Vitamin D is critical for health.

Vitamin D promotes your immune system, and your body needs vitamin D in ample quantities to provide  protection against microbial invaders like bacteria and viruses (including the H1N1 ‘swine flu’ virus).

Are you a good host (to disease), or a bad one?

Recent studies show that as many as 87% of adults are vitamin D deficient by late winter, and 61% remain deficient even during summer months.

My guest this week is Steven V. Joyal, MD, Vice President of Scientific Affairs at the Life Extension Foundation

Did you know these facts about Vitamin D?

• It benefits cardiovascular function
• Women with higher blood levels of Vitamin D have reduced breast cancer.
• Vitamin D also helps prostate issues
• Vitamin D is not a vitamin! (explained in the interview)
• Current levels of supplementation frequently recommended (such as the RDA) are inadequate – listen to find out what is the proper dose.
• 30 minutes of sun exposure at noon = 10,000 i.u. Vitamin D.
• Learn about a safe and healthy level of sun exposure.

Carrie’s favorite source of Vitamin D:  Nordic Naturals – Lemon Flavored Arctic-D Cod Liver Oil

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Dr. Wolk-Weiss is a Chiropractor and author of Ten Commandments for a Healthy Lifestyle.

We’re talking about NAET (Allergy Elimination Technique).

Let’s face it, allergies are a pain.

Avoiding foods and other substances that cause reactions is time consuming and frustrating.

NAET utilizes acupressure to retrain the brain to not overreact to allergens.

NAET is not painful and can be done even on babies. While it’s impossible to say exactly how many treatment sessions a patient will need, typical scenario is 6-12 sessions,  making NAET less expensive than a life of allergy suffering!

Dr. Perry shares stories of individuals whose lifestyles have dramatically changed because of their allergies resolving thanks to NAET.

Read about NAET and its founder: Naet: Say Good-Bye to Your Allergies

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My guest this week is Nora Coffey, president of the HERS Foundation.

Nora was a guest on the show about a year ago. You can listen to that interview here. Now she joins us again to talk about her new book  (co-authored with Rick Schweikert).

The H Word: The diagnostic studies to evaluate symptoms, alternatives in treatment, and coping with the aftereffects of hysterectomy.

If you think you don’t need to listen to this interview because noone is telling you to get a hysterectomy (castration) right now, I respectfully disagree.

Every woman should inform herself NOW before she’s faced with the decision.

photo credit: cliff1066™

After talking with Nora these two times, reading her book and from my own life hearing stories of women and their experience with hysterectomy (castration), I am convinced that there is a dreadful LACK of appreciation and understanding of the purpose of the female organs – on the part of medical professionals and we women ourselves.

The H Word tells you why hysterectomy is so commonly recommended, the diagnostic studies that should be performed first to evaluate suspect diagnoses, the treatment alternatives that exist, the benefits and risks of those treatments, and probably most importantly – the lifelong functions of the uterus and ovaries, and the lifelong consequences of their removal (castration).

I urge you to listen to this interview and spread the word amongst women you care about!

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photo credit: dslrninja

What Are Excitotoxins?

Just as it sounds, excitotoxins “excite” the body tissues, starting with the tongue (wow! that tastes good! want more!) – but not in a good way.  Many of us think of “Chinese restaurant syndrome” and MSG (monosodium glutamates) when we hear the word.

Glutamates exist naturally in some natural, healthy foods but your body is able to handle those without problems. During certain processes (for instance the refining of foods) these are turned into “free glutamates” that do damage to the body.  Sadly, even “organic/natural” foods that are highly processed can contain these excitotoxins.

Mindy’s free worksheet with more information on excitotoxins and how to avoid them is available here:  Nourish Your Children

Mentioned on the show:

- The Weston A. Price Foundation

To win a copy of Mindy’s ebook:

Simply leave a comment below (with a valid email address so I can contact you). The winner will be chosen and notified on Wednesday, October 21 at NOON Eastern time.

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We’re talking today about the wonders of coconut oil, its many benefits and uses.

John has offered to giveaway a jar of coconut oil to a listener!

Please leave a comment below to qualify.

Tell us your favorite way to use coconut oil.

A winner will be chosen on Friday, September 18th at noon Eastern time.

You can also buy Nutiva products online.

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After a difficult and protracted labor with her first child, Jennifer was left feeling disappointed and depressed.

And she wanted answers. Her search led to the creation of her Prenatal Dance Fitness program.

Jennifer’s DVD helps  women connect with their bodies,  relax and be more comfortable during pregnancy, stay in shape and prepare for an easier (and shorter!) delivery.

“Women have danced to prepare for labor and celebrate birth for centuries,” says Jennifer.

What’s more, many women naturally dance during labor to ease their pain and help bring baby into the world.

Jennifer is giving away a DVD to one NMTR listener!

I would like to limit this giveaway to just the pregnant ladies.

If you’re expecting a baby and would like to win the DVD, leave a comment below (with a valid email address so I can contact you if you win), and your due date.

The winner will randomly be chosen on September 2 at NOON Eastern time.

Leave your comment before then!

Follow Jennifer on Twitter

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Clinical depression affects 15-20% of pregnant women, sometimes becoming so severe that the moms-to-be attempt suicide.

Mothers of multiples are at even higher risk with more than 25% suffering during pregnancy and postpartum.

Many moms want to avoid taking prescription medication to manage their depression during pregnancy and nursing, so are there viable alternatives?

“Dr. Shosh” discusses some of the various natural treatment options available for pregnant women today.

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(Now defunct, Life Learning magazine is currently integrated into Natural Life magazine.)

Natural Life is the brainchild of Wendy and her husband Rolf and has been in publication since 1976, allowing them to “unschool” their children at home while they ran their business. It is a refreshing publication that families who endeavor to life simply, respect the earth, and educate their children at home will love.

Wendy also talked about her newest book called Life Learning: Lessons from the Educational Frontier. It’s a collection of essays on unschooling. You can see Wendy’s other books on Amazon here

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In this interview, Dr. Natasha talks about how gut health impacts emotional and psychological health, how the GAPS diet came about and the science behind it, and helpful tips for implementing the diet.

Natural Moms Talk Radio listeners have been offered a discount code (enter NMTR at checkout).  Any new customer who uses this code will receive 10% off all products on their first order.

Get more info on the diet and order the book:  http://www.gapsdiet.com/

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He is  a psychologist, nationally certified school psychologist and author of The Shut-Down Learner:  Helping Your Academically Discouraged Child.

Our topic today is the “high spatial learner”, children who thrive with visual-spatial learning (the so called “Lego kid”) but who may struggle with learning in a traditional classroom setting.

Within the first few pages of the book, I recognized my 8 year old son, who can build anything and pick out songs by ear on the piano, but who has difficulty reading and following instructions. If you have a child with this learning style, the book will help you appreciate your child’s unique strengths and point you to resources to assist them so they don’t become discouraged.

Follow Dr. Selznick on Twitter!

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What if everything you thought you knew about postpartum fitness was wrong?

This week my guest is Helene Byrne. She is a nationally recognized prenatal and postpartum fitness expert and founder of BeFit-Mom.

Helene is the author of the award winning DVD “Bounce Back Fast! Post Natal Core Conditioning” and the acclaimed book “Exercise After Pregnancy: How to Look and Feel Your Best“.

Helene is on a mission to educate moms about some of the common misconceptions regarding pospartum exercise, including the fact that so many moms are doing ab work totally wrong! Many fitness routines, including the ever popular Pilates, are simply not designed for the postpartum body, and some exercises can do more harm than good.

Helene’s DVD and book offer an effective exercise routine that a postpartum mom can begin at anytime  – even hours after her birth, or years after – to help her recover from childbirth and the effects of pregnancy.

Note to moms: If you’re doing endless crunches to get your abs back in shape with little results, you MUST listen to this show!

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Dr. Bill is a Dentist with 30 years experience. Though an early promoter of fluoride, he has become an outspoken opponent of the overuse of fluoride and urges parents to inform themselves of the risks.

There are several problems with fluoride. For one, it has not been proven to be effective in preventing tooth decay. Second, there are health risks associated with the use (and overuse, which is the current situation with fluoridated water in most U.S. cities) of fluoride. These include: lowered IQ, endocrine disorders such as thyroid disease, weakened bone, severe enamel fluorosis, rheumatoid or arthritic-like pain, and others.

Interesting facts on the risks of fluoride:

– Researchers reporting in the Oct 6 2007 British Medical Journal indicate that fluoridation was never was proven safe or effective and may be unethical.

For more reading, visit the Fluoride Action Network website.

This is an hour long show. Please be sure to listen to it in its entirety!

Below is a video of Dr. Bill talking about some of the concerns with fluoridation. Please spread the word about this show – it’s too important for us not to be informed.

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Eating animal products and meat from grass fed animals is the environmentally friendly choice.

Animals raised in confinement are unhealthy and not eating their natural diet. Therefore they require antibiotics and hormones in order to turn a profit for their owners. Their meat and milk is also much more likely to be contaminated with e.coli, salmonella and other pathogens.

When you buy meat and milk from a local, small farmer, you are supporting healthy green eating! Not to mention that grass fed meat is tastier and much healthier. One reason for this is because of the higher amounts of certain nutrients, such as Omega 3 fatty acids and CLA in grass fed.

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Patrice is a Christian unschooling mom of 3 and a doula in training.

In her book Empowered to Birth Naturally, she shares the story of her 3 births. The first took place in a hospital, the second at a birthing center, and the third at home.

I loved Patrice’s book because in a straightforward, nonjudgmental way, she illustrates from personal experience how much our attitudes affect our birthing experiences, and how interfering with the natural childbirth process really does become a “slippery slope” leading to more interventions.

You can find her book at Amazon.com

EMPOWERED TO BIRTH NATURALLY: One Woman’s Journey to Homebirth

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She shares how she ended up with a “real” brick and mortar store and some of the challenges she has experienced running the business while being mom to her 3 and 5 year old children (you’ll hear her little ones playing in the background during this interview!).

She also runs Bloom, a non profit organization that supports and educates moms in all aspects of mothering.

Did you see our special series last week on natural beauty treatments?

Amazon.com is currently offering special deals on organic foods. Annie’s Homegrown is up to 45% off regular price. Other brands on sale includes Seventh Generation, Newman’s, Bob’s Red Mill, Tastybaby, and more.

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Cynthia is also the author of Feeding the Whole Family, a wonderful primer for anyone who wants to eat foods closer to their natural state, but especially helpful for moms who are cooking for people of different ages.

You can put a meal on the table that puts a smile on the hubby’s face as well as small kids and an infant – without spending all day in the kitchen.

You can read my review of the cookbook here: Feeding the Whole Family cookbook review

Cynthia gave me permission to post a sample recipe so I offer you:

Three Sisters Stew

1 cup dried Christmas lima beans*, soaked 6-8 hours
4 cups stock or water
2 teaspoons ground cumin
1 tablespoon extra-virgin olive oil or ghee (note from Carrie: ghee is clarified butter and it belongs in every kitchen!)
1 medium onion, chopped
2 teaspoons sea salt
3 cloves garlic, minced
2 teaspoons dry oregano
½ teaspoon cinnamon
1 teaspoon chili powder
2-3 cups delicatta winter squash, cut in chunks
1 14 -ounce can diced tomatoes with green chilies
1 ½ cups fresh or frozen corn

Optional garnish:
½ cup grated cheese

Drain soaking water off beans. Place beans, 2 cups of stock or water and 1 teaspoon of cumin in a pot; bring to boil. Cover and simmer until beans are tender (50-60 minutes) or pressure-cook (45 minutes).

Heat a 4-quart pot, add oil. Add onion, salt and garlic; sauté until onion is soft (5 minutes). Add cumin, oregano, and cinnamon and chili powder and cook for about 30 seconds. Add squash and tomatoes, bring to a simmer and cook until squash is soft, (about 20 minutes).

Add ½-1 cup stock or water if mixture is dry. Add cooked beans and corn; simmer until corn is tender. Adjust seasoning to your taste. Serve hot with grated cheese garnish if desired.

Preparation time: 1 hour and 10 minutes
Makes 6-8 servings

FOR BABIES 6 MONTHS & OLDER: Reserve some peeled squash cubes, steam well and puree.
FOR BABIES 10 MONTHS & OLDER: Puree some cooked Christmas limas before adding to stew and puree with steamed squash cubes. Serve beans in small amounts to babies.

* kidney, pink or pinto beans can also be used.

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KerryAnn has been eating a traditional foods diet for years and has some great advice for moms who want their kids to eat real food. She answers such questions as:

• What are “nutrient dense” foods?
• Feeding children nutrient dense traditional foods.
• How do I get my kids to take cod liver oil?
• How to tweak your food preparation methods for maximum nutrition.
• Dealing with picky kids or husbands.
• Tips for using alternative grains.

KerryAnn also shares some information on having success with a gluten free diet and the health issues she faced before going GF.

Her traditional foods forum has lots of resources and members so you can learn more. If you need more assistance, KerryAnn offers consulting and custom designed, specialty menu mailers.

More related resources you might enjoy:

Green smoothies for kids
Cooking with Coconut Flour (see Carrie’s post about coconut flour pancakes!)
Buy coconut flour in bulk online

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I apologize for this week’s “lo fi” show. I’m sick and also have a vomiting 6 year old, so we’re couching out for a few days. I didn’t want this week’s show to be any later so I decided to publish the interview as is.

My guest this week is Lafe Larson of Lafe’s Natural Bodycare.

While some skin care companies are concerned about BPA in their products, Lafe has gone a step further.

His company recently released the first-of-its-kind organic certified baby line packaged in “baby-safe” plastic, free of estrogenic chemicals.

Listen to find out what Carrie’s favorite product was and how she put it to the ultimate test!

In addition to safe skin care for babies and mothers, Lafe’s offers deodorants and intimate products, free of questionable ingredients such as parabens, glycol, PEGs, and sodium laureth.

Lafe also helps clear up some of the confusion around plastics and their affects on the body. You can also read more information at EAFREE.com

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Lara shares tips on how to create these spaces even if your home is small or siblings are sharing a room. On her site Designers Call you can learn more about her interior design services for budget conscious families.

We’re also hearing from new mom Jill Fehrenbacher of Inhabitots. She is a green design consultant and blogger.

Inhabitots is all about sustainable design and green products for the next generation. Jill helps women keep their sense of style even after becoming a busy mom.

Mentioned on the show:

Elimination Communication – reducing the need for diapers

gDiapers – the cloth/disposable hybrid diaper

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First I spoke with New Zealand’s own “ecoman” Malcolm Rands of EcoStore.
After years of success in New Zealand, EcoStore has brought their products to the US.
Malcolm wants to educate Americans about the benefits of using plant-based ingredients for household cleaning, and shares the results that New Zealanders have experienced in terms of family health.  Many people have seen eczema and allergy symptoms improve or disappear all together.

Next you’ll hear from Heather Legler of Modern American Housewife.

She is sharing her love and knowledge of homemaking with us. Our topic is the Art and Science of Homemaking. Check out some of Heather’s book recommendations:

Art of Homemaking and Joy of Homemaking by Daryl Hoole
Organized Home by Real Simple
Worlds Healthiest Foods by George Mateljan
Clutter’s Last Stand: It’s Time to De-Junk Your Life! by Don Aslett

Now about our giveaway!

One commenter will win a Simply Pilates DVD and book set by Jennifer Pohlman. The DVD is a complete beginner or intermediate Pilates workout and the book has full color instructions to make learning the moves easier.

In order to win, just leave a comment below. The winner will be chosen on Wednesday, February 4th at (12:00) NOON Eastern time.

Leave one comment to enter once. To increase your chances of winning, do each of the following:

• Mention the contest on your blog, linking to this page
• Twitter about the contest
• Email your friends

Let me know what you did to help spread the word in your comment and please leave a valid email address so I can contact you!

(You must be a resident of the USA or Canada in order to win.)

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This week on the show I spoke with Jennifer Vetere, co-owner of a small, local handmade business for babies, toddlers and their moms at Made By Moms.

No doubt you’ve come across blog posts or news stories about the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act (CPSIA).

Just What Is the CPSIA?

According to Jennifer,

The act, in a nutshell, states that all objects intended for a child 12 or under to use must be “final product, component tested” for lead.

This means that every component in the final product must be tested to meet requirements — the lowest cost I’ve found (at an actual lab) has been $75 per component.

This translates into costs ranging from $375 for a bib to over $600 for one of our Take-Me-Too blankets — quilts wouldn’t even be feasible, as there are usually quite a few fabrics that go into them.

This cost wouldn’t be a burden for a company who manufactures 1,000 of an item, but I make (perhaps) ten blankets or bibs in a line before moving on to my next one.

The worst part is that it covers ORGANIC fabrics — so even my certified-by-the-GOTS Harmony Art blankets would have to be tested.

In addition to hand crafted items, used items for kids will be affected by the CPSIA. Jennifer states:

This act doesn’t just affect handmade, however, it affects our second-hand stores and libraries as well.

Come February 10th, anything that has not been tested becomes a “hazardous material” and banned from sale, trade, or gift.

Libraries with children’s books are face with the option of either a) defying the law and accepting they might be liable for penalties, b) destroying their books or c) testing every children’s book in stock.

According to http://www.wo.ala.org/districtdispatch/?p=1322:

General Counsel of the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) that would require public, school, academic and museum libraries to either remove all their books or ban all children under 12 from visiting the facilities, beginning on February 10.

“I sincerely doubt that Congress intended to require libraries to be subject to this law, but if Congress does not act soon, libraries across the country will be forced to remove books from the shelves, rather than keep them available to serve the educational needs of our nation’s children.”

At this time of enormous economic upheaval, where more families than ever are using our
library system, this is an unconscionable decision to force them to make.

In addition, second hand retailers face the same situation.  Test, be liable or stop dealing in second-hand children’s articles like clothing, toys and cribs.  Again, at a time when families are relying on the cost savings of places like the Salvation Army and Goodwill, this is unfathomable.

Jennifer continues:

I hope to raise awareness as to how much this will devastate many stores, artisans and small businesses throughout the United States. Many people devoted to green living are reliant on small-scale manufacturers to supply organic, quality, safe cloth diapers, bibs, blankets and clothing — these same people will be at a loss when the government’s good intentions backfire. Come the 10th, I won’t be able to sell, trade, donate or give away my stock — it will have to go right in the garbage, something that stabs me right in the heart.

February 10th has been dubbed “Bankruptcy Day” because of the number of children’s product retailers and manufacturers who will be forced to close their doors.

photo credit: shortfatkid

photo credit: imcountingufoz

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Margarita began sewing cloth diapers for her newborn baby in 2004. By 2005, she had a business in her basement,  Swaddlebees.

Today, Swaddlebees and Blueberry Diapers, McClure’s designer line of premier cloth diapers are favorites of style conscious moms around the world.

On the show we talk about what kinds of women are using cloth diapers, why they choose them, and the benefits of cloth diapering.

Margarita also shares which diapers are her most popular among moms in different parts of the world and secrets to making cloth diapers work for your situation and your baby.

Swaddlebees and Blueberry Diapers…

· Contain no bleach, no chlorine and no pesticides on the cotton fibers.

· Use only organic cotton to insure 100% good health and safety for America’s babies.

· Prints use water-based ink, instead of oil-based. The water used is recycled, treated and cleaned before pumping it back into the sewer system.

· Lamination is a non-solvent based laminate, which does not produce toxic fumes instead of solvent-based urethane laminate, which is what 95% of what most cloth diaper manufacturers use.

· All fabrics (except for the Minky diaper’s outer shell), is made in the US. This ensures us that the fabric meets minimum standards for safety and is free from contaminants.

· Is the only company that integrates hemp & organic cotton in the absorbent pads for our diapers, which makes them one of the most absorbent diapers in our industry.

· Uses all biodegradable packaging on our products.

Mentioned on the show: Green smoothies for kids and half price ads on Natural Moms Talk Radio

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For the month of January, I’m offering HALF PRICE advertising on Natural Moms Talk Radio.

You will have to email me personally at clauth@gmail.com, tell me what you want and I’ll send you a Paypal invoice.

This is a fantastic deal!

Please pass along the word if you know a great green business looking for exposure to my listening audience and/or website visitors.

Thanks

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Her book is called “Finding Your Way – Exploring Your Family’s Educational Journey”

Making the decision to homeschool is a big one and parents may be overwhelmed by the options.

This book contains exercises that helps parents figure out their feelings and expectations about education. It is a workbook of discussion topics and thought provoking exercises and also lists many resources for more information. The book encourages parents to dig deep into their memories, experiences, thoughts and feelings about family and education in order to find a way of homeschooling that works for them.

It also takes parents into their family of origin and how those feelings around education can affect homeschooling, especially when challenges come up.

It’s common for parents to have fears around homeschooling. Michelle finds that parents are worried about things that may or may not happen in the future, which is not particularly helpful. She suggests taking it one year (or one month) at a time and think about what’s going to be most helpful for right now.

Michelle says that thinking about your personality style and your child’s learning style and designing homeschooling around that is one way to have success with homeschooling. An effective method to alleviate fear is to have more information. Michelle offers phone consultations to assist families.

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CPRN was created to educate people on the latest news concerning cell phones.

Today we’re talking about cell phones and children.

Children are at greatest risk from cell phone radiation because their brain tissues are still developing. Radiation goes deeper into their brain than adults because their skulls are thinner. And yet kids (especially teenagers) seem to live on the phone.

Some common symptoms are headache, fatigue, insomnia, hearing difficulties, short term memory loss.

There is a connection between cell phones and cancer, especially in areas right behind the ear and also the parotid (salivary glands).

Switzerland, Sweden and England have implemented boundaries around the use of cell phones for their youngest citizens.

Many people use cell phones far too much. Instead of using them selectively, for emergencies and such, people use cell phones to avoid simply planning ahead. Much cell phone use is disruptive instead of helpful.

Shelly noted that cell phone users exhibit addictive behavior, constantly checking their phones and even leaving movie theatres to take calls.

Shelly found a material that blocks 99% of radiation that is used to protect people who work in radioactive environments. He created a product called WaveShield that you can simply stick on your cell or cordless phone. The ear happens to have the highest absorption rate of radiation of any area in the body.

A recent study from UCLA showed that pregnant women who use cell phones can increase their child’s risk of autism. A world reknowned neurosurgeon who concluded a 15 year study recently predicted that cell phones may cause more cancer than cigarettes.

The website lists cell phone manufacturers’ product radiation levels. It would be smart to check their listings to buy a model with lower radiation levels the next time you purchase a phone. Headset phones that stay on your ear are especially dangerous. Reports have shown that a man’s fertility can be negatively affected when their phones are kept on their hip.

Some people notice symptoms from their computer monitors as well, especially if they use a computer for several hours a day.

Shelly comments that everyone who claims that cell phones are safe are either ignorant of the facts or getting a paycheck from the industry.

photo credit: snappybex

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Dayna is a nationally recognized expert, writer and speaker on Unschooling. Her blog is a fun and fascinating look into the daily life of an unschooling family.

Dayna and her husband own a natural wooden toys business, Willow Toys.

We’re talking about natural parenting advocacy. Dayna talks about how moms can find an area they’re passionate about in order to pursue advocacy and then how to get their voice heard.

We also talked about how a mom’s attitude about breastfeeding is such an important aspect of creating success. Visualization and an optimistic worldview has a tremendous impact on birth and breastfeeding.

Dayna also recommends avoiding things that make you feel bad and guilty and fearful and instead doing the things that make you feel good. As an example, exercise during pregnancy. If you enjoy walking more than doing pelvic tilts, then forget the pelvic tilts and walk!

Ditto for nutrition. Instead of being dogmatic and righteous about your choices, it’s better to find what foods make you feel well and healthy. If you take in fear with your food, you absorb less of the nutrients. This has been documented scientifically. What you believe about food and health tends to come true for you.

Dayna encourages moms to find what feels good and right for them for their births and use that method instead of sticking to a preconceived idea. For instance, Dayna listened to heavy metal music during her birth because it worked for her instead of new age soft music. Dayna is developing a natural childbirth method that helps moms find what clicks with them as individuals.

To be an authentic parent, we need to be who we are instead of living someone else’s script. Many people shift from mainstream parenting to natural parenting but this doesn’t mean doing what others are doing. I mentioned how uncomfortable I am with the question “What is a natural mom?” because I don’t want to set up some ideal. It’s about listening to your instincts instead of relying on external experts.

Mentioned on the show:
Ideal Bite – daily green living tips
Vital Juice – weekly health tips for moms
Margin Seligman’s books on optimism and happiness

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Dr. Michael Osit is a licensed clinical psychiatrist and author of Generation Text: Raising Well-Adjusted Kids in an Age of Instant Everything

In the book, Dr. Osit reveals how the combination of high-tech interaction and immediate gratification is putting our children at risk for developing distorted self-image, poor work ethic, a sense of entitlement, and weakened social skills, as well as aggressive tendencies.

Points from the show:

Conflicts between parents and kids is changing and often the core of that conflict is some technological device. The “generation gap” has morphed into a generation crater. In previous generations, kids thought they knew more than their parents but really didn’t. Now, however, kids often DO understand more – especially about technology.

Kids spend more than half of their playtime in front of screens. That’s making them disconnected to the family.

Why should parents be concerned about this?

1. Social skills - there is a lot of intermachine interaction instead of people interaction, so kids are not learning to pick up social nuances. For example, texting eliminates many challenges socially that contain important lessons for kids and teens to learn.
2. Values - the attitudes and behavior of kids has declined because modern kids have access to the world. The messages they get are not always appropriate.
3. Anonymity – we get more brazen and nervy when using technology. That’s not always healthy for relationships.

Dr. Osit talks about “access” and “excess” in his book.

Access refers to easy availability of the world and other people. Kids can be all over the world in their bedrooms.

Excess – kids have too many privileges and possessions. It’s not unheard of for 7 year old girls to have spa days, sushi in school lunches, limos for the 6th grade dance, etc. There is nothing wrong with these things but there is a sense of entitlement with these things. What’s acceptable for the age is not always appropriate.

Instant Gratification

Too much technology can lead to weak delayed gratification muscles. As parents we need to help our kids learn how to delay gratification in order for them to be happy, healthy adults. Kids don’t understand the difference between wanting and needing a new iPod. We don’t have to be patient and wait anymore in our microwave, instant download society.

Many parents are going overboard in expending too much money, time and resources. We’ve become too child centered (note from Carrie: this is a good point that is also mentioned in the The Continuum Concept: In Search Of Happiness Lost). Parents are operating in a busier, fast paced world. Because of guilt we say yes, sometimes to compensate for a lack of time. Dr. Osit suggests that kids earn more of their technology instead of always getting it right away.

Studies show that kids – even teens – really do respect and admire their parents and want to do right and even spend more time with their parents. We need to start creating more balance with our kids.

When used the right way, technology can be a parent’s asset. For instance, with shy kids technology can boost their social ability. It can compensate for their weakness.

Establish limits and boundaries with your kids before you give your child the privilege of using technology such as the internet. Instruct them on what they should do for example, if they come across pornography online. Computers should be kept in a public area of the home and the rules of use posted nearby. Parental controls are easy to implement. Kids should be coached to come to the parents if they stumble on something inappropriate online. Encourage them to come to you if that happens and help them understand that you won’t get angry but will talk about it. This is an opportunity for you to hand down your values to your kids.

Dr. Osit suggests eliminating distractions during family times. Turning off cell phones at the dinner table and on family outings, for instance. Model the behavior as well. If a parent is addicted to their “Crackberry” they can hardly criticize their child for being addicted to their Nintendo DS!

Keep perspective. What’s common isn’t always what’s best. Just because another family is doing it, doesn’t mean it’s right.

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We’re talking about natural methods of family planning.

Victoria developed Cycle Beads – an easy to use, totally natural tool that makes it much easier to use natural family planning to predict ovulation and either prevent or plan a pregnancy.

Cycle Beads are also useful for women to use not as a birth control device but to be more aware of their cycle. Young women just starting their cycle could use them to educate themselves.

Studies have found that many people who choose natural family planning do so because it has no worrisome side effects.

Dr. Jennings says that the failure rate of using Cycle Beads is about 5%.

Women who have irregular cycles may not want to use Cycle Beads, but the majority of women can use them quite effectively.

Moms who are nursing notice that breastfeeding has an effect on their cycle. It may take months or longer for fertility to return when a mom is nursing her baby. She needs to have had 4 periods after the birth of her baby before she begins using Cycle Beads for best results. And, her most recent cycle needs to have been between 26 – 32 days.

There are a few different methods that fall under the umbrella of natural family planning. Dr. Jennings explains the differences between the calendar method, the Billings method, the two-day method, and others.

Dr. Jennings notes that natural methods are “couple” methods. Communication and clear agreements are required for it to work successfully. Advocates of NFP say it brings a couple closer because they have to modify their sexual behavior. If one party is not willing to participate in the process, NFP may not be the best method for them.

While there may be no hard science to prove this, it’s logical to think that NFP has a positive impact on a couple since it opens dialogue about their sexuality and their relationship.

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You can listen to the audio below or read on for the transcript of our conversation.

Carrie:  You’re back with Carrie at Natural Moms Talk Radio.  My guest this week is Peggy Webb,  Director of the West River Academy. Hi, Peggy.

Peggy:  Hi, Carrie.  How are you?  Thanks for having me today.

Carrie:  Oh, I’m glad to talk with you.  I was browsing your web site, and you have the most interesting thing going on.  I’m not even sure how to describe it, but I’ll let you do that.  We’re going to talk today about your philosophies and thoughts about unschooling, and how it fits into the over all homeschooling picture.

Peggy:  Okay.  I can start maybe by mapping out a homeschooling philosophy continuum, so that the listeners know where we are here.

Generally, when someone wants to homeschool, they think they’re going to do what schools did, except that they are going to do it at home.  I’m going to by a curriculum, I’m going to sit my kids down at the table or the front desk, and we’re going to go through the various subject areas.  I’m going to be the teacher and they’re going to be the students, and they’re going to do what I asked them to do.  I’m going to grade them, and do the homework and so forth.

When people find out that there’s another way of doing it,  it’s really very refreshing and liberating to a lot of people that are open to the idea.  It’s not for everybody, because people come to this idea of allowing your children to have the freedom to participate in the decision about how they are going to be educated.  They find it rather different, because most people have gone through a school system, and they’ve been told what to do.

This whole idea of being given a choice is a little bit scary for them.  A lot of questions come up about are they going to succeed in life if they’re given so much freedom?  I’m an adult, and I’ve got to make sure they learn this, that and the other thing so that they can be successful.  It’s a whole different mind set, it’s a different paradigm.

But what you find on this spectrum is what we call school at home on one end, which is what I just described, and then on the other end is the opposite.  It’s more of a bottom up rather than a top down. It’s actually engaging your children in a discussion, where you want to check to see what is their learning style?  Do they learn better when they’re jumping on the trampoline reciting the multiplication facts, or when they’re sitting with a workbook and memorizing flash cards and that sort of thing?  What is the learning style?  What are your children’s goals? What do they want to accomplish with their life?

Some kids, at a very young age, know very clearly what they want to be when they grow up, and they never change that.  You want to give them the honour and recognition that it is important that they are part of this decision.

Then, you sit down and work together with a child to decide what’s going to be studied, what the materials are, if it’s going to be hands on, if it’s going to be through travel and field trips, or a combination of book study possibly with apprenticeships or mentorships, group activities, co-op learning with other families, … There’s just so many things out there to explore.  Your child is one of how many billion on the earth, and they are each different.

What happens with the school system is that there’s a mass educational technique, because when you have 30 kids and one teacher, you can only make them all do the same thing at the same time.  So that model has been followed even right into the home.  It’s something that at least needs to be looked at and questioned before deciding how you’re going to homeschool.

So, unschooling, then, is including the child instead of telling the child what to do.

You might say that school at home, the top down approach, is at one side of the spectrum, unschooling, or the bottom up approach is at the bottom end of the spectrum.

In the middle is what I would call an eclectic approach, sometimes a parent will make a contract with a child that says “I really need you to be doing some reading every day, and some math every day, and I need you to be spending at least an hour on things that I realy think are important for you.  I realize that that’s the top down approach, but that’s where I am.  This is what we need to be doing.  However, with the rest of the day, let’s see what you want to be doing.”

So there’s a contract and a compromise, and they come together with a plan.  It doesn’t’ mean that the plan is ground in stone, of course, it can be changed.  I always recommend that you regroup as a family and sit down and say “How has this been working?” After a month or so, and then you can tweak it, change it, listen to what the child has to say.  Get a lot of feedback.  Take note, keep a journal.  Have your child keep a journal.  Then work together as a team and come up with something that you’re going to move into if that plan hasn’t been working.

That eclectic approach is what people generally either start off with, or in some cases end up with.  What I am finding through the consultations that I do through my work as director of West River Academy since 1993, is that students and families are moving more in the direction of unschooling, because they start realizing that it’s not the monster that some people have described it to be, and there still is order in the home and mutual respect, parent to child and child to parent.  The children aren’t running wild, just having control over everything that their younger maturities are not able to handle.  Then it becomes more of an educational process than a parenting style.

C:  A couple of things I want to touch on.  First of all, early in your conversation, you mentioned the word scary.  I applaud you for using that word, because I really pick up on a whole lot of that.  I think we have this very pervasive idea in this culture that children have to be forced to learn.  When anyone finds out that you have a leaning towards unschooling, they almost have this fear.

“Your child’s not going to stay where the other kids are, and how are they going to keep up with the other children?”

It’s so interesting, because just the other day this gentleman (who was a stranger to me), and he was in this 60s, he asked me “How do you know that your kids are keeping up with other kids their age?”

I responded to him respectfully, but I couldn’t help but think in my mind “I wonder how you know that you’re keeping up with other 60 year old men?”

P:  And does it really matter?

C:  Exactly.  It was funny that he misspelled a word in this message to me, and I thought “Hmm, maybe you need to revisit your own education.”

P:  That’s a really good point.  We apply it to children, but you were brilliant in applying it to a 60 year old person.  It’s ludicrous, it’s crazy, and yet we accept that craziness if it’s for a child who we believe to be immature, and not having wisdom in this world.  Some children are so wise that they blow you away.  Again, it’s that respect for the child.

We have to admit as parents that it is fear.

You just really nailed it.  It really is a fear that they’re not going to be successful, and there’s a false responsibility of the parent that it’s my job to make sure that the student is successful in later life.  If I don’t do what I’m supposed to do, than he could fail.

But also to understand that we’re just temporary guardians of these children.  They are their own person, and they come into the world with gifts and talents and abilities and all kinds of knowledge that they’ve brought in with them.  Our job is just to nurture them, and guide them, and help to expose them to what is available in this lifetime, in this experience, in this world that they’ve come in to.  It’s more like a guide, not a dictator.

This whole idea that if they’re not forced to learn, they won’t learn.

One of the greatest educational experts, John Holt, the founder of unschooling, he coined the term unschooling, has a famous quote that says “Birds fly, fish swim, and humans learn.”  It is a natural thing for the human being.

Have you ever seen a young child not wanting to learn anything, that just wants to sit around looking at the ceiling every day, if they’re healthy beings? No. They want to emulate, they want to monkey their older brothers and sisters, they want to talk, and they want to walk.

Yet, if you think about when they take their first step, you don’t say “Oh, my gosh, he’s taken his first step now, we have to start walking lessons.”  Or when he says Mama, “Oh, my gosh, he’s said a word. Now we have to start talking lessons.”  When they learn to ride a two wheeler, we applaud, we clap, we say “yay “That’s great.”  Not “Okay, now it’s time for advanced bicycling lessons.”

Yet, when they go into Kindergarden, we take it for granted that now it’s time for someone else to tell them what to do, and tell them how to learn their colors, and how to learn their ABCs, and of course they’re never going to learn how to read unless they’re in school, and in first grade. They can’t pick it up on their own.  We start applying things that we have been taught, falsely, without questioning them, to our own children.  Yet, it’s ludicrous.  When you think about a baby, you don’t think of it that way.

I often give an analogy with how do you know your children are keeping up, or how do you know without testing that they’re really going to be with their piers?  I think we’ve already debunked that they have to be with their piers.  Do you want to do exactly what other 32 year olds are doing?  No, you want to do what you want to do.  That’s not even a concern.

But the whole idea of testing, I’ve used as an analogy, watching a carrot grow.  You plant the seed, an you water the carrot, and maybe you give it some fertilizer, and eventually you’re going to see some little green leaves come to the top.  You know that there’s something going on underneath the ground, but if you were to dig the carrot up every now and then to see what it’s doing, you’re not going to help the carrot grow, you’re going to hurt it.

If you can just trust, and that’s a big thing, you’ll find at my web site at the home page, we trust parents 100% that’s what’s necessary, to bring back, to empower parents, to be trusted, to be fully competent to work with their own children.  The parent is going to see, by these little green leaves, that are healthy and thriving and getting bigger, you can just be sure that there’s a really healthy carrot growing underneath.  You don’t have to test them all the time to find out.  You don’t have to test them at all to find out, because you’re with them every day.  Why would you give them a test?

When people ask you “Do you encourage testing?”  No.  “Do you discourage it?”  Yes, because again, it’s designed for mass education where the teacher doesn’t know what all the 30 kids are doing, and thinks that the way he or she is going to find out is by giving them some kind of a test.  It’s not for the children, it’s not for the parents, and it’s for the system.

C:  For money and politics.

P:  Yeah.

C: And budgets, and taxes, and funding and all that fun stuff that has nothing to do with education.

P:  Yeah.  We have to understand that it’s really designed so that the child will get used to being subjected to this, without any power to refuse. 

Grow up, taking tests, going through the system, nodding his head yes, graduating from high school, going to college, graduating from college, continuing to nod his head, and submit to all these things, and then ultimately, he’s been trained to be a subservient tax payer with a job instead of an entrepreneur using creative ideas, maybe having some creative ideas that will allow him to pay less taxes.

It’s just part of that system, all based on fear. Fear of change, fear of allowing creativity to express itself.

C:  It’s about sameness.  John Taylor Gatto, I’m sure you’re familiar with his works and his books, “The Underground History of American Education” is the name of one of his books that I read recently.  He talks about the insidious motives and purpose of schooling, and why compulsory schooling even came into existence, because of what you said.  To create good little factory employees.

P:  Automatons.  Exactly.  I think the unschooling movement, at least from maybe a generation ago, when I started 23 years ago, my oldest daughter is now 23, that was more of a movement of fiercely independent thinking individuals who did not want their children to grow up as John Taylor Gatto describes, to be these subservient automatons, that go about being cogs in the wheel.  They wanted them to express their individuality and determine their life. Be creative entrepreneurs.

I think through the years, the schools have gotten this concept of unschooling, and are now offering it through the school system to keep these dollars flowing through the system.  People are not as independent, as courageous.  They sometimes want to be taught by an expert.  “How do you homeschool?  I want to homeschool my child, so what are you going to do for me?“  Instead of how it used to be in the early days, when John Holt was discussing it in the 70s.

We’ve seen a change in the movement, we’ve seen the movement itself has grown.  The percentage of unschoolers in the movement also has grown, but we also see a large percentage that are going to conferences and are calling and saying “I don’t have a clue, what do I do?”  It’s just a changing environment.  There are still those people who want to take  matters into their own hands, and advocate for their child, regardless of what’s required.  I applaud those people, they’re very brave.

C:  You’ve talked a little bit about the homeschooling continuum, and the thoughts of eclectic homeschoolers, unschoolers and radical homeschoolers. 

But what basically is the difference between the unschooling that you’re talking about and radical unschooling?

P:  My understanding is radical unschooling is more of a lifestyle than an educational philosophy.  It involves what I would consider, – this is my opinion, because as you can tell I’m not really fully in agreement with it, but it’s more of a permissive parenting approach, where you take the freedom of the child to me to an extreme, where you’re giving them freedom to make choices that they may not be ready for, because they’re still children.  It might have to be with watching television, they can watch as much as they want, they can watch whatever channels they want, they can keep their room a mess if they want to, after all it’s their room.  They don’t want to clean it up, that’s okay.  I don’t have the right of a parent to go in and ask them to clean it up, or to – it’s sort of treating the child as an adult, in that sense, without boundaries.

That’s where I draw the line, because I, in my consultations with people, talk about unschooling as an educational philosophy where the child participates in determining the direction.  They may not have complete final decision making power, but definitely they’re respected and heard, and then together they hammer out a plan.  Still, you may have parental rules, just like any family has rules about even bed time, or getting up in the morning,  or what the routine chores will be, or how much television or video gaming can be done.  We have to understand that addictions come to all of us as temptations, and children aren’t any better capable or able to handle them than adults.  We get addicted to our computers and our chat sessions and our telephoning.

C: And our Crackberry.

P:  Blackberry. Whatever it is, yeah.

C:  I totally agree with you.  I’m not sure if you’ve heard of the parenting philosophy called “Taking Children seriously.”  They call it TCS for short.

P:  No, I haven’t.

C:  I almost hesitate to bring it up and give them publicity, but they have a very radical approach to child rearing.  Everything has to be reached by consensus.  A lot of it has a very, almost a sect like feel. They’re very disrespectful and unrespecting of any other views.  If you’re not doing things the way we preach, you’re completely whacked out, and you’re ostracized and shamed if you leave the philosophy.

P:  Cult like, huh?

C:  Very much cult like.  But that’s one side of that, where the children are allowed and even encouraged to play video games all day and all night, and even have sex at young, young ages.  It’s just really bizarre.  That brings up an important point.

For a parent to embrace unschooling or eclectic homeschooling, it is important to set limits on things like that.  Because we’re not just providing an environment, we’re also facilitating education, in my opinion.  It’s difficult to do that in an environment where there’s no structure at all.  Children are going to make immature choices.  If they had their way, they would be eating a lot of sugar and staying up all night, and we see the effects of that.  We do have the right to set those boundaries and to set those household rules.  They don’t have the wisdom yet.

P:  I think children are just as different as adults.  Some are very self disciplined.  I’ve seen the whole gamut of kids that are completely  unstructured and really  need to have somebody keeping them on task by their own admittance and by their own request.  Other students are extremely self disciplined from day one.  I’ll ask them what they’re going to do now that they’re not in school anymore, and they’ll tell me exactly what they’re going to do, how they’re going to structure their day, and they’ve got it all figured out.  They don’t need a parent to help them with it.  It’s just individual. But we as parents are the best equipped to know our children, and know what their tendencies are and the best role that we can play in helping them to achieve their goals.  That’s what it’s all about, helping them to achieve their goals.

C:  I absolutely agree with you.  I wasn’t even thinking in terms of education, I was thinking in terms of every day choices.  But you’re so right about that.  For instance, my oldest son has decided that he has got to finish this particular math book that he’s using.  I didn’t make it a goal that he had to finish that or a requirement, but he’s like “Mom, this fall I’m going to be in fifth grade, and I can’t be doing this book.  It says it’s fourth grade.”  He’s like “I have to finish this this month, so I’ve gotta do X number of pages every day to get it done by the end of the month.”

But this is a structure that he’s put on himself, a boundary that he’s put on himself.  I’ve seen that with my kids, but I was thinking more in terms of their over all schedule.  He would love to stay up until midnight every night, but I see the dark circles and the impatience with his little brother that he’ll have the next day.  So I have to put some boundaries on that kind of behavior.  But not when it comes to his learning at all.

P:  You’ve brought up a good point.  Because someone might say “Gee, Carrie, can you call yourself unschooling if he’s using a math book?  A real text book?  That’s not unschooling.”

And that’s where I’d like to clarify here by giving examples of my own children.  They stayed up until midnight and later, read until 03:00 in the morning, but they didn’t have to get up early, and our whole family was more into the late night, not getting up early.  We’re all night people. So that’s okay.  That depends.

But unschooling, as long as it takes the child into account, when the program is planned, or as things work through day by day, it’s unschooling.

If the child chooses to do a math book and wants to get through it from beginning to end, that’s okay, it’s still unschooling.  If he chooses to go to public school for four years of high school, that’s still unschooling.  Why?  Because it’s the child’s choosing.

My youngest, who is now 14, has been through every kind of education that I can imagine.  She started as a homeschooler. During that time, the town offered something called “Home Options” where they had little gatherings of homeschoolers.  She was  in those little groups.  Then they started an alternative school which was private initially.  She went to that for a couple days a week.  Then that school became a charter school under the public school’s supervision.  She did that for a while.

Then in seventh grade, she went off to another state and went to a boarding school for the entire seventh grade and part of eighth grade.  Then she came home and was homeschooled for the next few months.  Then, in ninth grade she went to public high school full time for the first semester.  Then the second semester, the public school offers a home school program, and so she opted out of the public school, went to the homeschool program, which offered a couple of classes of high school.

There was an eclectic thing there.  Finally, last year, as a sophomore , she did the entire year in public school, at which time she said “I’ve had enough.  I see how it works, I don’t want to be there anymore.”  So now, as an almost 15 year old going into grade 11, she kind of got ahead of herself, she’s decided not to go back to school.

She’s going to spend the whole semester traveling in Costa Rica and Japan because she’s into languages. The following semester, she may be going to France.  When she’s not doing that, she and I are going to talk about grade 11.  What do we want your Grade 11 transcript to look like? What do we want to do for English?  What do we want for history?

She’s going to report to me every week.  She’s going to have to write, keep a journal every day, and write to me every week, and tell me what she’s been doing, because I need some raw material that we can use to make the eleventh grade transcript.  It will be based on in English, we’re going to read this many books, and every week you’re going to tell me what you’re thinking about the book reading you’re doing.  That will be your English credit.  What are we going to do for Math?  What are we going to do for science, and so forth?

Once we decide what we’re going to do, and we go to sign off on it, then she will be accountable to me to get it done, whether she’s living with me, or her father in another state, or her relatives in Japan, or whatever it is.  She will be accountable to do that until we come together  and say “Let’s change this” because whatever reason.

All these things, it doesn’t matter if the child is in college classes, some students take college classes, and they’re still unschooling.  So unschooling doesn’t have any look.  Like school at home, you think of kids sitting at the kitchen table, doing bookwork. That’s more of a look.

Unschooling doesn’t have a look, because it includes everything. It’s more of an attitude of respecting the child, honoring his own individuality, and including him in his own educational path.  Maybe that’s helped to clear up for some people a fear that unschooling is going to be wild, and they can do what they want.  No, that’s not it.

C:  Thanks for making that important distinction.  I think that because people have that school at home vision in their minds, that vision, that’s why you get that pat response when people find out you’re homeschooling.  “I could never do that.”

You hear that all the time as a homeschooling parent.  I always tell them “It’s not as hard as you think.”

P:  They think they have to choose the subject matter, and actually teach it.  Particularly parents who haven’t had a college education, sometimes are feeling very ill equipped to be the teacher of their high school aged children, and so they’d rather put them into high school, or sign them up for a program that will teach them. But our job is not to teach.  It’s to facilitate the learning experiences, connecting our children to the right people and the right experiences, that will be their teachers.

From a pond, to a horse, to a mentor, to a five year old child, to  a 52 year old English professor, to experiences at college, group activities.  The children are learning all the time.  I think our love for our children tells us that we want our children to learn from the right sources.  They’re learning a ton at school, but look what they bring home. Then we have to try and correct it or fix it.  Do something.  Remedy it.  They are learning all the time.  So it’s what they’re learning and from whom are they learning it that’s of concern to parents.

No matter what style of home schooling we choose, the fact that we are home schooling means that we are devoted to our children, and we’re doing our best, and we’re evolving.

Let’s be a little forgiving to ourselves, too.  Most of us have not grown up as homeschoolers or unschoolers, we’ve grown up through the system. So we have to change the way it’s been done for some decades of  History and be open to other ways of doing things.  Experimenting with our own children, and that is scary.  If one person has done it, and you’ve seen a model you can say “That person did okay, so I can trust maybe I’ll be okay, too.”

With your first child you take that leap, and it starts to turn out okay, and so your second child, okay, that’s better.. And by the time the third one or the fourth or the fifth comes along, you feel like “Okay, I know what I’m doing.” And yet each one is different, so it’s never going to be a pattern, it’s always going to be unique and different and challenging.

That’s why we have these support groups and that’s why  for example, I do consultations to reassure them and empower them, that it’s okay you don’t have to be perfect.  You’re going to make mistakes, and your kids are going to forgive you, and they’re going to make mistakes, and you’re’ going to forgive them, and life goes on.  In any case, they’re going to learn way more than they would have learned if they were in public school.  We tend to think the grass is greener.  “If they’re in public school, there wouldn’t be any gaps.”  How many gaps do you have in your mind?  I have  a ton.

C:  That’s right.

P:  It’s not perfect on the other side.  There’s gaps over there, and children end up in a lot worse situations often as graduates of the public school system.  We don’t have to worry about keeping up.  We can be assured that our children are going to be just fine, and as long as they have chosen their life, whether it’s college or military service, or a career, a job, whatever they’ve chosen, they’re going to learn from it.  We can just rest assured that life is going to continue, and it’s not completely our responsibility for where our children end up.  We just want to give them our best shot.

C:  That’s a great note to end that topic of discussion on.  Before we conclude, tell us a little bit more about what West River Academy is all about.

P:  I started this school back in 1993 when I lived in Colorado.  I was looking for a school that would give me the legal protection I needed and the support I needed, and give me an accredited diploma and transcript.  But I knew what I was doing, and I didn’t want someone telling me what to do, and making me make reports, and using my time in ways that were not productive for my children. I couldn’t find a school like that.  When I moved to Colorado, and looked at the laws there, I thought “I could start the ideal school   for myself.” And that’s what I did.

That’s why, if you look at my home page, it says “We trust parents 100%”  I’m one of those parents, and it’s a golden rule.  Do unto others.  I made a school that I would want to be part of.  It has very reasonable fees. A year’s enrolment includes the whole family, and I’m available to talk to people.

We offer A La Carte services, you just pay for what you get.  We do consultations, , we do transcripts, and we are accredited. We’ve had great success with our diplomas and transcripts being recognized by colleges and military.  It’s very simple, I don’t have packages to send people, we don’t offer curricula, we don’t recommend any particular curriculum, but we support you if you choose a curriculum, we support you if yu don’t.

We really honor the family in being the experts for their children. There’s nobody out there that’s more expert than the mom and dad.  I try to help through the consultations to empower the parents.  When we do the consultations, I work with the parent and the children together.  I’m asking questions of the children too, because sometimes they answer in interesting ways for the parents to hear, that helps to get a perspective. And then we work on the program that they’re going to do.  It’s mostly a consultation service that I  provide, in addition to the enrolment.

C:  Awesome, that’s great.  Thank you so much, Peggy, for sharing your experience over the last couple of decades in the homeschooling world.  We appreciate you very much.

P:  Thank you so much, Carrie for having me on the show.  I look forward to listening to your podcast.

a

Sharon is a mom and educator and has 17 years of experience counseling parents both in person and through her audio downloads on her website.

Carrie: You are back with Carrie at Natural Moms Talk Radio. I have with me Sharon Silver of ProactiveParenting.net. Hello, Sharon.

Sharon: Hi, Carrie.

Carrie: I’m excited to talk with you. I’ve been looking at your web site and listening to a bit of the audio you have there. I think that what you’re doing is great and very much needed. Tell us a little, briefly, about what proactive parenting is all about.

Sharon: Proactive Parenting is a site that grew out of 17 years of teaching parenting, and really trying to help parents deal with things so they don’t have to end up going straight to punishment.

I’m sure that what you listened to on my site was where I talked about the fact that every parent has a reaction, and so many parents think the only resource that they have is time outs.
photo credit: nyki_m

But the truth is that there’s a tremendous amount of information that lives in the middle between your reaction and sending a child to time out.

And that’s what Proactive Parenting is about, ways to do this without going “Get your little fanny to time out right now.”

C: That’s interesting that you say that, because my audience is mostly people who believe in attachment parenting and gentle discipline tools. But it’s very true that even a so called gentle discipline technique can cross that line, and time out can be very laid back, “Okay, I think that we need a minute to calm down here, so let’s have a time out.” Or this can be picking up the child and slamming them in the corner. It’s not necessarily what you do so much as how you do it.

S: That’s very true. One of the top things on my web site are two completely different versions of time out. Because I have worked with a lot of attachment parenting parents, and parents that live on the fringes of that, and out of that grew my awareness, and also for my own children, that time out wasn’t accomplishing what I wanted It to accomplish.

If I was already angry when I did it, then it could be one of those close to really angry “Get your little fanny in there,” or it could be what time out was originally intended to be, which was “Let’s both take a moment and come back and talk about it.”

But there’s also a couple other things. For my preschoolers, which is seminar number two, because I’ve had to split them up, one for toddlers and one for preschoolers, the preschool one is very loving and really, it is “sweetheart, you need to do this.” So how I’m going to use time outs now is “have a seat for one minute, so you can get yourself internally ready to do what Mommy needs you to do. If you still need help with your emotions I’m right here.”

Now, a toddler can’t handle that. A toddler needs the same loving support, but a toddler is still verbally not there yet. So a toddler needs to have actions included in this. The one that I do for toddlers is stop them, and you do this in 10 seconds. It gives you the perfect words to say that are very loving and scaled down to size so they can understand you, and then have the child, while they’re still emotional, dealing with the new information they were just passed so they can pull the whole thing together. And that’s my understanding of time outs in this day and age. I think it’s time that time out has an upgrade.

C: To me, it’s more of a pattern interrupt than a punishment.

S: That it is. But it can be a pattern interrupt with teaching. That’s where I am. I’m all about solutions, and I’m all about folding teaching, which is really what discipline is, into whatever method I use.

Any moment that you have an opportunity to say “We need an interrupt,” it’s because the child’s level, they’re missing some piece of the puzzle. That means it’s time for the parent to step up and say “What do I need to teach you so you can do this?”

C: Absolutely. Tell us about some of the tools that you give parents. I love that on your web site you have a testimonial from a mom, and she talks about “You gave me the tools that I need.” She says “It doesn’t have to be so stressful with the right tools.” I think that’s what parents really need. We need tools, because we want to do what’s right, but when we don’t have tools to use, then we revert to what we know. Is that what you find?

S: Absolutely. And I would even give parents another bit of information, and say “Give yourselves a break.”

Because every human being, when they’re put in a situation with the first child, this happens with the first child, every day is a new day with your first child. You’ve never been there before; you’ve never been the parent of a three year old. What happens is when a three year old presents a new way of handling a situation, the parent will almost always revert back to what was done to them first. Because we don’t know where we’re headed, and in that moment is where we make the decision “No, That didn’t work for me, didn’t work for Sweetpea, we need to find something else.”

Then we start looking for the tools. Basically, what my goal is with Proactive Parenting is to support your own instincts. You are – I write on a blog that’s really wonderful, and she always says “You are the best parent for your child.” I agree with that 100’%. You know what works. So I support the parent’s instincts.

Things like how simple is it to teach your child two things that will really help them, especially when they have lack of words? One is “Sweetie, if you need me, you only have to say “help” and I will be there.” “Instead of trying to get my attention while you’re doing something else, I want you to come up and say “Need a hug now.””

Those two things start addressing what’s underlying a tremendous amount of misbehavior.

Because the child sees that when a parent deals with misbehavior, what does any parent do? We stop what we’re doing, we turn our entire body toward them, our eyes lock with their eyes, and for some silly reason our finger goes out, and then we begin to start to talk to them. Because they are dealing with an immature reasoning, they still have immature reasoning; they’re interpreting that as “Oooh, so this is how I get her attention.”

C: We’re reinforcing that.

S: Yes. So what we have to do is recognize and always look at it from the preschooler’s point of view, and then say “All right, this is how you deal. Now, it’s my job to see how I want to present this to you.” So those two little keys of “Help” and “I need a hug,” that’s what’s underlying a lot of the misbehavior, so let’s deal with it.

C: I love that. I’m going to remember that, because my almost three year old is in this phase of instead of asking me for help, and I could be right there, she wants to throw a little fit and scream. I’m trying to teach her that “You don’t have to do that, just ask Mommy for help.” I’m expecting her to behave rationally, and that’s too much to ask. I think that if I taught her to say “Help,” that one word would be enough for a three year old.

S: It’s not only enough for a three year old, but here’s where my skills come in to help a parent with their instincts. The child is still living with that intense emotion. We come in and we try and give them information to squelch the intense emotion. Then the power struggle starts, because they’re holding on and saying “This is true for me. I really do feel this way.”

If we honor their instincts, and say “Yes, you do feel this way, let me have you use this word, funnel all your frustration through it, and I get it. I’m right here.” We have to honor their emotions, but put it in terms that we’re willing to hear a million.2 times a day.

C: Yeah, that’s true. We know how we feel when someone tries to jolly us up, or cheer us up when we’re right in the middle of emotion. It’s very frustrating, and we just want to scream louder.

S: I say it ignites the fire. If somebody is going to start to say “You can deal with it,” it’s like “If I could deal with it, I would be right now. But I’m out of control; a little help would be helpful.”

C: You offer these seminars on demand. Tell us a little more about what that is.

S: I definitely have been around parents for a great many years. One thing that has become very apparent to everybody is the pace of life is speeding up, and we are all very busy, whether we are stay-at-home moms or working moms. It makes no difference. Our plate is really full.

Parents would say to me all the time “I appreciate that you came to talk to me at my Mom’s group.” We’re now doing that across the country, so check us out if you want me to come and do a little thing at the mom’s group. But they weren’t able to show up at the seminars. So we started thinking “Okay, how can we serve you?” Well, if you are a busy person and you want to be able to go when you want to go, – now gas is so expensive.

We’ve created seminars on demand. They’re only anywhere from 15 minutes to 40 minutes, I think. They’re very inexpensive. You can listen from your favorite chair, you can listen while you’re nursing the baby in the middle of the night, and when you start your next day you’re all prepared. You don’t have to get a sitter; you don’t have to go out unless you want to. But that’s what seminars on demand are. It’s to work with the convenience of your busy life.

C: That’s awesome.

S: That’s something that we really hope catches on, because we think that’s really valuable for parents.

C: Let’s see. I wanted to ask another question. You just gave us a great tip a moment ago. Do you have any other quick easy solutions that a parent can take away from this conversation and use today?

S: Yeah. I was just writing a blog, and we were talking about tantrums for real little toddlers. One of the things that came out that I think is really valuable is when you’re in a power struggle, or when you’re in a tantrum, because the tantrum’s going to happen with the toddler, the power struggle is going to happen with preschooler. So they’re pretty much similar in nature, but age appropriate. You can’t really say the same things to a toddler that you can to a preschooler. We start with the toddler, and we say the toddler is tantruming.

Number one, most parents know very clearly, you don’t really want to see a tantrum. We sit beside the child. We offer can we hold you, whatever? But then that still leaves a great deal of information that has not been accomplished to help the child with the tantrum and move through that phase.

One thing that might be valuable is to let the child know that we empathize with the emotions that caused the tantrum. You can say things so they understand what is fueling their fire.

This works somewhere between toddler and preschool age. You can say “It’s true, you don’t get to do these things, you don’t get to go into the garage today because Daddy’s car is in there, and that’s your play time. That can be really frustrating.”

What happens is that when you acknowledge feelings, at any age with any child, they feel heard.

Our tendency really is to go in and try and stop it. We can do that gently, we can do it lovingly, but underneath a lot of parents is “I just want this to stop.” The quickest way to make any stop is to acknowledge it, bring it to the surface and go through it. Don’t scoot around it. Go through it. Walk the child through the emotions. Address them, empathize with them.

C: Kind of like birth.

S: Oh yes.

C: Labor and birth are metaphor for so many things.

S: Absolutely.

C: You can’t stop it, and you wouldn’t really want to stop it, but you just have to get through it and not fight it.

S: I had two homebirths. The one thing that my midwife said to me very clearly is you’re going to find there are two ways to handle this. One is to pull yourself out of it and try to get away from it, and the other is to be willing to go through it. I think the same thing applies to children.

C: Tell us real quick, how would that sound like? My seven year old, really the only time he gets explosive is when his little sister goes into his room and gets into his Legos. He comes running out of his room and dashing across the house, screaming that she messed with his Legos.

S: What do you usually do?

C: I usually say something like “That is so frustrating when someone goes into your things.” But sometimes, I want to try to reason with him, which I know is not really the smart thing to do, because he’s not being reasonable when his emotions are running that high. Because when she’s in there touching his Lego, she’s not destroying them, she’s just playing with them. The rational adult in me wants to say “What’s so horrible about sharing Legos?” But I realize that’s not the right response. How would that look?

S: It kind of is the right response. This goes back to supporting your instincts. Because you’re mothering instinct is not your child instinct. The children are going on their instincts, you’re going on yours. The mothering instinct is “Come on, she’s your sister. She’s your sibling. Can’t we get along? You’re going to love this person all your life.” We want that message to get through. The child’s like “I didn’t order her. She didn’t come on my menu. It would be really nice if she’d get her hands off my Legos, please.” We have to acknowledge that. I have to say “Oh, no. She didn’t do it again!” To really go to that place again.

But the other thing that we do an awful lot with siblings is that we actually ask, of course I am the older child, so I have no experience with this, we actually ask the older child to give up something, to include the younger child. What if we decided that they had a right to want those Legos to be special? And that could be the one and only thing they get private time to do, and that the younger child then learns that “this is something where I cannot bother this person, and maybe I need to find a hobby of my own that’s very special for me.”

You might approach it that way, and say “How long do you think you’re going to need to play with Lego for? I would have to keep your sister out.” And then he would absolutely feel very heard, may close the door, then may realise “it’s actually more fun when she’s in here. I don’t really like being by myself,” or he may really relish that time.

Then you’ll see the relationship between the siblings really blossom, because he feels heard.

Conversely, when you have a smaller child, suppose you have a toddler whose 18 months old, and you have a 4 year old. A lot of times you hear the toddler screaming, and the 4 year old has come in and taken something back from the toddler. What do we do? We go in and say “Why did you take that from her?”

Instead, what I suggest is they make these really wonderful gates, they’re called circle gates. That’s what I call them. Or square gates. It’s not pretty in your living room, but it works. They create a space where you can say to the older child “Look, if the little one is getting into your stuff. Do you need some private time? Why don’t you take this and go into your special space.” The toddler can stand there, the toddler can watch, but the older child is protected. And the older child goes “I feel much better now, thank you very much.”

C: What ended up happening with this yesterday was after he calmed down, I asked him “Would you be willing to pick out some Legos that are for her to play with?” They like to play together, these two. They’re 23 months apart, and most of the time they enjoy each other’s company. He said “I can do that, that’s a great idea.” He runs and finds a Tupperware container, and picks up a bunch of Legos for her. He solved his problem, and I was really proud of him for doing that.

S: What I would say there is that’s perfect, 100% perfect. There are a lot of parents that can figure that stuff out. But there’s also a lot of children for whom that’s not quite enough.

I find that with proactive parenting, what you’re looking for is when your first take on the situation, your first remedy, didn’t necessarily work perfectly for the child.

You find that maybe the child is still having power struggles. Real proactive parenting is in the moments where you really are out of answers, but yet you still are very clear about the direction you want to go with your parenting.

You don’t want to resort to “Go sit in you room, get away from me! You’re in trouble.” Punishment. So when you are still needing to say no, when you’re still needing to set a boundary, when you’re still needing to teach, and you really aren’t quite sure what, then that’s where you come to proactive parenting.

What we’ve done is we’ve broken it down so that when you look at our seminars on demand, you’re going to see power struggles, you’re going to see quiet, and you’re going to see safety. Things that you’re dealing with every day are what the seminars are called. You know directly that all the solutions are going to help you with safety.

Yesterday I heard “I can’t get my child to stay in this car seat.” This is clearly becoming an issue. I’ve heard it enough that I had to write number 8 on safety. It’s a beautiful seminar that really gives a very gentle yet very firm way to teach a child that “these are the boundaries, honey. You cannot get out of this car seat.” That’s what you’re going to find. Whatever’s going on in your everyday life, if your first blush, your first instinct isn’t a perfect match for your child, give it a shot. You’ll find it there.

C: I wish I could think of this thing that happened yesterday. I saw my five year old daughter do something and I was so impressed with what she did, because to me it seemed like wisdom beyond her years. I said “Ilana, how did you know that you’re supposed to do that?” She said “Oh, I saw you do it Mommy.” It was one of those moments where I was like “Whoa!”

S: You bring up a brilliant and beautiful piece that I myself didn’t do well enough. I would love to tell your listeners all about that. One of the things that is the only complaint that my oldest son, who is now 29, ever said to me is he said “Mom, I really wish you would have shown me how you manage your frustration. Because I always thought that it was effortless for you, and I always thought there was something wrong with me, because it was never effortless for me.”

A lot of times, we use words. This is a really big part of proactive parenting, probably the biggest. The words that we use are not being translated to the toddler and preschooler. It’s not a preschool level. So we’ll say things like “That’s not appropriate,” or “You’re very frustrated.” The child understands the words, but the process, the step by step process of how to deal with that isn’t being translated.

If you’re in the kitchen, and all of a sudden you open the refrigerator, and you realize “I don’t have that ingredient and dinner is built around it.” Go ahead and say out loud what’s going on in your brain. “Well, I do have the majority of the ingredients. Boy, I’m mad right now that I forgot that. Sometimes I get so mad at myself. Being mad at myself is just not going to help. I think what I need to do is reconsider what’s for dinner. Let’s take a look. I know, I could make a list.”

GO on and on. Say it out loud enough that children will now have the exact same response that your sweet daughter did. “I watched you, Mom. I learned from you,” which is the basis of all preschool activity. We are the most important people in the world. They learn so much more from us than we have any idea they do.

C: That’s great. I can definitely work on that. I’m not the type to talk to myself at all. But I’m always telling my oldest, because he does that, he got that from his father. I’m always telling him “You know that’s a sign of superior intelligence, people who talk to themselves .” I’ve heard that, literally. It can be a sign of high intelligence. I could do that. It is kind of good and it’s humbling at the same time, when a child mimics something exactly like that. It is humbling.

S: It’s extremely humbling, and we don’t need to go there, because we’ve all done it. I call it eating humble pie. Being a parent of a child, you eat a lot of humble pie.

C: That’s one of the things about parenting, is how much it grows you personally. We were chatting before the call, and you wanted me to ask you one problem that you see, one issue that you see a lot with parents. Do you want to talk about that?

S: One of the issues that I see – I’m going to actually bow to you, because I think that you have wisdom here. If anybody ever wants to send me and email and tell me what their wisdom on it is, I would love it. I do a tremendous amount of radio talk shows, and a lot of writing on blogs. And people are always saying “Oh, my gosh. The solutions are fabulous. This is exactly what I wanted.” And yet I find that parents seem to have a stop block, a block against getting the solutions. And I’m not really sure what. I think when they’re frustrated, and they don’t’ know what to do, it baffles me, to be quite honest. When you find a place that aligns with your values and aligns with the way that you want to parent, … and yet, is there a fear somewhere in there about learning the solutions, attending a parenting class? I’m not really sure.

C: Okay. I think the thing that’s going on with that has to do with the parents left over sense of shame, maybe, and sense that somebody here has to be in pain, somebody has to be punished, because somebody did wrong.

It’s such a part of our culture, and a part of how we were likely parented that even though on a mental level we know that this is the right way to do things, and we want our children to be parented this way, when we take their actions personally, or when we’re tired or stressed, we think in terms of good guy bad guy.

Somebody’s got to pay. I had to pay, so you’ve got to pay. I’m sure you’re familiar with those books, “How to talk so kids will listen.” In those books, they talk about how when they did their workshops, a lot of people, especially boys because of how boys tend to be raised by their fathers, they have a lot of resistance accepting their methods even though they saw them work. Because they have that cultural worldview that somebody has to pay here. “Since I’m right and you’re wrong, you’re acting insane, it’s got to be you.” That’s the wrong way of even thinking about it.

S: I have come up against that a great deal. One of the comments that I get back is that I have been able to show parents that that is a lack of teaching that the child is crying out for. That misbehavior and doing something wrong is the only form of articulation that a child this age has.

So if you can change your mind about the fact that the misbehavior is not that you’re wrong, it’s that I’m trying to tell you in whatever way I possibly can, I don’t understand how to navigate this. One of the things that was really important to me, because I started out years ago in much more – similar to what Mazlish and Fabler were talking about. Let’s unlock that, let’s figure out why.

I always find that to be valuable ,and I always mention it to parents. But what I find parents really want is “Let me deal with my own personal process myself. Can you give me clues to how to solve this right now?” And that’s why it’s very practical, very what’s happening in your life today. It’s very valuable to look back. But that’s not the focus of what I’m doing, so I want to try and make it less threatening for parents.

I want them to understand that nobody’s wrong here. Nobody does it perfect. Probably the most important thing is life progresses. If life didn’t progress, we’d still be in the 1870s. We’d all be acting and dressing and behaving that way. But life progresses, which means our children progress as well. Our children are smarter, faster, and quicker than we were. It’s the way it’s supposed to be. Yes, we don’t have the same answers that our parents had, and their answers are not necessarily going to work with this generation of children.

C: That’s so true.

S: It is, and it’s something that’s gotta be said. It doesn’t make today’s parents wrong, it makes today’s parents very intuitive, very present. Because they get that something’s not working. We need new skills to work with the new generation. Because life is progressing.

C: I’ve never heard anybody put it that way, but that is absolutely on the money. I think sometimes that’s where there is a little bit of a struggle with parents, the younger generation of parents, when they are dealing with their parents, the grandparents. When there’s a disagreement about how to discipline children. My mom is always saying to my Dad, “Honey, that is not our world today. That was a different time, that is a different world.” That is really true, absolutely true. My teenagers are going to have a completely different life experience than my father did, and so therefore my relationship with them is going to be different. When he went to high school, he didn’t know what a joint was until he was in the workforce in his 20s, whereas my kids, I’m sure my 10 year old knows what a joint is.

S: It’s all over TV.

C: He’s home schooled, but if he was in school I’m sure he would know a whole lot more. By the time he’s a teenager, he will have faced being offered alcohol, sex, cigarettes, whatever. You name it. He’s going to have to face those things, and he’s going to have to have trust in me and the comfort to come to me and admit “Look, Mom. This thing happened today and I’m pretty freaked out about it.” It is a different time.

S: It is a different time. What most parents don’t realize is that trust is installed during early childhood. It is not something that you can diminish who they are, attack their self esteem, belittle their self worth in early childhood and then expect them to come to you when they’re a tween.

Because what’s already been installed is “I don’t have trust in myself. My parents prove it to me by the way they treat me. So why, all of a sudden when it’s important, when I’m 13, do they feel that they want to have this relationship? I have a history with them.” So we create a child’s history in early childhood. That’s where it begins.

I am not in any way saying it cannot be changed, because good lord, if that were the case we’d all be in real trouble. Human beings can change. But the foundation of who a child is is installed in early childhood. And their first bid for independence happens during early childhood. The way you handle it gets flushed out again when they’re a teenager. “How did my parents handle me when I was 4.5, or 3.5 and I was really belligerent? Could they handle me?”

I’ll give you a great example. My 17 year old, when he was going through his alcoholic bid for independence, just to be nice, … I’m a parent educator and have been for 17 years. Did it stop my children from having a rebellion? No. Did it stop me from reacting? No. It caused me to know a little bit more of where I needed to go, and I was a little quicker to go “That was over the top.”

But this is human nature. So, one day in the height of his rebellion, he decides he’s going to take the keys, walk out of the front door, and take my car. At that moment, what came out of my body was, – I always suggest that women drop their voice an octave if they can when they correct their children, because women tend to use their higher registers when they’re angry, and children can dismiss that.

I dropped my voice and said “Freeze. Give me the keys.” And he did. When the whole thing was over, I said “Why did you give me the keys?” He said “I have absolutely no idea.”

What I had done was what I call “pulling on his rope,” that was installed by me when he was in preschool. That was that firm voice. When I said to my four year old “Freeze”, he knew I meant business. I could tug on that when he was a teenager. I had him for 30 seconds, but I still had him stopped cold. So there’s a connection between early childhood and the teens years rebellion. Not a lot, but enough that when you install that firm authority when they’re little, still respectfully, you can use it again when they really need you to in the teens.

C: I like how you phrased it in a positive way. Instead of saying ‘Stop doing such and such,” you said “Freeze.”

S: Anybody that joins my web site gets a free life saving tip that teaches children the importance of the word freeze. I’ll leave it at that. It’s a really good one, and it will save a life. It did save my youngest child’s life. There’s a real difference in the way that you do that. It’s a free gift that we give people when they sign up on our list.

Yeah, the parenting that I suggest to parents is exactly what I said to the teenager. I use my authority, then I scale down the words and I make my statement. There’s no attack to self esteem. Now, after the issue is done, now let’s talk. Do you want to talk? Make an appointment. Take a few minutes. But nobody’s leaving here like this.

C: Well, Sharon, I’ve really enjoyed our conversation. I encourage my listeners to go to proactiveparenting.net and check you out. I was just quickly looking at some of the comments on your blog, and I’m enjoying the post about the 3 year old who picks her nose. My youngest has started doing this, and this is great. I’m going to do this immediately. “DO I need to take you in the bathroom?”

S: There you have it. It’s exactly the same thing. It’s a statement. Okay, everybody does it. I could tell you how gross it is, how my stomach is being turned, how I really wish you would never do that again, or I can just give you my statement.

C: Thanks again, Sharon. I appreciate this very much.

S: Thank you very much. I really enjoyed it.

NaBloPoMo #22

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My guest this week is Nora Coffey, president of the Hers Foundation. HERS aims to provide information about the consequences of hysterectomy and educate women about its alternatives. Nora is also the author of The H Word: The diagnostic studies to evaluate symptoms, alternatives in treatment, and coping with the aftereffects of hysterectomy.

This video is a fascinating look at the female anatomy and its invisible functions.

In mid November HERS is hosting a conference here in the Atlanta area. Friday night is a screening of the teleplay Unbecoming.

Points from the Show:

• As evidenced by the questions they ask post surgery, many women do not understand the functions of the female organs.
• Hysterectomy is the 2nd most commonly performed surgery (after Cesarean section)
• The medically accurate term for removal of a woman’s ovaries (gonads) is castration
• Doctors still falsely tell women that their lives won’t change after hysterectomy
• The uterus is a hormone responsive sex organ that has structural as well as physiological functions.
• The ovaries produce hormones all through a woman’s life, and are needed all their life (including post menopause).
• The uterus and ovaries play a role in the immune system.
• Among common effects of hysterectomy are greater risk of heart attack (3 to 7 times greater)
• The average age of hysterectomy was 42 a decade ago and now it is 36. Now, it is not uncommon for teenagers to have hysterectomy.
• A woman never needs a hysterectomy for fibroids.
• When women experience inevitable problems post hysterectomy are often told by their Doctors that the symptoms are “all in their head“.
• Post hysterectomy, women will not experience uterine contractions during orgasm, diminishing their sexual experience.
• Hysterectomy is a $17 billion dollar annual industry.
• Hysterectomy is very rarely warranted. There are usually alternatives.
• Some treatment options include myomectomy, fibroid removal surgery
• Endometriosis is widely overdiagnosed. An MRI of the pelvis is a better diagnostic tool than exploratory surgery.
• Drugs commonly prescribed for endometriosis are very dangerous.
• Acupuncture can balance hormones and is good for treating endometriosis. Diet and exercise are also important treatments.
• Women who eat a lot of soy products develop more endometrial hyperplasia and endometrial cancer. Soy stimulates an abnormally high amount of estrogen in the body.

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Having suffered from depression most of her life, Lisa has been able to stay medication free for 10 years, using only holistic means such as nutrition and aromatherapy. Lisa shares solid, effective tips and techniques for moms to manage their mood naturally.

Our winner of last week’s giveaway, Birth in a Box is Ginger. (Ginger look out for an email from me!)

Today’s giveaway is a sets of two play silks from Sarah’s Silks. Leave your comment by Wednesday, October 29th to qualify!

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Barbara is talking about Attachment Parenting Month, what API is all about, the release of their book “Attached at the Heart”.

She also gives us tidbits of the recent Teleseminar with Martha Sears and the upcoming Peggy O’Mara interview

A transcript of this interview appears below if you prefer reading.

P.S. You’ll notice the show seems a little “unfinished” this week. I’m having some computer issues and my desktop is in the shop being repaired, so I went low tech this week to get this audio to you instead of waiting until I got my equipment back

Winner of the recent giveaways:

Cycle Beads: Emily B

Land Organic Gift Set: Mary J

Thanks ladies, look for my email!

Now up for grabs:

The Birth in a Box from Waterbirth International. Birth in a Box is a birthing tub kit so if you are preparing for an upcoming home birth leave a comment below before Wednesday October 22 at midnight Eastern!

(Note: The winner for this contest has been chosen, thanks for participating.)

Carrie:  You are back with Carrie at Natural Mom’s Talk Radio and I am speaking with Barbara Nicholson, co-founder of Attachment Parenting International. Hello Barbara.

Barbara:  Good morning Carrie.

Carrie:  So this month is Attachment Parenting month.

Barbara:  Yes.

C:  That’s exciting.

B:  Yes we have claimed it as our own.

C:  Yes, I mean there is a month for pumpkins and there is a month for anti-procrastination surely there should be a month for attachment parenting!  So we’re going to talk today about what API is all about.  We did have Lysa Parker on the program two years ago (note: you can download this audio file here).  But you know for my newer listeners who may not be familiar with your organization, we’ll talk real briefly what you’re all about.  But also some of the cool things you have going on this month and your new book that is coming out soon.
photo credit: Ja-nelle

B:  Well yes, we are excited about many things. Just briefly, our organization has been around for about fourteen years now. AttachmentParenting.org is our website. We have support groups all around the country and internationally.  It’s really a safe place for parents to come and learn about nurturing parenting, positive discipline, and resources in your own community.

So our leaders that lead the group are accredited through our organization, and they are parents of at least an eighteen month old toddler. The leaders are really there just to facilitate the discussion, they are not there as parenting experts by any means.

But usually the families that come to AP Support Group meetings are very diverse, from working moms to stay at home parents, stay at home dads; I mean they are a wide variety of families that come.  So we’re really here just to help parents learn about positive solutions.  Also we have a wonderful network of professionals that lend their expertise to the organization.

C:  Awesome.

B:  Any other questions about API?

C:  No that about sums it up.  I think most of the listeners are familiar with the concept of Attachment Parenting.  So tell us what you have going on in the special this month.  I know by the time this interview is up on the site, we will have missed the first teleseminar with Martha Sears but I understand you have another one coming up at the end of October.

B:  Yes, October 27 with Peggy O’Mara, and you can learn a lot more about this on our website.  Just go to AttachmentParenting.org, and it will have all the information about this wonderful teleseminar with Peggy.  She’ll be talking about just some of the myths of parenting and just creating that strong connection with your child. She is such a wonderful resource for the natural parenting community.  She has written many books and we’re just so excited about this interview with her.

This is really to celebrate Attachment Parenting month which is the entire month of October. We have been real excited to see how our groups have been finding creative ways to get the word out in their communities about Attachment Parenting through different events, picnics and all kinds of creative ideas to connect with families and give them that support.

And Dr. Sears has been celebrating Attachment Parenting month on his website. There are several organizations that are kind of sistering with us or brothering with us, so we’re really hoping that this is our first month to do this, that over the years this movement will grow, and that October will be celebrated by many organizations and groups around the world.

Not necessarily just about what we would call Attachment Parenting, but just the joys of parenting and getting the more positive message out about “yes parenting is an incredibly challenging job sometimes, but basically when we practice this type of connection and nurturing, we learn so much about ourselves as human beings and how this is really what’s going to change the society”.

It always comes back down to what goes on in the home will reflect in the whole culture.  That’s how you change the culture, not from the top down.  It’s always from that basic unit of familial love and connection really changes the culture.

C:  I can’t remember where I saw this quote but I thought it was very poignant, it said, “Love your children not so they will love you back but so that they will love your grandchildren.”

B:  Wow!

C:  I thought that was really good.

B:  Very profound, I like that; I would like to have that on a bumper sticker.

C:  Maybe I’ll Google it and try to find out who said it so I can give somebody you know proper…

B:  Credit.

L:  Yes, thank you, proper credit.  So like I said I missed the teleseminar with Martha Sears that she talked about the myths of perfect mothering.  Can you give us a couple of quick sound bites from that? I bet that was an amazing discussion.

B:  Well the good news is you can get it from our website, you can just download it.

C:  Oh great, okay I was going to ask that, wonderful.

B:  Yes, because it was incredible.  Martha is just the most giving self revealing gift to all of us.  She really has been through some tremendous self reflection over the last several years and shares with us her journey.  She has suffered from depression, bouts of depression; she realizes she has been struggling with this her whole life.  But because of her capacity to nurture her children, and to see the thing is the Prolactin and Oxytocin I got from breast feeding that really kind of kept me in a more stable place.

C:  Yes.

B:  And it wasn’t until I weaned my last child that I realized wow, I don’t have that natural anti-depressant anymore.  She was dealing with a lot of issues from her own childhood as we all do.  She had some pretty significant losses in her early childhood.  Her father died when she was young, and her mother was really struggling; so she realized that now is the time in my life where I have really got to get serious, about getting some therapy and getting some help.

She is a wonderful model to all of us, as you notice what your red flags are in your life.  Notice what your red flags are, and if you find yourself repeating behaviors that you want to stop, and you don’t seem to have the capacity to do it on your own through reading books or talking to friends or going to a support group meeting, if that’s not enough then please, talk to a counselor.  Take care of yourself.  She kept using the analogy of the oxygen mask coming down in the airplane.

C:  Yes that’s a good one.

B:  And she says, “How many of us would put the oxygen mask on our child first?” She said that’s what I was doing, I wasn’t putting the oxygen mask on myself so I could take care of my children properly.”  And not that she harmed them or anything, but she realizes as they got older and were leaving the nest; now I’ve really got to take care of myself.

C:  Yes.

B:  But for many of us we need to be doing this all along that journey.  Perhaps because she had a big family, she had her husband Bill, she had so much support through La Leche League and many other support networks, and wonderful friends and her church that kept her going.  But for so many people who don’t have that, they really should seek professional help and nurture yourself.

C:  Yes, well I’m glad that’s available to download on your site; I would like to listen to that myself.  Okay so tell us please about your upcoming book.

B:  Oh we’re so excited.  After we’ve been an organization now for fourteen years, but Lisa and I have been working on this book since we first met.  In so many ways we have had so many conversations about the big picture.  What is the big picture, why is it so important that we nurture our children?

Like I was saying earlier, we were really wanting to not only talk about the principles of parenting that we expound as an organization, our eight principles of parenting, but to give parents the background of attachment theory, where does this come from.  And to look at different cultures around the world and the types of parenting that is practiced reflex, how violent a culture is; there is so much information out there so we tried to condense it into a volume, that wouldn’t be just overwhelming for parents.

It’s a very practical book, it has the eight principles and lots and lots of research and resources for parents. From websites and DVD’s to books, all these things that we have been collecting for all these years, we tried to pack it into this one book.

But it’s also for anyone who is interested; you don’t even have to read these chapters if you’re just desperate for parenting information. If you would like to delve a little bit more into the big picture and the cultural studies, and to look at these different parenting theories and how they have influenced modern western culture especially, we’re hoping that it will be a really interesting read, if you want to go into a little more depth.  So it’s a little bit of both, it’s the practical application and the theories and it all boils down to really a parent being affirmed and listening to their heart.

So that’s the title of the book; Attached at the Heart, Eight Proven Parenting Principles for Raising Connected and Compassionate Children.

C:  Well that sounds great.  When you were talking about some of the science around the attachment theory, I remember a book I read that just fascinated me, that talked about the way that generations have changed, because of the popular parenting philosophy of the time.  That was very fascinating and a lot of people need that information. For whatever reason, they may not be able to trust their own instinct or what have you, and they like to have that information so that is great.  But you know I think also so important is that parents seek out support from groups like API, and spend time with other parents who are doing that, because you can have all the good information in the world, and you can listen to your heart and that kind of thing; but if you don’t have that support of other people who are living that way you’re especially challenged.

B:  Absolutely.

C:  So that’s what so fantastic that you have the groups available.

B:  Well that is an absolute critical component, I’m so glad you brought that up because that’s why we started the organization.  That’s why it took us so long to write the book. We really wanted to get that foundation out there first.  How in the world can a parent survive without the connection of community, and we really, really lost that in our culture because we are so spread out, and we often move away from extended family.  Even if we live near extended family, if they are not a nurturing family then you still have to create that community.

So it’s really about a parent raising their consciousness, first of all ideally before they even have their baby.  That would be the ideal that we talk about in the book, if you’ve been considering getting pregnant or adopting a baby, then now is the time to start really reflecting on what kind of household do you want to have.  What was positive from your childhood, what was negative, what are the things that you feel like you need help with and you don’t want to repeat?  You start building that network of support.  For me and Lisa, that was La Leche League, We were so blessed that we were guided to go to La Leche meetings, thinking it was just about getting breast feeding information.  Then you were introduced to this whole nurturing group of women who were really a model for us as oh, that’s what I want to be when I grow up.

C:  Yes, absolutely.

B:  I want to be this calm centered mother who feels empowered and so proud of being a mother.

C:  And actually enjoying her children, which seems to be a foreign concept with so many people in our society.

B:  That’s right.

C:  That you could actually enjoy your children and find them fascinating and interesting and want their companionship.

b:  Exactly; and going to La Leche League conferences was another huge gift to us, because it expanded the mission of mothering through breast feeding into this whole parenting world; and this is when we were introduced to Dr. Sears and Martha Sears and their books, and a whole world of parenting books.

And then Lisa and I were educators, we were both teaching children with learning disabilities, so we were coming from that educational world, and seeing so many children who really didn’t have a “learning disability”, they were just not parented well.  You know they were just not read to, they weren’t given encouragement, and so we were parenting these children the best we could in the classroom. We realized to really make this shift in the culture it has to start with the parents, it has to start when the parents have babies and young children to plant those seeds of you are the most important person in the child’s life, and I know our society gives lip service to that, but I didn’t really experience it or live it, until I was around a group of really highly nurturing people who had the skills and the strategies to practice positive discipline.

I was raised in Texas, everybody was spanking, using pretty harsh discipline growing up, and that was pretty much all I knew.  Even though my mother didn’t do it that often I knew that each generation improves.  My mother improved greatly from the way she was raised, and I know she would expect the same of me; and I’m expecting the same of my adult friends when they become parents.

So let’s learn from the wisdom of our elders.  When we find someone that we really look up to, we admire their parenting, well then, pick their brain, talk to them, spend time with them and that’s what we want our Attachment Parenting Groups to be for parents.  Your children can grow up together just like Lisa and I, and so many of my La Leche League friends, our children have all grown up together, they have stayed friends, it’s just been a wonderful journey; and we felt like API could be an extension of that.

We’ve been so thrilled how the founders of La Leche League have given us their blessing and encouragement to expand this parenting model to all parents.  So whether you’re breast feeding or not, that’s another important thing I think that a lot of families don’t realize.  We are a parenting organization for all parents, and just using the breast feeding as an example.

We have many bottle feeding families that come to our meetings for whatever reason, they are adoptive or they didn’t work out, and we’re one of the few organizations that really give them help in the importance of how to feed a baby with a bottle.  You’re supposed to, you should switch sides for instance, you should always hold the baby; keep them in that same kind of breast feeding position, because that’s the distance that the babies eyes focus.  No one is really telling this to bottle feeding parents, you see them propping bottles, or the baby as soon as they can hold a bottle themselves, and they do. …

C:  Or not switching sides, I’m sure that’s something that most parents would never think of.

B:  No, I certainly wouldn’t have, if I hadn’t had the experience of breast feeding I wouldn’t realize wow, this is the time you really connect with your baby, and you’re forced to do it when you are breast feeding.  So I have a good friend who is a foster mother, and she was also a breast feeding mother; so when she gives a baby’s bottles she said, “I have such a deeper understanding now of how important it is that I be the one that gives the baby the bottle, and not just for convenience, pass him off to someone else, but because I want to create that connection with him, and that’s such a wonderful time. I think a bottle feeding parent needs to realize it’s time for you to sit down, put your feet up, not think I can just prop the bottle and go get the laundry done.” So it’s really a way for the parent to rest and have some down time also, it’s not just for the baby.

C:  Right, absolutely.  Well Barbara thank you so much for sharing what’s going on with Attachment Parenting International.

B:  My pleasure.

C:  I appreciate it very much.

B:  Any time.

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Jody is talking about the animal model of birth and postpartum care, how birth experience impacts breastfeeding, and what we can learn from farmers about improving outcomes for moms and babies.

To read a transcript of this interview, go here: Jody McLaughlin of Compleat Mother.

Jody has graciously offered to give away several prizes to help us celebrate our 100th show!

First up for grabs is a free subscription to Compleat Mother. To win, simply leave a comment below before Midnight Eastern Time, Tuesday October 7th - one commenter will be randomly chosen.

a

Jody: Thank you very much, Carrie.

Carrie: I’ve been a big fan of Compleat Mother Magazine for years. I subscribed for a long time, and I was a big fan of the Raspberry Leaf Tea. I think it was instrumental in my second and third births, very much. I’m a big fan.

Jody: Thank you very much.

C: So, Jody, we’re going to talk about several things today, one of which is birth, and after that breastfeeding. Your background is that you grew up on a farm. Anybody who grows up on a farm seems to have a unique view of birth.

J: That’s not exactly true. I have talked to people who grew up on a farm, and they don’t understand that humans are also mammals. If what you’re saying is true, North Dakota would have the best maternal and infant statistics in the world, and we do not. So the recognition that humans are also mammals is not fully understood, even for some people who grew up on a farm. I’m one of the exceptions, and I have met many more who understand that anything that interferes with privacy in birth can actually make the birth process more difficult and more dangerous. That also interferes with successful lactation. I wish it was true that anyone who had a connection to a farm would be able to make this connection, but unfortunately that is not true.

However, I have talked to a lot of people who do not have a connection with a farm and hardly even have connections with any kind of animal. But when I point out the specifics of making birth easier and safer and lactation more successful for humans, and then compare that to what we know to be true for animals, they understand, even if they live in a high rise apartment in New York city, and the only time they have contact with animals is when they walk down the sidewalk.

One of the things that I ask is if you had a baby puppy or a baby kitten, would you take it away from the mother, wash it, and then give it back? Universally, people say, “No, we wouldn’t do that.” I say “Why not?” “She may not accept it; she may not recognize it as her own.” This leads me to do some additional research as to why we have a compulsion to wash human babies after they’re born.

C: Why do we do that? That’s interesting, that you say that. My family bred Shetland sheepdogs for years when I was a child, and I remember very vividly what it was like when the mommies would give birth to the pups. That’s so interesting. Why do we have that compulsion?

J: I think partially we think that it’s because of hygiene. Because babies are born from that place in our bodies, that they must have to be decontaminated. The way I understand it is babies should be born from whatever part of the body they are designed to be born from. If we wanted a less bacteriologically rich environment for the baby’s to be born from, they would be born from our side, or our thigh, or somewhere, some other part of our body.

But it is absolutely vital for the baby to be exposed to the organisms from the mother’s bacterial environment. And being born between the space where we pee and where we poo enhances the appropriate colonization of the baby’s system. When babies are born, they’re born without colonization. They must get colonized immediately, and the best organisms to colonize the baby are the ones from the environment in which the baby will be living. Which, of course, comes from the mother.
photo credit: cheeky needle

One of the things that a mom can do if, for example, if she would have a caesarean section, is she can put her mouth over the baby’s mouth and nose as soon after the birth as possible. If she is not able to do this, then it must be done by the father, because the father also shares the bacterial environment with the mother where the baby will be growing up. This can enhance the baby’s ability to be colonized with the organisms from his or her environment.

We now know that there are additional problems associated with being born by Caesarean Section, in addition to the obvious ones. One of them is improper colonization. It’s absolutely vital for the parents to become proactive on this issue, and to do whatever they need to do to enhance the colonization of their newborn with the organisms from the environment in which the baby will be living.

One of the other issues about washing is the baby has a coating on his or her skin called vernix. Vernix is a wonderful emollient that is antibacterial and antiviral. It is absolutely imperative that this substance remain on the skin, to be absorbed by the skin.

It’s as important for the baby to have the vernix retained and not washed off as it is for the baby’s intestinal tract to get the colostrum, which is what the mother releases from the breast before her mature milk comes in. It’s as important for the inside of the body to have colostrum as it is for the outside of the body to have vernix.

C: That’s interesting. It always seemed to make sense to me that that creamy, waxy vernix that protected the baby from all that water in utero served a purpose for the skin, to protect it once they’re exposed to dry cold air.

J: I think that anything that happens over and over and over again must serve a purpose. Before we destroy that, we have to ask ourselves “What purpose does this serve?” Why would babies be born from the vagina rather than from some other part of our body? Why are babies covered with a substance called vernix? Why are little boys born with the foreskin still attached to the glands? Why do babies look around with such wonder as soon as they’re born? And on the other side, why do we put drops in the baby’s eyes that make them fuzzy?

Why do we take the babies away, when they’re doing testing, and then an hour, or two hours later, we put them back with the mom, when we know that these disturbances could severely impair an animal mother’s ability to care for and be vigilant of the safety of her own offspring?

C: I think that people, when they hear that, rationalise that “We’re higher creatures, we have rational minds, intelligent minds and reasoning capacity that makes us different from animals.”

J: I can agree with that. I think we have this higher degree of intelligence and reasoning capacity. That’s all the more reason why we can’t be disturbing this critical time period in the development of the mother/baby continuum.

C: We also have those hormones coming into play, in that very critical time for the bonding to take place, and we need that not to be disturbed.

J: We think about the bonding as something that happens at the very beginning. Yes, the surge in hormones of protectiveness do serve at the time of an undisturbed birth, a spontaneous birth. Because we are very social creatures, some of that can be overcome later on through our devotion to ourselves, and our devotion to our children, and our devotion to the people who create a safe environment, to ourselves.

The problem is with those of us who are in a gray area, those of us to whom I affectionately refer as the walking wounded. I know a little bit about this condition, because that is me. I was one of the walking wounded. I had two obstetrical births. I didn’t know then what I know now. I wish I had, they would have been much different. But you can only do what you can with what you know at the time. I was surrounded by women who did have high levels of this maternal feeling and expression towards their infants. I breastfed our children for a full term, and I was able to recapture some of the feelings that a mother needs to have to create a safe environment for her child. I was able to recapture and recreate that because of the choices that I was making, which was to breastfeed, and which was to surround myself with people who had a high level of nurturing behaviour towards their own children.

If women do not have the opportunity to have the elevation in the hormones of protectiveness towards their offspring, and are sabotaged in their efforts to breastfeed their children, and do not have an environment of women who are lactating for their own babies and children around them, this can be an incredibly lonely and difficult time.

Mothering is a 24-hour a day job, seven days a week, 12 months a year, for years and years. When people ask me what makes Compleat Mothering Magazine different from so many other magazines on the market, I tell them there has to be an easier way to do this. This is about how to make having children easier. Not only does this make having children easier, it also makes it more joyful. Parents who experience joy in their children’s presence are going to have an easier time being present with their children, an easier time being their parent.

photo credit: Ryan McCullah

One of the things that this attachment does, which I find so incredibly miraculous, is it makes children more charming. And the more charming they are, the more likely they are to be well cared for. The trick is how do we keep our children charming longer.

How do we stop this tendency for children to become tedious?

C: How do we do that?

J: By elevating the hormones of maternal respect, and creating, within the mother and the father, the highest desire to have a safe and protected environment for their children. I’d like to ask farmers “What do you do if you have a sluggish cow, sheep, whatever, who’s not quite mothering up? What are the tricks?”

And every farmer that I’ve talked to has tricks to get a sluggish cow to mother up. One said that he would sprinkle salt on the baby, and since the lactating cow craves salt, she’ll lick the salt off the newborn, and she’ll say “Isn’t that the most beautiful little creature you’ve ever seen!?” The hormones of protection have elevated. She’ll make sure that little one is always with her or safely hidden, she will always know where he or she is, she will recognize the sound of his or her voice, she will recognise the smell of her offspring, and she will always be vigilant about her young calf’s safety. When this happens, then the farmer knows the calf will be okay. Even if coyotes come, they know that the cow will protect her calf. No matter what happens, they know that her hormones of protection have been elevated, and her calf is going to be okay, and his year long investment in feeding that cow is going to pay off, because the outcome is good.

C: Wow. What else do they do? What are some other tricks they have?

J: Another trick is to introduce a small fright. Not a large one, but a small one. One of the tricks that my brother has used is if he sees a young heifer, inexperienced, she’s off by herself, she’s just given birth, and she really doesn’t know what’s going on. He will call the dog, and the dog will come and stand by his side, and the mother is watching the dog. The calf is able finally to stagger himself to his feet, walk around his mother, and find the business end of the cow, which, of course, is between the hind legs where the utter is, get hold of one of the teats, starts sucking vigorously, and my brother will stand there with the dog until the calf has been fully fed. Then he’ll slowly start walking away. The cow will see that the dog is no longer a threat to her. She’ll look around and say, “Where’s that cute little calf?” Her hormones of protection have been elevated. The baby calf had its first really good feed; it has received the colostrum, with all the wonderful immunological, antibacteriological inventory from the mother’s system. Now the baby calf is strong enough, he can follow his mom anywhere. And she is now aware of his presence, because as milk has been removed from her utter, more milk has come in to take its place. That fullness feeling is a signal for her to be close to her offspring.

C: How do you extrapolate these little tricks to human beings?

J: We start asking physicians and midwives “What tricks do you have to get a sluggish mother to mother up?” This is a whole new territory. A few midwives have tricks, but if you ask this question of physicians, they pretty much won’t even know what you’re talking about. Some of the tricks to get a sluggish new mom to mother up are to create an environment for her that we like to call the Baby Moon.

The Baby Moon is when she is with her baby 24 hours a day for 4-6 weeks. This seems like a long time, but if you think about a honeymoon, 4-6 weeks doesn’t sometimes feel like nearly long enough to be with your heart’s desire. In this Baby Moon process, the mother receives her sustenance. Someone comes in and does the cooking, the laundry, they screen phone calls, they limit visitors, they create a safe environment for the baby and the mom to create this lifelong connection. The need to be with your newborn, to feed your newborn, to comfort your newborn, to cradle your newborn, to smell your newborn.

Another trick for enhancing this mothering up process is not to bathe the newborn. When mother smells the baby as the baby smells when s/he is born, it creates a loving feeling in her. For this reason, and for this reason alone, it is absolutely imperative not to wash the baby. When the father smells the baby’s head, the father also experiences this. Noah Wyle, the TV actor from ER, talks about this in the video, What Babies Know. He tried to talk to some of his friends about “Do you remember what your baby smelled like? Do you remember how it just went into your nose, into your throat, into your chest, and it just filled you up so you thought that you were going to burst?” And his friends would say, “What are you talking about?” And he said “The smell of the baby.” And they said “What are you talking about?” He said “Oh no! They missed it.”

photo credit: Juls Knapp Photography

C: Yeah. That’s sad, isn’t it?

J: Incredibly sad. This is the only procedure that I know of which interferes with successful lactation and successful attachment, for which there is no billing code. There seems not to be a financial advantage to bathing the baby, although we are doing this without knowing why we’re doing it.

When my own grand daughter was born, I knew about the baby smell, and so did my daughter and my son in law. Of course she smelled beautiful when she was born, and for days after. Whenever my son in law’s mother would call, she wanted to know whether or not the baby had been bathed yet. I said “No, not today. Maybe in a couple of days.” “Why haven’t they bathed her?” I said, “She still smells really good.” “Shouldn’t she be bathed?” “No, she’s doing okay.” She called back a couple of days later. “Have they bathed the baby yet?” “Maybe this afternoon.” Then she called back that evening “Have they bathed the baby?” “No, they took a nap instead of taking a bath. Everybody’s fine and doing well.” “When are they going to bathe that baby?”

She’s not a medical professional. She loves and adores her grand child. This cultural imperative to make babies clean is something that really deserves more study.

C: And they’re clean to begin with. It’s not like they’re out working in the hot sun and getting sweaty and gross, and stinky B.O.

J: But even if they are out working in the hot son, getting sweaty and gross, that’s who they are. How people smell is who they are. One of the things I told my daughters when they are dating was “Know how he smells before he’s cleaned up, because that’s who he is.” The smell that he releases under different kinds of stress, whether physical work stress or emotional stress, should not be offensive to you. Know how he smells before you get serious about him. I’ve told young men the same thing about women. Know how she smells before she’s cleaned up, because that’s who she is.

C: That’s right. This is interesting, because after my babies were born, my mother never asked me when the baby was going to be bathed, but people do. She told me that with my big sister, she had an old country doctor who was her pediatrician, and he told her “Don’t you dare bathe that baby until she’s six weeks old.”

J: Wow. That’s incredible. One of the moms that I talked to, she was planning to have her baby at home. It didn’t work out; she ended up with a transfer. This was one of the few times where the Caesarean probably was truly necessary. This was a disappointment to her, but for a variety of reasons we’re very happy to have obstetrical units and trained surgeons and obstetricians to provide their level of care when it is truly needed. She was not able to have her baby at home as she had intended, but she was also grateful that she was able to have a Caesarean when it was truly necessary in her case.

She was proud of herself, because she had informed the medical staff that her baby would not be bathed. The nurse was a bit chagrined at this, and told her that if the baby was not bathed, the baby couldn’t be in the nursery. The mom said, “That’s fine, I don’t want the baby in the nursery anyway. I just want her to stay with me.” “Well, if you don’t let us bathe your baby, every time someone handles her they’ll have to put on gloves.” She said “I don’t want people handling my baby anyway, but if they need to and they have to put on gloves first, that’s fine with me.” She said, “I must insist, we must bathe the baby.” The mother said, “No, you do not have my permission to bathe the baby.” The nurse stomped out, and came back with a hand written sign that said “Dirty baby,” and put it in the baby’s bassinette.

C: Oh my gosh.

J: The mother was so proud, so incredibly proud of herself, that she put that piece of paper where the nurse had scribbled “Dirty baby” in her child’s baby book. Because she had advocated for her child, and this was proof of that.

C: Yeah, might as well own it.

J: She did. She said, “So many things went wrong that I didn’t have any control over. This was something I had control over, and by God, I was going to make sure that my baby didn’t get bathed.”

C: I have a couple of other questions for you. I’m intrigued by this notion of mothering up. I’ve got to research that more, I love that. I’ve noticed something in talking to a lot of mothers and working with women breastfeeding, like I used to do.

I noticed that mothers can get to a point when the baby is slowly starting to wean. Maybe the baby’s about 18 months old, or two, two and a half or three, where they are not enjoying mothering like they did.

Perhaps it’s a hormonal thing, if the baby’s nursing less, their oxytocin levels are adjusting, who knows? But what’s your opinion on that?

What can a mom do when she’s at that stage where her child isn’t as charming, and she’s not enjoying mothering as much as she did? What can she do to “mother up?”

J: That is an excellent question, and you are very astute to observe this. If someone was asking me this question, I would assume that they were not satisfied with finding their child less engaging, less endearing, less charming. I would assume that they want to recreate for themselves a better feeling and a closer feeling with their young person, their small person. So, depending on who’s asking me this question, I already know what the answer is.

If a woman would be asking this question I know that she wants to feel closer to her child. I would ask her what influences in her life are making her feel distant from her child? This could be “All my friends have gone back to work, I’m lonely, there’s nobody around for my daughter to play with anymore. Everyone’s in preschool, everyone’s in daycare. I feel isolated, I’m holding my daughter responsible because my life has become tedious, because I feel isolated and abandoned.” She needs to look at her environment to see what in her environment could be triggering this. And then she needs to create for herself, and by creating it for herself she will also create this for other people who may be in the same situation.

Create an environment where you can be with people who find their children utterly charming. This may mean that you need to find some new friends; you’ve got to go to new places. You have to spend more time at the farmer’s market, you have to spend more time at the park, or at the library, or to other child-friendly environments.

For the mom to feel that she may be loosing touch with her very small person, she also has to realise that her infant is becoming a toddler, her infant is moving away from her, as toddlers must. The mother and the father have to adjust to this. This is the child exhibiting a level of independence that the child has not exhibited before. This can be frustrating for a parent. They used to, if you set them down, stay there. They weren’t so mobile. The child has to move away from the parent, that’s how it works. But, as a child takes two steps forward, they also take one step back, and the mother has to make sure that when the child takes one step back, she is there with open arms and love and cuddling, as if he was a newborn again.

This is one of the reasons that mothers say that their toddlers are nursing even more than their newborns. They’re so busy growing up and expanding, making their world a larger place, and they need the opportunity to retreat to the safety of their mother’s arms and their mother’s milk. It’s a dance of independence. They move forward, they step back. They move forward, they step back. And when the mom is there without judgment, it’s a lot easier for the child to make this transition to a more responsible interdependence.

And it also makes it easier for the mom, because she sees all of these changes as inevitable, all these changes as progress, all these changes as an indication that her child is reacting in a wonderful, beautiful way with the child’s larger environment. She needs to revel in the child’s new skills, their newfound authority over their own personhood. They are going to exhibit these over and over.

But when they want to retreat, they want to know that Mom is there, as she always has been. It’s a wonderful way to be with a child as they are moving away from you, because when the mother stays where she is, when she does not waver in her feelings of love and affection for the child, the child can come back, and regroup, and recharge, and then go out and explore more of their world again.

C: That’s a wonderful answer.

Let’s talk briefly about some of the barriers that get in the way of a woman nursing her baby and what we can do to prevent those.

J: There is a very good book that was written several years ago called The Impact of Birthing Practices on Breastfeeding: Protecting The Mother And Baby Continuum. Mary Kroeger, with Linda J. Smith, wrote this book. It was published by Jones and Bartlett. Anyone who wants to increase breastfeeding success in their own community needs to purchase a copy of this book.

If our desire was to remove barriers to successful breastfeeding, one easy way to know what those barriers are is to move back to the animal model of maternity care.

If we know, for example, that creating a disturbed environment and interfering with privacy for the birth of an animal will limit successful lactation, then we know not to do that in the animal world. We can then move towards the care that is provided to humans, and understand that when we disturb the birthing environment, when the woman does not have a feeling of safety or privacy, that can likewise interfere with her ability to be successful at lactation.

One of the things that makes this whole process a lot easier is to simply ask yourself “Does this enhance or minimize breastfeeding success?” “Does this enhance or diminish lactation success?” You could ask yourself if caesarean sections enhance or diminish lactation success? It increases the success when the caesarean section is done when it is necessary. Because when the mother doesn’t live or the baby doesn’t live, of course you cannot have lactation success. So when the caesarean is truly necessary, this enhances lactation success. When we are doing caesarean section unnecessarily, then we know that it interferes with lactation success. One question that I’ve asked farmers is “What would an acceptable caesarean section rate be for your animals on the farm?” One farmer said “0.” I said, “Is that realistic?” He said, “I run 100 cows. In 12 years, we haven’t had one Caesarean section. So yes, this is realistic.”

C: Cows don’t know it’s an option.

J: You lose money every time you have a Caesarean section. You need to create an environment where the chances of that being necessary are reduced from the very beginning. For example, a farmer will always make sure that his animals are in good shape before he even puts them in with a bull. He wants to make sure the outcomes are good. He will make sure the animals are fed nourishing food, that they have clean water, that they have safety, that they have shelter, that they have good fresh air to breathe. He will make sure that they have these things because this enhances good outcomes.

Successful lactation is a critical component of having a good outcome. Because if the mother animal will not nurse her offspring, then that will have a very big impact on the farmer’s ability to survive financially. This is a critical component of why obstetrics works the way it does.

I have been working to change obstetrical practice for decades in my state, and have not been very successful. I finally found out why. The reason is because obstetrics works perfectly. It’s doing exactly what it was designed to do.

C: That’s right, create commerce.

J: That’s right. If it needed to do something different, it would. But it’s working perfectly as obstetrics was designed to work. If not, they would change it.

In my applying the animal model of maternity care to care for humans, this is a plan that I already presented to my local Blue Cross/Blue Shield company. Predictably, they weren’t interested. But under this system, the doctor, midwife, whoever, would be paid $100 per pound of live baby. If the baby is born without surgery, no caesarean section, no episiotomy, that amount would double. When the baby is breastfed at six weeks, that amount would double again. When the baby is still breastfed at six months, the amount would double again. It would double again when the baby is still nursed at a year, and again when the baby is still nursed for two years.
photo credit: jessicafm

Now this makes the goal of the good outcome successful lactation, and with this as the measure of a good outcome, it’s very easy for us to step back and ask a question at every turn in the road. Does this diminish or increase breastfeeding success? If it enhances breastfeeding success, than that’s something that needs to be encouraged. If it diminishes breastfeeding success, that’s something that has to be limited in it’s application. When we achieve these kinds of measurable good outcomes, then not only will our children be healthier, our families will be healthier, our communities will be healthier.

One of my favorite authors is Michel Odent, who wrote the book Farmer and the Obstetrician. He said no matter where he travels in the world, he knows that it’s safe to go out at night, because he knows what the ratio is between obstetricians and midwives in that country. The higher your rate of midwife to obstetrician, the lower your crime rate.

C: Is that because when babies are exposed during birth to drugs, it predisposes them to drug use later in adulthood?

J: Yes. There’s an important study done by Dr. Bertil Jacobson, an epidemiologist from Sweden, and he showed just that. Unfortunately, he wasn’t able to publish it because of political forces. But he did find a connection between children who were born under the effects of pharmaceutical drugs that were given to the mother during labor and birth, and higher incidents of drug abuse. This is predictable. Because even when everything goes well, birth is a stressful time, because it is a time of transition, of moving from an inside world to an outside world.

Transitions are always stressful, even when it goes well. This is a sensitive time period for the baby, and also a sensitive time period for mother. When the child enters different times of stress in their life, as they do, – toddler hood is stressful. Moving into adolescence is stressful. Moving into young adulthood is stressful. There will be a need, a desire to return to that which is familiar. To them, because of their own birth experiences, this is to be in a drugged state. This is a very important component of why drug abuse is so common in countries whose care system is dominated by allopathy and pharmaceuticals.

We also know that when children are suctioned at birth, that the suctioning process elicits a gag reflex. When this happens to them during this sensitive time period, during this time of stress, it actually can condition the individual to elicit the gag reflex during their own times of stress as they get older.

C: Sounds like anorexia.

J: It does. If we stop suctioning our babies at birth, it would be very interesting to see what this did to our rates of anorexia in our adolescents.

C: Has anyone ever found a correlation between …

J: Again, Dr. Bertil Jacobson found this, and he did write about this. It was very difficult for him when he published his findings, and this lead to him not being able to publish the information about the correlation between being born in a drugged state and later drug abuse.

C: This is fascinating stuff. I know we could go on and on forever.

J: This is something I want your readers to take home; this is the take home message. Any time someone suggests something to you or offers something to you, you have to ask yourself ‘Does this make sense to me?”

In answering that question, you will have a pretty good idea of what decisions you will be making. If you still don’t know, if you still don’t understand whether it would be a good idea, then ask yourself the second question, which is “Would we do this to an animal?” If you know in your heart of hearts that this is something you would not do to an animal, then there is probably a really good reason not to do it yourself, not to subject your child to this.

C: Great point. Tell us briefly about Compleat Mother, for my listeners who are unfamiliar with your publication. Tell us a little more about it.

J: Compleat Mother Magazine started publishing in 1985 in Ontario, Canada. The woman who founded this magazine, Catherine Young, was writing for a mainstream publication. She has this incredible birth story that she wanted published, but they weren’t interested in incredible birth stories. They wanted her to go to the Toronto Children’s Hospital, and do a story on the tiniest babies in the Intensive Care Unit, complete with tubes running in and out of their bodies, with close-up photographs. Catherine thought that it was obscene that they had an opportunity to do a story about a wonderful, incredible birth of a beautiful healthy child, but instead they wanted to do a story on babies that are born too soon and too small. This is, of course, a tragedy, and we need to know more about that, but this is not something that we need to be feeding into the hearts and minds of new parents, because this is very stressful to them.

The most important component that is nearly lacking in most women’s prenatal environment is the experience of joy. Catherine thought that if she could bring to new and expectant parents the possibility of having joyful pregnancies, joyful births, joyful breastfeeding, that this would enhance the health not only of communities, but entire cultures. Of course, she was right. But there are so many financial incentives to not have good outcomes.

One of the comparisons I make between the animal model and the medical model of maternity care is in the animal model you get paid the highest price when you have the best outcome. And in the medical model, you get paid the highest when the outcomes are poor.

So there seems not to be a financial motive to have good outcomes for humans. I believe this needs to be changed. I believe it can be changed, I believe it’s absolutely vital that it be changed, but I don’t have the power to do that. All I can suggest to women is if the system is not meeting their needs, they must walk away. I want to get back to that a little bit later, but first I want to tell you a little bit more about Compleat Mother Magazine.

This is the magazine of pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding. We have information in this publication that you will not find anywhere else.

C: I can definitely vouch for that.

J: One of the reasons that Compleat Mother Magazine is so resourceful and so innovative is because experts rather than professionals write almost all of our stories. You may ask the question “What’s the difference between an expert and a professional?” An expert is telling his or her own story. A professional is telling someone else’s story. We much prefer when people tell their own stories, especially when their stories contain an insight, an “AHA!” moment. An “Oh, now I understand!”

We need to know people’s stories when they move themselves from the walking wounded to the clearly focused. Because all of us have the chance to be among the walking wounded if our decision-making process is hindered by fear. We make much better decisions for ourselves and our children if our decision-making process is based on instinct, insight, resourcefulness, creativity, knowledge, understanding… understanding of our own motivations, understanding other people’s motivations. What I want, more than anything, is for people to create for themselves a secure environment in which they can make decisions they know are best for themselves and best for their families.

I wanted to briefly read something from a book a subscriber brought to my attention recently. The title of this book is Childbirth Yesterday and Today: A Story of Childbirth Through the Ages To the Present. The author is A. J. Rongy MD, who was an obstetrician. This book was published in 1937.

The last page of the book contains this sage advice. “If maternal mortality and morbidity is to be reduced at all, a change must be made in the practice of obstetrics. Meddlesome obstetrics costing the lives of many women must be eliminated. A method, a practice must be established, whereby it would be impossible for any obstetrician to “rush” his case. Artificial delivery, whether simple or complicated, should not be attempted…” And Dr. Rongy goes on to say: “But these and similar reforms can come about only as a result of pressure from the women of this country.”

And… “Regretfully, women do not seem to realize that men will never solve their problems for them; that is essentially a problem that should and must be solved by the women. They must concern themselves with the fundamental questions relating to maternal mortality; whether improvements can be obtained through government or private agencies; whether maternity centers, catering to and providing for all classes of society must be provided; whether steps should be taken to remove the haphazard methods of obstetrical services.”

I want to remind you, this was written in 1937.

C: wow.

J: We now know that the infant mortality rate in the United States is higher than 40 other countries. We have the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world. We also know that the maternal mortality rate is increasing.

C: The perception among so many women about that, though, is that it’s because women don’t have good access to healthcare.

J: The first thing I want to say is we have to understand the difference and the significance between healthcare and medical care.

C: That’s right

J: Healthcare is the food we eat, the air we breathe, the water we drink, the safety in our environment, having shelter. That is healthcare.

Medical care is surgery, pharmaceuticals, invasive procedures and tests; that is medical care, not healthcare. There is an important book called Expecting Trouble: The Myth of Prenatal Care in America, written by Thomas H. Strong JR. M.D., obstetrician, neonatologist from Prescott, Arizona. In his book, he points out that the poor outcomes increase in direct proportion to how much “prenatal care” the woman receives.

C: I believe that.

J: Because of his reflection on this, I have started calling this process Prenatal Scare rather than prenatal care, because women are frightened over and over into compliance, into saying “yes” to things they may not be sure is okay for them. All these tests, AFP tests, chorionic villi tests, all the ultrasound scans, we know babies don’t like ultrasound scanning. All these things that are done over and over frighten women, impair the ability to feel joy in her pregnancy, and ultimately create a poor outcome.

The most important thing a woman can do after she has enough good food to eat, clean water to drink, fresh air to breathe, and a safe environment is to experience joy.

And one of the best ways to experience joy is through singing and dancing. When was the last time a physician asked a woman “Did you join that signing group I asked you about? Are you dancing? Are you moving your hips?”

C: I’ll have to look into that book, because I was trying to make an intelligent argument with a woman who thought the answer to our high infant mortality rate in the United States was socialized medicine. I don’t believe that’s the answer.
photo credit: eyeliam

J: It would be, if the care provided was appropriate.

C: That’s my point. The very women who do get ‘free’ healthcare in this country are the women who have the worst infant mortality rates.

J: What if the poor quality of medical care given to people in our country was given to even more people? I recently got a letter from one of my congressmen about “improved healthcare” – I’d asked him about medical care, not healthcare. We don’t have a healthcare system in this country, although our medical care system is in dire need of being reformed.

His answer was to provide more cheap pharmaceuticals. We already know that more people die of complications of their appropriately prescribed and appropriately ingested pharmaceuticals than from many other causes. The number of people that die from drug reactions is staggering. His answer was “Provide more drugs.” And so I can see from his response that he has been highly influenced by the pharmaceutical industry.

C: That’s right.

J: I think the lobbyists are doing more to destroy our ability to create for ourselves a workable medical care system. We need medical care but we don’t need it as it is now being delivered. We have many people who need medical care who can’t get it; we have many people who don’t need medical care who are getting an abundance of it. It’s my assessment that we probably have about the right amount of medical care, but the people who need it aren’t getting it, and the people who don’t need it are getting it. We just have to find a way to equal that out.

I don’t have a voice in Washington. I don’t know if you have a voice in Washington, but right now the lobbyists are the ones who are calling the shots. They are actually writing the bills that are passing into laws. I can’t do anything about that. All I can do is walk away.

C: And you can continue publishing your magazine, which educates mothers and women, and we as individuals can make those decisions.

J: Don’t forget about the fathers.

C: And fathers. Well, Jody, I know we could talk all day, and I would love to have you back on the show again. Again, I am a big fan of your publication, and I’m so happy that you’re my 100th guest. I’m so pleased with that. Thank you so much for joining us.

J: Thank you so much.

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On Friday when I sent out my newsletter, I asked you all to support me in celebrating my 100th podcast. Whee!

My friend Jen created this cute little graphic for me so if you’re so inclined, you can use it in a blog post or on your site to help spread the word.

The 100th show will be up Monday morning, a week from today, so you can use it now or wait until Monday if you wish.

Thanks for making the show great!

p.s. You can right click on the image and grab the graphic’s url and use that if you wish. I share bandwidth.

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Listen by clicking below or read a transcript of this interview by clicking here: Your child’s brain development.

Special announcement:

Monday, October 6 is our 100th show!

Would you call my listener’s line and share how you feel about the show? Dial (214) 615-6505 ext 2560 and let me know how you enjoy Natural Moms Talk Radio (I might use your testimonial on next week’s show so be sure to mention your website if you have one!)

Can you help support me in getting the word out about this?

I would really appreciate if if you mentioned NMTR on your site, blog, to your friends, Twitter about it, mention it on your Facebook page or wherever else you hang out online.

To celebrate I’ll be giving away tons of goodies. Everything from magazine subscriptions and books to a cloth diaper and sling… all kinds of great prizes. I also have a special guest, Jody McLaughlin of Compleat Mother magazine.

Here is a graphic you can use on your site to link to me if you desire.

Would you like to advertise on Natural Moms Talk Radio?

If you would like to expose your product or service to over ten thousand natural mamas each month and get right in their ears on the podcast, go here to see the advertising options. (For a measly $10 you can even get a directory listing!)

Thanks for being a listener.

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Carrie: My guest this week is Donna Bateman. Donna is a mom of 8 and if that wasn’t enough, a neurodevelopmental specialist. I can tell you have a lot of passion and you want to help parents and teach them what you’ve learned. Tell us what Parents with Purpose is all about.

Donna: Parents with Purpose is all about empowering parents with information. It’s so often that we parent by accident. Something happens, and we say, “Wow! Something happened and I wonder what I should do about it?” We spend so much time reacting and responding instead of stimulating and guiding. We want to put parents back in the driver’s seat. Give them a road map – here’s point ABC and how to get there.

Especially when it comes to an area that so many people think you can’t be in charge of and that’s the brain development of your children. Since the brain runs the whole show, that would be a great place to start.

The brain is everything.

So many people come to me and say “My child does this or that, can you help with that?”

Well if it starts in the brain, yes we can. And what doesn’t start in the brain? The emotions start in your brain. Your motor responses start in your brain, your academic skills, social interaction…

And so if someone has something that’s not going the way that it should, basically if someone isn’t academically successful, physically coordinated, and socially gracious…something is not working the way it should. And we can pinpoint through the integrative and developmental progression chart that whatever part of the brain is responsible for specific functions, and if something isn’t working well we can work to stimulate that particular area of the brain in an orderly way that we know the brain responds well to.

And it’s amazing when you go to the root cause of problems of the symptoms of that problem just go away.

C: I’m all into the root cause of things. I’m very much an advocate for figuring out the root cause and not just treating the symptoms.

D: I have a friend who is kind of the opposite of me, but we’re still friends. And when her children get a cold, she gives them a very strong cold medicine for 3 days so that they don’t wake up until they’re over the cold. And yeah, I tell her “Sweetheart, they still have the cold, you’re just drugging the symptoms. Perhaps we could find out why they keep getting colds. Could we look at the fact that they only ever eat processed foods and drink a ton of soda and they’re video gameaholics. Huh? I wonder if there’s some immune system not getting what it needs, so that every virus that flows by means you’ve gotta rush out to the drug store. Could we look at the root cause of that? You just gave away 3 days of your kid’s lives…could we fix that, could we turn that around to be a happier cycle instead of a negative one?”

So hopefully if I keep rubbing her in that she’ll get the idea! I love getting to root causes. I love looking at the facts and every time I teach a class to parents, and I usually teach an 8 hour class where parents come and I go through the whole development of the brain. Every time I teach that class, [parents look at me and say, Wow! This wasn’t some complicated, difficult to understand thing, I can understand this, and by the way, it kind of makes sense. It is how people really do develop. It’s very common sense.

And so once they can see it laid out clearly before them, the problem doesn’t seem so overwhelming anymore. They don’t have a label, but they do have a cause.

A label would be something like Autism or Cerebral Palsy or ADD or Asperger’s Syndrome which is so commonly diagnosed these days. Any of those – I mean I know of over 300 labels for brain injury – but none of them are really talking about what’s specifically going on in the brain.

When I talk with parents after I evaluated a child, if they ask me to do that, I might say “Well, your child has a mild/moderate/severe or profound injury to the…[part of the brain affected]“. It could either be extensive, over a lot of the areas of function, or a few of the areas of functions. It could be bilateral or unilateral. It affects one or two hemispheres. So I really want to talk about what is happening in the brain.

Because if we can get that brain functioning perfectly well, then we won’t be talking about “Billy can’t read, or Sally can’t sit in her chair or Cindy Lou keeps beating up her sister all the time, or any of those words or big ones, like little Johnny won’t ever look anyone in the eye.”

Probably the biggest thing parents have trouble with is I can’t say something to them, and reasonably and reliably expect that it will happen. I can’t give them a 4 step request and know with pretty good accuracy that they’re going to get it.

But you should be able to do that. By the time a child is 6 years old, they should be able to perform a 4 step request. So it’s exciting when parents believe that it can happen, that things can get better, because when you’re in a negative place, it’s kind of like “let my people go”. Wow, I can actually get to that positive place.

Especially if you’re hearing negative messages from family members and teachers and neighbors, if you’re constantly being bombarded with negative messages about your child, I can’t think of a worse place to live.

And you get defensive a little bit because that’s your precious child. And you probably already know that things aren’t going right, but you really don’t want someone… well you start t feel attacked. And so again, another negative vicious cycle. You feel attacked so you get defensive, so noone wants to say anything. So what’s happening is that child is not getting the help with an issue that we really can help with.

I’m also reading a really great book right now called the Brain that Changes Itself.

C: I’ve heard about that. [Note from Carrie: I read this book after the interview and it's amazing!]

D: My poor husband is not getting a lot of sleep while I read! Because it’s just so exciting, and I have my computer also set on Google alerts, that it brings information that pops up on the internet and dumps it into my email. It is so exciting to me as I’m reading about all this research because honestly Carrie, not one thing I’ve read says that I’m wrong.

Everything I’m reading says yes, we can change the brain. And the only thing that we’re doing wrong in these efforts to change the brain and make it sronger and better is that we aren’t doing enough. The brain it capable of so much more than we have been giving it credit for.

I wanted to tell you one story about a little boy that I evaluated and I am going to use his first name because I already talked to his mom and she said I could. Little Timothy was ten months old when I bumped into his mother on an internet chat group. He had gotten a vaccination and started screaming 24 hours a day. He lost all of his mobility and all of his language except for the screaming. She was a very young mother in her early 20’s and this is her first child and she was beside herself. The Doctor kept saying, “Oh you’ve just spoiled him, you just need to let him cry.” Noone was giving her any good answers.

I bumped into her on the internet and immediately emailed her, started having her do some detox because I knew he’s gotten this vaccination. Having her do some very very gentle detoxification with clay baths, and within a day he quit screaming. So she took my class and asked me to evaluate Timothy. We did, and little bit I know that she had had early childhood intervention evaluate him the day before my evaluation. I evaluated that little Timothy was six months behind in language. Even though he was a ten month old, he had a language ability of a 4 month old. And he was behind in almost all of his abilities. I wrote a program specific stimulation for the brain. What I learned about Timothy was that he couldn’t process sound properly. I blasted an air horn at this sweet little boy and he didn’t even blink. And a ten month old should come completely unsown, they should be crying and climbing up on mommy, they should be unhappy. That’s a save your life skill of a threatening sound makes me pay attention and be fearful for my life.

So she went to work on this program that I wrote for her to do in her home with her son. Her early childhood folks had said he needs speech therapy and our first appointment is in 3 weeks and we’ll come to your home. They showed up 3 weeks later, they had been doing my program for those 3 weeks and he had gained those 6 months worth of language in those 3 weeks and his services were terminated on that first visit. They did do a follow up just to make sure, which I probably think is a good idea. They did a follow up about 6 months ago before his 2nd birthday, and she had remained on the program I asked her to do and I had updated it because he needed different things. He was evaluated right before his second birthday by someone else, as being almost a 4 year old in skills.

This is a very good mother, a very diligent mother, but she’s very young and doesn’t have a ton of training. She doesn’t live in a big city, she lives in a small town. It’s not like there’s a plethora of stuff available for her. It’s just really simple things that are important to the brain. It’s the way ababies are supposd to develop.

C: You’re talking about the Baby Einstein DVDs, right? [laughs]

D: You now, actually I’m kind of not.

C: Something told me that, reading through your website, the articles… I definitely got that.

D: I’m actually kind of not. And would I say that Baby Einstein is probably better than Teletubbies? Yeah, I would probably say that. But there’s a couple of problems I have with any kind of DVDs in particular. One is the repetitive nature of them. Those repetitive over and over again – what does that sound like? It sounds like some negative autistic behaviors. Another one is the fact that they are probably -  little babies if they are watching those DVDs – they are probably in a physical position that I don’t think is good for them. They’re strapped in a chair or an exersaucer or sling or some kind of device that sits them up.

C: Let’s talk about that for a second. I noticed on your site that you talk about the importance of physical activity. Something that interested me in recent years is the research around exercise being an effective antidepressant. You mention that and talk about the importance of children getting lots of physical activity. Does it matter what kind of physical activity or are you talking about a specific type of exercise?

D: What I’m talking about what would be appropriate for their stage of development. I think infants should be sleeping on their stomach, because infants are born to move. They’re created to move. When you’re pregnant, if a baby’s not moving, it’s very alarming. We rush off to the doctor and they whip out all the big equipment, everybody’s rushing around. But the minute that baby’s born, the first thing they do is wrap them up tight so they can’t move. And I’m just thinking, wait a minute. And hour ago, inside of me that would have been a problem, why is it ok now?

Then they put them on their back. Well, how much movement are we going to get then? A problem with head shape.

C: Or we’re getting a kind of a scary jerky movement. Babies don’t really like that unsettling feeling of being on their backs.

D: And what we’re teaching them is, when they are on their backs and they move their arms and legs, they don’t go anywhere. So we are sending them very bad messages about what your arms and legs are supposed to do. When you put a tiny baby on their tummy, in the crib, down at one end of the crib, and you go back later when naptime is over, most likely you find baby head up against the other end of the crib, right? They’re just boring a hole in the crib to keep going. In their sleep, they are moving and that crawling, which the medical definition of crawling is on the belly like a commando soldier under the barbed wire.
photo credit: bardgabbard

That belly crawling is the organizational duty of an area close to the brain stem. That’s also the area where we develop tracking, our eyes moving smoothly from left to right, which is a super important skill in reading. The more they crawl on their bellies, the more they move, truly for transportation, getting somewhere… the more that organizes that and catapults that up to the next level which is up on to their hands and knees.

To the next level, on hands and knees, we call creeping, and that organizes the mid brain. They creep and motor al over the house they destroy everything room 18 inches down in the house, and they’re learning. They’re putting a ton of input. They’re developing their depth perception, because now they’ve got to be able to see from their shoulder to the floor. That’s the ability to perceive depth. And they creep and motor all around the house and a whole lot of good creeping really develops mid brain and catapults them up into the cortex which is where we start walking.

C: Let me ask you, Donna. I was having a discussion with someone and we were talking about how especially in the States, parents seem to be a little overly concerned about safety and cleanliness issues. A lot of people don’t want their babies and toddlers crawling around on the floor, because they’re so worried about them putting things in their mouths etc., when that’s the way they learn… what are your thoughts on that? A parent who may be worried about that issue.

D: We are hyper sterile. Try finding any soap in the world that isn’t antibacterial. Do we want to kill every bacteria? No, a lot of it is good for us. My husband’s a Scoutmaster so you can imagine that with 5 sons, 3 daughters and a Scoutmaster husband, cleanliness has never been able to be at the top of my list.
photo credit: ZiarciRose

So, we have to kind of let kids be kids.

When I was growing up, we ran around all day outside. If you needed a drink, it came out of a water hose. We learned about tadpoles splashing around in a creek, not by sitting in a desk drawing a picture labeling all the parts of the life cycle of a frog. And yet we wonder then why our kids kind of don’t get the ideas that we already knew.

I grew up spending some time on my Grandmother’s place and she had cows. I recently – and I live in a metropolitan area – and I did this little experiment with my own children. We were pushing this cart apparatus through a pasture. And my kids were petrified.

“Oh, there’s the cows, what are we gonna do?” “

We’re going to keep walking, the cows will get out of the way.”

“But what if they come at us?”

“Honey, cows don’t do that.” “

But, Mom! What if this cow won’t move!?”

I said “If a cow doesn’t move you hit it on the behind and then it will move. “

“You actually touch it!?” You do!

And so, I was a little mortified that I had skipped that part of experience for my children, that what I knew as a 5 year old in the pasture, my 15 year old football defensive lineman was afraid of this cow. “

Well, it may be a bull mom!” “

Honey, I’m promising you that’s not a bull.”

It was actually a funny thing. So I robbed them a little bit of having that experience. And believe me, they understood about cows before I let them out o that pasture.

But we rob our children of experience.

We do have to be careful certainly I am not happy to see a baby with marbles in his mouth. That’s not safe. But a baby who has dumped out all the Tupperware in my cabinet and is chewing on al the lids, well, they’re gonna figure out. They’re learning, they’re experiencing. And it’s not a lot of fun to have to clean up all the dirt from the plant that has been dumped over, and derooted. And they now know more about the plant than I wish my carpet knew, but you just vacuum it up and move on.

We joke in our house that no boy is considered a real boy unless he’s broken a window.

C: Well in my house it’s my daughter that’s the real boy because she’s broken a window! She throws like a girl, for sure.

D: I love a girl who can bust a window! Every boy in our house can now replace windows. We can’t rob them of those experiences. Things do happen. Accidents do happen but they are so very rare and uncommon.

Unfortunately, by trying to protect them what we are really doing is shackling them. By not letting them experiment, by not letting them move around on the floor.

It is a statistical reality that if you keep a baby on their back and never let them move until they walk, you have about a 5 time increased risk of them needing Ritalin, according to the mainstream world. It is a prescription for learning disabilities.

C: Let me ask you this question Donna. Is there anything that can be done with a child who never crawled? That’s the way that it was with my oldest. He’s ten years old and certainly not struggling with reading, he’s an avid reader, bookworm, and he reads better than a lot of high school students I know, but he never crawled. That’s always concerned me a little bit. I would try to give him tummy time and he just hated it! He would just scream his head off. It always concerned me that he pretty much immediately went to walking. He went to holding on to furniture and scooting around. Is there anything I can look for? If you believe that you have a healthy child what are some things you can look for that might be areas of concern?

D: Is there anything you can do for kiddos who didn’t crawl? Absolutely. You can go back to the future.

We can get them right back down and get them creeping and crawling all over again.

My children are doing it, and you have to get creative and make it fun. And it doesn’t need to be a negative thing, it can be lots of fun. My kids enjoy it. I read novels to them while they’re going around in a loop. They know how many “laps” they need to get done, and we do that, because we need it.

Things to look for: as soon as you said he’s a great reader that’s awesome, that’s fantastic. I have a quote on my Facebook page from my 24 year old son, I was in a bookstore with him and he said “What are you looking for?” I said “I’m looking for a children’s book”. He said “That’s ridiculous mom, that’s too broad a category”. I said “No, I’m looking for a children’s book”. And he said, “Mom, every book is a children’s book if the kid can read.”

C: That’s true.

D: I thought, wow – I hadn’t though of the broad concept of every book. So that’s great, but I wonder what his depth perception is like.

How is his running? Running is a beautiful thing. I think one of the reasons we like to watch the Olympics so much is those runners who can really run well, it’s just beautiful. It’s so graceful and smooth. Not everyone looks like Michael Johnson, because he obviously gets it. But the form should be the same.

It should be smooth, graceful, their arms should be up and pumping in a cross pattern, and their posture should be nice. We shouldn’t be hunched over, have our heads down. Some children who don’t get the crawling – when they’re running I see their arms drop down or flail out to the sides, and their running might not be super coordinated.
photo credit: icultist

Their depth perception can be certainly an issue. They don’t just go ripping up and down a brand new set of stairs, they might be a little more cautious. Where depth perception is really told is if you try to hit a baseball. When you’re up at bat you strike out a lot – I question how well your two eyes work together. Because both eyes, the triangulation of vision – both eyes bring a picture into the brain and overlap it perfectly, so that they have the picture with some depth. Unless they’re not working together perfectly and then that image is a little bit distorted so that hitting – for a ten year old hitting a 70 mile an hour fast ball coming at him – should be something he can do. If we’re struggling with that, let’s look at perhaps why.

Some issues with depth perception and coordination would be a real question for me for a child that didn’t creep and crawl.

Another question would be, how are they with sound? Are they comfortable in noisy environments?

C: That’s interesting. He seems to enjoy being the noisy person but has no tolerance for other people’s noise.

D: Right. Well, that is something I do see a lot of. Of course they’re comfortable with sound, they’re the loudest person in the house! But your own sound is like white noise.

In fact some children who are really loud are creating all that noise because they can’t deal with the other noise.

C: Ah.

D: When they’re not comfortable with sound, when they don’t locate sound well – and this is a skill that a lot of parents are not aware that is so important. By the time a child is 8 months old, they should be able to locate a sound just by the sound without visually seeing the sound. So that – in fact it’s a kind of a funny thing that happens. You’re sitting there nursing the baby and Dad comes home from work. And he comes through the front door, baby hears that front door and they instantly turn that head – to see Dad coming in. Unfortunately they don’t let go of the breast!

C: Or they do and you spray everywhere!

D: I go for spray rather than blood! But they instantly hear that sound and turn that head and they know exactly where it’s coming from. That’s really important for a lot of reasons. We rely on the location of sound a great deal for the meaning of that sound. I see people – there will be some sound – and they’ll say, what’s that sound? Where is that? Where is that? And when they say what’s that sound, they’re looking all around. They’re not just sitting there trying to figure out… well, it might sound like this or that. No, they’re looking.

C: They’re trying to figure out where it is, not just what it is.

D: Because once they see where it is, sometimes you can’t even see the sound. Like when somebody’s cell phone is going out of battery and stuck under the sofa cushion? What is that beeping? And you look around and you see where the beeping is coming from and you realize it’s under the sofa cushion and you know oh it’s got to be a cell phone. You didn’t see it but you know by where it’s located that it’s gotta be the cell phone because the remote doesn’t beep like that. So we rely on the location of sound a great deal for what that sound means.

Children who can’t locate sound well misinterpret information a lot.

C: What does that look like, misinterpreting information?

D: Children who appear to be defiant. Some children will be really honest about it and they will just be confused. Children who struggle academically a great deal. A great deal of children who struggle academically can’t locate sound.

Sometimes I come home after I do a number of evaluations I have my children locate sounds for me so that I know there is a child alive who can locate sound. Because I see it so commonly in 100% of the children I’ve evaluated, there are issues with locating sound.

C: How does a parent know that’s what’s happening?

D: You can play a little game with them. Slip a little blindfold on or ask them to close their yes or cover their face and you have a bunch of different sounds. You make the sounds from over, under, beside, in front, behind, make sound all around and make a variety of sounds – high pitched, low pitched, and then say point to where that sound is coming from. And you want it precisely. You want one pointer finger goes out and they can touch it. You don’t want them waving their arm around saying, “Well it’s somewhere over there”. That tells you that maybe we have the general idea but not exactly where it is. And you should know right exactly where something’s coming form. And you should know that by the time you’re 8 months old. So you can imagine in an 8 year old how confused they are when they don’t have that information to work with that an 8 month old should have. I evaluated one little boy who could not locate any sound in front of him. I’d be jingling a little bell or banging a block or making different noises in front of him and he would point over his head or behind him or down to the floor.

Can you imagine the struggle for that young man in a classroom?

C: Or when his parents ask him to do something…

D: His parents have quit asking. They don’t even call him anymore, they go get him. They can’t holler from the kitchen into the family room and say, “Little Billy, c’mere!” Because little Billy has no idea where you are. And he’s ten! This little boy – he’s going to be 11 soon. And it makes everybody so impatient with little Billy so he’s getting all these negative messages all the time. “Why don’t you just come here?! How comes I can’t ever ask you to do anything? You know I can ask a 3 year old to do this and you can’t do it!”

A this negativity towards little Billy when he just can’t locate sound. And we can set up a program for him where his brain could learn to do that. There’s a very well known – there are lots of auditory programs and some of them are highly successful and I do sometimes use those kind of technological programs eventually, but our beginning programs with locating sound, laying the foundation for being able to do that, those are all simple things that can be done right in the home with objects from around the house. It is not expensive. Unfortunately some of the technological programs cost – I know one program that just one round, 8 – 12 weeks of it, costs over $3,000. Really effective but very expensive. We can lay a foundation for that with very little cost.

C: So if a parent is listening and they’re not located in Texas where you are, are you able to work with a parent – can they avail themselves of your services remotely?

D: Absolutely. I travel. I will be spending 12 days in California in San Jose and in Long Beach teaching and evaluating children there. Some parents like to put together a group of concerned parents. I know I had a group in the Colorado Springs area that called me up and said we had 5 families who want you to come. We’re going to pay – those families split my travel expenses and I came and spent over a week there and worked with those 5 families and then I came home. Then some families come into Dallas and that’s always an option also. It’s usually a lot less to fly me, one person, than to fly the family. And I like being able to go to people’s homes. One little girl that I saw – I was so glad that I went into her home because she really needed a program very very much and I was able to give her parents some things that she needed. But I said the number one most important program for your daughter is an honor and respect program for her two big brothers.

C: Ah, I think I need a little bit of that around here!

D: And we all do. We need a little honor and respect in my house very once in awhile. But they needed that. This family needed a little bit of re-centering. By them bringing me to their home I was able to see that. If I had some big clinical office that they just walked into, I would have never known that was the case. So because I was able to help sort of re-center this family in that way.

Because when you have a child with challenges, it can really warble off center the whole family. Then we start coping, we start kind of defaulting to convenience foods, to videos as baby sitters, to letting children argue with us, letting children do things that we shouldn’t do because we’ve got this extra challenge here we don’t think we can really deal with all of it. When in reality if we can reorganize the whole family then we can all deal with the challenge together. And that’s something that’s really important to me. I don’t usually write a program for a child, I write a program for a family. I’m there to strengthen the family and help them pull together and work together. When I write a program for one child in a family to creep and crawl, I recommend that we all join in the parade. What, our brains are gonna be too organized? I don’t think so. It’s good for the whole family to work together.

So families can bring me out, I like to visit their homes and see the flow. You get to know a friend, the first time you go to their home you know so much more abut them then you ever knew just chatting together at the library. So I like to do that, and families have that option or they have the option of coming to Dallas too. However it works best for them, I want to be flexible to work with them.

C: That’s awesome to hear – that you’d be wiling to travel. Let’s end on this last question.

Tell us some things, some simple things, that parents can do every day to help their child’s brain development.

D: Number one: Nutrition.

That is a whale of a topic that we can spend days talking about. But number on, nutrition. Get rid of the junk food. If you can buy it in a drive through, please don’t eat it. And if you won’t eat it, please don’t feed it to your child. Some basic nutrition: please eat as close to nature as you can. An apple is better for you than apple sauce.

C: Or an apple is better than apple juice.

D: Oh apple juice is not necessary. Your child needs to drink water water water water water. Please – a good rule of thumb is take their body weight in pounds and have them drink half that number in ounces. So if they weighed 50 pounds they would drink 25 ounces. Every day, of water and they would eat vegetables and protein and fruit and wholesome food. There are specific diets for specific children, but that one would be just a common sense – eat like Grandma tried to teach you to eat please.

Number two, the floor as a way of life.

Young children should be on the floor. They should be running, creeping and crawling all around – the floor as a way of life. Once they become vertical they’re up on their feet, walking and running and then a little more walking and then maybe some running – just mobility times ten. Another thing is that we do live in the United States and we do watch movies and we do watch DVDs and my children and I watch movies together and I’m not opposed 100% to television. But an interesting thing you can do with your children is set your DVD player to a foreign language.

C: That’s fun, I’ve done that.

D: If you want to see something hysterical, watch Toy Story in French. It is the funniest thing in the world, Buzz Lightyear trying to be all tough guy in French. If you expose your children to foreign language, you will literally grow a bigger brain for them in a significant way. Children all over the world are speaking multiple languages, we in the US are lazy about that.

So that’s a simple thing. They learn English – by hearing us talk. So, if they only watched Winnie the Pooh in Spanish, guess what? They’re going to get a whole lot of Spanish. And they’re going to set those tones and phomenes that are unique to Spanish in an early and easier way. So set that DVD player to Spanish, and then get a little bit of better use out of it.

Those would be to me, the best things that I would recommend. I would pay super close attention and trust your instincts if you know something’s wrong, don’t let somebody tell you that it’s not wrong. Every mother I talked to said “Oh I knew something was wrong way back when but I couldn’t get anybody to pay attention.” It happened to me with my youngest child and I’ve seen it happen. “Well if you really feel that way, wait and see.” What for what? Vesuvius to go off? Trust your instincts about that and don’t feel – when I tell parents all those things to do, just kind of the way mothers were back in Mayberry you know?

C: Go outside and come in at dinner.

D: They say I feel so mean when I do that. Please don’t feel mean.

C: Going outside is not a punishment.

D: No. And eating a peach instead of an ice cream bar is not a punishment. Those are good things. So don’t let the social pressure make you feel like the mean mom. Realize that you can be proactive and just because what your model is for your family doesn’t match up with 99% of our society doesn’t mean you’re wrong. A great quote is “Baloney repeated a million times is still baloney.”

It is good to be a little more proactive. And I think honesty Carrie, I think that things are shifting back that way. I think people are getting – are starting to see, you know what? We got off track. And so I hope that a lot of mothers will start kind of just looking at how they’re doing things and saying, you know that doesn’t make sense with how people really are. How are people really?

Babies ought to be moving all around. Babies have been eating dirt for centuries. Maybe that speck is not going to kill them.

So those are the things I recommend. And really just wholesome things, and from reading your website it sounds like a lot of those things go on at your house.
photo credit: subewl

C: Well Donna thank you so much for joining us and I encourage our listeners to go to your site. And browse your articles and see what you have to offer. If they have a child that they feel is having some difficulties, and even if they don’t.

D: If they feel like they just want to make sure they’re staying on track. Hard to know if you’re staying on track if you don’t know where the track is. I never charge anybody for a phone call.

I’m always happy to talk with folks. The kinds of mothers who call me are the best people on the planet earth and why would I turn away a chance to talk with someone like that? Well thank you so much! I’ve now signed up on your blog and I enjoy following your crew as they go along. It’s a fun adventure to watch. It’s fun when you can appreciate the wonder of good development.

C: Thank you again Donna.

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photo credit: dougalug

Dr. Magwood is a Chiropractor, and he is talking about the benefits of chiropractic care during pregnancy, and for babies and children. Did you know that your baby can get a check up from a chiropractor in the moments after birth?

Dr. Magwood is also sharing the key stages of development where pediatric chiropractic check-ups are most important.

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Helen is sharing eco-friendly back to school tips. Instead of shopping until you drop, there are creative ways to get the supplies you need. For example, Helen suggests hosting a Swap Meet with other parents.

She also talks about taking inventory of what you already own and reusing things you have. Can you spruce up your scissors with a little foil? What about reusing pencil shavings?

Helen mentioned ReusableBags.com on the show as a source of easy to carry reusable bags that fit neatly inside your purse.

Read my review of Eco Friendly Families here and get more details on what the book has to offer for the entire year. Please leave your comments on this show below.

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Kim: Thank you.

C: It’s a wonderful book. As we were chatting before, this is a topic that I feel strongly about. I’m so glad that you and Hilary Cash, with whom you wrote the book, put this information together in one easy volume so that parents can look at the research, and look at the science and the data, and make good choices about video games and their kids.

K: Absolutely. Parents want to make the best choices for their children, and they want their babies to grow up to be everything. The smartest, the best, really well rounded. Hilary and I are certainly concerned that video games are hurting our children’s development rather than helping them.

C: That’s definitely something that we want to hone in on and talk about. You are a licensed mental health counselor.

In your work, as you talk with parents and with young people, what have you found to be some of the concerns that are very legitimate that parents have with video games?

K: We initially see children that come in because of power struggles, where parents are seeing more anger with their children. Typically, that’s around age six, right as their entering the school system for many parents. We see kids coming with anger problems, and not being able to interact with their peers without some of the behaviors we see in a toddler. With the hitting, the kicking, the biting, not having the social skills to start Kindergarten.

As we started exploring this, we noticed that many of those kids were spending a lot of time with computers and hand held games, nintendos and playstations in their hands. They weren’t getting the social interaction that children need at that age. That was the first entry point, where we noticed young children having problems.

photo credit: subewl

C: Is it mostly an issue that video games are replacing the time that would be spent in social interaction, or is there something else at play?

K: I think there are several things at play. One is that kids are missing out on social interaction, which is so important for them to be well rounded and be able to get by in the world and interact with their piers.

The other is that we are having some concerns about brain development of young children, when they’re playing the games.

There was a recent study out of the University of Washington, here, with Dr. Christakis, who showed that children who played the baby Einstein game had a deficit in their language skills, that verbally they don’t even have the vocabulary of kids who don’t play video games.

So we’re seeing effects on brain development. We’re also really curious to see what comes out of research in the future, because we see the surge in attention deficit disorder being diagnosed in young children at the same time that the gaming has become so popular. We’re really concerned about the wiring of the brain.

C: Something that you touched on in the book, speaking of ADD, parents are confused as to why a child who can’t sit still and focus on their studies can sit and play video games for hours on end. It seems to hold their attention. Can you explain what’s going on there?

K: It seems like a good thing to parents, because their child can actually sit and focus. They can sit and focus, but it’s just about the way the brain is stimulated with the images on the screen. You can use images like this in biofeedback to help children with attention deficit disorder slow down and become mindful of how to slow down, and be present in the world and listen to other people. But it’s almost like you put it on overdrive by over stimulating them on the computer because they don’t learn anything for it. Their brains are going fast when they’re on the computer playing games.

So while they look like they’re sitting still and they’re focused, their brains are going very fast. So it’s just a natural extension for their Attention Deficit Disorder. It gives it an avenue that’s appropriate, where they don’t get in trouble. But they’re going very fast in their heads when they’re playing these games. When that ball’s bouncing around on the screen, or whatever they’re trying to do, there’s a computer game and they’re trying to control it, they’re going very quickly, even though physically their body’s sitting still.

C: Hearing you explain that, a parent might think, “How is that a bad thing”?

One thing that I hear from parents is that “Computers are a part of our society, they’re part of our culture, and the earlier we start teaching them about these computers and skills, the better…”. People will look at a very young child who knows how to move a mouse around, and to them that’s impressive. Is that true? What are your thoughts on that?

K: Specifically for kids with attention deficit disorder, or just in general?

C: Just in general.

K: I think one of the problems is that computers seem to be benign, and we associate lots of good things with them for our children. When they do studies in the school district, what do we want to spend our money on? And they do surveys with parents, and usually technology is number one for parents. They want their children to be able to use computer systems, and they link intelligence to that in their mind, and that’s going to help their child do well in the world. To some extent that’s true. It’s great to be able to use the computer.

However, most schools do teach that, around grade Three, teaching kids how to use the computer. It’s just another skill that kids can learn in life. When we look at studies, especially the work of Dain Healey, that’s done some great writing on this about the impact of technology on our children, we see that it doesn’t make them any more intelligent, and it doesn’t make them better adjusted in the world. I think we all need to take a breath and step back, and look at introducing technology in a way that’s healthy for our kids. Most parents instinctively know when their kids have too much technology.

C: I believe that’s true and I believe that we have a gut reaction, and we aren’t even sure how to verbalize it. That’s why it’s good that we have books like this, because we can read a book like this and look at the research, and be able to have an intelligent argument about our own instinctive feelings. I think many parents feel that way. I know I do.

I was very adamant about the fact that I didn’t want to have a video game system in my home. I had to tustle a little bit with the man who’s now my ex husband. I went back and forth with him about it. I felt very strongly about it and he respected that.

But it turns out that my oldest son was given a Nintendo DS by his cousin, who’s his best friend. If it had been an adult I would have said we’re not comfortable with this, but because it was a child, I wasn’t comfortable with not accepting the gift. It’s brought an element into my home that I did not want to have. It’s brought pushing boundaries, hiding types of behavior, dishonesty, not respecting the limits.

That is one of the things that I’ve observed over and over in households, that the children can’t seem to respect the limits. They can’t seem to turn it off. That bothers me. What’s going on with a child that makes it so difficult for them to accept limits and boundaries around gaming?

K: That’s the part that Hilary and I would talk about as an addiction. As just that little tinge of the addictive behavior starting to show. We can see it in our kids, the look in their eyes when they’ve been gaming, or when they’ve been playing the game and then they look at you. They’re so irritable. . “Five more minutes, five more minutes.” They’re so irritable in their face and their eyes. You think “This can’t be healthy for my child.”

That’s where I am so important that we do set in those boundaries. What’s going on with them is just what the game manufacturers want to happen. The games are designed to be addictive. They pride themselves on what they call the sticky factor.

These games have all the things that addictive systems have. The intermittent reinforcement and fun things in there to keep us playing, and tuned in. They stimulate our brains, and the pleasure centers of the brain. Our kids are just responding the way they should respond, and it’s up to us as parents to do that limit setting, even though it’s so hard and challenging for us.

C: It’s interesting. I have heard parents express that they would be loath to take away the video game or the television set, because they use it as a punishing tool, they use it as a discipline tool. That’s kind of sad, but it’s an honest statement.

K: It is. I think I right in the book that taking away the Game Boy is just a new punishment. “If you’re good, you can have your Game Boy. If you’re not, we’ll take it away.”

You just said something else that’s really interesting, which is the disagreement on this issue between husbands and wives. I see that all the time. Many husbands, not to generalize, but many are very accepting of gaming in the home, and there are a lot of power struggles that go on between husbands and wives as to what’s an appropriate limit for my children. Women have that push back from their husband while they’re getting the push back from their children. It really puts you in a bind.

C: To me that’s easily explained. I think men are much more likely to become addicted to video games themselves. So they need to justify their own usage of games. They couldn’t very well set limits with their children when they have difficulty setting limits with themselves. To me, that’s what that’s all about. I’m pretty sure the research backs that up.

K: It does, and also the way we communicate, with women tending to be more verbal in the home. Gaming fits that model for boys and men where they can be non verbal and they can tune out. That isn’t helpful for us moms.

C: You made the statement that video games are designed to be addictive. It almost makes me think of credit card companies that want us to stay in debt, the way that they market, the way that they treat customers; it’s pretty obvious that their goal is to keep you in debt.

That’s kind of insidious, but it makes sense. How are you going to sell your product if it’s not effective, if it doesn’t make people want to continue to consume it and by more and more games, etc? I think that as parents we can’t have a Pollyanna attitude, we need to wake up and realize…

K: Yes. They collect information. The gaming manufacturers have a rating system, and they collect information like the Neilson ratings do for television shows, and they look for the stickiness factor in their games.

They’re keeping research and statistics on us, what keeps us playing, and a lot of the games for older kids that are online have subscription fees associated with them, so parents are paying $15 or $20 a month for their children to play “Lord Of The rings online”, or some of these online games It’s a big moneymaking industry, and I just hope that parents will look at that and be aware, make the choices for their children. We don’t think that games are bad, we just think that parents need all the information they can get to make those good choices.

C: Right. You also touched on the baby Einstein and the Brainy Baby games. At least one study has shown that these are not good for our babies. That’s something I’ve written about quite a bit on my blog, and it just seems totally counter intuitive to me that sitting a baby in front of a screen can be educational at all. Tell us more about that, the research around that. People are just convinced that these baby computers, the lap wear that you can purchase for young infants, that it somehow beneficial for their brains.

K: It is convincing in many ways, because we so want to believe that we can do a lot to influence our child’s intelligence when they’re little. When they’re that tiny we want to do everything we can to be good parents, and sacrifice, and put all our money towards all of these games, and all of the things that can help our children. Just like that instinct you mention, it seems counterintuitive that putting your children in front of the screen would help them develop their brains. That’s what we’re finding is true.

We’re getting more and more research. If parents are interested in learning more about the research out of the University of Washington, it’s been well publicized, they can Google a Time Magazine article. It’s called “Baby Einstein Not So Smart At All.”

Our DR. *Christakis* at the University of Washington to learn more about what we’re doing there and what we’re learning. We’re just finding that the kids are spending too much time in front of the screen. By the time they’re two years old, 90% of babies and toddlers are spending two to three hours a day in front of the screen. 40%of them are regular viewers of DVDs. We want to take charge as parents and try to limit that and be aware of the impact.

C: Yes. One of the things is that modern parents are so busy. Most of us are working to earn a living, in addition to caring for our children. It’s a double edged sword, because we’re tired and stressed, so sometimes we just need a bit of a break, or a bit of relief, and it’s so easy to allow electronics to entertain our children, so it really does require more work and more effort on our part to be an unplugged parent.

K: It does, but a little bit is okay. As children get older, a little bit of screen time is okay. When I say screen time I include computer and television. I know we all need a break, and sometimes that’s the difference of a day being good or bad, is if you get that extra 30 minutes to catch your breath. I understand that.

We shouldn’t disillusion ourselves about it. We should be aware that when we are taking that break, we’re maybe not doing something great for our child, but we’re doing something that’s okay.

I don’t want the parents to think “Wow, I’ get to take this break, and my child gets to become a smarter individual.” That’s really not what we’re finding.

We’re not always going to do the best things for our child in each moment, we’re just trying to be good enough parents. I just think if we look at the game time, or the TV time, or the DVD time as really entertainment for our kids, we’ll keep it in better perspective.

C: That’s a great point, just viewing it as entertainment. Entertainment has its place, and no parent would want their child to have a completely boring experience, but entertainment has a place. It doesn’t have the primary place, it shouldn’t overtake more important things like family time, reading and education. That’s a great way of putting it. It’s the dessert at the end of a meal.

K: It is. We all need a break, and we all need some fun. A lot of the kids we see in our counseling practices, Hilary and I, feel that entertainment is just something they feel entitled to, they feel entitled to spend six or seven hours a day just sitting and playing a game. They’re very angry if they’re not allowed to do that. It’s getting that balance and being aware of the effect that the games have for our kids.

C: We’ve talked a lot about some of the effects on the brain, but what about our kids’ actual physical health? The first thing that springs to mind obviously, is the same issue with a lot of television viewing, that it’s a sedentary activity. But are we seeing any other health repercussions from children spending a lot of time with gaming?

K: It’s going to be interesting in the future, they’re doing the research now. It’s going to be interesting to see more and more about development of our eyes, we’re noticing some differences now. Research is focusing now of coordination and balance and depth perception for children. We see an effect on sleep for kids who game a lot. It absolutely interferes with their sleep cycle.

The vision thing, it’s going to be interesting to see what we find about that. So much time spent in front of the screen, that the American Optometric Association is doing some research right now. They’ve identified what they call a Computer Vision Syndrome, where vision related problems are happening for kids, because they’re spending so much time in front of a screen. There seem to be more than just eye strain. Lots of headaches and blurred vision.

C: That’s so interesting. Because last night, I went out with a group of friends to see the new Batman movie, and whenever I see a movie like that, that has a lot of action happening really fast, I always have a headache after.

Just listening to you say that about vision issues, it makes me think what if a child is spending that two hours a day watching a video game? It would have the same effect, I would imagine. Lots of fast moving action. It’s coming at you so fast, you don’t have time to figure it out. You’re like “Huh?” You’re asking the person next to you “What just happened?” It’s so fast.

Video games are the same, so if the child is spending that equivalent amount of time in video games every day, it has to have some kind of effect on their vision and triggering headaches. It makes total sense.

K: It does. We can let our children know about that, to be aware of eye strain. Even if it’s just that one hour of screen time that they’re getting, for young kids, look away from the screen from time to time, take some breaks, every 20 minutes or so get up and walk away from it and take a break, so that you’re not just sitting sustained for one hour.

You did talk about obesity, and I think that’s the number one issue. If you look at physical health associated with extensive gaming for kids. It’s the obesity rate, and the instance of diabetes for children now. You can play the Wii, but it’s so much better to get outside and kick an actual ball around. That’s the biggest challenge right now for our kids.

C: It is. And it’s a sad situation that we live in a world in which parents are afraid to send their children outside. It really is sad. It is a legitimate concern, especially in some areas. Not everyone lives in an area where they can just allow their children the freedom to roam around. It’s a sad state of affairs in the world, because it’s effecting our children’s health and their behavior.

I’ve had a conversation/argument before with people that are close to me that don’t seem to understand the importance of that. They say “Watching TV, etc, seems to calm the children down.” But I always say “The problem is that the moment you turn it off, all of that energy comes bursting out and they literally start bouncing off the walls, picking fights with each oother, jumping on the sofa.

But if they’re outside, all of that energy is going to be used up. They’re going to eat better, sleep better, not have all that nervous energy to pick on each other so much.

K: I agree 100%. It’s interesting, some of the reasons why we want our kids indoors and not outdoors, and there’s safety issues. But I’m finding that in some of the most affluent neighborhoods, they’re gated, they look really safe and they don’t have crime rates even reported in some of these really affluent neighborhoods. There are parents that can have the luxury of being home during the day with their kids, and they can watch each other’s kids, those are the neighborhoods where parents are having their kids play indoors.

I don’t know if it’s so much that we’re afraid to let our kids outside right now, it’s just that it’s so much more convenient and easy for us, maybe, to know where they are, and not have to deal with the dynamics of being out in the world.

photo credit: jakesmome

C: Yeah, maybe that’s true. There again, the bottom line is that as parents we have to take charge, be the leaders of our family, and set an example. It wouldn’t kill us to get outside and play, and get some more exercise. I know with me, I like to go outside and have a walk every day for exercise. I kind of have been leaving it up to my children as to whether they join me or not, but lately I’ve been not giving them the option.

They love to play outside anyway, and I can let them roam around, but I’ve been noticing that my seven year old and five year old have a difficult time keeping up with me when we walk, and that concerns me. Neither one of them has health problems, but it concerns me that they seem to get winded so easily. I’ve been making them go out with me and get a little bit more exercise for the sake of it.

K: Or just go at their pace a little bit more until they’re ready for yours. Kids love paying games like “I Spy” when they’re walking, or a little treasure hunt, or collecting leaves. It’s just so important to them to get out there in the world and interact with other kids. I think that lends itself to a higher level of intelligence later in life than knowing how to work a computer.

C: Absolutely. That’s right. Kim, thank you so much for joining us. This is such an important and timely topic. I really appreciate your book, and all that you and Hilary have put together for parents to empower us and know what we’re exposing our children to, so we can make better choices. Thank you so much.

K: You’re welcome, Carrie. I just want to add for parents, we do have a web site up that has an assessment tool for parents, so they can go there and check off some boxes. They can see if their children really do have a problem or not. That’s at www.videogamesandyourkids.com.

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Kim McDaniel along with her co-author Hilarie Cash present the available research on video games and their effects on your child’s health, brain development, and social skills.

Many parents have a “gut feeling” that too much time spent gaming is bad for their kids but don’t know exactly why. This book is a resource that gives parents more confidence to set limits around their child’s screen time and offers help to assess whether a child (or a parent!) is addicted to gaming.

You can read a transcript of this interview here: Video Games and Your Kids

Read my review of the book Video Games and Your Kids

Recommended Resource:

Times Up Kidz (free 30 day trial, save 5% by using CLAUTH discount code if you buy it)

I downloaded this software program that helps parents set boundaries for their kid’s computer time. As the creator of the software, Justin says: “The best part is that the computer is immune from pleas for “just a few more minutes.” It is more disciplined about enforcing the limits than most parents.”

I’ll write a longer review of the product later, but thought I would mention it for now since it’s so on topic for this week’s program!

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Heather and Connie believe that baby food shouldn’t have to be boring! So, they set out to create fresh, tasty organic baby food that will please your little one’s palate.

They offer local delivery and nationwide shipping, as well as a referral program and gift certificates.

Visit their site at Jack’s Harvest to see what flavors they’re offering!

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She is talking about how some moms are choosing to encapsulate and ingest their placentas. Jodi is sharing the benefits of this practice, including an easier transition into new motherhood, less postpartum depression, increased milk supply and a general improved sense of wellbeing during the postnatal period.

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Her site is at LivHealthy.tv and her video podcast, Vitamin Junkeys, is on the topic of breastfeeding this week.

Jennifer is chatting with us about her show and other projects she has for moms who want to be naturally healthy, as well as sharing her own journey to alternative medicine and how she dealt with candida and food allergies.

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He is co-author of The ABCs of Fruits and Vegetables and Beyond, designed to introduce children to fresh produce in a variety of kid-friendly ways.

“My plan is to have kids’ first words – their ‘ABCs’ – to be ‘B is for banana’ and ‘T is for tomato,’ instead of ‘ball’ and ‘truck.’ As children progress, I introduce these foods in new contexts – including jokes, recipes, geography, further online and story options, and more – in order to develop an easy-going relationship with these foods.”

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The guide includes a shopping list, recipes, the ebook itself, and a few other awesome goodies.

If you’re pregnant or nursing I urge you to get this book! If you prefer to read a transcription of this interview, go here: Fit and Healthy Pregnancy Guide

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Carrie: I am extremely impressed with all of this that you offer as part of the Fit and Healthy Pregnancy Guide.

It’s the best advice I’ve ever read for pregnant women in terms of nutrition.

Laura: Thank you. It was fun to do and I believe every word. It’s something I did for myself and feel passionate about for all those babies in the future.

Carrie: I’m proud of you guys for sharing an unpopular message when it comes to nutrition. Your background is as a dietician. What made you want to write this guide? It is very different from anything else a mom can find on the bookstore shelves.

Laura: It was rather disappointing through my teaching and what I learned being mainstream – to become a dietician and wanting more and figuring it out myself, that there’s so much more truth out there. The more I learned the more I knew nutrition impacts fetal development. It’s nowhere. You have to look for it, to piece it together, which was really frustrating considering how important this is.

Carrie: Let’s talk a bit more about your nutrition philosophy and what you recommend to pregnant moms in the book. Share with us a little more about that.

L: The main thing I love to start out with is that what you think is healthy is usually not. Where I grab people the most is fats.

The kind of fat – saturated fat and cholesterol, and how vital they are for cellular development and new baby growth.

And we always think of those foods – not to eat them, they’re bad for us. And they’re key! More homemade foods and food preparation a little bit different. As far as soaking foods, really going after locally grown foods, pasture fed meats, and raw dairy – that’s a very unpopular or controversial choice. Some of those are what I discuss and key points.

C: It’s funny because just yesterday I wrote a pretty lengthy post on my blog about raw milk. And my readers know that I feel really strongly about Weston A Price, I think he was so smart. I talk a lot about native nutrition, what native people ate and how what we eat today is so far from real food.

L: It is, as I drive around and look at these food places, these fast food places, I don’t even see it as food. It’s no different from me picking up a car tire and trying to eat that.

C: I’m sure you’ve seen some of the video clips that have gone around on the internet or maybe you saw Super Size Me. Super Size Me he had a burger and fries that were like 3 months old. I saw a video just the other day of a woman who saved a 4 year old Happy Meal! It’s out of this world.

What I was going to mention about the news that I read yesterday on a very popular parenting blog – on an AOL website, ParentDish. Last year there was a case of a vegan baby who died, she as a newborn infant, and she had been raised on a vegan diet, and yesterday there as another girl: She’s 12 years old, from Scotland, and her parents may face abuse charges because she was brought into the Doctor, and he said she has the bones of an 80 year old woman. She has rickets, several broken bones, and her bones are just falling apart and they feel it’s because she’s been on a vegan diet since birth. And I think – I’m going to predict that we’re going to see more and more case like this since veganism is becoming so much more popular – the trendy thing to do

L: The “green” thing…..

C: Yes. We’re going to see more of these cases of children who – and it may not show up right away – but over the years we’re going to see major health issues because of this. And it’s really sad because people think they’re doing the right thing for their health and for the environment.

L: I agree. What we’re seeing now is a product of what has been happening. The fast food and the non food style of eating with children, we’re seeing it with them now. The pendulum is swinging the extreme opposite of what deemed the ultimate healthy – being vegan, vegetarian. And it’s so wrong – it’s a myth.

It brings me to the point in researching for this book, why -  

if vegetarianism and veganism is the ultimate in healthy – why is it that only key ingredients for fetal nutrients, for fetal development are found in only animal products?

There is a divine design there, and I can’t argue with that, none of us can. That’s beyond us. That’s mother nature there. So that’s what my key point, if that truly is THE diet, the healthiest diet, and that’s what research is skewed to show, why is it that A and D are predominantly found – in their most absorbable form – in animal products?

C: That’s a key point – most absorbable. Because vegetarians and vegans like to make the argument that you can get all the nutrients from plants.

L: how much do you have to eat of it and absorb of it?

C: And I don’t think any of us would want to eat a truckful of spinach!

L: Going back to Weston Price as you mentioned, he never found a completely vegetarian culture. They sought out animal foods and made them sacred. That’s where politics is involved.

C: A nurse, a labor and delivery nurse left a comment on this blog about the vegan child – she said that she’s noticed in her practice that mothers that are vegan have a harder time in childbirth because their pelvic bones are – can’t remember exactly what she said but it was specifically about vegan women having trouble birthing because of something bad happening with their pelvic bones.

L: That’s an interesting point because as I followed my F and H Pregnancy Book guidelines, I had a 9 pound 2 ounce baby – an easy delivery. It was very easy. As easy as childbirth can be! My hips moved just fine.

C: Let’s talk about raw milk. That’s one that specifically pregnant women are warned not to drink raw milk.

L: And raw anything.

C: Right. You mention why pasteurization came about in the first place and why it’s not really needed with modern dairy practices.

L: I find it interesting as I talk to friends that have no clue about raw milk. They don’t have an understanding of why we even do it. The reason was because of convenience. The animals were not in a clean environment, the cows, dairy cows were not in a clean environment, they weren’t fed good food.

We know if we do that to ourselves, we’re not in good shape. So the product they were giving – milk – was low quality. And therefore making us sick. From the way they were fed and the way that they were milked in a dirty environment.

Well that’s a given – why don’t you clean up the environment? Why continue to let that go on and then pasteurize? The milk lasts longer, let’s do this. I think it’s just fascinating that we don’t know that, it’s not an assumed truth in the general population. We’ve been told something so long, like a commercial, that we think it’s fact. It’s not. It just came about because of bad practices.

C: I didn’t know this until I read your book, but we now see ultra pasteurized milk because pasteurization is not working anymore.

L: We have to keep up with those pathogens. They can modify themselves much quicker. Like antibiotics – they were used too much and now we have resistant germs out there so we have to raise the ante so to speak. It’s come across as a much more clean product as far as marketing. But the fact is it’s because it doesn’t work.

C: And it does have a lot to do with marketing and money and dollars just like anything. I went and made a milk run yesterday and I travel 30 minutes one way to get my milk. And these people – it’s a labor of love for them. They’re not millionaires or anything. But they’re obviously healthy. And I just love being able to look out in this huge green pasture with these beautiful cows, they’re so happy and they’re not in confinement at all other than a few minutes a day when they’re being milked. It’s a great feeling to know where your food comes from and to know that everything is clean, If these people are drinking it themselves, they have a vested interest in the product being very healthy and safe.

L: Right, they’re not playing Russian Roulette which is what it’s always referred to. I feel that way as well, I spend a half hour on the road, but I feel good about that – that I can see where my food is coming from, and to give that to my family – to know what’s in there. It’s mind boggling – like why can’t I go to the store and get that?
C: I’m sure you’re a subscriber to the Wise Traditions magazine? I was talking about this the other day that

in Europe, sales of raw milk is going up and up. In Italy for instance you can get raw milk from vending machines

L: Oh yeah I did see that!

C: It’s popular to have them in the schools, to get fresh cold raw milk – where we would have a Coke machine in the school, they have raw milk vending machines!

L: That is inspiring and hopeful. Maybe it will get easier. I think I’ve heard that here, that at a conference with the demand for raw milk even here in the US has gone up. Which is probably why there’s more pressure against it. It always goes back to money. It’s a shame. That hasn’t gotten us very far, it’s gotten us – what 60% of the population is overweight? The soaring rates of diabetes and gestational diabetes – I see women all the time that are overweight and gaining too much but not eating anything of nutrient value. It’s because it’s all cheap.

C: Your book makes it easy because it includes several extra bonuses. You have grocery lists, healthy recipes, and this is great because when you’re pregnant and tired and if you have other kids,

L: Tell me what to eat!

C: Exactly! I can’t wait to try the coconut pudding recipe, I love coconut so much.

L: Oh me too. I kept that in mind – I had to do it, and I was working and pregnant. I didn’t have any other children at the time but keeping up with the house and selling a house and things like that, it had to be easy breezy and very efficient. So I really kept that in mind with the meal plans and just spelled it out, every meal. It’s a no brainer, you don’t have to think about it, just pick it up and go to the store.

C: I also though this was interesting, this other ebook that you include with the product, and it mentions EFT. I have been wanting to have an EFT expert on my show for ages and I can’t find one! It’s absolutely perfect for a pregnant woman – no side effects and it doesn’t cost anything.

I love EFT but I have the hardest time remembering to use it hen I need it. It’s cool to do with children too and they really like it. Once with my 7 year old I did an EFT session and afterwards – the next day – he came to me and said, “mommy do that think where you’re touching my face”..

C: Do you have any final things you want to say about your product or philosophy?

L: It’s been an amazing journey. I learned what most of us think is healthy through more mainstream – becoming a dietician, and it just didn’t feel right in my gut. And learning so much from Weston Price and Nourishing Traditions. And to find out that it’s the complete opposite of what we’re told. And it’s important to question, especially when you’re pregnant and growing a brand new body and what you put in your body affects what kind of body they’re going to have.
When you look around at our children – lots of learning disabilities and other issues, obesity or diabetes, it’s important to question and really look into another way.

The way we have been doing it is just not working. There’s so much out there about saturated fat and cholesterol and how vital it is. I did all the work for you, read all the stuff, and put it into how to’s for everyday living.

I hope people do check out FitAndHealthyPregnancy.com

C: I would say to a woman who is a little…

L: hesitant? I was that way!

C: yes hesitant, to try it out for a week and see how you feel, look at the difference in how you feel. Because when we’re pregnant we tend to have a little low blood sugar, being tired, heartburn and things like that, and so many of the traditional foods are so good for that… eating the cultured veggies is wonderful for stomach trouble.

For me, all my life I’ve had issues with dairy products. I would have severe stomach pains and other issues – but when I’m drinking raw milk it’s a NON issue. I can drink 3 or 4 cups of it a day and have no stomach problems at all.

L: It’s not the dairy but how it was prepared…

C: Right, it was the pasteurization that was the issue, it was indigestible. So try it for a week and just how you feel. And you’re going to feel so much better and it motivates you to continue.

L: People look at it and say it’s so much work but it’s extra work to carry around extra pounds and being unhealthy and no energy. Put in a little time and you’ll feel a lot better in your everyday living. And an easier delivery and a child that’s a little easier.

C: Absolutely, I believe that. Children behave better when they’re eating plenty of protein and fat. And high quality foods, they are calmer and happier they sleep better…

L: I agree. Fat is good for you, fat is healthy. And not the fat they think is good – butter is good!

C: yes. Isn’t it interesting how toddlers go through a phase where you can’t keep them out of the butter dish? From the time they’re walking until they’re 18 months or 2, all my children went through this. They’ll grab the stick of butter and you’ll see little teeth marks. Their bodies are telling them something that they need that, it’s essential for their brain and their nervous system.

Thank you Laura.

Get the  FitAndHealthyPregnancy Guide

More Information about Raw Milk:
The Raw Truth About Milk

Nourishing Traditions: The Cookbook that Challenges Politically Correct Nutrition and the Diet Dictocrats

More on fats:
The Great Cholesterol Con: The Truth About What Really Causes Heart Disease and How to Avoid It

Eat Fat, Lose Fat: The Healthy Alternative to Trans Fats

Nourishing Traditions: The Cookbook that Challenges Politically Correct Nutrition and the Diet Dictocrats

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As moms we all want to teach our kids principles like tolerance and not judging people based on their appearance, but sometimes we’re not sure how to broach these topics.

Jill’s books are an easy way to open up discussion with our kids. They’re based on lumberjack lore about a creature called a hodag who has a ferocious appearance but whose personality turns out to be a surprise.

Visit Jill’s site to learn more about the hodag and see the fun stuff she has for kids. Jill also shares some great info about self publishing for those who are interested in getting their book published.

Mentioned on the show: Ready Made, the do it yourself and recycling magazine

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April is a Licensed Massage Therapist, a DONA-certified Doula, and is currently finishing a Masters in Midwifery.

She is also president and co-founder of Dar a Luz Network, a non-profit organization dedicated to providing knowledge and support for women during their pregnancies, births, and early motherhood.

Dar a Luz offers evidence-based information on a broad range of pregnancy, birthing and family care topics, support through our monthly meetings, and helping women feel confident in their ability to birth their babies.

And the winner of the free KIWI magazine subscription is:

Commenter #6, Angela. Angela please shoot me an email with your mailing address so I can get you all set up

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