Find-a-Sweetheart Blog

Reader Mark tells how he handles finances on dates

2012-05-29T15:23:40+00:00

Reader Mark is always sensitive to the financial aspects of looking for love, and can be counted on to give me the male perspective. So I asked for more:

As always, your comments are interesting, and I would like to use some of it if it is ok (you always say yes). De-identified and edited a bit.

How do women react when you ask how they want to handle the bill for a coffee date??? You certainly are passing up the change to be cavalier!

I did forget to deal with who pays after the first date or two and the subtle negotiations. will write an addendum. Got any thoughts on that from the male point of view that I may want to consider?

Marks note speaks exactly to what I describe in the “Who pays?” article: that both sides (Mark reports on the guys side) are watching how the finances are handled, and making assumptions about the other person by their actions.

Consider this a blanket permission to use any and all of my spew, edited as you feel necessary. De-identified is ok, or not, depending on your needs.

To answer your question, they will either offer, which I do my best to defer, after assigning bonus points, or say “I didn’t bring any money” to which I put a tick mark in the “entitled and unequal” box. The secret is to watch them, the face gives away how “fair and appropriate” they think that is.

I buy, I prefer to buy, but it is a test/probing question which gives insight into expectations/philosophy of fairness and the like.

If I parsed the previous communication well, it is never an issue. If I wanted to speak frankly to them, I would mention I am looking to meet an able and capable equal, not to purchase a “little girl” who is not capable, or able or willing to care for themselves.

Yeah, tell me it sounds like a business deal, which I have heard before, and yes, it is.

[Ed: I agree. Despite the romance, finding a mate is very much a business deal. If you don’t think so, you haven’t been through a divorce. It’s all about finances.]

In the event of unequal incomes, you do what you both can afford to pitch in on! If you want the company, then you (me) can pay, certainly, but I always give warning that the “golden rule” will be in effect, meaning whoever brings the gold, makes the rule.

Now, in practice I still ask what they want to do, want to go, want to eat, but again, test against how entitled they may feel to my checkbook. If they put it out there the same as they expect me to, then great. If they want to go to Chez Hoity-toy for dinner, and offer to pay half, great. If they expect me to treat, not so much.

And cavalier, weren’t those horsemen? One definition suggests chivalry, but chivalry is a one sided Faustian bargain. There is nothing in chivalry for men, and when the concept arose, it made sense, but not in this century.

The Geezer.

I got a giggle when reading the Social Q’s in yesterday’s NYTimes Style section. Chivalry was the topic:

Every time I take my wife to dinner, she ends up asking how much it cost. I tell her that, as a gentleman, the answer is between me and our waiter. She then becomes upset and says: ?I?m your wife and have the right to know.? Who is correct? Is chivalry dead?

Anri, White Plains

Chivalry is not dead, though we?ve all seen cases when it looked to be on life support. Joint bank accounts, on the other hand, are thriving. And most married couples pool their money. So those veal medallions are probably cutting into her net worth, too. Next time, say: ?I would love to shield you from the filthy hand of commerce.? But if she insists, simply pick up your cloak from the muddy sidewalk, Sir Walter Raleigh, and tell her how much those vittles set you back.

Reader Mark chimes in about Ms. Brown of NYT “Modern Love” column

2012-05-27T15:21:23+00:00

If you haven’t read the article and my response, start here, before reading what Mark has to say. Mark has been a reader since my very first newsletter 10!!! years ago. Way to go, Mark! He regularly graces me with his always interesting and sometimes salty comments.

Ms Brown is toxic, and not a realist. I have a dear friend with a kid with CP, and in a chair wearing diapers at age 17.

Bob is not verbal, but he can understand you, and is a charmer. Frequently pictured in school publications, and all the kids love him.

She and I used to go out on what resembled “dates” but weren’t. I took her for good company, and it was always well worth it.

Mom is a talented woman, who knows how to handle and relate to men. She managed to find a man, a good man, actually, and got married.

I was more turned off by the “princess”, her tattooed, pierced, 14 year old daughter, than I was by her son.

Just sayin’.

Mark, the analytic.

PS, thanks for your generally cogent words on who pays. I don’t do more than coffee on the first date, and sometimes I offer, sometimes I say “how do you want to do this”?.

Kathryn gets compliments and loves them!

2012-05-25T15:18:09+00:00

I got quite a few comments after my May 1 *eMAIL to eMATE* about the issue as a whole. Seems like I am doing better and long-time readers are noticing. I’m not sure just what IS better, but hey, I love compliments. What do YOU think? How am I doing, and what am I doing that seems better? So I can do more?

Your newsletters are getting better & better! I really enjoyed your response to the woman with the autistic son. You have a knack for presenting what is “the highest good for all” with grace and ease. I love (and have always admired) your respect for honesty. Your advanced, profound way of handling honesty allows me to see that the “lie first, tell the truth later” method as shallow, unevolved, and almost unintelligent. Lee

You rock - Brown response is GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This comment refers to a letter I wrote to the New York Times. See here.

who pays - very well written. word choice and flow is terrific. I don’t mean to be critiquing - this is JUST SOOOOOOOOO GOOD! Gloria

Great issue, Kathryn,
Ben

(Ben is the founder of MentorCoach, where I got my coaching training and start. This is a supreme compliment, that he even READ it!)

Kathryn writes to the New York Times

2012-05-23T13:57:54+00:00

If you haven’t already read the story in the New York Times that I refer to here, go do it NOW before reading what I wrote in reaction. And let me know what YOU think about what the author wrote in “Devoted but Dateless.”

I am a psychotherapist, romance coach, and regular reader of Modern Love, but I could hardly stand to read ?Devoted but Dateless? once, never mind the second time to make sure what I gleaned from the article was accurate.

As a romance coach, I help singles find love using Internet dating sites. First rule: Don?t lie. The impulse to lie is a statement about the liar, and is that what anyone wants to portray to a potential lover? Plus, lying in Internet dating implies willingness to trick another person into a date and perhaps emotional involvement without fully understanding the situation first. No one likes being tricked.

Hannah Brown complains that having an autistic son scares men away. Normal teenage sons (and she has two, almost) would scare most men off. Middle aged men ? her target ? are very marketable, and also smart enough to know the perils of starting an intimate relationship at midlife. Why would they actively choose to add teenage boys to a risky mix when other options are available?

Plus Brown seems not to take responsibility for the fact that she spun the wheel of fortune when she had each of her children. She got a healthy winner in son #2, but the bad luck shared by many when her son Daniel turned out damaged. Those spins and results are her responsibility and not the fault of the single men she is looking at.

Brown needs to do some work to get ready to date. Her presentation is so whiny and resentful, and very unattractive. She needs to face up to her situation. If she is going to try to date, she needs to get her attitude in line, then honestly share her life, and she needs to do so early in the correspondence. Yes, her boys, particularly Daniel, will scare off 99% of the men she tells. But isn?t that what she really wants? A date who knows her full story and goes ahead with her anyway?

An AA expression is “You are only as sick as your secrets.” In my book “Find a Sweetheart Soon!” Chapter 13 deals specifically with secrets, what and how to tell. I’d be glad to send Brown a copy.

Now that she has gotten this article published, though, all a date would have to do is Google her name and the secret would be out. Perhaps the problem is solved.

Kathryn Lord, Romance Coach

Four chime in on LAT (Living Apart Together) relationships

2012-05-21T13:54:52+00:00

From a reader:

Hi Kathryn—A friend of mine, Lise Stoessel, wrote a book called Living Happily Ever After Separately How Separate Spaces Could Save Your Marriage, by Lise Stryker Stoessel (Brandylane Publishers Inc., 2012) based on her experience of improving her marriage by living separately. I think you and many of your readers might find it interesting.

From a coach friend:

Thanks. These were fun reads for a Sunday! Charles and I could be an example of a LAT

And another:

Now I know why I have so much in common with you, Kathryn: We’re both inveterate NY Times readers.

OK, so I’m taking it as a sign from the Universe that a LAT together relationship might be in the cards for me. Because after almost 10 years on my own, it’s hard to imagine EVER living with someone again. And maybe I didn’t EVER want to live with anyone, yet didn’t have the courage to admit it first time around.

It feels liberating to say it OUT LOUD.

Then my old buddy, who inspired me to be a Romance Coach in the first place, and now has a guy friend:

Interesting thoughts and ones that I can relate to. Yes, John and I are still “seeing” one another but he is more ardent than I. I like my time here at home and he rattles around in three hours away. Ah well.

So when are you heading north? It is fast becoming that month of May. The temp here today in the shade is 65!!! The grass is green and my daffodils are in full bloom.

Looking for you soon.

Ideas on saying goodbye

2012-05-20T14:00:21+00:00

Another article in a recent Sunday?s NY Times (4/29/2012) sparked my imagination and memory in a good way, ?Untying the Knot, and Bonds, of Marriage.? One of the chapters of my book ?Find a Sweetheart Soon!? has a chapter (9. Clearing the Road Ahead) about getting emotionally ready for a new partner, in part by clearing up leftover feelings from past breakups.

The Times? ?Untying the Knots? article was about the increasing incidents of couples splitting to have some kind of ritual or ceremony to mark the end of their time together. One couple, both artists, even made a film about their extraordinary trek on the Great Wall of China that they planned to end their relationship.

Years ago, while enduring an extended and wrenching breakup, I fantasized about a ceremony to end the years we had together. We never were married, so in an odd way, a solemn observance at least would give some recognition to the importance of what we had had together. It was clearly my fantasy.

My in-the-process-of-becoming-ex would have nothing to do with it. But if we had been able to pull it off, I think it would have really helped my grief and recovery. Instead, I had therapy, in which I cried all the way through every session for a year. A ceremony of sorts.

What about you? How have you ended relationships? Have you ever done a formal ?ending,? other than going to court? Is it too late to have a more satisfying ending?

The other breakup with a real marriage and divorce ended with my ex taking me and our witnesses to lunch after the court ordeal. I had done the legal part, so the lunch proved to be his peace offering.

Who pays?

2012-05-19T14:02:10+00:00

You are meeting for the first time. You?ve connected via an Internet dating site, her photo says she?s pretty, he has proven that he can write and is funny, the atmosphere crackles with possibilities. All that remains is to check out the chemistry, right?

Any experienced Internet dater knows that the first meeting is crucial, a make-or-break event loaded with possibilities and risk. So after the first look-over, after he and she pass the ?Do they look like their photo??quiz and each feel a tingle of electricity, the next ? and crucial ? test comes up: who pays?

It might come fast, at the Starbuck?s cash register, or it may wait the whole length of a fancy dinner, but when it comes time to pay, everyone is watching.

Men know they are expected to foot the bill. While guys may recognize the benefit of paying (he is seen as generous, manly, cavalier, etc., and she may be more willing sexually because of it), many also resent it. But women want to feel valued and taken care of, and a guy?s willingness to pay symbolizes that. Women rationalize that they spend much more on appearing attractive and well-dressed than men do. You can see a collision coming, can?t you?

It?s hard to imagine this sort of dilemma a hundred years ago, or even fifty. A man?s ability ? and willingness—to pay for a date was fundamental to the process. Dating was and is a sorting process, and women have always assessed a man?s financial ability and generosity by what he was willing and able to pay for when they were courting. Women brought attractiveness, housewifely skills, and (hopefully) sexual willingness as their part of the bargain. Women didn?t work at all back then, particularly after marriage and children, or were paid much less than men. My parents (who met on the job) were married in 1947, and Mom didn?t work after that because Dad didn?t want her to, because that was a statement about his ability as a man, even though they started out in a tiny apartment and I didn?t come along for two years.

Now many women?s earnings are equal to or greater than their male counterparts. That earning power increases her value in the mate market, but also changes the traditional deal in the dating dance. Another knotty dilemma is that women are out-educating men. More women than men are getting post high school education in practically every field. Add to it vast numbers of minority men in prison, the increased acceptability for gay men to be out, proud, and not in the heterosexual mate pool (it?s hard to get accurate figures, but probably more men than women identify as gay), then add women?s longevity compared with men, and you?ve got a mate market that is increasingly out of balance. Young (under 35) attractive women have an increased value (desired by men of all ages), as do older men who have more and more numerical advantage as they age, whether they are well-heeled or not.

If you are looking for either of those groups (pretty young women or older men), you can expect that they will be much more sensitive to the ?Who pays?? issue. Each group knows that they are in demand, and will be looking to get the best deal possible. Finances are part of the bargain. The young pretty women, ready to trade their good looks and child-bearing ability, are looking for men who can support them and a growing family. The older available man may have been through one or more expensive divorces, may or may not be financially prepared for retirement, and probably is looking for a woman who will not be a financial burden.

Guys (young or older) looking for the stunning young ladies: you?ll improve your chances by getting your finances in order, putting aside money for dating, and paying up for these ladies? company. Older women (over 35, and with the pressure increasing as the age go up) looking for ?good husband? material: you, too, should get your finances in order (debt down, net worth up, retirement plans in place) and be ready to share dating expenses. Women can?t change the calendar even with the best plastic surgery, and youth is a valued commodity, but they can add to their value by being in good financial shape.

How do you smoothly handle the ?Who pays?? dance?

First, guys: Know that you are expected to pay and be prepared. Your willingness to pay ? particularly on the first date—and comfort with the process will be keenly observed by your date.

For sure, guys, if it is ?just coffee,? PAY! You will never get another chance to play your role so cheaply. But if the coffee date goes well and another date is scheduled, be prepared to foot the bill the second time as well. Women know that coffee is cheap and will be watching for how a bigger expense is handled. Just do it.

But women, beware: while the man will know that he is expected to pay, and that you are watching what he does closely, he will be watching you, too.
He may really want and expect to pay, but for sure, he wants you to know that he has and to appreciate his gift. He will be sensitive to how you have contributed to the bill?s total: Did you order the most expensive items on the menu, and every course? Expensive drinks or water? Or did you respect his wallet and go for a mid- or low-priced entr?e, skipping appetizers and expensive add-on?s?

Ladies, you really have the hardest part to play. Like in ballroom dancing, you have to intuit your partner?s intent and then do your part with grace and aplomb. You need to signal that you realize times have changed and that you are willing to step up and share the costs of the ?getting to know you? process. At the same time, you need to preserve the guy?s pride and sensitivity. He needs to be allowed to ?man up? and play the traditional male role in romance if he wants to.

Here?s a suggested map for the delicate interchange:

Guys, signal quickly that you are prepared to pay and want to do so.

Women, if the man signals his intent to pay, thank him graciously and let him do so without a protest or struggle. Then let him know that you intend to treat if the two of you should meet again.

If the man has forgotten or does not know how to signal intent to pay, then ladies, step to the front. Say: ?How would you like to handle the check?? and proceed by following his lead.

Now, this scenario holds IF you want to see the other again or want to preserve the option to do so.

If first glance says ?No way do I EVER want to see this person again,? then you can signal the other person by:

Men: Pay for your own coffee, a small one, and let her pay for her own. Or if it is a meal, ask for separate checks.

Women: Insist on paying your own bill and do not allow the man to pay. If he gets difficult, don?t order anything.

Your date will get the message. Men will not feel that they have to pays for something they do not want. And women will not feel that they ?owe? anything.

LAT tidbits and links

2012-05-16T14:40:22+00:00

I?ve got a client who, with her new partner, has come up with another variant: She and her young daughter have moved into the first floor apartment of the house her guy friend owns. They go back and forth ?with permission? to each other?s space.

Yet another fellow I am working with wonders if he could really expect himself to learn to live with another after spending over 20 years alone, and after accumulating enough stuff to fill a three bedroom house.

Drew and I have evolved a pattern where he lives during his work week in our RV parked near where he teaches and 40 miles from our Tallahassee home. I am very happy to see him when he arrives on a Thursday night. I spend the time he is away reorganizing the house from the weekend and doing my own work, mostly writing, which is far easier to do in a quiet house by myself. Most weeks, I drive to where he is one night and take dinner.

Even when we are in Maine and end up in the same bed every night, he spends most days in a separate building ? I call it his palace, a spacious glass studio/workshop with one corner set aside for his computer and consulting business. We continue to have a lot of time by ourselves. Basically, we are both introverts (I know, no one believes it about me, but it is true) and the time alone keeps us sane.

My 88 year old mother and her 93year old husband George are LAT’s—not by choice, but because his poor health requires more care than she can give. However, she is in an apartment just a short walk down a few halls from his room in the nursing facility. Understandably, he would prefer to be in his own home/apartment, but she rather likes the arrangement. He gets taken care of, and she gets time by herself to rest and take care of business. It works.

Interesting links:

On msn.com
At abcnews.com
In the San Francisco Chronical
A New York Times collection of six different pieces on living alone, including while in a relationship.

Here?s some serious research about the trend.

And even a documentary. Anyone know where I can get “Two’s a Crowd” to watch? I don’t see it in Netflix.

A new solution for Cheryl to be envious of

2012-05-12T14:39:21+00:00

So this week, the New York Times does it again, this time writing (again in the Home Section), with an article called With This Cottage.

This story is about a guy (Robert Pardo) who wooed his now partner by buying two (now adorable) cottages on the same lot in Lake Worth, Florida. He asked her to marry him on the third date, and she said an immediate “I’d never lived with a man” and wasn’t about to start at age 50. It is not a good idea to give such an ultimatum to a resourceful guy willing to put down some cash (a bargain at $62,000 and about $70,000 in renovations).

(I have a serious case of house-itis: I love looking at houses and want to buy every one I fall in love with. These two places are ADORABLE! Plus her cockatoo.)

Cheryl wants the bridge 2

2012-05-09T14:37:44+00:00

I got this email last fall from my client (and reader) Cheryl. She?s a few months into a new relationship with a guy who sounds wonderful. But Cheryl is having her own difficulties incorporating this high speed guy into her already full life. She often feels overwhelmed and oddly tempted to end the relationship, even though she knows how lucky she is and how much she would miss him. We talk about making space and time, and how important it is not to mix up her need to get her life under control with getting rid of the new guy to do so.

Cheryl?s email refers to the article I mentioned in an *eMAIL to eMATE* Living together? Or not? And the Vermont couple who came up with a creative solution.

This inventive couple built on to her existing house. They added almost a separate house for him in a side yard, and then a connecting second story bridge between the two. Here?s is Cheryl?s reaction:

I am clearing out over 1000 emails, and finally read this newsletter. I WANT THE BRIDGE!!! Ha- actually still on the horrible pendulum- but took some time this weekend to take care of my own life, and going back over tonight- hopefully will feel better due took care of the thousand emails, bills, groceries, laundry, litter boxes, Beth’s tickets for Christmas, etc etc. Thank you for helping me! I love this edition of the newsletter! :-) Cheryl

Maybe Cheryl and her new guy can come up with something like the Vermont couple?s bridge. The best part about the solution is that it is so creative. The two ARE artists, which probably helped. But they also lived completely separately for 18 years.