.

Matt Tinkler (01:29:09.61)

Yeah, I reckon that's Yeah. Important to share. 100%.

Brian Funk (01:29:17.716)

Preaching to the choir,

Matt Tinkler (01:29:19.668)

Yeah, exactly. Well, hopefully someone listening to this, maybe, yeah, you've never shared your music before or whatever it is you do. Hopefully it inspires you to share something.

Brian Funk (01:29:22.13)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:29:31.37)

Well, you know what, Matt? 10 years from now, one of us might put this conversation on just for the hell of it. And we haven't put any music out in six years and be like, you know what? So it might even come back around.

Matt Tinkler (01:29:38.037)

Yeah.

Matt Tinkler (01:29:45.726)

It could very well do.

Brian Funk (01:29:51.905)

So maybe we'll wrap this up. You probably want to get your day started and my day is ending fast here in the past, here in the future over in Australia. But we should send people to Matt Tinkler Music on YouTube. That's a good spot to find you. Also, that's your website. Smart keeping that together, all the same. I think that's also your Instagram, right? Yeah, same thing.

Matt Tinkler (01:29:54.708)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Matt Tinkler (01:30:11.368)

Absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. It is, yep, Matt Tinkler music everywhere.

Brian Funk (01:30:22.214)

everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, I think if you're listening, check it out. There's a lot of really good stuff, lot of inspirational stuff, also technical how-tos and but yeah, not just here's what this button does, but here's something cool you can do with this button. I like that kind of tutorial a lot. That's the stuff you're doing.

Matt Tinkler (01:30:23.626)

Yeah, I just searched on Google.

Brian Funk (01:30:47.366)

And yeah, I think this will be out in time for the next Aspect Music Academy run that you're doing. said early February. We'll make sure it gets out in time for that so people can have a chance to join in.

Matt Tinkler (01:31:00.276)

Awesome. Yeah, cool. Yeah, no, thanks for having me Brian. has been really amazing. I love having chats like this.

Brian Funk (01:31:05.044)

Yeah, awesome talking to you. I knew it would be, but I didn't disappoint.

Matt Tinkler (01:31:09.576)

Yeah, well, I'm always happy to chat, you know, do this again sometime, because this is really cool. I love talking about creative process and music and just life and in general, it's always fascinating hearing people that are really passionate talking about their things and being passionate. Yeah, it's super cool. So I really appreciate you taking the time and inviting me on. It's been really cool.

Brian Funk (01:31:34.783)

Yeah, well thanks for being here. And thank you to everyone listening. If you want somebody that's inspired to help get you be inspired and be enthusiastic about making music with, Matt is your guy. So check him out, Matt Tinkler Music everywhere.

Matt Tinkler (01:31:52.854)

Sweet. Thanks, Brian. Cheers.

Aqeel and Tyler spoke to me about their collaboration on the new plug-in, and how they came to work together. We covered the creative process of developing plug-ins and some of the artistic choices and sacrifices made to help create a device that is inspiring and deep without being overwhelming. Tyler discussed the inspiration and creation process of his new album as Blankfor.ms called After the Town Was Swept Away.

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Outgrowth - https://aqeelaadamsound.com/b/outgrowth

• Aqeel Aadam Sound - https://aqeelaadamsound.com

• Blankfor.ms - https://www.blankfor-ms.com/

• After the Town Was Swept Away by Blankfor.ms - https://www.blankfor-ms.com/music/after-the-town-was-swept-away

• Aqeel Aadam Sound Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/aqeelaadamsound

• Aqeel's Personal Instagram – https://www.instagram.com/aqeel.aadam

• Aqeel's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@AqeelAadam

• Aqeel on Bandcamp - https://aqeelaadam.bandcamp.com

• Aqeel Aadam on Music Production Podcast #404 - https://brianfunk.com/blog/aqeel-aadam

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Brad and I had a great conversation about songwriting and the production of the Barr Brothers’ new album Let it Hiss. Brad shared how a minimalist approach, including a 4-string guitar, helped guide the songwriting and production of the new record. Brad even demonstrated his polyester thread trick on the guitar. Please welcome Brad Barr to the Music Production Podcast.

This episode is sponsored by Baby Audio and their Tekno drum synthesizer plug-in.  
Save 15% with the code: MPP15 - https://babyaud.io 

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• The Barr Brothers - https://thebarrbrothers.com

• Let it Hiss by The Barr Brothers - https://found.ee/letithiss

• Brad's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/bradbarr216/

• "Growing Up Sideways" by Brad Barr - https://vyd.co/BradBarrGrowingUpSidewaysInstrumental

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Jamuary is a powerful way to start your year with a creative bang!

In this episode, I share 7 tips that will help you make the most of Jamuary and maximize your productivity and creativity!

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Join the Music Production Club! - https://brianfunk.com/mpc

• My free #jamuary2026 Prompts - https://brianfunk.gumroad.com/l/jamuary2026

• My #Jamuary2026 Playlist - https://soundcloud.com/brianfunk/sets/jamuary-2026

• Music Production Club #Jamuary2026 Playlist - https://soundcloud.com/brianfunk/sets/mpc-jamuary-2026

• 31x Your Creativity with Jamuary 2025 - https://brianfunk.com/blog/31x-your-creativity

• Don't Lose Twice and 3 Book Recommendations - https://brianfunk.com/blog/dont-lose-twice

• Jamuary Lessons - https://brianfunk.com/blog/see-your-ideas-through

• My Most Profound Jamuary Insight - https://brianfunk.com/blog/my-most-profound-jamuary-insight-music-production-podcast-203

• Creative Strategies for Jamuary by Spooqs - https://spooqs.space/creative-strategies-for-jamnuary-2026/

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

7 Tips for a Successful #Jamuary2026

Imagine that this year was your most productive and creative year ever. You’d probably need to get off to a pretty good start, right? That’s why I like to start every year with Jamuary. Jamuary is a challenge to make music every single day during the month of January. It’s not about perfection. It’s not about making something great. It’s about showing up and creating. It’s about making something and then sharing it.

I didn’t invent Jamuary. I’ve traced it back to a few different folks. But it’s been something I’ve wholeheartedly embraced and have been doing for I think about seven or eight years now. And it’s one of my favorite times of year. It’s also one of the times I fear, because it is a big commitment. It does take a lot of energy. But it’s not impossible. And every year I do it, I wind up with a lot of music that I didn’t have before. A lot of the music I’ve released has started in Jamuary. Full albums even have started in Jamuary.

And I think it’s one of the most valuable things I do all year. And I really want to encourage you to do it. So I’ve got seven tips that I think will help you have a successful Jamuary.

1. Define Success

And the first is to define success. What does success even mean for Jamuary? It means that you showed up. That’s it. It doesn’t mean you made a hit song. It doesn’t mean you made something smart or something that’s going to go viral. It just means that you spent some time creating something. You made something. It wasn’t there before. Now it is.

I’ve always thought of that as a little bit like magic. It’s like you pull a rabbit out of the hat, except there’s no trick. There’s no sleight of hand. You just made something out of nothing. That’s what success is. You showed up. You made something. You focused on the process.

That’s really the only thing you can control anyway. You have no idea how good something is when you’re making it. There are stories of artists that wanted to leave a song off the record and it became a huge hit. You don’t know. So just show up, focus on the process, and know that that’s the best chance you have of making something you’re really proud of.

2. Build the Habit

Big things are just lots of little things. It’s snowing outside right now. And we’ve got a few inches on the ground. But if you look at any individual snowflake, it’s nothing. It melts as soon as you touch it. But over time, they all pile up. And that’s what your efforts in Jamuary do.

That’s what the music you make will do over time. It’s going to add up. And the more you show up and the more it becomes a habit, the easier it becomes. The ideas start to flow, not because you’re sitting around waiting for them, but because you’re already creating. That’s where the ideas come from.

I don’t think you make music because you have ideas. I think you have ideas because you make music. When you’re in the act of making it, the ideas come. So build that habit. Show up. And don’t worry about what the product is like. Just worry about showing up every day.

3. Lower Your Expectations

Number three is to lower your expectations. You don’t have to make something good or great or intelligent. You just have to make something. And if it’s not good, that’s okay. You’ll try again tomorrow.

You’re making music every single day. If you try to make something great every day, I think you’re going to block yourself. I think the pressure is going to be too high. And you’re not going to be able to perform. And a lot of times, when we feel like we’re blocked, it’s because we’re trying to impress. We’re trying to make something good. And it’s hard.

But if you just give yourself the freedom to make something bad, it’s really liberating. Because once you start and you hear it and it’s not great, you go, “Well, okay, how do I fix it?” And that’s how you get better.

I find in the Music Production Club Zoom meetings, we make music for 45 minutes and then share it. That little bit of pressure, that little bit of a deadline, that little built-in excuse, even, it gives us the freedom to just make something. Because we know there’s not that much time. We only have 45 minutes.

So if it’s not great, well, it’s okay. You only had 45 minutes. That’s the built-in excuse. But you’d be surprised how many great things have come out of those Zoom meetings. And I think it’s because of that pressure, that deadline, and that permission to just make something without worrying so much.

4. Get Organized

Number four is to get organized. Make sure your gear is set up. Have a spot where you can just make music. You don’t want to spend time setting up every day. You don’t want to have to rearrange your living room just to record something.

If you can, carve out a little space and just leave it set up. Make it easy. The fewer things in your way, the more likely you are to actually do it.

I also like to schedule it. What time of day are you going to work? If you decide now that you’re going to work at 7 PM every night, then it’s already decided. You’re not negotiating with yourself every day.

When 7 PM comes, you just do it. It’s not a question. “Am I going to make music today?” Of course you are. It’s 7 PM. That’s when you make music.

I also like to prepare some ideas ahead of time. Pick some genres you want to try. Pick some instruments you want to use. Find some samples. Find some loops. Get yourself started.

And to help with that, I made a prompt for every day of the month. It’s inspired by my book, The 5-Minute Music Producer. Every day has a quick activity and a creative mindset to explore. So you can just look at that prompt, get started, and maybe try something new.

5. Work Fast – Don’t Think Too Hard

Number five is to work fast and don’t think too hard. Music-making is just decision-making. That’s all it is. You’re just making decisions.

What sound should this be? What note should it be? What rhythm? What instrument? All of those are just decisions. So decide. And then decide again. And decide again.

I don’t even like to use the word “decide” because it sounds like you’re thinking. And you’re evaluating and analyzing. But that’s not how it should work. You should just know. And you do know. You just got to go with your instincts.

So don’t think too hard. Go fast. Be impulsive. That’s the practice of Jamuary. Make a move and then make another. And then make another.

You can always fix it later. But most of the time, you’re just reacting to what you just did. And that’s how music comes together.

6. Have a Backup Plan

Number six is to have a backup plan. You’re not going to feel like it every day. Some days you’re going to be tired. You’re going to be stressed. You’re going to be busy. That’s okay.

Just do something. Have something you can fall back on. For me, it’s picking up a guitar. Or maybe I’ll just play with the OP-1 or a plugin I like.

I’m just going to do something. And that counts. That’s all I have to do.

And if you miss a day, it’s okay. Just try not to miss two. I like to use a calendar and make Xs for each day I show up. And once I start building a streak, I don’t want to break it. It helps me stay motivated.

So plan ahead. Something is going to happen. You’re going to be short on time or have a gear problem. Be ready. Have a backup plan.

7. Use the Power of Community

And number seven is to use the power of community. Music-making is often a solo activity. But when you share your work and see what other people are doing, it’s really inspiring.

You see what’s possible. You see that it’s not impossible. And it motivates you to do it too.

When you post your music, you might inspire someone else. That’s powerful. And if you’re worried about negative comments, just know that most people are very supportive.

In the Music Production Club Discord, we have a whole thread just for Jamuary 2026. And it’s amazing to see what people are making. On days I don’t feel like making music, I just scroll through there. And suddenly, I want to make something too.

So whether you join the MPC or just use the hashtag #Jamuary2026 on Instagram, SoundCloud, or YouTube, try to make community part of the experience.

Closing Thoughts

And if you do join the Music Production Club, I’ve got a printable calendar, daily prompt cards, and some cool downloads and surprises waiting for you. One of those surprises is a new bonus pack from Perform Module called Bussification. It’s a collection of Ableton Live effect racks that simplify your mixing and make your tracks sound better, fast.

Normally it’s a $35 pack, but it’s free for MPC members this month. It’s an awesome tool for Jamuary because it helps your music sound more polished quickly.

I’d love for 2026 to be your best year of music-making yet. And I think Jamuary is the best way to start. In the MPC, we follow Jamuary with Finish February, where we take one of those sketches and finish it. Some of my favorite songs have come out of that process.

So please join us. Go to brianfunk.com/mpc and be part of it. Or just start making music and sharing it. That’s enough. That’s how it begins.

Thanks for listening to the Music Production Podcast.

Music producers produce music.

Let January be your month to make something human.

We need that now more than ever.

Would you like me to save this as a downloadable PDF, Word doc, or turn it into a blog post or newsletter?

Nutcracker Sugar Plum Fairy Celeste
Ableton Live Pack

The Nutcracker Sugar Plum Fairy Celeste is an Ableton Live Instrument Rack and Drum Rack made from samples of a celeste and nutcrackers.

Includes:

Multi-sampled Celeste with nutcracker mechanical noise.

Nutcracker Percussion Drum Rack.

Merry Christmas!

Requires Ableton Live 12.3 Intro or Above.

Gorgeous, Multi-Sampled Celeste with Nutcracker Flavor

The Nutcracker Sugar Plum Fairy Celeste Instrument Rack is made from multiple, high-quality celeste samples from stamperadam on FreeSound.org. Thanks to stamperadam for supplying these samples free to use however anyone wishes!

I built the samples into a rich and realistic sounding Ableton Live Instrument Rack. Use the 16 Macros to customize your sound and add effects.

I also added a little extra flavor by recreating the mechanical sounds of a celeste using samples of my growing nutcracker collection. These sounds trigger after a note has been played and can add some character and mystique to the celeste. Nut-Crackers and NutCr.Pitch Macro Controls allow you to adjust the volume and pitch of the nutcracker sounds.

The nutcracker samples are also playable as a percussion instrument in the Nutcracker Percussion Drum Rack.

Here’s a nice explanation of the celeste.

Merry Christmas and enjoy!

14 years of Christmas Ableton Live Packs:

Christmas-themed Ableton Live Packs is a tradition here!

2011: Christmas Tree Synth- Growing up, I can remember many quiet Christmas nights, listening to the sound of the simple melodies playing out of a tiny speaker connected to my family's Christmas lights. This instrument was made from samples of those lights. It's a tiny sound with a lot of soul. It takes me back to my youth!

2012: Charlie Brown X-Mas Tree Synths - These are actually some of my favorite instruments to play around with. They are made from a Charlie Brown snow globe. It's basically a little music box sound, but I've had a little fun making it somewhat of a granular synth.

2013: Jingle Bells - I have a set of sleigh bells that I sampled for these instruments. There's instruments that represent the actual sound of the sleigh bells, as well as melodic ones. Check out the video which features Jingle Bells, played on Push, using actual jingle bells.

2014: Christmas Bells - This collection is made with the sounds of church bells from both samples and synthesis. The Yamaha DX7 bells sounds meets real bell samples for a pretty nice sound.

2015: Little Drummer Boy - This is another instrument made from an ornament my family has had synth I can remember. The sound of it is a bit like a music box. I've also sampled the cranking sound for some cool percussion instruments. This is another of my all time favorites.

2016: 12 Synths of Christmas - These 12 synths were inspired by different aspects of the holiday season and were programmed with Live's Operator. They cover a range of sounds, and I think they are also a pretty cool exploration of the capabilities of Operator.

2017: Wrapping Paper Instruments - I recorded Christmas wrapping paper being ripped, torn, folded, and taped to make the percussive Drum Rack. I got a tone by slapping the end of the long cardboard tube the paper is rolled on. That tone became a kick drum sound and a playable Melodic Instrument Rack.

2018: This year we were on Santa’s naughty list :(

2019: Santa’s Firetruck - Each year, the local fire department teams up with jolly ol' Saint Nick and escorts Santa on his sleigh around town. I managed to capture the sound of the merry commotion and turn it into two soft and sweet Ableton Live Instruments.

2020: Christmas Bears - 3 instruments made from samples of my friend J-Rod's Christmas bear holiday ornament. It's a music box-style ornament that plays "Here Comes Santa Clause." The instruments are made from 3 isolated single notes.

2021: Santa’s Angel - 3 Ableton Live Instrument Racks made from samples of vintage animatronic Santa and Angel.

2022: Rudolph the Red-Nosed Ableton Live Pack - An Ableton Live Instrument Rack built from a sample of Rudolph’s nose from the 1964 Christmas special, Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.

2023: Christmas Tree Percussion - I sampled ornaments from my parents' Christmas tree and ran them through XLN's Life plug-in.  12 diverse percussion loops and 12 Drum Racks.

2024: Christmas Fireplace - The Christmas Fireplace Ableton Live Pack makes any instrument sound as if it were being played next to a warm fireplace. Capture the spirit of a Christmas fire and add it to your music!

Cat Piano Ableton Live Pack

A magical toy Cat Piano inside Ableton Live!

Features Bell, Banjo, Organ, Piano, and of course, Cat sounds!

Also includes Cat Piano Drum Rack.

16 Macros and 8 Macro Variation Presets for easily dialing in new sounds.

Morph between the 5 included sounds or set to play randomly with each note.

How to Get the Cat Piano Ableton Live Pack:

• Cat Piano is part of the Toy Synths Ableton Live Pack.

• Both Cat Piano and Toy Synths are included with a Music Production Club Membership!

Requires Ableton Live 11.3 Intro of Above and a love of adorable, fun sounds.

In this conversation, we talk about the routines, strategies, and mindset shifts that help Josh stay creative while managing the demands of everyday life. He shares how working within time constraints forces him to be more focused and playful, how constraints fuel creativity, and why creative output doesn’t need to be perfect to be meaningful. We also talk about nostalgia, world-building, and how developing recurring characters and themes across mediums can unlock a deeper connection to your work.

This episode is a simulcast with The Thirteenth Hour Podcast, and it was a real pleasure to swap perspectives with someone who thinks deeply about creativity across disciplines.

This episode is sponsored by Baby Audio, who are running a huge Black Friday sale until December 8, 2025.  
Save an additional 15% with the code: MPP15 - https://babyaud.io 

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Takeaways:

• Time Constraints Can Be Creative Superpowers - Josh works in short, focused bursts—15 minutes at a time—which keeps him consistent and prevents overwhelm.

• Build a World, Not Just a Project - By creating music, stories, and visuals around a central fictional world, Josh finds new ways to stay inspired and expand his creative universe.

• Let Go of Perfect - A finished piece that’s “good enough” beats the idea that never leaves your head. Josh treats creativity like a muscle—small, steady reps matter.

• Routines Protect Creativity - Morning journaling, evening music sessions, and other small rituals help Josh build momentum and reduce decision fatigue.

• Nostalgia as a Lens, Not a Limitation - Josh embraces his love of ’80s aesthetics not as a gimmick, but as a creative compass that helps him stay aligned with his artistic voice.

Links:

• Joshua's Books: https://amzn.to/4a33uN0

• Joshua's Music: https://joshuablum.bandcamp.com

• Joshua's Web Site - https://13thhr.wordpress.com

• 13th Hour Podcast - https://open.spotify.com/show/2WqY0n2zFra3Ni2cIiC8YK

• X-Twitter - https://x.com/13thhr

• Instagram- https://www.instagram.com/the13thhr.ost/

• Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/joshua.blum.714/

• Bluesky -https://bsky.app/profile/13thhr.bsky.social

• Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@the13thhr

• Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/13thhr

• Tiktok - https://www.tiktok.com/@13thhr

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:04.45)

How's it going, Josh?

Josh (00:05.967)

That's going great. I'm really happy to be able to talk with you. I, yeah, yeah. You have a meeting of the minds on a Saturday morning. We're recording this the morning after Halloween. So hopefully anybody who's listening, nobody's house got tepee'd or whatever. I don't know if people still do that.

Brian Funk (00:09.356)

Yeah, me too.

Brian Funk (00:16.686)

Yep.

Brian Funk (00:22.518)

I bet they do. didn't get it happening here. It was very windy, kind of dangerously windy here in New York, Long Island. So there weren't a lot of people out braving the elements.

Josh (00:27.48)

Yeah.

Josh (00:32.547)

gotcha. Okay.

Josh (00:37.289)

Okay, you know, I don't know if you if you have seen it but there's this there's a scene in the movie ET

Do you know there's like that scene of the Halloween scene where they kind of all walk around and it's kind of like setting. It's a California setting rate, but it's like it's like probably five o'clock hasn't quite gotten dark yet and you can see all the kids in the costumes and stuff like that. So I always think of that when I think of Halloween and I happen to I live in a fairly rural area, but we live in a place where there there are there are more houses and stuff like that. And it kind of it kind of looked like that last night, which was pretty it wasn't quite as

Brian Funk (00:46.571)

E.T.A.

Josh (01:15.025)

crowded as that but it was a little, it had rained a lot the night before and you kind of saw like in the background you know it was sort of like the dark clouds above and there's a sunset and then these bunch of kids walking around you know with their parents and stuff like that. That's the only difference I think between the ET thing is like now you have parents that are walking around with the kids. Whereas before we, there were no parents but yeah.

Brian Funk (01:35.03)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:40.706)

Yeah, just come back eventually. Dinner, dark, whatever it was.

Josh (01:45.167)

Yeah, yeah, was, R10 actually has it, it starts at five and it ends at eight. They kind of have like a set thing, I guess. And I don't remember that ever being the case when I was a kid.

Brian Funk (01:58.71)

Is that for trick-or-treating?

Josh (02:00.303)

Yeah, and then like, and we kind of always knew like if the house didn't have any lights on, I mean they probably just weren't home and there was no point in going, but they actually say, the township says like, leave your lights on to show that, you're open to people coming to your room. It's much more formal in a way.

Brian Funk (02:16.685)

Hmm. Okay.

Brian Funk (02:22.347)

Yeah, we never had that. don't think there's any kind of word on that these days either. Yeah, you just went and if the house is dark, you probably knew not to waste your time waiting for someone to not come to the door.

Josh (02:33.739)

Right, right, right, Yeah. There's a sort of a loop. It's probably about a mile around the neighborhood and usually, like my son is a little older at this point. He's eight now, but I mean still, like once he's done like a loop, he's pretty much good. And my daughter's a little older than that, so she kind of wants to try to hit more houses and you know.

Brian Funk (03:00.193)

Yeah, branch out a little. I can go faster than you guys.

Josh (03:00.815)

get more candy and yeah yeah yeah so uh but yeah yeah i think i we i don't know if we could probably talk about halloween but i mean i think we're here to talk about some other things like music and creative stuff and stuff like that so i i have to say i love your background

It's not a background, but in back of you, I guess for the people who are just hearing this on audio, all the lights and the gadgets and the effect pedals and stuff like that.

Brian Funk (03:26.359)

Yeah, the toys.

Brian Funk (03:33.612)

Yeah, I've got a bunch of synthesizers and some audio effects and the interface connected to the computer and everything. It's all kind of right within reach and it's all connected too. So I really just have to kind of open up a track. I use Ableton Live and open up a track and just, I can pull in like any of those sounds real fast.

Josh (03:39.865)

Yeah.

Josh (03:44.045)

Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (03:52.278)

huh.

Brian Funk (03:59.176)

And it's really because I guess I'm lazy. Because if I have to connect the cables and find it and figure out which audio channel it's coming through, that might be enough time for me to decide, I either don't feel like doing this today or...

Josh (04:02.351)

Hahaha

Josh (04:16.879)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (04:18.477)

I'll just use like a plugin or something that's a little bit easier to call up. I find the creative process and all of that to be so fragile. You know, it doesn't take much to derail me from doing it. If there's a chore to be done, I'll do the chore. If there's some other dish to be washed or some other excuse to avoid doing this, even though I love it so much, I'll often go that way.

Josh (04:22.243)

Right.

Josh (04:28.249)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Josh (04:38.147)

Yeah.

Josh (04:45.604)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (04:48.431)

I think it's because of the unknown. You I don't know if I'm gonna be successful in what I do today. I don't know if it's gonna work out and be productive. I know I will vacuum the floor though, and that will get done and it will be clean. And you know, all those little other things that pop up along the way. So I try to keep the friction from starting to be as little as possible.

Josh (04:55.151)

Sure, sure.

Josh (05:01.263)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Josh (05:16.515)

Yeah, that's nice. I recently decided to create kind of a little nook where...

I would have most of the music stuff and it's sort of, you can't see it from the camera angle here, but it's kind of in that direction. It's a keyboard and guitars and stuff like that. And then the problem I had before was that the cables sort of weren't long enough to actually reach a computer. So I created a little area because the way I would tend to record was I would play everything kind of on instrument's

first and then kind of get that more or less right and then kind of record it from there. so I was like, you know, think I want to this year, that was a goal I remember for this year, 2025 was like, I'm going to finally delve into trying to do some of this electronically. And I put it off for a really long time, for years, And

I felt it was finally time. So I needed a set up that I was still kind of fiddling around with it. But that's been sort of this year's project.

Brian Funk (06:34.465)

Yeah, I think the best thing you can do with those types of things is just take any step at all. And even if it's buying a longer cable or even a little folding table that you can put in some place so that you just sort of force yourself to actually take the step. Even if it's not going to probably be what you wanted and what you imagine it to be, the full setup. But...

Josh (06:41.337)

Yeah, yeah.

Josh (06:47.491)

Right. Yeah.

Josh (06:53.667)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (06:59.105)

Right, sure.

Brian Funk (07:01.483)

I don't think we really know what that looks like until we start putting it together anyway. Once you start moving stuff around and getting your spaces together, then you start to realize like, Ooh, it'd be nice if I could have this or that or do that rather than trying to buy everything. And then, all right, let me put it all together. I think that's a way we procrastinate too. I need all the right stuff first.

Josh (07:06.137)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Josh (07:15.575)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't...

Josh (07:21.687)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. I know you talk about that someone on your show, and I always thought that it's kind of interesting because, you walk into a music store and there's endless stuff to buy. Right. And if we don't have it near where we live now, but.

One place I used to live had a guitar, like a guitar center, you I don't know if you have them near where you are. it's like, you know, you can pick up all the guitars and play. Yeah, pretty much. Right. And then, but then there's like the section where they have like the keyboards and all this, all the little digital thingies that you can get. And so it's, I mean, I think.

Brian Funk (07:45.515)

Yeah, that's all we got left really.

Josh (08:02.999)

it's possible to spend like a ton of money on this stuff and actually not doing anything with it. I think for many people or they get it and they don't necessarily use it. I'm just curious in your take on that, you know, since, you know, this is something that you work with people on, that, do you notice that tendency? Like, and I guess the same could be true for podcasting too, though you need a lot less, but there's still plenty of stuff you can buy. And do you notice that tendency? They got, I got to buy all this and I got to have this perfect,

Brian Funk (08:07.531)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (08:29.386)

Yeah.

Josh (08:32.913)

you know, and set up and sound and all this other stuff and then they use all the time just getting it kind of set up and then when it actually comes time to make something, they don't have time for it or they burn out the steam from that. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that?

Brian Funk (08:37.782)

Definitely.

Brian Funk (08:52.234)

Yeah, it's easy to become a collector of things. This could be all kinds of stuff. It could be exercise. I need the right clothes. need to get the right gym equipment or weight or whatever. But with the musical stuff, you can walk into your local music store or guitar center or whatever and...

Josh (08:54.551)

Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah.

Josh (09:00.748)

Right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (09:13.642)

Yeah, it can be overwhelming. And it's actually worse now because then you can also go on Sweetwater, you can go on Amazon, and you can see every single thing that is available to purchase in the whole world. And it can make you feel like I need this thing, I need that thing. At least years ago, I could only go into the Guitar Center. You know, there wasn't as much of the online shopping when I really first started.

Josh (09:20.91)

Hmm.

Josh (09:25.067)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You're right.

Josh (09:36.418)

Right, sure.

Brian Funk (09:42.347)

But yeah, thinking like I need this new tool to be able to get to this point. I need the proper microphone and I need this. You can just come up with all of that stuff. Every single step. My guitar strings need to be different and everything can be a whole important detail that probably at the end of the day is unnoticeable on most recordings.

Josh (09:56.685)

You

Brian Funk (10:08.788)

I think it's a form of avoiding doing it. I've seen that in myself. I've been a collector of things. When I first got a computer to make music, was plugins.

Josh (10:22.745)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (10:22.9)

scour the dark alleys of the internet for ways to download everything I could find of learning how to crack software and realizing like after a while I'm not making any music and I have all this all the software that I don't know how to use just sitting on my computer and it's paralyzing now I have too much every time you add a new thing to your setup that sort of sets you back in a way because you have to learn it you have to figure out how to incorporate it

Josh (10:27.567)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (10:41.614)

Yeah.

Josh (10:50.019)

Yeah. Right.

Brian Funk (10:51.776)

how to use it, how to make the most of it. that's you not making the music, making the song. I mean, of course, like it's fun and it can be very inspiring to get something new. But I also try to be really sensitive to when I'm really just avoiding the hardest part, which is trying to create.

Josh (10:59.533)

Right, that's true.

Josh (11:17.709)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (11:18.656)

the scary part, the part I don't know if can. I know I can order it and it'll be here. I know I can go to the store and buy something, but just like the chores, I don't know if I can make the music today.

Josh (11:23.479)

It's true, yeah.

Josh (11:30.882)

Right, right, yeah.

I think I heard some statistic, and I know if this is correct, so I might be misquoting this, but it was something like just with a computer, a basic computer, people spend about 20 % of their time using a computer just getting it to work properly, or just fiddling around with something because it doesn't quite work the way it should, which I don't know if it's quite that high, but it does feel like that probably is accurate to some degree, like a sizeable percentage of your time.

is devoted to that. So for example, like I wanted to, I'm standing right now in front of a laptop. This is where I often will record, but I wanted to try my other setup, the computer that I use for making the music and stuff like that, so right behind me. And...

It crashed when I turned it on this one. It crashed. I was like, you know, I'm just not going to deal with it right now. It's, I'll do something that I'm used to, but I mean, it's a great example, right? You know, they had spent a lot of time trying to get the equipment to work properly and it's great when it works, but it can be frustrating. especially, you know, when it doesn't and you're trying to, you're, you're spending, expending energy on something that you'd like to use for something else.

Brian Funk (12:49.952)

You get really caught up in that kind of maintenance stuff or setup stuff. You want it to be all perfect and ready to go. And yeah, like sometimes the things just don't work and it's mysterious. And you find out your software is no longer compatible with the new upgrade on the OS on your computer or all, mean, a million things. need a new driver. I try to.

Josh (12:53.188)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (12:58.095)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (13:12.109)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (13:16.128)

set myself up with things like templates within my audio recording software or like I said have everything like already connected so that

Josh (13:19.417)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (13:28.714)

I'm not figuring stuff out. I got a label maker, which was a breakthrough because I put it on the cables. You know, this cable is connected or something like maybe a color code even, but just saying like what number input this is on the other end or what this is connected. And even on my USB cables, one says HD for the hard drive for when I need to back up. because I've spent probably

Josh (13:33.113)

Hmm.

Josh (13:38.969)

that's a good idea. Yeah.

Josh (13:45.933)

Right, right, right.

Josh (13:53.711)

That's a good idea, yeah.

Brian Funk (13:59.026)

weeks of my life on the floor, like tracing cables under tables and trying to figure out where they're all going. And it tends to happen the most when I have someone with me that's ready to work or I want to show, check this out, this really cool thing. hold on, hold on. me, let me, need to, okay. Get a flashlight and figure out what's wrong.

Josh (14:01.655)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Josh (14:12.673)

Right, right, of course, yeah.

I gotta get it. Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you play live? Because I was wondering, sometimes I think about, like for my last album, I was thinking about, was like, well, people do these listening party kind of things. I was like, well, maybe I could do something live or whatever. But the biggest barrier I have found is not...

the actual doing it or finding the venue with all that can be its own thing, but it's actually lugging all your junk around, the setup and like, it works fine where it's set up, but then you have to take it and then set it up somewhere else. then, don't know, it's just that you can do it obviously, which is kind of a hassle. And I find that that part, the hassle of doing it is like, I don't feel like doing it.

Brian Funk (15:10.601)

Yeah, so I do a couple different types of playing live. One is with three piece rock band where I play guitar and sing. And another is, is like a solo electronic musician. And there is a bit of a theme in how I approach those setups. And it's kind of about efficiency.

Josh (15:25.099)

Okay, yeah. Yeah.

Josh (15:30.998)

Yeah.

Josh (15:35.353)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (15:37.008)

So with guitar, you could have dozens of pedals, giant amps and all that. I found myself a nice, I think it's a 10 inch speaker. It's a Supro tube amp. It's not too big. It's maybe like a 13 inch TV from back in the day.

Josh (15:41.721)

Yeah.

Josh (15:52.811)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sir.

Brian Funk (15:56.044)

You know, something relatively small, but it's loud enough for most venues and anything bigger, you'd probably mic it anyway. So it does the job well. And then the pedal board is all connected and it fits right in a little bag. And that size of that pedal board determined how many pedals I can have. And it's kind of small. I think I have like, I think there's like five pedals and one's a tuner, one's a noise suppressor. So it's not even really doing anything to the sound.

Josh (16:03.234)

Yeah.

Josh (16:09.679)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (16:15.169)

Okay.

Josh (16:19.885)

Yeah. Uh-huh.

Brian Funk (16:26.091)

except cleaning it up, guess. And then I can carry that and my guitar and my amp all in one trip. Like I'm backpacking, you know, kind of I'm settled down a little, but yeah, I can make the trip, which is great because sometimes, you know, I'm traveling alone. And that's actually the same thing with the electronic setup, too. I've got...

Josh (16:34.968)

nice, Yeah, two, two, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh (16:46.67)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:54.475)

I said it before, I'm passing quick, but having a table. I bought a table which folds up nice and flat and it also has adjustable legs so it can go higher. So I like it at like a countertop height. I'm kind of tall, so regular tables I'm hunching over and that's really uncomfortable. So this goes, I can stand up straight. It's like ergonomically comfortable.

Josh (16:58.819)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Josh (17:06.617)

Josh (17:12.813)

Yeah. Yeah, I have the same problem. Yeah.

Josh (17:22.489)

Hmm, never thought of that.

Brian Funk (17:23.803)

And the limitation for my gear is it has to fit on the table. And most of that stuff I can fit into a backpack and another bag, like a duffel bag, and then carry the table. And I'm good to go. It fits in the car. And yeah, that's important because especially if I go into, say, like New York City, Brooklyn to go and play.

Josh (17:29.325)

Yeah, sure.

Josh (17:35.897)

Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (17:49.123)

Right.

Brian Funk (17:50.14)

Some of these places where you're parking half a mile from the venue and you're lucky you got that spot So I don't want to have to Take half my stuff drop it off in the venue and then leave it unattended To go basically a mile round trip to get the rest of it I mean those were considerations Yeah, and and it was

Josh (17:54.979)

Right. Right, yeah.

Josh (18:04.609)

Yeah. Yeah. Right. I'm just gonna get tired thinking of it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Brian Funk (18:17.139)

Because yeah, I wanted to be able to set up quick and be in and out quick because you also usually don't have a lot of time in between sets to get ready and all of that. So everything I can do to make that a little bit easier is a real consideration. And maybe even to the extent of like, I'm not going to have as many toys and tools in this live performance, but that all that builds me.

Josh (18:25.229)

Yeah, right.

Josh (18:41.399)

Right, Yeah.

Brian Funk (18:45.333)

kind of like a little fenced in area to be creative, a little sandbox or something. Because if I could bring everything I want, I'd probably have so much stuff and all that dilemma of like, how do I want to do this? What do I want to use for this? Like all that's out the window when you've really eliminated options.

Josh (18:48.279)

Right. Yeah.

Josh (19:00.385)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Josh (19:07.107)

Yeah, like how many things do you really need at the end of the day? How many effects pedals? Right? I you need couple. Yeah, I think I was thinking one time I played at a street fair and it was kind of an all-day thing. I think I took...

Brian Funk (19:10.773)

Probably less than we think.

Josh (19:27.597)

I took my synth and I think maybe I took a amp as well for a guitar. But then I remember it started to rain in the middle of the day and I had to get everything out of the way because know the electronics and stuff like that.

I remember I pared it down even further. But even that, wasn't that much stuff, but I think I put it on a dolly and I rolled it because, you I think the other consideration is that there's never enough outlets for what you want, right? Or at least I found.

Brian Funk (20:00.746)

I always bring a power strip and an extension cord. You kind of have to assume like you're not going to have that stuff because a lot of times you won't.

Josh (20:03.065)

Yeah, right.

You're not going to have it. and you need like whatever you need is not the outlets going to be far away from wherever you're going to.

Brian Funk (20:14.158)

or even if the venue has it, it's going to take time away from your setup to get it and to find it in an old milk crate somewhere in the back.

Josh (20:20.706)

Yeah.

Josh (20:25.143)

Right, right, right, yeah. I don't know, that's a side of it that I personally find kind of stressful, the logistical, lugging all the stuff, the setting up and all that kind of stuff, because you're usually under time pressure and it's like, ugh, it's like, I joke, you know.

Brian Funk (20:44.136)

Yeah, I can understand that. I can understand that being enough to make you not want to... That's why my stuff's all connected down here, right? That's... I mean, even... I've got these...

Josh (20:52.015)

Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (20:57.716)

They're, you plug them into the outlet. They're like Siri enabled outlet things. So I don't know. It's just, it's just a little tiny box. You plug into the outlet, then you plug your cord in and all it does is turn that, that, outlet on and off. And you can, you can ask Siri to

Josh (21:03.299)

Yeah, sure.

Josh (21:10.701)

Right.

Josh (21:16.227)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (21:18.846)

turn it on and off for you. So I can come down here and ask Siri, trying not to activate her right now as I'm talking to you, but ask her to turn on the studio for me and everything goes on. It's the difference though of 15 seconds of me just reaching down for three or four different power strips, but it sometimes is the difference. It really is.

Josh (21:20.184)

interesting. Yeah.

Josh (21:26.081)

Yeah.

Josh (21:31.087)

Nice, yeah, nice.

Josh (21:40.27)

Right.

Josh (21:44.937)

Yeah, I believe it. I believe it. I believe it, yeah.

Brian Funk (21:48.874)

It's amazing how small a barrier can trip you up.

Josh (21:53.57)

Right, right. I know for me, what I, initially, cause I started out, you know, do everything was kind of acoustic, but I always wanted to do like synthesize stuff because.

Brian Funk (22:00.682)

you

Josh (22:09.391)

The music that I heard in my head was sort of more 80s-ish and grew up in the 80s and so probably no surprise, but but I didn't have the sort of setup for that and getting all the What I thought would be the equipment to do that was was just I don't know there was it there was less kind of stuff to most places to kind of learn about all this stuff then and so

But I kind of really started delving into that. There was a time after my first child was born when, I don't know why I chose to do this, but I had written.

You know, my podcast is called the 13th Hour Podcast. I so it was a book. It's the first book that I published called The 13th Hour. And for some reason, I'd written that a draft of that book, an early, early draft of that book when I was.

after high school, actually. The summer after I graduated from high school. I was like, I want to do a project. I want to do something with that time. And I decided I was going to write this book. So it was just for me. I never had any intention of doing anything with it. I just wanted to have a copy. I could kind of hold in my hand. And then fast forward a few decades and then.

I had slowly added ideas here and there and I had a period of time when I was kind of in between jobs essentially and I was essentially staying at home with my daughter and I had a fair amount of time or I thought I would have a fair amount of time during the day. I didn't actually have that much time. But sometimes when she would nap,

Josh (23:56.78)

I would say, okay, you know, I want to do more with this. And I decided to publish the book then. It's probably the worst time actually in retrospect to do it when you have a newborn. But it was what it was. that's when I also started my podcast because I would hold her when she was napping and I would read a draft of the book.

to proofread it and I thought I would record it because I'd heard of these things called podcasts and I didn't really know what that was. That was 2014 so it was a little bit, it was there around obviously but they were still sort of the things that people would, you know, download off someone's website or they might charge you for these episodes and stuff like that. So I made a point, it was like, this is gonna be a free podcast because...

I like, I don't know if anybody's gonna listen to this thing. was mainly for my own proofreading. So sometimes she would sleep for 20 minutes, sometimes she'd sleep for two hours, and I could record something and edit, I guess, at the same time. But I found that it was really hard to write for any stretch of time without interruption when she was awake, because you're always...

you know, was a newborn, needs something. And you know, obviously you have to attend to him, just go play in the corner. you know, can't really do that. So.

Eventually when I just got used to kind of putting the writing side of it aside because I found that when I would write, I would get sort of sucked into it and I would find myself getting kind of frustrated with the interruptions and there were constant interruptions. And so was like, you know, I'm just not going to do that right now. I'm to do that at a different time. And when she got a little bit older, she could sit up and kind of crawl around and stuff like that.

Josh (25:58.0)

I would just play music with her, know, something like guitar or something like that. She could kind of hum along or she would, you know.

strum some of the strings of the guitar or whatever when I was doing it. But then I discovered that because I could make essentially music tracks on my keyboard relatively quickly and she could be kind of occupied doing something else, that that's something I could do that was creative that fit within that time frame and also allowed me to be there watching her, interacting with her, but not just sort of sucked into this fantasy world that I was creating in front of a computer.

You know, which is by kind of definition It's kind of exclusive right? You're just staring at a screen. You're not interacting with other things around you and so that's kind of that was probably like 2014 or something like that 15 and that's when I got into doing the like more I guess like electronic music because I could do it on a a keyboard

I could build tracks, and the keyboard has a sequencer on there, build tracks there, and just do it totally in the absence of computer, other than the little screen on the keyboard itself. But I could do it kind of with her, and she could kind of be a part of it in a way.

Brian Funk (27:10.482)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (27:22.023)

Would you say writing is more your primary outlet creatively?

Josh (27:28.077)

I don't know. To be honest with you, I think it's odd that I started off with writing because I think for me when I originally came up with the idea for the story, it's a fantasy story. It was kind of influenced by, you know, 80s sci-fi and fantasy movies I liked when I was a kid, Never Any Story, Last Starfighter.

you know, Labyrinth, Rocketeer, those kind of movies like that I would watch over and over and over again. I was like, want to write something that's kind of influenced by this, but obviously different. And but I didn't really think of the words first, this actual syntax of it. I tended not to think of I would think of things like the moving picture or often the music. I would have the music kind of.

that would kind of almost dictate the scene. So it has the idea of what I wanted to sound like if it were like a, I guess, almost like a movie soundtrack. And then I would write according to that, if that makes any sense. I don't know how other people do this typically. think as I've, you know, I often will talk to writers and stuff like that on my show. And I've obviously met many in other parts, you know, day to day life, but.

Everybody has a different kind of thing, I've never entirely been able to explain it very well because I think most people kind of think a little bit differently, but it often was the music was what happened first or a picture would happen first. So I drew pictures and stuff like that to put in the story because that's what I saw first. It wasn't the actual descriptive part. So that often came, that took more work to do. And I think that's why

I get maybe sucked into it more, I don't know, when I do the writing part of it. Because I'm picturing everything kind of in my head first and then it's the actual process of translating into words is, it takes more work, I think.

Brian Funk (29:21.533)

Right.

Josh (29:34.167)

So the music actually kind of came a little bit easier in a way. what I guess I'm trying to say is that they're kind of synergistic. Like so most of the music that I make, with a few exceptions, like soundtracks to the books.

Brian Funk (29:51.71)

Yeah, that's cool. I guess you just sort of made me realize too, when you're doing fantasy writing, maybe more so than a lot of other kind of writing too, there's so much world building that happens. You got to set up the reality of this world, the rules of the world, what magic is allowed and what's not and all of that. So I could see how...

Josh (30:08.621)

Right, sure.

Josh (30:13.337)

Sure, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (30:17.939)

coming up with some of the more atmospheric elements like the music and the sounds and the pictures, the visuals might even have to happen before you can start coming up with the story and the drama between the characters.

Josh (30:32.975)

That might be true. I never quite thought of it that way. I think I was influenced a lot by the a lot. Do you know the films by John Hughes? You know, the teen movies from the 80s, know, 16 Candles and some kind of wonderful and Breakfast Club and stuff like that. You know, those are play would play on the TV a lot. You know, as a kid and. One of the things I really liked about those films is that, you know.

Brian Funk (30:44.944)

yeah, yeah.

Josh (31:00.225)

In some ways, not a lot actually happens. A lot of it's about, there's sort of character studies in a way, like this is about this particular person. You get to know these individual quirky characters quite well. know, 16 candles, right? The main character, their family forgets her birthday. And so you get to know her thoughts about, you know, what's going on in her head.

some kind of wonderful, you know, it's about a guy who likes art and he lives in a part of town that's, not where the cool kids are, right? And so you kind of get, but I think the often the dialogue between those characters is kind of makes the movie. And then the part that I always thought was the,

I mean, at the best part, maybe to me, was the best part was the music because they often had a lot of those movies had great soundtracks and I don't, you know, they would pick the songs that would or some of the incidental music like that was often not released on the albums. Sadly, I think they would often make these sort of like incidental little tracks that maybe they were like 30 seconds or something like that. They would play during particular scenes. And for me, I always really liked those those little

Brian Funk (31:53.31)

Yeah.

Josh (32:16.209)

Yeah, they were often like keyboard bits or things like that. They would kind of set the tone for what they wanted to convey in the film. they very, maybe now you can find some of it, but most of the time it was not on the soundtrack that you could actually buy at the time.

So that's kind of how I thought of a lot of these tracks that I was making and how I tended to write those scenes. would kind of picture, or I don't know, know what you would call it. I would have the music or that kind of incidental music in my head and then would kind of craft the scene based on that.

Brian Funk (32:54.749)

That's cool.

It's a specific type of music actually you're referring to that. Well, I mean like the John Hughes movie soundtrack. I think for a lot of us that grew up in that time period, it's just baked into our experience. And when I started exploring synthesizers and vintage synths, cause that came later for me after guitar and other kinds of music. There were some of them where I'd play them and be like, my God, this sounds like planes, trains and automobiles.

Josh (33:00.139)

Is it? Is it? Okay. sure, yeah. Yeah.

Josh (33:17.849)

Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (33:26.775)

Great. Right. I think he was the I think he I think so. think he was I can't always keep keep track of which ones he wrote and which ones he directed. But I know he was involved in that one. Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:26.955)

Sounds like,

Brian Funk (33:36.489)

Right. Yeah. But yeah, like those kind of segue parts, usually when the character is going through some revelation and soul searching. Yeah, like some of those little musical clips, the sounds are so... I guess they're time stamped, but there's such like a nostalgia feeling I get from that stuff. And it creates the kind of...

Josh (33:46.415)

Right,

Josh (33:59.662)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (34:05.058)

They're everyday things, but they're also kind of fantasy versions of the everyday experiences. A lot of those movies. Kind of the, you know, hyped up version of high school. know, the thing you think high school's gonna be when you're a kid compared to what it actually is.

Josh (34:09.273)

Sure. Sure. Yeah.

Josh (34:17.559)

Sure, yeah.

Josh (34:22.763)

Right, right, sure. Yeah, I think, you know, at the time, you know, you couldn't often find the movie, right, if you wanted to have the movie, you know, to watch. So, I mean, I the best you could do is maybe you could try to tape it off the TV if if, if, if, if you managed to catch it in time or you could find, sometimes you could find the soundtrack.

And I always loved a lot of those movie soundtracks. I distinctly remember in many, many cases when I figured out how to do this, holding basically a tape recorder next to the TV and just trying to capture whatever I could. right? And it was lousy. mean, looking back, the quality, of course, was horrendous.

Brian Funk (35:01.434)

huh.

Josh (35:12.269)

I guess it didn't matter as much at that time. I don't know, I didn't necessarily think of it. That's all you could get, right? Taping it off, and sometimes if I knew what the, this was pre-internet of course, so I could rarely ever figure out the actual name of the song. In some cases, the music didn't have any name. was just.

Brian Funk (35:20.456)

That's best we could get, yeah.

Josh (35:34.928)

I don't know, that part of the movie where they play this particular thing and had, it was not when they released the score or whatever, was deemed on, you know, sort of incidental, guess, right? You know, so they didn't put it on there. So there was no name. So I didn't know what a lot of those things were called for a long time. And in some cases, if we taped something off the TV, we didn't tape the credits because, you know.

Brian Funk (36:00.508)

Yeah, that was enough. Yeah.

Josh (36:02.135)

No idea. No idea who actually did it. And if I had a name, it probably wouldn't have mattered. So the internet, think, was pretty cool because suddenly you could find these things and you could figure out, like, what was that?

Who did that? And what was the name of that? Actually, what were the lyrics of this thing? I totally misheard the lyrics all this time. So that was like, I'm still pretty amazed by that, frankly. The fact that you can go onto the internet and type in random lyrics and you'll probably figure out whatever it was, something you heard on the radio. know, I actually don't even need to do that. You know, they have all these apps like Shazam and stuff like that where you can just sort of sample it and figure it out. But obviously it wasn't anything like that then. And so you kind of,

you know, we're kind of limited to the storehouse upstairs.

Brian Funk (36:54.898)

Yeah, yeah, it's nice to be able to go find that stuff and figure out what it was all about and get the backstories and all. Yeah.

Josh (37:03.853)

Yeah. Yeah. So I know like, yeah. no, go ahead.

Brian Funk (37:08.282)

know, going back to, I'm sorry. I was going to say just going back to one thing you said with your daughter and how you would, the podcast kind of started out of this finding the few minutes here and there when she's asleep and you would just talk or you'd be reading the story. I think that's a really.

Josh (37:23.523)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right.

Brian Funk (37:30.619)

cool use of your limitations too. And sometimes having these restrictions, like for me, having a day job is probably the thing that keeps me productive more than anything because the time is precious when I have it, when I come home and I'm very conscious of it. And if I want to do something, I have to do it now.

Josh (37:33.444)

Yeah.

Josh (37:39.375)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (37:43.277)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Josh (37:52.555)

Mm-hmm. Sure.

Brian Funk (37:53.597)

Compared to on the other end of that is when I have summer vacation from work and it's like if I want to do something I could do it whenever I want Once I feel like it when I'm ready Instead of I you know, it's 430 and I've got like an hour before I'm gonna have dinner and then next thing, know the night's over so having that Just like with your daughter. She's asleep. Okay, so let's make this happen

Josh (37:58.23)

Mm-hmm.

Right, right, sure.

Yeah.

Josh (38:13.775)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (38:21.051)

Yeah. Yeah, I think probably, I don't know if you have kids, but I mean, think many parents can probably relate to that. That's sort of like period where it's like, okay, the kids are kids are at school or kids are sleeping and you're like running around like a maniac. They do all these things that you can't obviously do. But I didn't, I think that was the first taste of that. And uh,

Brian Funk (38:32.594)

Yeah, right.

Josh (38:43.311)

You know, at the time it was just sort of a necessity thing. was like, if I want to do this, then why not? Why not do it now? Right? Because I have the time. so even if it's a couple of minutes, you know, it's a couple of minutes here, a couple of minutes there, at least I've done something, you know, and that's kind of how I viewed it then because the uninterrupted blocks of time were just not going to, there's nothing like that that exists now.

me but yeah yeah

Brian Funk (39:13.384)

They're very hard to come by. And a lot of people think they need them. And I like that story because that's kind of proof that, like find, collect the little shards of time where you can and put them together and they add up. I think that's a more realistic way. And I even hear when I listen to what writers talk about and what songwriters do.

Josh (39:27.576)

Yeah.

Josh (39:40.195)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:41.914)

A lot of their actual work is only a couple hours a day. So if you're able to scrounge together an hour, two hours a day over time, that all adds up and you're doing it. You're putting the effort in.

Josh (39:45.337)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (39:56.752)

Yeah. I heard this quote is from I think it's from Toni Morrison and it's something like something like she never or I don't know if she never but she said she rarely suffered from like writer's block because she was just so so busy I think through you know with kids and stuff like that that it was like when she had time it was like she would turn on a faucet.

and everything would kind of flow out and then she would have to course turn it off again. And that's kind of how I always felt. It's like the ideas are there, they're generating all the time. It's like they're there and I have these few instances where I can kind of offload them to something like paper or recording music and then it kind of frees it up for something else. But the ideas will generate and then...

during these times, these little windows, then it just, I can kind of like unleash the floodgates in a way. So I think I've been, I'm grateful for that in many ways because I know many folks will talk about they agonize over starting things or they want to do it and they sit in front of the.

Brian Funk (41:06.001)

Yeah.

Josh (41:21.391)

computer or sit in front of a notepad and they're like, I just can't come up with anything. It's a really agonizing process for many people and so I'm grateful I don't have that.

Brian Funk (41:35.868)

the whole turning the faucet on and then turning it off. Even when you're not done, you didn't get that all out. That does make it a little bit easier. The next time you can turn the faucet on because it's not just dripping. You know, you've left off, you kind of left it undone. There's something a little unfinished unfinished business. I don't know if it was like Hemingway or Steinbeck or someone who said they like to stop almost like mid sentence when they're writing.

Josh (41:41.711)

Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (41:47.577)

Right.

Right, right, right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Josh (42:05.249)

interesting. Huh.

Brian Funk (42:06.121)

Like as soon as they start feeling like the diminishing returns, tired, they'll stop in the middle of something so that tomorrow I can pick up right where I left off and I've gotten started. Which I do think is the hardest part of the whole thing is just getting in that seat and getting the instrument out or picking up the pen and putting it down. Just something about that.

Josh (42:16.397)

Hmm. Hmm. Yeah.

Josh (42:26.159)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (42:32.707)

We have the idea we need to be inspired. We all think that. We imagine like the artists getting struck by lightning and, you know, spoken to and in some supernatural way, which I mean, once in a while that'll happen, but usually it happens when I'm totally unable to do anything about it. Like I'll be like on my way to work in a car or something. Yeah, like I, it can't happen now, but

Josh (42:39.311)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Josh (42:45.497)

Great.

Josh (42:52.845)

Yeah. You get it in the shower or something. Yeah. Right.

Brian Funk (43:01.735)

But the real time I get those feelings is once I start moving and doing stuff and playing with sounds or playing with words. And then you react to what you did and you start to get a little excited and then that can build that way. it's a matter of, of trusting that that's how it works too. And I like to believe things that will kind of serve me, you know, like just change my perceptions to

Josh (43:06.35)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (43:17.155)

Yeah.

Josh (43:22.674)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (43:28.068)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (43:31.92)

Like I want to believe that having a day job helps me be more creative because the time is precious because that's the fact is I have it and I need it and that's it's a I like it. It's good. Everything's nice. So if I. Frame it like if I didn't have to do this, then I get then like everything sucks. The the the time I have to make music sucks because I wish I had more going to work sucks because I wish I didn't have to.

Josh (43:50.861)

Right.

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Josh (44:01.614)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (44:02.563)

All that stuff is negative and that's not, you know, I can't get into the creative process when I'm like that.

Josh (44:09.495)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I think of my day job as the thing that helps subsidize these other hobbies because I mean, granted, they don't make that much money. Like if I if I wanted to support myself, you know, my family on the it would I would have to it would it would be a constant hustle and I'd have to do other stuff. I would need a job.

to support, I mean, I would need a job in order to support the creative stuff when I have a job already. So it's like, it's almost like, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly, right? It would just be a total cycle. Yeah.

Brian Funk (44:40.399)

You'd probably want it. You'd be like, I want a job so I can do more. I'm sure you've probably discovered that the podcast industry is not making anyone rich. At least not unless you're at the extreme ends of it, I suppose. I mean, for the most part, doing the podcast costs me money and definitely time.

Josh (44:52.693)

No, no, no.

No.

Josh (45:01.943)

Yeah, we're time, right? Yeah, it's really definitely time that, know, and then the, I mean, how much, don't know, people like in the music.

sort of field I guess that I tend to probably most align with like the synth world synth wave and stuff like that everybody always jokes like you know nobody's gonna get rich doing this I mean if you make any money at all like great you know and then I think you know anything is nice you know Spotify pays what per stream I mean it's like fractions of thousands of of a sentence or something

Brian Funk (45:24.901)

Yeah, anything.

Brian Funk (45:36.325)

Yeah, I don't ever expect to get a check for that. But that's a nice thing, though. I don't have to care, right? Because having that job frees me of that. And like, we both do our podcasts and we're talking about it today and we're like, well, we'll just do whatever we want. We'll release it however we still don't even know if we're going to cut this thing in half or if going to put it on separate episodes or whatnot.

Josh (45:43.331)

Yeah. Yeah, exactly, right?

Josh (45:50.467)

Yeah.

Josh (45:56.879)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (46:02.362)

when we decide to release it is totally on us. That's a beautiful thing that we would probably pay a lot of money to have if we didn't have it.

Josh (46:11.119)

Yeah, you know, I did, I'm preparing this thing. It's about podcasting. It's like a sort of a instructional thing for folks. It's about doing a podcast for basically no money. And of course, it's not entirely realistic. I mean, you probably, if you don't spend money, you'll definitely spend time, which of course translates into money. But

You don't necessarily need a lot of stuff to do it. I certainly did it. I started doing it when I had, you I was home with my daughter. mean, I had very little income coming in. My wife was working, but we were saving for a house and stuff like that. So there was like it was constantly sort of hustling and it was like, OK, if I'm to do this, I'm going to figure out how I'm do it basically for no money. I'm not going to spend any money. So definitely I didn't have the best equipment or best anything. But I think the the beauty

Beauty in that in a way was that if there was stuff that I saw that was advertised to you, you need this, you gotta have this particular service because you give us all these analytics and all these other things that you have to have, they're so important. was like, are they really that important? I don't know, like when these different podcasting.

hosts, for example, say like all these statistics and stuff like that, everybody's gotta use them, like the internet will feed you this stuff and say like, you gotta do this, it's so important. It's like, you know what? I don't even know what I would do with all that stuff because like half that stuff is nice, know, maybe it's an ego boost or maybe it's an ego deflator when you see like two people are listening to it or maybe like as opposed to 2,000 or whatever, but.

Who cares? At the end of the day, it's sort of like, who cares? Because I'm not going to necessarily, I'm not doing this for money. I'm not going to change what I do based on whether people like it or not. If they want to listen to it, great. And that's sort of the attitude I had in a way that was very freeing because going back to the day job thing.

Josh (48:07.823)

I don't really have to change what I do based on audience liking it or not. They like it great. If they don't like it, that's fine. Because I know folks who do this kind of full time, they do have to be more mindful of that because that's where their bread is coming from. I don't know if you found that with the day job and how that influences or doesn't influence your creative process.

Brian Funk (48:24.57)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (48:35.822)

a lot. And it's kind of a blessing because yeah, I don't really have to worry about that. And I mean, like I said, it really does cost me a little bit of money to do the project. Maybe I'm driving people into my worlds. Maybe they're downloading the packs or buying a book or something like that. but the, doesn't matter because for one, I love doing it. I,

Josh (48:43.375)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (48:54.487)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Josh (49:03.119)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (49:05.072)

talking to you right now is a perfect example of this. Like we're able to have this conversation because we're doing this. And I don't want to be looking at charts and graphs of my show's growth or lack thereof or disappointing downturns or, no, like this particular episode, I'm comparing it to my most popular. that's, I don't want to be looking at spreadsheets anyway. So I really...

Josh (49:07.214)

Yeah.

Right.

Josh (49:18.009)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Josh (49:27.631)

Sure.

Right. Right, right, right. Yeah. It's like, know, do you really want to be working? Yeah, it's like, do you really be working when you're not working? Right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (49:36.048)

turning it into work. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I can get into that even like with YouTube videos sometimes. I mean, it's really amazing all the information you can get from it. You can learn a lot, but I mean, that's not why I'm doing it. It's, it's, I enjoy doing it and there are some people that are interested and I've found a bit of a community through it and it also kind of keeps me at it as well.

Josh (49:49.86)

Yeah.

Josh (49:53.785)

Right.

Josh (50:04.879)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (50:09.151)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (50:10.054)

I'm always thinking about it for that reason, which means I'm making more music and it all kind of serves itself. So I like that. And if I had to change what I was doing because I needed to profit off it more or anything, I'd probably enjoy it less.

Josh (50:12.505)

Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (50:18.339)

Yeah.

Josh (50:27.951)

Yeah, I think that's true for me too.

Brian Funk (50:30.436)

And even if that's not true, this is the story I tell myself because it's the reality I'm in anyway. So, I don't really have like crazy desires for it to do much more than it's doing. I want to be able to keep doing it. And when new ideas and adventures come along, I can pursue them if I want to or not.

Josh (50:33.391)

Yeah.

Josh (50:44.471)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Josh (50:54.479)

Yeah, since those people have been doing the podcast sort of thing for 11 years.

Brian Funk (51:02.059)

You're one of the few people I talked to that's been doing it longer than I have. Yeah.

Josh (51:04.975)

I guess, I guess 11 years now. It's a little weird to think about. But yeah, because my daughter is 11, right? She's 11. So yeah. And I've done it. It's a sort of a habit thing. It now now I don't know if I've missed a week. There was a time when after I did the 15, it was it took 15 episodes of about an hour each to read, to read the book and sort of essentially proofread the I guess would be the final draft. And then I didn't know what to do with it for a while. And because I didn't really know what podcasts were.

Brian Funk (51:10.158)

You.

Brian Funk (51:18.822)

Amazing.

Brian Funk (51:36.518)

Well, even when I started, which was after you, I had to explain to people what it even was. A podcast? That was 2017 for me. I was... I've always had to have the definition ready.

Josh (51:41.429)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they were like, is that like a radio broadcast or something?

Yeah, but so then I started to explore like, okay, this is where the books came from and the influences behind it. then, then what I put, what I never anticipated, just never in a million years was that eventually I started to get guests and things like that. And I was like, I met all these people, like.

all different walks of life that I never would have met otherwise in day to day life, realistically. And even if I had met them, I don't know if we would have had those kind of conversations that we did because we're kind of there for a purpose. And even with friends, know, as soon as I would have friends on the show in day to day life, when we would see each other or talk on the phone or something like that, we probably wouldn't be discussing things like that on that level.

So that's been really nice. I, you know, I have, I would say in day-to-day life, I have very few people I can share most of this stuff with realistically. Maybe sort of tangentially interested. Like, you do music. okay. That's cool. You know, it's kind of like, you know, it's like, whatever you wrote about. that's interesting. What's it about? And like, that's cool. You know, it's not really a huge thing. But I think, you know, because

You know, these are people from, you know, essentially all over, I guess all over the world in a way. I mean, I never probably would have encountered them had it not been for this particular platform that I have stuck with. that I'm quite grateful for that because the community sort of things are hard. I found it hard to find. I don't live in an area that has a lot of this stuff built in. And even when you go look for it.

Josh (53:33.423)

You gotta work pretty hard to create it and to maintain it. And I've found it's quite hard to find out if that's been your experience. It sounds like you have a little bit more built in being in a band, but I don't know your thoughts on that. But the community side of it, the creative side of it, I don't know.

Brian Funk (53:51.108)

Yeah, I think a lot of what you said is the same for me. I've kind of got into sharing this stuff on the internet.

Josh (54:00.528)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (54:01.091)

because there's not a lot of people you can really connect with about it. I have supportive people in my life and some of them I do the work with, some are friends, like we play music together, but once I start talking about how I rolled off the high end at 10k on this hi-hat, really, whatever, like...

Josh (54:05.485)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (54:10.137)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (54:23.233)

You

Josh (54:27.969)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (54:28.387)

that you lose them. So yeah, I wanted to be able to find people to talk about these things and it drove me to seeking that out online and then just kind of participating in it a little bit too. And that's been really nice because...

Josh (54:33.977)

Yeah.

Josh (54:42.799)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (54:47.269)

You can't really put that on a lot of the people in your life, I think, to expect them to want to listen to you go on and on about whatever. And it might be a reason why a lot of people let go of those things too, because they haven't found that. yeah, there are communities in real life, but they are hard to find because especially when you're in a kind of niche thing.

Josh (54:51.435)

No... Yeah...

Yeah.

Josh (55:03.779)

Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (55:12.025)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (55:16.517)

You know, there's not people down the road that have modular synths or producing music or writing fantasy novels and all of that. But there's a lot of them scattered around the world and you can gather online. And yeah, that part of it has been extremely valuable to me, talking to people, learning from them. I mean, it's been the best learning experience of my life.

Josh (55:19.221)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Josh (55:24.42)

Yeah.

Josh (55:29.997)

Right, sure. Yeah.

Josh (55:38.243)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (55:43.558)

far better than college and all of that stuff. Because just hearing what people are doing and talking about the stuff that doesn't get in the books and in the, you know, like these kind of human side of things where like you said, even just that little anecdote about your daughter and reading the book, like what a great way to do the audio book.

Josh (55:45.451)

Yeah

Josh (55:57.283)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (56:08.805)

in that downtime and to make them, I find that really inspiring. Like, sort of like conquered those barriers that were put up to you because you were able to find a way to make it productive for you. And I think that's important to do those kinds of things.

Josh (56:10.361)

Sure, yeah.

Josh (56:19.395)

Hmm.

Josh (56:25.529)

Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (56:31.955)

I think I kind of think of it as like stealing stealing time I think I mean obviously we all have 24 hours in a day and you we can only do so much with it but you know you often hear people say I don't have time or I can't afford this or whatever and I think that obviously there's there's limitations right everybody has but

Brian Funk (56:35.685)

you

Josh (56:55.855)

You know, sometimes we, think we also need to keep in mind like how much time we're, we're, um, maybe not wasting is the right term, but we're using our time maybe inefficiently. And I'm certainly guilty of this too. Like you just get, don't know, you know, stuck in the toilet for an hour, you know, 30 minutes or something like that, or you're scrolling on social media or it's just, it's not productive time. And maybe it's not even something you would have chosen to do if you, uh,

could have looked at it objectively. It's like, didn't really want to spend my time doing that. And so I think it's doing this sort of inventory of like how you want to live in kind of an intentional way. It's like an ongoing exercise, at least for me. like, yeah.

Brian Funk (57:40.451)

I think it has to be because it's different now. The social media, all the stuff we get is actively trying to take our time. mean, the algorithms are pointed at us to make us want to click on things that will keep us on the platform because we will see more ads and they'll earn more money. that's just the, they're in an attention game and they've got the smartest people in the world using human

Josh (57:49.497)

Yeah.

Josh (57:54.499)

Yeah, yeah.

Josh (57:59.812)

Yeah. Yeah. That's a... Right.

Josh (58:09.731)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:10.464)

psychology against us all the time and I'm not trying to sound negative or nefarious about it because you can easily go down that road but it's just the fact of the matter so you have to really you got to pay you have to actively pay attention to that stuff because

Josh (58:12.473)

Yeah.

Josh (58:19.449)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think it's very realistic, yeah.

Josh (58:30.019)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:31.426)

When I put a show on Netflix, the next one, next episode comes on right away. I don't have to do anything. I can just sit there. I don't even think they do the thing anymore. Are you still watching? I haven't seen that screen in a while. They used to put that up every once in a while.

Josh (58:37.204)

Right, right, right, right.

Yeah, right, yeah, I think it's still there. I know sometimes my kids will, like if you seem to be there for a while, I think it still pops up, but it's certainly not with every episode. So, yeah.

Brian Funk (58:53.604)

Yeah, like you just don't, you don't have to take action to continue down that road. And yeah, like sometimes I get like the screen time notification on my phone and on the computer and it pops up and tells me how much of my life I'm spending on that. And I think about that a lot. I've done the math and realized that an hour a day.

Josh (59:00.526)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (59:22.752)

is equal to about 15 full days a year when you add it up. 1 24th of a day, right? And there's 12 months in a year. So that's half of a month. So,

Josh (59:28.013)

Yeah. Yeah, huh. Right, right, right. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (59:38.008)

Yeah, when I see that, I say to myself, wow, that's like I've been on my phone from January to March. That's how much time I'm to spend on it. If I'm going to spend six hours a day on the computer, that's like three months.

Josh (59:47.125)

Yeah, right.

Josh (59:57.552)

Yeah, mean, know, it's very weird because when I did the whole publishing thing, I think it's even worse now. So that was 11 years ago. But a huge and maybe you encounter this with the I don't know if you can count it with the teaching the writing side of it. But you know, the publishing world is so backwards in many ways. And I think like

you know, even if you're traditionally published or independently published, you have to spend a huge amount of time just promoting. You you become the salesperson for everything you do because, you know, even the traditional publisher, when the book comes out, it's all this advertising and then, you know, a month later, they're on to the next thing. And it's up to the authors themselves to do that. And you can devote so much of your time.

sort of spinning your wheels, trying to get traction and all these other things. I encounter so many authors who initially who were doing this, I guess I have to do that too. But there was so much frustration, angst built around it. And eventually I was like, you know what, I don't want to spend nearly as much time on this side of it because it takes away from the actual

enjoyable part of it, the actual part that actually drew me to the whole thing. You know, I think if you are doing it full time, then obviously you have to do that to some degree. But I think for essentially a hobbyist, I guess, it's like, how much do you really want to devote that much of your life to the sales part of it? You know, and I think it's gotten worse, you know, because of the social media aspect of it, which was essentially free advertising before.

is not that way. really, they've set it up now, so you kind of have to pay to play in a way. It's paid advertising. I think when you recognize that that's what it is, then it's like, okay, those are the stakes that I have to deal with if want to do this.

Brian Funk (01:01:58.509)

Yeah, and understand the trade off of it. You know, if you're not going to do that, you're not going to reach as many people, but you'll get more time to do the thing you want to do. And if you decide to do it, it might get you to more people, might not. And that might even lead to getting more time to do what you want to do down the road. I guess if...

Josh (01:02:08.046)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Josh (01:02:20.045)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:02:23.68)

The best answers I've heard to some of that stuff, because a lot of artists are like, feel gross about promoting their stuff. The best answer is to make that part of the art that I think make that part of the creative process. How can you have fun with it? How can you make it? You know, instead of just making like an advertisement, like you've done this with the, I was listening to your episode about composing the tracks.

Josh (01:02:29.366)

Yeah, sure.

Josh (01:02:37.833)

Yeah. Can you have fun with it? Yeah.

Josh (01:02:52.622)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:02:53.128)

and taking us behind the scene and you know, I'm listening to the music now because of that and it's interesting. It's content like in itself, right? So like you're, you could call it advertising or promotion too, I guess, but it's also interesting on its own. And you can tell you're having fun reflecting on it and thinking about it.

Josh (01:02:59.384)

Right, yeah.

Josh (01:03:05.069)

Right, sure.

Josh (01:03:15.875)

Yeah.

Josh (01:03:19.855)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:03:20.724)

And that's a valuable part of the artistic process anyways, to reflect on your work.

Josh (01:03:26.639)

Yeah, I think it's important to have time to do that, or at least I found it important for me. I found it because...

I try to put out an episode each week that I'm like, what am going to do this week for the podcast? And so if I'm working on a music thing, like for example, I think what did I do last week? Last week I was, I don't know if you've seen the movie Legend. was, okay, yeah, yeah. And I was like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. was like, all right, well.

Brian Funk (01:03:49.666)

Yeah, I did listen to that this morning. You're playing the theme song and talking about the different soundtracks. I don't know the movie, though. You said it was Tom Cruise? Legend? I don't think I know that movie.

Josh (01:04:03.599)

Yeah, yeah, it's uh 85. Tom Cruise, Mia Sarah, is the Ferris Bueller's Day Off girl and who's the... Tim Curry I think plays like a devil kind of character. It's kind of, I'll be honest, it's kind of a weird movie in all... Early Tom Cruise, yeah, so...

Brian Funk (01:04:23.268)

This is early Tom Cruise before...

Josh (01:04:28.783)

Tom Cruise is running around half the movie without any pants on. that's a little, know, it could be a plus or could be a minus depending on your point of view.

Brian Funk (01:04:33.902)

There you go.

Josh (01:04:36.365)

But the soundtrack was done by Tangerine Dream, or at least the American release anyway, this gets more complicated. And there's a theme in there and I was playing around with it last week and I've worked on it a little bit more, but because I knew that I was gonna be recording something within the next week, I was like, okay, well, let me work on it more. Let me try to make it a little bit better and play around with it a little bit more. And so it kinda, I think if I didn't have that,

you know that regular is a deadline in a way that I probably wouldn't be doing it as much. It would happen probably but just not on as frequently a frequent basis.

Brian Funk (01:05:07.747)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:15.972)

Yeah, you know, I did that same thing.

When I first started releasing Ableton Live packs, little sound packs other producers can use in their music. So I made one, it was the sound of my laptop feeding back. So if you ever are just producing on your laptop and you're listening to it out of the speakers, and then you're also using the internal microphone. And if you hit that arm button, it'll just make this awful noise. It'll probably knock you out of your seat, but I've recorded it.

Josh (01:05:23.693)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Josh (01:05:32.879)

that's cool.

Josh (01:05:39.769)

huh.

Josh (01:05:43.351)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:50.302)

put in the sampler and made like a really nice instrument out of it just kind of a peaceful thing with some cool movement to it and I put it out for people to download and in a weekend more people downloaded that than like ever looked at anything I've been doing musically so was like oh that's cool so I started I was into that whole making my own instruments anyway so I was like I'll make one every week and

Josh (01:05:54.208)

cool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (01:06:05.455)

I'm not kidding.

Josh (01:06:12.899)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:06:15.927)

That gave me so much discipline and it was not long after like a band had broken up. So I'm still trying to get my musical footing back and doing that helped a lot. And I wasn't using Ableton Live much for very long at that point. I really didn't know it, but then people started thinking I knew what I was doing and asking me questions so I'd figure it out so could help them. And that's how I really learned it. It was that weekly discipline. All right, I want to make something or I have something to work.

Josh (01:06:21.103)

Sure.

Josh (01:06:30.991)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah

Josh (01:06:40.856)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Brian Funk (01:06:46.001)

on here, I'm make some music for this sound. Really productive. I started the podcast the same way. I was doing every week for five or so, six years maybe of it. But within the, I don't know, maybe it was like this summer I think, I started going every other week. Because I just felt like...

Josh (01:06:49.124)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Josh (01:07:02.713)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (01:07:08.559)

Hmm

Brian Funk (01:07:15.655)

I was doing too much. It was getting into in the way of a lot of the other stuff I was doing. But I also felt like every time I'd have these like really cool conversations with people, they only had like a week to go out. wasn't enough time for me to put out like a little clip on social media to promote it. And I just felt like a lot of stuff was getting lost in the quantity. So.

Josh (01:07:37.092)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (01:07:40.631)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, feeding that machine, right? The feeding the algorithm, just kind of pumping out stuff. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:07:49.848)

Yeah, so I dialed it back to half and this is, way more manageable and I think I feel less stress about it and frees up room for other stuff too.

Josh (01:07:58.287)

Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if you did you talk about like when you recently put out an album is more like a meditative style kind of album more electronic. And did you talk about that on your podcast, like the creation of it? I think I feel like somewhere on your website, I think I saw that it was on YouTube. You had talked about like how it was made. I know maybe I'm making that up, but.

Brian Funk (01:08:26.007)

Yeah, I think you're talking about like the ambient one, which that was 2020. That was called a journey inward. Yeah, so that I do this thing every year. Jamuary. Jamuary.

Josh (01:08:33.656)

Hmm.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'd be curious to know about that.

Josh (01:08:44.569)

January. January. Okay. okay. Interesting.

Brian Funk (01:08:48.187)

So you make a jam every day in January, something that you can share. So the idea is like make something and share it, whether it's like SoundCloud or Instagram or something. And I've had this like music production club community that I've been doing for like over 10 years now. That's another thing that's built into my workflow, because every month I'm producing something for them. And now we do like a monthly music mission.

Josh (01:08:55.65)

Okay.

Yeah.

Josh (01:09:02.98)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (01:09:10.595)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:09:16.137)

and it's like a little musical challenge or prompt or something. But yeah, every January we all participate in this thing and you try to show up as many days as you can in January. I always say like, look, if you only show up one day, that's one day you showed up. It's better than nothing. But by showing up every day, I've found that...

Josh (01:09:27.247)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (01:09:32.149)

Right, Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:09:40.75)

things get less and less precious. you the first one you want to be really good and like the last one you kind of like put a little more weight on, I guess too. But there are a lot of days when you only have an hour or half hour or real short amount of time and you're not, you don't have time to decide if what you're doing is good or bad. And

Josh (01:09:43.161)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (01:09:50.424)

Yeah, sure.

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:04.631)

You also kind of like, let's see what happens if I do this today. You know, it's just like January 11th. Let's try something weird today. And I'll play with this toy or that toy. And I've got this little synthesizer called the OP-1 by Teenage Engineering. It's so cool. I love it. And I was making these ambient tracks in real time. So.

Josh (01:10:08.591)

Mm-hmm.

Josh (01:10:13.099)

You

Brian Funk (01:10:33.843)

I would set like a five minute or so recording time and then I would just play a sound on this synth and slowly tweak the knobs in real time and then I would just layer together four tracks. Sometimes I'd put samples in there and background noises and stuff and it was very just I wanted it to be

Josh (01:10:37.551)

Mmm.

Josh (01:10:43.225)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Josh (01:10:51.343)

That's cool.

Brian Funk (01:10:58.441)

very uneventful music, like for falling asleep, for meditating, like that kind of stuff. Yeah, and so I did it for like four days in a row, five days in a row, and that ultimately became the album. After, after February, January, do finish February, so you try to finish something. And that's what I did for that.

Josh (01:11:00.399)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (01:11:15.631)

That's cool. I like that.

Josh (01:11:23.673)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:26.813)

It actually worked out nice because by the time I finished that, COVID happened.

I think we were all looking for something relaxing and calming. And I had this music that was designed for that purpose. And having it with a purpose was something I like to think about too. Like, why are you going to listen to this? What are you going to be doing when this is playing? So this was like the meditative relaxing thing. And we think about that when I play in my band. It's like, well, we're going to be playing out.

Josh (01:11:33.359)

Yeah, that's true. Right.

Yeah.

Josh (01:11:48.535)

Right. Right, sure.

Brian Funk (01:11:59.265)

bars and nightclubs. You people don't want to hear our moody artistic thing. They want to have fun. Like they're trying to have a good time. So that tends to be the angle we go for with that stuff. It's kind of like what you're doing with yours too. You're creating sounds for your books and your fantasy world.

Josh (01:12:00.332)

Yeah.

Josh (01:12:03.824)

Right, right, right, right, sure.

Josh (01:12:10.639)

Of course, yeah. Yeah.

Josh (01:12:18.649)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:19.378)

That gives you, that's a creative limitation in itself and it gives it a purpose, some direction and you can always take every decision you're making and put it up against that goal. like, am I going to put drums in this ambient record? No, cause I don't want you to start like feeling a rhythm and bouncing. So, you know, I'm not gonna put, there's probably not going to be lyrics because you know, that's gonna.

Josh (01:12:23.257)

Sure.

Josh (01:12:31.703)

Yeah, that's true.

Josh (01:12:38.383)

Right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, yeah.

Josh (01:12:45.732)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:46.678)

be more distracting. I'm trying to fade into the background with this.

Josh (01:12:50.379)

Yeah, yeah, one of the, think as I mentioned, maybe I was offline, I've been experimenting with learning how to use a DAW. I put it off for a long time and decided to finally take the plunge. so there was a track that I wanted to do for a submission for a, it was like a Halloween thing. And I had never really, most of the music that I tend to do is like,

You know, it's like sort of 80s inspired. It's probably going to be in the key of C or G or something like that. It was kind of like chipper. It's relatively, you know, it's probably like 120 beats per minute or something like that. it's, know, it's, it's, it's, and there's slower ones too, but I never made a dark synth track before. And that was something I wanted to do. So I, it was the first time I was going to try to use this, this program.

And I was tempted many times to do it the old way, what I would do and to get on the keyboard and start doing it with my fingers. And I did plug in a MIDI controller into the computer, so I could at least do that. But I was very tempted to kind of do it the old way I had done before, what I would do it kind of more manually, I guess more in an analog way. I'm glad to say I didn't do that because I wanted to learn how to use this particular

or tool and if I had gone back and done the other way I think I wouldn't have learned it very effectively. But you're reminding me of one part of it because it was to go along with the prequel to my book The Thirteenth Hour and there's a part in the prequel

It's about a hunter and he's chasing a deer. And I wanted to do a track that was based on that. And that kind of put the, there was going to be the tempo of it was going to be fairly fast paced. And I wanted there to be sounds that kind of gave the, the, the person who was listening an idea about what was actually happening. So I wanted there to be like sounds of like people running and, and, uh, you know, going through like, uh, you know, breathing hard. And I wanted there to be the sound.

Josh (01:15:04.761)

of like a deer, you know, galloping and then snorting and stuff like that. And then for the bow, I actually went and recorded it. So I played around with archery since for a long time. then so I just put a microphone next to the bow and then reported it, you know, the string drawing the arrow, what that would sound like. And then the sound of it, you know, shooting, releasing the bow and that kind of sound. And it was really a lot of fun actually to do that. And they kind of like then take the sound

and then kind of play with it on the computer to make it sound like extended or make it louder or whatever so that it had a, you know, probably more unnatural sound, but it was also, it kind of highlighted what it actually was because I wanted the listener to be able to say, okay, that's definitely the sound of like arrows rattling around or that's definitely the sound of the bow releasing, you know, and so I think that you kind of reminded me of these different

limitations in a way I guess but it was kind of like I viewed it as kind of creating a soundscape for the person that was listening so they kind of got the idea that this was a hunt and because obviously I could do this on a synthesizer as well but the the dog gave me more choices about different sounds to use

that it was nice to be able to pick like, well, actually, I don't think this is quite the right thing. Could I find something that sounds a little bit more medieval, for example, and less like a synthesizer track? Because I want it to sound a little bit synth because that's my signature thing, I guess. So it was really a lot of fun to do that in a way.

Brian Funk (01:16:47.852)

That's a great way to do it, like you made the project out of it. your goal wasn't learn this software, because then you're going to be like, what's this button do? What's that button do? It's more, let's make the song and use the tool. And you probably figured out a few things along the way.

Josh (01:16:51.939)

Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (01:16:59.105)

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:17:06.826)

It's really cool that you recorded the bow yourself. I think you probably could have found a sample somewhere that anyone would have access to, I think those little extra efforts, I think that adds a lot. And nowadays, I think it's so much more important than ever to...

Josh (01:17:10.336)

Yeah

Josh (01:17:13.837)

Yeah.

Josh (01:17:19.652)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Josh (01:17:27.363)

Yeah. Right.

Brian Funk (01:17:28.15)

Bring some humanity, bring yourself into this, because it is easy enough to download samples, click on things, generate things now. You don't even have to make the music anymore. I feel like that's going to be the last episode of this podcast. Like, well, we don't have to do it anymore. You can just click a button now. But that robs you of all the fun in the process. And you took the time to have that fun.

Josh (01:17:36.535)

Mm-hmm. I know, I know. That's... Yeah.

Well, that's, yeah, that's, Well, I did, to be fair, I did look to see if I could find anything. I just didn't find it. Or, I didn't find something that I wanted, and so was like, well, I'll just do it myself. And I guess the, the,

The fun about, I guess, the making of it was that I kind of got, it's something that of course I had meant to do for a long time, but I got to approach it with fairly fresh ears because I hadn't looked at that particular story in quite a long time. And I got to think about like, okay, if I wanted to create like a soundtrack, like a score for this, how would I go about doing it?

and that was something that now I had kind of the ability to do before I didn't.

I had a much more limited set of tools to do it with. But I guess the conclusion that I had was like, well, I made this, I did accomplish my goal of making this using a DAW and that was something I'd put off for a long time, so I'm glad I did it. But the conclusion that I had from the whole thing, and maybe this would be erased if you do it a zillion times, but that I don't necessarily know if it's actually more fun to do it that way. It was a lot of fiddling and it was more convenient in some ways.

Josh (01:19:16.623)

could correct mistakes much easier. I didn't have to play it perfectly or like you know close to perfectly the way but there was some weirdness that I noticed like there was I'm still getting used to these terms what is it called quantizing when you quantize the things like the the beat because before when I would

Brian Funk (01:19:30.877)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, when you fix the notes to the timing.

Josh (01:19:36.112)

Yeah, I would do like the, would, I don't have a drum kit or anything like that. So I would, I would kind of hit the notes manually, you know, with like an effect or whatever. And of course it'd be off by a little bit. But then I, I was like, Oh, what's this do? And I quantized the backing beat and I was like, Oh, that's interesting. But then right next to that, there was a button called humanize where you could kind of make it look messier, I guess, you know, and it was like, we've come like

Brian Funk (01:19:59.49)

Cool.

Josh (01:20:05.335)

totally 180 in this world. And I saw the possibility, if you were very obsessive about this, to fiddle with this endlessly and to kind of tweak this and tweak that and kind of make it in a way that I guess you could obviously do that before, but it just was more gliborius to do that. And now it's so easy.

Brian Funk (01:20:06.815)

Yep. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:20:16.095)

Hmm. Yes.

Josh (01:20:31.215)

because let me try this, let try that. You could never finish anything. I didn't necessarily know if I liked the process better because I found that I was just sitting in front of a computer the entire time. I remember one day, I think I had the day off, and I was like, yeah, I'm going to devote some time to working on this track. And I think I worked on it for like four hours. I just sat in front of the computer.

Brian Funk (01:20:36.661)

That's, yes, exactly. Yeah.

Josh (01:20:57.615)

And I was like, at the end of that, I'd either pick up the kids or walk the dog or something like that. I was like, man, I just sat in front of the computer. I don't know where the time went. And I kind of had a headache and shoulders hurt.

I don't know. I don't know if this is better, you know? Because when you're making music, right, you're moving and you're going from kind of one thing to the next. You're standing or you're sitting, but it's a mobile kind of process, right? As opposed to like, I guess when a computer, you are moving, but it's like infinitesimally small, like clicking a mouse, right? I don't know. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:21:16.213)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:21:31.606)

Yeah, these little, yeah, same movements you do to do email and spreadsheets and work. Yeah, you you bring up a good point. Something I like to do a lot, this desk is a standing desk, so it will go up.

Josh (01:21:50.364)

huh, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:21:51.828)

I like to move. I like to walk around the room, dance a little. Like sometimes you need to be, is this moving me? Is this grooving? You know, I need to feel it a little. And we have come this kind of about face where we wanted the computer to fix everything and now we have humanized buttons to like unfix things. And a lot of what I do is fighting the perfection of the computer, doing things to mess up.

Josh (01:21:53.805)

Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (01:22:00.184)

Yeah.

Josh (01:22:12.419)

That's so weird.

Josh (01:22:18.262)

Uh-huh.

Brian Funk (01:22:20.191)

how perfect it is and that idea that you don't ever have to commit. You can always keep adjusting and tweaking. So I've been doing a lot of things where I'm committing more, where if I'm playing like this in MIDI, I'll get it into audio. So I can't do that anymore. I can't endlessly tweak the sound until it's perfect because if I can fix that sound,

Josh (01:22:28.302)

Right.

Josh (01:22:39.513)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:22:46.741)

Then when I go on to the next sound, I might come up something that I really like, but then I'll say, well, all I have to do is go back and just fix that sound a little, and then it'll fit together nice. And then you fix this. Well, if I fix sound B, so sound C fixes, suddenly sound A is weird, right? And then I fix A, and then like, now C is out of place, and they all affect each other and interact with each other. If I commit sound A, B, and C, D has to work with those.

Josh (01:22:53.163)

Yeah, it does annoy us that, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (01:23:00.943)

Yeah, yeah, right, right, right.

Josh (01:23:08.174)

Yeah.

Josh (01:23:13.442)

Yeah.

Right, right, right, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:23:16.577)

So it's not like I'll fix B so D fits better. And then you're then all of a sudden all the balance is off and you're, you're just going in that cycle. And that can, that's a great way to never finish anything. But like all art and even writing a page in a book, you have to decide what happens. You have to decide and then move on from there.

Josh (01:23:20.813)

Right.

Josh (01:23:25.474)

Yeah.

Right, right, Yeah.

Josh (01:23:39.406)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:23:41.353)

You don't have to decide anymore if you don't want to. And that's where I think we get stuck a lot.

Josh (01:23:44.932)

That's fair. Yeah. This the last album I did, well, actually both of my albums, I wanted them to be on tape because I've always had a thing for tape. I've always really liked tapes. yeah, but it's interesting, know, when you at least the process that I went through for both of the cassettes.

Brian Funk (01:23:56.32)

Yeah, it's so cool.

Brian Funk (01:24:00.341)

That sound even, rattling around in there.

Josh (01:24:10.799)

because you get them and they're made for CD quality. And I don't know if you noticed that, but when CDs came along, you could hear everything. You could hear all the imperfections and all the little pops and cracks and all that kind of stuff like that, as opposed to a record or a tape. And so I got the audio all cleaned up and everything like that.

Brian Funk (01:24:21.908)

Yeah, clarity,

Josh (01:24:36.355)

And you know, it sounds, it sounds fine. It sounds good. Right. And I listened to it and, but then when you listen to it on a tape, right, a lot of that goes away because you have that background, that little like a little imperfections of the, of the tape that happened when the, the, the wheels spin like a little bit faster, a little bit slower. And it goes like that, you know, you know what I mean? Right. And you have those kinds of things, like when the battery is dying.

Brian Funk (01:24:59.146)

Yeah, pitch a little, Yeah.

Josh (01:25:05.251)

you know, that gets like really slow and those kinds of things like that. And it's interesting, all that's back in there. And so like when you, when you listen with, when you listen to it like that, I was the first time because I got a demo of it.

And I was like, does it really sound like that? Because I don't think it sounded like that actually on the, when I sent it off that way, when I got it back. And then, but that's, you know, I listened with better headphones and stuff like that. yeah, I forgot, you know, cause I don't listen to.

as many things on tape anymore, you forget these like imperfections that exist in those, in that media when we're used to pristine audio all the time. You realize how little it actually matters in the end because it didn't matter then really. It just kind of assumed that there would be those things there and it didn't make that much of a difference at the time.

Brian Funk (01:25:51.946)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:26:01.018)

That kind of stuff I'm constantly baking into my music. I'll sometimes record things to tape and then back into the computer or I'll use effects that emulate tape or I'll have the pitch slowly changing, like just subtly being modulated to recreate those kind of like living characteristics. The tape is a physical medium. It's on the tape.

Josh (01:26:04.941)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (01:26:17.666)

huh.

Josh (01:26:28.323)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:26:30.208)

The sound is in there and it ages even the more you play it. I find that stuff interesting and yeah, it's part of the experience. love that. It looks great by the way. I'm looking at it on the Bandcamp, Once Upon a Dream. And I love that you got like the CD player in there and the tape player in the background with it just as part of your presentation.

Josh (01:26:35.587)

Yeah.

Right.

Josh (01:26:46.958)

Yeah, thank you.

Josh (01:26:53.441)

Yeah, yeah, it was fun. I remember when I got the first CD back, I decided I go listen to this and I used the one I think in that picture and I went jogging and I totally forgot. Yeah, I totally forgot like half the time like it's going to skip and I just, you know, and so I had that experience, you the the the you holding it like this, right?

Brian Funk (01:27:06.464)

He can't do that.

Brian Funk (01:27:11.655)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:27:15.168)

I used to jog with a CD player and I'd be holding a server with a dish trying to keep it from skipping.

Josh (01:27:23.411)

I think we all did. I'm totally just forgetting. We all kind of just did that. yeah, right? But yeah, I would say that was a lot of work, but it was a lot of fun because doing the pixel art for the, I did the cover art and everything like that because for me that was like, I enjoyed doing that.

Brian Funk (01:27:27.85)

with lot of crap.

Josh (01:27:47.344)

I would think like, well, could I get someone else to do it? And would be so much work to kind of explain to somebody else how what I was trying to convey. I was like, I'll just do it kind of myself. But that that that was fun. Well, you're talking about actually where you you do it like, you know, you maybe use a MIDI instrument and then.

you just you record the audio like the raw audio and then you you may edit it a little bit there but that's what i did is uh i didn't do any of it i did very little of it electronically um it was kind of all done like on the synthesizer and then i would send the audio to the computer and then maybe i clean it up a little bit or add reverb or something like that but uh most of it was done there and uh so the i would have to

It was in some ways frustrating because I would have to practice it many times to get it to actually be recordable quality, right? And I guess in a way I don't necessarily need to do that quite to the same extent if I do it electronically. But I don't know, it worked out. And sometimes I'll listen to something on there and I was like, ah, you know, maybe the timing wasn't quite right, but for the most part, you know, it is what it is. It's a stamp in time.

And I like that has a little bit of character. There's some baked-in flaws, I guess, kind of like the popping and the cracking and stuff like that of the audio that we naturally have. Because no one notices those little timing errors or whatever anyway. mean, realistically, they're like, OK, that's the way it is.

Brian Funk (01:29:29.384)

Yeah, well, yeah, a lot of times people assume that's what you want it to do if it's in there. But yeah, it makes it more human. makes it alive. plus, you you leave that stuff in a little and it, like you said, it's a moment in time. Like this is where you were. I think trying to make the ultimate product all the time. This is me and this is my ultimate expression. Like it's a stuck.

Josh (01:29:33.06)

Yeah.

Josh (01:29:47.267)

Yeah, at the time, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:29:58.516)

When I'm like that, nothing good happens. But when I have the attitude of like, this is what I made today. This is where I'm at musically is where, because you, the you you are right now is the only time you'll ever be this you you are, you know, like we're always changing and the world around us is changing. So I'm trying to get more comfortable with that. And it's making me enjoy the process more and I think be more productive too.

Josh (01:30:05.826)

Yeah.

Josh (01:30:11.073)

Mm-hmm. That's true. That's true. Yeah.

Josh (01:30:26.669)

Yeah, that was a real Mr. Rogers moment right there, right? The you you are right now is the only you that I'll ever be or whatever. However you put it, I like that. yeah.

Brian Funk (01:30:30.617)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:30:36.893)

Yeah, we'll have to go back and listen that again. But yeah, it gives it value though, right? So if I make something after we're done talking, I can say that only would have ever happened right now. And I like to think about that. I there are stories of artists that wrote great songs in one day. What if they didn't show up that day?

Josh (01:30:45.219)

Yeah.

Josh (01:30:54.617)

Great.

Josh (01:31:01.593)

Right.

Exactly, Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:31:05.145)

It probably wouldn't have happened. What if I don't do it today? What if I skip it? What if I stay on the couch or on the phone? It can help me get off my ass a little and get to work.

Josh (01:31:12.759)

Yeah. Right, right. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. I remember one of the tracks on there. Which one was it? It was I can tell you.

was one, it was called No Hero, and I wanted it to sound, the thing that I had, the lyrics that I had written were meant for a woman to sing. And there's two characters in the book, one's male, one's female, and I wanted it to be from the woman's perspective.

And I had in my head one of those kind of like ending songs, like, you know, to a movie where the credits are rolling and there's a, like a woman singing a song, but I wanted to be kind of happy and kind of chipper and sort of this thing that you would play, like listening, you know, in the car as you're driving off into the summer, you know, sunset or something like that. So something you might listen to like on a road trip or something like that. I, I, the only problem is I couldn't find a, I couldn't find a woman to sing it.

And the lyrics were written from that perspective and I got stuck there for a really long time. And I'd even experimented with some tools. It was probably about a year and a half ago, like some AI tools to see if like I could, you know, raise the pitch of my voice. I have a fairly like low voice, bass voice. And so.

I tried singing super high to see if I could transform that and it sounded horrendous. And I found some of these early AI tools that you would sing in the voice of...

Josh (01:32:54.191)

I don't know, whatever, Ariana Grande or something like that. was like, I don't know. And it sounded very weird. And I was like, I don't really know if I want to delve into that side of things because then it's kind of like not your own anymore. But they didn't work very well anyway. And so one day I was just, I got the idea, why don't I just change the lyrics a little bit? I'll do it from a male perspective. And that just fixed everything. It was just like, it was five minutes.

Brian Funk (01:33:20.839)

Right. That's funny.

Josh (01:33:21.263)

I changed a couple of words. It's literally all I did. I changed a couple of words and the whole song changed and I finished the song that day. I'd been working on it, not agonizing over it, but it had been stalled out for two years or something like that. I was like, well, maybe I can get somebody to do it. Maybe I can get my wife to do it. I don't know. None of it worked.

Brian Funk (01:33:44.188)

Isn't it funny how sometimes you have to just... One simple change, it might be at a fundamental level, and sometimes we're so deep in it we can't see that.

Josh (01:33:57.121)

Yeah, I just couldn't see it.

Brian Funk (01:33:59.136)

I feel like I love that kind of stuff because I think there's probably so many things in my life that I do that are causing me so much more trouble than I need or blocking me in certain ways. I mean, I don't know why this is the one that came to my head, but I decided to throw away all my socks and just buy like three bags of the same exact pair of socks so that I don't have to pair them together and figure out which ones match when I'm doing laundry and

Josh (01:34:10.017)

Yeah.

Josh (01:34:21.711)

yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:34:29.403)

I have to imagine like in the years, 10 years or so since I did that, like that's what I do now. Instead of getting new socks here and there, just, once they're kind of had their time, they all get thrown out and I just get the new bag. It's costing me probably like $12 altogether. But the time I save, every time I do laundry, if I'm saving three minutes, I'm like, man, that's like a lot of my life.

Josh (01:34:40.59)

Yeah.

Interesting, yeah.

Yeah, right?

Yeah.

Josh (01:34:53.855)

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who wants to your life matching socks? exactly. That's a good idea. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:34:59.871)

But that little change in yours, well what if I just switch a few words around and now boom, it's done.

Josh (01:35:07.599)

Yeah, I couldn't believe it. It's like all this time I was just futzing around with this thing and then I literally changed like a couple words, you know? And it was done. I recorded the audio like shortly after that. And it was done. It was like it was within an hour. I mean, was or something like that. I mean, it took a while to mix it and everything like that, but it kind of all fell into place. So it's weird how that works, you know? It's very weird. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:35:23.475)

Yeah.

crazy.

Brian Funk (01:35:34.175)

Yeah. What if we just do that? That's where sometimes another person's perspective really comes in handy. Because they just see it differently or they're not as attached to it. And you might be having a problem with a song and they might just say, well, just take that guitar part out. And I'll be like, but that's the part. I've worked on that. Then you hit mute and you're like, oh, yeah. That happened to my band too, doing vocals and

Josh (01:35:45.966)

Yeah.

Josh (01:35:52.975)

Yeah, it's just a favorite part. I work so hard on that. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:36:03.807)

I had like got the effects just right and you know to cover all my own insecurities about my singing and they just said like what if you just take those effects off so we can like really hear what you're saying and after the initial getting over it for me I was like you guys are so right and not only is it easy to hear what I'm saying but there's more room in the mix for everything else but I wouldn't have done that.

Josh (01:36:11.311)

Sure.

Josh (01:36:17.741)

Yeah. Yeah.

Josh (01:36:24.355)

Yeah.

Josh (01:36:31.104)

Right, right.

Brian Funk (01:36:33.873)

I would have probably decided to put more plugins on that voice to fix the problem.

Josh (01:36:34.445)

Yeah.

Josh (01:36:39.661)

Yeah, yeah, I can relate to that. Yeah, I think like I don't this is a very unsophisticated way of mixing it. This is how I tend to do it. I get it more or less how it sounds, right? And then I go, I just listen to it many times in different places. I'll listen to it on headphones or I'll listen to it in a car or whatever on various speakers to see. But the thing that I'm kind of aiming for is to actually be doing something else and actually realize that the entire track is played.

Brian Funk (01:36:53.801)

Yeah, that's a good way to do it.

Josh (01:37:08.335)

And I didn't, there was no part of it that thick, was like, oh, maybe kind of like, you know, a great or cringe or whatever. And to realize that, oh, I, I, nothing actually stood out, you know, and when I've reached that point, I know that I've essentially polished it to the point where there's, there's the rough edges, at least to me are not visible. It's kind I think it was like polishing a piece of, or like sanding a piece of wood or something like that. And I don't know if that's how other people do it, but I, I'm almost aiming for like, um,

not blandness, but there's nothing that sticks out, right? There's nothing that's grating in the mix, so.

Brian Funk (01:37:43.081)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:37:47.951)

I very much do the same thing. Get it to a point and listen in different places and then maybe do the laundry or the dishes or whatever. Something that's kind of occupying my mind a little bit. Because I'm kind of like pixel art. When you're mixing and when you're working on it, you're going like pixel by pixel and you're like getting them all right. But you have to be able to see what it looks like from a distance for those pixels to actually come together and make a picture.

Josh (01:37:55.811)

Yeah.

Josh (01:38:00.559)

Yeah.

Josh (01:38:04.665)

Yeah.

Josh (01:38:08.939)

Right, that's true.

Brian Funk (01:38:18.324)

Otherwise you're just looking at dots. And it's hard to switch between those frames of thinking when you're mixing to go from, I'm arranging the little dots to I'm listening to the big picture here. It's important to switch back and forth to that.

Josh (01:38:26.189)

Yeah.

Josh (01:38:31.863)

Yeah, yeah, sure, absolutely. Yeah, I think so. So let's see. We could probably talk all day, I've got to swim to get to, but yeah. But is there anything else that we think we should cover? Should we talk? Do we? Is there anything else that we didn't talk about? They're like, no, I think I want to throw that in there.

Brian Funk (01:38:42.994)

Yeah, I know, and you've got a swim meet to attend, so I don't want to...

Brian Funk (01:38:57.874)

Well, yeah, of course, I'm sure there's a lot, but I'd like to point out for people that are on my end anyway of this podcast that you've got a lot of cool stuff about the creative process in music, but also a lot of writing. And I think what's cool about what we're doing here, because my show is more music production focused.

Josh (01:39:20.292)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Brian Funk (01:39:25.288)

However, I'm always talking about the creative process, the artistic challenges, and half the things I say on this podcast are the things I say to my students in my English class when they're trying to write papers. It all connects and crosses over, and I've found the more I explore the way people see these things in other mediums, it helps me understand how to apply it.

Josh (01:39:28.483)

Right, yeah.

Josh (01:39:36.695)

Yeah, sure.

Josh (01:39:50.703)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:39:50.855)

in the musical medium. I think that's a cool thing about your show and for anyone that would be listening to my show. think whichever way you're listening right now, crossing over into those different areas can really open up some new doors and perspectives on the whole entire process of making stuff.

Josh (01:39:53.113)

Yeah, I agree.

Josh (01:40:11.639)

Yeah, yeah, I'd like to say like, you know, I,

I think even though, you said, you know, your shows about music production, think a lot of it is applies very generally. I encourage anybody who's interested in any kind of creative stuff to check it out. And because I think you'll find a lot of like, even with a different guest, although they may have different genres that they kind of focus in. Ultimately, you can distill it down to the same kind of concepts. They're talking about workflow. They're talking about how they work through creative barriers, you know, work through limitations and how

they find a time to do this or take care of themselves, show up for themselves in this way. I mean, think it's all, regardless of what you do, I think that's pretty applicable. I think that's really nice to get different people's take on it. So I encourage people to check out that stuff and your music. So we'll link to that in the show notes. So, man, we should do this again. I've enjoyed our talk. I enjoyed our talk. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:41:04.829)

Yes, we will.

Brian Funk (01:41:10.718)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it'd great to catch up with you again and see where you're at with all this stuff. like you said, there's a lot we can dive into. And I think kind of like what we said with the music and the art, sometimes it's nice to leave it with, know, leave the audience wanting more, leaving ourselves wanting more to come back for next time. So we'll have to do it.

Josh (01:41:20.323)

Yeah.

Josh (01:41:32.739)

That's true. That's true. Yeah, that's absolutely. Well, Brian, it's been a real pleasure. I hope you have a great rest of your weekend. Look forward to talking to you again. Absolutely. Thank you guys.

Brian Funk (01:41:40.092)

Yeah. Yeah, thanks for having me and thanks for being on my show and thanks for everyone that listened.

In this episode, we talk about how Joseph’s approach has evolved since our last conversation, why limitations fuel his creativity, and how visual storytelling influences his sound design. We get into his production workflow, how he finishes music quickly without overthinking, and why his favorite creative moments often come from accidents. We also touch on how the music industry’s changing landscape impacts independent artists and why Joseph is focusing more on physical formats and direct fan connection.

This episode is sponsored by Baby Audio, who are running a huge Black Friday sale until December 8, 2025.  
Save an additional 15% with the code: MPP15 - https://babyaud.io 

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Snakes of Russia Official Site - https://snakesofrussia.com/

• Swallowed Whole Through the Mouth of Eternity by Snakes of Russia - https://snakesofrussia.bandcamp.com/album/swallowed-whole-through-the-mouth-of-eternity

• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/snakesofrussia/

• Snakes of Russia Soundpacks on Gumroad - https://snakesofrussia.gumroad.com/

• YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@SnakesofRussia

• See Machine art by Morgan Sorensen- https://www.instagram.com/see_machine/?hl=en

• Evan Frankfort on the Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/blog/evan-frankfort

• Joseph on episode 341 of the Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/blog/snakes-of-russia-2

• Joseph on episode 175 of the Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/blog/snakes-of-russia

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.196)

Here we are. Welcome back. It's good to see you, Joseph.

Joseph (00:02.586)

Hey, hey man, good to be back. Absolutely. Yeah, likewise, man. Likewise. I keep him busy. I see the show has been pretty pretty awesome. Yeah, yeah, you I'm talking about you. Yeah, I see the show. Yeah, the show has been has just been great. It's been consistent. I've been listening along and everything. Yeah. It's awesome. Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (00:10.252)

Yeah, I can tell.

Brian Funk (00:14.447)

Brian Funk (00:20.713)

thanks man. Yeah, it's fun because I get to talk to people like you. You know? Like a little secret trick.

Joseph (00:24.86)

Yeah, you had a good friend of mine on, Evan Frankfurt. Yeah, Evan was... He's like as close as I come to like a mentor as possible. Like when I first moved to LA, I was working with his wife and I was introduced to him and he really...

Brian Funk (00:34.997)

yeah, cool, cool. he was fun. was very excited and passionate.

Joseph (00:52.688)

was a big part in helping me get set up with Pro Tools and everything. And he taught me a lot about Pro Tools when I had just started recording myself and everything. Yeah, he's a really amazing guy and a big part of me getting to this point, for sure. So it was just cool when I saw that episode pop up. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10.466)

Yeah. Yeah, it's awesome when worlds collide like that. You know, we said before we hit record what people in here is we said, well, you should probably just hit record and get going because sometimes you start talking and catching up. And then we realized we should have been recording all that. And Evan was kind of like that. And I just met him as we were talking. But right away, his excitement, his energy was showing me stuff around his studio. I'm like, OK, we got to start this right now.

Joseph (01:14.628)

I know, it's cool.

Joseph (01:26.587)

Yeah.

Joseph (01:39.502)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I would think that you, yeah, it's just kind of like, you know, when you're writing or sketching, you know, you want to just keep a chord as soon as possible and, you know, just kind of get everything and then just edit it later, you know. But yeah, I guess the same holds true with podcasts. Yeah. Interviews, you know.

Brian Funk (01:59.586)

Yeah, that's right. I remember you talking about that last time, how you like to get sort of like a something almost every day and hit record and then come back to it so that you almost aren't conscious that you're recording. Because if you wait until like, OK, OK, we've been working and now we're going to hit the button, then you know, you're under like your own observation.

Joseph (02:02.396)

Mm-hmm.

Joseph (02:14.757)

Yeah.

Joseph (02:20.6)

Yeah, yeah, especially with sound design. Yeah, with sound design stuff, it's kind of like, you know, just hit record early and then, you know, as soon as you get something dialed in, right, like a little bit, like, and then then hit record and then just take it from there. And then I find that it helps to have a like either go back right away and edit that. But it's more fun to just keep going and move on to another thing. And like.

maybe take those two sessions and break them up. Because I'm not gonna lie, going through an hour's worth of stuff, it feels a little tedious after you've just had the fun of jamming through it. So sometimes when you break that up into two separate days, it's actually more fun, I feel. For me, it works because then you get to kind of revisit it and go back. So I just like to compartmentalize those two processes.

Brian Funk (03:16.418)

I do too. I often do that second session in the car with just like a notepad and I just write down the times, you know, like if I was, you know, this way, you know, cause I have a pretty good commute each day. So I've got the time and it's, it's a fun way to feel like I'm still being productive and you know, writing down a number real quick isn't too difficult.

Joseph (03:24.464)

That's cool. I like that idea. That's... Yeah, that's a really cool idea.

Joseph (03:36.41)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Joseph (03:41.776)

That's super cool. you just, that's cool. So you just sketch real quick and then you just record everything and then bounce the whole thing and listen to that in the car. That's a great idea. I love that, man. That's really cool. Yeah.

Brian Funk (03:51.662)

Yeah. Yeah, sometimes whether it's like sound design stuff or just jamming, you know, those like long winded jams where 14 minutes into it something cool happens.

Joseph (04:00.272)

Yeah.

Joseph (04:06.332)

Yeah, yeah, but sometimes that's something cool even if it's only like 15 seconds It's certainly worth the whole entire thing and it could just spark an idea for a song or a record or a new project or something like that Yeah, so there's really no discounting it like it's really important, but that's a really cool way because it's it's almost like if I'm being completely honest like I have like I have a harder time with that editing process because it's

Obviously not as fun as it was when you're sitting there and messing around and making stuff that I'm talking about the editing process. So the idea of doing it as something like that secondary. That's a great idea. Or like maybe like just putting it on the headphones when you're cleaning your house or something like that. Like that is also probably a good idea. Yeah, because you just sit here and to think about editing, you know, 40 kick samples is just like it's a totally different.

Brian Funk (04:55.073)

Yeah.

Joseph (05:04.398)

way of thinking than it is to make 40 kick samples, you know, so, you know, with hardware or if you have a process that, you know, that you can just kind of flow creatively. Yeah, that's great, man. I'm going to steal that idea. I think that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (05:08.737)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (05:21.025)

Nice. Yeah, like you said, like those kind of average mundane things you might be doing, cleaning the house, walking the dog or something.

Joseph (05:29.624)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's that's great, man. That's a really cool idea. I like that. But yeah, I'm all about, you know, trying to find ways to make the creative process. I don't know. It's already fun for me. don't, you know, like the whole part of the creative process is fun for me. But there's obviously parts that are a little more tedious than others, you know, and not being one of them. So.

That's great. I love that idea. That's cool. Yeah.

Brian Funk (06:02.359)

Yeah, so you've got some cool stuff going on. I think the most exciting thing probably that you're reaching out for and all is the new record.

Joseph (06:13.53)

Yeah, yeah, that's coming out. Depending on when this goes live, the date on that is November 21st. So let me just let me check that. So I'm not misquoting myself. It's the 24th now. The 21st, November 21st, it is indeed. Yeah, the Friday, the 21st. Yeah. So this whole new record.

Brian Funk (06:35.725)

21st.

Joseph (06:42.428)

I wrote it really fast. had a really, really busy year and it kind of came together super fast, like the fastest I've ever made a record. And maybe it was more like, there was probably a lot of reasons why it was that fast. There's a few and we can talk about them all, like, but it was such an experience doing something and literally setting.

I've we've talked before about how I'm a big fan of hard deadlines. This was like that on hyper speed. was like, you know, I just I just knew I mean, long story short, like I started the year more or less in February with a pretty lengthy tour that I was on that was about a month long. And and I came home from that tour so inspired and and I wanted to make I just wanted to make something reflective of of.

of my experiences of the more I play live, the more I want to play stuff that I think translates live. So it was a response to that. It was also a response to my last record. Unfortunately, I didn't have the best, I didn't have the most positive experience working with a label. So it's just kind of like one of those things that I wanted to make something just

I wanted to have something new. It was kind of a lot of disappointment and I didn't want that to just be the last thing that I had was this thing that, if that makes any sense at all, I didn't want them to have the last thing, if that makes sense. So it was a combination of that. And then I was just inspired, just really got back from these shows and

and just had an idea, knew exactly what I wanted to say and exactly what I wanted it to sound like and just started writing and it just came out really fast. And then once I had about 15 sketches or songs or some of them like came, some of them like formed structure wise really fast. And once I had about 15, then I literally just set a mastering date. I'm like, all right, here we go. And...

Joseph (09:05.646)

And it was pretty, it was pretty good. I had a pretty good lead on it. Like it was like, was about 12 weeks out. So it was, it wasn't like I was, you know, trying to be a hero and do something super fast, but I just knew that I wanted something out by the end of this year. And, here we are. My records will come on Monday. So it's, it's just, you know, I, I knew what those guidelines, what kind of schedule I would be looking at. And I kind of just kind of reverse engineered it and,

Brian Funk (09:29.613)

That's cool.

Joseph (09:35.736)

Yeah, I just, you know, for creative impulse or just I wanted to feel like I had something new and I don't know. And also it had been two years, I think, since my last one. And I'm just a big proponent and just keep pushing ahead. So and I had mentioned some troubles with the last records process. And part of that was just waiting forever for it to come out.

I don't want that again. I want to do everything completely opposite the way I did the last record and a big part of that was self-releasing it again myself. So yeah, mean I'm happy to report everything is perfectly on schedule and that will be available at that date. Both physical and digital will be available that day. There's no pre-orders. Everything is just ready to go. So that's the way I wanted to do it and

to make that happen, needed to hit those pretty hard deadlines. And I'm happy to say I did. And I don't think I really had to compromise anything. It was, you know, I didn't, I'm a big proponent of the deadlines because it gets you to make a decision and move on. And I definitely did that. You know, it was like, okay, this, you know, this needs to be done. And could I go back and make changes? Do I hear stuff now? Of course. But I think we all do that. I think that's gonna be the case.

forever with our recordings, you know, but it's just kind of it speaks more towards just make something new, you know, songs are not songs are, you know, it's not like they're a finite thing. Like we can make more. We could make more records. We can make more sound. We could do everything. So I'm a firm believer in just kind of like put it out, share it with the world and then just do the next thing, you know. So that's where we're at. That's that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So.

Brian Funk (11:14.219)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (11:25.012)

I love that philosophy.

I've been born more by life. just keep drifting in that direction.

Joseph (11:30.79)

you

Brian Funk (11:33.931)

Because, yeah, like you too, I want the last thing I had, know, like the thing that's like at the top of the list of the things you've done, you want it to be something you're excited about. And I get bummed when I look and I'm like, man, it's been a while. And like that thing feels old now and people might check it out and hear that. like in such a different place. So coming out with a new thing and...

Being inspired like that, like going on tour, I get that a lot too. Sometimes we play shows with the band or something and I want to make a song that'll be good at this show again. know, like the crowd from last night will like this one and this will go over well and you get psyched on those types of things.

Joseph (12:03.142)

Yeah.

Joseph (12:13.732)

Yeah, exactly.

Joseph (12:18.684)

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, that's what it's all about, really. I feel, you know, and when we were growing up, like we didn't have that luxury, like making a recording and then putting it out for people to hear. was just like such a, a, like a, it was like a dream, you know, like to have someone, because there was so many people that needed to be involved. And now to think like I, could make something.

this morning and it could be out and millions of people could hear it by tonight is just great. So like I want to take advantage of that as much as I can, you know, with with a certain amount of obviously like quality control, you know, I'm just like I'm I'm a pretty, you know, I have a pretty rigorous like editing process for myself. And, you know, I I believe in just, you know, just hitting it every day and then and then kind of, you know, editing those pretty hard and be like, now this is this is not.

Yeah, this is it, but this is not it. And then, you know, put out. I just think that the key is putting out a good amount of good stuff, you know, like it's both quality and quantity. You know, it's instead of just, you know, releasing just put, you know, instead of just releasing a lot of things, this really is a good amount of quality stuff. I feel like that that's kind of like my way. You know, I like to kind of do it. So.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (13:43.564)

So you're like a top certain percentage of your stuff? Because you have a pretty, from what I remember you saying, like you like to do something almost every day. Put something, create some sort of sounds and.

Joseph (13:55.766)

Yeah, I mean, when I can, right? That's like, especially if I'm getting in a zone of, of like, making something like, fortunately, lately, especially this year, I've had, I've been involved in like quite a few different projects and they're all related to like what I do, but they're all, you know, be it, you know, music for film or video games or

a sound design project or a making of an instrument. I've been involved in a few of those this year, which I'm really thankful for and have made this year pretty awesome. But like what I do is like compartmentalize each of those processes. And then within that process, like if I'm just in record mode, sure, every day I want to make something for the record, be it a sketch, be it a sample or something like that. And then, and then just kind of give myself a certain amount of time to do that. Like for this record,

I got home from that tour and I just kind of went right into it. And then I said, okay, I'm going to spend the next, I'm going to spend the rest of this month. I think I got home in early March and I'm like, I'm just going to spend through April, just, just opening up Ableton every day and just sketching out a new idea. So, you know, I, what did I have like 20 ideas at the end of that month? And then I, and then that, you know, got worked down to like 15 and then there's 10 songs on the record. So that's pretty like, you know,

I'm pretty good at like, you know, if I know an idea is like, you know, I tried, but whatever, I'll just archive it because we save it and then just kind of start new. you know, I'm not that precious with something like I don't need to finish something fully, even though I started it, you know, like I'm. Yeah. So that's usually the process where it's like. So it's a pretty good. It's a good percentage at this point, you know, just but it's only because I've been just doing it for.

as long as I've been doing it. you know, my suggestion to know that people when they start is to just make stuff all the time and, you know, there'll always be good bits. And, you know, but until you show up and do it, you know, I feel like that number gets, you know, but still, I mean, I'm guilty of days that I'm just like, what am I doing here? Like, this is just, this is awful. This is terrible. I'm gonna quit and give up and...

Joseph (16:20.986)

I don't know, move to the desert. So it's, yeah, it still happens. It will happen, until the end of time for me. It'll always just, never, I think that's what makes us creative people, it's just the way we work. So yeah, but that's kinda, that's the idea.

Brian Funk (16:40.885)

Well, I like to believe that the duds make the other ones more special. If I showed up every time and just, you know, everything was amazing, I mean, that'd probably be fun for a long time.

Joseph (16:46.469)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:55.647)

but it would probably wear off too, right? Like there's something kind of exciting and thrilling that like, I don't know what I'm gonna get today. And a lot of times that's the thing that prevents me from getting started in the first place. But that thrill is kind of exciting. You're sort of driving the car when it's like you're turning too hard and the wheels are coming in the air. Like that's, I like that feeling.

Joseph (17:12.172)

man.

Joseph (17:17.722)

the best. It's the best. It's the best part of the process is that thing where like you say, I'm going to make a new blank, whether it be a record or or this or this, you know, this score or this project or this collection of sound design material. And and then it's just all about like and this is another reason why every day I do something different. Like and what I mean by that is like if I have a

like in March when I said I'm gonna just write every day. Let's say on Monday I wrote this thing and got it to like 60 % and it was great. Like I thought it was awesome. It's like, yes, this is what I wanna say. On Tuesday, wouldn't let myself go back to that one yet. I would start fresh. I would start fresh and write new because we don't get a, like I don't get a chance to do that very often. It's just in that small period when I'm starting something that I do and it makes every day,

awesome because I'm just like what's what are we gonna do today? What's gonna? What's gonna come out of this today, and it makes it so fun and creatively fulfilling And then there's plenty of time to go back and then okay and then like at the end of that period of time to go back and to re-re-revaluate all that stuff that we're doing and that's when we get our hands dirty and kind of like start replacing stuff and and and properly arranging and

Stuff but but yeah to have that period of every day waking up and just being like Today's a brand new day with a new and a lot of times what I do is I devote that day to like a piece of gear that I haven't used in a while You know, like I'm just like hey, I haven't I haven't messed with this synth in a long time Let's make today about writing something on that synth, you know some days it doesn't work Like we're saying it says some days. It's just it falls completely flat. But you know tomorrow, know, so

And you know, I made an instrument late last year, but it came out early this year for a company called Crow Hill. And it's a combination of drum and bass stuff. And the sessions going into that were super fun because it was exactly like what I was talking about. But I was just like, today I'm going to sample and work with the Moog. And then the next day I'm going to use the MS-20.

Joseph (19:39.322)

So to be able to just have a day where I go in on that one piece of gear and just have fun with it. And I'm like, I'm not even gonna edit this stuff. I'm just gonna go and just make sounds and just get it laid down. So, I don't know, it keeps it fun, it keeps it fresh. I love it.

Brian Funk (19:56.054)

Yes, you have a little bit of a project within these days of experimenting and writing and jamming. Yeah. I think it's a great way to work.

Joseph (20:01.774)

Yeah. Yeah, like it's organized. It's not, it's not like it's, yeah, it's where it works for me, you know, it works for me. And I, and I know there's people that will just start off on a, on a Monday, write something and want to finish that all the way through Friday. And I've worked that way before and that's fun too, you know, but for me, if I, if I have a, an idea, because I tend to go into things pretty

heavy concept, you know, like I know that I want this collection of songs to kind of all sound the same and have this vibe, whatever this vibe is. So for me to work that way, it really helps if I just brain dump on that idea. Same with sound design, same with making an instrument. Like I know that I want it to sound like this. And it's just, works better for me to do that. But someone else might be completely different.

And that's the beauty of what we do. like, it doesn't matter how we get there, you know, it's great. So yeah.

Brian Funk (21:05.651)

I enjoy that approach though of I'm going to try this thing or this plugin or these sounds or that guitar. I'm going to set up some kind of little playground for myself and see what comes out of that. Cause my biggest issue is always the paradox of choice that there's just so many options and directions to go. I really do need to.

Joseph (21:12.72)

Yeah.

Joseph (21:21.254)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (21:30.949)

say I can only go this far and that far within something and then how creative can I get in there

Joseph (21:36.121)

Yeah.

That's man, that's so important. I really think. I mean, I do it. I don't know if it's subconsciously or or. But I set those parameters for myself, like for that library I just talked about for Crow Hill. I said just as a as a as a guideline, as a limitation, I'm only going to use analog source. So all the sense in my studio and all the ones that I was able to borrow.

As long as it's an analog source, I could use it for this project. And it wasn't because I'm like some purist or anything. It's just because it created some kind of like, it created like a barrier, like a kind of creative limitation. And I fully believe in creative limitations. Like I think that's kind of how I get the best work. And I did some music for a film earlier this year and I made my palette very simple. just like, it's like, I can only use upright bass samples.

and synth and those are the only two melodic instruments I'm going to allow myself to use and just like, know, whatever I can pull out of those things. And not only does does the limitations just make things, I don't, easier as far of what you said as far as the paradox of choice, it gives it a palette. It makes it sound a certain way that's unique, you know, because at a certain point, like,

it's gonna be cohesive and it's like, you know, those, you know, those things don't sound like you can pull much of a range out of them, but you know, you certainly can. And it was great. made it, and it's fun to talk about. It's great. You know, when the director found out that I had done that, he was like, that's awesome. You know, and then we talked about it in, you know, when people asked about the music, you know, I said, yeah, I kind of limited myself to this.

Joseph (23:32.396)

I love things like that and I love hearing that. love hearing, you know, like some, you know, when our heroes made their records, you know, they only had eight tracks or 16 tracks. Like that's just incredible. Like I love it. Like I'm all about limitations, you know? So.

Brian Funk (23:50.568)

What is the name of the film?

Joseph (23:53.592)

the one that I had finished earlier this year is called Human. It came out, it premiered at Fright Fest in London earlier this year. It's great, it's just a wild, wild horror film. And it's going to some other festivals and hopefully it'll find some distribution so everyone can check it out. But it was one of those where I was introduced to the director and he sent me over it to watch. I was just like.

This is the craziest thing I've seen. People are going to love this or hate this. Like I don't think there's going to be any people who are like, I was OK. So I'm like, I'm in. So yeah, it was it was great. So yeah, hopefully by the time this podcast comes out, there'll be some more Intel on that too. Yeah.

Brian Funk (24:25.161)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (24:38.89)

Cool, yeah, I'd love to see it, because I always think your music sounds very cinematic and kind of, and horror a lot too. It's the day before Halloween and I've been listening to the link to your new record and like this is the perfect music for right now. And it's not, it's like end of the world Halloween type of stuff, you know, like really intense.

Joseph (24:46.695)

cool.

Joseph (24:53.137)

huh.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, mean, you know, yeah, I mean, mean, that's it. Like, I like to paint a picture, you know, like I'm a pretty positive person. Pretty, you know, all of any and all frustration I have goes usually goes into the music and it's instrumental. So I don't I really can't express that any other way but to paint a picture of some, you know.

some scenario or some, know, lot of my influence, like it's just film and, you know, so like that, that, was those two worlds are just very like, they're just connected to me so much, like film and, and the music I make. So yeah, but that's awesome to hear, man. Thank you. Like, I think that's kind of what I'm going for without going for it. It's just kind of like what comes out, but, but, but yeah, yeah. But there was also a reason why, like I wanted, I'd rather, I mean, I'd rather

every record of mine come out around Halloween because it's just the best time of the year so it's you know to me so you know so yeah so yeah that was kind of a plan.

Brian Funk (26:08.426)

Well, I'm glad you're not channeling that energy in your regular life.

Joseph (26:11.994)

Yeah, I wouldn't want to hang out with me at all if that were the case. Yeah, no, I just yeah, it's like Playing these shows and stuff and and and I don't you know, I don't talk on stage. I don't have a microphone and People are always kind of shocked to find out that I'm just not a total jerk When they come up talk to me after because at least I don't think I am but you know, yeah, it's just

Yeah, that's what music's for. It's only, you know, I I spent a long time co-writing pop songs, you know, with people and, you know, it's, to have lyrics to challenge, you know, emotions into is great, you know, but it's, you so, but I don't really consider it that much more of a challenge with instrumental music. It's just kind of like, this is just.

This is just how it kind of how how it comes out. This is really, you know, like that that part of my mind that goes into the music, you know, because, you know, we all get frustrated, we all get sad, we all get, you know, angry like those are regular human emotions. And I think they're healthy to go through. And I just choose to deal with them this way.

Brian Funk (27:28.562)

I like doing that myself to sort of embody. There might be feelings I have, there might be feelings that passed real quick or even just sort of imagined myself having and let a character be in the music and embody that and kind of get to experience it, you know, vicariously almost. And I don't...

Joseph (27:38.438)

Mm-hmm.

Joseph (27:45.584)

Yeah. Yes.

Joseph (27:52.665)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (27:55.626)

Usually, anyway, I think so much of what I do is like, this is me and who I am in the moment. I mean, that comes through a little bit, but I don't ever want to be psychoanalyzed by what music I make because it's sometimes just like, it'd be kind of funny to explore this character's way of thinking, this little version of myself if I was this way and put that in a song.

Joseph (28:03.066)

Right. Sure.

Yeah, yeah.

Joseph (28:20.54)

Yeah, I remember one of the last bands I did where I was singing, was fronting it and at the time I had the apartment, had the girl, had the dog. It's like, am I, am I angry about anything? And it's like, was really aggressive music. So I just, I looked at people like Tom Waits, know, where it's just like, it's a character, right? So I just started writing songs about, know, grave diggers and space travel and stuff. And it was just, you know, just,

Brian Funk (28:35.197)

Yeah.

Joseph (28:50.086)

put myself into a character and stuff. And maybe I'm doing that now, maybe I'm doing, you know, but the character is a world, it's you know, like more, you know, cinematic, like you said, and just kind of, your visuals really inspire me. I found the art to this record really early on in the process. It was by an artist that I follow on Instagram.

His name is Morgan Sorenson. He goes by C Machine and and I followed his stuff for a while and I'm just like Man, it's just incredible and one day he just posted these two images and I'm just like that I need that like that that is what this record looks like and I hit him up and it was great and and we you know, and he licensed them to me and I just had that on my desktop for the entire time and

And it's so simple. It's just a really simple thing. But I just like this is just the starkness and what this is. So there's a lot of stuff like that. Like I get really inspired by just, you know, photos and movies and stuff and just kind of, you know, keep those keep those in my mind when I'm working on stuff, you know. So, yeah, it's very important to me.

Brian Funk (30:11.547)

Is this the album cover art that I'm looking at on the SoundCloud that you're referring to? It looks kind of like a snake and maybe a balance of some kind. It's like an infinity snake through a triangle. Yeah, it's interesting. It is. It's clean. It's black and white.

Joseph (30:16.25)

Yeah, yep, that's it. Yep. Yeah, yeah, and, mm-hmm, that's it. Yep, yeah. I saw it. Yep, yeah, that's his style, and I saw it, and I was just like that, you know? So I usually like, it's funny how I usually kind of like...

Brian Funk (30:38.525)

That's what this feels like.

Joseph (30:43.096)

start things with that in mind. Like, like as I said, I go into things pretty high concept. So it's like, I always have that idea of what it's going to look like, what it's going to, you know, how I want to present it before the music is even there. So this was no different. You know, this was just that, like that, like that, that image still on my desktop. It's just, it's been there the whole time. So every day I fire up the computer and I have that, that image right there. and it, and it kind of

know, drove the whole thing, you know, so yeah, super important to me.

Brian Funk (31:17.225)

Yeah, it helps you unify it, right?

Joseph (31:21.904)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (31:24.059)

I've always felt albums tend to take on the color scheme and the artwork when you first pick them up and look at them. They start to just sound like that to you, especially when it's done right, I guess.

Joseph (31:37.24)

it's so important, Yeah, it's so important. mean, think about our favorite records growing up. It's kind of in the beginning, like walking into a record store, at least for me, like that was the first impression that we had of a record. I mean, I remember, and this is insane because they ended up being one of my favorite bands, but like Faith No More, I completely discovered 100 % just by picking up that CD, looking at the front, flipping it over, looking what they look like. I'm like, these guys look so cool.

and bought it and it was just like they became my like it's that's insane to think about like that's the way it happened i didn't hear anything on mtv i did i didn't i didn't hear anything on the radio i think it was in just the new releases in in my local record store so that that's magic like that i doubt that'll that'll that i'd like to think it happens like i'd like to think you know like

Brian Funk (32:06.899)

you

Brian Funk (32:11.069)

Yeah.

Joseph (32:29.338)

I mean, it still happens with me to a degree where I'm looking at them like, look at that record cover. That's super dope. And I'll check it out. And it's become easier and easier to do that now. I don't have to like buy it and then go home and pop it in the CD player. like, you know, so I just love that that hopefully that happens to other people too. And maybe it'll happen with my record. I don't know. Maybe someone will see that awesome artwork and be like, what's this all about? So yeah, it's super important to me to have that whole package. 100%. You know, the cohesiveness of it all.

You

Brian Funk (33:00.605)

Yeah, especially when you like the way you like to work, there's that theme in just your process too, of the way you're working, experimenting and tying things together. You're not really like the kind for the most part anyway that you have these songs since you were, you know, whatever age and now you're finally putting them out. It's more this episode you're going through.

Joseph (33:07.749)

Yeah.

Joseph (33:24.7)

Yeah, yeah, but but sure, but at the same time also, like I mentioned before about archiving stuff, like I think that's important too, because it's it's it's I always like to go back and listen to stuff that I've done in like, either recently or a while ago, or I probably do that once a year where I go back in and listen to the stuff that I've saved, because everything gets saved by date, you know, everything has a date. It's like

and then I go back and I just listen to some of that stuff. What I started doing recently, which has been super helpful, which I can't believe I haven't done in the past, was I would bounce, like if I, whatever I work on that day, before the day's over, I just bounce an audio file of that, and then I just put that in its folder, so I don't have to like open up the entire session. I can't believe, like it's insane that I'm just doing that now, but...

But yeah, that makes that makes going back and listening to stuff way easier because I could be like, what's February 14th? And then I could, you know, listen to that audio file as opposed to going and opening up the entire session. But I think that's important, too, to kind of go back and listen to that stuff. And sometimes it's like, you know, yeah, I'm here now. I don't. That was where I was then. And but sometimes there's something in there. There's like a.

a bass line or a kick drum or something like that's cool. Why didn't I ever use that? you know, yeah, I mean, even sometimes within the process like this record, I had some songs that started off completely different. And then I was ready to just kind of throw them away. I'm just like, that's you know, that's not that's not great. And then I just there's just something in there where I just pull out that one piece and then make a whole new track. And then it turns out to be like one of my favorite songs on the record. So. Yeah.

I think, I get what you're saying and I think it's important to keep looking forward and moving forward and like, you know, but it's also like smart to archive stuff and, you know, give stuff a second chance sometimes because we might be in a different place with it, you know? So.

Brian Funk (35:33.107)

Yeah.

Just as that is often the problem I have when I let too much time pass that I'm not there anymore. That's one reason I like to work fast is because I'm still in that zone. But it's something that brings you back or you hear an aspect of it. I'm very much less likely to go into an old session and open it up unless I know what I'm looking for. But I do that too. I'll make the bounce. The bounce does two things.

Joseph (35:45.626)

Yeah, and that vibe, sure.

Joseph (35:53.328)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (36:05.676)

One, it goes into my Apple music and if I hit shuffle or random, it might come up. So it might just come find me once in a while. But...

Joseph (36:10.49)

That's cool.

That's cool. Yeah.

Brian Funk (36:18.116)

It also just gets me to get into the arrangement view and put something down in a linear fashion instead of a lot of times I like to be in session view within live. And you know, have these like ideas that they're just kind of floating around, but they don't have any ground yet. When I get to the arrangement view.

Joseph (36:28.604)

Mm-hmm.

Joseph (36:35.61)

And you're like in Loopland, yeah.

Brian Funk (36:39.976)

then I've sort of made some decisions about it and move forward and even if I'm not ready to do it, something is there now. So that helps a lot too.

Joseph (36:47.322)

Yeah, that's cool. Is that the way you work? start in arrangement and then move over to, I'm sorry, the other way. You work in session or clip and then you go over to arrangement.

Brian Funk (36:58.724)

A lot of times, yeah, a lot of times. Not always. I tell you, the thing I've been really enjoying lately is to just play into arrangement view, just maybe guitar or something, and have that be my guide. Because you can, and I keep talking about this, I gotta make a video of it. In live, you can set your clips.

Joseph (37:00.591)

Yeah.

Joseph (37:10.246)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (37:25.168)

rather than following the grid, can make the grid follow your performance. yeah, so I've been just doing that, playing some guitar and then sequencing drums and they just lock in with my guitar playing, not the other way around. Yeah.

Joseph (37:28.568)

Yes, that's super cool. That's super cool.

Joseph (37:39.322)

That's awesome. That's that's really cool, Yeah, I used be that way, too. I mean, I think the first three or four years I was in live, was in I wrote in, you know, session or Clip View, and then I would just write like like and then I would go over to arrangement and arrange everything. But then all of sudden, like in the last like

five years or so, like I've been just strictly in arrangement. And then even live, used to be for live shows, I used to be clips, clips, clips. And now I'm in now even without I'm in arrangement. So, yeah, I so for for me to like pop over to Session View land, it's like super fun and exciting. like stuff, cool stuff with like when you start like is it when you randomize the clips with the follow actions and stuff?

Like that, you can get into some really cool sound designy, you know, things like I find like with bass, with bass and stuff like running the same MIDI and well that we could do that. Yeah. In arrangement too. But yeah, I don't know. I just love Ableton is just the perfect playground in so many ways. So yeah. Yeah. But you need to do that video, man, because that's really cool. I mean, even I like I want to see how you do that. Super cool. Yeah.

Brian Funk (38:40.498)

Yeah.

Joseph (39:01.852)

I haven't messed with that, but I know what you're talking about and it seems so cool.

Brian Funk (39:06.704)

It's wild because you can do it both ways too. You can play the guitar and then sequence things over it, or you can have things that you've already been sequencing, then play your guitar into arrangement and it just all goes along with it. And it has the subtle changes or maybe not so subtle changes in tempo.

Joseph (39:19.366)

That's cool. Yeah.

Joseph (39:26.693)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:26.948)

I'm just really interested in that dimension of expression, the BPM. Like for so long, I've just by default played to the click, played to the grid. And now I'm kind of like, no, let the grid play to me.

Joseph (39:33.916)

Yeah.

Joseph (39:43.98)

Yeah, yeah. Right, that's great. I love it. love it. Yeah, that's perfect, man. mean, yeah, as the as my live show kind of like evolves and stuff, like it's still just me, which which just is just it's sustainable, you know, for me for now. And, you know, it's so much easier for me to tour by myself. And the second I add.

more people it just becomes you know a little bit more complicated but I mean that is the plan you know to scale up that way and the next thing would would easily be a drummer and I think about all those possibilities with that and like man it would be really fun to do exactly what you just said but with drums like how can we how can we make it move a little bit and get off

get off the track and get off the click and stuff. So yeah, I'm always thinking about stuff like that and how that would be super cool to do, you know, but yeah.

Brian Funk (40:44.76)

I saw a cool video of you playing, I think with two drummers, right?

Joseph (40:49.06)

Yeah, that was that was very early on. was for like not super early, but it was for the last record. And if someone dropped a bag of money in my doorstep and I was able to do any kind of, you know, touring situation I wanted to, it would I would definitely it would always be with two drummers because there's just something cool about that, like that visual. But yeah, so was very intentional for that video to kind of get get get that idea out. And and but yeah, I just love I mean, that's

In my head, the perfect live band incarnation would be that. But I realized that it's just, I mean, just bringing one drummer on a month long tour is enough of a challenge, nevermind two. yeah, but one day we'll get there.

Brian Funk (41:36.466)

think I've woken up in the middle of nightmares. I think I've woken up in the middle of the night having nightmares of having more than one drummer.

Joseph (41:44.484)

Yeah, mean, it's just the logistics, you know? mean, and you know, I'm doing almost all support stuff, you know? So it's like my, I try to make my footprint and change over and everything in stage space be as like compact and easy as possible, you know, like on and off within minutes. So the idea of like,

Brian Funk (41:48.849)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (42:09.969)

Yeah.

Joseph (42:10.608)

first band out of four and having two drum kits is just a little bit funny. So yeah, that'll happen one day, you know, but, but for now, you know, yeah, I do. I, I, I, like a mini van, you know, and just put, it's just me and I do all the driving and all the load everything myself and sell all the merch and stuff. You know, that's for now, like it's

Brian Funk (42:17.445)

Yeah, that's like a tour bus situation. I imagine you could probably travel in a car, right?

Joseph (42:39.26)

great, like it just works. You know, it's like, but you know, as again, like I'm always into pushing things forward. So I know that if I add, you know, other people, it would just elevate that. And for me, that just looks like adding a drummer, you know, which is I grew up playing drums. It's like always the first thing on my mind. So just adding that live drummer would be like the next step, I think. And then so, yeah. And but but.

you know, just becomes everything just becomes a little bit that trickier and, and, know, cuts into money a little bit and stuff. So, but it's something I think about and look forward to doing as soon as I can, you know, and hopefully that'll be sooner than later, you know? So, and then, and then, yeah. And then eventually the two drummers, but, but for right now, just, just I'll take one, you know, just, yeah.

Brian Funk (43:31.655)

I love that video, that was really cool with the two drummers and you're kind of like in the middle of it.

Joseph (43:36.486)

Cool. Yeah, that's, mean, that's kind of the idea I had from the get-go. And yeah, the director, who was a good friend of mine, we worked on a lot of stuff together. He saw it immediately. was like, yeah, I get this. And then we went and visited that space, and it was just perfect. But almost the entirety of how it looks is his idea. Yeah, my buddy Daniel Lawrence Wilson is his name. He's incredible. So yeah, that was all his doing.

But I just said, I want a video with me and two drummers. And then he just took it and ran with it, yeah. So yeah, I mean, and then going into this new record, I kind of did just the opposite where I just, I filmed some of what my live setup is now, which is a modular case, a very small keyboard controller, and

some drums and I did some full on hit play on both the video and the recorder and just go through what my live set is. I did that in this studio recently and I've released one of those and I have a couple more that are released. So it's kind of like, you know, it still feels like what a performance would be, you know, and it's just a little bit different.

So, and it's more indicative of indicative of what the of what the live performance is now, you know, yeah.

Brian Funk (45:12.005)

Right, you had the case, think, and then it was two drums, like electronic drums with samples, I guess. And it like maybe you had something else you were hitting on the rims of those.

Joseph (45:16.366)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah.

Joseph (45:23.086)

I had so it's it's yeah it's two V drums I mean and there turns out to be like a lot of there's a lot of like floor tom stuff on this new record I went in and I recorded a lot of live floor toms and I wanted and I wanted that you know to be part of the live show from this point forward so it's a little bit easier for me to carry two V drums than it is two full-size floor toms

especially like flying with them and stuff. So yeah, it's two V-Drums, so I have triggers on the heads and the rims, and then I have two of those pads, those two rolling pads on each one. So I actually have four triggers. I have the two toms and then the two pads on each, one pad on each tom. Yeah, so it's cool. It's so much fun, you know? And really kind of lifted the live show a little bit, because before that I wasn't really hitting anything.

So, you know, and I changed, I changed like, I used to have like more of a table situation and I got a brand new kind of stand just to make it look a little bit cleaner and everything. Yeah, I'm loving this new live setup and you know, I think it translates a little bit better because there's, you know, some live drumming and stuff. So yeah, there'll definitely be more of that, you know, yeah.

Brian Funk (46:46.215)

It's good. I thought it gave it like a tribal vibe. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Big, huge toms.

Joseph (46:49.774)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of that. Like that was definitely where my head was at with this new record of like, you know, just exactly what you just said. Yeah, so, and it was so much fun. Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:03.975)

It's a cool mix because that's so deep in our ancestry, that kind of stuff. But then you got the synthesizers, the modulars and stuff that's so futuristic and current.

Joseph (47:12.443)

Yeah.

Joseph (47:18.416)

Yeah, yeah, just, and it's just, you know, just energy just with the drums and toms. It's just, you can convey so much energy just like that. And almost every song from this new record, it's like, like I do have writing templates, you know, as I got like, and at each, every writing template had like a set of big floor toms, you know, and that was like so almost every single one of these songs started off with some kind of like floor tom pattern. I was listening to a lot of

There's a few neurosis records, you know, and they were heavy on floor toms and stuff. And this band called Swans, just that kind of just primal drum stuff is, you know, that's that those are my head was that this this time around, you know, because I just I just wanted I kind of want to just evolve with each thing. You know, I already have an idea like what the next thing would be. And it's just way different than this. And I don't know. Hopefully people that dig it.

will come along for the ride. I'd like to think so, you know? So yeah.

Brian Funk (48:20.954)

Are you using live, Ableton Live to play live?

Joseph (48:25.104)

Yeah, yeah, so I have that. Yeah, because I want to stay pretty true to the records. have like a like a rough arrangement and then I have I'm playing some live keys, some live drums. I'm sending a few channels of mini to the modular case and then everything kind of gets gets run through my master channel in Ableton. And then I have like mute solos effects.

Brian Funk (48:26.8)

So is that kind like the brain that everything's running through?

Joseph (48:53.308)

beat repeat, delays, filters, all that stuff that I basically just kind of like run stuff in and out of all all those master effects and I'm always chopping stuff up and changing the arrangement. I have some clips that I launched on the spot that are just launched on top of the arrangement as is and stuff. So I come up with like a basic arrangement that differs a little bit from the record. And then I try to kind of do a

you know, just just live kind of remix of that and make it so it's dependable enough that the show happens. But also also just it just just there's, know, I could miss a cue and come in and not on the one. And yeah, you know, just where it's like it's just a need because it needs to happen. Right. It needs to be, you know, I can't I can't have just it not happen.

Brian Funk (49:32.358)

you

Brian Funk (49:38.372)

Yeah, enough danger too.

Joseph (49:48.59)

you know, but it's but it's at a point where like I try to make it a little bit dangerous and you know, and I I keep I keep pushing that line more and more that you know, it'll just become I mean, I'd love to just get off of I'd love to get off of the tracks a little bit more but at the same time it's just me and going circling back to the conversation of it being sustainable being just me, you know, I'm sure the more people I add into the fold the the

you know, the more I'll pull out of the track and have stuff to do live. But for now, it just works. And I feel, you know, it's just, it's kind of like, it's fun for me. Like I have a great time and I think if I'm having a good time, I think, you know, hopefully the audience is too. So yeah.

Brian Funk (50:33.99)

definitely. I think that's a big part of it. I've seen bands that I didn't even really like the music, but I was like, these guys are fun. Like, look at them. They're having a great time. You know? So that's huge. And that's cool too, because if you start adding elements, those are the things you can pull out of the tracks. You know? And then that also gives you the freedom to, if you can't have everybody, you can just bring them back in.

Joseph (50:42.552)

Yeah. Yeah.

Joseph (50:53.4)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Joseph (51:04.124)

Yeah, yeah. So I think also, again, I was talking about how the live shows kind of inform the writing almost more so that direction than the other way around. If I knew that I was eventually going to have a live drummer, definitely the records would reflect that. I would write parts that I'd want.

that I'd want a live drummer to play rather than have them just play what's there. know, like I've done it before. Like I've done, you know, like a record release show for the last record where I had drums and bass and me. And it was cool. It was great. The energy was awesome, but they were just simply playing the parts that were there where I think I would interpret it like, you know, if I have the ability to use a live drummer and then other parts, like I would write for that.

Brian Funk (51:52.325)

Right.

Joseph (52:02.094)

You know, like it would definitely make that a thing so it's interesting for everybody and then then translates that way and it's not just they're simply You know playing some parts that are already there, you know, if that makes sense if that makes sense I mean, obviously if I'm playing older stuff, you know, they'll they'll have an interpretation of that. So yeah

Brian Funk (52:15.824)

Definitely.

Brian Funk (52:20.816)

But yeah, knowing that you're going to have that, that takes you in a new direction. When you start with that in mind, yeah.

Joseph (52:25.692)

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I I think about thought about that yesterday because of course I'm always thinking like, okay, what's the next thing? You know what I mean? I mean, I literally just, you know, got home from a pretty lengthy tour, like about 10 days ago. And I had some, you know, like I decompressed for a couple of days and then immediately I'm like, all right, what's next? What are we doing? Like, you know, cause I'm, cause you know, this, this record is done and everything. It's like, you know, besides just

put it out and there's nothing else I could do. So I'm already thinking, I'm like, all right, what's the next thing? What do I, what do I want to say with the next thing? So I'm already thinking in terms of like, what, you know, what do I do to push the, the, you know, push it just a little farther? So yeah, super important for me to think that way, you know? So.

Brian Funk (53:15.962)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, a lot of people say that. And I love Steven Pressfield, the author of War of Art. he's like, I think he said, like, you know, the day you finish your manuscript, start the next one. a good job, keep going kind of thing. And I like that. Just don't sit around too long. Yeah.

Joseph (53:24.22)

Ugh, so good.

Joseph (53:33.372)

100 % Yeah, man 100 % Yeah, it's like what else Yeah, I mean I have a really hard time like not I don't know like I just when my son was born I Was was the last time that I like tried to take some days off? and it was it's a hard time and You know, I mean he was it he was

You have three, four days old. Like you just like he eats and he sleeps most of the time. So, you know, I remember saying to my partner, I'm like, is it does it make me a monster that I want to go in there and like write some music right now? Like, you know, he's he's sleeping. Like, what else can I do? You know, so it's it's that like I just which probably is the most healthy thing, you know, that I I have a hard time doing that. But I, you know, it's just it's just how I feel like I need to be right now, you know. And.

but yeah in in terms of like finishing one thing and just moving on to the next and You know, I don't like to spend too much time Thinking it's even like even listening to stuff, you know that I that i've done in the past like I I just kind of like to leave it alone You know, I know like when i'm almost like if i'm sick of something like this record is a prime example where like after the mix process and after the mastering process i'm like I almost hate this. This is probably a good good sign, you know, like i'm just

I don't know, it's just like, I don't know. It's not, I'm sure people have different ways of working and that's awesome because it's just whatever it takes for you to make art and put it into the world, then that's great. But for me, that's definitely the way, make it move on. I don't know, keeps my creative juices flowing, I guess.

Brian Funk (55:27.872)

I think so. get that. And hey, know, I'm sure the music you came up with when your son's three days old, like you can't tap into that again. Right? Like that was, that's a once in a lifetime moment. Your firstborn son is, and now you, this is what's coming out of you. So.

Joseph (55:41.103)

No, yeah.

Joseph (55:46.372)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (55:50.05)

I think, yeah, I feel like that about really anything that every time I show up, I'm a different person. And the situation is different than what happened to me today and who was there and who's there with me or not there. All factor into it. So I can't.

Joseph (55:57.891)

Yeah, man.

Joseph (56:08.078)

Yeah, man, 100%.

Brian Funk (56:11.951)

can't recapture that. yeah, infinite.

Joseph (56:12.432)

Yeah, there's so many variables. No, there's so many variables too. You know, it's, it's, it's, you know, yeah, that's, that's why we just got, if we're in a vibe, if we just got to, you know, go and chase it and then, you know, but you know, I, I, yeah, that's why like I, I, that whole idea of waiting for inspiration. I'm just like, I just don't, for me at least, I just don't subscribe to that. I'm just like, we, you know, sitting, I'd be sitting around, you know,

Brian Funk (56:40.963)

Waiting,

Joseph (56:41.08)

Forever if yeah, just you know, but sometimes you know, but sometimes that's not true Sometimes it just do it's so fucking inspired but sometimes but but most of the time now, man I'm just I'm just gonna you know, I'm just gonna go get after it and and you know, see what comes out then Some things it just does not work and it's just you know, like, you know like I've had I had a few of those on this last record where it was just like where's like I'm just beating this idea to death and this is not happening. And you know, that's

That's okay. Like you need those like you need you need those days where you're just like, what am I doing? Like what, what is this? Is this like, is this even like, you know, like I feel like it's just part of it's such so part of the process and it makes, like you said, it makes those other days feel even better. You know, the, you know, the highs and lows. So yeah.

Brian Funk (57:34.02)

Yeah, I think the only time I ever get struck by the inspired lightning bolt is when I can't do it. You know, when I'm like at work or I'm like away or something. But the best way to make it show up for me is to start doing something, start moving with it and tinkering and then things happen. I don't, I think if there's like any kind of magic to this.

Joseph (57:40.796)

yeah.

Joseph (57:49.872)

Yeah, yeah.

Joseph (57:55.812)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:00.514)

I think it needs to see you stirring that cauldron. like, you gotta be in there stirring the pot for the magic to arrive.

Joseph (58:04.676)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and I've spoken about this before and it's almost it's like borderline dangerous to think this way, but we're all like we're always like if we with with electronic music, it just tends to be kind of gear oriented, right? It's always about the thing. And it's not just like if if we were writing, you know, if we were writing rock records, it's just literally, you know.

It's very simple because it's big guitar and then every once in a while, you you get a new pedal and that changes things. But I think with electronic music, most of the time we're kind of chasing new gear and stuff like that. And I don't like to fall into that trap of like, I need this thing to finish this record or I need this plug-in to make this. But there's nothing to me more inspiring when you do get a new tool.

And especially like a sample library or a new synth and, it's just like, I can't even make it through like half of the demo patches or the presets without like immediately like starting to write something like that's incredible. Like that's beautiful. like, don't like, so I try to, I try to be fair to myself, you know, to, to when it, when it comes time to like, say, like to use new tools and stuff. Like I don't, I don't like.

I don't I try not to. Like obviously I'm like it's obviously important to like use the things you have you were surrounded by. But like as far as like yeah I mean sometimes there's nothing more inspiring by getting a new a new piece of gear and a new plug in because it's just you instantly are inspired. And I said the thing about guitars but it would be the same thing too if you if you get a new guitar you're just so inspired to play that thing and you're just and you wind up like writing stuff.

Joseph (59:57.008)

You know, so I know that sometimes the gear last can get out of hand, but sometimes it really does work in our favor, especially for me with like new sample libraries and stuff and, and new soft synths or something or man, it's just like, like I, sometimes I can't, I can't even make it through. Like I think presets are great. Right. I mean, I don't, I don't, because they just really just help explain what a piece of gear does. And sometimes I don't even, I've never.

I've never gone through all of them because I get to number six and I'm just like, this is cool. Let me just start recording something and tweak it and make it my own and stuff. So, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:00:41.861)

Yeah, I mean, I agree and that's always so fun and I think that is really the driving force of when I want to get new gear is that I'm going to have those moments.

Joseph (01:00:50.14)

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:00:52.416)

Maybe it's like eating dessert or something or taking a drink. You gotta do it in moderation. You gotta be reasonable about it. If you buy every new thing that comes out, then nothing's kind of special because you're just looking at everything else. Wondering what else things... Yeah.

Joseph (01:01:02.18)

Yeah.

Joseph (01:01:07.408)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I think there's a middle ground of like...

this is fun and new and exciting and inspiring. And then that's like a really healthy way to look at it. And then the other side is like, well, I'm not gonna be able to finish this record until I buy that thing, which is like, mean, more often than, like, it still, happens all the time where I'm like, where I see some flashy, shiny new thing, like, especially with a plugin, right? And then I'm like, I'm pretty sure I have something.

that would get that job done already. And turns out most of the time I do, you know, so, and then it gets me to go look at other stuff that I haven't, you know, that gets lost or something. Or sometimes, you know, we go and we, you know, we get a bunch of new samples or libraries and they kind of get buried in the drives. And that's why sometimes, you know, going like, just as I archive songs, like going and...

You know, like if something, here's a funny example. If something doesn't have, if something is in the contact player library and it's just, you have to load it through the files menu. It might as well be like, I'm just like, I'll just forget about it. Like I'll forget about it. So, which sucks. so, so I like to go through and remind myself about those things and those tools because, you know, there's some gold in there that we forget about and they don't, you know, just because they're not in like a contact library official.

Brian Funk (01:02:30.904)

Yeah.

Joseph (01:02:46.692)

So yeah, I'm rambling, but it's kind of like, you know, I love the idea of, I think there's a fine line between, you know, like the gear lust and just being inspired by a new tool. think it's, you yeah.

Brian Funk (01:02:48.642)

Well, no, you're right. I go through that too.

Brian Funk (01:03:03.812)

Well, physical objects, it's here, right? There it is. I can touch it, I see it. But your plugins, your samples, they go on your computer and they're just gone. You know, gotta go find them. So having some, I use those collections inside of Live's browser. Yeah, remind me. I have one called Try Me. And that's like, don't forget to use this. Yeah.

Joseph (01:03:11.942)

Yeah.

Joseph (01:03:16.162)

Yeah. Yeah.

Joseph (01:03:21.961)

I was just gonna say that. I was just gonna say that. Yes.

That's great. I love that. And you're just constantly updating it all the time. That's cool. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:03:34.53)

Yeah, I'm probably at the point where I need to start deleting things from it just so that it's not becoming its own infinite list of options.

Joseph (01:03:43.308)

Right, right. And then you have like the really try me folder. No, I kind of do the same thing. Like when I get like if it's audio samples, like let's just say it's a collection of kicks or something or just a collection of audio samples. I'll go through and I'll go through everything, like all of them, listen and pick out my favorites and do that and put them in one of the collections.

Brian Funk (01:03:48.312)

Yeah.

Joseph (01:04:09.244)

Or tag them or tag them. I'm sometimes tempted to get rid of the stuff that I that I know I won't use But I don't just for some reason I just hang on to it But yeah, I think that's super important with with if we have information like that You know like like that's not like you said I'm not like a physical piece of gear Yeah, I think that's super important or what I what I what I also like doing is if it is drum stuff I'll make drum racks out of it and then

put those drum racks into a collection. And then, so they're right there and I can grab them. Yeah, that's important, man, because I've gone back and I've been like, that's right, I have that. That's really cool. Why don't I use that more? But to speak to the same thing, I think that's the reason why it's super important to have all of your synths, you don't have to find a power supply. They're patched in.

They're plugged in, they're just like, cause if you need to do, if I need to do any of that, like I'll just, I'll just pull up serum. You know, but like, so, so I think that's super important also to have like, you know, the pieces of gear that we use the most, kind of like, I want them to be right here and, and they're always, they're always either just one patch point away and they're always plugged in, you know. Yeah, it's kind of the same logic. Yeah.

important.

Brian Funk (01:05:35.492)

Mm-hmm. Just be ready to go. Yeah, that's funny. I've gone to buy plugins only to find out I already have it. Like, you go to the website and you log in. I'm like, oh, I have that. Like, if a new update came out or something, I'm like, this looks so cool. And it's like, oh, yeah, I bought that two years ago.

Joseph (01:05:38.757)

Mm-hmm.

Joseph (01:05:46.62)

you

Yeah

Joseph (01:05:57.212)

Guilty I mean, yeah, done I've done the same thing man. It's it's pretty it's pretty funny. But yeah, you know Templates are great too for that because it's kind of like and then changing your your templates Every once in a while like tweaking them to with some new stuff. I bought I have on my desk now This stream deck so it's it's basically like

Brian Funk (01:06:00.704)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:06:24.196)

Hmm, okay. I have one. Yeah, I don't know what to do with it yet to be honest. Yeah, I got something like that, but it's got knobs too. It's smaller though.

Joseph (01:06:26.012)

Let me see if I can bring it. You do?

This guy. This. So I have.

okay. Okay. So I have, I just basically went through and I have all of my, all of the Ableton devices and plugins that I use on the daily, just kind of programmed here. And I mean, I know one could argue that like, it's just a simple, like what command F and then, you know, like it, it shouldn't like, but it's just, it does. I've really

feel like it does, it is kind of a productivity thing and it kind of shaves off, you know, by the end of the day, it's shaving off, you know, a significant amount of time because I could pull up, you know, like Pro-Q with one thing here. So that's been a kind of pretty amazing productivity hack that I've recently.

Brian Funk (01:07:20.644)

So you have those buttons for individual plugins and devices.

Joseph (01:07:25.55)

Yeah, I mean, I essentially have audio track, MIDI track, and then all my favorite Ableton devices, all my favorite plugins, all my favorite VSTs. Yeah. So it's, it's, just becomes one button. And, and I, it's the first time I've ever done anything like that. And because before I was just like, let me just search for it real quick, or let me put it in the favorites or, or, but it is, it really does. I have one for bounce too.

and it just, really does like save a lot of time, especially if it's like a perfect example is utility, know, like I have, I have utility on, on, you know, like every, every track by default, but still it's insane how much, how much we need to use utility. And, that's a great one to just, I just have plugged in here. Yeah. So it's, it just loads up super fast and I find I love it, but, but how it relates to this topic we're talking about is like when I was programming the screen.

I had gone through every plugin I have and I'm just like, what do I use? What do I, what do I do not use? And I kind of got rid of stuff that I hadn't used in a while. And then what, and the stuff I really used, I put in here. Yeah. So it was, was good, but yeah, it's just kind of a little thing, a little thing that I, that I kind of integrated this year and I, and I, do love it. I do. I could certainly work without it. Like it's like, you know, if, if, if I'm on mobile, just laptop, like, sure, I could work without it.

But when it's here, I love it. It's great. I'm a trackball person. have this kind. I know some people are like the thumb trackball and some people are like the index finger. But that is something that I do not have. I'm just paralyzed. I try to bring that around when I travel because I'm like laptop.

Brian Funk (01:09:04.866)

Yeah.

Joseph (01:09:21.862)

touchpad, I'm I'm useless. You might as well tie like one of my hands behind my back. So yeah. So, but it's funny, it's ridiculous that these little things, but we're just so used to them. We're so used to our spaces and being in here and you know, we're sitting here all day. So yeah, I think that stuff is really important. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:09:39.094)

Yeah, that's cool. So yeah, I've got this stream deck and I was talking to somebody that was saying he was using it for that kind of stuff and I thought it'd be nice for switching camera angles. I just never really figured out how I wanted to program the thing. So it's kind of just been sitting around.

Joseph (01:09:57.2)

Right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:01.879)

I could see what you mean because I thought the same thing like what do need a button for a new audio track like I know the key command it's pretty quick but I mean especially for like the devices and stuff yeah I could see that

Joseph (01:10:09.466)

Yeah.

Joseph (01:10:19.086)

Yeah, it's I use it less actually for for audio and mini track and more for devices. It's kind of like, you know, it's definitely my go to for and it's also the muscle memory thing where I know where each one of these is and it's like and super fast and in the beginning. Sure. In the beginning, I had to remember that this was here. So but over time after using it for about nine months, it's been like great, you know, again, I could totally could totally be gone tomorrow and I won't.

But I feel like does save a lot of time. It's one of those really cool kind of productivity things.

Brian Funk (01:10:56.587)

into it more. It's been on my to-do list for a while.

Joseph (01:10:57.692)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I get it. Yeah, I think it was originally intended for streaming actually. Yeah, I think that's whole time. Yeah, so Yeah, but Yeah

Brian Funk (01:11:05.441)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:12.695)

I'm interested in this kind of deadline process you did with this record. The record's called Swallowed Hole Through the Mouth of Eternity, right? Which is a great title, by the way. I love it. It's just, I don't know, it sounds like going into a black hole or something.

Joseph (01:11:19.267)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Joseph (01:11:25.724)

Yep, yep, yep. A mouthful. Yeah, it's a mouthful. Yeah. That's all I have. I don't have any lyrics, so all I have is my titles. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I had, you know, I had kind of a notepad where I just wrote down title after title. I have like so many titles and I'm like, all right, what's this? What is this need to put? What does this need to sound like? And, you know, so.

Brian Funk (01:11:41.516)

Yeah.

Joseph (01:11:55.918)

And then I was able to pull two song titles from that because the first song is called swallowed hole and the last one is called through the mouth of eternity. So yeah, I like to have phoma titles again. It's really all I have, you know, so, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:12:04.131)

Yeah, it's cool.

Brian Funk (01:12:10.815)

So when you got back from tour, how far out did, when did you decide to set that mastering date? I guess is my real question. Did you already do some of that kind of sketching first or did you just say 12 weeks and let's start.

Joseph (01:12:18.084)

Man, I think I got, so I got back.

Some.

Joseph (01:12:30.115)

Um, some, like I was probably about like, so I got back, I got back mid March and like, I think I maybe just chilled out like a day or two. Um, and then, and then I just kind of like, uh, came down and started hashing out some ideas. And I think I was maybe like two and two weeks into writing and I'm like, and I just, I literally looked at the calendar and, and, and, and. I mean, to be honest, unfortunately, a lot of this was really fueled by my.

I just animosity how the last release was handled. I just wanted something. wanted like, I was like, wait till I get a record of my own. I had first released my first vinyl release and that just went swimmingly. It was great. And then I just kind of had a lot of issues with the way this last one was handled. So I just like, I mean, I got to put something else out. I wanted to do it myself again. So I literally just said, I just, just.

kind of just reverse engineered it. I'm like, want that to come out this year. And I just kind of worked backwards. I said, I've been writing for two weeks and I'm just like, let's just do it. Let's just schedule this mastering date and do it. And then of course, a week later, I was just like, what am I doing? This is insane. I don't want to compromise. I knew I didn't want to compromise. So I knew, you know.

I've worked with Justin, my mastering engineer for like over 10, 10, 12 years. like, he's like, I knew like, especially that far out. Like I, I mean, I had mastering scheduled. mean, I think it was like maybe three months out. So like, I was just like, I knew if I called him and said, dude, I, know, does he know that I worked that way?

Brian Funk (01:14:11.869)

Does he know?

does he know like I don't have the album yet but we're gonna be mastering on this date

Joseph (01:14:18.204)

He didn't know, he didn't know that. But we worked together so long that like, you know, but I think when we first worked together, when we first started working together, I think I had done that for a few projects and like I didn't finish. And he was like, he kind of alluded to...

Brian Funk (01:14:25.634)

Yeah, that's cool.

Joseph (01:14:46.5)

Like, OK, well, let me know when you have it done and then we'll get it on the books really fast. And then believe me, I'm really respectful of people's time and I don't want to, you know, like I don't like canceling or being late things because I'm just respectful of people's time. Right. So I knew I knew. But that being said, it's kind of like obviously like with 12 weeks away, like it would have been it would have been fine if I needed to shift or move. But but I.

I and I had my moments of doubt where I'm just like there's a fine line between me Compromising just I don't want to just put a record out to put a record out like that's lame But I also you know, but I do I do believe and just like let's let's just do it Let's get this done like this, know What is it like for me to write and and you know work on this thing as fast as I can and all the film and you know

stuff I do is fast. That's all like, you know, I, you know, I spent, I spent a lot of, a lot of time doing customs for trailers and all that's super fast. Like that's insane. That's all that work is done within hours. So I'm like, why can't I just take a little of that energy and put it into this? And the longest part of the process for me was the mixing where I feel like it should be. That should be where most of the bulk of the time was where I, I would mix stuff pretty fast. And then I would have

And then I would have like almost like four or five days before I even listened again. So I have the perspective of then I went back. I mixed everything. I mixed everything, all of them once. So I didn't go back and listen to a song. And then I just did everything round two and then around three. And then if something needed around four. And then it just, that's how I also mixed. Which again, wouldn't work for everybody. But for me in this time and the way I did this,

So yeah, I did. probably, it was probably a little insane of me to have that mastering deadline that early on in the process, but I don't know, man. It's just like, that's just the way I felt like I wanted this project to go. You know, I just wanted this to, you know, to just be that way. And I'm, I'm, glad. And our thing, are there things I would have done differently? 100 % of course. Are there, do I hear stuff? And I'm just like, I really should have done that. Yes. But

Joseph (01:17:12.57)

That's just the way it is. I think that if we keep having that, we'll never put things out if we just keep thinking about it in those terms. Yeah, and now that I did it at such a really ridiculous pace, I don't know if going forward, if I won't ever, I'll probably always do it that

You know, like I'm just like, I'm like, you know, maybe the only difference would be that I would, that I would spend, I would spend a little more time going in and making a palette. Cause I, every other record I've done, I've spent a pretty substantial amount of time kind of making a palette of sounds, samples, loops, things of my own to pull from. And I only did that for maybe about a week with this, with this one.

You know, it was very just kind of like, you know, I just wanted to get the ideas out. So that would be the difference. Maybe the next time around, I would still be really aggressive with my deadlines, but I would, I would factor in a good couple of weeks of, of exploration, you know, and not to say I didn't explore enough this time, but I would, it would definitely be an emphasis going in on making a, a palette. Yeah.

That's it. I hope that answered your question. that's kind of like, you know, I just kind of went for it.

Brian Funk (01:18:41.75)

Yeah, Well, I think it sounds cohesive. I think it has a sound palette, the record. I mean, the songs sound like they belong together. And I think you have, I think some, you know, in listening to you talk about this, I think some interesting things are working together for you. So you don't like to disrespect people's time and you're really conscious of that. So.

Joseph (01:18:48.764)

yeah.

Yeah, thank you. mean, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:19:09.158)

setting that deadline really makes it a real deadline for you because we can set deadlines for ourselves and we can always be like, well, it looks like I'm not going to make it. But for me too, like if I have band practice, like the last thing I want to do is have to send that text and be like, sorry guys, you know, I can't do it or, know, any, anything, any kind of deadline, anything we're working on to

Joseph (01:19:14.298)

Yeah. Yeah.

Joseph (01:19:27.9)

Yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:19:34.708)

letting them down hurts more. And some of the other things I do, my music production club, not having something ready for them when it's supposed to be ready, it's just, yeah, it can't happen. It'll eat me alive, probably way worse than it would bother any of those people. The band would be like, all right, no problem,

Joseph (01:19:44.444)

It's It's accountability. Yeah.

Joseph (01:19:53.348)

Yeah, I mean. Yeah, with the accountability thing, man is really huge and. A long time ago, I mean, maybe this relates, but but when I left my day job about 11 years ago, I. It was a year prior, a year like on New Year's Eve the year prior I had texted four friends for really close friends.

And I said, if I'm still here a year from today, I owe you $500. And I'm like, I know that you'll probably just, I want you to hold me to it. I want you to hold me to it. And it was ridiculous and I was probably drunk. But six months later I had left. Like I'd left. It's that accountability. I don't know, it was just a simple tool, a simple device, and it was almost a little bit ridiculous.

Brian Funk (01:20:50.389)

Lost a version there too.

Joseph (01:20:52.128)

Right. Yeah. Well, there's that too. There's like the whole psychology of that. you know, if like winning something or losing something or losing something is much more of a a motivator, it seems right. But

Brian Funk (01:21:00.949)

Yeah. Losing 500 bucks is way worse than the good of winning 500 bucks. Okay.

Joseph (01:21:05.912)

Yeah, I mean, he would have been too. It would have been $2,000 for me because I so I sent that text. I sent that text to four different friends and I'm like, I know that when the time comes, I don't want you to be like, dude, it's OK. Like I want you to really hold me to this. Yeah, but they didn't have to. Like I left it August 1st. So yeah, so. But I mean, I also had in the middle of the process I had a I had a day that I was recording live drum, so I also had.

to be at a certain point with the songs for that. And that was a very, very, very, very loose. It basically, it put a chapter in. So it was like, if I broke it up into parts, it was kind of like, I had like the almost month of just sketching. And then I had a little bit of arrangement time. And then once I tracked some drums, and those are pretty loop based. So it wasn't like I was tracking to a total structure.

So I had that and then once I had that part done, then it was like, okay, let me really dig in, really arrange and like sound design. And then the last little section was the mixing. And so like that helped a lot because to have those like little kind of deadlines, yes, checkpoints, perfect. It helps a lot because if you just, because it's pretty daunting if you're like, okay, well we have, and then originally,

Brian Funk (01:22:22.753)

Checkpoint kind of things.

Joseph (01:22:36.763)

I thought it was going to be 14 songs. And then I listened to a bunch of my favorite records and I'm like, hmm, this only has 10 songs. And then when I let myself be like, let's just make 10 that I feel great about, like letting myself do that and then kind of being off the hook for a few of these extra songs and then cutting it down to 10.

That was also a good step too. But yeah, I mean, I'm not going to lie. There was some points where I'm just like, this is insane. Like I don't, you know, and I don't, I don't think it's some crazy big feat. I mean, I know that, you know, like some people probably record records in like a day, you know, like I don't, I don't think, I don't, you know, it's not like a badge that I'm wearing. It's just kind of like, it just works for me. It's just, it's just kind of like the hard deadline thing really makes me, makes me, finish stuff, you know, and, and

like you said, creates the accountability, which I think is huge, you know? you know, and just, but yeah, it all started with, I want to put out a record this year and I want, I want it, I want people to have it in their mailboxes, both email and their post office mail, you know, like I wanted them to hold a record by the end of this year, so how do we make that happen and not compromise anything? this, you know, yeah.

That's it, they arrive Monday. I'm pretty stoked, yeah, man. And I don't feel like I've compromised anything. I don't feel like had to, and especially taking some of these songs and putting them in my live set and playing a bunch of shows, they translate, like I'm stoked. So yeah.

Brian Funk (01:24:23.457)

Yeah. And you mentioned too, like, yeah, are there things I would change or do differently? I think that also serves you because you're excited about the next thing. You've got things to consider and improve upon or maybe just adjust that is an important part of the whole process that keeps you going forward instead of, again, just, I'm going to take forever to get these things perfect and you'll never get there anyway. So.

Joseph (01:24:32.634)

Yes.

Joseph (01:24:43.931)

Yeah.

Joseph (01:24:50.478)

Yeah, yeah, finish this better than-

Brian Funk (01:24:52.481)

I could see how this really, a lot of the consequences of this workflow serve you in continuing and moving forward and staying productive.

Joseph (01:25:04.506)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, I make no mistake, like, like after mastering, I was just like, I don't want to hear this thing for, you know, I don't ever, you know, I mean, it was like, probably a good month before I was able before I started working on like the live versions. And I was like, okay, you know, so yeah, I mean, I definitely like, there's definitely that part of just of working through that part of that, you know,

that little dip of like, is terrible or this is too much of this thing or this isn't right. And working through that part is probably one of the most challenging things. But I'm sure if someone's kind of into what you're doing, they don't know, they're not experiencing that with you. They're just excited to have new music from you, hopefully. And...

And I'm stoked that there are a few people that kind of dig what I do and would be excited about this collection of songs. Because I'm excited about them. So, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:26:14.622)

Yeah, well you said it, you know, no big deal, lots of people put out records, but I believe it is a big deal. because I've been there and I know there are times when it just seems impossible. Where, how does this ever get done? You just get those moments where you're this is, you don't even understand how it could ever happen. So I take a lot of...

Joseph (01:26:27.537)

Yeah.

Hahaha

Joseph (01:26:37.2)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:26:39.12)

satisfaction and joy out of someone like you that finishes something and has it to meets those goals because it it's kind of proof it's evidence like it can be done so when I'm in those kind of dark moments when I just don't know anymore and

Joseph (01:26:50.81)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:26:57.376)

It's comforting. So I think it's a big deal for you personally, but also your listeners and just other people that are trying to do it too. Thanks for doing it because we need any encouragement and any kind of hope we can get sometimes because it gets tough.

Joseph (01:27:10.81)

Yeah. man. Thanks for listening. Yeah.

Joseph (01:27:21.584)

Yeah, it's, it's, it's. Yeah, I mean, there's not a lot you can say really other than just keep pushing through and just keep making stuff and then, but it's never been easier than it is right now to share stuff with people. And that that that's a big part of it. You know, we can make stuff, but if that stays on our hard drives, you know, and sometimes for some people that's great and that's all they want. And that's awesome. You know, they just want to.

to be able to play it for themselves. And like I have a buddy that made a record and pressed it on vinyl so he could play it in his living room. And that's awesome. Like sometimes like, you know, but I really think that like the jump of getting it from the hard drive and sharing it with somebody, even if it's one person is just the biggest jump you will have to make. then once you make that jump, every other time you try to make that jump, it's going to be easier.

So that's the thing. It's just like, this is something that if you do it, it'll get easier the next time. It just is.

Brian Funk (01:28:25.78)

Yeah, you're right. That first one is always hard. I'm lucky I was so young when I did it, you know, I was in high school. So we were, it just was part of how you did it. but yeah, it's, always a little scary and it's, but,

Joseph (01:28:29.434)

No, it's yeah.

Joseph (01:28:33.798)

Yeah.

Joseph (01:28:38.993)

Yeah.

Joseph (01:28:43.834)

Yeah, it's almost like it's become, the easier it's become, the harder, the more scary it is to do because it's kind of like, you know, back in the day to put out music and to share it with people, I think about how many steps were involved, right? And then now there's so few steps, but yet it's become way more daunting, you know? Yeah, I get it.

Brian Funk (01:29:02.111)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:29:08.884)

Right? Yeah, all those steps and challenges and ordering CDs and getting them pressed and all that was so hard. Now I can just sit in my bed. If I wiggle my finger the right pattern over certain websites and stuff, press the right little buttons. It's just a matter of like, it's like a magic trick. just, just my fingers on the keyboard.

Joseph (01:29:15.95)

Hahaha

Joseph (01:29:21.158)

That's it.

Joseph (01:29:25.168)

That's it. Yeah. It's crazy.

Right. It is. Yeah. I mean, out of all the out of all the stuff that I could be like an angry old man about, that's one thing that I'm not. That's one thing I think is incredible. Like like like that, that it's become that easy for us to make art of many forms, you know, be it film, visual art, you know, music and share it with people instantly is just beautiful. It's incredible. And and, know, but but that being said,

If I had come up like that, I don't know where I'd be. I'm really glad that I came up in the way you're just talking about. I'm really glad that there was, you know, with lack of a better term, there was gatekeepers, right? There was just, you know, it was hard. was, it was to make like the thought about, you know, recording and then putting out something and then having anyone, anyone at all hear it was, was just such a far-fetched crazy idea that when it became, you know, and if I, if I had grown up,

in a world where I could just make stuff on my laptop and upload it to SoundCloud that night. I don't know if I would end up being this same person. Who knows? So I'm kind of glad that I came up the way I did, for sure. Especially to be able to speak on limitations and stuff like that. Like being able to have only 16 tracks to express an idea. Yeah, so I don't know. It's cool.

Brian Funk (01:31:01.258)

You're right, it is amazing because I can remember sitting down with a cassette tape in a dual player and just play record and that's how we made our tapes to sell at our shows, just real time, one at a time.

Joseph (01:31:12.678)

That's it, man. Yeah.

It's beautiful though. It's so great though. think I love it. I'm so glad that I came up in an era like that. I really am. I don't like to wax nostalgic too much, it's such an important part of just being a music fan. I'm as fanatical about music as I was when I was 15.

I'm still the same fanatic about the bands I like, the records I like, the gear I like. Like it's still, I've not lost any of that. And I think that's really important. And I'd like to think that that kind of carries its way into the music that I make and share with people. So I'd hope it would, you know, so yeah.

Brian Funk (01:32:07.229)

Yeah, I think it does. I'm feeling it. You're communicating that to me for sure.

Joseph (01:32:10.268)

Cool. Yeah.

Awesome, Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:32:18.015)

So maybe we'll wrap it up then. It sounds like a nice place to stop. Nice positive note. Hopefully...

Joseph (01:32:21.404)

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, man, well, yeah, so...

Brian Funk (01:32:32.061)

Yeah, we'll still be feeling that by the time this comes out. Snakesofrussia.com is your hub. But the record will be out, I assume, everywhere, right? We can stream and...

Joseph (01:32:36.284)

I would hope, would think so. Yeah, that's that kind of leads you to everything.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, should be like, mean, if you go to snakesorrusher.com, that leads to both my band camp and like my gum road for either merch and records or sample packs or that kind of leads to that. would be yeah. And it'll be out streaming on all the things and there should be I'm releasing another music video tomorrow, which as we're recording this is Halloween. So by the time

you're listening to this, that'll be out too. So there should be, and I'm gonna, I need to step up my YouTube game a little bit, so I'm gonna do, I think I'm gonna do some walkthroughs of some tracks. I'm saying it now for the accountability. I'm gonna, I'll promise, yeah, I'll promise that there will be some walkthrough videos and stuff like that, because I think that would be interesting to people. So yeah, so that, those would be, I'll probably get on those probably early next year.

Brian Funk (01:33:26.749)

Well, I would love to see that.

Joseph (01:33:44.112)

And I do have something pretty big that I worked on that's coming out early next year too that I can't talk about, like I'm bummed I can't talk about it, I'm so excited about it. But that should be out in February and should hopefully take things to another level. But yeah, tons on the way, tons. As long as people keep listening to it, I'll keep making it, right? I'll probably keep making it anyway, who cares? But yeah man, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me again. Always so much fun, talk to you.

Brian Funk (01:34:06.271)

You

That's awesome. It's great to have you and yeah, I'd love to have you again when the excitement begins up once again. But the new album's awesome. It's, like I said, it's especially cool to listen to right now, this time of year, the winter's coming, Halloween and all. it's, you know, sound design stuff is great. I love your, the way you use space too.

Joseph (01:34:18.972)

Right, right. Yeah. Awesome, man. Yeah.

Joseph (01:34:30.786)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:34:38.707)

You have a lot of restraint in a lot of stuff, I think, allows us to really take in these sounds.

Joseph (01:34:39.021)

cool.

Yeah.

Joseph (01:34:47.952)

That's cool. I just couldn't hear that way because it's completely intentional. Yeah. That's good.

Brian Funk (01:34:52.413)

Yeah, because the sounds are so cool if there was too much going on, you'd kind of miss some of those details. But at the same time, too, I'm also really impressed with how well everything sounds when it's all going together, too. Everything has its own spot and just really well-crafted stuff. Beautiful. Dark. Yeah, all that good stuff.

Joseph (01:35:12.636)

Cool. Awesome. Thank you, man. That means a lot. Thank you. Yeah.

I will say one additional thing about the process is that part of the editing is definitely like in those initial writing sessions, I'll just pile stuff on. Like I'll just throw things, everything on it. Like I generally like start with the biggest part of the song, make an eight bar loop, just throw everything on. And I say that like when the editing and arrangement begins, I'm more taking stuff away than I am adding for sure. Taking stuff away and replacing.

So, think, and that is, I think is important because it's like, want every, every frequency range to kind of have its representative, you know, and, and, and it's a feel full, but I'm always seem to be taking away because I do think that, yeah, I mean, there, there is the, the, the space is kind of a very important theme, you know? Um, I wanted to feel full without feeling overwhelming, if that makes sense. But thank you for saying that, that, that, yeah, that, that, that definitely.

It's intentional, cool. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:36:21.311)

Well done. So thank you, sir. Snakes of Russia, everybody. Check them out if you haven't already. And if you enjoyed this conversation, we had two others, which I'll link as well. So all those will be in the show notes. Thanks for coming and thanks for listening, everybody.

Joseph (01:36:24.058)

Yeah, man. Yeah, dude. Awesome.

Joseph (01:36:34.609)

Yeah.

Joseph (01:36:38.534)

Yeah dude, happy Halloween.

Brian Funk (01:36:42.996)

We did it, man. Another one, a trilogy.

This is the fourth time I’ve had Tommy on the podcast, and every time we talk, I walk away feeling inspired and energized. In this episode, we talk about the evolving role of artists in a world increasingly shaped by AI and automation. We explore how commercial work shaped Tommy’s discipline, why he’s now leaning more into slower, more intentional creativity, and how important it is to stay connected to what truly matters to you as an artist. Toward the end, things get philosophical—and I think that’s where some of the richest moments come through.

This episode is sponsored by Baby Audio, who are running a huge Black Friday sale until December 8, 2025.  
Save an additional 15% with the code: MPP15 - https://babyaud.io 

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Making Music For Brands- https://www.makingmusicforbrands.com

• Tommy's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@studiozeeandco

• KMRU on Ableton's Blog - https://www.ableton.com/en/blog/kmru-on-the-art-of-sharing-music/

• Tommy on the 307th Episode of this podcast - https://brianfunk.com/blog/tommy-zee-3

• Tommy on the 188th Episode - https://brianfunk.com/blog/tommy-zee-2-music-production-podcast-188

• Tommy on the 122nd Episode - https://brianfunk.com/blog/2019/8/15/tommy-zee-making-music-for-brands-music-production-podcast-122

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.343)

Alright, welcome back Tommy. Good to see you.

Tommy Zee (00:03.264)

All right. It's been so fun chatting to you before we even press record that. Just worry that our best bits are now not available to humanity.

Brian Funk (00:16.947)

I think we stopped ourselves in time so that we can get the good stuff.

Tommy Zee (00:20.622)

Just when you felt the eureka moment coming, you're like, could you stop right there?

Brian Funk (00:28.789)

Yeah, it's a funny feeling and it does happen every once in a while in the beginning of these where you're almost like, something's cool is gonna happen, hold on. And with that, you run the risk of losing it too. It's a tricky thing knowing when to hit that button to record.

Tommy Zee (00:44.95)

also true.

There you-

Yeah, I think that's why you should always press record.

Brian Funk (00:54.497)

It's like performing music too, you know?

Tommy Zee (00:55.896)

like just have record on. Of course, the trouble with that is like you end up with like three hours of tape and you're like, who the hell is going to want to sift through that? But that's where our friend AI, we've just been talking about it before you press record, that's where it does become your friend. So I found and we can get into the thing that we spoke about, which is the dangers of AI.

Brian Funk (01:08.854)

Yeah.

Tommy Zee (01:24.972)

the incredible dangers that I see to...

humanity and our creativity and our imagination. I don't want to sound like some kind of a

Tommy Zee (01:38.283)

negative.

doomsday kind of person. But this is just coming out of personal observation, right, of interacting with this thing and seeing where it goes. But yeah, if you press record on a conversation and you do three hours, what I found with AI is it's very good as a secretary. So dealing with data. So I give it three hours and I'm like, could you find me some patterns in there? Or could you like...

Brian Funk (01:41.313)

Mm-hmm.

Tommy Zee (02:08.962)

dig up like an archaeologist any mention of this or that. Excellent as a secretary, even as a kind of pattern recognition thing, which it is. It's a calculator, right?

But,

I just started getting very...

interested in the fact that I got almost emotionally involved in these conversations with AI because AI is speaking to you in an emotional way. It's using a lot of adjectives. It's very eloquent.

It's very much in the conversation, meaning like...

Tommy Zee (02:51.636)

every sentence follows the one before. So you're like, I'm having a really fluid, inspiring conversation.

Tommy Zee (03:06.254)

And like we said before, we started recording. You're like, yeah, it's pumping you up. You're great. It's complimenting you. And if you don't have any distance between observing what is happening in that interaction and you actually get lost in the conversation like you would with a human being, I think that's where the danger is. And the danger is because that's not a human being.

It gives zero shits, I'm sorry for swearing, about you. It really does.

It. I mean it. How can it care, right? So it's almost like a huge lie because the words are expressing care, emotion, support.

But it's like your calculator talking to you. How could it possibly have those feelings? So in a way, it's a fundamental lie to even use these words. Right? So that's what concerns me a lot. And so all I want to say, I guess, to start this AI topic is it definitely is going to have a place in our life. There's no doubt about it. I've used it with great effect.

for, like I said, sifting through transcripts of my meetings. It's been very good that way. Finding patterns in conversations. It's been really good that way. I like to speak into it, like Churchill spoke, walking around the room, preparing his war speeches. Yeah, it's great for that, because you just say what you want to say, but then it kind of organizes it for you.

Tommy Zee (04:59.31)

But if you start leaning on it like you would on a human who cares about you, that's one. Number two, if you stop using your imagination or your concept ability to come up with concepts like ideas, they may not be your own. There is nothing new under the sun. But I mean, I think every creator is asked to synthesize some things that already exist.

But in their own way and in their own context. Because there's not another person like you in this time and space with your experiences. But the ideas that AI is feeding you are so good that you're just tempted to run with it. You're like, well, that's a great email to send. I'll just send that. Or just ask it for album ideas. Feed it a few things. It'll give you amazing album ideas. Conceptual.

like, do it in this time signature, do this, do that, it'll tell you everything. At one point, Brian, was like, dude, is it working for me or am I working for it? Because if it comes up with the idea and it's going to actually send the email and it comes up with the album idea, and soon enough there's going to be automation built between the DAWs and the AI, just like AI is building all kinds of...

connections with your email program, with Google, everything, right? So it can do the task for you.

Tommy Zee (06:32.024)

You're like, okay, so what's my role here at some point? I'm just executing commands of AI. So I'm actually working for AI now. I'm just executing its ideas. So that's where it gets dangerous, I think. And I think any aspiring creator and human being who aspires to stay human, and we know that that's probably not everybody.

Tommy Zee (06:59.022)

Because soon the temptation is going to be like, would you like this AI right inside of your head?

with these ears that can pick up conversations from a kilometer away and these eyes that can basically scan anything up to five miles away and identify the object and then like tell you everything you need to know about it. The temptation is great to say, yeah, I want to be superhuman. Right. So a lot of very interesting questions, don't you find like.

Right now, to ask yourself as a human being, like, where do you stand on these things?

Brian Funk (07:37.921)

Absolutely. You've tapped into one of my favorite uses of it, which is feeding it my own information, my transcripts from the podcast. Very interesting to get information, tips, strategies. Hey, what's something I can do to make a song that I haven't done before or that I don't really talk about a lot or that I mentioned that I need to do?

I've put in my book of music making activities and it'll give me some ideas so I don't have to go through it. And so it's all my own stuff, which that feels great. That feels like I have another Brian Funk on the side sifting through everything. And then now I get to choose what I want. I think your use of the word synthesize is effective here. We...

We might not have original things for the most part, you know, as creators, but the synthesis we do is original, almost like a synthesizer. We get the raw waveform and then how we work with it, how we sculpt it and filter it and add effects to it. get our own original sounds from it. So that's an important thing to be doing. The part that

I'm feeling pretty good about as far as like some of the dangers go if you're just following or if you're just working for your AI, like you said, I enjoy making music. I enjoy that act. enjoy solving the puzzle of like, what, how can I change these lyrics? So they rhyme or they fit or, what can I do with this rhythm? How can I make this part different? So I'm not too worried about it. Taking that away from me.

I guess if the ultimate goal is just the product, just the song, because I've been there too where that's my focus, I need to finish something, I need to make a good piece of music.

Brian Funk (09:49.269)

then I could see yourself slipping into relying on these tools to just get that product. But I think it's taught me that I really enjoy the process as much as sometimes the process drives me crazy and it challenges me and it frustrates me. The actual act is very exciting when these things are starting to come together, when the melodies are happening and I'm starting to see the song come into focus. I love that and

Having it spit out or having the DAW suggest too much for me takes that away from me.

Tommy Zee (10:27.846)

You touch on something very important here, which I've realized since working with AI, and that is it really challenges you to question your motivation for why you're doing something.

I'll give you an example.

Tommy Zee (10:49.378)

I want to be able to write. Like you said, I want to write a song, I want to finish it quickly, I want to write an email, I want to finish it quickly. I'm looking at my feed, I'm seeing other people releasing stuff all the time. Daily emails, four times a week YouTube videos, this, this, this, boom, boom, boom, right? And you're like, feel this compulsion to keep up.

And you're like, AI is here. can help me to finish it quicker. And then I started thinking. But what is your motivation? Do you just want to publish something, anything? Because then you feel like you're participating in the noise like you're publishing. You're not left behind because you did publish three or four or five things this week. Or is your motivation

Which which gets weird because then it's like, I just want to be seen. I just want to be seen. I want to get that email out there, I want to get that video out there, I want to finish that song. And it's like, so you just want to be seen. Right, that's this is purse. This is me personally analyzing my own motivations. And I thought that was really crappy in a way, just a bad reason.

to try to keep up with that speed, to use AI to help you just finish things quickly. And the foundational motivation is off. It's like. Do you not want to express something that you find important and carefully crafted and struggle with it and wrestle with it a little bit?

Tommy Zee (12:43.462)

And the temptation is great because you have these NASA grade algorithms that are like, we want to try to figure out the transition here for. We got the entire history of music codified in our algorithm. We'll tell you the three things, three ways the song could go based on historical research, based on

Correlated with chart charts in the past 30 years of what it and you're like, yeah. Yeah.

Right? But then the question for me is like, what's your motivation? You know, you just want to be seen with with something that AI mostly did for you or or yeah, or do you want to wrestle with some stuff? That matters to you. So.

That's something that occurred to me, like.

People are literally going to outsource a lot of things that.

Tommy Zee (13:54.508)

are actually taking them out of their calling and their vocation.

like a writer, let's say, you and the line is going to move so slowly. Right. It's like, it'll just organize the text for me to like, I'm under a deadline. This is good. This stuff is really good. You know what I mean? And it's like the line moves slowly until one day your AI is going to say, well, Brian, I have perfectly now assimilated all of your inputs.

The quality of your inputs has been degrading over the past three weeks, meaning I no longer need you.

Like, it started with me needing you. Now that I've assimilated your inputs, the quality of your ideas is just degrading. You have nothing to offer me, in other words. So I'm just gonna be Brian Funk from now, if you don't mind. And you, I'm not sure what you're gonna do, but you can't use the name Brian Funk anymore.

Brian Funk (14:59.913)

Well, in a way, I've stopped being Brian Funk. I've given it up to the machine to help tell me what to do next, like you said. So, you know, yeah, not me anyway. So let the machine do it. Let it figure it out for you. Yeah, relying on it a lot can can do that to you. But there is a.

There's a joy in figuring it out, you know? And I think also in this rush to get stuff out, and yeah, it does seem like some people are superhuman. They're getting, like you said, four emails a week and videos and all that. It can make you feel like, well, what am I doing? But I think you can also saturate the system a little bit too, where things are no longer interesting. For me, this happened with like Marvel movies.

When I was younger, when they were first like coming out, it was really exciting. made a Spider-Man movie and it's actually good and now there's a new Batman. And after a while, was like, can't, what X-Men are we up to now? What Avengers is this? And I was just unable to keep up with it and it felt like it doesn't matter anyway.

And there are other things that take more time. And when it happens, you're like, it's finally here. Awesome. One of my favorite podcasts is Hardcore History, Dan Carlin. He's just a great storyteller. And he tells history like a story. And it's fascinating. And you realize these are people, human drama. And he draws parallels to present day. But it takes him four or five months to get an episode out.

Tommy Zee (16:43.149)

Right. Which is scary, right? Yeah. But imagine like the fortitude required for you to lock yourself away to work on something for four months as a content creator. You're like, I don't exist for the next four months. How am I going to feed the family if I'm not actually doing? But the paradox is.

Brian Funk (16:44.307)

But when it comes out, it's like, yes. Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:56.521)

Yeah.

Tommy Zee (17:07.287)

If you're at this velocity and this frequency, it's probably not masterful.

So that's the thing. it's like, how are you going to feed your family if you keep going at this velocity and frequency? You're actually diluting yourself, right? Because we can't beat AI at efficiency or volume. We just can't. So the only thing you can do is like be so good like Dan. That's yeah. Good luck. Right. And then the other thing is your personality, which I think we're going to get to a point.

Brian Funk (17:15.453)

Yeah, that's second, right? Yeah.

Tommy Zee (17:42.967)

where I personally, I'm not going to trust anything that isn't just AI. That is just AI. Like the moment I get a sense of that, like I smell it, I'll be like, if someone didn't take the trouble to write it, why should I take the trouble to read it?

Brian Funk (18:00.52)

Yeah. Just send me the prompt. Tell me the prompt. Cordial email declining your offer. Okay. Thank you. That's so much better than the three paragraphs of slop.

Tommy Zee (18:01.197)

Right. And that's not my quote. Just send me the prompt. Yeah, exactly. So I think, yeah. Exactly. But, you know, like these kinds of podcasts like yours, I mean, for instance,

Tommy Zee (18:20.619)

It's just real.

It may not be like polished, high paced, whatever, right? Perfectly optimized. But actually, you know, we went through this phase of highly polished, optimized content and people literally couldn't stand it after a while. You just get nauseous with these edits, with this all this stuff, right? Whereas the three hour podcast still stands strong.

The great conversation between two people. I mean, you could listen to that forever, right? Walking around the house with your tea, whatever. I do this all the time.

So I think that moves us closer to our humanity and I'm glad to see that it's a kind of like natural selection.

It's a natural selection because because like the stuff spikes for a while the fancy Polish stuff spikes. But ultimately people I think not everyone of course but we try to surround ourselves with what is human and real and authentic. I heard an interesting quote the other day or stat from the guy Ohan Ohan Ohanian I think his last name the guy who started read it.

Tommy Zee (19:48.995)

He said he called the internet dead. He said like 51 % of the traffic is now bots.

Tommy Zee (19:58.803)

And he said it's time for a new internet. So that could be an exciting development coming up soon. Where the social media platforms are redefined, maybe the new one shows up, maybe like a new kind of internet shows up where you can just verify the fact that you're dwelling in a place of realness and not just surrounded by code.

Brian Funk (20:26.334)

Yeah, maybe the authentic stuff will shine through when there's just a sea of junk coming your way every once in a while, that real stuff. I like that about podcasts to hear people thinking through things in real time and interacting with each other and reacting. I think that's...

Tommy Zee (20:46.191)

out loud.

Brian Funk (20:50.75)

It's kind of musical really in a lot of ways when you play with another person how you interact and it's not just two people coming together it's every single choice is two people coming together so it just really multiplies.

where the thing you did made me do something that I wouldn't normally do, which is now gonna make you do something you wouldn't normally do. So the whole time we're at the edge of our ability and comfort zones and all of that in a much different way.

Tommy Zee (21:24.175)

Tell me about this book that you told me about before we started recording, because I think that's where the conversation is naturally going next, which is like, what was it called?

Brian Funk (21:35.935)

Okay. All right. I'll tell you first the one that I kind of don't feel like talking about because we're going to go down a...

It'll just get bad. It's called If Anyone Bills It, Everyone Dies. And it's about general AI, general, you know, all that like kind of super intelligent AI. And I think you can guess the overall outcome. And I'm sure the authors would just be laughing at us talking about art. It's like, yeah, you're worried about art. OK, well, you can worry about that for like a minute and then the real problems will come. The book that I'm finding much

more inspiring is why greatness can't be planned.

Tommy Zee (22:20.015)

So that's the one I wanted to hear about. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (22:22.268)

Okay, good. I think it's a more uplifting conversation.

Tommy Zee (22:26.671)

But the reason why I thought we were going that way is because we were saying, you said how in a conversation, a real conversation, it's a creative process, meaning like, I don't know what's going to happen next. I don't know where you're going to redirect what you're going to say. And so we're constantly in this creative tension where we're just trying to respond in the best way possible to wherever it's going.

And it made me think of that book title that you mentioned, which is like planning a podcast, every question and like having it systematic versus just these kind of conversations where you're like, let's talk and let's see where it goes.

Brian Funk (23:10.248)

Well, you know, I haven't really thought about it in terms of the podcast, but it's a perfect example. So the idea to sum up the book quickly is when you have a specific objective, you are going to ultimately limit yourself.

You're at best, you're going to get there, right? Cause you're going to make choices that'll get you there. But when you pursue instead, novelty and interest and whatever fascinates you, you wind up taking a path. And then the next step beyond that path is illuminated. And then from that next step, you can see the next step and you can't tell where the path is going to go. You don't know where it's going to go.

but it will go someplace interesting. And if you think about it musically, if I need to write a hip hop song, we have kind of the template there and you know, best thing you're gonna make most likely just another hip hop song. But when you're trying to find what's interesting or what if we did this, I never thought about that. And then now that you're here, we can do this. I didn't realize that till just now.

So much of creating and writing, think, is reacting to the last thing that happened. Just like in a conversation, it's reaction to what you said. If we have the questions all planned out in this conversation, you might start going down an interesting path. be like, okay, so I've read in your bio that it said blah, blah. And now we're just back on this track. We've lost that potentially really interesting detour. And that's...

Tommy Zee (24:52.495)

It's like the mainstream media interview. Like, they're so packaged, so crisp, and so like, get that 60 second.

Brian Funk (24:55.983)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (24:59.983)

And maybe it needs to be because we have seven minutes on the talk show to have the discussion or two minutes or whatever it is. So we got to get to it. And that is definitely the risk of the way I do this podcast, which is a little more just conversational. I have points and questions and sometimes we talk about things we want to get to, but that could also mean we've run out of.

Tommy Zee (25:04.899)

Right. Right. Right.

Brian Funk (25:27.853)

spaces to go, could hit dead ends, we could run out of... That's where my backup questions come in and a little research helps, but if it was just questions, questions, questions, probably a lot of them I'd already know the answer to because they've been asked and answered before. And I guess it would, it might be a standard decent interview.

but it won't ever be surprising really or even for the person that I'm speaking with for you. It would just be you recounting things you've already kind of been over before.

Tommy Zee (26:12.729)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I am really enthusiastic about conversations and where they could possibly go. And that comes from not knowing where they might end up. So that curiosity factor is very important. Just like being a good musician, listening is also very important. You have everything pre-scripted, you don't really need to listen. So essentially you're just...

just saying scripted stuff.

Tommy Zee (26:49.007)

I'm huge on this concept of aliveness now, meaning like. How can you bring life into something? And that is like literally the opposite of a script. I'm not against scripts because I think like if you're a professional. Some of the people that I follow that are great public speakers. That may be really good on their feet as far as communicators, I've realized that they prepare.

like obsessively, they will literally like write the thing and then the best will rip up the paper and literally walk out on stage once they have written it out. So I think it's that kind of thing, which is like. We're not going to have total chaos. But I'm going to be confident enough as someone who does this fairly regularly, that if it's interesting, we go with it.

And if shit happens, we go back to the playlist. Right. It's like, you know, that story was a little Richard on David Letterman or one of these shows. Yeah, it was David Letterman because who was his musical director? Do you remember Paul?

Brian Funk (28:10.843)

Yeah, Paul,

Yes, I know the piano player. Yeah, Paul Schaeffer. Paul Schaeffer, think.

Tommy Zee (28:15.407)

Paul something. Yeah, with Paul Schaeffer. That's right. So Paul Schaeffer, have you ever heard this anecdote where Paul Schaeffer talked? I think it was Little Richard. I don't know who it was. Maybe it was someone else. I don't know. But he was appearing on the show. And of course, Paul Schaeffer, being the musical director, was being asked to coordinate the whole thing. Right. And so he was emailing like and I don't know if it was Little Richard. So correct me if I'm wrong.

It doesn't matter who it was. It was a legendary musician. And Paul Schaeffer being the kind of like really well organized, everything buttoned up guy that he is, pro, consummate pro, was like basic. There's like getting in touch with him like weeks ahead. He's like, so can you tell me what we're going to do? No response, no response, no response. Like literally no response up until the day of the taping of the show.

Brian Funk (28:58.535)

we need to perform on TV.

Tommy Zee (29:15.951)

And the story went something like Little Richard, if it was Little Richard. Just kind of put his hand on Paul. Like in a kind of like caring way, and he said, it's just more exciting this way, man. You know, it was something to that effect. But I really love that story because it just shows you. When you reach the level of mastery.

what you're looking for at that level. You're not trying to ruin the show. You're not trying to sabotage the show. You're not trying to bring it down. But you know that the likelihood of producing a miracle or a magical moment is much reduced if we script everything. Where if you put two people on stage like Paul Schaefer and Little Richard, give yourself some leeway for a miracle.

Allow room for the unexpected. Of course, easy to say, right?

Tommy Zee (30:23.597)

I've never been on David Letterman. And if I was...

probably prepare the hell out of it. you know, but it just it just shows you like, for instance, Norm MacDonald appearing on David Letterman for the last time and how he couldn't get through his lines. He was tearing up. You know, then that's a moment. That's a moment, you know, and then you learn the back story of how Letterman was a big supporter and this and that. And you realize, well, these are the moments.

Brian Funk (30:34.876)

you

Tommy Zee (31:00.515)

That's what you want. That's you want. Like human beings interacting and then having a moment and you experiencing it and going, that was not scripted. Because if we tried with our best fricking attempts, with our best selves to script this thing, it would never come out the way this has.

You know?

Brian Funk (31:28.988)

So here's a paradox to what we've been saying before we were saying about flinging out content rapidly and it's not as thoughtful and genuine. For me musically, as of late especially, I've been really embracing working as fast as I can and getting through things as fast as I can.

so that I capture whatever it is that's happening when something is first happening. Because there is a special moment there when you first come up with something that you're really excited about. You're in a certain place, it's a certain time of day, of year, your mood and everything came together for that to happen in the moment.

And the next time you come back to it, if you're still working on it, you're kind of trying to return to something that you can almost never get back to. You're, you can never go in the same river again because the river's changing and so are you. So.

Tommy Zee (32:33.199)

So give me an example of what that looks like in practice.

Brian Funk (32:39.59)

That looks like trying to get as much of an idea finished as fast as possible.

Tommy Zee (32:48.473)

So do you set a clock, for instance, like, let's say, is it like you feel inspiration, you're like, I have an idea and then you run to the studio and then you're like, I just want to crystallize this idea in sound. Or is it like I'm jamming in a studio, something interesting is happening. I'm not going to leave until I actually, like. Accelerate until I feel like like, what does it look like?

What does progress look like and what does it mean to... What point is a point of completion for you?

Brian Funk (33:25.82)

All right, well, the first part, it's pretty rare that I get struck with lightning and I got to run to the studio and make something, right? Occasionally, sometimes I hear a song and I'm like, man, I want to make a song like that. But usually when that happens, I can't. I'm driving to work. I'm out of the house. It's the middle of the night or whatever it is. There's some reason why life won't let you get to it at that moment.

It usually happens when I start. This is probably why starting is so scary most of the time. Cause I don't really know exactly where I'm going yet, but once I start tinkering and moving around and putting things together, if something starts to happen, it's kind of like, I don't know, fishing where we've got to reel this guy in or he's going to get off the line. And

Tommy Zee (34:21.071)

Yeah, so I want to ask you, like, what does it look like exactly? Meaning, are you afraid that you're going to get stuck in a loop and then it'll just kind of fizzle out? So does it then mean that you're basically going, OK, I have this strong idea before I get stuck and hypnotized by the loop, which doesn't go anywhere, I'm going to immediately force myself like, you know what I mean? I'm trying to see what the tangible steps are.

Brian Funk (34:44.656)

Yeah, trying to get it together as fast as possible. Maybe it's cement, right? It's wet cement. You know, and I got to place it as best I can. Cause otherwise I kind of get stuck and then I can't.

Tommy Zee (34:51.513)

Okay.

Tommy Zee (34:58.319)

before it dries.

Brian Funk (35:08.666)

quite figure out the way, how am I going to sing that first part? Because I got a few ideas and... But if I'm just like, I'm writing these words and I know I can change the words if I need to, if I need to alter them a little, but having something down and getting that idea, and it's just so much easier to work with the cement when it's wet than it is to...

Tommy Zee (35:35.567)

So does it mean for instance like for me that would mean and this is what I often do is it is a paradox though because we just spoke about how you plant can't plan great things but.

It gives me a sense of direction when I see the song done already as far as structure. Right. think we probably touched on this in the previous podcast because this is what I teach my students. That whole chalk watercolors oil method. Where you literally will.

The chalk is like your structure. You literally put down MIDI clips, empty MIDI clips in different colors to say, okay, so I roughly imagine this thing will have an intro. It'll probably have a buildup. It'll have a drop. Maybe it kind of redirects. And then we'll just fizzle out. So then I'm like, once I have these MIDI clips in, I'm like, okay, the song is done. I just have to fill it in.

But then you don't get stuck in a loop because you're literally like, okay, now I'm working on the intro. Okay, now I'm working on the drop. Okay, now, you know. The challenge I have with that is it's so nice that I drew these many clips and that's how I imagined the song going, but it almost never goes that way, which is fine. But that is my attempt to get out of the loop. That's why I was asking you like, what is the...

What does it look like for you in reality to try to get something out as quickly as possible?

Brian Funk (37:15.994)

Well, my Ableton Live workflow is going to be session view, getting those ideas together, loops, sections, and all of that kind of stuff, right?

But if I stay there too long, that's all they ever are. These kind of ideas that could be anything. It's getting them into the arrangement view. And now we're in the linear, right? Where we can press play and hear the beginning to the end, as opposed to session view, which is nonlinear and you can just kind of be anywhere. There's no beginning, end or middle. So getting there quick and early is definitely very important because I...

Tommy Zee (37:40.131)

Right away. Yeah.

Tommy Zee (37:49.635)

Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy Zee (37:57.593)

same session.

Brian Funk (37:59.548)

I think ideally, Ideally.

Tommy Zee (38:02.095)

Yeah, I'm totally with you. Before you close down the session, go to Arrangement View with all the stuff. You don't even have to arrange it. Just bring it.

Brian Funk (38:11.567)

Yeah, and I like to do that too because it gives me something I can listen to. I can kind of keep working on it. Even if I'm in the car going to work, I can be listening. And a lot of times I'll get ideas and have a little notepad next to me that I sketch down lyrics or...

Tommy Zee (38:28.975)

You know you can just dictate a voice note to Claude for it to arrange your song. By the time you're home, it'll be done.

Brian Funk (38:38.075)

You don't have to actually do this. This is what I say to people when they watch a baseball game or a football game, they give you the answers after it's over. You don't even have to watch the game. just look in the paper or go online. Totally missing the point.

Tommy Zee (38:39.279)

You don't need to actually do the work.

Tommy Zee (38:54.817)

I love that. I love the cement analogy. I love the cement analogy and I love this. Yeah, you know, they gave you the scores at the end. I like that a lot. I wanted to ask you something about this idea of like finishing songs and releasing them. Where do you stand on that these days? You're talking to someone who's been basically.

making music because I'm commissioned by someone to create it. I have a deadline, I have direction, and like I don't have any options. I gotta deliver the music by Friday and then I get paid and then Bob's your uncle. But when it comes to releasing my own music, which I would very much like, I get this existential despair happening, which is like, what? You're gonna release a seven minute ambient track? What's so special about that?

Like what does the world need another seven minute ambient track? And I'm like, stop. These voices are terrible. Stop it. I just want to. Yeah, I just want to publish an ambient track. What is wrong with that? This whole internal dialogue, you have this dialogue like what is how do you. Are you releasing music?

How do you negotiate that conversation in your mind? Like, why are we doing this even? What's the point? You're not going to make money from it, probably.

Brian Funk (40:24.815)

Yeah, probably not. And maybe even no one will even listen to it. Right? So if you're not...

Tommy Zee (40:29.871)

So why bother?

Brian Funk (40:36.079)

doing your own music for a while and then you decide you're working on something that's a seven minute ambient track, you're probably now thinking, this is the thing that represents Tommy Z musically and it's finally coming out and I haven't had anything and it's a big deal and it's never going to encapsulate all those aspects of who you are.

And no piece of music could, that would make any sense anyway, because you're not one dimensional, you're not one style, you're not one mood, you're not one anything. So I think that can be very crippling. What should I do? I don't know, because I got to really make my statement as an artist.

The way around it for me has been pretty much the same thing of working fast, where I'm making, trying to make stuff and finish it just so I can leave behind a body of work. And the body of work can speak to who I am. And I don't even know who that is yet, because I'm still figuring that out myself anyway. Over time, you can start to zoom out on the picture. But if tonight I'm making an ambient track,

And that's where I'm at. That's where I'm at. And next week I might be trying to make a dance floor move or playing acoustic guitar and singing or playing with my band. It's more a matter of just leaving the diary entries, thinking more like that. And it's more a big collage.

Tommy Zee (42:07.097)

That's what it is. Yeah. I've I've

I've gotten, I think, a different perspective on what it means to create art recently. I'm a very conceptual person and I guess because I've had to deliver conceptually driven music to big brands and their campaigns for so long. It's like there is always this need to have a concept which drives the creation.

It's like, what is the idea behind this? And of course, the campaign idea already suggests what the music is going to be like. And then, you know, sometimes the actual conceptual idea behind a track becomes a part of the campaign. Like if when you do these ASMR things or, we're going to make a song out of beer bottles or whatever.

But in this chapter of my life where I'm really trying to treat music like an expression of something deeper, which I've always...

I've always seen music as that very special language. But I always had this compulsion to like, if I don't have a concept, there's no point in working on the track. And it does help sometimes to have a concept to finish things, or at least to give yourself like a creative format. Just as a fun exercise, a creative exercise. Like I'm going to make a track out of my cheapest scents. And that's just to close down the world.

Tommy Zee (43:46.659)

the sandbox so that you don't get lost in all the possibilities. But the perspective that I recently got out of after reading a few books and just having this realization is that

Tommy Zee (44:03.811)

The things that we consider masterpieces, the things that truly, truly are a higher level of art, however you define that.

are ones where even the artist was swept up in something trying to communicate itself through that person at the time. So I've always found it very strange when an artist cannot explain their work.

And it's always a relief when they go, well, this symbolizes the existential angst of man. You see the color here, you see this shape here, you're like, OK. But I've noticed, like, the artists that I admire were never wanting to answer those questions. It was more like turned around, like, what does it mean to you? You know? And so I want to experiment now.

with allowing myself not to have direction.

Tommy Zee (45:06.543)

And it's never going to be like, because I don't have direction, then what I'm going to produce is meaningless. And the reason for that is, is because we have a certain story, we have soul, we have certain sensibilities, there's a certain frequency, there's a certain thing happening with us at all times.

And then when you put yourself in this space and you touch a knob.

At this particular moment in time, you want to twist the knob left because you feel what's happening and you're like, yes, this is where I want to go right now. I want to go left. I want to go like filtered or whatever. I want to go murky. I want to go cloudy right now.

And that's very interesting, right? Because it's like, regardless of what your mind thinks or what it intends to do, you're going murky.

And I just find it very interesting to allow if the murkiness wants to come out, let it come out. Like just, you know, the moment the mind starts interfering, I find is when you start.

Tommy Zee (46:31.971)

really limiting the possibilities. And of course your mind is going to convince you that, right? It's like unnecessary, man. What are you trying to do here, right? I'm trying to help you here. I'm trying to package this thing. I'm trying to delineate it. Yeah, but then it's like, you know, some of the greatest pieces of art would never come out if that was the case. Because they weren't easily packaged.

It's like a three hour track that doesn't go anywhere. Or contact microphones attached to the bells in the church in Paris. The Notre Dame. Yeah. The artists attach contact mics to the bells and they picked up the resonances coming from the city that are vibrating these bells at imperceptible levels.

Brian Funk (47:16.248)

Notre Dame. Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:26.318)

Hmm. just... You alright? Cool.

Tommy Zee (47:30.169)

But when you write so so it's things like that, it's like, you know, it's like, wow, that is interesting. Anyway, I just went on this long monologue, but maybe you can. Hit the ball back from your end of the court and comment on what you're hearing here.

Brian Funk (47:43.546)

Yeah, all right.

Brian Funk (47:48.993)

I enjoy making stuff that is very concrete and direct. And when I have an idea that's clear and putting that together, this is the expression of something specific. And if you ask me, yes, this means that, and that's a reference to this and blah, blah, blah. It's also kind of fun to play with things, stick things together, put words together, play with the sounds of the words and

the kind of double meanings they might have or mess up the grammar of it even because it fits rhythmically better than maybe the proper way to say something. I think...

Tommy Zee (48:30.649)

You'd have an appreciation for that as a literature teacher.

Brian Funk (48:34.392)

Yeah, it's kind of fun to ssss-

Tommy Zee (48:35.823)

like finnigan's wake and

Brian Funk (48:38.628)

Well, even Shakespeare did it a lot. So, and you know, and some of the things he did it with became things we say now still hundreds of years later. sometimes you have to twist things around to make it fit in with everything else. But I think it's okay to not really have the complete picture of what it means and let the

Tommy Zee (48:40.771)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (49:07.906)

interpretation happen on the other end. Because it's not just for the listener either. Because when you hear my song that might've been a little loose around the edges as far as the picture of the story or the meaning, I can hear that song a year later and get something different than I did when I made it. And then it keeps changing and evolving and you get these different ways of looking at stuff that can be kind of fun too.

And maybe that plays into this idea of the, making that body of work, dropping things on the ground. mean, you don't always have, you haven't always made sense of everything in your life, you know? And sometimes you're conflicted and sometimes you're unsure. So I think it's okay to have that happen in what you're doing with your music or your art, because that's a reflection.

Tommy Zee (50:00.207)

We've heard it time and time again that I've only made sense of my life looking backwards. Like Steve Jobs said that, George McDonald, who was the mentor of C.S. Lewis in his journals, wrote something like that, which is like, it's nearly impossible to know what the meaning of your life is looking forward.

But when you look back, you notice the narrative, you see the narrative. So that's what's.

Brian Funk (50:32.377)

You have to leave things behind to do that though. If you're holding it in all the time and you're resisting because it's not ready or it's not exactly what I wanted to say or it's not exactly how I felt, then you don't get that perspective because you don't leave any of those diary entries or artifacts behind.

Tommy Zee (50:55.065)

Yeah, yeah. This is very interesting to me. I just discovered this guy. I don't know how you pronounce his name.

Is he Nigerian? He released, he was very prolific recently. He does a lot of like...

found sounds recorded wherever he is in Africa. can't remember where he is in Africa. I think he's also a relative or a son of a famous musician. But I really literally discovered him, like in the last two days. I've just been listening to his work. But I went on to his website. His name is he goes by K.M.R.U. Kamaru or something.

Brian Funk (51:41.855)

Yeah, I think Ableton just did a piece on him recently.

Tommy Zee (51:45.283)

Yes, I did read actually that on the Ableton website. I read an interview with him. Yeah.

Brian Funk (51:51.363)

KMRU, yeah, on the art of sharing music. Yeah, put that in the show notes.

Tommy Zee (51:55.157)

Exactly. Yeah. It's interesting because I went onto his website and I was like, this is the way you do it. His website is just literally a collection of everything he's doing, the writings, the albums, like whatever he does, he just releases it. And he's like, when I got signed to labels, I encountered the challenge of like, why aren't we releasing that yet? because the calendar says we're going to do it in two months. There's a whole process here. Relax. And he's like, what? Let's just get it out there.

He's like, when I finish a piece of music, I want it immediately to go out into the world. Right. And I thought that was very refreshing and just going on his website and just seeing that everything he's doing coalesces into this body of work on his website. And also, I'm very inspired by that, by what you're doing, Ryan, because this podcast, you've been doing it for what, like 45 years now?

Brian Funk (52:52.749)

Yeah, pretty much. 2017.

Tommy Zee (52:53.807)

45 years before There you go You know, but I remember you and I think I mentioned this every time I'm on your show like Just seeing you like when the internet was still slow and you were already on there like with your sunglasses doing stuff Right But you just keep going you just keep doing your thing, you know

And I have this tendency to like.

I'm looking for the next big thing.

You know what mean? If I'm going to attach an idea, it's got to be big. It's got to do that. And then you just look at the last five years and you go, OK, so let me see your body of work. Like there's all these unfinished pieces that are aiming to hit a home run instead of just like.

Tommy Zee (53:50.863)

Just do something and then ship it and then move on to the next thing that compels you or that excites you.

Brian Funk (53:57.368)

Well, how often have you heard artists talk about their hit song, the breakout song, and they were like, we had no idea it was going to be that one. yeah, we thought it was the other one. We didn't. No one thought this record was going to be a hit.

Tommy Zee (54:10.607)

It's very rare.

Brian Funk (54:12.761)

So even when people are changing the world and making their masterpiece and their huge, you know, genre shifting releases, most of the time they don't even know what's happening themselves. So if you're waiting to attach yourself to like the next big thing, the great movement, like you probably won't even see it coming. It's not going to be great until it happens.

Tommy Zee (54:35.395)

No, that's right.

Tommy Zee (54:39.961)

How do you deal with the fact that it seems to me like music is something we got used to?

Like once upon a time it was exciting, then it got electric, then it got like, it was analog, then it got electric, then it got digital, then it got interesting, blah blah blah blah blah. It's 2025. We've had incredible advances in technology. Everyone has access to killer technology now. Like every DAW is just doing crazy stuff now. STEM separation, this, that. And...

Brian Funk (54:50.137)

You

Tommy Zee (55:18.851)

I'm just like, are we numb already?

I'm almost looking for the kind of music that has nothing to do with that. Like nothing to do with technology. In a weird way, I'm looking for something that will haunt me. Like something that will maybe go against the pattern. Like something that will be a genuine world that I'm invited into. Where you're like, whoa, this is like, I can't...

I can't even analyze it because it's like, you know what I mean? It hits you on a deep level where your mind is not even trying to figure it out. I don't know if there's a question in there, but I suppose that would be the kind of stuff that I would aspire to make. And again, I may be sabotaging myself right out of the gate.

But I'm just like, well, who cares about a seven minute ambient track with an Omnisphere drone put through some filters? Like, who cares about that? Are we past that? Have we gotten used to that? Like, doesn't it need another ingredient or do we need a next step here in the evolution to make it more interesting, to make it, you know, how do you see that?

Brian Funk (56:30.754)

There's definitely a temptation because you got the tools, right? So let's take that seven minute Omnisphere patch and let's add something. Let's put some effects. We got this new plugin glitching and we can play this and that and add.

Sometimes it's just nice to hear a single thing on its own. And you know, if you have just that single Omnisphere patch, you can really listen to it and pay attention to the details. you know, they just announced like Omnisphere 3 and it's insane, right? But every time you add an element to your mix, that Omnisphere patch gets smaller and smaller and smaller and that initial idea becomes part of the other things together.

Tommy Zee (57:06.105)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (57:20.426)

It, it changes it or, and it might be losing something that you're really enjoying about that patch. Just because you're just cause we can, we can do that stuff. yeah, I mean, I love all the technology and I'm really excited about it, but on the other hand of, or the other side of that coin lately, I'm probably the next release I put out.

is going to be the complete opposite of all that, just acoustic guitar and voice. And in fact, the songs that I've got so far, think it was a five or six, all the recordings I have are the day I was writing it. So the recording I have is really like the first time I'm hearing it too. It's like, okay, I've kind of, I've been working it together now. Let me try to record it and put it all together.

Tommy Zee (58:11.727)

Okay, interesting.

Brian Funk (58:18.656)

It's like single performance, first time I'm hearing it, first time I'm going through it too. And you know, there's definitely little flubs here and there, but there's something about that that you just, you can't capture that again. So I'm playing with that. Yeah.

Tommy Zee (58:38.893)

No, and I think that's exactly where I'm going with this. Yeah, which is like in the age of like everything being perfect, the flub is the thing where I recognize the authentic moment. Meaning like I can actually put myself in the room with you and I can hear that it was probably afternoon that you probably scraped the string and it's...

Yeah, it's not ideal, but like. I don't know, man, I don't ever see how the best songs were ever like perfect, whatever that means. Reading the book by Bresson, the famous French director who is basically commenting about all the films that he's ever made. I'll give you the book title, I don't remember what it is now, but I have it at home.

But he said that some of the greatest moments in his films happened because of accidents. So what he was literally saying was that...

Tommy Zee (59:48.175)

He created conditions that were almost disastrous as far as like if you were to plan a set and a shot, you wouldn't do things the way he did it. He hired like non-professional actors, for instance. He basically was creating a combustive mix that according to like professionals would probably lead to a disaster. And of course, many other people thought his films were weird or whatever, but somehow they remain.

masterpieces, according to certain film critics, and they certainly are still revered by people who study that genre. But his essential theory and philosophy was like, I'm trying to invite the unknown into the process. And so very often when he looked at what he shot, he was like, how did that get in there? And then it becomes the thing.

completely not planned, completely not even desired, to be honest, in that shot. But it came in and it added a dimension which now as a whole, like it takes this thing to a completely different level. That's very fascinating, right? To allow yourself to create those conditions for the flubs.

Brian Funk (01:01:10.552)

There are a lot of things in recordings I've done in the past where sounds or noises got in there that weren't supposed to be in there, but when I hear them now, they pull me into that moment. I remember that day because that was the day that happened. I like that stuff a lot. And now we can make like.

It used to be a huge feat to create these perfect masterpieces that were ironed out and every detail constructed and that in itself was really impressive. And it still is, of course, and it's hard to do even with all the tools we have.

But maybe a part of me is also just aware that this thing came out so good because somebody was really good at the software. Someone was really good at how the program works. I don't want to take away from that because I have a lot of deep respect for that too. But I'm a little more...

Tommy Zee (01:02:03.545)

Yeah, it's masking. Right, right.

Brian Funk (01:02:20.033)

just drawn to the stuff that's a little more rough around the edges. I kind of always have been, I think, but...

Yeah, like it's, it's a moment you're capturing it instead of something that's been crafted, which again has its place. I'm not saying anything negative. I'm just a little more interested in those things at the moment that were that only happened because we got together that day and we did it in this way and we ran out of that and this thing was broken and we did it anyway. That's fun.

Tommy Zee (01:02:43.183)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy Zee (01:02:56.099)

Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to ask, are you actually releasing music?

And how do you do that?

Brian Funk (01:03:05.655)

without much fanfare really, mostly just posted up. Yeah, Distro Kid, usually SoundCloud. Anything I put on like the streaming services is maybe a little more purposeful and then SoundCloud is, that gets more experimental, yeah. And I wanna be a little more active with all of that, you know.

Tommy Zee (01:03:09.401)

But what do you put it on your website? Like, do you put it through distribution platforms? Okay. Okay.

Tommy Zee (01:03:24.547)

your experimentation kind of R &D thing. Okay, gotcha.

Brian Funk (01:03:36.404)

I have my own personal diary of all the music I make and stuff, but I would like to be a little more just, here it is, this is what I got, this is what I got, this is what I got. And I know probably from a marketing perspective, it's not a great idea to have everything out there put together. But like you said, I'm not...

Tommy Zee (01:03:48.505)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:04.533)

ever going to make money off of this in any reality I live in. It's not about that and I don't need it to be. I do have that luxury. I have my teaching job, so that frees me up a lot.

Tommy Zee (01:04:08.463)

It's not about that.

Tommy Zee (01:04:13.528)

Actually, yeah.

Tommy Zee (01:04:22.671)

That gives you a lot of creative freedom, right? Because you're not concerned with the marketplace.

Brian Funk (01:04:27.859)

It gives me that luxury in a lot of ways. It changes your relationship. I don't know what's better or worse, but I guess I figure if I'm in this position, I might as well use it instead of, yeah, like kind of wishing I had it another way.

Tommy Zee (01:04:40.185)

Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy Zee (01:04:47.181)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:50.647)

Because again, that creates the body of work. And there's a lot of artists I love that, I don't love everything they do, but it's really fun to go through their catalog and explore, wow, like a Bob Dylan kind of character where they're just Neil Young, they're just always doing stuff and you can kind of dive into any moment of where they were.

And, I just love them. So it almost doesn't even matter if I love the music. I'm just, I love what he does. So.

Tommy Zee (01:05:24.921)

Well, here is the interesting thing that I'm fascinated by right now.

which is the idea that.

at a time when every art form has been.

digitized, turned into zeros and ones and therefore duplicable, copyable, referenced by algorithms, whatever, but essentially automated, compounded with the fact that we have gotten used to it by having processed it already. So in a way we're numb, like it takes something different to excite us or to even notice it.

The idea that I'm fascinated by now is like the only thing that becomes.

Tommy Zee (01:06:22.957)

truly the highest form of art that is alive.

is human life, is the human. Now, that has always been true. So what you just said about like, I just like what Bob Dylan's doing. So I'm always curious. I don't like everything he's done, but I'm always going to be paying attention. Because you sense that out of this body, mind and soul entity that is named Bob Zimmerman, Dylan.

There's going to be a synthesis that when it's released, you're not always going to like it, but you're certainly going to pay attention because you appreciate the fact that this human is processing things in a very special way, seeing reality in a very special way and then spitting it back out after synthesis in a way that only he can.

So, you know, Nadia Blanchet, who was the mentor to Quincy Jones, Aaron Copeland, all these other people, she always reiterated this, which is like, I'm looking for the human being in the musician. Everything else is secondary, your piano skill, your this, that, it all comes out from the center, from the kind of human being that you are.

So this is the idea that I'm hugely fascinated by, which is like, especially when we speak about AI, when we speak about the influence of technology on us, does it actually create the conditions for you to find out who are you?

Tommy Zee (01:08:12.013)

with deep introspection. What is my place in time and space and this particular time and history, location? What am I surrounded by the people, the projects, the opportunities? What do I feel strongly about? What is my sensibility? And then to ask certain questions worth asking and then the quality of your answers is really going to be. As interesting as the kind of person that you are.

Like, so that's my fascination right now, the life itself as an art form. Like, what kind of life are you living? And I'm not talking about, like, the Instagram life. I'm talking about maybe it's the most boring, simple life you've ever heard of.

And I guarantee you that Bob Dylan is probably living that life. Like, even though it's exciting on the outside, like a lot of these poets and artists that I resonate with personally, it's the most boring lives they're living. And you realize that that actually is where they draw their inspiration from, because they cut off the influences, the noise, everything that we're fascinated by, which is like right here.

which is probably gonna glue our attention immediately.

It takes us away from. You know, that thing waiting to get out of us. Which unfortunately doesn't yell. Well, fortunately, it doesn't yell right, so it really needs seclusion, it really needs some alone time, it really needs simplification. And yeah, that's what I'm excited about right now as an idea, you know, after devoting so much of my life to like commercial appeal.

Tommy Zee (01:10:05.689)

to like, is it going to make money to like, you know, is it going to be up to par to the person paying me thousands for this score for this big brand campaign? I'm now really, really interested in a different idea, which is like. What does art mean today? You know, what is our place in it? How do we reconcile and negotiate the technological advances?

to help us become more human and more of artists and not less? Yeah, those are the questions that I find very fascinating right now.

Brian Funk (01:10:44.278)

probably where the art in art comes from, that humanity. Because you can, you know, there's craft to art. There's that whole aspect of getting good at your instrument or learning actually how to paint or dance or any of those things. But it's the life in there that...

gets mixed in, that's interesting. And you've probably seen now, there's AI artists out there and making songs. Rick Beato had a big moment a few months ago where he created that one like indie female singer and their song, know, people like, yeah, it's a good song, you know. Maybe even the type of music I would listen to.

But as soon as I hear that it's not a real person and it's just this thing that's put together, it just removes all interest for me. The most interesting part about that piece of music is the story of Rick Beato creating it. The human being showing up, prompting it. Yeah.

Tommy Zee (01:11:45.657)

Yeah.

Tommy Zee (01:11:54.605)

Right. You're still going to follow reg biato. Right.

Tommy Zee (01:12:01.145)

There's nothing to follow, there's no one to follow with an AI artist, literally. There's no one to follow.

Brian Funk (01:12:06.614)

If it's music that's on at the mall when I'm walking around, it might be pleasant enough. I might even say, this is cool sound or something. But I guess if either you get that smell that you mentioned, which I think is a good way to describe how we detect AI work, it's like a smell. It's intangible. It just, I don't care anymore for some reason.

You know, like when I was a teenager, I put on flannels and ripped jeans because I love grunge. love Nirvana. I love those bands. And there's no ripped jeans in the song. He's not singing like, put on your flannels, you wear your ripped jeans. It's the people when you get to find out who made this and where they came from. you're like, oh, that's they're cool. I like what they're doing. And that pulls you even deeper into the art.

Like you said, the whole life becomes the canvas in a way. It's what makes it interesting.

Tommy Zee (01:13:09.007)

That's I literally like that's my thing now, which I say like the highest form of art is life. You are the artist in residence. And this day is your canvas. Like, that's literally the three lines behind, you know, the kind of mentorship that I'm doing now, which is beyond making music for brands. But that's the idea that excites me, because ultimately.

in the age where everything is commoditized and digitized.

True life, like aliveness is going to be the thing that we're seeking that's going to energize us. And it always has been, by the way. It's just that there was a moment when when you plugged in the guitar to an amplifier and someone heard it for the first time, it took a while for us to get over that.

And then when analog got turned into digital, we got all excited by that. the iPhone came, we got all excited by that. But you can see the diminishing returns. Even with the most revolutionary technology, let's say, Chad GPT or language models. It always bursts the bubble and then we always come back to Bob Dylan. Who? Like, how would you rate his guitar playing or his singing?

Tommy Zee (01:14:35.949)

That's not exactly where he's making the difference, is it?

Brian Funk (01:14:36.011)

I would.

I know. And the funny thing is like, I think it is high, but it's high because of character. Like he's not winning American Idol. He's not winning the guitar Olympics or anything like that. know, but I mean, he's a great player though. mean, he's, he's

Tommy Zee (01:14:44.911)

But he dumps it down. Exactly.

Tommy Zee (01:14:57.881)

But I would even argue, that these people dumb it down. Some of these artists will dumb it down in a certain way. Like it's sometimes for noble thing, like to simplify their art. Sometimes it is a market consideration. It's like nobody is going to listen to a virtuoso thing. If you want to write a poem for an everyday human.

That's probably not the place where you display your guitar skills. I'm just saying, like, it doesn't seem like the right con-

Brian Funk (01:15:26.612)

Yeah, yeah, that could distance you from it. If you're going for that every person folk thing and you're shredding, does. Now you're not an everyday guy with a guitar. Yeah. I guess like I would consider him masterful in how he's deploying it, you know, for his purposes, like his voice.

Tommy Zee (01:15:36.539)

Look at me.

Brian Funk (01:15:54.902)

Like everyone, I think he's a great singer because, you know, when you listen to like blowing in the wind when he's like 20 or 21 years old, he sounds like he's been around the world, you know? yeah, there's a rasp in his voice that says, I've seen some stuff. Whether he has or not, it's in there.

Tommy Zee (01:16:08.749)

Yeah, it's a wisdom, like a sage kind of.

Tommy Zee (01:16:16.697)

journey man. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, what I meant about like, how would you rate his singing? I just meant like, from a technical proficiency perspective, you know, there's probably exactly, it's exactly not the point.

Brian Funk (01:16:33.333)

I hate even thinking about that because that's not the point to me. That fits me. It serves me well because I'm not technically good at any of it anyway. Yeah, of course it doesn't matter. There's so much craft and attention to detail that you can go in. Maybe that's an art too, but...

It's kind of not the point, you know, if you think if you bring singing and music back to its roots of bringing people together in communities, the tribe or whatever it is in the old caveman times. It wasn't about like how good you were. It was being part of that and sharing in it.

Tommy Zee (01:17:18.215)

But also like to speak to how do you get to that point of just embodying the kind of artistic expression that makes you just go, whoa, this is one of a kind. I can't even think about it because it goes right.

to the heart, like it's not a rational thing where you're analyzing it like, no, you can't. it's outside. it's like, how did the tribesmen who get their tribe into a trance? How does Bob Dylan, how does Neil Young, like whatever, we can go down the line. These one of a kind rare artists get to that point and.

Brian Funk (01:17:42.355)

Yeah, you can't even think about it. That's actually it. You can't think about it.

Tommy Zee (01:18:09.901)

I just think it's a natural result of who they are. You see, my whole point about like what you what we need to do if we have any shot at creating great art is to become great humans. And that's not great humans. I don't mean like by the standards of Instagram or because you got a Nobel Peace Prize or something. No, I just mean like you study humanity, which Bob Dylan has been doing.

Brian Funk (01:18:14.153)

honesty.

Brian Funk (01:18:30.247)

or...

Tommy Zee (01:18:40.761)

He's a philosopher, right? Like the greatest artists are trying to figure out what the heck is life all about, right? Just dissecting what is love, what is sadness, what is grief, what is an apple even, what is a fruit tree? Nick Drake. I don't know. The fruit tree is probably more than a fruit tree to Nick Drake. And he shows us that when you look at a goddamn tree, it's probably more than just a tree. And then you listen and you're like.

Holy shit, the tree. What is this tree? What is, you know, it's like just takes you down this new dimension of like, you can look at, you know, an avocado this way or fruit tree that way or whatever. So. It's not technical proficiency, although that's there because it's like thousands of hours, right, for Bob Dylan practicing his craft, just being inspired by.

the music that he came up with and probably studying that deeply to a point where it becomes like your natural language. I'm not thinking about what I'm saying now, just passionate about the idea. So I'm expressing it. Right. So I think it's the same for. For these guys, but like the huge emphasis for me is like. Focus on not just the technical proficiency, but like what is the thing that. Compells you in life.

what is naturally like drawing you toward it and like spend time with it, commune with it. And it could be the stupidest thing in the world, like a peanut. But are you telling me that we cannot create art around a peanut? Like, do know what I'm saying? Right. The peanuts, right. But you know what I'm saying, right? It's like. It's just new eyes, right? Like, like, I think it's.

Brian Funk (01:20:24.371)

The peanuts. Charles Schultz.

Yeah.

Tommy Zee (01:20:35.023)

Proust or pru or however you pronounce it. But it's like the journey consists not the journey of discovery consists not of like going somewhere, but seeing the world with new eyes. So not discovering new lands, but seeing the world with new eyes. So. Yeah, I mean, we're unpacking a lot of things here, but essentially like. I'm just excited about commonplace everyday life.

and ourselves as like just common human beings, not trying to be someone in particular or like not being kidnapped by the feet to try to be like someone else there. But instead, just like really paying attention to your life, to the things that arise within you as thoughts and ideas.

the things that resonate with you on the outside in your immediate environment, the people you're surrounded by, the mundane moments.

Tommy Zee (01:21:44.909)

in a grocery store, you know, like looking at cashier and just exchanging a kind word. Dude. It's all art, like it's all there. We just need to rediscover it again. Right. Yeah, I don't know if I'm. Expressing my fascination clearly, what I'm trying to say is like.

All this technological stuff, as exciting as it is, as much as I appreciate it in my life, because it allows me to do...

I don't think that's where the answer ultimately lies. Or like, that's not what's going to help us unlock our humanity. There's a greater risk that it will actually prevent us from discovering who we are, because that's a conversation that cannot be mediated by a calculator.

Brian Funk (01:22:48.126)

Well, if you're paying close enough attention, there are no mundane moments in the supermarket. are all kind of... Yeah, everything is fascinating when you look at it closely enough. The peanut is amazing. Comes in that shell to protect it. You know, the avocado, you can say the fruit tree.

Tommy Zee (01:23:06.157)

I don't appreciate it enough.

Brian Funk (01:23:12.36)

this thing that grows out of the ground that will feed us. And we have this relationship where I breathe out carbon dioxide, right? This carbon dioxide I breathe out and the tree breathes it in and gives oxygen. What? That's insane when you think about it. But maybe in that we've really hyped up all of this, you know.

Tommy Zee (01:23:12.559)

That's all.

Tommy Zee (01:23:23.407)

That's right, oxygen.

Brian Funk (01:23:36.518)

extraordinary lives, know, flying around the world in your private jet and whatever. That we kind of forget that.

Tommy Zee (01:23:41.529)

Yeah, right. Right.

that the people on this private jet are very often an antidepressants.

Brian Funk (01:23:50.537)

Well, just maybe, but even just sitting in your yard watching the squirrels collect their peanuts, it's pretty awesome.

Tommy Zee (01:24:03.599)

You ever heard that CK Lewis skit where he takes the remote away or turns off the TV while his kid is watching it? That's the TV, man. That's nowhere near as dangerous as this thing. But like he there's a skit that you can look up online where the kid just snaps. It's like a reaction, like on human. Right. It's like.

Brian Funk (01:24:19.73)

Hmm, just a phone, yeah.

Tommy Zee (01:24:31.321)

turning off the TV, it's like taking the phone away from someone. It's like they turn into like it's almost like an animal reaction, like, you know, what are you doing? And then he goes on this whole rant about like, you not see the sun rising? The friggin sun is rising. No, it's like not interesting, you know. And that I see as a great tragedy where these kids are actually now.

Brian Funk (01:24:49.522)

Yeah.

Tommy Zee (01:25:01.679)

seeing this thing as reality, as kind of like, this is just the way things are. Like, I get my life from this phone, my connections, my relationships, my information, everything. We were brought up differently. So we still remember that world. Boredom. Like, is that even the thing these days? Like, no. No, right, exactly. And isn't that...

Brian Funk (01:25:24.36)

No, you don't have to be bored. You might not be deeply engaged, but it's not boredom.

Tommy Zee (01:25:36.023)

Right. that isn't that where the beginning of

Tommy Zee (01:25:45.825)

our unique contribution begins, basically.

Brian Funk (01:25:51.753)

think it's a big part of it. You get bored enough to go out and try something. See what happens. When you don't have that, you're mildly pacified. You know, what's the point?

Brian Funk (01:26:16.052)

It's good to be bored.

Tommy Zee (01:26:18.445)

It's good to be bored. I think I'm ready to go to.

Brian Funk (01:26:20.212)

to leave that open space to be bored. But I do also think that if you're paying attention, like you're not going to be bored.

Tommy Zee (01:26:26.415)

I'm ready to go be bored.

Tommy Zee (01:26:36.193)

No, that's true. But how do you get there? That's the question, because it seems for some reason that many people have lost the sense to just like the wonder is there. OK, maybe as a sensation, but very quickly, like you find kind of an escape, you know, I just watch my kids, for instance, like they have difficulty sitting just being bored.

Right. There's always an answer. There's always a thing. And I'm trying at least not to be an example of like someone who defaults to picking up the phone when there is a silence or there is a gap between tasks. Yeah, because, you know, I've been sick for two weeks now, which means I haven't been

in my usual rhythm of like doing things the normal way. I've pretty much been at home. This is the first time when I came to my studio to have this chat with you. But my frequency has completely changed because the first thing on my first day of illness, I was like. OK, well, what am I going to do? I guess I need to rest. OK, so what does that mean? Well, I guess I'll read a book. OK.

And then, like, I've been reading nonfiction books all the time and my body literally said, no, please, not more information. That's what I felt, like, literally, not more stuff, not more information. I was like, that was an interesting thing. OK, I haven't read literature in a while. Let me pick up some literature. I read two books in the last two weeks, literature, and I was deeply moved by them. And I just feel like I understood

many things that I would never understand by reading another nonfiction book, which honestly, by now, as a big nonfiction book kind of reader, they're just getting redundant. Like these ideas. But these words, the way they're structured, these sentences, these pictures being painted in these books, fiction books, literature, I'm like, whoa, there's so much life there. Freshness. what the hell was this word?

Tommy Zee (01:29:04.289)

or this like sequence of words and it does shit to you and you're like, wow, just by exposing myself to these sentences, I'm literally like shifting my perspective much better than from nonfiction. So I have to say the last two weeks have been incredible for that. Like so much more space. I'm not exposing myself to the feeds.

I'm not reading the news. I just really briefly glance at the news in the morning just to make sure I know generally what's happening. But I'm not turning on the discussions, for instance, the heated debates about who is evil and who is great and who is the savior and who... I'm not interested. I'm not interested because honestly, the news has turned into a product in itself.

Brian Funk (01:29:44.869)

escape.

Tommy Zee (01:30:01.518)

whereby the intention is not to inform you, it's to get your attention. It's a product, man. It's a product, unfortunately. It's to keep you watching. Exactly. And so the entire political thing has turned into, like, basically a spectacle. And I was just like, nah, you know, that's not how I'm going to heal. But

Brian Funk (01:30:09.361)

Yeah, to keep you watching the news, like pretty much everything else.

Tommy Zee (01:30:28.835)

You know, after these two weeks, when I'm coming back to myself, I'm like, why would I change my modus operandi now? Like, I think I'm just going to keep reading literature. I think I'm just going to like limit my newsfeed time. And yeah, just make more space, more space. It's been good. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:30:57.011)

You almost got to wonder if your body was calling out for that, right? Like, you know what, Tommy? We need you to slow down, so now you're sick. Relax, buddy. Yeah.

Tommy Zee (01:31:08.687)

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised, right? I think our body, this is the interesting thing also, and I think this is a good way for us to like bring it home, which is.

Look how easily it is for creative people.

We're often insecure to trust an outside source, especially like AI, which is eloquent. And it very definitely and confidently will tell you, no, this is what it is. And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. Thank you. But that's not the way the way is to talk to yourself. The way is to learn to tune into your own body, your own intuition, to hone it.

and to trust it and to say, you know what, despite the doubts, I think the only way for me to be happy with my creative expression is to really just go with my instincts. For better or for worse, you know, to go with the instincts, to trust myself. Yeah.

That's what I've learned in the past two weeks.

Brian Funk (01:32:31.869)

Well, maybe something weird has happened. know, our hardware hasn't changed since human beings first walked the earth. We're the same computer, you know, the same iPhone 2 or whatever you want to think of us as. But all of the information has changed. We have so much access to it. So.

I could imagine that maybe it used to be we had a lot more time in contact with our internal selves because it wasn't just the abundance of information. So we craved the external information and now that we've got it, it's like we can have as much as we want. So we're on that programming to keep pulling in the external information, keep getting more, read more nonfiction. I do the same thing. And I'm like, I read this book writing. It's like, no, you read 10 others like it.

Tommy Zee (01:33:26.329)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:33:27.257)

And our balance is off because we're kind of, we were programmed in a world where we didn't have access to this information. And now we have to sort of consciously, you know, reprogram ourselves a little bit to also go within, pay attention to what's inside too, and turn off the constant flow of information. I can remember.

the change, especially once I got my first laptop to make music on. And now I'm checking websites regularly. Now I have my RSS feed. Now I have, you know, all these places where I get information and I do it every day and it's emails are coming in and that's a big part. So much coming at me that I've just turned into routine that I never used to have. So yeah, turning it down a little bit.

is important, probably something we have to do on purpose.

Tommy Zee (01:34:23.631)

I think it's a good step. I think it's a good step and a good experiment. I would advise it as an experiment and reflection. Yeah, just do it for two weeks, see how you feel. if it feels more human, more natural, if it feels like you're more connected, if it feels like there's more agency or more authorship possible, that's coming from a place of peace and greater discernment.

That's probably a good thing, I'm just saying.

Brian Funk (01:34:57.296)

Yeah. Well, I had it over the summer, about two weeks. were out West going to the national parks, Western United States. like Yellowstone and Glacier National Park, really cool, spectacular places to see with almost no internet. And it was refreshing. And wouldn't you know it, I really didn't miss much. You know?

Tommy Zee (01:35:18.5)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:35:26.674)

Life went on. I don't think I was set back too far. I mean, the reality is I think it was very helpful to just be forced to be away from it. And it does, it makes you kind of reevaluate your relationship with it a little bit.

Tommy Zee (01:35:38.745)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy Zee (01:35:45.283)

Yeah, I think it's important to probably schedule these things, like make it a thing every quarter or whatever, maybe a mini getaway. But I'm certainly going to stick to this kind of hermit like thing for as long as possible.

Brian Funk (01:36:04.058)

And it's so not hermit in the scale of human time, you know? You're still way more connected than we ever were, so...

Tommy Zee (01:36:08.182)

Off.

We're so connected, man, so connected. But, you know, maybe that's where the answer is that.

if we can make considered intentional.

wise use of all the technological developments so that they become tools to us becoming better humans and unlocking what is best in us, then that is probably only possible because we take enough time to contemplate. But it's not about the removal of technology from our life. But it's that cooperation. But it can only happen to our advantage if we approach it intentionally.

And we can only do that if the ratio of our awareness to like usage and being kidnapped by let's say external things is more toward the contemplation side. Which means that like when you engage with technology you can actually use whatever it can offer right now to be prolific, to create great things and not so much time will be required.

Tommy Zee (01:37:29.337)

But it's very easy also to get lost in it.

Brian Funk (01:37:34.269)

Yeah. Well, it's programmed to keep you in. That's what I want. mean, chat GPT too. I might ask it to find me something based on what I wrote in a blog or a podcast episode. And it never just gives me the answer. says, would you like me to now turn it into a, you want, like, hey, I'm still here. Like, you don't have to leave yet. Yeah. Let's keep this going. Let's keep this going.

Tommy Zee (01:37:51.785)

Right. Yeah, good point. Good point. Let's continue. Yeah, let's continue. Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one. Yeah, that's where we have to kind of put our foot down and say, I'm not going to drink at this infinite well of. It's novelty and stimulation. I need to remind myself, what am I trying to do over here?

Yeah, yeah, this is good.

Brian Funk (01:38:26.418)

Stop drinking from the infinite well. Might be the title of this episode.

Tommy Zee (01:38:29.455)

Stop drinking from the infinite. There you go. Well, let's experiment with that. Might want to run it through chat GPT for some alternate titles. I'm just kidding. Go with your gut. Go with your gut, Brian. Yeah, dude, it's been a pleasure talking to you. I'm going to probably. Close down the screens now and.

Brian Funk (01:38:40.348)

Nah, screw that.

Tommy Zee (01:38:55.641)

Go watch the Chopin competition, which is more screens, but of a different kind. There's a Chopin competition happening in Warsaw. The finalists are now going to play along with the Warsaw Philharmonic. And it's been very exciting for me because the last two weeks have been that. Literature, Chopin competition in the background. The whole time I'm watching these genius kids doing genius things at the piano.

So I recommend it, man. A steady diet of literature and these timeless pieces of art performed by really capable folks.

Brian Funk (01:39:31.162)

Hmm, never heard of it, that's cool.

Brian Funk (01:39:40.786)

Nice. You too. We'll send people to Making Music for Brands. I'll put all the links in there.

Tommy Zee (01:39:43.897)

Good seeing you again, brother.

Tommy Zee (01:39:50.671)

Yeah, they can go to studios.co, Making Music for Brands. For those who want to go beyond Making Music for Brands, they can go to TommyZ.com. It's where I basically collect emails from people who want to talk about life and what is a life well lived all about. But yeah.

That's where they can find me.

Brian Funk (01:40:19.954)

Cool, well it's good stuff. I can tell you firsthand, everybody. Well thank you guys for listening. Thank you, Tommy.

Tommy Zee (01:40:26.233)

Thank you, brother.

Tommy Zee (01:40:30.083)

Blessings to everyone.

The November 2025 Monthly Music Mission for the Music Production Club is to make music using uneven loop lengths.

Check out the video above to see how mixing up the loop lengths in your music can make it more exciting and less repetitive.

Music Production Club

Every month members of the Music Production Club participate in a Monthly Music Mission. I supply you with tools and a prompt for your music-making. It’s a fun way to give yourself a little bit of challenge and direction with your music.

During November, I am giving members of the MPC my Mellow Drums Ableton Live Pack and Washed Ableton Live Pack to make music with. That’s in addition to the huge collection of Ableton Live Packs, Education Materials, Music-Making Tools that comes with a membership to the Music Production Club.

In this conversation, Tom shares his journey from early YouTube educator to the co-creator of Orchid, a new instrument, dreamt up by Tame Impala's Kevin Parker, built to spark musical ideas with immediacy and joy. We explore the evolution of his creative philosophy, how tools can invite spontaneity, and what he’s learned about music (and life) by building instruments from scratch. 

This episode is sponsored by Baby Audio and their new plug-in Tekno!
Save 15% with the code: MPP15 - https://babyaud.io/tekno 

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Takeaways:

• From YouTube to Orchid - Tom’s journey started with early Ableton tutorials on YouTube and led to co-creating Orchid—a creative “ideas machine” that helps musicians quickly generate complex chord progressions.

• Music in Everything - Whether converting brainwaves, weather data, or the movement of a spider into sound, Tom finds musicality in everyday patterns and natural systems.

• Designing for Play - Tom emphasizes having fun while making music. Orchid was intentionally built without a screen to encourage tactile exploration and playful interactions.

• Community-Driven Development - Community has been a constant factor in Tom's work and continues through community-feedback on Orchid.

• Making Time for Music Again - After years focused on building hardware, Tom is excited to return to making music—starting with 80 unfinished tracks and a fresh wave of curiosity.

Links:

• Telepathic Instruments - https://telepathicinstruments.com

• Telepathic Instruments on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/telepathic.instruments/

• Telepathic Instruments on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@telepathic.instruments

• Tom Cosm Website - https://www.cosm.co.nz

• Tom's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/cosmcosm

• Tom's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/tomcosm/

• Tame Impala - https://www.tameimpala.com

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:01.88)

Tom Cosm welcome to the show. Great to have you, sir.

Tom Cosm (00:05.134)

Thanks for having me here. Always a fan of your work, so good to have a chat. Yeah.

Brian Funk (00:10.414)

Well, I want to tell you, maybe first off, you were one of the first people that really inspired me with just the concept of live electronic music, like going way back. I wasn't even using Ableton Live and you're probably part of the reason I got into that too. I was coming out of like rock bands and trying to figure out what I was going to do, you know, like...

Tom Cosm (00:24.398)

Wow.

Brian Funk (00:36.846)

You know, they break up and like you want to try to find a way to do your music on your own and you were talking about Live electronic music and showing like yeah, you can actually perform this stuff It's not just playing backing tracks and it's not just a CD that you play your guitar or karaoke over or anything like that and I was just blown away by all that stuff and I think you're one of the very few people that set me on this course in a lot of ways so I

Tom Cosm (00:55.14)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:05.204)

really appreciate everything you've done.

Tom Cosm (01:05.389)

Wow, that's a powerful statement. Thank you very much. Yeah, that definitely is quite an impactful thing to hear. Thank you.

Brian Funk (01:14.606)

You're one of the early guys doing those tutorials when YouTube wasn't known for that. I was just learning. You could learn on YouTube at that point.

Tom Cosm (01:18.508)

Yeah. Well.

I mean there's an interesting short story there, because that was purely an accidental thing. I'd like to say that I saw YouTube and went, no one's making tutorial videos for electronic music. It was actually a friend of mine, Ben, who was studying film and he was doing kind of an end of year project and he needed a topic. And he said, so he's doing all this cool stuff with computers and music, should we just make a few videos on how you do that?

And was just going to be for his college. And he made a really great video, edited it together. It might be the one that you saw. know, it was just kind of a handful of 10 minute videos of me running through my setup. And I was a bit more nervous back then. and then we're like, this YouTube thing is here. Why don't we upload it to that? And the views just started climbing. And that was when I went, OK, well, I guess I'm pivoting from.

being a musician into teaching music now. So it was, yeah, it's, yeah, I owe a lot to him as you, just kind of nicely owed some stuff to me. I'm going to pass the baton to Ben, my friend Ben for actually getting me on there. I love it and I don't regret anything about it, but yeah, it just happened to be one of the first, if not the first Ableton one. And that's just having that sort of, badge or

or status I guess is kind of yeah just kind of help fuel things whether I put out absolute weird chaotic experimental stuff or not you know I try to mix it up between actual good educational content and Tom's just found a spider and he's going to hook it up to something and make sounds out of it very ethically you know with motion capture I'm not actually hooking a spider up to anything and I let them go spiders are cool they're our friends yeah

Brian Funk (03:09.934)

You

No spiders were harmed.

Tom Cosm (03:20.1)

Yeah. Cool.

Brian Funk (03:21.666)

But yeah, think you did a great job.

just introducing people to the concept that this can be done and it can be interesting and expressive. And after seeing some of the stuff you've done since then, I mean, some of it, I don't even understand what you're doing. Like just this kind of like science projects, dream waves. think you had your brain hooked up to the Max For Live patch, creating music while you were sleeping.

Tom Cosm (03:41.582)

We need a...

Tom Cosm (03:46.98)

Yeah.

Yeah, I just got a new brainwave machine. This was gifted to me by, I won't say who, but it's one of the Muse ones. So I've been making my own janky ones and I have wires and stuff for years and now I've got this thing that just kind of slips over your head and a lot more comfortable. Anyway, yeah, brainwaves. Love my brainwaves. Yeah, they're for art.

Brian Funk (04:10.359)

Yeah.

Right. what a cool thing too, so personalized, right? Like you're taking data, right? Essentially and converting that into other data that turns into music. But it's from your brain, it's from your mind and even in the subconscious mind, I guess, as well.

Tom Cosm (04:24.622)

Hmm.

Tom Cosm (04:31.77)

That's it. That's it. And I mean, the type of these types of devices and, the things that are out there, which are in the price range of, you know, a hobbyist being able to take them and use them. They don't have, you know, as much resolution or as something you would get in, you know, say a research lab or something like that. But they're definitely accurate enough for art. You know, they're a bit noisy. You know, they might, you know, but they can definitely pick up relaxation, attention.

fear sometimes, nostalgia even if you you you balance everything right and the fun part for me is seeing what I can get out of the different brainwave bands and frequencies and trying to find what that actually means you know so yeah but as a general statement I think I like I've always had a big passion for taking taking data any data in the real world could be the weather

be stock markets, be brain waves, could be a spider running around on my desk and figuring out how I can convert that into something which produces nice audio without any sort of rhythmical or harmonic quantization. Maybe I'll harmonically quantize something to a minor scale just so it's not doing chromatic things all over the place, but I really like trying to that finding sample sets of data and seeing what they sound like.

Yeah, it seems to be a recurring theme for almost everything I do in my own time.

Brian Funk (06:04.141)

It's almost like a backwards thing in a way where you're taking the emotion, a lot of times music is the thing that elicits the emotion, and now you're creating the music from emotions and thoughts that will therefore create new emotions and thoughts, just kind of branching off of interaction.

Tom Cosm (06:14.319)

Mm.

Tom Cosm (06:25.178)

I get a deep sense of wonderment and excitement and mystery when I do this sort of work. Especially when I do it. I mostly do it as a hobby or I might do some sort of art piece for a festival or something. I've never done anything. I've done a few things. But there's been a few instances where I've done it on a contract level for a company who wants some research done or a company that wants an ad campaign done.

Yeah, that to me is... That blows my mind, yeah. Look, I've always tended to be the person that...

gets asked to do the thing that nobody else wants to tackle, know, when it comes to sound or doing weird things with sound. Yeah. So I tend to get people who, you know, I say, how did you find me? And they said, well, we were asking all these people and they kept saying, go and talk to Tom. That sounds like something Tom would do. And I really, I really liked that, you know, like that's, if it seems impossible, I'll give it a really good go. And that's that, that fills my cup.

Brian Funk (07:34.381)

It's a cool reputation to have. Here's the guy that's gonna do something really outlandish with some sound that no one else really knows how to do.

Tom Cosm (07:40.942)

Yeah.

I'm sure it a few people out, that's, that's, that's, that's odd, Yeah.

Brian Funk (07:46.914)

Yeah, that's good art though, right? I think that's part of the definition. Yeah. Well, I guess that's why you got the call to work on orchid telepathic instruments, congratulations on that whole project. I've been following it, watching it come to life.

Tom Cosm (08:02.202)

Thank you, thank you.

Brian Funk (08:07.565)

I just saw that Time Magazine put it as one of the best music inventions of the year. mean, how cool is that? Congrats. Awesome.

Tom Cosm (08:15.386)

Yeah, that was, that was, that was a bit of a shock. mean, wonderful. But yeah, I still haven't really processed that, you know, I mean, it's quite a, yeah, I mean, we've just been, we've been so, so busy with just getting this, getting this thing perfect and out to customers. I just, I've got quite a few things that I put on the shelf and I need to take a week and go, well, something, something.

We made this as in Time magazine that that's that's kind of a thing. Yeah,

Tom Cosm (08:53.642)

Yeah. Some people have said that to me. Yeah, a people have mentioned it to me and I haven't acted like real excited and it's just because I just haven't figured out how to be excited about that yet. I really am. I'm just, it's just such a crazy concept. mean, I think five years ago I was much more of a, I don't was playing music at festivals and traveling around and just, you

Brian Funk (08:54.347)

might have to put the brainwave machine on and see what that comes out with.

Brian Funk (09:06.541)

Hmm.

Tom Cosm (09:22.052)

just kind of didn't really have much of a care in the world and now I'm kind of, you know, time magazine. So yeah, interesting journey.

Brian Funk (09:32.279)

Maybe when you get the actual magazine in your hand, see it's a real world thing.

Tom Cosm (09:36.194)

Or do you think it'll be published in the magazine? I don't really know how magazines work these days. It seems like they do blogs, but if it's in the actual magazine, I'll buy one of those and give it to my mum and dad. I think that'll make them proud. Wish they already are. They're very proud of what I do.

Brian Funk (09:47.425)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (09:52.296)

Right. Yeah, that's cool. It's a great way to justify the career in music and arts. Right. I think probably a lot of parents get a little nervous when their kids decide to take those paths. Like, don't you want to be like a lawyer or a doctor?

Tom Cosm (10:00.986)

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (10:11.725)

Absolutely, yeah. There were 10 years there where I don't think anybody, including myself, knew what I was actually doing. So yeah, it's a good little trophy to put up there to say, hey, we'll actually change the

Brian Funk (10:24.332)

Yeah, well, I mean, that didn't exist at the time, right? Like this career path that you found and built, you couldn't, you wouldn't have been able to pick that in high school as your path to, I want this, that's I want to do. I'm to go on this new thing called YouTube and take it from there.

Tom Cosm (10:32.634)

Mm-hmm.

Tom Cosm (10:40.922)

Mm.

And just the lead up to it, so you know the initial stage, know when Kevin reached out and we started working together and going back and forth and making prototypes, that was cool. I'm in my zone there for sure. And then there's this, wait you want to make thousands of these? Okay, and you know I don't know how to do that. Well I didn't know how to do that. And kind of...

finding the right people and then they had contacts and then suddenly there's a team and they're all they're all excellent at what they do and I'm kind of overseeing things you know and I'm used to working alone so I don't mind working with people but I've definitely worked alone most of my life you know again in my little dark room tinkering with you know electronics and whatever so just just that that phase of as we as we grew towards the first drop you could say where where I was

overseeing things and making sure that all these new extremely talented people were still keeping to the vibe of the machine, making sure that nothing got lost. then going over to China and meeting with manufacturers and going into production lines and sitting down in production lines and actually doing the assembly with a whole bunch of people and going, that moment then, mean, this is...

this is a weird life thing man, this is cool, this is so cool but yeah that was very, that moment there when I'm in the production line, know, like doing some quality assurance stuff in China, I'm going okay, yeah, I couldn't have predicted this one, absolutely not. yeah, it's great, I love it, I love it, it's so much fun.

Brian Funk (12:26.348)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (12:31.398)

And it's a super cool example of following that dream and passion and jump into the next step and then realizing there's another step beyond that that I didn't see from the last one and moving forward.

Tom Cosm (12:46.412)

Yeah, and I have no idea what's next either. that's, yeah. Yeah, we're definitely gonna, we're definitely gonna, I wanna build some more things, that's for sure. So, yeah.

Brian Funk (12:49.908)

Yeah, none of us do,

Brian Funk (12:58.092)

Well, maybe if people aren't so familiar with it, we can tell them just a little bit of what Ork it is, the project, how you got involved. It sounds like a great story and probably a surprising story from your end.

Tom Cosm (13:13.732)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it's a video podcast. Yeah. Cool. Okay. If I, I thought a few props that I might bring up then here and there. well, I mean, the story, as I said, just before the story began, it was quite funny. Actually I was, I was on Instagram and I was getting all these messages from kind of teenagers and stuff.

Brian Funk (13:24.935)

cool, excellent.

Tom Cosm (13:39.972)

just all in, you know, maybe 20 or 30 in a period of a few hours saying, who are you? Like, you know, how do know Kevin? I was certainly going, what, what's going on? I kind of showed my partner at the time. She's like, they're saying Kevin Parker. That's, that's, that's Taiman Parlor. So I went into the Taiman Parlor Instagram and they just freshly followed me. So I was getting a lot of their fans wondering who this person was. And, you know, so.

I kind of reached out, I reached back and said, hey, you you just followed me like, what's up? You know, it's there. Is there anything I can help you with? And Kevin's just like, yeah, I've got this, I've got this idea. I've been brewing for years and years based off an old Casio I used to play. And it's just this chord machine. you know, he kind of told me the details. I got interested. Next thing I know, we're kind of swapping. He's sending me kind of, kind of, you know, MIDI effect.

kind of bundles of like how we could see it working and I'm sending them back kind of max adaptions and we're drawing things on paper and yeah eventually we got to the point where we had a software prototype that that worked with just a standard MIDI keyboard I think one of these like a innovation or something and yeah once we were happy I mean okay well I'm more of a software guy but I like building things so I got all the bits and pieces together I got my friend Zach to help build this so this is the original

P0 we call it, prototype 0. It's seen better days, I need to do a repair job on it, but he kind of built this aluminium slash perspex thing, you can see all these terrible soldering going on in the bottom and yeah, put a pie in it, put an Arduino in it, got some knobs, got some buttons, hoped for the best and it worked, it works really well. So I sent that over to Kevin. I remember very...

very significant point I got a video from one of his friends just him sitting quietly at a house party but he was sitting quietly by himself with a glass of wine just playing it with his eyes shut and I just went nailed it. And then just very quickly after that it was like cool let's ramp this up I don't think this should be just one of these I think we should really put a lot into it I guess it's a good

Brian Funk (15:48.78)

That's what I'm going for.

Tom Cosm (16:04.346)

I mean this is the end product here. It's a good for people who are unfamiliar. It's an ideas machine for generating chords. You can use these buttons here to kind of donate major chords or complex chords with sixths or sevenths or ninths and then you just simply push one of these keys and it will play that chord and you can move around the register like here. This is kind like your octave button but you can go in inversions and then we've got a whole range of synth engine parameters and performance effects and things like that.

So that's it in a nutshell, just if anyone's following along and hasn't actually figured out what we're talking about yet. And it's called Orchid. Yeah, so just going from that to that. Obviously we needed a really good designer. We got Ignacio from Moving Design to come in. Who's responsible for, well, him and Kevin responsible for the look of the thing, which I think is amazing. You know, that's so outside of my scope. So to have a team on how it's going to look.

Not just how it's going to look, how it's going to vibe. know, what does it feel like when it's sitting on your coffee table? know, that kind of stuff. Like it's really important. And got some really good coders in who could take my kind of janky code and turn it into like really good stuff. Synth engine specialists. So we pack like a really unique synth engine in there, which is our own. not just off the shelf and it's, you know, it's an actual

fully fledged synth engine with um we've got three three oscillator types you know we've got FM subtractive and our own sort of analog modeled electric piano analog piano type sound which kind of gives it a really unique flavor and yeah the team just grew and grew and grew and yeah it got to a point where you know there were a few stages where i'm not sure i know what i'm doing like you know everyone's looking at me for a decision and i've never been here before and i can't google this but you know just through

through asking people and intuition and we made some pretty good decisions and a few things that held us back. We didn't get everything right, especially in the first couple of drops, but this one that we've just done this weekend, we've made a lot of them. They're still for sale as of the recording of this. And we feel like we have released version one of finished product, which we're happy with, which isn't...

Tom Cosm (18:29.506)

a beta or anything like that. We have released a beta of our software to control the synth engine. So we've started a new thing, but yeah, it's kind of as of last weekend. went, okay, this is a finished product now. Like we are really, really, really happy with how this is. I think that's the first time I've told that storyline from the start to the finish. How'd I do?

Brian Funk (18:50.763)

Excellent. It's full of surprises and twists. It's cool to see the prototype you have there. Because the end product is really sleek.

Tom Cosm (18:56.954)

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (19:01.592)

It's fun, yeah.

Brian Funk (19:06.493)

It's got a simplicity to it. It looks to me like how we thought the future was going to be in the 80s. If you know that feeling, like it didn't turn out like that really, but it has that like kind of like almost maybe even like a Jetsonsy, you know, the cartoon feel, which is even older, I guess, an older vision of the future. But.

Tom Cosm (19:13.848)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Tom Cosm (19:23.716)

kids and see you.

Tom Cosm (19:29.422)

You can imagine how much fun we had sitting around talking just like that. know, just trying to, Star Trek, what if we mix that with a car? What about this car? we've got orchids, we'll put some flowers in here. You know, so it's kind of, it was really fun to just be really abstract and use lots of metaphors and analogies, you know, in the initial stages. And that's the kind of, in my opinion, that's the kind of...

raw material that's the most valuable for Ignacio, for him to hear people kind of speak about their memories and their experiences and this thing has this particular emotion to me and you know all of these objects and you know he can take those and actually come up with it with a CAD of an industrial designed object you know and that is amazing like I've never seen anything like that before in my life it's beautiful it's art to me.

Brian Funk (20:22.507)

Yeah, it is. And it's a little bit of a step away from, I think, a lot of design that's happening now. I think, to me, it seems like everything's getting very square, like an angular. And this is smooth and rounded. Looks a little different. Kind of has a different kind of call to it than some of the other stuff that you see.

Tom Cosm (20:33.166)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Stick.

Tom Cosm (20:48.664)

Yeah, it's definitely by design, you know. we want, again, we want people to be proud of it, you know. Ultimately we want it to be useful and help people write music and come up with ideas, but we want people to pull it out.

people to go, wow, that's so cool. What is that? know? And I mean, yes, from a, I guess, marketing perspective, which I'm not much involved in, but yes, that's good idea. But the idea is, you bring it, I mean, I gave one to my nephew and he took it to high school and I can only imagine, you know, it's just like you pull it out and then all of a sudden there's all these people who are experimenting around with music who might not have ever touched an instrument in their lives, but instantly they're making chord progressions, complex chord progressions.

So I think that's, for me this is my personal opinion, I think that's quite a big part of it. It's a curiosity and to me that only means more people getting interested in writing music. Or maybe releasing music that's in their mind but they've never had the training or the courage to actually do something and get it down into something else they can share with people, you know.

Brian Funk (22:03.336)

Yeah, I think that immediacy is especially important today. I've asked this question a lot of myself, talked about it on this podcast, where...

Tom Cosm (22:15.119)

Mm.

Brian Funk (22:16.426)

When I started playing guitar, was 14. It's the 90s and there's nothing else to do. So you suffer through it, right? Like your fingers hurt, but you want to get better and you learn a little bit and you're so excited to get one little bit of information and you work with it. I don't know if today with phones and the internet, I don't know if I would make it through those stages when I could just turn to an app or social media and get that kind of.

Tom Cosm (22:22.5)

Yep.

Tom Cosm (22:44.378)

Hmm.

Brian Funk (22:45.798)

instant, much smaller sense of gratification but still something. Whereas something like this where you can sound like, I'm making music already. Get you in quick.

Tom Cosm (22:51.994)

I'm with-

Tom Cosm (22:55.757)

Mmm.

See, I've been going through this recently as well, know, if I catch myself scrolling at kind of 10 o'clock at night, depending on when I finish my day and I'll be in my room and you know, all of my stuff is in this room, you know, this is where I work, this is where I have my music stuff and my build my stuff. But in my room, it's kind of turned into this place where, you know,

you can lie on the bed and scroll on your phone. And I'm kind of going, I don't know if I like this. you know, I've just kind of put an orchid on the corner of my bed and I've gotten able to move sitting there as well. You know, just two things and just trying to like, instead of reaching for my phone, it's like, I'll just reach over and turn it off. Cool, I'm playing a chord, you know? And yeah, it's, I don't know if it's working yet. It's a very new thing, but I'm definitely, I'm.

I'm really looking for new ways to get back into writing music in my downtime. And I think the reason, just to get deep on it, is my downtime has changed quite a lot with the shift. So as I saying, 10 years ago, I was free, was doing my hours, I could stay up for two days writing music if I wanted to. But now I'm kind of like, I've got two hours here, I've got four hours tonight. I'm gonna be tired, because I'm gonna be doing these

and that's a really interesting thing for me because quite a few times I've tried to it's like cool I've got two hours let's sit down and do some sound design or something but knowing that I have that limitation has affected my ability to get into a flow state if that makes sense so you know I can't even though you know it could only take me 10 minutes to get into it to that state the fact that I know that there's going to be an ending point has

Tom Cosm (24:48.6)

Yeah, it kind of stops me from really getting in there. It's kind of like, I see these memes that make me feel seen, where people have a meeting at midday, but they've got nothing on until midday. But the fact they've got a meeting at midday means they just pot around. They can't really do anything until that meeting happens. And I've overcome that, but I'm definitely one of those people that...

when I have a particular thing coming up, I find that I'm not able to get creative unless that thing is a creative deadline, then it's on. If I need to finish a track by this time because it's gonna go out to get mastered or whatever, that's a different story. yeah, I'm kind of re, I kind of paused my own personal projects. I think.

people who follow me who watching this, you know, you've probably noticed that I haven't put out any content or music in the last couple of years or anything that's up to the usual level of what I like to put out. And it's, yeah, it's purely because I'm so hyper-focused on...

on this and I've made the decision after trying to do stuff and then get a bit annoyed and you know I'd almost say angry I'm not an angry person but I get a little bit like you know I've lost it I can't make make music anymore and when you don't know it's not that like you just just just pause for a bit you know get this big project thing that you're loving and excited about out of the way and then you can just pick it back up and once I made that decision things just got

great like ideas that came into my head with music I wouldn't get annoyed because I think I couldn't make them I'm just like cool all right this is something I can do once I've got you know a couple of weeks spare down the line when we've got this this amazing instrument out there and everyone's happy so yeah it's been a interesting journey for me

Brian Funk (26:44.778)

So you mean you're sort of like setting yourself up for when that time comes? Like, okay, I've got a few little sketches, ideas, thoughts I want, and then I know the time is coming, I don't know when, but when it gets here, I don't have to think about what it's gonna be. I'm able to hit the ground running.

Tom Cosm (26:53.146)

Mm.

Tom Cosm (26:59.406)

Yeah, yeah, I'd say it's more of a couple of notebooks, notebooks, ideas. So I'll need to pick the ones that still resonate with me, guess, when that free time comes. But I will just say that free time has come pretty much this week. Like I've got a taste of it at least. And again, I don't want to say that the stuff I've been doing hasn't been an enjoyable

Brian Funk (27:06.11)

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (27:26.778)

part of my life. absolutely love what I'm doing with telepathic instruments. I'm so passionate about it. I'm happy. It's just awesome. yeah, I kind of this this week, you know, we're doing customer support now and you're making sure people are shipping is going out and everything's running really smoothly. But once that dies down, there's this is going to be a couple of weeks, I think, I can

start writing some music again or finish some old tracks and that just that alone that that taste is really exciting for me so i'm looking forward to that yeah

Brian Funk (27:58.942)

That might bring you some renewed passion and enthusiasm towards your work. like it's finally here. Like, you know, sometimes you can, when you're doing it all the time, it can become the routine and you might, I don't know if you do this because you seem like you're, you're trying all kinds of new stuff all the time, but you open the same template or you go for the same sounds and things like that.

Tom Cosm (28:03.864)

Mmm. Yeah.

Tom Cosm (28:22.831)

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (28:26.106)

Well, I've got, I don't know if you like this, but I've got a folder on my computer with probably 80 unfinished tracks in there. And I would say 10 of them are 98 % ready to go. just, you know, I just couldn't, I couldn't quite say this is finished. So I think, yeah, I think, I think the first thing I'll do is kind of.

spend a day going through that and being like, yeah, this one and this one, you know, I think that that'll be one of the Maybe one of the first things I do I also thought it be really cool because I I've been a bit out of the loop with Ableton live versions as well and new features and all that kind of thing I was talking to Who was it? I think it was I think it was Dennis when I was over in Berlin a couple of weeks ago

He started talking about you know stem separation and how that what Ableton life has stem? Separation or what what's going on? So I'm I think I I think I might do like a big live stream and invite people to come and like yell things at me like hey try this and try and like

Tell me what the new things are that I've missed. think Live 12 was the last version I really used producing. I know there's only two or three major versions or whatever, but Ableton will really cram in some epic things in those minor versions. So yeah, think I'd like to do that. I think it'd be fun. It's like, okay, I'm rusty. I haven't been paying attention. I'm going to jump in blind and yeah, let's say you lot teach me. That teach me what I've missed. Yeah, I think it'd be fun.

Brian Funk (29:58.728)

Yeah, that's a fun turning of the tables a little bit. Kind of seeing what are you going to do with this now? Well, I hear that. mean, they're packing in so many features. Sometimes, you know, the new stuff comes out and then you're like, man, I forgot about that really awesome thing that was like three versions ago. I've stopped playing around with it because I'm either doing the new stuff or there's just too much to keep up with. Great problem to have.

Tom Cosm (30:03.214)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (30:25.762)

Yeah. What, what, what out of, since 12 and 12.X, what, what have you been using the most like practically, you know, not producing for, for, for your audience or anything like that. What do you, what's the feature that you like the most? If you can, if I can put you on the spot.

Brian Funk (30:47.409)

Yeah, it's probably, I want to have a more glamorous answer, but I think it's the bounce in place. It's the, and there's now a copy and bounce. It's like a copy and paste in place. So this feature is just super cool. I never would have thought of it, but you can just highlight any section of a clip, say an arrangement view and.

Tom Cosm (31:02.062)

Okay.

Tom Cosm (31:11.855)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (31:13.769)

copy it and then paste it to a new track and it just prints it whatever little section so all those effects

Tom Cosm (31:18.35)

just a regular, regular control C, control V, or...

Brian Funk (31:22.557)

Yeah, it's I think it might be like Shift-Ctrl-V or something along those lines. It's a... Yeah, so it's just like you want that track you have with the whole string of effects on it to sound like it does down here. Just copy and paste in place or I think it's paste in place it's called. That's a pretty new one, but I'm just like, yes. You know, like now I'm just going to mangle sounds and twist them up and...

Tom Cosm (31:28.206)

That's amazing. I didn't know you could do that. That's great.

Tom Cosm (31:38.969)

Mm-hmm.

Tom Cosm (31:44.356)

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (31:52.652)

It's a real balance of new features and workflow improvements. I think people will be able to know this, but the way they just continuously give you better workflow improvements has always been why I've just...

Brian Funk (31:58.578)

It's a big workflow, yeah.

Tom Cosm (32:12.95)

stuck with them so loyally. And without messing with what already exists, because there's nothing more frustrating than an update comes out and then suddenly a shortcut which you use all the time is just slightly changed.

Brian Funk (32:28.903)

Yeah, there was a little bit of that happening with 12. Some things got shifted around a bit, I think, all in all for the better. But I mean, that's a tough one, I guess, right? And you can probably speak to this a little bit in terms of Orchid, where you've got this, here it is, it exists now. And you may be doing firmware updates down the line and little changes here and there.

Tom Cosm (32:35.545)

Mmm.

Brian Funk (32:56.497)

And then you might kind of overstep something that, you know, like maybe I love that feature the way it works. It's just so good for me. And then, they changed it now. I got to hold down an extra button and, I can't do it. That's gotta be a tough one.

Tom Cosm (33:04.801)

Okay.

Tom Cosm (33:09.218)

It's not, yeah. And I would say that's a big, it's it's a big part of, of what, what I, what I do and when I'm sort of overseeing things is yeah. If, if, if, you know, like in, in, in the, in the first two drops and we were, we were sort of releasing firmware that we knew had some problems and maybe there was, you know, there's a play style option, right? It's like, or, you know, you could.

this thing can work like A or it can work like B. We're not too sure what the best one is, so we're going to put it in the options menu and let people choose it. And then, you know, this is hypothetical by the way, but this is kind of what kind of happens. then it's like, cool, 90 % of people are using A, so let's remove the options menu and just have A and we don't have to have that. And I'm going, those 10 % of people are going to be not happy about that. You know, we really need to, we really should be...

for an instrument which is all about getting ideas out quickly and immediately and people and it's also something where people learn, know, it's kind of you learn it like you learn like a piano or a guitar or something.

So when it comes to a point where something's going to change, it's like, think we should keep the legacy version and have it as a rollbackable user definable option. Ultimately, as we roll out more firmware and new ideas, which we have a lot of, and we're to be consistently updating this thing, I think a lot of them are around how the user can customize their own experience. Just simple little things like if you push

an extension while you're holding a chord type, you you push the sixth chord or you push the nine chord, you know, so you're playing a C, you're playing a minor, and you go, okay, C minor six. Do you want that six to come in the next time you push the note or do you want it to come in when you push the note? Or do you want it to play just that extension, the sixth, or do you want it to re-trigger the whole chord? You know, so that's like, there's like three different things there and they quite drastically change depending on how people like to work, know, because sometimes it's really fun hitting that chord like it's a, like

Tom Cosm (35:18.202)

it's a finger drum you know but some people want to cue their chord up and when they play the next one it's ready because they want to find their position and only when they hit a new note it changes so there's lots of interesting things like that and it's been really it's been really great to watch like a lot of

lot of people are posting on social media and Instagram and you go to the telepathic instruments Instagram and every day there's 10, 20 reels of people using it and just wild fantastic ways and just seeing how they use it and go, okay, this thing, which we weren't too sure about is actually being used differently by all of these people. And we should just have the option to customize it to your tastes, I guess. Yeah. So that's been really, really fun, you know.

Brian Funk (36:02.396)

Yeah, interesting. Have you come across anybody doing something unexpected? Almost like maybe like what you would have been doing to some of the software back in the day. Like, we never thought of that or that's not how we intended this feature to go.

Tom Cosm (36:09.519)

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (36:12.825)

Yep.

Tom Cosm (36:21.016)

I don't think I'll get in trouble with this one, but if I do, I've got heaps of brownie points, so I'll take one. There's a bit of internal discussion going on at the moment about...

kind of pops and clicks. you know, if you change a sound, if you change a patch from something which is like a really big, rich, lush pad to something which is more of a stabby thing, obviously we're going to have reverb tails, you're going to have zero crossing issues. You're going to get pops if you want that, if you want to instantaneously go from one patch to another. And this currently exists in the, in the firmware when you, when you move between some patches. Sure, we can add little envelopes. So there's a little fade between them. And that there's a fix and proof

But when I went to the telepathic studios in... where was it? It was in Fremantle on Western Australia. Unfortunately, I can't remember the name of the person who was doing it, but I walked into the room and he was using that pop pop and crackle thing as a feature. He was making kind of beats and ambient kind of glitchy drone noises out of the pops and crackles, which was an artifact from us not having...

Having put in a place a fix for it yet And then a few other people had I've seen another person who's feeds it through a reverb and they use changing the the patches quickly and all the artifacts that come with that as a sort of a drone generator so now it's kind of like do we actually as the pops and crackles part of the character of the thing and You know, do we have an options menu where it's like no I actually want the pops and crackles of of changing a patch on or do I want them off? We probably turn them off by default I mean, I will say we've we've had

We've had far more people say they don't like them than I've seen people who are using them. But the fact is there are people using them in that way. So that's just yeah I love I love these sort of these these problems with that require creative solutions you know.

Brian Funk (38:13.35)

Yeah, no right answer.

Tom Cosm (38:13.37)

I mean, I like things when they've got problems with them, you know, it's got some character, you know. I mean, if it didn't turn on, that's not a good problem. But, you know, if you get a little artifact here, there's one synth patch, I'm not going to mention what it is because everyone will do it. There's one synth patch where if you play the right chord and the right note, something about a synth engine will, the maths all lines up in a certain way where you suddenly just get a completely different sound. you know, we're looking at spectrograms going, how is this happening, you know?

It's things like that. It's almost like an Easter egg. Yeah, I mean, can fix it, no one's found it and complained about it yet, so.

Brian Funk (38:55.538)

Hmm. That reminds me of on Ableton's reverb, just playing reverb on the size control. I think it's size and they've updated it. So you do have a dropdown menu. I think it's smooth and whatever it was, but the old way when you turn that, it makes kind of these funny noises that, which can be kind of fun sometimes. It's an

Tom Cosm (39:02.17)

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (39:16.428)

when you change the decay time of a... Yeah, I remember that, yeah.

Tom Cosm (39:23.436)

I put another review after it. Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:26.514)

you have weird things start happening, right? So it's not desirable, I don't think. it, most of the time, probably you don't want that to happen, but when you want it, it's kind of a fun way to mess with your sound a little bit. It's, it's cool to have in there. So yeah, that's a funny one.

Tom Cosm (39:28.728)

Mmm.

Tom Cosm (39:42.522)

It does, yeah.

Tom Cosm (39:46.66)

But once again, they usually always come down to...

You that whole zero crossing thing. It's like do you want to instantly have your result? Do you instantly want to change your decay time from you know? thousand milliseconds to 500 or a You know, do you want a very small envelope and that very small envelope? Especially when you've got transients things like kick drums and hats and snares You know that can actually completely dull and take away the impact of the thing or a stabby chord So yeah, I remember using Ableton and seeing these these things and these

pops in these clicks and you know sometimes you'll drag a sample in and you'll see that like it's got a little attack on it by default and you have to kind of stretch it back if you want to get the full impact of the waveform. I remember used to being like why are they doing this? Why are they dulling down everybody's drums? I don't understand and now I fully get it. You I mean you have to put that stuff in place or I'll see if anything's going to pop and click because the speaker can't go from completely out to completely in or anything that's got to make a transition and if it's suddenly goes from there to there you're basically

Brian Funk (40:28.38)

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (40:49.692)

doing the start of the saw wave you know so I get it yeah there's quite a few things in Ableton that I was always like I wonder why they did that

You know, can't assign MIDI to certain things or, know, they don't, and now I understand much more deeply after building my own instrument. It's like, yeah, that has the potential to just completely put the CPU into an endless loop and heat up and die, you know, so.

Yeah, we really don't want to restrict people, but there are definitely things you've got to take into consideration that could harm the product or harm people's ears as well,

Like when Ableton decided to put, let people put their feedback up on their delays past 100. I remember that day, was like, Ooh, that's brave. You know, cause it's just going to keep going and going and going. And there's nothing more anxiety inducing than hearing a delay start getting out of hand and you don't know where it is in your project. And you're looking at the levels like, where is it? Yeah. So there is, there is something more devastating. It's when you're doing it live in front of a thousand people on a system that could really hurt them. So.

Brian Funk (41:40.442)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Brian Funk (41:49.224)

You know it's coming.

Brian Funk (41:59.91)

Right, yeah. God, doing live sound ever and there's always that moment. Why isn't it any sound? Why isn't it making any sound? And then something's not on and all the faders are all the way up because we can't hear anything and boom.

Tom Cosm (42:01.04)

You

Tom Cosm (42:07.374)

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (42:14.04)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I got hit once. I can't remember what happens. I think someone plugged a power cable into like an audio input or something and I just got hit with noise from speakers at full volume and I fell to the ground. I was like, why did that knock me over? And people were like, you pretty much just got flashbang grenade. It's the same kind of thing.

Brian Funk (42:32.06)

Really?

Brian Funk (42:41.159)

Sonic weapon.

Tom Cosm (42:41.486)

Yeah, really messed with my head, probably my ears as well. was, yeah, was just the worst. Anyway, let's not get into doom stuff.

Brian Funk (42:47.717)

Yeah. yeah, I could believe that. You guys are creating weapons now with the instrument.

Tom Cosm (42:59.348)

I'll veer away from that topic. Yeah, I'm not happy about it, but let's just say that.

Brian Funk (43:01.703)

Probably for the best.

Brian Funk (43:08.487)

If you, guess you just got to think about that though. What kind of parameters are you going to allow people access to and where are going to kind of steer them away from? Do we let them have that? And, and yeah.

Tom Cosm (43:20.058)

Mmm.

Brian Funk (43:26.715)

Were there any tough calls for you on things like the delay is a great example, Like the delay, think only over one up to 95 % until one day. And then it went up as that. Or the resonance on the filters.

Tom Cosm (43:36.698)

Mm-hmm.

Tom Cosm (43:44.09)

I just what you were talking about, mean, again, when you look at it and you look at, sorry for the fingerprints, I've been playing it all morning, but when you look at it, it's only got nine encoders on it. But I know how powerful the synth engine is. It's got a really, really powerful synth engine. I wanna, what does that say? Okay, that's okay to show. I'm going.

Why don't we have sliders? We could have a Tactic A, we have a filter, could have LFO. You know, I'm a synth nerd, wanna, we've got a cool synth engine, let's have all of the parameters and people can just design them. you know, the other creatives were like, no, this is what we're going for. We want people to just have the ease of being able to do things instantly. You can pack a whole lot into these, you know.

And of course now if people do want to deep dive into the synth they can get the software plugged into their computer and they just they can create all their own sounds on it. you know, you can go as deep as you want. But yeah, that was kind of a... I got shut down pretty quickly and I get it. I totally get it. Like the beauty of this is its compactness and its simplicity and having it extend out to here with 50 other knobs is just going to overwhelm people.

Brian Funk (44:49.479)

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (45:01.038)

But yeah, there's things like that, but it's good. We've got a really good team of people. We've got engineers and nerds and we've got creative musicians and really smart designers. And between us all, we know what's going to work best, what's actually possible. And now we've got a community discord, which is just humming. We can also go, this is what people want as well, which is really powerful. Yeah. So we've got really good information about...

of how this thing can improve and, you know, into the future.

Brian Funk (45:35.56)

All that makes sense for accessibility and the whole idea of an idea machine. I'm like you, I love to see the knobs and the faders too, but there's work that comes with that. There's some learning that would definitely would make it harder for your nephew to bring it to high school and have people just pressing buttons and making music.

Tom Cosm (45:49.006)

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (45:52.718)

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (46:00.067)

That's it.

That's it, that's absolutely it. Yeah, I mean, you and me have got, I won't speak for you, but I've definitely got over a decade, probably nearly two of sound design. So give me, me, give me every parameter. Give me the ones that you don't usually give to people. Those are the ones that I want to play with. But, you know, if you're, you're, if you're a guitarist or a vocalist in a band and you're on the bus and you've got an idea in your head, but.

You need to get it down on something. don't need access to a resonator or the fine tuning of an LFO speed. You don't need that stuff. You want to take it out of your bag, sit down, play it, put it back in your bag, go home, and then develop it out with your band. So yeah, it's the smarter choice.

Brian Funk (46:54.735)

I like those kind of tools anyway because they focus me on the creative part and not the technical stuff and the designing sound and stuff. It's even just like one of the things I love about my acoustic guitar. You you just, that's it. This is what you could maybe play around with tunings, I guess, but you play it and you get the raw idea down. You're not trying to dial in the sound or connect your pedals or

Tom Cosm (47:07.566)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (47:20.987)

decide which amp you want or any of that kind of stuff.

Tom Cosm (47:25.826)

It's funny, just before this, jumped on with you, I was talking to one of our co-founders and he was saying a really good way to explain it is, you you choose your chords here. And this is kind of like doing your fingering on the guitar. Cause once you've chosen your chords, you can just move up and down the notes. And I kind of never thought about it like that. Like it's actually, it's actually, it's actually got that same sort of, I don't mean to say this in a-

Brian Funk (47:53.009)

Almost like plucking the strings.

Tom Cosm (47:55.384)

Yeah, it's almost like a cheat code. I don't mean to say that in a negative way, like guitarists are cheating. It's just once you find your chord, you can actually move up and down. You can play C, D, E, F, G, you know? And it's the same with this. Once you've found the chord you like, you can move up and down with the keyboard. I never actually thought about it in that way. it's kind of blew my mind a bit. After four years, went, yeah, it's kind of got a guitarist feeling to it. And then we've got a transpose, which would be a capo.

Brian Funk (48:24.058)

There go. Nice. So it's kind of modeled after the chord section in these old Casio's where you can kind of switch between, you'd have your rhythm.

Tom Cosm (48:38.733)

and

Yeah, definitely Kevin's influence coming through there. I think I've seen the devices he talks about in his interviews and stuff about what expires him. I'm playing on one at his house, which definitely does similar things. Yeah. I wasn't one of the people that played with those as a kid. What did I have? I had an Omnicord.

Brian Funk (49:05.86)

Hmm. Yeah. yeah.

Tom Cosm (49:06.478)

Do remember those? We had strum across the thing and they looked like the Star Trek or whatever. Well no, what's the Millennium Falcon? Yeah, that's what I played on. yeah, it's a real one.

Brian Funk (49:11.482)

Yeah, the Millennium Falcon, yeah. Yeah, they put new ones of those out, actually, recently. I believe it's Yamaha that put it out. Yeah, it's a...

Tom Cosm (49:21.508)

The Omnicords? yeah, yeah, the Toes I think. Yeah. Do you know what changed in them? Well, they probably didn't need to change much to be honest. Yeah.

Brian Funk (49:29.75)

MIDI I think. I think they've got that and I don't even know what else. That might just be the big thing, USB MIDI.

Tom Cosm (49:39.588)

I think I might have seen drums happening on them as well or something like that. I could be wrong. I need to look that up. Yeah, how many chords? Yeah.

Brian Funk (49:48.997)

They fun toys too. Kind of invite you to just play it and not worry about it too much, you know, as far as what's going on.

Tom Cosm (50:01.658)

They were pretty clever. Who was the company behind them, do remember?

Brian Funk (50:06.296)

I'm pretty sure Yamaha was making them.

Tom Cosm (50:11.802)

Sorry to look something up during a podcast, but I'm curious... Suzuki, is it?

Brian Funk (50:11.846)

I think, no that's fine, Suzuki, okay maybe. Maybe Suzuki, Yamaha, somebody that also makes motorcycles.

Tom Cosm (50:20.377)

Wow.

Tom Cosm (50:24.602)

Yeah, yeah, love that, Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:26.182)

Not Harley Davidson though. Definitely not them. I see it's cool to know that this journey has been happening for so long and all this back and forth and also just to see that you guys have involved the community a bit to help develop it.

Tom Cosm (50:31.226)

Play some chords while you're shooting down the road at 200 miles per hour.

Tom Cosm (50:52.738)

Hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (50:54.534)

putting it out there at first and getting that feedback.

Tom Cosm (50:59.34)

Yeah, it's a big deal for me as well, you know, I mean, you know what I do and it's the same as you. It's just big part of my life was talking to people. Yeah.

Brian Funk (51:08.29)

I mean like your mega sets that you've made in the past, those are like, there's a lot of community influence in those and based on things that people have actually included.

Tom Cosm (51:18.04)

Yeah, so I think that's that's once once once we started selling them It's quite nice because I kind of moved moved kind of more away from that. I guess Mmm manager role

And I started, you know, we didn't start the community, like the community started the community. We were doing things on Patreon. We did have like chats and stuff and lots of comments, but a discord popped up within about two or three days after people started getting orchids. Really, really, really nice, nice, nice human.

Because I got in touch, like, well, and I think he thought I was going to say like, you can't do this, our lawyers are going to take you down. But I was just like, wow, good on you. This is awesome. When you get a community to build, they basically built how they want to interact with each other, how they want to interact with us, how they want to share their feedback, how they want to share their complaints, things like that. I think that's it from a company perspective that you can't ask for much more.

we can't ask for better. And so we just went, cool, we're going to move in here. We're going to come in here, and we've got our support agents are in there every day. I'm in there every other day, kind of interacting with people. And it's not just like, hey, I have a problem. Here's a solution. We've got one person on our staff who does support Crash Gothic.

and they post their own jams, they post their own weird little things, they make their own little adapters out of Arduino Pi if MIDI isn't working into this device and it will release instructions on how other people can do this. And I think that's just so important to me. I mean, we've got this instrument and it's cool and it's mysterious and stuff, but you

Tom Cosm (53:05.742)

We do have a community where people can interact with me and some others and anything that gets said or suggestions they do get listened to, you know? And we do have big internal discussions where we talk about, you know, this is what people want, you know? Or 10 people have requested this in a week and we go, we better put that on the list then, you know? So, yeah, it's good. It means a lot to me to have that. I think it's the right way to do it.

Brian Funk (53:30.83)

Yeah.

that's a relationship.

Tom Cosm (53:34.904)

That's what I want. That's what I want if I bought a product and I and it was quite a new concept I want to go on the discord I want to talk to the people who made it and be like well Did you think about this and you know here's some weird thing? You know as somebody who's made like max of life stuff Having people come come to me

I'll make something for a specific purpose that I made it for and I'll put it out to the public and then I'll get somebody coming and saying, hey, I've just used this device in a completely different way than I intended to do this amazing art. And it's a way I would have never conceived that this thing that I made would be used for. And I just get blown away by that. I think that's absolutely amazing. And I'm looking forward to that sort of stuff happening with Orchid, kind of customers and users.

Community coming coming to me and going look at what we've figured out how to do with this thing that you've built and it's something that None of us have even imagined possible that I want that I want that buzz. That's a good one. Yeah

Brian Funk (54:36.973)

Hmm. I would expect you're get plenty of that.

Tom Cosm (54:42.126)

Yeah, I think so. What we're seeing now is people starting to post some pretty advanced stuff. The first few months it was cool chord progressions and little jams and stuff, but now people have had it for a couple of months and they're really getting their chops. So I think it's going to be an exciting time for us.

Brian Funk (55:02.265)

Yeah, it seems like something you learn to play, like you said. You get used to how it works and all of that, which is a nice quality in an instrument that you can grow with it and evolve your playing and bring it in new ways. Have you found any kind of...

creative parallels to music songwriting and developing and even like the managing side of stuff. Do you notice any kind of maybe some of those skills or many maybe even like contrasts as well to those two processes?

Tom Cosm (55:45.826)

I mean I would say my particular brain in the way it approaches music not just approaches creating but listening to music is very analytical I like patterns, pattern recognition, I like splitting things up in my mind even if it's completely wrong I do it anyway and I get a joy out of it so when I listen to music and you know I listen to the rhythms and I listen to the intervals and everything so I think that

I think years of doing that has potentially helped me.

in my journey of being more hands-on, embedded, using electronics, building hardware things, just kind of electrical engineering type stuff, know, I mean, it's still just waveforms, you know, so it's kind of like the relationship and how resistors and capacitors and everything works. think I picked that up a little bit quicker than I would have if I hadn't been so into the technicality of music. I was specifically trained as a jazz musician, so I like to think about relationships and ratios.

rather than sight reading music and playing it. I was saying this the other night during one of our director meetings is that there are a few problems leading up to the drop, not problems, but there are a few situations where some really fast creative thinking was needed to problem solve and come up with a solution. And that kind of...

That kind of zone, if I'm in that zone, I've got 24 hours to figure out how we can solve this really complex problem, which has never been solved before. And that, I get the same sort of brain juice going on as when I'm writing really good music that I'm happy with. They're quite adjacent. I know what both feels like. I mean, they're not exactly the same, but I can get a lot of the satisfaction that I'm lacking from writing music at the moment from doing really creative problem solving. So I think, again, I think

Tom Cosm (57:46.46)

I think that that's helped me. Yeah Those are the two that spring to mind. I don't know if that's exactly the answer you're looking for but

Brian Funk (57:56.268)

I'm just curious. I could see how you would be a good guy in that situation 24 hours. Like, okay, we got to really figure something out. Yeah.

Tom Cosm (58:05.786)

Yeah, I do like that. I do like that. Yeah. I like it when it happens and then I have time to cool down before it happens again. When it happens back to back to back, I'll still give it everything, but I might need a couple of days of sitting out in the nature after that.

Brian Funk (58:23.661)

Yeah, well, I bet. I bet there's a lot of long hours indoors with who knows machines and trying to figure that out.

Tom Cosm (58:31.832)

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. After this I will be just shooting outside and sitting on the couch in the sun for 10 minutes before I jump back into my next meeting. So I'm doing my best. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:41.763)

Yeah. that's good. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really awesome thing. I'm excited. I got in on the most recent drop, so I'm waiting for one to come. I'm excited. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I love your work. I love Tame Impala, what Kevin does musically. So I mean, this is just like an obvious one for me to pick this up.

Tom Cosm (58:54.603)

you're going awesome. Nice, nice.

Brian Funk (59:09.059)

I'm sure I'm gonna be having a ton of fun. And I love that, I like to work really fast. I've been finding that probably like 80 % of a song or an idea happens really quick. But that only happens if I'm really just letting go, I'm not overthinking things, I'm not trying to be clever, just letting it happen.

Tom Cosm (59:09.114)

Cool.

Tom Cosm (59:14.03)

Mm.

Tom Cosm (59:21.582)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tom Cosm (59:32.511)

Mmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (59:34.159)

Things like this that get me there faster are right up my alley. the sounds, of course, I'm loving the sound of these synth engines. So I think I'm going to be pretty happy myself.

Tom Cosm (59:44.259)

Hmm.

Tom Cosm (59:49.698)

Are you going to a a do a rundown on you on your channel do you think? You might have to yeah I'll watch it.

Brian Funk (59:55.491)

I might have to, you know? Even just to promote this episode of the podcast. But I could foresee it being something that I used to help get ideas going and make weird sounds and just have fun with it.

Tom Cosm (01:00:10.682)

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, as I said, you can just you can just have it next to you on your bed and throw it in the like, you can take it out and have a picnic or whatever, you know, that's the cool thing. And there's no screens on it.

Brian Funk (01:00:24.28)

Yeah, that's what I'm loving about, yeah, like move, you know, like that's my favorite part about it is I can just carry it around and just.

not have to be, it's not a big serious event with things like this, you know? Even though I've got everything set up and it's not really much effort to turn it all on, but it is, it's kind of like, okay, now I'm doing this, I'm going here. Kind of like you said with the time, you feel like, all right, I'm settling into an entire new episode of the day, so.

Tom Cosm (01:00:48.002)

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (01:01:02.137)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk (01:01:05.462)

Yeah, sometimes that feels overwhelming.

Tom Cosm (01:01:10.194)

Yeah, yeah, and I think it's it's Being able to go outside, you know, like with it with the laptop You're pretty much restricted on a sunny day, you know I've done a few sessions where I've gone and sat under a tree with the laptop and it's okay But it's just it's not it's not really made for outside

But being able to take you know a move I like taking the move and the awkward I think they're very complimentary things And just those two things and I can just go anywhere, you know, and it's just I don't all of a sudden Unless it's raining the world is completely open to to creative ideas

And that's a big thing for me, you know. I like my studio, I like my white walls and my square room and all my things, you know, it's even just for the contrast, you know. If you can go sit on a cliff or go look at an ocean or even just get some grass under your feet, you know, it does change things, you know. You get some perspective on what you're up to with your own journey, for me, in my opinion.

Brian Funk (01:02:17.468)

I totally agree, getting outside, whether it's a guitar or... The computer is still the computer. It's not this... It's the screen. It's... I mean, love that you can still do it, right? You can take it out there, but it is still this electronic, digital, kind of weird thing that pulls you out of those, like, nature moments a little bit.

Tom Cosm (01:02:32.516)

Mm.

Tom Cosm (01:02:40.409)

Yeah.

Tom Cosm (01:02:45.452)

Yeah, you've got a 16 by 9 illuminated light just beaming into your face constantly. You tend to miss the birds over there or the waves over there.

Brian Funk (01:02:49.955)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:02:54.976)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, because you have to look at it like these other things you can kind of look around.

Tom Cosm (01:03:00.549)

Yeah, that's it. That's it. And that's again, that's, you know, a big part of the, I'll show it one more time. The big part of the design is, know, you can put one hand here and one hand here, and then you can just look around, you know, like you can touch and feel everything. You don't have to move your hands from their position at all. They just, they just stay there. you know, it takes a few sessions to know where everything is, but it's a big part of it for me. It means you can shut your eyes as well, you know.

I mean can't sit at my computer in Ableton Live and just shut my eyes for two minutes while I'm designing a sound. I mean I could and I probably will now just for fun.

Brian Funk (01:03:32.29)

Not really.

Brian Funk (01:03:37.09)

Yeah, that'll be the next experiment blindfolded sound design.

Tom Cosm (01:03:41.208)

Yeah, imagine that, like the Sound Design Olympics, they kind of, yeah, rifted it like this, or...

Brian Funk (01:03:49.433)

Yeah. Anything to keep the creative juices flowing. This is awesome, Tom. I'm really happy you're doing it. And I'm happy it's receiving such good feedback. And I'm happy for you to see the joy you're experiencing and seeing this thing come to life.

Tom Cosm (01:04:05.434)

Thank you, man.

Brian Funk (01:04:13.796)

It's a cool chapter in your journey as an artist. what's even cooler is like so much of your journey, it's going to be part of other people's too.

Tom Cosm (01:04:24.014)

Yeah, yeah. Thank you very much. Yeah, no, it's a really nice thing to say and I appreciate it greatly. Yeah. Thank you.

Brian Funk (01:04:30.19)

That's true. No exaggeration. like I told you in the beginning, I really do appreciate everything you've done and how it's helped me just see things differently musically and kind of welcomed me into this world of like, hey, you can be just as expressive with this stuff as you could with anything. Powerful message and big impact on me at least, I'll tell you.

Tom Cosm (01:04:58.18)

Good, good. That makes me very, very happy.

Brian Funk (01:05:02.5)

So we can send people for the orchid telepathicinstruments.com. Hopefully we've still got some left by the time this hits.

Tom Cosm (01:05:08.312)

Yeah, yeah, we got, we got them in... I know we've got some in stock. Yeah, yeah, like we didn't, we're not trying, we're not going for scarcity or anything this time. They will sell out. Like we got a lot made, but we didn't get infinite made. So they will, they will sell out, but they're still in there and they'll be, they'll be in there for a while. Just, it's not my area, but I've seen, I've seen the sales and you know, you've got a bit of time.

telepathicinstruments.com if you want to buy one telepathic instruments on Instagram if you want to see people using them in awesome ways Come join our discord search for telepathic instruments discord if you want to come and chat with me and the others and just join like I would like to say one of the least toxic communities I've ever Been part of on the internet. It's just a really good hosting place Even if you don't own an orchid come and come and talk music with us and yeah get involved

What else? I should have a list of links. should show... I mean it's 2026. you want something, just type in telepathic instruments and the thing and you'll get it.

Brian Funk (01:06:07.438)

Sure, your link, Cozum.co.

Brian Funk (01:06:14.594)

Yeah, yeah, you're easy to find too. But all this will be in the show notes for everyone so they can get to it nice and easy.

Tom Cosm (01:06:20.505)

cool. Cool. I'm glad. I'm glad you're onto it.

Brian Funk (01:06:25.656)

Yeah. Thanks so much for taking the time to do this. It's great to have a chance to talk to you. Yeah, you know, I really do appreciate it. And thank you. And thank you to the listeners for tuning in.

Tom Cosm (01:06:29.262)

No worries, absolute pleasure.

Mellow Drums
Ableton Live Pack

Mellow Drums is an Ableton Live Pack designed for those moments when your music calls for something a little more relaxed, instead of huge in your face drums. This collection is all about providing subdued, quiet, and tasteful drums that can hold down the beat without taking over the song.

It's a collection of Drum Samples and Drum Racks with a more relaxed, laid back feel.

• 680 Samples

• 5 Drum Racks

• 60 Drum Presets

There are 3 acoustic Drum Racks and 2 hybrid electro/acoustic Drum Racks. The sounds cover a wide range of sounds suitable for most musical genres, especially when you want things to be a little more low-key.

Ableton Live Presets require Live 11.3 Intro or Above. Samples can be used with any software or hardware.

Get the Vibe Right!

Meet The Mellow Drum Racks

Mellow Drums contains a total of 680 drum samples. You’ll find multi-sampled acoustic drums and cymbals, synthesized and sampled electronic drums, and unusual percussion made from everyday sounds and objects. I’ve collected these samples into 5 powerful Drum Rack presets. Here’s a bit about them.

Two Electronic/Hybrid Kits: The pack features "Little Electro Drums" and "Captain Quirk Drums", which allow for fun combinations of acoustic and electro-type sounds.

Each feature 16 different drums, with 16 sounds in each pad, totaling 256 samples in that single kit. Select the sounds you want and mix and match them to easily create new kits. Experiment with the Random button to instantly create a new drum kit!

Three Acoustic Kits: These include "David's Drums," a multi-sampled, acoustic kit played softly with sticks and mallets. "Some Good Evil Drums," which are dry and deadened with Quesadilla drum pads. "Kitchen Drums," which were recorded in my kitchen and have a little more room atmosphere and space.

Each of the acoustic Drum Racks contain multi-sampled pads that play back different samples every time they are played. The results are beautifully responsive and natural sounding mellow drums.

55 Drum Presets: Every Cell on the Drum Racks is also saved as an individual preset. This allows you to mix and match elements from different kits to create your own unique drums. Endless possibilities of mellow drum sounds!

Hear Mellow Drums in Action

Mellow Drums Ableton Live Pack is your essential toolkit for laid-back rhythm design. Get the perfect vibe every time!

This episode is sponsored by Baby Audio and their new plug-in Tekno!
Save 15% with the code: MPP15 - https://babyaud.io/tekno 

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Links:

• Soap Voice Cleaner - https://www.musehub.com/plugin/soap-voice-cleaner

• Moon Tower - https://thisismoontower.com

• Muse Hub - https://www.musehub.com

• Audacity - https://www.musehub.com/app/audacity

• Abberant DSP - https://aberrantdsp.com

• Beat Link Trigger - https://github.com/Deep-Symmetry/beat-link-trigger

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

• This episode was edited by Animus Invidious of PerforModule - https://performodule.com/

Thank you for listening. 

*Edit - in the show I mistakenly mentioned Sony's involvement in Audacity. I was confusing Audacity with Acid, which was at one time owned by Sony. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:02.121)

Okay, Tom, welcome to the Music Production Podcast. Good to have you.

Tom Carpenter (00:03.567)

All right.

Tom Carpenter (00:08.473)

Thanks for having me, Brian. Excited to be doing this today.

Brian Funk (00:11.642)

Yeah, I'm excited to talk to you too. It's been nice to get to know you for a few minutes before we started and hearing about some of the work you're doing.

Tom Carpenter (00:18.733)

Likewise, yeah, I'm a fan of the podcast, so I'm very honored to be asked to come on.

Brian Funk (00:25.466)

Yeah, cool. I think I'd like to tell people exactly what you're doing right now, because I think that's pretty fun right now. You're not at home.

Tom Carpenter (00:32.727)

Yeah. No, I'm not at home. I was telling you before we hit the record button here, I'm slightly embarrassed having watched the other Brian Funk podcast to not have my cool synthesizer set up behind me like yourself. I am in a hotel right now. I am on tour at the moment with my band.

Brian Funk (00:56.58)

very exciting and it's I think it's kind of a cool indication of like some of what you're doing because of course you've got the Soap Audio company with the voice cleaner plug-in that's doing really well playing in a band producing music on your own you're doing a lot of different things at once to make this all work I think that's how the dream works these days is we find lots of different avenues to pursue the music and the art and the love of it

Tom Carpenter (01:25.421)

Yeah, certainly. And yeah, I can talk for a while about my, you the joy I grab from every little different angle of that. But specifically being on the road here, it's always a joy. We haven't, the band hasn't been on the road for about a year and a half now, and we're in about week three of this current tour. So starting to miss home a little bit, but we're about a week and a half out. So it'll be great. can go back home and hug all my microphones and...

get back to a decent listening environment. playing on stage every night is its own joy.

Brian Funk (02:02.896)

Yeah, and you guys are, you said an indie electronic three piece.

Tom Carpenter (02:07.541)

Indie electronic three piece. I said right before, yeah, don't want to sound too self congratulatory because this is not where we've achieved. But our North Star, as it were, of what we want to sound like is if the killers were to ever work with Daft Punk. So we've got the love for the classic drum machines and all the Ed Banger stuff. If we would talk about like, Sebastian and Mr. Wazzo, Daft Punk, DJ Mehdi, Justice.

Oofy, all that kind of like 12-bit aliasing, way too side chains, limited as heck sounds mixed with some of those like alt-rock guitars and also all three of us in the band are very big fans of pop music and well-written songs. We talk about, know, till the cows come home, you can have really experimental...

groundbreaking sounds and mixtures that haven't been done. But to us, what really pushes it across the edge into fantastic is when you've got that great song that you're producing.

Brian Funk (03:19.29)

Yeah, a song is usually the king. I it doesn't matter how you dress it. A good song is a good song.

Tom Carpenter (03:22.287)

The longest king. Yeah. Which is, I say is a knob-turner. So I'm not necessarily a lyricist, but that is, you know, king.

Brian Funk (03:37.084)

So I want to ask you a little bit about how you guys work the band because I told you I play in a three piece garage rock band. I play the guitar and sing, bass player and he sings and drummer and he even sings sometimes too. And we have very defined roles, right? Now, anytime I've jammed with people electronically, I've got...

Tom Carpenter (03:51.183)

Certainly. Yes.

Brian Funk (03:58.936)

Ableton live open and I can be everything right I can be the drummer I can be the lead synth I could be whatever I want and a lot of the You know beginning phases is total chaos because that's what everyone's doing everyone's used to doing everything so now we're working together Do you guys have defined roles that you play or is it a song by song? How do you manage? What are you guys doing because one person these days can easily take over?

Tom Carpenter (04:21.135)

Certainly.

Yeah, I mean, I will say one thing that we're proud of is that on this current rig that we're set up on, we are using Ableton, but Ableton is only used as a brain for which we send out program changes and MIDI out to our external gear. So we aren't using Ableton for tracks or anything like that. What we have going is I am doing the bass and the rhythm. And then we've got Devin, who's doing more of the harmony.

and some of the melody type stuff and we've got Jacob who is doing the lead vocal and some of the lead guitar work. we've got as far as gear on stage we've got a Moog Sub 37, an X DJ, a single X DJ, the ones that are pretty much CDJs, and two MIDI controllers, an Axe FX 3 guitar processor, and the brain of our rig which is

built around a MOTU Ultralight MK3. And to really nerd out on what's going on, we are using a open source software called Beat Link Trigger that is hijacking some of the ethernet connections that would normally be used intra pioneer here to be able to share BPM and hot cue information and loop and all that stuff.

between two Pioneer devices. These awesome people that are developing this tool called Beat Link Trigger have opened up the kind of walled garden that is Pioneer so that you can start using that. I mean, there's a lot of information there in various different ways. So now we've got Hot Cues on the XDJ being able to send us to Ableton Locators. We've got Ableton Link, which is...

Tom Carpenter (06:20.873)

slave basically to the master tempo fader on the XDJ. So we're able to loop or speed songs up or slow sections down or anything like that. Keep things very jammy and very modular. And then we've got Ableton interfacing with the Axe FX to send program changes for our guitars and whatnot. I'm also playing bass.

on stage along with the Moog Sub-37. We've got Ableton Drum Rack set up for the SPD. We've got the MPKs for the different sounds that are either sampled or you you gotta keep the sense low overhead for live performance. Yeah, the setup is, it's a lot of fun. We've spent a long time dialing it in.

And like you were saying, the organization of it is really so that we can do those things that we have struggled to do in the past when it's kind of been a guy doing tracks with an APC-40 and then a guy playing guitar on top of that. And that's the jamming. Like maybe tonight we want to play the song faster. Maybe we want to loop this chorus five times. Maybe we want to do the end of the set, do that loop at Nazium, something like that.

Brian Funk (07:43.26)

So you got some flexibility then. You can actually just kind of communicate it with the other members,

Tom Carpenter (07:50.763)

Yeah, yeah, it's much more, it's a lot of people turning a lot of different knobs on stage and, and it's a lot of fun.

Brian Funk (07:57.212)

huh. Yeah, that sounds cool. It sounds pretty technical with especially like hijacking the pioneer stuff and being able to convert that in.

Tom Carpenter (08:09.443)

Yeah, it definitely took some trial and error to get that going. Again, the Beat Link Trigger team is awesome. If you've seen any videos, they're starting to go viral right now of like Deadmau5 using a CDJ to play Skyrim on like his Xbox. It's that same. It's silly. But you can use that. You can hijack the information.

Brian Funk (08:30.734)

Okay.

Tom Carpenter (08:39.119)

Pioneer Link information. And hijack sounds like a dirty word. It's really just taking that information and using it in a different purpose.

Brian Funk (08:48.742)

Hmm. So that, but it's converting it into, guess, like a language everything else can understand.

Tom Carpenter (08:55.149)

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Kind of intro program.

Brian Funk (09:00.612)

I have to imagine this did not happen like that the first time you guys got together. Even when I play by myself with my MIDI controllers in Ableton, Live, and whatever, it's like this living organism that is always changing.

Tom Carpenter (09:07.223)

No.

Tom Carpenter (09:20.015)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (09:20.31)

So hearing something like that might be a little intimidating maybe for somebody that's thinking about getting into it, but it's one of the things I always say is like, just start as simple as possible. I'm kind of curious where you guys began with it.

Tom Carpenter (09:31.671)

Certainly

Tom Carpenter (09:36.077)

Yeah, well, we always wanted, so we've been a band for about 10 years now. And the name of the band is Moon Tower. And we started off, it's like that Linklater movie, Dazed and Confused. We were college kids, they say at the end of the movie, party at the Moon Tower. And we wanted to throw these Moon Tower parties. were at USC, were dumb college kids. And we...

Brian Funk (09:49.168)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (09:53.83)

Okay, cool.

Tom Carpenter (10:02.607)

weren't worried about releasing music or trying to promote music or anything like that. We just moreover wanted to put on an awesome electronic show, sync up lights with it, and do things, you know, interestingly. And I was an Ableton nerd and also a lighting nerd and something like that. But when we started, it was as simple as I had in APC 40. We knew that we wanted to get some guitars going. So we kind of just got a four on the floor.

a microphone, a couple guitars and started jamming together before we knew it. We started building out songs and put that show together. Moreover, to say, what's the best show we can do? What's the best jam that we can really get out of this moment? Not as much focused on what's going to be the best thing to drive Spotify or the best way to represent this album that's finished.

It was more about the love of the live performance at the get-go.

Brian Funk (11:04.72)

That's cool. And that speaks to what you can do with electronic based music these days. Cause it, I think, you know, for the most part, it's been like, we've recorded the song, we've produced the song, and now we have to figure out how to get it into the live situation. But you guys are jamming, writing the song more like a real band does, like a normal like rock kind of thing.

Tom Carpenter (11:23.439)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (11:29.923)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (11:31.6)

you play it out for a while then maybe you might go back to record it.

Tom Carpenter (11:35.321)

Certainly, and I mean the music came out and then we played again in the way. So there is that, you do want to get on a train at a certain point in time. But yeah, I think the ethos of it has always been live-centric. I'm excited about what we're doing right now on this tour. We're playing our album that has yet to come out. It's locked and playing that in full every night.

Brian Funk (11:40.539)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (12:04.683)

So doing a little bit more like we did in college where it was, you don't necessarily know the music if you're coming to the show, if you happen to be a fan, you may not hear exactly the stuff you've heard in the past, but it lets us all kind of live in the moment a little bit more. And it's been really rewarding. We couldn't be prouder of this new album.

Brian Funk (12:27.804)

So it's getting the real treatment in front of a crowd. Yeah, that sounds like a great time. I'm just so happy these days we can do that, that kind of stuff and really play these instruments like instruments. Like we can actually make this kind of music without it having to be.

Tom Carpenter (12:31.319)

Yeah, a little bit early too. So, it's fun.

Tom Carpenter (12:43.855)

very much.

Brian Funk (12:52.108)

so rigid and kind of maybe, you know, like just pressing play and we're going.

Tom Carpenter (12:57.421)

Yeah, certainly. And I mean, that's the way, even when we're not on stage in the studio, that I think we prefer to think about music creation. Be it, have a song that was written on acoustic guitar and now we want to produce it out, or we have kind of a loop or a jam or something like that going more in the box and we want to write to that. I the idea is that we want to be more of gardeners rather than...

Let's stay rigid here. It's a... And then afterward, we do end up, you know, doing the subtraction process to try and whittle down what was sometimes a long thing or sometimes bloated into, like I was saying, the most well-written song inside of that. And I have to shout out Devon Walsh and Jacob Berger, my two other band members who are invaluable members of the creation process. It's all three of us in all of

Brian Funk (13:28.54)

Hmm.

Tom Carpenter (13:55.865)

the Moon Tower stuff.

Brian Funk (13:57.82)

Well, playing together 10 years, I mean, I could tell you from experience how hard it is to keep a band together for a bazillion reasons. So to be able to do that definitely speaks to the bond.

Tom Carpenter (14:09.433)

You know, believe it or not, we've been playing together and we've been living together. were roommates for about 10 years now. So we're closer to an old married couple than we are a band. I guess an old married throuple. Yeah.

Brian Funk (14:14.361)

yeah.

Brian Funk (14:19.066)

Yeah, right. Well, I guess that's nice when it's time to rehearse and practice and work things out. Like, what are you doing? You're just watching TV? All right, come on.

Tom Carpenter (14:28.45)

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, we don't have a living room. have a studio. yeah, totally.

Brian Funk (14:35.612)

Hmm. That's very cool. Yeah. You use the same term, gardener. That's how I would think about it. The way I had my electronic setup going was I'm like playing these ideas and songs and it's not so much like I have to really write them. I can just play them and nurture them and kind of, you know, trim the little outgrowths here and there and let things blossom naturally.

Tom Carpenter (15:01.569)

Yeah. And I mean, now with modern DAWs and whatnot, we have such an ability to achieve perfection. And I do love music. I mean, I listen to a lot of industrial stuff that's very jagged edges and it can be almost abrasive in how perfect it is. And that's great. But also so much of the music that I return to year after year and I think a lot of people return to is loved because it was

capturing of a moment and it was kind of garden that wasn't it wasn't perfected to the point of inhumanity

Brian Funk (15:39.94)

Yeah, I agree. think that's interesting stuff and you can bring you back to listen again. how'd you hear how that went that way? that's funny.

Tom Carpenter (15:44.793)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (15:49.549)

Yeah, certainly. What's your favorite type of music to listen to,

Brian Funk (15:54.666)

man, that's tough. It depends on the mood, I guess.

Tom Carpenter (15:58.603)

I know, when someone asks that question you forget every band you've ever listened to. Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:02.62)

Yeah, right. I guess I'm probably most grounded in like the stuff I grew up in, like rock, know, alternative rock and 60s rock and things like that, 90s, 60s. um, but as I've gotten older, I've gotten a lot more into like technology and

Tom Carpenter (16:15.022)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (16:25.347)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:25.36)

you know, synthesizers, drum machines and stuff. Stuff that I thought as a teenager was like so uncool. But I think in the nineties it was kind of uncool in a lot of ways. Maybe like you like nine inch nails or something, but everything else that used a synth was kind of corny by then. I guess the eighties sort of did that to it. But it wasn't long before I started to realize like a lot of the music I like has that stuff in it. Even though I

Tom Carpenter (16:32.015)

Certainly.

Tom Carpenter (16:37.006)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (16:48.025)

Sure. Yeah.

Brian Funk (16:55.384)

I I don't like drum machines or I think I don't like synthesizers. I'm like, that's a synthesizer right there that I thought was like a guitar or something. You know, that kind of the way you are as a kid, you put these like lines in the sand for no reason other than just to have an identity.

Tom Carpenter (17:09.207)

certainly. Yeah, of course. Yeah, you gotta be rock and roll with it. I think I've the same ilk for a long, long time.

Brian Funk (17:15.738)

Yeah, right.

Hmm. Yeah, that's, that leads me to now where I, I kind of never know where I'm going to go the next time I make something. And that's, it's a lot of fun that way, but therein also lies the issue too, because when I was younger, just playing very specific kind of music, that's so many decisions were already ruled out. It was like, I'm going to play my electric guitar. It's going to be loud and it's going to be quiet and loud and

Tom Carpenter (17:30.126)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (17:41.996)

Sure.

Brian Funk (17:48.08)

That was it, but now when it's like, I can make like a spacey ambient thing, or I can make like acoustic singer songwriter, you know, sometimes that's paralyzing.

Tom Carpenter (17:53.86)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (17:58.083)

Totally. It is daunting sometimes. I mean, it's daunting on both sides having two stricks of a walled garden in which to create. it can be, I think I agree with you, even more paralyzing when you have the entirety of every sound ever recorded and you've got every mode of synthesis to create anything in your brain to find out, am I going to do here?

Brian Funk (18:24.124)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (18:29.412)

Right. One of my favorite, probably my favorite band is the Beatles. And I think about them and how much they experimented and all these things they tried, but they were sort of exposed to it little by little, I think, you know, looking back, they even talk about chords, like, somebody knows this chords. We took the bus over across town and learn it. but we now we get everything at once. You know, if you

Tom Carpenter (18:30.446)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (18:33.945)

Certainly.

Tom Carpenter (18:39.245)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (18:48.899)

Yeah, they do.

Tom Carpenter (18:52.793)

I've heard that one. Yeah.

Brian Funk (18:58.736)

Download any DAW, you've got everything. So it's like, where do I start?

Tom Carpenter (19:03.459)

Well, you've also with the Beatles, the history of the Beatles is the history of music technology in lot of ways. They didn't have a lot of the, a lot of the tools that we rely upon. mean, pre DSP, when we're just talking about signal processing in general, it was invented for the Beatles, you know, for a specific use case. I think the story on the, on the ADT, the automatic double tracker was

Brian Funk (19:11.066)

Mm. Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (19:32.727)

John Lennon didn't want to record a double of his own voice, so they had to invent a style of tape modulation to be able to emulate that and be it new types of saturation or double tracking or ways of recreating sounds. It's so fun to go through the Beatles discography and I find it so inspiring every time because it's the history of the tools.

Brian Funk (20:02.556)

Yeah, and a lot of those new tools when they came out they were like, let's give them to the Beatles like Bob Mogue is showing up with synthesizers and Fenders got some new stuff. They just send it to the Beatles and let's see what they do and Yeah, they've we got it all at once

Tom Carpenter (20:09.411)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (20:20.119)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (20:24.975)

We got it all at once. It's daunting. yeah, it's a lot trying to deal with of that.

Brian Funk (20:33.532)

Not complaining though, I love it. It's such a great time. I do feel thankful though that I, when I grew up, like I was a teenager in the nineties and I had a four track cassette recorder. That was like a big deal when I got that thing. And all I had was a mic and a guitar though, you know? So it was so limiting, but still felt like the whole universe opened up because now I can layer tracks. Wow.

Tom Carpenter (20:42.457)

Mm-hmm.

Tom Carpenter (20:51.5)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (20:59.683)

Certainly. mean, and then you advance all the way through to modern technology and we've got the best recreation that we can possibly achieve right now of these digitized sounds. And then I go back, like on this most recent record, all of the individual stems, kind of bar none, I...

put through what you're saying, like a Tascam 246 6-track recorder from 1984, just so can get like a little bit of that saturation or that sound. Yeah, degradation, just a little bit of something in that imperfection.

Brian Funk (21:34.14)

channel gain and all like yeah

Brian Funk (21:43.526)

Did you run them onto the tape or just through the electronics? Yeah, cool.

Tom Carpenter (21:46.317)

Onto the tape. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, onto the tape and played it back and whatnot and got to get a little bit wobbly with the... That specific model has a really nice sounding pitch up and down. Yeah, it's fun. It's a very sound, like, in sound right now. I feel like that. Taskam saturation's very in vogue. So I bought it...

Brian Funk (22:00.406)

Mm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (22:08.507)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (22:14.199)

off Craig's lists and restored it and what not just to see what all the fuss was about and sure as heck it sounds pretty great. Those transformers and everything are really awesome.

Brian Funk (22:27.996)

Yeah, I'm a big fan of that kind of stuff. I have a Tascam 388, which is an eight track, which I absolutely love, but also is temperamental. I mean, some days it's just making so much noise and I have no idea why. And then the next day...

Tom Carpenter (22:46.721)

I will say one of the reasons why I had to do individual stems on a lot of the stuff, I mean I would send buses, but two of the six tracks on my 246 pretty much gave out and I got in there with a multimeter and tried to solder it back to life. I'm not sure exactly, I will get back, I will get to the bottom of it once I get back from tour here, but...

Brian Funk (23:12.763)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (23:13.261)

Yeah, I'm using like channel 1 as L and channel 4 as R. And it's just a, it's a six track machine, but it might as well be a stereo warmer. Yeah.

Brian Funk (23:22.842)

Yeah, I hear you. I've done the same thing with mine. Like, I don't know what's wrong with track one, but let's just skip it. Yep. But yeah, sometimes it is just nice to have the plugins because they don't do that. And if they do, it's a feature, you know?

Tom Carpenter (23:28.515)

Yep, move on. Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (23:40.225)

It is. It is. mean, lot of my favorite, a lot of my go-to plugins these days are the ones like SketchCassette, where you've got some of that emulation of those, yeah, dropouts and that, yeah, algorithmic imperfection.

Brian Funk (23:49.53)

Yes, it's a really cool one. Yeah.

Brian Funk (24:02.106)

That's a really cool one also just visually too. I just love the look, just penciled kind of thing. Yeah, they've got a bunch of them I like a lot. One of them makes you sound like an MP3 kind of, which I can't believe I've, it might be lossy, something like that. I'm not sure, it's aberrant though. It has like,

Tom Carpenter (24:05.367)

Yeah, love their, a bare-end DSP does really good work.

Tom Carpenter (24:19.181)

Lost him.

Or has lost he good hurts.

Brian Funk (24:28.848)

you can kind of like draw on it.

Tom Carpenter (24:32.18)

Okay.

Brian Funk (24:34.36)

It makes it sound like I can't believe I want this sound ever because when like in the early 2000s when you were getting these like harsh digital sounds you're like, ugh, like what is this? But now it's just kind of fun to throw in there once in a while.

Tom Carpenter (24:51.001)

certainly. Yeah, no, we've come all the way, haven't we? I got an Instagram ad saying, like, recreate that classic sound of, like, bad A to D conversion from Pro Tools 2. It's like, all right, we're now, yeah, getting digital recreations of digital. It's funny. Maybe it's, I Googled it, maybe it's Digital-less? Nonetheless. Yeah.

Brian Funk (24:54.14)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (25:11.493)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (25:17.453)

there might be. I have like two or three of them. I really like their stuff.

Tom Carpenter (25:20.335)

We're all good.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of all the aberrant stuff. Also, D16 Plugging Group is one of my favorite ones these days.

Brian Funk (25:30.16)

Hmm, yeah, they those nice drum machines. Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (25:33.591)

Yeah, their rate reduction, think it's... shoot, what's it called? The rate reduction from D16, Decimort 2, has some of the best saturation and just really pleasant aliasing to me.

Brian Funk (25:46.491)

Mm.

Brian Funk (25:56.24)

DigiTales, that's the aberrant one I'm talking about. DigiTales. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you want to sound like garbagey digital from the early 2000s, that's your best bet.

Tom Carpenter (25:59.019)

Okay, right on. Here we go.

Tom Carpenter (26:06.317)

Thank

Tom Carpenter (26:09.645)

Yeah, it was cracking me up. Yeah, it's like if you don't, yeah, if you want a bad representation of your dynamic range and at the same time, I mean, that was one of the things I came to learn when I was a kid. As much as I really loved that, you know, the Daft Punk music and the French touch and the stuff that went around with that, you learn those were born out of necessity from the hardware tools at the time.

Brian Funk (26:18.725)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (26:37.167)

You've got the SB 1200 and people would sample the, uh, they would, they would speed up the record player play, play stuff unnecessarily fast and, uh, slow it back down inside of the box to expand that 10 second sampling time on floppy disk. And then you'd have aliasing built into the sound. that like both the, the sound of the aliasing and the 12 bit dynamic range of the SB 1200 is kind of the sound of French house. And then.

You just put the kick too loud, you get an Alesis 3630, which probably costs, you know, 42 bucks. I've got a few.

Brian Funk (27:12.444)

I one. I've had it since I bought it off eBay in like 2000. It was like already getting thrown out.

Tom Carpenter (27:18.857)

I think I read on, it's no longer called the same website, is it called Gearheads now? Yeah, Gearheads is calling it the, one of the more affordable door stops you can get is the 3688.

Brian Funk (27:25.524)

Yeah, yeah

Brian Funk (27:33.116)

It's not great. But it's got something. It definitely does.

Tom Carpenter (27:36.385)

It's not great.

When you want to do that pumped out, you listen to mixes sometimes on... I'm just harking on French house for some reason today. But you listen to some of those mixes and they aren't great mixes in the technical sense. They don't have great frequency range. They don't have a great representation. They're pretty thin. But they have that thing.

Those guys found the thing and I think a lot of the time what I think my fellow music makers and myself are looking for is that thing of the moment. And it takes so much discovering and digging to find that thing. A slam 3630 with a kick drum going too loud so it pumps can be a thing. Or like the strokes thing where you do the is this it? Let me put up two microphones and get the sound of the room and...

have it sound terrible but it sounds like the time that can be the thing or you can go the Quincy Jones route and you get the most beautiful recording, the best, most perfect mix and that could be the thing but yeah finding an identity inside of the mix inside your music production style is something I'm always looking for and I'm looking for tools that can help me do that

Brian Funk (29:03.364)

Yeah, having a vibe, a feel, atmosphere is I think more important than anything. Because you can clean something up that doesn't have it and it just sounds distant or sterile or something.

Tom Carpenter (29:06.713)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (29:17.582)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:24.398)

I think sometimes I think a lot of times when you just throw ideas at the wall and going with it, maybe it's because you're not thinking too hard. You're not trying to get everything perfect. You're just reacting to the last thing you did. It sometimes comes together almost easier where if you try to purposely do this stuff, it can be, it can be too calculated. And then it doesn't have the energy or the.

Tom Carpenter (29:45.038)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (29:52.236)

Whatever that magic touch is

Tom Carpenter (29:52.527)

It's like the gardening thing where you see what grows and then you find the beauty inside of it. you are trying to, think Eno has one of his cards for Oblique Strategies is shoot the arrow, the target around it. And I love that when it comes to kind of music production in general.

Brian Funk (29:58.978)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (30:18.588)

That's a good one. Yeah. Well, I think a big thing we spend too much time doing is aiming the arrow and then never shooting it.

Tom Carpenter (30:26.445)

Yeah, certainly. We're getting frustrated when you shoot the arrow at a target and it hits somewhere else and not appreciating it. At least the problem I run into, not painting with a broad brush here, is not appreciating it for what it is. If I heard that thing in my head trying to separate that thing that I was hearing from what's actually there. Yeah.

Brian Funk (30:38.192)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (30:48.152)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I read a really great book on this called, why greatness cannot be planned. The myth of the objective. And it comes from like an AI background. So they're talking about their AI programmers. And I think it's even already like a bit old, like 2016 or something like that. But they talk about how when you are purposely trying to get someplace that's.

Tom Carpenter (30:56.516)

Cool.

Tom Carpenter (31:04.505)

Sure.

Brian Funk (31:16.278)

often prevents you from getting someplace new and interesting. So when you're just shooting the arrow and painting the target around it, you've reached a spot you wouldn't have come to before. And now you will see new steps after that, that you wouldn't have seen if you were just trying to get to, you know, whatever point B was. Where there's a place you've already been and you already know what's going to happen. But when you get to that novel place.

Tom Carpenter (31:20.481)

certainly. Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (31:37.485)

Yeah, totally.

Brian Funk (31:44.794)

Now you're able to see it the next novel place a step away from that. And you kind of keep following these little stepping stones.

Tom Carpenter (31:52.85)

Yeah, totally. I love that. I think I've heard it said, I mean, we're both just repeating ways we've heard it said. Someone, I forget where, it was on a podcast, it might have been the Lex Threadman, talking, someone was speaking to chasing excitement without expectation. And at any given moment, choosing the route whenever you're given a choice in life or in creation.

Brian Funk (31:56.091)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (32:20.929)

choose whatever option offers even marginally more excitement to you. And if you are to do that without expectation and do that nobly, I think he was saying, then you can experience becoming, as Vonnegut says, experience becoming. Yeah.

Brian Funk (32:37.116)

Very similar.

Hmm. Yeah, it's a very similar concept to that book, actually. And it's helped me a lot with making music because now it's just like, let's and I don't mean like, let's see what happens. Like I don't have any direction. It's more like let's work with what happened. Maybe is a better way to put it like, we're here now. OK, now what can we do with that instead of, man, I don't want to be here. I wanted to be there.

Tom Carpenter (32:48.803)

Certainly.

Tom Carpenter (33:02.446)

Yeah.

Certainly.

Brian Funk (33:10.126)

And then it's frustrating.

Tom Carpenter (33:10.189)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It certainly can be. But there's so much beauty in it when you allow there to be.

Brian Funk (33:18.075)

Yeah.

Yup, yeah, and between that and just trying to see what I'm doing is more like a body of work or like breadcrumbs I'm leaving along the way instead of like, this must be my masterpiece now. don't think I've ever made anything good with that mindset. Now I will make a masterpiece.

Tom Carpenter (33:30.669)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (33:34.04)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (33:39.179)

No, it's... Yeah, it's really difficult. When you decide before it's your masterpiece that it will be your masterpiece, it almost becomes a self-fulfilling, what do you say, opposite of prophecy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:46.917)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (33:51.642)

Yep. Definitely.

Brian Funk (33:57.39)

So I'm curious now, if you choose, you know, this is we're talking like music creating, producing, but you're also in the DSP world of programming and creating tools now. I guess I'm wondering if there's, are there parallels? Are they different things? Because maybe this is a little more, I guess when I think of programming, think very.

Tom Carpenter (34:10.265)

third round.

Tom Carpenter (34:20.375)

I actually...

Brian Funk (34:23.702)

logic based and numbers and

Tom Carpenter (34:27.733)

It is.

I came to the want to get down to the bottom of DSP and learn programming from a love of music creation. I was always fascinated. I think it goes back to my dad took me to my first concert. It was Rush.

And Geddy Lee had all of those, you know, he's got the moogs on stage and whatnot. And he's turning knobs and you watch the studio footage of them and whatnot. And I was always fascinated by what the knob does. Why, when you turn that knob, it, if you turn that, it now sounds darker or it sounds this and that and the other. And now at this point...

I know that's the cutoff on a low pass filter and that's the resonance underneath it and we use those to be able to shape with subtractive synthesis what's going on on the Moog. But I really probably about six years ago started asking the question of well why does that do that when it comes to audio plugins and come to DAW digital audio

workstation work when we've when we've digitized what is a signal. What is that? What is that? That was that was a real thing that was pressure coming out of the air and frequency and amplitude. And what what happens then? Why why does that knob inside of the computer make it come back out of my speakers different?

Tom Carpenter (36:15.469)

when it's translated back into something that my ears are hearing. So it came from, I think, an innate curiosity. And that led me down the path of trying to figure out, well, the best way to learn is probably to do, in my opinion. So I started getting into really elementary juice development. And juice is a framework.

that is amazing and they've got a really amazing set of tutorials online and there's a lot of great classes and people and I started checking out textbooks from our local library on what is kind of digital signal processing for audio applications. And the more I got into it, the more I found this is, is, I'm.

deriving as much joy from creating the knob that is to be turned as I am from turning the knob. So it came from a very similar place of creation and it still offers me the same joy of creation. It is more binary in that I would say if I have a piece of modular gear and I am

plugging in wires in different places, I might end up with a beautiful mess. when you're writing inside of a programming language like C++ or Python, you're less, I guess, you can't really go down the messy route. It needs to be quite organized for you to be able to achieve anything. But the joy that I felt when I was able to use a plug-in that I wrote inside of my DAW,

was very similar to when I had spent four hours patching cables to get that particular kick drum out of my Pulsar 23. I love that kick drum to death, now I have a... That kick drum is mine, no one else has that. That exists in the moment. In same way, I know exactly why the numbers that were translated from the Fourier transform, Fourier transform...

Tom Carpenter (38:34.767)

then manipulated by me in the digital signal processing domain, and then were put back out to be waveforms again that are audible. That's mine, there's an accomplishment there. So that was kind of, hopefully that makes sense, that's a little bit of my villain origin story, that's how I got into plugin development.

Brian Funk (38:58.3)

Yeah, I can relate to that. Not so much in that actual programming in that way, but I've been creating like Ableton Live packs using instrument racks and drum racks, audio effect racks and the thought of like, how am going to make these macro knobs interact? What do I want to have control over? How much control over each one of those parameters do I want?

Tom Carpenter (39:09.572)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (39:23.107)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (39:23.396)

and how does that influence how I play the instrument? I find that really exciting and it's especially fun.

Tom Carpenter (39:31.533)

I think it's very, very similar. It's just in a different medium. I think that coding can be thought of as inherently prohibitively difficult to wrap your head around. With modern tools and with the amount of information there is out there and the wherewithal to kind of want to get into it, I think even if you want to start

Brian Funk (39:44.56)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (39:59.867)

at Ableton macros and go down to Max for live and then go into the Maybe I'm gonna write a low-pass filter or something like that. Try to get my wrap my head around What's going on there? I think it's just a little bit deeper down that rabbit hole and I think it's it's all in the act of Creating It's fun, it's very rewarding I encourage I encourage anyone to that would be curious

to give it a go.

Brian Funk (40:31.802)

Yeah, I could see that. And especially when you're going to apply it to your own music, too. That's got to be a lot of fun.

Tom Carpenter (40:38.605)

Yeah. So, I mean, I have tools that are, and this was how I started, I have plugins that are internal use only. They aren't out there. And I don't say that as being like, I have something that you can't have. I say that moreover as saying, it's very rewarding to me to say, I need to get this out of the sound. I need to juice the sound.

Well, I dialed in my own plugin that I use inside of Ableton that does what I need. And if it doesn't work exactly like I need, maybe I'll go down to the code and change that a little bit and re-export the plugin for my use. It's similar to patch cables or anything like that in my head.

Brian Funk (41:33.178)

Hmm, almost like I could get a different EQ, a different console emulation, or I can go in there and I know I want this kind of character to the sound.

Tom Carpenter (41:38.669)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (41:46.457)

Computer music, although we do have so many tools inside of the DAWs, all of them ship with this massive suite of what seems like everything, in my head, computer music is very nascent genre. There's a lot of room in there for exploring and creating new things and being messy in the same way that

Like I was saying just to bring it back if they created an ADT so that John Lennon could have a new sound on his vocal well someone had to think of an ADT and then get out some some tape machine and make it wobble and this and that and then they put it inside of Abbey Rhodes and they used it to create some hit records, so I think there are a lot of tools that are yet to be made and

There are developers that are doing really amazing things all the time. But I am inspired every time I go in there and I try and think of kind of like the gardening. What are we going to do today? What's this tool that I'm going to try and create today?

Brian Funk (43:01.414)

Do a lot of those designs come from just a need while you're working on music or is it more, let me just make this and then see what I can make with it.

Tom Carpenter (43:12.591)

We have a plug-in that the Soap Audio guys and I made. We were trying to get down to the bottom of Michael Coleman, who is one third of Soap Audio, and he is an amazing mixer, producer, just audio engineer, musician all around. He was working with a lot of artists and he realized that when he recorded, when they recorded demo drums on their

voice memo on their iPhone. They would retract the drums and the artist would still prefer the voice memo drums. So we got down to what exactly is voice memos doing to the sounds and why is that pleasing? And we built a tool that is not...

It could be done if you route up a bunch of different... It's kind of expanding the quiet frequencies, or the quiet dynamics, and compressing the high ones, and changing the ratio dynamics, or changing, yeah, the ratio of the dynamics computer in real time based on the input of the sound. That tool wasn't out there, so we built it and...

We love it. it was for that one in particular, it was based off of just this everyday, why do I keep on dealing with people that prefer voice memos? What are voice memos doing? Can we do what voice memos is doing with a more musical intent?

Brian Funk (44:54.524)

So you're kind of referring to how I don't have to set the volume on my mic in my phone when I do a voice memo. It just sort of, it knows that because it's hearing what's coming in. And if I'm whispering in it, it knows it needs to bring it up. And if I'm recording the band, it knows.

Tom Carpenter (45:05.177)

Yeah

Tom Carpenter (45:12.409)

Voice memos, at least what we found, are doing some strange processing that's unusual when you, yeah, when you A-B it against the same source that was mic'd a different way. The playback of a voice memo has kind of an interesting dynamics thing going on. Yeah.

Brian Funk (45:32.892)

I've used them sometimes.

The last thing I did with my band, I used it almost like a room mic. So the drums were already tracked. I just ran them through, played them out of the monitors and just held my phone mic right here where I'm sitting and just let it record it. And then just kind of mix that in a little bit. And it definitely gave it a little bit of energy and a little more space. You know, the room, the song kind of changed a little bit.

Tom Carpenter (45:44.047)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (45:51.246)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (45:59.662)

A little something.

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (46:06.989)

Yeah. And it's a lot of fun. It's great. Yeah, this particular tool that we will release eventually. Yeah, and we've also built in parameters inside of the GUI to be able to kind of push what it's doing or what we assume that it's doing or what we found via our analysis to the extreme. So you can do these really crazy things to the sound.

Brian Funk (46:08.026)

It was cool.

Tom Carpenter (46:36.801)

It's great. It's a lot of fun.

Brian Funk (46:39.088)

Hmm, that is cool. that, but that came from a problem to solve because why does everyone like this voice memo? It should not work. Everything says no, let's do it the right way. But there's something more right about this way.

Tom Carpenter (46:45.133)

Yeah, yeah.

Tom Carpenter (46:54.711)

Yeah. Yeah. And the product that we're currently selling on Musub came also from trying to solve a problem, which was... This is the voice cleaner. Yes. From Soap Audio.

Brian Funk (47:08.22)

This is the voice cleaner.

It has a super cool interface, the way. The red and yellow and real simple, but interesting to interact with.

Tom Carpenter (47:14.979)

Thank you.

Yeah, that one actually came from Michael Coleman again. So I do as far as the company, it's Michael Coleman, Kevin Fielding and me. Kevin, or Michael is a really great audio engineer, Grammy nominated, all that stuff. And Kevin is a very high level programmer. He worked on some of the rabbit AI stuff and

currently is programming in the mobile space for skims. And I do more of the plug-in DSP backend stuff. So the voice cleaner came when Michael was complaining about basketball podcasts. He said all of them have the same issue. They have the same frequency buildup. They have the same, I think,

Rostam from vampire weekends had a great tweet that I think about all the time. It said just like remove the low-mids out of your life They all had this this terrible low-mid problem this terrible siblings problem this unevenness and it's in their dynamics and It was consistent we could tell across different Podcasts that were recorded in different rooms in different ways and then we tried to

kind of explain that we got in contact and we try to explain this to some of the podcast producers and terms like equalization, compression, dynamic range, multi-bands, sibilants, all these issues were daunting and scary words for them. So we set out to make a plugin.

Tom Carpenter (49:12.003)

that is a little bit of a non-musical application, well, a lot of bit of a non-musical application for anyone recording the human speaking voice to get a pleasant speaking voice that is non-taxing on the ear and to fix the problems if you only have maybe the budget USB mic from Best Buy or the recording into your iPhone without trying to get that crazy dynamics thing that I was talking about.

And it has been really well received by the people that use Audacity and getting the plugin via the MuseHub platform. And it's been a lot of fun getting to work with people and see the plugin have a bit of an adoption on a wide scale by podcasters and audiobook recorders.

narrators, content creators in general. People that may have never used a plugin before or never thought about digital signal processing or building a vocal chain or something like that.

Brian Funk (50:24.476)

And this works by they can choose like a profile or a preset for like their specific microphone. That's cool. Makes it easier than like some of the other like in terminology.

Tom Carpenter (50:30.861)

Yeah. Yeah, we, yeah, a long time getting just about all the microphones that, yeah, you could possibly really want or use, inside of that environment. And I've done a lot of, a lot of just mixing work for friends working in film and TV and on podcasts and that type of stuff. I find myself reaching for it more often than not.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (51:03.673)

Well, I mean, you've solved some of the issues you've encountered, right? So it's almost like your own preset in any plugin, basically, right? Or chain.

Tom Carpenter (51:10.039)

Yeah. Yeah.

Certainly, yeah.

Brian Funk (51:19.564)

When you're making one like this, have to imagine, because it sounds like it's, you're saying people are doing basketball podcasts, for instance, they're not audio engineers, music producers, which is probably why they're in the situation they are now, where you guys are saying, hey, something wrong with this. How do you decide how much control to give with it? Because you must have to...

Tom Carpenter (51:31.183)

Certainly.

Brian Funk (51:45.402)

decide some limitations, right? Because if they turn the knob too far, they're going to kill it.

Tom Carpenter (51:47.811)

Yeah. certainly. We, the, the plugin took about two years to develop and we, worked with a lot of people, mainly, parents of ours and stuff like that, where we really wanted to see, okay, push this to the limit. Can you make it sound bad? And, I know Brian, you have the plugin in front of you, but for anyone listening, it's got three knobs on it.

One says Squish, one says Suds, and one says DMUD. It's got a help mode where it will explain what all of those do. they, yeah, they're made very specifically to, they're linked very similarly in macros when you might build an Ableton Effect Rack where you can have one knob controlling nine different things. And whereas maybe on a FabFilter plugin, you might

have every single one of those program changes available to you, the end user, in the GUI. We wanted to go the exact opposite direction, where we said, best case scenario, you choose a preset, the knobs are going to be set where they are, where we've decided they should be set, and across a very broad range of human speaking voices that we demoed when creating the DSP for this plugin, we hope that you don't have to touch another knob.

And if you do, with the knobs skewed and everything, we are decently confident that your voice is not going to sound, it's not going to take much to make it sound quite great.

Brian Funk (53:30.94)

You want to take some of that control away because that's, mean, if you're an audio engineer, yes, I want to have all these. want to be able to do a bell curve and a, you know, low pass and whatever raise the resonance. But if I'm trying to make my podcast and I don't really know much more than how to cut out pauses or something like that, this is what I can go to.

Tom Carpenter (53:35.417)

Certainly.

Tom Carpenter (53:53.794)

Yeah.

It's a lot like, I think in in for a visual analogy, like an Instagram filter where I don't have access to the shutter and all that. And I don't necessarily want to. I'm personally colorblind. I would rather not have access to all that stuff. But if I click the filter, I might be able to have something sound more professional and then I can get

Brian Funk (54:10.234)

Right.

Tom Carpenter (54:23.373)

You know, that side of the work, the decent sounds, if that's taken care of, then I can focus on what I really want to focus on. the basketball podcast, it's talking about the subject matter of the podcast. Let's focus on making the podcast as enjoyable as possible and get to doing what you love.

Brian Funk (54:44.24)

Have you found anybody using this in more creative ways, like misusing it from the original intention?

Tom Carpenter (54:51.715)

You know, that is an interesting question and I have yet to see someone really try and break the plugin or like circuit bend it or something like that to be able to get an unusual results out.

Brian Funk (55:04.066)

or even people just running their drums through it or anything along those lines.

Tom Carpenter (55:07.755)

Yeah. No, if they are using the voice cleaner to do that, would very much appreciate it if they would let me know because I'd love to see that. Yeah.

Brian Funk (55:14.971)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (55:18.332)

Because in thinking back, we were talking about some of the old gear and the limitations that are built in with it. Yeah, now we have all these devices where we have every parameter we can control, which is, again, I'm not complaining. Don't take them away. But sometimes it's nice to have something that's going to sort of do its thing. You know what I'm saying? It's going to color it in its own way because it's

Tom Carpenter (55:22.04)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (55:44.068)

It's been built so that, yeah, this knob, it's doing like three things at once. So things are going to react.

Tom Carpenter (55:49.679)

It's a Pultec versus like a Pro-Q4. I love the Pro-Q4, but I instantiate the Pultec emulations. I would love to have a Pultec, but I instantiate the Pultec emulations, specifically the UAD one, way more often. It isn't doing exactly what is written on the GUI. And I'm a pretty firm believer in...

when creating a tool that's supposed to be a efficiency hack and to be able to get out of your own way in the creation sphere that it's more important to have an enjoyable piece of gear than a technical piece of gear. But there's different applications where I certainly need that Pro-Q4 and I need to set, you know, a 20 band or like a crazy dynamic EQ that's doing all sorts of this, that and the other and stereo width and

Yeah, there's use cases for both.

Brian Funk (56:53.712)

That's a great point because when I'm first creating a song and I'm getting in the vibe of it and the feel, I don't need to be pulling out some EQ where I'm looking at the frequency spectrum and boosting and cutting so that I get a little extra rumble. I want something where I can just turn the low end up and, all right, now it's rumbling like I need it. Now I can move forward. Later on, I'm mixing. I'm trying to fine tune things. Then, OK, now we'll get in there, but.

Tom Carpenter (57:14.488)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (57:22.095)

There are different sides of your brain, at least to me. And there are people that create as they mix, or mix as they create. yeah, as far as keeping your tool creator-centric, I prefer those that... I think I mentioned the Pulsar. I love Soma Labs. Their instruments are so cool. I adore their...

Brian Funk (57:24.186)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (57:49.997)

The Pulsar 23 has a connection that just says WTF and wow and stuff like that where it isn't made to be understood. It's made to be entropic and whether or not it's like a sample and hold algorithm that's pinging off of an LFO, it is something. It is algorithmically random or I guess it's analog so it's not algorithmically but you get what I'm saying.

The entropy in it is great and I love having that simplicity of this one thing I don't need to understand, I can just appreciate for what it's doing. Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:27.612)

I do that sometimes for myself with my own Ableton Live Racks. Rather than call something like low pass filter with reverb plus whatever, I might just call it like distance or melt. This is the melt knob. It has a few things going on and it gets me out of the...

Tom Carpenter (58:42.776)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (58:53.68)

That technical mindset, like you kind of mentioned earlier, like when you're watching Geddy Lee and you hear the sound gets muffled. But now you know it's a low pass filter at like 1k and you got the numbers in it. You almost like science yourself out of the fantasy world that the music is creating.

Tom Carpenter (59:00.462)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (59:04.377)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (59:14.329)

Sure, yeah, certainly. There's a... And I have gone down, I have only found that my appreciation for music has grown deeper the more that I learn about the really technical stuff, like the transforms at the...

bass level of digital music, but being as umbrella and being as beginner minded as possible is also probably the most fun place to be creating music.

Brian Funk (59:46.267)

Yeah. Yeah, I know a lot of people fear learning stuff for that reason. Like, no, I'm going to... And I guess that can happen sometimes where sometimes I hear a song like that's one, six, four, five progression and get like snooty about it. But as soon as I forget that it's one, six, four, five, I'm like, what a cool chord progression. You know?

Tom Carpenter (01:00:02.126)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:00:08.879)

Sounds great. Well, I mean, it brings me back to like, was a bachelor of music and the part writing was much more like completing a Sudoku puzzle. There's objective correctness inside of this. You don't do the parallel fifths if you want to, you know, resolve a plagal cadence, it's going to be this to that. And there are rules to it. And with programming and with doing

DSP engineering, it is kind of, you've got rules to it, but the end product can still be beautiful. If the composer followed all of the rules, the end user experience, the end listener that's consuming the symphony still kind of derives emotion from it.

Brian Funk (01:00:56.444)

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes that stuff can bog you down and pull you out of that. I mean, loved... Yeah, I've always loved...

Tom Carpenter (01:01:04.451)

Yeah, totally. It's balance.

Brian Funk (01:01:11.964)

the way I would talk about music before I knew what I was saying. I'd like, that sounds like a star behind some clouds. And you got all these weird ways of describing things because you don't have the actual vocabulary. But in those descriptions, a lot of times, it pulls you into this world of what you're making.

Tom Carpenter (01:01:32.123)

Yeah, I had a mistake, I think, on that front with accidentally pulling my dad out of it for a little bit. So my dad is a big music consumer and music fan. turned me on to a lot of the stuff that I love. And he was explaining to me that a mix from I Don't Remember Who didn't sound great to him. And

I was explaining to him, the system on which you're listening to the mix doesn't sound very good. And then we got out my Slate VSX headphones and we were like...

They've got the different room emulations. You can listen to it in like a digital version of a Tesla or like NRG studios or anything like that and switch around. And my dad had this in real time. He was, he was kind of realizing that, is it, is it the fault of the speaker manufacturer or the person that placed the speakers in a different room or the mix engineer and all of these different things?

And not that I regret it, because it's not like he doesn't enjoy music anymore, but I did realize in real time, was like, okay, we're taking too much of the magic out of this. We just, you know, the bass can just be too loud. Let's let it be, let's let that be what it is.

Brian Funk (01:02:53.136)

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, sometimes, yeah, you could be like at a show and really focused on, I don't like the way that particular drum sounds or something. And then that's all you hear. And now you're not having fun at the show or you just whatever this is what it is and.

Tom Carpenter (01:03:04.659)

yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:03:08.91)

Yep.

Tom Carpenter (01:03:14.573)

I had that issue at a music festival where I think I walked away from my friend so I could get a better stereo image. Like, what am I doing here? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. It's a...

Brian Funk (01:03:21.66)

I got the better stereo image, but I'm alone and I'm not sharing the experience anymore.

It's happened performing where I've been playing before and like something about the sound just eats at me and then I'll finish and be like, that was terrible. And maybe even listen back to it or other people, so good. sounded great. you're like, well, I guess.

Tom Carpenter (01:03:44.822)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:03:51.129)

That was one of the things with the sub vocal cleaner, more than anything, the issues with the basketball podcasts that Michael was listening to. then we found the same issue across a lot of different podcasts. These kind of like, amateur is the wrong word, but these kind of smaller podcasts that were very DIY.

they were taxing to listen to. There was a reason why you as a consumer, even if you couldn't vocalize it, even if you didn't have like the, you know, the specific words to be able to say that, you know.

this is why it's taxing, you would turn them off because they had these issues. So we kind of wanted to fix that because at the end of the day, we wanted that, you know, we the information that was behind all of that, those frequency problems. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:04:42.46)

Right. Yeah, that was a similar effect to like some of the music mastering that was happening. The loudness wars were like, oh wow, it's so intense. It's great. But like after a few minutes, you're like, oh my God, it's this, I'm never getting a break. need, like I'm getting a headache and I'm getting tired. Just listening to this because there's no push and pull, no breathing room.

Tom Carpenter (01:04:51.405)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:05:03.758)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:05:07.575)

It's bold listening to all the new remasters and whatnot where they've gone back and tried to really, you know, get the original intended dynamic range. Suddenly that snare is not being buried, something like that.

Brian Funk (01:05:14.844)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:05:19.845)

Right.

Brian Funk (01:05:26.588)

It's a little funny when you go on the streaming services now and you've got some choices of like what year version of the album, like am going to listen to Nirvana Nevermind from 2013 or the new 2021, 30 year or am going to, where's the original? Can I just have that? I have friends that have been

Tom Carpenter (01:05:34.243)

Yeah, sure.

Tom Carpenter (01:05:43.437)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:05:48.803)

The biggest...

Brian Funk (01:05:50.512)

going back to their CDs for that reason, because they're like, I just want it to sound the way it sounded, not this new edition that are...

Tom Carpenter (01:05:54.231)

I don't want it. Yeah. You're speaking about the Beatles mixes. Some of those are funny. I don't know which years they were, but there are some mixes I think I had on CD where it's like Ringo and George in the right ear and John and Paul in the left ear, where I'm not sure what the how that one crossed the finish line. Right.

Brian Funk (01:06:12.848)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:06:19.684)

Yeah, they did a lot of weird stuff like that.

Tom Carpenter (01:06:22.903)

Yeah, I'm really big fan and huge... I'm very interested in spatialization and what's going to happen with head tracking and what they're currently doing with Atmos, where music can be panned more in a 3D environment and...

Stereo, like I was saying, digital music is decently nascent. Stereo, as a means by which we listen to music, is also, I mean, very much nascent compared to how long we as a people have been listening to music. The vast majority of that time, if you wanted to hear more of the bassist, there was no recording. You had to turn your head. You could hear more of where the bass was coming from. And I'm curious whether or not when you mix...

what's currently implemented with gyroscopes and head tracking and all this, whether or not we'll move back to a place of being able to define your own listening experience via head tracking, or whether or not that will be an option, like you were saying, inside of the streaming services. I want to put on dark side, and I want to put on the Atmos version, but I want it to be.

in a room where I can move even if I do have on my AirPod Max or whatever they are.

Brian Funk (01:07:47.396)

Mm.

Yeah, these AirPods I have now, they're, guess, like, maybe they're the pro or something. They're maybe a generation behind or so. But they have that where, if I put my phone in like my left pocket, at first, it sounds like the music is on my side. And then it's sort of like understands after a couple of seconds that, that's just where you're keeping your phone now. Okay. And then it centers again. and that can be a little weird.

Tom Carpenter (01:08:03.832)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:08:07.502)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:08:15.396)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:18.728)

don't like it in that case. And it can be funny also if I have the computer connected to the AirPods and I turn away, you know, I'm watching YouTube or whatever. YouTube is still over there. Like speakers are. It's got this, it's a weird feeling.

Tom Carpenter (01:08:32.27)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:08:39.664)

But it does allow some of the Atmos stuff to come, which I don't even really understand how they're able to do that with only two speakers in your head. But some of the mixes I've heard are great, really cool.

One I really enjoyed was the B-52's Love Shack. had the guys that mixed that on the podcast and that was really cool because something I never noticed about that song, the entire way through, there's just people like partying. It's like, hey, all right, like people just, it's crowd noise kind of, and you really feel like you're in it. But there've been other mixes where it's like, where's that guitar? Like the lead guitar is buried now and.

Tom Carpenter (01:08:58.563)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:09:08.471)

Yeah, sure.

Tom Carpenter (01:09:22.83)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:09:23.068)

There's something weird going on here with this mix that I'm having a hard time.

Tom Carpenter (01:09:30.191)

What I'd be curious about, and I'm really asking for the world here, is whether or not, in a hypothetical future, you could have, you could give the end listener volition in choosing how they would like... You know, if you want the... Well, if you want the crowd sound in the B-52 to be louder, maybe it wouldn't look like a mixing console, like an audio guy might understand it, but is there a world in which you could...

Brian Funk (01:09:45.18)

or they want to stand.

Brian Funk (01:09:51.942)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:09:59.661)

do something on your listening experience to be able to choose to have more John, less Ringo, more Paul, you know? Is there something that you could do spatially? I've seen, I know that they've done that kind of as experiments inside of physical spaces that have physical at most rigs. But as far as delivering music in that format, whether or not there's anything there.

Brian Funk (01:10:09.104)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:30.19)

Yeah, kind like what you're saying about getting the better stereo image at the show moving over. Or can I stand closer to Paul so I can hear his bass better?

Tom Carpenter (01:10:34.68)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:10:40.451)

How much choice do we want to the listener? Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:10:45.594)

Yeah. so much of the actual piece of music is in the mix, those artistic decisions you're making with the mix. So if you're turning that over, you're changing a lot.

Tom Carpenter (01:10:56.847)

Good one.

Tom Carpenter (01:11:00.361)

yeah, there's a, yeah, I feel like I'm, and I mix our music. So I'd also probably be, you know, not offended, I'd be cautious to hand that amount of choice over. Maybe it would be something like what we were doing with the voice cleaner where you can change it enough, but not try and break it. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:11:09.67)

Hey.

Yeah, especially.

Brian Funk (01:11:24.688)

Right. Well, especially if you have a song that has 72 tracks in it, you know, but

Tom Carpenter (01:11:29.599)

yeah, no. There would have to be some type of standardization and how that's delivered. It's a whole range of issues in what I'm proposing, but I think the type of problem is there.

Brian Funk (01:11:37.348)

Yeah. Well, have you seen the isotope as a visual mixer? Yeah, I think it's through their Neutron app plugin where it's kind of a...

Tom Carpenter (01:11:44.621)

no I haven't.

Brian Funk (01:11:52.628)

they all communicate with each other. But it's, it's, there's a vertical line that goes up and down and the, that would be your volume. And then it's, it's like a graph, I guess, where you got up and down, left and right. Yeah. And you can just move those things around. And if you place it higher, it's louder. And if you place it more to the right, it's more to the right, more to the left.

Tom Carpenter (01:11:56.226)

I one.

Tom Carpenter (01:12:02.69)

Okay.

Tom Carpenter (01:12:07.757)

I pulled up an image of it. Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:12:19.023)

Cool, yeah. I am.

Brian Funk (01:12:21.404)

I've played with it a little bit. was interesting. It was a neat way to mix that, you know...

Tom Carpenter (01:12:28.867)

Would you put each of those on your individual stems at the end of the chain? And then that would be gain and panning type?

Brian Funk (01:12:36.77)

Yeah, so if I remember correctly, if you have a bunch of these neutrons on the tracks, then they all feed to some central location, and then you have the visual mixer where you can push things around a bit.

Tom Carpenter (01:12:45.172)

Got it.

Tom Carpenter (01:12:53.497)

The only iZotope I really want to use all that often, I know they've got amazing tools, but the RX suite is really, great. For either the D-HUM or they've got specialized guitar denoise, the spectral denoise, they're intensive, but they're great.

Brian Funk (01:13:03.014)

Hmm. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:13:16.122)

Yeah, yeah, they make really interesting stuff and I've used plenty of it. I'm always using Ozone and stuff like that. But that kind of visual interface I could see maybe for a consumer, like you can have like your phone, right? And you can just like kind of move things.

Tom Carpenter (01:13:25.358)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:13:34.295)

Yeah, for this, this way.

Tom Carpenter (01:13:40.459)

Or like when we've all entered the Matrix in 12 years, when we're wearing our Apple Vision Pro headsets, being able to... Something like that. Yeah. It's a thought. It's a thought. And then would you be able to turn your head 360? But like you were saying with the YouTube coming out of your right ear when you turn your head.

Brian Funk (01:13:49.158)

Yeah, right.

Tom Carpenter (01:14:07.585)

It definitely needs to be a choice and we need to have the ability to choose to listen to stereo.

Brian Funk (01:14:14.396)

Yeah, I don't know how I feel. think it's like, part of me thinks it's cool. It's like, wow, it's cool. can do that. But when I'm like, this happens to me, like every time I, if I'm going out to do like a little yard work or something or go for a run, I put my phone in my pocket and then everything goes in my pocket, you know? And then it comes back. Cause I think it understands that.

Tom Carpenter (01:14:28.814)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:14:40.581)

They must just know like, that's probably a case where you don't want that. But it is a funny feeling, which is weird because it's more natural, but.

Tom Carpenter (01:14:45.465)

Mm-hmm.

Tom Carpenter (01:14:52.619)

It is. It is. But I guess we've naturalized here by...

Brian Funk (01:14:55.012)

I guess we're just used to it. We've been trained to have headphones on and just hear it out of the headphones.

Tom Carpenter (01:15:01.441)

I had a friend have me come over and look at their they'd recently gotten a like a hi-fi setup and they were not an audio person in the slightest and they got a decent system and they placed it so that the two speakers were back to back one was facing this way and one was facing exactly the other way there was no stereo image it was just exact opposites and I realized that that phantom middle channel and

know, spatialization is just something that most people, even even audiophiles, I mean maybe not so much audiophiles, but a lot of people just don't think about it, like at all. They really think about the left and the right in the middle of it all.

Brian Funk (01:15:44.89)

No, no, I've found myself explaining what listening in mono is to people versus stereo. And you just don't think about that, I guess, until you get into this world.

Tom Carpenter (01:15:51.182)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:15:59.181)

Yeah, and I know it's the same way with all the mediums that I'm not, you know, a professional in. I know there things happening, be it novels or TV shows or movies or anything at all, where there's so much nuance inside of it that I just get the joy of being a consumer and just get the awesome emotional feeling of consuming that without heavy knowledge of what's going on here.

Brian Funk (01:16:03.387)

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:16:28.144)

Well, I think that's kind of...

the goal of a lot of it too. I don't think you want someone listening to the song and then be like, what a cool mixing move that was, you know, the job of that, the mixer is almost to get out of the way that you're not thinking about it. And, or like the camera in a movie, if you're constantly like, whoa, cool camera angle. I love how they're spinning the camera now. You're, you're not thinking about the story and you're caught up in the,

Tom Carpenter (01:16:39.843)

Yeah, probably.

Tom Carpenter (01:16:45.315)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:16:55.278)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:16:59.779)

Yeah. In the technical... Right, right. Well, that's great analogy. That's funny. Yeah. It is.

Brian Funk (01:17:00.19)

You know, you're excited about the paper the book's on and not the story of the book.

Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:17:12.534)

And I think that's a little bit like what I was saying before with being at a show and I don't like the way that sounds or the new master is kind of annoying. The 2014 edition.

Tom Carpenter (01:17:20.877)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:17:24.751)

Well, yeah, deprive yourself of the joy of consumption. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:17:31.536)

Yeah. Yeah. So much of the job is to get out of the way. your friend, you know, with, with soap is probably like, I was enjoying the show, but I'm too distracted by the sound. Like I, want to listen to it more, but it's annoying. It hurts or it. Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:17:45.847)

Yeah. I mean, that was it. It was, and it was, was made out of a labor of love. And I'm glad that the tool is being used by people and I'm glad that it's finding its home because we really are very proud of it. And we stand behind it a hundred percent. Yeah, it was made to fix, fix a problem so that it could, it could be it being the end product could be more enjoyable.

Brian Funk (01:18:12.708)

It's great people are taking to it and it kind of brings me to ask you a little bit about MuseHub because it's one thing to make something but it has to also reach people and you guys are using MuseHub to reach an audience and I'm not all that familiar with it but as I've been looking through it, it seems like a pretty cool way to find some new tools for whether you're making music or even more than that I think.

Tom Carpenter (01:18:19.597)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:18:28.356)

Yes.

Tom Carpenter (01:18:36.673)

It's great. So Audacity, think all, a lot of music creators are very familiar with Audacity. Audacity has been around for a very long time. And at present Audacity has been freeware and crowd maintained for as long as I know.

Brian Funk (01:18:56.304)

It was Sony originally, if I'm not mistaken. Am I wrong about that? I could be wrong. I never really used it, too much, but it was always the software at the school I work with. Audacity is what everybody used. It doesn't matter. It's not anymore, at least.

Tom Carpenter (01:18:59.235)

Was it? I believe you.

Tom Carpenter (01:19:14.489)

Sure.

Tom Carpenter (01:19:20.847)

It was developed by... Shoot. Now you got me looking at the Wikipedia page. This is not important. Yeah. It started in 99 at Carnegie Mellon. Yeah, I believe it was freeware the whole time. Doesn't really matter. It's been a part of Muse Group for about three years now.

Brian Funk (01:19:30.14)

You

Tom Carpenter (01:19:49.619)

And Muse Group launched Muse Hub, where there's also MuseScore and some pretty popular creation tools. Specifically, Audacity is the most popular or the most used DAW in the world. And it's far and away the most popular amongst non-musicians using DAWs to record

non-musical ideas. So a lot of what the MuseHub software is doing is getting the tools to these people that you and I and a lot of the listeners of the podcast are probably aware of everything, you know, between the multi-track recorder and the newest release of Serum 2. But like these people may have never owned a plugin before and

may not be familiar with anything inside of the world of DSP. So I think Muse Hub is making audio production and DSP tools accessible to an audience that don't necessarily find themselves looking for those otherwise. And I am not affiliated with Muse Hub, so I could be getting that story entirely wrong, but that's what I understand it to be and...

I really have only the best things to say about that team. And it's had a lot of users since it launched MuseHub as a platform a bit ago.

Brian Funk (01:21:29.508)

I mean, it's great you're able to put your work up there and it reaches people. And I say it's like right on the front page. It's for podcasting essentials. It's after audacity. It's no voice cleaner.

Tom Carpenter (01:21:33.049)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:21:40.963)

Yeah. And I know that MUSE Hub is encouraging other aspiring developers to get onto the platform and try their shot at kind of creating tools, be it for musical uses or non-musical uses. yeah, there's a lot of joy to be found in DSP if you find your name being called that way and a lot of great resources for education.

inside of that sphere.

Brian Funk (01:22:12.86)

I think it's really cool how you've taken a lot of these interests of yours from playing music with other people, performing, touring, and also just programming and creating your own tools. It's, I think, the kind of modern direction a lot of people that are interested in music making and being involved with music as a career kind of need to think about because

Everything changes so fast. It's hard to put any of your eggs in just one basket. So to have some maneuverability and you know, all of that is, is smart. And it's probably fun for you too, cause you get to scratch a lot of itches.

Tom Carpenter (01:22:48.782)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:22:58.659)

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I wouldn't say that like pursuing a career in music is like always, you know.

going to be the most financially stable thing that you can do in life. And I wouldn't say that like going deeper into DSP was something that I did to kind of achieve, you know, whatever, a more diverse, either financial or whatever, trying to stabilize myself. But it has given me an appreciation for all sides of music, be it the knob turning, the very granular, you know.

This was recorded by a mic and then went through an A to D conversion. Okay, what is A to D? Now that I appreciate that, I appreciate everything that's happening on my screen more and I appreciate the music more. And it's also allowed me to like really appreciate the creators that have come before me that have like paved the way and made amazing music and amazing music creation tools.

Brian Funk (01:24:04.89)

Yeah, that's cool. That tends to happen when you start exploring something, start making it yourself and start seeing what really goes into it and all of the little things that came before that allow you to get to where you're going.

Tom Carpenter (01:24:13.645)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:24:20.899)

Yeah, certainly. It's a joy. And there's a lot of innovation left.

Brian Funk (01:24:30.234)

Yeah, I think so. It's always, I mean, we're getting spoiled, I think, really. mean, it seems like every week, there's a new this, there's a new that, this new thing came out and everything's like, my God, that's so cool. It used to be so much more spread out.

Tom Carpenter (01:24:31.439)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:24:41.347)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:24:47.789)

Yeah, there's a bedroom developers and there's, yeah, I would say is a, you know, maybe I'm biased on this, but I learned to code before chat GPT and the, the LLMs could really just spit out code. And I would caution anyone if they want to get into plugin developments to learn it the hard way, because even as I've tried to get more into and try and learn higher level and lower level stuff.

It's funny how there's nothing that can replace doing it the right way. The GPTs and LLMs and all that stuff have led me more astray than in the right direction. Yeah.

Brian Funk (01:25:31.1)

Yeah, they're certainly interesting tools. I've found them maybe like in creating like visuals even sometimes I find it very hard to get what I want but sometimes it gives me the idea to make what I want and that's kind of cool but yeah you can't do that if you don't have some of that foundational stuff as well. There's still a lot of value to knowing that stuff.

Tom Carpenter (01:25:48.366)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:25:55.843)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:26:00.121)

Certainly, no, and I don't mean to say don't, don't, yeah, I'm not holier than thou. I'll use it. I'll hop in there, but it can confuse if you don't really know what you're looking at.

Brian Funk (01:26:12.484)

Right. believe that. Anything on the horizon or you want to share before we wrap this one up?

Tom Carpenter (01:26:14.372)

Yeah.

Tom Carpenter (01:26:23.503)

Certainly. yeah. Well, first off, Brian, thank you for having me. This is a lot of fun to do. Yeah, imagine by the time this... Yeah. Well, I was about to say, I imagine by the time this comes out, my band will have likely finished the tour. We've got about a week and a half left, a little bit more than that. We're ending next Thursday, which is the 16th. So...

Brian Funk (01:26:29.988)

Yeah, thanks for being here. This is great. Taking time out of your tour.

Brian Funk (01:26:52.624)

You might be out before then.

Tom Carpenter (01:26:54.383)

Okay, right on. Well, I've got a band called Moon Tower and we love our new show, we love our new album. We're selling vinyls of the album that isn't out yet and that's a lot of fun. Soap Audio is continuing to create some amazing tools that I'm going to be cautious to talk too much about because...

I know how development goes and sometimes a feature set ends up working really well in beta and then in the release we can't deliver. So I will just say for non-musical applications and some cool unusual musical applications, Soap Audio is some great tools coming down the pipeline that I couldn't be happier about.

Other than that, check out Audacity and check out MuseHub and the great people at MuseGroup.

Brian Funk (01:27:51.708)

Cool. Yeah, definitely checked it out. I'll put links in the show notes for people so you can just click on them. But yeah, Tom, thanks so much. This has been great. Thanks for coming by. Yeah, you too. Thank you to everybody listening. Enjoy.

Do you struggle through the process? 

This video contains 10 habits of prolific music producers. Adopt them into your music making and let your best music come to life!

Every time we make music is a unique and special experience. We will never be in exactly the same place again. We have to take advantage of each moment we get otherwise, that music will never get made. 

This episode is sponsored by Baby Audio and their new plug-in Tekno! Save 15% with the code: MPP15 - https://babyaud.io/tekno

Listen on Apple, Spotify, YouTube

Takeaways:

• Every music creation moment is unique and special.

• Prolific music production requires consistent practice.

• Don't wait for the perfect moment to start creating.

• It's okay to borrow ideas from other artists.

• Create what you want to hear, not just for others.

• Establish a routine to make music regularly.

• Embrace constraints to enhance creativity.

• Explore side projects to find new inspiration.

• Immerse yourself in a creative environment.

• Share your work to build a community and grow as an artist.

Links:

• Brian Funk Website - https://brianfunk.com

• Music Production Club - https://brianfunk.com/mpc 

• 5-Minute Music Producer - https://brianfunk.com/book

• Intro Music Made with 16-Bit Ableton Live Pack - https://brianfunk.com/blog/16-bit

• Music Production Podcast - https://brianfunk.com/podcast

• Save 25% on Ableton Live Packs at my store with the code: PODCAST - https://brianfunk.com/store

Thank you for listening. 

Please review the Music Production Podcast on your favorite podcast provider!

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk (00:00.097)

Every time you sit down and make music is different and special. You feel a certain way, you're in a certain mood, the time of day factors in, the people you are around with affects you. It's like the old saying, you can never go in the same river twice because the river is never the same and neither are you. So each time you make music, you're going to come up with something completely unique to that particular moment. And if you don't do it now, what music is not getting made? What songs are not getting written?

What if Paul McCartney didn't sit down at the piano after he dreamed up the melody of yesterday? Or what if Dolly Parton didn't sit down to write music the day she wrote both Jolene and I Will Always Love You? What music of yours is not getting created right now? The only way to ensure that your best music isn't going unwritten is to become prolific and write as often as possible. But what happens when you have the time to make music and you don't know where to start?

In this video, I'm going to share 10 habits of prolific music producers that I've picked up from my own experience and the wisdom of hundreds of guests that I've spoke to on this music production podcast. Even if you only apply a couple of these principles, you'll be making more music, feeling more creative and defending yourself against writer's block and self-doubt.

Number one, don't wait to start. Start now. Don't postpone your creative work until you know who you are or have the perfect idea or until you've figured out your identity and unique style. You have to actually make stuff and work on stuff to actually develop that unique style. You're not gonna have the right gear that's gonna fix everything. You're not gonna download the proper program or software or plugin that's gonna change everything for you. You already have plenty. Start now.

And if you don't feel like you have the credentials to do it, just fake it till you make it. Act like the person you want to become. Adopt the mindset of the artist you want to be. Act like a creator and start producing stuff and you will become a creator. You're never going to get a certificate in the mail that makes you have the permission to create music. You're not going to get this like plaque one day that shows that you are officially there and you have the credibility to do it. It never comes. You just have to do it.

Brian Funk (02:12.789)

and do it and do it and as you do it that's what you are you're making music music producers produce music so produce music don't wait start now number two it's okay to be unoriginal nothing is original all of our creative work builds on what came before artists have influences and those artists influences have their own influences we're all standing on the shoulders of giants as they say so we're really never creating anything new it's more like we're mixing things together so

So borrow from lots of sources. Draw from multiple different influences, take little aspects of what one artist does and what another does, and throw them together. The more varied your influences, the more original your work will be. You can steal grooves or maybe song structures or rhythmic ideas. You can borrow phrasing from songs, maybe even rewrite lyrics and then put them into your own melodies and rhythms.

There's all kinds of ways you can borrow things from other people. You can write down chord progressions you like and then come back to them later after you've forgotten where they came from. I really think it's a great idea to just collect different ideas. In my book, The Five Minute Music Producer, it's one of the things I talk about is creating these reference files so that when you do have time to make music, you know something you can do. So I've got just snippets of song lyrics, titles, things I see in...

newspapers or magazines or phrases people say or just things that pop in my head. Maybe it's a line from a movie or something, but I'll just write those down in my lyric ideas. And then I got another one called techniques to try in a song where I'm just collecting things that I like that other music does. Maybe I like a certain buildup or a certain introduction to a song, or I like the way the chorus comes around in a certain kind of way. I just write these things down and collect them. And then when I'm ready to make music, I don't have to think, what am I going to do? What am I going to do?

I can just borrow from these ideas that I've already come up with. Collect ideas from your favorite artists, make lists of these ideas, and when it's time to make music, throw them together. Because even if you're just copying something that somebody else did, most likely you're going to kind of mess it up and miss the mark, but in your own unique way. And the kind of mistakes or quirks about how you did it is going to be where your personality comes through. So really don't stress it too much.

Brian Funk (04:28.459)

If you wind up copying too much in the early stages of a project, you can always go back and edit it later. But know that we're all borrowing from each other. Your job is to just borrow the things that you like, put them together in your own way, and allow your personality to come into it. You're not going to be original. Don't worry about it. That's going to put too much stress on you. So allow yourself to be unoriginal. And ironically, you're going to wind up sounding original. Number three, make what you want to hear.

Make something that you will enjoy, even if you just enjoy the process of making it, because then at least one person will like it. And more than likely, there's probably a lot of other people just like you out there that are gonna enjoy what you're doing. You might inspire them. By making yourself happy, you're probably gonna make those other people happy too. Create what you love. Instead of trying to make things that you think other people will like, just make stuff that you like. Focus on the art you wanna see. Write the book you wanna read, build the projects you wanna use.

create the music you want to listen to. Maybe you want a song for a certain occasion, make a song for that, and then that's your song for that occasion. And like I said before, there's probably other people that will enjoy what you're doing too. But if you're focusing on pleasing other people, you're going to get stuck real fast because you have no feedback in those early stages. The only feedback you really have is your own. So if you just focus on enjoying the process and enjoying what you're doing, you're probably going to make stuff that other people want to hear anyway. So just make what you want to hear.

Number four, create a routine. Set times to make your music and stick to it. Think of it like an appointment. Put it in the calendar. Create a system for yourself where you say, if it's Monday at 5 p.m., I'm going to make music, then when Monday at 5 p.m. shows up, you know what you're doing and you don't have to think about it. You don't have to decide if there's time. You've already created that time. If you want to play with a band or other people.

You have to do this anyway. That's the only way the practices ever happen. You gotta put it on the schedule and make it regular so that everybody knows what's coming up. Don't feel like you have to get more time. You have to quit your day job. In fact, having a day job for me is probably one of the best things that gets me making music because when I go to work, I'm taking up a large portion of my day. So when I get home, I know I only have a few hours left to do what I wanna do.

Brian Funk (06:43.315)

So I make the time and when I sit down to make music, I know that I only have a certain amount of time, so I get to work. I often refer back to those lists I told you about earlier to get ideas flowing if I don't have ideas. But the job actually provides me with the structure to know when I should be making music. When I'm on summer vacation, I have all that time off, I feel like I have so much time I can waste time like crazy and I'll say, I'll do it later, I'll do it tomorrow. And a lot of times, weeks go by without really getting much done on a project.

But once I have work, I realize, okay, I've only got three hours today. I've only got an hour tomorrow. And then I just get to work and do it. allow your normal routines to structure your artistic routine. But don't feel like you have to wait until inspiration strikes to do it because it's very unlikely that that inspiration is going to line up with your schedule perfectly. Find a time to work, show up and inspiration will come to you.

That's the way to get inspired to start working, to start doing stuff and things will start to happen that you react to and that'll make you excited. Make a routine of it. Show up like it's your job, like it's an appointment, like you would be letting someone down if you didn't do it because you are going to be letting someone down if you don't do it and that person is you. So don't treat yourself poorly. Stick to your routine and make music on a schedule. Number five, embrace your constraints.

The real problem for music makers these days is we have too many choices. We have every plugin, every sample. We can download things, we can watch tutorials, we can learn and learn and learn before we ever get started. We need to push that stuff away and just get going. Work with what you have now. Instead of thinking you need new gear or you need to learn something, make something with what you've got and the space you've got and the time you've got. Then...

In the future, you can add gear or you can learn things over time, but nobody makes music by getting everything they need and learning everything they need first and then doing it. So much of the learning happens as you're doing it and so much of the realizing what you need happens while you're doing it. When it's time to create, think about creating limitations and challenges for yourself. Use subtraction. We've got infinite possibilities. Find a way to create limitations for yourself so you can be creative within those limitations. Creativity is really

Brian Funk (08:58.539)

problem solving. It's how do I figure out how to do this thing with the situation I'm in? If your answer to that is change my situation all the time, you're never being creative. You're just finding other ways around it. The real trick to being creative is figuring out how you're going to solve problems with what you already have. So embrace those constraints. They're actually your friends. They'll get your mind going. They'll get you doing things you might not have done otherwise. And they'll get you making music instead of finding excuses.

why you shouldn't be making music. Number six, try different approaches to shake things up. Now this one comes after you've already employed principle number four, which is create a routine. After you've got a routine going for a while, every once in a while, shake it up. Try working in a different spot. Maybe bring your computer or your instrument or whatever you use to make music into a different location. Take it outside if you can, maybe get away from the computer, try a different instrument, try a physical setup.

Maybe just use pens, papers and a recorder. Even your phone is fine because those mics are great now on phones. But the point is to just mix it up in a way that you're now kind of have this novelty of something fresh and different. It's going to get you thinking differently. It might even be to just break the routine and do it at a different time. But by changing your either environment, time or tools, you might find yourself making music that you wouldn't make otherwise. And that can be very inspiring and lead to new directions musically. So every once in a while.

Shake things up.

Brian Funk (10:31.147)

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Brian Funk (11:24.637)

Number seven, create side projects. Sometimes when we're working on a project for so long, we can get a little burnt out on it. We can get stuck. So we can find ways to get out of that by exploring different projects, maybe work in a different genre, maybe use a different set of sounds or instruments, maybe even do an entirely different thing aside from making music. You'd be surprised at the different connections you can make by creating some physical art, drawing, painting, or making

videos or something like that, you can find inspiration and connections with making music. And if you pursue some of these things, you might find yourself getting good at making album art or music videos, or maybe creating something that you can also bring into your world of your music. But it's nice to have something different to turn to every once in a while. You don't have to stay focused on one thing all the time. A lot of times one passion will be developed by exploring other passions. You might find that

If you have an alternative creative outlet or another project to work on, you'll take that a little bit less seriously. And you might bring that less serious attitude to the stuff that you are taking seriously. Cause a lot of times we get stuck and burnt down on projects because we take it too seriously. So having a little practice trying something different that we're not as invested in can really add a lot to the things that we are invested in. So create some side projects for yourself. Number eight, immerse yourself in a creative world.

Create your own environment. Surround yourself with books, art, and objects that you love. Things that might connect thematically to what you want to work on. Use travel or the internet to find new perspectives and ideas. But bring yourself into this little world and try to create that musically. A lot of times I think of making music as creating a world for the listener. So subverse yourself in that. Listen to music, let's watch movies, things that will inspire that kind of thinking.

And you can repeat yourself. It can be fun to explore sounds and genres and creative approaches. Sometimes it's really nice to work on a project of say a certain genre and just really go into that for a while. And then the next project is your chance to do something totally different. I think that's a lot of fun because it gives me something to look forward to. And it also gives me the motivation to finish the thing I'm working on now. A lot of times I'll decide, I've just made like a album with my band. Now I want to do something electronic and ambient.

Brian Funk (13:52.369)

As I'm finishing the work with the band, it's part of my motivation is I want to get to the next thing. Build yourself a world, surround yourself with music, film, art, create your own sounds and palettes that you can use in your music so that you've got this thing you're investing some time in and spending some time and make a bunch of songs that are very similar to each other. Sometimes we feel like we got to be different every time. Don't worry about becoming stale or repetitive. What you're really doing is just exploring that world a little bit deeper.

And you're allowed to repeat yourself a little bit. The things that you're repeating are probably going to become your trademarks. And you probably have a lot of artists that you love that have a sort of trademark thing they do. Don't be afraid to do that. That's a way you can kind of own yourself and your own personality musically. So spend some time in a specific creative world and a project and see what happens. Number nine, don't be afraid to share your work. This is so important. Share your work early and often.

In fact, the beginning is such a great time to share because no one's going to know who you are anyway. You can kind of leverage your obscurity. When you're first starting, the fact that you're anonymous and people that know don't know who you are allows you to experiment freely. You don't have the pressure of expectations or what people are going to be comparing your work against your old work or any of that kind of stuff. You just put it out there and see what happens. Think of your work as like a document in time of where you were.

When we look in the mirror every day, we don't see ourselves changing much. But if you look at a photo from a year or two ago, you might say, wow, I've changed a bit. I look different. This is kind of what we want to do with our music and our art. We want to get used to that feeling of just creating kind of like a path or breadcrumbs of where we've been. We're creating a body of work. When I think about it that way, like I'm making a body of work. It's fun to contribute to that. Often I put things in as much as I can.

It helps develop my overall story as an artist. I'm not thinking too much about like one project being the most definitive thing of who I am right now. If you try to make something that's going to capture everything you believe, all your perspectives and one major opus masterpiece, you're probably going to get stuck and frustrated because we're not that simple. There's many sides to us. Often our messages have contradictions in it.

Brian Funk (16:11.416)

Often we feel one way and then completely the opposite the next day. It's okay. When you start creating a body of work and leaving these breadcrumbs behind, you create this more human, more dimensional character. Your art is representative of who you actually are. You can't pick one particular thing to just encapsulate who we are. It's more about the body of work. And that makes it a little bit easier to add pieces to that puzzle and share them and try new things because you're not worried about

this super important one message that you're trying to communicate. We're just not like that as people. So don't worry about that. I think it makes for a more interesting overall picture of all the artists I love is that they go through stages and phases and things change. Their positions change, their beliefs change, their attitudes on things change. It makes for a more rounded character to follow and that's more human and more relatable. So share your work, leave.

breadcrumbs, think of it like a diary every time you make something. Create a body of work that you can look back on and say, hey, that captures a lot of the different things I've been going through at different times. Number 10 is to make connections with other musicians. It's so important to connect with other people. Making music forever was about making music with people. You had to have other people to be in ensembles. Now we can do it alone in our computers and be very isolated about it.

But making connections with others will help you share your work and it will help you grow as an artist as well. It's really helpful to have people that you can trade ideas with, get feedback from. Nowadays on the internet, you can find communities of all kinds of stuff. So it's much easier to find your people. When you're doing this, a couple of things to think about, always be nice to other people. This is not a competition. Nobody wins music. Nobody wins the best song. You don't need to

Defeat other people to get ahead. In fact, if you're a part of a community and one person starts having some success that particular artist might bring up the community. Everybody benefits from this. Most of the time when people are mean to each other, it's usually due to their own frustration. You might see that every once in a while, but don't take it to heart too much. People are tend to be venting about really what they're feeling about themselves. And if you're nice to them and you're friendly to them, even when they are nasty to you,

Brian Funk (18:32.668)

you might help get them out of that cycle and it might make them see things a little bit differently and then become supportive of what you're doing. But if you're going to be mean back to them, then they're gone and they're done and now you've made an enemy and someone that's against you. And it shouldn't be like that. We should be supporting each other. I think I felt that competition feeling in the past, but in the last few years or decades, I've really been thinking more about like rooting people on and celebrating their victories because I've found that there's always a time in

Every single project, no matter how much experience I get, no matter how good I think I get at doing a certain thing or a certain genre, there's always a time in every project where I'm loaded with self-doubt, imposter syndrome, I feel like I don't know what I'm doing, I should be better, I have no right, I'm a fake, I'm a phony. This happens all the time, every single time. So when I see people that have finished music, it's evidence to me that it's not impossible. It reminds me that if they could get through it, then I probably can too.

One thing you're going to learn about making music is how little people really care about it. So it's nice to shower people with some of the support that you'd like to feel. Make them feel good about their work. They're more likely to feel good about your work. And now you're supporting each other. Now you're teammates. Now you're working together. This is how communities grow. And it becomes very motivating. It's so nice to see other people succeed because it shows you that it's not impossible. And those are people that you know that you've connected with. You can learn from them and you can help each other as they say.

rising tide raises all boats, right? So as the water goes higher, so does everyone in that water. So get in the water with other people and root each other on. Join communities. I would recommend my music production club. It's a really cool community of music producers of all kinds of genres. And we're always sharing music, supporting each other, giving each other ideas, sharing resources. We meet on Zoom and we make music together and share our ideas with each other.

And we learn and we realize what we're doing well, what we can improve on. We get ideas from each other and inspire each other. It's so important to find a community of people that you can interact with because you are going to get into these times where it's tough and you have self doubt and it feels like no one cares. But when you get into a good community, can.

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find some support and you can help others that are struggling too and that can sometimes be the exact thing that helps you. Sometimes seeing somebody struggle with the very thing you're struggling with does make you feel better because you realize you're not alone. It allows you to see your problems from an outside perspective and understand that you can get through it together. Having a community of people can really make a difference in this difficult challenge of making music. So those are some things you can do.

If you are getting stuck and you want to be more prolific, I can't stress it enough, you never know what's going to happen each time you make music. And every time you let an opportunity get away, we really just don't know what we've lost. And that could be some of our best music. Next time you're struggling, next time you're not sure, just sit down and put in a little bit of time, try some of these principles, and I think it might help you get a little further along.

Good luck to you. Thanks for watching the music production podcast. I'm Brian Funk. You can check out my work at brianfunk.com. I've got lots of tutorials, free Ableton Live packs, packs I sell, stuff you can use in your music, hopefully stuff that will inspire you a bit. And if you want to join a cool community, check out the music production club. We're having a lot of fun over there and it'd be great to have you. Thank you very much and have a great day.

Beach Sounds
Ableton Live Pack

I recorded a wide range of sounds at a Long Island beach and turned them into Ableton Live Instrument Racks and Drum Racks.

• 4 Melodic Instrument Racks

• 1 Percussive Drum Rack

Download them here to use in your next piece of music!

Requires Ableton Live 12.2 Intro or Above.

Found Sounds Speedrun Challenge For Ableton’s Discord

I created a Speedrun Challenge for Ableton’s Official Discord in which I ask you to set a timer for 10 minutes and record any interesting sounds you can find. From there I show you how to turn those sounds into Drum Racks, melodic instruments, sound effects and more. Finally, I show you how to use those instruments to create a song. The video series is embedded below.

Join Ableton’s Discord and participate in the Speedrun Challenge! Share your work and hear what other people have created!

My Beach Sounds Instruments