Welcome to the most irregular episode of the How do you know? podcast to date!

Change has been brewing beneath the surface and it’s the unmatched Louis Grenier and his workshop – Stand The F*ck Out (STFO) – that played a huge role in materializing that transformation.

What you see today on my website is the result of several months of work that runs deep. During STFO, I refined my business strategy, the assets I bring to the table, and defined the type of customers I want to work with. The workshop accelerated these realizations and my acting on them by months – nay, years!

Every prompt and conversation chipped away at my self-doubt and gave me the clarity and confidence to articulate what I want to do next and what I don’t want to do next.

Because I’ve grown as a person through other people’s stories and kindness, I’m sharing the decisions that got me here so they may serve you on your journey.

I flipped the script on this episode to give you a sincere perspective of what it took to define and embrace my position in the market and the fears I’m still battling.

I knew it wouldn’t be as good without a conversation partner who wouldn’t let me off the hook. So I’m thankful that Louis helped me trace my steps to when I started freelancing and talk about the baggage I brought with me. We also stopped along the way to unpack the inflection points where I adjusted my course and what that felt like.

Today, I reached a place where I feel like myself more than I’ve ever felt. Even if this self-coherence didn’t come cheap, all the effort was worth it! I’m not nearly done, perfect, or complete but I have a stronger strategy for the endless chess game between myself and me.

That’s why the main topic of this conversation is self-limiting beliefs and how they shape your life, work, and self-perception.

“People don’t realize that their beliefs are responsible for a lot of stuff, for a lot of inaction. They take those beliefs for granted, for gospel, when, in fact, they’re not.”

Listen to this episode to learn:

• Why I decided to go on my own and build a freelancing business [2:15]
• How you may be doing your people a disservice by letting your self-limiting beliefs hold you back from showing up for them [8:17]
• How my belief system held me back and delayed my crossover into freelancing by months [10:21]
• How to use the self-coaching model to change the beliefs at the top so you can shift your feelings, behavior, and the results they produce [11:36]
• How I use Twitter to expand my perspective, make friends, and feed my brain with good ideas [14:00]
• Why Louis built STFO for people who didn’t believe in themselves as much as they should in saturated markets where you can find a lot of direct competitors [20:24]
• What stopped me from giving up on my non-cybersecurity clients and how I eventually learn to say no [21:49]
• How I cope with the imposter syndrome that comes with working in the cybersecurity industry in a non-technical role [26:00]
• What I took from Louis’ Stand The F*ck Out workshop [32:00]
• Louis’ challenge for the next stage of my professional evolution and a question you may want to ask yourself [42:44]
• What surprised me the most about Stand The F*ck Out and why it set a new standard from what I expect of high-intensity workshops [46:30]

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• To level up in any way, we need to acknowledge and work to self-limiting beliefs
• Deconstructing our beliefs is difficult because we can rarely do it alone. We’re not trained for it and too biased and self-involved to see them clearly.
• Most people tend to focus on tasks that are not that important to avoid the tasks that matter the most and you need help to break that cycle.

“You can spend months, even years, pretending to be an entrepreneur.”

• Shifting or narrowing your focus may make you feel like you’re letting people down. If you don’t do it, you’ll let yourself down and maybe do those people a disservice as well.
• Findings an experience, a guide, a group of people that helps you cross the chasm between knowing what you have to do and actually doing it is life-changing!
• Working with peers (for me it was other freelancers) can show you where you do well and where you need to improve in a way that boosts self-confidence and determines you to act.
• Learn to say no and seeing that nothing bad happens when you do is incredibly freeing!
  Transformation doesn’t have to take a long time. You just need the right people to guide you, push you, and support you.
• Becoming rooted in yourself and what you stand doesn’t require an epiphany but rather a process you can learn, practice, and improve as you go along. Finding the people who will teach you that process and keep you accountable for following it is truly precious

About Louis Grenier:

Louis fights marketing bullshit with radical differentiation full time.

As the creator of the Everyone Hates Marketers podcast and newsletter and the Stand The F*ck Out workshop, he educates and moves into action marketing specialists from around the world.

His contrarian approach and his remarkable knack for exposing and challenging bullshit – with empathy and generosity – make him one of my favorite people in the industry and beyond.

I was lucky to have Louis on the podcast in 2018 and learn from him even before that, as he’s one of the most strategic, smart, and kindhearted people I know. Watching him do the work, grow, and empower others has had a transformative effect on my work and belief system.

Wherever you choose to follow him, I guarantee you’ll get something that helps you move the needle and inch closer to where you want to go (or figure what that is if it’s still a bit foggy).

Connect with Louis:

• Everyone Hates Marketers website
• Everyone Hates Marketers podcast
• Stand The F*ck Out workshop
• LinkedIn
• Twitter

People & resources mentioned in the episode:

• Marijana Kay
• Elise Dopson
• Master Certified Coach Brooke Castillo
• The self-coaching model guide
• Radical Candor by Kim Malone Scott

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

One of the things I love the most about hackers (who are NOT the same as cybercriminals) is that they think – and act – differently.

They question the why behind everything, they challenge the status quo (inspiring me to lean more into that too), and they expose our blind spots.

James Linton, my guest for this episode, is one of those people.

He discovered his inclinations for information security almost accidentally, while experimenting with his UX designer abilities and pursuing his curiosity. One thing led to another and now his Wikipedia page leads with this:

“James Linton is a social engineer and email prankster known for duping high profile celebrities and politicians.”

But that’s just a moment in his evolution as a human – and as an information security professional. I found out the rest from James himself, who openly shared his experience of finding a way to harness his abilities to help others while also living and working on his terms.

We talked about the struggles he went through and the decisions he made along the way, highlighting how we can make our psychology work for us instead of against us.

Listen to this episode to learn:

• • A memorable technique to make people aware that protecting their private data is essential [25:56]
  • What Inbox Hypnotism is and how we can recognize it before it affects us professionally and emotionally [33:02]
  • How cybercriminals operate in social media and how we can manage the risks [34:16]
  • How education around data privacy keeps our head clear and helps us make better decisions [20:18]
  • Insights into James’ work in cybersecurity and behind-the-scenes events from his experience of infiltrating celebrities’ inboxes. [01:03:14]

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• When you feel that you can’t make a difference through your job and gain satisfaction, it’s time to change your path.
• We become aware of the real impact of cybercrime when it happens to us or someone close to us.
• Being mindful of what you post on social media is something for which your future self will thank you.
• Cybercrime affects people emotionally and lowers their self-esteem as it creates confusion about what is real and what is not
• Seeing yourself through a hacker’s eyes helps you understand why your data privacy truly matters
• All the decisions we make for our safety impact our loved ones – either positively or negatively.

About James Linton:

While working in advertising as a UX designer, James was really keen on the potential of design and development to trigger reactions in other people. Because, at one point, his whole job eroded to a routine that made him feel a bit stuck, he started to lean into his interests.

With a genuine desire to make a difference for his loved ones and for his professional ecosystem, James decides to experiment with email spoofing (a tactic used to send emails that appear to come from someone other than the real sender). Through self-education, he gradually improved his critical thinking by layering tactics and experience. James now works on programs that teach others how to counteract cybercriminal acts that target your inbox.

As humans, we usually believe in our own reality and Jame’s mission is to explore all the risks beyond that bubble. The main goal of his job, as he says, is not to explain to people what they can experience if they aren’t aware, but to prove to them all the possible consequences that can result from a single click.

Education in data security and privacy is truly effective when you practice what you learn. This is the reason it’s worth paying attention to James’ useful advice, so you can build it into your behavior.

His whole career path is truly fascinating. There’s a lot to learn from how James found a way to build a satisfying job for himself so he can make a big difference and leave people more self-aware, safer, and more confident.

As his LinkedIn profile says, James works as the “Human” of “The Whole” Company to encourage cybersecurity awareness.

Connect with James Linton:

• His website
• LinkedIn
• Twitter
• His Wikipedia page
• How to prank the rich and powerful without really trying
• The serious side of pranking

Resources mentioned in the episode:

• Email gateways
• Cyberattack attribution
• Inbox Hypnotism
• Scam websites
• Phishing
• Spoofing

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Questioning your beliefs is one of the most powerful ways to grow as a person.

It builds mental flexibility, strengthens your critical thinking, and helps you understand the differences between what you think the world should be like and what it’s actually like.

“But why should I put myself through this, Andra?
There’s already too much conflict in the world I need to deal with right now!”

Fair question!

My answer is this: working with your own thoughts and feelings and understanding how they draw from and plug into the bigger context we’re part of helps you become more resilient. Being able to differentiate between what you can control and what you can’t, makes you calmer. Realizing the influence of your cultural baggage helps you offload some of (self-applied) pressure.

This episode with an international keynote speaker and bestselling author Tim Ash is the perfect opportunity to experiment with all of these things and more.

Spend less than an hour with me and Tim and you might just see the madness around you with a clearer perspective, making better decisions as a result.

About Tim Ash:

Who else could have started this episode with a memorable laugh other than Tim Ash?

From the very first moments, his energy and his great sense of humor overflow into any listener’s life. As we go through the many nuances of personality-building, Tim takes us on a short journey to explore the diversity of ideas and mentalities that coexist all over the globe.

Thanks to his expertise in consumer and user psychology, he speaks effortlessly about the impact of our emotions, brain cells, and gut feeling. These are truly some of the most influential factors in our decision-making process. Looking at how they work together, Tim touches on the importance of being a good member of your “tribe”, how our culture spreads, and why external perceptions can be substantially different than ours.

By diving deep into evolutionary psychology and harnessing his keen sense of observation, Tim Ash built a remarkable career as a digital marketer and as an accomplished author. That’s why he’s a sought-after international keynote speaker and has been a guest at over 200 events across four continents, including massive stages with over 12,000 attendees.

Tim is also the bestselling author of Unleash Your Primal Brain and Landing Page Optimization, which sold over 50,000 copies sold worldwide and got translated into 6 languages.

His books and body of work also draw from the 19 years he spent as the co-founder and CEO of SiteTuners – a strategic digital optimization agency. For almost two decades, he developed deep expertise in user-centered design, persuasion, understanding consumer behavior, neuromarketing, and landing page testing. He applied all of that while working with companies like Google, Expedia, American Express, Canon, Symantec, Intuit, Humana, Siemens, and Cisco.

What I really appreciate about Tim is his dedication to sharing all his knowledge and putting it to work – constantly. He published over 100 articles about digital growth, he did the Landing Page Optimization Podcast with over 130 episodes, and he’s also a certified Tai Chi instructor, a poet, painter, and an avid photographer.

During our conversation, I could see all of his diverse experiences converging and surfacing valuable life lessons we can all use to elevate our decisions and way of life.

Tim Ash is a great voice that you need to hear to build more positivity and momentum towards all the good things you want to develop in your life. Start by hitting the play button:

Listen to this episode to learn:

1. What your gut feeling really is (from someone with a strong understanding of neuroscience) and how it guides us in making the right choices
2. Plenty of reasons why a good night’s rest makes you more efficient and active during the day
3. The importance of including gratitude in your evening routine for much better sleep and a healthier mind.
4. Two essential factors that influence your decisions and help you live your life more fully
5. How empathy makes you a wiser decision-maker (and generally a better person)
6. How having a more conservative or more progressive personality influences your life and the choices that shape it.

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• From an anthropological perspective, our personality is influenced by all of the interactions we have within the groups to which we belong.
• Any big decision we make is based on our deep and impactful emotional involvement (no matter how much we try to be entirely rational – which is impossible).
• Two people can look at the same thing and see a completely different thing which influences their choices.
• Our nation and culture have a strong impact on our choices and perspective of life. Understanding another mentality can broaden our mental and emotional range, giving us new perspectives that make us savvier decision-makers.
• In times of uncertainty, people rely on their cultural background as a manifestation of their built-in survival instinct.
• The last hour before sleep affects our rest time more than any other event during the day.

Connect with Tim Ash:

• Tim’s website
• Twitter
• LinkedIn
• Unleash Your Primal Brain – the website

Resources mentioned in the episode:

• Podcast: Landing Page Optimization Podcast
• Book: Unleash Your Primal Brain
• Book: Hooked by Nir Eyal
• Book: Indistractable by Nir Eyal
• Talk – Powerful Persuasion with Tim Ash and Andra Zaharia

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

There’s an important distinction that can be very helpful for how you evaluate your actions and what goes on in your life.

Feelings are not facts.

I started thinking about this while reading Rand Fishkin’s “Lost and Founder”. In the book, he transparently shares his struggles with anxiety and depression and marks this realization as an important change in perspective.

As educated people engaged in a process of lifelong learning, we find this statement obvious. However, like many obvious ideas, it’s not until we unpack its implications that we realize how important it is to apply this distinction in our daily lives.

There are several important aspects to the “feelings are not facts” idea that are worth thinking about.

What goes wrong when you mistake feelings for facts

The first relates to the dangers of emotional reasoning.

Emotional reasoning is a cognitive process by which a person concludes that his/her emotional reaction proves something is true, regardless of the observed evidence.

People that often rely on emotional reasoning are biased and frequently draw incorrect conclusions based on their distorted perception of an event. Their reaction to stressful situations amplifies issues and problems instead of trying to objectively and constructively solve them.

I have someone in my close family who is a textbook example of how emotional reasoning not only makes her life more difficult but actually leads her to experience somatization.

Because she relies on emotional reasoning a lot, it affects her decision-making process and her reactions to the point where stress intensifies until it affects her physical health.

I also experienced this firsthand when I was struggling with depression.

Not only were my body and mind in a constant state of heightened anxiety but I was under the strong impression that because everything felt bad and scary, it really was bad and dangerous.

These cognitive distortions are risky and can harm us in a very real way.

When we treat feelings as facts:

• We feel there’s no need to test our conclusions
• We selectively look for facts that support our feelings and conclusions (confirmation bias)
• We might even reject facts altogether (“I know I’m right”)
• We become more extreme and more certain in our views, developing blindness to constructive debate, nuance, and complex dimensions
• We project behaviors and reactions onto others based on our feelings.

This is our brain on autopilot. Emotions have such a powerful impact on how we perceive the world and ourselves because they came first. From an evolutionary standpoint, the limbic system was the first to form, while our prefrontal cortex, that governs our reasoning, developed later.

That’s why we oftentimes fall back to emotions in crisis situations. Thinking objectively doesn’t come naturally to humans, so it’s up to us to override this automatism and cultivate the habit of thinking in an unbiased manner.

Feelings are not facts.

Here’s what they actually are (according to science).

In her TED talk, psychology professor Lisa Feldman Barrett reveals one of the most interesting findings of her 25 years of studying emotions:

Emotions are guesses.

Here are two of the most interesting snippets from her talk:

“[…] the bottom line is that emotions are not built into your brain at birth. They are just built.”

“Predictions are basically the way your brain works. It’s business as usual for your brain. Predictions are the basis of every experience that you have. They are the basis of every action that you take. In fact, predictions are what allow you to understand the words that I’m speaking as they come out of my —

Audience: Mouth. Lisa Feldman Barrett: Mouth. Exactly.

Predictions are primal. They help us to make sense of the world in a quick and efficient way. So your brain does not react to the world. Using past experience, your brain predicts and constructs your experience of the world.”

I highly recommend watching the entire talk for context and more useful insights:

How all of this impacts your decision-making process

Now don’t get me wrong: I’m not advocating for becoming soulless, emotionless robots. We couldn’t even if we wanted to. Our limbic system won’t allow it.

What I’m keen on is figuring out how to strike a healthy balance between these two ways of making decisions.

Enter the dual process theory.

“The dual process account asserts that human beings have two separate methods for moral reasoning. The first refers to intuitive or instinctual responses to moral violations. These responses are implicit and the factors affecting them may be consciously inaccessible. Greene asserts that these responses are supported by emotional activation.

The second method refers to conscious, controlled reasoning processes. These processes ignore the emotional aspects of decision making, instead focusing on maximizing gain or obtaining the most desirable overall outcome.

In everyday decision making, most decisions use one or other system, but in moral dilemmas in which an individual must compromise between violating moral rules and maximizing overall good, the systems come into conflict.”

One of the implications is that, in everyday situations, we decide based on feelings and then use reasoning to build a supporting argument for our choices. But the facts we choose are not commanded by our rationality but rather by the emotions which, as we just learned, are guesses about how the world works.

And there’s one last thing that I found worth mentioning.

Why we shouldn’t treat feelings as facts: a practical example

Neuroscience also reveals that our brains react to threats to our social status as it would to actual pain.

Here’s how it works:

When others disagree with our opinions or decisions (just recall your last social media feud), it activates our emotions because we experience what feels like real pain.

“Neuroscientists in Italy have discovered that “social pain” activates the same brain regions as physical pain. […]

Social pain is caused by events such as feeling excluded from social connections or activities, rejection, bullying, the sickness or death of a loved one, a romantic break-up…”

Another medical paper called “Social pain and physical pain: shared paths to resilience” highlights the same:

“Emerging neuroscience and psychological evidence suggests a substantial overlap between physical pain and social pain, which includes commonalities in genetic variants, inflammatory responses and neural pathways.

Social pain, like physical pain, may serve an adaptive evolutionary function, which may explain its similarities with physical pain. […]

Social factors may increase vulnerability to chronic pain via both focal exposure to major life stressors (e.g., trauma) and through chronic exposure to socially painful situations (e.g., ostracism, isolation and prolonged social conflict).”

So when we experience stress, our body feels the pain and it causes us to get physically sick (which, in turn, leads to a poor mental state that goes on to build a vicious cycle). Understanding this and learning to manage our emotions becomes key to our health.

An increasing number of people are talking about the real, quantifiable, and scientifically proven damage that social media inflicts on us as individuals and as a society. This reality has become painfully true in the last few years and it is bound to intensify.

If only for the sake of remaining sane, healthy, and enjoying our lives in this increasingly complex world, it is worth making an effort to build a mindset that can support us.

The path I personally strive for balance.

Of course, feelings are not bad. They are actually a core human trait but they’re only half of what it takes to make good decisions.

I believe we can have the best of both worlds if we learn to integrate our emotions and our actions in a way that helps us thrive.

There are many things I didn’t know about myself until I started working with a coach. Things like my unreasonable expectations towards myself as to how I handle difficult situations (such as a parent being ill) or my tendency to take on excessive responsibility for things that don’t fall within my circle of control.

One of the best parts of coaching is that you get to see your habits, behaviors, and mental patterns in a mirror. This dynamic is deeply clarifying. For example, it made me see that some bad things weren’t as dramatic as I thought. It also enabled me to better internalize the good things in my life.

Doing this over and over (along with other practical exercises such as self-reflection), I became more clear-headed. My choices improved, I became more confident in my decision-making process, and I generally found it increasingly easier to navigate uncertainty and complexity.

Today’s episode is focused on this crucial topic: our process for making decisions and how we can pick and choose ideas, experiences, and people to help us improve it so that we elevate multiple aspects of our lives.

Before you press play, start with this idea my guest, Erno Hannink, shared: don’t evaluate the result of your decisions but focus on the thought process behind it. You’ll soon understand why that makes a huge difference.

About Erno Hannink:

Erno is the kind of person who exudes optimism and he proved it once again during our conversation. Even when confronted with tough times and difficult decisions, as we all are these days, he still focuses on mind and body health.

Using his knowledge of neuroscience, Erno cultivates the deeply positive effects of self-control to make the best decisions. And this ability comes from actions, not theory. Erno stands for an active life, getting enough quality sleep, choosing fresh vegetables, and other small and consistent choices that increase your quality of life.

The best part of this episode is that you get truly helpful pieces of advice from an experienced professional.

Leveraging his business experience, Erno became a coach to help entrepreneurs make their best decisions. Whether through his sessions or on the football field, where he serves as referee, Erno knows and practices the importance of having a coach and being one to others. Using coaching to get an objective perspective, Erno became aware of some bad habits that kept him from succeeding and found the right approach to replace them with new, better ones.

I know from experience that a coach guides you to a place of clarity and self-awareness, unlocking options that get you closer to your goals. However different your context may be, I can honestly say the same principles work for everyone. In this episode, you can explore that in your own time.

A good listener, a great advisor, and a very present human-being, Erno Hannink is the coach you need for a short-term mood boost and for the long-term changes you need to achieve your business and life goals!

Listen to this episode to learn:

• How being more present helps you make better decisions
• How to feel better during stressful situations
• The influence of good sleep and good nutrition for better decisions
• Why imagining worst-case scenarios helps you get in control of your life
• The reason we all need a coach to correct our bad habits
• How keeping a “decision book” can guide you to make good choices

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• The only thing you can control is your reaction to external events.
• Focusing more on our hobbies and less on external issues helps strengthen our mind-body connection.
• No matter what time of day you work out, it helps you get better sleep. With a rested mind, you get more clarity to make better decisions.
• A coach observes your unconscious and damaging habits and suggests a better route to achieve your most meaningful goals.
• Don’t evaluate the result of decisions but focus on your decision-making process. Wondering how to do that? Create a decision book to keep track of your choices. Use it to analyze the best and the worst things that can happen so you can expand your options and perspective.

Connect with Erno:

• LinkedIn
• Twitter
• Erno’s podcast and website

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Full episode transcript:

Andra Zaharia: My guest today is the founder of ernohannik.com, business coach for entrepreneurs and published author. He helps other entrepreneurs make the right decisions step-by-step, so they can create a healthy growth engine and the navel, their businesses to run themselves. After building his Dutch website and blog or having that ML and a community around him, he expanded his mission internationally. Erno is a starter, a builder, a changer.
He brought a number of international events through the Netherlands, such as aboard camp and social media club. He rallied people to create change by leveling up and helping others do the same. He now works with entrepreneurs to help them make decision in their best interests, so they can immediately get more freedom. We talked about what helps people make better decisions on their own, but being refereed, taught him about making difficult choices and why you should always be close to the action and how that translates into everything you do. Plus, Erno also shared his framework for making better decisions. So, full disclosure I’ve been working with Erno for almost two months on building my goal setting muscle. I’ve seen tremendous improvement in my focus, follow through internal alignment and productivity. So, because of his continued support, I know ship faster, better work, and I enjoy it a lot more. I hope these episodes help you advance on your own self-growth path. And I can’t wait for you to discover everything that you can learn from this conversation. Erno, welcome to the “How do you know podcast”. Very thrilled about our conversation today? We’ve had many similar to them in one way or another, and I’m very curious, very excited to share your wisdom, and your incredible experience with the listeners of this book. Yes, so, welcome!

Erno Hannink: Thank you very much, Andra!

So, we’re going to jump straight into it and have a question that’s not necessarily comfortable, but hopefully we’ll get something to start with something that many people I think will resonate with. So, what would you say was the most difficult decision you’ve had to make this year?

Erno Hannink: This year? Oh my Gosh. I don’t think it was really a decision. It was more like a conversation, which wasn’t easy. As we know now, we are in the midst of the Corona. Virus situation and in March, it was the beginning of beginning in Europe. It started, I think it was like in February, maybe early January in Italy, some December in China. And, of course it feels right far away. It feels like at the other end of the world, China, and then, okay, it hits Europe and Italy. Okay. still far away. And slowly, you notice it’s coming towards the Netherlands. You see the first cases here too. Then, of course, there were conversations of lockdown, which was the situation that they enforced in China, in the area where the virus was originated. And, so they started talking about that too in Netherlands, about a possible lockdown. So that Friday night, it was actually Saturday morning, really early. I thought it was like in the middle of the night when I woke up and I started thinking about this. This idea of lockdown of what that would mean? What are the implications for me, for my family, for my business, for everything? And I also had a conversation with another entrepreneur just a couple of, I think, two weeks earlier. And we talked about a lot of things and not about the lockdown, but about drawing up a worst-case scenario. So, I thought about, so what is the worst-case scenario? For my family, if we go in and lock that. So, I painted this picture in my head and then I got out of bed because after like 45 minutes in bed and not getting back to sleep, I figured. So, let’s get this out on paper. And so, I can get it out of my hand and I started writing down. So, what happens if, for example, when everybody in my family gets sick or what if we all have a lockdown and we can’t work, so there’s no income. What does it mean if there’s no income? How much money do we have? How much money do we have in the bank? How much savings do we have? How much do I need, do we need about-ish, in a month? So, how much time do we have with the money that we have saved? How many months can we go on? And I came to the conclusion that’s okay. So I don’t have to worry right now because we can count on like a year and a half, easily when there’s no money coming in, none at all. And so, then I, the next morning and Saturday, I was like in the lunchtime, I started talking about this with my family on, on the lunch table. Cause my son was there and only he’s his own room, in another city. And so, I started asking, so what do we expect? A lockdown. Do you think that’s a real thing? Do you think that will happen? And we all agreed. Yeah. That this could be a big thing next week. That one, when they have the press conference, they would probably, they could be announcing electon. Okay. So, if this happens, what will you do, Justin? My son, will you come here? Will you stay in Mayfair? Which is the other city? No, he’s definitely going to stay at his own place. Okay… My mom, my wife was kind of sad when he said that, because I don’t know how long we are going to be in lockdown. “How long are we going to miss you?” But you know, that was his decision and it was clear that what’s a good thing it was out in the open. And then I started talking about money. So, what happens if we don’t have any money? So, everything else, what happens after the lockdown? Any money we make is like a plus from the worst situation that I could imagine. So, from then on, it actually got just easier. My wife has a job and she got more hours. Some way I lost a lot of clients. The day after the lockdown was announced, my revenue was cut like 70%, so it had a huge impact on my business. But still, we are safe. We haven’t got ill, we don’t have the virus in our family, direct family. I’m very careful with visiting my parents.
So it’s all tough decisions. And I think it’s, it’s the toughest one in this crazy year, beginning that you decide to make this worst-case scenario and think about what are the implication of this lockdown. And in the end, the lockdown was not that long, but still, it wasn’t easy. And now we are again in the new lockdown.

Andra Zaharia: I know what you mean and thank you for sharing that with us, especially because I think that so many people went or are going through or might go through again the situation and the way I think that a way that you impact this, this source of anxiety, of uncertainty, of fear for some people is a very good example that we could follow to kind of get more clarity ourselves. I found a lot of people, especially with all the pressure, all the information, everything that’s going on, I’ve seen their language that they sometimes tend to generalize or kind of have their thinking distorted by some other bias. Because I’ve been very lucky to be able to go to coaching and therapy, and I learned to unpack this anxiety and to break it down and see what’s really at the end of it, I tried to kind of help them do the same. Your example is so important because it teaches us that we can better navigate uncertainty if we’re actually realistic about what we need, what we can achieve, what our resources are and just try to figure out exactly like you said, what’s the worst thing that can happen. I think that’s basically the thing that the Stoics used to do as well. Imagine your worst-case scenario. And I know that you’re very familiar and you work with these principles, imagine your worst-case scenario and then build it up from there. And you’ll see that when that worst case scenario doesn’t necessarily happen or even if it does, you’re prepared, but then it gives you that freedom to live your life and continue to make choices and continue to just do your best day after day and, and not get stuck. Because I also see a lot of people that have gotten sock and, what I hope for them, if they’re listening to this podcast is that they keep an open mind so they can learn from you and this conversation and take what they need to kind of move forward, while accepting the reality. And I know that’s a very, very difficult thing to do this year, especially this year. So again, thank you for sharing that. That was very personal, very authentic and sincere. So, I definitely think that a lot of people will empathize with it. So, you’ve had all these things happen to you, but every time I talk to you, you’re so full of energy and optimism while still remaining pragmatic and deeply anchored into some very important values and principles. So, I wanted to understand a little bit of what makes your mindset. What built it as you progress through your various roles and through different ways of working with people. Tell me a bit about that.

Erno Hannink: Well, I think that you already mentioned, so it was this, is like the engine for me, the operating system. That’s a better word. The “operating system”. So, the operating system still is as it is. It is a ancient philosophy from 300 years before the birth of Christ. And it is, I think there are many principles in there. There are a lot of things that you can get from it but the most important thing that I get from it is that there was nothing that you can control. The only thing that you have in your control is the way you react to things. So how you respond to things. So, anything can happen. Any Corona breaks out, that’s something you can’t control. Hopefully, in the future we can get better control then because it has to do with the livestock and everything. So we need to change something there. But that takes time and it’s, and it’s, there’s a lot of things I have no control on that. That’s government things. That’s politics. I don’t control that and I can’t get upset from it. I can say “So, this is a bad thing happening and the government is causing, they don’t do anything about.” I can blame others. I can get upset, I can get frustrated angry, sad, but that doesn’t really help me. What I can control is how I respond to this kind of messages. Actually, what I also do is I don’t follow the news a lot, so I don’t watch the news on the TV. I’m listening to the news on a radio. I don’t read newspapers. I tend to avoid timelines on Twitter and LinkedIn, for example, as much as possible, in these times, because a lot of polarization, like you just said before, because it just makes you sad or frustrated or angry and, and there’s nothing you can do about it. So, what I do is just focus on the things that I can control, the things that I can do to support the things that I love doing, that I have value for me. That I offer a value for other people that I work with and things that I like to do. So, a couple of things I like to do for example, is to read, learn, have conversations with people in the podcast like you and write. Because by writing I order my thoughts on what I’ve been doing, reading of what I’ve been hearing, listening to and learning from people. And I tried to remix it to the things that how I use it or how I can use it or how I see other people using it. And that’s, I think is, the thing that I can do. I can write every day, that’s on the mat. I control it. There’s nobody that can stop me from doing that, right? So, that’s something I can do. That’s the same thing with sleep. I can go to bed on time, because sleep is very important in your health. And I can exercise whenever I want, because the exercise you could be just walking on spat, you could be running, you can do all kind of exercise where you don’t need equipment. You don’t need a school. You don’t need a teacher. You don’t need anything. You just do it right. Running or walking out in the woods, that’s just healthy. Then it’s good for your mind. It’s good for your body. And these are just very basic things that you can do to feel better, to have a basis where you can build the rest of it.

Andra Zaharia: That is so, so helpful. I can help Latino nod throughout your answer and why you were talking about these things. For such a long time I saw this in myself as I did, especially like to emphasize the part about sleep. So, every time I would have poor quality sleep because I didn’t get enough sleep or good quality sleep because I was either stressed out or ate too late or things like that, I could notice that the next day I was more irritable It was easier for someone to just step on all the buttons, step on my toes. it was the, let’s say, the defensive mechanisms and the primal brain would just shout and take control so much easier than when I’m well-rested and because we’ve been working together I just… That idea of eight hours in bed, seven hours of sleep really stayed with me so well, I’ve seen a tremendous increase in my mood, my level of energy, my ability to focus, even in my appetite, I don’t have cravings anymore. And so many other things just got self-regulated simply because I got better sleep. So that’s incredible. The things that you mentioned people might think that they know them like, “Yeah, I know I should exercise and I should sleep or I know I should do all these things”, but it doesn’t make a difference until you actually start practicing them. And when you do, and when you see the results, you’ll understand that there’s so much more to them than checking things off a checklist. And I really hope that people just try at least one of these things and just like, start with sleep. Just get better. Yeah.

Erno Hannink: Yeah. I think sleep is the most important one. Of course, there are a lot of noise in the world with entrepreneurs that want to be building like startups or, growing their business in huge businesses have venture capitalists, following them, chasing them to make more money, to get more users and everything. And they work like really hard. I just read a story about this morning on Twitter. The thing is that there’s only so much work that you can do. I know the guy that I love talking about this, is Gary Vaynerchuk. I love him. But he has a lot of focus on just working like 14 hours a day, but I don’t, I don’t believe that part for me. I mean, for him it’s okay. I don’t judge him, but for me that that doesn’t work. So, sleep is an important part of rejuvenation. So, for resetting your brain for, coping with the things that happened to you during the day. So, there’s a lot of things going on in your brain while you’re asleep. You dream, you memorize things, you clear your memory. There’s a lot of things going on and all these phases of your sleep. So, I like to get up quite early in the morning. Because for me it’s I like it when it’s quiet in the house and I can just work in my office when there’s no noises, of course in the winter, it’s more difficult because it’s dark. It’s not that it’s not good for your rhythm.

Andra Zaharia: The circadian rhythm. Yeah.

Erno Hannink: Right. So, it will be a lot better if you had a lot of light right away in the morning to wake up, but that in the winter it’s pretty difficult, but I get up like somewhere between five and six. And when you do that, that means that you have to get in bed, hopefully, get some sleep around 9:00 – 9:30 somewhere.
And that sounds to a lot of people like that’s not social, that’s, that’s not normal. It might be not so social, but tell me what you are doing in the evening. Most of them just watching TV and there’s not a lot of stuff that you learned from the TV. I’d rather read books in the morning. And nobody watches TV in the morning when they get about five. So, it’s a lot more effective when you learn in the morning. Also, when you watch TV in the evening or you start, you’re still working on your laptop and evening before you go to bed, then have troubles with the lights on your eyes. So, it takes a while before you really get into deep sleep. So, sleep is an important part and what I’m trying to say is if you want to get early and have a lot of your day just go to bed earlier. That’s an important part.

Andra Zaharia: And I think that this is kind of a very good place to start. Let’s say, experimenting with getting better sleep and sleeping more simply because there are a lot of social activities that are not happening. So, you might as well take the advantage to, let’s say of the situation of your constraints and work with them to set yourself up for success by developing these habits, which are so normal and so important to us.

Erno Hannink: And if you combine it with exercise, right? So, if you start exercising, the good thing of exercise is it makes you physically tired, so it helps you to become more tired. So, once you start doing the physical workouts and it doesn’t really matter what time of day you do that, it just means you also get better sleep. The physical workout helps you to clear your mind at that point, but also it makes your body tired, that you fall sooner into sleep and faster to sleep. And it also helps you to sleep deeper. So, these two combinations, including eating well. And eating well is easy if you had enough sleep. If you didn’t have enough sleep, your willpower is quite low, the amount of willpower that you have. So, it becomes a lot easier to grab some snacks or some fast food or whatever, to quiet down your hunger, but it really doesn’t feed your body. So, I don’t have to say you have to eat all these very difficult stuffs, but eat vegetables. Right? So, just fresh vegetables and rice or potatoes or whatever. It’s important to you. That’s a lot better than going to McDonald’s or whatever

Andra Zaharia: It absolutely is.

Erno Hannink: So, this three-food exercise, they…

Andra Zaharia: They totally are. And what’s interesting is that when you think about decision making, you don’t necessarily think about these things. But I think, from what I learned from you, from what I’ve studied myself, decisions happen when you set yourself in a context where you can make those good choices, they don’t just happen. You have to kind of internalize some things about yourself, about the world that you live in, about how you think, how other people think, to be able to make those good choices consistently. I wanted to go back in this respect and kind of dig into a factor that you mentioned earlier. So, the startup world, you work with a lot of entrepreneurs who build startups or other types of companies. And especially in the startup world, the main story is that you have to hustle, you have to grow fast, you have to like doing some checklists, like work 80 hour/weeks and put it in everything. You have to work hard, play hard, all of those cliches. That sort of people tell themselves, might lead them to make wrong choices or to act in ways that don’t align with themselves. So, I’m curious if you could share like some of the stories that you’ve seen in people, kind of operating in this context and how they manage to kind of change the story that they’re telling themselves and start making choices that are more aligned with them and not with the status quo.

Erno Hannink: I think that the problem is, of course, when you start your business and you have a sort of expertise and your business is focused around expertise. So, you offer your services, build on this expertise that you have and so the one thing that you do that you sell to customers is your expertise. So that means your hours. You have to make hours, your hours to satisfy the client, do the work and to get paid. So, your payment is in close relationship with the number of hours that you work. Then at some point, because I work a lot with people that have services and not in the software industry to deliver really services, right? So sometimes it goes well, they get more clients that they can handle on their own. So, they’re going to hire somebody else. They’re going to hire a second person that probably does about the same thing that they can do and maybe something new, but they also work an hour. They also have working hourly basis. They charge, they are the services and so this company like kind of grows in this kind of way. So, they hire similar people, they add similar services and they sell their hours. That means that the entrepreneur or the owner of the company feels that the revenue and also the profit of the company is closely related to the number of hours that they work. And, at some point they will hire like an assistant or somebody who answers the phone or somebody who’s doing the bookkeeping. So, somebody who is not involved with work that is being charged to the client. So now it all gets skewed. It all gets difficult because now you have somebody in the office that’s really else is working for to get her paid or him paid and they don’t work for the client. And the whole thing has gotten upset and difficult for them not to feel and discover how this work and the internet is just continually working more and more hours to get everything fixed and done.
The assistant is looking for help because they don’t understand everything that they know they need to do the work because the owner has been doing all this stuff before. So now I only learn how he or she can transfer a part of that work to the assistant or even better some of the work they do for clients to their colleagues.
So, they get freed up for more important stuff for the business, like thinking about new employees or new services or getting new clients. So, they have to shift to doing non-billable work, doing work and not getting paid for it, but it’s a really scary situation because that means that the human hours that they will work less. They will have less income and they don’t have trust and probably also not a very booking system at that time that they know this is affordable This can happen. So, this is when I often come in, because this is a situation where they work like 80 hours a week, the partner hates them. Not really, but now they don’t think they are doing the right thing. They missed the weekend, they, they work all the time and they don’t get enough sleep. They work a lot. They network in the evenings and then, whatever stuff wasn’t getting done in the office during the day, they do it in the evening or in the weekend at home. So, they work all the time. And, they feel it’s not right, but it’s the only way they know. They just know. I needed to put more hours in because I have like 10 colleagues. I need to support them now. And what I do then is small steps. Most of the people work on stuff that’s important, but also urgent, right? Eyes, the eyes now and matrix. And in this quadrant, most of the infamous, when they small work in everything, that’s burgeoned and important. What I want them to do is start working a little bit on important, but not urgent, so that you work ahead, so that you have things to get done before tomorrow. And then, slowly we teach them habits that they can do like starting, focusing on three tasks during the day, instead of like 15 on your to-do list because you don’t get them all done anyway. So, let’s just focus on the three most important ones so that, if you got it in a day, you are sure that you finish those three and you go happy home, and then you get more room, you get more space, more mental space, but also more time to focus on the bigger decisions. And then you also see that you don’t need to work on Saturday because you have some of the stuff already done on Thursday or Friday. And then the family sees you again and you find it good to eat together again. So then, slowly they experience. Okay, so I can do this and that. What I also try to do sometimes is when they really don’t see the beginning. I just make a small calculation with them. So, I asked them “How much is the revenue right now? So, what is the total cost of everything? So, this is your profit, right? So, if this is your profit, how much do you make?” And usually, it’s lower than the profit. So, if you don’t work, you can still lift from the profit, right? And it takes a while and they see it, but they don’t trust it yet.
But it helps them to see, okay, slowly I could do this. I could work a lot less billable hours work on the other stuff, grow the company. And still have enough money.

Andra Zaharia: It definitely is a process and I love how you emphasize building self-trust. I think that’s such an important part. You know, entrepreneurs often feel, we kind of have this myth in society, around the entrepreneurs who are very self-assured and very comfortable, very flamboyant and they’re comfortable anywhere. And they’re very kind of extroverted. So, they do very well but the thing is that there were tons of, let’s say introvert entrepreneurs or people who are very motivated to help other people in one way or another to build something. They have that instinct, but putting that instinct to work sometimes smashes into this wall of insecurity that will take away your energy. It will drain you; it will lead you to situations where you feel sucks, simply because you don’t feel yourself capable of kind of detaching a little bit from the day-to-day. And that is so important, not just for entrepreneurs, but for each of us.
If we don’t disconnect a little bit from that, day-to-day, we’re going to be so incredibly second some point because we never get to think strategically and advanced in that way. So, I’m really glad you shared this. And something else that I wanted to ask. I really believe in the incredible potential of coaching. I’m such a big believer in therapy and finding whatever works for you because a problem that I see is people have good intentions. They want to build good habits, but they like follow through and when they follow through, they pick up a habit, they can keep it in there.
Kind of every time the cycle happens, and this is something that I actually learned, in their belief in themselves will start to decay. So how do you think people can build, let’s say the ability to follow through on their decisions with taking on a new habit when they don’t have support or what do you advise them to do in this situation?

Erno Hannink: Well, first I think you’re right. Coaching is really important and I’m not saying that just because my coach, but I experienced it myself all the time. Just this week, I’m in an athletics team, right? So, I run from my cell, but I also run in ethics team and we have a coach. And the coach pays attention to the way that your time is building, how you’re doing. If you’re running on the suggested times that he proposed, you should run for this session. And this week we did like five times one K. So, a one K means two and a half rounds on a 400-meter track. And so, we have running on a track. For me it was getting difficult every time to get the next time, because every time it was, I had to run faster. And at some point, it’s becoming very difficult to run fast and faster and faster. And then, he says, well, I noticed one thing. By the way I’ve been doing it for four and a half years or so. It’s not like he sees me this first time. “You have a very particular type of your running your legs and you’re very unique in this group.” That was not meant very positively. It was different and not in a good way. So, he showed me what I was doing. I was not stretching my leg at the back long enough, so I was pulling it back forward too soon and not using the full length of the stretch.
Sounds complicated, but this is why you need a coach. A coach can see things that you can’t see because you have habits. You have things that you do with your body, with your mind, with everything that you do, which is so ingrained in your system, and even there’s running, pose it. There is no mirror. I can’t see myself running. I just run the way I think I’m supposed to run, but anything and anything that you can think of is whatever you do is there, it’s so ingrained in the system. It’s very difficult to see yourself that you’re doing it the wrong way, because it’s in your system. It goes automatically. So, a coach is really important to see the things that you’re doing, which are in the mining learning new habits or undermining a FaceTime or a mining, whatever. So, I would say, find a coach as the first thing to discover, and it doesn’t have to be expensive. You don’t have to find a one-on-one coach. You could find a buddy who’s looking at you but make sure that they see you like almost every day, because that’s important because the habits are so normally system that you do them automatically. You don’t think about it. So, you don’t see that you’re doing them wrong. Somebody else needs to say that to you and point it to you that you are doing it this way and you’re supposed to be doing it that way. And, so a solution would be that you just find a buddy, wherewith you talk to every day and you tell them what you do. Of course, it’s a very difficult thing to do over the phone or over Skype and you are a runner and they cannot see your posture while running, but everything else like in your business, you can say, I’ve been working on this today. I wanted to set these goals, but it didn’t do it. So why didn’t you do it? What happened there so that you can become more aware of and you can’t do it by your own? I also think that if you, and there’s so many theories about habits and how you, how you grow them. I think the most important ones are start small status, smallest possible. Make this, make the step so tiny, tiny habits that, it’s impossible not to do it, right? So, for example, if you want to start running, start with putting on your running shoes without going outside. If you don’t like running, if you’re not into running, but you want to start running because you need to exercise and especially now in this Corona situation, start putting on your running shoes, then there will be someday when you put, when you do the next step and as you go outside. Then another thing is you could connect these new kinds of habits. Just pick one, not three or four at the same time. Just pick one and connect it to an existing habit that you have, let’s say, for example, every morning you brush your teeth. That is a very common thing that rented us. So, when we have a new habits tea, if you can connect it to something like that. So if you have lunch, you can put it after the lunch. Cause it makes it easier. You do this thing and then they need to do the other thing as well. Another thing that you could do is reduce, not increase barriers for the things that you don’t want to do. Let’s say, for example, if you wanted to use less your mobile phone, so you don’t want to go on a Social Media, you don’t want to go on your phone, check your WhatsApp, everything, when you’re in your comfort zone or in your focus zone. So just remove the phone from your office, just put it somewhere else and where you need to just specifically go to pick it up until it takes you like a couple of minutes to get there, or you put it in your bag and you close the zipper and you make it as difficult as possible. So, there’s a lot of triggers going on before you actually get to your phone. These are, I think, three things that really help you like connected to something existing that already do make it really, really tiny so that it becomes so logical to do not to do it. And of course we talk about bad and good habits and I’m not sure if it’s the right language because habits are just habits. There is no value to it. A habit is something you do automatically. It’s decisions you make all the time without thinking about it. It’s your automatic brain system. According to economy, is he things you do automatically without actually really thinking about it. You think about it, but you don’t know it. And, so inhabited becomes a good habit when it supports your goals. A habit becomes a bad habit when it doesn’t support your goal, when it goes against your goals. So, in general, a habit is just a habit. And if you want to make sure that your small decisions, so your habits support your goals, then you have to develop those habits so that. Talking about decision-making, the first part of making better decisions is developing good habits that support your goals.

Andra Zaharia: Exactly because otherwise, so much of us, and I know you read tons about neuroscience and about what happens in the brain, what happens in the body and how they’re connected, how much of our behavior is completely automatic and we have no idea. Maybe we notice it sometimes when we were going somewhere familiar and we don’t realize how we got there. Maybe we notice it when we pick up the phone and scroll on Social Media and realize like “Hey, this is not what I wanted to do. What did I want to do with my phone when I first picked it up?” So we might notice it then, but the rest of the time, we do not notice these things. And building awareness of around them is important because it changes the course of our lives, actually, without realizing it. It’s that boiling frog situation with things kind of the water heats and you don’t realize what’s happening. And then, you’re like 10 years from now, you realize that you didn’t achieve the goal that you wanted to, and there’s all this frustration and regret. And we can definitely avoid that. We now know more about the brain and more about all these things than we had ever known, but that doesn’t do the job for us. It just knowing about them does not do the actual work for us, and I love how you talked about this. I actually wanted to ask, so we’ve talked about how habits kind of shape your context and set you up for better decisions, and how you need an accountability partner, whoever that is, to give you awareness in that area. And there’s so much more you can achieve with that, but you have to be ready willing actually do the work. I also wanted to ask a different side of your decision-making abilities and know-how because you’ve talked about your run, but I know that you’re also a football referee. And I’m very curious. To me, that’s such a fascinating area because first of all, you’re the first football referee that I know. Second, I feel like it’s a very hard pressure environment, where you have to make decisions that will most likely piss a lot of people off. So, I’m very curious to know how you make decision in that context and what you kind of learned from that.

Erno Hannink: There’s a couple of things. First of all, I think that most decisions you make only pisses half of the people on the field off, the other half are okay with it, right? So, 50% you already won. So that’s good. I’m always looking at the bright side. I think there’s a reason I don’t referee. For a long time, I really. hated football, soccer, and I’m not sure why I started it in my childhood. I wasn’t a good football player. I quit like a year and a half after I started, which when I was like 12, I’m not sure. And I was the only one on the team who got demoted once, when we won the championship. So I wasn’t good. So that’s put it lightly anyway. For the years, I didn’t like football. I didn’t see a match on TV. I didn’t watch the Dutch soccer team, anything. Then, I get a son and he’s in the beginning, all kinds of sports, he kind of need sports. He did some shooting of arrows for a while. And at some point, he got interested in soccer. So, he joined the soccer team here, close to our home. And I thought as a parent, it is normal that you support the club, whereas you playing because it’s all built upon support by parents. And that led to once they grow, they go to a bigger field and they need what we call assistant referees. So, the person who runs alongside the line and just waves the flag when they are offsite or on the way to flag when the ball goes out of their sight line and, nobody wants to do that job. Of course, not many people do that, but I did mine for me. It was a way to focus on the match and on the talk to other parents and miss goals, because that often happens. I don’t like that. If I’m there, I want to watch my son. I want to watch the team. I want to see what they’re doing, how they’re playing, if they score or not, if they lose or not. So, I thought this is a good thing to do. And so, I became an assistant referee. At the same time, I was in network events and people were saying I was wondering about presentations. People were saying “You need to take the center stage. You are always on the sideline.” I’m really good at the sideline. And they told me to take the center stage. We have something to say. If you have ideas, share them, become more centered. And this is a really great metaphor, right? So, if you are an assistant referee, you are on the sideline. Physically you are on the sideline and you wave your flag, but in the end, the referee in the center of the pitch is responsible. So they whistle. If you wave, they may whistle, they may also not whistle because they don’t agree with your decision. So, yeah, the referee is the most important part. He’s in the center of the picture and in my case, at some point, I figured, so I think it is time to move on and go from assistant referee to referee because that’s an important point. I did it for like four years. I did both fine: on Saturday I was a referee for youngsters and on Sunday I was assistant referee. And later on, I noticed, okay, I’m not that young anymore. I said maybe two matches in a weekend is a little bit too much. So then, I chose referee instead of assistant referee. I had already had a good matches champion since everything done as assistant referee and not as a referee and important things about this decision making that you were asking about as a referee. So now my background, why I choose this whole thing is, you need to know the rules. You need to know what are the rules, and I don’t always know them, but you need to know them as good as possible. And then, the second thing is you need to apply the rules in a match as good as possible. So, when you have a rule and it is a fault, you need to know, you need to give a free kick, you need to give a yellow card, you need to get a red card. So, you need to arouse pretty well to make the good decisions as good as possible. And, so if you make good decisions and you give somebody a red card, they can be upset. But if you make the right decision, people understand that you were right, they deserve the red card. They made a file, which was really serious. They need a red card. Of course, I can make mistakes. Like this weekend, I made a mistake. I thought it was just a free kick, but it was also a yellow card. I forgot the yellow card. Then the trainer of the other team complained that happens. You make mistakes but the thing is, if you make a decision, you blow your whistle. Be confident. Be confident in the decision. Make your body language with everything that you do so that this is the right decision. Even if you’re wrong, show them that you are confident about your decision and don’t go into discussion. People will discuss with you. They will try. „This is my decision; I’ve already made it. So, get off, don’t bother me in what we’re going to go continue with this way. I did decide this is it.” And that gives a lot of acceptance, like 90% of the time. So if you just are closed and that’s the last part you have to be fit, you have to be really fit. You have to be close to the situation every time when the ball goes from one side of the field to the other, or when they are running and chasing. You have to be close to the situation, close enough. So, you can really good assessment after situation. Is it a fault? Was it a good call? Was it a goal? Yes or no? Was it in the box? Was it out the box? Everything you need to be able to decide yourself. You have no assistants. The assistant referees are there, but you cannot trust them because they belong to the club, to the party that they are with. So you have to make all the decisions yourself and, so you need to be close, so that the players see that you are close. They cannot go in decision, but they know that you didn’t see it, right? They see you. “I was close. You can’t fool me.” You need to be confident. I need to run the rules. And if you do this, you will have much less discussion, much less frustration about your decisions. Of course, when you whistle for a penalty kick, people will be sad and they will be angry because they don’t feel they deserve it. I made the wrong call. I say: “It was hence” and he said “No, it wasn’t hence.” “Well, you had your arm right here and it came against your arm. That’s the rule, it’s hence. So, forget about go away. It’s a penalty kick.” But that’s all in the moment, right? So, there are emotions, a lot of emotions in a moment and accept that. That’s all fine. But once we’re done with the moment, we continue with my decision. I’m confident about my decision and we go,

Andra Zaharia: That is such a great metaphor. I absolutely love how you talked about this because those key takeaways are about, to me, about deriving that confidence for being close to the situation. And this plays into another layer, which you mentioned earlier, which was about being present in the things, in life, in general. And they feel like everything that you explained this entire process perfectly applies to doing business, running a household, having a family, cultivating relationships and everything. It’s so easy to get distracted. But about all the things our mind is constantly print-screening, you know, with the things that are pulling away at our attention. And it’s difficult to kind of get rooted in this situation and not get easily distracted, constantly like by new information and things like that. So that makes it more difficult to make a decision, to have confidence in your decisions and to follow through on them. So, they’re all tied together and I really love how you talked about it. And I wanted to emphasize this part about being present. I see people, you know… Now we’re having like 90% or a hundred percent online conversations, especially for work. If you’re not present in that hour, in that half an hour, if you don’t look at that person, if you don’t give them your energy and attention, you’re going to walk away, depleted, frustrated. You’re going to have more questions than you started initially with and basically there’s going to be this huge disconnect and I see this in an earlier podcast episode. I had Brett, who is a specialist in company culture. And we talked about what the missing things are, why people are frustrated, why they’re quitting their jobs, why they feel so disconnected from their work, why they don’t enjoy it anymore in their burnout. Because the thing is that one of the things that’s lacking in company culture is this cultivating this ability to remain aware, to remain present, to want to be there for other people like fully and not being on your phone when someone else makes a presentation. And there’s so much value in that.
So, I really love how you talked about this and how you share this. This is a fantastic metaphor for making better choices.

Erno Hannink: I have one addition, in relation to this because, being a referee is a good hobby. In weekend, you need to exercise. I need to be fit. So, I need to exercise as well during the week. So there’s a lot of reasons that drive my other habits to be a good referee. But the other thing, which you may not know, but if you are on the pitch and not just on the pitch, but also the time before the match preparation, looking at the teams and doing my warmup, everything. It is a really focused time. Like you said, you need to really, really be present. So, for me, it is like two hours on a Sunday where I can’t think about my work, when I can’t think about my business, when I can’t think about other issues. The only thing I can focus on right there is on the players, the ball and the situations that are going forward. So, it’s so much energy that it goes into that process. There was no space for anything else, which I think is a really good thing. When you have your own business, when you’re an entrepreneur, when you’re busy in your job to find a hobby that takes so much attention that you have at least a couple of hours a week, when there’s no way that you can think about the other things, just going on with your life.

Andra Zaharia: So powerful. It’s kind of a making this non-negotiable and that gives you so much freedom because that sounds off or anything else, and you don’t have to feel guilty about it. Because that feeling of guilt, I just, we keep bumping into it.

Erno Hannink: Yeah, during the breaks, it’s like when two halves of the play off the match, most people know that, but there’s a small break of 15 minutes, right? But I see young referees, picking up their phones in those 15 minutes. I never pick up my phone. I have no idea what’s going on outside the pitch at the moment, because if I do pick up the phone, I could just be looking at Twitter. I could look at WhatsApp and see what other referees are doing, but that’s just mean. I’m getting out of focus and something could be in there, which just throws me off. And my second half would just be worse because I will just have this thing going on my mind, that I just saw on Twitter or email or on my phone or whatever. I don’t want that. Ny phone stays in my bag. I don’t want to watch it during the break. I will watch it after the match is over, because then I have like 45, two times 45 full focus on the match.

Andra Zaharia: And rarely things incredibly important happen in the space of two hours. We can easily live without news for a week. Nothing fundamental is going to change even now, even with things shifting from day to day. That’s not to say that you shouldn’t be informed, but you’re drinking from a fire hose of information. Very different from seeing informed. And yes, going on this, let’s say diet, informational diet that’s a little trimmed down is so incredibly healthy. So, I’d love to keep this conversation going. There are so many more things. Maybe we can do a follow-up episode at some point. So much to offer people and so much guidance, and I can’t wait to share links to all of your resources, where people can find you and learn more from you and especially from your own podcasts as well. And before we leave, before we wrap up, I just wanted to ask: What’s one thing, like one resource that you’d really like for people to reach. Just one, a book, a podcast episode, something that you think will make a big difference for them, considering the things that we talked about, and I know it’s a difficult choice.

Erno Hannink: Yeah, Jesus, this is… You caught me up to quiet because one thing… that’s an impossible task. I will give you a method. The fun thing, especially when you’re an entrepreneur, is that first of all, entrepreneurs are really optimistic. They have maybe a little bit too much of confidence, but they are really optimistic. And the thing is that’s what we do believe at some point. If we make a couple of good decisions is that we are very good decision-makers. Most of the effect of the decisions that we make are pure luck, for example, right? So last year, my business was going really well. Then Corona happens. Like so many other entrepreneurs… It’s a lot of people. The same thing Corona happens and everything changes, whatever decision you made in December or January for 2020. At that point, there were really good decisions, but Corona changed the whole situation. That didn’t make the decision bad. It just changed the situation. So, the business has gone completely different now, and it has nothing to do with the way that you decided. So, I think, the one thing that you wanted to learn is not to evaluate the result of your decision, but evaluate the decision-making process. So, what I advise you to do is build a decision book. A decision book, you can do it on paper. I use Notion for that. So that’s an app that I use, but Notion is a great app where you have these templates that you can use. I have actually a template that you could use for this and what happens is that whenever you have a big decision, right, something that you really intentionally need to think about… So not habits, an intentional decision to think about, use one page of your decision book and write down a couple of things. So, what is the decision? And then what is my emotion with the decision that’s going on? What’s happening in my life right now? Then, what are the good things? But the decision, what can happen if the decision goes well? What could be good things to happening? What could be bad things with the decision and what is interesting around the decision? What about other things around the decision? So, if I don’t do this, what I could do then? What is it I need to do? What are the actions I need to take after I made the decision? And, then I’ve added two more things lately. I also added a pre-modern. That means that you write down the things that could go wrong with the decision after you’ve made the decision. Everything that could go wrong with a decision. Let’s say you have a partner that you want to work with, an interesting partner who wants to join your business and you want to work together. So, you write a page about this decision in your book, and then you have a section, which is called pre-mortem, which is also instilled facism, is that you write everything that could go down with this partner after you’ve decided you could you work together and what you could do with this pre-mortem is that once you’ve written down, everything go wrong is you can take precaution. Let’s say, for example, they steal your money. So, what can I do to prevent that? Let’s say they could leave you after six months. What could I do to prevent that? What can I do to change that situation? And the last thing I do is I also write down this stuff. So, what you could do is also, what I do is, after like three or six months, I put a reminder on my calendar that I look back at the decision. So, I go back to my decision book. I look at the decision and I look at what I wrote down. So, what is the situation now? How do I feel about the decision? Not about the results, right? And like I said, that’s mostly luck. So, I don’t look at the results. I look at this decision. How do I feel about decision now afterwards? Were my ideas good. Was my process good? Were my emotions correct? Yes or no? So, what happened with the pre-mortem all this stuff so I can improve my process about my decisions. So, I, the one thing I can give you, next to all kinds of books that you could read about habits and brains and all this stuff or apps to improve your habits, all this stuff. I think this is a good thing that you can do on your own. Start a decision book

Andra Zaharia: That is super helpful and I can’t wait, I will add the link to the template in the show notes to kind of try to capture all of those rich and incredibly helpful ideas that you’ve shared with me today. And with us, obviously, thank you so much, Erno! This was such a wonderful conversation, as always, and I can’t wait to continue having them in the future as well. Thank you!

Erno Hannink: My pleasure, my pleasure! It’s great to be able to share this. As you can see, I’m very filled with this topic!

Andra Zaharia: Yes, you are. You’re definitely a master of it. And the way you talk about it, I’m sure we’ll help others shave their vocabulary around it, their understanding and hopefully, their actions.

Erno Hannink: I hope so, I hope so!

I love this tweet from today’s guest! I feel it captures the essence of this podcast, extending well beyond this episode.

The knowledge you hold could change someone’s life.

Share what you know.

It’s enough.

— Tom Hirst (@tom_hirst) October 9, 2020

I’m about to celebrate my 2-year freelancing anniversary and it was pure serendipity that this podcast episode comes out so close to that moment. It’s especially important because it combines three of the elements that combine to make up most of my work: building a company of one (aka freelancing), decision-making, and the growth mindset.

My guest today, Tom Hirst, generously shares how he’s progressed on all three fronts during the last decade, highlighting the decisions he used to achieve balance and the thinking behind them. The way he considers the choices and actions he’s making today and their future impact is a highly valuable lesson in strategic thinking. I learn a lot from this conversation and I hope you will too!

This is a fast-paced episode that packs a lot of energy and that might be just what you need to find your own priorities and engineer your growth from here on. Keep a notebook close, you’ll want to take notes!

About Tom Hirst:

Fresh out of college, Tom Hirst went straight into freelancing.

That was 11 years ago, when resources for freelancers and what it’s like to work as one were scarce. For over a decade, Tom, who is a freelance WordPress developer, has been building his mindset, processes, skills, and know-how, refining them to design a lifestyle he enjoys while doing the work he loves.

I met him on Twitter a few months ago, when a thread he did on pricing freelance projects snowballed to viral levels. In just a few weeks, he turned that into an ebook that every freelancer should read.

What especially caught my eye about Tom Hirst is his incredibly articulate and thoughtful observations around the decisions and actions that make a freelancer a true pro.

Beyond building his way to success in his freelance web development career, Tom also recently started to create a big audience on Twitter. When you understand the thinking and work that goes into his tweets, I bet you’ll instantly appreciate his transparency as much as I do.

Tom shares a lot of useful tips, methods, and inspiration for self-employed people. With everyone working from home, I feel this way of thinking now extends to everyone, as being self-managed, proactive, and owning your path is essential to anything we want to achieve, no matter how or where we work. In other words, Tom is a very good mentor, sharing his honest thoughts, perspectives, and experiences with you and me and everyone who wants to listen – and then do.

No matter what your job or role is, Tom’s perspective and advice are golden! And they’re easy to transfer to your own context.

Listen to this episode to learn more about his ideas, thoughts on freelancing in a very uncertain environment, and how to build a foundation that maintains your discipline as well as helping you enjoy the flexibility and freedom of being a freelancer.

Listen to this episode to learn:

• What really works to achieve a balance between work and your personal life
• How to set your deadlines more realistically
• How to maintain your discipline during a period of high stress and anxiety caused by work overload
• Effective ways to keep track of your progress at work and all areas of life that matter to you
• Why achieving a balance between income and having a good relationship with clients will elevate your work and sense of achievement
• What you can expect from a freelancing career and which stereotypes to avoid so you can set yourself up for success
• The difference between “nice to have” and “need to have” in everything you do and how it can change your perspective and decisions.

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• Freelancing involves discipline, maintaining good mental health, and taking control of your future. All that depends on becoming a good boss for yourself.
• Freelancing is not for everyone because it requires you to play a range of different roles.
• Doing any form of sports is fundamental for your mental health and it also forms the basis to build a bunch of other life-changing healthy habits.
• Being a freelancer means you are a business owner. It can be a way for you to turn your passion into a very well paid job IF you take it seriously.
• It’s very important to cultivate a strong relationship with small groups of people who share your interests and principles. It’s one of the best ways to open yourself up to amazing opportunities for your work and personal development.

Connect with Tom:

• LinkedIn
• Twitter
• TomHirst.com

Resources mentioned in the episode:

Book: Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones by James Clear

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Full episode transcript:

Andra Zaharia: The knowledge you hold could change someone’s life. Share what you know, it’s enough. I love this quote from today’s guest. I feel it captures the essence of this podcast. Fresh out of college. Tom, went straight into freelancing. That was 11 years ago when resources for freelancers and what it’s like to work as one were pretty scars. For over a decade, Tom, who is a freelance WordPress developer, has been building his mindset, processes skills, and know-how referring them to design a lifestyle he enjoys while doing the work he loves. I met him on Twitter a few months ago when a thread he did on pricing freelance projects blew up and snowballed to viral levels. In just a few weeks, he turned that into an e-Book that every freelancer should read. What especially caught my eye about Tom Hirst is his incredibly articulate and thoughtful observations around the decisions and actions that make a freelancer a true pro, no matter what your job or role is. Tom’s perspective and advice are golden, and they’re easy to transfer to your own setting. We talked about things like setting Kelsey boundaries between your work and the rest of your life, self-motivation, accountability and making choices that improve your life in the long run. This fast-paced conversation was a massive boost of energy. And I hope it’ll be the same for you. Let’s dig in Tom! I’m very excited to have you on the podcast here, even though I’ve only kind of relatively recently found you on Twitter, I’m extremely excited to talk to you, especially because I’ve been digging into your work a lot and your ideas around freelancing and decision-making and positioning, and kind of the entire mindset that you talk about. It’s such a rich ground for so many interesting conversations and I can’t wait to talk to you today.

Tom Hirst: Yeah. I’m excited to be at a hundred. Thanks for having me on.

Andra Zaharia: So, tell me, what’s kind of the toughest decision that you’ve had to make this year?

Tom Hirst: Oh, this year. Hmm, I mean, in terms of business, the toughest decision that I’ve had to make was to start transitioning, I guess, into being more of a content creator than a freelancer I mean, I’m at the very beginnings of that process. As you mentioned before, starting to build the audience on Twitter and things like that was the basis of it but it still was a tough decision to make because the money has always been good in freelancing for me. So, the decision to take the initial hit to, you know, spend a little bit more time on building an audience, creating products, talking a little bit about how I got there and things like that. That was probably the toughest decision that I’ve actually had to make in business. The sheer so far.

Andra Zaharia: That’s very interesting to me because I’m kind of on the cusp of trying to do the same. And I know that many freelancers would like to devote more time to kind of doing their own stuff, saying and running their own projects, but they’re scared of the same things. They’re scared of their, you know, their revenue going down. They’re scared of taking that risk. What kind of prompted you to do this? When was the moment that led you to choose like “Hey, I gotta do this, and I’m going to definitely stay committed to this!”

Tom Hirst: Yeah. I think maybe a bit subconsciously it was the birth of my daughter. Because I just realized I wanted to spend more time with her and not be working all the time. So, I think the primer there was that, but then I also think that the short-term change for the long-term and game is always in the back of my mind. So, what I’m trying to think of is building assets that will continue to pay dividends as I get older.
Because my goal is to work less, not work more, right, and especially as I get older and older. So yeah, I mean, not the retirement plan per se, but the lifestyle I think has always been very important to me. And I think that was the driving factor behind the conscious effort to make that decision to change.

Andra Zaharia: I love that you touched on lifestyle and I think that this is, you know, so many people are questioning the way they work. They’re crushing their jobs, their motivation, their sources of meaning. So many things, you know, there used to be “I’d solid it last year that there was kind of this hunger for meaning but I feel like, obviously, this year is just balloon to, you know, the top of our priorities.” So, you had talked about wanting to design a certain lifestyle. Was this something that you had in mind when you started freelancing or did you build it, you know, gradually realized and work towards it as you went along?

Tom Hirst: Yeah, definitely. I knew from a young age that I always wanted to work for myself because I like to be in control, I guess. So, designing my own lifestyle back then was really so that I could play more games and things like that, but doing it now, it’s to spend more time with my family. So yeah, it’s always the freelance lifestyle, it has always been something that appealed to me, even though I’m a completely different person now to what I was when I started for both reasons, for 22-year-old Tom and 33-year-old Tom, the freelance lifestyle was a big part of it.

Andra Zaharia: And that difference, you know, unpacking that just a little bit, because there are so many people who think freelancing is sort of glamorous and they come into it with so many wrong assumptions. And for example, for me, you know, when I decided to give this a shot, to stick with it, I told myself that I would stick with it at least for at least three years to see how it goes, to give myself a chance to work through those challenges and stretch myself.
And before I went into that, I listened to Kelly Morris and Paul Jarvis’s creative class podcast, which helped me a lot in setting the right expectations. But so many people, you know, don’t. They’ll do that kind of exploratory exercise beforehand. So, what do you think are some, let’s say, misconceptions about freelancing that maybe you had when you went in and then, you know, started deconstructing along the way?

Tom Hirst: Yeah. sure, I mean, there wasn’t as much information available when I started as there is now. But all the information that you do see was like, “You can work far, I was a week from the beach” and that’s applicable to everyone, even right at the beginning. And it’s just not true.
I think the thing that I’ve found with freelancing is that the truth is not just about working smart, it’s about working smart and hard in the time that you allocate to do to, to work. So yeah, I mean, that’s the biggest misconception for me. I think a lot of people sell the freelance dream as been realistically achievable quickly for everyone when that’s not always the case because this thing’s not for everyone. And I’m full, I mean, I’m obviously, I’m a massive proponent of the freelance business on lifestyle, but I do also acknowledge that it’s not for everyone. And there’s a lot to be said about turning up to a job nine to five and being able to switch off, you know, and I think that is a big misconception. You’ve got to train yourself into that level of separation. There’s a lot that comes with freelancing that you don’t at first realize.

Andra Zaharia: Tell me a little bit about who you think this is for, you know, what kind of, let’s say mindset and skills. To me, I think the mindset is the most important part. Everything else comes second.

Tom Hirst: For sure. I’m a big, especially in the last five years or so, like, I’m a big believer in “the mindset controls everything”. So yeah, in terms of relating that to who freelancing is far, I think it’s, you’ve got to be disciplined, right? You’ve got to not need someone on your case all the time, telling you what to do. You’ve got to have, you know, your future. You’ve got to understand that your future is in your hands and you know, how hard or how smart you work. Is going to be of direct benefit to you, short term, medium-term and long term. There’s no longer someone to tell you what to do in this game. You’ve got to take control and take accountability. And I think if you’ve got that, then you’ll do well in freelancing, and perhaps you’ll do well in a lot of other things in life as well.

Andra Zaharia: Let’s pick that apart a little bit. So, you talked about two things: you talked about accountability, and you talked about discipline. How do you maintain that discipline when you get tired? When you’re, let’s say in an environment because I know that many freelancers, as well as, obviously, many employees struggle right now with anxiety, with burnout, with so many things you don’t want it, you don’t know if your revenue is going to stay stable over the next few months, because there’s so much uncertainty and you want to do all the work that you can do to the best of your ability. So, it’s a tough choice to make. How do you stay disciplined when you have times like these?

Tom Hirst: Yeah, I think it’s tough. I mean, obviously, everyone is going through a little bit of a weird period right now, but what’s been the saving grace for me has been consistency. So obviously before all this happened, I’ve always just been a really consistent person. Like I get up at the same time every day, I go to the gym at the same time, you know, three or four times a week. I walk the dog at the same time. And I don’t know for a lot of people that need a little bit more flexibility, but what I’ve tried to design is like a baseline. I call it a semi-flexible routine, basically. So I have like a baseline level of, you know, non-negotiable things that have to get done at certain times, because I know that’s the best time to do them. And then I also try and build in, you know, I call them Tramadol slots. So, let’s say if I am to go to the gym three or four times a week, I’ll schedule five times for that. But then if something comes up in the household, like I need to look after my kid or, you know, sometimes I might just be a little bit more tired, then I can kind of pick and choose the slots and make it work, in reality, because I think sometimes, we’ve, you know, consistency and routine life does get in the way, but it’s how much you are prepared for that. And how much you are willing to prioritize certain things over others. So, yeah, having like that baseline semi-flexible routine is really important to me and gives me that peace of mind, especially when times, you know, times are not quite as good right now, perhaps for some people having that level of… It’s like a constant basically. I think having that constant and keeping that going, just relieves the anxiety a little bit.

Andra Zaharia: It definitely does. I love this framework and I think you’ve already shared so many powerful things that we can actually do and try to apply.
And I love how actionable all of your work is and all of your content is. I really, really love that about it. So, you talked about making things non-negotiable, and that kind of sparked an idea for me. I recently read Shonda Rhimes, The Year of Yes. Shonda Rhimes is the creator of Grey’s Anatomy and how to get away with murder and a couple of other incredible shows. She runs everything. She’s incredible. And she talked about, you know, she took a year of… She used to say no, a lot too many opportunities because she knows she’s an introvert. And then she just started saying yes. And she talks about how that unfolded over a year. And at some point, she says that she was about to go to a gala. And her kids said like, “Hey mom, can we call her?” And then she just, you know, she was late, but she decided at that moment that when her kids need her, she’s going to make that non-negotiable. But that’s such a difficult thing to do, isn’t it? You know, take time for yourself, take time for going to the gym and you know, maybe sleeping a bit more, working, getting some slack time into your schedule, as you mentioned. So things come up, you can accommodate them. How do you make that leap? How do you overcome that limiting belief? How do you go from, “this is nice to have” to “this is need to have”, because otherwise, I’m going to burn out and get sick?

Tom Hirst: Yeah, I think for me it was health. So, what I tried to do is kind of think, “Look, I’m going to perform at the best of my ability as a husband, as a father, as a businessman, as an entrepreneur or whatever you want to, whatever you want to call what we do if my health is in order and that’s not just physical health, but mental health as well.” So, what I kind of realized the older that I got is a lot of my problems were based around I was overweight. You know, my diet was poor. My relationship with alcohol probably wasn’t the best. I never exercised and I just got stuck in playing games for hours on end and just did the bare minimum amount of work. So a lot of this was all connected. When I made this realization that if I improve my health, then I’ll improve my life, that’s kind of where it all started for me.

Andra Zaharia: Many people make that decision, but they don’t stick with it and I think that this is where the accountability factor comes in, that you mentioned earlier. So how did you keep yourself accountable? How did you design a system to keep track of your progress and keep fueling that motivation through small wins and progress?

Tom Hirst: Yeah, I mean, I’ve always expected a lot of myself, so I’m quite self-motivated and I keep myself accountable a lot of the time. But I keep going back to the exercise thing. But with the gym, when I first started, I had a friend who I would go with and even though he wouldn’t, if I didn’t want to go one day, he wouldn’t ring me up and say, “Why you not here?” Well, just knowing that someone was relying on me to meet them was kind of, you know, a bit of an accountability thing. I knew that he’d be waiting for me to start his workout. So, in the back of my mind, I guess he wasn’t an accountability partner at that time but other than that, I think it was just the desire for a better life. It’s kind of weird, but the flip just switched in my mind and I just realized that there must be a better way to live my life. There must be a better way to achieve the things that I want to achieve. And then having that overall, it’s not necessarily a single goal, but having that overall mindset than just kept me honest basically.

Andra Zaharia: Do you have an accountability partner now? How do you keep yourself accountable for big things, big projects, like sticking with the content projects, for example?

Tom Hirst: Yeah. I’m a big believer in personal deadlines. It’s weird. I did a tweet about deadlines the other day, and I find sometimes deadlines in a team counterproductive, but I think sometimes having deadlines, especially personal deadlines are really useful because for me if I set a deadline for something that I know it’s getting done, because I just cannot break the deadline, I’m really strict like that. And maybe sometimes it’s been to my detriment because I’ve not slept as much as I should have, but getting setting a date for me, especially when it’s a project that I’m in full control of, I find highly useful for accountability purposes.

Andra Zaharia: And that’s very helpful. What is the difference between a personal deadline and a general deadline?

Tom Hirst: So, I mean, what I would call like a team deadline is, like say there’s more than one person involved in a project. So, you’re relying on each other perhaps to get things done. Someone gets their work done and then you get your work done. And I think sometimes when you rush to a deadline in a team basis. Perhaps the project might not be quite as good quality as what it could have been, perhaps some decisions that are quite critical get overlooked and things like that. I’m a big proponent of semi-flexible deadlines on team projects. But then, personally, when I’m in full control of getting the work done, then I can be more realistic with the deadline dates because when you’re relying on other people, then it’s a lot to sometimes meet those goals.

Andra Zaharia: That is so true! How did you get more realistic about setting personal deadlines? Because for me, for example, especially in the first year, things always take less or take longer than you expect, but it’s difficult to know how much longer is it? 10%? Is it 30%? How did you learn to kind of build muscle in this area?

Tom Hirst: I think a lot of it does come from experience. Let’s say, on a website project that I might be developing, I’ve got a rough idea how long things are going to take. I’ve got a rough idea of how long things might runoff. But if I’m working on a content project, for example, I’ve written two eBooks for now. I’ve only got minor experience. To be honest, for the second book the deadline probably wasn’t that realistic because I got to work more than what I wanted to. But I can use that experience now, into the next eBook to give myself another week or so. I’m always trying to gauge “If I did this again, how long could it possibly take?” And then I will use that factored in with all the other things that go off in my life and whether that’s business projects, whether it’s, you know, family occasion, social occasions and just try and work out roughly when that will be. So yeah, being realistic about deadlines is sometimes… people like to make them unrealistic, just so they do it quicker and I found that, especially on the last eBook, to be a bit detrimental to my health, because I kind of needed at least two weeks of nothing. You know, I push myself, I got it done. Well, then I, needed those two weeks of nothing. I think for the next personal deadline that I’ll do set. I’ll use the experience and I’ll try and give myself a little bit more… Not too much because I still think it’s important to give yourself that push but I just want maybe another 10, 20% more.

Andra Zaharia: That’s very helpful. It’s kind of building, let’s say internal documentation. Let’s call it that, which helps you boost awareness a trick. Well, just a general piece of advice that I learned from my coach is that, at some point last year I put you know, following his guidance, I put everything in Google calendar, like everything, everything that I do so I can see how all the slots fill up. How everything plans out and how much I can squeeze into a day. I wanted to obviously, you know, the spirit of overachieving, try to do, you know, everything today now. And what I realized by doing this, first of all, you have a complete visual awareness of what’s going on. Second of all, I went back and actually adjusted how long it actually took. So I can go back and see if I have a certain project in mind, I can go back into my calendar, see how long that actually took. So, I don’t you know, fall into my own trap again and again. And this exercise… there are so many moving parts to freelancing, right? So many of them and keeping track of them and building awareness gradually around them. I think they are so, so incredibly important. If you are to evolve, to have the lifestyle that you described, where you actually enjoy your work, but you don’t let it consume you because that’s a very easy pitfall to fall into, isn’t it?

Tom Hirst: Oh, definitely. And I mean the calendar thing is something that we do as well. I try and keep the business calendar on the live calendar as the same one and the same. My wife has a calendar and I have mine, and then we share them as well. So, I can see everything that she has going on off, and I can see everything I have going on and vice versa. And that’s been really useful for us. So yeah, I can definitely adhere to that what you said but I liked the idea about going back and actually, you know, putting the real-time that things took next to the estimated time. Yeah, I need to start with that one.

Andra Zaharia: Well, I’m glad, you know, I’ve learned so many things through coaching. I feel like it’s been one of the most intense learning experiences that helped me level up. And the thing that I love most about it is that it was super practical with things like these. And I love it that I can share them now with everyone and they can, you know… it’s about choosing what you need and just leaving what you don’t. I feel like that’s also kind of my learning style. And I think that it may be the same for you that we pick and choose things from other people’s experiences. We’re from things that we read, learn, do, and so on and so forth and form our own style of working and doing things. So, you talked about, just to go back a bit on, that mental separation that you talked about between doing work and the rest of our lives. It’s so easy to get sucked into just doing the work. It’s a place that we control. I have some control issues as well. Hence me being a freelancer and wanting to have Antonin ownership on as many things as possible. But it’s true that you know, we get really good at this, but we need to invest the same amount of time and effort into our personal lives to let’s say increase the performance, but then not in that very critical kind of way. So how did you build that separation? For many people, it’s so difficult. I feel like your experience right now could help a lot of people who are working from home, but don’t know how to set boundaries and who actually suffer from the fact that the lines have gotten so blurred that they don’t know what they’re doing and for who anymore.

Tom Hirst: Yeah. I think this is a constant struggle for all freelancers or any person that runs her own business. You’ll always have some form of the lines being blurred, but I think why this, especially in the last, like maybe four or five years, is that separation for me is the key. So, what I try to do with air is that, when I’m working, that gets my full attention on interrupted, and when I’m not working the same. I found it completely beneficial to both aspects of my life. So, you know, the business prospects went off and started my life prospects. You know, I felt a lot better when I was, I didn’t feel guilty anymore. You know what, I’m spending time with friends or when I’m with my family or. I haven’t always got my eye on something else. Because I know a lot of people do say that they like the kind of an hour here, an hour there and then nip out and pick the kids up from school and come back. And I mean, sometimes you have to do that kind of thing. But I think for me, the separation enables me to get more out of the time basically and allows me to be more present. So yeah, that’s separation for me has been a big thing. And it’s only I try and increase all times. I try and separate as much as I can. I don’t really want to be thinking about work at all. Especially on a weekend, things like that. That’s how I do it. I know everybody, you know, flexibilities to be embraced in freelancing and that’s something that I always say, but for me, it works nicely in my family unit that I have the weekends when I’m not thinking about work. And that’s what I usually try and do. So yeah, that’s how I manage it.

Andra Zaharia: I mentioned the fact that, you know, switching from back and forth, let’s say from personal to business or just in between tasks is such, it takes such a toll. It’s called residual attention and it basically takes us 20 minutes to readjust… To just get back into the flow of whatever it is we’re doing. So, it definitely, you know, freelancing comes with a lot of flexibility, but that flexibility, depending on how you use it comes at a cost and the cost we may not consciously realize. Could you give us some, let’s say very practical examples of how you manage to make the separation? Did you turn off all notifications on your phone? Do you only read emails at certain times of the day? How does that look in your life?

Tom Hirst: I think that the main one for me is I’ve always had a dedicated home office whichever house we’ve been living in. And kind of the unwritten rule in our house is that if the doors shut, I’m working and I know it’s really simplistic, but it’s super practical and it works. So yeah, like a typical workday when I’m in the office, the dog comes with me, he falls asleep, but then, you know, my wife would be at work and my daughter would be at nursery, normally. But if they’re in the house, they know that if the doors shut and I’m working and that’s the physical separation helps them with a mental separation, because I know that I’m not going to be disturbed. So that’s the main one that I do there. But yeah, no notifications. I just don’t have them at all. My phone lives in do not disturb mode, whether that’s social, our business. I never take on solicited calls either. So, I never display a phone number on my website or anything like that because I don’t really want people calling me when I’m in a deep work state. That’s been a really good one for me and I, whether that’s a business thing or whether that’s a friend thing. And I think you can kind of train people as well, not to call you at certain times. So, my friends know, like when you first saw your friends that you’re freelance in, so going back like 10 years now, they’ll be like “Oh, can I come round for a coffee? I’ve got a day off!” And it’s like “No because I’m working”. And over the years, they’ve eventually learned that if they call me nine to five, Monday to Thursday, there’s no way I’m picking that phone up. So, they just stopped doing it. So, yeah, that’s been a good way to training people not to call me out of the layer of separation between the business and the life aspects.

Andra Zaharia: So, so, so important and I feel the same! My mom used to call me, she’s like, “Hey, you’re working from home. I can call you anytime.” I’m like “No, no, you cannot. It’s not that, you know, you can call me if something’s urgent, obviously, but otherwise, everything can wait. If it’s not life or death, anything can wait.” And I’ve also found like request that “Hey, let’s jump on a call and discuss X”. I’ve made a rule that you always please email me with your specific request. And this is a very good filter for bad clients. If you can articulate what you need before we get out of the call, why should I do the work of articulating it for you? I’m happy to do that. If it’s part of a project and you know, we’re doing it in a formal way. There are so many interesting things. I think about freelancing that involves personal well, social dynamics. It’s, so interesting too, you know, first of all… you have to have the mindset that you’re a business owner.
And I think that that’s such an important thing that many freelancers miss. They feel like they’re well, they’re in a place where they’re not employed. So, you don’t have all that support system. You don’t have, let’s say, the reputation that comes with being part of a company, big or small, whatever it is.
You’re not… but you don’t think of yourself as a business owner while I think that is incredibly important. So, what kind of decisions come when you think of yourself as a business owner?

Tom Hirst: Yeah, that’s a really good point because I think a lot of people get into freelancing. The skill that they have that they sell started perhaps as a hobby, a lot of the time. And that was true for me. I spent, you know, with the program and I just saw it as a hobby and I made that into a profession. And I think sometimes that switch, you fail to realize that as soon as you step over that line into freelancing, you are your business. You’re not just a hobbyist, a program around whatever you want business. Yeah. So, you just like put the business hat on, I guess. And you’ve just got to think this is a serious… My life, you know, my life, my living depends on what I do with this time. So, if I’m just going to sit here and do things that are not bringing in the money. Then, you know, it’s not a business. Yeah, if you’re not making money, you’re not bringing revenue to your business. So, I think that’s the decision you’ve got to make is that context switch between just being very leisurely about it all, but then making how I did a tweet about this the other day, actually, and I think it was… What did I quote? Something about being serious about how efficient you are and how effective you are with your time, taking that seriously! I think that’s a big decision that you have to make when you make that switch into freelancing.

Andra Zaharia: So, so true! It’s so easy to fall into reading emails, checking social posting, things like that, doing admin work, which is a big part of being a freelancer and, you know, should have the process around that. Speaking of processes, I feel like having a good process is not just something that this is instrumental for any business, no matter its size, no matter what it does, but it’s also important for us as a freelancer. So, when you have your business hat on you design processes that help you get there, what kind of processes do you have in place to, you know, keep you making those good, healthy choices for yourself and your business?

Tom Hirst: Yeah, that’s a good one. In the pricing book that I wrote, I wrote about something called pricing preferences. So that’s essential, it’s kind of like a list on a reminder of all the pricing methodologies that high we’ll use with clients and how I will apply them. And that’s not necessarily now because it comes second nature. But in the beginning, especially when I felt “Look, I’m going to try” and, price things in a more effective way that really helped me as a process to look at the sheet is the discussion that I’m having with this client going along these lines. Am I applying what I want to apply effectively? Am I actually following through with what I said I would do? And if I wasn’t that I could use that as a reference and not say “Look, pastor Tom told the future. Tell him to do it this way, so use it.” And that’s kind of one of the processes that I really benefited from. And I write about that a lot in the pricing, freelancing projects, book all the processes that I use. I mean, I use a lot of template emails. So, a lot of common, queries that I might get, that I’ve got kind of a basic template that I can copy and paste and then just flush out. And then I guess the process with email in general, I mean, I think you touched on this earlier. I batch emails. I’m a massive believer in that. So I have a process for doing emails. What I’ll do is I’ll star all the important ones so that they stand out, I’ll do those first and I do them in priority. So, my process with email isn’t to do them in the order that they come in. It’s the order in which I prioritize them and I find that to be really effective too.

Andra Zaharia: It absolutely is! Batching is key, especially when you deal with many different types of tasks. And when you work in content, for example, and the speaking from experience here, you have so many things, I don’t, for example, I do strategy, but I don’t only do blog articles. I do kind of many things, especially because I work on retainers with clients and we work across a bunch of assets. So, the batching things are super important! Otherwise, you’re going to lose your mind a little by little, and you’re going to deplete your energy. I absolutely loved your pricing book. I thought it was, you know, I first saw the thread, so it just floated. It was massive. It was so clear, so articulate. You know it definitely shows that you speak from experience, but not just experience that you gather because just time, best through it’s because you thought about those things, you internalize them, you reflected on them and improve them. And you constantly doing that. So, what are some limiting beliefs around, let’s say pricing decisions that get freelancers stuck, or keep them from evolving as they would want to?

Tom Hirst: Yeah, I think that the main one is that everyone’s looking for a cookie-cutter pricing methodology that every single freelancer can apply to every single project, to every single client. And that doesn’t exist and it’s a lot more complex than that. So, I think in the struggle to find that magic formula, people stop experimenting with price and research and looking into it. But yeah, I mean, what helped me and what I talk about, I talk about this a bit more in the book is that researching it deeply and actually thinking about the psychology of pricing and going through my own experience obviously as well as the key driver to me up in my game, really as a freelancer. And I feel that people discount freelancing as being a bit of a black call when the, you know because there aren’t that many assets actually out there, there isn’t something that maybe even, as candid as this Twitter thread about the price thing, a lot of people are quite secretive of it. So I think that hinders freelancers as you know when we’re talking about price,

Andra Zaharia: It absolutely does. I think that you know, talking about these things, we’ve not been trained or educated to talk about money. It’s such a sensitive topic for us and it’s such a sensitive topic for clients as well because you never know… they don’t have anchors. What’s a starting point?
What’s a fair price for this? They have no idea. And they often ask for support from freelancers. They’ll often say, you know, you ask “What’s your budget?”, then they’ll say like “Hey, what’s your pricing?” and they’re going to try to figure out, you know, value for money. And that’s why I think it’s so important not to charge by the hour. And I know that you used to support this as well. That’s doesn’t work for anyone. Like, if you want to understand why just read Tom’s book. I’ll add links, obviously in the show notes to it. Just read the book and you’ll understand so much. And again, that sensitive topic. I feel like the pricing is sometimes part of the decision to take on a client or not, but should it be the most important? Is it the most important factor?

Tom Hirst: That’s a really good question. It’s obviously imperative, but it depends on where you are as a freelancer, because if you need the money, then price, obviously it plays a bigger role than if you don’t. But yeah, for me, in my position, price is important. It’s got to be the right price. I’ve got to feel comfortable with it, but also, I’ve got to like the client and I’ve got to like the work and I get; I get a big part of what I do, day to day now is for fulfillment purposes. Really? Money is not quite as important as it was when I was earlier in my career and when I was a younger person. So yeah, I think that for your own. Mental health, I guess, really as well, don’t just take projects for the money, really, especially the quick money, because it always ends up becoming painful in my experience, especially like when I first started some of the quick and easy jobs and never quick and easy. And I did another three that, that kind of looked once and it was like, you know, the lowest-paying clients often the hardest to please. And that is, that is such a true experience. I cannot emphasize how much. Truth is in that one sentence.

Andra Zaharia: It’s so true. Yes, absolutely. For freelancers and often for companies as well. It’s a common thing. I feel like this is kind of a mental pattern. It’s so important that you talked about us and I think that yes, not everyone may be in a place where they can just discount work, but if you get stuck with all these projects and all these clients that you don’t want, you can’t possibly make room for better clients to come on board because you’re not giving yourself that time and that space. And that energy, of course. And I feel like definitely, you know, building confidence in yourself, in your pricing strategy and your processes and your quality of work it does take time. But I think that also, a lot of people struggle with imposter syndrome. They struggle with feeling like they don’t know enough, or they’re not worthy enough to ask for a certain price. I even know freelancers who are incredibly good at what they do, and they have some high-paying customers and they often tell me that “Hey, I know they’re paying me for this, but I feel overpaid.” And still, to this day, they’ve been doing this for so many years. Did you ever deal with imposter syndrome? How did you work your way around it?

Tom Hirst: Yeah! Confidence for me was a major limiting factor. Especially in my early to mid-twenties, I would say. But yeah, I kind of turned that around by exercise. Again, I keep coming back to exercise, but it has been a big driver in a lot of good things that have come out of my freelancing career as well, taught me about consistency, but it also taught me how to be a bit more confident. I don’t really go to the gym for body image reasons, it’s more to keep my mental level. And I think that level of mental stability enabled me to be more confident in my actual abilities to programming, right? And that people would actually care about what I had to say. And the quality of work that I put out was good enough and things like that. So, yeah, that’s the way that I guess I dealt with the imposter syndrome was through exercise and building my own confidence and beliefs in my own self-worth.

Andra Zaharia: Do you talk to other freelancers about these things? Who do you talk to? You know, when you have doubts, when you have to make difficult decisions, who do you talk to and how do you know what is your support system looks like?

Tom Hirst: Yeah. I mean, well at home, my support system is my wife and we talk about it. We’re very similar, but then we’re very different as well. Like socially, we are very similar, but like professionally, we’re very different. She’s a nurse and I’m a freelancer working for myself forever, basically. So, whenever I have to get a bit of perspective, I run things by her and that’s always been really useful for me. I also run a mentorship for other freelances. I’m talking daily with all the freelancers who are at different stages of their journeys. So, running things by them as well is useful, and Twitter as well. I mean, it’s been really big for me the last year or so when I made an active effort to start growing my audience. It’s led to, you know, building like connections with people in DMS and things like ourselves, that’s how we got to know about each other. And I know that I needed to come to someone and ask them, run something by them. If it’s in their area of expertise, then they’ll give me their honest opinion. And that’s really reassuring.

Andra Zaharia: I love that about Twitter as well. I think that you know, I’m in three, let’s say main communities. One is cybersecurity, one is content and marketing in general, and one is freelancing and there are so many great people in all of them. And they all shared the same principles in mindset and that level of openness and connection that happens with the right people. I feel like in access and the level of access because you don’t get this with any other platform, in my opinion, not even LinkedIn, although, you know, that’s what it should be for. But it’s simply the type of people, the quality of people that I found the same. So, some of the most interesting conversations, some of the most wonderful people I’ve met over Twitter. And then sometimes we even met in real life, at conferences, even though they were from… they live on the other side of the world, having this type of conversation right now. If I were to give a piece of advice out of freelancers is that you need to find your tribe. You need to find and look to those people, not only that you admire, but also, you know, put yourself out there during the conversation. And you’re going to feel seen, you’re going to see that people have the same issues. You’re going to find out how they work through them and you’re going to learn so much more than, you know, struggling on your own. And so that just struggling on your own, not necessarily an avoid, but just being on there by yourself and speaking about, you know, talking to other people and how we see them, we have this thing, it’s built into the biology that makes us compare ourselves’ sweaters. And that’s such a big issue for so many people. Social media, definitely amplifies that to the point that it makes you feel very bad about yourself. It induces a lot of anxiety. How do you deal with that as a freelancer? You know, what anchors did you build? What helped you to stay away from comparisons and I just actually retain that energy and use it for yourself to build your own thing and to do good.

Tom Hirst: That’s a good one. I never really compare myself directly to other people, but I use their achievements as my own inspiration. If you get what I’m trying to say, I’ll try and flip it. So, I don’t try and view it as a negative thing. Someone else’s success isn’t my failure. So yeah, well, what I try to do is if I see someone doing, for instance, with Twitter a journey and you know, writing books and things like that, I actually drew a lot of inspiration from all the people were doing. I didn’t think “Oh, that guy made $10,000 on selling books on Gumroad. I’m gonna hate on him” or something like that. Like I thought, you know, I can do this myself and I used it as an inspiration as opposed to seeing it as, why am I not doing that already? And then, I mean, you’re only really fighting against yourself. You’re only wanting to better yourself. The challenge is against you and no one else. So, there’s never a direct comparison between you and another person, because we’re all so individually different. And I think, again, we talked about mindset. The beginning is how you will look at that. Like I said before, you can hate on the people who have got success or use it as inspiration. You know you can compare yourself to other people who are, they’re not like you because no one’s like you. So, you might as well just, get over it and use it in a positive light.

Andra Zaharia: It absolutely is so, so true. And one of the things I learned from doing this and it’ll looking to how other people work is that, you have to play into your strengths, even though that will take some time to actually, you know, internalize and be able to do, but that energy is much better using that direction.
But you have to tap into that abundance mindset. There’s enough for everyone. Yes, there is competition and it doesn’t mean you should slack off and not do what you say. You’re going to… you said you were going to do when you said you were going to do it, but at the same time, you need to realize that everyone has a thing that they can do very well and, you know, cultivating that makes it a strong suit. So why did you talk about this specifically? When did you, what are your thoughts on you on picking a niche on positioning yourself into a very specific universe-specific way as a freelancer?

Tom Hirst: Yeah, I think it’s really important because I think if you try to appear as a Jack of all trades, you just come across as a master of none. And for me, the biggest upside, I guess was focusing on work on WordPress. So, when I first started freelancing, I just said I was going to be a web developer and that’s how I advertise myself. But people will know what they’re looking for more specific than what you give them credit for. So I knew that WordPress was obviously up and coming and people were really, you know, focused on that. And they would want that platform specifically because they knew how easy it was to use. So, what I did is I niche down from the generalist web developer to being a WordPress developer. And that just made everything easier: marketing, SEO. Whether I wrote any content, every email I would send would be easier because I’ve sent it to similar clients before it specializing just has got so many upsides and it just made so much sense. I never really went into an industry niche. I chose to stick to a platform. I know you mentioned that you go into cybersecurity and both can work. I get a lot of questions about this actually. Shall I pick a horizontal or vertical? Should I specialize in software or should I specialize in the industry? And I think all can work. And sometimes the finer that you go, the bigger the rewards. But you’ve got to obviously assess the market size and things like that. Niche for freelances, for me, is something I’m a big proponent of.

Andra Zaharia: Did you make that decision early on or how long did it take for you to reach that moment?

Tom Hirst: Pretty early on. I would say maybe about a year. I would say I was doing a few bits and to be honest, most of it was WordPress anyway, but something kind of just triggered in my mind. I’m thinking I need to amplify that this is my message, essentially in marketing. And yeah, it’s the SEO that really…
What’s the main benefit? So, what I did is I created specific landing pages and one was a freelance WordPress developer. And even, 10 years later, I’m still doing really well for that term. So even something as simple and as practical is, you know, niching down into giving yourself like a really short description of what you do, like a little one-liner or something like that can really help practically in terms of getting traffic to your website and things like that.

Andra Zaharia: It absolutely does. In speaking of that, where do most of your customers come from? I’m really curious how, you know, this evolved over time with you. I feel like, when you start off, it really depends on everyone, but when I started off, I already had like a number of people already knew me.
So I actually got my first customer before I quit my job. And like most of the people that I’ve worked within the past two years are people who already knew me, are people who heard of me, but increasingly now, and especially because of the niche, part I’m getting a lot more inbound request. So that’s how it evolved for me, but I know that for some people it’s the other way around. I’m curious, from your experience, how that evolved and if there were any specific choices that you made to go one way or the other.

Tom Hirst: Yeah. Cool. I mean to go into the history of how I got clients then and get them now. The first thing that I did was just to tell everyone that I was going to go freelance. So, I left University and I just thought I applied for one job. I didn’t get it. And I just thought I’m just going to go freelance because this is really what I want to do. This is what I can see myself staying with for a long time. So I just told all my friends, all my families told them to tell their friends and family, just to see if anybody would want a WordPress Website. And the first client I got came from contact with my dad because I told him that I was doing this about a specific thing. Hearing this buzzword, “WordPress”, he had no idea what it was, but then he made the connection because I told him about it previously. And then we got, I got linked up with this person and ended up being a long-term client for about two years, I think. But yeah, then how lead generation progressed for me was like I touched on before my website buildings, really specific landing pages, advertising just for WordPress websites, nothing else. And even refining that over time as well, to say that I would only take on them from scratch development. So, I went into… I suppose I kind of like to drill down even further in my niche. I said I don’t want to do theme work. I want to do a custom to fall in only. And then that separated me again from the rest of the crowd. So yeah, that’s kind of how it’s progressed for me. And it’s continued to be that my main two or three sources of leads. Now we’re obviously the website we’ve mentioned, repeat business, and just general word of mouth. Those are the three things for me. And I think when you do an issue down that, all becomes easier because people know you then as the really good WordPress developer.

Andra Zaharia: Exactly! Exactly, and they, you know, it’s much easier to build trust and confidence and to explain to people what you do because now with, you know, I feel like there’s a huge fragmentation in types of work and of roles of projects that you can take on. And you don’t have to, obviously trying to be everyone for everything. For everyone is never going to work, simply because they won’t understand why you do. So you need to be very specific and clear about that. When your customers are there, they know it’s for them and there’s like a bunch of things that you can work in the background. I was curious, so you’ve, shared with us so many amazing things, super actionable, very clear, very to the point, what are some resources that you’d recommend, you know, besides from your own, obviously, which I’ll definitely link to what are some resources like books or courses or whatever it was that you found extremely valuable and that actually, you know, helped you level up and cultivate all of this skills and your mindset and so on?

Tom Hirst: Yeah, let’s talk about a recent one. I’m really loving Atomic Habits by James Clear. I think that is, I know that a lot of people mentioned this book, but that’s probably because it’s so good. And I think that it’s kind of, it wasn’t like the groundbreaking for me, but it kind of reaffirmed the things I was already doing. So I kind of noticed that a lot of the things that James talks about in the book I was already doing, the consistency and habit stacking and things like that. So yeah, that book, in particular, is something that I I’ve read once, but I keep going back to it and it just reaffirms my approach. And other than that, I’m trying to think of some other resources. I mean, I haven’t really taken many courses myself. I prefer to read books and watch YouTube videos or things like that. But my pricing mentality to reference that directly kind of was again, reaffirmed by a book called Our Liberal And It’s Notes by Jonathan Sacks And that’s a really, really, really good book for anyone that kind of needs to understand the difference between selling time and selling value. And that, that for me, again, as I said, we have the “atomic habits.” One reaffirmed a lot of the things that I was already thinking and to found an asset that was already talking about, the things that I was already kind of putting into practice in my own life was really, you know, it was really great for me!

Andra Zaharia: And to wrap this up, what’s a decision that you’re building towards, or that you’re, you know, let’s say, gradually kind of constructing in your mind that will shape your future going forward?

Tom Hirst: Yeah, so, I think the main decision for me is going to come to that point where I decided to start ramping down freelancing with clients directly and start to put, you know, a hundred percent of my time into content creation, product creation, and coaching and things like that.
I think that it’s a natural progression for a lot of people. But yeah, I can see that I’m getting to that point now. So, what it is just, you know, getting all my ducks in a row basically to make that transition. So, that is the big decision in my life that I’m leading up to right now.

Andra Zaharia: Thanks so much for sharing all of this. I absolutely loved our conversation and I know that listeners will have so much to unpack and so much to take away from it. I really appreciate your openness and I really can’t wait to see what you do next. Thank you, Tom!

Tom Hirst: Thank you very much, Andra! It’s been great.

I bet it’s easy for you to spot bottlenecks in your work.

You probably know where your workflow gets stuck, where you expect to have delays, and how to navigate all of that. It’s the same for me, but what I find almost fascinating is that we’re sometimes unable to transfer this ability to identify blockers to our personal development path.

With enough coaches, I eventually learned that blockers are one of the things I should pay close attention to when analyzing my behavior, so I can understand why I fall short on the promises I make to myself.

Decision-making and follow-through are especially important when trying to build new habits, the ones that shape our performance and impact our quality of life.

I’ve written about building habits before (part 1, part 2) and today I’ll share a few other resources that I’m using to improve 2 essential habits:

• Keeping active
• Sleep more and better.

The things we say to ourselves and the things we feel when trying to engage in positive, but difficult-at-first behaviors, are huge deterrents for our ability to stick with them. We either trick our brains into picking up a good habit and sticking with it or we allow the brain to trick us into never changing a thing.

Cognitive psychology calls this defensive failure which is essentially what happens when we want to achieve something and we think about it all the time but we just don’t do it.

Engaging in some form of consistent physical activity is one of those things for me.

Since I got a herniated disc a few years ago, I’ve been using this as an excuse to avoid pushing myself further in terms of physical activity. I tried a few things but none of them actually stuck because I told myself all the things I’ll list below.

What made me finally act on it and start doing something every day was seeing the great things my runner friends achieved. It helped me slowly change the story I told myself.

So let’s go through a few blockers that keep us, humans, from making a decision or sticking with it.

“I just don’t think I can do this.”

“You think somewhere in your heart that you just can’t do it. You think that some people have the talent or the genetics to do this thing, and you don’t.

If you believe that at the core of success is talent and genetics, then this rookie mistake matters a lot; it’s the proof you need that you didn’t have what it takes.”

Cognitive psychologist and coach Amanda Crowell reminds us that performance or any type of above-average behavior is rooted in intent and doesn’t happen by itself. You have to make it happen.

“People like me aren’t good at this.”

“Find people like you doing things like this, and share your concerns with them.”

This piece of advice is game-changer and I’ve felt this first-hand!

Freelancing became a lot more approachable and rewarding when I sought out advice from people who had been doing it for years. The same with engaging in any form of physical activity.

“I feel like I have to do this thing, but I don’t really want to do it.”

“Secretly, you don’t want to do it; you just think you should want to do it. Basically, you value it for the wrong reasons.”

Knowing why you want to pick up a habit is crucial for sticking with it. And I don’t mean the why you tell people about. Being true to yourself and admitting the real reason you want to achieve something is fundamental for your success. It’ll get you through the rough spots and keep you going when the going gets tough.

Read this: 3 mental blocks that keep you from doing what you say you want to do

Saying one thing and doing the opposite

“We say we want one thing, then we do another. We say we want to be successful but we sabotage the job interview. We say we want a product to come to market, but we sandbag the shipping schedule. We say we want to be thin but we eat too much. We say we want to be smart but we skip class or don’t read that book the boss lent us.

The contradictions never end. When someone shows up and acts without contradiction, we’re amazed. When an athlete just does the sport, or when a writer just writes the words, we can’t help but watch, astonished at the purity of their actions. Why is it so difficult to do what we say we’re going to do?”

Seth Godin talks a lot in his work about the resistance, a concept created by Steven Pressfield that Seth illustrates beautifully.

The more you read, understand, and notice the resistance, the better you’ll become at defeating it and following through on your good decisions.

Read these:

• Quieting the lizard brain
• The Reason You’re Stuck (and the one best way to avoid the six ways that will keep you stuck)

Doing what’s easy never gets you where you want to be

“The tendency to avoid the effortful decision remained even when we asked people to switch to expressing their decision verbally, instead of pushing on the handles.”

“If you limit your choice only to what seems possible or reasonable, you disconnect yourself from what you truly want, and all that is left is a compromise.”

Picking up a few low-hanging fruit is a good way to ease into a new habit so you can fuel your commitment with quick wins! But don’t make this a habit, otherwise you risk never going deeper, never reaching further, and becoming disillusioned with yourself for not achieving the results you set out for.

Your habits are often a byproduct of friction and convenience.

Humans are wired to seek the path of least resistance, which means the most convenient option is often the winning option.

Make good choices more convenient and bad choices less so. Behavior will improve naturally.

— James Clear (@JamesClear) February 2, 2019

Reset the room

Making it easy for yourself to do good things and removing the blockers that keep you from sticking with your decision is one thing. To make your process more effective, strengthen it by making it difficult to do bad things that affect your decision negatively.

James Clear has some excellent advice on this.

Read this: How to Make Your Future Habits Easy

Find your tribe

Other things that have helped me are to become part of an accountability group and join a groups with similar goals for the main topics I’m interested in – freelancing, content marketing, cybersecurity.

Whatever decisions you’re trying to stick with, I hope these resources make a difference for you. To make them work, pick just one that most resonates with you and run with it! Progress is just a step away!

“Culture develops in a company when decisions that are made prove to be successful and the thinking that went into those decisions becomes embedded into the way we do things around here.”

This snippet from my guest’s most recent book really struck a chord for me because it’s not just about the decision to make cultivating company culture a core goal but what happens after it.

That’s exactly what this episode is about and it concerns you, no matter where you work and what you do.

So let’s briefly unpack this.

“The way we do things around here” reminds me of one of my guiding principles, which comes from Seth Godin’s altMBA: people like us do things like this.

I have this on my LinkedIn profile because it captures a few essential ideas about who I am and how I want to live (not just work!):

• “People like us” – people with a clear set of values (quality, honesty, generosity, transparency, thoughtfulness, etc.)
• “Do things like this” – do things that have a certain quality standard which they cultivate through a specific way that puts those values at work.

Seven simple words that pack a lot of power!

Why is this so important?

Because where and how we work shapes who we become. It can amplify our best abilities and support our growth at an incredible speed. Or it can frustrate us to the point of burnout and losing all motivation. I’ve experienced both and I’m a strong believer that company culture matters. A lot!

And here’s the painful issue Brett uncovers:

“My data shows me that 9 out of 10 companies do not know how to really embed culture, their values, their mission, and their vision, and then manage it over time.”

That means 9 out of 10 companies list values as a point-in-time exercise with no real follow-through and no impact. Nice out of ten companies misses incredible opportunities to build better teams, better products, better marketing, and make a better contribution to their communities.

I’ve seen how this looks in real life. Maybe you have too. It’s demoralizing, especially to me because I want to work with companies who believe in a lot more than making a profit.

My entire conversation with Brett was an exercise in broadening my vocabulary and understanding of company culture. It was clarifying and invigorating to get proof that a healthy culture is not just an idealistic goal, but an achievable and essential one for both our individual lives and our wellbeing as a society.

Brett’s expertise is like an iceberg – you can see some of it with the naked eye but there’s a whole lot more to discover in terms of real-life impact! I hope our conversation helps you see that by taking what you learn and applying it in your own context.

About Brett Putter:

Bretton Putter is an expert on building culture in high-growth companies and also a clear-eyed judge of his own values. He makes decisions based on his beliefs and chooses to work with clients he aligns with. This is one of the many choices he made to achieve a stronger balance between work and leading a healthy life.

Brett ran an executive search firm for 16 years and worked with high growth, early-stage companies to scale their C-level or VP-level teams between Europe and the US, and vice versa. That put him right at the center of the decision that can make or break a company: selecting the right leaders to take it forward, not just in terms of financial growth, but especially in terms of cultural development.

As the author of two incredibly helpful books –
“Culture Decks Decoded: Transform Your Culture Into a Visible, Conscious and Tangible Asset”
and ”Own Your Culture: How to Define, Embed, and Manage your Company Culture” – he openly shares the results of his research, direct experience, and deep inquiry into how companies can design and cultivate a robust culture that enables them to thrive.

I strongly believe every CEO should read his books. The practical techniques Brett shares make embedding a healthy culture into an organization a very achievable goal.

As Founder & CEO of CultureGene, a platform for culture development and culture leadership – Brett practices what he preaches. And you can see and experience that in every resource the CultureGene team creates.

Most importantly, Brett informs his own decisions by keenly observing how the world is changing and drawing essential knowledge that keeps him practicing his values and helping others do the same for themselves, in their own companies.

Listen to this episode to learn more about why company culture is instrumental, no matter your role, plus his great advice for young people trying to carve out a space for themselves in the workplace.

Listen to this episode to learn:

• How the company you work in influences your choices.
• Why working for a company whose values don’t match your own creates internal conflict and depletes you of energy and motivation.
• How the pandemic is transforming not just how we work but our relationship with work entirely.
• Six ways to embed a great company culture into your organization.
• Why Netflix’s culture deck stands out – and why it’s not for everyone.
• How to recruit the best people for your business and how to be recruited for your dream job.
• Why our work environment shapes our decision-making style and also our outlook on life.
• How to recognize the true signals of healthy company culture.

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• “Leaders who didn’t invest in their culture pre-pandemic are finding this transition [to remote or hybrid work] a lot harder.”
• 9 out of 10 companies don’t know how to embed their culture, values, mission, and vision into how the company works.
• “Culture is the glue that keeps the team running in the same direction”
• Young people should write down their personal values and find a job that matches them – even though there may be a lot of trial and error involved at first.
• An undefined culture leads to financial issues, team problems, and poor performance.
• Playing a role at your job – one that doesn’t align with you as a person – causes too much anxiety and negativity to handle. It’s essential to bring your whole self to work.

Connect with Brett:

• LinkedIn
• Twitter
• CultureGene

Resources mentioned in the episode:

• Book: Culture Decks Decoded: Transform your culture into a visible, conscious and tangible asset
• Book: Own Your Culture: How to Define, Embed and Manage your Company Culture
• Article: Netflix’s Company Culture Is Not For Everybody And That’s Exactly How It Should Be
• Netflix Is Not the Problem: In Defense of Strong Organizational Cultures
• How We Sense Company Culture And Why It Matters
• Webinar Replay: Maintaining Company Culture In A Remote Working World

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

It’s time to reflect, to look back at the past year, to handle whatever our past selves have left us with. (There’s a fun inheritance!) It’s time to stare the consequences of our actions in the face and figure it out from here.

Too soon?

Yes, I know it’s only October, but this year has given us more than enough to think about, more decisions to wrestle with than we expected.

This can be an overwhelming process, I know. You’re probably inclined to not even touch it with a 10-foot pole, but my question is:

Can you afford not to? Can you bear letting things unfold however they may?

Many people are waiting for 2020 to be over, so they can start fresh. But the truth is that changing the date won’t change anything unless we change something in our mind.

If you have a strong desire to make one of your projects/plans/wishes happen in 2021 or meet the new decade with a renewed sense of purpose and direction, then this might help.

As a very, very early Xmas gift for you, I’m sharing my step-by-step decision-making system. I’ve been improving it a lot over the last 2 years and I know I can rely on it when I have to make important decisions or choices I’ve never tackled before.

Since I’m planning for the next year, trying to figure out how to approach multiple ambitious goals, I’ll be using it alongside you.

The benefits of having a system to make better decisions

One of the most important things I learned from James Clear’s Atomic Habits was this:

“Goals are good for setting a direction, but systems are best for making progress.”

You’ve probably going to be bombarded with articles about goals. Your relatives may pester you with questions on the same topic: “when are you gonna settle down?”, “why don’t you get married?”, and the like. If you want to blow them off elegantly, just tell them that goals are not enough. You can even go as far as asking them how they approach their own goals. Even if we don’t spend the holidays physically next to them, I have no doubt they’ll ask the same questions over Zoom.

Joking aside, the highest performers I know and interview for the podcast have systems that help them in every aspect of their lives (at work, to keep active, to support their relationships, etc.).

Science backs up the value of systems too (also taken from James Clear’s Atomic Habits):

“When scientists analyze people who appear to have tremendous self-control, it turns out those individuals aren’t all that different from those who are struggling. Instead, “disciplined” people are structuring their lives in a way that does not require heroic willpower and self-control. In other words, they spend less time in tempting situations.”

While the fragment above is focused on habits, we can apply this principle for decision-making as well.

Since today’s environment requires more complex decision-making than ever before, we need all the help we can get. So here’s how you can use your resources to make better choices for your future self.

“To produce change, smooth the path or open a clear channel that links good decisions to effective action.” – Lee Ross and Thomas Gilovich – The Wisest One in the Room

3 pitfalls you can avoid by using a decision-making system:

• the paralyzing effect of uncertainty
• the demanding nature of guesswork
• the deceiving impact of mental biases
• lying to yourself (as humans, we excel at this!).

My decision-making system

1. Accept the responsibility that you’re making a difficult choice.

If you’re going to wish or believe it should be simpler to make decisions like this, you’re wasting energy on something you can’t control. The sooner you acknowledge that it’s not going to be easy and that the only way is through, the sooner you’ll get in a much better mental place to start.

Uncertainty drives cognitive effort, and people are very unhappy with that – this is what also found from our work in doing consumer behavior assessments. Whenever people don’t understand information, they don’t understand the context or the setting, they’re very unhappy.

So, that’s the first step: you need to accept that there’s going to be a lot of effort that you need to put into finding the way to go. Then, you have to be willing to adapt very fast. Meaning, what was right in the morning might not be right in the afternoon when you have new information showing you that it’s safe or not safe to go outside or whatever.

Then, you have to have a flexible mindset. So, you might change your behavior, you might change your habits, and you have to accept that and be willing to do that. Because if you’re rigid, you might be in trouble.

2. Get out of your own head. Write it down.

To start gaining objectivity, you have to get your thoughts out of your head and onto paper. Not a laptop, not a smartphone, not a tablet – on paper.

“Brain scans during the two activities also show that forming words by hand as opposed to on a keyboard leads to increased brain activity.” (Source.)

You can do a brain-dump, a pros and cons list, whatever works to get the questions, dilemmas, and ideas around the decision in front of your eyes.

3. Who is it for?

Once I’ve created some mental space by writing down my thoughts, I try to figure out who it will ultimately benefit from this decision.

Sometimes, I’ll catch myself trying to make a decision that’s skewed by my tendency to please people. In a situation like this, I’d make the decision for someone else, which is not wrong, provided you do it with intent and awareness.

Here’s a quick reminder that keeps me grounded when I find myself in a pickle like this:

“Do no harm, but take no crap.” – Moïra Fowley-Doyle

4. What is it for?

Next, I strive to pinpoint to which fundamental human need the outcome answers:

1. Certainty/Comfort – Am I making this decision so I can get back to my comfort zone or to lull myself into a false sense of security?
2. Uncertainty/Variety – Am I making this decision because I’m scared of the unknown? Am I choosing the option that brings me something new because I crave novelty? (And we all do! Otherwise we wouldn’t spend so much time on social media.)
3. Significance – Am I making this decision so I can feel important or influential? (Careful what your ego’s hungry for.)
4. Love and connection – Am I making this decision because I long for affection and connection?
5. Growth – Am I making this decision because I believe it will help me grow? In which ways do I expect it to help me grow?
6. Contribution – Am I deciding in favor of something that will give me the sense I’m generously contributing to something greater than myself?

Try to work with these questions and write down what you come up with. I promise they’ll help you get more clarity!
(Read more about these 6 needs and their role in the newsletter dedicated to them.)

5. What is within my control? What isn’t?

This is where I define what I know about making the decision and where I try to figure out what I don’t know.

This helps me define what’s within my circle of control and what’s outside of it. This helps me focus on the things where I can make a difference and avoid wasting resources on what I can’t do anything about.

For example: reading the news frequently makes me anxious. Can I control global events? No. So what can I control? I can control how often I check the news (less frequently > less anxiety). I can control my reaction to the bad stuff that happens (“it’s all going to shit” vs “I’m going to prepare for the worst case scenario”). I can vote so leaders will (hopefully) make better decisions. I can donate to causes I care about to help others and show them they’re not alone.

There’s much more you can do than you realize and how you look at these things has a deep influence over your decisions.

6. Spot the friction points

Mapping out what bothers me, what scares me is a great way to spot the difficult bits in the decision. It’s also a tactic to gain objectivity around them and figure out if they’re real or if I’ve just built them in my head.

Making this list is a great opportunity to weigh the risks and rewards of the decision at hand.

With each step, you gain clarity over what can happen as a consequence of your choice.

When I decided I’d go into freelancing, it was partly a choice based on being fed up with the way things worked at my job. But I also didn’t want to make a decision just to get rid of a bad situation. I wanted to choose to build towards a better way or working and living. So I listed the things that I wanted to create and see through to completion and that filled me with energy and strengthened my determination.

At the same time, I was scared I wouldn’t have what it takes to manage all the aspects of the business (accounting stuff, legal stuff, sales and negotiation). So I approached that by finding a great accounting company to work with, by learning from how other freelancers do it, and, guess what? – things started coming together in much better ways than I expected!

In hindsight, it may be easy to see that your choices were right, but it’s also important to know there’s a bit of luck involved as well. However, making room for luck to come in and do its thing is just as important.

7. Use curiosity

Another interesting and useful thing that happens during the decision-making process is that, sometimes, alternative options pop up.

This happens when I do these two things (which I wish I did A LOT more often until now):

• Look at the decision from a place of curiosity – this helps create a bit of emotional distance and sets the mood for a constructive outlook (let your first reaction be: “Well that’s interesting!”)
• Ask follow-up questions – because “being curious is better than being smart”, as James Clear writes.

Again, all the thoughts that go through my mind end up in writing because dealing with random ideas floating around in my head creates more issues than it solves.

8. Investigate how others approach it

If it’s an especially important decision, I’ll go out and read/listen to stories of people who’ve gone through similar situations.

As people, we’re inclined to seek out these direct experiences because they’re a lot more nuanced than what data can provide. If you think this is just you, it’s not.

Speaking of data-driven decisions, there’s a pitfall to avoid:

This is confirmation bias in action. Try to be aware of when choosing one option over the other. Careful how you pick your supportive arguments and try your best not to lie to yourself.

Here’s what neuroscience reveals about how we make choices depending on how we approach them:

“When focused on selection, people tend to think of things that warrant selection. When focused on rejection, in contrast, people tend to think of things that warrant rejection – on reasons for ruling out one or the other option.” Lee Ross and Thomas Gilovich – The Wisest One in the Room

Observe how you’re approaching the decision and remember:

“Data doesn’t make decisions for you. Data informs your decision making.” – Hiten Shah – 5 Habits to Building Better Products Faster

9. Ask for a trusted outsider’s perspective

This is where I turn to my closest friends for advice.

I know there’s not going to support me if I’m about to steer off track. They’re also going to ask uncomfortable, probing questions and won’t let me off the hook until I dig deep enough for answers. This is something I’m very appreciative of.

10. Sit with it

One of the most difficult things we can do is sit with uncertainty. Let it sink in. Stop trying to just get out of an uncomfortable situation and just get it over with. Sleep on it.

But, like all truly valuable things, it’s worth it precisely because it’s not easy.

Watch what happens when you don’t rush through it but rather force yourself a bit to let it steep for a while, like a good cup of white tea.

11. Spot any obvious biases

I’ve mentioned this before, because the list is long and full of horrors. (Please allow my exaggeration for dramatic effect. )

Here’s a snippet I found especially helpful from a report I encourage you to read on the future we’re all heading towards:

“Knowledge is social. We unconsciously prefer ideas that affirm our identity — that remind us we’re part of a larger community, and that are accepted by our group. We suffer from availability cascades, the tendency to remember and accept ideas that we’ve heard before, and have heard recently. We orient toward fears and threats, tending to adopt information that addresses our anxieties. And we drift towards confirmation bias: the tendency to notice and accept information that fits with the things we already believe, and to ignore or dismiss ideas that don’t quite accord. None of which means that human beings are inherently irrational or dishonest; merely that we’re all misled by our own minds, at least some of the time.

Our cognitive systems were built for a very different world than the one we now inhabit—a world of smaller, tighter-knit communities. And their functions remain intact; social sharing and reinforcement can help small groups become more cohesive and more close-knit, and can spread useful information quickly. But it’s hard to imagine a more problematic set of tools for navigating post-modern life. The search and social networks that we use to find and share information are a near-perfect mirror to our biases. Our machines echo our minds.” – Atlas of the decade – Geographies of transition

12. Pay attention to your instinct

I bet you know what it’s like to feel that pit in your stomach when you’ve done something wrong. It happens almost immediately when you’ve gone in the wrong direction.

Cultivating objectivity is essential for good decision-making, but so it is to balance it with intuition. Here’s why:

“Neurologists have discovered that when emotions and feelings are impaired, we actually lose the ability to make decisions. We have no signal of what to pursue and what to avoid.

It is emotion that allows you to mark things as good, bad, or indifferent.” – James Clear – Atomic Habits

Like the Atlas of the decade mentions, we’re wired for emotion and social inclusion, but we’ve also evolved to “metabolize” experiences in a way that can be perfectly explained through language, concepts, or data.

That’s why trusting your gut is something you should try more often. (Even visionary designer Karim Rashid recommends the same.)

13. Leave room for negotiation

An interesting addition I made this year to the process was to see if there’s anything I can negotiate at a later time, once I’ve had more time to gather some real-world data.

This is a way to accommodate my need for freedom, to adapt and stay nimble.

For example, sometimes clients change the scope of a project. Knowing that, we agree to include a clause in our contract that basically says that additional costs may happen as a result of these changes. We also agree not to go over, say, 10% of the value of the entire contract, so they’ll have budget visibility. Simple, clear, and flexible.

“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change.” – Charles Darwin

14. Test it out

Borrowing the experimentation mindset from the world of startups and innovation, I try to see if there’s any way to test if the decision to engage could work.

Whether it’s working on a smaller project with a potential long-term client or trying a new way to deliver my services (say, through a content marketing training), I try not to go at it one step at a time. My reason for this is not that I’m unsure of the work itself, but rather of how the relationship might evolve. Plus, it gives both me and the client predictability over budget, duration, and outcomes.

What I’m trying to say is that it doesn’t have to be all or nothing. It can be a “let’s try to see if this could be what we need/want.”

“Your actions reveal how badly you want something.” – James Clear – Atomic Habits

Is your mind buzzing?

If this seems like a long list for the decision you’re facing, it could mean that the decision is not that important for you. That’s also a signal you can take into account for the choice you’re about to make.

If you’re going into your 2021 planning set on improving your health, your relationships, and your work, here’s something helpful to keep in mind:

“Standardize before you optimize. You can’t improve a habit* that doesn’t exist.” – James Clear – Atomic Habits

*or a system you don’t have (yet!)

Did this work for you? Let me know!

What do you think of this system? Did it help you in any way with your current challenges?

I’m always eager to share experiences and figure out a better path forward.

It’s been:

• 15 years since I stopped watching TV (no cable, no worries!)
• 2 years since I closed my Facebook account
• 2 months since I deleted my Instagram account (after having rarely used it over the past 3 years).

Looking back, I can clearly see it was one of the best decisions I’ve made for my peace of mind, mental health, and general wellbeing.

“But how can you be a marketer without social media?”, you might ask.

The answer is simple: marketing ≠ social media.

There is SO much more you can do to reach the right people, build a following or a community, and promote your work!

Examples include blogging, sending a newsletter, starting a podcast, and many other options to connect and serve your people.

For a long time, I only saw the good side of social media. During that honeymoon period, I basked in the opportunity to connect with people, debate topics, share experiences, and support the causes most dear to me. The dynamic fed my idealism, opened my perspective, and took me farther than I ever imagined I’d go.

But it only took a few years for the other shoe to drop. “Move fast and break things”, Zuckerberg said. And so they did. Facebook particularly contributed to breaking things like privacy, democracy, and mental health in an unscrupulous way.

When I stopped watching TV, I raised some eyebrows. I found alternative ways to keep informed and do it on my terms. The dumpster fire that is 99% of TV content reinforced my decision every time I glanced at a TV someone had on.

It was the same with Facebook and Instagram, but with the volume turned up. These social media channels in particular gradually turned me away by the increasingly toxic effect they had on me.

I felt overwhelmed by FOMO.

Using Facebook and Instagram often felt like homework (just like pop culture sometimes does) because I’m not particularly great at taking and posting pictures. That type of self-expression doesn’t come naturally to me.

My brain was overstimulated and overwhelmed by the information I was constantly absorbing.

My self-confidence was through the floor because Facebook and Instagram excel at hitting the “compare yourself to other people” button and their apparently perfect lives.

Most of all, I felt like I had too little time to think, reflect, and go in depth on things that mattered to me.

The trigger

What triggered me giving up on Facebook was the habits workshop that Cristina and Andrei did in September 2018. It was a powerful experience I wrote about in 2 evergreen newsletters (part I, part II). I still go back to those ideas to this day, digging deeper into them and using them to advance my self-awareness and build my inner balance.

Once I saw the difference it made, I stopped using Instagram but came back to it after a while to see if something had changed for the better. It didn’t, so I finally decided to permanently delete my account.

Life without FB, IG & TV (is goooood!)

One of the best things that came out of this decision is that I don’t know what people are up to anymore. I get to hear directly from them about their experiences, discoveries, and projects. It also became a lot clearer which relationships that started in social media/the online realm were worth consolidating.

I still hang around on Twitter and on LinkedIn (gasp! – it can be great if you curate your feed; yes, really!) but social media is no longer a central aspect of my life.

What’s more, I cut off all notifications from my phone and it was SO liberating! It’s been 2 years since I did it and now it surprises me when someone else’s phone keeps buzzing. The hit of dopamine we get when we see a notification gives us false sense of importance and boosts our ego in an unhealthy way. We end up equating notifications with being needed, wanted, cared for – which is very wrong and very harmful. It’s like eating sugar and wondering why you still feel empty inside.

“We want to be interrupted, because each interruption brings us a valuable piece of information. To turn off these alerts is to risk feeling out of touch, or even socially isolated.” ― Nicholas Carr, The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains

I couldn’t be more grateful to myself for having gone of Facebook, Instagram, and TV.

Because I carved up more mental space for myself, I was able to keep writing my newsletter, to start the podcast, and to dedicate more time to reflect on my long-term plans, which resulted in me building my freelance business.

I’m not advocating for everyone to stop using social media. That’s not the point. Instead, I’m making a plea for considering the cost and benefits of doing so without a clear intent or outcome. I’m advocating for not letting social media distort reality to the point where we minimize our chances of self-reflection. I’m rooting for people to decide to build themselves from the inside out – and follow through on it!

I see so many freaking out after watching The Social Dilemma on Netflix and I’m glad they’re realizing the consequences of their habits. We should be scared of social media’s addictive effect. And we should also do something about it.

“Wise decisions can’t happen in crowded minds”

As a fellow communication professional and yoga teacher said “There is no room for a step forward as long as there’s a constant “rush hour” in our life.”

In an age where everything pulls away at our identity, when we’re overwhelmed by more information than we’ll ever need, we can find great value in slowing down and being more thoughtful about what we consume and how.

If I hadn’t chosen a digital diet that suits my needs, I’m convinced that it would’ve taken significantly longer to make the decisions that led me to this point where I can enjoy more independence and autonomy. Not to mention that I wouldn’t have regained focus and the ability to do deep work as I can do now, or the time to read more.

“In the quiet spaces opened up by the prolonged, undistracted reading of a book, people made their own associations, drew their own inferences and analogies, fostered their own ideas. They thought deeply as they read deeply.” ― Nicholas Carr, The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains

Life’s too short to spend so much of it on social media.

If you want to understand the neuropsychological effects that social media and the internet in general has on our brains, I highly recommend you read The Shallows.

“What we’re experiencing is, in a metaphorical sense, a reversal of the early trajectory of civilization: we are evolving from being cultivators of personal knowledge to being hunters and gatherers in the electronic data forest.” ― Nicholas Carr, The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to Our Brains

It’s up to each of us to reverse that trend.

Knowing this, what will you decide to do for yourself?

From building trust to exploring the power of good questions, we covered quite some ground in the first part of this interviews-focused series. Now it’s time to dig a bit deeper and find out how doing them enable your growth across the board.

Here are more ways interviews leveled up how I think and how I act.

I noticed patterns in behaviors and mindsets

Whether I interview DJs, customers, innovators, developers, or other marketers, there’s one thing I always pay attention to: what they talk about repeatedly.

The more interviews I did, the better I became at paying attention to what people have in common.

For example, while interviewing guests about their decision-making process for the How do you know? Podcast, I noticed they all have a growth mindset fueled by constant learning and introspection.

While exploring top performers’ mindsets through conversations, I noticed the key principles and ideas they all point towards. The more interviews I did, the more I recognized the strong alignment between what they preach and what they practice. This consistency indicates the behavioral and mindset patterns that underpin their ability to perform, to lead, to be better people – for both themselves and others.

We become what we do constantly. Another recurring fact about top performers is that they’re very intentional when pursuing certain paths or goals. Using this approach, they built a self-reinforcing virtuous circle that powers their performance and capacity to stay true to themselves.

Keeping an eye out for timeless principles did a couple of things for me:

• it fueled my own determination
• it helped me access resources or opened up possibilities that I hadn’t considered before
• it contributed to improving my strategic thinking
• it broadened my range at work, adding diversity, fulfillment, and excitement!

For example, I can easily switch between content marketing and product marketing because I have a strong understanding of how customers use the product.

Another interesting byproduct is that I made my skills and knowledge transferable. I use what I learn from my personal projects in my freelance work and vice versa. What’s more, I can apply what I learn from one industry to another.

I developed my empathy (and became a fierce customer advocate)

What I particularly love about doing interviews is that they’re a key learning experience with multiple lessons to teach at the same time.

When applying what I’m constantly learning from doing interviews in my work, it helps me understand how to connect to people from any context, in any role, with any type of experience. Staying curious about what they have to say enables me to understand how I can be more helpful and facilitate more connections like them.

Because people saw this in the interviews I did, I ended up working with a customer to create an entire podcast season dedicated to empathy! It was an incredible opportunity to talk to some of the most amazing women in marketing and design and discover all the ways they use empathy to improve their lives and other people’s.

Here’s another way I use empathy in my work: customer development interviews – a very powerful reality-check! They reveal the difference between what companies sell and what customers use their products/services. In that space, there’s a huge potential for improvement and growth.

Because I approach interviews with genuine curiosity, I slowly became a better listener. In this context, it’s impossible not to become more empathetic when talking to customers one by one, looking at them as complex individuals and not just a collection of demographic and psychographic traits.

When exposing myself to so many different use cases, points of view, needs, and desires, it’s impossible not to be humbled. It etches into the brain the key idea that we work mostly with assumptions that always need to be tested with real people. This helped me internalize that I’m never a benchmark for anything I create for others – only customers are.

In turn, this helped me become a fierce customer advocate and get better at no-ego marketing.

Call me a dreamer, but I really believe that companies are just groups of people trying to use their gifts to help others while helping themselves in the process. Or so it should be. That’s the kind of company I (want to) work with.

I cultivated a knack for specificity

One of the key pieces of feedback I offer not just to content creators, but also to people, in general, is “be more specific.”

Because your customers and your audience are not an amorphous mass of automatons, they don’t respond to generic messages. Trying to capture a large audience with blanket statements will get you nowhere. It’s the “try to be something for everyone and you’ll end up being nothing to no one” principle at work. Large audiences don’t necessarily convert into paying customers. In fact, the switch happens more often for people particularly passionate by – you guessed it! – specific topics.

In today’s world where everyone’s drowning in information all the time, specificity becomes invaluable. Generic content is devoid of value by default. And you can only be specific if you know your customers well enough if you learn what stories they resonate with, what drives them, what moves them, and which elements of your work (product, service, brand) play into their needs, hopes, and aspirations.

For a content-focused perspective, check out The Specificity Strategy in which Benji Hyam does a fantastic job explaining it. Bookmark it because you’ll want to come back to it, trust me.

Because I read significantly more interviews than I did, I couldn’t help but notice how lackluster and superficial most questions are.

So I spent a lot of time doing research because I was genuinely invested in the topics I interviewed people about. I wanted to ask them questions they’d never been asked. I wanted to delight and surprise. I wanted to get them excited and make it a rewarding experience for them!

Designing specific questions that captured the most interesting and unexplored aspects of their work and life got me there. Magic ensued every time!

I got better at conveying value, expertise, and insight

I work with startups and large companies alike and what they have in common is that they need to empower their team members to share their expertise. This is a growing trend in content marketing and I expect it to continue to surge in popularity.

Until a few years ago, large companies were still reluctant to put some of their brand value in the hands of employees. But they’ve had a lot of competition from smaller or mid-sized companies who had less internal politics to navigate. These fast-movers leveraged tactics like interviews, opinion articles, and contributions to roundups to build their brand, nurture an audience, and build trust in their companies. Now, large organizations are doing it too, especially with ghost writing.

Interviews can be the most effective way of collecting, documenting, and sharing internal expertise. This internal pool of know-how often goes uncaptured and unreflected in companies’ marketing efforts. Having conversations with the team enables me, the content strategist, to capture many types of specific information and stories in a short amount of time. I can “translate” them into content for the website, articles, campaign ideas, product-focused assets, and a lot more!

They also enable people outside the organization – customers, partners, key opinion leaders, journalists, etc. – to see the human side of the business. And this is the essential element that moves customers from a transactional relationship to a loyalty-based one!

For example, doing interviews helped me collect keywords and ways people naturally express their ideas. This improved my content and enriched it with stories and relatable experiences that drive a-ha! moments for readers and customers. In doing so, I ended up connecting teams to their customers and the broader community.

One of the most-read articles I’ve ever written (What is ransomware?) began with such a true story. That article has for over a year on the first page of Google, right after Wikipedia, and brought a boost of 800% in traffic when WannaCry hit in 2017.

Plus, the benefit of talking to industry leaders and having direct access to their expertise is an invaluable opportunity to learn fast. And I never turn down a chance to do that!

Here’s another example for you: this 19000 words-long article made of thoughtful and enthusiastic contributions from over 30 cybersecurity specialists. It all started with me asking them a question I have gotten from a customer: is internet security a losing battle? 

Even though it’s one of the longest articles I’ve written, it’s also one that has the strongest time on page (~18 minutes the last time I checked), an indicator that readers are genuinely captivated by the ideas in it.

One contributor emailed me saying:

“I got really excited about the topic and wrote around 3000 words but realized it was too long, so I cut it down a bit.”

I had touched a chord! I had managed to get these incredible experts as invested in the topic as I was. This is still one of my favorite articles to date.

I built my personal brand and improved my writing and speaking

I’ve interviewed people in person, via email, and in podcasts. I’ve talked to them on stages, in clubs, and various event venues. I’ve moderated fireside chats, talked to tens of job applicants, and was on the other side of the recording device quite often.

By saying “yes” to these opportunities (as many of them involved volunteering), I exposed myself to wildly different experiences and contexts. Without realizing it, interviews became the space where I could lean into that 20% of me that’s an extrovert.

These experiences made me a better writer. They enhanced my ability to form my own ideas and express them. They improved my capacity to frame and contextualize ideas. Interviews made me better at spotting sources of value in other people’s work. They taught me how to capture and tell stories that resonate with others and serve their own purposes.

With each new conversation, I learned something new about myself. I collected ideas, frameworks, questions, perspectives, and examples. And then built on top of them.

This is how I came up with the idea of starting my own podcast and exploring a complex topic – decision-making – along with generous and brilliant guests. It’s how I got tens of ideas for articles (case in point: my list of article drafts).

Doing interviews is how many leaders in the local and international community noticed me. One of these leaders hired me for two roles and became my valued mentor. Another became my customer when I started freelancing. We worked together for an entire year. Others invited me to their own podcasts, giving me a chance to tell my own story, which I deeply treasure. (Because I’m more comfortable with talking about my work when someone else asks me about it.)

Every ounce of energy I put into doing interviews – and getting better at it – was worth it! That’s why I continue to do it.

I became a better human

Talking to other people about the things that matter to them changed me.

To feel that connectedness, to inspire enthusiasm in each other – those experiences helped me become a better conversation partner, a more present, and empathetic one.

Doing interviews has always been a great source of personal and professional achievement. Having one on one conversations with great people is not just work for me – it’s a way to enjoy life, to grow, to give and receive (energy, wisdom, support, and a lot more!).

With each interview I broadened my views. Like adding pieces to a puzzle, I filled in some gaps, discovered a lot more, and developed new ways to see the world. That’s a gift and I’m grateful to everyone who shared a few minutes or hours of their life with me in a meaningful way!

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In the next instalment of the series, I’ll share my process for acing interviews and a bunch of resources to feed your thinking and tactics.

What do hugely popular electronic music artists, business owners, cybersecurity specialists, coaches, entrepreneurs, product managers, software developers, investors, and even a Master Whiskey Taster have in common?

At some point over the last 10+ years, I asked them the best questions I could.

With every interview I did, I unwittingly developed a core skill that has improved my life in more ways than I ever anticipated. What started as a passion transformed into one of the cornerstones of my work.

I can’t remember when it started or how, but I find good interviews captivating, their power to reveal, connect, and inspire almost boundless. Minds colliding, world views under debate, people opening up in ways they’ve never done before – it’s all quite magical to me.

For more than a decade, I’ve been cultivating this passion. I gradually turned it into one of my (not-so-secret) tactics to create content with heart, strategy, and purpose. Content that builds relationships and genuinely helps. Content that triggers a-ha! moments.

My first high-profile interview was with James E. Grunig, PR theorist, Professor Emeritus for the Department of Communication at the University of Maryland. My latest one was with Dr. Ana Iorga, a fascinating neuroscientist. Dozens of experiences that made my life richer and more rewarding fill the space between these two conversations. From the feedback I got, I know at least some of the people I interviewed feel the same.

Nothing can replace talking to people if you want to create content that speaks to their true needs and desires. If you want to develop this ability and explore how it can help you grow across the board, stick around for this series! You might just discover ways to do better work and get more satisfaction from it, all while meeting great people along the way.

I learned how to get people to open up

Doing a good interview means having a great conversation. Plain and simple. And you can’t have that without trust.

As an interviewee, you have to trust that the person who asks you delicate questions is genuinely interested in your story. You have to trust that you can share more nuanced, personal aspects of your work and life. You must be sure your opinions and concerns won’t be taken out of context and misrepresented.

To have this intimate conversation, you, the interviewer, need to bridge the gap of having no prior context or relationship. The only way to do it is through empathy. If you genuinely care about that person’s perspective or the topic they’ve mastered, show them! Come up with thoughtful questions they’ve never been asked before. Use follow-up questions to prove you’re not there to tick things off your checklist.

Learn how to let the conversation flow naturally. Give them space to answer, without rushing to the next thing on your list that’s completely disconnected from what they just talked about.

To convey both trust and empathy, you need to be fully present. If the interviewee feels you’re going through a series of questions, they’ll provide answers in line with that. If they feel you’re only there to get it done, they’ll pick up on it and never truly open up or provide more than the standard replies they’ve given 1000 times before. If they feel your goal is just to get something juicy and scandalous from them, they’ll feel exploited and become defensive.

For example, a Greek artist I once interviewed told me: “you’re the first one to actually ask me about my music!” He’d already been through more than a few interviews where various journalists only wanted to know about his love life. Imagine how that felt for him.

Don’t exploit someone simply because they accepted to give you an interview. Don’t go into it thinking you’re doing them a favor. Like all relationships, good interviews involve reciprocity.

An interview is a unique opportunity to explore someone’s mindset, their perspective on their industry/specialty/life. They’re a chance to connect with someone based on your mutual interest in a particular topic. Treasure it!

Since an interview is a conversation, you’ll need to engage your interviewee with thought-provoking questions to get meaningful answers. Let’s see how you can do that.

[bctt tweet=”The 3 things you need to get people to open up for an interview: empathy, trust, being fully present. Here’s how to use them & what to avoid:” username=”andrazaharia”]

I discovered how to use the value of context

Interviews are an incredibly powerful way to understand which context elements made an impact on the person you’re talking to. Some of the factors that can reveal stories and inflection points include:

• where they grew up
• the challenges they faced in their environment
• the opportunities that came with moving to another city/country
• how important relationships in their lives evolved, etc.

For example, customer development interviews reveal how your product or service fits into your customer’s life and routine. Depending on their context, they might perceive its value in a very different way than you think.

During a job interview, gauging the candidate’s context can highlight specific qualities that make them a better fit for a different role than they applied for. Alternatively, context might reveal their leadership capabilities.

No matter their format, interviews are a window into someone else’s life which, for me, is always a privilege and a chance to learn.

Context illuminates different sides of ourselves, our abilities, and our mindset.

To harness its potential, we must see the context from as many different angles as possible. Just like a photographer uses light to reveal facial expressions, so we, as communicators, can use questions to the same effect.

I understood the power of good questions

Asking questions is one of the most powerful ways to learn. However, I haven’t always known this. Being an introvert, it took me a while to move from asking questions in my head to saying them out loud, especially to people I admired and found intimidating.

Back in the day when we didn’t have social media, high performers, business people, and celebrities didn’t seem so approachable as they do now. To break through my shell and discover the fantastic opportunities that interviews bring, my excitement and passion for a topic had to overpower my fear of sounding/looking stupid in front of people that blew my mind.

With each question I asked, I gained a bit more confidence and fed my curiosity a bit more. Although I heard it many times over, the phrase “that’s a good question!” still feels good. And now I can tell the difference between a genuine compliment and the same phrase used just to buy a little more time to think about the answer.

A good question can change a lot of things.
It can change perspective.
It can help reframe things and reveal an answer.
It can kindle change.
It can trigger an epiphany.
It can inspire a solution.
It can create focus and clarity.
It can create empathy and connection.
It can boost self-confidence (for both the interviewer and the interviewee) in a “wow, I didn’t know I had that in me!” kind of way.
A good question can unlock potential in a surprising and electrifying way. It can help us make unexpected connections – surprising not just others, but sometimes even ourselves.

In contrast, a bad question can alienate, create distance, make people defensive.

Here’s an example from Shonda Rhimes, a TV producer, screenwriter, and author. She is also the showrunner of Grey’s Anatomy, Scandal, How to Get Away with Murder, and many other wildly successful productions:

“I cannot count the number of times some nice reporter has placed a little battered silver recorder in front of my face, flicked it on, and, with a kind smile, asked me what I call the Big Questions: How do I manage work and home? What tips do I have for working moms? What is my secret to finding balance in a busy world?

I get asked the Big Questions in almost EVERY SINGLE INTERVIEW I do. I hate the Big Questions. I hate being asked the Big Questions ALMOST as being asked the Diversity Question – “Why is diversity so important?” (which ranks for me as one of the dumbest questions on the face of the earth, right up there with “Why do people need food and air?” and “Why should women be feminists?”).

But as much as I hate the Big Questions, I don’t want to be rude to the very nice reporters who ask. I don’t think the reporters mean any harm in posing the questions – I think people genuinely wonder.”

– Shonda Rhimes, Year of Yes

I’ve answered questions just as often as I’ve asked them. That’s why, over the last decade, I collected questions from books, coaching and therapy sessions, other interviews I read, sociology, psychology, and a bunch of other disciplines. I documented some of them (e.g. 100 questions for better decisions) but most just sit in my head, popping up whenever I need them and connecting the dots in unpredictable – and wonderful – ways.

If you’re curious to experiment with this, I recommend you read The Coaching Habit and work with some of the questions there. Feel for yourself what it’s like to have to answer these questions. Observe what that experience brings forth. I guarantee you’ll be able to have better conversations not just with yourself, but with others too.

At the end of the day, I love how questions help me step into someone’s life without being intrusive. It’s beautiful to see how they get people to talk about things that are important for them in a way that feels natural and rewarding.

“Ask what cannot be Googled,” as the brilliant Alexandra Petrus, AI Product Strategist said.

I collected powerful stories and examples

Prodigious thinkers have been saying this for decades but it bears repeating (because it’s true): moving someone to act or make a change is virtually impossible without telling a good story.

While good stories are abundant these days, communicators, business owners, or product creators don’t often capture them. If you go to a website and you feel it’s designed for a generic audience, it most likely misses two things: a story and specificity. Interviews help fill in both those gaps.

Interviewing customers helps you:

• build case studies
• map explicit benefits to use cases
• capture the language they naturally use when talking about the product (hint: it’ll never be “synergy” – please stop using this word).

Interviewing industry leaders enhances and expands your perception of the field. That’s because they touch on nuances and subtleties that stem from extensive experience.

If you keep an eye (and ear) out for quotable phrases, you can find inspiration for a website, a manifesto, guides, eBooks, podcast episodes, and a lot more!

Document this information! Leverage it by organizing it into a framework, depending on what you need. It can be a positioning document (April Dunford has the best one!), a content repurposing strategy, or even a product roadmap.

Use interviews to bridge the gap between you and your customers. Dissolve that distance which appears while you’re busy doing your work and becoming better at it. (It happens to all of us.) If you work interviews into your schedule, you’ll keep your finger on the pulse and connect to your customers and peers in a meaningful way.

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In the second part of this series, we’ll explore more ways to hone and improve your skills by doing interviews and how you can apply them to your own work.

Speaking a few languages comes in handy on holiday, I’ll admit it. But there’s something that matters a lot more to me: observing how language shapes our perception.

As a non-native English speaker, it’s fascinating for me to compare how decision-making differs from one language to another.

In Romanian we “take” decisions (literal translation).

From this perspective, I imagine myself next to a supermarket shelf full of potential scenarios that a decision could unlock. It’s not just packed with outcomes for yes/no options. It’s chock full of nuanced approaches that are a lot closer to what happens in real life.

As I see it, to choose, in Romanian, is to make that decision yours, to commit to it and follow it through, observing how it changes you and what it teaches you.

This perspective highlights that decisions are not external to us, although we (sometimes) try to be as rational as possible when choosing one option over its alternatives. I believe decisions become interwoven in the fabric of our identity. The more we own them, irrespective of their outcome, the more they can teach us about ourselves.

People “take” decisions not only in Romanian but also in Spanish (“tomar una decisión“), French (“prendre une décision“), Portuguese (“tomar uma decisão“), and Italian (“prendere una decisione“).

English has a different way of framing this process because, in English, we make decisions.

Decision-making or decision-taking?

To me, this implies that decision-making is an art. The books, articles, podcasts, and conversations I’ve had with people around this process speak to its far-reaching, profound consequences that manifest not only after making the decision but also before it.

To make a decision is to dedicate ourselves to building it in our head. Whatever the method, making decisions entails playing with the future in your head to see where things might go from the moment you choose.

This makes us all artists in a sense, giving us the power to be endlessly creative with no real-world consequence. Before we make the decision, we get to project ourselves in potential scenarios and think about how we might feel about the result we opted for.

Wandering inside our heads like this gives us the chance to observe ourselves, which is not something we often get to do. This type of reflection, when given enough consideration, can change us.

So when we arrive at the moment when we have to decide, we already know ourselves more intimately and, maybe, juuuust maybe, we can be a bit more honest about what it is that we truly want and need to happen as a result of this choice.

Making a decision also entails deep involvement. You’re the one in charge of the process. You get to call the shots. Steer the ship. Turn the wheel. (I know, you got it. )

No matter the circumstances, making a decision means bringing it into existence, transforming it from an idea in your head to a real-life occurrence. That’s a pretty big deal when you look at it like this. It’s also enough reason to decide with intent, as I wrote in a different article.

[bctt tweet=”No matter the circumstances, making a decision means bringing it into existence, transforming it from an idea in your head to a real-life occurrence.” username=”andrazaharia”]

The English language – which can be beautifully nuanced – has another main way of looking at decision-making: the process of reaching or arriving at a decision.

If a decision is a destination, the most important component becomes the journey to it – as it’s often the case. It’s this journey that I explore with the guests on the How do you know? podcast.

I believe we can become better humans by learning how to experience this process of exploration. If we notice it, if we allow it, this can be an excellent space for growth.

When comparing these two perspectives – “taking” vs. making decisions – I have to say I’d much rather work with English. I like to get my hands dirty because that’s how I learn the most.

Throughout the last few years, I became increasingly aware of the necessity of building a rich vocabulary. It enables us to talk about the most difficult things that go on inside our heads.

I don’t necessarily mean learning fancy terms from Ph.D. papers (although it’s perfectly fine if it works for you). Vocabulary consists of ways to see the world that are more flexible, more open, more inclusive. Here’s what I mean.

Elizabeth Gilbert partners with inspiration instead of waiting for it to manifest.

“You can believe that you are neither a slave to inspiration nor its master, but something far more interesting — its partner — and that the two of you are working together toward something intriguing and worthwhile.” – Elizabeth Gilbert – Big Magic

Tom Waits doesn’t write a song, he catches it. He also asks his songs to retry delivery at a more appropriate time.

“Excuse me, can you not see that I’m driving? If you’re serious about wanting to exist, come back and see me in the studio. I spend six hours a day there, you know where to find me, at my piano. Otherwise, go bother somebody else. Go bother Leonard Cohen.” – Tom Waits

To me, these two attitudes towards the creation process are a great lesson. They teach me there are endless ways to think of a decision:

• we can take it,
• make it,
• go on adventures to find it,
• partner with it,
• or even allow it to pick us by making ourselves available.

I hope this helps expand the way you think about your next decision and widen your horizon to notice new and exciting possibilities.

Do you know those conversations that light up your brain in all sorts of new ways?

That’s what it was like to interview Ana Iorga, consumer neuroscience expert.

Our entire conversations felt like a crash course in how the brain works when it makes decisions. Talking to Ana was not just an opportunity to discover fascinating facts about how our brain shapes our perception of reality, but also a chance to see how these facts work in real-life situations.

Ana’s examples cover a wide range of familiar experiences, explained through a lens that inspires reflection, encourages self-awareness, and makes us more intentional about our actions.

To give you a glimpse into her expertise, here’s an excerpt to the “Ethics and Neuromarketing” book she co-wrote:

“The rationale behind neuromarketing is that human decision-making is not primarily a conscious process. Instead, there’s increasing evidence that the willingness to buy products and services is an emotional process, where the brain uses shortcuts to accelerate the decision-making process. At the intersection of economics, neuroscience, consumer behavior, and cognitive psychology, neuromarketing focuses on which emotions are relevant in human decision-making and uses this knowledge to make marketing more effective.”

Our relationship with brands was just one of the topics we covered, with lots more around making decisions in survival mode, why biases aren’t inherently bad, and how our past experiences equip us for navigating a world running at top speed.

I was reminded how overconfident we all are of our choices when, in fact, peeking behind scenes reveals a very complex – and often messy – process. That’s why it’s good to be a bit skeptical of information from others and especially of our own reactions to it.

“I’m having fun observing myself,” Ana said. By the end of this episode, I hope you’ll feel the same way!

About Ana Iorga:

Dr. Ana Iorga is a consumer neuroscience expert with a deep abiding passion for bringing science to marketing.

With a Ph.D. in Consumer Neuroscience and a double MBA in Marketing and Finance, she has spent over a decade working with businesses as well as academia.

Having founded one of the fastest-growing full-service advertising agencies, Ana has deep expertise in the world of design, communication, branding, and the creation of marketing campaigns for brands across diverse industries such as Consumer Goods, Retail, Finance, and Media. Given her unique academic background, Ana then set out to found Buyer Brain, a consumer neuroscience company that focuses on delivering non-conscious insights that drive deeper customer engagement.

Listen to this episode to learn:

• How our brain makes decisions and reacts to highly unpredictable environments
• Which type of processing dominates our decision-making process (subconscious vs conscious)
• How we make decisions when we’re in survival mode
• Why our brain perceives intense cognitive effort as pain and what that means for the choice you make
• How emotions influence our choices
• The way our decision-making process influences our relationships with brands
• Why it’s important to look at the gap between what people say and what they do – both in others and in ourselves
• How a neuroscientist makes decisions knowing all this and more

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• around 95% of the information processing in our brain happens at the subconscious level
• at the brain level, the cognitive effort is perceived as pain – the more difficult it is for us to understand something, the more pain we experience
• when overwhelmed by a new, complex situation we have no reference for, our instinct is to freeze and try to absorb all the information we can to make the best decision possible
• our inability to immediately understand a situation, an idea, a problem makes us unhappy
• being in survival mode make sus very risk-averse, which influences how we make important decisions
• strong, important relationships become even more important when we’re in survival mode, which makes us crave even more assurance from the people or brands involved in these relationships
• our brain uses biases as shortcuts but we can also consciously use them as warning signs to questions our preconceived notions and reactions
• the brain’s structure and how it processes information doesn’t change, giving every one of us a chance to better understand it and improve it.

Connect with Ana:

• LinkedIn
• Buyer Brain

Resources mentioned in the episode:

• Ethics and Neuromarketing: Implications for Market Research and Business Practice – research paper, the book version
• Kahneman’s framework of conscious and subconscious processing – the dual-process theory
• The Zaltman metaphor elicitation technique (ZMET)
• What Got You Here Won’t Get You There – book
• How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain – book
• Predictably Irrational – book
• Nudge: Improving Decisions About Health, Wealth, and Happiness – book

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Full episode transcript:

Andra Zaharia: So, I’d love to start by unpacking the core elements from this paragraph in “The Ethics in Neuromarketing” research paper you co-authored in 2017 – which I’ll link to, in the show notes. The paragraph reads, “The rationale behind neuromarketing is that human decision-making is not primarily a conscious process. Instead, there’s increasing evidence that the willingness to buy products and services is an emotional process, where the brain uses shortcuts to accelerate the decision-making process. At the intersection of economics, neuroscience, consumer behavior, and cognitive psychology, neuromarketing focuses on which emotions are relevant in human decision-making and uses this knowledge to make marketing more effective.” So, if we look at the bigger picture and go beyond marketing, what would be those emotions that dominate human decision-making?

Ana Iorga: Okay, so, I’ll answer your questions about emotions, but first of all, I want to introduce another concept that is going to help us through our discussion today, and that is related to Kahneman’s framework of conscious and subconscious processing. So, he divided the functional brain into two systems: system one and system two. And he calls system one ‘the subconscious processing’ that is very fast and relies on heuristics and biases; it does not use too much energy and it is the primary state that our brains want us to be in, throughout the day. And I’ll come back to that later. And system two is the ‘brain processing’ when we are paying attention to what is going on around us; we are focused, we use a lot of energy to process the information around us. It’s mainly when we’re learning something new. So, for example, when you learn to ride a bike, you’re in system two because you have to pay attention to how to coordinate your body and when you already learned how to ride a bike, it goes to the subconscious processing, where you don’t have to think about it; you just keep doing it and you are riding the bike.

Ana Iorga: So this framework is very important for us to understand how decision-making happens. And, as I said, there is a lot happening at the subconscious level. So, Zaltman, a professor from Harvard – his theory is that around 95% of the processing happens at the subconscious level. That doesn’t mean that our decisions are non-conscious or subconscious, that we’re not aware of our decisions. That means that we’re not consciously processing what we do throughout the day. And this is a very good thing because if we were to do that, we’d get tired so early in the morning, and would not be able to do anything. And so, I can give you an example for this. So, it’s like, when you wake up in the morning, you rely on past experiences and you know that it is safe for you to get off the bed, to go in the kitchen, to make a coffee – there’s no monster jumping to eat you. Whereas, if you don’t know that and you have to consciously process every step you take, you might not get off the bed until midday.

Ana Iorga: So, the way the brain processes information is also related to the emotions that drive our behavior, and we are wired since kids to pursue the activities that will bring us pleasure, that will bring us a reward, and to just stay away from those activities that would get us hurt or punished. So, this is how my kids learned the concept of hot. It was enough for them to touch a hot pot once and they knew exactly what hot meant. They didn’t touch it the second time. And throughout our lives and our behavior as consumers, employees, spouses, parents, we try to enhance those experiences that bring us pleasure and to stay away from those experiences that make us feel bad. So, this also translates into our experience with a brand. So, whenever a brand creates an unpleasant experience, why would we choose to continue a relationship with that brand?

Ana Iorga: And now, an unpleasant experience? This is very interesting. We do a lot of work in measuring customer effort, and at the brain level, effort is perceived as pain. So, whenever we go through some effort that we have to put into, for example, finding out about our Telekom bill, why was there any mismatch between what we thought we had to pay and the bill, or we need to call the bank to fix our credit cards, anything – anytime we go through this effort, our brain perceives it as pain. So, it’s like if someone was hitting us. We’re not aware of that pain, of course, but there is a red flag, like an alarm in our brains, “This experience is not okay. Why do you keep doing that? So, go away! Move to another company. Just leave all the premises.” So, we, as customers, and companies are not really aware of that, of the huge impact that effort has on our decision-making and on our relationships with brands. And that translates to emotions, actually – to emotions and the pain that we feel.

Andra Zaharia: I find that very interesting! There are a couple of things I would like to unpack here. So, first, our brain’s perception of effort and treating it as pain. Is this one of the factors why people tend to avoid difficult decisions or postpone them, simply because they’re triggered that way? So, what brings a difficult decision, something that we may have not faced in our lives, yet, what brings it to the surface? What makes it surface from the subconscious level, where it’s basically habitual, to bringing it to our awareness in a way that makes us stop and reflect about it? What would be the factors that cause it to surface like this?

Ana Iorga: I’m not so sure I understood your question. So, you’re saying, if we are faced with a difficult decision, how do we process it consciously?

Andra Zaharia: Yes!

Ana Iorga: Okay. So, mainly, whenever we have to make a decision, our brains look back into memory, searching for a similar situation, and searching for the actions that we took and the results. So, the brain is a comparison machine and it goes very, very fast, sifting through all the information that we have, trying to see which situation matches the one that we are in, currently. If it finds a favorable outcome, then pretty much, the behavior is going to be similar to what we did in the past because our brain knows, well, if you did that, and it was safe, do it again; you might be safe. And of course, it takes into account context and some other elements that we have around us. So, this is how the processing happens. This is not conscious. We might remember consciously something that happened in the past, but most of the processing is subconscious and our brain just feeds the conscious level a shortlist saying “Hey, you can do this or that or that and this is what might happen”, so just kind of decide what is the course and what you want to do. This is pretty much how it works.

Andra Zaharia: That’s very helpful because of the context that we live in now, where everyone perceives that change has accelerated a lot, that there is more uncertainty than humans have ever dealt with and complexity and everything is happening at the same time. How much can our past experiences indicate what future success looks like? To sum this up, I found a phrase that stuck with me and it’s actually a book that’s called, “What Got You Here, Won’t Get You There”, and I found that very interesting because it caused me to stop and challenge myself and figure out if these past experiences can actually be as helpful as I think they would be, to indicate a potential solution to a problem or a specific choice. So, how do you think that’s maybe changing right now?

Ana Iorga: So if we refer to the current situation with the pandemic and everything that we’re going through, it is very interesting that our brains, especially younger people, we don’t have any similar situation to compare. We’ve never been through such a greater threat, let’s say, we’ve never been through a critical situation like that. So, our brain is really lost in telling us which is the best path. So, for me, since I started working in consumer behavior, I developed this eye to observe things and to analyze them consciously. So, when the whole thing happened also in Romania, I started looking around to see how do people react, how do customers react and what’s going on – so, almost everybody froze, including me. So, we’re all in this frozen state where we’re trying to figure out what to do and it’s normal to a certain level because we’re absorbing information, trying to figure out the best path for each of us. And then, of course, you have people’s risk-averseness coming into play, you have people’s mindset, also, influencing that. So, in order to be able to survive through uncertainty, first of all, you need to be able to put in a lot of effort – cognitive effort.

Ana Iorga: Uncertainty drives cognitive effort, and people are very unhappy with that – this is what also found from our work in doing consumer behavior assessments. Whenever people don’t understand information, they don’t understand the context or the setting, they’re very unhappy. So, that’s the first step: you need to accept that there’s going to be a lot of effort that you need to put into finding the way to go. Then, you have to be willing to adapt very fast. Meaning, what was right in the morning might not be right in the afternoon when you have new information showing you that it’s safe or not safe to go outside or whatever. Then, you have to have a flexible mindset. So, you might change your behavior, you might change your habits, and you have to accept that and be willing to do that. Because if you’re rigid, you might be in trouble. And this, of course, comes to how we’re wired – some of us are more flexible, some of us are more rigid, some of us are okay to navigate through uncertainty, some of us are not. So, for example, being an entrepreneur, navigating through uncertainty every day helps you with this current situation – that’s like a side joke. So, I guess this is how we learn how to get through an uncertain context or environment.

Andra Zaharia: These are very helpful. And I’ve also seen it on myself – the toll that this cognitive effort takes at some point if you don’t give yourself enough breathing room. And again, I’ve been reading about all these things, and I’ve been working with a coach for a long time, but I still found I constantly put in this effort, but it was kind of, let’s say, I didn’t realize the toll that it took on me until a few weeks ago when I started really feeling depleted and very, very tired emotionally and cognitively tired, that I just could not take in any more – and I curved the stimuli that I let into my life a long time ago, and I’m trying to keep them under control. So, I kind of regulate how much news I take in, I’ve deleted my Facebook account for almost three years now. So, I’ve done a lot of work in this but still was very, very difficult, even with training because I feel lucky and privileged to have had access to therapy and coaching and things that help you boost all these abilities and build them, gradually. But it still took quite a toll. And what I’ve seen is that, well, obviously, many people went in survival mode – whether they realize it or not – and decision-making is very difficult. So, making choices in survival mode is very difficult than when we’re in a calm state or in your regular average day-to-day context. What have you found that’s particularly different about how people make decisions when they’re in their survival mode or extreme situations that activate that in-saying that we have to either fight or flight? Well, for some of us, it may be freeze, because that’s the third option as well.

Ana Iorga: Yeah. So, we become very risk-averse when we are in this survival mode, and there is a threat out there and we do not know what the threat is, we don’t know how to react, we become very risk-averse. And our brains are trying to keep us safe, put in a place where at least they can control the environment. So this is one of our brain’s most important roles, to keep us safe and to control the environment. So, this is very funny. I’ll give you an example. My boy is 10, and before the pandemic, every weekend he wanted us to go somewhere – just to a playground or just to go somewhere so he gets out of the house. When the pandemic started, I explained to him that it is dangerous and he would not go to the supermarket, we would not take him anywhere. And he told me, I think last week, he said something like, “I have two voices in my head. One is telling me that I want to go out and have fun and meet my friends and go play. But the other one is telling me that it is dangerous and the risk outweighs the benefit. So, therefore, I listen to the other voice that tells me to stay inside, it is safer.” And I don’t remember his wording exactly, but he said, “I’m not bothering you with all my requests to go out and I’m being a quiet kid.” Something like that. And I looked at him and said, “Yeah, this is exactly what happens in our brains!” I mean, he verbalized it so well! And because of that, we refrained all our desires to do anything that was dangerous – or most of us refrained that because, of course, there are people that are not so risk-averse and they just take any risk. They don’t care. But I’m talking about the majority of the population, let’s say.

Ana Iorga: So we become risk-averse, and everything that is not directly related to the threat or the survival, our brain just ignores it: “This is noise. I’m not going to pay attention to that. I’m just going to process the information that is related to how to wash your hands, get sanitizer, don’t go out, how to order groceries, and stuff like that.” Another important thing is that the relationships that were important or strong, they become more important – and I’m talking about personal relationships and also a relationship with a brand. So, if you’re engaged with a brand, you’re going to get more engaged because that is a safe spot for you. The brain tells you this brand is safe, you can interact with it. So, you continue to do more business with that company, brand, whatever. Whereas, the weak connections are just going to vanish. They’re not important, your brain tells you “Well, you should not spend energy and time in that direction because there’s nothing there.” So you disengage with anything that’s not important. And this is a very important lesson for brands because, if we look around what happened in communication, a lot of brands decided not to say anything. They just hid. I understand that! They didn’t know what to do, there was a lot of risk involved. So, on the one hand, I understand, but on the other hand, if you look at the consumer, he needs that assurance from a brand. And if you don’t provide that, the consumer’s brain is going to say, “Well, this is not important for my survival. It doesn’t help me in this situation, so I’m going to ignore it. And then, when I go back to my habits, I’m not going to include you in my habit because you’re not there anymore.”

Andra Zaharia: That is very interesting! I really particularly like this point and I think it has a lot of weight into how we behave these days, and how we take in information because I think that that’s one of the biggest things that’s exploded in consumption. Information consumption has just skyrocketed, and we can see it in the fact that… Well, internet traffic has increased a lot and it has increased a lot for social media and news apps, and so on and so forth. So, there are all these elements when we’re in the survival mode, just to sum up, especially, our brains kind of function to filter out irrelevant information and weak ties, which I think is very important. And I see many people were triggered to reflect, intentionally or not, but a lot of people kind of went into reflection mode and kind of got clarity around what the important aspects or elements of their lives were and what matters and what doesn’t. There was this general filtration of everything that’s going on in our lives. Plus, this tendency to seek out familiarity. But doesn’t that also trigger our confirmation bias? Which I find is one of the most dangerous biases that we have, especially when we consume information. And for those who don’t know, I just wanted to mention that confirmation bias is the human tendency to seek out information and facts that corroborate and support the arguments and the story we already have built in our heads, that we’re already telling ourselves. How have you seen that maybe influence consumer’s behavior or behavior in general?

Ana Iorga: So, yeah, this is related to the echo chamber – we live in our own bubble. And I just saw the title of an article saying that the first link you get when you Google something, the first news would be one that supports your belief, and then the next link would be one that is weaker but still supports your belief and so on. So, yeah, this is very dangerous because this is how we become radical and this is how we are not open to analyzing new information and new data that comes in. But there are around 175 biases that are at play when we look at people’s behavior. So, we are not aware of them and even if we are aware of them, we might not change, and we are not able to change it – this is how our brain works.

Andra Zaharia: So what can we do about it? It takes a lot of effort. I’ve seen it in myself and in others who’ve been reading about psychology and sociology and every other branch that ties into our behavior. And if you work with a coach, you learn to spot these things and you learn to see how your cognitive distortions modify your behavior and your decisions, so you can you course-correct and figure out a more rational way to behave and to perceive. But how can we live with them in a way that doesn’t affect our lives too much? Because, certainly, we can’t erase them and we definitely can’t learn to have a perfect critical-thinking machine. We’re not able to do that. We’re only human at the end of the day. But how can we live with them?

Ana Iorga: Well, biases are not bad. They’re not inherently bad. I mean, some of them are and some of them aren’t. They’re shortcuts. They’re a way that our brain manages to go through life and still get a good outcome of the decisions that we take. So, if we’re in settings where we don’t understand the information, we don’t really know how to navigate, then relying on biases is going to help us because at least we have a path. On the other hand, biases are bad because we do not put in the effort to analyze the information and we jump to conclusions. And then, depending on the bias – let’s say, if we talk about the ‘women in science’ bias, and we look at someone and we say, “Well, how can she be a scientist? Look at her!” That’s bad because that blocks our willingness to analyze the information and to make a decision based on what we see. I remember, once I was flying with KLM, and when the plane takes off, it’s the captain talking. And there was this lady woman voice saying, “Hi, I’m your captain.” And my first reaction was like, “Oh, my God! She’s a woman! Why?” So I got a bit anxious. Then, I analyzed it immediately. So I was like, “Why am I thinking that? I mean, for sure, she knows how to fly a plane. So that’s not an issue.” I got upset with myself – why did I become anxious? There’s no reason for me to become anxious. But the first reaction was that, like, “Oh, she’s not a guy. Okay.”

Andra Zaharia: They’re very deeply ingrained, aren’t they? Even if we don’t want them, even if we’re educated people who have read a lot, we can still see these knee-jerk reactions that we have. And I think what helps us is to have that afterthought, that kind of process that kicks in and says, “Hey! This is something you should challenge. This is something you should look beyond. Don’t stick with this path.”

Ana Iorga: Exactly! So, it’s very important for us to analyze that. We might not be able to change it. So, the next time, I might react the same, but at least I’m aware, so my brain is going to recall the memory, saying, “Hey, relax! It’s okay. You’ve been through that, so don’t worry.” Or, “Accept it because it’s okay.” And I think that the second action that we need to take and that’s very important is to educate our kids and to educate the people around us to see those biases, and to be aware of them as much as they can. And here, I also have another personal story. I have a boy and a girl. My boy is 10 and when he was younger, I would buy all kinds of tools and toys for him where he would have to build and use his imagination. And then, when my girl was growing, I was trying to buy the same toys for her but what do you find when you go to the store? You find kitchens, you find dolls, makeup. And I was very, very upset. I was in a rage at some point. I was like, why? Of course, there is this bias where women grow and they cook and guys fix things around because this is how they play! And I remember an interesting study where they had these toddlers – they were actually babies; I think six-seven months old. And they dressed them as boys and girls, and they got volunteers to play with them. If the baby was dressed as a girl, the volunteer would play with girl toys; if the baby was dressed as a boy, they would play with boy boys. Actually, they mixed them. So that’s bias and volunteers did not do it on purpose. They just thought that would be the most appropriate toy to play with.

Andra Zaharia: Exactly! There’s a lot that we still need to change. I sometimes feel – and I know how this may sound, let’s say, slightly as a critique to human evolution – we live in such a complex world, but I feel that sometimes our brains or our patterns or behavior has not evolved enough compared to where we want it to be or where we expect it to be or what we expect of ourselves. And this is something that’s very visible throughout all areas of society, but especially how children behave today, and how their brains absorb and process information versus what people are used to, in terms of nurturing them and helping them grow up. And there’s such a big difference. They’re so incredibly smart. They don’t see gender gaps because these are all learned behaviors. And I know it takes a long time for mentalities to change. When I was studying PR and communication, we studied anthropology and everything else and it stuck with me that mentality is changed once every 50 years, if so. And I feel that it has remained the same, in spite of this advanced and general acceleration of everything. What other things are not changing about human behavior and how we make decisions? Because I feel like there’s a lot of talk about change but, at the same time, the decisions that people make for us, let’s say, on a bigger level, are still driven by the same things and that’s why we see patterns in past events that are similar to what we’re going through now. And obviously, this cycle of history is repeating itself endlessly. So, what are those things that don’t change about human behavior that are big influences on our choices?

Ana Iorga: I think the way our brains work does not change. And that’s a good thing because if it changed, you might have mutations and then you don’t know what would come out of those mutations. So, pretty much the role habits play in our decision-making, the role of emotions, or the impact of emotions that plays in our decision making – I think those are two aspects that do not change. Of course, what changes is how we interpret them. Our reactions and our decisions are pretty much context and culture-driven and how we explain those, and how we motivate them, changes from culture to culture. But if we look at the primary reactions or the brain processes, they’re the same. If you think of a mother’s reaction to protect her kids, they’re the same across cultures, but the way she does this and her actions and her behavior might be different from culture to culture. So, this also translates, probably, at a higher level, but not if we talk about politics or administration. I think the decision is different because there are other elements that come into play that are just distorting the way people decide. So, it might not be in the best interest of some groups, it might be in the best interest of other groups. So, that’s a different discussion.

Andra Zaharia: That is true! And I feel maybe that’s why we feel so strongly challenged by some of these things that don’t align with our reality. And around what you said that our brain hasn’t changed, I remember an example – and I haven’t thought about this in over 10 years. When we were at the university, we had this fantastic teacher that taught us communication, and we studied all sorts of things. And one of the things I remember, one of the studies that he quoted is that they found a tribe in the Amazon a bunch of years ago and they showed different emotions, but just people’s eyes and they could recognize each of those emotions and name them just as everyone else on the globe would – and that’s a very universal pattern. And I find that very endearing, I guess, because we’re all able to recognize emotion in each other and we all have these shared patterns, but sometimes, the way we interpret things culturally makes us drift apart. And we see that a lot in social media, we see that a lot in the comment section of [insert any website here].

Ana Iorga: That’s a very interesting point you brought up. And probably your professor was referring to Paul Ekman – he’s the father of facial recognition, the facial coding, let’s say, with the seven emotions. But recently, I read another book that’s called “How Our Emotions Form the Brain” or something that, that challenged everything that I thought and I knew about emotions. A very interesting book, very technical, so it’s not at a layman level – it goes very deep into brain processes. But the argumentation is the following: It’s not mainly the emotions that are global and easily recognizable; it’s the expression that people have on their faces, and based on the concepts that those tribes or the cultures have, based on the concept, people are able to recognize the emotion. And the example that she gives, they also went to tribes. The book is written by a professor, I forgot her name, but I can send you the link. She has Ph.D. students, and they also went to some tribes and did research. And when they showed people the faces, they didn’t tell them any concept, they didn’t tell them this is happiness, this is sadness, this is fear. And the reaction would be people are laughing. They look at someone laughing and say, “People are laughing.” They didn’t say ‘happiness’. They said ‘laugh’ because they didn’t know the concept of happiness. They didn’t have it in their vocabulary, and they didn’t know how to verbalize it. And the point she’s making is that we are teaching our kids concepts since they are young, since they’re babies. So, when a mother talks to the child and she tells the baby, “I am upset because you did that” or “Why are you crying? Are you upset?” The kid hears ‘upset’, you know, being upset and correlates it with crying. Or, “Are you angry? Don’t throw the toy on the floor, I’m getting angry.” So, because we are able to talk and to use a common language that the other person understands, we transfer the concepts, and then they know to recognize the emotion based on the concept that they learned. So she’s saying that it’s not the emotions that are global and we’re able to recognize the emotion. We’re able to recognize the concept that we learned. And if we don’t have the concept, our brain doesn’t know what to do with that.

Andra Zaharia: I find that super interesting, especially because one thing that I’ve found since doing this podcast and since devoting a lot more attention to decision-making, both in my personal life and noticing what goes on around me, is that sometimes, one of the reasons we have to put in a lot more effort to figure out these complex things in our lives is that we lack the vocabulary to do so. We don’t know how to name these things. And when our brain doesn’t have that concept to rely on, it’s very difficult for us to actually figure out what that looks like. I mean, I’m absolutely thrilled at behavioral psychology and every other branch that touches on human behavior, have surfaced a bit into mainstream media because we’re finally learning how to talk about what we feel and what we think and we’re finally giving ourselves this opportunity. But, at the same time, I know you did a lot of research on consumer behavior and how people act when they’re shopping and when they choose what to consume and what to buy. But I wanted to ask you what the difference is – speaking of vocabulary – what the difference is between what they do and what they say because that distance usually reveals all our biases and things that are going on with our subconscious actions or reactions that we have. Could you share a few examples of that?

Ana Iorga: So, since we started doing consumer neuroscience, we saw that there is a gap between what people say and what they think. And that gap comes from, either people are not aware, either they don’t want to say. If you’re researching a topic that’s sensitive people might not want to tell you. Or people, oftentimes, they resort to the first answer that comes to their mind just to move on. So, if we have a focus group or you ask people, “Why would you buy this product? Why do you like it?” They just give you the first answer that comes to their mind, because why would they put in more effort to introspect themselves and to see why do they really like the product or not.

Ana Iorga: So, I remember a project that we did, where we looked at employee engagement, and we measured engagement on focus and energy – so, two dimensions of people’s involvement. And we had declarative surveys, so we asked people some questions to see how focused they were and how engaged they were with their work. And then, we also did an implicit association test where we measured people’s subconscious reactions to those dimensions – focus and energy. The declarative survey showed us that around 80% of the employees were very focused and very energetic. So, they were very engaged. And this was consistent with the other studies that the company had. So they had a stellar performant team. When we looked at the Implicit Association results, only 20% were in that quadrant of being highly focused and energetic, and they knew exactly what they had to do. And the others were scattered around. They were either less focused and they had a lot of energy, but they were all over the place, or they were focused but they didn’t have the energy to complete their tasks maybe because they were burnt out or maybe because they were disengaged with their team or whatever. And then, of course, there were a lot of people that were lacking both focus and energy because they’re not in the right place, they’re not happy with their work and stuff like that. So, when we showed the management team the results, that was eye-opening for them, because they told us, “We already knew that there were issues that we needed to fix. We knew that a team was not performing as they should. But all the studies that we had showed us that 80% were good. So, we couldn’t go in and change anything because the team leader would say, but I have great people. Why would I want to change anything?”

Ana Iorga: So yeah, there is a gap between what people say and what they do, and it’s not that people are misleading you. They might not know. So, we all consider ourselves to be very good people, to be responsible, to be unbiased. Of course, we are rational and we analyze everything and biases don’t work for us. But it’s not like that. When I started reading about neuromarketing and I read about the decisions that are not rational and conscious, I didn’t agree with that. I said, “No, that’s not possible! I’m a very rational person, I analyze everything. I don’t let emotions get me.” And then, I started reading more and I went like, “Okay, maybe I was not right and my perception was wrong.” And yeah, I completely changed my view on how people decide and how they react.

Andra Zaharia: That’s super interesting! And that was actually one of the things that I wanted to explore, simply because I’m sure that working with all these concepts and constantly adding new layers of complexity and understanding to all these issues, changed the way you behave in your personal life, not just in your professional life. What have been some of these changes that you saw in your own behavior, over time?

Ana Iorga: I’m trying to minimize the impact of biases.

Andra Zaharia: Aren’t we all?

Ana Iorga: Yeah! Actually, I’m having fun observing myself.

Andra Zaharia: I love that! I’ve never heard that. I tend to take myself very seriously, which is something I’m trying to work on, but I’ve never heard someone say they have fun with this. And I guess it should be fun to make it a source of pleasure for our brain and not constantly a source of effort.

Ana Iorga: I remember once I wanted to buy a new car. So, that was, I don’t know, seven or eight years ago. And I knew exactly what kind of car wanted – I wanted to be large enough to take half of the house with me when we go on vacation with the kids, I wanted it to be higher, like an SUV because, in my mind, that was related to safety and me being aware of the biases about women driving, so I just wanted to have a big car, just like that. Because, if I have a big car in the intersection, no one is going to mess with me. So, these were my perceptions. So, we went to different brands, different automakers, and I had a budget in mind, but I didn’t really like what I saw. So, my husband told me, “Let’s go to another brand. Let’s go to this brand.” And I said, “It’s out of our budget. I don’t want us to spend more than what we decided because it’s just a car. I don’t want to spend more than that.” And he said, “Well, I just scheduled you for a test drive so now you have to go.” So I said, “Okay, I’m going to go but I’m not going to buy that car. I assure you, I’m not going to spend that money.”

Ana Iorga: So, then, I got into the car and I kind of liked it. I liked the experience. I liked the way it was built. I liked the quality and everything. So, when I was driving, when I entered I said, “No way. I’m not going to buy it.” I was talking to myself, “Just make sure you’re not going to get this car.” And then, I started loving it. And I was like, “But I really like it. I mean, it’s different than the other ones.” So, then, my brain was like, “Okay, just to appease your rational brand, let’s find some benefits so that you can buy the car.” So then, probably the sales guy saw me that I liked the car, and so he told me, “Well, we’re having a new model coming in. So, if you buy this car, it’s the old model, I can give you this discount. I can give you the perks and the most powerful motor. And you also get a discount and you also get tires and you also get this and that.” So then, when I started writing everything, putting it on paper in an Excel file, it looked like a pretty good deal. And I convinced my rational brain that it is actually a pretty good deal if you look at all the other perks that you get on top of that. So, I ended up buying that car.

Andra Zaharia: So, I think that one of the things that you’ve mentioned previously as well, is that we should give ourselves a bit of freedom to change our minds and to make that okay. Because for a long time and what we saw in society, as well, was this idea of obviously staying true to yourself, to your principles and every other decision and choice should be aligned with that particular story and structure that we have instilled in ourselves. It’s just that there are so many things around us that are changing. And what I find particularly interesting about neuroscience, neuropsychology, is that we have all these studies coming up and there’s been obviously a lot more budget and funding available to uncover these things than ever before, that we have all these things coming up that challenge what we thought we knew about how the brain works, how the human mind works, why our behavior is the way it is. And that happens in nutrition as well – things that we thought were good turn out to be bad, and some of the things that were touted as really, really bad turned out to be not that bad. And it’s difficult for us to absorb all these shifts or these changes and things that we thought were fundamental. How do you particularly deal with these changes or these new discoveries that really shake up some of the structural elements of our lives?

Ana Iorga: So as a scientist I thought it is very important to have an open mind and to be willing to accept that you were wrong. I think this is one of the most important factors that help you grow as a person, as a scientist also. Because, as you said, the research challenged a lot of our assumptions and if you have a fixed mindset – fixed meaning that you don’t want to change your beliefs – then you cannot grow. It is okay to accept that, based on our current understanding, this is how we think the brain works, this is what we think it’s good for us. But in 20 years, we might find out that we’re completely wrong because, at this moment, you just see a bit of a picture. Then, as science progresses and you learn more and you have a deeper understanding, the picture broadens, or it gets deeper, depending on how you look at it. So, it is normal that you might see things differently. It’s just okay. You have to accept that. You don’t beat yourself up because you believed something in good faith. And I also tend to take everything with a grain of salt, now. So, I don’t believe 100% everything I hear, especially if there are new discoveries. I’m a bit skeptical, maybe, and I just wait to see, “Okay, let’s wait for another two or three years and see if this discovery just proves to be right or wrong.” So, yeah, this is how I approach it.

Andra Zaharia: That is very helpful – relying on time-tested principles. I mean, I guess that’s why stoicism is making a comeback and other things that have been around for thousands of years, simply because they haven’t changed. That’s why I find it fascinating that human nature, well, let’s say the core components, they’re kind of still the same. Our initial brain, the one that formed around our sense of smell, and that directs all these subconscious reactions, is still the one that always triggers before our rational brain and we tend to forget that, simply because there’s this distance in time between that point and this point where we are now. One of my last questions is around – you mentioned that you take everything with a grain of salt. And definitely, it’s important for us to cultivate our ability to see nuance and to understand that most things are not black and white. They’re usually on a spectrum, and that dealing with the spectrum takes a lot of effort. But there’s also this tendency that I think everyone noticed, of challenging things – based on one agenda or another – challenging things and trying to bring them down. Like, we see a lot of conspiracy theories, and they’re widely circulated. We’ve seen many, many things. I mean, there are tons of examples out there, depending on when you listen to this, pick your example. How do we make sure that we stay in this letting in and accepting that there are multiple possibilities and multiple interpretations? How do we make sure that we keep this on a constructive and positive note and not let it slip into conspiracy theories and behaviors that tend to lead to radical opinions that hurt people or groups or societies, at large?

Ana Iorga: Yeah. This is a very interesting and very good question. I developed for myself a sense of, whenever I see a new movement – call it whatever you want to call it, all the hashtags – whenever I see it evolving, I become very critical of it. It doesn’t matter whether it’s aligned with my principles and values or it is not aligned. I start to dissect it and to see who benefits from that? What are the forces at play? How is manipulation working with people? And how is it influencing? Because what I’ve seen in the last years with, as I said, society, political, different kinds of movements, most of them had an agenda. Most of them might have been good movements, in the beginning, they were fueled by good intentions, but then they got derailed by some agenda or the other. So, I think the keyword here is balance. Of course, you have your own values and principles and beliefs, and you need to stick to them because they represent you and they are a choice. You choose to believe in something and to act in a certain way. But you have to be skeptical and to just keep a distance and analyze who’s benefiting from that, who’s reading the agenda, who’s behind. Do a bit of research and see who’s paying for that, promoting the post if we talk about social media – if you have time, and you have the interest to do research. Otherwise, if I don’t really have time for that I’m just keeping a bit of a distance and see how does this unravel. And then, I decide whether I want to take part in it or not.

Andra Zaharia: That is very helpful! And I think those questions – and I will make sure to write them in the show notes – I think these questions are very, very helpful. And I believe in the power of questions to helping us extract things from reality that we wouldn’t normally, because we don’t have these questions at the top of our minds, they’re not a reflex, they’re not a habit. And just having them and just sometimes seeing them but working with them in writing would be the best way to help our brain assimilate.

Ana Iorga: Yeah! And all those movements, they play on our biases. We might favor one faction or the other, or one stance or the other. And if we look at them, they play on a lot of biases in society, which, again, it’s tricky because whoever is driving the agenda knows that people, as a mass, are going to react in different ways and they’re just playing on those reactions and feeling. So, I think there’s a lot of manipulation.

Andra Zaharia: There is! And speaking of things that strengthen our critical thinking and our ability to see, recognize, and work with these things and kind of manage them and manage our own lives, what are some key resources that you’d recommend listeners, just to start maybe building or expanding their vocabulary and adding new concepts to their toolbox, so they can make it easier for themselves to make sound decisions and have a sound rationale?

Ana Iorga: So, one of the authors that shaped me as I grew professionally, is Dan Ariely – he is my favorite behavioral economist and he opened my eyes to how irrational we can be; so, I recommend all of his books. I started with “Predictably Irrational” as probably everybody or most people have heard of it. And then, I moved into reading all his books. So, I think understanding his approach to testing different settings and people’s reactions, understanding and internalizing that approach, it is very helpful for us, as professionals and also as human beings. Then, I would recommend the work of Thaler and Sunstein on Nudges and behaviors, and how to influence, how to help people build a better life if you want. Of course, we have to be careful that these nudges can be used in a negative way or in the wrong direction, but that is the regulator’s responsibility to make sure that all the nudges and processes are benefiting people, the population.

Andra Zaharia: Sorry to interrupt, but I do have a quick example here. I remember a couple of months ago, a friend of mine showed me a website, where you could actually, let’s say, start a campaign to specifically target a person with a particular kind of message. So, for example, if you’d want your spouse to stop smoking, you could pay for a custom campaign that would bombard them with ads wherever they’d go with that particular message. And of course, it can be used in a negative way as well. And that felt so weird, unethical, very, very intrusive, and just so wrong. And we were both talking about it. I mean, we both work in marketing, and you have all this experience. I know that behavior can be manipulated in many ways, and we’re all influenced by many, many things. But this is so, so wrong. And just examples like these are just the tip of the iceberg, just a tiny, tiny bit of everything that’s going on in our lives. So, understanding these nudges might help us recognize them, see them in reality, and just keep them from overwhelming us and take away our power to decide what is right for us.

Ana Iorga: Exactly! Once you become aware and we are informed, as consumers, as citizens, then it is a bit more difficult to manipulate us and to sway our decisions, based on different agendas. Of course, it is still possible because we are humans and there’s this familiarity effect. If you hear something over and over and over, you start to believe it, you kind of start to see, “Well, there might be some truth in it.” And it affects your decisions, it affects the way you look at an issue.

Andra Zaharia: That is very helpful! And thank you for sharing all these resources and stories and examples. It’s been such an insightful conversation and I think that whoever wants to pursue particular topics, they can have their pick at all of these rosters of examples and resources and start digging a lot deeper. If anyone wants to follow your work, what would be the best place to do that?

Ana Iorga: They can connect with me on LinkedIn or go on buyerbrain.com and see what we do. And they can write to me also. My email address is on the website.

Andra Zaharia: Perfect! Thank you so, so much. I will put everything that we mentioned and talked about in the show notes. And maybe, at some point, I would love to build on this conversation and take it further. You’ve been extremely generous! Thank you!

Ana Iorga: Thank you very much for your invitation, Andra, and thank you for the pleasant conversation. Have a lovely weekend!

I read a lot about decision-making and I strongly believe it’s worth making the effort to improve this ability. However, this doesn’t mean that making excellent decisions will solve the issues we come across in our lives.

Decisions are not solutions.

A wise, well-timed decision can solve a problem but not every problem can be resolved through decision-making.

Here’s how I see these two ideas working together:

Decisions are steps to solving a problem.

You can use your choices to track your progress, understand what triggers you, and cultivate objectivity.

“Understand that most problems are a good sign. Problems indicate that progress is being made, wheels are turning, you are moving toward your goals. Beware when you have no problems. Then you’ve really got a problem. Problems are like landmarks of progress.” Scott Alexander (1976 – ), British Millionaire and Socialite

When you make decisions, you naturally focus on breaking down your problem into elements you can better understand.

Asking better questions to make wise choices also helps you uncover potential solutions to your problem. This is how you gain clarity about when and how to act.

“If you do not ask the right questions, you do not get the right answers. A question asked in the right way often points to its own answer. Asking questions is the A-B-C of diagnosis. Only the inquiring mind solves problems.” Edward Hodnett (1871 – 1962), British Poet

Decisions help you get better at analyzing your problems.

Use decision trees to understand your problem’s context and implications. This model is incredibly useful, especially for complex projects.

“The possible solutions to a given problem emerge as the leaves of a tree, each node representing a point of deliberation and decision.” Niklaus Wirth (1934 – ), Programming language designer

Decisions push you to act with intent so you don’t tip-toe around difficult problems.

Stop avoiding problems and start fixing them. Indecision and inaction will not magically solve anything (although sometimes it helps to pause and reflect a bit).

“Solve it. Solve it quickly, solve it right or wrong. If you solve it wrong, it will come back and slap you in the face, and then you can solve it right. Lying dead in the water and doing nothing is a comfortable alternative because it is without risk, but it is an absolutely fatal way to manage a business.” Thomas J. Watson (1874 – 1956), Industrialist, Former President of IBM

Staged, deliberate decisions build confidence and save you time and unnecessary stress spent on going around problems.

“The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity. The fears are paper tigers. You can do anything you decide to do. You can act to change and control your life; and the procedure, the process is its own reward.” Amelia Earhart (1897 – missing 1937), American Aviation Pioneer and Author

Decisions help you cultivate foresight.

The more self-aware you become and the better you understand human psychology and your environment, the stronger you get at anticipating and preventing crises.

“The biggest problem in the world could have been solved when it was small.” Witter Bynner (1881 – 1968), American Poet and Author

What I find rewarding about these ideas is that they’ve helped me amplify my mental capacity, improve my relationships, and create opportunities to talk to wonderful people I look up to.

To sum up, building awareness around how you make decisions helps you:

• break down complex issues into more manageable elements
• get better at analyzing problems and challenges
• uncover potential solutions by looking at the issue from different angles
• gain clarity about when and how to act
• take action and stop tip-toeing around unavoidable choices
• build confidence around your abilities and thinking

One thing that always stands out in my conversations with high-performers, the books I read, and the people I engage with who make me want to bring my A-game: they do all important things with clear intent.

Since I’m always on the lookout for strategies that can improve our decision-making process, I wanted to pause and zoom in on intent for today’s newsletter.

Without generalizing, I can safely say that people often react to the things that happen around them rather than act on their own will.

A big chunk of human behavior is governed by adjustment, a process that helps us balance conflicting needs and overcome challenges in our environment.

Besides that, we also constantly adapt to social situations and are bombarded with attempts to influence our behavior in way or another.

For example, my mom would like me to get married (2-3 years ago), my boyfriend would like to see me much more relaxed than I generally am (I feel ya, babe!), and some of my friends would like to hang out more (so do I, guys).

When you pause, step back and look at all these factors, you may notice or feel that they’re little room left for what you want. I know I experience this feeling more frequently than I’d like to. And if you’re a people pleaser like me or Cristina, the challenge is even bigger.

It’s not that our willpower is that weak. It’s just that we lack the exercise. Plus, we often “spend” our willpower on others, which leaves us quite depleted.

“We are rational and responsible in terms of our intentions and commitments made to others, but not to ourselves. The same lack of action often happens with other intentions to self, including: saving for retirement, flossing our teeth, watching less TV, eating less salt, watching our caloric intake . . . You know this list.” Timothy A Pychyl Ph.D.

Cultivating intent

I, for one, believe that spending time and energy on cultivating intent is essential for our mental health, productivity, and general wellbeing. It’s also fundamental for strengthening our identity.

This is not new of course. The Stoics talked about this millennia ago.

It’s about time we made more of this opportunity to grow into ourselves, isn’t it?

To reap the benefits of thinking and acting with a purpose in mind requires that we let go of using external factors as an excuse for our behavior and taking more responsibility for our reactions.

Simply put, calling bullshit on ourselves is probably one of healthiest mental habits we can acquire.

What intent helps you achieve

When you analyze your behavior with intent or set out to accomplish a specific, measurable goal, a couple of great things happen:

• You become more adept at planning which means you’ll move faster, get better results, and use your resources more effectively (think of wasting less time on tasks you can automate, for example).
• You enhance your mental preparedness so you become better equipped to deal with surprises, changes, and unforeseen events.
• You achieve focus because you can use your intent to guide your decisions.
• Naturally, you also get more clarity about what you need and what you need to let go of to achieve your goal.
• You get better at tracking your progress and adjusting your actions as you go. Creating this personal feedback loop is a crucial instrument in your development. I included an example that speaks to this below.

When you commit to your learning process this way, your self-awareness increases exponentially and so does your self-confidence.

The better you understand your own reactions and emotions, the more effectively you can manage them. For example, if you spend time pinning down the true sources of your anxiety, you can plan to avoid them or reframe them to maintain your balance.

Cultivating intent implies building a discipline you can rely on. No matter what happens, you will have a strong process that helps you learn and improve constantly, thus making you more adept at dealing with complexity, uncertainty, and all of the other difficult situations that inherently come up when you seek to operate at peak performance.

There is release and freedom in knowing yourself

A strong personal identity makes you less afraid of what other people think.

Tracking your progress (with intent) motivates you to keep going.

Determination and focus are easier to support over a longer period of time when you have a clear end goal in mind.

Decisions become an opportunity to learn and explore instead of a burden.

Resisting influence and having your mission hijacked by other people’s needs becomes less difficult too.

5 strategies to learn and decide with intent

Now that we’ve talked the talk, it’s time to practice what we preach.

Here are 5 frameworks you can try to cultivate intent and improve your decision-making skills in the process:

1. Debrief like a pilot
2. Define your personal philosophy
3. Differentiate between your learning zone and your performance zone
4. Focus on building your process
5. Teach others

To wrap things up, I chose an idea included in one of the resources above:

“Good decisions are valuable but they are more valuable if they are part of a good decision process because a good process allows for feedback about where you can improve.” – Shane Parrish

I intend to have a peaceful Sunday spent with as little time as possible glued to any sort of screen.

What do you intend to do for yourself today?

I’m a BIG planner.

I like carefully laid-out plans, checklists, and building scenarios to cover as many possible situations as I can.

That means I don’t leave much room for myself for unforeseen stuff. When new things pop up, I just push myself harder to get them done.

This usually makes the process more difficult and adds strain to an already stretched mind. Sometimes it even leads to a personal crisis – the burnout kind or at least some spiralling.

That’s one of the great things about reading, thinking and talking to people making better decisions: I can actually experiment with what I learn and improve my reactions and my relationship with myself and others.

The topic of crises has been a particular focus for me ever since my grandma became bedridden in November 2018, passing away a few months later. Observing what happened then and since then reinforced the importance of preventing crises for me.

You see, I’ve had quite an eventful life so far, with plenty of both powerful positive and negative experiences. Their impact also depends on how I perceive and process these experiences.

In part, this is why I continue to study this topic. Making it a priority helps me understand:

• how crises happen in my life
• why they happen
• and how I can get better at preventing them.

Living through a crisis is a difficult process for almost everyone. It’s especially difficult if your loved ones are in it with you. I, for one, have a strong urge to do something – anything – to restore balance and reconcile the situation (even when it’s not my responsibility, which is something I address in coaching too).

These are a few things that have helped me in recent years to become more resilient and also kinder to myself and the people around me. I hope they can help you as well in your difficult moments.

Slow down

A crisis almost always pushes us to move faster to find a solution, to fix things. When we’re pressed by time or other factors, we tend to override our usual process.

When possible, I stop and slow down. This helps me unpack tense situations (What’s really happening here?), unearth the causes (Why are people acting this way? Why else?), and figure out what might help ease the pressure (How can I reframe this in a way that promotes cooperation?).

For example, I’ve often seen how emotional thinking leads to messy outcomes, confusion, and defensive behaviors. Identifying this bias the emotions that underlie it helps me empathize deeper and find a better way to communicate with the person who can only see their version of the world.

Learn to anticipate

In the last 2-3 years, when I looked at the elements of a crisis in my life, I started to notice patterns. Slowly, I figured repetitive behaviors and reactions. I noticed how certain people adjust their behavior in specific situations and I got better at planning around the things I can’t change.

Throughout it all, I gained a better understanding of what triggers people. I learned what matters to them.

Most people, including myself, need to be seen. They need to feel their actions are acknowledged. Some need more recognition than others for their good deeds.

The more people depend on external validation to boost their self-esteem, the more delicate the situation becomes when a crisis hits.

Telling them it’s wrong to care about what other people think won’t change a thing. At least in my case it didn’t.

Noticing when someone acts independently and has positive results and congratulating them for it is what makes a bigger difference. Everyone loves to feel in control and be self-reliant.

Goethe taught, “Treat a man as he is and he will remain as he is. Treat a man as he can and should be and he will become as he can and should be.” Viktor Frankl – Man’s search for meaning

When you become aware of these aspects, you can start to anticipate where the next conflict might come from. This gives you time to work and ease the pressure that would otherwise build up.

Accept responsibility

One of the big turning points for me that happened a good couple of years back was to acknowledge my own role in the burnouts I kept experiencing (one every 2-3 years).

Once I focused on what I could leverage in thinking and actions to avoid going down the same path, things started to improve. I’ve not mastered this entirely yet but I’ve made great progress.

When you learn to accept responsibility for your role in a conflict, you become less biased and more inclined to find win-win solutions.

You also improve at letting rumours and misinformation influence your actions and reactions. A bit of objectivity is always helpful when settling disputes.

Listen with curiosity

There’s something almost magical about taking evaluation and judgment out of the process of listening to other people.

I’ve seen this work very well. When I was going through challenging moments, my close friends asked me thoughtful questions to uncover what’s going on so they can help. This is much more helpful than just saying “it’s going to be okay”.

What’s more, I used this tactic myself to help them figure their way out of messy situations.

When you listen to explore potential scenarios, you help others cultivate and use empathy to ease tense situations. Bit by bit, you create a more constructive context for discussing issues from a less defensive position.

Listening with curiosity and empathy can open up communication so, for example, you and your partner can discuss things that aren’t working well and solve them before they become deal-breakers.

Identify risks

As I venture deeper into the many aspects of thoughtful and healthy decision-making, I’m more inclined to believe in the importance of mitigating personal risks.

I don’t mean risks like losing money. What I think about are things like the risk of losing someone you love deeply or the risk of damaging the relationship to the point of no return.

When I put things in perspective like that, I realize that some of my issues are petty or simply just in my head.

When you know what the risks are, you can address them one by one, and avoid major conflicts and clashes.

We certainly do not have full control of outcomes in life but we can manage is our mindset and behavior.

“There is beauty and clarity in this truth. When we’re freed from the mythology that we control outcomes and asked instead to concentrate on behaviors, we have a powerful tool to fight against negativity and anxiety.” Rand Fishkin – Lost and Founder

There’s no perfect map to help us avoid all potential crises. We’re certainly going to face them during our lives, both at work and at home.

Increased self-awareness puts us in a much better place to weather these crises and come out on the other side wiser and kinder, not cynical and embittered.

So when the next conflict arises and challenges you in unexpected ways, you can make one (or all) of these decisions to navigate it with more empathy and patience:

I slow down before making a decision.
I pay attention to patterns.
I accept responsibility for the part I play in situations and relationships.
I listen with curiosity.
I try my best to see the risks and find a way to reduce their impact.

I haven’t often mentioned this in the newsletter but I’m fascinated with cybersecurity.

For over 5 years, I’ve been working in marketing for companies who build information security and privacy products and I plunged into it.

One of the reasons I’m so hungry to learn more about cybersecurity is that psychology lies right at the heart of it. This has to do with how I came up with the idea for today’s newsletter.

In the past few weeks, I’ve been listening to Hacking Humans, one of the best podcasts in the industry.

In each episode, the hosts examine attacks aimed at manipulating people into giving cybercriminals data, money or access to information.

These attacks fall into the social engineering category. If you’re curious what it’s all about, this is a highly instructional read.

Social Engineering is the term for using human deception as means for information theft.

Social Engineering Framework: Understanding the Deception Approach to Human Element of Security

So as I listened to their conversations, I started thinking about triggers and how they influence our decision-making process.

Before I jump into the list I’ve made, let’s make sure we agree on what a trigger is:

A trigger is a stimulus in our environment that activates a mechanism or sets in motion a course of events.

I believe it’s important to pay attention to what stimulates us to make decisions because these triggers influence what’s top of mind. Attentional bias can play be a strong influence on our choices if we can’t identify and curb it.

What’s more, my experience in cybersecurity shows me that triggers can also impact more consequential choices.

Here are a few practical examples.

Curiosity

Have you ever thought about how falling in love and curiosity are connected?

When we’re in a new relationship, curiosity becomes a strong trigger. Love (or its pretense) makes us eager to experience new things with our partner, to build shared experiences.

When we’re curious, some of us take on more risks and make choices quicker than usual.

This leads me to an important reminder: decisions are not good or bad per se. They’re defined by the outcome.

For example, if curiosity triggers us to make a decision, it may turn out well, getting us out of our comfort zone and trying new experiences.

Contrarily, it can get us in trouble, as our eagerness to satisfy our curiosity pushes us into dangerous situations. This is how baiting works in online scams.

“Baiting is like the real-world Trojan horse that uses physical media and relies on the curiosity or greed of the victim. In this attack, attackers leave malware-infected floppy disks, CD-ROMs, or USB flash drives in locations people will find them (bathrooms, elevators, sidewalks, parking lots, etc.), give them legitimate and curiosity-piquing labels, and waits for victims to act.

For example, an attacker may create a disk featuring a corporate logo, available from the target’s website, and label it “Executive Salary Summary Q2 2012”. The attacker then leaves the disk on the floor of an elevator or somewhere in the lobby of the target company. An unknowing employee may find it and insert the disk into a computer to satisfy their curiosity, or a good Samaritan may find it and return it to the company. In any case, just inserting the disk into a computer installs malware, giving attackers access to the victim’s PC and, perhaps, the target company’s internal computer network.” Source.

Novelty

A new job, a new country, a new family member – the novelty factor exerts a big influence on our choices as well.

As we’re making an effort to adapt to a new situation, be it good or bad, our brain may forgo a step or two in our usual decision-making process so we can get to a state of comfort quicker.

I’m no behavioral scientist, but I believe that’s why sometimes people act illogically when they face unfamiliar conditions.

Scarcity

This one hits close to home for almost everyone.

When we get sick or someone close to us falls ill, we’re confronted with our own mortality. The abrupt realization that our lives are finite triggers some people to fundamentally change their perspective and habits.

That’s why we see people decide to completely change the way they eat or how much they exercise after finding out they’re sick.

Now if you these triggers sound familiar it’s because they’re frequently used in sales.

When exploited for malicious intent, the stimuli I just mentioned and the ones I’m about to list turn into harmful deception tactics.

In cybersecurity, psychological manipulation plays a huge role in cyber attacks. Social engineering tactics often fixate on shortcircuiting your usual decision-making process so the victim can act in the attacker’s interest.

FUD

One of the most used triggers in information security, for both good and mischievous objectives, is Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

Even though negative reinforcement has been proven to be less effective than positive reinforcement, educational articles in information security still frequently use FUD to determine people to act and improve their security habits.

Because the human mind doesn’t cope well with either of these states, it’s natural for us to try to move away from fear, reduce uncertainty, and eliminate doubt. That involves making a decision to get us out of this mental state.

Online or offline, malicious actors employ FUD to make their victims feel hopeless so that they make the decision they’re pushed towards.

If it seems like it can’t possibly happen to people who use logic, here’s an example that shows it can and how it works.

The kidnapping scam is a powerful example of FUD at work.

“Here’s how the scam, for that is what it is, works. You get a phone call from an unknown number informing you that a family member or loved one is being held hostage, and demanding a ransom be paid within a tight time limit or they will be physically harmed. More often than not you can hear someone in the background screaming for help.

Now you might think that this wouldn’t fool you, even for a moment. But what if that caller knew the name of the person they claim to have taken, inform you where they kidnapped them from (and that is outside their place of work, school or part of their usual routine) and maybe even throw in a description of what they are wearing? The last one might be gambling on you not remembering exactly what clothes they wore today, but if they have a recent photo or know the school uniform of a child then it’s this kind of details that can make all the difference.

As Michael Levin says “the criminals in this scam usually have done their homework including researching the victims’ social media sites and even hacking into the victim’s phone or computer.” Source.

Case in point:

“A few Sunday’s ago, I received the most frightening phone call I have ever gotten as a parent. I answered to a young person’s voice screaming for mom to help. Then an angry man claiming to be from a Mexican mafia told me my child was in the wrong place at the wrong time, saw something he shouldn’t have and if I didn’t bring all the money from my bank account to a designated meeting place they would slash his neck. This man knew my name, my phone number, the city I lived in and my child’s name.

I was not aware of virtual kidnapping scams and as the man continued to raise his voice with escalating threats, I paced my house trying to get a handle on exactly what was happening. I continued to press him to get answers or talk to the child. After about 20 minutes, the caller abruptly hung up. I immediately called both of my children. One answered the phone, the other did not. I panicked again and called the police department. The operator calmly informed me that I had been scammed. I was. My other child called me back a few minutes later.” Source.

Confusion

Triggers work in unexpected ways and their influence is often so subtle we don’t even notice it.

Using distraction and false pretenses are two tactics often used by scammers and thieves to trick their victims both online and offline.

Here are two examples ethical hackers use when doing penetration testing which means simulating attacks against companies to uncover their weaknesses and help them strengthen their defenses.

Tailgating: “hitching” along with an employee through a secured entry gate to get physical access to a secured location (such as a server room).

Pretexting: obtaining information under false pretenses (the pretext). For example, calling an employee and pretending you are a colleague. Source.

True story.

“So sometimes I kind of just sort of would see what the situation looked like. If people were busy doing something else, then I’ll kind of ask them questions to see – you know, if they don’t want to be bothered, then they’ll just let you in. Sometimes, I’ll pick up keys and say, I’m here returning something. They’ll let you in the building.” Source.

These work very often because many people are not trained to recognize the potential malicious intent in these behaviors.

Appeal to ego

Another strong trigger that can yield both positive and negative results is appealing to someone’s ego.

When we feel special (smart, needed, etc.), we’re more inclined to act against our better judgement which is what we usually do.

This can work in two ways:

“[…] the “victim” is manipulated so that they ask the social engineer for help. The social engineer creates a problem for the “victim” and then makes himself known as an “expert” who can solve the problem. The social engineer then waits for the “victim” to make a request. Trust is more likely because the “victim” takes the initiative.” Source.

“And sometimes, I’ll – some other tactics I would use – grief. You sort of play on people’s – their kindness. You know, there is a lot of that still out there. But, yeah, I’ll come in and like, hey, you know, I just lost someone in the family; I’m just trying to get some work done – or what have you. And then, you know, they really don’t want to bother you. They want to let you mourn – so a lot of different tactics I would go with back-and-forth, just depending on the situation.” Hacking Humans – Playing on kindness

I’ve written about ego a couple of times since I started this newsletter (here’s the most recent one), as this is one of the most important topics related to decision-making. Acknowledging how powerful this trigger can be prompt a big boost in self-awareness. I’ve seen it both in myself and the people around me.

This leads me to my next point.

Emotional thinking

Lack of self-awareness means others can trigger your emotional thinking more easily and determine you to bypass the logical steps you apply to make decisions.

Malicious actors often research their victims thoroughly, making personal connections (you both like the same Netflix show) and appealing to a relationship (help a colleague in need) to reach their objective.

Here’s how it works:

“[…] for example, ask someone to print a file from a USB memory stick that is infected with malware that infects the PC of the victim as soon as the file on the stick is accessed, or borrow an access badge because “you left yours on your desk”. A request made by a man (the tester) to a woman (the victim) and vice versa is usually fulfilled easier than when the gender is the same.” Source.

Scams like these go well beyond penetration testing and cyber attacks:

“A 17-year-old male from Oklahoma was fired from his job at Walmart for stealing money. Rather than considering himself lucky that he got away without being charged, he put his uniform back on and stole $30,000 from three other Walmarts by pretending to be a general manager from another store.

As he was in uniform and was wearing the company’s name tag, no one doubted him. He claimed he was carrying out an inventory of the stores before an inspection after the holidays, but surveillance cameras caught footage of his real purpose: according to a police report, when the boy was alone in the cash room, he took several bundles of banknotes and stuffed them into his pockets.” Source.

I’m not telling you this to become paranoid (although it doesn’t hurt to be a tad suspicious). I just wanted to emphasize how strongly these triggers can affect our decision-making.

If we teach ourselves to question our behaviors and reactions, we benefit in more ways than one.

First, we get to know ourselves better which leads to getting more comfortable with our own identity and traits.

Second, we become more impervious to triggers used with malicious intent and more inclined to make rational calculated decisions.

Looking back at the first newsletter I sent in 2019, I realize I could use the reminder. And maybe you can too.

It was about a great book title – one that stops you in your track to ponder. This kind of books are really difficult to come by if you think about it. So when I saw this one, I wanted to share what it inspired me to consider.

I found What Got You Here Won’t Get You There on James Clear’s list of best books on decision making and I added it right at the top of my reading list.

This book’s title alone nudged me to think about what it implies, so I can only hope that the rest of it is just as good.

Looking back at the last 5 years of my life, I couldn’t agree more with it. What got to become a freelancer is vastly different from what it took to get my last job. What got me to the point of building a strong, loving relationship with my better half is not at all similar to my previous romantic experience.

My motivations were different because my self-awareness was much weaker. Behaviors and contexts were wildly dissimilar.

Having this realization about the past changed how I look at the future.

Clearly, achieving my future goals will take a distinct set of skills, processes, and resources to pull off.

Here’s where I found a quote from the book I named this newsletter after that makes me want to read it. It touches on exactly this connection between our past and our future and how we should try to refrain from projecting one into the other.

“Understanding the past is perfectly admissible if your issue is accepting the past. But if your issue is changing the future, understanding will not take you there.”

Our minds are sometimes treacherous friends, building continuity bridges where there aren’t any shores to support them.

We do so because we instinctively fear change (some more than others). That’s why we hang on to the belief that what has worked in the past will work again and produce the same results, if not better ones!

But, in all honesty, we have to admit that was got us here won’t get us there.

“One of the greatest mistakes of successful people is the assumption, “I behave this way, and I achieve results. Therefore, I must be achieving results because I behave this way.”

This belief is sometimes true, but not across the board. That’s where superstition kicks in. It creates the core fallacy necessitating this book, the reason that “what got us here won’t get us there.”

I’m talking about the difference between success that happens because of our behavior and the success that comes in spite of our behavior.

Almost everyone I meet is successful because of doing a lot of things right, and almost everyone I meet is successful in spite of some behavior that defies common sense.”

Instead of following the same pattern and expecting a different result, another author I’m excited to discover proposes an alternative.

Carol Dweck, who wrote Mindset, suggests we use the power of “yet”.

This way, she says, we can build a path towards the future, leaving room for growth and flexibility.

I haven’t managed to do 20 push-ups yet.
I’ve not mastered video marketing yet.
We haven’t committed to marriage yet.
I haven’t quit smoking yet.

The power of “yet” comes with a powerful assumption: when we frame our decisions, actions, and behaviors this way, we acknowledge that our abilities are capable of incredible growth.

Giving ourselves this outlook can help us cultivate perseverance and grit, both necessary to get us there. The meaning of effort and difficulty shift and we build our growth mindset along with it.

I haven’t sent my best newsletter yet.

So you can bet I’ll try hard every time to make it even more useful, inquisitive, and stimulating for both of us.

We’re all fidgety and weird in online conf calls. In my view, we just haven’t had enough practice. But, just like everything else, becoming able to deliver engaging and useful webinars, talks, or interviews is a matter of practice.

It always helps to know where to look when improving your performance as a speaker in online events. Creatopy got together a wonderful band of pros who share their evergreen online speaking tips and give people a memorable moment.

I’m lucky to be a part of this wonderful group along with Andy Crestodina, April Dunford, Chris Lavigne, Heidi Cohen, Jay Acunzo, Jay Baer, Kaleigh Moore, Larry Kim, Marijana Kostelac, Oli Gardner, and many others.

Because I had a few connected ideas to the main article, I decided to also share them in a standalone article which you can come back to when preparing for your next online event (webinar, quarterly work presentation – you name it, this helps with it!).

Besides the obvious things you need to pay attention to, your list should also include key points that are more difficult to set up than good lighting and sound, a clean background, and a touch of make-up.

Here are my tips for online events so you can deliver experiences that create a feeling of connection and engagement that’s almost as good as the real thing.

1. Practice, but not to memorize.

Delivering a good online presentation takes even more practice than in-person experiences because you have to work extra hard to convey nuance, emotion, and connection.

Becoming a better public speaker positively impacts every area of your life and you’ll definitely need this skill going forward, no matter your role. You’re already doing video calls and talking about your work, but what if you could do this A LOT better?

I learned a great deal from Scott Berkun’s book, Confessions of a Public Speaker, and I hope he considers writing a sequel for online events because they might soon become the norm and not the exception.

Here’s a key idea Scott included in his book:

“Practice: stand up at your desk, imagine an audience around you, and present exactly as if it were the real thing.”

While you may be delivering your presentation while seated, doing a dry run (or several) will help you work out the kinks before tens or hundreds of eyes follow your every word and facial expression.

Practicing your presentation is not just about how you deliver it, but also about what you deliver your audience.

Does your presentation include an interesting opinion?
Does it reflect clear thinking and clearly made points?
How do you plan to make those points relevant to your audience?

Start with these questions to shape and polish your presentation until you reach a stage that suits your audience, that makes excellent use of your allotted time, and that leaves attendees with the desire to act.

2. Deserve your audience’s attention.

Your audience members are now at home with kids, partners, and pets. They’re not in a dimly lit theater, sitting in a chair that puts them in the “conference” state of mind.

If you don’t capture and hold their attention, then you’ll just be wasting your time and theirs. Reestablishing the attention of the room is a lot more difficult to do online because you can’t connect visually with one or several members of the audience and ask them questions to create a moment.

The common setting is virtual, so there’s no shared energy, no energizing rounds of applause. It’s a lot more difficult to follow your presentation flow and the attendees’ reactions at the same time. But there’s no way around it but learning how to do it.

That’s why preparing your presentation’s content is fundamental. Weave in storytelling, use powerful examples and words that bring up positive emotions and reactions.

This is all possible when you know your audience and what they need from you. As a speaker, your role is connecting your experience to their needs.

3. Take advantage of comfortable surroundings.

In his book, Scott says that a relaxed body is essential for delivering a good presentation or talk. If you’re tense, you will project the same onto your audience, online or off.

“As a rule, I go to the gym the morning before a talk, with the goal of releasing any extra nervous energy before I get on stage.”

Since you’re at home, you can exhaust all that tension with your choice of Youtube workout, even if you’re not a gym goer.

What’s more, you can hydrate well before the talk, drink some warm tea, do some voice-warming exercises (especially if you haven’t talked much all day), and even treat yourself to a cookie to put yourself in a good mood.

Getting comfortable doesn’t mean forgoing pants, but it certainly helps that you don’t have to wear uncomfortable shoes and that you can sit in your favorite chair. Set up and relax everything around you so you can be fully present for your audience.

4. Feel what you want your audience to feel.

“I have to embody what I want the audience to be. If I want them to have fun, I have to have fun. If I want them to laugh, I have to laugh.”

Scott’s advice applies perfectly to online audiences. Your appearance, manner, posture, and attitude still matter. Getting comfortable doesn’t mean slouching or sipping water audibly.

People can – and should – see your face as well as your slides. Don’t forget that!

Also, keep in mind that awkward silences are even more awkward online. So are “uhms” and other sounds that are best left out of your presentation.

Start with empathy towards your audience and their needs.

What do they need to feel right now?
What can help them make the most of your presentation?
What experience or emotion can you give them to use even after they’ve clicked on “leave meeting”?

Once you’ve figured out the tech, so you don’t stumble (that much) or get stuck, and your presentation, think of what state of mind you want to project.

In an online conference, people depend and feed on your energy, even more so than in online events. Keep that in mind.

Derek Sivers also extracted some key ideas from Scott Berkun’s book which also apply to online events. Give them a read and also pick up the book – it’s the one book you need to be a better public speaker, online and off.

Good luck with your presentation!

Emails. Comments. Blog posts. Tweets. Phone calls. Emojis. Meetings. Family gatherings. Interventions. Silence.

From parents, bosses, colleagues, friends, lovers and random people on the internet.

There are more ways to give feedback than we can count on the spot. In fact, we often get more feedback than we can handle. Truth be told, most of us suck at receiving feedback and we’re only slightly better at giving it, provided we try to improve at this.

Why? Because I strongly believe that this is one of the most important pathways to growth in every aspect of our lives.

In the last 2 years, I’ve consistently made giving and receiving feedback a priority and it’s made a huge difference for me.

It all started with this book from the altMBA: Thanks for the Feedback by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen.

The people who read it swear by this book, myself included. It can make a great present for yourself and others. I guarantee that it’ll change your perspective *and* give you the tools to apply what you learn.

This book is a keeper and worth reading again and again.

Here’s what I learned from it, from Seth (Godin, of course), mentors, smart people on the internet and from practicing the stuff I deemed worthwhile.

TYPES OF FEEDBACK:

• appreciation – “thanks”
• coaching – “here’s a better way to do it”
• evaluation – “here’s where you stand”

There are many nuances to feedback and often that’s just what we miss to notice.

We sometimes fear giving feedback for the same reason we’re scared to receive it:

“Identity is the story we tell ourselves about who we are and what the future holds for us, and when critical feedback is incoming, that story is under attack.”

That’s why I believe there’s a lot of value in understanding how to break down feedback and how to give meaningful, helpful one that helps others and yourself grow.

When I look back at my own experience, there are a few essential things that this process gave me:

• context – as I mentioned in previous newsletters, I try to be acutely aware that our brain oversimplifies things and escape this; feedback is a rich way of getting more information that you might otherwise miss
• perspective – a new way frame situations and decisions that sometimes turned my view of things on its head (those a-ha! moments are priceless!); new, unexpected possibilities emerged as a result
• objectivity – by better understanding the context and by changing my perspective I managed to reach a higher level of objectivity which is sometimes difficult to achieve in a vacuum, wrestling with your mind; feedback-focused conversations are excellent for stimulating critical thinking which invites more objectivity into your mental models
• clarity – by answering questions in these conversations I got to peel away until I reached the essential (What is it for? Who is it for?); context, perspective, and objectivity are also prerequisites for clarity and sharpness of mind
• connection – when discussing feedback without fear of judgment, you can build bridges between people, the like you rarely anticipate (this Heineken ad from 2014 is an excellent example).

When giving feedback, I strive to distinguish between the 3 types mentioned above. Knowing why I’m doing it immediately clarifies what I should focus on.

For example, at work, I had one to one sessions with my manager and mentor while also having them with each member in my team.

These sessions were led by them (or me, in the former case) and often included a mix of appreciation and coaching.

Evaluation sessions were separated, so we always knew where we stand and what we’re discussing. That level of alignment created a safe space for us to talk about our vulnerabilities and our hopes, without fear of judgment. It also helped us further cultivate a growth mindset.

As a manager, this is one of the best things you can do for your team. I’ve seen it work wonders in my case and I’ve also observed this working with friends and, rarely, even family.

“Explicit disagreement is better than implicit misunderstanding.”

Here are some ways to look at giving feedback:

• give it from a place of empathy – this is not for criticizing;
• give it from a place of curiosity – ask questions and seek to understand the context + this is not for evaluation;
• give it in a way that’s helpful – observe the person you give feedback to, how they talk, how they react and try to help them explore what they’re scared of or what they cannot articulate yet

• give it without making it about you – this is about the person you’re giving feedback to and what you can learn with them;
• give your analysis, not your opinion:

“What I want instead of your opinion is your analysis. Analysis is a lot harder than opinion because everyone is entitled to his or her own taste (regardless of how skewed it might be). A faulty analysis, however, is easy to dismantle.”

“Thanks for the feedback” is chockful* of practical advice on how to:

• structure a conversation for giving feedback
• set boundaries by providing context
• build accountability and create action plans
• “unpack judgment from evaluation”
• develop a fair and useful evaluation.

*I learned this word from the Gilmore Girls. Lorelai would be proud.

“Effective assertion hinges on a key mindset shift: you aren’t seeking to persuade the giver that you are right. You’re not trying to replace their truth with your truth. Instead, you’re adding what’s “left out”. And what’s most often left out is your data, your interpretations and your feelings.”

Receiving feedback

Whenever most people think of feedback, their first reaction is to become defensive. It happens to me more often than I’d like to admit, that’s for sure!

We’re wired to seek acceptance and not risk being pushed out of the tribe, we shun negative feedback.

As a consequence, it’s not easy to go against our primal instincts, so cultivating a habit of asking for feedback and openly receiving it takes effort.

Negative feedback may be difficult to take in but it is essential for leveling up!

“Receiving feedback sits at the intersection of these two needs—our drive to learn and our longing for acceptance.”

What we can do to reconcile these two deeply ingrained desires is define whose acceptance we seek and why.

The standard you use to evaluate yourself and others will either put you on a learning path (growth mindset) or entrench you in a fixed mindset.

Learning from criticism is not just about ignoring ridicule or oversimplification. It is also about understanding how your message come across for people who lack your context and personal perspective.

“It doesn’t matter how much authority or power a feedback giver has; the receivers are in control of what they do and don’t let in, how they make sense of what they’re hearing, and whether they choose to change.

Pushing harder rarely opens the door to genuine learning.

The focus should not be on teaching feedback givers to give. The focus — at work and at home — should be on feedback receivers, helping us all to become more skillful learners.”

One way to learn from it is to take time to reflect on negative feedback and uncover things that usually sit in our “blind spot”.

Here are some smart questions from “Thanks for the Feedback” you can use to start:

We could all use keeping this in mind as well:

In decisions both big and small, we make mistakes. Our intentions are complex and we’re always somehow involved in the problem at hand.

Learning how to separate feeling, story, and feedback is something that can help us gain clarity and guide us towards the real interests of the person who’s giving us a piece of their mind.

When we understand their real interest, that’s when we can “create options” that work for everyone involved. Making this part of the conversation makes things easier for everyone involved.

One way to look at receiving feedback is that “you can delight in the fact that someone cares enough to speak up“, as Seth writes.

I hope you’ll embrace feedback as a way to guide you to your best decisions for the remainder of this year and for the next one.

The first time I saw today’s podcast guest was at a conference for startups, in 2009. I remember Vladimir was very composed and knowledgeable, while I had just graduated and had no idea what I was doing.

Vladimir was already building his company, uberVU, which later got acquired by Hootsuite in one of the earliest – and biggest – success stories in the local and regional ecosystem.

“I co-founded the company, led the development of uberVU’s first products, raised financing rounds, recruited top talent, brought strategic partnerships to the table etc.

I also recorded video presentations, brought coffee for the engineers or cleaned the office. I was a founder, which meant I had to do anything needed to make the company a success.”

uberVU’s development and acquisition paved the way for many startups, prompting many founders to learn from Vladimir. So through the last decade, I saw him at various meetups, events, and conferences, generously sharing his insights.

Vladimir always struck me as a very outspoken, no-BS person, who has a deep understanding of the topics he talks about. His clarity of expression reflected clarity of thought and that stands true to this day, as you’ll learn yourself if you listen to the episode we recorded together.

What Vladimir doesn’t know is that I was hugely intimidated by his knowledge and experience, so asking him to be a guest on the podcast took much longer than usual. What came out of our conversation is a range of ideas and questions that can help anyone upgrade their thinking and their actions – not by imitation but by strengthening their own critical thinking.

About Vladimir Oane:

Vladimir is a modest, deep thinker whose ability to remain rooted in reality is the result of hard work, taking information consumption very seriously, and optimizing for who he is as opposed to following prescriptive “success” models.

If the phrase “it’s very hard to do a Kanye West on a book” piques your interest, I promise there’s a bit of fun in this episode too, along with valuable lenses you can try out to improve your outlook on life, meaning, decisions, and your creative pursuits.

Listen to this episode to learn:

• The fundamental role plays accepting reality in for your life and decisions
• How the scripts inside our heads lead us to stressing out, pointing fingers, and other counterproductive reactions and behavior
• How being aware of your own tendencies (to overthink or procrastinate, for example) makes it easier to find people who complement you and help you avoid going to extremes
• What Vladimir uses instead of mental models to cultivate a rational perspective on life and make judicious decisions
• Why reading with a detective’s mindset can make a big difference on what you do with the information you take in
• Why writing is instrumental to any creative outcome, no matter the industry, because writing is a tool for thinking and because it’s immensely valuable for non-prescriptive jobs
• How to activate the knowledge, ideas, notes, and information you gather in time.

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• “We’re not trained to make as many decisions on a daily basis as we would like” – We wrestle with a wider range of questions than our grandparents did and they can become debilitating because we haven’t mastered the ability to make so many choices without getting depleted.
• Truly accepting reality is key for levelling up – People who manage to stay calm in times of crises base their decisions in their deep and truthful acceptance of things as they are, instead of wasting energy on things as they should be.
• The quality of the reasons for starting something (a company, a project, a job) are decisive for its survival through the crisis we’re experiencing.
• “Intuition is our AI” – We can build better instincts if we’re more aware and become more introspective of our past decisions.

Connect with Vladimir:

• LinkedIn
• Twitter
• Blog
• Deepstash

Resources mentioned in the episode:

• Ayn Rand, writer and philosopher, known for developing a philosophical system she named Objectivism
• Stoicism 101: A Practical Guide for Entrepreneurs

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Full episode transcript:

Andra Zaharia: Podcast guest is Vladimir Oane. He’s been an entrepreneur for more than 10 years, and he’s gathered massive experience building a product that was acquired, and that later became part of a bigger company. So, it’s clear that he’s had to make plenty of decisions from what strategic direction of the startup would have to hiring to choosing how the product would work and how it would evolve. He’s a guy whose way of thinking I appreciate immensely, his perspective on life. He’s very structured approach. He’s no bullshit, the way of looking at things and talking about things and something that I’ve always admired and respected about him. And I’m really glad to have him on the How do you know podcast, because it gives me a chance to dive deeper into how he articulated his way of seeing the world, his actions and his habits in a way that ensures he’s adaptable. And he’s able to thrive in complex and quite uncertain environments such as the one we are dealing with today. Currently, Vladimir is the co-founder of Deepstash. An app whose goal is to help you become more inspired, wiser, and productive through bite-size ideas. And the way that he approaches this new company, his building is truly inspiring. And you’ll see why during our conversation. So, in this episode, we explore many of the aspects that tying to decision-making from both like a general wider perspective, but also tying in Vladimir specific experiences and the way he reached certain conclusions and what he saw worked for him. And could maybe work for you too. I love that Vladimir has never prescriptive and his approach. He always asks thoughtful questions and he triggers. Reflection. And self-awareness in a way that helps the people around him level up including myself. So, I hope you’ll enjoy this episode and I hope it serves you well in this time where we all need a bit more clarity, a bit more focus, and a bit more objectivity around our choices and their influence on the rest of our lives. Thank you for listening. I’m really glad that we’re finally getting to do this and have this conversation. At the same time, I wish there were. There was a more positive context around this, but I think that in times like these, it’s even more important to talk about… to just pay attention, first of all, to the traces that we’re making.
And then to maybe talk about what helps us stay saner and hopefully productive. And if we get lucky, even creative these days. So, thank you for making the time to be on the show.

Vladimir Oane: My pleasure.

Andra Zaharia: Happy to have you. I wanted to start by asking if you feel that decisions are becoming more important these days, you know, from small ones to big ones, when everything around us seems beyond their control, how important do you think decisions are?

Vladimir Oane: As important as they they’ve always been. I think they’re as important as they were yesterday. But yes, I feel like we are leaving aside the current events. I think we are progressing towards a place where we feel the burden of our decisions more and where we were asked to make more and more decisions. So, this is mainly because we’re all connected and we all see what everyone else is doing. And we get the more ideas we have. Our levels of ambition is going up, but also because the valuable parts of our economy are becoming less predictable and more uncertain, chaotic. And while this is good, I mean, like dynamism in any economy is usually a good thing, We, perceive this as an emotional burden and it’s scientifically proven. And decision-making kind of depletes our willpower and makes us more miserable. So in the last decades, we are asked to do more, to make more and more decisions on a daily basis. So, I think decisions whereas important as ever, but yeah, we are aware of and required to make more of them on a daily basis.

Andra Zaharia: More of them, both for ourselves and others. And maybe this is something that, until now, in our daily lives, we sometimes pay attention to how we make decisions.
But more often, we had all these automated kinds of behaviors and habits, which is normal because that’s how our brain keeps functioning and it’s able to handle more complex tasks than just, you know, deciding what to wear every day and things like that.

Vladimir Oane: Of course. But it’s not, I know deciding what clothes to wear because we now have Instagram and we know like every day is a show. So, we have that burden of additional decisions, but in more fundamental ways, I mean, a pre-enlightenment, let’s just say most people, I think, lived lives that, that, I don’t know, have very, very little variation. I mean, like mostly because people didn’t travel, they didn’t have access to information but also societal pressures. So, you were born, you were probably going to do the same job as your parents did. You’re going to get married, have kids never leave your village, go to church every Sunday. These decisions are pre-made for you by the church or whoever was in charge, and then you died and the new generation kind of went to do the same motions. After enlightenment, then our economic boom, by the industrial age. Everything is up in the air and for discussion. I mean like more people nowadays are atheist. So, like, what is the purpose of my life and what is good and what is bad? All of these are our questions, very deep way questions that we kind of have to deal with. Of course, we don’t live on a planet of philosophers. Now people have to make these micro-decisions and they have to think things true way more than our grandfathers and grandmothers. So yeah, I think in in this way, we’re changing and of course, then we have to decide what to wear and include to impress, and all of these micro decisions, but even like the big decisions. Like “What’s my purpose in life?” What should I think of my life? I mean, this whole idea was not a question that our grand grandparents asked, like, I don’t know I’m here. I’m going through the motions and that’s it. Now it’s like “Should I be happy? What is happiness? What will make me happy? Would a career make me happy? Whether a relationship made me happy? Should I travel? I saw that guy on Instagram. He’s traveling a lot. He seems happy. So, should I do like him and be like her? Will that bring me happiness? But maybe it’s not happiness. Maybe I should help other people. And I should be more altruistic.” All of these are like very debilitating questions. And even if you don’t ask them rationally, they can really take a toll on our emotional wellbeing. Especially since I don’t think we’re trained to make as many decisions on a daily basis as people.

Andra Zaharia: Absolutely. And we can see how people react when they feel this overwhelm. We’ve seen this a lot nowadays. So as you were mentioning throughout history, there was a rather set course for life, I guess. And even nowadays there are still, I mean, remnants of that would still kind of direct people towards the next stage or the next step in their lives. But now, especially now with the level of uncertainty that they’re seeing, that we’re seeing, when we look ahead, at least some of the people, not everyone, I feel like everyone around us, even in our bubble, people are still a bit… They’re kind of in this belief that this will be like a big thing for the economy and that there will be like major shifts and major transformations and very delicate, very uncertain on foreseeable future for us. But the people who kind of sit with these questions, especially these days, will have to deal with a lot more self-doubt and a lot more, I don’t know, grappling, trying to fumbled through the dark for some answers in something that seems like stability, I guess. So I wanted to ask if you’ve seen people making more emotional, irrational decisions in times of uncertainty and what’s different for people who managed to stay calm and who managed to stay connected to, let’s say, more objective way of seeing things.

Vladimir Oane: Well, yeah. I mean most people make; I think we all make irrational decisions. I think the difference between us is that, most of us only make rational decisions and a few people out there managed to have a small percentage of their actions being guided by what we can call a rationality. But yeah, I think what all of the rational and a guarantee in times of crisis, we show our true colors, if you will. So yeah, I mean, I had no expectations that we would behave rationally. I mean like why do some people stay calm? And, I think this is very important and it’s probably one of my biggest realizations over the past few years in regard to decision-making. Probably living a good life comes from this idea of acceptance. I think the issues like the one we’re going through these days pressure people and create fear, but it’s fear because we cannot accept reality. I think accepting that the world is a certain way is probably the biggest thing that someone can do to live a better life and make better decisions. Because fundamentally, I think all the issues stem from this nonacceptance of reality. I mean, like we’re going now to a pandemic. That’s the reality. Shit is going down. Things are going to get bad. So, you can accept it and be aware of the situation, but not accepting it as is, I don’t know, like watching TV, but deep down accepting that this is the, how the world is, unfortunately. And then, in this canvas thinking about your decision-making. but if you start with the assumption that what we’re going to right now, or any problem in the world, it’s like some sort of an injustice that has to be corrected by someone, by God, by the state, by whoever you think is in charge of your life, will create a lot of anxiety and unhappiness. So, for me, I think everything starts with this idea of awareness and acceptance of reality. Oh, it sounds… yeah. Now like everyone accepts reality, but I don’t think people accept reality. We don’t, first of all, we do not experience absolute reality. So, what we actually experience in life is an interpretation of reality to our senses, our emotions. So, we all live in the world that is running by a script that we all have in our heads. So, most of them accept reality. And when events happen, that kind of contradict the script that we have in our head, like, “Oh, this shouldn’t have happened. This major event shouldn’t have happened.” I don’t know, my girlfriends shouldn’t have cheated on me or my company shouldn’t have gone bust or whatever. We think that this is like a glitch in the system and we don’t usually, we don’t change the script in our head. We usually blame someone else or we just feel an anxious and we get stressed and so on and so forth. All of those are counterproductive and I mean, any sense of calm and serenity in the event of some negative, event is the baseline for living a proper life going forward. So, yeah, I think that that makes all the difference. And today you see a lot of people focusing on, when it comes to decision-making, on tools and hacks and tactics. Like “How you should make decisions like Jeff Bezos. Here is how he makes decisions” or “Here is the five-step rule to do this”, that I don’t know, Warren Buffett is doing. And if you do these five steps, you’ll be like Warren Buffett. Kind of like, I don’t know, the Nike ads, liken you aware of these pair of shoes and all of a sudden, you’ll be as good as Michael Jordan, playing basketball. And of course, that’s that superficial, because if you want to be as good as an investor, as Warren Buffet, you don’t need his methods. You need his underlying rationality and you need his brain. You can have glimpses on how he looks at things, but Warren Buffet is as irrational as most people. So, a lot of his decisions are emotional. It’s the thing that we have to and scares. How does he interpret his emotions? How does he relate to his life experiences and stuff like that? And that’s very hard to replicate or even access. So, the level that I’m talking about, this awareness and acceptance of reality is like very, very philosophical, but it’s like strategy. It has to start from an epistemological level. Like “How do I see myself in this environment?” And the answer to this question will make all the other tactics more or less important. So yeah, I mean, like look at the world accepted… there are, I don’t know, a lot of thinkers in the world that are talking about this from the ancient Stoics to, I don’t know, where it startled to, whatever, in the previous century. So, lots of thinkers deal with. With this acceptance of, of reality as the cornerstone of a good life.

Andra Zaharia: And it absolutely still is nowadays as well. And while you were leading us through all of these kinds of how these concepts work together and how these ideas have worked together throughout history, because the concept of acceptance has withstood the test of time, simply because it’s a given for any generation, any society, any type of culture or any type of issue that we’re maybe confronted with. What I noticed is that, frustration, that the misalignment between reality and the reality that we expected to live and to felt like we were entitled to. The frustration that arises from that can actually push people to try to control a lot of what’s going on around them, especially for people who have a higher need for certainty like I am. And I’ve been battling with these kind of control issues for a long time. I wanted to ask you if there’s a way when the pressure is on when the stakes are on. If you have a way to kind of figure out what is within your control and focus on that to give you some sort of footing in in that situation.

Vladimir Oane: Well, yeah, I mean, I think you already pointed out. What I am trying to do is like focus on what’s under my control. I don’t always manage to do that, but I think that would be my guiding, a set of principles. Like figuring out what I can do and how I can influence the situation and do that, focus on that part. And of course, in many, many instances, we focus a lot on things that we cannot control. Like right now, there are plenty of debates on what will happen, what happened the whole pandemic. And I mean, everyone is kind of like an orange chair strategy these days. Although the situation is beyond the control of most of us, those discussions are pretty much pointless. But those are these discussions. I mean, it’s way easier to talk about macro events and I don’t know, discuss about conspiracy theories then I don’t know, looking in the mirror and figuring out what we should do better about ourselves. I mean, that’s kind of the issue. I think it’s a form of procrastination what we’re doing. I mean, especially outside of like, let’s just say politics, but it happens in the work environment as well. I mean, so many people are doing like politics and discussing how all the ways in which their bosses suck, or I don’t know, why this project is the wrong one and stuff like that. And, why, because it’s. easier. It’s easier than, I don’t know, focusing on your stuff and accepting reality. And what comes out of that acceptance and getting down to the things that you can actually have under your control people. I think we don’t like to have responsibility for many, many things. Actually, I think the more responsibility we get, the more pressure is for some people and they run away from responsibility. So, yeah, I try to focus on things that matter. That’s easier said than done. I know the theory, but I do catch myself in many, many ways on focusing on less important stuff. And that’s because I have this tendency of boiling the ocean and I want to understand something in detail before I can, I don’t know, make a decision or decide what it is that I should be doing. And after a while, that’s just, I don’t know, procrastination. I’m looking at things from all these angles, because I want to postpone making a decision or deciding I’m doing something. But yeah, I’m aware of my tendencies and I’m lucky that my colleagues are much more pragmatic than me and they keep my desire for intellectual precision in check.

Andra Zaharia: It’s super important to have nowadays kind of a, let’s say, just a group of people to share ideas with, whether it’s colleagues or community, or I don’t know, mastermind group or whatever it is. I feel that we all need each other these days to keep, just to maintain our sanity and to make sure that we’re not running golf in any extreme direction. If that should happen, you mentioned your colleagues and I would want to ask: Your experience as an entrepreneur is so, so long, and it covers so many experiences from early stage to high growth, to selling a company, to advising so many startups and talking to them and watching them pitch and pitching yourself so, so many times. So, you’ve seen the type of, let’s say, usual behaviors that startup founders have when they’re under pressure. And there is a lot of pressure, especially in the early stages when looking for funding in all these situations and experiences. I wanted to ask what exactly from these experiences makes you resilient in times of change and what helps startup founders become resilient? Because it is going to get very tough for everyone and especially for startups who have to be scrappy and have to be, just very resourceful in general, but now it’s just became, it just became like 10 times harder or even more than that.

Vladimir Oane: Yeah, sure. It’s going to get harder. It’s already harder for all the companies. I don’t think there’s a large segment of companies in the world that are doing extremely well.
I think startups will feel the crisis very, very hard. A lot of the startups will die, not that many survived anyway. But yeah, let’s just say that the bloodbath will be more severe this time. The issue who is on the emotional state and the mental clarity of the founders. I mean, if they are well grounded. I know managers to keep their team engaged and they have a clear sense of purpose and direction, then they have a bigger chance of surviving. Because maybe like companies’ early days, they live and die by the enthusiasm and the vision of the founders.
So, if those people who started the company are okay, then I don’t know, there’s more likely for the whole team to continue to operate. If they get paranoid and irrational and stuff like that, then probably the company doesn’t have a bright future. And now we require those virtues more. Usually, one thing that I would focus on is focus on the reasons that made the founders to start that company in the first place. And then, there are good reasons to start a company and bad reasons to start a company. The bad reasons are “I want to make a lot of money and I had this… there’s this trend in, like, I don’t know, robotics or AI or machine learning or virtual”, whatever. And people seem to be making a lot of money. So, let’s jump on board and get our cut, right? Or just want to be the boss. “Nobody can dictate me. I want to be in charge for a while. “ I mean, there are a lot of like silly, ego driven reasons that make people start companies and while a lot of them succeed, I don’t think that’s enough to pull you to a crisis, like the one that we’re going to. So I would more faith in companies that have started there, where the founders were emotionally invested in a problem. They care deeply about that problem. They understand it very, very well and they have a purpose. Their companies are an extension of their desire to do something good in the world, in a specific segment of the economy. So, yeah, that’s kind of what I would focus on. If I were an entrepreneur, I will be thinking like “Do I really want to do this?” Like, “Do I really want to do this when we would have run out of money? Do I want to go without pay for, I don’t know, a long time? Can I?” I mean, if, your whole reason was to make a million dollar fast, that’s unlikely to happen in the new context of the economy. So, you might be very disappointed by the outcome. So yeah, I would focus on like, what are we doing this? And if entrepreneurs are committed, like they think that they have found something that is really meaningful in this world, then I think you’re on the right path and the other challenges you may approach them with the right perspective.
I think in these moments of crisis as entrepreneurs, you have to really pause and think if what you’re working on is really meaningful, speaking about why you started a company like, “Do I am really adding anything of value to the world?” And of course, I’m not saying that a lot of the companies who are optimizing like these parts of a value chain are not important, but you should care about that. I mean, like if you’re doing it, like I have this AI based ticketing system and I’m just doing it because I could do good PowerPoints and I can link five hype words type work together.
Then I think, personally, that this next phase will frustrate the hell out of you, especially if you have zero empathy with your users and potential customers. So, yeah, that’s what I would focus on, like the intentions of starting this company. And hopefully those intentions are virtuous enough and powerful enough to pull you out of it.

Andra Zaharia: Absolutely, and I think there is also something that’s connected here having this vision, maybe not the perfect vision of having a mission, having kind of going back to your why and making it very clear. We’ll also kind of filter the people around the founder, whether they’re supporting members of the community or employees and so on, and those who will who actually believe in the same thing, and who are aligned with the founder. I think they have a better chance of weathering this through and kind of sticking together and making their work count because we’ve never experienced something like this, like the current pandemic. I think that there might be a shift in the way we perceive value and the way we evaluate value, but maybe I’m being a bit too optimistic and idealistic. But in every crisis, there’s this opportunity to refocus our attention on what actually matters, on what we actually need as well, a world as people who are connected together. And I think that now is more obvious than ever. I know that maybe this doesn’t sound perfect, but I feel like there’s a bit of irony here. This purse, this outbreak specifically has taught us how much we depend on one another to actually be healthy and stay alive, which is something so basic and something that we take for granted. So often, there are going to be some very deep social implications here that basically can change the face of society. And looking at what happens, at the shift, looking at ourselves in this context, I think that it would be helpful to rely on some mental models that point us in the right direction. Especially because we’re going to have our brains scattered our mind, scattered all over the place. So, it was curious because I know you’re in not just an avid reader, you’re a reader by excellence. Not just because you read a lot, but because you take so much from what you read and you also share it with others. I wanted to ask, you know, what mental models are your kind of go-to tools, mental tools, these days, in general?

Vladimir Oane: I was a big fan of mental models. I studied them all. They didn’t make me a more rational person. I found, I mean, I think… They’re interesting if we want to rationalize our best or past events, more than animal health has improved going forward, but they are fascinating. I mean, I looked into all the blogs and interviews. I know it’s a trend with mental models. They didn’t work for me as a personal tool. Not because I don’t think they’re awesome, but I don’t think they have practical value. And, in a way I kind of change my perspective a little bit on rationality. I’m going to tell you what my current interpretation of rationality is, like kind of what I’m doing. I think we used to think of rationality, in very, I know extreme terms. Like, I don’t know people are… we should aim towards like Spock, like a method of reasoning. I’m talking about the Star Trek, of course. That’s an ideal of rationality and you have like philosophers in the past, like from Aristotle to like, I don’t know, random, I mentioned earlier that I have this huge respect for rationality and people who live a rational life. But I don’t think that’s a representation of how we experienced reality, to be honest. And I even like some brain studies, like, for example, if you ask someone to pick a ball out of many from a table, you will see that the part of the brain that we use for a reason gets activated after we have started to reach for the bowl. So, the, the decision is made first in rationality kicks and second, with that experiment in mind. I mean, of course it can be can be extended to other decisions, but a lot of our decisions are subconscious. We try to use our reasons just to explain why we did certain things, to explain to ourselves, first of all, why did they reach for the red ball and not the blue ball? And then you’ll come up with a story on why red is more important to you, but you didn’t pick red. I mean, the decision was made before, whatever you think is, you kicked him. So, the reality is most of our decision-making, probably 99% is done subconscious. But still, we’re making a lot of decisions on a daily basis. I think the number is like 10,000 an hour decision, that micro decisions that we have to make, clearly rationality will not help us here. So, in a way, I kind of break decisions into two batches. More like important irreversible decisions, where I think having a pause and go into some sort of a process is important, but for the rest of this decision, which kind of make up the bulk of your daily experience, I started to be much more appreciative of intuition. And I think intuition is this mechanism that our AI, if you will, that kind of automates some responses based on our past and our emotional past. So, I think how we instinctively respond to something really, really important, but how can you train something that you cannot control? I think here, and I’m not really sure that this is the right method, but I think we can build better instincts if we are just more aware of introspective of our past, best decisions if you will. So that can take, that can be, I don’t know, like any sort of meditative experience, whether it’s like a Tibetan style and meditation or for some people I don’t know, going to church and praying, or for some other people is, I don’t know, walking in nature, but having, having time to look at your life objectively from like a third person perspective. It’s very, very useful because if whatever your subconscious is or whatever consciousness is, who’s making all these decisions that you now have to have to justify, I think, I think it’s important. Because I think we, people, look at their brain and their intelligence like a CEO in the brain, like the big boss, who’s making all the calls and, I wear this little genius in my call. But yes, I mean, like he’s a really powerful person in my head, but actually our reality is different. I mean, the voice in our head is more like the PR department then the CEO of the company. I mean the PR department who has to make up reason for all the fuck-ups that that happened. Yeah, well, I think the red bull, because red is an important color to me, of course I highlighted, I green-lighted that shitty project, but based on the data that I had at the time, it was a brilliant project to start then. Of course, we’re making very good at justifying our actions. So I think by focusing on understanding, or at least realizing what it is that we’re doing, because a lot of these we don’t even realize the decisions that we’re making. Having this set up time for introspection, I think in time we’ll lead to better intuition because if we observe ourselves and we think about the things that we’re doing, hopefully, we’re going to make smaller and smaller, but better and better decisions. And of course, for the big projects, the important decisions let’s just say, those for me are the category of “What should I do with my career? Should I keep my job? Should I become an entrepreneur? Should I marry this person? Should I have a kid? Should I start a company?” I mean, like all of these big irreversible decisions, I mean, you only have a few of them on a yearly basis and probably tens of these decision in your life. And for them, I think pausing and not using your instinct it’s probably helpful. But here I’m not using like a mental model, like “I’m doing this technique of making a decision.” I use, I don’t know, ethics in a way, because fundamentally when you ask why enough times you get to like very deep, deep shit, you know, “I need, I want to change my job, but like, why do I want to change my job? Well, I’m unhappy. Like what makes me unhappy?” So, okay, cool, I don’t like this job because by one of the work and more ambitious projects. So, what sort of projects? And you go into these like journeys of understanding of “why”. Why that decision is important to you and going through that process, you find out what are the elements that you have to optimize for. So, in a way, you are deconstructing the problem into variables that you can operate with, and, you know, at least what you’re optimizing for and what the shortcomings of that decision might be. You are building a vocabulary and a set of tools to work with the problem. But yeah, for on a day-to-day basis, I’m becoming more and more appreciative oof instinct. And by the way, I mean, like, I’m a rationalist, I like reason more than anything. I love the enlightenment and stuff like that. So, it’s weird to have this appreciation of, I don’t know, spiritual, spiritual practice. Well, yeah, it’s an acceptance of reality. I think, Spock, he’s a TV character, he’s not reality. And we, we don’t look like him. So, we have to optimize for who we are not, the, the characters in the TV series.

Andra Zaharia: I love that modeling your own critical thinking, your own kind of way of connecting and reconnecting with yourself, especially when it gets tough. These can be so, so super valuable and it looks so different for everyone. And I love that you mentioned that there are no shortcuts and there are no hacks because I feel like we need to say this. And we’ll need to say this for a long time going forward, simply because for such a long time, they’ve been served on various platters online and offline and everywhere else simply because they’re appealing to people and there are easy ways to get a craving. It kind of gets out of section for a craving you’re having, and I feel like everything you described this personal method of yours, kind of this process that you build is really actually building a way to trust yourself when you make choices, especially these small ones that you can’t think through every single day, because it would simply not be feasible at all. Trusting ourselves these days, I feel it can be very empowering, especially because we need a little strength and the little extra kind of, not just extra resilience, but faith in our ability to do things and to pull through difficult situations and to navigate uncertainty. And a lot of complexity, it feels like complexity has simply exploded in our, all our faces. Not that we didn’t deal with it before, but you had like a way to kind of hide that complexity on their various habits and social interactions and matter of doing things, but it’s just exploded. And now we have we have this. What do we do next?

Vladimir Oane: Clearly, a lot of the fear and anxiety, and what we experience in our life comes from the fact that we don’t feel like we’re in control. And a lot of that comes from the fact as that we don’t understand why we did certain things or why certain things happen to us. And that tension comes back to the core realization that I mentioned earlier of accepting reality, but connected to that is accepting reality. And the other thing is to accept that you are the first responsible for your own life. Your life is your life. So, everything that you do, I mean, your life is a reflection of your action and it’s your responsibility to improve it. And if more people will be focused on their true life, their true sense of individualism, let’s say, I think we would be better off as a society because a lot of the stuff that’s happening right now with the pandemic is just pure emotion, right? There’s is no responsible sense of communication because if you would respect your life, you’ll be focusing on your life. And what means a good life means to you? And maybe it’s like, I don’t know your parents or your company or your community. And you focus on that. But what most people who don’t think they’re in control of their life or that their life is their responsibility, all they do is look at the news and be outraged. Because we don’t like to be responsible for our own existence, because I don’t know looking reality in the eyes, looking at yourself in the mirror.

Andra Zaharia: It does, it does, and it takes guts. It takes not backing out when you don’t like what you see in the beginning. And, yeah, it definitely takes time.

Vladimir Oane: But looking yourself in the mirror after you’re doing it for a long, long time, actually, develops your self-esteem you mentioned that correctly. I mean, like once you understand yourself and you know yourself, with good and bad, then you have this accepting of yourself and reality that makes you very confident because you know what you’re working with, you know, the environment, and if you know, not only do you know it, you accepted it and you know what you can bring to the table, where your strengths are, what your weaknesses are.[ You’re aware of, of the, the power that you can, you can unleash in the world, the creative power, the positive, hopefully power, and also, you know, your limitations. And of course, that’s the difference between confident people and people who suffer from Imposter Syndrome.

Andra Zaharia: It’s long way to this and it may not be accessible for most people, especially now in the beginning and sitting alone. Not just alone, but sitting in your home and, you know, having less things to distract the mind with, not that the internet and the TV don’t provide enough. Maybe an opportunity to do this, practice of self-reflection. But to get there, we have to eliminate some triggers and we have to peel away and just do away with some distractions and the biggest one. And I feel like something that can become very, very toxic nowadays is the news and in general, just that just drinking from the fire hose of news. That is pouring out every day, everywhere, nonstop. You can’t fly in the corner of the internet or any type of social conversation these days without running into the crisis, running into opinions, running into anything that’s remotely related to it. So, you have so many years of experience of going through an enormous amount of information and trying to make sense of it. And I like to talk about deep session as well, which is what you’ve built to kind of embodied this experience of yours and this pursuit of yours. That’s so long and go so far back. And my question here was how do you manage information overwhelm? What would you say are some key things that people should just consider when looking at everything that’s coming towards them nowadays, and going forward in generally in life?

Vladimir Oane: Well, I wouldn’t pay a lot of attention to news. And again, it’s easier said than done, especially these days where I’m as guilty as everyone else for refreshing certain tabs in my browser and trying to see if the Doomsday scenario got closer every day. But, in general, I try to distance myself from the news and there are large periods in the year when I have almost no connection to the news or the politics and stuff like that. I mean, a few months ago, I didn’t know that we have a new government, until like, I don’t know, a few weeks months after it happened. But it just was not important to me. I didn’t check it. I didn’t care. So, I had other stuff to focus on and I think that’s extremely healthy long term to distance yourself from this constant barrage of mostly useless information. So yeah, I’m not perfect, but I’m trying not to follow the news and not to get into politics. Not that I don’t have very strong political views, but I found that, I know the daily news or the discussions that happen in social media are quite unproductive. So yeah, no news, no politics as much as possible. But then the idea is like, what else, what else I consume? Well, I tried to read purposefully, whether there are like online publications or books or anything that I consume on purpose.

Andra Zaharia: Do you match your sources to kind of what you need to learn at a certain point or do you have like a plan? I don’t know, a reading plan of sorts.

Vladimir Oane: Yeah. Whenever I’m consuming something, I have a detective mindset. See, we came back to my sense, but yeah, my mindset is, I read like a detective. So, I’m trying to find the good elements in anything that I read, something that I can, that I can use. So, whenever I read something, I read it with the purpose to find useful stuff. And a lot of the content that I consume has no usefulness in it. It’s just troll away or it has entertaining purposes. But the good one that I stumbled across has a lot of like insights, pieces, things that I can use new ideas, new methods, things that inspire me, things that give me a creative angle that I haven’t thought about. And then when re-reading through that, I have to make sure that those insights find a way to become productive at some point. And, so yeah, I mean, my philosophy in terms of reading, I say it’s like I read with a pencil in hand. And of course, I don’t have an actual pencil, although my iPad has a nice digital one that I don’t use that much. But no, it’s like taking a lot of notes. I think taking a lot of notes of what I read and having a method to take this avalanche of notes that I collected over the years into something useful. For me. I mean, l we are going through a time of immense pressure because of unpredictability and chaos and stuff like that. So, the valuable people in our society, the most valuable ones are the people who can put some sort of an order into this chaos. And all the creative projects that are the most valuable in today’s economy are our projects that deal with making something out of nothing. Or at least something unique, not based on a recipe that, I don’t know, it was repeated over many years. So, I mean, you can see that in music, you can see that in technology and stuff like that. And a lot of like our daily jobs until recently, we have these geniuses who came up every few years and they invented some new stuff and then we all cheer, put them in our textbooks and be done with it. But now our daily work is impacted by that. We, most of us, we are required to do something that we’d never done before. And not that we haven’t done it before and nobody else has done it before. So, it’s not even that bad. I mean, it’s worse actually, because you don’t know what the outcome is or what it should be. You cannot even define it. So, I mean for a lot of the workers out there, there is so much uncertainty and coming up with some sort of a structure is the key. And in order to do that, you have to write. And you know that better than anyone that, putting some content together is very, very hard. But it’s not just for content, producers like queue. It’s for any creative outcome. Like if any project: if you want to send a rocket to the Moon or Mars or, I don’t know, you want to run for president or you want to create the next billboard album. It all starts with writing something down, right? Putting a plan together, having some pluses and minuses doing something. I mean, like, writing it down is a tool of thinking and any good project starts with that and usually gets managed through the written word. But here, well, I mean like when I think my method, it’s not that it’s that original, but my method starts from the realization that a document (and I use that as an analogy for anything creative, anything of value that starts with the document) But the document doesn’t start with a blank page. And I think we have this wrong idea that we how we decided to change our lives, start the new thing and come up with an ambitious project. And then the way we started, that is by looking at a blank page and then the blinking cursor. And then we will let the divine inspiration find this and inspire us to create greatness. I don’t think that’s actually what had happens. And I think the blank page is banal, at least the second step in a process. And that process of creative output starts where the inputs, it starts with what you read and you can access that through your notes. So I think the quality of your output will mirror the quality of your inputs. And that’s why I take consumption very, very seriously. A lot of the ideas that we put on paper, whether they are well constructed article like yours, or just, I don’t know, some scrappy notes are not collections of the vine ideas that have been bestowed upon you. They are usually other people’s ideas, stuff that you got from your parents, the society, the news, the whatever. So, you are working with other people’s ideas and to the extent that we can have anything creative to offer. What we offer is connecting other people’s ideas in a novel way. That’s what’s creativity.

Andra Zaharia: Yes, Layering a bit of our experiences on top as well.

Vladimir Oane: Exactly. But yeah, pretty much, I mean a creative, creative process it’s more about remixing all the ideas than I don’t know, having a Mozart experience where I know the Holy ghost comes upon you and you have the divine inspiration to create an amazing symphony. I mean, that’s not the creative process for almost anyone. So, we have to connect ideas, come up with our own flavors, but we’re working with some bricks. We’re working with something that we would… that we consume previously. And I think it’s very, very important to start there. Like, let’s make sure that I’m reading with purpose and that, what I’m absorbing it’s really absorbed. So, when I want to use this information at a later time, and when I look at that blank page, I don’t look at a blank page actually. I mean, like I just collect ideas, and connect them together in a way. And that’s the backbone of my project. And I know you do that when you write, because I’m pretty sure writing the document is usually the last step and the easiest step. The hardest steps is: what am I trying to say? What information do I work with? I have this concept and I have to introduce this fact and actually the order is backwards. So, whatever. You’re working with bricks in your head and then connecting what you’re doing by writing is just connecting the blocks together with some narrative content, let’s say. It’s the same for every other project. I know yours. Your output is something that gets published, then people come and read it. But it’s the same like when you want to start a new technology product, or you want to innovate something that you still have to bring your blocks together, connect them. The output may be different. Maybe you need to convince some people to join your team, or maybe you need to convince your boss to give you some extra budget. But it’s still like some creative output that you made out of everything that you have in your head.

Andra Zaharia: I think that you explained so well, kind of how you articulated this entire, let’s say structure. I don’t want to… I don’t know if you’d call it necessarily a framework, but just the way of looking at things and just your perspective and how you actually poured this into a product that others can use to do the same for their ideas, because one of the most pressing challenges that I’ve had throughout my years of actually making a living out of writing, which I only dreamt of in high school, but looking back, it actually turned into a thing and I had no idea I would end up here. One of my main challenges from all of this was to not only keep this knowledge and extract it and keep it in a way that’s organized because I need structure to function. And that’s just how it works but also find a way to activate it when I need it. And that’s been like one of my biggest challenges and that sometimes still is, because I take all these notes and I usually take them, like I write them down in a notebook simply because I enjoy writing. And that’s one of my main ways of learning and that applies to work. It applies to everything that I’ve done throughout my life and finding a way to organize that and to activate that can be extremely difficult. We can miss out on a lot of things. I mean, you read a good book and you tell yourself you’re going to read it again.
Because you really enjoyed it. And you want to dig deeper, but like 99.9% of time, you never do read that twice. And that’s not lost because some of it stays with you, but not enough to make a difference, not enough to nudge you in the direction that got you were really excited when you were reading like page 56 or whatever book you were reading. And to capture that moment that, that energy is essential to anything that we want to do. It can be a book, it can be a page, it can be a video, whatever it is, whatever it is that that drives us, we need more of that. We need more of that to keep us focused. So, tell me a bit about how people are using deep session, what kind of, what sort of feedback you got from them after they started kind of changing their habits around organizing knowledge for themselves?

Vladimir Oane: Well, yeah, I don’t think a lot of our users think of organizing knowledge and stuff like that, actually. That’s why I think our product is picking up traction… It is because we don’t see any of the things that we have been talking about for the past half hour. I mean, we’re not selling knowledge management and stuff like that, but we are synthetized and professional note taking service, if you will. So, we talked about how important note taking is and how actually not taking is the foundation of every creative project, whether it’s an article or anything that you might be focusing on at work. So note taking, I think is really, really important. But, note taking is hard. And you mentioned some of the ways in which it’s hard, for most people. It’s very hard to put into words what it is that they actually liked in a content. So, they may read a book or they may go to an article or whatever and say like “That was pretty cool.” And when you ask, like “What was the cool thing about it?” or “What it is that you like?” that’s usually a question that frustrates, a lot of people, because the emotional relationship it’s much easier to observe than to go to a rational. Like “What it is that I liked was that idea or that element” or like whatever. I just keep the feeling and not worry about the details, right? But let’s say you go over that and you actually think about it. Well, actually I like that idea or I like that example and I think it’s that thing that is the actual nugget. Then, the problem is you have to write it down and writing things down hard, like, oh yeah!
So, most people don’t write it down, but even if you write it down for a lot of people, the quality of their scribblings is… let’s just say low. So, if through some divine intervention, they find that note again. it’s very it’s unlikely that they will understand what it was about. And then there is a problem over our organization. Like I have these notes, like “Where do I put them? In what order? How should I organize them by white topic, by year or whatever?” So, we’re talking listening something or reading something and finding that thing cool. And you see how much willpower we have to deploy in order to make a small, simple note. So, to my experience, most people don’t do it. And the few people that do, do it badly. So Deepstash, kind of reverse engineers, the written text, let’s say so, our vision is to take an article that you wrote and to be able to postpone or to postpone, to go back in time. I don’t know when you were just creating your core ideas before you connected them and just access those blocks that actually made that piece, in the same way that, I don’t know, DJs or electronic music producers started to manipulate the audio files. Because I know before electronic music, you had the records, or you witnessed someone playing and you consume the music or the song or the album in bulk. You couldn’t break it down into its pieces. And of course, that’s quite hard, but with the new electronic devices and hardware that we have, it was easier to get. “I just need that sample. I need that vocal pattern and stuff like that. I want to create something else out of this.” And that’s how we got electronic music and hip hop and R&B, and like this explosion of creativity and those people are not inventing any symphony on their own. They are just taking things and creating something new and on their own. That’s very hard to do with a written text. It’s very hard to do a Kanye West on a book, you know, Kanye as being one of the most successful hip hop remixers. But we’re trying to do that with Deepstash. So we’re focusing on articles right now. So, for the articles that we present them in this novel format, as a list of ideas, which are like small cards with concepts that are summarized, they could be like definitions or they could be like processes, methodologies, quotes, anything that qualifies as a nugget of information that you would like to access at a later time. Most people just use it to consume larger quantity of information but I think our success has less to do with education. But I think we’re giving people a novel way to experience things that they already know because our product right now is very single-player mode. So, it’s read only, we haven’t added the functionality for people to contribute their own ideas, their own content. We’re going to do that, by the way, in the next releases. But for the time being, it was a consumption, focused product and people have disability in the product to save any ideas that they stumble upon that they like. And in most cases, those are the things that people already agreed with. The things that they kind of already knew deep down, but they were lacking the vocabulary to understand it. And they were lacking the vocabulary to present it in a way that it can become productive, you know, and with Deepstash, once you find something that you already kind of agreed or knew. But it’s a new discovery because you discover that fuzzy thing in your head, but in full resolution. It has like all the words and the right words and I can take this thing that I kind of believe already and I can use it to pitch my project, or I can use this as an argument in my fight with my spouse or whatever. And I mean, anything and knowing how to talk about something that you agree, I think is very, very powerful and people in our app just go to ideas when they find something, they save it. And we, our formats, our ideas have to help with all the issues that we have been discussing, with note-taking. I mean, our notes are professionally made only like we eat, we have a team of people who are asked to actually explain a certain concept or a certain idea as good as they can with the right words. They’re formatted properly. They add the minimum size, so you can consume them just by glancing at your screen. They’re easy to find because you can search them and we have all these ways to resurface them at the right time. And they’re putting in the right categories. You don’t have to worry about where to put them. Of course, you can customize it, but the false work for a lot of our users. So, it’s a new product category. It ties to some of the things that we have been discussing so far, whether, yeah, it’s a new way to consume information in a new way to take notes. We are early on… I mean, we have started our mobile products eight months ago or something like that. So, we are not an old product and we have a long way ahead of us, but yeah. I mean, our mission is to help people work with content and information in a way that would make that consumption productive. So, you feel like you’re getting something out of it, something that you can reference to, something that you can pinpoint to, something that can make whatever creative project that you have on hand, better in any way.

Andra Zaharia: And you basically underpin a very healthy habits and you breach this gap, exactly like you said it. You breach this gap between having the knowledge and actually putting it to work and actually doing something with it, which is something that we need a lot more of. I mean, curbing our conception would be very helpful and making more time to activate all that knowledge and those insights and those ideas, actually doing something with them can be incredibly empowering. The other side can have this paralysis effect than just lead us to endless consumption that turns into procrastination like we talked about earlier, right? They feel like this entire conversation has been just, you know, listening to, just getting a glimpse into your thoughts, into your way of seeing the world, is incredibly helpful. And it’s a deep learning experience that always kind of motivates me to go even further into start picking apart at these ideas and start using those building blocks to improve myself and hopefully things for others as well. So, I really appreciate you sharing all of this and doing it so honestly, because, as we both know, we’ve been around startups for so, so long, and you have even like such an incredible experience around them. This level of honesty is not the usual standard. It’s not the usual, the acceptance and self-acceptance of where you are and what you’re doing and who you’re doing it for. It takes a mature founder and a mature person. That’s spent a lot of time wrestling with these things to reach this level. So, thank you for making them part of this podcast.

Vladimir Oane: Thank you! I appreciate it.

Andra Zaharia: And before we wrap up, because we’re not talking about hacks and because we’re not talking about fraud counts, I wanted to ask you if you have a question that you’d like to leave kind of listeners with.

Vladimir Oane: A hard one. I mean, something that builds on when I think an hour and a half conversation is ask yourself: “What do you do?”, “What you do?” and I know it’s a big question. And if you take the question seriously, you will have to think about it for many days, weeks, months. It’s not an easy question to answer. And if you’re honest with yourself, you need to do a lot of like, kind of folding until you’re figuring out. “Why you’re doing what you’re doing?” So, yeah, that would probably be, I think it’s connected to our discussion.

Andra Zaharia: And it ties it in like we’ve gone full circle this conversation. Thank you again, Vladimir. This has been very insightful and very… it’s just made me even more curious to start working on some of these aspects myself more, and hopefully sharing these with others and, kind of supporting each other through all this. Very long journey that we have ahead of us.
Just like you do with all of your, not only your customer, your users and customers, but also with your team and with the rest of the community, because I know you do a lot of that as well! So, thank you again!

Vladimir Oane: Thank you for having me!

It’s been a tough week for the entire world.

I found it difficult to concentrate these days and I’ve heard the same from basically everyone, no matter their age or where they are in the world.

For example, all I could do in a day was to edit an article, which usually takes me much less.

It’s not difficult to feel triggered during this time, even anxiety hasn’t been a major issue for you, as it has been for me in the past for example. People who’ve never experienced these levels of uncertainty, confusion, and fear might have a difficult time understanding their emotions and gaining control over them.

It may not be you, but it may be someone you love.

Resources mentioned in the episode:

• A Man Called Ove by Fredrik Backman
• books by French social psychologist Jacques Salomé
• Brene Brown’s Rising Strong
• Yoga with Adriene
• the Bannersnack podcast season dedicated to empathy.

Getting from here to there

When response to stress turns into anxiety, being told to “keep calm” and that “everything will be okay” helps but it doesn’t help everyone in the same way. While some people have the ability to use these messages to project their future in a more positive light, for others it’s really hard to visualize it.

Because I am the kind of person whose anxiety is easily triggered and the kind of person who finds it really challenging to envision an optimistic outlook, I thought it might help to share a bit of what I’ve learned from therapy and coaching.

Recalibrating my response to stress factors is still work in progress, but I’ve made more progress than I ever thought I could. Besides reading about it, I’m now truly convinced that you can rewire the brain to respond differently to the same triggers. Not that I didn’t believe studies and the brilliant people behind them. It’s just that when going through rough times, it was hard to believe that it could work for me.

But it did! And there’s so much more I wanted to practice and apply to get even better.

Looking at the times ahead, foggy as they are now, I can’t see how else we’re going to recover and eventually thrive without the ability to:

• manage anxiety,
• navigate uncertainty,
• stick to healthy habits,
• and make good decisions, not just for us, but for others too.

I wanted to share this personal story because the rest that follows is a quick list of ideas, habits, and practices that help me weather difficult moments.

Give your brain a break

With this escalating situation around us, getting a good night’s sleep may be harder than usual. Especially if you’re coming from an intense few weeks or months or if you’re a bit burnt out.

Good sleep is SO important every day and especially when we’re forced to change our daily habits and adjust to a new way of working, of interacting socially, and living together.

A good night’s sleep gives us perspective, it takes us out of survival mode, which may be many people’s main way of interacting with the world these days.

When we’re anxious, our sympathetic nervous system activity increases. That’s the part of our nervous system that controls our fight or flight response. The more active the sympathetic nervous system is, the higher our blood pressure gets, asides other physical effects.

The Director of the Sleep and Neuroimaging Laboratory at Berkeley University in California said that:

“Without sleep, the brain had reverted back to more primitive patterns of activity — in that it was unable to put emotional experiences into context and produced controlled, appropriate responses.”

During sleep, the sympathetic nervous system gets a chance to relax. Sleeping actually, physically and mentally washes away your anxiety.

This means you’re less likely to get triggered the next day. It also decreases the chances you’ll be moody.

Good sleep also keeps you healthy and it can even improve your health if you’ve been sleeping poorly or a longer period of time.

If you find yourself waking up at 5am, here’s what you can try.

My brain likes to wake up at 4:33 am when it’s anxious. I used to get very frustrated because I tried going back to sleep and I just couldn’t.

When it becomes clear that there’s no chance of falling back asleep, my go to thing is to read. I pick a book that’s soothing, that’s not too stimulating. It doesn’t mean it has to be a bad book.

For example, I tend to read psychology or a bit of fiction, like A Man Called Ove by Fredrik Backman. For example, many nights were made much better while I was reading one of French social psychologist Jacques Salomé and now I’m reading Brene Brown’s Rising Strong, which I feel we all need to do right now.

It often happens that, after a few pages and maybe some water, my brain starts to relax and untangle from the whirling of thoughts that accompany 4:33 am wake ups. That’s when I get sleepy again and crawl back in bed with my partner whose peaceful sleep I want to join in. After 1 or 2 more hours of sleep, I wake up refreshed, with zero frustration, and a few pages read. Win!

Set healthy boundaries

So sleep is the first thing worth paying a bit more attention to these days.

Developing a power on-power off routine is the second.

If you haven’t worked from home before – at least not on a regular basis – you may find it a tad difficult to adjust during the first few days. I’ve been doing it for almost a year and a half and I love it! I did my fair share of mistakes though.

In order to help your mind know when it’s time to focus and get work done and when it’s time to power off and relax, you need to give it cues.

• For example, my morning routine includes:
• journaling, which helps me empty my mind
• drinking a glass of water while making tea or coffee
• changing into homewear that’s not my PJs – very important
• breakfast
• and then turning on my laptop and getting to work.

But while I may be good at mornings – because I love them – I’m really bad at evenings and powering down.

I realized I need to turn off my laptop, gather my notes and stuff I use for work and stack them up to disconnect from work. My email notifications are disabled and I’ve gotten better and better at not checking it.

What I’m still struggling with is not checking my messages or peeking at the news. And these days I’m not exactly peeking at the news. Now more than ever opening any news app is like drinking from a firehose. And that’s seriously unhealthy.

To maintain awareness of the time I spend on my phone and on apps I know trigger an unhealthy response, I’ve set limits in Screen Time.

This has helped me bring my screen time to a daily average of under 2 hours. It also helps me limit my news intake.

There are a bunch of apps you can try to monitor and limit the time you spend reading news or on social media. When you see the numbers and do some light math to see the compound effect, I think you may be motivated to use your energy and brain power in a different way.

These days, it’s really easy to go out of control and use the news and social media to try and satisfy our need for certainty. But we won’t find certainty there.

While I advocate for being informed and aware of how the situation is developing and what measures we need to follow for everyone’s sake, you don’t need to stay connected 24/7 to do it.

Scheduling specific times of day to check the news and social channels can help too!

A good book, an uplifting or interesting documentary, a video call with friends can lift your mood, calm your anxiety, and help you more than all the social media posts in the world can, no matter how smart or thoughtful they may be.

I’m very thankful to all the people in my bubble who share their own experiences and encourage and inspire others to either feel less alone and more support or to take action in every way they can. Still, I start to feel calmer when I take a step back from the constant flow of information and just pour my thoughts out, either on paper, in an article draft, or here, on the podcast.

So there’s sleep, the power on – power off routine, and limiting your intake of news and social media.

Got a minute?

Another thing that I find essential is to be active indoors as much as possible.

Since the best thing we can all do right now is stay at home, we’re going to get sore backs and joints that feel a bit rusty after a couple of days. Not everyone has the best office chair or desk or a huge house, so we have to do our best to move a bit.

I can recommend Yoga with Adriene, a great channel that showed me yoga can be more fun and easier than I thought. If yoga’s not your thing, there are SO many home workout videos out there, and a ton of them don’t require any special equipment. Just you in comfy pants, a t-shirt, and the choice to move a bit and give your body some attention.

Getting the blood flowing will also help with sleep, concentration, digestion, and your mood.

Find what works for you and do that

This podcast is about making better decisions. Paying attention to your choices and tweaking them a bit here and there will make A BIG difference these days and going forward. Take it from someone who’s been anxious almost her entire life and has learned to manage it.

It went from the decisions to go to therapy to making it a constant practice, from ideas and concepts into daily decisions and habits.

Empty your mind on a piece of paper.
Create more than you consume.
Find ways to connect with others – through podcasts, books, video calls, phone calls, whatever suits you best.

Channel your energy into self-care and then taking care of others.

We all need to feel less alone these days.
We all need to find the strength to overcome mental and economic pressure.
We all need to find anchors in a world that’s changing fast and profoundly.
We all need to find joy and wonder in the small things we may have forgotten about.

The good news is that we all can, no matter how vulnerable or fragile we feel.

It starts with the decision to spend some time nurturing your mind, soul, and body with good ideas, good sleep, and good food, so you can stay healthy, so you can build resilience and support both yourself and others.

I hope you’ll give a listen to the other episodes in this podcast. Many of my previous guests have been through challenging experiences and they all have valuable ideas and helpful ways to look at the world that apply to what we’re all going through right now.

I’m also working with Bannersnack on a special podcast season dedicated to empathy. The first two episodes are out. You can find the links in the show notes.

Discussing empathy with amazing women who’ve been through really difficult moments has taught me SO much and reminded me or how crucial it is to feel with others and better understand where everyone is coming from these days.

Give those a listen if you want to add a couple of new tools to your emotional intelligence toolbox.

Until next time, stay inside, wash your hands, and be patient with both yourself and others.

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Like many others, me and imposter syndrome go way back.

If you’re reading this, you most likely know what I’m talking about. The gnawing feeling that you’re out of place. The anxiety of not knowing whether you’re living up to expectations. The inability to say “thank you” to compliments and just take them in.

These pop up even on the sunniest of days, in spite of your morning having promised something completely different just a few hours before.

A year after I wrote this article (initially published on Jan 30, 2019), I decided to revisit it in a dedicated podcast episode, simply because I received so many emails and messages from people who resonated with the message and who found something helpful in my story. So here it is, uncut and unedited.

Too often, imposter syndrome kept me from writing, especially for my own blog and personal projects. That’s something I regret. On a bigger scale, it also stopped me from picturing myself in other roles and contexts because I believed “I’m not that type of person”.

That’s why I didn’t realize I have the entrepreneurial mindset needed to build a freelancing business until early into my ‘30s.

But, hey, imposter syndrome is not some magical creature living on my left shoulder. It’s all in my head. I know it but that doesn’t (always) make it easier to live with. Lately, though, it’s been getting a bit better and I noticed the things that made it so.

[bctt tweet=”#ImposterSyndrome can hold you back from living a better, more meaningful life. Here’s how I’ve learned to handle it and push through self-doubt to achieve more:” username=”@andrazaharia”]

I won’t lie: I haven’t found a permanent solution to silencing imposter syndrome but I do have some practical tips on how to deal with it in a way that doesn’t keep you from thriving. Maybe you’ll find them helpful.

Using the same password to most (or all) of your accounts is like using the same key for all the doors in a city. When a data breach like those we often read about happens, it’s like someone just copied that key (and many others). The attackers instantly gain access to everyone’s homes at the same time. It’s unsettling, isn’t it?

This is just one one of the reasons I got interested in cybersecurity: because it changes your mindset and the way you make decisions. Once you understand it, you start to see your own choices in a very different light and you start to question them, to ensure they make you safer and more resilient in protecting your work, life, and the people you love.

In this episode, John Opdenakker explains to us what cybersecurity means, who can be affected by cyber-attacks and how you can protect yourself from them. So take a listen, and learn the basics of this sector that is no longer confined to the interests of technical-minded people.

Listen to this episode to learn:

• The importance of cybersecurity in our lives.
• The main characteristic of cyberattacks.
• The importance of using a password manager and how to turn it into a habit.
• How technology can protect us.
• Why cybersecurity can be understood by anyone, regardless of their area of expertise.

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• Anyone can become a victim of cyberattacks: Our entire life is online nowadays, whether we realize it or not. It’s become almost second-nature to us. We’re all users of technology to some extent, and this means we’re also responsible for protecting everything that we put on our devices. Back in the day, we might have thought that only big companies could be hacked. But now, since we’re all connected, we can be victims of random attacks that can erase our entire digital memory, in a second.
• Cybersecurity impacts our decision-making process: Once we become aware of the risks in the virtual world, we start paying more attention to what we do offline. We become more careful with the data we provide to different organizations – such as hotels – and we take measures to better protect our accounts – by using password managers, two-factor authentication or any other methods.
• Cybersecurity should be taught in schools: Kids nowadays were basically born with a smartphone in their hands and many of them don’t understand the concept of security and protecting their data. It’s up to us to teach them the risks and one way we can do that is by introducing the subject into their school curriculums. This can help to raise awareness to a larger public, such as their parents and even grandparents and it can also lead them towards becoming information security specialists themselves.

About John Opdenakker:

John started his career as a developer for desktop applications, C++, C-Sharp, and web applications. As time went by, and he built and launched increasingly more web applications, one question in particular concerned him: how could he protect all the apps users’ data against attackers? To find the answer to this, John began to dig deep into the cybersecurity world, thus becoming an expert in this field.

John now tries to raise awareness on this topic by writing and publishing approachable, easy to understand articles on his blog, all on cybersecurity topics. He’s also very active on Twitter, where he tries to answer any question the general public might have and engage other Twitter users in constructive conversations about their data protection habits and perceptions.

Key Discussion Points:

03:51 – The main reason why most people have a difficult time relating to cybersecurity;
08:17 – What attracted John to the information security industry;
09:35 – Hack Yourself First – how a workshop that helps you see yourself through the eyes of an attacker changed his perception of how vulnerable he was online;
19:26 – What changed in John’s offline behavior, once he started learning more about online security;
23:08 – The importance of using a simple security measure, such as two-factor authentication;
26:33 – How to understand the concept of risk and why risk is important to decision-making regarding security;
32:18 – How to handle decision fatigue, as a cybersecurity professional;
37:13 – How a penetration test (pentest) can be useful for a fact-based perception and management of risk;
40:42 – The reasons we don’t perceive online risks as important to our safety as the offline ones are.

Connect with John:

• LinkedIn
• Blog
• Twitter

Resources mentioned in the episode:

• Workshop: Hack Yourself First

Resources not mentioned in this show but that I created to help you improve your online security:

• this cybersecurity glossary so you can understand what these technical terms are all about
• this Cybersecurity for Beginners course I created a few years ago with my former team at Heimdal, taken by tens of thousands of people around the world
• The Daily Security Tip: a string of daily, fun emails you can get in your inbox. Get a practical tip each day and a fun GIF to make securing your online stuff anything but boring.

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Full episode transcript:

Andra Zaharia: Hi, John! Welcome to the How Do You Know podcast. I’m really excited to have you here! It is the first time on this podcast that I have someone from the information security industry, which I’m really happy about because it’s a big part of what I do and what I love. So, welcome to this show!

John Opdenakker: Thanks, Andra! Thanks for inviting me, and it’s nice that you invited me as the first Infosec person. That’s a big honor!

Andra Zaharia: That is very kind of you! We’re going to share some different perspectives today around decision-making and around the way that we perceive and the way that we use technology, the way that it shapes our lives. This is something that everyone is starting to talk about a lot more. As you know, cybersecurity has started to come up a lot more often in the news and outside the industry, which is a really good thing, but, on the other hand, what brought it into the spotlight are a bunch of cyber-attacks and data breaches and a lot of incidents that compromise our safety. So, I’m really looking forward to learning from you and talking about these issues and helping other people understand them from a non-technical perspective because usually people get pretty much scared when we start talking about things like APTs and malware types and strains and things like that.

John Opdenakker: Yeah.

Andra Zaharia: So, I wanted to ask you, just to help people understand, who maybe don’t think about this too often, why is cybersecurity so important for our lives?

John Opdenakker: Well, you just said in the introduction, that if a company suffered data breaches – their website gets hacked – as a result, millions of users, their usernames and credentials get stolen and passwords get stolen. What this means is that attackers can not only gain access to this website but also to all other websites for which these users re-use credentials. But it’s not only that; it’s not only websites that get hacked. Our entire life is online nowadays. Ten or 15 years ago, it wasn’t like this, but now everything is connected to the internet. And it’s also not only data breaches, there are also malware attacks, and it doesn’t have to be sophisticated – because you were talking about APT. Zero-day is also something which is very popular in the Infosec community. So, Zero-days are bugs that are exploited already, but not yet, not even yet known by the vendor. That’s not our biggest risk. The biggest risk most people have is just scripting attacks or, let’s say, ransomware attacks – just malicious links or attachments, and once they click, either they come on a phishing site, or they get infected with ransomware – which encrypts all the files on the machines, and then they don’t have backups. These are real-life problems, not those fancy-named Infosec terms, but everyday problems which all users suffer from, like the ones I named.

Andra Zaharia: Yes, that is so true! I think that one of the aspects that make cybersecurity so difficult to relate to, for most people, is that for a long time, people thought of this specialization, of this sector, as something that is only for technical-minded people. But the truth is, now – as you mentioned – that we’re all hyper-connected, and we’re not even aware of it anymore, it’s become second-nature to us, that we are users of technology and we have become techies to some extent, and that automatically involves the fact that we’re also responsible for how we protect everything that we’ve put on these devices, which is, well, most of our lives. This exposes us to a lot of things.

John Opdenakker: Yes, exactly! And then, what you said there – without even knowing it – that’s a very good remark! Important nuance. A lot of people don’t even… Yeah, maybe they know, but they’re not aware they’re online. Well, almost. It’s like it’s becoming our nature.

Andra Zaharia: That is true! So, it’s very interesting to touch on these topics because I think people do this usually reactively – they react to an incident that happens to them at work or at home – they don’t think about it proactively, or very few people think about preventing cyber-attacks and privacy issues. And I’ve seen this happen a lot around me. What worked, was me trying to draw a parallel between their online lives and their offline lives. Because, for example, having the data breach would be like using the same key for all of the doors in a city, and then someone would just be able to copy that key and just break into everyone’s homes at the same time, which, if you think about it, is incredibly scary, and that’s exactly what’s happening online, but without us seeing it and without many people knowing it, and I think that makes it very dangerous.

John Opdenakker: Yeah, exactly. I also wanted to point out what a lot of people don’t get is that most of these attacks are not very targeted. It’s just mass attacks. They’re just like phishing – yeah, you have spear phishing, which is very targeted, but most phishing attacks are just mass mailings in the hope that a fixed percentage of users will fall for the phishing attack. A good example of this is credential stuffing, for instance. Credential stuffing means you have a list of usernames and passwords from one data breach and they just try to login with this list of credentials to another system. I mean, this is not targeted. This is just a list of stolen credentials – and if you re-use them, you know what’s happening; unless the website protects against this kind of attack – probably, most websites don’t – so, you know what can happen. So, this is what a lot of people don’t understand. And then, I like what you said, that you draw parallels with their real life. It’s not always that easy to translate that one-on-one, but I try to do that as much as possible – just that it relates to them as well.

Andra Zaharia: I completely agree because cybersecurity has only been around for 30 to 40 years – not even 40 years – so it’s a rather new sector. We tend to think of our lives now, and accept them, and forget that they haven’t always been this way, especially for younger generations who were born almost with a smartphone in their hands. So, for them, it’s even more difficult to understand how it was before. I find sometimes that older generations are a bit more aware of the risk, but that doesn’t apply to every situation in life, and I hope we get to talk about this a bit further on. But I was curious, how did you start exploring the security path, and what attracted you to this industry? Because your background is in development; you have a technical background, but you didn’t start out 100% on the cybersecurity path. So, I’m curious what got you interested in this field?

John Opdenakker: Well, like you said, I was and I still am a developer. I’m developing less and less, but I started as just a developer of desktop applications, C++, C-Sharp, and then web applications, and we started noticing that the risk of a desktop application means the attacker has to be in the network, if you have an on-premises application. Once you’re deploying web applications, it’s becoming a whole different story and then we started asking the question of “How can we protect this? We have this database with the data of all of our users. What if something happens?” And then, you start realizing, “Oh, there’s more to it! To defend this, you have to learn about it.” I got the opportunity to attend the workshop of Troy Hunt – a famous security researcher – and that really got me interested. That’s called, “Hack Yourself First” and what he does in this workshop is you get to hack an application, so you put the head of the attacker on, let’s say, and this is really interesting. Then, you get this insight of, “Oh no! Seriously? Is it that easy?” If I make a simple mistake, let’s say, if I have a SQL injection risk, there’s a tool and I can just put in the URL there, click a button, and I can suck out all the data of the database. And then, I knew how to defend against SQL injection, but there were other risks. It got me interested, and I never stopped. And then, aside from that, I started to – that’s on a personal level – write a blog, just being active on Twitter, and things like that. And yeah, before you know it, you’re addicted to Infosec, I guess. So, that’s a bit of how it went for me.

Andra Zaharia: That is so true! I think that once you start discovering this world, you start to get fascinated by it, because at the end of the day, I think that one of the reasons that I got so interested in cybersecurity is that it changes your mindset. It changes how you make decisions. When you put the head of the attacker on, just like you said, and see all these opportunities to do damage, as the attackers have, you start to see your own decisions in a very different light and you start to question your choices to make sure that they are safer ones, that they are better ones for both yourself and your loved ones. I feel that when you take on this role, when you start to understand cybersecurity, you feel responsible for other people – first, for your family and your friends – because now you understand more than them, now you know more than them, and you want to help them be safe because you know what can happen; you know they could lose pictures of their loved ones because no one prints everything anymore, and they could lose their work, and they could risk their jobs, and things like that. You just want to naturally start spreading all this information and try to educate others and try to simplify things so people don’t get intimidated.

Andra Zaharia: I was actually on the phone, earlier today, with my mom – I got her a new laptop – and she switched to Windows 10, and there were a bunch of changes, and she was just like, “Oh my God! Things got so complicated!” And I know that’s barely scratching the surface. She kept asking me, “Is there any way for you to make these passwords a bit simpler for me?” I haven’t set up a Password Manager for her, yet, but I’m almost doing that for her. She doesn’t have that many and I highly recommend using Password Manager. I was trying to explain that, “No, I can’t set weaker passwords or simpler passwords because that would mean exposing you.” And I just had to convince her to trust me that it’s worth the effort of doing something like this.

John Opdenakker: That’s a funny one! I had the same discussion with my dad. He was getting really annoyed with something and, yeah, sometimes websites give you a hard time, let’s be honest, so even for Password Manager users like myself – and you, obviously, if I understood you correctly – it’s sometimes hard because they prevent you from pasting passwords or they give you a hard time to just create a password; you have this lovely 50-character-long password, which is really random, and then the site says, “No” or the site accepts your password and then when you try to log in, the site truncates it. Now, going back to my dad, I convinced him as well. I said, “Look, this is important!” And then, I explained what I explained earlier on about the credential stuffing, just in human language. This is what happens when you re-use a password. He said, “Okay, that’s good.”

John Opdenakker: But my dad just writes them down on a piece of paper, and that’s okay. For his technology is fine because, then, someone has to steal the paper out of his office – let’s be honest, burglars won’t look for your passwords. He doesn’t use a smartphone – maybe that’s exceptional because most people have a smartphone, but in his case, this is perfectly okay. And even when you use a smartphone or you need your accounts on other devices, you can carry the piece of paper, just take care of it, keep it safe. But yeah, this is the kind of purism I hear a lot in Infosec community – people are losing their minds often when you say something like this. But each case is different. Like I said, for my dad, that’s perfectly fine, it’s nothing wrong with that. And, as far as your mom, I don’t know, it could be okay, as well. It all depends. And then, if you can teach her to use a Password Manager, that’s even better. For me, that’s not necessary, let’s say.

Andra Zaharia: I highly agree with the fact that security doesn’t have to be complicated to work; it doesn’t have to be perfect to work – in other words, there’s no such thing as perfect security, even if you do everything by the book, and then some, you’re still at risk of someone who’s very motivated finding a way to get to you. So, there’s no perfect security. And yeah, about this purism – I had a conversation with someone a few weeks back, it was actually with a group of freelancers, and I was talking to them about the importance of keeping your stuff safe, especially if you have logins that you manage for your clients because those are super important! You don’t want to share those, and emails, and plaintext, on WhatsApp – please, don’t do that! Everyone who’s listening, please don’t do that – or in any way that they could be easily accessed. And someone with a tech background came and said, “Yes, but the surefire way to make sure that you really stay protected, is to use Linux.” And I was like, “I know, but most people, like, 99% of people will never do that because Linux is not for your everyday user.” So, instead of trying to change their lives so fundamentally and getting them to use another operating system, let’s just try to fit some security into their habits. We don’t have to change their entire lives, from a technical perspective, just to make sure that they’re safe because no one is going to go for that type of change. So, yes, purism, I don’t think it really helps anyone.

John Opdenakker: No, exactly! What you say is so right, but the problem I see – that these people know as well – is, like you said, I think the market share is less than 1% of Linux. So, they know that as well, so why can’t they translate the message, to the average user? I honestly think we’re missing that a lot. We’re echo-chambering. For instance, on Twitter I see it all the time, we’re like, “Oh, yeah, but this solution has this and this kind of potential risk?” “You’re right, but the users are just re-using passwords everywhere.” I mean, everything is better and each step that you can improve their security is a win. But it’s difficult, it seems.

Andra Zaharia: It is! And I think it’s going to take some time because – while I’ve been doing this podcast and reading a lot about decision-making and how habits form – decisions are very tied to habits. To have a habit, you have to start with making a decision and keeping up and following through on that decision for a long time until it becomes a habit. Just like, for example, using a Password Manager. I always tell people, when you start using it, don’t force yourself to put in and update all your passwords at once because it’s going to take a lot of time, you’re going to get frustrated and you’re going to abandon the process. Just do it gradually, as you go along. When you log into a website, change your password, add it to your password manager and just go through these websites one at a time until you go through all of them. And this kind of change in our mentality and habits will take a long time, and I feel like – as I was mentioning – it’s our responsibility to try to help others understand why this is important and how this changes your perspective, both around your online security and your offline security. And I was really curious, once you started getting into cybersecurity, did anything change in how you conduct yourself in offline spaces?

John Opdenakker: Yes, obviously! My girlfriend thinks I’m paranoid sometimes.

Andra Zaharia: So does my boyfriend.

John Opdenakker: And yeah, I think everyone who’s doing security knows this. Five years ago, they asked for my ID and then I just gave it to them. It could be for anything, for something stupid, “Hey, can we just have your ID, so we run something?” And then, they take a copy of your ID. Why? Why is that necessary? If you check-in at a hotel, all this is personal information. Ten years ago, I never thought that all this personal information ended up in an online system. You can think that’s naive but it isn’t, because people don’t think like that. But if you’re in this business and you know how the overall security of some systems is, then you’re like, “Oh, no, no, no! I’m giving you the bare minimum that you really need.” Stuff like this. And then, I’m trying not to be paranoid but I think sometimes I am. Sometimes there’s also a bit of trust, but when it comes to things like checking into a hotel, I think you should be careful and only provide information that’s necessary.

Andra Zaharia: Yeah! I absolutely agree because let’s remember the Marriott breach, which wasn’t that long ago. And yes, absolutely, I think that a healthy dose of paranoia is necessary and I think it can be very useful because it keeps you from making rash decisions. It keeps you from just jumping into things and not second-guessing yourself. And, if you have a job that’s mostly dependent on things that happen online, it’s all the more important to be watchful of these things, to be observant, to know where your things are, and not just to have hundreds of online accounts, use the same password for all of them and then get super surprised if one or all of your accounts get hacked at the same time and you just scramble to get your stuff in order then.

John Opdenakker: What I find particularly difficult there is – like you mentioned before – we should help people and I do that often with my dad or my mom or my girlfriend, just to improve their security. But, like I said, she thinks I’m paranoid, but I think I’m doing it for the good, so you have to find a way to convince them, and that’s a bit of a middle ground, let’s say. I try to teach them why – that’s also important – because are we just paranoid? No, you have to understand where this data ends up and it’s not easy. I see that, because you can tell people how to do it and why to do it, but then it’s mostly up to them, and if you don’t follow-up on that, they might just fall back to their habits, let’s say. Also for their online accounts. That’s, for instance, why I configured for my dad’s email account the Two-Factor Authentication. I just set it up myself, and I said, “Look, this is one of your most important accounts, I will properly configure that and some other accounts.” So, it’s not only teaching them but sometimes I think you should just help them and do some things for them to protect them. That’s my opinion.

Andra Zaharia: Yeah, absolutely! And what’s interesting about what’s happening now, and how cybersecurity is now getting all this attention, beyond the fact that it makes for very clickable sexy headlines which sometimes aren’t entirely true and sometimes are exaggerated, not in terms of how risky and important they are and how big their impact is, but in the way they’re portrayed – that’s very focused on fear, uncertainty, and doubt. It’s this principle that’s been heavily used in cybersecurity for the longest time and that everyone who’s involved in this educational part of the industry is trying to fight with constructive examples that offer also an optimistic perspective that you can do this. If we scare people into believing that they don’t stand the chance, most of them, who aren’t motivated to begin with, will just give up before starting. So, I think that it’s important to offer these constructive models.

John Opdenakker: Exactly! Just using fear doesn’t help. It helps a bit, but it can have the opposite effect. So, I totally agree with that. And let’s be honest, if you have configured Two-Factor Authentication, the risk of an account taken over is a lot less. I mean, we can go and discuss SMS-based Two-Factor Authentication, etc., but still, it’s better than then no 2FA. And even if you just use an authenticator app, the chances are still quite small that you get phished and that your credentials get stolen. So, there’s hope, but the problem is there’s no adoption. I say no adoption because, for instance, last year, the numbers about Gmail accounts with 2FA were published, and it was less than 10%. Three years ago, for Dropbox, less than 1%.

Andra Zaharia: Yeah! That is true! We have a long way to go. And you mentioned something very important earlier on, about understanding people’s motivation, understanding their why and giving them a why that is something they can relate to on an emotional level because when you boil it down, decision-making is a very emotional process. We rarely are very structured about our decision-making, we’re rarely as objective as we think we are. We react to things in an automated way, we rely on our habits that we’ve had for years and years to decide and to choose without second-guessing ourselves. So, I was very curious how you get people to understand the concept of risk because this is something that is central to your, let’s say, specialization, it’s central to your educational efforts. So, I was curious if you could share a bit on how risk is so important to decision-making, in security, in general.

John Opdenakker: Understanding risk starts with understanding the processes that are going on, without going too much in detail. So, what I try to do is explain, like I mentioned, credential stuffing – I try to explain it in human language, and I try to make clear what the risk is. So, if you re-use accounts, be sure that, sooner or later, other accounts will be taken over. Why is that? Simply because… And then I try to use facts. In one of the studies that have been done by Microsoft in 2016, 12 million credential pairs were tested against Microsoft Systems. So, that tells us that it’s something that’s heavily been done by attackers, and I hope to create an impact like this. So, if you re-use, the risk is high, and the impact will be that all your accounts – maybe your email account will be taken over – and then, the attackers can reset all your other accounts and it’s virtually game over.

John Opdenakker: So, just as an example, I try to explain the same with phishing, and then, you can also explain, even if you are phished and you have 2FA, then you’re still saved because the attackers normally can’t produce the codes on the second factor. So, I try to approach it very pragmatically, and then just explain what’s the risk, what’s the impact and how prevalent is it? I mean, for instance, Zero-days: of course, users should patch – that’s why, if you use Windows 10 now and you have automatic updating on, of course, there will be Zero-days, but that’s not your biggest problem as an average user. The biggest problem is, like I said, the phishing, the ransomware.

John Opdenakker: Last year, a friend called me in panic, “My external hard disk crashed. All my pictures are gone!” Pictures of the kids of the family – that’s a bit of drama, right? And then I said, “Do you have another backup?” “But I had a backup. This was my backup.” “No, no. You have only one copy of the data on the external hard disk?” He was lucky that it wasn’t too bad and I could recover it, but I gave him the advice to back-up. I didn’t check him, but I hope he did it because that’s again an example of what went wrong, and luckily, I could recover the files but that kind of stuff, don’t let it happen before you act. I mean, these are things that happen; hard disks crash, ransomware attacks happen all the time, so be prepared! And I try to give examples of how prevalent it is and what’s the impact and what’s the actual risk. I don’t care too much about “hacking my phone via fingerprint” and stuff like that. That’s not the typical risk for the average user, let’s be honest. They need to have your phone in the first place.

Andra Zaharia: That is so true! It’s the small things, it’s the little things that we do every day, and I know that people who are outside the tech industry – and this is not about placing blame on anyone, but rather seeing how we can contribute to our own security – sometimes they expect for technology to be inherently secure, to be secure by default, which would be great in a perfect world, but we all know we don’t live in one. And tech companies can only do so much. They can offer all these options for you to keep your account safe, they give you a lot more control than we used to have over our accounts, to be able to see, for example, if we use Gmail or any service by Google, to be able to see the devices that are associated with our account that have logged in, when, from where; we have all these tools that we can use to feel in control, to get in control of our security, of our data, of our privacy, but we have to use them because tech companies can’t do that for us. And that’s where we step in, I feel, as people who have one foot in the cybersecurity world and one outside of it, to try to bring some of this knowledge, as you’re doing on Twitter, as you’re doing with your blog – where you shared so much valuable information throughout October, which is cybersecurity month. I will link to your blog and the resources in the show notes, so people can gain access to them, so they can read them, and hopefully start implementing them as well. And, we were talking about risk and the type of decisions that someone makes with these things in mind. I was curious, how you handle decision fatigue? Because this is something that cybersecurity professionals often face, because they have to make all these choices every day because every situation is different from the other, just like we discussed.

John Opdenakker: True! Well, I can tell you from my perspective as being an application security guy. The clue to success is to have a good process in place. That’s what we call security by design. And what it means is that, throughout every phase of the software development lifecycle, you have a predefined set of controls that you have in place. For instance, it means that you do threat modeling. So, from the architecture phase on, you’re going to identify where are the major risks in your architecture and then, you have to change the architecture or you just see how can you fix it or how must you implement it, not to face any of these risks. Then, you have security testing throughout the process – and not only testing. By testing I mean static code scans, it can also be code reviews, peer reviews; for instance, if you are working with kits, if there’s a change request that someone else reviews it, but also it’s the security part of the review before it’s approved. There’s also dynamic scans, third-party scans. So, for instance, if they’re known vulnerabilities in libraries or if they’re outdated, then you will discover it early on. Every step in the process is a sort of quality gate. And if you’re doing it at the end, before a major release or before you go live, when you do pen tests, this should be your ultimate quality gate. And it should be also a quality gate for your process because you have a lot of issues coming out of the pen test – there’s always things you cannot test for – but if you have a lot of issues there, it probably means there’s something going wrong with the execution of your process as well.

John Opdenakker: So, how that relates to decision making? When you do the scans, the decision is simple – the static scans or the third-party code scans – if you have a high or a critical, just fix it within the next sprint or the next two sprints. I mean, this is all the happy part, let’s say, if you can start the development of a new module; for existing processes or applications, you also need to have something in place. You have to decide, “Okay, we have to go see, is this a high or critical risk – this particular vulnerability? If so, what are we going to do?” Based on the risk, you’re going to give priority. Maybe there are some issues and you have to escalate it to management or in the board, but you have the processes in place. And then, when you have these processes to use it’s not all of it – there are exceptions, but you’re quite good.

Andra Zaharia: I think this is very important as a framework because I have to draw a parallel here to changing your eating habits for example. I worked with a food coach – and I still work with a food coach – and what we worked on is setting up a process to help me make better decisions when it comes to my relationship with food and how I see it, not using it as a tool to cope with stress or difficult times in my life. So, establishing a process is very important for picking up a habit, for picking up and building, of course, a good habit, one that helps us, one that we may find difficult to do otherwise naturally. So, I found it very interesting, as you described your process of doing application security, is that, first of all, you have all these tools or peer reviews, which means that the automated tools or other people get to look at someone else’s work and see their blind spots. Because, obviously no one can see every type of potential situation and that’s why you go through these iterations, step by step, layer by layer, to rule out risks and vulnerabilities.

Andra Zaharia: I also wanted to explain a bit what a penetration test – a pen test – means. For those who don’t know, it’s basically when you hire a company or use, let’s say, a platform to get hacked before actual malicious hackers hack you. It’s basically having the hackers hack you so you can plug these holes and fix these vulnerabilities, so they don’t make it into the live product that’s used by millions of people. And I know that you, as an application security professional, and everyone who actually creates software that millions of people around the world use have a huge responsibility on their hands, and I think that this type of work is difficult, not only from a technical perspective, but also, sometimes, from an emotional and personal perspective because you’re accountable for so many people.

John Opdenakker: Exactly! And this mindset is very important, but it’s not much different than, for instance, the GDPR, which implies that you have to have privacy by design. If you translate that to a development process or any process you’re doing in a company, but also to the development process, you just have to value that. Security must be part of your everyday job, not something that comes on top of it, because otherwise, you will always be in reactive mode. And even if you’re doing proactively, like with a process, it still can go wrong, but at least it’s… If you’re a company saying that, then really is disgusting to hear, but that should be at the heart of everything that you do. It mostly isn’t, but that should be the mindset – it’s utopic, of course, but still, you should embrace it and then use it in your everyday work. It should be mindset security. And also, with this process, it’s maturity. I always say that you have to grow. I mean, you’re not going to do it right from the first day, but you will improve and by having these quality gates you’ll also see, “Okay, we have a lot of vulnerabilities in this phase, what’s going wrong?” You can evaluate and then you should improve because the process is one thing, but you have to learn from it and improve from it every day. It’s a cliché, but it’s like that. Once you see that a few people are picking that up, the rest of the team will follow. But you have to get it started because no one likes to fix vulnerabilities that come out of tools.

Andra Zaharia: Yeah! It’s not glamorous work. That’s true!

John Opdenakker: That’s really, sometimes, depending on the tool. That’s not a lot of fun because tools are okay, but if you have to remediate risks, it’s something you wouldn’t want to do. That shouldn’t be the driver, but anyway, it can be part of the improvement.

Andra Zaharia: It’s part of the process. I think you touched on such an important thing here, that you can’t be perfect from day one. And I don’t think, when it comes to our personal security, generally, adults teach children how to behave on the street, to be careful when they cross the street – you’re not born with these things. They don’t come naturally to us, simply because evolution has given us some reactions in the face of danger – and it’s mostly physical danger, which is why we don’t perceive the online risks as important to our safety as the offline ones are. But now that they’re so connected, one way or the other, and that our lives are so intertwined with all this technology and layers and layers of complexity, we have no choice but to educate ourselves, and to try to understand how these things work, so we can just thrive and lead happy, healthy lives in the future, whatever it may bring, because, honestly, at this point, me personally, I have no idea what’s going to happen. But I know that I want to make sure that I do everything that’s possible right now.

John Opdenakker: Exactly! We can only anticipate what we know or what we suspect is going to happen. But even then, you cannot do a lot. And again, if you draw the parallel, everyone will be upset when his pictures are stolen from him by a burglar, let’s say. But still, a lot of people don’t see the risk that’s online because it’s not visible, it’s not tangible for a lot of people. That’s a big difficulty. And also, to spread awareness, yes, but it doesn’t scale easily. I mean, you have to reach all these people, and the most vulnerable group are the people that are less aware of the risks.

Andra Zaharia: That’s an important observation, and I think that’s important to know because we should start cybersecurity education when people are very young. I know that’s something that we discuss in the industry, and I hope that we can get the institutions interested in this and interested in cultivating kids’ interest in cybersecurity because there are incredible young people doing amazing things. We had a conference in Bucharest, just a few days ago, where a 12-year-old hacker came and talked about the vulnerabilities in the US voting system. It was fascinating, and the venue was packed, and everyone was super interested. I think that children naturally capture adults’ curiosity, especially when they’re more knowledgeable than most adults, on things like cybersecurity. So, that’s an interesting thing to explore.

John Opdenakker: That’s awesome to hear! I mean, that’s actually what we need. The problem is, when I was in university, security wasn’t part of the curriculum. I honestly don’t know if it’s now already part of the curriculum. It might be, it might not be; a few years ago, I’m pretty sure it wasn’t. I mean, maybe that’s more from the perspective of defenders of application security or network security or whatever, but still, that’s a big sign that it’s still not considered important enough by some people. I don’t know why that is, but that has to change as well. And then, it’s a mix of the awareness of the users but also people building systems should be aware of security. And I see each and every day, if I just go online on websites, okay, there’s a bit of different information, of course, but I see how things are implemented in a wrong way, and then I think, “Yeah, but how can they know if they are not educated?” Maybe the company is not investing in them. I mean, if you have this really small company, they don’t have a budget for security, but they have a website; probably they made it themselves, maybe they have a third party that created it, but still, they’re not aware that their website is full of holes and then it’s difficult. It’s the end-user education, and on the other hand, the people are willing, so that’s really good to hear about this 12-year-old kid – this is our future and these are the people that need to defend websites’ applications and just use their hacking skills for the good.

Andra Zaharia: Exactly! And I hope we get a lot more interested in contributing because something that I wanted to mention is that I think that there is room for everyone who wants to understand, learn or contribute to cybersecurity in any way. I don’t have a technical background and still, I was accepted into the community, I had a lot of people to learn from, and I’m able to contribute with my communication skills and with my understanding – which is limited, and I know that – from a technical perspective of cybersecurity concepts. But still, I had an opportunity to help others cover their fundamentals and use storytelling to get people to care. Because at the end of the day, I think that that’s very important for our safety.

John Opdenakker: Exactly! You have these skills that a lot of us Infosec people don’t have. I mean, if we collaborate with people who originally are not from Infosec – and I’m also originally not from Infosec, I’m a developer – but you know what I mean, from marketing or it doesn’t matter. I mean, we all have our strengths and our skills, but we don’t seem to find a way to join forces and that’s a shame. I think that you’re making a difference by doing so, but still, the reach is not big enough. That’s something I’m trying to help improve, but it’s not easy.

Andra Zaharia: It is not. And I’m really glad that we have someone like you in the community who puts so much effort into creating all this content, into writing articles, into getting involved in conversations on Twitter, because as a content creator, I know how much work and how much time and how much energy goes into all of these things. So, my appreciation goes to you and all of the other hackers or all sorts of specialists who are involved in the cybersecurity industry, which is an industry of misfits, of people who like to challenge the status quo and to challenge, let’s say, entrenched in these habits; they like to question them and find out a better way to do them, a better way to create something that’s secure, a better way to ensure privacy. I think that these are principles, they’re ideals that are very motivating, because, at the end of the day, all this energy and all this effort actually get to help someone. And I think that, for me, personally, this is one of the things I love the most about cybersecurity because it gave me a purpose and it gave me a chance to make a real contribution to improving someone else’s life, which we don’t often get to do in many jobs nowadays.

John Opdenakker: Yeah, exactly! Also, on the other hand, I did this blog series for instance, and it was well-received, and people from outside of Infosec, average users, even non-tech users were reading it and it was shared and that made it so rewarding because if you only can help a few people, that’s a win! I mean, that’s what I like about information security – you can really help people. It’s not the sexiest job or they often see you as, “Hey, there’s the Infosec guy again – or in my case, the AppSec guy – he’s always saying, “No”. That’s also a misconception because I think you should say no, but you have to at least give a reason why. I see too much black and white, and in my job, I never try to block things. Okay, if there’s a critical risk, it must be fixed, the system must be put offline, there’s no discussion. But mostly, there’s some kind of middle ground. You can say, “Okay, we have to do it like this. The risk is quite high, but we can do it this way, so we don’t disrupt you from working, but we’re going to change this and this. Talk with people, make them understand why and the same with everything. I think there’s too much purism or absolutism, and that’s not a good posture for a security guy, I think. You have to get people involved and get them willing to work together with you and make them part of the security team.

Andra Zaharia: Oh, yeah! I love that observation.

John Opdenakker: That always sounds as cliché but it’s not always easy.

Andra Zaharia: It gets smoother from thereon. I think that people get more collaborative when you try to include them in the process and that is a brilliant observation and something that I really want to support and emphasize because, like you said, it doesn’t have to be black and white. There are solutions. There’s always a chance to improve, as long as we’re here, we’re evolved and we’re committed to making things happen because there are also these discussions online, “Is Internet Security a losing battle? Yes or No.” It shouldn’t be that way because it’s discouraging, or it would be delusional, one way or the other. And none of those options help us with our day-to-day things, with the reality of how things are.

John Opdenakker: Sometimes I plead guilty as well. When you see something is bad, your first reaction is, “Oh, this is really terrible!” Let it sink in for a moment and count to 10 and then react. I mean, sometimes it’s really bad and I plead guilty as well. I try to also go out on Twitter, that’s all good because sometimes it’s really poor security, but after all, it often doesn’t have the impact that you want. It’s better to just say, “Okay, this is what’s going on in your company. There’s a security risk, but you can do it like this or like this.” Normally, it’s not going to be very helpful, but sometimes it helps and you are going to get a reaction, and they fix things. I have also examples from companies that I have reported things more than two years ago and they’re still like that.

Andra Zaharia: But it’s still worth a try.

John Opdenakker: It’s still worth a try, and we can only do what we can do.

Andra Zaharia: Exactly! But by our efforts combined – just like in Captain Planet, if you remember the cartoons when we were kids – by our powers combined, I think that you have this compound effect that can happen. And to wrap things up on an optimistic note, I really believe that the compound effects of people like you and so many other professionals that talk about cybersecurity and contribute to actively improving it in one way or another, I think that they’re going to amount to something that’s valuable and impactful. But we do have to keep at it and follow the process, build the process, trust it, and follow it and learn from it, just like you said. So, thank you so much, John, for everything that you shared with us, for all your insights, for your honesty and for telling it like it is and not sugarcoating things – because I think that this is an important conversation to have, and I hope that we can maybe even do this again sometime.

John Opdenakker: Thanks for having me! It was really a pleasure, and yeah, I look forward to another podcast.

We often base our decisions on perception rather than reality, a perception of our making that sometimes gets in the way of making wise choices that benefit us in the long run.

For example, having a corporate job gives you a sense of security and stability that is rarely real. There’s a hefty amount of uncertainty involved in both holding down a full-time job and in running your own business.

I was eager to learn how Matthew Woodward, one of the best SEO specialists on the web, built his impressive business while helping thousands of people and transparently sharing his journey.

For Matt, leaving the ”cozy” corporate world and launching his own business was a painless transition because of his approach (which he shares in detail).

So if you’re looking for struggle p0rn, you won’t find any of it in this story.

If you’re searching for thought-provoking questions that help you identify and move towards life-changing choices confidently, then hit play!

Listen to this episode to learn:

• The importance of using the basic knowledge of offline sales in the digital marketing space;
• The one mistake most digital marketers constantly make;
• How people managed to inject human emotion into the stark SEO world;
• The worst thing that can happen if your new business fails;
• Why asking basic questions leads to understanding a person’s perspective on the subject you’re interested in.

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• The power of observation – As digital marketers, we base many of our decisions on the data we are provided with by the different analytics software. However, the caveat to this approach is that we risk forgetting that behind those numbers there are real people with complex motivations and intentions. To remain connected to human nature, we can rely on observation – one of the most underused tactics. Questions like “Why did people take that decision? What problems are they facing? How can I connect that to a solution and a product?” can be especially revealing and can only be answered by paying attention to the human behavior. We can learn more by doing that than by reading any charts or books.
• Living versus existing – Finding and pursuing our passion is the element that differentiates these two notions. Experiment and see what works for you, what helps you grow, what makes you tick, and what gives you energy, because, at the end of the day, if you’re in a job or if you’re running a business that you don’t love, it will be hard to find the work-life balance that we’re all looking for.
• Never assume. Always ask questions – Matt emphasized that even if we’re sure we know the right answer, it doesn’t hurt to just ask – it might actually unveil new opportunities. Setting aside our ego and keeping an open mind to other people’s perspectives on a particular subject allows us to broaden our understanding of the answer, even if it’s something we consider basic.

About Matthew Woodward:

Since 2012, Matt has been publishing detailed tutorials and case studies focused on helping people grow their business and reach new levels of success, by increasing search traffic and profits.

Over the years, his blog – matthewwoodward.co.uk – received a bunch of awards and has helped thousands of people.

On top of his consistently great work, Matt is very transparent about his process. He published a monthly income report for nearly six years, complete with details about his journey of taking his blog from zero to a million dollars. He shares exactly what he did each month and why he did it, along with all of his traffic sources, income, and expenses.

Key Discussion Points:

01:35 – How Matt got started in digital marketing;
04:20 – The reason why Matt built his first website and what he learned from that experience;
08:40 – The one thing that stayed the same throughout the evolution of the Internet – seen through the eyes of an SEO specialist;
13:24 – What Matt has learned about human nature by working in the SEO world;
19:02 – Why Matt decided to move to Costa Rica;
25:24 – Matt’s transition from the corporate world into starting a business on his own;
35:50 – What is Matt’s first question when he interviews someone;
38:57 – The story of Matt’s income reports that he published every month for 6 years;
45:16 – The benefits of always asking the questions whose answers you think you already know.

Connect with Matt:

• Website
• Youtube Channel
• LinkedIn
• Twitter
• Facebook

Resources mentioned in the episode:

• Matt’s Income Reports
• John Chow’s website

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Full episode transcript:

Andra Zaharia: It’s excellent having you here, Matt! I’m really excited to talk to you today!

Matthew Woodward: Yeah, thanks for having me on! This is very different from any podcast I’d normally do, so I’ve actually been quite looking forward to it and to sharing different things that have contributed to my journey and success with everyone.

Andra Zaharia: Me as well, especially because I think that being able to talk to someone who’s so open about their process in so many ways, and has taught many others, of course, through that transparency, and I think that’s one of the things that helps us the most because – as we were chatting about just a minute earlier – so much in our industry, in digital marketing especially, but in the world, in general, so much is changing that I think that the one thing we can rely on is our process. So, I’m really, really excited to find out more about how you do things.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah! I’ve got a lot to share, so I hope everyone listening has got at least a notepad to hand.

Andra Zaharia: That is excellent! So, your story has so many aspects to it, and you’ve been on this journey for over two decades now, building your own business, contributing to building other people’s businesses – either in your background as an employee or as a mentor and kind of a guide for other people around the world. So, I think it would be interesting to kind of share with people how you got started in digital marketing. From what I know from you, it was kind of something that happened naturally, instead of being that decision that I’m going to do exactly this profession. Could you tell us a bit more about that?

Matthew Woodward: Yeah. I mean, I didn’t decide I was going to do digital marketing and I guess I was doing digital marketing before digital marketing had a name. I didn’t really know it was what I was doing. One of the things many new digital marketers miss is they miss basic sales knowledge, and that really helps you get a leg up in a competition because you can apply all of the different principles of sales and marketing offline to the new digital world. It’s the same lessons, just in a different medium many, many times. So, I’ve been doing sales for as long as I can remember. I was a kid that was selling sweets at school, selling Pokémon cards, I’d spend my weekends going door to door, knocking on people’s doors and asking if I could wash their car or tidy up their garden or whatever, just for a few dollars.

Andra Zaharia: And did you have a mentor for that or an example in the family or was it just something you felt naturally drawn to?

Matthew Woodward: Yeah, well, I guess I was naturally drawn to it, but the reason I was naturally drawn to it is my dad was always in car sales – he was one of the most successful car salesmen in the UK. He would, then, go into failing car garages and turn them around into making a lot of money. And he had a very specific kind of three-year plan in how he did that and he went garage to garage doing that. So, I’ve always been passively fed lessons and mindset in sales. So, I guess that’s why I was the kid that I was.

Andra Zaharia: And you kept on building on that.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah, yeah. All of that has progressed. I mean, the reason I built my first website was I was playing competitive games online, way back when, like, again, before eSports was a thing. We were playing that, we were doing LAN parties, and it was just when it was getting started, just when Intel and AMD would start to sponsor teams 15 – 18 years ago. So, I created a website so people could share their videos of their best bits, their highlight reels. But to create those highlight reels back then, we had to get our video out from the computer to a VHS player, press record on a tape and play the tape back into the computer. I’m talking before YouTube days. So, I built a website that allowed people to share those videos. Now, because I was a kid, and looking back on it, I lacked the vision to create YouTube – I built a website for people to share videos of their best gaming moments, whereas what I should have done is build a website for people to share videos.

Andra Zaharia: But still, it was kind of your MVP, it was your way to test the idea and see if it touched people.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it was my first website, I built a community, I was learning the basics of copywriting, administration, all that tech stuff of setting up servers. At that moment in time, I was delivering newspapers before school to pay for the server. And at the same time, competitive gaming taught me a lot about teamwork, strategy, planning, and execution. So, all of those things back then, when I was really just a kid playing – I was just playing games really, and then built a website to share some of that, that’s all I did – but it gave me the foundation skills which has now allowed me to help tons, and tons, and tons of people because I’ve now built a community where I help people grow their business rather than help people correct their gaming profile.

Andra Zaharia: But still, that was an important stage in your life because you basically started acquiring, let’s say, the hacker’s mentality, but the good version of hackers.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah. Google was my teacher for whatever it was – I was learning the basics of video editing, animation, and lots of other things that, at that time, ironically enough, my mom always used to be like, “Why are you wasting time playing games? Get off that bloody computer!”

Andra Zaharia: I remember mine telling me something similar in high school, “Stop wasting time on that!” Even though I did good in school. But yeah, it was like this big distraction and, hey, look at it becoming our actual profession and our actual activity.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah. And people didn’t have mobile phones and it was dial-up internet, so if you were on the internet, no one could use the phone – it was a big deal.

Andra Zaharia: It was! It was kind of an event, a very eventful happening in the family. It was like an intruder into their lives, I think, that they didn’t fully comprehend. I’m sure that we didn’t either, but I think that kind of teaches us an important lesson about how we see the future or how we imagine the future is going to be because we have absolutely no idea what it’s going to look like 20 years from now. We never ever would have imagined the past years happening as they did.

Matthew Woodward: There was a time when you wouldn’t have predicted MySpace.

Andra Zaharia: Oh, yes!

Matthew Woodward: I’ve seen the birth of Google, I’ve seen the birth of YouTube, I’ve seen it all come and go, and even actually being in it, like heavily involved in it, all of those years, I still have got no idea where we’re going.

Andra Zaharia: That is so true! But what do you think has stayed the same throughout this evolution? Because you’ve seen these trends so closely, you’ve seen platforms evolve, you’ve worked with them and, being an SEO specialist means that you get to understand them in-depth, and you get to study the algorithms behind it, the intention, the philosophy behind the product. So I’m very curious what you think hasn’t changed throughout all these stages – maybe about humans or the process itself.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah. I mean, the common denominator is humans, right? Like, we always are the same, and as much as we like to think we’re all individual, unique people, psychology essentially tells us that we’re not – we’re one of 12 personality types. We’re all driven by similar things, in the end, and we’re just in a different visual style, but mentally, a lot of us are very similar, and we’re driven by different things and that stayed consistent. There’s always a human at the end of the computer. Now, as an SEO specialist, and where I actually gain a lot of advantage over my competitors is I stay connected to the human part, and the reason I can stay connected to the human part is because I was the dude that was knocking on your door trying to sell you stuff. I’ve done that and I’ve carried that over into the digital world. It’s very easy. We have data, and analytics, and numbers, and we forget that there’s a human at the end of that number. If you get 100 visits on your site, it’s very easy to kind of go like, “Well, yeah, I just got 100 today.” You downplay it a little bit. But if you were in a room with 100 people, all staring at you, and you were reading your content to them, you’d feel that, but you don’t feel that by looking in a graph or in Google Analytics, or wherever it is. You don’t feel it. So, the thing that’s remained consistent is humans, but one of the consistent mistakes I see from digital marketers – and I especially see it from anyone like SEOs or anything technical – is forgetting about that consistent. And I see it from how people write an outreaching email, to how they create content, to how they… Just things that they do. They just forget that, at the end of it all, the web is connecting people, and that’s the thing that people forget a lot of the time.

Andra Zaharia: I love that observation so much! I think it’s so valuable and it’s going to become increasingly valuable the more we get disconnected from each other through technology, by over-relying on technology and forgetting what it’s all about. And you’re talking about this purpose so articulately. I think that’s kind of a lesson that really overflows into all of the areas in our lives because it’s changed our behavior as marketers or as people working behind the scenes, let’s call it, whatever that scene may be – a website or a product or whatever – and the people actually using the technology who also sometimes forget that there are humans behind businesses. And I think that the most valuable businesses are exactly that. They’re extremely, extremely human.

Matthew Woodward: At the end of it, a human is the person that’s going to pull their wallet out, type their credit card information, and then give you a sale – not a data or a chart or anything else. So, keeping that human in mind really, really, really is important. And all of that really comes just from observation – one of the most underused tactics, again, because of data and analysis and all these other stupid things. Just observe.

Andra Zaharia: Exactly! Just talk to people!

Matthew Woodward: That’s why I focus on the people – just observe what’s happening in any market, observe why do people take that decision? Why do they go there? What problem are they facing? What fear does that generate? How can I connect that to a solution and a product? All of that is observation with a human in mind. And oftentimes, if you just sit back and think, or even just look at Facebook groups and even just go and ask a question on a Facebook group, you’ll learn more doing that than you will in any kind of tool that does any kind of analysis for you. One of the most underused things is the computer between our ears, right now.

Andra Zaharia: Yes, I preach to that! So true! And building on top of this topic about your experience and your expertise, I think that when you look at it from a psychological standpoint, SEO is basically a process to help other people make decisions, of course, in favor of a business because in an ideal world, we would all work for businesses that we truly believe in that are actually doing something truly helpful and kind of helping people navigate all the information overflow right now. I think that that’s a very important process. I’m curious what’s the SEO process and what your success in this area taught you about human nature since we’re exactly on that topic?

Matthew Woodward: Well, from a cynical point of view, the SEO community generally will abuse any opportunity it finds until it dies.

Andra Zaharia: I love that you tell it like it is. Always!

Matthew Woodward: Yeah. And, as soon as anyone gets a whiff of anything, it just gets abused, absolutely hardcore. And I’ve seen it so many times over the years. And you do see it, even if you turn the news on and watch for 20 minutes and you’ll see examples of exactly that, throughout humanity. So it’s not just the SEO community, but we definitely have a reputation not exactly squeaky clean. Not completely squeaky clean. And one of the really interesting things I see in the SEO community – and specifically how it relates to human nature – is the black hat SEO and the white hat SEO divide. Some people like to say, “Oh, I’m super ethical, I’m white hat, I’m clean. I’m whiter than white” and they kind of put themselves on a perch. The black hat guy says, “I don’t follow the rules. I’m cool.” They’re kind of like the bad boy, and they put themselves on their own perch. And for me, if you label yourself as a white hat SEO, you’re an idiot, and if you label yourself as a black hat SEO, well, you’re the same type of idiot. And then, you’ve got people that label themselves as grey hat SEO – they’re trying to play both roles – and that’s just two types of idiots put together. And the reason I say that and why it’s interesting about humanity is, even in a world that’s driven by a computer algorithm that has no morals, no ethics, no anything whatsoever, and our job as SEOs is just to give the algorithm the signals it wants, even in something so inhumane, we’ve managed to inject human emotion to it and created division by labelling it as white hat and black hat. Like, that is human nature at its finest – how we’ve managed to create division over something that is not humane. It’s an algorithm, it’s a computer, and we’ve somehow created a divide over that.

Andra Zaharia: Because we can’t help it! I don’t think, literally, we’ll never be completely objective. It’s just not within our power.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah, yeah. And that’s very interesting from an observation point of view, of how people work, not just in the SEO community, but when you look outside of the SEO community, it starts to make sense why there’s so much conflict in the world. And, if I hear anyone label themselves as a white hat or a black hat SEO, it only tells me you don’t understand the full picture because if you label yourself as white hat SEO, you inherently become ignorant of anything black hat. And, it’s the same, if you label yourself as black hat you inherently become ignorant of anything white hat. And when you do that, you only serve to stop yourself from growing and learning because you become ignorant to half of the knowledge. So, that’s like yeah, that’s human nature, right?

Andra Zaharia: And that’s beautifully put. This reveals how deeply you’re rooted in the process, not just in the SEO industry, but in psychology in general, because I think that’s kind of the fundamental aspect to our jobs as digital marketers, and our jobs as humans, because the better we really understand how the human mind works – ours and other people’s – that’s when you actually get to make a change. And I think that kind of change, being the constant in our lives, adapting to it, and learning from it and growing is this invaluable skill that you can’t survive without, basically.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah, and it’s just so interesting that we create human divide in that. I mean, I don’t know if you’ve seen Terminator, but I’m pretty sure we should be united against the algorithms, not creating human divide.

Andra Zaharia: That is true! I think that’s one lesson we may have to learn the hard way.

Matthew Woodward: Oh, it’s coming! That lesson is coming!

Andra Zaharia: Yeah! But, to keep things in an optimistic direction, I wanted to switch a bit the focus from your work, kind of peeking behind the scenes, as we talked about. I know that you moved to Costa Rica a while ago, and I’m curious about how that happened. I know you’ve told a bit of the story on your blog – on your website, actually – but I’m curious to hear it from you and understand how this decision happened and how you see it now, looking in hindsight.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah, I mean, the blog’s been a great journey because it’s allowed me to elevate so many people and the biggest reward from that is the Testimonials page. I promise, if you try and read all of the testimonials, you’ll get bored before you read them all. There’s just so many of them! And one of them that came in was an email saying, “Hey! I’m an Italian guy living in Costa Rica. You’ve helped me out a bunch. I’d like to invite you for a beer and let’s talk.” So, I was like, “Yeah, cool, let’s go!” So I went out and spoke with them and spent a bit of time here, and when I went back, I was like, “Hmm! England really sucks!”

Andra Zaharia: How long were you there for?

Matthew Woodward: Only for a couple of weeks. And it’s not like I wasn’t traveled – I’ve been to lots of other places and lots of other cultures before that – but Costa Rica was very different in that, outside of the capital, it doesn’t really suffer from consumerism, it doesn’t suffer from capitalism and people don’t have very much but they’re all walking around, happy, glowing, the people are just open, kind, nice. It’s just a very, very nice culture in the way that they do things. In contrast, I’ve returned to the UK and, if you walk around any town or city where people have, essentially, a lot – everyone’s miserable, they all have these grim looks on their faces. And you feel that. Once you see it, you feel it. And having seen in Costa Rica how people were just happy, it was just by default, they were just happy. Any interaction with any human was just happy – even in little things, like paying for groceries, they were like, “Happy talking to you, how’s your day?” People are just happy. You go pay for your groceries in the UK, that is like, “beep, beep, beep”, and they’re just looking at you and you’re like, “Hey, how are you?” And they just look at you, like, “What do you want? Just stand there and shut up!” And you feel that, once you’ve seen it. So, I couldn’t handle not only the UK way of life but in most first-world countries – the United States, I felt it a little bit in France – it’s just not… Yeah, it’s just a very different way of living, here. The mindset is completely different. And I actually think that’s largely down to the fact that there isn’t consumerism and capitalism, which is ironic, being a marketer.

Andra Zaharia: Yes! I know, I know.

Matthew Woodward: The irony it’s not lost on me.

Andra Zaharia: I find that increasingly more people, especially those who work in technology or have done so from a very early age, are kind of overstimulated and always connected, they feel the need to kind of balance this out with a different lifestyle – one that brings you peace of mind or, as you mentioned, the default say that something that’s more much more relaxed in human and disconnected from all these mental health issues and general societal issues and so on and so forth.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah, well, down here, we can tell who is a tourist by how fast they walk, and that really sums up I think a lot of the problems in society, because you’re always rushing to wherever it’s worth, to make ends meet with the bills, to make sure your kids get to wherever on time – whatever it is that’s pressuring your life to run around like a headless chicken. That just doesn’t happen here. It just doesn’t. And you can see the difference just by how fast people walk – it’s one of the observations.

Andra Zaharia: So that was a big motivation for you – the culture – for moving your entire family there.

Matthew Woodward: At that point, it was just me.

Andra Zaharia: Oh, okay! I didn’t know that aspect!

Matthew Woodward: Yeah. Since then, I bought a house here, I have a baby, a dog – the full nine yards, yeah.

Andra Zaharia: Congratulations!

Matthew Woodward: That was after finding what I never even thought could ever imagine. I could never imagine a place like this existed or even happy people really existed.

Andra Zaharia: That’s such a wonderful thing to hear, that things kind of fell into place the moment you found the place where you felt like you belonged, because I think that one of the underrated aspects of traveling is not just to go about going there and learning about other people’s history, but sometimes you can actually find a place that you feel much more comfortable and natural calling home than your actual home.

Matthew Woodward: It wasn’t that I wasn’t comfortable before. I was! I was perfectly happy, up until I knew what the other possibilities were.

Andra Zaharia: So when the baseline kind of changed.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah! And once I’ve seen it, and then I went back, then I was like, “Oh, well, that’s a bit inconvenient, isn’t it?”

Andra Zaharia: Did the same thing kind of happened when you went from your corporate job to building your business? Was it kind of building your project set that baseline in a different way than the job you had back then? Because that was also kind of a big change in your life.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah, I mean, the corporate world was, let’s say, an interesting journey. I certainly learned a lot of lessons I wouldn’t have learned anywhere else. And when I was unlucky enough to be in… Well, I wasn’t unlucky enough – I hate that word – I chose to be unlucky and live in the corporate world. Digital marketing, online sales and that, it wasn’t really a serious sales channel; people, not only did they not take it seriously, but didn’t understand it. So, as someone that had kind of grown up on the internet and doing sales and marketing all my life, I was finding great success there, but the problem was the corporate was really slow and rigid and web’s fast and dynamic. And then, everyone in charge, they were all used to the slow, rigid corporate way of doing things. It was just a constant battle. And when I say a constant battle, it meant like, sometimes, if I sold a unit of stock, because of their stupid internal systems, it meant I had to print a form off – well, first of all, create the form, then print it off – and then run around and get three signatures from two different levels of the building before they could release a stock to send it out. And you had to do that for nearly every single order. I mean, next-day delivery was impossible because the process was so slow and rigid in how it worked. So, the corporate world was progressively growing more frustrating. The more success I had in the corporate world, the more frustrating it was, because I was always banging my head on the ceiling and really having to fight to lift that ceiling. I was always, no matter what success we had, we always had that next ceiling that was really hard to punch through and after you’ve punched through a few ceilings, it really gets tiring.

Andra Zaharia: That’s true! No matter how much energy and drive you have, it gets old at some point and I know that you were told – because you wrote about this – you were told, “Matthew, you’re too passionate about what you do to work in the corporate environment.” That kind of left me like, “But isn’t this kind of what we’re looking for?” I like people who own up to their way of doing things. At least they’re open about it.

Matthew Woodward I was constantly in HR for disciplinary meetings. I personally didn’t feel like I earned them, but, if we were pushing forward on something, and someone was imploding in the way, I’d tell them, “Come on, look, we’ve got to get this done! Why haven’t you done that?” But, in the corporate world, you can’t do that. You have to tell your manager and their manager has to tell their manager, and then they have to speak to them and then they have to have a meeting about it. So, when people were told they weren’t performing by someone that they probably shouldn’t have been told by…

Andra Zaharia: That is an issue entirely by its own.

Matthew Woodward: Well, I’m like, “You’re all moaning that you didn’t get paid your bonus. Come on, let’s go and make some sales so we’re all happy!” I wasn’t complaining that people were not pulling my own way – I was doing 80-90 hour/week as a corporate slave, I was truly a corporate slave in every sense of the word – but having great success, financially, despite all of the problems. So, while I was on that corporate journey, at the same time, I always had my personal interest in building sites and communities and whatnot. So, I was also building my own sites and trying things and experimenting and this, that and the other. For example, I remember trying to get just an email and a newsletter deployed on a site in the corporate thing – it took us 14 months. Like, 14 months of meetings, we had to take a two-hour train to London to go and have a 10-minute meeting with some developer and it was just ridiculous! Whereas, in my spare time, that was 10 minutes tops to deploy that. So I started to take advantage over the corporate machine, and I was building my sites, building my sites, ranking them and it got to the point where all of the people that were disciplining me or creating the ceilings, I was making more money in a week than they were making in a month, but they were still looking down.

Matthew Woodward: So, my jump from the corporate world into doing my own thing was relatively risk-free because I’ve spent time building it up outside of work so that there wasn’t a point where my income stream dropped. It only dropped when I lost the salary from the corporate job, but I was still making more than that, anyway. So, the decision was very easy, financially. Mentally, it was a bit of a different transition because you’ve got to get used to creating your own working environment, your own schedule, your own process. So that was more of a challenge than the financials of it.

Andra Zaharia: It always is, isn’t it? I think that this happens to most business owners who go into this to perform, not just to create, not just to do it for a hobby or just to get away from something, but to build something. And I think that that’s a big difference because I’ve seen many people transition from their role as an employee – myself included having gone through this process – and I’ve seen some of them fail because they were just trying to get away from something, not build toward something. You had acquired this habit through so many years of practice.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I didn’t do it on purpose, I never intended.

Andra Zaharia: But it’s true!

Matthew Woodward: If anyone’s listening, that is in that position and they’re thinking about taking the jump, look, I didn’t have the additional fear or worry of money and at that age neither did I have the additional fear of family or any of those pressures. But, if you’re in that position now, the important thing to remember is that no matter what happens, you can always get a job like you’ve got now, you can always go back to where you are now. So that thought has helped a lot of people that I’ve helped take the jump and once they’ve realized that the worst thing that can possibly happen is to end up back in the position they’re in now, that frees them from a lot of the fears of, “Will I make it? What if I fail?” It frees them from that because they know that no matter what happens, they can just walk more or less into a similar job than they already had.

Andra Zaharia: That is true! And I think that is something very helpful to use up to kind of offset some of the risks and offset some of the anxiety that this change comes with.

Matthew Woodward: It’s a mental battle. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve met that have the skill to be hugely successful business owners because once you’ve done it, you see the different skills and qualities in people and you’re like, “Why are you wasting yourself at a job? Why? Why?” And there’s a number of names running through my head right now – and they all know who they are because I’ve had the conversation with them – and they just can’t get past the mental fear to the point, you know, one guy is telling me “Yeah, but a job’s secure. Like, it’s secure! I always know how much I’m going to get paid at the end of the month!” He’s been made redundant three times in five years, and despite being made redundant three times in five years, he still has clings on to that security of a job. Whereas I look at that, like, “Wow! You’re not in control of anything. There’s no security, what are you talking about?”

Andra Zaharia: Exactly!

Matthew Woodward: And he’s a guy that would do very, very, very, very well on his own, but he can’t get past that mental block of security, even though there’s no way of rooting it into the logical real world of his experiences. So, that’s how strong the mental block can be, and I’m lucky that I didn’t have to face as much of that because I wasn’t worried about the financial side of it, but that’s a big, big, big, big fear for many, many people.

Andra Zaharia: And I believe that there are two ways to kind of offset this risk, this perceived risk, of course, because as you mentioned, there is no stability and nothing is certain, and certainly not a job, no matter how well you’re positioned in the industry or how long you’ve been with the company. I think that, besides having kind of this financial backup, just having the practice and building the habit of doing something on the side, of doing something that’s your own that kind of defines you outside of your role as work or even outside your role as a professional. I think that is so important, and so many people miss that, especially now that it’s so easy to do something that’s yours, your corner of the web and just experiment and learn.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah, and not even anything web-based. If I ever interview you, the first question I’m going to ask you is, “What is your passion?” If you struggle, if you even stutter, answering that question and you even need to think about it, you’re not getting the job because if you haven’t got a passion, that tells me a lot about the type of person that you are. I want people to breathe and live and explore, and if you’ve got a passion, that usually means you’re happy to push your comfortable boundaries, because you’re exploring that passion more. And so, I was very lucky from an early age to be told to, first of all, find what you love doing, and then find a way to make money at it. I watched a TED talk from a professional yo yo-er talking about finding what you love and finding a way to make money at it. I was like, “Wow, yeah! It’s a thing!” So, I was taught that from a young age. And whatever hobby you do on the side, even if it’s not related to online, you’ve got to have a passion, just to contribute to your own mental health, you’ve got to have something that you’re passionate about. And I don’t care if that’s dogs or building sites or whatever it is, but if you don’t have a passion for something, you’ll probably find that your work-life balance is completely wrong. But, if you have a passion for something, you force yourself to make time for that passion, and then, subsequently, for yourself and your own happiness.

Andra Zaharia: That lesson, right there, I think is so worth emphasizing, because this passion that you’re talking about, I think it comes from a mindset that’s set for growth, and from a place of curiosity and just nurturing that constantly. I think that that actually helps you understand what your passion is, because there are so many people who claim, “I don’t know exactly what I want to do”, and I get that. It happens to all of us, but the only way to actually figure it out is by trying and experimenting and seeing what works for you, what makes you grow, what makes you tick, and what gives you energy, because at the end of the day, if you’re in a job or in a role or even running a business that you don’t love, and that doesn’t give you that energy, so you can kind of reinvest it into it, that’s when you know you should make a change. And I think that your lessons here are very, very valuable.

Matthew Woodward: I’m looking at that from an employer’s perspective. Like, I don’t care what qualification or experience you’ve got, if you stutter at that question, that’s the end of it because if you haven’t got that passion, you’re not living and if you’re not living, then… Going back to the one consistent thing is humans, and I want humans in my business and I want humans that are living, not existing. There’s a difference – if you don’t know what your passion is, you’re just existing.

Andra Zaharia: So true! And speaking of consistency, there’s something that you’ve done for the past six years or so: every single month, you’ve published an income report, which I remember when I first read it – I think it was the first income report that I actually read – now I know that there are a few people who do it, but the first people who did it, I thought that that was such a refreshing and a very surprising perspective because people are never open about how much money they make, unless they want to boast about it. They don’t do it constructively as you do, and that’s changing the perception around money and around our relationship with it. I think that is so important. And I was very curious to know what kind of lessons you learned in terms of decision-making that come from this habit that you developed?

Matthew Woodward: The income reports, first of all, I didn’t really create them. The first income report I ever read, and I believe the creator of them was John Chow – who many people may not have heard of, or if they do, they might have heard of him in negative connotation – but he really paved the way for a lot of the affiliate marketing world way back when. He did a lot of good things, and he was the first guy to really prove that you can make a lot of money with a blog. And he started documenting it through income reports. So that’s where I got the inspiration to do income reports for my blog because my blog was set up as an experiment and I wanted to document the experiment and I thought the income report format was great, except I expanded a little bit and rather than just publishing income and expenses, I actually publish all the lessons of that month: this is what I did, this is how it went, this is what worked, this is what failed, this is where the traffic came from, this was the most popular content, this was where all the income came from, this is where all the expenses came from.

Andra Zaharia: So you provided a lot of context.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah, yeah. And I did that every month for six years. So, anyone who’s looking to take the leap, I mean, that documents literally from ground zero to $1.2 million – the full journey. Now, I stopped publishing the reports once it reached $1 million, because the purpose of publishing them was to track the progress of an experiment and at the point has made $1 million and won a bunch of awards – I feel like I could tick that one off. But they’re still all up there, all of the lessons are still relevant because you’re still marketing to humans at the end of it, and anyone that’s looking to get a real behind-the-scenes look of building a business online and the pains and the successes and the failures and the effort and the blood and sweat and tears and everything that goes into it, that all leaks out of those reports.

Andra Zaharia: It’s really nice!

Matthew Woodward: I’ve had so many people in the testimonials come back and be like, “They really helped me in whatever it was, to overcome this fear or solve this problem.” So, yeah, they’re a great resource, and if you start reading the first one, you’re probably going to lose the rest of your day until you’ve read them all. There’s like, 60 of them. More I think.

Andra Zaharia It’s true! And I’m definitely going to link those in the show notes, so people can actually see how your process looks like, because I’ve seen there are some key elements to great decision-making, in my opinion, and you check so many boxes of that process, which means you’ve built a habit out of documenting your process, so you can follow it, so you can track progress. You’ve also taught so many people how to think about their business, not just how to execute because executing I think comes naturally after you understand how to do something.

Matthew Woodward: You can hire someone to execute.

Andra Zaharia: Yeah, exactly! Plus, I think that one of the important things is providing this context because I think that without context we can’t really make great decisions, and getting that context means being curious and exploring and having this constant focus on what can I do and how can I push myself. And I think you asked some really great questions, generally, throughout your work – and one of them really stuck with me from your About page. You mentioned, “Always ask the question you think you already know the answer to.” Is there a specific moment where you remember that coming from or what other questions similar to this do you use when you’re making important choices?

Matthew Woodward: The two biggest things that I use to my advantage – we touched on it before – the power of observation: just sitting back and watching whatever it is, just watching, observing, looking, thinking, is really underutilized, especially in the SEO world. The second one is not assuming that I know something, even if it’s really, really what I consider basic knowledge. I never assume that I know it, even if I do know it. And I’ll ask people really basic questions, just to understand their perspective on it. It’s less about the answer and more about the perspective because once you learn the perspective, that allows you to broaden your understanding of the answer, even if it’s something really, really basic. So, I never ever assume I know the answer to anything, even if I already know the answer. And that was really, really, really ingrained to me when I was a kid – a lot younger, like 14 or 15 – and I’d been hustling and doing my thing to make money, and I’d managed to save up enough money to buy an iPod, which had just launched at that time. It was like THE thing to have – if you had an iPod you were cool.

Andra Zaharia: And that held on for so many years!

Matthew Woodward: Yeah, you were like royalty if you had an iPod because it had just come out, and the world was going mental – back then, everyone was using Napster and that was a big need, the iPod was the edge of cool if you were a nerd. So we’d spent all day driving around trying to find one, and no one had it in stock because it was the hottest item of the moment. And, eventually, we came to a store and – I was a scruffy, 15-year-old kid and ran up to a sales guy, probably looking quite desperate, asking him if they’ve got the iPod, and he kind of just looked at me and went “Yeah!” And I immediately asked him how much it was. Now, I already knew how much it was when I asked him, but he said £250 pounds and I knew that it was £350. So, at that moment, I just pulled the cash out, put it in his hand, and he counted it, and the look on his face was just like, “What? This kid just wept out a bundle of cash and put it in my hand!” And we went off to the checkout to pay for it. As we were walking to the checkout, I’m thinking, “Oh, well, what’s going to happen?” So, when they ran it through, and it came up with £350, which is £100 more than he told me – and bear in mind, I put the cash in his hand, he had the money in his hand, like he’d counted it and told me it was right, he couldn’t use that, to then say… And we had the manager over, we were arguing, and in the end, I walked out of the store with a brand new iPod, a 30% discount because the law in the UK is that, they had to follow it.

Matthew Woodward: And if using the power of observation, why did that guy make that mistake? Two reasons. First of all, he just underestimated me – he just looked at me, and just thought, “Idiot!” And then, secondly, I asked the question I already knew the answer to because he’d already branded me an idiot – so, then, I asked an idiot question. And I didn’t really plan it, I wasn’t thinking like that at the time, as a kid, but that situation taught me a lot. If you let people think you’re an idiot, you tend to see their true colors, and some people still treat you nice and some people try and lead you in whatever direction they want to lead you in. And the second one, obviously, don’t assume that you know the answer. If I just said, “I’ll take it!” and put £350 pounds in his hand it would have cost me a bunch more money.

Matthew Woodward: And, actually, that followed me in my corporate career. I was often the youngest person in the room and people often treated me like that, and treating me like I was lower. And I allowed that to happen because it was my advantage and I knew it was my advantage because of what had happened when I was younger. So, I quite often just let people assume things and just see where it goes. And you know, that comes back into the greatest way you can learn anything – just observe. Observe the people that have achieved it, observe the people that are trying to achieve it, observe whatever it is, just observe, and you learn a lot more observing than you’re going to do reading anything in my opinion.

Andra Zaharia: That’s such a lovely way to round things up!

Matthew Woodward: Yeah. Yeah, it’s highly underutilized, especially in a world of data and tools and analysis and automation – just observe.

Andra Zaharia Yes! I think the most effective things are the simplest, but you have to really, deeply understand what’s behind them, and not assume.

Matthew Woodward: Yeah. And quite often… I’ve met a bunch of rich people – granted, most of them are miserable – but the richest people, when you look at a room, you’d never know they were the richest people. They’re always the ones that you look at and you just assume that they haven’t got anything – and people blend in like that.

Andra Zaharia: Yeah, humility and modesty go a long way.

Matthew Woodward: What that means is they’ve got credit because if they’ve earned that, they’d have the humility and not be doing those kinds of things. So that’s the great lesson – don’t assume based on how someone looks, how they present themselves or anything like that. Quite often, the most intelligent person in the room is a person you don’t even look at twice. If you can play that role, you often find opportunities.

Andra Zaharia: That’s a beautiful lesson to wrap things up with, and I could talk to you for hours and I think that there’s so much you teach people – again, not just in the way of building a business but building a rewarding life and a fulfilling life, that rounds you up, just rounds you up like a human being and gives you those moments and those experiences that really have no financial value.

Matthew Woodward: People make things too complicated. Just keep it simple.

Andra Zaharia And keeping it simple, I will thank you for your time and energy Matt, and I’m looking forward to what you do next and to keep learning from you.

Matthew Woodward: Thanks very much! It’s been interesting talking about all these kinds of subjects. Usually, I’m grilled about specific SEO problems or digital marketing problems. There’s not many people talking about mindset. A mindset really underpins everything in our lives – our happiness, our success, and even our sadness. It underpins everything. So, it’s been great to see this kind of podcast. Thanks for having me on! And, yeah, I look forward to, hopefully, hearing more of your podcast in the future because it’s a subject that clearly resonates with me and there’s not enough people talking about it. So, thank you!

Andra Zaharia Oh, I appreciate your kind words so much! Thank you, Matthew!

Matthew Woodward: No problem!

When you pass up the chance to make your own decisions, you miss out on opportunities.

If you don’t make a choice, others will make it for you. This includes your family, your friends, your colleagues, the environment you live in, politicians and many others.

That’s why I believe that, to a certain extent, decisions are about control.

But I don’t mean control over others, because that’s about ego. I’m talking about control over your own actions, which entails discipline and self-awareness.

Think about it:

Who made the most important decisions that influenced you decisively in the past 6 months?

The value of taking ownership

People who make a difference, the builders, the doers, the changers – they embrace responsibility.

They take charge even if they’re not experts and the challenge at hand scares them.

They’re ready to learn at any given moment because they’ve tamed their ego and don’t hide behind “I’m too good for this”.

They see an opportunity to build and change when others would rather lay back or step back.

They’re also not afraid to fail because it might make them look bad.

Here are five of these people who inspire me:

• Stephanie Hurlburt
• Scott Berkun
• Matt Haig
• Cristina Chipurici
• Rand Fishkin

People like us do things like this*

People like them are generous and empathetic because they see beyond the surface. They know the challenges others face because they’re deeply, and sometimes painfully aware, of their own.

So, they help. They write, speak, build, teach, design, code, inspire, lead and change.

They’re not perfec. They know it and show it often. They learn constantly, improving bit by bit, like a runner training for her first marathon.

So what is it about these people that makes others follow their work and advice to better their judgement and lives?

I can’t speak for others, so I’ll stick to my own experience. I want to be someone like this because it makes life richer, more rewarding and simply happier.

——

*Seth Godin came up with the phrase: “People like us do things like this” and I’ve made it my mantra. I used it to change my perspective when things get tough or complex, to stick to my principles fiercely. Plus, it’s increased my sense of community, my connectedness to like-minded people all over the world. Most of all, it raised the bar higher, motivating me to do better and become better in every way I can.

People like us read about things like these.

Accountability builds confidence

I hate how “responsibility” has a bad reputation for so many. To me, it’s shouldn’t be a weight on anyone’s shoulders, but rather a recognition of another person’s ability to use her/his skills and knowledge to make something out of nothing.

Decision-making is based on intent. When you set a course of action, you’re making something happen. You pick your next job, your next project, your next challenge. At the end of it, you come out a bit better, no matter the outcome.

Just think about the toughest thing you’ve had to do in the last few months. Maybe it was a complex project at work or a life-changing personal decision.

In hindsight, doesn’t it make you feel like you’re better equipped to deal with something a bit more difficult?

That’s because what you mastered is now in your circle of control.

Past challenges, such as moving to a management role, hiring people, training a team, have helped me discover what I’m made of. I’m glad I said yes even when it twisted my stomach in a knot.

Like all great things, this sounds simple but it’s not.

Keep this in mind: use the chance to make a decision or lose it. Others will decide for you.

If you want to start practicing, here’s a helpful decision-making journal template to help you get started.

So, who is making YOUR decisions?

Most likely. It sure messes with my own process from time to time, but not like it used to.

I decided I needed to do something about it when I began having trouble sleeping. I’d wake up around 4 or 5 am for no reason and I just couldn’t go back to sleep. What kept me up was the whirlwind of thoughts that washed over me.

All the things I didn’t do in time, the challenges I felt unprepared for, my endless to-do lists, the relationships I sincerely wanted to invest more time in – they all created a vortex that sucked in my energy and any chance of relaxing.

Feeling anxious and overwhelmed at 5 am is not the way I wanted my days to start.

So I tried using framing to cope with this. I decided to pick up a book and read when I experienced these insomnia episodes. It helped a bit and sometimes I managed to fall back asleep.

But I was ignoring the bigger, underlying issue: how FOMO (the Fear Of Missing Out) was messing up my sleep and days because I let it.

Training my response to triggers

Taming the urge for instant gratification can be a bigger challenge than expected. However, it’s also easier than expected once you get started.

As a member of the last generation before the Internet, I distinctly remember the sense of freedom and clarity that came with the minimal FOMO I experienced during high school or even college.

I felt bad for missing a movie I wanted to see on TV for 5 minutes and then completely forgot about it. There was no sign of pervasive anxiety because of that because I only rarely felt this.

It hasn’t even been that long since the Internet – and social media especially – have shaped our information-processing habits by pushing all our hot buttons a zillion times a day.

So what did I actually do about it?

1. Acknowledge the problem

I read The Shallows: What the Internet Is Doing to Our Brains to gain a deeper understanding of what the issue is. As it turns out, FOMO can alter our brain’s physical structure so that it responds faster to emotional triggers.

The book depicts how this happens and how it screws up our brain, turning it into a shallow pond.

As Nicholas Carr, the author puts it:

“Once I was a scuba diver in a sea of words. Now I zip along the surface like a guy on a Jet Ski.”

I decided I wanted to be the scuba diver, exploring the depths of what life and focus have to offer, even it meant missing out on all the seemingly cool jet skiing.

So I acted on it.

2. Give up (some) social media

The best thing I did in the past years is to uninstall Facebook from my phone and then delete my account. I’d had it on and off throughout 2017 and 2018, but I finally decided to delete it altogether on September 1st 2018 and I never looked back.

The second best thing I did was to uninstall Instagram too and take a break from it for almost 2 years.

In December 2017, I frequently caught myself checking Instagram and mindlessly scrolling. My feed was full of great stuff like cats and puppies, books and amazing places, but it still felt like a huge waste of time (because it was). It also fuelled my toxic tendency to compare myself to others, which was a mental and emotional burden I didn’t want.

So I set my Instagram account to private and forgot about it. It was such a great thing!

I’ve come back to it after almost 2 years, unfollowed almost everyone, and limited my time spent on it to 10 minutes/day. I’m now in a much better place that allows me to control how I use social media based on a deeper understanding of my own needs and goals (from personal growth to just having some fun laughing at silly corgis).

Mind you, I haven’t given up social media altogether. I still love using Twitter (@ me anytime!) and check LinkedIn daily. On the plus side, I’ve automated some of my posts by using Buffer so I can focus on building meaningful relationships instead.

My mind has been a lot more peaceful since I’ve done this and my FOMO has died down considerably since then. And, honestly, I don’t miss any of it as much as to want it back. No, not even the cats and puppies. I have more time for my own fluffball.

3. Practice delayed gratification

Curing or at least minimizing FOMO is a great way to strengthen the decision-making muscle. Resisting temptation takes a conscious choice to give up immediate rewards in favor of long-term gratification.

Studies have proved that the kids who resisted temptation during the marshmallow test (video) developed better in life.

“Specifically, when these children became adolescents, their parents rated them as more academically and socially competent, verbally fluent, rational, attentive, planful, and able to deal well with frustration and stress.”

Who doesn’t want that? The next time you’re dealing with FOMO, ask yourself what you’re looking to achieve and if getting what you (think) you want on the spot is the better deal.

This exercise has worked for me and continues to do so on a daily basis.

4. Have an untouchable day

This is the next step for me: to set a day during the weekend where I don’t touch any social media channel, not check my emails, not work on anything specific.

I ran into the idea in an article that talks about planning untouchable days for deeply immersing yourself into practicing your craft.

My take on it may be a bit different, but I truly believe it would make a huge difference in my life.

I’ve decided to start small:

• get up on Sunday morning with Wi-fi and the data connection on my phone cut off
• ditch all the devices for at least half a day to start with (maybe turn off the router and give it a much-deserved break)
• practice mindfulness and focus on what’s going on around me without thinking 5 steps ahead.

Can I just hit pause on everything for at least half a day?

I really think it’s doable, especially now that I’ve incorporated daily journaling and reading before I do anything else in the morning. My mind is clearer, calmer, and more focused already. Now it’s a matter of slowly and steadily layering more healthy habits on top of that.

Kicking FOMO out of your life

When you don’t make decisions as a response to outside triggers and when you don’t let the need for instant gratification to cloud your judgment, your choices improve.

If you’ve ever experienced the same anxiety, here are two guides you can use right now: one for work and one for, well, life. The second one is really great and I’ve used many of the tools and tactics included in it.

Plus, as it turns out, knowing too little of what’s going on in the media or on the Internet won’t kill you. This guy is proof.

Put your phone down after you read this* and enjoy the day!

*Heck, why just not read it at all and just enjoy the day? I’m rooting for you here!

Changing jobs is not an easy job!

After 3 years (that felt like 6 because they were so intense – in a good way), the opportunity to take on another role meant I had to face a difficult decision.

I had to choose between:

• a job I loved and challenged me, in a team I truly cared about;
• and the chance to take on a new role that would push me to grow even faster, in a more focused direction, within a team that didn’t know me.

Sometimes, an opportunity that comes out of the blue can make the decision more difficult. The surprise factor means you now have a big decision on your hands when you didn’t ask for. No matter what you decide, it’s a choice you have to make and live with.

Changing jobs is one of the most difficult decisions because it ties into so many key aspects of our lives:

• financial stability
• professional growth
• our sense of self-worth
• our desire to fit in and be accepted, etc.

Changing jobs: Comfortable certainty vs. the risky unknown

This is what makes us anxious about this particular choice.

Common knowledge argues that dealing with the devil you know is easier. However, that doesn’t mean it’s better for you in the long run.

In the interviews I’ve held over the past years as a manager (around 50), I’ve seen people dealing with all sorts of challenges.

• Even though they were actively searching for a job, some were unsure of what they want to achieve.
• Others were scarred by their most recent experience and were too defensive to own up to what they wanted to achieve.
• A few even backed down after applying for undisclosed reasons.
• And I even saw one or two people use the job opportunity to increase their salary in their current workplace.

I’ve gone through these stages myself (except for the last two) and I get it. Changing jobs and interviewing make us feel vulnerable and exposed.

But there’s another way to look at it.

The best interviews I had, both as the applicant and the employer, were friendly talks. We truly connected because each of us opened up and really talked about what we could achieve together. We honestly discussed what we wanted to learn, what the challenges were, what got us excited and what put us down about the role or work environment.

While most interviews were emotionally draining for me (being an introvert 79% of the time), these particular talks fueled me for days!

I believe that’s because we both saw the interview as an opportunity to get to know each other and understand if we align on the same values.

It was not just about that job, that role, that specific moment in time. We were both interested to see how this opportunity would shape us as humans, not just as employees.

Personal experience and watching close friends and other people I look up to prove that constantly pushing ourselves to deal with uncertainty helps us grow faster and achieve more in the long run.

So I encourage you to be vulnerable, open and transparent about your expectations and fears the next time you interview for a job.

To help, I gathered some questions to help you muster up the courage.

Big decisions need powerful resources

This is why I chose two books to recommend instead of articles this week.

The Art of Possibility is one of those books whose knowledge came at the right time to make a huge impact for me. It helped me change the way I make decisions by building a more resilient mindset and focusing on solutions and opportunities.

Here’s a sample:

“When you are oriented to abundance, you care less about being in control, and you take more risks. You may give away short-term profits in pursuit of a bigger dream; you may take a long view without being able to predict the outcome. In the measurement world, you set a goal and strive for it. In the universe of possibility, you set the context and let life unfold.”

Ego is the Enemy is another favorite that’s helped me become a better colleague and young manager over the past 2 years.

I filled pages with notes from the book to keep myself aware of the dangers of letting my ego get in the way of decision-making and life in general.

“The power of being a student if not just that it is an extended period of instruction, it also places the ego and ambition in someone else’s hands. There is a sort of ego ceiling imposed – one knows that he is not better than the “master” he apprentices under. Not even close.”

I hope these books will be as useful for you as they were for me. If you read them, I’d love to hear if they helped you in any way.

With so many options at every step – for work, friends, relationships, learning, entertainment – it can be draining to figure out what the best choices are.

Josh Garofalo shares how he set up a personal system to achieve clarity, focus, and growth.
As a fellow freelancer, Josh also talks about the creativity, continuous learning, and discipline required to thrive in this exponentially developing space.

Listen to this episode to learn:

• The value of contexts where you can make an exponential (instead of an incremental) impact
• How to avoid high-risk decisions by making small, strategic decisions
• Ways to manage the impact of social media on your own happiness and productivity
• How to accelerate self-growth with personal experiments
• The compound interest of lifelong learning

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• Choosing a niche – as freelancers, we tend to chase every job in our field and get our hands on as many projects as we can. However, choosing a specialty and finding projects within that niche can – more often than not – give us the advantage we need to thrive in this world. This is a great piece of advice that many freelancers know but very few implement.
• Tiny hops versus big leaps – when it comes to business, creating a long-term strategy brings greater benefits than thinking short-term. When we have the big picture in place, it’s important to take small steps toward our vision and not rush into making big decisions. The compound effect of these tiny hops and changes, done over a long period of time, can offer a safe space for us to evolve.
• Keep learning when everyone else has stopped – being curious is a trait that a lot of us have, but sometimes we get lost in the adulthood trap, becoming too busy to feed our curiosities. Learning new things, studying not necessarily knowing exactly how it’s going to contribute to our life, may give us the edge in unexpected ways.

When it comes to business, the decisions are always small and very methodical. I would call them little tiny hops, versus big leaps. [30:24 – 30:34]

About Josh Garofalo:

Josh is a SaaS Copywriter and the founder of Sway Copy.

He began writing copy for a B2B SaaS startup and that inspired him to start a career as a freelancer and choosing this particular niche.

He helped clients such as HubSpot or AWeber get more leads and sales. Josh’s main focus is to deliver great value in as little time as possible.

Key discussion points:

01:54 – What Josh turns his attention to, business-wise, at the moment
05:20 – Josh’s background in freelancing
09:14 – Choosing a niche in your field can separate you from the crowd
15:08 – The importance of learning statistics and doing academic research
25:41 – A cheat code to be more efficient in delivering a great project
33:18 – Making and breaking habits – be careful where you get your dopamine rush from
44:35 – Finding the balance between gratitude for what you have right now and being ambitious about your future plans
49:03 – Consistency is one of the key habits that helps people thrive
52:24 – Josh’s energy sources

Connect with Josh:

• Sway Copy website
• LinkedIn
• Twitter

Resources mentioned in the episode:

• Joanna Wiebe – Copyhackers
• Louis Grenier – Everyone Hates Marketers (let’s change that!)
• HDYK #15: Build life-changing habits (with Cristina Chipurici)

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Noticing what gets us through difficult times and transformative events is the first step in building a superpower.

I see this superpower as the ability to create and use a system of rewards to keep you going when the going gets tough.

It was Irina who got me thinking about this topic when she mentioned one of the things that she realized about herself during the course of a difficult transition. She observed that she needs an objective, a milestone to reach in order to power through difficult moments. Irina revealed that anticipating the reward she’ll get once she accomplishes what she set out to do is a powerful for motivator for her.

Maybe it can work for you too. It’s certainly something that sparked this important question:

How can I include some rewards in my plan for next year to get me going through the busiest months of the year?

I’m talking about including holidays, concerts, dancing classes, Greek language lessons, and other experiences into my roadmap for next year. (Yup, I’m making a roadmap for myself to avoid overworking and make more time for personal projects.)

Discover your areas of confidence

I think it’s serendipitous that this episode is the last one of 2019 because the topic of preparedness is on everyone’s mind this time of year.

From cleaning our houses to sifting through our stuff to get rid of the surplus, from spending some time with friends and family to planning for 2020, we have all these opportunities to reflect, a chance to internalize important realizations about ourselves.

Here’s another candid example from Irina:

I’m not confident in all aspects of my life but I’m confident in my ability to make a decision that’s good for myself.

Her perspective inspired me to define my own areas of confidence, like circling words in a word finder game. Personally, I’ve found that only when I allow myself to be confident in things I’m good at is when I enjoy them a lot more!

These are just two of the things that this podcast episode nudged me to think deeply about. I’m really curious what you take from it.

Listen to this episode to learn:

• How to get comfortable with a foreign place after you’ve decided to move your life there
• How to get along with foreign co-workers and leaders and how to build real relationships
• Ways to defeat challenges you didn’t anticipate by making mindful choices
• How commitment helps you to focus only on your most important decision: making it work
• The importance of making connections with foreigners so you can decide with a richer context.

Why committing to making a decision work is so powerful

Irina Nica is a great marketer, doing top-notch work in her role as Senior Marketing Manager at HubSpot. Currently, her focus is managing the Hubspot community and the influencer relations that are part of their global marketing strategy.

If you’re keen to explore her work, start with her presentation on How to build an influencer marketing program:

One of the reasons I was eager to her on the show is her unique vantage point.

She works in Hubspot’s international team, which puts her at the crossroads of a complex decision-making process.

Irina is also someone who moved countries at 30 and built a new life in a new city while adjusting to a new role.

That packs many simultaneous changes to adjust to!

How to survive a period of multiple important changes

As we can both imagine, she experienced difficult moments, which she candidly shares, along with the lessons she took from them.

During our conversation, she often mentions commitment and how it helped her to narrow her options to just one: making it work.

Moving to Dublin to work at Hubspot gave her the elements she needed to persevere: a worthy objective to pursue and the commitment to overcome obstacles in that pursuit.

The job became an anchor and she immersed herself in this cultural context, both at work and outside of it.

She started by asking herself:

“What’s the worst that can happen?”

The answer was not life-threatening nor permanent, so the challenge became more approachable.

“What’s the worst that can happen?” is one of the most useful questions we should ask ourselves more often. You can explore 99 questions to help you make better decisions to get your started.

There are a lot more interesting topics that Irina surfaces during our conversation, so enjoy the whole thing!

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• When you’re looking for a change and someone gives you the opportunity, take it.
• Instead of giving up, try to anchor yourself in reality, even if it’s new and different for you.
• A good colleague will always show their empathy and compassion when a difficult situation emerges.
• Sometimes, the pressure of new circumstances is too much to handle. We need the reassurance of the manager who says “Look, it’s alright to fail. Just experiment, play around, be curious!”
• Anticipating the outcomes can help you get through the painful parts.

About Irina Nica:

The moment when Irina looks back, she sees an adventurous woman who takes risks and doesn’t always think twice about possible consequences. This is partly what fuelled her decision to move her life to Dublin. She uncovered a new lifestyle there which came with the new job, new responsibilities, and new smiling faces that changed her mindset. But most of all, it came with learning about how important self-care is, not only for a healthy life but for a growing career as well.

Irina is candid about not being confident in all aspects of her life but also about trusting herself to make the best decisions for her life and career.

This is how she built her way to becoming Senior Marketing Manager at HubSpot.

Through hard work and perseverance, Irina not only elevated his skills and know-how, but also her life in Dublin – by nurturing meaningful relationships and anchoring herself in the city’s bustling life.

Moving to a different country is a huge decision and Irina’s perspective on what works to make this shift smoother and less stressful is illuminating!

Connect with Irina:

• LinkedIn
• Twitter

Resources mentioned in the episode:

• The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg
• Invisibilia podcast
• Invisibilia Season 2: Changing Social Norms Could Save Your Life
• Predictably Irrational: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions by Dan Ariely

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Have you looked back at how your year unfolds to see if you can find a pattern in terms of dynamics?

Did you notice any particular sequence that takes up more of your resources? (Besides the usual summer and winter vacations.)

I’ve been doing this for the better part of the last decade because – after a few burnouts – I needed to figure out how to manage my energy throughout the year so I don’t revert to the same pattern.

It immediately became clear to me that the richest part of the year in terms of experiences was October-November. It’s also the most demanding time of the year, a challenge I eagerly await and prepare for, both mentally and physically.

Why are these months so intense, you ask?

Because I usually attend or work for three conferences (DefCamp, GPeC Summit, and How to Web). And then there are the unexpected opportunities that pop up, giving the chance to explore new avenues for inspiration and reflection.

Such an opportunity was the invitation I got to attend the IAA Global Conference in Bucharest this past October.

What made this event particularly valuable and intriguing was the line-up of speakers comprising of some of the most bold thinkers and creators across disciplines such as advertising, design, and tech.

Throughout the event, I felt deeply connected to the speakers on stage, who really gave their best and shared insights generously.

Their stories – rich in nuance – centered around the deeply human nature of creativity and the transformations it’s undergoing.

This is an essential topic not just for any communication professional (myself included) but for anyone who wants to build a business that can stand the test of time. Advertising, marketing, design, tech innovation – no matter the industry, creativity is an indispensable element of the human experience.

The challenge today is to retain this elusive ability to capture and materialize creativity in a world that’s increasingly driven by data.

Here are some of the key takeaways that have stayed with weeks after the event, inspiring me to ponder on my role in cultivating creativity as an important part of my role.

“Claim imperfection”

BRUNO BERTELLI, a world-class creative with an impressive list of achievements, talked about differentiation and creativity in a me-too market where brands tend to follow the same formulas.

With his team at Publicis Worldwide, Bruno aims to make people around the world by surprise. giving them new ways to see things.

You may recall their 2017 award-winning Diesel campaign, Go With The Flaw, where they challenged long-held beliefs about perfection in fashion:

This ad campaign clicked with generations of people who crave diversity, representation, and freedom of expression, paving the way for a new communication platform for the fashion brand.

Last year, they took it a step further, opening a knock-off store with real Diesel items that had just a little flaw on the label:

It’s new ways to look at the world like this that make my mind connect the dots in different ways and it’s the work of people like Bruno that remind the world how desperately we need creativity to live a rich, rewarding life.

“We must be careful not to become numbers and lose our humanity”

The star guest JACQUES SÉGUÉLA was a mind-blowing presence on stage at the IAA Global Conference in Bucharest.

At 85 years old, Mr. Séguéla is a living legend. He has used his particular set of skills and the wisdom he cultivated to reach the pinnacle of performance in journalism, advertising, TV production, and book publishing, amonth many others.

When I was just 1 year old (and people still loved advertising), Mr. Séguéla was crafting fantastic advertising campaigns like this one:

Imagine the magnitude of this production! It was almost unheard of at the time, something we might forget now that we drone and VR everything (and often come up with nothing that makes a lasting impact).

The incredible Mr. Séguéla cautioned against letting our creativity be guided exclusively by data:

“We must be careful not to become numbers and lose our humanity.”

He also reminded us that “courage is the driving force of creativity” and to never underestimate the power of a great story, as one of his ads highlights:

“Technology must remain a tool!” is the reminder he passionately uttered on stage.

What made me take this reminder to heart more than usual was the example Mr. Séguéla set by living a rich life and enriching others’ through his work.

For example, at 45, he published his first book about his career: “Do not tell my mother that I am working in advertising, she thinks I am a pianist in a brothel.” I’m super excited to get my hands on it!

If you’re curious to learn more about this fascinating human, you’re in luck! The IAA conference organizers published the Mr. Séguéla’s full talk:

“AI is reducing our participation to the creative process”

As you can tell by now, there was no shortage of impressive speakers at this event but one made a big impact on me in a way I didn’t expect.

I’d read KARIM RASHID‘s book, Design Your Self: Rethinking the Way You Live, Love, Work, and Play, a few years back and I remember a few key ideas stuck with me.

Meeting authors of books I deeply enjoyed is one of the experiences I most appreciate in life. It feels almost like an out-of-body experience because of how unlikely it is for something like to happen.

So when I was presented with the opportunity to attend a press briefing with Karim Rashid, you best believe I didn’t waste it!

What struck me about him was his incredible openness, his ability to be present, to connect on a deeper, human level, and to be vulnerable in a foreign setting, with people he’d never met before.

His outlandish style intimidated me but as soon as he started talking I understood that there’s no wall, no distance between him and us. There is not a carefully built persona. Karim Rashid is an authentic, candid human being eager to experience every moment and contribute to making it memorable.

During the press briefing, we got to ask him a few questions and the answers we got exceeded any expectation!

You expect someone like Karim Rashid to hold contrarian views about trends that tend to breed uniformity but his comments on them came from a place of curiosity and honest desire to improve, not from a place of negativity.

I found it interesting to see how aesthetic trends (in fashion, photography, design, etc.) encourage uniformity because they’re amplified and distributed incredibly fast by the digital world. Just take a look at your Instagram feed and you’ll notice what I mean.

“But this is not the first time in history this is happening”, you might argue. Correct!

Karim Rashid exemplified what internationalism in design means by point to the Bauhaus buildings in Tel Aviv, showing how far from Germany the design movement had travelled in the early 1900s.

In this context, the visionary designer emphasized the dire need for differentiation that brands acutely experience.

As humans, we crave diversity. And, for a long time, we’ve had plenty of it.

“Just think about tourism”, Karim Rashid urged our little group.

“Nature differentiates in tourism. Architecture differentiates up to a point. Music used to differentiate.”

He continued to show how these elements – with the exception of nature – are beginning to lose their uniqueness as popular trends encourages me too behaviors.

As a content creator, this prompted me to pay closer attention to the type of work I create and it also gave me the courage to be a bit bolder in my approach.

Since this is such an important interest of mine, I had to ask Karim Rashid about his decision-making process. He said intuition is the red thread that connects his choices because it encompasses all of his experience.

“You need to follow your intuition and allow the subconscious to breathe through.”

He also mentioned something that we need to become increasingly aware of:

“AI is reducing our participation in the creative process.”

Mind you, creative luminaries like Karim Rashid are not against technology. Their critical thinking process is something to learn from because they see the far-reaching implications of day to day actions in a way that allows them to peer into potential futures.

In my view, these are great opportunities to explore various options ourselves and make an effort to see what our current decisions might amount to. This is how we can cultivate creative thinking and there’s never been a better moment in history to do it.

“In the era of the individual, we’re empowered to create as never before.”

Karim Rashid reminded us that society has been pushing the idea of mass for thousands of years. Now there’s a shift towards individualism which brings about changes in many aspects of our lives.

That’s why…

“We need to let go of the past.”

Many of his thoughtful observations were centered around time and I know for a fact that we all skipped a beat when he shared he had battled cancer.

“We live in a temporary world, where we loan everything.”

As a result, the most prized luxury in the world right now is TIME. When we consume, we seek out seamless experiences because we’re hungry for more time to do more, to experience more, to live more, to create more.

Meeting Karim Rashid was an extraordinary opportunity, one that reopened a door I eagerly opened to explore new ways of looking at the world*.

*which I believe is one of the most valuable gifts we can give each other as humans.

“Look at your ideas and question them from different angles”

The day ended with a mind-bending fireside chat between BBC World News Presenter Kasia Madera and co-founder and former Board Director of Shazam CHRIS BARTON.

The following hour was a series of gripping stories about what it took to build one of the most used and loved music apps in the world.

Tapping our phone’s screen to discover the name of a song we really love is such a simple and natural behavior that we don’t even think about the massive, incredible effort it took to build it.

So stick with me while I share a few fascinating details.

When they were building Shazam, there was no search engine or data base to rely on. This was 2001 and Google had been launched in 1998.

To start adding songs to their data base, Shazam partnered with a local records store. A physical record store that is. That meant they had to put i thousands of CDs into the system manually.

To do it, they hired 15-20 18-year olds who worked in 3 shifts to get it done.

The level of creative thinking specific to (some) startups is admirable, on one condition (in my experience): that the passion that drives the team is tied to a bigger goal than making money fast.

Chasing a get-rich-fast scheme was the exact opposite of what they were doing at Shazam, since the company has been 18 years in the making and they struggled for years to bring the product to the level we see it now.

Here’s another story that amazed me.

The Shazam team worked with Stanford PHDs to create an algorithm capable of capturing the music and separating it from background noise. Building AI in the in the early ’00s was anything but easy.

The challenge was massive because phones are designed to boost human voices, not surrounding sounds. So a lot of work went into figuring out how to extract the music so it could be matched with an item in the database.

Initially, to use Shazam, you’d call a dedicated number, hold the phone out for 30 seconds, and hang up. Once a match was found, you’d receive an SMS with the songs’s name.

How wild does that sound compared to the experience of using Shazam we know?

If you’re curious to dig deeper, don’t miss the chance to watch the full interview, generously shared by the IAA team:

https://youtu.be/8uLBLUT4HlQ

Because we also had a brief press session with Chris Barton after the IAA Global Conference wrapped up, I asked him how he cultivates focus, given his incredible experience and far-reaching responsibilities. (While involved in developing Shazam, Chris also worked 8 years at Google and at Dropbox, pouring a large part of his earnings into the company.)

Chris mentioned he work with moderated focus. He enjoys working with limited resources – which is how Shazam was built, which allows him to “see other opportunities but avoid chasing the shiny object.”

His advice for startup founders or doers of any type builds on this particular challenge:

“Think of what you can with the least possible amount of money.”

In a world where extremes are framed as the most appealing directions to pursue, wiser, more balanced approaches like Chris’ deserve more visibility and recognition.

5 lessons learned from spending the day learning from these creative luminaries

1. Creativity is highly dependent on your level of self-awareness and the strength of your desire to understand human nature.

2. Creativity requires courage. Courage stems from our search for meaning. Don’t let the effort that goes into dealing with uncertainty discourage you from pursuing your search from meaning and creativity.

3. Following your intuition sometimes leads to the best decisions (a belief I’ve found more than one of my podcast guests have).

4. Cultivate moderated focus to help you see other opportunities but to keep you from constantly chasing the shiny object.

If you get the opportunity to step outside your circle, DO IT

This year’s Global IAA Conference reminded me of the importance of breaking out of my bubble (tech, cybersecurity, startups) to explore world views that upgrade my experience of life.

I can’t wait to see how the IAA team will inspire us in 2020!

Throughout my childhood and teenage years, I despised tradition.

Every other holiday came with the pressure of getting together with relatives and checking all the boxes: excessive food, excessive conversation, and an unhealthy focus on other people’s opinions.

It took me a while to break my reflex of immediately associating tradition with social and emotional pressure.

The biggest change happened when I decided to start my own traditions, like the article I now write each year for my birthday. I started doing it at 30, continued at 31, and now I’ve reached the third “episode” of the series.

This year has been especially eventful with losing my beloved grandmother, working to build my freelancing business, celebrating two of my best friends’ wedding, and everything in between. It had a few very powerful highs and lows but, at the end of the day, I managed to find a stronger balance, something I’m very grateful for.

It really helps me to sit down and reflect on the past year and the new lessons I learned along the way. The habit of pondering on everything from how I do my work to the type of relationships I choose to engage in has had a BIG positive impact on me. I’ve improved my clarity of thought, avoided bad decisions, and gained the ability to internalize wins and finally enjoy them.

So here’s where I stand at 32, peering into the next year with curiosity and a stronger sense of self identity.

If you’d rather listen than read, I’ve created an audio version of this article that also packs some extra bits and pieces, not originally included.

1. Cultivate an identity outside of your work roles

This is one of the things I’ve been talking about consistently in the last few years in one to one sessions with my former teams, with friends or people I sometimes mentor.

I did this without planning, when I started a blog, 11 years ago. The moment I started creating content for myself, whether it was on the blog, on Twitter, LinkedIn or anywhere else, that’s when I started to build a recognizable identity that wasn’t tied to a specific job.

Of course, the jobs I had in the past 12 years helped strengthen this identity, opening up new opportunities to cultivate my interests, skills, and mindset. But I never stuck to just doing the work… at work.

I constantly put in hundreds of hours in personal projects where I had the freedom to create and experiment with concepts and tools:

• a blog
• volunteering
• a newsletter
• a podcast
• participating in organizing events
• being an active contributor to various communities, etc.

If there’s one thing I regret is that I didn’t go about cultivating this identity more intently, with a plan and some goals. I think it would’ve helped me make progress faster but, at the same time, I fear it might have felt like work instead of something fun, challenging, and rewarding. So maybe it’s better than I went with the flow.

Resource: Shoulda. Woulda. Coulda. Sunk costs.

2. For better mental health, don’t tie your identity to your work

This was a big and tough one for me.

While I knew that where worked or what I worked on at any point in time didn’t represent my entire identity, it was difficult for me to find strong anchors outside the professional things I did.

This year I had a breakthrough while working with Andrei Rosca, a fantastic coach (more on that below). He taught me some ways to cultivate as strong of a sense of achievement from personal accomplishments as I did from professional ones.

Resource: In the same context, I also remembered of the importance of acknowledging the emotional labor I do and that it’s part of my efforts.

This has become a strong source of balance for me.

3. “Know your value. Respect your value. Cultivate your value.”

This was a key takeaway of mind from Merry Miller’s speech at the kick-off event for the StepFWD pre-accelerator.

The representative of the US Embassy in Bucharest gave an incredibly inspiring talk about the first struggles for gender diversity in tech and other male-dominated sectors.

She emphasized the fundamental role of cultivating a balanced sense of self-worth. She discussed this in the context of a growth mindset, in which “value” is cultivated through constant practice, feedback, and improvement.

Resource: For a broader and deeper understanding of the topic, I recommend Carol Dweck’s book, “Mindset“, one of my top reads for 2019.

4. (You can) Get rid of your anxiety

Another massive breakthrough I had this year was managing my anxiety and, ultimately, drastically reducing it.

It happened when I worked on it with Andrei Rosca, the coach I mentioned previously.

Here’s a bit of background to explain why this was so important.

I’d had had about two dozen therapy sessions before working with Andrei. While they helped me cultivate a sense of self-awareness and accelerate self-growth, the sessions didn’t have a more definitive impact. I regained balance for a few weeks but, when push came to shove, I’d experience the same anxiety levels as before.

When I started my coaching sessions with Andrei, he gave me fantastic tools to work with on my anxiety, fears, and other issues I wanted to overcome.

One of our most valuable talks was around managing anxiety. That’s when Andrei showed me an exercise created by David D. Burns that literally changed my life. It helped me reduce my anxiety from 90% to about 10% which blew my mind!

It took me a while to realize that I could help myself this way. I continued to repeat the exercise until it became a mental habit. Now, I use it whenever I need to evaluate situations and my reaction to them in a way that’s fundamentally better and healthier for me.

Andrei also taught me how to set up systems around me that would reduce my decision fatigue and avoid overworking to avoid triggering anxious reactions. They worked incredibly well for me and still do, months later!

If you’re struggling with anxiety, please know it’s something you can get under control and, ultimately, get rid of. It’s important to find the right person who can guide and support you through this process.

Resource: Get to know David Burns’ work in this thought-provoking interview for Stanford Mag.

5. (You can) Relieve some of the pressure

These small achievements piled on top of each other this year. I can really feel the compound effect of the effort I put into working on myself.

Along with my anxiety, I also worked on some childhood issues (gotta love those!) that I finally managed to get much-needed clarity on.

With a stronger understanding of what is in my circle of control and what’s outside of it, I started to relieve some of the pressure I’ve been putting on myself since… forever.

I gave myself permission to enjoy the ability I now have to adjust my schedule as I want to. I also gave myself permission to not feel bad when I say “no” to something, instead of saying “yes” and ending up depleted as a consequence.

It’s been truly liberating and it’s freed my mind for better, more nurturing thoughts.

I still have a lot to improve on but now I have a healthier way of doing it which makes all. The. Difference.

6. Work on your habits

Two of the things that have played an instrumental role in my growth this year are:

1. working on my eating habits with Carmen Albisteanu, an experienced food coach
2. and starting running with 321sport.

I started tracking everything I eat with MyFitnessPal again and the 118 days streak* helped me turn this into the habit of making wiser choices.

Carmen’s guidance and tested-in-the-real-world insights made a huge difference! She gently reminded me of healthy, nutritious options and, most of all, helped me work on some of the issues in my perspective on food and its role in my life.

To that I added running starting this July. My best friends are runners (Cristina, Alex, Ergo, Carmen, Dan) and they served as inspiration to get started (which then turned into support once I did).

The 321sport community was also instrumental in making running a fun experience where you got to connect with good people. It’s the first time I feel I’m part of a sports team and I’m thankful I get to make this an important part of my life.

Good, healthy habits are powerful anchors during times of deep, fast transformation, the likes of which we’re living now. I feel I’ve barely scratched the surface of what I can achieve if I improve my habits so I’m going to keep investing time and energy in strengthening them.

Resource: If you’re interested in learning more about habits, I recommend Charles Duhigg’s “The Power of Habit“, a book I picked up from Cristina that I absolutely loved!

There’s another aspect to these two habits too.

*Cristina is my hero with a streak of over 1300 days!

7. Question your reactions and beliefs – from serious back problems to running

I never thought I’d like running or ever call myself a runner. But here I am, 70km in total later, able to run 4km without stopping and actually enjoy it!

It may not sound like much but for me it’s an achievement I’m really happy with.

Quick background: in 2015 I threw my back out after 7 months of cross-fit. It was caused by a combination of factors which I wrote about on my Romanian blog. One of the things the doctors told me then is that I was, under no circumstance, to run or do any high-impact activities. They told me I had a herniated disc and that I should go through mandatory physical therapy to keep the disc from getting more damaged.

I did that and tried a few more things but it felt limiting the entire time. I’ll share the whole story in an article dedicated to this topic.

Fast forward to 2019, when I said I wanted to start running. I took precautions, starting slow and making an appointment with a knowledgeable doctor to see if it would be a healthy choice both in the short and long term.

After a fresh MRI and an examination with a great, experienced podiatrist, I found out that my back was in a much better shape than previous doctors had told me.

Indeed, there are some protrusions but they can’t be called a hernia. I can run, not long-distance, but up to 10km/day without the risk of damaging my spine.

Naturally, I have to do other things to keep my back strong, so it can support my spine’s health but I have more freedom to move than I initially thought. That and no excuse to lean on if I get lazy.

I wanted to share the summary of this story because I believe it can help others. Always keep your mind open to doing things differently, to questioning the status quo. For some issues, you should seek better answers.

8. Harness the power of accountability

One of the very best habits I picked up in 2019 has been doing a monthly accountability meeting with two of my closest friends.

Cristina wrote about our accountability meetings, outlining how they work.

Having someone to keep me accountable for the commitments I made to myself and others really improved my decision-making. Having these deep, thoughtful conversations helped me take on less work (and avoid being overwhelmed), say no to a proposal that would’ve been bad for me, and generally make wiser choices.

We also made it a habit to celebrate achievements big and small in these meetings, reminding one another of the work and heart we put into everything we do.

This process has had a huge positive impact on me, making me really glad we decided to start having these meetings.

9. Do all the uncomfortable things that come with being your own boss

Looking back at how I managed myself over the years, it’s blatantly obvious I’ve never really been a good boss for myself. I overworked myself, put too much pressure on myself to be great at everything, take care of everyone, and make sure things run smoothly in whatever circumstance.

When I started freelancing, I had the tendency to do the same, especially since I had a new business that depended solely on myself. For the first 6 months of 2019 I worked 10 times harder which paid off but also depleted me.

I know from my previous management experience that I would’ve never done this or asked this from my team because it wasn’t healthy. So I had to reevaluate how I managed myself.

I used a combination of coaching, reading, reflection, various tools to manage my productivity (such as putting everything I have to do in a calendar and assigning a dedicated time for everything), and frequent talks with friends (the accountability group, the Shine Crew I’m part of that came to be because Tiffany Da Silva set a great example).

Once I started adjusting things, the process became a bit easier. The challenge of being your own sounding board, of managing all the aspects of running a business takes a lot of work, self-coaching, and constant effort.

But, honestly, I really enjoy it. This is a good place for me and I welcome the challenge. I chose freelancing with rather realistic expectations based on research and I’m glad I did. For me, it works really well.

It’s not all smooth sailing all the time and, honestly speaking, I don’t think it’ll ever be because…

10. Good work is never easy

By the end of this year I’ll have written and edited around 1/2 million words in 2019 alone.
I’ve also recorded around 40 hours of audio and video interviews.
And while I don’t have a clear way to track this, I’ve read over a thousand articles/reports/playbooks for research according to my estimations.

I wanted to share these numbers to shed a light on the amount of work that being a content marketer entails, of which I love every bit!

Easy things – I never liked those. I thrive doing difficult work, I love working to understand complex topics and explain them to someone else. I love working with my clients to figure out a stronger positioning, to help them connect with the right customers and grow their business.

I don’t want to delegate everything and just become someone with an administrative role. When people work with me, they expect me to be involved and this is way I’ve chosen not go to the agency path.

Knowing that good work is never easy is important to acknowledge, in my opinion. Personally, it helps me set realistic expectations. For me, the objective is to create something valuable, not to build the perfect process to run things with as little effort as possible. Some friction, some struggle are good, like Vitaly Friedman, Smashing Magazine co-founder said last week at GPeC. That’s where growth happens.

Certainly, some things are worth automating or standardizing, but they’re never the important aspects.

And there’s another thing about good work worth considering…

11. Do work that doesn’t scale

Good or great work is rarely scalable.

Because I’ve been working in tech for a decade, I’ve seen people try to automate everything. But some things cannot be automated, things like doing customer discovery, building relationships or figuring out positioning for a company. They take emotional labor and critical thinking which machines cannot replicate, based on our current knowledge of what is possible.

In marketing in general and content marketing specifically, many people are struggling because growth hacks, formulaic approaches, and “recipes for success” don’t work anymore.

Customers’ standards are evolving constantly and, in this context, non-scalable work is becoming increasingly important for growth because it produces better than average results.

What’s more, replicating success is highly dependent on people, no matter how great tech gets.

Their ability to teach and motivate others to pursue excellence (while also preserving their morals) is essential.

However, convenience, commoditization, and the network effect have chipped away at people’s drive to strive for personal growth in a way that helps them excel both in personal and professional matters.

Those who are ready to do the difficult work of bettering themselves, of living through growing pains and making something of them – they will be the ones who will thrive and enjoy a life lived to the fullest.

This has been my experience so far and it’s also my hope for the future. I’m committed to making this effort day after day. I’ve made my choice.

12. Carve a place for yourself

Understanding where I can make the biggest impact with my particular set of skills was extremely liberating.

For years I’ve been playing so many roles that I couldn’t define my main one. You could say I didn’t have a strong positioning for myself.

I wanted to gain more technical info around key cybersecurity concepts. I wanted to go deeper into SEO. I worked to improve my knowledge of key concepts in psychology and neuroscience. And the list can go on for a while!

I thought I had to be great at all of these if I were to do valuable work.

While my belief hasn’t changed, how I practice this belief has. This year was a turning point for me from this perspective too.

To maintain a stronger balance and make the most of what I can do, I decided to get comfortable with learning about some aspects on a need-to-know basis and I focused a lot more on talking to people who specialized in those particular aspects. Both have helped me gain depth faster and (in)validate my assumptions through other people’s direct experiences. Plus, I got to learn a lot more than I would have on my own.

Bit by bit, I carved a place for myself.

One evening, a few weeks ago, I realized something while talking to my better half: I am now doing full time what I used to do as a passion project:

This big-picture view helped me internalize that, at least for now, I’ve found my place at the intersection of what I’ve always loved: humans, tech, and how they shape one another.

13. Stick to your path

About 3 months after I started freelancing I got a proposal to join a startup… as an employee. Naturally, I had just started on my own and had barely had a chance to explore how it worked and what I could achieve as a company of one.

However, the opportunity seemed really interesting, so I engaged in a series of conversations to figure out if this could be an unmissable opportunity.

Throughout these conversations, I felt pressured to drop everything I was doing and conform to someone else’s expectations and business needs. It didn’t take me long to realize this was not the kind of person I wanted to work with, irrespective of my role.

Thankfully, my years of working with and for startups had taught me to distinguish over the top promises from what’s feasible. Also, the years I’d spent working on myself gave me the confidence to trust it was much better to pass on this proposal, without regrets or fear of missing out.

It was a bit like renewing my commitment to building my own business in a time when I really needed it. It felt empowering.

It’s been around 7 months since that moment and every step along the way confirmed that I made the right choice.

That’s why I’m taking this opportunity to strengthen how important it is to carve and stick to our own path. Save for rare exceptions, other people will always try to determine you to fit their plans and expectations. Getting swept up in that can chip away at your own identity and leave you confused and second-guessing yourself.

If you work to cultivate a strong sense of self, you’ll also improve your ability to make decisions that benefit you in the long run. Worth doing especially if you feel like you’re missing out on instant gratification in the short term.

It’s worth sticking to your path.

14. Remember that people are behind everything

No matter how big the company, no matter how evolved the tech, no matter how great the processes – the most valuable experiences and achievements happen when people work together.

Behind every product and service you use there are people working to make it and improve it. Most of the things we take for granted in our lives (and sometimes we take A LOT for granted) hides layers and layers of complexity. Understanding that people are behind everything can help us cultivate empathy and curiosity, abilities that make us better when we interact with others.

For example, it blew my mind to find out how Shazam started and evolved straight from its founder Chris Barton. There’s an entire story around it which I’ll write about soon but the gist is this: it took an enormous amount of persistent effort to build AI in the early ’00s and create the ecosystem around the app for it to become what it is today.

You may find it absolutely normal to tap on your app and find out which song is playing but there’s a huuuuge backstory to it.

Just keeping this in mind as I go about my day helps me avoid taking things for granted, and respect other people’s work just as I wish they respected and understood mine.

Resource: Give first.

15. Contribute

Keeping a student’s mindset.
Not letting ego get in the way.
Cultivating curiosity.

These three things have made a huge difference for me for more than a decade.

In practical terms, I see them as contribution the communities I’m part of, to my profession.

Seeing myself as a contributor instead of an expert makes a big difference because it keeps me from getting complacent.

It also helped me connect with people who have the same mindset and principles which is the single most important experience I could’ve hoped for.

This brought me opportunities the likes of interviewing incredible people like Ryan Holiday.

I’m still taken aback by how all the dots ended up connecting to make a moment like this happen.

The biggest sense of achievement still comes from doing the work for me but I don’t deny that experiences like these make me especially grateful.

16. Detach from outcomes

My last lesson for my 32nd birthday is this: after all is said and done, detach from what happens to your work after you ship it.

Avoid getting conceited and think you (can) control everything.
Avoid obsessing over what people make of your work, bad or good.
Focus on what you can do to give your best.

Consider a third option: working towards a place where you’re not worried about anything that happens. Whether your business fails or your boss fires you, you are still you. And because of that you will be fine. Just like you always are.

Ryan Holiday’s wise words can provide a starting point to cultivate a lasting legacy that doesn’t depend on trends or mass adoption. It can keep you from the slippery slope of wanting to be everything for everyone.

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Exactly 6 years ago, in October 2013, I got a new job. Well, two jobs actually: I became a digital communicator and events manager at How To Web and TechHub Bucharest.

That’s how I got hooked on the world of startups. 

At How To Web, I got to learn from and work with some of the best people in the ecosystem – investors, founders, mentors, and all sorts of specialists. What fascinated me is that working in a startup and creating a business from nothing pushes you to learn, to work, and to think differently. 

I was never into the hustle culture often associated with working with startups, which is why I loved working with the community at TechHub Bucharest. It was a completely different environment and I got to witness and contribute to the development of the local and regional startup ecosystem.

It was an intense personal development experience for me, one that I’m very thankful for.  

From there, I went on to work for startups and now, as a freelancer, I work with startups, the kind built on solid foundations by people who I respect and learn from every day. 

Throughout these years, I’ve stayed close to the How To Web community and today I have the opportunity to share with you the decision-making process of a startup investor.  

Listen to this episode to learn:

• The know-how of coaching and what it takes to support people to achieve their goals
• How commitment can “move mountains” if you have patience and choose your “game” wisely
• How we can develop multiple intelligences and why it’s helpful to do so
• How Alan became a startup investor and why
• The importance of personal values, identity, and branding to successfully achieve any goal.

About Alan Clayton:

Alan Clayton, my guest for this episode, is a Roaming Mentor at SOSV. He’s spent the last decade coaching founders from across the world. As part of the SOSV team, Alan invested in over 800 startups globally, having met thousands of founders.

To help them build businesses that make a real positive impact on the world, to challenge their thinking and become more than just managers to their teams, Alan developed the Wholebrain Methodology .

With a strong business and marketing background, Alan became a coach to give company founders a truly helpful hand. He’s very dedicated to solving the human part of any issue. Not only does he believe in multiple intelligences, but he also calls attention to how important it is to give people an alternative perspective.

As humans, we tend to be very subjective and it’s built into our genetic makeup. People need someone who can take a step back and see the problem with less emotional involvement. A good coach sees the issue objectively and gives you perspectives you didn’t even think existed.

Talking to Alan was a privilege and I hope you’ll listen to his words of wisdom with intent. Even if you’re not a startup founder, there’s just SO much to learn from him!    

Here are some of the concepts and ideas from our conversation that inspired me to reflect and dig deeper. 

“We develop favorite types of intelligence”

Alan mentioned the work of Howard Gardner, developmental psychologist, co-founder of The Good Project at Harvard, which encourages excellence, ethics, and engagement in education, and Senior Director of Project Zero, an educational research group at the Harvard Graduate School of Education dedicated to understanding and enhancing learning and thinking.

Howard Gardner is best known for his theory of multiple intelligences (extra details on Wikipedia and in this summary), which makes for a fascinating read. 

As a big believer in coaching and its very real results, I asked Alan how he uses his background as a coach to help startup founders grow and make increasingly better decisions. 

“Coaching helps people reengage with some of these types of intelligences that they may not use as regularly as they could.”

There’s a lot of mimeticism in the startup world 

Another key concept Alan touched on is René Girard’s mimetic theory. 

I found this Stanford Magazine article about Girard to be intriguing which made me want to read more about this theory and its implications: History is a test. Mankind is failing it.

“Girard’s theory—a long thought played out over decades—suggests that mimesis is the basis of all human conflict, and that the resolution of conflict through the public sacrifice of a scapegoat was the very foundation of archaic religions and civilizations. But the ancient formula no longer works, he says. The world may be headed for an impasse.”

One of the things Alan works to help founders is help them understand how the short term skews perspective and how it impacts the medium and long term. 

“In the startup world there is this built-in sense of urgency to create success or at least to create financial return, so trying to inject a little bit of patience into the system is difficult.”

To do this, Alan tries “to offer startups some kind of experience away from just working on their project.” This distance is one of the key ways to cultivate long-term thinking, something humans find difficult because we haven’t done it for a very long time. 

“People often have a strange idea about how their work life is separate from their home life, which I think is a bit bizarre because what I do at work has a huge impact on everything I do outside of work and vice versa.”

This reminded me of James P. Carse’s book, Finite and Infinite Games, which I highly recommend you read. 

“In the startup world, really all you have to play with is your money and your time. And the truth is that you could probably get money but you certainly can’t get more time.”

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• A good coach takes a step back and helps others look at their problems from a different perspective.
• Competition is a core issue and we aren’t even aware of it.
• Most people focus on the short term and this is the cause for the many unsolved problems in the world.
• When we start investing in projects, we should focus on those critical problems – hunger, the lack of water, and medicine.

How Alan became a startup investor

Alan’s candid account of how he became a startup investor will give you the real-life version of the story. 

He’s not afraid to point out the faults in the ecosystem, calling attention to the fact that the startup world is often dominated by short term interests and greed. 

Listen to the episode to find out how the industry is admitting its problems and some ways it’s trying to solve them.

“Some things just take time”

“Young people struggle to believe they can make a real impact in the world.”

When Alan said this, it instantly echoed my personal experience and I think the same may happen to you. 

Realizing we need to solve real problems takes time, as Alan says. That’s why the average age of founders in SOSV programs is higher than it used to be 10 years ago, reaching 35+.

His experience of working with startups and having spent the previous decade coaching people in large organizations taught Alan that: 

“It boils down to a small group of people with a vision and a massive commitment to deliver it.”

He reminds us of this famous quote from  cultural anthropologist Margaret Mead:

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.”

“There’s nothing you have to do”

“Things seem obvious but only in retrospect.”

With that in mind, Alan talks about neurological levels in NLP and how they can help us constantly assess whether the destination we’re heading towards is what we want for our future selves, irrespective of our current job/role/situation.

This is key for better decision-making and for ensuring the legacy we create for ourselves is one we’ll be grateful for 5, 10 years from now. 

This was a delightful episode to record and I’m thankful to the current How To Web team for making it happen! 

If you want to learn more from Alan Clayton and a bunch of other fantastic humans beings (and truly impactful leaders and specialists), join me at How To Web next week! 

I’ll be there, soaking in wisdom and striving to apply it every day.

Connect with Alan Clayton:

• LinkedIn
• Twitter
• SOS Ventures

Resources mentioned in the episode:

• Book: René Girard’s Mimetic Theory by Wolfgang Palaver
• Book: Finite and Infinite Games by James P. Carse

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Let’s geek out for a moment, shall we?

Think about the way a doctor, a CEO, and an athlete decide. Their environments couldn’t be more diverse, their stakes wildly different. Still, with great decision-makers, there’s always a common thread in their practice, no matter where they are in the world or how different their professions are.

Looking back at life when you’ve settled into your 40’s or 50’s can surface different skills and insights compared to how it feels in the moment, as you’re building your life, your professional path, and, most often, yourself.

Talking to Xenia Muntean was exactly this type of opportunity and it came in 6 parts (topic-wise).

Listen to this episode to learn:

• The importance of learning and showing up from a young age
• How your skills can sometimes reveal your entrepreneurial spirit even if you are not aware of it
• How to manage decision fatigue
• Who the best people to ask for advice are
• How Xenia became a CEO layering skills on top of her Degree in PR and Mass Communication.

Part 1: Participate

Xenia is the co-founder and CEO of Planable and she’s on a mission to build “the future of marketing teamwork” with a group of young and determined professionals. Currently, they’re doing it by providing brands big and small with “a content review and marketing collaboration platform” that really works.

Planable is backed by one of the strongest startup networks in the world – Techstars – having been through their London accelerator in 2017. They’re growing and working relentlessly to improve the product and the business. But Planable may have never exited if Xenia wouldn’t have had some significant experiences in her life early-on.

One of the key that popped up in our conversation was that Xenia’s choices drew heavily from her constant involvement in projects.

Whether it was her side project in high school, starting a digital marketing agency at age 20 or graduating from one of the best entrepreneurship schools in Silicon Valley, Xenia always showed up.

She did the work, which is how she noticed the way the digital marketing industry worked was inefficient in terms of workflow and processes. That’s how the idea for Planable started to take shape.

The story is much more interesting the way Xenia tells it so it’s best to hear it from her. And there’s something else you may notice: participation is highly influenced by examples, especially for women. And in the entrepreneurship sector we still need many more role models to make it a worthy path women are inclined to pursue.

More on it in the episode.

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• A tech company should focus on networking while also supporting and valuing each member of the team.
• It’s essential to prioritize and maintain mental health to not waste your true potential.
• When it comes to important decisions, remember to maintain a balance between fast choice-making and building confidence in the process.
• Those most invested in the problem will give you the best solutions. On the other hand, your friends and family will better understand your emotions, revealing a different perspective.

Part 2: Stretch yourself

Once participation becomes a habit, one practiced with awareness, it’s time to do a different kind of work.

For Xenia, it was developing the ability to think bigger and to get comfortable with risk.

For you, it may be something different but the mechanics can be very similar.

That’s why listening to Xenia speak about her experience can help you value and balance both the difficult, labor-intensive parts of levelling up and sweet rewards.

Part 3: Power through

You can’t build something big if you’re paralyzed by fear of failure.

Fear is a powerful trigger for our lizard brains, the part of us that holds us back from making bolder choices.

One way to overcome this automated response from the ancient part of our brain, that Xenia and I talked fondly about, is to surround yourself with people who bring out the best in yourself.

No, I’m not talking about cheerleaders but about people who will challenge you and tell you difficult things no one else would.

Part 4: Notice the subtle things

Xenia also talks about the power of subtler aspects and how impactful they can be for both decisions you make and the ones that other people make for you.

You may want to keep an… ear out for that in the episode, irrespective of your current job and role.

While the startup culture has many downsides, many of which are becoming blatantly obvious, it also has some great concepts that are worthy applying. One of these is dealing with complexity, something founders are required to do.

Noticing these subtle aspects is essential when talking to an investor, for example. And you can’t cultivate this ability to observe and notice without a strong sense of self-awareness. At least in my view.

When you listen to her story, you’ll learn exactly how Xenia developed self-awareness. The process involved a different kind of work, a type of work many people don’t have a name for. Seth Godin calls it…

Part 5: Emotional labor

Showing up.
Having difficult conversations.
Making decisions that make you uncomfortable now but know will lead to better outcomes in the future.

These are some types of emotional labor with the list going on and on.

To free up the mental space required for this kind of work, Xenia plans to apply something she saw worked for Mathilde Collin, CEO of Front, and one of Xenia’s role models.

This involves taking an hour each week to focus on evaluating priorities. No phone. No laptop. Just her, a pen, and a notepad.

As Xenia noticed in her own work, “checking off tasks feels good and it makes you avoid the big ones that are messy.” But as we both know, those are the important challenges worth tackling.

Part 6: Listen to learn

Listen to learn instead of looking for things to compare yourself to.

Seek out feedback from people but track your progress by only comparing yourself to where you were a few months/years ago.

These are two pieces of Xenia’s experience that spoke to me and I think you may resonate with them as well. They’re also indirect influences in our decision-making process, swaying our preference for one choice over the other.

Consider what you factor in.

Are you ready to take a dream job because you compare yourself to more successful peers?

Are you willing to get married just because comparing yourself to your newlywed friends makes you feel like you’re not making enough progress in your own relationship?

These are uncomfortable questions we must ask ourselves to avoid making choices that focus on short-term satisfaction and undermine us in the long run.

These are the kind of decisions I hope my conversation with Xenia, as well as other episodes from this podcast help you spend more time on.

As Xenia says, chat with someone from a different industry/group. Someone who can help you break your pattern.

It may be one of the best things you do.

Listening to this episode can be one way to do it, especially if you have nothing to do with the startup world.

It’s time to show up for yourself more often.

Will you start here? Now?

About Xenia Muntean:

Xenia Muntean is one of the most enthusiastic female entrepreneurs I’ve ever talked to. She started to craft and sell jewelry from a young age but didn’t envision that entrepreneurial endeavor could turn into an impressive career. As she stands for showing up as much as you can when you’re young, Xenia started a marketing digital agency at age 20. Moreover, she graduated from one of the best entrepreneurship programs in Silicon Valley.

Xenia always strove to build something meaningful, not only for her career but also for her relationships with colleagues. The experiences at Techstars, one of the best startup accelerators, taught her about quality entrepreneurship and sustainable relationships. Her great journey covers both and the role they played as she became the CEO and the Co-Founder of Planable.

Connect with Xenia Muntean:

• LinkedIn
• Twitter
• Planable

Resources mentioned in the episode:

• Front App – founded by Mathilde Collin
• How Mathilde uses Front App

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Marius takes us on a grand tour of his life, packed with adventure, seemingly insurmountable challenges, life-changing realisations, and what connects them all together.

Across continents, cultures, and professions, Marius Ciuchete kept going, kept learning, kept growing.

From taking a leap and working across the world to personal, seemingly insurmountable, challenges around his health, Marius unpacks – with generosity and grace – what helped him become a world-class expert in his field and someone who experiences life fully.

During our conversation, Marius took a trip down memory lane and stopped at the most important crossroads in his life:

• Working on a cruise ship the size of a small town for a few years and learning how to manage expectations while interacting with the other 95 nations aboard
• Experiencing plenty of cultures through work (UK, Belgium, Italy, Germany, Dubai, Romania) before settling in Canada
• Going from adrenaline junkie to stopping a plane because of flying anxiety and overcoming it through therapy and becoming a private pilot
• Changing his attitude and habits around food and health after his doctor told him his lifestyle brought him on the verge of cirrhosis, which she couldn’t help him recover from.

Listen to this episode to learn:

• Methods to overcome fears, worries, and stress
• How it benefits your career to have good relationships with collaborators, clients, and customers
• Ways to control your mind and focus on the things you enjoy the most
• The importance of being curious and adventurous – both in your career and in as you journey through life
• Why you should ask experienced people questions about how things work in their career if you’re interested in pursuing a similar path.

Through his stories, Marius constantly talks about two fundamental aspects o his life: people and travelling as a means of getting to know other cultures.

I base my decisions on the experiences of interacting with other people.

Although I’ve discussed mentoring, the importance of community and having a support group, and the key role friends and significant others play, no one phrased it quite like Marius did.

Deciding based on our experience with other people involves a level of trust and self-trust that’s difficult to come by these days. And nothing is more spectacular and impactful as forging relationships with others while travelling.

The level of knowledge you get from travelling is beautiful!

Marius sees travelling as the ultimate and most intense way to grow as a human being. His belief in the power of relationships shows that Marius truly understands human nature as its keen observer and lifelong student.

As I see it, Marius applies his principles both in all aspects of his life, which makes him a well-rounded person with one of the most coherent and inspiring voices I’ve ever had the pleasure of hearing.

Start by listening.

To build towards a sense of freedom and accomplishment, Marius made the same two decisions consistently over the years: to push beyond comfort and to trust people.

This attitude towards life brought him friends, opportunities, and wisdom, which he made the most of. Listening to the entire conversation will show you just how he carved out this path.

I hope you’ll enjoy the energy and tremendously inspiring insights that Marius shares in this episode!

A few ideas that stuck with me:

• A successful life is “all about receiving and giving back” through good deeds.
• Working with the wrong people adds a lot of stress to your personal life and overflows to your loved ones.
• You make the best decisions if you align with your inner-self and listen to what your mind says.
• Being on your own means you’re in charge of your actions and environment. Thus, you decide what you work on and who you want to work with.

About Marius Ciuchete:

An authentic adventurer, moving from fear of flight to becoming a private pilot, Marius is the inspiration we all need when we are downcast. His secret is staying in touch with his inner-self.

Marius inspired me to ask myself: what would my journey look like without asking the right people for guidance? That’s why he gladly talks about how much help he received from a little 60-year-old lady and many other surprising people he met along the way.

Just like you and me, Marius has also experienced that feeling of being overwhelmed, very busy, and stressed, of not being able to focus on almost anything. Thankfully, he recovered and he shares how he did it so we may learn from his experience.

Marius encourages us to help each other grow. Thanks to his mindset, he is now more active than ever. As an interaction designer, he has one goal: for people to connect with his work. Marius strongly emphasizes the benefits of intercommunication, of talking and listening to what others tell you. But, most importantly, he stands for talking to our inner-selves and learning to choose the right people for our career and personal life.

Connect with Marius:

• Website
• LinkedIn
• Twitter

Resources mentioned in the episode:

Book: Brand Sense: Build Powerful Brands through Touch, Taste, Smell, Sight, and Sound by Martin Lindström, Philip Kotler

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

I’ve recently developed a bit of an obsession for Jennifer Lopez.

Bet you didn’t expect that. Well, neither did I.

I’ve been a fan for years, because I grew up watching her videos on MTV and singing along to her songs. However, in the past 6-8 years, J Lo hasn’t really been on my radar as my musical diet comprised of mostly of electronic music.

What changed is that, about 2 weeks ago, I stumbled upon her Youtube channel and I was SO impressed!

Not only does Jennifer Lopez continue to be one of the biggest stars in the world, but she does while staying true to herself.

She mentions this in many interviews and especially in this one for People Magazine where she admits there was a period in her life when things go blurry, when she strayed from her way of doing things. When she found her focus again, she skyrocketed to the top once more.

This led me to reflect on the importance of being myself and how it impacts my life in all aspects. I started by pondering on why I admire this ability in others.

What I’ve observed both in people I look up to – such as Jennifer Lopez or today’s podcast guest, Val Geisler – is that they’ve very consistent in what they do and how they talk about their work. They also have a unique voice and a clear path.

Why is this essential to how we live, to our performance and our happiness?

One answer is cognitive dissonance which involves a lot of mental discomfort caused by upholding contradictory beliefs. Us, humans, can’t handle that.

A person who experiences internal inconsistency tends to become psychologically uncomfortable and is motivated to reduce the cognitive dissonance, by making changes to justify the stressful behavior, either by adding new parts to the cognition causing the psychological dissonance or by avoiding circumstances and contradictory information likely to increase the magnitude of the cognitive dissonance.

For example, if your job is making you unhappy, you might justify staying in it by saying things like: “I might not get a job that’s as well paid as this one”. The same goes for straying off course when you decide to eat healthier: “a donut won’t make that much of a difference.”

Except it does.

Staying in that job affects your self-esteem and your belief in your own ability to assume ownership of your professional course.

Bullshitting yourself back into unhealthy eating patterns chips away at your belief that you can do what you truly believe is right for your health in the long run.

If you start to spot it, cognitive dissonance is present in many aspects of our lives. Listing all the instances where it happens can help us identify how influences affect our judgement and decisions.

Here’s a personal example: almost a decade ago, I seriously considered moving across the world to be with my boyfriend at the time. The motivation and decision were his, but I was so smitten that I almost did it, in spite of it not being the right thing for me at that stage in my life.

It was an incredibly painful process, both for myself and my family. I felt broken to pieces as everyone was trying to pull me in their direction (“move with me” vs “don’t move away from us”). At the end of the day, I didn’t really know what I wanted and it plunged me into a period of severe anxiety and, ultimately, depression.

That experience changed the course of my life. It accelerated my personal development and ignited a growth process that continues to this day. And it all started with going to therapy.

When I talked to Val Geisler for the How do you know? podcast, she also mentioned therapy as the most important appointment in her calendar. There’s simply nothing more effective for overcoming the big challenges in our lives, for finding our voice and our mission than working with an experienced therapist or coach. I’ve seen this work wonders for myself and many other people.

As the years go by, I gain a better understanding of why being true to ourselves matters, especially when dealing with so much change, inside and out. Talking to Val reminded me that’s where resilience comes from.

Understanding why we do the things we do, why we make decisions, and building ourselves according to our values are key habits that keep us grounded, like a tree whose deep roots keep it anchored during countless storms.

Val makes a couple of great points about resilience:

• There’s no better way to build resilience than doing the work
• We all make mistakes all the time and understanding why they happen and learning from that is what helps us become stronger, both mentally and emotionally
• Doing less, with more focus is a great way to set yourself up for success.

Val’s unique voice and position in the marketing community didn’t happen overnight. She worked hard to find the most fitting way to do her best work and she’s still doing it every day.

I loved her advice on putting the phone down and paying attention to what happens in our own lives. That is how we make decisions that align with our beliefs while also learning to become better versions of ourselves in the process.

This conversation with Val Geisler is so real, so authentic, and so helpful because she brought her whole self into it. No filters, no bullshit.

It’s women like Val, Cristina, Kaleigh, Vessy, Adelina, Elizabeth (and Jennifer Lopez) who inspire me to keep building myself in a way that makes sense for me.

As time goes by, this internal alignment gets a bit easier, a lot more satisfying, and that source of inner balance that I’ve been craving for all my life. Using my decisions to drop anchors along the way makes sure I stay the course as much as possible and have an increasingly stronger foundation to build on.

I hope listening to all these wonderful women (and the men) on the podcast and learning from their experiences helps you make your best decisions too!

Val was all about real-life experiences, so here’s where you can find out more about her work and process:

• Val’s website
• Val’s LinkedIn
• Val on Twitter.

Val also recommends Jay Acunzo’s book: Break the Wheel: Question Best Practices, Hone Your Intuition, and Do Your Best Work.

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Learning from others is a privilege.

This is how I see the opportunity to spend an hour with my guests and hear how they progressed through the most important stages in their lives.

Through the stories she told me, Vessy taught me a few essential ways to cultivate self-worth outside of work, which is something I often struggle with. She didn’t intend to do that nor did we discuss this as a specific challenge, but that is exactly how it helped me, personally.

I’m excited to see how it helps you.

Vessy Tasheva is the founder of Vessy.com – the global online community for Diversity & Inclusion champions (invite-only) that supports them through knowledge sharing, collaborations, and emotional support.

She’s also the author of 2019 Diversity in the Workplace Report. Vessy helps companies identify and work towards removing the obstacles to Inclusion in their organization.

Through these projects, Vessy enables companies who value inclusion and diversity to make progress faster, no matter where they are in the world, because diversity is not just a Western thing as we might believe.

The way I see it, Vessy guides people to understand the norm as it changes.

Her interests are incredibly diverse and also highly convergent.

I was fascinated by her rich experience with gaining a deep understanding of both her and other people’s needs, wishes, and fears.

For example, her story about moving to Dublin prompted me to think about how important it is to notice when things fall into place. It’s like using your car’s headlights: you can’t see the full road ahead in the night but you can see a portion of it that points you in the right direction.

From learning how to be alone with yourself to understanding the fundamental importance of diversity and inclusion, we talked about Vessy’s key life experiences:

• growing up in Bulgaria, in a family that valued art and culture
• working in creative roles across industries (advertising, tech, marketing)
• leaving a job she loved because she didn’t have enough room to grow
• moving to another country because she wanted to experience a more inclusive culture
• being a first-time, single founder and building a company from the ground up
• being an advocate for diversity and inclusion and helping companies have these necessary and challenging conversations around them.

I firmly believe Vessy’s wisdom, her perspective, and her ability to explain difficult issues make for an important life lesson.

“… tomorrow it could be a version of what I’m doing today but it might require me to become a different version of who I am today.”

Vessy Tasheva

Vessy was inspired by Michelle Obama’s book, Becoming, to articulate a different way of perceiving her own evolution. I echo this change, as the book had a similar effect on me.

This framing involves identifying the mental barriers we deal, especially as women, so we may overcome them and thrive in every aspect of our lives.

Autobiographies helped Vessy cultivate emotional resilience to face these barriers, which is why she recommends them. Another podcast guest, Cristina Chipurici, feels the same about them and even created a list to help you read the best of them.

There are many paths this particular podcast episode can take you.

Choose the one(s) that fit your needs right now. Take what you need to advance, to continue to become who you need to be to achieve what you’re working for.

If you think others may find it as valuable, send them this link. You never know how one of Vessy’s experiences might trigger the change they’d been looking to make.

And if you’re interested in the different diversity and inclusion can make, check out Vessy’s invite-only events. It’s a powerful experience to understand more about how other people think, act, and understand the world.

Resources mentioned in the podcast:

• The 2019 Diversity in the Workplace Report
• 3 Reasons Why Women Stay or Leave a Job
• How I Decide When to Leave or Stay in a Job
• Self Discovery through “Me” Dates
• What I Learned About Myself from Solo Travel

BOOKS:

• Sheryl Sandberg’s Option B
• Trevor Noah’s Born A Crime
• Gay Hendricks’s The Big Leap

You can also find Vessy on:

• Twitter
• LinkedIn

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

An hour is not nearly enough to tell even a summary of Cristina’s story. However, I tried to get the most important moments of her evolution and capture the decisions that shaped her trajectory.

Cristina is one of the most impactful people in digital in Romania and well beyond it. Her project, The CEO Library, extends her reach in countries across the world as people turn to her book recommendations for life-changing ideas.

From journalism to founding high-quality content projects to music marketing and back, Cristina’s path is an example of what it’s like to use your principles to guide your decisions.

One of the most interesting things about her decision-making process is her fearless experimentation with habits and tactics that improve both her thinking and actions.

We talked about this extensively in the episode, with Cristina sharing a lot of personal stories that reveal how she chose to start or stop doing things in the most important moments of her life.

Another thing Cristina excels at is providing context for better decision-making. She does this wonderfully with The CEO Library, in the hundreds of interviews and the book collections she put together so far, on topics like stoicism, building habits or learning how to learn.

Personally, I learned a lot from Cristina and I continue to do. In fact, her now sunset podcast for the The CEO Library was a main driver in me deciding to do this podcast, along with Louis Grenier’s Everyone Hates Marketers (Let’s Change That), who I talked to in episode 4 of How do you know?.

We covered a lot of ground in our conversation, picking up topics such as social influence, adapting to change, digital minimalism or how to incorporate running and a reading habit into your life.

As you’ll find out, Cristina is fantastic curator of life-changing ideas who is worth following and getting to know better. She is one of those high-performers who have had a big impact on my life and I suspect it could be the same for you.

Enjoy the episode!

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

When I grow up, I want to be like Kaleigh.

How couldn’t I want to get to a stage where I take on just enough work and have plenty time for walking my (future) dog?

Precious good boy alert! ? pic.twitter.com/AR5W4IdgN2

— Kaleigh Moore (@kaleighf) February 22, 2019

(Just to clarify, this is Kaleigh’s dog but he’s everything a good, good boy can be and more!)

There’s a long list of reasons that make Kaleigh a role model for so many freelancers and communication specialists. Here’s just one example.

Understand how you work so you can improve your flow

Before talking to Kaleigh, I’d already learned a bunch of practical things from her about how to be a better, more professional freelancer. Listening to the Creative Class podcast, which she does with my previous podcast guest, Paul Jarvis, was incredibly helpful in setting appropriate expectations about this new way of working.

And it’s not just the podcast. My friends who took the Creative Class course swear by this experience and highlight how truly helpful it was for levelling up their freelancing game.

That’s because on top of being a highly sought-after writer for SaaS and e-commerce, Kaleigh is also a great teacher. Her deep focus on structure, prioritization, and building self-awareness are the key ingredients that she uses to make her life more rewarding and enjoyable.

We talked in depth about her process and how she developed with intent, fine tuning it over the years. Kaleigh also shared her daily routine, what she does to manager her work effectively and how she made improving it a daily habit.

We discussed how she makes decisions now and how she moved from making impulsive choices to a more analytical and systematic approach (spoiler alert: it doesn’t come naturally). This echoed my own experience from the past years which got me excited to compare experiences and explore similarities and differences.

Kaleigh mentioned how important it is to have people around you who can nudge you to look at the big picture. Being a freelancer can get lonely, so having a few close friends who do the same work plays a huge beneficial role.

The entire conversation is packed with Kaleigh’s wisdom and her practical tips that come from personal experience.

I had a blast interviewing her about how she manages to achieve so much while keeping her business flexible and adapted to her needs. On top of that, the way she helps others shine and build a career and life they love is inspiring!

You can hear it in my voice and I suspect Kaleigh enjoyed doing it too.

Just podcast recorded with @AndraZaharia and she had some really thoughtful, interesting questions. Excited to share this! Always appreciate interviews where it’s clear the other person did some research beforehand.

— Kaleigh Moore (@kaleighf) January 29, 2019

After you listen to the episode, I highly recommend you subscribe to Kaleigh’s newsletter and check out the Domina retreat she’s doing with her good friend, Emma Siemasko.

I hope you’ll enjoy the episode and get a valuable perspective on how you can improve your work and build a more rewarding life no matter if you’re a freelancer or not. Kaleigh’s wisdom and personal examples work for anyone who wants to live more meaningfully.

Resources mentioned in the podcast:

• • Kaleigh’s website
  • Kaleigh’s Twitter profile
  • Kaleigh’s newsletter
  • Her year in review articles: 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018

, 2019, 2020

• 15+ reusable ideas to find copywriting clients who pay well
• This approach to “empathy in marketing” makes your page 10x more effective
• 7 Novels That Changed the Way I Think, View Life, and Understand People
• Recap: Five Years Of Full-Time Freelance Writing
• How Can Freelancers Build Better Onboarding Processes?
• Building Confidence As A Freelancer & Beating Imposter Syndrome
• Her AMA on GrowthHackers
• More about her from Kaleigh herself
• The Creative Class podcast
• Why I’m co-hosting my first small retreat

My own article on imposter syndrome.

BOOKS:

• Paul Jarvis – Company of One
• Jason Fried – It doesn’t have to be crazy at work
• Michael Pollan – How to Change Your Mind

Alternatively, play the episode in your favorite apps:

Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Overcast | Simplecast | Stitcher | Pocket Casts | Player.fm

Full episode transcript:

Andra Zaharia: Kaleigh Moore never sits still. She’s one of the best freelance writers for software as a service and e-commerce companies out there. She also teaches other freelancers how to build their business in the creative class course, along with my previous guests, Paul Jarvis. What’s more, Kaleigh coaches other freelance writers. She sends out an awesome newsletter and somehow finds the time to walk her wonderful dog, Brooks. I think we had a great conversation because of our shared love for the Gilmore Girls, but that’s just one aspect of it. If you came to understand what decisions go into building a freelance business, you will love this episode and packs in digs down into just that. So, Kaleigh, hi! Welcome to How Do You Know? It’s so good to have you. 

Kaleigh Moore: Thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to chatting with you today. I think we have a lot of interesting things to talk about. 

Andra Zaharia: Oh, I cannot wait to dig deep into your process and ask you like a bunch of questions that are going around my head and to hopefully discover more as, as we go throughout this conversation. You know, I’ve been learning from you and learning from, from Paul Jarvis as well through the creative class podcast and from your work so much, especially in the past month working as I work my way up to becoming a freelancer and then, when the switch actually happened. And I know that people are super curious about how you managed to do so much and be so effective and have these absolutely fantastic results. So, I’m really looking forward to taking that into that, and hopefully everything that’s behind all this great output and all this great work that you’re doing. 

Kaleigh Moore: Yeah. I’m looking forward to chatting about that! I don’t get to talk about the nitty gritty that often. So, it’ll be interesting to, like you said, get into that and talk about the details on the back end of things.

Andra Zaharia: That is so awesome! And you know, your honesty and the authenticity really shine through your work and everything that you do. And that is one more reason why I wanted to get a chance to talk to you about these things. So, getting right into it, I wanted to ask, since you always seem to be picking apart the processes or challenges, and you have this very methodic approach of breaking down complexity into things that are manageable and that feel very approachable, how did you get to this point where it feels very natural to do this? 

Kaleigh Moore: That is a good question. I think it took a lot of years of feeling like there was a lot of chaos around the work that I did and being frustrated about how to sort through, like you said, those complex ideas and sometimes fairly technical subject matter around the things that I was writing for. And so, I really, I tried a lot of different things when it came to the actual execution of the writing that I was doing. And what I eventually found was that having a good strategy and a good plan, and basically, a good outline that serves as a map and that provides some direction for the works that I’m doing. That helps add a lot of clarity. Number one, I think that’s the big thing: it adds a lot of clarity to the whole process and it makes the whole experience of writing and creating something a lot less stressful. So, having just kind of a clear map of “Okay, here are the things that I’m going to talk about. Here are the concepts that I’m going to dive into. Here are some of the natural questions that are prompted around the things that I’m writing about and the questions that were coming up in my mind as I was learning about these things.” And then really just putting that into an outline format and tackling it. Strategically from that and working from a good framework, makes the whole process a lot less daunting because when you don’t have that in place, and you’re just kind of throwing words at a page or endlessly researching and not really ever finding a good structure with things that can make you crazy and it can make your work take so much longer. And for the editor, it makes often times a lot more edits and it makes the editing process take longer. So, the structure is really important for just adding a lot of simplicity and it does take longer. Sometimes it takes a lot more planning. You have to be a lot more mindful of how you want to teach something or, you know, the logical flow of things, but it’s hugely valuable. And it’s really changed my process and made my life a lot easier and a lot simpler. 

Andra Zaharia: You just sound like you’ve been organized all your life. So, I cannot, you know, as someone who obviously proceeds your work and your experience from the outside, you seem like this is very deeply ingrained into your personality. So, I was wondering if you’ve ever been like super organized or if it was a tendency where maybe something that you saw in your family or in your group of friends that became such an important part of you as you move throughout your life and your career. 

Kaleigh Moore: I think that for me, it was kind of a learned behavior. So as a teenager, I was somebody who had two closets in my room and they were always full of a lot of like piled on top of each other junk. Like it was this crazy mess clothes all over the floor. Like very messy. I once left a sandwich in my backpack for like two months and it turned green. I forgot about it. So, I definitely I didn’t always have a personality or habits that were reflective of how I am now. So, I think as I got older and like I said, as I started to get stressed out by those kinds of habits and thinking of approaching things that way, I realized it didn’t have to be like that and adding a little bit more organization. And like I said, mindfulness and structure to things. Yeah, it takes more time, but it makes things simpler and in the long run. So, I think it probably took me a good 10 years to get good at that. And I’m definitely not perfect now. I definitely still have some trouble staying organized, but I mean, I’m not even somebody who makes their bed in the morning every day. I’ll make it at some point during the day, but it’s not something I do first thing in the morning. So, I think that that kind of speaks to that question a little bit. 

Andra Zaharia: Oh, that is a very interesting change in perspective. I think because most people see, you know, discipline, like something that’s very difficult to acquire and then you would need to put in a lot of effort together and everyone says that it’s good for you, but not everyone, you know, can really see what’s at the end of this effort and what comes after it. For those people who struggled with discipline I think you’re, you’re a very good example of understanding how we can simplify our life and it can clear up your thinking because obviously I think of myself as a very organized person, and I love making lists. They kind of organize my entire life around them. But still that big pile of books that I read, like I began reading five or six at a time. And that big pile of books on my desk says that I do not have, well, I have not yet attained that level of organization that I really wanted to. I think it’s very important to understand that this is a process that each can take at their own stride, but engaging in it, I think it cultivates and it spreads throughout your life and helps you cultivate so much more like self-awareness, which is something that you definitely make a lot of use of, you know, both in your career. And I think that it probably happens in your personal life as well, given that one influences another. So, I wanted to ask if you remember a starting point towards building this very intense self-awareness and how it’s helped to you both in your career and maybe in in the important traces in your life as well.

Kaleigh Moore: That’s a good question. You know, I’m pretty fortunate to have a spouse who’s very grounded and is very good at, maybe if I don’t see a point of view or perspective on something, bringing that to the table and asking me to think about it that way. So, I think that has helped me learn a lot about myself. It’s also not always fun to really take a hard look at some of habits or the things that you do on a day-to-day basis. And question them a little bit, it’s hard to change. I mean, like I said, I feel like I was a pretty different person 10 to 15 years ago. And so, it does take an open mind and a willingness to be open to change and to be willing to have that self-awareness and to think about how can I maybe do things better or where are the gaps in what I’m doing now And, basically, it’s like a lot of the people in the world that I work in, which is software, they talk about optimization. And so, in a way it’s kind of self-optimization, how can I juice the most out of this day or this process, or, you know, just get the most out of my work-day, something like that. And so, it’s hard, like I said, it’s not easy. It’s not always fun, but as long as you are willing to think kind of strategically and think open-mindedly about how you could do things differently or maybe where you could have done things differently and try to do better in the future. I think that’s really helpful. And like I said, I’m not perfect. Like there’s still a lot of things that I do wrong. I still have a lot of room for improvement, but I think learning also helps a lot with this too. So, like you, I’m an avid reader. I love to read; I do things like masterclass. I love to watch PBS and BBC documentary. So, I think having a mind that’s programmed to learn and to be open and accepting to new ideas, I think that helps a lot too. And so doing those types of activities where you’re always obtaining new information and I would say like adding to your file folders inside your mind, that’s really helpful too.

Andra Zaharia: Oh, that is definitely one of the biggest things. I think that is going to be like a core skill for the future no matter what the future brings, because our jobs as content marketers didn’t really exist 10 years ago. So, we have no idea how that’ll change in the next 10. And I think that having this growth mindset and having this, the students’ attitude towards life and everything that we’re still discovering about ourselves and about the things around us. Can get you also through maybe the more difficult times, especially I think from, from what I’ve heard and from my very short-lived experience. So far, as a freelancer, I know that you really need these processes and these anchors to hold you through the rough moments when you start doubting yourself and when imposter syndrome pops up all over the place and kind of takes your energy away. So, I think it’s very important that he mentioned this and that you explained some of your source of learning. I’m sure that there’s a lot more we’re going to discover a longer conversation too. And you also mentioned something about a few questions that you use to kind of figure out where you are and what else you’re missing and what you might add to your work or improve. You mentioned a question related to “How do I figure out what the gaps in my knowledge are out there? Any other similar questions that you use regularly, maybe both in your work, that kind of   help you generally with the decisions you make. 

Kaleigh Moore: Yeah, I think just kind of taking a basic journalistic approach to at least to the work that I do. So, asking those really simple questions of like: Who? What? Where? When? How? and then really tackling. If you can tackle those things first and get a good grasp on what it is that you’re trying to do, who you’re trying to talk to, what you’re talking about, those types of things.  That’s usually a good guidebook as far as like getting your footing with a really complex piece of content or connecting the dots between really advanced ideas and concepts. So, if I’m working on a really long form piece and I’m feeling intimidated by the subject matter or the amount of work that I have to do, or the amount of research, just kind of starting with those basic questions and getting answers to those is usually like the very early stages of my outline. And so it’s almost like in a way, it’s the writing brief. It points me in the right direction and helps me figure out what I’m trying to do and who I’m writing for and why. And if I can have that information in place, I can usually get a pretty solid start and just get things moving because oftentimes, like that’s the biggest hurdle ride Is like staring at the blank page and, you know, you have this assignment, you have a deadline, but you have to have a starting point. And so, yeah, just taking a journalist mind to those types of assignments or types of work. That’s a really simple way to get started. And it keeps me from struggling with writer’s block o just feeling like too intimidated to even sit down and write that I feel like is a good starting point.

Andra Zaharia: Oh, I think that those are very useful tools to, you know, mental tool, to kind of break out of the box. Even if maybe some people may be looking for, let’s say recipes or guidelines that are more complex, but I always saw that the simplest questions knows that people haven’t been asking for forever basically have the biggest impact and can reveal kind of the most important… the fundamental details of life and work and whatever dilemmas we’re struggling with at any point in our lives. Speaking about, your freelancing career, you’ve been doing this for almost six years now, if I’m not mistaken. I wanted to ask, I remember making the decision of going from a full-time job to a freelancing job. How you see decision in hindsight? Because it’s been more than half a decade now. 

Kaleigh Moore: Yeah, wow. That’s weird. I don’t even really stop to think about that, but that’s so weird to hear somebody else say. So, looking back, I had a good job. I was working in PR for a nonprofit, but the thing was, as most nonprofits are, they were fairly resource strapped. And so, I had some time during the day, usually throughout the week where I was like “Man, you know, if I were at home and, you know, freelancing, I would have a lot more efficiency built into my day to where I wouldn’t be strapped to this desk, eight hours a day. I could just get done what I needed to get done and then go off and do something else that I wanted to do.” And so, I started doing it on the side and within about six months, I was making almost as much through a couple of retainers that I had in some initial client work that I had gotten almost as much as I was at the full-time job. I was younger at the time. I think I was 24. Yeah, 24. And it was a good time for me. I mean, I was still pretty young and didn’t have kids, still don’t have kids in case you’re wondering. But I was just like, you know, I’m going to give myself 18 months and see if this works. And my husband was on board with it. We were just newly married at the time. And so, I gave it a whirl and, you know, a year in I had made more than I was making at the PR job and was steadily growing. My client roster was steadily getting new referrals for new work. And so that just kind of added the sustainability that I was so concerned about. The big thing for me was like, “Can I make this work long-term?” But those referrals really helped to make that possible for me to where I had this recurring, basically green-lighted customers coming my way, who were from other people, who were happy with the work that I had done for them. So, I think it was a good timing. I think I was really fortunate to kind of just randomly fall into the world of software as a service at the time when… I mean, six years ago, things have changed so much since then and it’s grown so much, so tons of opportunity, great place to be. Same with e-commerce, that’s the other world I work within quite a bit. And so, I was fortunate. That was fairly luck. But yeah, I think again, I think just kind of having an open mind and a dedication to keep learning and getting better has really helped guarantee that I like have recurring work and I’m not just like “I’m good. I don’t think I need to learn anything else. I’m pretty comfortable with how things are going.” There’s a lot of fear I think, to freelancing. And so, having a fear that drives you to keep learning and to keep reaching back out to old customers and asking for testimonials and doing all of those things that make it sustainable, it’s worked out really well. Like I said, I’ve been really, really fortunate. 

Andra Zaharia: Oh, and I think that, good fortune was definitely favored by a lot of work and a lot of commitment to making this work and to putting on your best results. And it’s no wonder that you’re one of the most appreciated and sought for specialists in the business, because it’s obvious, you can tell that your quality of work reflects all that effort. That’s put into it and there’s no match to that in my opinion, because the most successful people I follow and, I say success has many definitions, in my view, but the people who feel balanced and that put out fantastic work that really drives change and helps businesses grow and also empower generations of other specialists in whatever industry they may be all very consistent and very persistent in their work.  And I, to anyone who is listening to the podcast and who’s listened to other episodes as well, I think that this is clear that the path to making better decisions, as well as also through doing the work again and again, until you figure out progressively ways to do it better and better. It’s not really that complicated, but you do have to get shipping and do it over and over again until you kind of get the hang of it. 

Kaleigh Moore: Yeah, so true!

Andra Zaharia: Given that, your work is basically, you’re guiding your readers to decisions, to choosing what they buy, to making choices about their business. Mostly because you’re in B2B software as a service marketing. How does that influence the way you work? Because I think that there’s a level of responsibility that’s involved with content marketing, with content writing just as it is with journalism, for example.