The Past

Just under nine years ago, a new resource and community site for church Web designers came online. Godbit.com connected a group of young (and old), passionate, skilled, bright-eyed Web designers and “god botherers” over the course of the next several years, spurring a new level of excellence and craftsmanship in church Web design.

Through this site I was introduced to many friends, colleagues, and eventual collaborators, coworkers, and even a few employees.

Then, as all things do, especially on the Web, the momentum died out slowly. The founders had been put in positions of greater responsibility and “busyness”, and the site eventually shut down.

The Present

Recently I was handed the keys to the site. If for nothing else than to keep it alive as an archive, for historic, sentimental, and perhaps even technical utility. I will keep this site alive for that purpose, as long as I am able.

I have a small idea of continuing to post new content, primarily as a reference to cool tools, tech, and projects out there in the area of church Web design and development, just as an exercise, even if no one reads it.

The Future

I would love to know if anyone out there feels a need for a (re)new(ed) resource site of this type. There are several sites that have popped up over the last couple years for this same purpose, perhaps Godbit could be a sort of aggregator of that content, and a meeting point for those interested in it.

What would you like to see happen with this site? Have you felt a need for this sort of resource and community, and have simply lacked time to create it?

If we build it, will they come?

Blessings,

Matt

Robert:

Welcome John! This interview has been a long time in the making. I’m happy we’re finally getting a chance to make this happen!

You’re one of those rare breeds that can do both development and design, and do both very well. What came first, design or development?

John:

That’s an interesting question. I suppose I would have to say programming, but that’s only because I started to learn how to program when I was a child, but didn’t seriously apply myself on design until after high school.

When I was 10 years-old we got an Apple IIe computer and Dad started to teach me how to program in BASIC. I was really only interested because I wanted to learn how to make games and simple animations. In the beginning I just typed in programs from the manual or books that I found at the library, but I eventually came to understand what most of the commands did and began to enjoy it.

By the time I was 14 I had learned enough to start programming simple games in QBASIC. I got my own computer around that time and also began to learn how to do complex vector illustration with a program called XARA. I did a lot with programing and illustration during highschool and even created a program that allowed someone to create a simple photo screensaver (first in Visual Basic, but latter on in Delphi).

After high school I got into Web Design because it seemed like a great way to utilize my gifts in both fields.

Robert:

After high school, how did you get into web design?

John:

Well, immediately after highschool I spent two years working with a Christian ministry in Indianapolis. After completing a training program in counseling, I spent many months there helping with programs for troubled youth and highschool students. I did a number of things while I was working there in Indianapolis, but constantly found myself returning to the computer to assist with design projects of one kind or another.

After that experience I moved back home to begin focusing on something vocational. I decided on Web design because it looked like a good way to use my gifts in both programing and design. I spent a year and a half at home pursuing a course of self-study. I worked through Bruce Eckle’s “Thinking in C++” and took a couple of courses in design.

I eventually went back to work for the same Christian ministry, but this time in their Web department in Chicago. I spent 3 years there, which was a fantastic experience for me. The pay wasn’t much to speak of, but I had access to all the technology (servers, etc) that I could handle and a mountain of projects to cut my teeth on. The one other guy who did web stuff there left shortly before I started working there, so I ended up doing everything for a while — both programming and design. Shortly before I got there they started transitioning their Web stuff over from PHP to Ruby. So I ended up getting into Ruby several years before Rails made it popular in the United States.

Robert:

Fast forwarding to today, when you look back at how you got started, what you learned, what advise would you give to your former self, if you could?

John:

That’s kind of a hard question. I have learned so much about life in general since then. Really, there are a lot of things I would do differently now. But as I look back, I am so grateful for God’s work in my life. I wasn’t really thinking clearly about the path I was taking, but God did so much to guide me into things like Ruby and open source. He also put me in a place where I could master so many of the skills that I use on a daily basis. All I can say is that I am grateful for the way that he led me.

One thing that I wish I had understood earlier was the value of “secular” work to the kingdom of God. For a long time I was really torn between doing something “for God” in full-time Christian ministry — something really radical — and pursuing where my gifts seemed to be taking me. I didn’t stop to think that maybe the reason that God had gifted me this way was that he wanted me to do something that wasn’t overtly “Christian”.

As Christians most of us aren’t called to be pastors or oversees missionaries, or something radical. Most of us are called to work with our hands. To do the work for which we’ve been gifted. To do it in a way that honors God and is really excellent. To be a witness for God in the workplace and at home with our families.

Robert:

So, you’ve been freelancing for 6 years now. What prompted you to go out on your own?

John:

A lot of it was having the flexibility to choose the kinds of projects that I wanted to work on. I also wanted to be able to control my work environment. A number of my friends had already launched their own freelance businesses. Seeing what they had done gave me the confidence to be able to launch something on my own.

Robert:

Can you tell us about your experience with getting your freelance started?

John:

I didn’t have much on my resume at the time other than my work in Chicago, so spent a great deal of time working on open source (like Radiant CMS) and probono work (like the Ruby website) in the beginning. Looking back on it I probably spent far too much time on these things. Cold-calling would have been more effective. :) Nevertheless my open source work and work on the Ruby website eventually put me in touch with the Pragmatic Programmers. Their website ended up being a wonderful addition to my portfolio and led to additional work. Between open-source, blogging, and making the right connections I was able to up my visibility significantly which helped jumpstart the business.

Fast forwarding to today, when you look back at how you got started, what you learned, what advise would you give to your former self, if you could?

Be gentle with others. My personality type is very strong. I often state things in terms of absolutes. I’ve spent a lot of time reading up on and soaking in 37signals opinionated approach to design and business. And while I’ve personally benefited from this approach, I have to be careful not to let my opinionated nature manifest itself in a way that is fleshly and unkind to others. As a Christian and an idealist I tend blurt out what I believe to be true. But sometimes I’m completely wrong about what truth the truth is or state it poorly. Be humble about your opinions. Learn from others where you can. Often regular people do have better ideas.

Focus on making money. I think this one is a little counter-intuitive for some Christians. It certainly was for me when I first got started. I spent a lot of time (and still do) investing in projects and ideas that I cared a lot about regardless of wether I made money or not. If this is your tendency: be careful about this. Making money enables us to spend time doing the things that we care about. And if you care about the right things this is a huge blessing. Money is a great enabler. Don’t be afraid of it.

Robert:

What can you share about God and what He has done for you that others might need to hear?

John:

One of the biggest areas of change in my own life over the last couple of years has been my understanding of the Gospel and what that means for my own life. Three years ago I got involved with a church here in Raleigh that constantly emphasizes the necessity of Gospel in the life of the believer — not just the unbeliever.

It’s far too easy to view the Gospel only as a means of salvation. And while the Gospel has much to do with salvation, it is not just fire insurance. It is because of what Christ has done on the cross that we can have a relationship with God. There is nothing that we can do or should do to add to this.

For myself I often fall into the trap of thinking (particularly after failure) that there is something more I need to do in order to be in right standing with God (if I say this prayer, or go apologize to that person, or do something good for God). And if I do well, I have a tendency to see it as something accomplished by my own hand and to be proud. (See what I have done Lord? Now you will certainly bless me.) But both patterns of thinking are worldly and have nothing to do with Christianity. The Bible teaches that our standing before God is a result of the Cross. Everything has been accomplished on Calvary. There is nothing more to do. When there is failure, it is covered by Christ’s blood. And when there is success, it is by His grace and through His gifts.

This frees me up to live life out of a heart of worship for God, regardless of how I am doing from day to day.

What the church needs more than anything is more of the cross. More of a Biblical understanding of this doctrine.

What Christian web designers need today is more of the cross. More of a Biblical understanding of this doctrine.

Camp here. Let it change you. Let it change the way you do business. Let it change the way you interact with others. Let it change the way you pursue excellence. Let it change the way you worship God.

Robert:

If you’d like to learn more about John, you can visit his company site, Wiseheart Design or his companies facebook page.

Also, if you do a lot of rapid prototyping on the web, then be sure to checkout his newest project, Serve.

Yannick:

What led to your decision to become a Pastor? And what have been some of the highs and lows in that area of your life?

Brandon:

When I was a teenager, still in high school, I wanted to go in a couple of different directions – accounting, insurance sales, business management – all with the motive of making money. Then God called me to preach. The testimony of my wife, Angie, the work of the Holy Spirit, and help from the autobiography of W. A. Criswell all worked together to convince me ministry was God’s will for my life.

The high’s would definitely be the individuals and families that I can point back to as “success stories” where I saw God really working in their lives. That would include some repaired marriages, people who developed into leaders, and definitely those who came into a relationship with Christ.

One of my favorite times in ministry was after we had been in Kentucky for a couple of years. We took on the attitude of re-planting Scottsville Road Baptist Church, and as a result had a ton of flexibility. We tried all kinds of things and connected with all kinds of people.

As for the low’s, those have come in times when there has been tension between God’s purpose and our preferences. In other words, my greatest frustrations have always come when evangelism was placed second to “the way we like it.”

Yannick:

You’ve been designing websites for churches since 1998 and freelancing since 2007. How did you get started with Web Design and what do you enjoy about freelancing? What are the drawbacks?

Brandon:

My brother is a full-time web developer. He’s been coding for well over a decade and gave me my first copy of Macromedia Studio (now Adobe). I enjoy the connections I have made with other designers, but also the ability to make something happen with code. At the end of the day, I can see visible results of what I’ve done, which isn’t always the case with ministry to people.

I like freelancing, and for me, there are few disadvantages other than the time away from family, but I work hard to make sure that family comes first.

Yannick:

A few months ago you wrote a blog post titled How You Can Help Me Help Pastors. Firstly, tell us a bit more about Pastors.com for those that have never heard of it. And secondly, how has the response been since your blog post?

Brandon:

Pastors.com is an online community for Pastors. It was launched a little over a decade ago and saw enormous success, but lately has lost some of its community because of its closed-network structure. So we’re completely reshaping the entire site to be much more content-oriented. We want to provide Pastors with helpful resources that they will need in moments when ministry is happening.

I’ve had an overwhelming response from people who want to contribute content. I think this has to do in part with Rick Warren’s obvious love for Pastors, but also with the fact that there isn’t, to my knowledge, another online community any larger that is solely dedicated to helping Pastors.

Yannick:

You are also the Editor of Fuel Your Blogging. How many writers do you currently have and how do you keep your writers motivated and posting regularly?

Brandon:

Fuel Your Blogging has been an amazing journey. We currently have three regular writers, but more that are consistent contributors. We definitely have room for more right now, but I’m picky about the content submitted. We avoid all the “make money online” talk and stick with the artform and industry called blogging.

As for keeping writers motivated, we look for self-starters, but we’re also working on a new editorial calendar that will enable us to throw challenges out there for writers to tackle.

Yannick:

You have a passion for Social Media. Could you share a few tips on how Churches/Ministries can more effectively use social media to communicate their messages online?

Brandon:

The first and biggest message churches need to understand is that social media isn’t new. It’s as old a the hills, literally! Human beings have been networking since the garden of Eden. It’s just that now, technology has afforded us some tools to make it happen across a broader spectrum.

The best way for a church to utilize social media is to be social. That is, be human, be real. Relate to people. Join conversations. Offer resources and then respond to questions in a human voice.

It’s never about how many tweets we send or how many fans we have. It’s about the question, are we connecting people to ourselves and to each other?

I would also throw out the challenge to set your people free. Churches can help their members by offering sermons, videos, and blog posts with the ability to send them out on Twitter or Facebook. In other words, everybody in your church that is involved in a social network should be in your volunteer army of online evangelists.

Yannick:

How do you balance your work as a Pastor at Saddleback, family man, as well as managing all your other web related duties?

Brandon:

Balance is an illusion. Nobody is balanced. Balance is a lifetime process of moving back and forth and we’re never quite on center. What I try to do is make sure God gets my attention very first thing in the morning. My nose needs to be in a printed, leather-bound Bible, not in my Twitter feed. I connect with people throughout the day and do freelance work at night. I always make sure my evenings are not saturated with work. As a family, we watch a show or a movie, eat dinner together, and I try to read a story to my daughter when she goes to bed.

I remember Andy Stanley saying that the most important half hour of the day is that time when we’re putting our kids to bed. So I work in between those things on web-related duties.

Yannick:

Lastly, would you share your testimony of how you came to faith in Christ?

Brandon:

I grew up in a very traditional southern Baptist Church. One summer an evangelist came named James Shutt. He preached the gospel loud and clear… and then louder still! On the final night, he preached about hell and I made the connection between trusting Jesus and my eternal destiny. I knelt by my Pastor and received Christ as my Savior. Life and eternity are different now because of that decision.

Yannick:

You’ve been involved with Church media for quite some time now, could you share with us how you got started in multimedia?

Dave:

I am a Pastors Kid, born on the front pew. =) As far back as I can remember I have been involved in church, in some form or fashion. My father was a music minister for about 20 years or so before becoming a senior pastor. So, since he was involved in music it was easy for me to jump in and run lights, audio or video. I remember being 8 or 9 years old and running tech in church.

From there I got my hands on my first 386 computer when I was about 13 years old and couldn’t get enough. I just sort of had a knack for it. I remember having to rebuild my Dad’s computer a few times because I had messed up a few things here and there. =)

I started dabbling in video production in high school and then even more in college. I soaked as much in as I could from friends and from tutorials that I could find on Google. It’s amazing how much you can learn if you really want to. You just have to be a self-starter and self-teacher. I have never really had any formal training in media. I was a pastoral ministries major in college with a minor in music. Everything I have learned in Media & Tech has been from peers or self taught.

Yannick:

Do you think it’s necessary for media and technology to be used in church services, especially in this day and age?

Dave:

I think necessity just depends on who you are trying to reach. There are some people who don’t like media in church. That’s why we need lots of different kinds of churches because there are lots of different kinds of people out there.

I do believe that we live a culture today that is constantly competing for peoples attention and too often the Church goes unnoticed. I think we have an awesome opportunity now, in the day and age which we live in to leverage media and technology and to draw attention to the good news of Jesus Christ. We can leverage media and technology to “compel them to come in.” Luke 14:23

Yannick:

For churches new to putting video and audio on the web, what software and equipment would you recommend to stream services or record sermons?

Dave:

This is a great question and I really think a lot of it depends on what type of budget you are on. The good news is though that there are tons of options out there to do things on a tight budget and relatively cheap or if your budget allows you to use a more professional solution. The good news is that there is something for everyone no matter where you are at as an organization.

If you need cheap solutions you can use Vimeo, YouTube, USTREAM or livestream. All of these work well on a smaller scale. If you have a budget you can look at solutions like Multicast Media or Lightcast Media. Both are really quality solutions that I have experience with. As far as edit and capture go, I would say Final Cut Pro is my winner.

Yannick:

There’s a big debate on the web about using Flash vs the HTML5 video and audio elements. Will Fellowship Church go the HTML5 route, stick with Flash, or offer both? Also will you offer audio or video in the Ogg Vorbis format?

Dave:

I am defiantly a fan of web standards and believe that we will go the route of sticking with HTML5 in the future. Flash has way too many drawbacks in the long haul. I think in the interim period while systems and services are playing catch up to start offering MP4 h.264, I think we will see more and more services offering a hybrid solution of both flash and h.264, much like YouTube currently does.

Yannick:

Your team has made some amazing videos available online. What impact have these videos had? Have they greatly improved church turnout? What sorts of feedback have you received?

Dave:

It really depends on the video. Some are just promos and spots trying to draw peoples attention to an event or series that is coming up. Other videos are incredible stories of lives being changed. The hope is that no matter what the video is, we would be able to craft it in such a way that it would draw a response from people. Whether that’s to call people to get involved, get baptized or to become a fully devoted follower of Jesus Christ.

All of the hard work is worth it when we hear stories of how people came to Fellowship Church for the first time and it blows their mind, or they are sitting in a service and their heart is touched, or they are compelled to jump in and serve. It fuels us to keep pushing even harder when we hear the stories of lives being impacted through the weekend experiences here at Fellowship Church. And the media and tech is just one piece of the puzzle. The worship music, announcements, videos and message are all carefully and meticulously crafted to make sure that we are effectively communicating the hope of Jesus Christ.

Yannick:

You wrote an article awhile back titled Exit Stage Left: Recalibrate Your Heart for Church Production magazine, encouraging those behind the scenes to remember the “why” of what they do. What prompted this post?

Dave:

I just really wanted to encourage those who are usually behind the scenes tweaking dials or crafting code to make sure that we are not hiding behind our gear. I’ve been guilty of it and I know others have been there too. We need to be sure we are getting on our knees and serving those around us. We need to be personally serving and consistently inviting people to know Jesus.

Yannick:

All work and no play makes one dull. When you’re not working, what pastimes help keep you sharp?

Dave:

I enjoy movies, music, video games and all other kinds of geeky stuff. My wife makes fun of me. =) I also love to play with my kids, go on a date with my wife, hang with friends, go for a run or anything else that is a change of pace. It’s important to change your rhythm once in a while. I also enjoy connecting with other church media/tech/web guys and talk shop. Love to hear what others are doing in the Church today.

Yannick:

Tell us about your love for Christ and how you came to be a Christian.

Dave:

Being born and raised in the Church, I accepted Christ at a very early age at a kids service. Although, it wasn’t until my teenage years that my faith was deepened and my relationship with Christ really became alive. Playing sports in High School really challenged my faith and drove me to a deeper relationship with Christ. I had and still have some amazing mentors and men who helped me grow in my love for Christ. I realized at about 17 years of age that I was called to serve the Church and was unfulfilled doing anything outside of that.

It has been an amazing journey serving Christ and I cannot imagine trying to do life without Him. He has blessed me and my family in so many ways I cannot even begin to count. A great life verse for me is Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.

You can keep up with Dave on his blog and via Twitter — @dave_clark.

When I first met Tom, his company, Molehill was working on a project called msites, a web-based CMS designed to be flexible, marketed with the particular needs of churches in mind. Molehill’s product line now includes an upgraded msites, Tick, a web based time tracking app, and most recently Buzzsprout, a really cool podcast publishing platform.

I’ve always been curious about Tom’s inclination toward serving the church community. Since Molehill really seems to be in the business of providing quality software to people who serve the Lord, I thought you might like to read about who Tom is and why he does what he does.

Ryan:

Tell me a little about yourself, Molehill, and your latest project, Buzzsprout.

Tom:

I’m a family guy who loves technology and loves the Church. I’ve run my own business for the last 14 years and am a firm believer in using technology to make ministry better. Several years ago I partnered up with Kevin Finn and we formed Molehill with the goal of building online software products that are easy and fun to use. Buzzsprout is a product designed to be the best way to publish, host, and promote your podcast.

Ryan:

How did you come up with the idea for Buzzsprout?

Tom:

Over the years, we’ve helped a lot of our existing msites customers (our CMS product) with podcasting. We quickly realized the process was very complicated. There were too many moving parts between formatting the content, hosting the files, building the feeds, iTunes, embedding, etc.. The existing solutions were more complicated than necessary and we were seeing people abandon the idea of publishing their audio content online because it was just too difficult. The idea began as a simple way for our msites customers to publish sermons online and as we worked through the idea, it grew into Buzzsprout. An easy-to-use one-stop solution for podcasting.

Ryan:

Why the focus on churches?

Tom:

We’ve always been passionate about building products that we enjoy. My partner and I both have experience volunteering in campus ministry where we saw first-hand the technical struggles that ministries and churches face. Our first product, msites, addresses the need for simple content management designed for non-profits and offering exceptional support to non-technical people. Many of our msites subscribers are churches and many of them struggled with podcasting. So addressing that need with Buzzsprout was a natural fit.

Ryan:

It sounds like Buzzsprout was uniquely designed to do a great job of publishing sermon audio for churches. But it’s got other uses as well – tell us about some of the unusual or distinctive podcasters that are using Buzzsprout.

Hah! Well, I will just say there are a lot of podcasts out there and they can be about anything…I mean anything. We’re just hoping that it doesn’t pose any ethical dilemmas down the road!

Ryan:

What are your other apps?

Tom:

msites is our content management system designed for churches and non-profits.

Tick is our time tracking application designed for teams like us that want to keep their projects on budget.

Buzzsprout, the best way to publish, host, and promote your podcast. And it’s pretty darn simple to use.

Ryan:

You’ve been in business for a while – do you have any words of wisdom for young entrepreneurs who are thinking of starting their own business?

Tom:

I really believe now is a great time for young entrepreneurs on the Web. I think the most important thing is to get out there and try stuff. Don’t try to do too much on your first release. Pick ONE goal that you can do really well and that you believe people will pay for. Then focus like a laser on accomplishing that one thing. Resist the urge to do what CAN be done and focus on what NEEDS to be done to achieve that one goal. You won’t get it perfect out of the gate, so don’t waste all your time trying. Focus and get something out there.

Ryan:

All this is wonderful, but without love your podcast is like a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. Tell us about your love for Christ and how you came to be a Christian.

Tom:

Oh, now that would take some time! The short version is that I never really believed in God until after college. I majored in engineering and minored in physics and astronomy. I thought I had it all figured out until I got my first engineering job and some of the guys started to ask me questions that I really couldn’t answer. I actually found Christ as I was researching how I could prove these guys were denying what I had come to believe as scientific fact. They were really good at not allowing me to get into debate mode and just kept asking me questions that kept revealing more of what I hadn’t really thought through. It was a crazy and humbling experience that led me to eventually accept Christ and then quit my job and start my company in 1996 with the goal of impacting ministries with technology.