Kicking off my series of videos from last week’s Cloud Expo in Santa Clara, here is a chat I had with Oren Teich, of Heroku.  Heroku, if you’re not familiar is a 2-yr old Platform as-a-Service company targeting Ruby developers.  Oren recently joined Heroku as their head of product management and had the following to say:

Some of the topics Oren tackles:

• Where the name “Heroku” comes from and why they were going for a Japanese sounding name.
• Why did they choose Ruby and why did they go with a cloud-based plaform?
• How Heroku is similar/different from Google App Engine and Engine Yard.
• The majority of the folks who have created the 39,000+ apps on the site are hobbists.   That being said, the folks who pay their bills are those who are creating social media apps for platforms like Facebook, Twitter and the iPhone.
• How Heroku makes their money: they charge as you scale and they charge for add-ons.
• What they plan to concentrate on in the year ahead

Pau for now…

This week I made the trek out of the Lone Star state and headed west to the Bay Area.  I spent the first day in San Francisco where I took our sales folks through my cloud presentation and then had meetings with a few members of the press.  Here is the outcome of a couple of those meetings:

• Dell Eyes Cloud Computing — Information Week
• Dell schools net ‘dolphins’ in ways of Microsoft ‘whale’ — The Register

Down on the Peninsula

From the city I headed down to Santa Clara and the Cloud Computing Expo.  I don’t think I saw a single customer at the event but I did run into a bunch of interesting companies in attendance.  With my trusty Flip Mino I even recorded a bunch of interviews that I will be rolling out in the days to come.  Here’s the list

• 3Tera — Barry Lynn, CEO
• Heroku — Oren Teich head of product
• Oracle VM — Adam Hawley, Director of Product management
• Gluster — Hitesh Cellani, CEO and Jack O’Brien head of marketing
• The Planet — Rob Walters, director of product management
• Stoneware — Rick German, CEO
• Cloud Camp — Dave Nielsen, co-founder

Stay tuned.

A Zoho billboard in the San Jose airport, right in the heart of Google country.

Pau for now…

On Friday I grabbed lunch with Geoff Tudor, SVP of business development and co-founder of Nirvanix .  After they cleared the plates I talked to Geoff about what Nirvanix does and where he saw cloud storage heading.

Some of the topics Geoff tackles:

• Providing cloud storage for the enterprise from five data centers around the world that are pooled and presented as one large global file server.
• The Nirvanix “secret sauce”: the file virtualization layer that sits on top of pooled/virtualized commodity storage.
• How Nirvanix’s offering is different than Amazon’s S3 (hint: one’s targeted at enterprises and one’s targeted at developers)
• Customers such as the NASA/ASU library which is the largest cloud storage use ever and stores images from the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter camera.
• Security and how Nirvanix addresses customer’s concerns.
• What Geoff sees in the future for cloud storage.

Pau for now…

Yesterday Gartner distinguished analyst Tom Bittman, who covers cloud computing and virtualization,  posted some thoughts and observations from the Gartner Symposium in Orlando.

Private Cloud-o-maina

Based on Tom’s observations, private cloud (however defined) seems to have captured the hearts and minds of IT.  Before he began his talk on virtualiztion he did a quick poll asking how many in the audience considered private cloud computing to be a core strategy of theirs.  75% raised their hands.  While not overly scientific, that’s a pretty big number.

Little Miss Appropriation

The logical next question one may ask is what do people mean when they say “private cloud.”  According to Tom the three most common ways private clouds are being (mis) described are:

• IT defending its turf: Shared services that were being re-labelled as private clouds (but without a self-service interface, or much automation at all)
• Vendors defending their products: Old products being re-labelled as private clouds in a box (I described most of these as “lipstick on a pig”)
• Advanced server virtualization deployments: Although few have a true self-service interface, the intention is certainly there

So it looks like there is quite a bit of misappropriation of the term.  However,  as we previously learned,  just because there is hype and misuse of terms, doesn’t mean there isn’t value in the concept of “private cloud.”  The question is what is that value?

Tom sees private cloud’s value as a means to end and concludes his post by saying

The challenge with private cloud computing, of course, is to dispel the vendor hype and the IT protectionism that is hiding there, and to ensure the concept is being used in the right way – as a stepping-stone to public cloud… [italics mine]

(I’m not your) Stepping Stone

This is where I disagree.  I believe that while private cloud can be a path to the public cloud, it can also be an end unto itself.  Unfortunately (or fortunately) we will always have heterogeneous environments and in the future that will mean a mixture of  traditional IT, virtualized resources, private clouds and public clouds.  In some case workloads will migrate from virtualizaiton out to the public cloud but in other cases they will stop along the way and decide to stay.

IT will become more efficient and more agile as the cloud evolves but there will be no Big Switch (see above illustration), it (IT) will need to manage a portfolio of computing models.

Pau for now…

Just a little while ago Steve Shankland posted an article from the front lines of the Gartner Symposium ITxpo in Orlando.   The article is based on a presentation given today by Gartner addressing the top 10 trends that will be coming in IT in 2010.

And what found itself moving up two spaces from last year and claiming the top spot?   Cloud computing.

Gartner’s cloud advice, notes Shankland, is

…companies should figure out what cloud services might give them value, how to write applications that run on cloud services, and whether they should build their own private clouds that use Internet-style networking technology within a company’s firewall.

(On a side note, it’s interesting to see that last year’s leader virtualization has been tri-sected into: Client Computing, Reshaping the Data Center and Virtualization for Availability)

Back on top

Being at the top of a Gartner chart is nothing new for Cloud Computing as you can see in this Hype Cycle from a couple of months ago:

So I guess the moral of this story is, just because something is over-hyped doesn’t mean its still not important.  Ignore the cloud at your peril

Pau for now…

Endnote: A word from our sponsor

If you happen to be at the Gartner event and you want to see Dell’s take on the cloud, check out Tim Mattox’s presentation tomorrow at 3:30 – 4:30: Leveraging the Cloud to Reduce your IT costs.

Jimmy Pike is the director of systems architecture for the Data Center Solutions group here at Dell and self-proclaimed “head geek.”   Using a tool case with its insides stripped out, part of an old inbox and a bunch of off the shelf components he has created the world’s first portable “data center.”   (All for the princely sum of ~$2,000)

This former toolkit now holds:

• Two dual-socket servers featuring 2.5GHz Intel processors
• One server running Windows ‘03 acting as the DHCP and domain server and the other running Red Hat linux.
• 2 x 1TB SATA drives for each of the servers
• 32GB of memory
• A single central power supply
• A 5-port Gigabit Ethernet switch
• 2 x 500GB scratch discs

and a whole bunch more…

Extra credit reading:

GigaOm – Exclusive: Dell Shows Off a Data Center — In a Briefcase!

The Register –  Dell chief stuffs data center into suitcase

Pau for now…

Last Friday I got together with Michael Cote of Red Monk and John Willis of Canonical for a podcast.  We met up at a nearby coffee shop and chatted about a whole bunch o’ stuff.

You can listen to the actual podcast on Cote’s blog.

Some of the topics we tackle:

• What I’ll be doing at Dell as Cloud Evangelist.
• Dell’s cloud building business, focused on a small group of hyper-scale customers (Azure and Facebook being a couple I can name), delivering a high volume of highly customized machines for these customers.
• Some of the learnings we’ve gained with working with this group.
• Our intent to take this effort to a much wider group of customers and offer complete cloud solutions made up of hardware, third party software, a reference architecture and services.
• Dell’s other major cloud effort:  providing Support services as a service.
• Recent industry events and upcoming cloud conferences.
• And last, but not least, John and Cote introduce me to the wild and wonderful world of Pokens.

Pau for now..

At last year’s Oracle financial meeting, Larry Ellison went on rant on the over-hyping of the term “cloud computing:”

I can’t think of anything that isn’t cloud computing with all of these announcements.  The computer industry is the only industry that is more fashion-driven than women’s fashion. Maybe I’m an idiot, but I have no idea what anyone is talking about. What is it? It’s complete gibberish. It’s insane. When is this idiocy going to stop?

Well its been a year later and the abuse of the term cloud has gone from bad to worse.  As a result, when Mr. Ellison appeared at the  Churchill Club last week and the question of Oracle’s possible demise at the hand of the cloud came up, he became a bit animated.  Enjoy!

(I love Ed Zander’s bemusement and reactions)

A man of few words

Of note is Larry’s succinct definition of cloud computing:  “A computer attached to a network.”  And its business model? “Rental.”

Pau for now…

Mark Shuttleworth, founder of Ubuntu and the head of Canonical, the commercial entity behind the popular linux distribution, is currently making his rounds in the States.  Yesterday he was quite busy,  taking the stage at both the Intel Developer Forum in San Francisco as well as at  LinuxCon up in Portland Oregon.

Today he popped by Dell here in Austin to chat.  I grabbed him for a few minutes right before lunch. Here is the result:

Some of the topics Mark tackles:

• The release yesterday of Dell’s Mini netbook with Ubuntu Moblin Remix – Developer Edition. (More details on the release from the Dell blog.)
• Mark’s keynote yesterday at Linuxcon and the themes of cadence, quality and design.
• His kerfluffle with the Debian community around release schedules.
• The cloud-related goals for next month’s Ubuntu 9.10 release, Karmic Koala:
  • To be able to deploy your own cloud across 5-10 servers in 15 mins to an hour
  • Be able to enable private clouds that are completely EC2 compatible
  • Ability to create a library of virtual appliances that will deploy on EC2 or private clouds
• The announcement earlier this week of the 10.04 Long Term Support (LTS) release named “Lucid Lynx.”
• Mark’s thoughts on Windows 7 or as he calls it, “the wonderful Service Pack for Vista.”
• How long until profitability.

Pau for now…

I was scrolling through my blog reader and came across a post by Dave Rosenburg that piqued my interest: “KDDI chooses 3 Terra for cloud infrastructure.”  Having lived in Japan many moons ago I’m always interested in getting updates on whats happening in tech over there and since this involved the cloud, I was doubly piqued.

Gaijin Clouds gathering

Turns out that KDDI, the number 2 telecom provider in Japan (which makes them pretty humongous) has not only become a cloud provider as of late but have gone with gaijin technology to do so.  KDDI’s recently launched “KDDI Cloud Server Service” is powered by  3Tera’s Applogic cloud compute platform.  According to the 3Tera press release:

Initial offerings include virtual systems and virtual private data centers run at the KDDI Telehouse domestic data centers. This allows KDDI to offer both Infrastructure-as-a-Service and Platform-as a-Service solutions, where customers can run their existing applications on the IT platform or use KDDI’s prepared applications to significantly lower their initial investment and operational costs.

As Dave points out in his blog, its interesting not only to see a Japanese company  embrace the cloud but using outside technology to do so.

KDDI has made a big step forward, it will be interesting to see what the uptake is like.

Fun facts to know and tell: The word for cloud in Japan (kumo) is the same word for spider (kumo).  Now the characters used for both are different and the Japanese use the English word “cloud” when talking about cloud computing but still, I’m looking forward to getting the chance to present on cloud computing in Japan and make some bad pun involving the two.  Corny?  Yes, but that’s how I roll.

Pau for now….

Last but not least in my series of video’s from last month’s Cloud World/Open Source World I present to you Ken Oestreich, VP of Product marketing at Egenera.  I grabbed some time with Ken to learn about Engenera, the cloud and how they’re working with Dell.

Some of the topics that Ken tackles:

• While a hypervisor abstracts software, Egenera’s PAN manager abstracts the “plumbing” e.g. NIC cards, switches, host bus adaptor cards etc.
• PAN manager allows you to consolidate networks, fail-over entire machines and, in the case of disaster recovery, recover and reproduce entire compute environments.
• Egenera is working with Dell in the form of the Dell PAN system to provide agility in your infrastructure.
• This Infrastructure as a Service system can be used inside or outside your firewall.
• What developments Ken is most excited about in the upcoming year.

Extra-credit reading

• News from last Friday:  Egenera Partners With Dell For Data Center In A Box

Pau for now…

I’m getting down to the end of the videos I recorded last month at Cloud World/Open Source World and I’ve saved some of the best for last.  My penultimate interview is with Michael Crandell, CEO of Right Scale.

Right Scale, based in sunny Santa Barbara California, makes a cloud management platform that provides greater control over the cloud and makes it easy for companies to begin to migrate applications to the cloud or start building new ones there.  See what Michael has to say…

Some of the stuff Michael discusses:

• Right Scale focuses on three things: 1) Automation, 2) Providing a library of cloud ready solutions, 3) doing all this in an open and transparent way that allows portability among cloud platforms.
• How Right Scale came to be.  Their founder was teaching a class at UCSB about how to build an ecommerce site.  Amazon granted him some free compute time to use in his class.  He realized he needed a framework for managing and monitoring the classes usage, he also realized there was a business to built around this idea…
• Where Right Scale will be putting its efforts in the up coming year:
  • Supporting more cloud platforms as the come online
  • Increasing their partner program and their cloud-ready solutions
  • Increasing support for enterprise level editions and features e.g. security and compliance, user control, billing, metering…

Extra-Credit reading:

• Right Scale part 1: Mickos joins and control moves up the stack
• Right Scale part 2: Why the Cloud?  Apple Fanboys and server suffrage

Pau for now…

The CEO and founder of GoGrid, John Keagy, made an interesting assertion at Cloud World/Open Source World: over the next decade, the IT economy will shrink from $1.5 trillion to $500 billion.  I thought this was an interesting statement so I followed up with him after his talk and we sat down for a quick interview:

Some of the things John talks about:

• GoGrid plays in the Infrastructure on demand space and has been doing so since 2002.
• They work with partners in the layers above infrastructure and don’t have plans to venture north.
• The IT economy shrinkage will be driven by automation and reduced capex (commodity hardware is a big component of this)
• Right now its hardly a competitive market in the IaaS space (“its GoGrid and a bookstore”) so you can expect to see prices drop as the competition heats up.
• If you’re not doing your test and development and QA in the cloud, your not engaging in best practices.

Pau for now…

I was perusing John Willis’ list of links yesterday and I came across a cool piece done by Datamation.com entitled, 85 Cloud Computing Vendors Shaping the Emerging Cloud.

No turning back

The article which supplies short profiles of 85 cloud players, isn’t wishy-washy about what it believes is the inevitability of the cloud model.  While it feels there will both a backlash against cloud-mania as well as a well publicized disaster the article states:

Still, the bad news won’t kill the cloud. We can’t ever go back to enclosed datacenters. The cloud is simply easier, faster and more flexible.

“Who says Dell is just a hardware firm?”

Dell comes in at number 10 on the list of the fab 85.  One of the big focuses of the Dell section is Dell’s Datacenter Solutions Group (which I am a part of):

…the company launched DCS – Data Center Solutions – to target an audience of businesses that need help configuring a cloud-based datacenter. DCS handles everything from optimization to project management to global consulting. Who says Dell is just a hardware firm? Referring to DCS, Dell CEO Michael Dell toldBusinessweek in 2008 that, “We created a whole new business just to build custom products for those customers. Now it’s a several-hundred-million-dollar business, and it will be a billion-dollar business in a couple of years—it’s on a tear.”

It also keys in on some of Dell’s recent acquisitions in this space:

Dell has made a number of acquisitions to build out the software side of its cloud offering, including Everdream (desktop management software), Silverback Technologies (remote monitoring) and Message One (email management). The goal, it appears: provide one-stop shopping for businesses that want to build an automated datacenter running commodity boxes, all optimized for the cloud. That is likely a lucrative strategy.

If they think this is cool stuff, wait until they see what we have planned

Pau for now…

Reductive Labs, the company behind Puppet, recently received $2 million in funding.  Puppet, a framework for automating system administration across the network at scale, allows an admin to build and configure a passel of servers in a period of hours rather than months.

Earlier this month at Cloud World/Open Source World I sat down with Luke Kanies of Reductive Labs to learn more about Puppet, who uses it and what they plan to do with all that money.

Some of the stuff Luke talks about:

• In the cloud you can turn on 100s or 1000s of servers at the click of a mouse, but what happens when you want to configure them?
• Users include Red Hat, Sun, Dell, Rackspace and Google.  Google manages their entire corporate infrastructure with Puppet.
• No GUI for you!  Puppet has its own simple language that you use to program your infrastructure and then Puppet runs it across your entire infrastructure.  The language is based on Perl + Ruby + Nagios.
• A good portion on the $2 million will be spent on building some GUI tools (along with a little sales and marketing)
• Puppet is 100% open source and based on Ruby.  There are no commercial features (yet).
• Puppet has a pretty vibrant community: 1,200 – 1,400 on the user list along with what could be the largest system focused IRC channel.

Pau for now…

At Cloud World/Open Source World earlier this month I grabbed some time with Forrester’s “Mr. Cloud” James Staten.  I wanted to get his take on Cloud Computing and what was hot and what is not.  Here is the result.

Some of the things James talks about:

• How the conversation about cloud has changed over the last year.
• He spends a lot of time telling people what the cloud is not.
• The three things they’ve learned (coming soon to Forrester report near you):
  • First thing to do in the cloud is test and development
  • Organizations can take short term web promotions and marketing efforts and drop them into the cloud (witness Wendy’s 99c promotion)
  • Put apps that are triggered by revenue into the cloud
• Rather that “Public vs Private” clouds, Forrester segments it into “internal vs. hosted vs. public
• Cloud is not an all or nothing proposition, it’s another tool in the toolkit.

Pau for now…

I first met Chander Kant, CEO of open source cloud back provider Zmanda, last year at the MySQL conference.  At that time we did an audio interview.  Just like Jonathan, this time around I caught him on “film.”

This is the fourth out of nine interviews I conducted earlier this month at Cloud World/Open Source World.

Some of the things Chander talks about:

• Thanks to open source and the cloud, Zmanda is able to provide “radically simple to use and cost effective” back-up software.
• Zmanda had its roots in a project out the University of Maryland back in ‘91.
• How Chander got the idea to build a business around this project.
• How the cloud is a good fit for secondary and tertiary storage.
• Cloud storage is often people’s first foray into the cloud.  One reason is the ease of billing.
• Why a publisher moved their storage to the cloud.

But wait there’s more…

Stay tuned for five more interviews from Cloud World/Open Source World coming soon to this URL:

Pau for now…

Earlier this month at Cloud World/Open World I bumped into Jonathan Bryce one of the two founders of the cloud platform formerly known as “Mosso”  (now known as Rackspace Cloud). 

Last year when I interviewed Jonathan, I did an audio podcast.  This time around I was armed with my Flip Mino and caught it all on video for the little(r) screen.

Some of the topics Jonathan addresses:

• When Rackspace funded employees Jonathan and Todd to go off and start their cloud venture 4 years ago, why didn’t they brand it “Rackspace?”
• Why did they recently decide to roll Mosso back into the mothership and rebrand it?
• The progression of in-house -> colocation -> managed hosting -> cloud.
• The three pieces of Rackspace Cloud: Cloud Servers & Cloud Files (infrastructure as a service) and Cloud Sites (platform as a service with the option of using either the LAMP or .NET stack).
• Which offering is getting the most traction.
• Why their customer Fresh Books went with Cloud Files.

Pau for now…

James Urquhart of Cisco and author of “The Wisdom of Clouds” blog on Cnet, gave a talk last week at Cloud World entitled, “Virtualization to Cloud.”  I wanted to capture some of the topics he talked about and learn a bit more so I grabbed him for a podcast after he got off stage.  Here is the result…

Some of the topics James tackles:

• Whereas four months ago the question was  ”What is cloud”  the conversation has recently shifted to “how can I replicate some of the success stories that I’ve heard about?”
• One effect of the cloud is that has greatly lowered the VC capital that start-ups require to get set up and going.
• Internal IT needs to realize they are no longer delivering a product but are delivering a service.   To be of value to the business they don’t have to wire servers, they can help them through the process of getting the right compute power for each app.
• Regulatory and industry standards will  be what dicates the speed of the evolution of the cloud, not technology.

Pau for now…

On the first day of Open Source World/Cloud World/Etc World I attended Brian Aker’s talk entitled “Drizzle, Rethinking MySQL for the Web.”  For those not in the know, Drizzle is a reworking of the MySQL database to slim it down and make it more appropriate for web-infrastructure and cloud computing .  I caught up with Brian after his talk to learn a little bit more about Drizzle, where its come from and where its going.

Some of the topics that Brian tackles:

• Looking at what customer needs were not being addressed by MySQL.
• Stripping stuff out of MySQL and setting up Drizzle as a microkernel design that modules can be added to.
• One of the main goals was to allow greater community involvement in the development (currently Sun folks only make up 6-7% of those making contributions).
• Is Drizzle production ready?
• What cloud bits have been contributed to the project?
• Why the name “Drizzle”?

Update:  Here’s the Register article based on this entry.

Pau for now…

Last week I headed out to San Francisco to attend the event formerly known as Linux World.  This year the annual fete was renamed “OpenSource World” and combined with a few other events to form: “OpenSource World/Next Generation DataCenter/Cloud World/North American Bass Fishing World” (ok, Im joking about the last one).

Trans America, a flatiron and Armani.

Dell kicked it off

The opening day keynote was provided by Dell.  In all honesty, it wasn’t our best effort.  It was particularly tricky since the speaker who was supposed to deliver the presentation had a medical emergency and Judy Chavis, director for business development and global alliances at Dell  had to step up and pinch hit at the 11th hour.  Here are two pieces written about the keynote, one more positive than the other.

Chinatown, Clouds and Cable Car

Not exactly jam packed

Yerba Buena, the Metreon and the Marriott

Pau for now…

Today we felt like day trippin’ so I got out our central Texas guide book and picked a destination:  Wimberley.  This town of ~5,000 is about an hour south of Austin and is made up of an interesting mix of artists and ranchers.  We had no idea what to expect but were pleasantly surprised by the lush river trail and the cute town center.

Here are a few pics from our adventure:

The three monkeys in the lead as we start off on the river trail.

Pretty lush for central texas during one of the worst droughts in decades.

KInda felt like we were down on the Bayou.

Yes, the walls of this house are made of bottles.

No room at the old Salty Chicken.

Pau for now…

This afternoon I finished my first week at Dell.  Needless to say it was a bit of whirlwind, but hey, I haven’t quit yet .

I spent the week trying to get set up — fighting with printers, getting used to Microsoft Vista, figuring out how to put my laptop to sleep etc. — as well as meeting with a slew of people who I will be working with going forward.

On Day 2 the Datacenter Solutions group, which I’m a part of, had their second half of the year kick-off.  It was a good opportunity to see where the group has come from and where they’re going.  This team has done/is doing some pretty impressive things with some of the world’s most humongous cloud providers.

My cube at the end of Day 1. No phone but a laptop and monitor.

The folks I met with were both within and outside the Datacenter team.   Outside of the Datacenter folks, I met with analyst relations, PR, members of Dell’s social media team, a former Sun compadre and even randomly ran into and had lunch with a neighbor.  I’ve been very impressed with how friendly and nice everyone’s been.  It will take a little while to learn the subtleties of the culture but it seems to be pretty WYSIWYG.

Parmer 2, the building I work in. (Note the clouds. Coincidence? I think not)

Next week I’m in the office on Monday and then off with the Datacenter Solutions chief architect and a few people from Dell’s open source team to Cloud World/Open Source World/Next Generation Datacenter in San Francisco (the event formally known as Linux World).  Dell has a keynote as well as a couple of talks and a booth.  It will be a good opportunity for me to learn more about what Dell’s doing in the space as well as meeting with folks in the industry in my new role as Cloud Evangelist.

Let the wild rumpus start.

Building 1 on the Round Rock campus.

One of the call centers for customer support.

Teammate Drew, patent holder and product planner, who has the good fortune of sitting across the aisle from me.

Pau for now…

Monday morning I’m starting a new gig.  I will be joining Dell as their cloud computing evangelist.

So what’s that mean?

As the cloud computing evangelist I will act as Dell’s ambassador to the cloud computing community (not sure if the sash is provided or if I have to supply my own).  I will also work with analysts and press and be responsible for messaging as well as Dell’s cloud blog.

Dell, who provides the infrastructure for the major cloud players from Google to Amazon to Salesforce, is about to kick their cloud computing effort up a notch and Im very glad to be part of the team!

Stay tuned for more.

Pau for now…

Earlier this summer, XML co-inventor and director of Web Technologies at Sun, Tim Bray was asked to give a convocation speech at his Alma Mater.

The whole speech is excellent, but the part that particularly resonated with me was his “Law of Explanation”

The first half says “When you’re explaining something to somebody and they don’t get it, that’s not their problem, it’s your problem.” Anything that’s important, that’s deep enough to matter, is probably not self-evident; it’s going to require a lot of explanation, and that’s an essential part of your job.

The second half says “When someone’s explaining something to you and you’re not getting it, that’s not your problem, it’s their problem.”  The effect of this one is that you have to do a very courageous thing: say “No, I don’t understand.”

Very well captured.

Pau for now…