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	<title>Comments for dy/dan</title>
	
	<link>http://blog.mrmeyer.com</link>
	<description>less helpful</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 20:40:24 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Clever Hans by Fran</title>
		<link>http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=5135&amp;cpage=1#comment-251856</link>
		<dc:creator>Fran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 20:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=5135#comment-251856</guid>
		<description>Another good question we use in physics is "how do you know?"  It does not imply an answer is incorrect, and requires an explanation from the student.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another good question we use in physics is &#8220;how do you know?&#8221;  It does not imply an answer is incorrect, and requires an explanation from the student.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Clever Hans by Robert Jones</title>
		<link>http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=5135&amp;cpage=1#comment-251844</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 09:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=5135#comment-251844</guid>
		<description>Great post. Three thoughts:
 
The 'think-pair-share' strategy helps here - youngsters discuss their ideas with a partner first, before sharing with class.  No teacher involvement until they have already vocalised their thinking.

It is much harder to get a 'tell' when you are communicating online.  Maybe online learning has an edge here.

This whole issue is a symptom of "teacher as priest".  Do we need learners to need us as arbiters of correctness and truth?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. Three thoughts:</p>
<p>The &#8216;think-pair-share&#8217; strategy helps here &#8211; youngsters discuss their ideas with a partner first, before sharing with class.  No teacher involvement until they have already vocalised their thinking.</p>
<p>It is much harder to get a &#8216;tell&#8217; when you are communicating online.  Maybe online learning has an edge here.</p>
<p>This whole issue is a symptom of &#8220;teacher as priest&#8221;.  Do we need learners to need us as arbiters of correctness and truth?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Clever Hans by Jason Dyer</title>
		<link>http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=5135&amp;cpage=1#comment-251838</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Dyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 05:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=5135#comment-251838</guid>
		<description>Related, if you haven't seen this one...

http://numberwarrior.wordpress.com/2009/05/12/my-favorite-educational-psychology-experiment/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Related, if you haven&#8217;t seen this one&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://numberwarrior.wordpress.com/2009/05/12/my-favorite-educational-psychology-experiment/" rel="nofollow">http://numberwarrior.wordpress.com/2009/05/12/my-favorite-educational-psychology-experiment/</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Clever Hans by Dan Meyer</title>
		<link>http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=5135&amp;cpage=1#comment-251837</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 04:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=5135#comment-251837</guid>
		<description>Right on both. It is kind of staggering to me that in the midst of an otherwise solid ed program, this sort of teacher response system was never discussed.

We got into wait time. Like, "don't just answer your own question when there's silence," but nothing like this kind of utterly essential Jedi mind trick.

I'd like to trade notes on one point with both of you: it takes me a matter of months to rid most students of their dependence on my reaction for their response. Months. The process is much quicker than I'd imagine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right on both. It is kind of staggering to me that in the midst of an otherwise solid ed program, this sort of teacher response system was never discussed.</p>
<p>We got into wait time. Like, &#8220;don&#8217;t just answer your own question when there&#8217;s silence,&#8221; but nothing like this kind of utterly essential Jedi mind trick.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to trade notes on one point with both of you: it takes me a matter of months to rid most students of their dependence on my reaction for their response. Months. The process is much quicker than I&#8217;d imagine.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Clever Hans by josh g.</title>
		<link>http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=5135&amp;cpage=1#comment-251836</link>
		<dc:creator>josh g.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 03:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=5135#comment-251836</guid>
		<description>I've been trying something similar during my student teaching, except usually I ask something like, "Why is that true?" or "Where did you get that answer from?"  And yeah, almost every time I've said that students started second-guessing and thinking they got the wrong answer.  

If they get too deer-in-the-headlights then sometimes I let them know that they have the right answer, I just want them to explain how they got there.  But that's a short-term fix for poor self-efficacy and risks turning into a new cue.  (Revised student algorithm: answer, look scared when asked to explain, wait to see if you are told you're correct.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been trying something similar during my student teaching, except usually I ask something like, &#8220;Why is that true?&#8221; or &#8220;Where did you get that answer from?&#8221;  And yeah, almost every time I&#8217;ve said that students started second-guessing and thinking they got the wrong answer.  </p>
<p>If they get too deer-in-the-headlights then sometimes I let them know that they have the right answer, I just want them to explain how they got there.  But that&#8217;s a short-term fix for poor self-efficacy and risks turning into a new cue.  (Revised student algorithm: answer, look scared when asked to explain, wait to see if you are told you&#8217;re correct.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Clever Hans by Dan Callahan</title>
		<link>http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=5135&amp;cpage=1#comment-251835</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Callahan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 03:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=5135#comment-251835</guid>
		<description>Something I work really hard on with my Special Ed students, and don't always succeed, is asking "Are you sure?" with a completely straight face all the time, even at times when they have the right answer. it's really hard in this earlier part of the year, because the kids are so used to being questioned only when they get things wrong, but it pays off later in the year when they immediately justify their answers. It helps them learn to better explain what they do know, and helps me to understand their thought processes in order to fix up problem areas when they occur.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something I work really hard on with my Special Ed students, and don&#8217;t always succeed, is asking &#8220;Are you sure?&#8221; with a completely straight face all the time, even at times when they have the right answer. it&#8217;s really hard in this earlier part of the year, because the kids are so used to being questioned only when they get things wrong, but it pays off later in the year when they immediately justify their answers. It helps them learn to better explain what they do know, and helps me to understand their thought processes in order to fix up problem areas when they occur.</p>
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		<title>Comment on What I Would Do With This: Groceries by Jon</title>
		<link>http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=4646&amp;cpage=3#comment-251833</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 03:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=4646#comment-251833</guid>
		<description>The real problem is really about assessing risk. How many people ahead of you are writing checks? Will they start writing their check while the groceries are being scanned? Will the start looking for their checkbook at the bottom of a suitcase sized purse only after the total has been announced? Are they 80 years old and will take 10 minuteds to fill out a check? and will try it multiple times? How many will have their credit card or debit card declined? How many are using Food Stamps, WIC, etc. and don't know how many items they can really buy with the money they have left? How many are 8 years old, pay with cash, and will sort through their coins, all day if necessary, to find the exact change? How many are shopping with a partner who will bring 10 additional items at the last second, completely disrupting your analysis? How many people ahead of you, if you are in the self checkout line, have never done it before, and appear to have never seen a scanner used before, and take FOREVER to learn how to do it? Does the checker in your line have experience, or is this their first day on the job? Is a person in line ahead of you a friend of theirs? Is a person ahead of you on their cell phone and in no hurry to pay before they finish the call? Does someone ahead of you have a defective item, and someone has to go get a replacement?

The math may favor a certain approach, but the real world tells you that any line, on any day, can become the line from hell. Odds on a coin flip are 50-50, but that doesn't mean that every other flip is tails.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real problem is really about assessing risk. How many people ahead of you are writing checks? Will they start writing their check while the groceries are being scanned? Will the start looking for their checkbook at the bottom of a suitcase sized purse only after the total has been announced? Are they 80 years old and will take 10 minuteds to fill out a check? and will try it multiple times? How many will have their credit card or debit card declined? How many are using Food Stamps, WIC, etc. and don&#8217;t know how many items they can really buy with the money they have left? How many are 8 years old, pay with cash, and will sort through their coins, all day if necessary, to find the exact change? How many are shopping with a partner who will bring 10 additional items at the last second, completely disrupting your analysis? How many people ahead of you, if you are in the self checkout line, have never done it before, and appear to have never seen a scanner used before, and take FOREVER to learn how to do it? Does the checker in your line have experience, or is this their first day on the job? Is a person in line ahead of you a friend of theirs? Is a person ahead of you on their cell phone and in no hurry to pay before they finish the call? Does someone ahead of you have a defective item, and someone has to go get a replacement?</p>
<p>The math may favor a certain approach, but the real world tells you that any line, on any day, can become the line from hell. Odds on a coin flip are 50-50, but that doesn&#8217;t mean that every other flip is tails.</p>
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		<title>Comment on No-Drop Zones by Ben Blum-Smith</title>
		<link>http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=5085&amp;cpage=1#comment-251812</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Blum-Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 16:12:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=5085#comment-251812</guid>
		<description>@Dan - first of all, I love this post.  Lack of contrivance or arbitrariness is one good candidate for First Law of Math Curriculum Design.

Secondly, your little spinny things gave me a flashback to an art exhibit I went to about 15 years ago, which I have inexplicably not thought about since becoming a math teacher.  The artist was &lt;a href="http://www.arthurganson.com/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Arthur Ganson&lt;/a&gt;.  He makes machines.  &lt;a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q-BH-tvxEg" rel="nofollow"&gt;One of them&lt;/a&gt; is a series of twelve gear setups that each reduce the revolution rate to 1/50 of the previous.  A motor turns the first gear at 200rpm; the last gear is embedded in concrete.  All Ganson's machines are charming, whimsical, and sort of mathematically provocative.  (&lt;a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skeI3FXz9_4" rel="nofollow"&gt;For example&lt;/a&gt;.)

@MatrixFrog, Maria and Touzel - a propos of the motivation question I read a compelling &lt;a href="http://mathbebrave.blogspot.com/2009/08/why-does-it-matter.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;post&lt;/a&gt; by Jesse Johnson on how the question "what's it for?" is actually usually a code for "I'm bored" or "I'm lost."  MatrixFrog I think you're right that it's the wrong question to focus on, or at least those of us teachers who are not engaged by the question should feel free to not focus on it.  It is enough to focus on keeping the problems provocative, the level of challenge appropriate, and making sure the students are getting opportunities to be creative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dan &#8211; first of all, I love this post.  Lack of contrivance or arbitrariness is one good candidate for First Law of Math Curriculum Design.</p>
<p>Secondly, your little spinny things gave me a flashback to an art exhibit I went to about 15 years ago, which I have inexplicably not thought about since becoming a math teacher.  The artist was <a href="http://www.arthurganson.com/" rel="nofollow">Arthur Ganson</a>.  He makes machines.  <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q-BH-tvxEg" rel="nofollow">One of them</a> is a series of twelve gear setups that each reduce the revolution rate to 1/50 of the previous.  A motor turns the first gear at 200rpm; the last gear is embedded in concrete.  All Ganson&#8217;s machines are charming, whimsical, and sort of mathematically provocative.  (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skeI3FXz9_4" rel="nofollow">For example</a>.)</p>
<p>@MatrixFrog, Maria and Touzel &#8211; a propos of the motivation question I read a compelling <a href="http://mathbebrave.blogspot.com/2009/08/why-does-it-matter.html" rel="nofollow">post</a> by Jesse Johnson on how the question &#8220;what&#8217;s it for?&#8221; is actually usually a code for &#8220;I&#8217;m bored&#8221; or &#8220;I&#8217;m lost.&#8221;  MatrixFrog I think you&#8217;re right that it&#8217;s the wrong question to focus on, or at least those of us teachers who are not engaged by the question should feel free to not focus on it.  It is enough to focus on keeping the problems provocative, the level of challenge appropriate, and making sure the students are getting opportunities to be creative.</p>
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		<title>Comment on You Have No Life by Too much time on their hands? — The Endeavour</title>
		<link>http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=4811&amp;cpage=1#comment-251810</link>
		<dc:creator>Too much time on their hands? — The Endeavour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 15:05:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=4811#comment-251810</guid>
		<description>[...] Wineman might have as easily said “persistence.” I found Wineman’s quote in a post by Dan Meyer responding to criticism of his research [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Wineman might have as easily said &#8220;persistence.&#8221; I found Wineman&#8217;s quote in a post by Dan Meyer responding to criticism of his research [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on What I Would Do With This: Groceries by Que caja escoger en el supermercado «</title>
		<link>http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=4646&amp;cpage=3#comment-251803</link>
		<dc:creator>Que caja escoger en el supermercado «</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 07:45:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mrmeyer.com/?p=4646#comment-251803</guid>
		<description>[...] Citando a un experto en matemáticas, se llega a la conclusión contraria a lo que normalmente se piensa. Las filas con poca gente y muchos productos son, por lo general, más veloces. El motivo es claro: lo que más tiempo consume es pagar. Los clientes tardan en hacerlo unos 48 segundos, mientras que las cajeras pasan cada producto en 2,8 segundos de media. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Citando a un experto en matemáticas, se llega a la conclusión contraria a lo que normalmente se piensa. Las filas con poca gente y muchos productos son, por lo general, más veloces. El motivo es claro: lo que más tiempo consume es pagar. Los clientes tardan en hacerlo unos 48 segundos, mientras que las cajeras pasan cada producto en 2,8 segundos de media. [...]</p>
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