Transcript

Pamela: Hello, this is Pamela Slim and I’m really excited to have a conversation with somebody who is very special to me, Carmen Sognonvi, who I have known now for probably four years, I think, something like that, four or five years.

And what we wanted to talk about today in the form of a conversation, and maybe some of the questions and interviews that I could be giving to Carmen, is really to examine what is meaningful work and looking particularly at Carmen’s own journey by understanding some of the different transitions that she made and what were the thoughts behind those decisions and transitions; what can we really learn about the new world of work?

So, Carmen, I am so glad to be having this conversation with you!

Carmen: So am I, I’m thrilled!

Pamela: So, why don’t we start at the beginning, kind of maybe catch us up on the first chapter of your life, you know, where you come from, where did you end up in that first stage of your career?

Carmen: Sure.

So when I was in college, for a long time, I wanted to be a journalist, that’s kind of what I thought I really wanted to do.

And then senior year came around and like a lot of people in my school, I was kind of brainwashed into thinking that if I don’t become a banker or a consultant, then I’m basically a waste of space in this world.

So, unfortunately I kind of, you know, left the journalism track and got a job at an investment bank and that was my first job out of college.

Quickly realized it wasn’t really for me and kind of bounced around doing different things, so I was working in marketing for a while and then kind of stumbled into ad sales, and was really bouncing around not really sure of what I wanted.

And then basically around that time, I started developing a really strong interest in race and identity and then that kind of led to the next phase of my career.

Pamela: So what, just to understand where, like where you were first born and then where you grew up, you went to school in New York, is that right?

Carmen: Yes.

So I was born in Hong Kong and moved around a lot as a kid.

My mom’s from Hong Kong, my dad’s from Belgium.

And so we lived in Belgium for a while, lived in Mainland China for a while.

Most of my life I grew up in Hong Kong, and then I moved to New York City for college, and then I’ve basically been here ever since.

Pamela: Okay, so that was where you got on that track of consultant, banker, or nothing.

Carmen: Yes.

Or go home!

Pamela: And so what were those early inklings?

In particular, thinking about race and identity, what were the kinds of questions that were driving your interest and then what did you end up doing with them?

Carmen: Yeah, I mean, for me, it was definitely a very personal interest.

You know, growing up biracial, I’ve always had to think about race, it kind of wasn’t a choice, because people would always ask me, ìWhat are you?î

You know, ìWhat’s your background?î whatever.

And so I always kind of had to confront this.

And so, I, you know, was really interested in seeing how the experiences of other multiracial people, how they compared to mine.

In 2002, my sister and I actually startedóthis was kind of pre-blogging, so I would call it an online magazine and community for people of mixed Asian and white heritage, since that was kind of the experience we were most familiar with and we had a lot of friends from that background, we kind of created a site around that.

And it did really well in terms of, you know, my sister was 14 at the time, and this was actually her idea, so she’s kind of the genius.

And so it grew very quickly and so I started writing some articles about race, specifically as it related to that.

And then pretty quickly that felt a little bit limiting, to only talk about that very specific experience.

So then I was interested in, you know, multiracial identity in general and then also related to that, obviously, multiracial people often come from interracial couples and families, and how, you know, racial dynamics played out in that larger context.

And so I created a blog with a friend of mine called Mixed Media Watch, which examined media representations of multiracial people and mixed-race families and couples in the media.

And that was kind of my first foray into a real blog.

Pamela: And that, interestingly, does really piggyback on your background and interest in journalism, right?

Carmen: Yeah.

Pamela: Looking at media and writing.

So did that feel like coming home in a way?

What did that feel like in order to be utilizing those skills that you were interested in and everybody told you that you shouldn’t be focusing on?

What did it feel like when you actually put it into practice?

Carmen: Yeah, it’s interesting.

I think I wasn’t really conscious of that parallel until later on when I went back to think about it.

And I realized that, you know what?

It’s kind of like, why did I want to be into journalism or why did I want to get into journalism?

I really enjoyed writing and I really was interested in kind of exploring the world and maybe finding a way to explain it to myself and to other people.

And so, yeah, thinking back, absolutely, it’s kind of like the things that in my mind, I was like, ìI need to be a journalist, because this is the path that I’m familiar with.î

But in reality, what I really was trying to get out of that, I was able to get out from doing the blogging.

So, you know, that’s kind of a theme that I’m really interested in because I think very often we get very stuck in these ideas of, well, if you want to be a writer, this is the career path.

If you want to teach, this is the career path.

And you don’t realize that, well, what’s really at the heart of it?

You know, what is it about that path that you’re really drawn to and is that the only way to get to, from point A to point B? And usually there’s a multitude of ways that we’re only trained to think of one very specific path.

Pamela: Yeah.

Well, and what was the response of friends, family, colleagues when they heard that you were spending all of this timeófor free, right?

Carmen: Um-hm.

Pamela: Just doing this work and creating a blog.

What kind of response did you get from people?

Carmen: Well, I think at first people thought it was cool.

And then, you know, as I kind of got more and more deeply invested in this work, I really felt like this is something I need to pursue.

I’m not sure where this is going to take me, but I want to keep going with this and I want to see where this takes me.

Now, in order to do that, I couldn’t really pursue like a real life career at the same time, during my 9 to 5.

And so that’s the point at which I think some people lost me.

The big transition came, I was working at this publishing company that published a variety of things in the interior design space.

And at the time I was selling ads; I was terrible at this, terrible salesperson.

And quite frankly, I was this close to getting fired, and I knew it.

And I was like, ìOh, crap! I don’t know what I’m going to do.î

And then it just happened that our office manager left and her position opened up and I was like, ìHuh, I wonder if I could do that?î

Because I realized that she was probably making the same amount of money that I am, you know, and I’m busting my assó

Oh, I’m sorry, can we say ass?

Pamela: No.

It’s all right.

Carmen: And I’m busting my butt trying to do this thing that I’m really bad at, when, you know, being an office manager, that’s something I could do.

I’m an organized person, I kind of like to, you know, keep things neat and, you know, like to smooth things out and make things efficient.

It kind of went with my natural personality and skill set.

So I was like, ìLet me just try this.î

At first it was just to save my butt so that I could still get a paycheck.

But then once I was in that position, I was like, ìOh, this is kind of sweet, this whole admin/office thing, because the hours are good, I can make a good living, and I still have plenty of time to focus on the other stuff.î

And so that, in terms of my 9-to-5 career, that’s the path I went down.

So I went from office manager to being an executive assistant to the publisher of one of the major magazines at Hearst.

So I did that for a few years.

And then I realized that I could actually make more money doing this if I worked at a hedge fund.

So then I was an executive assistant at a hedge fund for a few years, basically doing the same function, but then that created a lot of time and also mental space for me to dedicate to this other work.

So I think at the point where I went on this office/admin route, that’s when I think my friends kind of lost me.

And they were kind of like, ìWhat is going on?î

Like, ìYou have a degree from Columbia, why are you a secretary?î

Like, ìWhat’s happening?î

And I didn’t really have a good answer. I just knew that it just felt right to me at the time.

Pamela: Yeah.

Because that is so funny, how a lot of those factors can start to come into play, about what would be an appropriate work situation, when you think about the kinds of things that you’re balancing.

In this case it was the beginning of a much deeper piece of your body of work that you were working on, which was work around race and identity.

And like you were saying, you need that creative energy in order to do that work.

And you were doing a good job, fulfilling all your responsibilities during the day, but really making a conscious choice about how did you want to be putting the different pieces together?

Earning a living and at the same time, you know, having the energy and the time in order to work on what you’re working on on the side?

But for a lot of people, that does get caught up a lot in social identity and the career path and what it is that you’re supposed to do.

Carmen: Yep.

Pamela: So did it bother you?

I mean, were there days when you’re like, ìWhat am I doing?î and ìAm I wasting my time?î

I mean, what was going on in your head?

Or were you just excited about what you were doing and didn’t care?

Carmen: Yeah, you know, I think, most days I was just, I didn’t really have enough time to kind of sit down and think about it, honestly, because I was just kind of like go, go, go, go, go.

You know, because I was doing the job and then I was blogging, and then I was like squeezing in like media interviews, and then using all my vacation days to do speaking engagements.

So most days, I didn’t really have time to sit down and really stop and think about it.

But don’t get me wrong, there were definitely those days where I was like, ìThis job sucks.î

Because if anyone has worked as someone’s assistant, you’ll know that there are some days where you just have to do the most, like, boring tasks or that, you know, sometimes you have to deal with jerks.

Luckily for me, it wasn’t usually my boss that was the jerk, it was usually, you know, customers of his or clients of his and other people that I had to deal with.

So, there were definitely days where I was like, ìReally? Like is this what I should be doing?î

But then I was getting so much fulfillment outside of my 9 to 5 job that those feelings tended to pass pretty quickly.

Pamela: So from that point, you were doing the Media Watch blog and then you developedóand you cofounded another blog?

With somebody else?

Also around race and race relations?

Carmen: Yeah.

So basically Mixed Media Watch I cofounded with my friend, Jen Chau, and that actually eventually morphed into, we re-launched it as a blog called Racialicious, which is still the name of the blog today.

And it still exists.

Still a very thriving community and blog over there.

And then basically it evolved beyond just like a multiracial lens into looking at race and pop culture in general, the intersection of the two.

And yeah, that’s one thing, you know, really took off.

And I basically started doing a lot more speaking engagements around a lot of different colleges, universities around the country.

Eventually that led to some work doing kind of more training things with corporations and non-profits.

And so it was becoming a little bit of a business.

And say a little bit, because it never quite got to where I was hoping it would be, but yeah, I was starting to actually make a bit of a living at doing this other thing, which was really cool because I never had a really, a grand plan or a grand vision for what exactly this was going to become.

So basically, eventually I started making a bit of money doing the work that I actually really enjoyed.

Pamela: Yeah.

Well, and then interestingly, at that point, which is another bit of a fork in the road, right?

As you look at your career path, had you chosen, you could have really gone into that full on, right?

Really, really.

You were getting press exposure, you were on CNN, you were, you know, writing for different very popular blogs.

You had the early stage business signals that could say that if you chose to, you could really position yourself to be a consultant, speaker, etc. on this topic.

And then you chose to go a different direction.

So what happened and why did you do that?

Carmen: So a couple years before I made, I took the fork in the road, my husband and I actually opened a martial arts school together.

At the time, I thought of it more as his business, but I was always involved from day one, you know, helping with, especially on the marketing and promotions and kind of operations side, since I’m not the martial artist, he is.

So I kind of, you know, helped a lot in that regard.

So for a couple years I was not only working a day job, but I was also, you know, doing all of the race work.

And then on top of that, I was basically helping to run a small business.

And, you know, eventually I decided thatówell, I got pregnant.

Let’s not forget that, that was one of the first things.

So, I got pregnant, that changed a lot of things.

And so I decided after I had the baby I wasn’t going to return to the day job because there was no way I could juggle a day job, two businesses, and a baby, that just wasn’tóI mean, there’s going to be women that can do it, but I wasn’t one of them.

So I decided I was not going to go back to my day job.

So then my plan was, okay, now I’m going to do full time the race and diversity work and I’m still going to help out with the martial arts school, and be a mom.

And so the realization that I had came about because, as you probably remember, I was working on a book proposal, along with some of the things you mentioned, the media appearances, the corporate gigs, blah, blah, blah, there came a lot of interest from book agents.

So I was working on a proposal and this was going to beówhat did we used to call it?

Like the bigó

Pamela: The big book on race.

Carmen: Yes!

It was going to be the big book on race.

And I was working on it and it was just like an incredibly painful process. And at first I just thought, ìWell, this is just what it’s like to write a book.î

It’s not a fun process, I saw you go through it, and I was like, ìAll right, this is normal.î

And then after a while, I realized, you know what?

Occasionally I would get these like little, like this thought would kind of flutter through my mind, and then before it had time to fully form, I would just like brush it away.

And basically this thought was, ìAre you sure you want to be doing this any more?î

You know, ìAre you sure that you’re still into this any more?î

But I literally, for months, I wouldn’t even sit down to see what the thought actually was, it was just like, ìNo, let me focus on this. No, let me do this.î

Because this is who I am, my identity was completely wrapped up with the work that I did because I’d been doing this, by this time it had been nearly ten years of working on race and identity and everyone knew me as that, from my friends to my colleagues, to people all around, you know, they knew me as the race person.

And I thought of myself very much in those terms as well.

And then one day I basically let the thought just land and I kind of turned it over. And I was like, ìHmm, what if I were to do something else? Is this something I want to keep doing?î

And the minute that I actually allowed myself to acknowledge that thought is when I realized that, you know what?

I’m kind of lying to myself because I just don’t have the same kind of burning passion I did back in those early days, when I couldn’t wait to get home and like blog about some TV show I had just seen and why it was so problematic.

You know, I couldn’t wait to get out on the road and talk to students, I couldn’t wait to do an interview with a newspaper so I could explain what needed to change in this country.

You know, that real burning desire was gone.

And I also realized that I feltóthe reason it was so hard to work on this book is because I felt like I’d already said everything I had to say.

And if I kept going, I was kind of just starting to phone it in.

And I realized, you know what?

This is not really fair to my community and this is also not fair toóat the time there were other people involved with the blog who were very passionate about it and who had a lot of ideas.

And often I was kind of holding them back, you know, like, ìOh, hold on, guys, this doesn’t really fit with the direction I’m going in and my vision so let’s hold off on that.î

And I realized I wasn’t fair on them because they were ready to go and I was basically holding them back.

And if my heart wasn’t truly in it anymore, then was it fair for me to just hang onto this position?

And so I think sometimes, first of all, it’s very hard when you areówhen your identity is wrapped up with your work.

It’s very hard to come to terms for yourself, that you can be someone other than who you’re used to thinking of yourself as.

And then also, I think it takes some letting go of ego to realize that it doesn’t have to be you doing this work, you know?

That it doesn’t have to be Carmen.

It can be Latoya.

It can be Andrew.

It can be any of those people, they have important things to say and at some point you’re just getting in the way and it’s time to step aside.

And so that’s, you know, those are some of the reasons, there were a lot of complicated things going on at the same time, but I think that was really one of the big realizations I came to.

Pamela: And so what did you decide to do?

Carmen: So I basically decided to ìretireî from the race work.

So I actually sold the blog to Latoya Peterson, who is now the owner and the editor.

She had already been editing it for a long time.

So I sold it to her basically for zero dollars, but, you know, just to have a paper trail.

And then I decided to just basically shut down all the other stuff, the speaking and the consulting, and the media work that I was doing.

And I decided to work full time on the martial arts school, or the martial arts that my husband and I had started.

And I think for a lot of people it was a very strange transition, because every knew me as the race person and now I was becoming a full-time business owner.

And I think that people that know me well don’t see this as so strange, because they’ll know that I’ve always been passionate about marketing.

That’s always been, you know, when I have, when I do fun reading, I read marketing blogs and books.

Like that’s fun for me.

So people who know me well, you know, don’t think it’s strange.

But I think a lot of people looking in from the outside were like, ìWhat is going on? Like, this is so random and unrelated to anything you’re doing.î

So, yeah, it was definitely a big transition.

Pamela: Well, and what’s interesting though to me, it is in how, helping to tell the story in many ways, is you’re telling the story at different points of transition you had for your market.

But what’s also interesting is that when you look at any kind of work, in this case you were an advocate writing about race and diversity and working with people around that topic, but the martial arts school that you run is a very diverse environment and in many ways, you’re putting into practice, I would imagine, talking with many different parents, talking with kids from different backgrounds, understanding a lot of different perspectives.

And also probablyótell me if I’m wrong in thisóbut choosing to market in such a way that it’s actually reflecting the suggestions that you are making in general about, you know, how things need to be represented in the media and elsewhere.

Carmen: Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, there’s a lot of parallels and, you know, there’s some of the things that I would be talking or writing about in theory, we’re kind of living day to day in a very grass roots way with the martial arts school.

And you’re right, it’s an extremely diverse group because we are in this neighborhood in Brooklyn, New York that’s at the intersection of a lot of different ethnic communities.

And some of those communities are long established, some are very new immigrants.

And so we’ve got students from so many different countries that speak so many different languages, as well as just also a lot of students that have, you know, their families have been in this country for generations and generations.

So, there’s a lot of, you know, ethnic, you know, national origin, racial diversity, and yeah, absolutely, we are kind of living it in a way that, you know, like you said, we’re kind of putting theory into practice.

Pamela: Well, and it’s so interesting that way, too, though, as you see the shift and again, where the social pressure can come in sometimes.

There can be internalized.

There can be a partóI remember having conversations with you about thisóa parallel for me, as you know, is running the capoeira school for a really long time as a volunteer, but I very much had that identity.

Nobody could imagine that I wouldn’t be teaching and reading programs and doing things within capoeira.

And I had a very similar kind of realization, that at a certain point I knew that I was ready to go, but it also felt really good to be looked at in that position.

You know, the story I would tell myself is, you know, ìThe kids need me,î and I do, we did have a tight relationship, and it was really hard when I shifted and left.

But at the same time, a lot of that was just my own thought about what my identity was and being able to leave that when you’re able to recognize it, I think that’s a really great insight and a skill that then you can use as you’re going to be going through a whole number of different stages in your life and your career.

Because even when you shifted in to running the school full time, but then I was kind of laughing and winking to myself, not content with just doing one thing, you began to also, began to blog about local business marketing.

Carmen: Yes.

Pamela: And sharing with those that you’re learningó

Carmen: I couldn’t stay away.

Pamela: Is she incapable of having a ****

Carmen: Once a blogger, always a blogger.

Pamela: Like, it’s impossible.

But in many ways, when you start to see this growth and emergence, from what it looks like on the outside, it’s really just listening to yourself and listening to what is it that’s truly of interest, where can you make the most impact?

Taking care of things that are important to you, like your family, when you have different transitioning into the role of being a mom, wanting to have more flexibility, right?

Wanting to have focus in one project and then getting energized in order to be working on sharing that information, going back to all the skill and experience that you built up, you know, as a blogger.

It really appears that that’s kind of how you’re building it.

And I’m wondering, the more that you go through these different stages, do you feel freer in terms of making choices that you think are important to you regardless of what people think of your choices?

Carmen: Yeah, I think I do feel freer.

And I’m not sure how much of that has to do with experiences versus just age, of just getting older and caring less about what people think.

That could very well have to do with it as well.

But, yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, the thing that strikes me is a lot of people I see get stuck in this area.

And I’ve seen it even with our staff members.

So we had, for example, a great young woman who was working at our front desk at the martial arts school and she was really great at her job, but her passion was really, she wanted to be a teacher and she really wanted to work with kids.

And, you know, we would tell her, ìHey, we’re thinking of launching this after school program,î which is, you know, going to obviously be, you know, all about martial arts but at the same time we do a lot of work in character development, and that’s actually something that’s a requirement for students to do specific things related to that in order to be able to test for their belts.

You know, I’m sure you’re familiar with that, Pam.

And so, you know, we would let her know, like, you know, ìThis could be a real opportunity for you to do something here.î

Now, basically as it turned out, you know, in her mind, the only way to become a teacher and work with kids was to finish school, get her Master’s degree in education and then go work at a public school.

So that was in her mind what needed to be done.

When in reality, if she had stuck around a couple more months, she could be doing exactly what she wanted to be doing at our school in a job she was already in.

And, you know, unfortunately things didn’t work out with her for just some personal things that she was going through, you know, unrelated to the career goals that she had.

But it really makes me sad because I see it over and over again, where we’re very used to these scripts and these paths that are laid out for us.

And a lot of it, of course, has to do with pressure from our families, too, right?

Because, you know, we’re living in a very different world than our parents are used to.

And, you know, back then, it truly, you’re a success in life and career and financial success truly did have a lot to do with education.

You know, it was a much more kind of straight escalator if you got a college degree and maybe an advanced degree.

And that really would almost guarantee you a better life, especially financially.

Nowadays, it’s a very different story, but a lot of families still think that the old world, the old paradigm, still exists now.

And so that’s why I think a lot of people from my generation and also, especially younger people who are in their 20′s now, I see this happening all the time, where they kind of have these ideas of, ìI want to do A, B and C, therefore I have to go back to school and get into six figures of debt and then get a degree and then go into this field.î

And you don’t realize that if your passion is truly, for example, you know, in the case of this woman, to teach and work with kids, there are hundreds of career paths open to you where you can do that and possibly get much more enjoyment out of it because you’d have much more direct control over what you are able to do.

In a public school system, you’re teaching to the curriculum, you’re told what to do and there’s no deviation.

So, you know, that’s just one example of it, but I see it over and over again and I really hope that people will be able to see, you know, you need to kind of hone in on what, what’s the kernel that truly lies at the center of your passion?

And what are all the different ways to actually makeóget you to a point where you can do that kind of work?

Pamela: Yeah, when I was, after a trip to New York where I saw you, as a matter of fact, when I was talking about my new book, I was on the plane on the way back and I sat next to this gentleman who had come to the US from India, I think in like 1984.

And it was so funny because I didn’t mention at all what I was working on or my new book ideas or the fact that I was the Escape From Cubicle Nation lady, but he worked for a large company and he was really complaining to me about his kids.

And he was saying, you know, ìLike, young people today are so misguided,î and he said, ìMy son is in college and do you know what he does on the weekend? Him and his friends sit around and they’re playing around building websites and these businesses. It’s so terrible! Like they need to be focusing on one career and, you know, on engineering.î

He was so passionate about it.

And it was a little awkward for a while, but I really just tried to, for probably a couple hours, we were talking, because it was from New York to Phoenix.

But I really wanted to fully understand what his perspective was and it was so strong, sometimes in particular, for friends from India, or sometimes from Asia, can have a lot of cultural, really strong cultural roots as well in terms of education and type of education and type of profession.

But he was really convinced that it is the downfall of work place civilization that young people are not necessarily seeing how important it is to choose one path and to be, you know, picking a particular career.

And it was really interesting and I didn’t think it was a coincidence that I sat next to him, because that is such a strong perspective and what I appreciated about him is he was truly a loving parent, he cared so much about his kids and he actually had a huge passion about math.

And I was so excited when I finally got to that point in a conversation, because I was trying to figure out, where could we get to a place where he’s going to feel some power and not just feel like everything is doomed and everything is bad.

He started talking about how much he loves math and how the Starbucks where he goes, he teaches math to people who work there.

There’re some college students that he was starting to help with their math and of course, all of a sudden I got all excited and saw this whole vision of maybe how he could personally start to change that despair into empowerment by just working with people who did have that interest in the career path that he took.

I’m curious, what would you have said to him, if he was expressing that to you?

You know, about what his kids were doing.

How do you respond to sometimes those really entrenched views about the world of work?

Carmen: That’s a hard question because I’m torn between my loyalties of being an entrepreneur and being Asian, soójust kidding.

You know, I actually think that, I mean, obviously I wasn’t there for the whole conversation, but I actually do think that there is value in picking something and seeing it through.

Now, I think where you can get stuck is if you think that, you know, it’s this, ìOh, I have to go to school and then I’m going to get this job, and then this and this and this.î

But I do think that if you are feeling a passion about something, you should try to take it as far as you can, and you may not always know exactly what’s the destination.

But I do think it is important to have that follow through and not to just kind of zip around and dabble and dabble.

I mean, sometimes that works for people, but I do think that there needs to be still some kind of a theme or some kind of, you know, unifying pattern that kind of is where you’re moving towards a particular direction, if that makes sense.

Pamela: I always love to use martial art metaphors, which I know you’ll appreciate, but it makes so much sense to me from that perspective if you look at itóeven from a perspective of going through what it takes to accomplish a certain level belt.

And knowing that, I know for my son, when he first started, he did about a year of karate, he was really interested and we have a great school out here, and he really enjoyed it.

But towards the end, he really started to get to that place where he was like, ìOh, I don’t want to go, I’m not really interested.î

And partly what I helped, and really wanted him to do, was to just experience going all the way through to complete an entire year and also complete the course of what it took to do a belt.

Because I didn’t want to be the parent, you know, how ironic, who was like, ìYou have to do something you hate,î you know, ìbecause it’s what you should do.î

But at the same time, sometimes it’s hard to know exactly where to push and I wanted him, out of respect also to the teacher, who had put all that effort and energy, you know, into his training, to also feel like he completed one particular cycle and one belt.

And that’s often one of the things that I see with entrepreneurs or people in their career path, is they don’t give it enough time to really either create something, something that’s relevant, that they’re proud of.

In your case, you know, a blog, a really successful thriving school, processes and practices that you have in the way you run your business.

You know, there’s some concrete things that you really have developed over time that also allows you to walk through the awkward places where things may not feel quite right but at the same time, you know, you can be building things, you know, creating building blocks that are going to help you to get to where you want to go.

I think that the flip side of it is where you do have that discipline of saying, ìIf I am in my job as an executive assistant, you know, when I’m choosing to do this role, I’m really going to do the role and do it well.î

Right?

ìPut myself into it and make sure I really deliver.î

And the same thing for each thing that you’re doing.

So, that’s sometimes is a metaphor that can be helpful where people think about it in those terms and also realize that when you’re really developing an expertise.

Like you said, you called it your kernel, you know, I call it your root, whatever is that element of change and things that you want to see in the world, something that you’re really passionate about, in order to develop that, it’s often a really long time to develop that expertise and that experience.

Carmen: Yeah.

And I think also understanding that the zigzags that you take along the way to get there.

Pamela: Yeah.

Carmen: You’re going to pick up skills that you don’t realize how useful they’ll be until later on.

So, for example, my husband and I, both essentially worked dead end office jobs, if you want to call it that, in corporate America for about ten years.

And, you know, someone looking from the outside would be like, ìReally? That seems like that was such a waste of time.î

And you know, maybe in some ways, you know, it would’ve been nicer if we’d kind of found our calling quicker.

But at the same time, now looking back on it, one of the reasons that our school is successful is because of the experience we had working in the corporate world where we understand how to be professional.

We understand how to answer the phone, how to get back to people.

Like, little things like that, that you may take for granted.

Pamela: Yeah.

Carmen: But that, you know, we hold ourselves to a higher standard and we don’t just think, ìWell, as long as we’re doing a little better than that other martial arts school down the street, then we’re okay.î

We’re really thinking about, ìAll right, how can we create experiences that are on par with those you get from Fortune 500 companies or hopefully better?î

Since they have their own customer service issues.

So yes, sometimes you just don’t realize like how those skills are going to come into play.

And for example, a lot of the skills I picked up from being in the online space for so long, I’m now applying to our school in terms of the marketing and the social media work that we put in and we’re seeing a lot of benefits from that as well.

So you just kind of never know that, you know, life is funny how things kind of intersect and kind of work together.

Pamela: Well, it’s been a really fun journey to watch and it’s only just beginning, I think.

So do you have any idea what’s next?

Or do you have any inklings of any new ideas that I haven’t heard about before?

Carmen: Specifically and related to my path, you mean?

Pamela: Yeah, yeah, just for your career path.

Because now running a school and then have your local business marketing blog.

Carmen: I’m not to sure.

I mean, I think that there are a lot of ideas always bouncing around in my head of things, of issues that I’m kind of really interested in and passionate about.

And I think one of the things that’s kind of driving me crazy right now is I feel, I constantly see how small business owners are very easily victimized by people who are praying on their insecurities.

And I feel like we see this a lot.

Unfortunately we see this a lot in the martial arts profession, where there’s a lot ofópeople don’t realize this, but from a business perspective, the martial arts profession is very, you’re really similar to internet marketing.

In terms of the more like yellow highlighter, spammy side of internet marketing.

So, you know, you get a lot of these get-rich-quick schemes and these outlandish promises and these, like, ìOh, you can’t go it alone, it’s too dangerous out there!î

And it really makes me sad because a lot of the school owners I know and other local business owners I know, they have reached success because they’ve got a lot to bring to the table.

So it kind of annoys me when I see them kind of being talked down to and treated like idiots.

And especially when they start internalizing that and thinking, ìOh, man, maybe I do need a coach,î and you know, obviously I love coaching, like I coached with you for a long time.

But I also think that you need to pick the right person and know that, do they really have your right interests by heart?

And, yeah, I don’t know where I’m going with that, that was maybe just a random rant, but it’s something I’ve been thinking a lot lately.

Pamela: Which is how they begin, how the ideas begin to percolate.

Carmen: Yeah.

Pamela: Well, that’s really cool. I know whatever it is that you do, you’re going to really put yourself into it, so it’s really been a pleasure and a delight to watch.

And due to you, I also got back into mixed martial arts, so I’m thankful for that.

Carmen: Yes!

Pamela: Making an introduction here!

So you can find Carmen at CarmenSognonvi.com and Urban Martial Arts isó

Carmen: It’s UrbanDojo.com.

Pamela: UrbanDojo.com.

Carmen: Yes.

Pamela: Thanks, Carmen!

Carmen: Thank you!

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Transcript

Attracting and recruiting good talent is difficult for all businesses but for local businesses it can be especially challenging.

Hi I’m Carmen Sognonvi and it can be challenging for local business because very often the positions we have available are lower in pay or may not be very prestigious jobs like cashiers, clerks or receptionist.

So how would you manage to attract quality people at a salary you can actually afford to pay and make the interview process as painless as possible?

Well that’s exactly what this video is all about. By the way for more great tips on how to run a successful local business be sure to check out on my blog at Carmen Sognonvi.com

Now many of us local business owners turn to Craig’s List to post many positions that we have open.

Craig’s List is awesome because you get such a huge audience that you can get in front of but it can be awful for the same reason.

You can get absolutely bombarded with applications and it’s tough to sort through all of that and figure out which applicants are good and which applicants aren’t.

Here are some tips to help you make that selection process as simple as possible.

1. Specify the Salary in your ad

Don’t be coy. Tell them how much you plan on paying for the position because if someone isn’t willing to take a job on for that amount don’t waste your time with them.

2. Outline the Application Process

Have a very specific application process and make it clear in the ad that anyone who doesn’t follow the process will automatically be eliminated.

I will ask people who want to apply email your resume as an attachment and in the body of the email ask them to answer the following 5 questions.

I do this for a couple of different reasons:

One, this eliminates all of those people who are just copying and pasting their resume and cover letter to every single job that is out there.

Second, another reason is the questions pertain to the position. So I’m basically forcing the candidate to ask themself if they whether they are truly able to meet the requirements this position needs.

So for example I will ask.

“Are you available M-F from this hour to this hour, yes or no”.

Now if I get someone that says ya I am except for Wednesday when I have a class that starts at 2:00 but I can get there pretty quickly.”

If I get someone like that I automatically know that they aren’t going to work out because they can’t even meet the basic requirements that I am looking for.

Three, I know that in our business we have allot of specific process and systems that we follow because we want to ensure consistency and professionalism.

And if you can’t follow basic instructions like email your resume as an attachment and follow these 5 questions I know you aren’t going to be a good fit.

3. Make a group interview the first step:

In corporate america the next step would be a phone screen.

But I do things a little differently.

I use to do that and then set up a one on one interview.

And I realized that that’s not a good use of time.

Why? Because believe it or not only about 50% of people, in my experience, actually bother showing up for a job interview.

Yes, even in this economic climate.

So I’ve just found that a much more efficient use of my time so to gather the candidates who’s applications meet the requirements and tell them “Hey we are doing a group interview this date this time, can you make it?”

4. Present best and worst case scenarios:

I start of the group interview basically by doing a presentation to all of the candidates together.

I tell them about the company about all of the cool things we are doing where we are headed, our vision.

So we are really painting a picture of why this is a good place to work.

At the same time I’m painting a picture of the worst case scenarios what may come along with this job.

We work with kids so you are probably going to have to deal with pee, poop, and vomit and if you are uncomfortable with that this may not the place for you.

So I both trying to show them why this is a good place to work but at the same time weed out the people who aren’t serious about putting in the effort.

At that point then I’ll do very very very quick meetings 1 on 1 with each candiddate 5 min conversations which kind of takes the place of the phone screen.

5. Assign Homework:

After each one on one conversation I’ll give them an assignment that they have to send back to me in 2 days.

Again this is another way of eliminating the people who are serious about this position.

This all may sound like I’m making people jump through hoops and I am.

I want to find the people who actually want to be here, and are interested in this position and interested in our company and are not just looking for a pay-check.

6. Schedule interview and a sample shift:

Now for the candidates who complete the homework assignment I will invite them back for a more in-depth conversation with me and my husband and anyone else in the company that it makes sense for them to meet with.

We’ll narrow that list down to 2 or 3 people and invite them in for a couple of hours over the course of the next few days.

WE basically want to see them in action because people can interview well but fall down on the job.

So I want to see how they are handling things.I might throw them a couple of curve-balls see how they handle dealing with some pressure.

Put them on the spot a couple of times to see how they are going to adapt.

That gives us a good chance to have our other staff members interact with them so that they can get a sense of what they think of this person and can give us their input.

If you found this video useful I would encourage you to sign up to get email updates from me.

You’ll get more great tips on how to run a successful local business as well as some special offers from me.

If you are already on my blog you just need to feel out the form below.

Or if you are watching this video elsewhere youcan go to carmensognovi.com/newsletter and signup there.

Thanks for watching and I’d love to hear your tips on how you find good quality candidates or any horror stories or success stories you may have so please leave a comment below.

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Transcript

How much better would your life and your business be if you close more leads and get more done each and every day?

Hi I am Carmen Sognonvi, and in this video I am going to share with you three cool new tools that I discovered recently that have really helped me out in my life and in my business.

Now our martial arts school, Urban Martial Arts, only opens in the early afternoon and I have always been very conscious and very concerned that we were really missing out on possibly a lot of great opportunities of phone calls that were coming in, in the morning.

Obviously any time we got in we would return all messages and voicemails that we got right away but I felt like by not having a live person answering the phone in the morning we were really missing out.

And so I discovered this great service called Call Ruby. And they are a virtual receptionist service.

So basically what you do is forward your phone calls to them and then when you are not there to answer your phone they will actually pick up the phone as if they were one of your staff memebers and they will literally pick up and say “Hi thank you for calling Urban Martial Arts, how can I help you?”

Now what I love about this service is that it has really allowed us to maximize the leads we are already getting and I have been so amazed by the call volume that we are getting in the morning and we were just missing out on all of these leads.

Because one thing you have to understand is that a lot of people don’t like to leave voicemail and when they cannot reach a live person it basically makes them feel as if they have reached an abandoned business.

So by not having that option you are possibly missing out on a lot of leads you are already generating.

So that has made a great difference for our business and you should check them out at callruby.com.

Now one of the unfortunate side effects of being a business owner is that you tend to put your business first and your personal life last.

Which means there is a lots of little details that are just not getting done.

Now you probably have heard of traditional virtual assistance and in my humble opinion most of those are a total waste of money but that will be a topic for a different video.

But what I want to talk to about is a great service that I found recently called Fancy Hands.

And Fancy Hands is a virtual assistance service that is structured very differently. So basically the way it works is that you pay a monthly membership and depending on what level you have you get a certain number of tasks that you can use each month.

And those tasks can be anything from making a doctors appointment, researching something, transcribing a video.

They are very flexible with what they are able to do.

What I really appreciate is that the tasks is not considered deducted from your account until the whole thing is done.

So the task isn’t simply like hey I made this phone call and left a message so there you have used your one task for the month.

You do not get deducted until the task is actually completed.

There are so many stupid little things that I have been putting off doing for a long time that I’ve actually had Fancy Hands help me out with.

So definitely check them out at FancyHands.com.

Now social media is obviously very valuable to business but as you know it can also be a bit of a time suck.

So the next tool I want to tell you about really helps to streamline what you do online can automate a lot of things that would usually take you a lot of time to do manually.

And that tool is called IFTTT.

Which stands for If This Than That.

And you can find it at ifttt.com.

And basically what this tool allows you to do is connect the different social media accounts you have along with other different tools and services that you use and it basically allows them to talk to each other in automated ways that you can sync and configure how you want.

Just to give you some specific examples of how I use it, what I do is I have rules set up so that if I am reading a blog post in Google reader and I hit the star button and I star that post, it will automatically schedule a tweet of that blog post for me.

And at the same time it will automatically save it to my Evernote account.

Because obviously I found it valuable enough I may as well automatically save it.

So something used to take me a lot of copying and pasting and getting URL shortner and this and that and logging into twitter or one of my clients and doing all of this, now its literally one click of a button and it’s done.

And I also have a rule set up for YouTube.

So any time I add a YouTube video to my favorites it will do some of the similar things, it will create a tweet that goes out and it will also add it to my Evernote account.

So check it out IFTTT.com.

There is all kinds of cool formulas out there.

The ones I mentioned are just the tip of the iceberg.

There is really a lot you can do with this tool.

If you found this video useful I would encourage you to sign up to get e-mail updates from me.

You will get more great tips on how to run a successful local business along with some occasional special offers from me.

To get started all you have to do is fill out the form below since you’re already on my blog or if you’re watching this video elsewhere you can head over to carmensognonvi.com/newsletter and sign up there.

Thanks for watching and not love to hear about what tools you have discovered recently that are making your life easier.

So leave a comment below.

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Transcript

Jun: Carmen, it is absolutely a pleasure to have you here today.

Can you please tell us in 30 seconds or less about yourself and your business?

Carmen: Sure.

So, my husband and I started a martial arts school back in 2008 called Urban Martial Arts, we’re based in Brooklyn, New York.

And we offer karate classes for kids and teens, kickboxing classes for adults, and we also do a karate after school program and a karate summer camp.

And in addition to that, I also blog at CarmenSognonvi.com about local business and local marketing.

I like to kind of, you know, share my two cents about what it’s like being a business owner.

Jun: Terrific. And that’s why I reached out to you, because you’re a business owner.

Actually, you have a blog where you talk about local marketing, but more importantly, you actually have a business.

You’re not just somebody who’s talking about it, you live it, you walk the walk, as they like to say.

So, Carmen, can you tell us how do you currently use social media at your business?

Carmen: Sure.

So at Urban Martial Arts, I would say that for us, the blog is really kind of the central hub of where all of our content lives and then from there we kind of promote that through a variety of channels.

So, in terms of the blog, we put out two or three posts a week, some texts but mostly video, I find that video works really well for us because as you can imagine, martial arts is such, kind of a visual medium.

So that works really well.

And then in addition to that, of course, we have the requisite Google+ and Facebook and Twitter accounts.

But then also, you know, I think sometimes people get really excited about social media, but they kind of forget that that’s really one piece of online marketing in general.

So for us, email is still probably the number one tool in terms of disseminating that content to our prospects and our customers.

Jun: Okay, tell me, how do you capture email then?

Carmen: Any way we can.

So definitely on our website we have a lot of places where, you know, people can opt in.

Especially on our blog, we produce several special reports that people can opt in for.

And then, of course, you know, anyone that comes in and is interested in taking a trial class or becomes a student with us, we capture their emails always as well.

Jun: Okay.

Great, right.

At the location, you’re able to talk to them, get their email.

Also, on the blog.

You said you write special reports.

Now, this is pretty good because I would think martial arts is a pretty niche type of industry.

What kind of special reports are you writing?

Carmen: Sure.

So one of the topics that’s been really successful for us is bullying and bullying prevention.

And, of course, that’s a topic that a lot of parents are especially concerned about and unfortunately, a lot of families come to us because their kids are getting bullied at school.

Or, this is less often the case, but still sometimes happens, is their kids are bullying other people.

So, in both cases, you know, parents understand that martial arts is an important way to kind of address those issues.

So, a couple years back, I actually wrote a seven-part series about bullying and bullying prevention for our blog.

And I basically wrapped all of that content into one single PDF that’s like, you know, a nice little booklet.

And so that is probably the number one download on our blog, is the special report about bullying.

Jun: That is so smart.

Because I thought you were going to say something about a certain type of martial arts techniques or different types of, like, rankings in martial arts or tournaments.

But to go straight to the source, right?

Because it’s the parents that choose to bring their kids to your studio, right?

Carmen: Yeah.

Jun: So you want to talk to the parents about things they care about.

That’s really important, I think, for anybody listening, right?

How does your local store, local market, whatever it may be, you know, how can you target what your target market wants to know about, right?

Learning about bullying, I think it’s perfect.

Now, who wrote it?

Did you write it?

Did you hire someone to write it?

How did you go about doing that?

Carmen: I wrote it, with a lot of blood, sweat and tears.

Jun: How long did it take you?

Carmen: Oh, man, too long.

Because I really wanted it to be very, very in-depth.

You know, there’s like a section about statistics about bullying, there’s a section about the causes of bullying, like why do people bully?

What are the effects of bullying on others and also on the bullier himself?

So, yeah, I wrote it myself.

Jun: Excellent.

You mentioned to me before this call that it is absolutely required to create content and social and that might be one of the biggest mistakes that company’s make, is that they don’t produce content.

You wrote this great PDF, you said it took you longer than you expected.

You know, what would you tell other business owners that say, “I just don’t have time,” or “Maybe I’m not a good writer, I don’t know what to write about.”

You know, how can we get them to know that they, too, can create content?

Carmen: Yeah.

Yeah, I really do think content is key and something that business owners need to focus on.

And, you know, I think sometimes people forget that content doesn’t mean text, it can be video.

Just to give you an example, I’ve been a writer for a long time, so it comes pretty naturally to meóalthough I still get kind of lazy about writing sometimesóbut the reason that we’ve moved into doing a lot of video is because I really want to showcaseóyou know, my husband, Serge, he is the head instructor, so he teaches all the classes.

He’s the martial artist.

So he’s more the face of the business than I am.

And he’s just not really a big writer.

However, he’s great at speaking.

And so that’s why we’ve moved into doing a lot of video, and, you know, he’s not necessarily a trained public speaker, but he comes across as very personable.

So the way that we do it with him, is that I’ll basically interview him on camera and then I’ll edit together his answers into a video.

So understand that, you know, content doesn’t have to mean writing, it can be video, it can even be photos, especially if you are in some kind of a very visual industry, like anything related to food or anything kind of design or fashion related.

Photos can be a great form of content as well.

Jun: Great.

No, that’s a great answer, it can come from different mediums, right?

And I think that’s great.

You’re great at writing, holding the camera, editing video.

Your husband, you know, he’s good at martial arts, maybe he can’t write as well as you can, but he can talk in front of the camera and show people how to defend themselves.

I think that’s excellent.

The follow up to that is, okay, you’ve written content, you’ve created a video, whatever it may be.

How do I distribute it?

You know, how do I get people to watch it, to download it?

Because I start a blog and two weeks into it, four weeks, you know, several months into it, I don’t have an audience, so I’m like, why am I still writing?

You know, how do you get people to become aware of it?

Carmen: Sure.

Yeah, I mean, this is definitely a struggle.

But at the same time, I think you have to think about what are your goals as a business?

I think sometimes a lot of the information out there online, and the reason that I started my blog, actually, is because I’ve always been somewhat involved in the online marketing space for the last ten years in one form or another, and so I follow a lot of the big blogs out there.

But I find that a lot of the advice that’s given doesn’t necessarily translate well for local businesses.

Because, speaking about blogging and building an audience or getting eyeballs on your content, for example, bloggers are really concerned about this, because they kind of want to build this massive audience so that they can monetize it and sell ads or whatever their strategy is.

As a local business owner, you’re not really trying to get eyeballs on your content in order to monetize it that way.

It’s a different strategy.

So what you really want to figure out is what are your goals?

So, you know, I’m a big advocate of blogging and the reason I am is because it’s a great way to differentiate yourself from other businesses and really establish yourself as an expert in your space.

Just to give you a few examples, because of the great content that we produce in the form of blog posts and videos, that’s led to a lot of PR opportunities for us.

We’ve been featured in the New York Daily News, which is one of the big dailies here in New York City.

They picked our summer camp as one of their hottest summer camps of the city, basically because they kind of found us that way.

We got written up in The L Magazine, they picked us as one of the top ten workouts for people who hate working out.

And again, it was very much related to the fact that they were able to just go on our website, see exactly what our classes are like, who’s running the business, get a sense of who we are, and that really differentiated us from, you know, possibly other schools that they were looking at.

So, you know, content is, there’s a lot of different goals that you can have with it.

So, I think as a business you need to kind of figure out, okay, where do I, how do I get from point A to point B and what is point B?

Is it to establish expertise to get publicity?

Is it to actually make a sale?

If it is, then, you know, again, I think email is really important.

You can also use content as a way to kind of lead people into opting into your email list and then that way you can continue the relationship there.

Jun: Love it!

It’s great.

You write content but you can also leverage that you are a local business and go after PR, right?

There’s so many websites online, there’s so many news stations or online magazines that want to cover how local businesses are using social media, you can be a great case study and you’ve proven it, right?

They use you as a case study, kind of like I’m doing now, right?

You know, I found you, I’m going to be linking to your site, that’s just great, right, for maybe local SEO, whatever it may be.

What about any location-based social networks like Foursquare or even Yelp, you know, how are you using Yelp right now to try to get more people aware of you?

Carmen: Oh, Yelp.

I got to say, I’m not a big fan of Yelp.

Jun: Very few local businesses are a fan of Yelp.

No one likes their phone calls and the way they try to leverage their position.

But, you know, just tell me your opinion on, you know, Yelp and Foursquare and how you’re using them.

Carmen: Sure.

I don’t want to turn this into a bitch fest.

But in general, we’ve tried, we’ve experimented a little bit with the geo-location stuff, like with Foursquare check-ins and on Facebook, when they were still doing their check-ins, which I think they, it still lives on, but sounds like they’re kind of phasing that out.

And the way that we were doing it is we were aiming it more at our existing students rather than outside people, and so we did it more as kind of like a loyalty thing.

So, for every fifth check-in, they would basically get a free vitamin water from us.

So, it was just a way to kind of get people to check in.

I don’t know how effective it was for us.

I think, actually this was one of the points that I wanted to make sure I brought up in the interview, I think that one of my pet peeves is that if you read case studies about how local businesses are using social media, 99% of those case studies are about restaurants and food trucks.

Jun: Right.

Carmen: And you have to understand that any kind of food-related business is completely different fromónot completely different, but it’s very different from other types of local businesses.

Because food is inherently viral, it’s inherently social, people naturally want to share, “Hey, I just ate at this great place,” they want to show off that they know what’s the, you know, latest and hottest restaurant.

And so people are going to naturally talk about those kinds of businesses.

If you’re a dry cleaner, people are not going to be like climbing all over themselves to tweet about how awesomely clean their shirts are.

You know, it’s just, it’s different.

So I think you need to, the geo-location stuff, I think probably works really well for restaurants and maybe, you know, food-related businesses like food trucks.

But if you’re a non-restaurant, it may not be so effective, or you need to make sure that you kind of shift your strategy and go where your customers are, or go where it makes sense.

Like Yelp, as much as, like, I kind of hate them, the truth is I don’t think that that many people go to Yelp to look for fitness-related businesses.

I feel like primarily people still think of Yelp as like a restaurant directory.

I’m sure they won’t like me saying this, but, you know, that’s kind of my impression.

So the fact that, you know, we don’t have like a super awesome presence on Yelp doesn’t really hurt us and that’s kind of why I haven’t focused that much time on the geo-location stuff.

We’ve dabbled a little bit, you know, tested the waters and then it’s like, “Okay, the results are not that awesome, let’s focus on what’s really working.”

Jun: What is the biggest mistake that local businesses make with social marketing?

Carmen: I would say the biggest mistake local business owners are making is assuming that their customers are not online.

There’s still a lot of business owners I talk to who are like, “Oh, I have a website,” or “I don’t really need a website because my customer base is this and they’re not really on the internet or they don’t really have computers like that.”

And that just is, you know, that’s just making poor assumptions.

Just to give you a solid example, Urban Martial Arts, our business, is located in this area called Ditmas Park in Brooklyn, and we’re kind of at the crossroads of quite a few different ethnic communities.

And a lot of our students are, or their families are very new immigrants to the country, like a week.

Really new!

And a lot of them are from what would be considered developing countries, Kazakhstan, the Sudan, Yemen, you know, all these kinds of countries that, you know, typically you might think, you might not really think that they’re super up on technology, but whenever people come in, as I mentioned earlier, we always require an email address if they want to sign up for a class or anything like that, or even if they’re inquiring for information, we’ll offer to send it to them by email.

And I can tell you that 99% of the time, people have an email address.

Even people that you would think, “Oh, man, they just got here, they barely speak English, they’re not going to be online,” they have an email address.

Because think about it, like how are they communicating with people back home?

They use Skype, they’re using the internet, they’re using email.

So I would say that actually, it sounds like a basic thing, but a lot of business owners, I think, are still making the assumption that, “Most of my customers are not online, so I don’t have to worry about that piece of it.”

Jun: Great.

And my last question today is, let’s say a local business owner right now watches this video and they think it’s great, but there’s so much to do, Facebook, Twitter, Yelp, a blog, creating an email newsletter list, there’s so much to do, so sometimes you have decision paralysis and you don’t know where to start.

So what would you recommend this person, where would you recommend for him or her to start?

Carmen: I would recommend that they start by blogging regularly.

And like we said before, blogging doesn’t necessarily have to mean writing, it can be video, it can be photos, but start creating content on a regular basis.

And one really quick and easy way to start doing this, if you’re kind of stuck on like, “Well, what should I write about or what content should I create?” is actually a really great tip from Marcus Sheridan, who has a blog at The Sales Lion, which I highly recommend for all local business owners to read, because he is one of the few guys who is actually a business owner and not just a guy writing about business, as we kid about.

He owns a pool company that’s really successful.

And basically his tip is that, you know, an easy way to create content is just think about what are the most frequently asked questions that you get from customers or prospects?

So what are the things that people ask constantly?

So in our business, for example, people will often ask, “How long does it take to get a black belt?”

“What are the different color belts in the karate system, what do they mean?”

Or on the kickboxing fitness side, people want to know, “How often should I be working out?”

“What should I eat?”

“How long before I work out should my last meal be and what should I be eating?”

So things like that, just think about what are the questions that you’re constantly answering, and then just create one blog post or one video to answer each question, and that’s a great way to get started.

And if I may do a quick plug, I actually did a free webinar on my blog a while ago called The Three Biggest Mistakes that Local Business Owners are Making on Their Blog.

That’s not a **** title than that, but you get the idea.

And if people want to check out that webinar, it’s free, you can just download the recording and it’s at CarmenSognonvi.com/blogging.

Jun: Love it, Carmen Sognonvi, thank you so much for being with us here today.

I love your experience, your enthusiasm, and I love that you not only talk the talk on your blog, but you’re also running your own business, which I think is terrific.

So thank you so much.

All the links will be posted underneath, so anybody can contact you if they do have any questions.

Carmen: Great.

Thank you so much for having me, this was fun.

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Transcript

Have you ever had a customer where every time you talk to them it makes you want to grab a fork and stab yourself in the eye? Yeah, you probably have.

Hi, I’m Carmen Sognonvi and in this video I’m going to talk to you about how to decide whether you want to keep a customer or whether you should fire them.

It’s not an easy decision especially when a lot of money is on the line and so that’s exactly what I’m going to talk about in this video.

By the way, if you’re looking for more useful information on how to run a successful local business, be sure to check out my blog at CarmenSognonvi.com

Okay, so at what point do you decide that you want to fire a customer? After all, there is a lot of annoying people in the world and to some extent sometimes you can just suck it up and kind of accept it as a cost of dealing with the public and doing business.

But there are some situations where it goes beyond just a regular irritation.

For example, if you know in your heart of hearts that by keeping this one customer you’re going to end up losing 2 or 3 other customers, then absolutely you need to let that person go.

So under what situation would that happen?

Well, if there is any kind of a group dynamic in your business, this is a really important factor to consider.

So for example, at our business, Urban Martial Arts, which is a martial arts school, we have to be very careful about the kinds of group dynamics that exist in any given class that we’re holding.

Now there has been a couple of situations in the past where we’ve had students that have been extremely disruptive in class or they’re just really dragging everyone else down by complaining about things or they’re not willing to do what’s required of them.

In those kinds of situations we’ve really had to think about, okay, how much resources should we dedicate to trying to please this student and to what extent does that overstep the bounds because we’re now taking away from the 19 other students in the class? So that’s the kind of situation you really have to weigh.

Even if there isn’t a kind of group dynamic in your business model, you can still encounter this same problem of possibly losing customers as a result of keeping one and that could be because this one problematic customer is taking up all of your time.

They’ve got so many complaints, you’re always on the phone with them, you’re always having to deal with their issues and problems and that’s taking away from the time you have to dedicate to your other customers and they’re going to feel that.

So if you are finding that you’re running the risk of losing other customers, it’s time to get rid of that one customer.

Now, another situation in which I think it’s absolutely fair to fire a customer is if you run the risk of losing a good employee by keeping that bad customer.

And this is actually something that’s happened to us in our business. We had one particular parent of a child who was training with us who was constantly extremely disrespectful to our front desk associate.

Every time our front desk person would call her about important things like deadlines that were coming up, or checking in to see if everything was OK cause they missed class or any kind of billing questions, she would just always be incredibly rude to her.

It got to the point where it was a real morale problem and it was really getting to the point where this employee was ready to quit because she was so tired of dealing with this.

I know that it’s much harder to find a good employee than it is to find a good customer. So we basically and to ask the mom to leave our school and just let her know, “Look, I’m sorry but if you’re going to be disrespectful to our staff, you’re just not going to be a good fit here.”

Now, the irony of the story is that the mother had originally brought her daughter in to take karate classes with us because she felt that the daughter needed to learn more respect.

I wonder why that would be an issue?

Now, trust is such an important thing when it comes to business. Your customer trusts you to provide them with quality product or service. You trust your customers to pay you in a timely manner. Without trust, you can’t have a successful business.

So, if you’re in a situation where you feel very clearly that there is a customer who doesn’t like, trust or respect you, then it’s time to let them go.

And the same goes the other way around. If you’ve come into a situation where you’re dealing with someone you really dislike , you don’t trust and you don’t respect, then it’s time to part ways.

Why? Because you just can’t fake that.

And if you try to fake your way through it and act as if you like them or act like you trust or respect them, it’s just not going to feel genuine and no matter what, it’s going to lead to friction down the road.

So, there are a lot of situations where that can happen that kind of lead client or customer relationships to erode.

Sometimes it’s miscommunication. Sometimes it’s genuine error on the customer’s part or the business’ part and so you really need to evaluate what’s the nature of the relationship, how healthy is it?

If it’s not healthy, does it make sense to just go our separate ways? So I would say if that’s the situation, you want to think about firing your customer.

I want to leave you with one final thought.

Remember at the beginning of this video when I talked about the kind of customer that makes you want to stab yourself in the eye every time you talked to them?

Well, if there is someone like that that just drives you insane and every time you see their number come up on caller ID you cringe inside, every time you need to call them, you delay it for as long as possible because you know it’s going to be a really painful situation….why are you hanging on to this customer?

I mean, you went into business for the freedom. You went into business because you wanted to be your own boss an live life on your own terms.

If there is someone that drives you crazy to that extent, life is too short, let them go and even if you lose money out of it, just know that by letting go of one person that is making you unhappy, you’re probably going to make room for 5 great customers that will more than make up for the lost revenue.

Now of course, if you’re in the kind of situation where this customer is responsible for bringing in 70-80% of your revenue, be smart about it.

Make sure that you set things up so that your are able to let them go.

Make sure that you bring in the extra business so that by the time you let them go, you’re not going to take such a big financial hit.

But just keep in mind sometimes we just get wrapped up in the day to day of running a business and we forget about whey we started doing this in the first place. And we started doing this because we wanted to be happy.

So if there is something that is making you desperately unhappy, just let it go and don’t look back and ever regret it.

OK, if you’ve found this video useful, I would encourage you to sign up to get email updates from me.

You’ll get more great tips on how to run a successful local business along with some occasional special offers from me.

All you have to do is go to carmensognonvi.com/newsletter and fill out the form or if you’ve already on my blog just fill out the form right below this video.

Thanks for watching and I’d love to hear from you…have you ever had to fire a customer?

If so, what happened, what were the circumstances leading up to it and how did you come to make that decision and what was the outcome?

Do you regret it, are you happy, was it the best decision you ever made?

Leave a comment below because I would love to hear your stories!!

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Transcript

Hi, I am Carmen Sognonvi and you will probably notice that this video looks a little bit different than my usual ones.

I’m actually on the road this week but I wanted to make this video because my friend Annika Martins is doing this thing called “celebration series” and she basically invited different friends of hers who are bloggers or video bloggers to do a post about what they have to celebrate.

It really couldn’t have come in a better week because I’m actually at an event right now called InfusionCon.

We have just signed up to use the software called InfusionSoft which is this really amazing all-in-one sales and marketing software. We’re gonna be implementing it for our martial arts school Urban Martial Arts.

As I’ve been sitting here listening to all of these amazing speakers and hearing about how other business are using the software, I’m just blown away by the crazy things that (and I mean crazy in a good way) the amazing things that these business owners are doing in terms of delivering a great customer experience, in terms of communicating with their customers, personalizing those communications.

This is making me feel like oh my god I have such a long way to go. There’s so many things I want to do and I’m just so far from reaching those goals.

So I’m glad that Annika invited me to think about what I have to celebrate because I think that it’s very easy as entrepreneurs to get caught up in what we want to happen.

I’m the kind of person where I’m just never satisfied with how things are. I’m constantly thinking about how to improve the experience that our students and our families have at our school.

I constantly want to streamline our processes and our systems, so I’m just never satisfied with how things are.

That’s a good thing but at the same time I think sometimes we need to step back a little bit as entrepreneurs and really take some time to really celebrate what we have accomplished so far.

March of 2012 was actually our fourth anniversary. We’ve been open at Urban Martial Arts for four years as of last month, and you know when I think back to the early days, we’ve just come such a long way.

When we first opened we had no idea if this was even going to happen, just getting that first twenty dollars from the first person that came in and paid for a trial class, that was amazing and you know fast-forward to today, we’ve got hundreds of students, families, we’re getting written up in the press and, sometimes I think it’s important to just step back and realize you know what, we’ve come a long way.

I especially think about the fact that when we opened the business what our lives were like, me and my husband Serge. At the time we were both working our day jobs, in addition to that we were also working nights and weekends in the restaurant industry to make extra money, so we were hustling really really hard and, um, making very little money [laughter] quite frankly.

Fast forward to today, just the fact that our business is able to not only support the two of us purely based on what we make out of the school, letting us live a pretty comfortable lifestyle but we are also able to employ three other people, that’s a pretty amazing accomplishment, in the bigger scheme of things.

So, what’s the message that I’m trying to convey? I guess I really want you to think about what you have to be grateful for in your life. What should you be celebrating in your business rather than always focusing on what needs to be better, what isn’t good enough.

Sometimes it’s healthy to take a step back and think you know what, “I need to give myself a pat on the back”. You know, there’s some stuff that we are doing pretty well.

So, thank you Annika for inviting me do this. It couldn’t have come at a better time. My mind has been blown at this event, all the cool stories I’m hearing and all the awesome ideas that I’m getting, like my mind is just buzzing about all the cool things that we need to be implementing.

So it was really healthy for me I think to take a step back and just, you know, take a moment to appreciate the journey that we’ve been on and realize that while the future holds a lot of cool stuff, we’ve also come a long way since we started. So keep that in mind.

As usual you can find me on carmensognonvi.com. Bye for now.

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Transcript

Hi Tim and Kevin, I’m Carmen Sognonvi.

I really enjoyed the recent video you did about how to humanize your brand using video.

I totally agree with you that over-producing video can sometimes be a mistake.

My husband and I own a martial arts school in Brooklyn, NY called Urban Martial Arts so we like to check out what other martial arts schools around the country are doing with their marketing.

I’ve noticed a couple school owners who have videos that they seem to think make themselves look really bad-ass.

I’m talking about videos with slo-mo shots of instructors punching and kicking mid-air set to some cheesy Eye of the Tiger-type music.

And it just ends up being unintentionally funny.

Especially when the instructor has, let’s just say, let himself go a little bit and is not quite the Adonis he was back in the day?

Not a good look.

Anyway, I wanted to answer your question about what works for us when we use video to humanize our brand.

The most important way we do it is that we always showcase our own actual students.

And not everybody does this.

I know some schools that will go out and hire professional martial artists to appear in their commercials and promo videos.

And while this gets you cool footage of people doing backflips and neat nunchuck tricks, ultimately it’s not a reflection of who they really are as a school.

90% of our students are not doing backflips on a regular basis, so we’re just not going to make that the centerpiece of our video efforts.

Instead, we’re more interested in showing candid footage of our students doing their thing – whether it’s in class, or at our belt promotion ceremonies, or at karate tournaments.

Not every kid is going to be super-photogenic, and not every kid is going to be the next Jaden Smith.

So it may not be as flashy, but I believe it’s more realistic and shows a prospective parent what they can actually expect to see when they walk through our doors.

And so far it’s been really successful!

The vast majority of our students find us online and we always hear from them that watching our videos played a big role in getting them interested in checking us out.

To any fellow ReelSEO fans who happen to be watching this, if you own a local business, I’d love for you to check out my blog at CarmenSognonvi.com.

It’s all about how to run a successful local bricks-and-mortar business, including how to get more customers and close more sales.

Thanks for letting me share, Tim. I’ve learned so much from your videos, and I can’t wait to see what you come out with next!

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