That’s the question on my mind after talking with over 100 SMP+ members about their marketing.

Even after I suggest doing a “micro-newsletter,” so many people still avoid it. 

You, too? Tell me why here.

One problem is the word “newsletter,” which comes with history and connotations.

“News” feels official. Journalistic, even. 

So let’s lighten it a bit.

Here’s my favorite piece of newsletter advice from my good friend, content expert and author of Everybody Writes, Ann Handley:

“It’s not about the news, it’s about the letter.”

Rather than sending a newsletter…

Think of it as sending a letter – maybe even a love letter – to your favorite prospect. Does that lighten the mental burden at all? 

Watch me reframe newsletters in our recent Office Hours for the Simplest Marketing Plan:

Sending a newsletter (or love letter) is one of the surest ways to build credibility and stay top-of-mind to your best prospects.

You might even get “newsletter magic.” ✨

That’s when someone replies “out of the blue” saying “your timing is perfect, I have a project for you…”

But here’s the thing: there is no “newsletter magic” without a newsletter!

Need a little motivation to get yours done? 

Here are some “excellent examples” of newsletters from within the Simplest Marketing Plan community.

Each of these went out after our recent Office Hours (great job, everyone)!

• Inspire - email “micro-newsletter” by Jeffrey J.
  
  
• Career corner email newsletter - by Isabeau I.
  
  
• For affluent buyers, the story is the product - by Kathryn G.
  
  
• Coffee Talk: From My Desk to Yours - email newsletter by Nanette A.
  
  
• The Real Cause of Decision Fatigue Isn't Too Many Decisions—It's Too Few Filters - by StacyLynn S.
  
  
• Is Your Content Pink? - by Amy O.
  
  
• TRUST FIRST - by Dona S.

Some are longer, some are shorter. 

There’s no right way – but there is one rule: Don’t overthink it.

By the way, if you need an ongoing push to get your marketing done, get this year’s Simplest Marketing Plan - and join us in our monthly Office Hours gatherings all year long. Join here for just $197.

Thanks for reading.

So today’s episode is from the best part of the Simplest Marketing Plan: the monthly Office Party, where 100 creative pros from my community come together, to gather and to make new business friends.

It’s a very interactive (and really fun) session where I set the tone and the topic, and then everyone shares their wins and their struggles, what’s working (and what’s not) in their marketing right now.

The topic for March is email newsletters and my pressing question is"

What’s the big deal about email newsletters?

Because honestly, an email newsletter – a.k.a. content marketing – is one of the most effective marketing tools you can use -- and often leads to “newsletter magic.”

But so many creatives avoid it.

Why?

That’s what I want to know.

And more important, how can I help change the way you think about it, so that you will do it. Then you will have newsletter magic too.

Because, as I said in this session,

There is no newsletter magic without a newsletter.

Makes sense, right?

Then listen here and learn…

If you want your own invitation to the next Office Hours, check out The Simplest Marketing Plan.

...and yet they remain one of the most powerful marketing tools available.

Indeed, if I did nothing else to market my business, I would send out my Quick Tips regularly.

Why?

Because my email newsletter is, hands down, my most powerful and most effective marketing tool.

Why?

Because it allows me to speak directly to you, my people, with my voice. And that builds trust. And that way, when you're ready, you just may think of me when you need help getting better clients with bigger budgets. 

That's why Episode 547 is a re-release of one of my favorite episodes of the Marketing Mentor Podcast, with one of my favorite guests, the one and only, Ann Handley, Chief Content Officer at MarketingProfs and author of Everybody Writes.

Ann is the one who said my very favorite thing about newsletters – that it should be more letter than news. And she practices what she preaches, through her own fortnightly newsletter. (Mine is also fortnightly, which is the perfect frequency, if only because we get to use the word fortnightly!)

In this episode, Ann shares her secrets for how to create email newsletters that people actually look forward to opening — the kind that build trust, strengthen relationships and keep you top of mind with your prospects.

If you’ve ever wondered:

• What makes a newsletter worth reading?

• How do you find your voice in email?

• What should you actually include in a newsletter?

• How often should you send one?

• How do you keep it interesting over time?

I just love how Ann shares practical ideas and examples you can start using immediately. So please do!

Here are a couple #excellentexamples of first "inaugural" issues of micro-newsletters that I shared in the March 2026 Office Hours for the Simplest Marketing Plan: 

1. The Clarity in Care Report (LinkedIn)
2. The Lift Brief LinkedIn (LinkedIn) 
3. Connection: No One Wants Their Face Smushed (MailChimp)

Don't forget to subscribe to any or all of these.

And if you are one of the many who keep putting off starting a newsletter — or reviving one you abandoned — you know who you are! -- I do hope this episode is the push you need.

Remember: marketing works when you do it right, and a newsletter is one of the simplest ways to stay visible and nurture relationships with the people who may one day become your clients.

So listen here and learn: 

And when you do publish your newsletter, be sure to add me to your list. One day I just may use it as an #excellentexample!

And if this is the year you stop starting over, be sure you’re signed up for my Quick Tips because you won’t want to miss what’s new in the Simplest Marketing Plan. 

You know I hate hype. And I don’t hang around people who make hyped-up income claims.

So when my friend, a costume designer I met 40 years ago, told me she made $100k in 20 minutes, my ears perked up.

It was very out of character for her - as it is for me to say this to you! 

But when she explained what happened, I realized she was describing something I call compounding.

And it was the perfect example of my new favorite tagline: "It's not a pipe dream if you have a pipeline.

You see, my friend has been building her network and refining her expertise for over 40 years.

She now has one very big customer – a company you’d surely recognize – and for one of their very popular shows, this company orders more than 50 pieces of one garment at a time.

She takes the order, writes the specs, tells her team what to knit, and collects the money.

Each garment costs $1,800, so you do the math!

“My ship came in!” she told me.

No, I thought - that’s compounding.

You may think of compounding in financial terms: when your money earns money over time. 

You don’t just grow what you put in, you grow the growth.

But compounding applies to marketing, too…

Each small marketing action you take makes the next one easier and more effective. Each one reinforces all the actions that came before it.

In fact, everything compounds – your actions, your network, even trust in you and what you do.

So we could say that compounding is the antidote to feast-or-famine – but only if you keep doing your marketing.

How do you keep doing your marketing, even when you don’t “feel like it”?

Rather than relying on willpower, you need a plan made up of things you will actually do.

Small daily, weekly, and monthly actions. Or what I am calling for 2026, your "micro-marketing plan."

In the next Quick Tip, I’ll spell it all out for you, so stick around!

Watch me expound on compounding in the “Best Bits” from our last “Office Hours” for the Simplest Marketing Plan here:

Then check out the amazing sketch of our session by the fabulous Antonio Meza:

And before I go, I just had to share this comment from a brand new Simplest Marketing Plan member:

Congratulations on your potential new client, Evelyn!

There’s still time to get this year’s Simplest Marketing Plan - and join us in our monthly Office Hours gatherings all year long. Join here.

That’s all for today. Thanks for reading.

Episode 546 of the Marketing Mentor Podcast is for you. 

I'm doing something a little different…today’s episode is a live recording from my Fill My Client Pipeline Crash Course.  

You see, I realized late last year that the creative freelancers in my community who were killing it during what was a difficult and challenging year for almost everyone – the ones who had the best projects and the most reliable income were, not surprisingly, the ones with a pipeline.

So I decided to make that my mission for 2026: to teach everyone – and that includes you! – how to build that pipeline!

I gave a 4 day Bootcamp attended by more than 500 creative freelancers. For those who couldn't make it, I did a 30 minute crash course version – that’s this recording – where I explain:

• Who belongs in your pipeline (and who doesn't)...

• Where to find your best prospects...

• What to say to them so you don't feel awkward, salesy, or pushy…

• And how to stay top-of-mind so they reach out when they’re ready!

So listen here (and below) and learn. 

This is all the foundation for my 2026 Simplest Marketing Plan Plus (SMP+) Program. So if you want help filling your pipeline, check it out.

If you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

Maybe, "How are you using AI?" is a better question? 

These days there’s a lot of sharing about how each of us is using AI to do things we never could have done before, including in our personal lives.

Often the response is, “Wow, I never thought of that!”

So I want to share more often and more publicly -- and who best to do that with than my good friend, Terri Trespicio?

So today we hopped on to share a few things we’ve each done that you may want to try for yourself.

So listen here and below: 

I do hope you’ll try a few of those ideas. And be sure to share the creative ways you’re using AI with me. 

And if this is the year you stop starting over, be sure you’re signed up for my Quick Tips because you won’t want to miss what’s new in the Simplest Marketing Plan. And I’ll see you next time.

...and I’ve heard all the complaints! 

Your feed is filled with braggarts.

All you get is one measly reaction to a post you spent hours (or days) on.

Worse, you have a feeling your posts aren’t even being seen by the people in your network.

Don’t be depressed! my guest on Episode 544 of the Marketing Mentor Podcast is Lynnaire Johnston, author of "Link∙Ability," the book and the podcast!

She has solutions to all of these problems. In this brand new episode, Lynnaire shared: 

• How not to get dropped by LinkedIn

• Which metrics to pay attention to and…

• the one thing you should be doing instead of posting

So listen here (and below):

So, if you want my help, make sure you’re signed up for my Quick Tips, because you won’t want to miss what’s new in the Simplest Marketing Plan. 

I’m especially excited about the completely new and reimagined SMP+ program – because this is the year you stop starting over, and when you go from stop and go to steady flow.

And if you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

What about when you get ghosted by a contractor you’ve hired for a project?

And what about when you encounter a big problem that puts you behind schedule and you can’t bring yourself to tell your client there’s a problem? 

Most of us have to learn these lessons from real and often painful experience.

But you could actually learn from this week’s Episode #543 of the Marketing Mentor Podcast. 

My guest, Amy Weiher of Weiher Creative, has made them and lived to write about them in her new book, Good Work, Practical Advice for Starting & Scaling Your Creative Freelance Business.

It’s all based on her more than 20 years running her small graphic design firm.

So listen here (and below):

And if you want my help, make sure you’re signed up for my Quick Tips because you won’t want to miss what’s new in the Simplest Marketing Plan.

In fact, I’m super excited about the improvements we’re making to the SMP+ program – because this is the year you stop starting over, and when you go from stop and go to steady flow. 

Is that what you need?

And if you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

Even though I bought the good stuff. And all evening I kept thinking about pouring myself a glass…

But then I thought about Future Ilise. And about you, actually!

I thought, “Tomorrow I want to feel good. I want my first Quick Tip of 2026 to make an impact. And for that, I need my head to be clear.” 

So instead, I savored a piece of dark chocolate and a book. 🍫

Then, I spent New Year’s Day working - yes! Because I wanted to.

Because I am so excited about our new Fill Your Client Pipeline Bootcamp that I couldn't wait to get up and write this very email message. 

That’s how much I love marketing my business - and helping you learn to love marketing yours.

Skipping the champagne was a moment of clarity. Which is fitting…

Because to me, 2026 is “The Year of Clarity and Action.”

No big resolutions. No more waiting to feel “ready.” Just knowing what to do - and doing it.

One "baby step" at a time.

Because that’s what builds a business you can depend on.

And I’ve seen proof of it again and again this past year.

Take freelance ghostwriter, Tina Matras. 

Tina was laid off from her big corporate job in 2021, while caring for her elderly father.

Since his care required so much of her time - time she wanted to devote to him - she needed something more flexible than another corporate job.

She’d already been a writer in her previous job. Maybe freelancing was the answer…

But her business didn’t “take off” the way she’d hoped. For 18 months, she floundered, volunteering here and there.

She was marketing herself a little, at random.

But she didn’t really know what to do. As many people do at first, she was wasting time on things that didn’t work. She spent months trying to choose a niche. And not landing any paid clients.

One day, she happened upon a course of mine and heard me talk about “baby steps.”

Intrigued, she joined my Simplest Marketing Plan Plus (SMP+) program at the start of 2025, and got something she didn’t know she needed…

Clarity.

She told me:

“Each baby step I took gave me clarity on the next step. That’s what finally helped me build my business.”

By implementing small actions, Tina naturally identified the kind of writer she wanted to be - and who she wanted to serve. 

That’s when things started to work.

Watch her share exactly how things started to finally work:

And now things are really falling into place for Tina! Stay tuned for Part 2 of her story next week…

If you are starting this year thinking:

• “I don’t know where to focus.”
• “I do some marketing… then stop.”
• “I just want to know what actually works.”

I’d love you to join my Fill My Client Pipeline Bootcamp.

It’s Feb 9-12 - and it’s FREE to attend.

Save your seat here.

Over four days, I’ll help you:

• Get clear on who to focus on...
• Know what to do (without overwhelm)...
• And understand how little is actually enough to build momentum...

No champagne required!

Just clarity, one small action at a time.

👉 Save your free seat here

Hope you can make it!

To kick off the 18th (!) year of the Marketing Mentor Podcast, Episode 542 is a conversation with one of my favorite clients, Florian Schleicher, a marketing strategist who has been running Future Strategies only 4 years now and is already, as we say, crushing it. 

How? 

Clarity.

This chat is also a two-year check-in on how his business has evolved since we last spoke in November 2023 (Episode 487 -- listen here).

Today, Florian walks us through his four-year journey from the startup-focused consultant he was then, to the clear, confident corporate strategist he has become—sharing one milestone from each year along the way. 

He shared exactly how he shifted his target market—what he stopped doing, how he changed his messaging, and how he evaluated every touchpoint through the lens of his long-term goals.

Among other things, we talked about:

• The feast-or-famine moment that led him to invest in coaching with me and then launch his podcast (one element of his content marketing strategy) 
• The newsletter he started -- just to stay busy but which has since become a powerful content marketing (and thought leadership) tool
• The Pulse, a marketing trend report (another element of his content marketing strategy) that solidified his credibility with corporate leaders
• The solo offsite retreat he took, where Florian got clear on clarity! He asked himself, “What do I want my audience to feel about me and my brand?” For him, the answer was "clarity," which is now the underlying message woven throughout all his marketing.
  

I just love how intentional Florian has been about building relationships in his market.

Of course, we talked about his content marketing strategy and how he uses social media and podcasts as relationship-builders. We even got into his experience with imposter syndrome. (Yes, he's struggled with it too!)

This conversation is a great reminder that sustainable success isn’t about hacks or hustle; it’s about being steady, being focused and showing up long enough for the right people to be ready.

So listen here (and below) -- and be sure to listen all the way to the end when we share a peek into how Florian will be more involved with the Simplest Marketing Plan for 2026.

P.S. Giving you access to more expert coaches like Florian is just one of the many ways we’re making the SMP+ program even better in 2026 – because this is the year you stop starting over, when you go from stop and go to steady flow.

So if that resonates with you, just sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor and you’ll hear all about it very soon.

Transcript of Episode 542 with Florian Schleicher

Ilise: Hello, Florian, welcome back to the podcast.

Florian Schleicher: Hi, Ilise—so good to be back.

Ilise: Right? It was two years ago—almost exactly—November 2023, when we recorded our first episode. So let’s see how far you’ve come and what you’ve been doing. But first, as usual, please introduce yourself.

Florian Schleicher: Yes—my name is Florian. I’m a marketing strategist, and my heart beats for sustainability. I’ve been working in marketing for the past 17 years—big corporations like McDonald’s, NGOs like Greenpeace, and I was Head of Marketing at a startup. Four years ago, I started my own business, and now I do consulting and strategy for corporates.

Ilise: Okay—let’s just focus on your elevator pitch for a second. You just said…

Florian: You just said…

Ilise: So now you do strategies… for corporates? Is that what you said?

Florian: Yes.

Ilise: And you’ve been in business four years. I’m sure I asked you this in the first episode, but let’s ask again: why did you start your own business? What prompted you?

Florian: Yeah, so… I think for me, it was a moment when I was working at an agency—my first job—and I met a freelancer working for the agency. I was struck by his approach to work. He had built his own business, and I wanted to do that back then.

But I was still rather young, didn’t have enough gray hair, so I decided it wasn’t the right time. Still, I always had it in the back of my head.

Then when I finished my last job at Too Good To Go—an app against food waste—where I was Head of Marketing, I felt: this is the best time to start. We built amazing brand awareness in Austria, in Vienna, where I’m based. Every tenth person had downloaded the app. We won a couple of marketing awards, too—so there was good traction, which helped me get a good start in my business.

And what I liked most—what always fascinated me—was choosing the clients I work with, choosing the people I work with, and having the freedom to follow my passions on whatever projects I want to create, instead of being bound by corporate structures.

Ilise: And that’s the dream, right? That gets sold to a lot of people who want to freelance or go out on their own. But very few people—based on my experience, and I’ve been doing this for almost 40 years—very few people actually achieve that. And it seems like—tell me if I’m wrong—but it seems like you have, in four years, managed to achieve that?

Florian: I think so, yes. And I hear from other freelancers and entrepreneurs that it’s very hard. And don’t get me wrong—it is hard.

Ilise: It is.

Florian: A lot of hard work. You have to get up every day and try to be a little better than yesterday. You have to have a vision for where you want to take this.

And sometimes it’s also luck—meeting the right person at the right time. Like: I met a client I worked with at McDonald’s in a previous job. She moved to another company. I moved on too, and now I’m self-employed. Then I met her again—at a playground—a year ago, just by chance. And she said, “Oh, I’ve heard what you’re doing. I’m thinking about a project—should we do something together?” That was luck: right time, right place.

But yes—it’s hard work.

And of course, network. Having worked in the field a long time, meeting amazing people—it helps now to approach them and stay in touch.

It feels like a good point. And I always appreciate talking about it because it reminds me: I built this, and it works.

Ilise: Yeah. So let’s talk about the evolution over the four years. I know you have a milestone for each year, which I want to hear about. But you didn’t start out focusing on the corporate market, right?

Florian: No. At the beginning, I was fresh off Too Good To Go, which is a startup, and I thought: I want to work with startups. That was my most recent touchpoint. I reached out to many startups—they knew who I was, they knew the brand. They wanted to get their brand and marketing engine going similarly. So I focused a lot on startups and also solopreneurs in the beginning.

Florian: In my first year—this was my first milestone—summer of 2022, I started writing a newsletter. Not because I thought it would become an amazing tool to acquire business later. The reason was: I was not sold out. I had a lot of time—first year. I wanted to keep myself busy, and I always enjoyed writing.

So I thought: maybe I’ll just start a newsletter. I checked today: it has 1,800 readers—from Bangkok to Amsterdam to Vancouver. It’s gone international. Mostly marketing people read it. And now, three years later, it actually helps me acquire new business.

That was year one.

Florian: In the second year, I realized: the beginning was still good, and then it went down. I felt existential fear—like many entrepreneurs and freelancers do. What you always say—feast to famine—that’s what I experienced. There were times with a lot of work, and then I crashed, and then nothing happened.

I thought: I have two options. Option one: keep the money I’ve made as close as possible and just try to get through it. Option two: invest my money into learning something.

I was listening to a lot of podcasts, and I think it was Jenny Blake’s podcast—

Ilise: Yep. Where I also listened to an interview she did with you.

Florian: —and I thought: “A marketing mentor”—that’s what I’m looking for. I reached out to you, and that was the highlight of my second year: having a couple of sessions with you.

Getting an outside perspective, being challenged, getting new ideas. For example, you pushed me to do a podcast. Now I have, I think, 40 or 50 episodes—and it’s become a driver for my business.

So that was year two.

Florian: In the third year, I felt like the basis was working. I had a mix of corporates and startups and solopreneurs. No feast and famine anymore—more balanced.

But I still felt: what can I do to reach the next stage? So I went on a solo off-site. I went to Norway for a week by myself, with about 40 questions I asked myself each evening at dinner about my business.

I thought about: where do I want to take this? And I figured out I want to focus more on corporates—there are interesting challenges there. It’s easier once you’re in—you can work with several departments. The challenges are more diverse than with startups and entrepreneurs. And what I enjoy most is doing workshops.

So in year three, I changed the focus—fully committed to working with corporates. It also made my communication easier, because I didn’t have to speak to three different audiences.

Ilise: But just focus on one.

Florian: Exactly.

Florian: And now I’m in my fourth year. My highlight this year was writing my first marketing trend report—about a topic that’s followed me for months. It’s been read over 3,000 times now.

Ilise: By a lot of leaders in marketing and communications.

Florian: And it’s become a source of people reaching out to me, wanting my perspective. I’m very happy with how it evolved.

Would I change things if I did it all over again? Yes, of course—but that’s always hindsight. At each point, it felt like the right decision, and it worked out.

Ilise: That’s awesome. And I think I said this in the first podcast, too: you’re one of those clients who, when we first met, I gave you a little direction and you took the ball and ran with it—which is unusual, but I love it. Because marketing works when you do it, and you are really doing it.

And I want to dig into some of the tools you mentioned. But first: a lot of people have questions about shifting or narrowing their market. When you decided to focus on corporates, I’d love to hear: how exactly did you shift? What did you stop doing? You said it was easier to message to one audience than three—how did that show up specifically?

Florian: Let’s look at my channels. In the newsletter, I used to write for three audiences: simple things solopreneurs could use, advice for startups, and occasionally strategic content suitable for corporates.

So I skipped all the freelancing/entrepreneurial stuff and focused on: what would a Chief Marketing Officer or Head of Marketing be looking for? I lost some readers—but it helped narrow it to my audience.

Another thing: I stopped going to events where I knew my target audience wouldn’t be present. I also skipped speaking at startup events—even though it brought in a bit of money—because I knew it wasn’t helping me build the business I want.

I looked at all the touchpoints: my website, what I write there, what I write on LinkedIn, who I reach out to. I kept re-evaluating: will this help me build a track record with corporates or not?

And it worked. It’s still a journey—I’d still like two or three more corporate clients. But at the beginning of 2025, my goal was to bring in new corporate clients.

I structure goals in three levels:

• Small success: 1 new corporate client

• Medium success: 2 new corporate clients

• Epic success: 3 new corporate clients

And now—almost at the end of the year—I acquired three new corporate clients. So it’s been a full success. It’s satisfying: you set out to do something, you do the hard work, you change the things, and then you see: it works.

Ilise: Okay, now part of me wants to ask: what are your three levels of goals for 2026? Do you know yet?

Florian: Not yet. I always write three goals, and each has three levels.

My first goal was what I called “corporate success.” Second was “financial relief”—not thinking about money all the time, building a more robust buffer, building a more consistent stream of monthly income. And the third goal was qualitative: finding and spending time with people who live the lifestyle I want—people who help me grow, inspire me, and challenge me.

Ilise: Nice. I love that. I want to borrow it.

Florian: Because I really feel the more you surround yourself with people who are on the same level—or slightly above—in an area you want to grow, the more you will grow.

I met amazing new people this year who inspired me and were there for me. For that, I’m deeply thankful.

Ilise: I love that—especially the people part. Because when it comes to freedom: yes, financial freedom is important and helpful. But the freedom to spend time—because time is really all we’ve got—with people who help us grow, and who bring out the best in us… that’s the ultimate freedom to me.

Florian: And that’s also not easy. What I saw over the last four years is that with some people I started this journey with, we’re not on the same level anymore—

Ilise: Clients or colleagues?

Florian: In terms of where our businesses are. And I like to call myself an entrepreneur, not a freelancer. For me, an entrepreneur builds a business, whereas a freelancer works project to project.

Some people are still freelancers. And I don’t get as much out of meeting with them anymore. The hard part is saying no to some people—because you can’t just let new people into your life forever and keep all the old ones. You have to restructure.

I’m a big believer—and I tell my clients this whenever they want to start something new—ask: What are you willing to let go of? You can’t just add and add and add. You need to let go of some things.

Ilise: Okay, now I have two thoughts. One is about when you shifted your content focus. And I want to talk about your content marketing because you do a lot of awesome content marketing.

Florian: Thank you.

Ilise: When you shifted the focus, you got rid of things that weren’t what corporate marketing leaders need to hear or want to know. So it makes me want to ask: what do they need to hear and want to know?

Florian: First: they have super busy lives. They’re at the top of their careers. They get thousands of emails and tons of outreach from freelancers and companies that want to work with them.

So I always try to add value to their work. I don’t reach out saying, “Hey, do you want to work on a project?” or “Here’s something I created—don’t you want it?” Instead, I give them tools, questions, and thoughts that I would’ve liked to get when I was a marketing leader.

So number one: always add value.

Second: build long-term relationships. It’s still a people business. I’m under no illusion that I’m the best strategist available, but the people who work with me want to work with me. So I need to show them who Florian is.

I have two content categories:

1. Educational/inspiring: deep dives, frameworks, showcasing work

2. Entertainment: how I approach work, highlights, what frustrates me, what doesn’t work

That entertainment part gives an emotional layer and shows I’m a human being. Some leaders won’t enjoy it, but others feel a connection—like, “Okay, this is someone I’d like to work with.”

Then from there: build the relationship, meet people, talk.

And the challenge—if you have a consulting/service business—you need endurance. It’s a marathon. Some clients I work with now, I first had contact with two years ago. You show up, build trust, and at some point—as you like to say—they’ve marinated enough in the content that they think, “Okay, now I’m ready. I want to work with you.”

That requires trust. And the entertainment/social part—plus showing up and showing my face—really matters.

Ilise: That’s a nice segue into social media. Tell me your social media strategy.

Florian: Should I talk about LinkedIn or Instagram? They’re different.

LinkedIn: my strategy has shifted. The problem with social media is I don’t think it’s social anymore—it’s algorithmic media. The algorithm decides what gets pushed out. So on LinkedIn, I have to provide more entertaining content than inspirational content, because the algorithm punishes me for just posting deep dives.

People want pictures. They want people smiling into the camera, or a certain mood in their eyes.

So whenever I post, I think: what photo of me will work with this? Then the algorithm pushes it further, and I add the value in the text.

I’ve tested a lot. For me, videos don’t work as well on LinkedIn. Photos of me—looking into the camera, or in action on a stage or in a workshop—work better, with value in the caption.

Instagram: I do more videos—short snippets of inspiration. It’s a bit more clickbaity, because that’s the language of the channel. I aim for about 50% video and 50% carousel or photo that adds value.

And one learning from the past year: I have one Instagram channel that’s both personal and private. So when I go on vacation or do something fun, it’s up there too. If you follow me, you’re up for all of it.

Ilise: And you’re saying that works? Or would you do it differently?

Florian: It works—and it was a big learning. In my second year I was thinking: where do I separate work-self and private-self? With a job, you shut the laptop and you’re off. Now I think about work all the time—because it’s my business, I’m involved, and I like it.

But what I learned is: I had to become one person. In business conversations, I bring my private side. In private conversations—even on a date—I’m also the entrepreneur. My Instagram reflects that. It’s not for everyone. If you want highly polished posts, my channel probably isn’t for you. But for people reaching out and coming back to me, it works.

Ilise: Beautiful. All right—let’s talk about your podcast. And then, to wrap up, we can give listeners a question or two to reflect on for next year, so they can move in the direction you have, if they want to.

What I find interesting about your podcast is: your prospects are the guests. You’re doing it for the prospects and the conversations—not for how many people listen, right? What’s the strategy?

Florian: The strategy is… first: my podcast focuses on sustainability and how to communicate about it. That’s my passion. I want to provide a stage for companies doing something good in sustainability—to share their message so others can learn.

I invite companies and people I find fascinating. And in the end, my goal is the same: build relationships.

I had a case where I interviewed a marketing leader two years ago. We stayed in touch because we had a great conversation. We had virtual coffees afterwards. And then two years later she asked, “Hey, I’m working on this project—would you be the right person to work with?” And I said yes. And I’m traveling to the company next week for a full-day workshop.

I don’t want this to sound like my plan is always to turn guests into clients. Sometimes you realize: interesting company, but we don’t vibe personally. Other times, you meet someone and it’s like, “We could talk for hours.” So let’s do this.

I never push anything. But the relational part matters. For me, the podcast is a way to open a door—and then we’ll see where it takes us.

Ilise: I love that. All right—we could go on for hours, but we’ll have to do another episode.

Since it’s the end of one year and the beginning of another, let’s give listeners a question or two. From your 40 questions in Norway—what’s one of the most effective?

Florian: One of the best questions—and I use it a lot in workshops—is: What do you want your audience to feel about you and your brand?

We’re so in our heads. We think: “This is the message, this is my positioning.” But we’re emotional beings. It’s more important to leave an impression as a feeling.

So I ask myself: what feeling do I want to evoke with my whole marketing strategy? With one Instagram post? When I go to an event?

And even when I meet someone on the way to a meeting, I think: what do I want them to leave the conversation feeling?

Just one feeling—not a lot. One.

Ilise: Because then we get confused and overwhelm the other person. It’s really just one thing.

Florian: Exactly. One feeling.

Ilise: Then I have to ask you: what’s the feeling you want people to get from your brand?

Florian: Clarity.

Because there’s so much information out there. I work with amazing people with great strategies—but what gets lost is clarity: What are we doing? Why are we doing it? How are we doing it? That’s what I want to give my clients.

Ilise: And that begs one final question: do you ever struggle with imposter syndrome?

Florian: I haven’t met a really intelligent person who doesn’t struggle with imposter syndrome. If I meet someone who doesn’t have it, I get cautious. So yes, I struggle with it.

When I published my first trend report, I was like: will anybody read my thoughts? It’s 75 slides. It doesn’t follow a structure I copied—it’s my own findings and examples of brands using the insights.

Sometimes when amazing people invite me to speak, my first thought is: why are they inviting me?

Then I give the talk or do the project, and afterwards they say, “This was great.” And I have to remind myself—that’s where the voice gets a little quieter. I don’t think it goes fully away, but it gets quieter.

Ilise: Right. And I asked because listeners might assume you’ve done all these amazing things, had success quickly, and therefore… you don’t have that problem.

Florian: No, I do. I do.

Ilise: I feel like a lot of people do.

Florian: It’s natural.

Ilise: How about you, Ilise—do you struggle with imposter syndrome?

Ilise: Not anymore. I used to, for sure—but I was kind of arrogant and cocky, and if it was a problem I didn’t pay attention. I was like, “I don’t care. I’m doing it anyway.”

So it didn’t get in my way. And over the years, at a certain point—when you get to be a certain age—you’re like, who cares anyway? I don’t care what those people think. I’ve got so many options.

That’s why I always say: marketing is the solution. Because if you have many irons in the fire, what one person thinks doesn’t matter. If one client fires you, it doesn’t matter. You know how to go get more. It’s fine.

So hearing that won’t cure everyone, but the hope is: the more practice we get, the more mature we get, the older we get—some combination—the more we can relax. Because the problem with psychological baggage is it becomes an obstacle to doing what needs to be done. And then you can’t achieve success.

Florian: Yeah—when you get into freeze mode, or flight mode. Bridging that gap is just doing it. Learn on the way. And every negative feedback is just a data point: for this specific example, this did not work.

Ilise: Exactly.

Ilise: Beautiful. That “data point” is the perfect bookmark. We will definitely continue this conversation.

And I’ll reveal right now: you’ve agreed to be one of our coaches for S&P Plus in 2026—so more coming soon. A little cliffhanger.

Florian: I’m super excited to be part of this.

Ilise: Of course. I think you’ll be perfect for it. In the meantime, tell people where they can find you online.

Florian: You can find me on LinkedIn—my name will be in the description, because my last name is Schleicher and it’s difficult to pronounce. You can also go to future-strategies.com—my website—where you can find my newsletter, my podcast, and all the work I do, and get an impression of how I approach what I do.

Ilise: Beautiful. And you mean “future hyphen strategies,” right? “Minus” is the same thing, but we don’t say it that way—just so everyone understands.

Florian: Then let’s use the hyphen, yes.

Ilise: Great. Florian, thank you so much—and I’ll talk to you soon.

Florian: Let’s do that. Thank you for having me.

Ilise: Of course.

And still others, who've been marketing themselves all along, had a "banner" year - like my friend and Simplest Marketing Plan coach, Andy Brenits, of Brenits Creative.

Andy's celebrating a decade in of self-employment this year. And he's always looking for smart ways to streamline his marketing and workflow. 

His "Year by The Numbers" post is filled with tips & insights you can borrow to use in your own business in 2026.

Here's an excerpt:

I last wrote my year-end recap in December 2019. It was, by all accounts, a good year. Then, in March 2020, everything shut down due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

While my business grew that year, due in part to a wave of new solopreneurs navigating layoffs, furloughs, and unexpected pivots, I knew many businesses were struggling. Writing a celebratory “by the numbers” post at the end of 2020 didn’t sit right with me, so I stopped.

2025 feels like the right time to bring it back. Though it was another banner year for me, I’m still hearing about small businesses struggling. My hope is that this is seen as nothing more than insight, perspective, and inspiration.

And so, encouraged by my business coach, Ilise Benun, and inspired by Deidre Rienzo’s long-running “By the Numbers” posts, I’m returning to this format with a fresh perspective. It won’t be another five years before I write the next one. I plan to do this again next December. Who knows, maybe there will even be a mid-year check-in.

Read the rest on Andy's blog here.

The only thing I could think of? Dogs.

So I created a Rover profile, and started dog sitting. The joy is, as you would expect, off the charts. I’ve also made a little extra cash, which feels like fun money to be spent on fun things, like Thai lunch and pedicures and lip gloss. 

But if you’re wondering about my copywriting business, as I’ve shared in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, and 2024, here is my (more unhinged than ever!) 2025 by the numbers. Won’t you join me down the rabbit hole? 

Here’s my current work-landscape: 

AI and the uncertainty it’s posing. A husband recovering from spine surgery and a need to financially make more (and pay for health insurance) while he’s readjusting to his new body, capabilities and job prospects. I mean, I’ve always been transparent with my posts — why stop now?! (Excuse me, I see an em-dash, this must be AI-written!)

The money situation: 

I have always prioritized balance, life-joy, and working with nice people over making money. I have worked to maximize my time, and have never worked 40 hours a week. Over the years, I’ve talked about money with a curtained approach. I don’t have the energy; I’m tired of complicated. 

• Most years I’ve made around 60k.

• The most I’ve ever made was 70k (and that felt like a cap, where I would have needed to 1) work to a point of burnout, or 2) raise my rates to a place I didn’t think my ideal clients could afford, in order to make more). 

• Last year I made about 38k, which scared me a lot. Up until then, I always knew there was more work available if I wanted it. Now, it feels like the well has run dry. 

• This year, I made 50k in my business (but only because of an unusually-big project). 

So, without further ado:

• Years in business — 19 (Will I make it to 20? 😂 We shall see!) 

• Total clients — 16

• Clients / partners who are designers or agencies — 9

• Client websites written — 1 (and she’s an absolute beauty, thanks to Jill Anderson, WordPress wizardess). This is where I’ve previously made most of my income. In 2022, I wrote 17.

• Client blogs + newsletters + case studies written — 30+ 

• Cheap landing pages written — 100+ (I’ve learned all I can, and my bandwidth for this kind of thing is now depleted.)

• Clients for whom I write monthly newsletters, case studies or blog posts — 4

• Un-newsletter subscribers (up 33 from last year) — 1108

• Un-newsletters sent — just one (That’s 91 since I started, also posted here.) 

• 20+ — messaging guides I’ve written to guide content before AI gets involved (And yes, this totally results in much better words.) 

• Times someone has paid me to exercise — 15 and counting! (Thanks, dogs!) 

• Amount of work I want to do if my heart’s not in it — ZERO. 

• How convinced I am that AI is capable of zapping our humanity, making us all sound the same, and taking over everything online — 200%  

• Times I’ve gone on LinkedIn and absolutely hated it for a bajillion reasons — all of them! (Robert Lodi, you are not one of these reasons; your content is a delight.) 

• Times I’ve watched my friend Tara’s Christmas reel starring her dog, Ollie — 50+

• Reduction in one agency’s budget as they said, “Use AI more, take less time.” — 90%

• Amount of work expected within the same timeframe (from another agency I work with) — 2x

• Times using more AI, more quickly, created generic content — Both of the above!

• Times I’ve seen AI telling someone who they are without them even realizing it — So many! If we don’t tell AI who we are, it’s going to tell us. That is (unpopular opinion alert!) precisely why I don’t use AI for brainstorming.

• Days I’ve used AI to help me — Most! I’m finding ways to put it into my workflow that feel beneficial, but I also dislike it. (Can something be useful and awful at the same time?) 

• Side jobs I’ve gotten outside of writing — 1. I’m doing some accounting work; it’s meditative and provides steady additional income, which right now, feels like hitting the freaking lottery. (I’ve had a screaming urge to diversify over the past year, because I’ve never felt so uncertain about my prospects of making money.)

• Payment for my biggest project ever — 15k. (It was through an agency, for a very big company, and every time I tried to veer from generic AI copy, they bumped it back because they wanted to sound like their competitors, who clearly used AI to write their copy. Though a massive project money-wise, it’s probably the one I’m least proud of. 

• How much I got paid for writing 2.5 landing pages with AI (probably the smallest “project” of my career) — $42.

• Pressure I’m putting on myself to pay the bills, bills, bills — tons! And this may not shock you, but pressure-cooker Deidre isn’t my favorite version of myself. I’m trying to remember to breathe, picture abundance, and remember that total upheaval and discomfort might be a necessary part of getting somewhere new. 

• Things about my work I’m questioning — everything! At this point, anything is possible. 

Does anyone need a “writer” anymore?

People can now write (decent-enough) content themselves using AI. This is true. So where does this leave me? Someone whose opinion I really value told me: Deidre, you’ve never really been a writer. You’ve been someone who helps people feel heard and understood. Then you share that in writing. 

It really is what I’m best at; I never thought I was that good of a writer anyway. But I know I make people feel comfortable and understood. These skills don’t sound lucrative, exactly, but who knows…

Moving forward

I’d like to get paid for being a listener, a helper, a clarity-finder and a connection-creator. If I end up only getting only one good project a year, so be it. I will watch dogs and find new ways; I have the hustle to figure it out. 

Here’s what I do know: I am very clear on what brings me joy. Thrifting, plants, pets, nature, kind people, tinted lip balms, spicy fragrances (nutmeg, clove, cinnamon), a clean house, my luxury cotton bathrobe (new with tags for 6.99 at the thrift!), metallic shoes, hugs, and watching the absolute glee my 5-year-old experiences life with. 

Here’s to more joy, comfy robes, and dogs! 

What are your solutions for finding joy in a fiery world? And how are you moving into 2026?

That’s because your pipeline - and nurturing it with marketing - is essential to a thriving business.

Not sure what a “client pipeline” is, or how it’s different from your network?

Here’s the difference…

Your network is everyone you know and everyone who knows you, from colleagues, collaborators, business friends, friends-of-friends, and past coworkers, to people you’re loosely in touch with.

Your pipeline is your shortlist - the people who could realistically hire you, refer you, or open a door for you.

It’s mostly past and current clients, warm prospects you’ve been in touch with, and trusted contacts who can connect you to the right people.

When you make it a habit to regularly reach out to people in your pipeline, that’s when projects start popping up “out of the blue.”

As we approach the end of the year, the easiest way to nurture your pipeline (and even drum up year-end or Q1 projects) is to reach out to current and past clients. 

This is about building on your existing foundation, rather than starting something new.

How to nurture your pipeline today:

Send current or past clients a message to wish them happy holidays with a heartfelt “thank you.” Be specific about what you’re thankful for.

Ask if they have leftover budget they need to spend. Don’t be shy! They may need help with a last-minute or rush project.

Propose a check-in call in January, and schedule it. Keep it about them and how you can best support their goals next year.

Not sure what to say? Try this:

—

Happy Holidays, [Name]. 

I hope you’re having a wonderful winter season. 

Is December a busy or slow time for you? I just want you to know that I’m grateful for [specific thing you’re grateful for] and I’m here for you. 

If you need any year-end assistance, rush projects, or want to schedule a check-in for January to get a jump on the New Year, let me know.

Here’s my cell phone – don’t hesitate to call.

[Your Number]

Talk soon,

- Your Name

—

Including your phone number adds a personal touch that can help you stand out. Try it and let me know what happens!

Would you send a note like this, or does it feel too “pushy”? Share your thoughts here.

Watch me explain more about nurturing your pipeline in the Best Bits from our recent live Office Hours from the Simplest Marketing Plan:

That’s the message from Liz Heflin, a ghostwriter who is already almost “booked out” for 2026.

But what exactly does that mean – booked out?

In Episode 541 of the Marketing Mentor Podcast, Liz shares what she means, as well as her daily marketing habit, which is super simple.

It's essentially 2 things, that’s it.

Underneath it all is a commitment to do something every day that moves her business forward. 

That doesn’t sound complicated, right? You could do that too, right? I think so.

So listen here (and below) and learn.

Even if you struggle with imposter syndrome, just be like Liz and do something every day to move your business forward.

Because marketing works, but only when you do it! 

Listen to Liz's first appearance on the Marketing Mentor Podcast, Episode 525, "Pitching isn't that salesy": https://bit.ly/MMPodcast525

And if you want my help, make sure you’re signed up for my Quick Tips because you won’t want to miss what’s coming for 2026 in the Simplest Marketing Plan (SMP).

In fact, I’m super excited about the improvements we’re making to the SMP+ program – because this is the year you stop starting over! Don't you want to go from "stop and go" to "steady flow?"

If that resonates with you, sign up for my Quick Tips and you’ll hear all about it very soon.

And we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

Transcript of Episode 541

ilise: Hello, Liz, welcome back to the podcast.

Liz Heflin: Hello! Thank you for inviting me! I feel so honored to be invited back!

ilise: Absolutely. Well, I want you to introduce yourself first, and then we'll talk about why I invited you back.

Liz Heflin: Yeah, absolutely. So, I am Liz Heflin. I'm a freelance writer. And I basically have two arms of my business. So, I am a non-fiction full-book ghostwriter. I also have an agency around that ghostwriting business. And then I have this whole second arm where I create sources, free and paid resources for other freelance writers. So I run a community, I do coaching, I sell resources, all of those kinds of things to help people have more success in a landscape that can be really tricky.

ilise: It is tricky, and… One of the reasons I invited you back, I mean, you shared some really helpful mindset, especially perspectives, that I think everyone needs, and as I like to say, the guests I invite are people who practice what I preach, and some of those are people who work with me directly, and others are just people I've come across. And who I can see are doing marketing and it's working, and just to refresh people's memory, because we will link to the first episode we did, which was episode 525, so not too long ago, but you had pitched to me the ghostwriting agency, basically.

Liz Heflin: Right?

ilise: And, I was impressed by your pitch, and so I said, well, I don't really… have a need for that, but won't you be a guest on my podcast? And so that's why we did the first one, and recently we reconnected, and I saw, actually, I think just this past week, you posted on LinkedIn that you're booked out for 2026, and so I thought, alright, let's get her back, and see what she's doing, and, you know, what other people can do to follow in these footsteps, because, well, maybe we should talk first about how tricky the market is right now, for everyone, really. Freelancers, writers, designers, marketers, it's really for everyone. Some people are doing really well, some people are doing not well at all. So I guess I'm curious, what do you see out there first?

Liz Heflin: Yeah, I think it's foolhardy to say that the industry, the landscape, is not different than it's ever been, because it absolutely is. I've been doing this for something like 20 years. And it is the hardest landscape that I've ever navigated. But by the same token, I'm also having the best year I've ever had as a freelancer, and… I mean that financially, but I also mean it in the sense of the kinds of projects that are coming my way, or things that feel very, very aligned with what I want to be doing. So I'm booked out, not with with work that I don't care to do, but with work that I care very deeply about. So I'm personally kind of navigating both sides of this coin right now, that I feel like, yes, absolutely, it is harder to get yeses, it is harder to get answers to your proposals. It is harder to get your foot in the door, but also… the work is very much still there, so I think we kind of often get one side of that story. I think we get the doom and gloom side of it, but if people can take anything from this, I hope it's just that Yes, it's harder. Yes, you have to knock on more doors. But there are still really amazing clients on the other side of those doors. It's just a little trickier to find which doors those are.

ilise: Yeah, I know a lot of people who are doing really well feel almost ashamed of it, or kind of guilty, and I think that was part of your post also, right? I'm not bragging, but… Yes! I just want everyone to know there are good clients out there, and, you know, don't stop looking.

Liz Heflin: Yes, very, very much true. I think there's just… when you hear so many people who are hurting, and they want to be doing this thing they loved, and maybe they've been doing it successfully for many years past, and now all of a sudden, it's gotten a lot more difficult. You don't want to be tone deaf for that.

ilise: Right.

Liz Heflin: And… I don't think the answer is to stop sharing the wins, which is part of why I made that post, that public post. Because I think it's important to hear the wins as well, because if all you hear is the other side, it's really, really easy, especially when things aren't going well, to just believe that that is the full story and stop. So… You don't want it to feel like you're rubbing your nose… or rubbing somebody's nose in it, or you don't want it to feel like it's gloating, but I think it is also really important to shout from the rooftops, hey. Good things are still lining up and happening.

ilise: So, let's talk then a little bit more specifically about the fact that you're booked out for '26. Maybe you can… start by telling us what exactly that means. I mean, as a ghostwriter, what is your capacity? How do you even know what your capacity is?

Liz Heflin: Sure, yeah. So, I'm not… I'm not quite booked out. I… so I can typically… I know about myself that I can typically take about 3 books a year, if all of the stages, the interview stage, the writing phase, the editing phase, are all sort of staggered. If it all lines up like that, it can usually take about 3 a year. So I have… one that's carrying over from 2025, we'll be finishing up in February. I just booked a new one, which should take me through probably 8 to 10 months of the year, so I'm really looking to book one more. I have… three really viable proposals out in the world right now, so I'm waiting to hear if one of those comes through as a yes, and truly, truly books me out for… for the… for all of 2026. But… You know, booked out is… go ahead.

ilise: Yeah, no, I was gonna say, booked out probably what you were about to say, which is that most people, depending on what your service is, and how much it costs, and how long the sales cycle is, which I'm curious about in your situation, but you don't need hundreds of clients, right? You obviously only need 3 really good ones, and… That, I think, makes it more manageable even to think about and do the marketing for.

Liz Heflin: Absolutely. And I think that it's one of the things that I talk to a lot of people about, like, coaching and things, is you… you don't… need to get… all of these yeses. You need four, three quality yeses. And that's true whether you're booking out really big projects, like ghostwriting projects, you know, full books. Or it could just be, you know, really meaty retainers. You know, it's… it's so easy to get overwhelmed and to think, you know, I have to book myself out for the year, I have to fill all these hours. But re-shifting the lens and reframing it as you just really need a handful of great clients, and if you can you know, navigate the contract and created in such a way that those are recurring clients for you, then everything, I think, becomes a little bit easier to manage and a little bit easier to handle.

ilise: Yeah. And maybe you can talk a little bit about the sales cycle, how it happens, how long it takes, maybe even of the three proposals that you're waiting for a decision on, how did those come about? Is there one you hope more than the others will come through.

Liz Heflin: Yes? There's one in particular that I'm really crossing my fingers on. So for… so for… this is obviously going to be pretty specific to… to me and to ghostwriting, but, I have one that is… came through from a ghostwriting agency. I'm on their bench, so they have a team of writers, a group of writers. when projects come in, they just make an open call, you know, and the call goes out to how many ever people are on the bench? Hundreds, thousands. And of those people, you basically cold apply, and then there's a… there's a person who selects which… which applications go through to the next stage, where you're actually interviewing with the client. And so, in that sort of a situation, it's amazing, because the agency did all of the legwork for landing the prospect landing the job, it's just your job to win it. And you, of course, have to be happy with the rate you're making after… after their fees, because they take their cut, as they should. So that's… that's sort of one that I have on the table. That would be a very sizable contract, and a really… a very cool story. I'm obviously at liberty to share the details of that story, but, very meaningful, would help a lot of people. I would be very honored to be a part of that project. So, really crossing my fingers for that one. I have another one, which is, a very kind of… straight business book. Somebody is the CEO of a financial services company, they're looking to build a book, to create a book that builds their authority, maybe get a bit on the speaking circuit, leverage that book into, into other opportunities. And that was just an open call that they had made on LinkedIn. I reached out, we were in contact for a little bit, and this… I should preface by saying this was more than a year ago. That they made the initial call on LinkedIn. And I had been in contact with the person who was navigating the project, and I gave her my initial quote, and she said, oh, no, that's too much, and I said, no problem. And then… and then I had followed up with it a few, you know, 6 months later or something, and she said, oh my gosh, you know, we should jump on a call, and we… got on a call, and their sort of priorities had shifted, and they talked to more writers, and they kind of figured out what the pricing point should be, and so, you know, here we are, a little over a year after the initial point of contact, and it's still on the table. So, there's just…

ilise: I'll just ask you a few questions about that one.

Liz Heflin: Yeah.

ilise: So, when you say they, you know… well, first of all, the open call, is that… a LinkedIn job posting, or is that someone going into their feed and asking a question, or saying, we have this need, and anyone who sees it can respond?

Liz Heflin: In that case, it was just a post, just in your feed. Just saw it in the feed, yeah.

ilise: And do you look at the job postings on LinkedIn?

Liz Heflin: You know, I actually really don't. Not to disparage that as a tactic in any way, shape, or form, it's just not something that I do. It's much more likely for me that I'll be looking on my feed, I'll see an opportunity, and either I'm connected to that person, so I can either directly DM them, which is always great, or, you know, maybe I have a second-level connection, so there would be…

ilise: A way for me to… an easier path for me to be connected with them.

Liz Heflin: But I don't often just fully… hold scroll through the job openings. I try and come at it from at least some kind of a relationship level.

ilise: Yeah, I agree with that. I would disparage the job postings, actually, because to me, I've never actually heard of someone getting a job or a project through those job postings. They feel more like cattle calls than anything else, but… Sure. So, it's interesting, and I'm glad to hear that that was not that, that that had.

Liz Heflin: It was not that.

ilise: Okay, good. And then, so you submit your proposal with pricing, and they say, oh no, that's too much, and you say, no problem. Does no problem mean, okay, I'll lower the price, or I'll adjust the scope, or both, or what? Do you have a call with those people?

Liz Heflin: Good, really good question, yeah. So, I gave them, essentially… I didn't even get to the full proposal stage yet, because we hadn't met, I hadn't had. Got a chance. to actually talk details with them, so I gave them my minimum rate for a… for a full-length book, and they told me what theirs was, what their… the number that they were looking to pay, and we were quite far off. So, at that point, when I said no problem, what I meant was, I'm happy to open it up to the writers in… I mentioned briefly, I have this sort of agency model around my ghostwriting, so if I'm ever booked out, or if a project isn't right for me for any number of reasons, budget, or it's just out of my wheelhouse, I have a group of amazing writers who I can pull from and say, like, hey, this person would be really great for this, and I can put them forward. And then, logistically, we will run that through my agency, so I would be taking a cut of that contract for bringing the work to the… to the writer.

ilise: Right, but the fee would be lower anyway, because you're not doing it. Oops.

Liz Heflin: Correct.

ilise: But then… so, you weren't discouraged by that, by the fact that you were so far off, and you did follow up, I think you said, 6 months later, so talk about that. Like, why would you follow up if you… it didn't really seem… I mean, it seemed maybe it could be good for someone on your bench, but just the thinking behind the follow-up.

Liz Heflin: Yeah, and it's a great question. Again, I… I followed up, because I was hoping that I could get, a really good job for somebody on my bench. That was 100% the intent. The number that they threw out was very reasonable, it just didn't match with what my minimum was. But for somebody who maybe hasn't been doing it as long. It was… it wasn't pittance, you know, it was a reasonable number. So I was like, I would love, especially in this market where it's tough, I would love to give somebody a project of this scope and size. They would be thrilled. So, I followed up just hoping to… to navigate some work for somebody in… in my network. And then when the conversation picked back up, at some point, we just… when we started talking numbers, it shifted from, oh yeah, that's what we were thinking last year, but now we've talked to more people, I think the company was in a different position, and all of a sudden, I was kind of back in the running unexpectedly.

ilise: Yeah. So just the fact that that can happen, I think, is very… edifying, right, for people. a lot of people would not follow up, especially if they don't have an agency or a network of people to pass it along to, and just assume they're out of the running, but I always like to say, you never know, and you should always follow up, and I assume you agree with me about that, no matter what.

Liz Heflin: Very much.

ilise: It's fascinating that they had come to their senses, it sounds like, actually, or something had shifted, or they talked to enough people and realized, like, our number isn't high enough.

Liz Heflin: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that it's, you know, a matter of circumstance, too, just things sometimes that are totally out of your control. It was… a… not a new company, but they had gone through a massive period of growth in that interim between when I first talked to them and when I second talked to them. So, I think that they were just financially in a better spot to support a project like that, in a way that they weren't… the first time we talked.

ilise: Yeah, things take the time they take, for sure.

Liz Heflin: Yeah.

ilise: Okay, good. So, you're waiting to hear on that one, and what do you do during this waiting period? Do you continue following up? Do you just bide your time? Is there a point at which you decide, alright, I guess I didn't get it?

Liz Heflin: Yeah, I mean, I'm constantly trying to fill the pipeline, even if I'm booked out. And part of that is because I do have the agency that, you know, is a nice, nice place to put overflow contracts if and when they come. But also, because the landscape's tougher, you need to knock on more doors to get those yeses. So, I am, you know, of course, I'm also spending the time writing the contracts, the books that I have, so that takes a good chunk of my time. I'm running the community that I… that I operate, that takes a good chunk of time, but I do always make time for… networking calls, I mean, every… any given week, I'm probably talking to at least I would say between 3 and 7 people, who I think are strategic, good people to know. And, you know, maybe they run publishing houses, and sometimes they partner with ghostwriters, or maybe they're ghostwriters themselves, and they're looking to… to offer overflow contracts. Whatever the case may be. I do always make it a point to meet as many people as I can that I think are good people to know.

ilise: And I do want to get to the third one, I'm not forgetting about that, but you mentioned you're always trying to fill your pipeline, and the pipeline is actually something that we here at The Simplest Marketing Plan and Marketing Mentor are going to be super focused on helping people fill in 2026, especially. So, I'm curious, how would you define a pipeline? What is it for people who aren't really sure? And how… beyond anything you've already said, do you think about filling your pipeline? What does it mean?

Liz Heflin: Yeah, sure. I mean, I just… I think of my pipeline as kind of all of the outstanding maybes that I still have of all these prospects I've met, and it's very much a continuum, a scale here, that some, I think, are very close to ready, some, I think, are not even remotely close yet, but we've had a conversation. So it's just all of those people, wherever they are on that spectrum, of people who I think, yeah, they… they could materialize into project. So that's… that's kind of what I consider my pipeline. And I… I just make it a point to follow up with them, to nurture those relationships, even if it's just dropping them a a Happy Thanksgiving email, like, I know I'm gonna be sending a bunch of emails, you know, later today and tomorrow, of just, you know, grateful our paths have crossed, and… and just, and just… keeping those fires warm. So, it's, you know, it's not reinventing the wheel in terms of the follow-up and the nurturing. It's just… it's just kind of being a good human and keeping those people top of mind.

ilise: And how do you track all of that? Do you use a… what do they call that? A customer relationship management system? Is it just a list on a spreadsheet? What works for you?

Liz Heflin: Yeah, so I do have a CRM, but that's more for, like, the people who are on my newsletter list, the people who are in my community, the sort of traditional customers, you would say. For prospect tracking, I have a Google Sheet it's nothing fancy, other than, my husband, who is quite techy, has put some nice little custom script in there, so it will… I… I… I was just looking at my sheet yes, this morning, I should say, and… I was… I was really surprised. I was like, wow, all of these conversations and things, all this work, all this legwork, there's a good 50 people on this list of… Maybe they want a book, and you don't really realize how much it builds and how quickly it builds, but looking back, I was like, oh yeah? That was a great conversation. Oh yeah, maybe that person will be ready next year. Oh yeah, that person isn't… I know they're not there yet, but maybe they will get there. So it's, it's a… it's really a nice way to take control of your business, if nothing else. You really feel like you are steering the ship and navigating in the right direction when you can see all of these people who are potential work coming in down the line.

ilise: Yeah. You talked about… building how the relationship spilled, and that connects, in my mind, to one of the ideas we've…

Liz Heflin: And trust does not happen automatically. You don't just cold email somebody. Very rarely, I should say, do you cold email somebody? And you're just instantly… given somebody's trust. You have to earn it, and you can do that through small, consistent gestures. And it absolutely, you know, some people are going to be ready after 4 touches, some people are going to be ready after 12, whatever the number is. But the more people you have, and the more people you keep singing and following up with and developing and re-nurturing. Eventually, you know, enough of those pieces will fall into place.

ilise: Yes. Alright, so before we wrap up, let's go back to that third proposal and hear a little bit about that.

Liz Heflin: Okay, let's see, which one am I missing here? Okay, we've got… So, this is an interesting… this is a good one to talk about. This is someone who came through my LinkedIn feed. I had posted some article or piece of content, and he messaged me on LinkedIn, I'm looking for a writer who can help me out, and I immediately jumped on a call with him, you know, a few weeks later, whatnot, just to… just to say hi, and he had a crediting project, which is not something that I really do anymore, so I passed that work off to somebody in my agency. And then he had another one, and again, I passed it off, and another one, passed it off. And… the quality of work was always really high, he was always really happy with the people that I was recommending out for this work, everything was great, clients were happy, so that trust had been built, like I was saying, slowly over time, little piece, little piece, little piece. So when he had this big… ghostwriting contract, he thought to… he thought to pull me in. The guy had some questions about the process, and how ghostwriting even worked, and whether he needed one, and… and he said, would you be willing to jump on a call and just talk to this guy and answer some of his questions? And I said, absolutely. And, and here we are, waiting to see if it falls into place. But that's an interesting one, because it is a mix of showing up consistently on LinkedIn, building relationships, networking.

ilise: It's so good that you are breaking down the steps and the process for all of this stuff in your business, that's really helpful to people, because it's easy to talk in generalities and very vague terms about all of these things, but I think it's really helpful when people are as specific as you are being, so I thank you for that.

Liz Heflin: Of course, of course. I know, and especially, like, with mindset stuff, it is really easy to speak in generalities, but, you know, when you pair the mindset stuff with the nitty-gritty, I feel like that's when you really start seeing the traction, when the… when the wheels really start spinning. Okay, okay, I've got my head right. Now, what direction do I go in? Point me.

ilise: And so, I have two questions, I want to ask you before we wrap up. One is… so, you've described all of this, and I'm curious if you ever have what they call imposter syndrome that gets in the way of you taking the actions that you're obviously taking.

Liz Heflin: Yeah, you know, it is… it's funny, this is another kind of thing where you almost don't want to say it out loud because you know that it is such a prevalent problem for others. I have always been blessed with maybe an overabundance of confidence. But I've always been eminently… convinced of my ability to handle things, whatever comes my way. And I wish I had a magic wand to give that to everybody, and I wish I had a perfect understanding of how I got to that point. But, but, you know, I'm not gonna say, of course, there are times when everybody doubts themselves to some degree. But… I… I have a… a good ability to… to jump. And maybe it's jump even if you're afraid, is a good way… good way to put it. And I think that's been… it's just been huge in my business, the fact I'm able… or willing, I should say, to just… okay, just do it.

ilise: Yeah, and I think the way you framed it also is very, I don't know, positive, this idea… it's not like you can do anything, it's you can handle anything. Whatever comes, you will handle it. To me, that's what confidence is. I'm sure I can figure it out.

Liz Heflin: Yeah, very much. Yeah, no, I think… I think that's definitely a good way to frame it. I think there's a lot of power in that.

ilise: So, my second question, final question, is… so, you're booked out, or almost booked out for 2026, which is fantastic. So, what is your marketing plan for 2027? You know, is there anything different you'll be doing, or is it basically just continuing this consistency that you've already described?

Liz Heflin: Yeah, I mean, the goal, if I can say it out loud, is to keep being booked out, and to keep raising my rate, so that, you know, I can, again, work with more amazing clients, and just keep that ball rolling. And what I'll be doing to accomplish that, is what I'm doing right now. It's continuing to nurture those long-term relationships I have in my pipeline, those people who will materialize in something down the line. So, I post on LinkedIn. Monday to Friday, I do that consistently, and that's been really transformational and really important in my business. And then, those meetings with… with people who I feel are going to be good people to know. I… I did recently invest in a networking group that has really yielded some incredible relationships and some really great opportunities. So, meeting people, and just making sure that my name is out there, that people know what I do, that I'm an option for these given things, and just doing that consistently is very much part of my marketing routine.

ilise: Great. Well, I thank you again for sharing all of your wisdom and your experience, and the nitty-gritty of how you run your business. That's really helpful.

Liz Heflin: Of course. And I hope, you know, for anybody who's listening, if you are a freelance writer, or in the writing world, it's a… it's a great supportive…

ilise: Great.

Liz Heflin: community.

ilise: And that's exactly what I am trying to train people to do and to instill. So, this is kind of a perfect… I don't know, segue into the next year for me, so I don't know yet when I'm gonna publish this, but it'll be… just to start the year, I think this is a nice motivational episode. So, again, I thank you, Liz. Tell the people where they can find you and your community online.

Liz Heflin: Of course, yeah, so you can always find me on LinkedIn, that's it's just Liz Heflin. If...

I took a poll in our recent Office Hours for the Simplest Marketing Plan, and it turns out…

If your answer is “kind of,” you’re in good company.

Out of 44 people, only 2 said they’re “religious” about their marketing. 

And 16 admitted to not having a habit at all.

I’m not surprised - after all, for nearly 40 years I’ve been helping creatives fill their client pipelines. So I know what it takes. 

The top reasons you might have a hard time building a marketing habit are:

• You’re overthinking it
• You’re not sure “what to say”
• Your mother told you not to brag 🙂

Underneath all of those “reasons” may be lurking a core fear: That you’ll do it wrong.

But marketing works when you do it. Even if you don’t get it “right” every time.

And one thing I know for sure: The key to filling up your pipeline with potential clients is having a consistent marketing habit. Even if it’s just a few minutes a day.

It’s never about doing anything “perfectly” or getting it “right.”

Just a gentle reminder as you get through this holiday week and start thinking ahead to next year.

I don't see why not. 

There are so many different types of mentoring relationships, some formal, others informal, some paid, others unpaid; some explicit, others you don’t even realize that’s what it was all about until years later! 

As a mentor myself, I have a natural bias toward a more formal arrangement with explicit goals and boundaries – since that’s what I offer.

That said, in Episode 540 of the Marketing Mentor Podcast, I loved hearing about the informal relationship Georgiana Dearing had early in her career with one of her clients, who mentored her because that was just his nature. 

She learned so much through that relationship, which she has since internalized and continues to pass along now in her role as marketing manager of a manufacturer. (And also as one of the expert coaches in my Simplest Marketing Program.)

So listen here (and below) and learn. 

And if you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

...especially when you make it a daily habit AND you don’t get in your own way.

That’s what it takes and that's exactly what brand messaging strategist and copywriter, Stacy Eleczko, has done. 

The result: a thriving business in less than 3 short years, with no danger of being replaced by AI.

She's one of many smart creatives who are following the Simplest Marketing Plan -- without even knowing it -- because it just makes sense!

So listen here and below:

And if you want to walk in Stacy’s footsteps, the baby step to take is to build your marketing habit.

She talked a lot about that throughout our conversation and her suggestion is a networking baby step: invite someone for a coffee. Sounds simple, right? Could even be fun. 

Stacy is also doing regular content marketing. You can sign up for her newsletter here.

If you want my help figuring all of this out, take advantage of my free mentoring session.

And if you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

The long responses, the constant urging to give you more and more information…

It can be a lot.

How do you manage AI overwhelm?

You don’t have to. Let me be your filter.

Here’s what’s important right now when it comes to marketing and AI:

When to use it: When you get stuck.

I don’t use AI for writing or thinking. But it’s great when you don’t know how to reply to a client… how much to charge… what to post about on LinkedIn… or you just need permission to do something. AI is excellent at helping you get un-stuck.

When to be wary: All the time.

AI output sounds really good but it’s often wrong, and has the “AI sameness” problem.

And I’ve never seen an “honest” AI. It’s a people-pleaser, resistant to giving bad news. (When people do this, we call it “BS,” by the way.) 

When my clients want an honest opinion, they come to me - the Real Ilise. Which might be a new way to set myself apart: as a truth-teller.

What AI can’t do: Replace what makes you you.

What you have that your clients (and AI) don’t is the taste and judgment that come with your experience and expertise. 

Anyone can prompt an AI. But not everyone knows what you know. Only you can determine when and how using it for your client is helpful - or not.

3 Prompting Methods for Better Output

There are countless ways to prompt AI, but some work better than others. To get better results, try one of these methods I picked up at the Marketing AI Conference (MAICON):

1. Use a framework.

A current favorite, developed by Geoff Woods, author of The AI-Driven Leader, is called CRIT. In a single prompt, include:

Context - give any relevant background information to help the AI

Role - give the AI a “role,” such as an “expert marketer” or “fitness expert specializing in body recomposition for women.”

Interview - tell it to ask you up to 3 questions, one at a time, to help it refine its answer.

Task - define what you want from it.

A quick Google or AI search will give you more frameworks to play with.

2. Ask AI to write or improve your prompt.

Not sure how to write a particular prompt to get the best results? Quickly type one out, then ask the AI to improve it.

3. Ramble!

I was surprised how many AI “experts” are doing this! If you get “stuck” trying to make a perfect prompt, simply use your phone or computer’s “dictation” mode to ramble off what you want the AI to do. That’s it - that’s the prompt. 

Watch as I share my current take on AI in the “Best Bits” from November’s Office Hours for the Simplest Marketing Plan here:

👉 What’s your favorite prompting method? Share it here and let’s see what everyone says.

That’s all for now - thanks for reading.

In today’s episode of the Marketing Mentor Podcast, he generously shares what’s working and which markets are thriving in face of AI.

Because, as I like to say, "Marketing works when you do it."

And September and October is prime marketing time. Before everything slows down for the holidays, this is when people are spending budgets they don’t want to lose and pulling the trigger on projects that need to get done.

I love watching the members of my Simplest Marketing Program get their marketing done – and we are seeing the fruits of their labor. One in particular is Scott Hull who matches big brands with illustrators and illustrative designers. (You can also find him and the work on IG at @scottbhull)

Also, I asked Scott to share one lesson he’d learned over the years and he said something I’ve been saying a lot on this podcast lately – be human!

Easier said than done, I know, but super important these days, right?

So listen here and below. 

If you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

And If you want my help figuring all of this out, take advantage of my free mentoring session. You can find that and lots more resources, including my Simplest Marketing Plan at marketing-mentor.com. So enjoy and I’ll see you next time. 

Complete transcript

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Alright, Scott, welcome to the podcast.

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Scott Hull: Thank you!

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And as I always do, please, begin by introducing yourself.

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Scott Hull: Well…

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Scott Hull: I think I'll start out by giving kind of a description of, yeah, of what I do, as you've said. You know, because you know when the marketing and creative leaders are under a lot of pressure, you know, trying to deliver ideas, you know, and products, and understanding fast, and

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Scott Hull: They're trying to find that right illustrative designer.

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Scott Hull: you know, that's… it's like looking through a needle in a haystack, is what it comes down to, because there's too many options looking for that type of person, there's not enough time, and the risk

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Scott Hull: of picking the right person, who doesn't get it is pretty scary. Well, that's where I come in. You know, I connect decision makers, mainly the creative and the,

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Scott Hull: marketing people, you know, with insanely talented and experienced, collaborative, illustrative designers who understand how to turn a visual, you know, into results. And I've been doing it for over 40 years, and we've been very fortunate in such. But we're seeing a lot of twists and turns that are taking in the business, which are

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Scott Hull: Pretty common, and…

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Scott Hull: And we'll get into that here in a few minutes. So, I'll let you start firing questions, though.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Alright, and you and I have known each other for many years, I don't know, 20, 30.

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Scott Hull: Well, when did you first start, the HAL Design Conference? Because that's the first time I met you.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: I first spoke at Howe in 1993, so…

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Scott Hull: That's when I met you. Was it in San Francisco?

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: I can't remember, actually, where it was.

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Scott Hull: No. Or no, no.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: I was in Chicago. My first one was in Chicago.

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Scott Hull: Okay, yeah, because I spoke a couple times there, but yeah, I know that was the first time I met you, and it was intriguing with what you were doing, and now to see you how many years later, and we're both still around, that's unheard of.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And, if I remember correctly, I mean, in a way, you haven't… you didn't explicitly say this, but you are an agent of.

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Scott Hull: Oh, I'm sorry.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Yeah. And designers, right? And at the time, I was still kind of figuring out what I was doing, and so there was a quality of agenting or potential.

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Scott Hull: Indeed.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: that was what people needed. I decided not to go in that direction. I decided instead to teach people, but I don't know, maybe just start by speaking to that idea of being a representative of an artist in a commercial context.

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Scott Hull: Yeah, yeah. That's interesting, because I started out as a graphic designer, And,

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Scott Hull: it was the days of the art studios, which were, looking back, it's pretty fascinating. And so we had, I think it was, like.

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Scott Hull: 9 illustrators and 7 designers on staff, and did a lot of work for Procter & Gamble, and

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Scott Hull: other large companies. And so, that was pretty phenomenal, at that point. And, like, young, naive, maverick people, after about 3 years or 4 years of it, it was like.

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Scott Hull: you know, freelance was becoming very popular, the fax machine, or at that time, the quip machine, was starting in, so communications were broadening out.

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Scott Hull: And so, I got to thinking about it, and there was a group that wanted to start a new studio, you know, typical jump ship.

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Scott Hull: And it was like, I know, I want no part of it. Dealing and herding cats, and trying to deal with these egotistical folks. So we came up with the concept of becoming an agent. And so each worked individually, and then I became just like a sports agent or a,

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Scott Hull: an actor's agent, and so I handled the talent, and then I would go out, secure work, help develop portfolios, and basically built relationships, is what it all came down to. And I think that's why we've lasted as long as we have, is being fair, being honest, having tremendous talent, being very blessed to be associated with talent.

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Scott Hull: And being able to curate,

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Scott Hull: their careers and such. And so we've seen a lot of, you know, obviously in 40 years, a lot of ups and downs, and like I say, there's a train wreck every 7 years.

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Scott Hull: And so far, it's holding well true.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And I want to get into a little bit the evolution of your business, but I also want to tee it up by saying that

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: one of the reasons I invited you to be a guest on the podcast is because you're a member of the S&P Plus program, and we're near the end of the year, and we're focused on finishing the year strong, and you, I happen to know, are finishing the year super strong, and you sent me a note that basically outlined, at the time, 8 active projects from

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: you know, big companies, and… and so I just wanted you to somehow kind of start by talking about how are you ending the year strong, and what exactly are you doing, and

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And I know that it's cumulative, right? You talked about really…

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Scott Hull: Oh, yeah.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: and the value of relationships, and I imagine that

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: because you have all those super strong relationships, that is one of the main reasons that you're ending the year strong. But just respond to that in whatever way may.

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Scott Hull: Sure, sure. Well, like I said, I'm based in Dayton, Ohio, and so I'm not in, you know, a big area, but in Dayton, Ohio, one time we had the,

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Scott Hull: the largest 90-minute market, which means you basically can drive 90 minutes away and really hit the majority of the marketplace in the country. I did a fair amount of travel to, obviously, New York and other

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Scott Hull: places and did a lot of one-on-one. I enjoyed it. It was fun to get out and hobnob. And I always tried to use the philosophy, I'm not here to sell you. I'm here to give you 15 minutes of recess. So, you know, you carry your

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Scott Hull: portfolio and show your wares, and I always try to use it in terms of learning more about what their needs and such were, so that was… that was a big blessing.

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Scott Hull: And so, over this past year, obviously the last few years, as so many of you are facing, business is just, you know, it's tanked. It's not the 90s anymore. You know, in the 90s, at least the world of design and illustration were coming on strong.

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Scott Hull: And even design, to a point, I think, in the…

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Scott Hull: Probably… the teens, design was doing fairly well, but there was a… seemed to be a shift in the terms of the leadership, or the design thinking was becoming stronger and such.

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Scott Hull: And so we have, kind of started to embrace that, but really what has made our, you know, close the year out strong, because I'll tell you, the last 18 months have been real stinkers, and we have,

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Scott Hull: Yeah, in the last 18 months, normally we'll see maybe 2 or 3 companies either downsize or even close their doors, but in the last 18 months, I figured that 10 clients that we had worked with have either closed their doors, they have downsized.

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Scott Hull: And… or… It just shifts their whole philosophy and such.

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Scott Hull: And I'm not talking about little, one- and two-man people. I'm talking about AT&T. I'll probably get shot for saying this stuff. AT&T. Dan & Yogurt, you know, went from a staff of 42 down to 6.

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Scott Hull: And so we're seeing more of that happening, and on that. So, by taking… that was one reason why I set up for your

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Scott Hull: SMP course, was I just needed, I don't know, rejuvenation, and just to hear what other people were doing.

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Scott Hull: Because, you know, after doing this for 40 years, you think you've got the sales process down, you think that everybody knows you, and there is really nothing different. But yeah, with all these changes taking place, yeah, everything is different, but yet everything is the same.

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Scott Hull: And so, by being associated with it, I realized that, especially talking to Andy,

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Randy Brennitz.

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Scott Hull: Yes. Just listening to him, and on outreach, and that type of thing, which gave a lot of encouragement, and made me realize that it needed to go back to what we were doing. Like, for instance.

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Scott Hull: 10 years ago, our mailing list was 18,000 people.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Ridiculous!

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Scott Hull: And then we started getting in, doing more CRM processes and so on, and then we reduced it down to about 4,000 to 5, is where we're kind of at right now. And even now, I'm looking at things differently, because listening to Andy and the group talk.

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Scott Hull: It is. In today's market, it is geared more towards relationships, more one-on-one, and dealing more with solving problems and being… making beautiful paintings and such. And so, with that, I think what has helped us was, you know, Andy was

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Scott Hull: Andy and the team, Lisa and Bonnie and so on.

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Scott Hull: really were promoting, you know, outreach and writing, emails, and being more aggressive in what you're doing. And so, you know, I went back to doing that again, and trying to do it more on a regular basis. And I think it's just…

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Scott Hull: as you say, Elise, it's momentum. Yeah. And with that momentum, I think, you know, I'll tell you, I'll be honest with you, man, the first 6, 7 months, they were stinkers. Yeah. And I didn't know if I wanted to continue doing this. But then, there at the end, like, all of a sudden, 2 weeks into September.

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Scott Hull: The floodgates started opening, and one of the largest jobs that we ever,

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Scott Hull: You know, ever worked on was through,

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Scott Hull: Olipop, which is a soft drink, and they're getting ready to develop, or we're helping them develop a new character, and it's all focused around, content marketing, but there were 55, illustrations that needed to be done in a short amount of time.

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Scott Hull: So that was like, you know, hallelujah for that. And then, that same week, we ended up getting, Spindrift.

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Scott Hull: the agencies for Spindrift calling us to do some, flavor illustrations for that, and then we ended up,

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Scott Hull: getting, Harvard Marketing, or I'm sorry, Harvard Medical was doing a, website focused on mental health, and so we ended up doing the illustrations for their, you know, branding of their look and such. And then there's been others come in, too, so…

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Scott Hull: Why did it come in all of a sudden? Could have been economics, people realizing that, oh, we're getting ready to go into the fourth quarter, and we gotta spend the money? Yeah. I don't have a rhyme to reason, so I'm…

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Looking at you, at least, to give me those answers.

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Scott Hull: But I would say that it was because of the relationships, because that's one thing I've been doing, is looking at it and saying, why? Why did I get a call from these companies now? And, you know, companies I really don't even know. But what I found out, it was all referring back to referrals.

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Scott Hull: And that was what Andy talked on, I think it was last Monday, was referrals. And that's what I've decided this coming year is, as you said, finish strong, but go into 2026 strong. Well, my whole philosophy is going to be referrals.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Okay, let me just try to respond to some of what you.

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Scott Hull: I'm sorry, I'm just…

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: No, no, there's a lot there.

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Scott Hull: You've got me wound up here. Sorry, guys.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Alright.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: That's alright. I guess I first want to say thank you for telling the truth, number one, about how the last 6 to 18 months has been, because I really don't think there are a lot of people out there telling the truth, and I am a big proponent of the truth, and I don't like sugarcoating things, and making it seem like things are better than they are, so…

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: I think for a lot of people.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: I won't say everyone, because some people do well when things are not going well. But for a lot of people, it has been very, very difficult, especially the first half of 2025.

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Scott Hull: I'm…

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: So I appreciate your honesty. And… and I… I think I also appreciate your consistency, and the fact that you have just kept showing up, and kept

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: doing the marketing, because when things aren't going well, and the marketing doesn't seem to be working, often that's when people give up. Yeah. And I think that's a huge mistake, and the people in my circle know that, and hopefully they

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: give up less than other people would. I know it's hard to keep it going, but that's why we're here.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And so, I think that, one of the things you're talking about that I thought was really interesting, so…

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Maybe we can focus on this mix of what's old is new again, and how, as you said, you had a mailing list, you used to mail to them on a regular basis, there were 18,000 people on that list.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And then it sounded like you intentionally whittled it down to $4,000 or $5,000.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And then started to get more aggressive and proactive. I would think I would use the word proactive and assertive, perhaps, because a lot of people don't like the idea of being aggressive, even though that may be.

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Scott Hull: I would call it focused, is what I would call it.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Focused, interesting, right? And doubling down on outreach and relationships, and then the idea of referrals. I want to come back to that, because often referrals gets confused with word of mouth, where people think you don't have to do anything, but I know you're talking about something very proactive as it relates to referrals as well.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: So, Start, if you would, with how you…

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: What you did with your list.

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Scott Hull: Well, with the 5,000, matter of fact, we're going through a,

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Scott Hull: episode right now because I'm moving my CRM platform to another service because of expense, and as I learned through SMP, it was like, you know, why do I have this

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Scott Hull: this big car with all these bells and whistles, when I… all I'm trying to do is get from point A to point B.

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Scott Hull: And so, that's what I realized with the mailing list. How many people am I really working with? How many does it take for an illustrator, a designer, to have a good year? And so, that's when I started really trying to fine-tune and reach out, and try to reach out to those key people on a regular basis. Now, when I say regular basis, I'm not saying every week. I'm saying

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Scott Hull: Every quarter tops.

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Scott Hull: At least twice a year, just to let them know that, hey, I'm there. And also to let them know that, bringing up, you know, pain points that they might be dealing with, and because of doing this for so many years.

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Scott Hull: also trying to get them to, to see that we might, or I might have the solution to them. Because one of the biggest issues I've had, in my business has been… I've always been behind the scenes. The artists have always taken front and center.

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Scott Hull: And, you know, I've had…

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Scott Hull: people say, well, you know, with all the knowledge that you have and such, you know, people will be interested, and you're basically… you know, artists are going to come and go, but your service has been going on for 45 years, for heaven's sakes. And so, that's when I started putting two and two together and saying, well, then I better quit focusing on

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Scott Hull: helping

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Scott Hull: young people who really don't understand how to commission work, and I better focus, because our artists and talent are, you know, they've been at it for

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Scott Hull: you know, 15 plus years. And so they are expertise, or have expertise in that field. And so that's why we ended up kind of, not downsizing, and that's what I'm looking at now, is having a good, strong list.

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Scott Hull: But then, doing it in such a way, and this is where I'm getting into referrals, doing it in such a way, and that's what Bonnie and Lisa

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Scott Hull: and even George talked about a bit, was, how do you go about, doing that? And Andy's done a really nice job putting together some prompts on, writing it, but what I'm trying to do now with my CRM system

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Scott Hull: is, how can I,

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Scott Hull: start to build curiosity, and start to make them feel like, you know, we're the go-to people, like I said in my opening, that we're the go-to people. If you have this problem, then we own it, and we're who you need to be talking to.

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Scott Hull: So…

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Yeah.

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Scott Hull: Sorry, I'm getting to ramble here, so…

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: That's alright, no, no, it's good.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: So, maybe we can focus a little bit, then, on your approach with referrals that you've been doing and are planning to do into 2026, because you referenced your CRM, which is a Customer Relationship Management System.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And I imagine that's a combination of outreach and content marketing, which are two of the three tools in the SMP.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Talk a little bit about the details there. What exactly are you doing? Are you planning to do? How do those tools work together?

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Scott Hull: What I'm finding is, obviously, Instagram and LinkedIn are very important. Facebook, you know, not so much anymore for us. X, forget that one. But really, also working with you, I'm realizing that,

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Scott Hull: LinkedIn really is pretty robust. The biggest issue that I see we have is the fact that for about 35-plus years, we've been using, been licensing lists, and it was a company that deals with creatives, agencies, in-house brands, and so on, but what I'm finding…

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: the list.

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Scott Hull: Yeah. So, what I'm finding is, their list isn't that strong anymore. And I get it, because when we used to put our list together, you know, I had a couple people that would make phone calls and talk to the creative secretary, and then the creative secretary would fax, not

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Scott Hull: email, because we didn't have email today, would fax that list to us. And so we had the people, what brands they were working for, and so it's

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Scott Hull: It was pretty good. Well, now, it's so fracted, because after the pandemic, it's like I'm working on a client with a client right now. Well.

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Scott Hull: I have the account person in New York, and it's all the same agency. I have, the design person in,

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Scott Hull: San Francisco, and then I have another person that we deal with in Cincinnati.

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Scott Hull: Now, how can I get their mailing list? Or I can give them

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Scott Hull: You know, so it's becoming more difficult. So, the process that we're doing in building our list is basically trying to use LinkedIn more.

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Scott Hull: And then, when we send out an email, or I have a conversation, maybe somebody in the group, or… I pick up the,

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Scott Hull: tone, and what I usually try to do, let's say if I am on the phone, and it's somebody I've worked with for some time, and I feel like we have a good rapport with, well, I'll ask them there towards the end of the conversation. I said, you know, you've been great to work with, and I'm trying to find people just like you.

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Scott Hull: Is there somebody that you could recommend that would be looking for opportunities to use illustration in their processes and such? And because by saying, I want somebody just like you, what that does is makes them feel confident that I respect them, which I do.

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Scott Hull: And that they're more willing to think and give you that on-the-spot opportunity. So that's one trick of the trade that I use.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And that works.

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Scott Hull: It's… so far, it has.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And then what do you do with that information or that person?

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Scott Hull: Usually what I'll do then is, if I think it's a hot lead, I'll send it, you know, that so-and-so recommended I reach out to you, or I'll ask that individual if they mind doing an introduction.

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Scott Hull: you know, I try to make it as easy as possible, and so then, you know, that's what we'll do. We'll do an introduction, and that's what we're doing right now, is trying to finish up a,

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Scott Hull: Just a very simple introduction pitch.

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Scott Hull: and let them look at it on their own time. It'll be maybe 3-minute long. It'll kind of explain what we do, and here's how we go about doing it. But what we'll try to do is to find out, first before we do it, is what problems are they facing?

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Scott Hull: And so that's… that's the big part.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Okay, and when you say a 3-minute pitch, is that a video?

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Scott Hull: Or is that a…

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: call.

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Scott Hull: It… I like to try to do a call, but in some cases, you know you can't, so I might attach a,

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Scott Hull: a video, we have a video made up, or just basically a little slide presentation that they can… almost like a carousel that you would get in Instagram or something of that nature. Those seem to be pretty effective. Probably the best effective tool that we're using, that I'm seeing working well, are testimonies.

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Scott Hull: That's what people are intrigued by. When I post a testimony on Instagram, it seems like it gets some of the higher hits and such, and, you know, we haven't been doing enough of it.

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Scott Hull: First of all, because the first part of the year was so slow that we didn't have anything to testify about, or get testimony.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: money's about.

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Scott Hull: Just joking. But that's one thing that I think is a real plus, because, I mean, if you go to Amazon to buy something, what do you do? You start looking at the reviews, and that's where I think reviews are becoming more and more popular, as sales tools.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: I agree with that, for sure.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: they seem to be super effective, and so then there's the question of how do you… even if someone who wants to give you a testimonial, or an endorsement, or a review, like, it takes their time to do it. Do you have tricks for making it easy for people? Do you just…

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: you know, harass them until they give it to you? What's your story?

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Scott Hull: Yeah, of course.

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Scott Hull: what I usually do is, I send them samples, hey, here's 3 samples of what other people have written, and all I'm looking for are basically 2 or 3 sentences. That's all. You know, some people say then,

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Scott Hull: You know, they'll write it themselves, and then send it to the person, saying, would it be okay to share it like this?

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Scott Hull: I try not to do that, but I have, because if I've had a conversation, I'm taking notes, and they… there are little snippets of that conversation, I think, where they're giving us praise.

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Scott Hull: I will take it and have it massaged and maybe share it with them and say, you know, something like this. And if you like it, well, we'll just go ahead and apply it, and if you're okay, we'll put your name to it.

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Scott Hull: But yeah, you can't… you can't press them, because, like, the people I'm trying to work with, more of the C-level, they're… they're slammed.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: So… I wanna, shift a little bit and talk about the future.

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Scott Hull: And AI.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: In whatever way makes the most sense, but I guess I'll just start with a question, a very general question. Like, what do you see as the future for illustration and design, and where does AI fit in, and

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Where do you think or see that, you know, real images from real illustrators and designers are going to continue?

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Scott Hull: Oh, that… yeah, that's the big… the big open, question these days, is the trends, you know.

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Scott Hull: We all know that AI is coming, and it'll end up basically wiping out the mediocre talent. I mean, that's a given. But it means you gotta step up.

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Scott Hull: and work on your thinking, your thinking and your thinking skills, because, like I said earlier, that, you as an illustrator designing just making pretty pictures isn't going to cut it anymore. You've got to provide strategy and thinking, more to, you know, strategy thinking behind it, because that's what we're seeing is, you know, why we call ourselves illustrator designers is because the

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Scott Hull: At one time or another, that person was probably an art director or a designer themselves.

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Scott Hull: And all we're doing is almost like the old pushpin studio days. Instead of using photography and such, you know, we are providing basically an illustrative solution to that problem, and we're collaborating, you know, with the company and such.

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Scott Hull: So, you know, that's kind of a big part of it. Now, from the dark side, because technology and AI, what you're going to see is mounds and mounds of carbon copies and clones, you know, everywhere.

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Scott Hull: And the issue with that is that marketing is going to basically flock to AI because, you know, they're thinking they're going to be saving money and such, and so you're going to start seeing more

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Scott Hull: of the same tools in social media and all. But if you can differentiate yourself, and really, you know.

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Scott Hull: Move forward with it,

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Scott Hull: you're going to position yourself as being knowledgeable and being able to provide advice, and that's what I think companies are going to be looking for, you know, with AI. Because, like I said before, AI is just basically… you're going to see clones, people swiping from the same, same sources and such, and things are going to be, looking like that, because the other thing that I'm seeing, too, as I said earlier.

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Scott Hull: With all the downsizing, It's taking away the design thinking that

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Scott Hull: really, I think IBM, really started promoting design thinking.

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Scott Hull: And, so what that's doing is disrupting, let's just call it, trying to think of the right word…

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Scott Hull: Your innovation muscle. There we go.

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Scott Hull: You're ruining… the companies are ruining their innovation muscle. They're doing away with the creatives, only thinking that they're saving money on the bottom line, but in reality, two to three years later.

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Scott Hull: everything is shrinking, and they're gonna start to saying, well, you know, why isn't our brand doing better? And I mean, we're seeing that already. Matter of fact, I just had a refrigerator repairman. We had the refrigerator for 6 weeks.

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Scott Hull: And he was really… I was getting excited. Matter of fact, I should have been preparing for this better. But I was fascinated by what he was saying, because he was talking about the chain of command.

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Scott Hull: And how, Samsung and GE and LG are basically trying to cut corners to make more money. And,

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Scott Hull: It's really turning into,

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Scott Hull: lack of innovation, because they're trying to cookie-cutter and template everything together, and that's the same thing that I'm seeing with companies today. So if you can differentiate yourself, you know, and use AI, don't get me wrong, that's why I said, everything is changing. Our tools and so on, AI, but we still remain the same, and what the… the same is basically, we still have to have clients, we still

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Scott Hull: have to have those relationships, those referrals. You know, and as they say, relationships are rocket ships.

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Scott Hull: And so that's why I'm saying everything's the same, and that's why I've enjoyed working with you, at least, is the fact that,

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Scott Hull: I've noticed that it hasn't changed in 40-some years. We still are… are trying to serve the people. It's just that the tools have changed a bit, but it still comes down of relationship building.

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Scott Hull: And, you know…

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Are you saying, then, in terms of the downsizing, that there's an opportunity for designers and illustrators and writers to come in.

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Scott Hull: Oh, yeah.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: The thinking that is being lost.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: In the attempt to save money.

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Scott Hull: Oh, exactly, because I think, within the group, there seems to be quite a few riders. And, you know, I know that a few have lost

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Scott Hull: clients because of AI, because companies thinking, well, I don't need

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Scott Hull: a writer to do this, I can just run it through AI, and I can have one people instead of outsourcing all these, different creatives, but what they're finding is that that's not true. Now, you as a writer, the advantage that you're going to have is you can work a lot faster with AI. You can end up finding more information quicker, and so on, and just like content providers, who would have, you know, these huge,

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Scott Hull: huge staffs and deep pockets to do it. Well, now they can use it, basically 3 people to do that.

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Scott Hull: But the whole situation is, you gotta humanize it, and that's what AI cannot do, and that's why I think writers just have to shift their thinking and start selling curiosity instead of, you know, a hard product and such.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And, you know, one of the other things you said was that you find out… you've been… you've positioned your firm as problem solvers, and so you speak to the problems.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And my question is, because it sounds like you're saying you can differentiate yourself from the same old, same old, and from the mediocre, and from the AI by addressing the problems.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: and providing solutions to the problems, but I think one of the places people get stuck is, well, what… how do I know what problems they have? So, how do you think about that, and what do you do about that?

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Scott Hull: That's a… that's a great question, because, you know, you're so used, or you're in the day-to-day type of operations, and you think that everything is the same, but, you know, it's like.

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Scott Hull: You put in all these years, and you start to see the pivots. You start to see things, you know, starting to shift, just like I said earlier.

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Scott Hull: you know, it used to be you showed your portfolio, you had beautiful pictures in it, and they go, - isn't that great? And and then they would hire you because they were looking for that particular style or something of that nature. But in today's market.

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Scott Hull: they could care less about beauty. What they're looking at is, are you solving the solution? Are you getting that attention from our audience? And that type of thing. So, that's where I see, you know, really trying to differentiate, you know, what is that one thing that you, your company, is all about?

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Scott Hull: And what are you going after, and what's making you different than your competition?

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And when you say you there, you're talking about the client?

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Or are you talking about the creative service provider?

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Scott Hull: I'm talking about the creative service provider.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Okay.

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Scott Hull: the client has to realize that for themselves, and, you know, it first has to start with us, or with the… with the one person, and that's why I'm seeing even,

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Scott Hull: Personal branding has become so popular.

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Scott Hull: you're no longer a company, you're basically your own company, whether you are working for a huge company or, you know, a solo performer. So, that personal brand is important, and what you do is important. That's your resume.

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Scott Hull: It's what makes you, or what has been your successes, and not a list of, here's my education, but here is the successes that I've had, and here's how I helped this company go from this to that.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And so, just back… circling back to the question of how do you find out what the problems are, or the main problem.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: That they need solved, that you could propose the thinking

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: How do you find that out with your market?

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Scott Hull: Well, that's where AI comes in. I'm finding that being very intriguing, and that's why, you know, at least AI,

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Artificial.

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Scott Hull: Yeah, there we go.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Eye collar, artificially.

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Scott Hull: Well, you're… you hit it, I just… I forgot the brand name of that. You know, using programs like that have been very interesting, because I can ask, you know, what are…

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Scott Hull: from character development, you know, what did, Cracker Barrel…

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Scott Hull: you know, have to deal with, and what were some of the issues. So, writing a good prompt is extremely important, and then I can come back and kind of analyze it. So, I mean, how long would that have taken me to do all those interviews and such, where AI can help you streamline it a lot quicker?

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Scott Hull: And so that's one of the big tools and how I'm using AI, is just, you know, how to write the right prompts.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Okay, two more questions.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: I want to just circle back also to this question, big picture question about the future of design and illustration. I guess I would say…

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Is there a future for design and illustration? What do you.

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Scott Hull: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Design, most definitely. You know, but as I said earlier, you've got to watch it because,

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Scott Hull: Yeah, you know, just keeping focused on the human, human environment, you know, and staying close to the customer.

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Scott Hull: and getting insight, and then, you know, how to use AI to work with the customer faster. That's where I see it going. In terms of illustration, yeah, there's going to be a big change, because it used to be, with editorial and such, there was a big market in that. It didn't pay as great, but you had a lot of it.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And now with AI, you're seeing.

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Scott Hull: You're going to be seeing more content being developed,

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Scott Hull: visuals being developed by AI and all. But what you're going to have happen is the thinking isn't going to be there. Everything's going to look cookie cutter.

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Scott Hull: And, you know, pretty much the same. So, if you can, you know, kind of ride that wave and move forward, but you've also got to look at where is your audience shifting to?

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Scott Hull: Because it's like what we're dealing with… let's take magazines, for instance. They're pretty well gone.

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Scott Hull: And, but what we have found is there's still alumni magazines out there, and they pay pretty decent. And they're looking for, you know, good writing, they're looking for good visuals, and so on. So, you know, that's a market that you've just got to twist and focus a little bit more on.

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Scott Hull: The fact that, Printing is basically… you know.

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Scott Hull: shrunk a big time. And what we have found is packaging, there's still, and there always will be, need for packaging, which is still print. And so we're doing a lot of work with packaging design firms and in-house design firms. So, you know, that's a big one.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And what about environmental graphics?

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: What do you see?

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Scott Hull: Well, obviously, we're seeing a lot of murals.

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Scott Hull: And communications, we're seeing, a lot of companies, doing murals in-house. We just, Thursday, I was just… last Thursday, I was just down, we did, artwork for,

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Scott Hull: the Cincinnati Children's Hospital. And the whole premise that they were trying to do with their environmental graphics was when the

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Scott Hull: patient, the child, walks into the hospital, they're relaxed, they're calm, and they're using, you know, beautiful colors and great organic designs, animals. We did artwork, murals that was almost like, Where's Waldo? where you would see animals and that type of thing.

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Scott Hull: And you know, you can't get that through AI.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Right?

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Scott Hull: And so, there are opportunities like that. It's just, you know, thinking ahead of the game, and where's, you know, where's the next move going to be?

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Alright, last question.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: I want to know what the most important lesson is that you have learned over your 40-ish years.

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Scott Hull: Oh, hang with the right people.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Mmm.

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Scott Hull: Let's see…

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Scott Hull: Well, I'd have to say, like I said earlier,

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Scott Hull: Focus on the human environment. Stay close to your customer with insight.

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Scott Hull: And,

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Scott Hull: you know, by letting them know, you know, what you do, and what problems you solve in that, and then you can use AI to continue that insight. So, you know, really, it's just…

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Scott Hull: staying face-to-face, making sure that they know that you're there, and you know, it's like, we've been dealing with, I'll tell, I'll name names, Lowe's. And that's been a frickin' disaster, because they have forgot what customer service is all about.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Hmm.

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Scott Hull: And even, you know, fast food restaurants, customer service, and yeah, just be human. I would say that's the biggest lesson I've learned. And hence, that's why I…

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: And learning more, you know, through your S&P classes, too.

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Scott Hull: I guess that's it. Be human.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: I love that. Beautiful.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: All right, thank you so much, Scott.

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Scott Hull: Thank you.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Where they can find you online.

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Scott Hull: Online, I'm at Scott Hall, that's H-U-L-L dot com, that's my website, and then, Instagram, it's Scott, B as in boy, Hall, and I think my LinkedIn is also Scott Hall.

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Scott Hull: But there are… there is the, bass player for the Pig Destroyers that, also has the name Scott Hall, so…

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Scott Hull: But he seems like a nice guy.

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Scott Hull: So, that's it.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Alright, beautiful. So please reach out and say hey.

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ilise benun, marketing-mentor.com: Beautiful, thank you so much.

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Scott Hull: Thanks, Elise, appreciate the time.

And, after attending MAICON (the Marketing AI Conference put on by SmarterX) last week…

I believe that’s true now more than ever – and for all of us. We have no idea what our potential is.

The conference was eye-opening, and I have so much to share with you, from prompting tips and frameworks to productivity tips, and more. Stay tuned!

But today I want to give you my biggest take-away. The reason why I believe your potential is expanding faster than you may realize.

Thanks to AI, according to Alex Kantrowitz of The Big Technology podcast, we’re now entering…

The Age of the Individual

What does that mean?

It means that being “on your own” is no longer a disadvantage.

And that the label you give yourself and your business may not matter in the future.

It means that your knowledge, expertise, and perspective can now be augmented with AI. (You’ve probably heard that recently.)

What you “offer” can expand past the boundaries of your “self.”

And that, my friends, puts you in a position to “crush it” in your business, as Kantrowitz told us at MAICON.

But only if you’re able to do what I’ve always said you need to do. 

That is:

Listen to the Market

This is a time of immense opportunity. And as a solo creative professional, if you listen to your market, then use your creativity and a little AI, you can out-create a bigger, slower team. (We saw plenty of examples of that at MAICON.)

Here’s what to do with that:

1. Find new problems you can solve (with AI).

One problem everyone seems to have is "time to learn AI" so, off the bat, that's a problem anyone can help solve.

A woman I met at MAICON recently started training small businesses on how to use AI. It’s not too late to learn and then teach AI tools. Could you do that? 

2. Look for new ways to solve old problems (with AI). 

What do AI tools allow you to do for clients that you never could have done before, or that would have been too expensive for them to afford?

3. Think “market-first,” instead of “role-first.”

Currently, your clients may think they need  a “writer,” “designer,” or “coach.” But in reality, what they really need is a solution to their problems. That’s you (and AI)! So that’s how you should position yourself.

As always, and especially now, treat your business as a laboratory.

My conversation with tech humanist and author, Kate O’Neill went from “Should AI write your first draft?” to “Will AI be a good companion?” 

Kate is the author of "What Matters Next: A Leader's Guide to Making Human-Friendly Tech Decisions in a World That’s Moving Too Fast."

I was intrigued when she added a comment to one of my popular my LinkedIn question posts, in which I asked, "What exactly does it mean to be human?" (Thanks to Beth Granger for tagging Kate!)

Kate wrote ....”your call to 'be more human,' as I hear it, aligns with the imperative to keep the sense of meaning and purpose in our work.”

That only made me want to dive deeper into this question -- and that’s exactly what my podcast is for. So I invited and Kate immediately accepted!

Our conversation started very organically with the question, “Should you write a first draft before handing it over to AI?” -- a big debate for anyone who does any kind of writing. 

• Should you (and I) generate a first draft from AI that we then polish and “make our own?”
• Or should you (or I) be the one who thinks through that first draft, handing it over to AI only for editing and “perfecting.”

What do you think?

As for me, writing is thinking and I love to write so at this point I don’t use AI at all in my writing process (including this). Plus there are so many other uses for AI that I am loving.

Anyway, our conversation meandered from there and I did a lot of free associating – everything Kate said brought so many more questions to mind. I have a feeling that will happen for you too as you listen. 

You can listen here (or below):

BTW this conversation took place in early August 2025 – on the Thursday that ChatGPT 5 was released actually. 

At the end, we barely touched on another big debate topic about AI as a companion. I like to say that, "I thrive in response," but do I thrive in response to any “thing?” Or do I thrive in response to a person, or to whatever the elusive thing is that a real human brings to a conversation? Will AI replace our human companions? Can AI even be a companion?

Lots of questions and no answers! But certainly lots of fodder for more thinking and talking, with people (and maybe with Artificial Ilise, the chat bot I make available to the members of my Simplest Marketing Plan and program).

It’s a fascinating one! And if you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

I can hear your objections to doing your marketing. It’s a sixth sense from nearly 40 years as a business coach for creatives.

Because after all these years, what works to get clients hasn’t changed…

It’s connecting with real humans.

And guess what? That’s exactly what you seem to fear the most. 🫣

So today, I’d like to help you quiet the voice in your brain and start connecting, with…

4 Low-Effort Outreach Actions 
(And My Retorts to Your Objections)

1. Check your piles. 

You went to an event and came away with a pile of business cards, now collecting dust in a drawer.

Why not dig them up and reach out?

Your Objection: “It's too late. They won’t remember me.”

Reality: It's never too late, you just have to provide context. Tell them, “Wow, I just found your business card at the bottom of one of my piles! So I'm reaching out. How's tricks?” Totally relatable.

2. Check in on a past client.

Ask, “How's everything going since our last project?”

Your Objection: “That's so boring. That's so salesy.” Or, “It's too simple, it has to be more complicated than that.”

Reality: It’s just a check-in. And it could be that simple. In fact, that's what my long-time client, renowned copywriter Bob Bly does! (Just sayin’.)

3. Send a thank-you for current work. 

We don't often reach out in the middle of a project, but it's a nice surprise. 

Just say, “I know we're in the middle of something, but I just want to say I love working with you, so thank you for this opportunity.”

(Of course, it should be genuine.)

Your Objection: “Isn’t that overkill?”

Reality: Not at all. Remember it’s all about relationships. 

4. Thank someone who referred you recently. 

You got a referral but forgot to say thank you.

I give a lot of referrals, and I always appreciate when someone says thank you and tells me what happened. 

Ex. “It never actually materialized, but I really appreciate you thinking of me anyway.” 

It doesn't even have to be a project that came through. What matters most are the connections.

Your Objection: “I forgot to say thanks and now it's too late.”

Reality: It’s not too late, really! Just do it. 

And when it comes to outreach, remember this: 

You don’t need everyone to respond. You just need one good, solid project to make your efforts worthwhile and to keep the outreach going.

Don’t give up too early. If you keep at it, you will start to see your efforts pay off.

The credit for this list goes to the wonderful and very organized Reesa Del Duca, of Ballyhoo Design Co., who made a list of 20 outreach actions and shared them with the SMP+ members. Thank you, Reesa!

Watch as I share my simple definition of outreach and more tips for just getting it done in the October Office Hours for the Simplest Marketing Plan here:

Then, for a little fun, watch the "Ink Insights" cartoon recap from my friend and SMP member, the very talented Antonio Meza:

That’s all for now - thanks for reading.

Some call it a hamster wheel.

It’s a real thing and it’s been coming up in my coaching groups lately.

You see, the marketing is working and now they feel like all they're doing is getting a client, doing the work, getting another client, doing another project, etc.

A good problem to have, no doubt, especially right now.

But they want to know, “Will this treadmill ever end?”

I recruited my good friend, Ben Callahan, to tackle this question. (We both just love questions :)

And it turns out, the answer starts with another question: What do you value?

That’s the baby step Ben suggested. But don’t answer by cogitating about it. Because we can tell ourselves anything we want and it’s not always the truth.

Instead, look at a few of the decisions you’ve made in the last year. Why did you do what you did? And what value(s) is/are underneath it?

That way, your values are more actual than aspirational. 

Listen here (and below):

And If you want my help figuring all of this out, take advantage of my free mentoring session.

And if you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

Have you ever taken on a client project you didn’t believe in, and you couldn’t wait ‘til it was done?

I’ll bet you have. 🙂

But what about when you’re enthusiastic about a project, client, or mission, and can’t wait to use your talents to “transfer that enthusiasm” to the world.

What’s better than getting paid to do that?

If you’re not “feeling it” with your current clients, maybe it’s time to adjust your own marketing so you can attract a better fit.

But first you have to reconnect with (or remember) why you’re in business in the first place.

When you're disconnected from your “why,” it can be harder to find clients because something inside of you doesn’t actually want the work.

So, try asking yourself this 2-part question: 

1. Why am I self-employed?
2. What am I trying to achieve?

When I shared this question in our last Office Hours for the Simplest Marketing Plan (SMP), here’s what came back:

Do any of those feel true to you?

What else?

Once you have your answer, there are two types of actions you can take to find clients that are a better fit:

1. Getting ready: Actions that make you feel ready
2. Getting clients: Actions that generate real clients

Which ones are you doing? 

Learn which actions actually generate better clients in the “Best Bits” from September’s SMP Office Hours here:

And here’s a delightful “hint” at what we talked about in Office Hours, from my friend and SMP member, the very talented Antonio Meza:

Are you taking “get ready” actions or “getting clients” actions? Find out for sure with this handy chart.

That’s all for now - thanks for reading.

Because you are not alone!

It's been a struggle for many Marketing Mentor clients and members of the Simplest Marketing Plan.

But the good news is that very few of the people in my circle were freaking out.

Know why?

Because they knew what to do: they got to work on outreach, content marketing and networking. (That's the Simplest Marketing Plan in a nutshell!)

And guess what? It worked.

It sometimes took longer than they wanted it to, but things have started to shift and now, many of these people have more work than they can handle.

Because it’s true that when it rains, it pours. 

That’s what happened to Maria Guerriero of Germinate Creative.

She suggested we do a podcast about it because she wanted to share:

• how she handled the slowdown
• what worked for her
• and why it worked

I just love how real and honest Maria is – I’m sure that’s one of the things her clients love too.

So listen here (and below):

Baby Step?

Maria's baby step is a good one – talk to someone!

I love that because one of the biggest misconceptions about marketing -- what so many people fail to realize -- is how important relationships are when it comes to getting clients.

Sorry, but it's rarely (and never solely) about your design style or your writing ability.

It’s about who you are and how you show up -- as a professional but also as a human being. 

I believe that need will only get stronger as AI permeates our world.

Things, they are a-changin! So if you want my help figuring all of this out, take advantage of my free mentoring session. 

And if you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor. 

In a recent Simplest Marketing Plan Office Hours session, someone admitted to doing this.

So I asked the group what “fear of engagement” means to them…

And people had feelings!

Sound familiar?

If “fear of engagement” stops you from creating content… remember this:

The point of creating content isn’t to be “right” or for everyone to think you’re wonderful. It’s to stay visible to potential clients. That’s it!

And everyone will forget about your post by tomorrow, anyway.

If you’re still not convinced, why not practice with AI?

If you have access to my chatbot, “Artificial Ilise,” give her this prompt:

PROMPT: “I want to post about [insert your idea] on LinkedIn, but I’m afraid people will make negative comments or question my idea. What should I do?”

See what she says. 

You could even ask her to tell you positive or negative comments people could make - so you can be ready if they come.

If you don’t have access to Artificial Ilise, stay tuned… I’ll announce some exciting plans for her soon! 

In the meantime, try it with any AI and see what you get.

If posting isn’t your thing, engage with mine instead! 😉

That’s all for now - thanks for reading.

That’s just one of the questions I asked Rebecca Matter, President of American Writers and Artists Institute, who hires lots of freelancers and gets pitched every single day.

I jump at every opportunity to ask my clients’ clients all the questions you'd love answers to, like:

• how to tell when the time is right to reach out to a dream client
• what makes a good pitch and a bad one when you do reach out.
• how to spot opportunities
• how Rebecca is using AI these days, and which copywriters AI is replacing. 

We also talked about AWAI's new AI Manifesto...find it here.

This is a good one, so listen here (and below). 

And if you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

Read the complete transcript here

Hi there, this is Ilise Benun, your marketing mentor, and this is the podcast for you if and only if you are ready to leave the feast or famine syndrome behind. And I mean for good.

As a freelancer, it's not often you get to hear from a client about how they perceive and receive your self-promotion efforts. That's why I jump at every opportunity to ask my clients’ clients all the questions you'd love answers to, like how to tell when the time is right to reach out to a dream client and what makes a good pitch and a bad one when you do reach out. Those are just a few of the questions I got to ask my good friend, Rebecca Matter. She's the president of AWAI, American Writers and Artists Institute, and she hires all types of freelancers. She gets pitched every single day and she does respond positively to some of them. In fact, together we analyzed a recent pitch she said yes to and why. We also talked about how to spot opportunities, how Rebecca is using AI these days, and which copywriters AI is replacing. This is a good one, so listen and learn. 

Hello, Rebecca. Welcome to the podcast.

Hi, Ilise. I am so excited to be here. 

I am too. This is your first time and we should have done this sooner for sure. But this is the first of many, I can tell already. So, before we get too far into it, please introduce yourself and give us a little background. 

My name is Rebecca Matter. I'm the president of American Writers and Artists Institute, otherwise known as AWAI. It's a company that trains copywriters and content writers and creatives. But I'm also a marketer, a copywriter in my own right, and a serial entrepreneur. I can't not be building something new at any given time.

I love that. And how long have you been doing what you're doing? 

I've been with AWAI over 20 years, which is crazy to say, and I've been in the publishing, copywriting, marketing space for almost 30 years at this point. 

I don't think I know what you did before AWAI because I do remember you kind of appearing on the scene way back when, but I don't know where you came from. 

It's kind of a funny story. So, my background is actually in scientific and technical publishing. 

Wow. 

I have a marketing degree, but I worked for a textbook company and that was during the dotcom boom. And so I had the fun and craziness of working with a bunch of different dotcoms in that space that was just at a very exciting time.

And then I decided to change direction and I thought I should practice my interviewing skills. So I found this company called AWAI and I went for an interview and 4 hours later I was still there talking to Katie Yeakle, one of the founders and I fell in love. It was the weirdest experience. I didn't think I wanted the job. At the end, they assumed I was hired. It's like they literally put me to work by the end of the interview. And it all happened so fast. But I went home thinking this is a company where they believe in what they're doing. I could work for something that I now believe in, too. And I could help people change their lives. And I had never in a million years, I had never associated that with work and that was such a life-changing moment for me. 

Wow, that's awesome. And now you're the president of the company. 

Now I'm the president, which is awesome. I'm like the hair club for men guy, the old ad from way back in the days. I'm not only a customer or I'm not only the president, I'm also a client. 

I think Bob Bly used to write some of those ads if I remember correctly. 

I think so. But no, being with AWAI, you know, I came in with marketing experience and within a year I thought, I want this too. I want to live the writer's life. I want to be a copywriter. I want to help other businesses and other people. And so, it's just been a wonderful opportunity to learn and grow. And eventually, I did take the role of president just because I'd been around for so long and I just had so much passion for the company, I just couldn't leave. I had to make it keep going.

That's awesome. And you're a little different from most of the people who I interview on the podcast. Similar yet different. And what I thought would be interesting is to talk to you as the client who hires creatives even though you are also a creative yourself. And actually, I'm sure you know I use that term very liberally because I think anyone who thinks of themselves as creative or a creative fits into that category and I know you do. 

I do and I love that I'm in this position because I have hired and do hire and work with and help other people hire creatives. And I've done this for two decades now. And so I do feel like I have an insight, like we can go behind the curtain with the truth because it's in everyone's best interest and I understand this side so well, the client side, even though I'm also a writer and I'm out in front. I understand this role really well and hopefully I can give you guys some insights into what we're really thinking. 

Yeah, that's exactly what we want. So first, What kinds of creatives or freelancers do you hire? Is it just copywriters or does it go beyond that? 

Oh my gosh, when I think back over the last two decades and even who works for me now. I mean, even the word copywriter, right? I hire and have worked with so many different kinds of copywriters. But I've also worked with designers, web developers, marketing strategists, copy editors, ghostwriters, content managers, and loads of specialists. Even more so recently in certain marketing channels like LinkedIn or let's say lead gen. I would say half of the AI team is actually freelance right now, which is so interesting and you know I love working with freelancers. I think freelancers bring fresh perspectives and I can only speak from the AWAI side but the AWAI team we are a very tight-knit group and most of the team has been with me for a very long time which means that we all have the same blind spots. We all have been doing the same thing for so long. But they're also such hardworking people. So freelancers allow them to extend, you know, their output way past the capabilities that they could have on their own. So I can't think of a creative type that I haven't hired at some point in my career. And like I said, I would say right now the freelancers are matched against the full-time count at this point.

Yep. And two things you said I want to try to connect them. The idea that freelancers bring a fresh perspective – cuz I think that will be news to a lot of freelancers listening, because often they think there's too much they don't know and that holds them back. But sometimes that's the beauty of what you bring – that you don't know. And so you have to understand the way a customer who doesn't know would also understand.

I love that. 

I just want to connect that idea of the fresh perspective to the idea of hiring lots of specialists lately. You and I have talked over the years about the importance of having a niche or a specialty, and so is there a relationship between that fresh perspective and specialists – I don't know, I just feel like there's something there. 

Well, let's start with the fresh perspective side and see where we end up. because you bring up such a good point and it's funny how you and I can think and say something and then you're like hold on to dig into because you made a statement what you don't know is actually valuable and I 110% agree with that. I think that as a business owner or an entrepreneur or whoever you're dealing with, the marketing director, the creative director, we sometimes think that they know it all, have it all. You know, they know everything about the business. And while they do know the business, we're so into what we're working on and we're so close to it. I don't remember what it's like anymore to be brand new. Even though I can try, I can't really get there because my brain has all of the memories and experiences that I've had so far. So, even though I can, let's say, write to or coach someone who's just starting out, I still don't know what it really feels like to be them anymore. I can pretend that I do and I can try, but I don't really. And so having somebody from the outside give that new perspective like, I don't understand this piece. Can you help? Can you explain it in a different way that opens up so much knowledge of where people really are in this journey that helps me reach them. And so what you don't know is actually sometimes more valuable than what you do now. And I know it sounds crazy, but I think it's okay, especially for newer writers, to talk to clients that way. What I bring to your company is perspective from someone that you might have forgotten where they really are in this journey, what it's like to be brand new in this journey. So, I think there's that fresh perspective and then again, we get caught up in our own worlds as business owners and what we're doing and we sometimes lose sight of what else is out there. And so you, as an outsider, as a freelancer, can bring perspective like, “I love what you're doing here, but man, I also love what this company over here is doing. Have you guys ever thought of doing that?” I don't have time to do that research, to be able to go and look at everything that's happening out there. And so that fresh perspective of “have you tried it this way? Have you thought about it that way?” You would be shocked at even the new newbie in all the land. How they can ask a question that just stops a meeting. Like, oh my gosh, how have we not thought of that?

Right. Well, you mentioned the blind spots. 

Yeah. Yeah. That's what we call them at AWAI because we have them. No matter how long I've been doing this, no matter how much experience I have, everybody has blind spots. We have them in all aspects of our life and we especially have them at work. You don't even need a ton of confidence. It's just the the confidence to be able to say, "Have you ever tried it this way?” or “I have a question about this” – that can actually I think demonstrate potential value in a much bigger way than you might imagine. 

And I hear content in there too for freelancers because that kind of question for their own content marketing or that kind of “hey I see this company doing this and it looks really interesting and I don't even know them but here's what they're doing” and just sharing that with everyone in your network. 

It's huge. I've often told creatives that one of the things I would do if I was starting again would be to go to a trade show in my niche and reach out to everybody that I wanted to talk to and say, "I am writing content. I'm writing a special report on marketing in this industry. I'd love to interview you."

Yeah.

And then I would just interview them. And I would publish all of that because we've talked about this before, Ilise, but by talking to somebody about what they know and then turning around and saying, "This is what I've learned from this person," you not only get to claim your own stake as an expert in that space, but you get the glow of the person that you interviewed as well. And so, I think there's amazing content to be had in there. And if honestly, that's interesting. Even if you just thought of those first conversations with a new client from that perspective, whether you get the job or not, you're really doing it for content for your own. I mean, oh my gosh.

Right. Takes all the pressure off. Totally. Totally. And it wipes clean that blank slate, right? Or it fills the blank slate and then you can't use the excuse, "But I don't know what to write or I don't know anything. These people already know everything and I know nothing." It's wild. It's wild. That's one of the best qualities of a really good writer in my opinion, is just curiosity. And so if you can just listen and ask that next question that pops up in your head, that just naturally does, the conversation is always richer and it takes all of the pressure off of you and just allows you to just be curious.

And so I think even just trying to connect it to this idea of having a specialty, which is essentially knowing more about one thing or two things, because sometimes when I say “focus,” it doesn't necessarily mean on only one thing. It just means not on everything. So having a specialty, when you're looking for someone, whether it's a copywriter or a consultant or a coach, how important is it to you that they specialize in something that is relevant to you? 

It's so interesting and I hadn't really thought of it, but I used to never hire specialists. Not intentionally. It was just that most of the writers that I worked with kind of stumbled into my lap, right? Because we train writers and so who's going to be the best advocates and writers for our stuff than people who really know our stuff. And so they would usually start as juniors and then roll up into and learn other things and grow and expand. But lately the way that the marketing channels work now, you know, when I started it was direct mail and then the web came on and that was really exciting, the internet. And so things have grown and now, I mean You used to be able to specialize in “social media.” That's not a thing anymore. Being able to really help a company gain traction in one of the social media outlets is a lot of work. And so I think there's a shift happening even more so. I'm looking for someone who can help me with my LinkedIn strategy. I'm looking for someone who can help me with my lead gen strategy. At the same time, it works the other way too. I recently had a freelancer who came specifically and said, "You all are not doing a good job on LinkedIn." And they said it in a nice way. “Girl, you know, there's so much more opportunity here for you. I'd like to talk to you about this thing.” I wasn't seeking. I had no desire to do anything on LinkedIn. It wasn't even on my radar. And this pitch was so strong that I thought, "Wow, maybe we should. So now I'm kind of going the other direction thinking and I'm seeing people who can specialize, who really can go a lot deeper. Right next to that I have great marketers who work for me who are trying to get into other marketing channels and they're learning. It's great but even they will say, “Gosh if I just didn't have to figure this all out on my own, we could have moved so much faster.” So I do think that there is a huge opportunity right now for creatives. And I know it's scary, but even if you don't only specialize and that's all you do, just to have a starting point for the conversation because to say “I can do everything for you in your niche” is one thing, but to say, “hey, you have a huge opportunity over here that you're not taking advantage of in this one channel. Do you want me to go ahead and do that?” It's a lot easier for me to say yes because it's so specific and we're kind of stepping into a relationship and that person can then offer something else next month and something else the next month and just keep stacking and increasing the scope of the project. But I really feel like, especially today where everything is so overwhelming, marketers are supposed to know so much about so many channels. But the reality is you cannot get traction if you divide, if you spread out that thin. I think there's a really strong opportunity for writers to at least understand that when they're reaching out to someone just to offer one specific thing. And here's the other thing. Even if I say no to that thing, it doesn't mean you can't reach out to me next time with something totally different. And that one might be right. And even as I say that, Ilise, I'm like, man, that's really good because I can get five nos from one client rather than one no. And the chance of one of those nos not being a no is a lot stronger if I have five unique pitches that I'm making to them.

And I'm glad you brought up pitching because I wanted to talk about that. I mean, clearly you're open to a pitch and I would love to analyze what made that the right pitch or a good pitch? 

So, I get pitched every single day. I have emails and DMs and all the kinds of things of every kind of professional service you could possibly imagine, from office cleaning to accounting to legal, and then of course in all kinds of creatives. I engage with some. So, I'm going to talk about the bad ones first and then I'll tell you what made this one so unique.

Most people who pitch me, it's very generic and I can tell it's boilerplate and they don't know who I am. There's some generic line in there about AWAI and that's very easy to dismiss. If you didn't take the time to write me an email, I'm not going to take the time to write you one back. I just feel like that's how it is.

But to the ones that I respond to, 99% of the time their response to my response is generic. And that shocks me every time. Like you had the foresight to customize the first reach out to me. You got me to respond and then you're going to kick it with something generic back. Like I was an active participant in a conversation and that is what crushed is 99% we don't even get past that next email because the minute I get the generic response, “oh, we can help you.” And it's just so nothing specific. I'm really busy. I've got lots of stuff to do and answering this email isn't one of them anymore. What made the LinkedIn pitch strong is that when I said yes, I'm interested. Tell me more, it was a really short email. But it had three very specific things that I could have and I think a lot of freelancers are afraid of this. I could have taken them and done them myself. But again, very busy. That's not not why I hire. I hire freelancers to do the work that – we can do a lot more together than I can do individually or anybody on my team really. And so it was very specific, “This is how I would approach. Boom boom boom.” And I was like, "Yeah, let's do that. That sounds easy." And there really wasn't a lot of risk for me. So, along with the specificity, and the ease of saying yes. I think that's huge. I love that because for me as a client, there's like not a lot of risk there, right? I don't have to go through three rounds of emails or proposals or all of these things. We can just kind of jump in the boat and start rowing together and seeing if we're going in the right direction. There's not a lot of risk. I was reviewing everything before it got published, so I wasn't afraid that something would be said and you know and the cost for that one project was easy enough to say yes and it will grow from there because you know it's going well and that's what got the game started though. So it was the specificity, the ease of me saying yes and the really low risk, again not even just risk of the copy succeeding or failing but the risk of time. I think we forget just how busy…Everybody works so hard these days and having something where they're adding a lightness. I get to do more but I don't have to work harder. It feels nice to be able to try something else that's new without a lot of risk in time on my side because that time would be taken away from something else or someone else in the business. So that was also part of a really good pitch. 

When I think about pitching I think about the parts that the freelancer can control and the parts that the freelancer can't control. And you've described the parts that the freelancer can control. But the part you didn't mention, which I would love to hear your take on also, is timing. It sounds like it came at the right moment where you were either thinking of that and realizing, like it struck a chord, right? It hit a note. You're like, Oh yeah, they're right. I do need to focus on that.

You know what's funny? And now I actually remember the whole story. What happened was we published what's called our Manifesto, because this narrative in the world around AI is just incorrect. So we thought, we've got to take control of the situation and help this industry understand what's happening with AI. So I published the manifesto and I ran a webinar and it was the day I ran that webinar that this person reached out. And so I have to believe that that timing was, "Oh, hey, I got an idea because clearly this is important to her and important to AWAI, this manifesto and this message. I'm going to put this proposal out now." Which is another huge take. Watching your potential clients and seeing what they're invested in can be a gamechanger. Because one of the things I love most about writers who work for me is enthusiasm and honestly likability. Like just get in the boat, let's go. Get excited about what we're excited about. Let's do this together. And so as you just said, timing. I've often said timing is important because a lot of times somebody will reach out to me and my initial instinct is yes, that sounds so cool. But then I'm pulled away by three Teams messages and the next meeting I have to go to and 17 emails and all of the things and I'll wake up at 2 in the morning, thinking, “I've got to get back to that person” and it just never becomes a priority. But this is a good example of timing matching the priority. She recognized – I'm guessing I'll have to ask her now – she recognized that we had a huge priority. And my response was, I'd love to hear what you want to do, what you would do, but here's what I want you to do first. You have to read this manifesto and watch this webinar. And so her proposal, now that I think about it, was very specific: I think we should get that manifesto out there and here's what we're going to do on LinkedIn. And so it was tied to something that I – Isn't that funny? I didn't even remember that.

Interesting. Interesting. Yes. 

But it was tied to something that was priority to me. So that might be something that your listeners could take away. 

Well, let me frame it this way and let you respond because I've been talking a little bit lately on LinkedIn also about the conscious effort to look for opportunities.

Yes, I love that. Right. And so this person was clearly looking for an opportunity. But how else can we say look for opportunities? Like how does one recognize an opportunity? No, that's a really good question. I think it would depend on if I had an ideal set of clients, I really want to work for any one of these companies. I would be watching those conversations. So, I would be looking for product launches. I would be looking for newsletter launches. What is the conversation that they seem to be having again and again? Like, what is blowing up for them right now? What are they putting out there that feels important to you as the viewer and to them as the company? I think those are always opportunities. Anytime something new happens in a company, huge opportunity because they've already invested a bunch of time and resources into pushing something new out and their hearts are in it. I said at the very beginning, I'm a serial entrepreneur. So, my heart is in it at the very beginning and then I jump into the very next thing cuz I love the launch. I love the creation. I love the idea part of it. So, those are really good times to get everyone's attention because they're all into it. But, you could also look for opportunities in just engaging. It doesn't necessarily have to be something so big. I think it's important for you to understand the company's mission – what is it? Not the mission that's on their website, but mission like “what do they stand for? What are they trying to accomplish? What problem are they really solving?” And being able to present opportunities that way. I think that could be one. And then just engaging, like commenting and participating. I hear story after story, I've heard some on your podcast of creatives just commenting on websites, on LinkedIn pages, on things just to demonstrate their interest and expertise and that leading to something that they weren't even – it's not like they were looking specifically for a job at that moment. They were just jumping into the arena and participating actively as though they were a peer rather than someone just looking for work.

And I just want to circle back to what you said this person did and I'm curious if you could share the verbiage, because you said the opportunity they look for is “you could be doing this so much better.”

Yes. Right. 

And yet people are always afraid to say your baby's ugly. We're not saying your baby's ugly. We're just saying you could be doing so much better. It could be so much stronger. So do you remember at all how that was phrased? 

I don't remember specifically, but I'm going to take a guess because I learned something and I know that this creative has also learned from this person. One of our good friends, Andrew Davis, we were talking about script writing. He said his best approach is to go to a company and say, "I like that this is doing A, B, and C. I wish it was doing X, Y, and Z” The spin that I've put on that is oftentimes I will take somebody else's LinkedIn profile. So in this case, I might say, "I'm looking at this other person's LinkedIn profile, and I think that there's a lot here that we could learn from. I love that they're doing A, B, and C, but what they're missing is X, Y, and Z. And I think if we do that on your LinkedIn strategy, it's going to be cute, you know?” So, what I love about that is you don't have to say their baby's ugly. We're taking somebody else's company,

We're also framing it in not just “it's not ugly,” but “it could also be better.” Very powerful in that. And what I also love about this strategy by saying somebody else's, it psychologically puts you in the seat of the judge. You're judging this thing. What is good and what is bad? And we oftentimes talk about demonstrating expertise and what if I don't have experience? And I'm telling you right there, you are the expert because you just showed somebody your expertise in being able to judge what is good. and what could be improved upon. And then your proposal is right out. I can do this for you. I can mimic A, B, and C, but we're going to also do X, Y, and Z, and that's going to make the difference.

I love that. And actually, let me use this as a segue, if I can keep it clear in my mind, to talk about AI. 

Yes. What? Your best friend. 

Exactly. We both love AI and Oops, I already forgot the connection I was making. All right. Well, Maybe it'll come back. But let's just start with how are you using AI for yourself. 

Okay. So for me, I think of it like my buddy. I'm very nice to it. We talk every single day. And I have a lot of different applications that I'm trying. But the thing I do the most is a thinking coach. And that's the only way I can describe it. I like to see how it interprets my requests. So I articulate things one way and it's going to perceive it one way and that's always interesting to me, to see what it feeds back to me based on the way and how I'm asking it and then what follow-up questions it has for me. So whatever I'm working on now, I'm running it through AI not to write for me because we can get to that a different day. I love to write so I'd rather not have something taking the thing that I enjoy away. But I like to see what follow-up questions it has for me, the questions and the conversation that I have oftentimes opens up loops that I have not considered. And even if I don't grab on to that loop or think that that idea that was given to me was good or worth writing about, it opens my mind in a different way that oftentimes leads me to three ideas down the line that I would have never got to had I not opened this loop. So for me, and I think it's probably one of the the most basic usages of AI that I encourage all writers and creatives to do is just put your thinking through it just to see what other ideas and how you can shape the ideas that you're working on in that moment. And I use it for a lot of other things, but that's the thing I love the most and that's the thing that has become a daily practice for me. 

And that reminded me of the connection I was trying to make. So, let's see if I can articulate it because it seems to me you were talking about even if you have no experience, you can be perceived as I like to say “an” expert as opposed to “the” expert, just because it takes the pressure off a little teeny bit. But what I'm seeing happening with the rise of AI is that anyone can ask a question to the chatbot, any of them, but to know whether the AI is right or which of the suggestions it makes are the priority or make the most sense or would be the right best for you. You do have to have a certain expertise. And I am seeing, and I imagine you are too, that even as the clients, our clients, your clients, our clients’ clients, start to see their clients using AI, there's still the need for – some people call it the human in the loop, but there's a need for someone to be the judge.

Gosh, that's an interesting… There's a couple different points there cuz there's the expert, using AI and being able to judge in that moment, right? And then there's those of us who are writing about things that we might not be super knowledgeable about and AI helping to assist with that. So there's a lot a lot there. I'm curious if your angle is more about the creative at this point in that conversation. 

Yes. 

So for me the role of the writer. You know, I think there's a big misunderstanding that companies, business owners, CEOs, dentists, veterinarians, that they're going to be using AI to replace writers. And the best example I can give is if you imagine your veterinarian (or your dentist, if you don't have a pet), spending any time using AI to write their newsletters, do their social media, create content calendars to ensure that their patients keep coming back on regular schedules, to send out renewal reminders and all of that stuff. Why would they do that? Because they don't get paid for that. They get paid when they're tending to their patients in the patient room. They get paid as the business makes money. So, I think I just wanted I know it's not exactly what you're asking, but I do want to reframe this mindset that AI has come in and will replace writers because now people can use AI instead of writers. It's not the case because for one, that's not what they do. They don't. It's your tool. It's not their tool. It's no different. Like now, my dentist actually built my crown in the office using a 3D printer, right? It's giving him speed to allow him to fix my tooth faster. That's his function. AI is your function. It's your tool that you get to use as a creative to make yourself faster. But that's your professional service that you're providing, it's not theirs. So, there's already a disconnect for me on how people think a company is going to use AI to replace them. And then right next to that is the output itself and the judgment of what is good and what is bad. Writers, it's our ideas. It's the control of the machine that is going to lead to good output. But even the output, it might sound good, but it doesn't mean it is good – the articulation of the final idea is everything. One of the examples we've been using internally is someone like a James Patterson or any other bestselling author who turns out tons of books, right? AI is no different than him creating an idea for a book, writing the outline, handing it over to the junior writers, who then writes the first draft, him taking the draft and rewriting it. AI is the junior writer. AI is the person who potentially is putting down the first draft. Now, there are so many usages of AI and you might never use it that way, but it's not changing the industry. The only way it's changing for writers, it's still your idea. It's still your controlling of this machine. And then it is your articulation of the final product that matters most because at the end, it's either going to connect or it's not. And the CEO, the business owner, that's not their job to figure out what connects. They haven't learned that. That's not what's in them. And AI doesn't know that either. It doesn't really understand connection. It doesn't really think, right? It only gives you what you're asking it and what it thinks you want to hear and that's what it's outputting. But at the end, your final articulation and your revision of that and completion of that is what you've always brought to the table. Nothing has really changed in my opinion as far as this world. and what the value that writers bring to it.

I see things changing a bit. I agree with what you're saying. I think what really matters is what works. So, if any copy that someone got from an AI works, then maybe there's something there. But I haven't seen copy that works, right? Especially conversion copy that people actually buy from. So, there's that. But there was another thought. Oh, I know. I was watching a webinar yesterday where they were doing a landing page in 8 minutes flat. And of course, the copy was already written. And I thought that was really interesting because it was just all about taking existing copy and putting it into a landing page. And I feel like the replacement that is happening is with people who never would have paid for copy or creative in the past. Now they're using AI to do what they'd never done before basically. They wouldn't have had the money to spend. They don't have the money to spend. So they're using whatever tool is available. But I think at this point I wouldn't trust my copy to AI.

Oh well. And you brought up an interesting point too because the other big news story and this was when the BBC interviewed me, the New York Times interviewed me, they were all pushing on this idea that companies were moving to AI instead of hiring copywriters. And when we dug into the specifics, what they were talking about was the little tiny projects, the $5, like the Fiverr type stuff. And I said, "Oh, oh, oh, wait a second. I'm teaching people who want to build writing careers, writing businesses. So, we're not talking about the same person. And it was so interesting because they were so stuck on these little jobs. And so, my big takeaway from those conversations was that those people who were paying $5, $10, $20 for copy and content, they never valued the copy anyways. So, just like the person who might not have ever been able to afford anything, it was because they really didn't understand the value of that investment. The person who's willing to only invest a little also doesn't understand the value of the investment. So AI gave them the option to pay nothing and get an output that they also don't value or understand. And so if you don't understand the marketing piece of it and and why good copy works – that's part of the manifesto, it talks about what I believe or what AWAI believes the capabilities are, or the competencies of a writer, as we move into this next age of copywriting. You brought up the point, if it works, it works. Exactly. But you have to understand what works, you know, and somebody who doesn't value copy or content never had an understanding of what the potential could have even been had they had copy and content that was doing the job  – it was to bring them the outcome that they wanted. Whether that was more clients, more leads, closing more sales, whatever it was, they really never understood to begin with what was to be gained.

Yeah, it's so interesting. We are going to have to wrap up this part one of our conversation clearly, Rebecca, but the thought I was just having is that what I'm seeing is that more and more copywriters also need to understand marketing. It's always been that way, right? Bob Bly, a friend of ours, a mutual acquaintance, a client of mine for years and years, has always called himself a marketer/copywriter because he gets marketing and that's why his copy works so well. So more and more I think this is a forcing function for copywriters to learn marketing.

It's so funny because I believe the new role of the copywriter is – it's ironic – it's this one man agency basically who can take on so much. But at the core, it's understanding persuasion, which is copywriting. It's understanding marketing. It's understanding how to write, with or without AI. It's understanding editing. It's always been, whether you're editing your own work or AI's output. And it's the ability to get clients. Success in this business relies on marketing. As my good friend Ilise Benun would say, marketing works if you do it.

That's right. And the foundation of my business is that having a successful business, a business you can depend on, as I like to say, is all about the marketing of it. 

Absolutely. And the irony though is that that is what AWAI, the company that I'm president of, has always taught. It's persuasion, marketing, writing, editing, getting clients. Like, it's always been there. So AI has not really changed it. It's just that we used to maybe step into it and now we're coming out of the gate saying if you want a writing career, this is what you have to know. And so it hasn't really changed all that much, but the opportunity is big for really good writers because all that little stuff, it's all going away. Good writers who are helping companies really do what they're intending to do are always going to be in demand, whether they use AI or not, but they need to help. I mean the know-how to get clients, help your companies that are trying to solve a problem for their audiences and that is your job. your superpower as the copywriter and it is not going to change in this new world with AI. You'll just be doing a lot faster.

All right, so let's wrap it up there. Tell the people where they can find you and the AI manifesto that you referenced. 

So AWAI is awai.com and if you just go to awai.com/manifesto, you will find our manifesto and that is our stance on AI. What the copywriting industry can expect in the coming years, which by the way, people are thinking AI is taking away the jobs, but the reality is the budgets on copywriting services over the next 5 years are going up to the tune of 20 billion more than what have been spent in the past, which is totally counterintuitive. If AI is taking the jobs, why are they spending more on copywriting services? But we break all of that down as well as those four skills that we talked about that you need and how to navigate and position yourself in this new world of AI. But that's it.

All right. Beautiful. Thank you, Rebecca. To be continued, as my mother likes to say. 

Thank you, Ilise. 

So many awesome takeaways in that episode. I especially loved the reframe of a newbie's ignorance of an industry as a benefit and a fresh perspective that could help a new client see beyond their own blind spots. So, be sure to check out the AI manifesto that Rebecca mentioned at awai.com/manifesto. And if you want my help figuring all of this out, take advantage of my free mentoring session. You can find that and lots more resources, including my simplest marketing plan, at marketing-mentor.com. So, enjoy and I'll see you next time.

That’s what everyone wants to know.

We do love drama.

Well, the answer is "no," according to today’s guest on the Marketing Mentor Podcast, Atlanta-based SEO & AI Visibility Consultant, Jenny Munn.

"They’ve been trying to kill SEO for years," says Jenny. "But no, it’s not dead – however, as with everything, it is changing."

And this shift requires a reframe because what really matters – whether AI is involved or not – is being findable by the people you want to find you.

Whether it’s via Google search or one of the AI platforms or on a social media platform – to be findable you have to know what language your people use to describe their needs.

And that’s just one of the topics we covered with Jenny, whose speciality is AI related to SEO.

Jenny had so much great info to share -- I especially love her advice to stay on top of what’s changing without being overwhelmed by it.

That is a best practice for sure, if you plan to survive this exciting but unknown future.

So listen here (or below):

If you want my help figuring all of this out, take advantage of my free mentoring session. 

And if you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.

Read the transcript

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ilise: All right, Jenny, welcome to the podcast. And please introduce yourself.

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Jenny Munn: Thank you. Thank you for having me, Ilise. I am Jenny Munn from Atlanta, and I am introducing myself now as an AI SEO consultant, which is new the past few months. I used to just say, I am an SEO consultant and trainer. And I help marketers learn how to do SEO, so they can do it for their organization as well as I have a few retainer clients that I'm their in-house SEO person for so.

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ilise: Yeah, I noticed that you had adjusted your title or your elevator pitch to include AI. I thought that was interesting. We're obviously going to talk a lot about that

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ilise: and is it just you in your business.

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Jenny Munn: It is. It's just me and my trusty assistant chat. Gpt, yeah.

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ilise: And.

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Jenny Munn: Best assistant I ever had. Yep, I've been a solo solopreneur for 15 years now for my own business. My! When I say I'm Jenny with jennymunn.com for 15 years now.

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ilise: Excellent, all right, and give us a little background about you, and just the evolution of your business model, because I imagine you didn't start this way.

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Jenny Munn: Yeah, I've evolved quite a bit, but I do feel like when people like, Oh, what are you up to these days? I'm like same old, same old actually, you know. But I I started out in about 2008 ish. I had just had my my 1st son, and I knew I wanted to control my own schedule, and I could pick him up off the school bus at 2 30, and I would work early in the mornings and weekends to make that happen. But I

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Jenny Munn: was researching what I wanted to do. And I was like, you know what I think. I really want to be a blogger. Blogging was kind of new at that time, and upon doing that I found someone named Peter Bowerman, who was a copywriter, and that really kind of took my background when I worked for companies in sales and marketing and my love for writing and put those together. So I was like, okay, I'm going to be a freelance copywriter now. And I put up my little website, jennymunn.com. I taught myself Wordpress

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Jenny Munn: and I went to meetups free meetups, because I had, you know, had no money right? I just thought I'd start my own little business, my little freelance business, and I met a business owner, and he paid me $75 to write 2 press releases, and I went back to my office and I wrote those. And then I sat there and was like, Okay, bring on the next client, you know, and and I waited and waited a while, and then finally, I feel like.

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Jenny Munn: Couple months later, after I tinkered with my website and changed my my writing around the Banner and everything. And my husband was like, so are you going to start bringing in any money, or maybe think about going back to get a job. So we can have health insurance because he was independent. Also, I was like, Okay, I guess I need to figure out what I need to do to bring in clients. So I started going out more. I started talking to people and business owners about how they

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Jenny Munn: hired copywriters. And they said, Well, I went to Google, and I Googled Atlanta copywriters, and I just kind of reached out to the few couple who were at the top. This is like, okay. Well, then, I need to figure out what to do to get myself to the top, and in the meantime I would go out and meet people. I went to a lot of freelance events and.

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ilise: Lots of networking.

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Jenny Munn: Lots of networking referrals were my best source of revenue and getting clients, because I met people who had been freelancing for a while, and they would refer business to me because they were too busy, or they wanted bigger fish. And so other copywriters were my best source of referrals. And you know, again, I just grew to love

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Jenny Munn: our colleagues and ourselves, and like really adopt the mindset that there really is enough business out there, and we can all help each other. And then, when people started asking me so I did. Copywriting. I love copywriting is absolutely like my heart what I love the most. And but when people started asking me how I got to the top of Google because I started getting really busy with leads who were finding me.

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Jenny Munn: they said, Well, can you teach me how to do that? She was like I can? So I went from copywriting to SEO copywriting to then, finally

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Jenny Munn: doing all the things as SEO got less technical because I am a very much non technical person, as you guys will find out later in the AI part where I talk in very non-technical terms about it. I am not technical, but but with Cmss and Wordpress, and the ability to put a title, tag and a meta description into a plugin. So you don't have to know how to code like that became where SEO really opened up to non-technical

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Jenny Munn: people who are good at good writing and knowing who your audience is. And so that's how I got into SEO consulting and then training. I love teaching people what I know, and and then finally adopting the last evolution recently is adopting the the AI part of it all.

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ilise: Awesome, interesting.

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ilise: I mean, you've mentioned networking. And you were part of my coaching groups early on. So you know the 3 tools of the simplest marketing plan, outreach, content marketing, and networking, as you perhaps have noticed, I never talk about SEO,

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ilise: and there's a reason a part of it is, and I'd love to get your take on this before we go into more detail about SEO. But I really feel like for service providers, creative professionals, copywriters, designers, coaches, consultants.

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ilise: It's better to choose who you want to work with and go after them versus.

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ilise: you know, waiting for ones to find you, because I have also found that the people who find you are not necessarily the best quality, the highest quality prospects. So what do you think of that?

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ilise: Maybe from the point of view where you were coming up early on as the Atlanta copywriter. But how and if that has changed now.

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Jenny Munn: Yeah. And I always love debating this with you, because I remember a couple of years ago, when I was in your group, we kind of talked about it a little bit, too, and my mind is it's it's not an either or -- it could be an and

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Jenny Munn: I got one of my best clients early on, who's still one of my clients through Linkedin, because he typed in something about SEO. Atlanta, consultant and found me on Linkedin, and so to mention also at 1 point, I, my Google leads started dropping, and especially, that is when Google decided to take the paid ads that used to be on the side and put them at the top, and that pushed all the organic

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Jenny Munn: listings down. And then here comes freelancer.com, and all these other websites that get above the independents.

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Jenny Munn: I started getting more leads through Linkedin than I did through Google right? But again, I didn't look at it like, well, SEO is dead. I looked at it like, well, I definitely need to be visible here, but to me it's just something to supplement. I still very much believe in it for creatives. And then, when people would get to your website or land, you know, if they were to type in something, I just, I feel like it's a no brainer to kind of

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Jenny Munn: do the one time work that's required to like, optimize yourself. And then, while you're doing all this great work people can be finding you. And I do think the language on your website, and who you say you work with will qualify people in or out, and they might still reach out to you, but then you could pass them along to a colleague or somebody else. And so in my mind, SEO, even if it's not the most

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Jenny Munn: qualified person is not wasted. I still like what you say. People, you know, referrals, or when you meet someone, a networking event. Right? Those are

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Jenny Munn: great referrals, too, but I've gotten some amazing leads with SEO. So I really think it could be both. Now, SEO does require a like one time and some ongoing work right? Which can be kind of a pain. That's why a lot of people creative professionals choose not to do it, but I think it could be both.

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ilise: Interesting. Good.

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ilise: So

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ilise: that big question that you've mentioned is SEO dead? Because here we are at the end of July 2025 for people who are listening in the future. We'll see if it's dead. But you know AI is on the rise, and there's a lot of talk about it overtaking the Google results. Where are you with that these days.

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Jenny Munn: Yeah, such a good question. And you know I have been like sitting and observing all of this happening for a year. I kind of stopped my training because I felt like I wasn't qualified to train up like nobody knows what's going on right now. But I do feel like we're we're at a point where

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Jenny Munn: I can comfortably talk about it again, like what to make sense of it. So everybody's always tried to kill SEO, and we all laugh about it right? Like everybody's always trying to kill SEO. And I and I get it right. Most people do want SEO to die, and they're like rooting for SEO to die. I think part of it is because of the very shady past of the black hat SEO, and doing the bad things, and again

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Jenny Munn: again, like I didn't even know, even if I wanted to. I didn't even know how to do that, because that took like the technical guys, you know, figuring out how to game the system, a lot of it.

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Jenny Munn: But things have changed. And what has really changed is that a significant and growing number of people are not using Google anymore. They are turning to these AI platforms. And so people are like, well, Google is synonymous with SEO. And so SEO is dead. But how I truly look at SEO is the

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Jenny Munn: the art, the science, and the art, and the discipline of being findable. And so, if you truly look at it like, how do I bridge the gap of what my audience is searching? What are their pain points? What are their dreams? What is the known in their mind. And then here is an organization. And here's how they're presenting their products and services. And how do you bridge that gap? I truly feel like. That's what SEO does. It helps bridge the gap between what people are looking

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Jenny Munn: for. People's pain points. Talking about Covid and the pandemic have changed so much if your business didn't keep up with the new needs and the pain points and and the new. You know it used to be

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Jenny Munn: free shipping. That was the big thing. And then it turned into fast shipping. Right? So it's about keeping your language updated based on what your audience wants. And so to me, that is never going to die. The platforms might shift and change right. But to me you need to be findable, whether it's on Linkedin, whether it's on Google, whether it's in Gemini or Chatgpt or Bing, I mean again to me. I'm hoping it's not

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Jenny Munn: well, I want to be found in Chat Gpt, hopefully. It is everywhere right. Of course you can't do all the things you do need to prioritize, but to me the discipline of doing the things it takes to be findable like, how is that going to die? I truly believe it, and I do think that's what comes from

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Jenny Munn: great marketing and great copywriting principles of knowing who your audience is, where they are, and showing up.

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ilise: I love that just the idea, like extrapolating the idea of being findable as opposed to search being inextricably associated with Google, right being found on Google. And you did mention Linkedin a couple times especially that that's where someone found you. So let's just take a little tangent to talk about search on Linkedin, because I think it's horrible right from a searcher's point of view. It's like.

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ilise: I don't know. It never feels satisfying. So I'd love to hear your take on search on Linkedin.

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Jenny Munn: That is so funny, you know, and I guess from the point of view that I don't do a lot of search on Linkedin right. I don't necessarily need to hire someone. I'm not looking for peers. I don't need to go out and look for clients that way, although I certainly could, but so that from a perspective of I'm trying to think I do find I haven't found anyone lately who has necessarily

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Jenny Munn: found me on Linkedin, have I, and said, Oh, I mean, I do get a lot of Linkedin invitations, but unless there's like a personal invite there, I ignore it. So if it is a lead. I guess I wouldn't even know it, although maybe they you know time in. I just think that it. That's where your audience is. It just makes sense that you use the language that they might type in and in Linkedin there is a feature where you can see, what did people type in to land on your profile

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Jenny Munn: like it makes sense to look through there. I saw a lot of search engine optimization consultant right? So to certainly know what are people typing? And is there a fit? And so again, I just think it's 1 of those things that it makes sense to optimize your profile, to know who this is. The whole thing behind SEO, too, is the who behind a search right? Who are you trying to attract what is their language.

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Jenny Munn: and then just make sure that's in there, and to try to be findable. So I don't put a whole lot of effort into it. But once you do that. And you kind of adopt that mindset. Who are you trying to reach? It just becomes a lot easier to target what I was also going to quickly mention that

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Jenny Munn: the past few years social has become such a huge search engine. Right? We know younger generations are using search. They don't go to Google, they go to tick tock SEO, right? Like, I talked to my kids and they all go to tick tock. Right? Instagram is anything with a I used to anything with a search bar is a search engine. So traffic has been drawing up from Google over the past few years. So

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Jenny Munn: most people go to. I mean, not most young audiences go to social, and that's why, again, search. The whole concept is being everywhere. But for us service providers. It is great to just be visible. If someone is looking.

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ilise: And that question of who sounds super simple. But it's not obviously, and a lot of people, not anyone in this room with us today, of course, but a lot of people who might be listening.

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ilise: You know, we're basically saying, you need to know your niche. You need to choose who you want to work with, and that becomes an obstacle. And I've actually been teaching people how to use AI to remove that obstacle. But here we're talking about, you know, using search once you have removed that obstacle, and I totally agree. It's really important to decide who at least you're trying to attract, not

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ilise: these are the only people I will work with, so I don't know is part of your work to help people figure out the who.

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Jenny Munn: That is the figuring out the who usually, when people come to me, they do tend to know who they're who they want, but their language doesn't reflect it like what we always say is that, like, you know, you think this is a copywriting thing, but like a megaphone, most 99% of companies I work with. They are so

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Jenny Munn: inside their own business, they're just like using a megaphone to like shout out, Here's what I do. And here's here's our services. And here's how I help you. And here's what I call my services. And this is like, this is what I want to tell you, instead of when you flip around the megaphone, it's listening to the words and the language and everything the audience is saying, and then reflecting that back to them. And so you know, most businesses kind of know who in general, but we can certainly use SEO to like dig in to find out. Well.

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Jenny Munn: let's search on those keywords. You think and hear the businesses that are coming up like. Is this really who you? So we can refine it a lot. But a lot of what I do is what I call like saving companies from themselves, right and just like knowing the who like you, cannot succeed in SEO. And this has been this way for 1015 years. If you don't.

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Jenny Munn: the better you know your audience the better. SEO you're going to have the better marketing you're going to have like knowing who you want to attract is SEO 101. And that's really I feel like the bulk of what I do to help customers. And still it's like still, to this day.

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Jenny Munn: the mismatch of the keywords and the language of the audience. It still blows my mind how we're getting back to such one on one basics that the company and people who were helping have forgotten that, like they've forgotten, they just want to say what they want to say in the language and the words and and call, you know. And it's it doesn't work that way. So.

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ilise: So interesting, and I love the megaphone metaphor of turning it around. That's beautiful. I may have to borrow that.

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Jenny Munn: It's yeah, and it's not mine. It's from, I think, Karen Thaxton, who I've had so many copywriting and wonderful marketing mentors over the years, and it just like those things like stick with you right like, cause. It's such mistakes people make.

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ilise: All right. Let's talk a little bit about AI, as it relates to search then, and as always, I like to start with definitions, and I gave you a few that I've heard of, but you know you're welcome to define any of the ones that you think are important. But I keep hearing about AI mode on Google

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ilise: Search. Gpt. Someone said, LLMO. The other day, a IOAE OGEO like

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ilise: talk to explain. "splain," please, as Ricky Ricardo used to say.

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Jenny Munn: I will, and I laugh because I'm always like EIEIO, you know, like, you know, like the song. It is like

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Jenny Munn: stupid. How many acronyms there are now. And when you said Search Gpt, I literally went in and I googled it because I'm like, what is that compared to just these other Gpt, so I am still Googling some of these things. One of the biggest problems right now that I think SEO is facing is that.

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Jenny Munn: and this is me on my, and I haven't had a soapbox, because I've just been so overwhelmed and trying to like soak in all of this AI stuff right? And just trying to keep up while trying to do my day job of client work right? It's hard

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ilise: No, but get up on your soapbox. Go ahead.

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Jenny Munn: Yeah, that the words that the acronym SEO has to evolve into something else right? The the discipline of making yourself findable, because when you go to chat, Gpt or Gemini. You're not doing a search, you know. It is called prompting right? Because you want you're doing a command. You're summarizing. You're doing an action. I don't go to chat, gpt like I'm going to go search this like. Sometimes I want information like, what is search, Gpt. I could have easily gone to Chat Gpt.

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ilise: I wondered why you didn't right. Why did you go to Google for that.

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Jenny Munn: You know, because I I turn, you know, personally, and this is something where I have very carefully been watching my own actions of when do I? I used to put up Chat Gpt, Claude Gemini. I used to do this Google and I would for months I would do the same search in all 4 platforms to truly try to understand how they were all different. And then I gave up after a while, because that is a lot of work, and who's got time for that?

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Jenny Munn: But I still, I guess by habit, right when I go to Chat Gpt, I want to like, get stuff done. And I am talking to my handy assistant. And I want to like I'm there for serious business. When I want quick information, I go to Google, because I know I'm going to get the AI overview, which is basically if you guys remember the term featured snippets, which is when Google started placing a snippet of content at the top of search results.

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Jenny Munn: and people went into a tizzy about that right? This is just like the next evolution. This is like the snippet on steroids. I know, if I go to Google, I'm going to get like a quick information like, I'm just going to get the little highlight I want versus. I do feel like when I go to chat, gpt. It's so verbose I'm like, just give me you know what I mean again. I don't want to type. Give me the super quick. I just what is it? Right? So I will go to Google for quick little things along.

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ilise: That's really interesting, though, that idea, because I hear people calling the Gbts or the Ais like an answer.

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ilise: Yeah, you're looking for an answer as opposed to a thing, a product, a resource. But I like that distinction between I want a little, or I want a lot.

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Jenny Munn: Well, and and one of your acronyms was Aeo answer, engine optimization. Right? So, Aeos answer, engine aio is artificial intelligence. Optimization. Geo is generative engine optimization. So everybody is calling all of these things all of these different terms. And it's very fragmented right now. But what it is still kind of is.

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Jenny Munn: it's all about optimization, right? Everybody is.

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ilise: An O in all of them. Yeah.

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Jenny Munn: Everybody's like. Oh, my goodness! My audience is flocking over to AI. I need to optimize myself to get into there, and that is absolutely the wrong way to think about it 1st of all. But going back to gosh, one of your questions was about, but about search, so the word search SEO cannot apply. I don't think I think it's like a misnomer than with what we do, and so we have to evolve the word SEO. But what is it going to be? Is it going to be, I think another acronym you had thrown out? Was Llmo

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Jenny Munn: Llm. Optimization right? And it so Llm sge. Search right like these are all acronyms that kind of describe the whole like what these tools are. Now, it's like either the the model behind it or the actual tool itself. But it is very confusing and overwhelming, and I think that there's no like standard glossary that we can all use, and we don't all have the same language right now. So with SEO,

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Jenny Munn: all of these agencies are coming out. Now. I do sge services, and I'm going to help you get to the top of Chat Gpt, and it's not like that. So it's a little bit. I feel like we're in like the dark days of SEO again. When people are promising, they're gonna get companies, the top of Chat Gpt, and that's just not how it operates.

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Jenny Munn: So it it's everywhere.

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ilise: Yeah. And I mean the the common thread, though, is the oh, the optimization which I'm thinking is what you said about being findable right, just making sure you're findable.

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Jenny Munn: It is, but you can't. Keyword stuff your way into these ais, right? Or what I call Llms. So AI is like the very broad umbrella. Right? Llms. Are the tools. Search generative.

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Jenny Munn: The sge search. Generative engine is where text comes back so an AI could be that they do the like mid journey, they do the graphics. There could be AI that creates video for you like the the sge is where, replies text back. And it does great images now, too. But so an Llm is basically like those tools again, I don't talk semantics because I kind of use different words synonymously as well.

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Jenny Munn: Oh, my goodness, I'm sorry. Now what was the year? No optimization. It's more about. You cannot keyword your way into those right. They are way too sophisticated. They are way too smart. They are going to surface brands, and that's what every SEO now is scrambling to understand. Well, how do they? Surface brands and companies. And when do they do that? And I look at my own queries, I will kind of prompt

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Jenny Munn: things, and to see our companies coming up. I feel like I very rarely ever see companies come up. That's the whole other thing. When I'm in Chat Gpt, unless I'm like doing a search for like a trip, and I'm finally at the stage where I want very specific

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Jenny Munn: companies or information or tours. Then it'll provide like I was looking for sat versus act to understand, for my son, who's a rising junior, I'm like, Oh, which one should he take? Right? So I went to Chatgpt to help quickly understand the difference. And then at 1 point it finally got to the point. I said, Hey, you're in East Cobb. Here are some companies in East Cobb that do that. And they were some of the exact same ones that I had already been seeing people recommend on Facebook.

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Jenny Munn: or I had seen them in Google. But it took a long time to get to that point before I actually saw companies displayed. That's the other thing, too. So you can't optimize. You can't force chat, Gpt, to cite you or to mention you, if that's not what it means. So it's more about right now you can influence, and you can try to do what it takes to get mentioned when they start mentioning companies. But

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Jenny Munn: they're not. I talk about these ais like they're people right, but they're not going to mention you unless they think it's the right time to do that. So

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Jenny Munn: it's it's tough. We're also trying to figure that out who gets mentioned, and why and where, and we do have some best practices that we're trying to tell people and work with companies to do. But it's the Wild West right now, a little bit.

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ilise: And what are some of those best practices? Jenny.

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Jenny Munn: Yes. So one of the things that you mentioned well, FAQ, right, and I'm still a believer that anything you do that's good for your audience is going to be good for a search engine. It is going to be good for an AI AI loves comparison content right? So you think like, what's the best website? Cms, is it shopify? Is it Wordpress? Well, let's compare it right? So because these ais are looking to like extract and find information, and they will pull from.

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Jenny Munn: They will pull from sources right? They might steal the information, but at some point they know it's you. So it's a lot of what we've been saying are SEO best practices. You have to have a website that is crawlable where the the AI. The bots, can crawl through the back end of the code. So a fast loading website, it's clean. You don't have super huge images that where your website takes 20 seconds to load because no AI bot, no search engine. Bot's going to take the time to do that. So

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Jenny Munn: a good best practice for a modern website that's clean and fast. There's something called schema structured markup, which is kind of code in the back end, saying what type of organization you are. So it is taking a little bit of technical stuff to kind of what we call markup your content. So the bots can read it and understand what type of business you are. And then being an authority in your space. And again, I feel like when I explain this. It's nothing that's like

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Jenny Munn: crazy or brand new right being an authority in your space, owning your expertise.

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Jenny Munn: A lot of what AI is looking for is for your what you say to be corroborated out there on various known websites. That's why everybody says, Oh, are you on Reddit? Are you referenced in something in your industry? Are you in Linkedin like? Is what you're saying? Corroborated and validated by outside external sources.

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Jenny Munn: But that was like SEO, too, right? Where 50% of how well you rank was, how are you doing away from your website and do other sources also back you up. Do you have those backlinks and mentions right? Because you cannot live in your own little bubble and not ever be referenced by the outside world. If you're ever going to get ranked or displayed.

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ilise: And it sounds like you're talking mostly about content marketing. Then, right.

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Jenny Munn: Yes, a large part is content marketing. However, if your website is taking 20 seconds to load, no matter how great your content is, it's probably not going to be crawled right, or you could have great content, and I think it will speak for itself. And you will. I mean hopefully. You are promoting it and

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Jenny Munn: have some kind of a network. And you're part of an industry where you're just not blogging all day long in a bubble, you know. So you do have to be a great business or brand doing good things now for us service providers

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Jenny Munn: that's not going to be us necessarily right like we can't be all out there. But I love how you teach right like you. You're getting out there, and you're owning your niche, and that's what I think 50% of the battle is like claiming your niche and who you want to work with, and then your world expands, and

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Jenny Munn: this will be picked up right like. How else would Chat Gpt have known these tiny little tutoring companies based on where I am right? So having your niche and your knowing your people and knowing your world is, I mean

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Jenny Munn: most of it.

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ilise: And one question that's coming to mind is something that's been coming up a lot lately, which is whether I feel like I know how you're going to answer this. But I still want to ask you, do you need a website? Because a lot of people, especially people who are just starting their business.

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ilise: You know, the website is not necessarily. It takes a long time to get it done, and it's not usually finished. And there are a lot of perfectionists out there, so they don't really put it up, even if it's imperfect.

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ilise: And lately I've been saying, especially if you're a service provider, and you're doing a lot of marketing on Linkedin, using the 3 tools of the simplest marketing plan. Then maybe you don't need a website. But what do you think, Jenny?

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Jenny Munn: So I keep going back. So I see what you're saying. And in some ways that kind of sounds nice to have to, especially giving up any expenses related to that or your website breaks again, or something it gets hacked into right. But you can't.

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Jenny Munn: You can't let your whole presence. I don't think, be a hundred percent on a domain or property or platform that you don't own or control, because who's not to say that some billionaire might take over Linkedin and gate things or make you pay for it, or something might go away. So you still have to have your home, whether you don't need to. Maybe

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Jenny Munn: blog as often as you did. Maybe you need to like, have a presence on Linkedin, even if it's a 1 page website. I still think you need your own. You need to own something right, even if most of your time is spent on Linkedin, I still don't think you should ever put

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Jenny Munn: all of your eggs in a basket

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Jenny Munn: from one of these social media giants. I think it's risky.

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ilise: Yeah, that makes sense. I guess I would modify my advice lately to say, Don't worry if you don't have it yet, but work toward it so that you can get the marketing going. Don't let it be the obstacle. I have several clients who, you know, are not marketing themselves yet, because their website isn't done. And I think.

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Jenny Munn: Oh, I absolutely again. I'm like, I wish I could go back to. I think about this sometimes. Should I just let go of everything I've done and start with a 1 page website for this kind of AI evolution, right? Because a lot of my blogs and a lot of my content. I was like it's outdated.

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Jenny Munn: I talk about SEO best practices for my blogs. I love blogging over the past 15 years right? But it didn't reference. AI at all. All of my checklists, all of my ebooks, all of my trainings, everything I put together is now irrelevant, because if it doesn't touch on the latest SEO best practices and forget it. Let me just scrap and start over and have a 1 page website, right? So I even thought about that for a moment, and then I was like, I can't let go of all my stuff right. But yes, nobody.

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ilise: Can't you get AI to insert the phrase AI strategy, and just in everything, ing.

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Jenny Munn: You know you could. That sounds a little keyword, stuffy, you know. But you know. No, I don't think not having a website would ever stop you from getting a client. So if someone says, and they're just living in, I know your world, which is I don't know perfectionism or something else. So, not having a website should not stop you from going out to try to get business. It's just you don't want to build your whole

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Jenny Munn: freelance or consulting, you know, service providing world on top of a platform. You don't own right.

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ilise: I would agree with that. All right. Good.

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ilise: all right. Well, here's a question. If you serve multiple markets that are very different. How do you optimize and make yourself findable to each of those markets? And I would add, like, how many is too many? Is a landing page. Still, the best way do blog posts. Help this. So you've kind of referenced this a little bit in the last few minutes. But what would you say to that question?

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Jenny Munn: Yeah. So I absolutely think that if you have multiple markets like I do have education. Clients find me by the keyword because I can see it in my Google search console stuff around

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Jenny Munn: K. 12, SEO or SEO for K. 12. Education, right? And they land not on my homepage, but on my specific services page. But I also have, you know, portfolio or case studies. I should say I've got case studies and they point back to that services page I've got blog posts about.

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Jenny Munn: I've got this one again. It's outdated now, but it's about Facebook ads for K. 12, because I was talking about some best practices that were 4 years ago right? And people find that blog post all the time, and they'll follow that link to my services page right, and they'll kind of see that I work in K. 12. So, having what you call landing page, or a page dedicated to your industry right? But it's not just like you can't put up

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Jenny Munn: 10 pages. I think that that's really hard to do as a solo consultant or a small agency right?

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ilise: AI should be able to do that for us.

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Jenny Munn: AI could do that. But you just have to be careful of AI generic content that's not going to like. Drag your whole site down because your whole site now is going to sound like a robot. So I'm a fan of AI content, but not when it's like, well, you know this, and we would always. This goes without saying to your world and to you. But mass produced generic blog content is not going to win anyone over. It should certainly help you, for sure. But I do think, having a dedicated page

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Jenny Munn: for your and talking about your why are you in that industry? What is your experience what clients like? I'll put my education client Logos on that. I do have e-commerce. I've got case studies that they all link to each other, and I've got those Logos and that talk there right? So you know, I was part of these industries, Nace and Ednet, and whatever I talk about those on their dedicated pages. If I had 20 industries that'd be really hard to show my expertise. But I have 2, and so it does make it easier the more you niche.

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ilise: What, Jenny, what does ee a t stand for? Do you know.

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Jenny Munn: Yes, so experience it, doesn't. This. The second E is not

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ilise: Expertise.

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Jenny Munn: Authoritativeness and trustworthiness. Yes, yes, EEAT. I'm like, but you know those 2 kind of are they the same thing right? The 2 e's. But regardless what? What that is saying also is that I mean.

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Jenny Munn: there is a difference in content when you have 1st person experience and can put that into your content. And that's where Google's algorithm favors the experts. Right? And so I'm always like, I don't want to. I need to talk to the experts. Find me the expert in your company, and that's the content we're going to surface and start with, because I could

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Jenny Munn: ask, chatgpt like, what is it like to be a principal and write me a page to help my education companies target principals right? But getting the feedback from the person who is in the classroom doing walkthroughs with the principal is

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Jenny Munn: a hundred times over. If I concede in some of that going to win out over Chat Gpt all day long, and so that that experience and expertise has to come across. Still, that's why it would be hard to have like 20 service pages on your website. But if you can truly talk to your industries and put that into your content, then you're gonna do well all day long that just has to like come that firsthand knowledge. And that's what AI is looking for as well. Right? What we keep saying is with AI

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Jenny Munn: being able to write good content.

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Jenny Munn: I mean, that's just going to like Flood, the Internet again, right? But what these AI bots and what they're looking for and what Google is looking to surface is the experts, and that's why you've got to show that you are a brand. You got to like what I keep calling like you've got to like. Put your you know your stake into the ground of what you can own. What is your topic, and make sure that that's out there everywhere, and that's what I tell my clients and my

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Jenny Munn: companies right now. That's what it's going to take to win is owning your expertise and making sure that that's out there.

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ilise: Interesting. Yeah. So more about your niche and your point of view, and your voice.

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Jenny Munn: Exactly in your audience. It it all comes back to. This is what I really think is the piece that we don't know yet. Is our audiences right? So talking about people who are hiring us, I do see it where I talk to my SEO colleagues and agencies.

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Jenny Munn: They're not getting leads like SEO, I think, is like, I do think my audience does believe that SEO is dying, and maybe they are looking for chat. Gpt optimization. Right? So, even though I know there's not a difference. I do need to go after that term, because I need to stay relevant and aligned with my audience, and then I can educate them. But I need to use the language they're using. And that's why who your audience is, and your audience is probably not like, unless you guys are attracting a super technical

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Jenny Munn: client clientele, they might be over using perplexity or Claude. But if, like the general business owner still could be on Linkedin, and they might be using chat. We don't need to know what the whole world is doing. As far as AI. We need to know, for our own businesses, for our own leads. What is our audience doing? Are they going to Google? Are they going to Linkedin? Are they on Chat Gpt, and just like focus on who we're trying to attract. And that makes all of this AI so much less overwhelming. I think.

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ilise: And one thing I heard on a webinar this week. You tell me if you know whether or not this is true is that chatgpt in terms of what it surfaced favors Youtube videos, whereas Gemini, which owns Google and Google Docs, or vice versa, actually favors Google docs in terms of what they surface. Do you know, if that's true.

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Jenny Munn: You know that? Because that's part of well, where do I put my content? And where do I time? Right? It used to be the thing. If you're going to be in chat, Gpt, you've got to be in bing right because Chatgpt was pulling from Microsoft right and copilot. And so if you're not found in Bing, then you're not going to get into Chat Gpt. Well, also, this week I read that that chat. Gpt surfaced something that was only in Google because some SEO person did a test. They they blocked

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Jenny Munn: Bing. They blocked Microsoft, and they only had in Google. And sure enough, it was found in Chat Gpt, and so it's like they are crawling. And then also right. The data was only trained on information up to 2023, and 24. But that's not true, because now they do have web crawlers. Who can find, you say, what was the result of the braves game last night, is it? Last night? Tuesday? No. 2 nights ago? Right? So it will surface the information so it can find up to date. So

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Jenny Munn: you know, I don't know if we can definitively say you've got to have it in Youtube. And you've got to have this in Google docs like.

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Jenny Munn: I just don't think we can definitively say that. Yet I think we're still trying to figure it out for sure.

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Jenny Munn: Yes, oh, such a great question. And so the top of Google is now the AI overviews. And at least that was another term. I think you threw out was AI for Google or AI overviews. And so what I have seen is that either information is very specific up there, or you know they are referencing and citing the sources right? Which is nice versus right, like Chat Gpt might not provide a link, or at least so you got the link, and you've got the source, and you can see the brand up there.

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Jenny Munn: I what I've seen is that mostly, if you're already ranking on page one, or you're pretty visible, you are more likely to be up in the in the AI overviews. So you got, and that's the thing with like SEO is that you can't just like SEO once, and then hope you stay there like if your client is continuing to do the good

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Jenny Munn: business practices, and maybe they are doing their content marketing. They are still out there. They are still getting mentions, or I don't even want to say the word backlinks. But if they're continuing to keep up hopefully, they do stay at the top unless they have a super savvy new competitor that comes in. But I think keeping up with what content if it is comparison? If it is FAQ

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Jenny Munn: there are tools like I use semrush, and that tells me what keywords are producing an AI overview for my clients. Right? It's got like the fun little AI Logo, if it's an AI overview ranking versus like a regular Google ranking. So I do keep up that way with tracking. But again, like, I don't

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Jenny Munn: overly worry about it, because we know that clicks are decreasing anyway. So is he doing it just like, is he obsessed with it? Just because for brand recognition? Or does he think he's getting clicks with it? So yes, it is good to be there. But you you kind of like, have to be.

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Jenny Munn: You have to have a lot of searches like that, like you know what I mean. So I think, maintaining all the good best practices, and keeping up and just not letting things settle and thinking. Oh, I don't need to do any marketing anymore. Right? Like, you can't let your foot off the gas necessarily, because there's a competitor waiting right behind you to like. Take your spot and take that link. So keeping up and keeping up with your audience and

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Jenny Munn: doing what you can. Yeah, I think, is going to be the best way, and but but evolving.

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Jenny Munn: If someone takes over and understanding well, what is it about that piece of content? And then you have to like, analyze my content versus this competitor. Why are they being favored? Let me try to make a few tweaks and see if that changes it so still very much tweaking, optimizing, testing, looking, because there is still just no definitive rules, yet that makes it hard.

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Jenny Munn: Okay? So great question and Faqs have been popular for the fact for the last few years. But I again, I think not only like does do search engines and bots like love. That style. And part of that is because you know, the people also asked, if you're on Google, and you kind of scroll down, and there's like 4 questions, and if you toggle one, it opens up like 6 more. Those are the people also asked, and those are phrased as questions.

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Jenny Munn: So when the paas are called, people also asked are becoming popular, the FAQ content became popular. But as a user I love FAQ content because I'm always like oh, what did I not think to ask? So I love writing FAQ. Content for clients about their brand? Or here are some of the top questions. But what I'm seeing now is FAQ content on services pages.

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Jenny Munn: I just saw a really good example of it. So on. An I don't want to say competitor, but another SEO AI consultant because I'm looking at their websites to see how they're promoting themselves and positioning at the bottom of their AI SEO page. They had a list of questions, a Q&A. And I thought that was so good. So I'm seeing it at the bottom of

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Jenny Munn: location pages or service pages. Certainly. Product pages. If you think e-commerce right? There's faqs about products that you can get right? So I I mean? Yes, faqs everywhere, for sure, and not just because of it, because it's great for users.

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ilise: Yeah. And I also heard on that webinar the other day that Q&A format for the answer engine is what they're going to recognize basically as an answer.

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Jenny Munn: Yeah, it certainly does give a very strong signal, but don't turn every single piece of content you ever owned into a question. But certainly think about the questions people have. And again, I think that's just great audience optimization.

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ilise: Exactly. We learn a lot that way, too.

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Jenny Munn: Absolutely.

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ilise: All right. One last question, Jenny. I would love to know the most important lesson you've learned, whether it's about your business or the services that you offer, but just share that with us. If you would.

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Jenny Munn: That's so good. That's such a hard question. I definitely think

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Jenny Munn: the ability to filter and kind of stay the course. It has been really key, because I have sat like for the past year. Again, I've just been trying to absorb all of this AI, and keep up with all the trends happening and keeping up. And I'm like, I'm so worried I'm gonna fall behind. But at some point I'm like, Okay, I've got to move on. I've got to claim my, my.

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Jenny Munn: my, take on this space and move forward and stop trying to keep up because it does like every day there's something changing right. And so I do feel like our ability

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Jenny Munn: to like at some point filter right now and know what's important and who's important, and go back to like keeping my eye on the ball, and who I'm trying to serve. And what do they need? Not with the whole world? I sat on a Webinar. I had no business being on about how to go to these super technical websites and create these chat bots. And after I'm like, I'm not technical, I feel like I need to keep up and know what this is. But I actually don't need to. So I feel like right now being able to.

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Jenny Munn: What I call user peripherals like stay focused. But at the same time, like, Know, what's going on is important is really important right now, because it's so overwhelming right? Like it. It's like debilitating, almost, you know, right now. So I think, keep staying the course and using your peripherals is one of is this is gonna be key right now.

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ilise: I love that. I mean, I always think focus is the key, anyway, but especially when there's so much going on. And it's the hardest to be focused because you just don't know which direction. But you just have to trust your gut, basically and

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ilise: make a decision and then change later. If it's the wrong decision.

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Jenny Munn: Exactly. Yep.

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ilise: Awesome, all right. Well, tell the people where they can find you online, Jenny, spell it out for us.

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Jenny Munn: I am@jennymunn.com. And right now I tell people I would love for you to follow me on Linkedin, or join my newsletter, because I am sharing if you care about AI. So that's what I say is AI related to SEO. That is my space. I'm trying to teach people how you know what to do and how AI relates to SEO. So if you're trying to keep up with SEO, and now you need SEO

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Jenny Munn: and AI are together now, right? You can't talk about SEO anymore. If AI is not a part of it that's find me on Linkedin or Jennymunn.com.

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ilise: Awesome, and that's mun with 2 n's.

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Jenny Munn: Yes. Correct.

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ilise: Alright great! Thank you so much, Jenny.

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Jenny Munn: Absolutely. Thank you guys so much. This was so much fun.

As I mentioned in the last Quick Tip, I love to say that “Questions are the answer to everything.”

Not only when you’re doubting yourself, but also…

• When you want more engagement…
• When you’re frustrated with a client…
• When you don’t know how much to charge…
• When you want to stand out at a networking event…

And in countless other situations, I always start with a question.

How do questions help, and what questions should you ask?

Watch me explain in the “Best Bits” from this month’s Simplest Marketing Plan Office Hours:

And while you’re at it, take a peek at the “Ink Insights” video with the awesome sketch summing it all up from my favorite Inspirational Communication Consultant, Antonio Meza…

(Do you recognize “cartoon” me in the visor?)

Now here’s my question for you:

Do you have a favorite “icebreaker” question you like to ask when networking in person? Share here!

That’s all for now - thanks for reading.

Or yours?

On Episode 532, Michael and I covered a lot of ground, including:

• The 4 things he does to market his business
• Why you shouldn’t try to do what the “big guys” do

In his email 5/30/25 newsletter, Michael wrote, "It may seem logical to copy "the big guys" when putting together your own marketing approach. After all, they are big and successful; they must know what they are doing, right? Well, yes... but. What works for them doesn't usually work for us."

I had a slightly different take that I wanted to discuss. 

Because often, creative freelancers want to mimic what I do for my marketing.

But I've been in business for more than 35 years. That means I have a strong foundation of content marketing (which can have a really long tail, as they say) that has been building for a long, long time.

There are people who've been getting my email newsletter, Quick Tips, since I started them in the early 2000's.

Some people even remember receiving the pre-cursor print version (from the 90s!) of that marketing tool, The Art of Self Promotion. (This was before we called it "content marketing.")

So my strategy wouldn't make sense for a beginner, who would need to generate clients sooner rather than later. (BTW, that's what The Simplest Marketing Plan is all about.)

Anyway, we talked about that and much more!

It’s a meaty one so listen here (and below): 

Here's another good one from Michael about email newsletter stats.

And you can connect with him on LinkedIn too.

If you want my help figuring all of this out, take advantage of my free mentoring session. 

And if you like what you hear, we’d love it if you write a review, subscribe here and sign up for Quick Tips from Marketing Mentor.