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Eric Gargiulo: Paul, it is truly an honor to speak with you. As I have said to you over the phone, I really do feel that you were one of the greatest if not the greatest heel of all-time and it is an honor to be speaking with you.

Paul Orndorff: I loved that introduction. Everything you said. Eric, see you’re a man that knows, and there are people out there that know the truth. There is no doubt about it, I should have been the world heavyweight champion of the WWF and you are exactly right.

Eric: You really should have been. I have been watching a lot of old tapes recently and watching your matches from a different perspective, a mechanics perspective, and a psychology perspective, I really think you may be the greatest heel of all time.

Paul: Well I appreciate that and people don’t know the energy, the work, the blood, that I put into it. I wasn’t an entertainer. I tried to go out there and do it as real as it could possibly be done, better than it could be done by anybody else, none of the showboating, no golden robes, all this stuff when you walk out and whoo this and whoo that. I didn’t work that way. I was a street fighter, always had been when I was growing up, played high school football, junior high football, college football scholarship, drafted by the New Orleans Saints, I was the real deal. It just goes to prove to you people out there and a lot of you other guys out there, you young people that just because you are the best at something you don’t always get what you want. That was very frustrating to me, to work so hard, to be in the gym, to be you know, have it all. Looks, I didn’t have to dye my hair. I wasn’t bald headed, I wasn’t fat I mean I should have had it. Yet, you have people, these promoters that do the opposite because somebody stands up for what they think are right or wrong, and that’s where I stood at. I’m too serious I guess.

Eric: You bring up an excellent point because when I watch your matches they do look as if you are in a fight. I want to bring up something one of your peers, Tito Santana said about you in an interview. Tito thinks that the problem with Hulk Hogan was the first time around, he didn’t draw money like Bruno (Sammartino) and (Bob) Backlund did on the rematches. However, when Hogan was wrestling Paul Orndorff, you guys drew so much money. You were the best drawing opponent for Hogan because you were the only one that had the credibility where people realized and knew you could beat him. What are your thought on what Tito had to say?

Paul: Well, I’ve said this many, many times about Tito Santana. Probably the best matches that I have ever had with anybody were with Tito. Tito was an ex-Kansas City, drafted by the Chiefs, Tito had the same attitude that I had in the ring, same attitude. I felt the very same about him and those comments, Tito’s a school teacher now, he’s a coach, Tito’s very intelligent. Back then Tito had a smart head on him you know, Tito knew how to play the game and I just wish I could have played the game like Tito did, and also keep his honor, and Tito did that, and to his people.

Eric: I remember back at the time you were hot, Tito was hot, and as a fan I always wanted to see you guys feud for the Intercontinental title. As a fan I would watch your matches and you were constantly go, go, go, and I would watch Tito’s matches which were also go, go, go, and it was a match I always wanted to see.

Paul: Well you know I wish they had but they didn’t. We did wrestle against each other but I would have loved to have done that. I think that probably it would have taken away from everything else because I wrestled Tito in a couple of places and one of them was in California, L.A., and I’m telling you when I picked Tito up they were throwing oranges, they were throwing eggs, I had a guy when I had him in the piledriver, had him picked up for the piledriver, a guy jumped, literally jumped in the ring, went by security, and jumped on my back. It’s nice to have loyal fans, but respect would be better. If only they passed out stress balls to the audience before a match, maybe this wouldn’t happen so much. If it hadn’t been for that guy Tito Santana would have been piledrove. The police came and it just happened to be a mess. When the guy came in the ring, just as he was there I gave him a really good kick right in the mouth, that kind of laid him out there and they got him out. Still, it interrupted our match and we really didn’t get to finish it. That was the God’s truth, what I just told you wasn’t no lie, it was true, that really did happen. We were made for each other, Hogan too. I had good matches with him (Hogan) and it is no reflection of his talent or anything, he was chosen, he was the chosen, and he did it. No disrespect to him he drew money, he drew a lot of money, he drew money with everybody, but I also think that there was a time where that if they had it done (him beating Hogan for the WWF title) and done it the right way, he would have been on a different level, even higher than he was. Maybe he would have drawn the second time around with other people, who knows? It would have been better for everybody, but yet they didn’t.

Eric: I don’t have the numbers in front of me but I have to guess that if you take into account inflation, on the grand scale you and Hogan both times around had to draw more money together than just about anybody?

Paul: I think so too and that’s because we did it everywhere we went. We didn’t just do it the first time, the second time, we drew consistently and our matches got better. Really I made Hogan (laughs), that simple, I made him and he knows it. But then again he made me too in a way. It was good for wrestling. It was a lot better for Vince McMahon and Hogan than it was for me financially. That’s life. I like to do these interviews like this, that way I can express the way that I feel, and my attitudes with some things, and people. To have somebody Eric as knowledgeable as you are because I don’t do this to everybody, I’ll be honest with you. Just to feel your talk, the way you said, and the way you approach, if you’re pulling the wool over my eyes you did a good job. I kind of believe in the way you talk, and what you said, and that’s why I honor you with doing this.

Eric: I have such a great respect for you that it is truly an honor to hear that. I have been saying these things about you on my radio show before you agreed to the interview.

Paul: You know I hear this from a lot of people, a lot of people even to this day and you know people say all these good things about certain things. People that are really knowledgeable, you can tell some of them and I agree with them. I’m not going to say something like, “I didn’t this” or “I didn’t that” but you know I feel the same way. I worked too hard. I worked so hard for it that it was unreal. I went overboard.

Eric: The thing I notice most about your matches is that the second you walk through the curtain, you were entertaining the audience. Just by the way you looked at the crowd, by the way you moved, by the timing of the way you moved, and you were so great at not only getting the audience to hat you, but to cheer your opponent like crazy no matter who he was. Whether you were wrestling Hogan or Salvatore Bellomo, the fans just wanted them to beat you, and beat you. My question is can you credit anyone for mentoring you along the way as to how be a great heel?

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Paul: What I did was this. Physically, the physical and the attitude, the viciousness, the meanness, and all these things, I had. Nobody gave that to me, that’s just God’s gift to me. I played football the same way. If I could knock your head off, I did, I would, and I felt good about it to tell you the truth. That’s the way I was. I can’t help that, it was just the mentality that I had. But what I did was I picked a little from this guy, a little from that guy, I listened to Bob Orton, Sr., Bobby’s father. He told me, “What you do is you get everybody to watch you. You want the focus to be on you when you get in the ring. So whatever you do you want everybody to be watching you, not the other guy.” That’s what I did, so I would do things and I knew that nobody had that type of endurance to go out there and to do this and to do that without I mean, just aggression, aggression. All of the time, aggression, and things that just made people mad. It came natural, ask my wife. My God I could do anything to make her mad, or anybody else mad. Just a little of this, a little of that, the way you move your body, and the little things that would just make the average person or anybody mad. I was good at it, too good at it.

Eric: In today’s wrestling do you find that to be a lost art? I recently spoke with Sid Vicious and he was telling me that he got so much out of his career by just being able to stand there and look at a crowd. He thinks that the young guys today go out and do so much that the fans don’t even get a chance to absorb a second of it. What do you think of those sentiments from Sid?

Paul: He’s absolutely right. Listen, I don’t care what generation it is, this or that, you could take Red Skelton or some of these older comedians, and you watch the timing that they had, and what they said and everything, and today they could do the same thing. You don’t have to say a bunch of cuss words, you don’t have to say this or say that to get the attention of the people. What you do is that you learn what you do, learn the art of what you are doing, and the people will get with it. What’s happened is that the promoters have let this go on because it’s easier. It’s not so much their fault, but I challenge anybody to go out, grab a hold, and work it. But I mean to work it viciously. I’m a big fan, a big fan of Mixed Martial Arts. I love that stuff, watch some of that stuff. Listen, Vince better not worry about somebody else getting into wrestling. He’s got to about UFC, that’s who he needs to worry about because they are just packing them, and that’s all that they are talking about. Because of all these off of the ceilings that they are doing now, through ladders, it’s just too much. You’ve taken the response out of the people and they sit there and watch them do a bunch of a moves, a bunch of aerial stuff, acrobatic stuff and you are doing nothing to get them into the match, to make them mad, to do this or to do that. Something that really gets them into the match, you have taken them out of the match and the only thing that they applaud on is if someone does an unreal move, it’s crazy.

Eric: I have spoken a few times with Bruno Sammartino about the period in the mid-eighties when he came out of retirement. He has consistently said that you were the only wrestler that he enjoyed wrestling during that time period, and went out of his way to say good things about you. What are your thoughts and memories of wrestling Bruno?

Paul: I’ve got a lot of respect for Bruno from the first day that I met him. He’s a man that says what he feels. He doesn’t back up to any of these guys, promoters and whomever else and he says what he thinks. You know if it’s wrong he will say, “Let’s try this, try that,” and hey I’m all for him. The guy drew nothing but money. Bruno Sammartino man, he’s up there with the old boxers, the old legends. His name is synonymous with anybody in the wrestling world. Madison Square Garden you think of Bruno Sammartino and I was in awe when I worked with him. We worked several shows and I could not believe it. Pittsburgh, we sold the place out. The people almost rioted, I had to have one of the agents come to the ring and get me out of the ring. Yeah, because it was getting bad because I beat Bruno’s son up and he still had it! I had so much respect for him I went in there and had a good match with him, that’s what I wanted to do, and that was the way I operated. I wanted to have good matches with anybody unless they were jerk, and then I didn’t.

Eric: Did you get into any trouble when you would make references to Hogan’s lack of hair in interviews?

Paul: Get in trouble? Who am I going to get in trouble with? I said what I thought. Hey, was it the truth? Case closed.

Eric: You made the news following the WWE Hall of Fame ceremony when you refused to shake Hulk Hogan’s hand. Why didn’t you shake his hand?

Paul: I never cared for him, you know? I don’t hate him. There are very few people that I hate. The older you get, you let that go you know? I may not like certain people, and we are all that way, we’re all different. If we were all the same we would all be living in each others houses but we’re not. He took care of himself. He was a BS’er like the rest of them and I told it like it was. Look at nowadays these interviews. You’ve got script writers that tell these guys what to say. Nobody told me what to say, I could say whatever I wanted to say. I did say what I want and if they didn’t like it, I still said it. What are they going to do, fire me? (Laughs) Turner and them would have jumped on me so quick it’s ridiculous. I would have made more money too.

Eric: Why do you think people aren’t tuning in to watch pro wrestling today like they did in your era in the WWF?

Paul: Talent! No Talent! Vince McMahon has no competition. Listen, competition is good. Whenever you have no competition, you can throw whatever at the people and if you don’t like it, so what? I’ve been telling people this and they have been telling me how bad the matches are and that they don’t even watch wrestling anymore. When you see a lot of people out there, supposedly a lot of people, they cut the arenas back to about ¼ of what they normally are, and you only see what they show you, and the tickets are free. We never gave away tickets! Good gracious. So, he’s got the people out there and no competition. I wish that Fox, Murdoch would get out there and start wrestling. Because if he did, with the older talent and the people out there that know about wrestling, they know how to get it back are out there. I don’t mean in the sense that they would have to wrestle but they know how to put on a wrestling show and to get the right people and it’s going to continue to be this way until these guys learn the art of the trade, and learn how to work these people. Hey, I could still go out there and make these people mad at me. It doesn’t make a difference if they know it’s phony or this or that, it’s how believable you make it look.

Eric Gargiulo: What have you been up to since WCW was sold?

Paul Orndorff: I have been loving on my grandbabies. I’ve been changing these poopie diapers. Listen, I have children, I have grandbabies, I’ve got great grandchildren I’m a great granddad now, I’m loving it. I love being at home, but I’m bored in a sense too. I’ve gotten hurt, all of these injuries are coming back, all in all thank God I’m okay and my family is doing great. I’m doing great.

Eric: I interviewed Bill Watts a few years ago and he said a lot of great things about you. He told a great story about you and Ted Dibiase worried about being booked to wrestle for one-hour. What do you remember about that night?

Paul: Oh yeah, Jackson, Mississippi, I’ll never forget it. Bill, I like Bill Watts. A lot of people didn’t like Bill Watts, a lot of people didn’t like Ole Anderson, but I liked them. They told it like it was. They treated you like you were an athlete and I liked them. I had words with both of them. No big deal, but at least they let me say what I thought and they didn’t fire me because of it, or didn’t knock me down, mess with my pay, or this or that, he (Bill Watts) didn’t do that. Bill, he put me and Dibiase together and we were two guys that just wanted to go at it man. I mean, it was me and it was him and we went at it for an hour straight. I’ll tell you what, with the amount of time that I had, the experience I had, because Ted was ahead of me. We didn’t think that we could do it and I’ll be darned if we didn’t do it, we did do it. Here again, I worked with Harley Race many times and he would go an hour. I went an hour and fifteen minutes with Harley. Just that experience to work with somebody like Harley, the experience he had, the knowledge he had, and then when you had to go out like me and Ted, you had two young bulls that went out and did it. That was how you learned, and I learned that, and I remembered that, and I remembered this and that, about that match. We just tore it up, we tore it up man, one of the best matches that I ever had. Thanks to Bill Watts. I love Bill Watts, he gave me such confidence, he let me grow, Ernie Ladd was there as his booker, first angle that I ever had was with Ernie Ladd. Ernie has passed away now and I really had a lot of respect for Ernie Ladd, I really did. That’s how you learn, I wasn’t different from anybody else, I just worked harder.

Eric: You were in the main-event of the very first WrestleMania. How surprised are you that WrestleMania has turned into the Super Bowl of professional wrestling?

Paul: Well you know Bill Watts had that same vision when he ran the Super Dome, and I was in the main-event of two of those and worked with Bruiser Brody and I can’t think of the other go. That’s got to mean something when you are in the first WrestleMania, out of all of the people there that they could have picked. I was one of them, and that’s who they wanted in it. Then well I don’t need to get into this thing you know, the belt. The belt, you know I should have had that belt. There’s no doubt about it.

Eric: I don’t think there is any doubt that there was a lot of money left on the table with you not getting a run with the WWF title.

Paul: Right, right. Exactly.

Eric: One thing you did that I want to ask you about is using your robe as part of your wrestling psychology. The way you slowly took the robe off, the way your opponents would grab the robe and put it on for heat, the way you touched the robe, it was just such a great tool and you were masterful with it.

Paul: Well yeah you’re right, I was a master. That’s because I watched everybody else and I wanted to be different. I wanted to be different in the ring, what I’ve done, what I said, and how I went about doing my job, and that’s it. If you did it the old, conventional way, I can tell you that I wasn’t going to, because I didn’t want to be like everybody else. I didn’t want to be like Gorgeous George. I wanted to be like him a little bit, but I didn’t want to be him the whole way because everybody had robes, and everybody had done this, and everybody had done that, you can’t help it if you weren’t born yet, but I did mine different because I had the whole deal. I had the body, I had the interview, I had the looks, I had it all, there was no where that I was weak, nowhere. That’s what made promoters mad because they couldn’t control me.

Eric: I heard a story that the WWF booked you in Japan for awhile when they first signed you. Is that true?

Paul: Well I was sent over there with them for about seven, eight months. At that time I was with Turner, Georgia Championship Wrestling. At this time this big feud was getting ready to happen with Vince taking over the world. The Grahams, Watts, all these places all over, all these, everywhere. The territories were having meetings, and this, and that, wanting to know what they were going to do, and they were pushing some of us to signing contracts. With Georgia, they wanted me to sign a contract but no guaranteed money or nothing, just to sign a contract. I went, “No! I aint signing no contract,” and then I get this call from Vince McMahon Senior, and we talked. I like gambles, I like to do something that’s different, the idea of Vince’s son taking over and having all of the big shows, all this and the visions they had, and to be a part of it. If it worked it’d be great, if it didn’t, hey listen, they’re going to hire you regardless if you are good. Of course I might have been blackballed, I don’t know but I know this. I would have still had a job up there in New York since Vince had such a strong hold up there and there was nobody going to take that territory away, he was just too strong politically and everything else. I thought it was a win, win but it was a gamble me leaving the South, but I did. And he said “I’ll send you over to Japan until we start up.” In an agreement he guaranteed me that I’d make more money than I had ever made, he guaranteed it, and I did it. That’s what happened, he kept his word.

Eric: Why do you think you weren’t given such a big push when you went to WCW in 1990?

Paul: Well I had gotten hurt you have to remember that I had gotten hurt. I still had to work, I still worked. I worked in the office, I did both, after getting hurt the way I was hurt it took a lot out of me. I never was the same after that to be honest. I don’t hold that against them or anything at all, although I could have been in a better position, I could have been, and I should have been. That’s okay, it’s no big deal, I have no qualms over it.

Eric: How did you get hurt?

Paul: It was one specific match, it was in Canada. I got kicked under the chin, out of a stupid mistake on somebody else’s part. I don’t know if it was out of stupidity or what, but it was really a stupid mistake that this person made.

Eric: What do you remember the fight you had with Vader in WCW?

Paul: The last thing I remember is that I was kicking him in the face with my flip-flops on and it hurt.

Eric: Is it true that Meng/Haku had to pull you off?

Paul: Yep. Well they had a lot of people there. It was one of those unfortunate things that happened. The only thing that I am thankful for is that if my body wasn’t hurt and I didn’t have all of that nerve damage on my right, God knows I might be in jail for killing him. I am not taking anything from anybody.

Eric: Paul, it seems like we just started this interview a minute ago. What a fast hour?

Paul: Well, we need to do it again Eric. Thank you, if it hadn’t been for the people I wouldn’t have been anything. I truly mean that. That’s why I worked so hard in the ring, so they got their money’s worth.

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Eric: What she has been up to?

Rena: Oh my gosh there is so much going on. How much time do you have? It’s fabulous. I can tell you that I just returned from Prague, I shot my first full length feature, it’s a two hour made for TV movie. It’s called “Ariana’s Quest,” and I play Queen Ariana. I was in Prakk for about four weeks and probably had one of the most exciting times in my life. We just returned from that. Marc actually went with me. We had just a fabulous time. This will air sometime in the spring of 2001. I am on the cover of Muscular Development, which is available now and I have my comic book that is out. It’s called “The Tenth Muse” and you can pick it up at all Tower Records or anywhere they sell comic books and it is about Emasana, who works in the courts and is a District Attorney during the day and fights crime at night. She is the tenth daughter of Zeus and her special skill is martial arts and I’m very excited about that because it has only been out about 20 days now and is number six in the country. Thank you to my fans. They are fabulous, they continue to support everything I do and without them I don’t have a career, so I just want to say thank you for being there.

Eric:Is your comic going to be a regular series?

Rena: Yes, it will be bimonthly to begin with and then it will be monthly..

Eric: Did you ever think that Chyna would wind up doing Playboy?

Rena: You know what, I don’t put anything past anyone because if you want something bad enough you go for it and she took the initiative and she contacted them and asked them if she could do it. She should be extremely proud of herself, I actually saw the photos and she l ooked beautiful and a lot of people tried to compare the two of us and there is absolutely no comparison. The people that she attracts, I will not attract. We are just two totally different women, and she has her own agenda, and she is doing her own thing, and she should be very proud, I’m proud of her. She definitely made a stand and being the first woman with her physical stature that has been in Playboy is quite an accomplishment.

Eric: Do you think Chyna’s statements on Trish about Trish being in the business only because of her look is hypocritical?

Rena: Well I think that’s exactly right (Chyna being hypocritical) and although I don’t personally know Trish, Chyna was hired for that particular reason (her look), so it could play either way. Whether it be muscles or t and a kind of thing. I think you can play Devil’s advocate and go either way with that kind of thing. I don’t like to judge other people’s statements and I don’t know why she would have made that statement, but in my opinion I don’t say anything about anybody, because I have my own life and I only make choice for myself. I understand that Trish is a pretty nice girl.

Eric: Do you have any plans to do Playboy again?

Rena: It’s very possible, Playboy and I have a very close relationship. They named me the “sex star of the new millennium,” so I’m sure that we’ll do something in the future. I have been asked to do a Playboy video, which I am not interested in doing. Whether I’m ever interested or not I don’t know, but at this time I’m definitely not, but possibly another layout and when Ariana’s Quest comes out that may be a perfect time to do that. They are the most professional, funnest, people I ever worked with and that was another exciting moment in my life.

On her first Playboy issue bringing pro wrestling more into the mainstream?

Rena: Well, I think it did. I know that I definitely broadened Playboy’s sales. I opened up a lot eyes of Playboy readers that weren’t necessarily wrestling fans. I think in some ways it absolutely did do that. It was a good relationship for both Playboy and wrestling. I think now that wrestling has come out to say “we are not sports, we are sports entertainment,” it can actually have an entertainment aspect to the product we deliver and there is a big difference between being true competitors and being amazing athletes and the people in the wrestling industry are amazing athletes. Marc was in the business for ten years, I was in the business for three. I went as far as I could possibly go in wrestling, you know once you become the women’s champion of the world there really is no place you could go but down. It was never my intention to be involved in wrestling. To be in it for three years is still shocking that I was in it for that long, and accomplished so much in such a little time. I just wanted to make progress, I wanted to move forward, I had so many other things in my life that I wanted to do and acting is my true love and if I ever wanted to pursue that I needed to move on. That was the path that I had originally intended traveling on and I kind of took a detour and now I’m back on track.

Eric: On the rumors of her interest in returning to the World Wrestling Federation?

Rena: You know what, I would not ever turn down the possibility of returning to the WWF. We actually did not ever speak, that could have just been a rumor. Whether or not they are interested or not I’m not sure, but I can honestly say that my main objective right now is definitely my acting career and you know I never say never. I don’t know where my life would take me again. If I was ever asked to return to the WWF I would definitely consider it. It was a fabulous time in my life, I mean it opened so many doors and gave me so much enjoyment, and gave me an opportunity to do what I enjoy doing which is acting. Whether you want to call it wrestling, sports entertainment, whatever, it’s still acting and that’s what I enjoy doing.

Eric: What do you attribute the success to the Sable character? Do you think the business is too over saturated with women currently?

Rena: I think it’s wonderful that women are having the opportunity to be involved in the wrestling business. Honestly, I’d like to think that I had a lot to do with that. I think that women have proven themselves over and over again in this business and it’s great that they are given the opportunity once again. Back in the days of the Fabulous Moolah, and Wendy Richter, they were the forerunners of this business, Luna even. They kind of disappeared for a while and I came in and it all picked up again and that’s actually when they brought the women’s championship back. It was a wonderful time and I’m glad it’s continuing. I don’t think it’s oversaturated, you could argue that either way. Is it oversaturated with the guys? I just think it’s wonderful that women are given the opportunity. I contribute my success to the Sable character to the fans. The fans, if they are not behind you, whether they like you or dislike you, if they don’t react to you in any way, you really don’t have a chance in this business. Luckily, they supported me, they really took to my character, and I think we all had a lot of fun with it. I hope that everyone that watches understands that this is entertainment and the people that we portray on television is not who we are in real life. We may have a lot of the same qualities or a lot of the same traits to our personality, but Sable was like my alter ego. She was the person that allowed Rena to do everything that Rena didn’t have the guts to do. I think it was just a hunger at the time for women to return to wrestling and the fans just ate it up and they continue to do so. I would like to think that if I was still in wrestling, that I would still be the number one female. I think everyone likes to think that. I think that my character broke ground that no other woman in this business has ever done before.

Eric: On working with Vince Russo in the WWF?

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Rena: Actually Vince Rusoo was a great guy and we had a wonderful relationship. He never insisted that I do anything. He always brought it to our attention and asked if we felt comfortable with it and then we would let him know one way or the other. There were a lot of times that we did disagree on things, but he had a job to do and his job was writer. He came up with the best storylines that would be fulfilling for the fans, then you go into negotiations and you discuss things and you compromise. Outside of the business I think he was a really nice guy and we had a great relationship, but then you have to look at the professional side of things, everyone has a job to do and everyone has to do that job. Unfortunately, some toes get stepped on and sometimes you have hard feelings between people, but it’s not anything personal. You know, I don’t have any hard feelings against Vince McMahon or anyone in the WWF in general. I thoroughly enjoyed it, it’s just very unfortunate that we couldn’t come to a more amicable split.

Eric: What are your thoughts on negative comments that Jim Cornette has made about you publicly?

Rena: (laughing) , I haven’t heard anything about him.I make the decisions that are right for me in my life and I live by my rules and if I upset or offend people by the choices that I make in life, I’m sorry. The only thing that I could hope is that they may not always agree with my choice, but I hope that they respect my opinion or my choice. Whether you agree or not, I just hope you respect it.

Eric: Why was Marc’s appearance in WCW only a one time deal?

Rena: I think when it happened, Vince Russo was very involved in the storylines at that time. I think that they both just kind of felt it out to see if either of them were interested in it. It’s a pretty good possibility that Marc could return at any time. We’ve been so busy doing all the other things that we have been doing in our life right now and ten years is a good chunk of your life and maybe it’s just better to move on.

Eric: What are your thoughts on negative comments that Mick Foley has made about you and Marc publicly?

Rena: It’s very unfortunate that when you part ways, that’s when all of the negativity comes about you. I could almost guarantee you that if I was still there, they wouldn’t be saying anything. They didn’t have anything negative to say. Now that I’m gone they’re going to bring up whatever. I know that he made one comment that I wasn’t very intelligent and how smart do you have to be to take your clothes off and get paid a million dollars for it. Well, how smart do you have be to get hit over the head with a chair? Not just once, not just twice, you know I have gone on to do other things and t hat is one thing that I wanted to prove is that I had so much to do in my life and so many goals and that wrestling is not the end all for me. It was a wonderful time in my life, it was a great stepping stone, but there is so much more I want to do and I think that sometimes you just get so settled in a place in your life and so comfortable that you never go out and explore the other opportunities. One of the reasons I left was not because I had this wonderful job waiting for me or a safety net, it’s cause I had to try to follow my dream, and become an actress. It’s very unfortunate that people, you know they always say that when you bad mouth other people it’s because of your own insecurities and if you don’t have anything nice to say about people don’t say anything at all. It’s just sour grapes. I don’t have anything to say about him negative, he has a wonderful wife and a wonderful family, I wish everybody the best. Everybody makes choices for themselves and this was a choice I had to make for me. Would you recommend the WWF stock as a buy? Rena: Actually I own lots of stocks and portfolios and that is not one of them. Not for any particular reason, I just have my favorites. I haven’t watched it close enough to see what it’s doing. Last time I checked it was down from the actual opening, the buy and the purchase price of it so.

Eric: When does your no-compete clause expire?

Rena: Actually, I think it was two or three years and I either have a year or two (laughs). One of the reasons that I agreed to that was that I didn’t want to have this to fall back on. I really wanted to go out there and be aggressive and make my own way. If I was wanting to go to a different company, I would have never left wrestling. I mean WWF is where it’s at. So, that was never an option that I wanted open for me. I really wanted to go out on my own and really try and make this acting thing work for me and it hasn’t been an easy transition. It has in some ways been an easy transition. Acting is a very difficult field to break into. Fortunately, I did have a lot of people that believed in me and gave me an opportunity. I have my first movie coming out. I have a lot of different opportunities to do different sitcoms and shows on television, but I don’t want to be stereotyped as the guest star and the guest star on that show, and they always want you to do the boxing or the wrestling and that kind of a thing, so I am really trying to be wise as to the choices that I make.

Eric: Do you miss the wrestling business?

Rena: There were certain things I miss about it. Performing in front of a live audience, the enthusiasm of the fans. That kind of a thing you do miss. .

Eric: What is your opinion on the WWF possibly purchasing WCW? Rena: As far as I know, the negotiations are completely off at this time. I don’t think it is a good idea, I mean I think it would be wonderful for Vince McMahon. I think that you need some competition. The players in the business, the wrestlers themselves, the talent. They need to know that there is two different teams and have some negotiating power. Like if one person owned all of the NFL teams, there would be no negotiating power or free agents, and no changing teams, and there would be no changing of federations, there would be no where for you to go and I don’t think it’s good to just have one monopoly on the entire business.

Eric: Are you interested in purchasing WCW?

Rena: (laughing) No, I am not. I am interested in furthering my acting career. I would like to just mention to everyone to check out my website at www.renamero.com and my comic book “The Tenth Muse,” there are two collector’s covers that are on the newsstands now, and my Muscular Development that is out now and I will definitely keep you posted as to when my movie comes out.

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Eric: Bobby what are the reasons behind writing your new book?

Bobby: There were many reasons to write the new book. Well, money. But also my writer, Steve Anderson, he said ‘let’s do it different.’ My agent said ‘let’s do a motivational book. Can you motivate anybody?’ I said I can motivate people to kill me.

Eric: (Laughs)

Bobby: So I just sat down and I wanted it real truthful on how I felt. A friend of mine wrote a book, a couple years ago, and he’s in sports, but he’s not a wrestler. He wrote in the book something that wasn’t true about me. It wasn’t bad. You and I haven’t meant, right?

Eric: Right.

Bobby: It would be like if I wrote a book and if I said, I was on your radio show and then afterwards we went out for dinner in Philly and we had six Philly cheesesteak sandwiches and two cases of beer and we had a great night. But that never happened and he wrote that we did something like that. So I couldn’t go on with the book any further, because I didn’t know if the rest of it was bs. If I want to read fiction, I would get Harry Hopper or Harry Porter or Veronica and Archie and Bughead or whatever those guys are called. I don’t want to read something that I think is going to be true and then I find out that it’s a bunch of crap. My book isn’t like that. My books are as much as I can remember and as truthful as I can get. I will never talk about infidelity. I will never talk about money because that’s personal. That’s too personal for me. And plus they may have pictures of me and a goat or something and I don’t want to get involved with that.

Eric: Especially with the Internet these days.

Bobby: Or a picture with me and Moolah!

Eric: (Laughs)

Bobby: And Mae.

Eric: It’s funny you bring that analogy up because Larry King, actually, they called him on the carpet, I think it was several years ago, where he wrote that he had dinner and grew up with Sandy Kofax and Sandy Kofax said ‘I never met the guy.’

Bobby: And that ruins all your credibility. It does to me. If it’s a fiction book, than I understand you having dinner with somebody, but if it’s supposed to be true, it better be.

Eric: Have you started or are you going to start doing any kind of motivational speaking?

Bobby: No, I haven’t been asked to do any of that. I don’t know why. I guess a lot of people think, because I’m getting over throat cancer and my speech is a little different then it once was, that I people can no longer understand. Well, I don’t know. All that radiation I had, it swells your tongue. It feels like I’m making out with Mr. Ed.

Eric: (Laughs)

Bobby: And then they took off some my tongue in the back. And my esophagus is smaller. That changes your speech a lot, too. That’s why they gave us fingers; I can still get my message by.

Eric: All you need is one, right?

Bobby: That’s it!

Eric: And again, ladies and gentlemen, we’re talking to Bobby Heenan. Bobby, something I talked a lot about, even before you and I talked about coming on the air, was your Hall of Fame induction speech this past spring for the WWE. It’s a piece of art; I think it is. After I watched the whole entire ceremony, and, specifically, your speech, it actually makes you proud to be a wrestling fan. Your speech alone, I told the people on my radio show, go out and buy the DVD, for this man’s speech alone is such so tremendous. That speech you had, how much of that came off the top of your head?

Bobby: I didn’t have anything. When I was called at home by Jim Ross, I said sure. I was thinking of how I am going to open up, what I was going to say, who’s going to be there. I don’t want start out knocking this guy or I don’t want to put this guy over. I don’t really know what to do. I’m just going to go there and see what happens and I really didn’t have anything. So I was sitting there talking to Muraco and Tito. Then when they started the show and started introducing us, I didn’t know what I’m going to do. See, I never like to rehearse anything. Monsoon and I never rehearsed a thing. There was nothing written. I can’t say other people’s words and I can’t remember things people write. I just have to do it on my own. That’s the only way I’ve ever done interviews or anything, forty years in the business.

Eric: Gotcha.

Bobby: I went out there and I sat down and I listened to everybody. There’s a lot of good guys out there, but it seemed like everybody wanted to kiss up to Vince McMahon and his family and talk about how great the McMahons are. They’re okay, they’re good people. I have no arguments with Vince, or Linda, or Shane, or Stephanie, or any of the McMahons. They’re nice people to meet. A lot of guys don’t like McMahon, but look at it this way. A lot of guys don’t like Steinbrenner, until you play for him.

Eric: Right, exactly.

Bobby: Everybody wants to play for the Yankees. As soon as they get traded because they’re no good, George is an a-hole. I’m a personal friend of George and all the managers he had, Billy Martin, Bob Lemon, all those guys, and when he fired them, he still paid them. He still kept them on the payroll. There was a school bus on the road one night that broke down, going towards Orlando, about fifty kids on the bus. Steinbrenner’s driving to Orlando for something. He pulls over at a McDonalds and buys 500 dollars worth of burgers, brings them back, gives them to the bus driver and drives away.

Eric: Did he really?

Bobby: That’s right. He did a lot of things nobody knows about. Vince’s father would stop on the road at a diner or a Denny’s and have breakfast in the morning, and there’d be a family, maybe have five or three or four kids or something. Senior would go over and pick up the guy’s check without the guy knowing, and pay and leave. So there’s a lot of things that McMahons do and a lot of people do that people don’t understand. And the reason people don’t like Vince is because they aren’t being used by Vince. And the ones that are being used by Vince, think Vince is stealing from you. Why would you work for someone you think is stealing from you? Quit and go home. Wash the dishes. Have fun.

Eric: You’re right. You’re absolutely right.

Bobby: So I went up there and I wasn’t go to say a whole lot about the McMahons or anything. It’s just went I started off, I thought everyone would think my voice was bad because of the cancer. So that’s why I started off with the voice. (Makes raspy sounds.) And then I turned around and said I had a wedgie.

Eric: That was tremendous.

Bobby: And then when the people popped, I knew I had them. So I just went from there. I could have gone another hour, if I had more water to keep my mouth moist. Seeing the guys, and my good friend, Ernie Ladd, who was pretty sick by the way…

Eric: That’s a shame.

Bobby: Seeing Harley, and Blackjack, and Muraco, and Tito. Tito, who I really respect, what a great man he is. What great children and family he has. I haven’t seen Jesse since he was governor of Minnesota. It was a fun night. It was really enjoyable and I had a ball.

Eric: That’s tremendous. Was that the longest speech you’d ever given wrestling related in your career?

Bobby: I’ve never given one before.

Eric: Okay, there you go.

Bobby: Never had to. I just did interviews or did the openings for Prime Time or the openings for Raw or something like that. 30 second or minute and a half open. I don’t know how long I talked. A couple minutes I guess; three four minutes, I don’t know. It was going good and it was fun, like I said, I could have gone longer. I just realized that I was stepping on other people’s time. It was fun. A lot of people asked, ‘Where is the wrestling hall of fame?’ I said, ‘You know where Cooperstown is?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ I said, ‘It’s nowhere near it.’

Eric: (Laughs)

Bobby: You know, Cooperstown doesn’t mean anything to guys in the NFL and Akron doesn’t mean anything to guys in baseball. And the wrestling hall of fame doesn’t mean anything to anyone who isn’t a wrestling fan or a wrestler. And the fans like it; I like it. It was somebody honored me, which nobody did before. I thought it was an honor. I thought the fans should be entertained and it was fun.

Eric: And what I really liked about it, too, it came off really classy. They didn’t pull any shenanigans, like in the past. The whole event seemed pretty classy.

Bobby: I thought there’d be a pie fight or something.

Eric: Right. (Laughs) Right.

Bobby: Somebody down and pull your pants down.

Eric: Going from a positive experience, to one of the more strange experiences, at least from people that I’ve talked to that attended and from what I’ve read about, the Cauliflower Alley Banquet this year. Are you going to continue to be a part of it, because I’ve read some places where you said you didn’t want anything to do with it anymore and some places where you said you may?

Bobby: No, I’m not going to do it anymore. It’s just not fun anymore. There’s two different kinds of wrestling fans. You know the difference between a fan and a mark?

Eric: What’s that?

Bobby: A fan will come up to you and say, ‘what a great match. I really enjoyed the show tonight.’ A mark wants to find out where you live and move into your house with you.

Eric: (Laughs)

Bobby: And that’s the truth. All those guys there are wannabe wrestlers that will never make it. The people that come around and to have to deal with wrestlers from the past, which turn my stomach. It’s not fun anymore. I was in the hospital. They told me I had a cancer. I’m lying in bed and I said ‘If I ever get out of here, I’m never going to do nothing I don’t want to do, again.’ And that’s one of them. I respect Red Bastien and Nick Bockwinkel. Some people there I do not respect, because you don’t let marks run your business. That’s what happened there. And it’s just not fun. By the time I bring my wife out there- you stay at a hotel, you see some friends, my brothers are out there, so that’s okay, but it’s like a couple grand. If I want to spend a couple grand, I’m going to a massage parlor. I don’t want to go see a bunch of broken down wrestlers.

Eric: Has that been the most refreshing part of this whole new phase in your career post-WCW, is being able to do what you want and having fun doing it?

Bobby: Oh yeah, because I know what I’m going to make now. I don’t have to be sent to some town you can’t find on the map. I don’t have to change planes four times. I do what I have to do now. This is my fee, if you want to pay it, I’ll do it, if you don’t want, fine, I don’t care. I don’t need the money. I’m just doing it to have fun and to get out of the house. If I stay home another couple months, I might turn into OJ here.

Eric: (Laughs)

Bobby: I can only sit in my shorts so long and watch Judge Judy, or else I’ll go nuts.

Eric: I can imagine. Again, we’re talking to 2004 WWE Hall of Fame inductee, the legendary, Bobby “The Brain” Heenan. Bobby, when you were on the radio show last year, you talked about all of the good people, your former co-workers, employers, that had called you when you were in bed with the cancer. You said at the time, and you were very disappointed, that you had not yet heard from Vince. Did he eventually call you, before your Hall of Fame induction?

Bobby: No. If Vince had to call everyone who was sick, he’d be on the phone all day and couldn’t run his business. When Larry Henning’s son died, Curt, he [Curt] was in Tampa. I got a phone call from Wade Boggs’ wife. She called me and said, ‘Did you hear anything about Curt?’ I said, ‘What do you mean, Debbie?’ And she said, ‘I just got a call from his wife and she said the police came and he had died here in Tampa.’ I didn’t even know Curt was in town. I used to see him every Christmas and in the summer, Curt and I would go play in Wade’s golf tournament and we’d go over his house at Christmas and have a party. We always had a good time with Wade. He did a lot of things for Curt in wrestling, too. He did the Mr. Perfect shots with him. I called Wade back and no one knew anything. Then, after a half hour later, everyone was calling. I never talked to Larry Henning, until I saw him in March of this year. You know why?

Eric: Why?

Bobby: If you lose your wife, that’s kind of expected. Or if you lose your husband, that’s expected. But if you lose your child, what can I say? I’m sorry? He knows I’m sorry. My condolences? He knows that. If there’s anything you need? I cannot tell a father that I’m sorry he lost his son or child. I didn’t know what to say. I have known Larry and Curt since 1967, almost 40 years. I watched Curt go to school, while Larry, Blackjack, and I would leave to go to a town in the morning. I didn’t know what to say. Vince is probably the kind of person, who doesn’t like to call, and doesn’t like to hear bad things. He was pleasant to me. He was polite to me. They honored me the night before; they took care of me at Wrestlemania. I have no problems at all. Some people just aren’t like that. I understand why you can’t call sometimes; what are you going to say? So that’s okay. He’s out of the will, though, but that’s okay.

Eric: (Laughs) Are you going to be doing anything special with the WWE anytime soon?

Bobby: Nope, I haven’t heard anything. I told them when I left, if something comes up, and it isn’t too time consuming and involves a lot of money, I’ll do it. I don’t want to work everyday. I don’t want a schedule. I said if you need an ambassador, someone to go meet and greet people or do something like that at a convention, sign autographs before Wrestlemania, I don’t mind doing that. I don’t want to be on camera, I don’t want to work anymore, be a manager; I don’t want to do commentary. I’m just happy with what I’m doing now. I’m on my way to the beach, right now. It’s 92 here in Tampa. I’m going to Clearwater Beach to spend the day with my wife and family and some friends. That’s what I’m doing now. I’m just having a good time.

Eric: Well, if it makes you feel any better, it’s thunderstorming all day here.

Bobby: Well, it’s Philadelphia. It needs to be cleaned a little bit.

Eric: (Laughs) We need all the help we can get.

Bobby: Sure, it’s summer. I like Philly. I always had a great time at the Spectrum. It’s a good town. Sports fans are really good fans there. People knock them a lot because they’re noisy and lousy and just because they wear t-shirts, and there are sweat rings on it, and they have goatees, and their heads are shaved, and they’re swearing and spitting, and that’s just the women!

Eric: (Laughs) Bobby Heenan, ladies and gentlemen

Bobby: Philly’s a good town.

Eric: Before I go to the break, there’s been some controversy over the last two three weeks, and you’d be a great man to ask about this, because you’ve worked with both and been around both of them. I don’t know if you’re aware, but Ric Flair…

Bobby: If you tell me Mae Young’s pregnant, it’s not me!

Eric: (Laughs) Well, alright, that’s it. The rumors are dispelled.

Bobby: If the kid comes out with no hair and a moustache, it’s Okerlund’s.

Eric: (Laughs) And a martini in his hand, right?

Bobby: And a little bitty tuxedo, that don’t fit.

Eric: (Laughs) Ric Flair put out a book, a tremendous book. Have you had a chance to read it?

Bobby: Nope.

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Eric: Okay. He took a lot of knocks at a few people, Bret Hart in particular. He said in comparing he and Bret Hart, that there are no comparisons. He said that Bret was not a good worker. He got real personal with the guy. You were, obviously around Flair as his manager for the first part of his run and around Bret for the first time he came into the WWE.

Bobby: I was around Bret in 1979. He lived across the hall from me when I working for Georgia Championship Wrestling in 1979.

Eric: Oh wow.

Bobby: So I’ve known Bret a long time.

Eric: So what are your thoughts on something like that?

Bobby: I think it’s okay. It’s a man’s opinion, he has a right to say it. I think, personally, that Ric Flair, along with Hogan, have probably been the greatest entertainers our business has ever had. Bret Hart, to me, is an exceptional worker. He’s very good. He’s fresh. His moves are great. He has a Canadian interview, which is a little laid back, he doesn’t really get excited. But his work in the ring, and as a gentlemen, outside of the ring, I love the guy.

Eric: Excellent.

Bobby: I love Flair, too. Flair wrote the forward for my book. And what goes on between Flair and him, maybe that was business, I don’t know anything about. There’s only two books I’ve ever read in my life.

Eric: What’s that?

Bobby: Three books. One was called Number One by Billy Martin. One was called Balls- B- A- L-L-S. The only reason I read those was I was in Japan for thirty days and I had nothing to do. I read Arn Anderson’s book. I haven’t read my own book.

Eric: You haven’t read your own book?

Bobby: No, I wrote them, why should I read them? I know what’s in them. I don’t want to read them again. I’m not that vain. I look at the pictures, but that’s about it. Arn Anderson’s book is the only book I read. I haven’t read Flair’s yet, because I didn’t know it was out. I will read it though, his book I would read. I don’t want to read a book by a guy that’s been in the business for two years. What’s he got to tell me about?

Eric: As a guy that’s worked in wrestling for ten years, and I’ve grown up watching wrestling since I was eight, I feel the same way, when I guy puts a book out, what is there to talk about?

Bobby: All he can talk about is last week on TV. Most of these guys today haven’t been to other territories, because when they started there were no other territories. Then these guys make twenty-five dollars a week, they make money. I started in ’65. I was in Tennessee, where guys would put a pot roast in tin foil and put it on the engine of the car, and drive to a town 300 miles away, threw six guys in the car, didn’t have enough money to stop and eat, took the pot roast out, three dollar pot roast, have it with some carrots, throw the rest to the side of the road, and that’s how they ate. My first pay out in Louisville, Kentucky, I almost got killed with five dollars.

Eric: I think you told the story last time you were on the air here. Did you write that in your book, as well? I think you wrote about that.

Bobby: Yeah. I got things to write about. I can talk about Gene Kiniski, Pat O’ Connor, Buddy Rogers. Say Diamond Dallas, for example. What did he talk about? I mean guys that haven’t been the top guys or haven’t been in the business that long or are interesting enough for people to read about. I certainly don’t want to read about. I don’t want to talk to them.

Eric: What’s funny, when I had Curt Henning on the radio show here, who was such a great guest when I had him on, he talked a lot about Paige’s book, at the time I guess DDP just put out his book, and he just went on, for like five to ten minutes, and went off about him putting out his book.

Bobby: See, I never read his book so I can’t knock it.

Eric: He didn’t either.

Bobby: I’m not knocking him, I’m saying for his time. Like, The Rock. The Rock has at least succeeded, and then movies, and was at the top of the WWE and WWF. Was at Miami and played football. His father-in-law, his father, he’s got some stories here. Other guys: I started out in Philadelphia at wrestling school three weeks ago.

BREAK

Eric: Again, we’re talking to WWE Hall of Fame inductee, Bobby “The Brain” Heenan. Bobby, we were talking a little about Ole Anderson and Georgia Championship Wrestling. What was it like working for Ole?

Bobby: Let me explain something to you about Ole Anderson. I’ll explain to you right from the top. You got a minute, right?

Eric: Oh yeah.

Bobby: Okay, Ole Anderson comes off like he was a big star in this business. Ole Anderson was nothing more than Southern tag team wrestler. I remember in the late 60’s, Ole Anderson would come to Chicago, he’s from Minneapolis, his name’s Alan Rogowski, he would come to Chicago, and ask Verne Gagne, while he was still in the army, if he could break into the business. I remember him standing in the International Amphitheater, in a locker room downstairs, waiting to talk to Verne. Verne broke him in and then sent him to Calgary. Only two reasons you go to Calgary, it’s like Kansas City and Indianapolis: you go there to start or you go there to die. There’s nothing left for you in the business; that’s the only place left for you to make money. So that’s what he went there for, to learn how to start. If he was any good, Verne would have brought him back. Here’s another thing, he was the booker for Georgia Championship Wrestling, right?

Eric: Yes.

Bobby: He controlled everything. How come he never worked on top with the champion? Whether it be Funk, whether it be Ric Flair, or whether it be Harley Race. How come he never worked on top in St. Louis? How come he never worked on top in Houston? Those were the top NWA towns. St. Louis was the first place they ever used a manager, and that was me. Ole Anderson never worked there on top. Now, if he was a booker, how come he never booked himself in a match with Flair? Because Jim Barnett, the promoter, said ‘Don’t do it. You won’t draw a dime.’ And he knew it, too. He was always involved in tag team wrestling, with Gene Anderson, or with Ivan Koloff. Oh, he went out in that ring. He busted his butt. He worked hard. He had a lot of bad timing. He didn’t know how to beg off from a comeback; he didn’t know when to beg. He didn’t know how to sell that well. He wanted to be a tough guy. I came down there in 1979, in February, and I left my wife and daughter at home. My daughter was just born in December; she was three months old. My mother died in April, and I had to go back home and bury my mother. She died on a Monday night and I was back to work on Thursday because I had to feed my wife and daughter. I could’ve taken more time off to grieve, but what was that going to do? I had to go feed them. So I went back to work and asked Ole, ‘How long do I have here?’ He said, ‘You can stay here as long as you want.’ Well, I stayed twelve years in Minneapolis, and I could’ve stayed a lot of places longer, so I moved my family, my wife and daughter, to Atlanta, in June. Then in October, he gave me my notice, said I was making too much money and he fired me. When I went back in 1994, Ole was working in the office. I don’t know if he was emptying out trashcans or putting paper out in the craphouse; he was doing something remedial there. He said, ‘Hey, Bobby, how have you been?’ I said, ‘Hey, what happened? How come you fired me?’ He said, ‘I don’t remember you getting fired? Where did you go? You just disappeared.’ What kind of boss would he be if he didn’t know where his talent is? No, Ole was not a top guy. He only worked in tag team situations. Tag team was never used on top at the Omni. Sometimes it was, mostly spot shows around Atlanta. He was maybe a big name in Marietta, but he never worked with the champion. That tells you if he was top guy or not. Ox Baker never worked with a champion, he never was a major territorial star, because they just aren’t top guys. And Ole Anderson, being a booker, if he was a top guy, he’d have worked with a champion. Wouldn’t he?

Eric: Yeah, absolutely.

Bobby: He didn’t, because the promoter told him, ‘don’t book it, it won’t draw.’ He didn’t want to be embarrassed, if the promoter didn’t tell him and if he had to make the decision himself not to do it, because it wouldn’t have made a dime. It’s that simple. The two most hated men I’ve ever met in this business are Ole Anderson and Joe Scarpa, Chief Jay Strongbow.

Eric: Really?

Bobby: Yes. The way they talk to people. The way Ole Anderson would demean Pez Whatley, talk to down to Bubba Douglas, make fun of Tony Atlas, just talk bad to everyone he could get his hands on- Chick Donovan, an extra, an underneath guy, treat them like garbage. He just wanted to hate everyone; he wanted to come off as mean and tough, but we all know how tough he is, because every year Blackjack Mulligan would beat his ass in a dressing room, that he couldn’t see out his swollen eye for two weeks. That’s the truth. Mulligan used to beat him up once a year. You could set your watch to it. So Ole Anderson is nothing. He’s lucky he was in the business. The only reason he was booker was he would do that for minimal pay and take the heat when other boys wouldn’t want to be involved. I’ve been asked to be a booker in a lot of places; I don’t want the responsibility of having to fire people, hire people, if a good friend of mine calls for work, I can’t tell him no, I just don’t have that kind of personality. A person that has that kind of personality doesn’t have that much of a heart, I feel. That’s what I think of Ole Anderson. I think Ole Anderson is a piece of sh**. Right out there and back.

Eric: Bobby, I don’t have a delay here.

Bobby: Okay, he’s a big piece of sh*t.

Eric: There you go.

Bobby: It’s in the dictionary if you want to look it up.

Eric: I appreciate your candid comments and candid they were.

Bobby: And the reason Strongbow was so disliked is because he was an agent. If he liked you, he’d put you on first and second and get you out of there. Honky Tonk Man, he didn’t like. Sometimes he [Honky] didn’t get home for 90 days. He took his wife and little boy on the road to see him. He put Honky Tonk on last, after the main event, make his wife sit in the building since 6 o’ clock until 11 o’ clock at night, when you could have put the guy on first, and let the guy go home and be with his family. Abuse of authority, he’s another of piece of you know what. See, I’m getting better.

Eric: (Laughs) And you’re getting wound up, too.

Bobby: Well, it makes me mad, when Ole Anderson, who never drew a dime in this business, never did anything in this business, knocks a man like Ric Flair, who held the belt 20 times, who knows how many, and it’s because of the work, you don’t win anything, they give it to you. If you have enough respect for this business, for someone to give you a belt, and run with it, like the NWA belt and WCW belt, you have to ask Ric Flair, and Dory Funk, and the Briscos, and Harley Race what it means to be champion. Ole Anderson was a disgrace, as far I’m concerned, to the business.

Eric: Wow.

Bobby: You can tell him I said that, I don’t care.

Eric: I’ve never talked to the man in my life, other than meeting him when I was a kid. Again, we’re talking to 2004 Hall of Fame inductee, Bobby “The Brain” Heenan.

Bobby: How come he never worked in Minneapolis on top?

Eric: Especially since that’s where you said he broke in.

Bobby: How come he never went to New York? They had a lot worse workers there than Ole. His excuse was that he said he could make himself 100 grand here doing this and that. I don’t know if he was making that or not, who knows. I’ll tell you what I was making down there. I was making 700 to 900 dollars a week in ’79. And if he was making twice as much as me, he wasn’t making 100 grand.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Bobby: If he was making three times as me, it still wasn’t worth it, to work seven days a week, and drive every day and be in Georgia. When I grew up, my first four years, I had three teeth and was making a mess in my pants and I thought I was the governor of Georgia.

Eric: (Laughs) How about we take some calls? Let’s bring up Ron first.

Caller Ron: It’s an honor to talk to you again. I talked to you the first time you were on and it’s an honor to you have back. My question is what do you think of the direction of the WWE now and can you please call us humanoids, we miss that.

Bobby: Okay, you’re a humanoid, Ron.

Eric: And his second question was what do you think of the current direction of the WWE?

Bobby: I’m not watching the product. I’m in the process of moving and I’m busy doing that. And when I was sick, I didn’t stay up that late to watch TV. I was going to bed pretty early, and I don’t know any of the guys. If it had been the guys that I had been in the business with like the Baron Van Raschke’s, Nick Bockwinkle, and Ray Stevens, and those guys were still wrestling, I’d really feel bad that I missed it. The guys that are in now, I don’t know them and it’s a different business then when I was there. I don’t know what direction they come from or are going. No matter what direction they’re going, they’ll be an audience for it, because when you have 200 channels, they need programmers, so they’ll always be someone who likes wrestling. And wrestling is television, it goes up and down the hills and valleys, so if it’s doing great now it’ll come down, if it’s down now it’ll come up. It’s just the way it is with wrestling.

Eric: About a year and half ago, you did an interview and said that was wrestling was in very severe trouble. Do you still feel the same way?

Bobby: Yeah. The fans are not involved anymore. A guy doesn’t do an interview anymore; he does a monologue. I like the old days, when you beat the guy with your finishing maneuver and they know who you were and you get to talk about it. The Crusher in Milwaukee, he’d come out with beer on his back, smoking a cigar, he would say things like ‘I’m going to give him mouth to mouth restitution.’ They knew he was a tough Pollock from Milwaukee; he was the Crusher. Nowadays, guys, they come out, they all have long hair and beards, and they look like the guys in the first seven rows. That’s the truth. They don’t get their characters over. They have to have interviews. Okerlund has to get the guy down there and talk and discuss this and your finishing maneuver. Just to go up there and have all these personal issues, I don’t think the people want to worry about. There are too many things in life that are personal. You have a war going on, people being kidnapped, we have people holding up places, we have terrorists; I don’t think they worry about a guy hitting another guy with a chair.

Eric: Do you think it hurts now that there aren’t squash matches that they had back in the day?

Bobby: Yeah, sure it hurts. It hurts, because the man gets to seldom use his finishing maneuvers, and he never gets down to do an interview, it’s always someone interfering or someone running away, it’s never clean and cut. And people like that, even though they knew by watching that Hulk Hogan was going to beat the Brown Owl, but they want to see him beat and they want to see the finishing maneuver.

Eric: I think back then, going as a kid, I always wondered what would happen if Big John Studd got Hulk Hogan in the backbreaker, for example.

Bobby: There’s another thing. Andre the Giant and John Studd. Boy, did that look great on paper. It didn’t look good in the ring. First of all, Andre is not going to be able to press John Studd over his head to give him big bumps cause Studd couldn’t take them. So now you got two big guys out there butting heads. Thank god they had me, because Andre could throw me around at the end. Sometimes a good match on paper doesn’t always draw you money.

Eric: It’s funny, because it’s such an old proverb, cause so many people forget history in that aspect.

Bobby: I’d rather watch Dean Malenko and Benoit work than anybody.

Eric: You and me both.

Bobby: Eddie Guerrero and what’s his name?

Eric: Rey Mysterio, Jr.?

Bobby: Yeah, and those guys are tremendous. Some of the luchadores don’t know how to sell, but that’s okay, that’s their style, and it’s interesting.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely. Let’s bring up Vince.

Caller Vince: Bobby, of course, I love you, and a 1-hour show isn’t good enough. My question for you is the old time wrestlers that go in the Independent leagues, does it hurt the division of Independent leagues or does it keep on making wrestling good? Second question, in your book, the voice of AWA was in a wheelchair, was he in the wheelchair before he started his wrestling career, and if he did how does that affect people flying around the ring?

Bobby: The gentleman in the wheelchair, his name is Roger Kent, and he did the play by play in Minneapolis for the AWA in the studio there. Roger had a bad foot…he had foot damage. I hadn’t seen Roger in twenty years and now he was in a wheelchair, but when he was doing commentating he wasn’t in a wheelchair then. He had a little trouble getting around; he wasn’t fast, but he could walk. I guess if he were in a wheelchair, the guys would just have to stay away from the table. And what else did he ask?

Eric: He was asking when the old time wrestlers, when their run is over in the WWE, and they really don’t have a lot left as far as bookings, they go to the Independents. What he wanted to know, is do you think it hurts the Independents because the young guys only have some ground when the older guys, you know, you’ve seen them, they come just for a pay check and leave as soon as they’re in there.

Bobby: That’s it. I’ll tell you something, these young guys are never going to make it anyplace and I’ll tell you why. They may have heart and desire, but the promoters that are running it, they don’t care. I’ve done some Independent shows and I’m embarrassed by it. It’s like backyard wrestling. What it is it’s like a bunch of young, fat kids or a bunch of kids that weigh 110 pounds. They wear sweatshirts, they wear tennis shoes, they wear stocking caps, they wear earrings, they wear necklaces, and they go out to the ring and the first thing they do is they jump to the second rope and yell to the people. And they all do the same moves that the guy did in the match before them. They’re not wrestlers; they’re pretending to be. They don’t wear wrestling boots; they don’t wear wrestling trunks; that’s why they don’t do any business. People will not pay to see apartment and backyard wrestling, and that’s what it is. They’re not wrestlers. They’re children. I realize that everybody has to start someplace, but these guys will never make it. Believe me. I went to some guy’s show awhile back, he had a 130-pound guy as an Indian wrestler and he had about three feathers. The guy looked like a hawk hit by a car. This guy is never going to make it in the business and these guys don’t care if they make it; they just want these guys to work for nothing and most of these Independent guys work for nothing. If you have a name on the card, it helps, because some of these guys you don’t know, and you can’t know them, because these guys don’t have TV. There’s no way of advertising your talent. These guys have to hit the gym. They have to get in shape. They look horrible. They’re out of shape. They don’t wear wrestling clothes, they wear street clothes; they look like rappers. People won’t pay to see rappers.

Eric: Bobby, I’m actually ending the show early this week, but can we have you back here in a few weeks?

Bobby: Call me whenever you want.

Eric: Bobby, thank you very much. You’re the best. You’re the greatest. Best of luck with the newest book, Chairshots.

Bobby: You can go on Amazon.com. And I’m sorry for saying the poo-poo word.

Eric: I’ll have to fight a little bit with the brass here, but we’ll get over it.

Bobby: Does your show get good ratings?

Eric: Yeah, absolutely.

Bobby: Then tell him to go stick it up his hat.

Eric: (Laughs) Amen to you. Bobby, thank you and have a great time at the beach.

Bobby: If you see Ole Anderson, forget my name.

Eric: Too bad we don’t have the toilet near you.

Bobby: I don’t care what you say; he was dead wrong in what he did. He’s not a good man.

Eric: Bobby, thank you very much and have a good weekend.

Bobby: Ok, guys remember- A friend in need’s a pest.

Eric: Bobby “The Brain” Heenan, thank you.

Listen to the entire Bobby Heenan Pro Wrestling Radio Interview.

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Eric Gargiulo: Was it hard to put 30 plus years of wrestling stories and experiences in one book?

Bobby Heenan: No, it was very easy. As a matter of fact when my writer and I, Steve Anderson sat down to write it we came up with over 600 pages. What we are doing right now is, we are getting ready to do my second book. We are waiting for just the final confirmation on the deal between my agent and my publisher. Then we are going to do a second book, probably in a couple of weeks we are going to start working on it. It’s just written in the way I like to do it. I don’t want it to be like War And Peace, or the Bible, or anything tough to read. I want it to be like just a bunch of guys sitting around having some wings and a Philly Cheesesteak, and a beer, and just talking wrestling. Just a bunch of people getting together talking about one to the other, they’re not long, some of them amusing. It’s not only wrestling, it’s about my life, tells who I am, where I came from, just all kinds of stories like that. It’s forwarded by Hulk Hogan who probably said the nicest things about me that anyone has ever said in wrestling.

Eric: Was it hard getting Hogan to write the forward due to his contractual obligations?

Bobby: No, we thought he would ask for some money. So, my writer called him and asked him, and he said, “No problem.” So he did it right there. Than I called him later on and thanked him for it and he said he was glad to do it.

Eric: Why weren’t you at the Raw Anniversary Show?

Bobby: That’s funny because Gene Okerlund called me. I saw Gene, I forget when it was but it was months before the show. He asked me, “They got you set to do the anniversary show, will you do it?” I said, “Sure.” I had lunch with Pat Patterson one day and he said, “You’re going to be on the show you know?” I said, “That’s what I hear.” But then I never heard from anyone else. So, if Gene Okerlund or Pat Patterson can pay me or make my airline reservations, or my hotel accommodations, or tell me what I’m going to be compensated for it, and they didn’t have the authority to do that. So, until I hear from someone in authority from Vince McMahon’s office with that authority, I’d make other plans. So, the Saturday before the show they called me and wanted me to come into New York and do it. I said, “I’ve already made other plans.” So, that’s what happened with that. I’d have done it if they gave me more time but you just can’t call me last minute and expect me to be like Clark Kent, jump into a phone booth and take my clothes off and fly out the window. I don’t keep my bag packed waiting for them to call, you know?

Eric G: Your match with Sal Bellomo many years ago from Madison Square Garden seemed to come out of nowhere. How did that come about? Was that something scheduled or was that something last minute?

Bobby: No, that was just the way it was booked by Vince McMahon and George Scott at the time. I also had a single match in the Meadowlands against S.D. Jones. I had no idea why they would do that. Just those two times. Then I worked some six-man tags and stuff down the road with Bundy and Studd, but I don’t know why they booked that match in there. I have no idea why.

Eric G: I comment that at the time, I remember watching it and thought it was an odd match.

Bobby: Yeah, because there was no build up for it, or any reason for it. I just do what I’m told, I don’t cause any problems. I’m not a wrestler, I don’t have too. You wanna see wrestling, go to Iowa. You wanna see wrestling on television, turn the channel on.

Eric G: Take us through 7:00 PM before you are going to broadcast on a WWF pay per view, as compared to 7:00 PM before you go to broadcast on a WCW pay per view?

Bobby: Well, at Vince McMahon’s pay per view you get there at noon. You go in there and have a production meeting. That lasts about two hours. He’ll ask everyone questions about what we think about the program. He will read us all the program, what everyone is going to do, when they are going to through to this, when they are going to have this tape up, how the entrances are going to come, goes through everything. A whole mess of people in the room from merchandise people to television production people, no wrestlers. Just the agents, announcers, and stuff like that. Then, we get out of there about 2, 2:30. Some of you might have to do pre-taped segments, some people might have to do other things. I used to produce the interviews. I’d go to a booth with George Steele. He’d go to a booth, I’d go to another, and then we would bring in the talent, and they’d cut the interviews, and we’d produce and direct them. About 5:00 I would start to get dressed and go back and relax. Let’s say the show starts at 7:00. 6:00 I’m in make up, just getting dusted, get the shine off my face. Then I’d go in and get into my tux, or whatever happens. Then around 6:30 I get with Monsoon and go over anything we want to talk about. He would ask me if there was anything I want to talk about special. I’d say something like, “When we get out there, in the third match ask me about the tree.” “What tree?” “Just ask me about the tree.” That’s just the way we did it, we never had anything written between us. 6:50 they would come and get us, walk Monsoon and I to the announce position, we would put on our headsets, we would test them, we’d talk to the truck, talk to the back, make sure everybody could hear everybody, we had our formats. 7:00 the bell would ring, we’d do the program, 10:00 it was over, Monsoon and I would walk back, shake hands, thank each other, Vince would be there, he’d thank us, the agents and everyone else would say, “Great show.” Everybody would compliment everybody, I’d go take a shower, go have some beer, go to bed. WCW, you get there at 1:00 for a production meeting, someone would read you the matches, and that was it. You’d be done in 20 minutes. Then you’d have all day to spend in the building, there was nothing to do. So, you go to catering, you sit there and have some horrible, horrible food. I’m telling you, Charles Manson killed seven people and he’s eating better than us. I’m not kidding you. That food would have kept people’s dogs from begging at the table. All you had to do was feed it to them. Not much you can do with cream of Spam and a Tab. Around 5 or 6:00 I would find Mike Tenay and Tony (Schivonne). Tony was hard to find, he didn’t like to meet with us or anybody else. Then, Mike and I would talk about what we wanted to do, I’d put my tux on, go to make up. Everybody in there (make up) looked like Mount Rushmore. They couldn’t put their own make up, they weren’t going to put it on me. Nobody had any formats yet. “They’re still working on them. They have some changes to make.” 6:50 would come, we’d walk to our announce position and we had no formats. We didn’t know what was coming on first. The bell would ring at 7:00, they would move us around. “No, you sit on this side. We got your name underneath you for the television.” They had us in the wrong chairs. They had a Production Assistant. This woman that looked like, well I don’t even know how to describe her. She would always spill water on you or knock over something. Like Mr. Magoo. Whoever came out first, we’d talk about them, we didn’t know who was coming out, we didn’t know how they changed things. Then about the second match, the end of the first, or sometimes the top of the third if it was Monday Nitro, she’d come out with the papers and give them to you. Maybe 7 sheets. Now, if you had 7 loose pieces of paper where would you put the staple? She put it in the lower right hand corner. What are we from Tibet? Who reads like that? There is only one corner to put it in. You turn it from right to left. That’s the thing. Sometimes they didn’t have pens for us. Then we’d come back, there would be nobody to say, “Great show, you did great, how are you.” They’d walk right by you, like city of the living dead. That was the average pay per view. Then I’d go back and instead of relaxing and drinking a beer like I would do after WWF, I went back to the room, tried to put my belt over the shower rod so I could hang myself. I’m not kidding you. Only two reasons I was there. One, my daughter was going to the University of Alabama, and another was they had insurance. I never had insurance, I broke my neck in 1983 in Japan, and I didn’t have it operated on until 1995 because I had no insurance. There’s no benefits, no paid vacations, no profit sharing, there’s nothing. Vince sent us every quarter the statements from merchandise. I’d make some money off some stuff I had out there. In WCW if you had merchandise you got paid, but nobody ever really knew the numbers. Just like Wrestlemania 3, 93,000 people, it could have been 98,000 people or 87. We don’t know. Unless you sell every ticket or sign the check, you’ll never know how they pay you. So, that’s the difference between WCW and WWF. And, what was the announcer’s name with me and Tenay? Can you say it again?

Eric G: Tony Schivonne

Bobby: (flushes a toilet)

Eric G: You tell a great story in your book about running into Tony on New Year’s Eve after WCW closed.

Bobby: Yeah, he was sitting across the bar from me, he and his wife, and I stared at him, and he tried to make like he didn’t see me. I stared at him. So, he kind of looked away and I still stared at him, so he and his wife finally left. Tenay said, “Why were you staring at him?” I said, “If I can’t trust somebody I have to watch them.”

Eric G: Were you confused when you were told you were replaced on Nitro by Mark Madden because he had more of an MTV look?

Bobby: I understand Willie Nelson has hired Mark Madden to hang around with him so he won’t look bad. It’s not Madden’s fault he looks that way, he chooses to look like that. He dresses like an unmade bed, he’s overweight, annoying and rude to some people, I guess. He’s always been nice to me, I am just saying my first impression. See, they (WCW) didn’t understand the Bobby Heenan character. They wanted me to be an announcer and that’s it. They wanted me to be serious when a guy was hurt or something. That’s not Bobby Heenan. Bobby Heenan is a guy that works for a used car lot. Not a Ford dealership, he works for Lucky Larry’s Auto. Bobby Heenan is the kind of guy that would help an old woman across the street and than go through her purse. I wouldn’t care if a guy was hurt, would I? WCW wanted me to be Pat Summerall or John Madden. So, I through my hands up and said, “Forget it.” I was going to keep my insurance, I was making a good chunk of money for the year, and I just rode with it. How would they know if I was good? They didn’t know what was bad.

Eric G: I bring up his call of the 1992 Royal Rumble and comment that his announcing puts that match over as one of the all time classics.

Bobby: Everyone has always complimented me on that match. Ric Flair came out second, do you remember? I told Vince to have him come out first. Nobody has ever come out first and lasted an entire Rumble. But, he had to change it and make him come out second. I really enjoyed doing that match, I really got into it. Sometimes you can’t get into it, you take a match where some guys do the same thing all the time. Sometimes you do repeat yourself, you say the same lines, because you can’t come up with anything new, because they do not do anything new. This time it was different. I felt the excitement building in me and I tried to build it to the end, to the end, to the end, and Monsoon just looked at me and winked, and let me go with it. It was the most fun I had broadcast. The other thing about my gimmick was, I wasn’t a great announcer, I wasn’t a broadcast journalist, I was just a guy that could talk, and I had a gimmick of, “The Brain.” So, no if I screwed up it didn’t matter, because people expected me too. I didn’t have to be high powered like Bob Costas, I could be a buffoon, and people expected that of me. Like Jesse Ventura told me once, “You out to get Monsoon some time. He always gets you.” I said, “No Jesse, people don’t want to see me get Monsoon. They want to see him get me.” So that was the beauty of what I did. I was , “The Brain” and anything that I screwed up, people could enjoy it, it was entertaining, and I didn’t have to prepare for anything.

Eric G: I heard a story once about Andre The Giant almost pulling out Jake Roberts’ hair?

Bobby: He would stand on his hair and than pick him up. He would be lying on his back, Jake had long hair, so Andre would just bend down and try and pick him up. He’d leave strands of hair on the mat.

Eric G: You made some brilliant remarks about Bruiser Brody in your book, that you rarely hear from other people. Not to speak ill of the dead, but could you expand on those?

Bobby: Wrestling, you cannot kill wrestling you can only bruise it. But, Eric Bischoff did kill wrestling at WCW. First of all, and I will get back to Bruiser Brody. If Eric Bischoff was such a great producer why would he have put the tag team belt on Bagwell’s mother? Why would he have put the world belt on David Arquette? Why would they make the Nitro Girls into wrestlers? Why would you beat Goldberg? Nothing they did made sense, so they did kill it. Now, we were talking about Brody. He never killed a territory, but if he had a bug up his butt and didn’t want to do something, he wouldn’t show up. What about the guy that lives in that town, and works there, and is a wrestler? He may be making $50 a night, and if the house comes up when Brody is there, maybe he makes $75? The guy is looking forward to that. So, Brody leaves, doesn’t come back, the next time that guy comes to work he may get $35. When you are the top guy, you owe some responsibility to the fans, and the guys underneath. Nobody can see you win unless somebody puts you over. I didn’t like him, I didn’t respect him, I was always worried that he would snap, he just wasn’t fun to be around. You ask me a question, and I’m not going to lie to you. I have lied all my life on television, now it’s time not too. The only real thing about wrestling is my book (laughs).

Eric G: Explain the theory of wrestling like a manager and managing like a wrestler?

Bobby: First of all when I started managing in 1965, a manager was either a young kid who was too skinny and couldn’t wrestle, or just starting out. They wanted him to talk for a guy that just couldn’t talk, or be there at the end to take bumps and save the match. Or a guy that was too old to wrestle anymore, but still had the gift of gab like a Blassie. A lot of people think Blassie was a manager for all of those years, I was the only manager in the history of this business that managed as long as I did. From 1965-1991, and wrestled. Blassie didn’t start managing until the late 70′s, when he was done wrestling. Same with Albano, same with a lot of the guys. I was managing longest than anybody. The reason I changed things was, I didn’t want to wear a tuxedo, and I didn’t want to carry a cane. That means one hand isn’t free, somebody is going to nail me. Or, I can’t take bumps because I have a cane in my hand. And, if somebody gets the cane, they will kill me. You don’t want to wear a tuxedo, because I take bumps every night. Where am I going to get a tuxedo cleaned everyday? Where am I going to clean a white shirt with blood all over it? Forget that. Sunglasses? I want to see everybody in that building when I am coming out to the ring. I’ve been shot at, I’ve been cut, I’ve had acid thrown on me. I had five people shot in Chicago one night in a match with Bockwinkel, Verne Gagne, and I. So, I’m aware of the people out there and what could happen. So, I just started wearing different kinds of warm up suits, I had my wife sew sequins on them and everything, and I changed to look like a manager. I bleached my hair. Then I decided I was going to manage like a wrestler and wrestle like a manager. What does that mean? When I’m outside the ring managing, when my man is hit, I’m going to register too. I’m going to act as if I have an investment in this man. I’m not going to sit there, with a cane, and sunglasses, and give the people the finger and yell at them. No, I am going to concentrate on my man in that ring. When the end comes and they bring me to that ring, I’m gonna take bumps comparable to anyone in the business. I’m gonna take bumps like a wrestler. Now, when I wrestle I am going to get in there like a coward. I’m going to back off, and run, and be scared to death. I wrestle like a manager and manage like a wrestler. That is what that means.

Eric G: Who was a guy that you saw that had a ton of potential, but never realized it.

Bobby: There are a lot of good guys that just because of their size did not make it. When you were wrestling Hogan in those days, Vince wanted the Studds, the Andres, the Bundys, the big guys. When Hulk beat them, it made Hulk even stronger. Curt Hennig, Mr. Perfect had enormous potential. Just mechanical in the ring, Dustin Rhodes is a great performer. Barry Windham. There is another story right there. There are guys I named right there that could go out there and have a match with a worm, and tear the house down. Than you get a guy like John Studd, who was a real nice man, a real gentleman, I loved him. But, he couldn’t do anything in the ring. He was too big and clumsy. So, when he wrestled Andre, that looked good on paper. But, when you bought your ticket, you wanted to see Andre do giant things to him. You wanted to see Andre pick him up, press him, slam him, backdrop him, suplex him, Studd couldn’t do them. Difference there is that Studd made more money than all of those guys. But, he couldn’t do the job they did. It’s all part of acting, did they fit the part? It’s like Mickey Rooney is a great actor, but he wouldn’t look good in Gone With The Wind. It’s all about the part you play.

Caller (Steve): Can you comment on why you think Tully Blanchard, Arn Anderson, and Ken Patera were not more successful as belt holders?

Bobby: Because whoever made that decision, whether it was Vince McMahon in the WWF or if it was in the days of WCW, Eric Bischoff, or the Crocketts. In the days of the NWA, that was voted on by a committee. The champion would have to put up a $25,000 deposit on the belt, so if he didn’t wanna do a job one night and get beat, or didn’t wanna do what they said, and ran off with the belt one night, they kept the 25 grand. Then when he’d drop the belt, he would get his 25 grand back and interest on the bond. In WWF, if you ran off with the belt Vince would make another one. It didn’t matter. Vince made all of the decisions, it wasn’t us.

Caller (Steve): I think Tully Blanchard was a better wrestler than Ric Flair. Was that just my imagination? Comments on Ken Patera?

Bobby: I don’t think so, I really don’t. Ric Flair is like Liberace or Cher. He is never going to let you down with a performance. Ric Flair is one of the best. Ken was Ken, he was fun.

Caller (Vince): Comments on Jim Duggan?

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Bobby: I was just with Duggan last Sunday night. I was in South Bend, IN. They had an independent show there, and I went to see some of my friends. By the way, the Mayor of Indianapolis made the day, Bobby Heenan Day, the 20th of July. Second time in Indianapolis, two different mayors. Duggan is a cancer survivor too, and he looked great. He still looks the same. He still had one eye watching me and the other watching a fly.

Caller (Vince): Comments on Hillbilly Jim?

Bobby: Jim is a good guy, you know when I was sick, sometimes you can judge who your friend is and who is not. Jim called me, must have been three or four times when I was sick. He told a lot of guys. Even Kamala sent me an email, Slick called me on the phone, Verne Gagne came to my house. Angelo Mosca drove down twice from Canada to see me. You drive 1600 miles one way with your wife in the car, you must really want to see somebody. And Vince McMahon has never called me. There is no heat there, at least I don’t think. I’m 58 and I don’t fit anything he’s doing because he wants a younger, more MTV look I guess, they’re doing things a little differently than I did, I couldn’t do a three hour show probably broadcasting. Some words don’t come out that clear anymore. I could be like a Good Will Ambassador. I could meet and greet people. I wouldn’t even have to be on the air. I don’t even care if I ever work again really, but I would have thought that he would have called me.

Caller (Chris): What are your thoughts on the new trend of high flyers today, like Jeff Hardy?

Bobby: I think they are ridiculous. I will tell you why, because it doesn’t mean anything anymore. They are flying around the ring and they are going to hurt themselves. Like I said in the first half hour, there is no insurance. Vince may take care of you for a little bit, but if you break your back, he is not going to take care of you for the rest of your life. You wanna be a wrestler, be a wrestler. It’s a dream, it’s something inside of you, it’s something you couldn’t have talked me out of doing. But my God, to throw a guy through five or six tables, for a guy to come off the top of a cage to the floor, they are all very spectacular moves, but once you do it, it’s over. Now there is going to be a guy that wants to come off the ceiling next time, he is going to want to come up through the floor, who knows what they are going to want to do. Plus, they take all of these horrendous bumps and nobody sells them! They don’t mean nothing. They aren’t doing high spots anymore, they are doing routines like the Rockettes. They are just going to get hurt, and if you watch a match on some of these independent shows I have been looking at, some of the guys are great, but they all do the same thing. Nobody watches what the other guy did before him. I guess it don’t mean anything anymore, but the high flyers today. Believe me, the promotion don’t care about you. You are done and gone, when they want to get you done and gone. That is just the way it is. Those guys are taking all kinds of goofy bumps, and the promoters will use you as long as you take those goofy bumps, because that makes their shows spectacular, but when you are hurt, you are hurt, and it’s over.

Eric G: I comment on his over the top rope high spot he used to do, and how the fans would eat it up. Less was more in that aspect.

Bobby: You’re right, they only want to see a few things out of a heel. All a heel has to do is be sneaky and a coward, and take bumps. That’s it. You don’t have to do anything else. You don’t have to be strong to be in our business, you have to look strong. You don’t have to be tough, you have to sound tough. You have to be humble, if you are a babyface you have to make the people cry. You don’t have to go through tables. You can get more heat out of the match if the referee is not looking and you pull the guy’s hair, and the referee asks you, and you say, “No.” Than the people are going to get involved. Make them part of the show. Entertain them. But than if you pull the hair right in front of the ref, all the heat’s going on the referee, and nobody bought a ticket to see Earl Hebner. That’s the truth. You get more heat when you sneak. I snuck out of the house four times last year, boy did I get heat.

Caller (Chris): Comment on Sabu?

Bobby: I know him, but his body is all scarred up from taking all of those goofy bumps. He just looks like the kind of guy that wouldn’t mind stepping out in front of a train. Some people just like that. Some people like to really hurt themselves. I don’t know, I don’t want to get hurt by anybody.

Caller (Chris): I brought up the high spots because a lot of today’s kids want to be the next Rob Van Dam or Sabu.

Bobby: Yeah, but how much money are Rob Van Dam and Sabu making? Where is Rob Van Dam on the cards? You don’t see Goldberg going through those tables, or Austin, or the Rock.

Caller (Chris): I wish you well, I just got out of the hospital myself so I know how you feel.

Bobby: There’s nothing like a hot bed pan. Rather than go back to work with Tony Schivonne or go back to work for WCW, I’d rather kiss a hospital mop.

Eric G: When you, and the new managers started in the WWF, was there any pressure from the older guys to do less out at ringside?

Bobby: No, Jimmy Hart was there after me. See, you have to understand something. Everybody had a different style. Albano’s was to run around with his shirt ripped open, and rubber bands on his face. And people wanted to see him do that. And Freddy, the reason he didn’t run around or anything was because HE WAS 97 YEARS OLD! Freddie wasn’t going to take bumps, Freddie was in his 60′s or 70′s. His days were over. When Freddie worked, he drew money he never took bumps, he would just bite you. If you wanted Freddie off of his feet you had to call Triple A. Freddie never gave me advice on managing or anything like that.

Caller (Bill): You had a lot a little confrontation with Brian Pillman, did you have any ramifications with the big shots at WCW for dropping the F bomb?

Bobby: No, they weren’t even watching. They didn’t even know it. When you are doing color commentary, you never look in the ring. Because you have to watch your monitor, because you can only talk about what the cameras are shooting. So, if I saw a guy in the ring and he was going in his trunks to get something, and I was telling Monsoon about it, or Mike Tenay, and it was not on television, it would not make sense. So, I could only watch that monitor. You understand? So, Pillman was outside the ring fighting and someone else was outside the ring fighting, and they (cameras) were shooting the other two. Pillman came up behind me for a joke and pulled my coat down over my shoulders. I had neck surgery, I had broken my neck. Everybody knew not to touch me. So, when that happened I thought a fan had jumped over the rail. That’s when I said, “What the F!” It was Pillman. I went back and told Eric Bischoff, I told someone else, and David Crockett. I said, “I just said the F word on tv.” Bischoff said, “Why?” They didn’t even know. I could have talked out there like Andrew Dice Clay and they would not have known it.

Caller (Bill): I think the WWF could have done a better job with your exit?

Bobby: Well, that was decided at the production meeting that afternoon. Vince asked me how I wanted to go. I said, “However you want.” He said, “What do you think?” I said, “Have Monsoon throw me out the door. Since you didn’t think of anything in advance.” Funny thing was, when he threw me out the door, I walked around to the side of that bus, Monsoon was waiting in a car. I got in the car, Monsoon and I went back to the hotel, and we didn’t say anything to each other. We got in the elevator, we got up to our floor, I got off, I shook his hand and I said, “Goodbye.” He said, “Goodbye.” I walked to my room, I get to my room, and somebody had sent me a fruit basket. So I called him in his room and said, “Hey you big ape, you want a banana?” He said, “Yeah I’ll have a banana.” I said, “Ok, I’ll bring it down to you.” So I walked back, down to his door, he was waiting in the hall, we hugged and cried for a half of an hour. That was my last night at the WWF.

Caller (Ron): Who gave you the nick name Weasel?

Bobby: The Crusher, he used to always sing. He had a gimmick as a Polish beer drinking guy from Milwaukee. He’d have a cigar in his mouth and he’d say, “When I chase the weasel around the post, pop goes the weasel!” He’d sing it like that, like a polka, and that went over the people.

Caller (Ron): Memories of your Weasel Suit matches against the Ultimate Warrior?

Bobby: The Ultimate Warrior was not one of my favorite people. I would do anything, just about for money. I’m a paid actor and what they want me to do, I’ll do. If I don’t wanna do it, I’ll quit and go work somewhere else. No, I didn’t enjoy working with the Ultimate Warrior because he didn’t protect you, he didn’t protect your body. It would take a lot for me to ever do that again.

Eric G: Thoughts on Dynamite Kid?

Bobby: The Dynamite Kid and I were buddies. I loved him. I was in Montreal one night and he took all the clothes out of everyone’s bags. He was funny, I liked him.

Eric G: Thoughts on the Valiants?

Bobby: The Valiants, they were liars, they were not great workers, I didn’t enjoy being around them. They’d always con someone for a ride or something, they never paid their way. They were flimflam men. Guys like that, that always duck and dodge, they don’t wanna pay for a room, they wanna sleep in your room, use your car, mooch off something. Any guy I have ever seen do that, did it to save money, and when they were done in the business every one of those guys had nothing. It’s the truth. We were in Indianapolis one night eating at a restaurant that a friend of mine owned, and the Valiants said, “We’ll take you to dinner. You’re always giving us rides.” I never charged them. We’re done with dinner, and I couldn’t find the Valiants. So I figured they went back to the motel. I went back to the motel and they went out the back door, one climbed out the window I think. They stiffed the guy on the bill. I went back and had to pay the bill. I had to give the girl a $50 tip just to save face. Stuff like that they would do. That’s just the way they are, they are not my kind of people.

Eric G: I thank Bobby for doing the show and tell him what a treat it has been.

Bobby: Well thank you, you know I was thinking of starting a managers school, think it would work? I’m down here in Florida, so I am not sure when I am going to put it together, or if it is even feasible to do something like that. I am looking into it more with Steve Keirn, you know who used to be Skinner. He’s got a ring down here and a gym, and I was thinking of doing a little fantasy camp for three or four days down here, just have some fun, show some people what to do, and what not to do, but I don’t know if there is any market for that or not. I’m going to throw it out there and take a look at maybe doing something like that next summer. Anytime you need a guest, just give me a call and remember. A friend in need is a pest.

Listen to the entire Bobby Heenan Pro Wrestling Radio interview.

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Eric: Truth about the rumored WCW negotiations:

Shane: Well they stand about the same place as the negotiations with the World Wrestling Federation. They’re negotiations going on. To be quite honest with you the WWF negotiations have so far been more fruitful. Both companies, let’s face it. With Vince McMahon rehashing his angle with Steve Austin it’s clear. That they need a heel there pretty desperately and with World Championship Wrestling let’s face it, they need ratings. So both companies have come to the table. But to be quite honest with you so far the deal from the World Wrestling Federation seems to be paying more dividends. When I say negotiations it’s probably a misnomer with World Championship Wrestling. They’re have been phone calls made to ask if they’re would be interest in doing business. So there’s not even been a number put on the table from them.

Eric: Ric Flair has said “if Shane Douglas came to WCW, I would refuse to work any angles or matches with him.” What is your opinion on that statement?

Shane: Well I would too if I were him. He’s known I’ve had some personal problems for quite a while. This is his opportunity to avenge himself. To put his name back on the line and clear up the one big glitch that’s been on his career. The overlooking of Shane Douglas. Now, he can step into the ring and give it his best shot and try to shut my mouth up or he can take the low road so to speak which is what it looks like he’s gonna do now. I’ll say this, like I said in my statement before when he publicly mentioned me a couple months ago. This little quarterback who couldn’t make it, using his words is still damn good enough to make like look good and is still good enough to draw ratings for WCW, so he can take whatever approach he wants, but if there’s one last major run left in his career it’s with Shane Douglas.

Eric: Does the thought of re-forming the Triple Threat invite you more to go over to WCW, than the WWF?

Shane: Well, the Triple Threat is gonna be part of me no matter where I go. I own the Triple Threat, I won the Franchise, I own Shane Douglas, I own all appropriate logos and likeness. So wherever I go, they’ll go with me. The prospect of that is really attractive in doing it and doing it in a big way. I think that Paul Heyman dropped the ball on that. He never knew how to quite package this thing. We were his Four Horsemen, we were his NWO, and he didn’t know what to do with it. Vince or Bischoff will know what to do with it.

Eric: Is this just an angle with you and ECW? (Shane and ECW were at odds publicly)

Shane: Well I can tell you this. I had a six-year career with Extreme Championship Wrestling that helped solidify me as a main talent in this business. I’m very thankful to Paul Heyman and the ECW fans, especially for that because they are some of the best fans in the world and I owe a lot to them because of that. With no doing on my side of it, my tenure with ECW has come to an end. That was made evident with Paul Heyman, when he never sent me a plane ticket to come to the last pay per view. I had every intention of stepping into the ring with Justin Credible and I had every intention of showing Justin Credible who the real Franchise in this business is. But, without a plane ticket to get there I sure as heck wasn’t going to. I’m in good shape, but not that good a shape to jog from Pittsburgh to Poughkeepsie, at least with a bag on my shoulder so. No, without a plane ticket I wasn’t gonna show.

Eric: Were you surprised that it came to that?

Shane: Absolutely. Absolutely Eric, because I’ve been friends with Paul Heyman for thirteen years, or at least I thought I was. We’ve been friends in my mind for seven years longer than ECW has been in history, it’s been in existence. So, yeah I thought that you know, some public statements that Paul Heyman has made about me um before this and some private things. Paul Heyman always told me “Shane, you have a job for life with ECW. You have nothing to worry about, you and your family will be well taken care of from Extreme Championship Wrestling for all you’ve done for us.” And we’ve pretty much have seen now what Paul Heyman’s word is worth. You know what though? Publicly, thank you Paul Heyman. Because you’ve made me a rich man. Thank you.

Eric: How is your physical state and are you a considering retirement?

Shane: Shane Douglas is in the best shape of his life. Shane Douglas back in January came very close to that. That was not an angle, I don’t think the fans realized how legitimately close I was to retirement. Right now, I’m in the best shape that I’ve been in, in quite a while. I just had a complete physical from two days ago from a doctor friend of mine. We grew up together and he’s given me a head to toe physical, not just the joints, but looking at the heart, and looking at the lungs, and looking at the spine, and every single little thing that he could look at. I am in peak physical condition, so whoever gets the Franchise, whichever side wins the free agency war is gonna get a guy with a fire lit under his rear, because I wanna prove Paul Heyman wrong and I wanna prove the critics wrong. I’m ready to get back to work and I’m ready to show people whether it’s in WCW or in WWF, that the Franchise is still the Franchise of this sport.

Eric: Looking back on it, were all the sacrifices you made to ECW worth it?

Shane: Absolutely. Paul Heyman aside, they’re a few people in this business Eric that can count themselves lucky enough to have a mile stone in this business. I mean may people have done it in many a different ways. I’ve made my legacy and established my milestone by the fact that I took a company, Eastern Championship Wrestling. That was an unknown entity. To be quite honest with you, before I worked for them I never heard of them. I took them on my back, I’m not saying this solely. We had a great crew of guys, and we had a good booker, and we had great fans. But the Franchise name was a shoot. They had to build a company around somebody. They built it around me. You win Superbowls at football games by handing the ball to throwing the ball to the guy most likely to score a touchdown for you. I consistently scored touchdowns for ECW and was very instrumental in making the company what it is today. No, I think it was all worth it. Again, because of all my friends that worked there and all the fans that bought the product, I wish ECW a long successful tenure, but Mr. Heyman will get what’s due him.

Eric: How real is a deal between ECW and TNN?

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Shane: Well from my understanding in talking to Joey Styles that TNN has started selling commercials, ad rates and time for the slot with ECW. So I’m sure it’s a definite deal. The question is, we were told back when we went to pay per view. “This is it guys, this is gonna make us rich, we’re set.” This was the pinnacle for ECW and since then the company has been in financial turmoil. So you know, I’m not so certain that this is the saving grace for ECW but it’s certainly gonna be a shot in the arm for them. Like I said earlier, for my friends that work there and for the fans that respect the product and love the product I wish them all the best of luck on TNN. In fact, I have gone as far as to if Troy Martin can be of any assistance, which is my real name. If I could be of any assistance in providing ECW help, in obtaining the TNN deal and solidifying the deal, that I was available for that. Paul Heyman never called and I know that Shane Douglas was part of the equation. Because TNN had called me privately through a company called Buddy Lee Productions that they do a lot of business with in Nashville, to ask if I was still with the company and if I wasn’t with the company why? Because they’re feeling was that they were gonna sign a company that would be void of talent. They had heard rumors that Rob Van Dam had signed with WCW. They had rumors that Shane Douglas and Sabu had left over money squabbles. They had heard that Taz was negotiating with other companies. They had heard the Dudleys were leaving. So their fear was, without Shane Douglas that I was like a domino. The lynch pin if you will. That if I left, than a bunch of talent was gonna leave and they were concerned about that. I went on record in telling TNN I was on hiatus from ECW and not gone. So in my own way I helped ECW secure that deal. Hopefully.

Eric: Do you regret kicking Scott Hall out of the building in Florida?

Shane: I regret, I’ll cut you off right there. Do I regret anything I’ve done or said in the past? Absolutely not. What makes Shane Douglas the Franchise is the fact he’s a man that says what he thinks and he stands by what he says. The things I’ve said about Ric Flair. He’s old, he’s over the hill, he aint what he used to be. I stand by and I’m eager to get in the ring and shoot with him and show to the world what I’ve talked about. I tried to get him to come to my playground for six years and it didn’t work, so I’ll got to his if I have to. As far as what was said to Scott Hall in Kissemmee, was basically you can defend your position as a man or leave the building and he left the building. Absolutely I stand by that. Now publicly and I’ve said this before. I wish Scott Hall all the best in taking care of his personal demons. I don’t wish that on anybody, friend or foe. But as a man that tried to screw me when I was in the World Wrestling Federation, he didn’t try he did a pretty good job. Absolutely and in hindsight would I do it again? I guess the question again. Another way to ask it is. If that were to happen today would you confront him again? Absolutely.

Eric: Memories of Owen Hart?

Shane: Well first of aside form the wrestling business because sometimes we get caught up in this little game that we call wrestling. He was a true gentleman. He was a great, great man. I mean he was a man of his word, he was a straight up guy. People always talk about Owen as a ribber, a practical joker. His practical jokes were harmless. He never defecated in anybody’s bag or anything like that. His deal was to put a padlock on your shoes when you were running late to catch a plane or something like that. Things like that, that were more a pain in the rear end than anything else. Wrestling has truly lost one of it’s ambassadors. He was a great guy, he was a great friend and I’ve never seen at the funeral, so much sorrow in one room. I mean, there were a thousand, two thousand fans outside of the funeral home. The family and all the wrestlers, I’ve never seen so many grown men cry in my life. I’ll say this about the Hart family. They are an amazing family, absolutely the most courageous people I’ve ever seen. His mother, Helen Hart just exhibited a backbone, a character, and a strength that I don’t think I have and I hope that I never have to find out that I do. She was an extraordinary woman as is his widow, Martha. The family was just extraordinary. The sad thing about it is. As I was saying with Scott Hall’s problems I wouldn’t wish on what happened to Owen to anybody, I mean on the worst person on the planet. The last person I’d expect it to happen to was Owen. There were other people that if you told me that it happened to I wouldn’t be surprised. It woulda still bothered me greatly, it probably wouldn’t have shocked me because a lot of people in this business have taken crazy. I mean how many wrestlers have we lost? We’ve lost a lot of wrestlers to drugs. We’ve lost a lot of wrestlers to car accidents. That wouldn’t surprise me. But this was just totally senseless.

Eric: How will his passing and the way it happened effect wrestling and the WWF?

Shane: Well two fold. As far as for an individual company I can’t say. I hope, first of all that the wrestling fans understand that what we’re doing is dangerous. Not just the stunts, but the in ring stuff. I’m seeing these kids do this backyard wrestling and guys, if you’re listening out there. Please be careful in what you do. I’ve been trained in 18 years in what I do. I’m very capable in the ring because of that time that I’ve spent learning. God oh mighty, I don’t want one of those kids out there to end up with a broken neck or something. Some of the stuff they are doing out there is dangerous. I saw on 20/20 a kid jump off a roof with his knees first hit another kid in the rib. That’s just dangerous. Please be very careful of what you’re doing out there. But I hope the fans see that whet we’re doing is dangerous and they take into account that when they’re cheering, like when Cactus or Mankind got thrown off the top of the cage in Pittsburgh. The crowd was smiling and it was almost smoke and mirrors. A man could have been literally crippled. I hope that the fans realize this and they’re thirst for blood. Unfortunately and I’m sad to say that ECW was responsible for publicizing it in the first place. I hope that their thirst for blood doesn’t lead to another incident.

Eric: What did you learn by promoting ECW’s Pittsburgh shows.

Shane: I learned trial by fire. I’m real proud of what my CO-promoter Marc Keenan and I did in November of 97′ and we still hold the attendance record for ECW at a time, and if you put this in perspective Eric. At the time that we established that record of nearly 5,000 people, the company was half as big as it is right now. So, I mean it would be like drawing 10,000 today. ECW’s houses, from what I understand are dropping right now. I understand they had four or five hundred people in Boston, you remember? We used to do a lot more than that. But what I learned was that it aint easy to fill those seats. Somebody that promotes well, the fans and the wrestlers ought to take their hats off to them. Because I know what it took to put 5,000 people in that building. It was two and a half months of absolute pure hell. I would go through it again in a heartbeat for the success of the company. I did learn a lot about it. I want to comment on Pittsburgh. That’s a huge loss to ECW because, Pittsburgh was the most lucrative town in ECW’s whole landscape. It was by far the most money generating town for the most merchandise. We routinely did 3,000 people there. Every place else we’re going, we’re getting 1,100, 600. Losing Pittsbugh is not just a simple loss like “we’ll get another town that will fulfill Pittsburgh’s role.” Pittsburgh was huge, to the tune of half a million dollars a year in revenue for ECW. Again, if there is anything I can do to help ECW with those towns afterwards.

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Tom Zenk: Happy New Year Eric and thanks for having me back. At least you’ve got guts, you’re controversial, and you’re a loose cannon just like my partner Pillman was – that’s why I like you.

Eric - Are you surprised at the response you have gotten in the last few months over your interviews?

Tom - It’s not about the publicity, it’s all a work right? What do I know?

Eric - What are your thoughts on a recent statement [by Bob Ryder] that accused you of not being qualified to make the recent opinions you’ve made about WCW and their potential sale?

Tom - Who? Bob? Bob who? Bob Ryder? He’s a nobody right?

Well, I guess we could go down the Bob Barnett path – I think Barnett called Ryder, “‘A disgusting human being, a piece of garbage.” But, that really doesn’t seem fair does it Eric? I’ve never met the guy. I’d prefer to take the high road and take Goldberg’s line and NOT say Ryder is just ‘a fat, bald, goofy looking shill for Eric and DDP’. In fact, I’d like to take my direction from Sting and Buff Bagwell – all ‘born agains’ right? I want to FORGIVE Bob Ryder because, Bob Ryder doesn’t know me, and he certainly doesn’t know anything about my time in WCW. Where was Bob in those days? I heard he came in with Bischoff in 1997. They met on the Net and I know Bob is doing a great job as a stooge for DDP and Eric, and he’s got a right to collect a paycheck just like anyone.

Page got ten security guys to back him up before he picked a fight with Steiner … DDP you’re a woman.

Look at all the good work Ryder does – like last week, he was putting out fires for DDP, acting as a peacemaker for Page and Steiner. Page was fighting with Steiner and Steiner was getting over the top with all the publicity and making DDP look like the girl that he is. Page, oh gosh, he got ten security guys to back him up before he picked a fight with Steiner. And it took a full minute to get Scotty Steiner off him – even with ten security guards. My advice to Page is to jump off a building, go kill yourself, rather than fight with Scotty Steiner. He beat you up in a minute. You had ten guys and they couldn’t pull him off. Maybe have Kimberly fight your fights, DDP because you’re a woman. One good thing is that WCW got a good angle. They got a shoot match with Steiner and Page. Winner takes Kimberly, right? I’d buy the pay per view.

My guess is that Bob tried to trash me because I have been raising issues about the WCW sale to Bischoff. What do you think that the Securities Exchange Commission would find if they looked into that? A fire sale to the arsonist. Bob, I never met you and you have a right to your opinion just as I do ….. But Bob, answer the questions!! I asked 5 questions in my LAW interview. People … want you to answer those 5 simple questions.

I saw you gave Curt Hennig an interview?

Eric - I  did.

Tom - He was pretty cool. I was a geek in high school, a big time geek. He gave me the answers to tests in class and if guys would pick on me, he’d say “Shut up, Zenk’s all right.” He just took a liking to me because I was always a nice guy. That’s what the wrestlers would tell you, if you got them one-on-one, was that I was a nice guy. I always treated them nice. You could always be a jerk, but I treated them nice. Curt said I’ve got big ones right? Yeah, well write this down Eric. Five questions and you could really blow this WCW deal apart. Let’s start the new year off with a bang! I cannot believe that the mainstream wrestling journalists are watching the WCW sale go through without raising any questions. They’re already accepting Bischoff’s deal as a done deal. These are the questions that Ryder didn’t answer. And the questions that wrestling journalists should be asking Time Warner and TBS

Is it OK to sell WCW at a depressed price to the guy that made WCW unprofitable in the first place?

Is there a conflict of interests in Bischoff being paid as an employee to negotiate the sale of a company to himself?

Just imagine if you had stock in the Time Warner, right?

You learn in your life to do the right thing? I’m no hypocrite – I did the wrong thing plenty of times -but I TRY to do the right thing. Especially for Ted Turner. (Johnny Ace and myself were invited to Turner’s Christmas party in 1990 to put a good spin on wrestling). I’m truly loyal to Ted Turner.

What about due diligence? Is TBS applying due diligence to the sale?

I mean, come on! Has anyone done a cost-benefit analysis of the implications of the AOL-Time Warner merger for its wrestling product? I mean, real money could be made selling wrestling product across all AOL-Time Warner media outlets. You could download wrestling, you could watch wrestling on demand via the net, etc. Vince would kill for all of their outlets world wide. Is Siegel that naive? …. I can’t believe Time Warner could be so stupid to give all this away to Bischoff for pennies.

Two crickets in a ring could draw …

Eric - Are you surprised that the sale of WCW has really only come down to two companies?

Tom - Well I’m not surprised that Vince didn’t want to buy it. I’ll bet you money Vince just wanted to get a look at their books. He wanted to get a look at their books and see how to manipulate the guys…….

I think that the Turner people are frustrated because they know they’ve been conned. I mean carnies, cons, and it took them 10 years to see through that?….. In the South it’s called the “watermelon con.” Dusty, you know he is just clever. The “Tennessee handshake,” the right hand out and the left hand with a shiv in the back stabbing you. That’s what they’ve got going on. (In Dusty’s voice) “Hey, Z baby, what you got going on?”

Eric - I tell a story about a recent Interview with the Hokytonk Man, where Honky said Dusty had promised that he would take a ton of guys to Turner with him and never returned anyone’s calls. p>Dusty used his hair, then his hat, to hide his scars from blading. In the ring he used white tape to exaggerate them. In real life, was Dusty ashamed of his ‘fat superman’ persona?

Tom - Yeah, he’s just a con, and he’s just a silly con now. It’s poetic justice isn’t it – a great irony that Dusty is still taking bumps? I heard a rumor once that he went bankrupt in Carolina. In Texas and Carolina. Dusty’s the guy who drove Crockett into the ground. And then he’s going to be in control of my life as WCW booker? Steamboat, told me, when wrestling’s hot, it’s hot and ‘two crickets in the ring could draw’. That’s how the second generation sons get into the business – and now Flair justifies it because Gagne did it, Watts did it, Rhodes did it and that’s ‘just the way it’s done’. Well, that’s not the smart way, that’s not the right way…… Greg Gagne? the guys used to like to slam him because he was light like a kite. He’d come up like nothing. He was fun to slam.

Eric - How did the locker room feel about Greg in the AWA days? Was there any animosity?

Tom - No, but Brad Rheingans told me a story one time and it’s kind of sad. He said to Verne, “We protect the business, we put guys through torture in training camp. I was your shooter in camp and trained them but I’ve had to defend your son Greg more than anyone. Anything you’ve ever stood for, a good amateur athletic background. Explain it to me.” (Imitating Verne Gagne) “What do you want me to do? He’s my son, he’s my son. My God!” OK, that’s the sad irony of it, but Greg could work. He put him in a tag team. He didn’t push him like Dusty pushed his son,” The Natural baby,” or Bill Watts put his son over.

Remember Arn Anderson and Doug Dillenger did that con in a gas station to put Erik over? Arn suggested it to Bill Watts, because his contract was up. He was trying to buy longevity or kiss ass to get another contract with easy money from the Turner people, putting the booker’s son over. That’s pretty gracious of Arn. He didn’t step forward and say that he could work a program for me. Neither did Flair but he was good enough to put on a great match with Russo. This is just my opinion. I’m not bitter – I have a better way. I know how to make the playing field level. A meritocracy. We’d have skill based incentives for the wrestlers and make it a team – but not like a Dusty team or clique….. All the bookers have had their chance in WCW. Kevin Sullivan, Terry Taylor, Kevin Nash, you name them. (Imitating Dusty’s voice) ‘Who was the genius baby?’ The only one that had success was Bischoff, because he stole talent from the WWF. Shane McMahon said it best, “My dad made them.”and he did. They made them on WWF TV and how much did the Time Warner shareholders lose when they had to pay off the court costs?

Bischoff and the new WCW will be bankrupt in a year!

Eric doesn’t know how to run anything. He’ll bankrupt those other guys. Give him a year, 18 months at the most. Remember when he wrote on the Internet about ‘Bischoff and the brand names’? Where are the brand names? Where are they now? They are sitting at home and collecting money. They can’t draw on pay per views. WCW PPV’s draw one-tenth of what WWF does!! Just another con, just trying to hang on. Eric’s just a guy that likes hanging around big guys. Hulk is his guy. Where has Hulk been? Is he still getting paid to sit home?

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Eric - What is Hogan’s legacy?

Tom - Hulk Hogan had the best houses I’ve ever been on, when he was working with Paul Orndorff. Orndorff was a freak of nature and a great wrestler and aggressive. He had that big square mandible. He looked tough, he was IT. Great body, OK. Hulk Hogan drew but everyone fed Hulk Hogan. Hulk was king, but it was like Bockwinkel and Verne. They had a deal going on, and there was just one top guy. (I suppose now it’s Triple H or the Rock or Steve Austin). But back then, Hogan was the guy in WWF, and they had the biggest houses I’ve ever been on. I would get goosebumps sitting backstage. I couldn’t believe it. They were packed! OK, Today and Hogan’s legacy. What is it? What did Hogan give back? Why did he trash a guy like Kidman? A good looking kid like that- why didn’t he help him instead? ‘Feed the little fish’, whatever you want to call it. Feed him, bring him up, build the self esteem of the whole team. What’s Hogan’s legacy? He didn’t want to put anyone over. Look, I put Page over.and he’s a joke! I didn’t resist any finish, but now I’m going to speak my mind. I owe them that. I feel like I should tell them. The truth will set you free, right? I am not trying to rail on them. I know how wrestling works. So, people should just learn and try to enhance it. Let’s work this out together. We could have a good deal going on.

Eric - Your thoughts on the whole Mark Madden-DDP situation?

Tom - Yeah, Leatherface. Madden is Pillman’s boy, Pillman trained him. I like Madden, I’ve never met him but I like him. It’s like this – Page and Steiner that fight. Page left the building. OK, in the company that I work for, if one of my guys just leaves their post, they’re fired. End of story! No one, not Terry Taylor, nor Johnny Ace, nor anyone with any stroke has enough guts to say to Page, “OK you’re done, good bye.” Problem solved. Same for any of them! Bagwell, you want a release? Go! I think Bischoff should take all of the his brand names, the Millionaires Club and go! If I took over I’d run it a completely different way. I’d train all the young guys and go after the Y generation. I’d treat people like great employees and people from the WWF would be glad to come back down and get the benefits of being employees of AOL-Time Warner. We’d have stock options. We’d bring in Lawyers, Accountants, CPA’s, class people that were already wise to the con and I would smarten them up further. I’d caal a meeting with the lockerroom and Ted Turner and go “Here, are you guys proud of what you did to Ted Turner?” The best chance that wrestling ever had and you squandered it? You have places to go? Well bye DDP, I mean who wants DDP? Bagwell? This is a guy that has calf implants. I mean, come on! Where do you think you are going to go? Do you think Vince wants to use Sting? Sting covers up because he’s soft and mushy, he doesn’t diet, and he’s not a hard worker,

Eric - Has anyone that you’ve talked negative about, over the last few months, contacted you?

Tom - No, they don’t care. They don’t care, I’ve always talked this way. They know.

Eric - Jim Ross cared about what you had to say.

Tom - What’s Iceface going to say? It would be like reverse discrimination if I didn’t trash Iceface, right? Did you hear about the new doll they have in the WWF? This is just something I saw on the Internet. The story goes that H. Bomb, Jr. fell asleep in the snow and he woke up as Iceface. Yeah, and you can put a buck in his slot and he’ll say anything you want. He talks out of both sides of his mouth……

Eric - Were you surprised when he came out against your comments about WWF salaries?

Tom - Why would he be mad about the truth? Vince is spreading himself too thin with the XFL. So the XFL provides WCW with a great opportunity. If TBS hangs on to WCW it has a great chance of winning back it’s audience. Forget about the Monday night wars…. We’d start again with the young talent and use all of AOL-Time Warner outlets to push the product and win back audiences. At the moment, I’m sure Brad Siegel is like, “Oh my God, I’m faced with a $80 million deficit.” Bischoff could break the US Government! 80 million dollars in losses, right? But if Eric Bischoff buys WCW it’s going to be Kevin Sullivan, Dusty Rhodes, back as bookers plus Hulk Hogan, Kevin Nash, DDP, plus Jason Hervey on color commentary……

Eric - ….And the strap on Gary Coleman!!

Tom - How about David Arquette? That’s my point too. You mean to tell me that they all love the business and all the boys were backstage and David Arquette walked out as WCW Champ and nobody said a word? I would have gone in there and leg dove him and pinned him 1-2-3 and put myself over. I mean, it’s just so totally wrong. What’s going on? Doesn’t anybody realize this is going on? Don’t they get it? I mean, if Seigel wants wrestling product in 12 months time he would be insane to sign a noncompete clause with Bischoff’s group. TBS should reserve the right to produce it’s own wrestling product after the sale. We will rebuild it from scratch with a new product. A CEO with kahonies who doesn’t take crap from the talent. Downsize the contracts. No Millionaires Club. You don’t hear about that now. They must be pretty proud that they’re millionaires but they can’t draw! Game over, sorry. Retrain everyone in work rate skills, teach respect for the business. You pay your dues, you job on the way up and you job on the way down, OK? You know, it’s a southeast regional promotion there. You have to start over from scratch, build a young feeder territory where the guys can learn how to manipulate crowds, learn how to work. Do the thing, build confidence and you have guys like Eaton, maybe Harley Race to mentor young talent. Take care of their own kind. Bring back knowledgeable people that will do the right thing in teaching the new generation of talent. I mean, veterans like Flair and Arn even. Ricky Steamboat. What’s he doing running a gym? He loves the business. They all love the business. I love the business which is why I am talking about it. At the top you need a Bishop. The Bishop of the cult. Flair is the Bishop. Melzter is the high Priest and you (Eric) are like a Deacon of something like that, I don’t know how it all shakes out. And above all you build confidence in the young guys, because that’s what it is all about. Young guys are the life blood of the wrestling business.

I’m sure Scotty is just sick of the bull and all the politics.

Eric - If you could take one guy and put them in the WCW locker room as your authoritative figure, who would it be?

Tom - Well, I don’t know. Scotty Steiner and I, we were buddies. We’d go four wheeling. I like the Steiner boys. Scotty blew up on Flair because he just wants his own time. Scotty is a freak. He’s good you know? He’s not a goof ball or loose cannon. He called Page out but I’m sure that he’s just sick of the bull and all the politics….

I would have Scotty Steiner, Kevin Walchoz, and Scott Norton on the payroll. I would sit everyone down and tell them the way it was going to be and if they didn’t like it, go plead your case to them. I would give them a case of beer, whatever they wanted, fix them up with a lounge room, a big TV, eight hours a day they’re on the payroll. And if you want to talk crap, go and face them.

Eric - What do you think of the choice of Scott Steiner as world champion?

Tom - Real good, he’s jacking the ratings. They should do the best to enhance him. They should feed him people. They should run the guys through him like they did with Hogan. DDP should raise his hand to do a job for Scotty. What, egos? Everyone put DDP over. Like Chris Kanyon. I guess he was a friend. DDP is like Dusty. Dusty gave them all those [ring] names and ‘gave them their start in the business’. That’s the way they try to create loyalty – “Who gave you the start in the business baby?” That’s a simple con. Well, okay DDP, let’s strip those pants off you and get into shorts and let’s see those knee braces -The Forrest Gump of professional wrestling. He’s not going to draw money. Don’t they have rules at the WCW Power Plant? Page was 39, I think when they started training him years ago. Were there no young guys left to train? Do you think it’s a good investment of Ted Turner’s money to pay him that kind of money [$1.25 million a year]. It’s over for DDP and if anyone that doesn’t like me saying it – well trash me!

Dusty and Mike Graham were just laughing at Dallas Page

Eric - So, who in WCW would you build the company around currently?

Tom - Steiner, Goldberg, Mike Sanders… Flair would always have a job and so would Arn Anderson. WCW should be a southeast regional promotion. We need the Bishop (Flair) and we need Arn because they’re buddies. Everyone needs a buddy in wrestling. Arn’s a great talker. And we’re going to build self esteem, because I’m sure, at the moment, the guys have none. …. Bischoff, he’s nothing. He was a bad coffee boy. He was a camera man for the AWA. He was an announcer – and he wasn’t even a good announcer. I remember Dusty told DDP he was clever with all his cliches and stuff? But no. Mike Graham told me at the Ramada bar that they were just working Page. Why isn’t DDP an announcer or commentator? Because he can’t talk, and he can’t interview. Nobody has ever bragged about DDP’s interview skills, but Page bought it anyway! He put it in his book – how much Dusty regarded him.But they were laughing at him. That’s what a geek he is! He went up to see Vince, but Vince couldn’t see him. He didn’t have time. Page is the biggest expose of wrestling ever. Page is the biggest joke of all.

Eric - How much more time do you think Dallas will have in the business?

Tom - He doesn’t have long. But I guess that’s up to Eric. Eric and DDP, they’re buddies, they were neighbors. I don’t know if they belong to a Swingers Club? What do you think? Pillman used to stay over at his house. Do you think he was trying to get a shot at Kimberley? I know Brian, geez. Page was a mark for Pillman. Pillman didn’t like him. He harassed him on the Bruise Cruise. He was a joke. Give it up Page! He’s a geek. Look at Scotty Steiner. Steiner made a monkey out of him. Then Page had to do damage control, courtesy of Ryder. He’s a joke, he’s a laughing stock. Kevin Nash works him. Nash plays both sides of the fence and stirs the pot and picks up his check for nothing. It’s a great con!

Listen to the entire Tom Zenk Pro Wrestling Radio Interview.

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Eric - Tom, are you there?

Tom Z - Hey Eric, how are you doing?

Eric - How are you Tom?

Tom Z - Excellent. If I were any better, I’d be twins …

Eric - What are you doing with yourself these days?

Tom Z - I’m working for a multinational company here in Minneapolis. I manage a production arm of it.

Eric - Excellent, maybe they could bring you into WCW as the manager over there…..

Tom Z - Well yeah – I’d work good with Flair, Johnny Ace and Terry Taylor – I think that would be a good booking committee.

Eric - What about Vince Russo?

Tom Z - I don’t know Vince personally. I think he might be on the right track. I don’t know. I heard from Terry Taylor one time that he’s got a really creative mind and he knows the TV part of it – so I’ve heard only positive things about Russo when Taylor spoke about him.

Eric - I’ve got to ask you because somebody asked me to ask you this question – given 30 minutes with Brad Seigel – what would you tell him?

Tom Z - I’d tell him what they’ve got going on down there. First of all, they haven’t progressed in the 10 years that I’ve been watching them or been associated with them. They’re on track to lose $80 million! Now who are we going to blame for that? Someone’s got to take the heat here. And I say it’s Bischoff ..

Eric - Of course!

Tom Z - He was a mark. He got suckered by the boys. He took the bait – hook, line and sinker. Paying all these big multi-million dollar contracts. And these guys are sitting at home collecting money! Now first of all the company has to make money. I mean its unbelievable but Eric Bischoff could probably break the U.S. Government.

Eric - And that would be pretty hard to do….

Tom Z - Is it! But I think he could do it.

Eric - Well, now they have Gary Coleman working over there. The guy from “Different Strokes” – the little guy – well maybe they could have him run the company.

Tom Z - Are you serious?

Eric - Yeah – he was on the Pay Per View last week. You know it’s funny – I used to goof around when they had Jason Harvey booking and I used to say “Who’s that? Gary Coleman?” And then he shows up… (laughter).

Tom Z - The last I heard of him, he’d supposedly punched some woman security guard.

Eric - Yeah! A security guard. It’s funny, I had Chris Jericho on the show the week that that happened and we had a whole conversation about Gary Coleman punching the security guard and the next thing you know he’s doing run ins and taking guitar shots from Jeff Jarrett [on WCW].

Tom Z - Oh no!!

Eric - They’ve got the retro 80 stars, they’ve got everyone coming in there now.

Tom Z - Oh no!! I mean I remember some of these guys – they were kind of OLD when I was down there. I’m going to be 42 soon and I’m thinking “My goodness, how are these guys still around? They were old when I was down there?” Oh God. They are just doing the wrong thing.

Eric - And I think it’s obvious when you watch it each week….

Tom Z - Yeah!

Eric - Do you watch what’s going on?

Tom Z - I do a little bit. The last time, I tuned into the pay per view (Fall Brawl) I saw Jim Barnett in the crowd next to The Destroyer (Dick Beyer) with his mask on!!!! – I’m going “This is the year 2000 and you’re wearing a mask in the audience!” I watched some of it and I watched Vince’s pay per view but Vince is so far ahead. Instead of trying to compete with them, they [WCW] should just give the people a different product, a different style of wrestling product. Don’t go back [to the old days]. But change it – incorporate some of Vince Russo’s new ideas and get back to more athleticism. You’re never going to catch Vince because he’s on the cutting edge. So give it a little variation – And not just alter the tables where Tony Schavione sits! You have to get some new blood into the show. Inject different things. Flair, he can get on there and talk, but dear gawd take his kid off!! Pay his kid to sit at home. You know Ric Flair, has a legacy He’s done enough damage to himself. Give the kid a rubber mask or something…

Eric - You know Tom, you’d think if your father was Ric Flair you’d be able to go out there and cut a decent promo or something …

Tom Z - Here’s my prescription for Ric Flair’s kid. He should wake up in the morning. Eat a big breakfast. Go to the gym and watch 10 -12 hours of Ric Flair promos and matches every day and go to the Power Plant. Keep him off TV for 2 years until he can fill daddy’s shoes. We’ve seen Dustin Rhodes, we’ve seen Bill Watt’s kid – where are they now?

Eric - Yeah, exactly. I honestly think they should give him a DNA test because there’s no way Ric Flair could have any of his genes in that kid.

Tom Z - Oh no. I was going to say he was just like ‘”a chip off the old block” That would be the best burn you could tell Flair ” Hey, he’s just a chip off the old block.” Boy, that would make Ric seethe.

Eric - Y’know it’s funny. I heard a story once from one of the boys that, before the shows, Arn was working out with his kid [David Flair] trying to teach him a figure-four leg lock, how to apply it, and he couldn’t grasp it. And the guy who was telling me this yelled out “You’d think if your father was Ric Flair, you’d know how to put on a figure-four leg lock.”

Tom Z - The best one I ever heard was when his kid, I wasn’t watching it at the time, but Jumpin’ Joey Maggs – remember him? ….

Eric - Yes, of course ..

Tom Z - He rang me and said “Tom, Tom, turn on the TV right away! Flair’s kid is on there. He just gave a guy a supplex and the guy he gave the supplex to beat him up.” (laughter) Stood up before Flair’s kid – I mean, it’s just a shame and very embarrassing and guys that claim they love the sport, and they protect it, and say they love the business, well you wouldn’t have your son out there. I mean its like “Don’t you know?” And if you don’t know, I’m telling you now Ric. “Keep your kid off TV!!” I’m sure none of the boys care if he gets paid – (‘the bloodlines’ or whatever lie you want to say). But don’t expose your son. You’re setting him up to fail. You shouldn’t do that. It wrecks wrestling and it wrecks credibility. And wrestling has none now and that’s what it needs.

Tom Z - Oh Pillman and I were just seething!!! (laughter) They were taking up valuable time. And all the boys would give you the ga ga – “Oh, he’s a nice guy brother..” brother.. all the brother jive (laughter) I cut to the chase. I didn’t want to see it. I’d played the game in the WWF and that was the worst part about wrestling – all the lies. All the BS. Nobody gets down to business. And they still are floundering. You have to keep your mouth shut. And guys get quiet in the car. Pillman and I used to light guys up just to gauge their reaction. You could figure out the stooges. The top guys. They’re the stooges and they’re still there. When was the last time Sting had a memorable match? He didn’t draw when I was down there and he doesn’t draw now!

Eric - That’s so true.

Tom Z - So who likes them? What have they got going on?

Eric - So true…

Tom Z - Do they have nude pictures of somebody? I don’t get it.

Eric - You know Tom, it’s so funny because I did this show about a month ago called “Who’s got pictures” with exactly that concept. I never had a more popular show in my life. I still have people ringing in 5 weeks later saying ‘I know who’s got pictures.” It’s the same concept as they got over there. Now speaking of Brian Pillman. You teamed with him for quite a long time and had a most successful tag team …What are your memories of Brian Pillman?

Tom Z - Brian Pillman was a fantastic guy. His first love was football, but like Dynamite Kid, he was always fighting the short man thing. But they both had so much athletic ability. Pillman was a fantastic guy, a good friend and it just killed us when Ole (Anderson) broke up our tag team. We had great matches with the Midnight Express [Eaton and Lane]. But I believe behind the scenes they leveled the playing field – some of the top guys that couldn’t compete with guys like myself and Brian night after night after night. If you’re running around, chasing women at night, having a good time, and you still could perform when you got trashed the night before and have fun – they don’t want to see it because they are miserable and they are married. …Pillman, he got buried by Dusty in The Yellow Dog angle. They had Pillman in the Light heavyweight division, but Watts just canned that. Then he got screwed over by Bischoff with the Hollywood Blondes and that was the best thing they had going as a tag team. Behind the scenes there is a lot of stuff that goes on. A little clique of guys and then finally the booker man. Now I know for a fact that Pillman never wanted to go to the WWF. Everyone wants to retire in WCW. Anyone that’s jumped – Luger, the Steiners – they all come back. Because the money sucked before in the WWF. Vince paid you what he wanted to pay you. Then, Bischoff got the cash [ATM] card and started giving out money, so Vince had to up the ante. He never wanted to do that. That’s the old trick of a promoter you know. Tell him “You’re a star [because] You’re on my TV.” Anyway, Brian – that’s a really sad case. Some of these guys [journalists]. They know what goes on behind the scenes. Some of these guys that know these thing have to be accountable. Supposed journalists. They should be more accountable. You could see it happening. He was in a downward spiral.

Eric - Were you surprised when you heard the terrible news about Brian?

Tom Z - No, to tell you the truth. I predicted he had about two years to live after his ex-girlfriend killed herself. I knew him well. He was at Joey’s (Maggs) house in Atlanta when he got the news (about his ex-girlfriend). I got a phone call right away. Joey had to pick him up off the floor about four times. He said “I think that’s as close to a nervous breakdown as he ever had.” He said “It was just terrible.” Just awful. It didn’t help what they did to him in wrestling. They manipulated him. Brian was a heck of an athlete, it’s just a sad, tragic, story of misuse.

Eric - Shawn Michaels recently did an interview where he said, the night before Pillman passed away, he was just in real bad shape, real bad shape, and the signs were all over the place – and the guys really weren’t surprised.

Tom Z - Exactly. And he died in Minneapolis here, right out in Bloomington.

Eric - Yeah, right in your home town …

Tom Z - All the signs were there. And then the next night [after Brian's death] Vince comes on TV at Brian wife’s house. Quite a business!

Eric - Yeah, wonderful business!

Eric - What lead up to you pretty much hanging it up. I mean you had a real good thing going, you were always in great shape, and ahead of a lot of the other guys?

Tom Z - Well, it just depends on the bookers. I went through Ole, Flair, Dusty, Bill Watts. They all had their turn with the Turner people. I’m sure that the Turner people, Herd, Petrick, and Kip Frey, and look at what they did to that Bill Busch. They’ve all had their run. They manipulated them. Then they were sick of wrestling talent being in charge so they got Bischoff. He talks out of both sides of his mouth. He knew how to play the corporate game and then the boys hooked him….. He’s just a guy that likes to hang out with big guys. I’ll never forget his son down in Florida one time at a TV taping. Remember when they used to do it down at Disney? I said “Hey, how’re you doing?” He said “Do you know who my dad is? My dad’s Hulk Hogan’s boss!” I wonder where he got that from? ‘Out of the mouths of babes…” So the psychology was quite easy to figure out with Eric. And all Eric was in the AWA was a coffee boy for Verne Gagne. So how come he got that spot? He must have wrote a heck of a resume, but I think there is a story that Jason Hervey, I heard a rumor once. That he wrote to the Turner people that he was real interested in hiring Eric as a game show host and Jason kind of put him over the top. It’s like in wrestling when nobody wants you, nobody wants you. When somebody wants you, everybody wants you. It’s like DDP putting out rumors. I heard he was in the WWF office. I’m sure they said “Yeah, OK we’ll keep in touch.” I’m sure Vince just grabbed his belly and had a heck of a belly laugh with that fool walking out of the office. I mean what is he – 55 years old?

Eric - Yeah pretty much ….

Tom Z - The only reason why he got anywhere was because of Bischoff, his next door neighbor ……and maybe his wife.

Eric - Well that helps …. You mentioned Bill Watts there. Now a lot has been said about the myth and the legend of Bill Watts. A very fascinating man to listen to. What was it like working for Bill Watts?

Tom Z - He came in and he played that big, old, tough cowboy. (impersonating) “Now you boys are gonna get back to kayfabing and being professional.” The day he came in and read the riot act in the locker room was the day of that match I had with Pillman in Jacksonville, FL (WrestleWar ’92). So we went out there and we tried to steal the show. And we had a heck of a match. But, if anyone was watching that. Pillman and I worked good together, just like Benoit and myself or Austin, but THEY NEVER MADE ANYTHING OF IT. Bill came in, he didn’t care. He cut salaries, and I think he got a percentage of what he cut. ….. He was full of BS also. Putting himself over. He didn’t last long. What do you think of his son? I think he was getting like 750 a week to get trained at the training camp.What kind of message do you think that sends in the locker room for guys that just stumble upon the business, work their butts off, like in ECW. Travel around the world and try and be something. And then the booker puts his son in there and the kid’s got two left feet. He’s never made it without daddy. But I guess it’s the American way, look at Bush and look at Al Gore. So …I don’t know.

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Eric - You also worked with Paul E. [Heyman] when he was a manager?

Tom Z - He was a great guy. A great guy. He was really good. I remember him, he was really nice to me in New York when I was first getting in the business with Verne. We traveled around Manhattan, he set me up with some chics, a lot of fun. He was a great guy. How is he doing by the way?

Eric -Last week was supposed to be the last week on television with TNN.. But they extended him with the help of Vince McMahon to the end of the year or until he gets another deal

Tom Z - I wonder why they don’t get it hooked up together. Vince and Paul E. They are both New York boys and why don’t they feed off each other, have a little talent pool or help them out. Vince has a lot of money now.

Eric - I wonder if they’ve worked out something like that behind the scenes?

Tom Z - That’s what I would think. Paul E.’s real clever and real crafty. He’s a survivor. He’s been around the business since he was a kid I believe.

Eric - So you’re not surprised at the success he had with ECW?

Tom Z - Not at all. See that’s the thing. Paul’s got a great mind for it and he’s tenacious too. He doesn’t back down. I saw him throwing a garbage can at Ric Flair, like they were in a cat-fight. “Oh yeah, f’ you, and f’ this.” Back and forth. It was a draw. No punches were thrown, but he was mad as heck and they were back and forth, back and forth. It was great entertainment. It’s a great memory of mine. He didn’t take anything from Ric. Yeah, he stood his ground and I always knew he’d be a success and always be in the business. He’s got a great mind, they (WCW) should use it. They should put their egos aside and let’s do business. With all the money that they’ve spent in WCW, Harley Race could still be on the payroll. They never take care of their own kind.

Eric - You’d think so.

Tom Z - Yeah but different minds have different perceptions. ….. Oh man, they could collaborate but the guys don’t stick together

Eric - Yeah, now another guy you mentioned you worked alongside was Steve Austin. Are you surprised at his success?

Tom Z - No, he was one of the hardest working guys, always in shape, he could go, go, go. I never had a problem with him, he never hurt me. He was always careful. He was with his first wife, Jeannie I think? That was his valet. But all I was doing was kind of getting him settled down or experienced putting in 20, 15 minutes and just kind of being vanilla, getting him ready for Dustin.

Eric - Yeah – feed him to Dustin, ha ha.

Tom Z - Yeah. Shine him up and feed him to Dustin! The best Vince could do [for Dustin] was dress him up, give him a wig and some makeup. Just like they did to daddy and the polka dots. They don’t use people right in WCW. Look at all the talent they had that went to Vince and he made them stars.

Eric - Exactly. Look at Benoit. He was there for 4 years and they didn’t even use him in the world title picture until the last six months. But he’s been with Vince for less than six months and he’s already in the title picture.

Tom Z - Exactly! Vince, I’m sure he just laughs at what fools they are in WCW. He runs a class act, or he knows the wrestling business. He lives it. That’s why he’s successful. Down in WCW, they got hold of the pocketbook. They don’t have professional management, you know what I’m saying? Vince is living proof that the style works that he has. He’s going to have to be held more accountable now because his company is a publicly listed company. WCW is living proof that you can’t put old style promoters close to other people’s money and expect there to be anything left at the end of the day.

Eric - When is the Tom Zenk book coming out?

Tom Z - I don’t know, there’s something in the works but I don’t know how cutting edge to be.

Eric - Well these days everyone is just saying whatever’s on their minds.

Tom Z - Yeah but I always did that before when I was in the business. I have always been pretty much of a straight shooter. Have you read any of the books?

Eric - Wel I read Mick (Foley)’s book.

Tom Z - I read Mick’s book, I read DDP’s book but Dynamite Kid’s book was the best and most honest with Foley’s so far.

Eric - Dynamite’s book was awesome. DDP’s book was great but he just talked about how great he was.

Tom Z - But that’s his favorite subject, you know what I mean? DDP, it’s like. OK, in the book. Can you see where all the guys allude to all the pads, the knee pads. They ribbed him!! This guy was bandaged up. He’s the king of rehabbing. Oh, c’mon. Give it up.

Eric - The book WAS kinda funny. Everytime someone had a excerpt in there, instead of a story, it was just talking about how great DDP was.

Tom Z - Yeah, yeah like ” Can you guys please say something good about me”.

Eric - And Rocky’s book. It’s a good idea but what does this guy have to say. He’s only been in the business about 4 years!

Tom Z - Well, he drew out the mega-mall here in Minneapolis. He drew the biggest crowd they ever had. There were people lined up for the book signing. He’s really a show man and it’s like WCW never learns. It’s always someone else’s turn. Not Z-Man’s turn, not Hulk Hogan’s, not Ric Flair’s, there are always young guys. It’s a young man’s business and they think the world is gonna stop when they are done with wrestling. Well, I’ve got news, it just keeps going on and on. I mean, look at Vince. Look at how they created him (Rock) from nothing.

Eric - Well with Kevin Nash, Gary Coleman and Jeff Jarett …..

Tom Z - Now that Jeff Jarrett …. didn’t he get beat by a woman? How does he have a top spot in WCW? He got beat by a woman? What’s that?

Eric - Well, it’s the good ole boys network…

Tom Z - That’s right, Jerry Jarrett promoter in Tennessee. That’s right.

Eric - He’s also Vince Russo’s boy, what can I tell you.

Tom Z - I don’t know. I don’t see any talent with Jeff. He’s short and he’s just really not much of anything.

Eric - I don’t see any talent whatsoever in the guy. You know he’s the kind of guy who – and this is my opinion – that they give you the ILLUSION is over becasue they put him on TV so much. But he’s not!

Tom Z - Yeah. He’s not over. Just look at the gate. You can hear the crowd. Who they roar for. Now, this is my biggest axe to grind. I used to take it personally. I used to thin “God did I do somthing wrong?” What did they do to Bill Goldberg? What’s the deal with this guy? I’ve never met him, but I got phone calls “Who’s this Goldberg guy?” The guys at work, they were really into it with Goldberg. They took the shine off this guy in record time. Gosh.

Eric - It’s UNBELIEVABLE. They had their Rocky and they had their Steve Austin right under their noses.. and you know Tom, exactly, it’s just the politics. He was too new to the business and he didn’t know how to play the political game.

Tom Z - Well I knew how to play the game. I didn’t kiss anyone’s arse in the business and I still don’t. I walked away from it. ….Oh my! If you play the game, you’re gonna get burned and I gotta look at myself in the mirror [next day]. Some of these guys that play the game, well I guess they’re good for the economy. I’m sure they’re pissing away their money. But, oh man, just the dangerous games, the dirty games. Look at the bodies piled up. Rude, Pillman. I mean, I never buried any friends or guys that I knew OTHER than wrestlers. I mean, that’s really sad.

Eric - Very sad.

Eric - I knew a couple of the boys and would go back to the lockerroom in Philly some times. You used to come in and there was no hold on you and you would talk about anything and anybody. You could have a guy standing 5 feet away from you and you’d say “This guy sucks!” And what was funny was, when Vince had that thing going down with the sex scandals, you were very vocal about that stuff that was going on there.

Tom Z - Oh yeah, I knew about the different things. I mean, didn’t anyone ever figure it out. I left all the sudden. I mean you can read about it in the court papers [from McMahon's 1994 trial]. It was Rick Martel, Pat Patterson, and Terry Garvin. I mean all of a sudden that happens [his departure], what did they think? That was the most fun I ever had, wrestling for that territory for Vince. That was what I wanted to do. Wrestle for the WWF. Above the Mason-Dixon line THAT’S wrestling. I never thought about going down south to the NWA and fighting Dusty and that clique of guys. I knew what was going on there. I heard from Martel. I mean, I worked hard in the WWF, but Rick cut his own deal. As to the WWF scandals … Oh my God. Well now Vince is going to have to be accountable [with public listing] and that stuff can no longer go on. I mean just think about the lives these guys have affected because they had some stroke with the office. I mean, I’ve never been in any territory that was run like that. Maybe it’s changed now, but it’s like “Oh my God and YOU’RE an agent to the company.” The best thing was just to walk away and then they sued me for every penny I made!! What! $77,000 and you disrupted my relationship with my girlfriend at the time and papered her parents house. I mean, c’mon you big bully Vince. That’s pretty chickensh@t.

Eric - How did that lawsuit go?

Tom Z - I stalled them for two years. They wanted money that I signed in Japan and they wanted a percentage. I said “Mrs. McMahon, you don’t have TV in Japan. You had it for one week and they canceled it.” They said “We have to have something to show that you just didn’t walk away.” The only money consideration in my WWF contract was 50 dollars for TV, like it said in Dynamite Kid’s book. You gotta be really proud of that Vince? I mean back in 1987, Wrestlemania 3. He had the nerve after Sheik and Duggan got pulled over and they had some gimmick on them. He said, and I will never forget it – I looked around the room. I sat in the back and I was listening to him pontificate to the boys – “This thing [wrestling] is bigger than the NFL,” and everyone was sitting there and shaking their heads like puppets. I’m thinking “The NFL has a Players Union.” I mean, OK Mr. PT Barnum. Just a big Carney. I thought “This goof. My checks aren’t THAT good….” I’m not proud. I worked hard for the company with Martel. We put in a lot of time. And I’m sure they had a hard time following us [on the card]. We had good matches and they couldn’t understand why I walked away. Well, two and two is four, I think they know now! All the things have fallen in line. I’ve always been opinionated but I guess I was right for what I said to you back when I talked to you in Philly.then. I guess I was right. Everyone knew where I stood. And now I think I was right all along. If not, then I’d like to hear it first hand.

Eric - I agree, Everything you said back then all came to fruition at some time.

Tom Z - Yeah, it did. I’m not a liar. I mean I can manipulate but I don’t chose to be that way. Wrestling’s a business. So much for honesty, responsibility, quality or goodwill. They complicate the business by manipulating people. Why? Because they can – because they have the stroke. And they like to play with people’s lives. I’d like to talk to Seigel. Sit him down and say “Don’t you get it man, don’t you get it?”

Eric - I guess he’s being worked

Tom Z - Of course he’s being worked. But how naive are you?

Eric - Well this past week, over at WCW, the boys have passed a petition around in support of Vince Russo, because obviously the ax is going to come down sooner or later. And every single guy back there with the exception of one signed this petition to go to Brad Seigel. And what I said was they should pass the petition around the wrestling fans and let them sign the petition and see what kind of reaction Brad Seigel gets.

Tom Z - I mean, my goodness isn’t that kind of kids stuff? “Let’s pass around a petition and let’s see what we want to do, we want to pick the coach, because he’s a good guy.” C’mon, have some kahonies! I mean, I’ve got a chain saw. I can start it up and come down to Atlanta and go through there and cut out the dead wood. “You got places to go? You go to Japan. C’mon DDP go to Vince. Here’s your unconditional release. No more free money.” Do you think Ted Turner wanted to make millionaires out of wrestlers? God love them, that’s great that they got in his pocket or whatever. But they’re all going to be real sad when they close the doors. Who’s going to pick it up? Crockett? Dusty ran that into the ground. I mean Dusty, what did he do? Piss away all his money?

Eric - I hate to end this and I’d love to have you back in the next couple of weeks…

Tom Z - OK, let me give you a little summary here. Here’s the keys and maybe you can tell Seigel. Professional management. Contracts should be based on merit and performance. They should have financial accountability, good booking and they should push real talent, not buy up used talent. Make stars. They have the power of TV, but they’ve never really learned how to utilize TV to create stars. I’d be glad to help them. If there is anything I can do to help WCW they can call. Johnny Ace knows my number. Taylor, Flair. I’d like to help them out, they’re on the wrong track. Too bad.

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Eric Gargiulo: How are things out in Texas?

Kevin Von Erich: Everything is great. We have some warm weather, I am just looking out over the fields, and baby-sitting cows like I do all the time.

Eric: Your father had an extensive film collection I gather from the conversations we have had.

Kevin: Yeah, he sure did. It has been up in the attic at the Sportatorium all of this time. The Sportatorium, that’s pretty hot down there in Dallas, the humidity changes a little bit in the winter but during the summer it’s pretty dry. Evidently it was just right because they showed one of those tapes at the Dallas Film Festival last year. They just grabbed one and stuck it on, and rolled it. It had sound everything. Some of the earliest productions ever done in Texas.

Caller: What did you think of the passing of Chris Adams?

Kevin: That was really sad. There were a lot of really good craftsman out there. Guys that are really good at getting in the ring, giving 100%, and doing it again tomorrow. It is such a shame that it’s not available for them anymore. Guys like that desperate, and that is how Chris had gotten. I knew Chris to the point where I was a pall bearer at his funeral. I have been down twice now to southern England, Devon where his parents are from. They had a little ceremony down there in a church, from the 14th century. They are real nice people. Chris has a couple of daughters. Chris’s brother lives a real comfortable live over there in England. He has medal’d in the Olympics, 3 Olympics back to back. His wife was a bronze medalist in Judo. In England, it is not like its over here in America where we rack up a lot of gold medals. (laughs) So, they are pretty big celebrities over there you know? I was kind of hoping that I could get Chris’s kids, but it’s none of my business, and I was sticking my nose where it did not belong. I was thinking maybe the kids could be in that family and move out of this environment. It just did not come about. That is kind of where I have been.

Caller: Some wrestlers have said that it was difficult to wrestle in the Sportatorium. What are your thoughts on wrestling there?

Kevin: For one thing, the Sportatorium has been a real old, established building, even though it is like a tin barn. In the early days Elvis Presely played there, and only there in Dallas. Then Willie Nelson would only play that building when he came to Dallas, which was pretty often. All sorts of people. It was a historic building before we ever got involved with it. Then our show was picked up by the Middle East television over there in Cyprus, then Japan, Taiwan, England, France, so tourists would come to Dallas and they would want to see the Sportatorium. They could not believe it was an old tin barn. As far as it being a hard place to work, I have never heard that and I have worked almost every building in the country. It is one of the easiest buildings to work, and the reason is because the ring is right there. I would not say it is the best place to work in the business, because the best to work is down in Mexico City at Le Vista Arena. A bull fighting arena, you have people stacked up right over you, so you have people right there in your face. That is really the best kind of crowd to wrestle in, when you have the people right there, and you can draw from that energy. The Sportatorium was that way too, especially when it was packed to the rafters. When it was packed, it was just a feeling that I cannot really describe. I used to high jump in high school and college, so I knew how high I could jump, and how far I could do this or that. As soon as one of these places would fill the place up with people and there is all of that adrenaline, I could go a little higher, a little faster, last a little longer, a little harder, I loved wrestling in that building.

Eric: I thought one of the most unique things you and your brothers did at the time was sign autographs for the fans all the way up until the bell rang, and even sometimes after that.

Kevin: I appreciate you saying that, I thought it was really the only way to be. We were always kind of going by, “You can’t go wrong by doing right.” I know that other wrestling operations want the little kids to stay back and not touch. Let’s face it, they are little kids who came too see their hero, you need to rough up their hair, kind of wrestle with them if you can, just touch them, slap them backs, “Hey you’re a big kid.” “Hey you’re a pretty girl.” Just be nice, be approachable, it makes it such a memorable experience for the kid. I will tell you that if you are nice to somebody they may tell one or two people, but if you are mean to someone they are going to tell 50, and then those 50 are going to tell 50 more, and on, and on. It’s not just the right thing to do, it is good business too. You treat people like human beings and don’t worry about being poked with pencils, or bothered by fans. Professional athletes, we can take it. We take a lot worse. They are not going to hurt us.

Emailed question: Did the Von Erich-Freebird feud begin in Texas or Georgia? I remember Terry Gordy teaming with Jimmy Snuka going against Kevin Von Erich and a partner of his choice many times and to my recollection this was before Gordy and Michael Hayes were in Texas.

Kevin: Yeah, that was probably where I started to admire Jimmy Snuka. I was pretty young when I got into wrestling. Right when I got out of college I moved to Hawaii and started to wrestle out there. I was out there with Ricky Martel for a while, we ran that thing into the ground, it was just not to be, Hawaii is just not a good wrestling spot. The people over there are into vacationing you know? Anyway, I wound up driving a petty cab if you can believe that to get plane fare home, if you can believe that? (laughs) It was a humbling experience, it was really good for me. From there I went out there to WTBS. I went to WTBS directly from Hawaii and worked with some really good people out there. Jimmy Snuka, Terry Gordy, great guys that were just. Back in those days wrestling was changing. I’d say it had not changed yet. The guys in the dressing room were your 40 and 50 year old guys that had been in the business so long, they were smoking back there. An athlete doesn’t smoke, that’s the way I was always brought up. You go to bed early, you take care of your body if you want it to perform. So we get out there, that’s when I wrestled Terry Gordy and Jimmy Snuka. Snuka hit me with that splash, 260 pounds coming off of the top rope, hitting me as hard as he could. Man, I just admired a guy that could get up like that. He comes down hard, he was a great athlete, so was Gordy, Michael Hayes was a heck of a character out there, it was a lot of fun. It was before we started trying to play to a younger crowd. The kind of stuff that we enjoyed like really good rock music with a real interesting opening like La Grange, or Kerry would play Rush, “Tom Sawyer.” Ted Nugent, “Stranglehold.” In Japan we would come out to something else, sometimes it was Foreigner, “Cold As Ice,” or something. It starts off with something kind of interesting, and it has that crescendo. That’s when we would kick the doors open and come out, just blow the roof off of this place. Then what you would have to do is keep the energy of the match higher than the energy of that entrance song. Wrestling just kind of mimics rock music. Because we started playing to a younger crowd we started selling more cokes and candy, instead of the beer and pretzels. We were out-marketed like crazy. My dad was an old-timer, he wrestled the old style. The kids were coming and they were wanting pictures, posters, t-shirts, buttons, coffee cups, keychains, and all of that. We weren’t selling all of that, we were just letting the fans make that stuff up and sell it to each other. Now Vince, Vince McMahon was a real master at that. He went ahead and had all of the dolls out for Christmas. I can remember one of the toy companies coming up to my dad’s office one day, we were all sitting there. It was a really big one, I think it might have been Mattel. My dad had this greasy bowl of chili that he used to eat everyday for lunch. So, dad’s chili was there, and “Mr. Big Toy Manufacturer” had to sit out there and wait for dad’s chili, and dad took his time so the time left. (laughs) Dad did not realize where wrestling was going.

Eric: How innovative was your company with the music, the matches, camera angles, etc., was to what we see today?

Kevin: Most of our television crew, we were all just a bunch of young guys, the camera men, engineers, directors, and everything. We all tried new stuff, we shot it on dual audio so we would have a stereo sound. We did a whole lot of innovative things in our production. Back then, you had NWA, then WCW, then Turner Broadcasting. I think Vince bought that. They hired all of the people that put our show on. With the brothers dying it kind of got. I say kind of, big time. It got painful to come. I know the people loved us, and we liked them too. Anyone that likes you, you can’t help to like them back. With all of the death, and all of the sadness, it was painful, and I can’t see paying money to hurt. I know there were a lot of times I was in that ring, there was someplace where I would rather have been. The last thing I wanted to be was looking across the ring and feeling like I have to kick that guy’s butt. I was feeling bad for so long though, that I just couldn’t wait for them to ring that bell most of the time. Now I am thinking of, “He’s watching me. I will be up there with him someday, love, peace, and happiness” (laughs) Let’s all be friends. That is kind of what grief does to you. It was kind of hard to think, ” I can’t wait to kick that guy’s ass.” Because what was really on my mind was something else.

Caller: How come Bobby Duncam never worked World Class since he was from Texas?

Kevin: I wanted to know, the callers that have called in have said such nice things, and I want you all to know, I haven’t been in the ring for ten years and you all are remembering me, I want you to know that I sure do appreciate you guys thinking of me like that, and especially living up in Philadelphia where you are not going to hear any positive news about the Von Erichs. I am so grateful to have fans up there and I hope to come up there and have a cheese steak with you all real soon. I don’t know that Bobby Duncam was a heck of an athlete. A lot of wrestlers came from West Texas State University out here. The Funks, Gene Kiniski, I think Kelly Kiniski played football out there, Tully Blanchard was there, a lot of the boys. They call him Bradshaw now, we called him Big Johnny Hawk. He was from Abilene Christian I believe. That is right near West Texas State. That area has produced a lot of professional wrestlers, just a real hardy bunch of Texas skoll dipping, gold ropers, because they are just plain tough. Bobby Duncam was one of those, Bobby Duncam used to go to Japan and just terrorize those Japanese wrestlers. He was a good athlete.

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Caller: I met you in 1982 when you worked for Fred Ward out in Georgia and you were such a gentleman. Do you have any memories of a match you had which was your Iron Claw vs. Jimmy Snuka’s Mandible Claw?

Kevin. In 1982 in Georgia? Yeah, oh shoot. I want to tell you that Jimmy Snuka is known for a whole lot, he can do anything in the ring. He is the epitome of an athlete I think. (laughs) But, let me tell you this. I don’t remember that Mandible Claw. It must not have been too much. (laughs) I am sure it hurt or he would not have done it, but it is nothing that really stands out in my mind. It’s not like one of those splashes from Kamala, or Snuka, or something like that. But Mandible Claw? I don’t really remember that one.

Caller: What went into the decision making behind David’s proposed NWA World Title reign?

Kevin: Well, it was, I guess the world has changed a lot, we can be a lot more frank. The fact was we never really knew where we stood with that NWA crowd out there. They all stayed on the Carolinas, Virginia, and the East Coast out there. And they would go down to Florida, that would be really about it. It was really a close knit bunch of guys. Rhodes, the Anderson brothers. Dave really wanted to be friends with those guys, but it was so tight that it was pretty much a closed circle. Dave was frustrated, I was pretty much comfortable going solo my whole life. Dave always wanted to be one of the boys, and he really wanted those guys to like him out there. I didn’t think it was going to happen. For one thing, Dusty Rhodes was their World Champion. He was probably weighing 4 1/2, something like that. It didn’t look, I think they wanted to put the strap on someone to give them a little bit of credibility. I hate to say that because Dusty is a hell of a guy. We never knew where we stood. We had pushed the NWA Champion out here in Dallas quite a bit. Every decision that came out of the NWA came out of the Carolinas, or Atlanta, so we really just, you know it was wrestling old school style about to turn into a young people’s kind of a game, and they had not made that change yet. We considered that group out there, the old NWA, pretty much in the dark ages. They were still getting a hold, working a hold out in the middle of the ring for fifteen minutes, none of the really high risk stuff that we liked to do, and the real fast pace. They were pretty much doing it the old style, and that was our thing. If you old men want to wrestle, let’s get some fresh batteries for your pace makers. We are going to do it Texas style. That is what we were saying. I know that insulted a lot of people, but we were kids you know? You don’t think about feelings and things like that, you know? You just think if you want to be a King, you have to kill a King.

Caller: What are your comments about steroids and drugs related to all of the recent deaths in pro wrestling?

Kevin: Well, OK let me say this. I am assuming he was probably thinking about Hawk. Hawk was a great guy, a really great guy, so articulate, a hell of a guy. I hated to see that, but remember this. When the Road Warriors first started, steroids were not illegal. They were performance enhancing, they for professional athletes, and people that have come out of surgery. God, I mean even the cops were taking them. That’s where the wrestlers were getting them, the cops! The cops, you know they want to be built, and to be able to take care of business when they’re out on that street at night. So, they were really abused. I think by some kids out in Florida. Teenagers were starting to take them. The thing is with the steroids, you have to work out super hard too. If you have a steroid in your body as you work out, your heart its a muscle too, it gets bigger, and an enlarged heart is a bad thing. We came from, well I don’t mean to pop off you all. My dad used to always tell us, “Pay the price that the other guy won’t pay.” We never really did get into steroids. I say we didn’t, Kerry did. Kerry kind of did when he was throwing the discus for the University of Houston. He was one of our Olympic hopefuls, that was the year he, Matt Wilkens, and some other guy were going to represent the United States, and that was when that Korean airliner got shot down. Kerry had the AAU record for under 19 in the whole world, but he couldn’t throw against the East Germans, or the Russians, people on his level you know? Anyway, they under a doctor’s care would give that stuff, it wasn’t an illegal thing back then, but it did get abused, it would be like anybody could go into get that stuff, and then they didn’t work out, they would just take that stuff. You could always see someone who takes steroids. They had pimples all over them, bald headed, it’s pretty much a giveaway. And they get fat too if they don’t work out, they retain water. It was always easy to see those guys. Wrestlers were always looking, looking for things like that. “He’s a roid freak, he’s a roid freak.” Some guys, I don’t want to name any names, but there are some of the wrestlers that are up north there. Billy Graham, he discovered Hogan you know, out in a club in Florida as a bass player. I remember Superstar would go to take a leak, and blood, you know? He was doing them, but he was not doing anything wrong. He was hurting his own body and he knew it. You have to make a decision. This is what I do for a living. I am a professional wrestler and I want to be the best one that I could be, and if other guys are taking it than I am not going to short myself, I want to be a better athlete than he is, so you have to say this is what I do, I’m going to be the best that I can, and if they are going to do it too, it comes to a point where you think, “Damn it. I am going to have to do it too.” It’s a reality and it did get a lot of guys. I am happy to say that was not a big thing in my family.

Eric: Billy has been very outspoken against his own use and is planning on releasing a book next year.

Kevin: Good. Billy is a really good guy. A really good guy.

Caller: What are your thoughts on the possibilities of a union and promoters giving healthcare?

Kevin: I have never heard anything about it. I think it is a great idea but a little late in coming. God, even migrate workers have a union. Wrestlers, you are hurt, it’s just tough. Your family goes without. So you get in the ring hurt, you stay hurt, one day comes along where shoulders, elbows, knees don’t bend anymore, back. It is a high price to pay. Wrestlers and rodeo guys. Those guys had it worst than me because they made all of their trips by car. It was really tough, but injuries are part of it.

Eric: Do you have a message you can pass along during such a critical time, the holiday season, about suicide and the after effects on family and friends?

Kevin: Well Eric, they are ugly comments. The holidays, you are right. It is really tough for me to look across that Thanksgiving table and see all of those empty chairs, and my little kids where my brothers used to be. There are people out there that are suffering right now. What I have to say is not what I wish I could tell them. Grief doesn’t get better. When you lose someone, all of your friends bring food over for the first couple of weeks, the reality of the loss hasn’t set in yet. The reality, it really hits you in the face one, two months later. That’s when the food is not there, that’s when the house is empty, and that’s when the people are really suffering. Dang it you all, it doesn’t get better. It just gets to where you are used to dealing with. It’s the hardest thing to deal with that God gave us I think is grief, dealing with it. I have heard people say, “How could there be a God and let this kind of suffering go on?” You know, to a lot of people that is a hard question, and it used to be to me until an old man told me a story one time. This is an old man, Mr. Brock, he is 102 years old, and he built a little farm house on our property out here, in fact I am in here right now. He raised cattle like I do, and he said, “Kev, when you have to separate the calf from that mama. You have to put the calf in the pen and the mama outside the pen. They bellar, and cry, and you can see tears coming out of their faces because they want to be with each other so bad. It’s such a beautiful thing, a mother and a calf together. Eventually that calf grows to her size, yet he or she is still trying to nurse. If you don’t divide them, separate them, that calf is going to suck that mama dry and kill her. She will die, and the calf will die too because it won’t be weaned. The man has to step in and wean them, and it’s a painful thing to the both of them. It’s a painful thing to both of them, and they just cry to you, and just cry all night up to the house for you could hear them. “Relieve our suffering,” is what they are saying, but we know better. But if we do relieve that suffering, then they are both going to die.” It’s just like God thinks on a higher plain than we do. When I try to think of things that my mind, any of our minds are not capable of mass produced, and we can understand so much, and some stuff we can’t. That’s where I have become comfortable with that position. There are some answers that I will never have. There is a God, there is a Devil, the Devil destroys, and God rebuilds. That is a fact I can attest to because I am a product of it. My parents divorced after 43 years. Look, don’t feel sorry for me. You all are up there with the Towers, and all of the losses you have to go through. I know there are harder stories than what I have. Gosh, I wish I could tell you something more uplifting. Well, that’s just the facts. It just doesn’t get better. I wish I had a more uplifting message for you, but that is just one of the toughest things we have to go through. But, you know what? We have to. People say, “How can you do it Kev? How can you stand on your hind legs after this?” It is because just when you have no other choice but to get up and go, or lay down and die, than it is a pretty easy choice. It’s tough, but it’s something that you’ve just gotta get tough and do it. When someone is telling you something, like they are talking about suicide, you know? Don’t think that people who talk about suicide never do it, because that is not true. I think if someone talks about it than they are really thinking about it. Do your best to get your mind clear and do whatever you can to tell them what they will do to their loved ones if they commit suicide. It’s a terrible thing. It seems like a quick fix to their little problem right then, a few years they probably won’t even remember their little problem. As they say, keep your pistol cocked and your powder dry, and the world will turn. You have to keep that attitude.

Caller: Will you ever return to the ring?

Kevin: You know Eric, I run four companies right now, and I am swamped. I have got the Internet, the cattle, commercial properties, the stock market, and then other things I am doing with oil and gas leases. Really just no time, I wish I would have learned to make my money work for me a long time ago rather then dislocate my bones. I am so busy now I just don’t see that I could put the time in to train and come back, even though I still weigh the same, same height, still got a pretty good bench, I climb, do push ups, chin ups, swim, for endurance. I have got some bad knees so I can’t run. That was the biggest part about preparing for wrestling was I ran the high hurdles. As long as I knew I could run the high hurdles, I knew I could wrestle. My knees aren’t good enough to run the high hurdles, or even sprint, so I couldn’t get in the ring right now. I think I have had too many knee surgeries, and back injuries. I’ll tell you what though, I’d like to when I see some of the stuff going on out there, I’d love to get in there. There is nothing like going to the ring in an electrified house, that bell rings, and then all of the sounds kind of just disappear. You can almost hear your heart beating. You are in the ring, believe it or not you don’t look at hands, you don’t look at feet, you look right at his eyes. The eyes tell every move he is about to make. I miss that feeling. I miss that feeling of being so highly tuned, so sharp, it felt good for him to try to do something, and for me to counter it before he could.

Eric: Will any of the old World Class footage be available on DVD?

Kevin: Oh man, I am glad you asked me that. As a matter of fact, I am putting together some DVDs right now. I believe some are going to come out in Walmart, and some in Blockbuster. A few other places too. On these DVDs, you know where you can have the bonus features? I am going to come on and give you some behind the scenes stuff, and tell you some little things that I am sure you all don’t know, that will be really interesting to you. I want to tell you something about the wrestling business too, it is funny as heck. We played some great tricks on each other. There are a lot I am going to tell you about on the DVDs. So keep an eye out, I am going to really pour my guts into them, we all are going to enjoy them, and I am going to enjoy making them too.

Listen to the Kevin Von Erich Pro Wrestling Radio Interview.

The Triumph and Tragedy of World Class Championship Wrestling

Heroes Of World Class Wrestling

Gentleman’s Choice (the Chris Adams story)

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