Many Churches, Seminaries, and Christian Organizations include on their websites a statement of faith where they typically layout the what they consider to be non-negotiable truths that they expect their members, adherents, and associates to abide by. This practice goes back to the Apostles Creed which states:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of the saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

As time went on, statements of faith began to include other doctrines that were necessary to differentiate one Church from another in terms of the core beliefs of Christianity.

For example, The Roman Catholic Church adopted many erroneous beliefs including infant baptism, justification by works, the creation of a specially empowered clergy, the worship of images and prayers to the dead. Therefore, non-Catholic Churches might affirm believer’s baptism, the authority and inspiration of the Bible, the nature of man, the requirements of salvation, and an affirmation of the second coming of Christ among other things. Deviation from these core doctrines typically would place a person outside of what is regarded as Christian orthodoxy by those adhering to these various statements of faith, some would go so far as calling it heresy to disagree.

Upholding Biblical doctrine is vitally important and statements of faith are a necessary component of upholding Bible truth. Here’s the problem. It is one thing to modify a statement of faith in response to false teaching. For example, theological liberalism has been infecting churches for well over 100 years and in response you see churches affirming things like Biblical inerrancy. However, something like Biblical inerrancy is affirmed by the Apostle Paul when he says, “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;” 2 Tim 3:16. Now we’re seeing affirmations of pretribulationism included in statements of faith. Not simply an affirmation of the Lord’s return or that there will be a rapture/resurrection, but insisting that Christians are exempt from the great tribulation in the absence of any Biblical or historical justification that predates the early 19th century.

This is dangerous for 2 reasons. First, it gives believers a false sense of security that they will never have to face the Antichrist and refuse the mark of the Beast. Some teachers like John MacArthur have gone so far as to say that a person can take the mark of the beast and not receive damnation as a result in direct contradiction to scripture.

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. “And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. Rev 14:9-12

The second problem with this is that it causes unnecessary division. There are many believers who based on scriptural and historical precedent do not accept pretribulationism. Yet elevating this fringe albeit popular doctrine only serves to divide the body of Christ by regarding as unorthodox a belief that Christians will have to face the Antichrist at some point. Even though this belief has been demonstrated to have a Biblical and historical foundation to the very earliest Christian writings.

Examples of Pretribulational Statements of Faith

Calvary Chapel Association

CHRIST’S SECOND COMING
We believe in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, which is His personal, visible return to Earth and the establishment of His millennial kingdom, in the resurrection of the body, the final judgment and eternal blessing of the righteous and endless separation of the wicked (Matthew 16:27; Acts 1:11; Revelation 19:11-16, 20:11-15). We believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church where all believers will meet the Lord in the air and be taken out of this world prior to the Tribulation that will come upon the earth (Isaiah 26:20; Matthew 24:29-31; Luke 21:36; Romans 1:18, 5:9; I Thessalonians 1:10, 4:13-16, 5:9; II Peter 2:7-9; Revelation 3:10, 5:7-10, 7:13-14).

Assemblies of God

the RAPTURE of the CHURCH
A comparison of passages of Scripture relating to the Second Coming shows that some speak of a visible event seen by all mankind and involving the judgment of sinners.Others describe a coming known only to believers and resulting in their deliverance from earth.

The latter is referred to among evangelicals as the Rapture. This word is not in the English Bible, but has been used so widely that one of the definitions of “rapture” in Webster’s Third New International Dictionary Unabridged is: “Christ’s raising up of His true church and its members to a realm above the earth where the whole company will enjoy celestial bliss with its Lord.” The word raptured could well be used to translate the expression “caught up” of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. Jesus said His coming will result in one individual being taken from a location while another is left. This indicates a sudden removal of believers from the earth with unbelievers left to face tribulation (Matthew 24:36-42).

Grace Christian University

The Return of Christ
– The pre-tribulation rapture of the members of the Body of Christ.
(I Corinthians 15:51-53; Philippians 3:20-21; I Thessalonians 4:13-18; Titus 2:13-14)
– After a seven-year tribulation period, the personal, premillennial return of Christ to reign on earth.
(Jeremiah 30:7; Daniel 9:20-27; Zechariah 14:4, 9; Matthew 24:15-41; Revelation 19:11-16; 20:1-4)

Billy Grahm Evangelistic Organization

What is the Rapture?
There are many Christians who believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ will be in two phases. First, He will come for believers, both living and dead, in the “rapture” (read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). In this view, the rapture—which is the transformation and catching up of all Christians, dead or alive, to meet Christ in the air—will be secret, for it will be unknown to the world of unbelievers at the time of its happening.

The effect of this removal, in the absence of multitudes of people, will, of course, be evident on earth. Then, second, after a period of seven years of tribulation on earth, Christ will return to the earth with His church, the saints who were raptured (Matthew 24:30, 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 1 Peter 1:13, Revelation 1:7). He will be victorious over His enemies and will reign on the earth for 1,000 years (the millennium) with His saints, the church.

The Master’s Seminary (John MacArthur)

The Rapture of the Church
We teach the personal, bodily return of our Lord Jesus Christ before the seven-year tribulation (1 Thessalonians 4:16; Titus 2:13) to translate His church from this earth (John 14:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:11) and, between this event and His glorious return with His saints, to reward believers according to their works (1 Corinthians 3:11-15; 2 Corinthians 5:10).

Liberty University

We affirm that the return of Christ for all believers is imminent. It will be followed by seven years of great tribulation, and then the coming of Christ to establish His earthly kingdom for a thousand years. The unsaved will then be raised and judged according to their works and separated forever from God in hell. The saved, having been raised, will live forever in heaven in fellowship with God.

Numerous other Baptist and nondenominational churches also include pretribulationism as a core doctrine. This will lead to more error and alienation from those who would otherwise be their ally in the faith.

The first portion I am going to read from is the Aramaic section of Daniel. When you see it is in Aramaic instead of in the Hebrew portion, it means that it is not only specific to the Jews; it means that it applies to the Jews and to the other nations and to the other peoples.

Daniel 3:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, the height of which was sixty cubits and its width six cubits; he set it up on the plain of Dura in the province of Babylon.

The Significance of 666

Let me begin right away—in Hebrew if I were to count to six, achat, shtayim, shalosh, arba’, chamesh, shesh, in Aramaic, shesh. Now in Hebrew, if I was to say “sixty,” it is not shesh or six, but shishim, sixties, sixes; two or more sixes is shishim, the way you say sixty in Hebrew is two sixes, shishim. In Aramaic, it would be almost the same, shetem. Look at it again. “An image of gold, the height of which was sixty cubits and its width sixty cubits.” In other words, it is the number of the beast. It is one of the places where 666 occurs in the Bible but you have to understand the original languages to understand how it worked out to the number of the beast, but it is one of the places.

The number of the beast occurs many places in scripture. We have a recording called “The Ships of Tarshish” where we explain it but before you go looking for the Roman numeral equivalent of Henry Kissinger’s name or something, look where else that number occurs in scripture. Look what is in the Bible before you look outside the Bible if you want to understand Revelation 13. Every place that number occurs in scripture is important and it occurs many places. It is the number of the weight and dimensions of Goliath’s armor. Goliath is a type of the Antichrist. The number occurs many places in scripture and it occurs a number of times with Solomon when he backslides but here it occurs in Nebuchadnezzar’s image.

Hence, Daniel begins speaking about something eschatological; he is speaking for his own time but he is speaking for events of the Last Days.

Daniel 3:2 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king sent word to assemble the satraps, the prefects and the governors, the counselors, the treasurers, the judges, the magistrates and all the rulers of the provinces to come to the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

This prefigures the abomination of desolation. It is a picture of ha Shiqutz ha Meshomem, the Abomination of Desolation. It teaches something about antichrist to come.

Daniel 3:3-7 Then the satraps, the prefects and the governors, the counselors, the treasurers, the judges, the magistrates and all the rulers of the provinces were assembled for the dedication of the image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up; and they stood before the image that Nebuchadnezzar had set up. Then the herald loudly proclaimed: “To you the command is given, O peoples, nations and men of every language, that at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, bagpipe, and all kinds of music, you are to fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king has set up. “But whoever does not fall down and worship shall immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire.” Therefore at that time, when all the peoples heard the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, bagpipe, and all kinds of music, all the peoples, nations and men of every language fell down and worshiped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.

Here we actually have some Greek terms for these instruments. Now again, this is the picture of the Antichrist who is to come and Antichrist, of course, will in some way mimic the incarnation of Jesus. Hence, we read of Satan in Isaiah 14:10-11: “You have become like us. Your pomp and the music of your harps have been brought down to Sheol.”

He has his own version of worship music, but let’s continue. If you do not bow down, it is a capital sentence. This kind of happened in the early church with emperor worship. The believers would not worship the Roman emperors. The imperial Romans did not care what religion you had as long as you acknowledged the emperor; the believers did not and that is why they were killed. In Ephesus, along the promenade that led into the market, the Agora in Ephesus, you can still walk on it, there was a gate and over the gate it said “Caesar, Son of God.” Caesare filio dei. In other words, to get into the market to buy or sell you had to acknowledge that Caesar was the son of God. If you did not do it, you could not buy or sell. This is a major picture of what is going to transpire with Antichrist. Of course, believers who did not do it, they tied them to posts on either side of the promenade and they used them as human torches, street lamps to illuminate the streets. They were burned alive rather than bow the knee to the emperor. Well, same idea, you either worship him or pay the price.

The Agora in Ephesus

Daniel 3:8-11 For this reason at that time certain Chaldeans came forward and brought charges against the Jews. They responded and said to Nebuchadnezzar the king: “O king, live forever! [Notice how they ingratiate themselves] “You yourself, O king, have made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe, and all kinds of music, is to fall down and worship the golden image. “But whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire.

The Hebrew word, not the Aramaic word but the Hebrew word for worship, the infinitive, is lahish da havod. It means the same as to prostrate, to bow down, to genuflect, same word, to bow down before as an act of worship. No matter what anybody tries to tell you or how they justify it, if you see people, for instance, in Roman Catholicism or in the Eastern Orthodox Church bowing down before a graven image or an icon, it is an act of idolatry, it is an act of worship in the original Ten Commandments. That is why the Roman Catholic Church from its catechisms deleted the second commandment and split the tenth commandment into two. They had to get that out of there because their religion, like the Eastern Orthodox religion is based on icon veneration, where they believe the icon has a metaphysical property and it was a window into the spiritual realm. Well, in Eastern Orthodoxy this is called “Theosis”, they believe God became one with man so man could be one with God, but the channel for achieving that is through the icon, through the image. While Roman Catholicism has a different interpretation, both will indeed bow down before a graven image. In the original scriptures, however, it is an act of worship. They can call it veneration or dulia or something like this but the Word of God calls it an act of worship. Then it continues:

Daniel 3:11-12 But whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire. “There are certain [notice, certain] Jews whom you have appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon, namely Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. These men, O king, have disregarded you; they do not serve your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up.” Then Nebuchadnezzar in rage and anger gave orders to bring Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego; then these men were brought before the king.

Notice first of all that they had positions of social privilege, of some financially viable position, even a privileged position in the society. They were court bureaucrats. They rose through the higher ranks of society, in terms of their status and in terms of their income. They were quite comfortable; they did quite well and they greatly assimilated in the popular culture. In fact, their names are not their original Hebrew names; they had Gentile names. If you were in Israel today and you found an Israeli, his name would be Baruch bar Yosef, or Benyamin ben Yacov. If you went to Minneapolis his name would be Robert Horowitz. Those names came from central Europe. The language was Yiddish, a dialect of German, well, it was different. Well, they fitted well into the mainstream of society. But there will always be an anti-Semite or somebody raising up to tell a Jew, “You are a Jew.” Well, there are two kinds of people who are called God’s Chosen, Jews and born-again believers. Abraham has two kinds of descendants: The descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had the anthropological descendants and the theological descendants. The anthropological descendants are descendants by birth; the theological descendants are descendants by second birth, but they are all children of Abraham. The world hates them. It goes back to Genesis Chapter 3: “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” Always remember there is a hypostatic relationship between anti-Semitism and persecution of the true Church going back to Genesis 3. Who did Imperial Rome persecute the most? Jews and born-again Christians. The Roman authorities persecuted the Jews notoriously. If you were to read Josephus, the wars of the Jews, the Romans became vehemently anti-Semitic, particularly under Titus and again under Hadrian. The Jews had a tough time under the Roman authorities. The Romans, even when Jesus was a baby, had crucified thousands of Jews. They crucified thousands of Jews in the party of the zachin, the Zealots. The Jews did not have a good time under the Romans and neither did Christians. Well, let’s move ahead. In the Inquisitions, who did the Roman Catholic Church persecute the most? Jews and Bible-believing Christians. Before the Iron Curtain came down, who did the Soviets persecute the most? Jews and Bible-believing Christians. Who does Islam hate the most? Jews and Bible-believing Christians. What two nations do Moslems hate the most? Israel and America because it has the most Christians in the developed world at this time in history. That is the way it is. This all goes back to Genesis, chapter 3. They will always find you and point you out, no matter how high you get in society. You may be a government bureaucrat, you may be a civil servant, you may be a politician, you may be a successful business person or a successful professional person, we are called to be in the world but not of it. No matter where they are, no matter what nation they dwell in, a Jew will always be a Jew and a believer will always be a believer. We can be in it, but we will never be fully of it. The world will simply not accept us because we are heirs to a better world, a different world. “The meek shall inherit the earth.” Their time is running out on this planet. The faithful Church will have it for a thousand years. Don’t expect the world to like you. Even when believers have it good for a while sooner or later they will come against you. The only exceptions will be when you have a lot of believers in a society. Remember, the freedom and affluence, but certainly the freedom believers have had in the Protestant democracies is a historical anomaly. It is less than 400 years old. Most saved Christians in most countries, throughout most of church history have been persecuted. The freedom we have in America and in other Protestant democracies is a historical anomaly, it has not been the usual case. And now, of course that we are turning away from the biblical principles that gave us this freedom, that bequeathed us this liberty, our freedom is quickly disappearing. Jesus said we will be hated by all nations for his namesake and, of course, at the same time hatred of the true Church increases in the Last Days, so will anti-Semitism. This has a future meaning.

There are certain Jews who will not do it. In other words, certain ones would not but others did. It is the same with Christians. There are certain Christians who will not go down the Ecumenical Road with Chuck Colson. There are certain Christians who will not subscribe to the “Purpose Driven Lie”. There are certain Christians who will stand up and call the Emergent Church idolatry. There are certain ones who will not go into the interfaith, not even a deception. Interfaith is not simply a deception, interfaith is a highway to Babylon. You get into bed with the Pope, he is in bed with the Dali Llama. This is going to happen again. Ultimately it will set the stage for Antichrist who will come in the character of Nebuchadnezzar among others.

Daniel 3:12 “They do not serve our Gods. These men O king, have disrespected you, they don’t serve our gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.

The king is really angry.

Daniel 3:14 Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up?”

In California they had a program in a school where the policy of the school was to force children, Christian children, at least nominally Christian, to dress up in Moslem costumes and to take Islamic names and celebrate Ramadan. Parents have to go to court to win the right not to have their children do this. They tried to make it compulsory, compulsory multi-faith education, compulsory pan-sexual education, compulsory! If you don’t do it, you are socially disruptive. “Don’t you believe in a multi-faith, multi-cultural society?” If you don’t accept the legitimacy and validity of other gods, if you don’t worship together, you are divisive. Don’t say you are a Christian. If you were a Christian you would love the Hindus, you would love the Moslems and if you love them, you would not tell them that their Mohammed is not the truth. If you loved Mormons, you would not tell them that Joseph Smith is not the Prophet. You are not loving.” That is what they are going to say. That is what they are saying already. “There were certain Jews….” In the last days there will be certain Christians. Bring them up here, we will find out what is happening.

Daniel 3:15-18 “Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe, and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well. But if you will not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?” Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. “If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. “But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.”

“Yes, we realize that we have positions of privilege, education, status in the society, even affluence. With respect, we understood what you said and we understand what you are saying now. For the record, we wish to make clear, we believe with perfect faith our God may providentially intervene; indeed, he can do so. Whether He does or not is His sovereign choice. Even if He does not, he remains our God.” Certain Jews said that. In the Last Days, certain Christians will say that. The others, they will follow the Ecumenical, interfaith agenda. They will accept President Bush’s invitation to celebrate Ramadan at the White House. They will accept President Obama’s invitation to the Gay and Lesbian Pride Day Picnic on the White House lawn. They will go see the Pope and call him the Holy Father. They will crowd into Robert Schuller’s church to hear the Grand Mufti of Damascus when Robert Schuller stands up and said he wouldn’t mind if his grandchildren became Moslem. They would not mind when Bill Hybels has a Moslem preaching in his church, Willow Creek, after September 11th. They will go along with this stuff, certain ones, certain ones will not, the others will.

History Does Not Repeat Itself – It Rhymes

They had positions of affluence, privilege, status, “We are not going to risk that for the sake of our beliefs, we will just go along with it.” The Sanhedrin were accorded legal authority by the Imperial Roman authorities. They were mandated juridical, religious and civil authority. The Sanhedrin were not just religious law, they were legal law. They could arrest people, imprison people, flog people, and pass criminal sentences. What they could not do was carry out capital sentences; that is the one thing they could not do. That is why Pilate said, “See to it yourself, it is your law.” When the apostles resisted the Sanhedrin, they were resisting the civil, as well as religious authority. There was no distinction historically or biblically. They resisted the religious authority. They resisted the legal authority. They went against the law. I know a lady who is now with the Lord, she was a missionary to the Bantu tribe in Angola most of her Christian life. Her name was Loki Nussenbaum, a German Jew. The Nazis murdered her father and her mother, the Nazis murdered her two little sisters and her brother. She and one brother escaped to Switzerland as children and they were taken in by born-again believers who led them to Christ in Switzerland and she got saved. Later she went to Bible college and off to the mission field in Angola, but as a young girl of 14, after seeing her who family murdered by the Nazis, (remember, in the name of Christ they were murdered by the Nazis, they said they were a Christian movement) she was told by a so-called Christian pastor in Germany that “Hitler is God’s minister; the government is God’s authority, go back and submit to the authorities or you are not a believer. Go to Auschwitz, little Jew girl, go to the oven, be a good Christian, go let the Nazis murder you.” She was actually told that. When the civil authorities tell you one thing and the Word of God tells you another, you have to make a choice. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego made the right choice. Some Christians will make the right choice, others will not. “Oh, we have to obey the law.” Yeah, you have to obey the law when it does not contradict God’s law.

Daniel 3:19 Then Nebuchadnezzar was filled with wrath, and his facial expression was altered toward Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego.

Initially he was saying, “Now let’s work this out, it is a big misunderstanding. Stop by the White House for a few beers, we will just talk it over and get the whole thing wrapped up.” Once he found out they meant business, that they were going to stand on their faith, it was a different story.

Daniel 3:19-22 He answered by giving orders to heat the furnace seven times more than it was usually heated. And he commanded certain valiant warriors who were in his army to tie up Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, in order to cast them into the furnace of blazing fire. Then these men were tied up in their trousers, their coats, their caps and their other clothes, and were cast into the midst of the furnace of blazing fire. For this reason, because the king’s command was urgent and the furnace had been made extremely hot, the flame of the fire slew those men who carried up Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego.

Notice in the providential hand of God, God judged their persecutors. “I will bless them that bless thee and curse them that curse thee.” Nobody has ever touched the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, be it the anthropological or the theological and escape the wrath of God. Any nation or empire that has ever persecuted the Jews or that has ever persecuted the true Church has come under the judgment of God, no exceptions. I have no doubt that when the Waldensians were wiped out in Europe, long before the Reformation, it was called the Black Death. Nearly 50 percent of Europe’s population was wiped out. I personally am convinced it was a judgment. Nobody has ever touched the true Church, or touched the Jews, remember, the same ones who persecuted the Jews persecuted the Church. The Jews were rounded up and put into ghettos, shtetls, with a wall around it. Any Jew climbing over the wall was machine-gunned. Hence, there would be a wall built around Berlin, the capital of the Reich. Any German climbing over that wall was machine-gunned. Not until Hess died in Spandau prison in Berlin did one brick of that wall came down. Once the last Nazi responsible for the Holocaust and the blitz was dead, that wall came down a few weeks later. Nobody gets away with persecuting God’s people. You touch the true Church, you touch the Jews, you touch the apple of God’s eye. You make the Almighty your enemy. He will come after you.

Long before the Zionist movement saw Jews coming from Russia in large numbers, after Lenin died and Stalin came to power, he killed Trotsky and he killed Venuviev and he began kicking the Jews out of the party so the Jewish Bolsheviks came to Israel to make kibbutz’s, long before that happened, there were born-again believers in England, led by the Earl of Shaftesbury and William Wilberforce, who lobbied the British government to pass the Balfour Declaration. My children were born in Israel, I live in England. I am proud of the fact that God used believers in England to give Zionism that land initially. But once the British revolted to placate the Arabs, what happened? Jews were sent to ovens instead of to Israel and then even after the war, when people knew what happened, the British were still putting them in camps. Well, if Jews burned, so did London, so did Liverpool, so did Coventry. The Empire collapsed, Britannia no longer rules the waves. Spain was the number one world power, it ruled the Spanish main until it began the Inquisition. Then along came Francis Drake and sunk the Armada, bye bye Spain. It does not matter what nation it was, the Soviets, the Germans, the Spanish, the British, nobody has ever turned against Israel and not come under God’s judgment. Nobody has ever persecuted the true Church and not come under God’s judgment. I tremble for America. They are going after homeschoolers, they are going after believers, they are accusing us of hate crimes because we will not agree with the same-sex agenda and so forth. And now, as we speak, the American government is betraying Israel to Islam, Hillary, Obama, and Bush was no better. We have two oil gulfs in the world, one is the Persian Gulf the other is the Gulf of Mexico. Without a peace treaty, the Bush administration pressured Israel to leave Gaza. There was more to it than that but Bush and Rice pressured them to leave without any guarantee of peace. The next day Hamas began shooting rockets into Israel. There is no land for peace. What happened? You have to placate the Persian Gulf oil, so the next day the Gulf of Mexico oil came under God’s judgment. Thirty percent of America’s refining capacity was wiped out in Hurricane Katrina, now Americans were being forced out of their homes in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama. That was God’s judgment brought on this nation because of Bush, the Saudi pawn. I remember his father saying “Oh, the Saudi’s are our friends.” They allow the Saudi’s to finance the construction of Mosques and Islamic institutions all over America, but you cannot build one church in Saudi Arabia. You cannot bring a Bible into Saudi Arabia. Guess what happens in Saudi Arabia if a Moslem becomes a Christian. Somebody who kills my brethren in Christ for their faith may be a friend of Bush but he is no friend of mine. These wicked men bring God’s judgment. You persecute the Church, you persecute the Jews, you make God your enemy, no exceptions. Believe it, don’t believe it, God does not care, it is going to happen. The scripture has never been wrong and history bears it out. Now let’s look.

The King was angry: “Make it seven times hotter, turn up the heat.” They go in tied up but the first ones to be judged were the people that threw them in. May God’s judgment come on those who persecute the Church and those who persecute the Jews, unless they repent. God gave Corrie ten Boom the grace to forgive the Nazis. They murdered her family for protecting Jews. It is better they repent, but if they do not, the judgment of God is certain, it came on them first.

Daniel 3:23-28 But these three men, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, fell into the midst of the furnace of blazing fire still tied up. Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astounded [they fell into the midst of the furnace still tied up] and stood up in haste; he responded and said to his high officials, “Was it not three men we cast bound into the midst of the fire?” They answered and said to the king, “Certainly, O king.” He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!” Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the door of the furnace of blazing fire; he responded and said, “Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, come out, you servants of the Most High God, and come here!” Then Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego came out of the midst of the fire. And the satraps, the prefects, the governors and the king’s high officials gathered around and saw in regard to these men that the fire had no effect on the bodies of these men nor was the hair of their head singed, nor were their trousers damaged, nor had the smell of fire even come upon them. Nebuchadnezzar responded and said, “Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, who has sent His angel and delivered His servants who put their trust in Him, violating the king’s command, and yielded up their bodies so as not to serve or worship any god except their own God.

Notice, they went against the civil authorities as the apostles did. It was both religious and civil.

Daniel 3:29-30 “Therefore, I make a decree that any people, nation or tongue that speaks anything offensive against the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego shall be torn limb from limb and their houses reduced to a rubbish heap, inasmuch as there is no other god who is able to deliver in this way.” Then the king caused Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego to prosper in the province of Babylon.

Notice first of all, they went into the furnace of affliction bound, they came out loosed. The king did not untie them, the flames did. When God allows his people to be persecuted, he has a purpose in allowing it; they may go in bound, they came out unshackled. The angel here is, I am quite convinced, the one in Judaism called the Metatron, Ha Melech Adonai, the definite article, The Angel of the Lord, it is a Christophany, an Old Testament manifestation, enfleshment of Jesus. I cannot promise you will not go into the furnace of affliction. Those who stand fast for their faith in these Last Days may certainly face it. In fact, we will all face it to some degree. I cannot promise you we will not. Do not listen to the lying Televangelists, “You don’t have to suffer, you are a King’s kid, name it and claim it, blab it and grab it. If you are suffering, you don’t have any faith.” Those men are liars. They have lying spirits. Kenneth Copeland is of the devil, I am positive, that man is of the devil. Those who teach that message are not of God, they are from the devil. I go to places where the Church is persecuted. I go to places where Christians suffer for their faith. I have the privilege of teaching in a kind of Bible college in Indonesia, the most populous Moslem country in the world and there are some very brave young people, late teens, early twenties. I know and they know when they leave that place they are going into the hinterlands of Sumatra, of Borneo, of Java, some of them to be martyred. Three thousand churches were burned to the ground last year in Indonesia alone. Nobody says a word. The Indonesian government admits to a 7.5 percent Christian population but it is pushing 25 percent. They killed over 300,000 in East Timor, they killed over 30,000 born-again Christians in the Moluccan Islands. The UN does not say a word. I go there to teach these young people about the Word of God. Those brave young people teach me what the Word of God is about. I have the privilege of teaching them about the Word of God. They teach me what the Word of God is about. I get much more from them than I could ever give them. I have seen the full story. It is not they who lack faith, it is the Church of Laodicea that lacks the real faith. It is the people sending money to con-artist Televangelist who don’t have a biblical faith.

No, I cannot promise there will not be affliction. Jesus said, “You will have tribulation in the world.” Thlipsis, it comes with the turf, it is a guarantee. If you are not getting some kind of opposition, you better make sure you are saved. But in the Last Days, this intensifies. I cannot promise you will not go into the oven. What I can promise is this; Jesus Christ will be in there with you that I can promise you. That I can promise you. You will not be in there alone.

I have known believers who have suffered. I had the blessing, with my wife, to have known Richard and Sabrina Wurmbrand, the Romanian Jews like my wife. My wife could speak to them in Romanian, of course. The testimony he told me, people saved in communist prisons in Romania. I will never forget the story I heard from him. He thought they were going to kill him next because they had killed several people in a holding cell that had 30 or 40 people locked in a small, confined area and they would take them out and kill them, they would not be heard from. They just kept beating this one guy over and over because he was a Christian and there was a scientist, who was not a Christian, he was an atheist, but he was locked up simply because he was not a communist. So Ceausescu put him in prison and they were doing the same thing to him. This guy began to mock this other Christian after he got beat up—“Look at your Jesus, look at your Jesus, why didn’t your Jesus help you, they are doing the same thing to you they do to me, how come your Jesus didn’t help you.” He said, “My Jesus does help me.” “Well, why doesn’t your Jesus get you out of here?” And he said, “You really want me to tell you?” “Yeah, if he loves you so much, why doesn’t he get you out of here?” This believer, who was a simple man, said: “Because he loves you too, and he wants me to tell you about him before it is too late, that is why I am here.” But the scientist continued to mock. Richard Wurmbrand is just watching this. “What does he do, does he talk to you?” “Oh, yes, he talks to me.” “When he talks to you, does he smile?” “Oh, yes, he smiles.” “So, what does he look like?” He said, “He looks like this.” The scientist just fell to the ground and began pounding his fist saying “You’ve seen Jesus Christ, you’ve seen Jesus Christ.” Richard Wurmbrand and this Romanian peasant led him to the Lord before he was killed.

No, I cannot promise there is no furnace of affliction. What I can promise is that if you or I ever face it, God forbid, but believers face it now, that Jesus will be there with us. Go in bound perhaps, come out free, for certain. And when they came out, others saw it and then others believed. Tertullian said, “The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church.” It is in places where Christians are persecuted, like Indonesia, where the churches are growing. Can you imagine a mid-week Bible study in a hall this size, two-thousand people in it for a midweek Bible study on the floor crowded in? Hot, steamy under the equator to hear Jacob Prasch, why? It is the Word of God! They are persecuted. When I was there, the Moslems were threatening to get rid of the building and burn it and everything. The government would not do anything! Crowding in by the thousands for a midweek Bible study. Prayer meeting—“Oh gotta go to the prayer meeting” packed in like you could not believe, that was just midweek. They are being persecuted but those churches are growing. They have got something that those Moslems in Banda Aceh didn’t have. Those Moslems in Banda Aceh saw it was Christians who helped them after the tsunami. Saudi Arabia did not give a sixpence.

Indonesian Church Burning Down

They came out. In these Last Days, we will have Shadrachs, Meshachs, and Abed-negos. We will have those who will stand, others will not. We will have those who will bow the knee, others will not. We will have those who will follow the Interfaith Ecumenical agenda, others will not. We will have those who will follow the New-Age, purpose driven, Emergent lie and others will not. Some Jews, certain Jews…..

But then we see something that happens in Chapter 6. Understand the book of Daniel paints a picture of what the Last Days will be like. With the Assyrian captivity, everybody was afraid of Assyria. They took the Ten Northern Tribes into captivity and everybody was terrified of them. They were the barbarians who made war by siege. Overnight Assyria collapsed, overnight! And then they were looking down the throat of something much worse, Babylon. As Daniel predicted, overnight Babylon goes, there’s Medo-Persia. And, as Daniel predicted, there goes Medo-Persia, here is Greece, and as Daniel predicted again, there goes Greece, here is Rome and Rome must come back, the iron and the clay. As we speak, those same countries in the Roman Empire are reconfederating into a non-democratic Europe. They have a big problem though, trying to make iron stick to clay. If you look at Ireland, it is a Celtic country. If you look at Poland, it is a Slavic country. If you look at Portugal, it is a Latin country. If you look at Austria, it is a Germanic country. What does somebody in Ireland, Austria, Poland and Portugal have in common? Not language, not history, not culture, not cuisine. There is only one thing that have in common. In Nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritús Sancti. They need to reverse the Reformation to bring about an artificial unity in Europe. This is what is happening as we speak. Remember, once the Beast has no further use for the woman, he gets rid of her. It is all a political agenda to bring about Antichrist’s kingdom. But in the middle of all these things that happened in the days of Daniel, a rise and fall of world empires happening very quickly, the Jews were in the middle of it coming back to their land as Jeremiah predicted. The Last Days are the same. My grandparents were born in Britain. If you told my grandparents the sun would set every 24 hours on the British Empire they would have laughed at you but now it does. Britannia no longer rules the waves, bye bye Britain, French Empire gone with it. If you told somebody of my generation that overnight the Soviet Union would have disintegrated it would have seemed impossible if you grew up in the era of the Vietnam War and the Cuban Missile Crisis to say that the Soviet Union would self destruct but it did. Japan was going to be the new economic giant; then they had four recessions in ten years. Now we have a reunited Germany. Oh yes, once again, Deutschland, Deutschland, uber alles the economic dynamo of Europe—they are broke. The rise and fall of world empires and once again the Jews are in the middle of it coming back to their land. If you want to know what is going to happen, look at what did happen, read the book of Daniel. A change happened here, now it was the Persians, no longer the Babylonians, and Daniel had a problem.

Daniel 6:1-4 It seemed good to Darius to appoint 120 satraps over the kingdom, that they should be in charge of the whole kingdom, and over them three commissioners (of whom Daniel was one), [again, he was a big wheel] that these satraps might be accountable to them, and that the king might not suffer loss. Then this Daniel began distinguishing himself among the commissioners and satraps because he possessed an extraordinary spirit, and the king planned to appoint him over the entire kingdom. Then the commissioners and satraps began trying to find a ground of accusation against Daniel in regard to government affairs; but they could find no ground of accusation or evidence of corruption, inasmuch as he was faithful, and no negligence or corruption was to be found in him.

At any time in history, there has been one particular race or nation that has been prolific. At one time it would have been the Greeks: Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Herodotus, Hippocrates, Pythagoras, Euclid, Archimedes, everybody was a Greek. In the Renaissance everybody was Italian: Machiavelli, Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, Dante, they were all Italian. During the age of Empire, everybody was British, Irish or Scottish. Everybody has their hour. When Europe was plunged into the Dark Ages, the Arabs had their Golden Age. Now, seven out of ten Nobel Prizes go to Jewish scientists, medicine, chemistry and physics, seven out of ten. They are resented. “Why should this little nation have so many….” If it were not for Jewish scientists, Hitler would have had the atomic bomb first, that is obvious. We would all be speaking German; we would all be under the Nazis. It is only because of Jewish scientists that America beat them to the punch. The Germans are very good engineers. Hitler’s thinking, “There could only be one master race, one Ubermensch, it is either going to be the Jews or the Aryan,” that was his thinking. He was a Darwinist.

They get resented so people have to accuse them of things, but they could find nothing. And it goes on:

Daniel 6:5-13 Then these men said, “We shall not find any ground of accusation against this Daniel unless we find it against him with regard to the law of his God.” Then these commissioners and satraps came by agreement to the king and spoke to him as follows: “King Darius, live forever! “All the commissioners of the kingdom, the prefects and the satraps, the high officials and the governors have consulted together that the king should establish a statute and enforce an injunction that anyone who makes a petition to any god or man besides you, O king, for thirty days, shall be cast into the lions’ den. “Now, O king, establish the injunction and sign the document so that it may not be changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which may not be revoked.” Therefore King Darius signed the document, that is, the injunction. Now when Daniel knew that the document was signed, he entered his house (now in his roof chamber he had windows open toward Jerusalem); and he continued kneeling on his knees three times a day, praying and giving thanks before his God, as he had been doing previously. Then these men came by agreement and found Daniel making petition and supplication before his God. Then they approached and spoke before the king about the king’s injunction, “Did you not sign an injunction that any man who makes a petition to any god or man besides you, O king, for thirty days, is to be cast into the lions’ den?” The king answered and said, “The statement is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which may not be revoked.” Then they answered and spoke before the king, “Daniel, who is one of the exiles from Judah, pays no attention to you, O king, or to the injunction which you signed, but keeps making his petition three times a day.”

Notice that if there is a choice between believing the civil authorities or believing the Word of God, you believe the Word of God. Notice also that the authorities were both religious and civil, same as in the book of Acts, chapter 4.

Daniel 6:14 Then, as soon as the king heard this statement, he was deeply distressed and set his mind on delivering Daniel; and even until sunset he kept exerting himself to rescue him.

Notice how it works. The politicians seem to be benevolent to God’s people. “Oh, nothing will happen to us, he is a good man, we supported him, we voted for him,” or whatever. But people with the agenda simply want to get a law on the books. That is how it works; they just get the law on the books. It seems innocuous; it could even seem like a good law in some ways. Every time I get on an airplane, my constitutional rights are violated. Search without a warrant, because our government is too corrupt and too owned by oil whores to protect the rights of Americans; therefore, in order to please whoever they have to please, they’ll deprive American citizens of their rights. They don’t want to security profile Moslem passengers; that might offend the Saudi Arabians who own them. “Oh, it is necessary to stop terror. Now we are going to have laws against religious extremism.” We have this in England already. Those same laws ostensibly passed to stop Islam have not stopped radical Islam, those laws are being used against Christians. Just get the law on the books. “Don’t you want to stop hate crime?” Yes, I do. Well, then you get the law on the books, but as soon as you find out that if you say “Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, nobody comes to the father but by him,” “No you’ve blasphemed Islam, you’ve blasphemed Buddhism, you have blasphemed other religions, that’s a hate crime.” “Are you saying homosexuality is wrong? That is a hate crime.” Just get the law on the books. The laws seem innocuous initially but they are not innocuous, they all have an agenda. The king wanted to be benevolent. Darius wanted to be benevolent. Don’t believe it, don’t believe it.

Ronald Regan promised us he was pro-life and the first thing he did was appoint a pro-abortion judge to the Supreme Court. Don’t believe it, it is no different. “Oh, what about Scott Brown in Massachusetts?” He is pro-abortion; he is simply against federal funding for it. “Well, Romney is a Christian.” No, he is a Mormon; he believes Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan. He passed socialized medicine in Massachusetts and Scott Brown voted for it, don’t trust politicians. You see, the Jews were making a mistake, they were trusting the political authorities to look after them to do what was right. We can pray for them but you are a fool to trust any politician. Even if you get one who wants to be benevolent, his hands will be tied by the system, just like Darius was. “Okay, arrest Daniel. That is the law.” Okay, I know these laws were passed to stop radical Islam but they have to be applied against Christians as well, equal justice under the law. “You’ve got people like Rosie O’Donnell comparing born-again Christians to Moslem terrorists and there are people who believe her. Why? Because born-again Christians don’t approve of her lesbianism, therefore you are a terrorist. Do you understand what they have done? They have redefined tolerance. Tolerance used to mean or according to Webster’s or Oxford Dictionary, tolerance means “Even though I don’t agree with you I accept your right to do that or believe that, as long as it does not interfere with the right of anybody else, that is what tolerance means by definition. In practice, it means if you don’t approve of it, you are intolerant; if you don’t approve of homosexuality, if you don’t approve of Islam, if you don’t approve of these things, you are intolerant. Just get the law on the books. That is what happened in the days of Daniel and that is what is going to happen in the Last Days. They will just get a law on the books. Even if you get a benevolent politician his hands will be tied.

Daniel 6:15-17 Then these men came by agreement to the king and said to the king, “Recognize, O king, that it is a law of the Medes and Persians that no injunction or statute which the king establishes may be changed.” Then the king gave orders, and Daniel was brought in and cast into the lions’ den. The king spoke and said to Daniel, “Your God whom you constantly serve will Himself deliver you.” And a stone was brought and laid over the mouth of the den; and the king sealed it with his own signet ring and with the signet rings of his nobles, so that nothing might be changed in regard to Daniel.

Now understand here we are dealing with typology. Daniel is a figure of Christ. When Jesus was put in the tomb for dead, he came out alive but what happened in Matthew 27:66? They put the seal on the stone. Do you understand that he was a type of Christ? Daniel was put in, the imperial seal was put on the stone that covered up the den and then when the stone is taken away, he comes out alive. It is a picture of the resurrection of Christ. All these things are shadows of the New Testament.

Daniel 6:18-24 Then the king went off to his palace and spent the night fasting, and no entertainment was brought before him; and his sleep fled from him. Then the king arose with the dawn, [remember, Jesus rose at dawn?] at the break of day, and went in haste to the lions’ den. And when he had come near the den to Daniel, he cried out with a troubled voice. The king spoke and said to Daniel, “Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you constantly serve, been able to deliver you from the lions?” Then Daniel spoke to the king, “O king, live forever! “My God sent His angel and shut the lions’ mouths, and they have not harmed me, inasmuch as I was found innocent before Him; and also toward you, O king, I have committed no crime.” Then the king was very pleased and gave orders for Daniel to be taken up out of the den. So Daniel was taken up out of the den, and no injury whatever was found on him, because he had trusted in his God. The king then gave orders, and they brought those men who had maliciously accused Daniel, and they cast them, their children, and their wives into the lions’ den; and they had not reached the bottom of the den before the lions overpowered them and crushed all their bones.

God will vindicate his people. He will destroy them if you persecute those who are His.

Daniel 6:25-28 Then Darius the king wrote to all the peoples, nations, and men of every language who were living in all the land …

Remember, whenever you see somebody conquering the whole known world, it is a picture of the Antichrist. Only Christ is to have dominion over all nations and peoples. When you see somebody in the Old Testament ruling over all the nations, tongues and peoples, it is a type of the Antichrist who intends to usurp the unique position of Jesus.

…”May your peace abound! “I make a decree that in all the dominion of my kingdom men are to fear and tremble before the God of Daniel; For He is the living God and enduring forever, And His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed, And His dominion will be forever. “He delivers and rescues and performs signs and wonders in heaven and on earth, who has also delivered Daniel from the power of the lions.” So this Daniel enjoyed success in the reign of Darius and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.

What happened to Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego under the Babylonians would happen to Daniel under the Medo-Persians. “Put him in there to die.” Who closed the lions’ mouths? He came out alive. They may put you in there to die but you will come out alive. You don’t need my guarantee, you have the guarantee of Christ, you will come out alive. Either he will close the mouth of the lions or you will come out with the resurrection power of Christ. One way or another you come out alive and those who persecute you will come out dead. Their death will be the second death. It’s quite a thing. That is the way it was in the days of Daniel. We are going to see a very rapid change politically along the lines we have been seeing that is going to continue, a very rapid series of political changes, meteoric changes and in the middle of all of it you are going to see Israel being a controversy. It happened this weekend. You are going to see more and more laws passed that will be used against Christians, that even benevolent politicians who mean us no harm will not be able to intervene on our behalf, they will be trapped by a corrupt system. You are going to see people with devious motives demanding you be criminalized, the Satraps, the governors, etc., etc. They did it in Daniel 3; they did it in Daniel 6, they will do it in these Last Days. There will be a furnace of affliction. Some of us will go in bound. All of us will come out free. Christ will be in there with us. Others will see it and believe. Many will see and fear and trust in the Lord.

“Do not imagine that you in the king’s palace can escape any more than all the Jews. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father’s house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?” Esther 4:13-14

That is what happened to Shadrach. That is what happened to Meshach. That is what happened to Abed-nego and that is what happened to Daniel. Not many years after that is what would happen to Esther and Mordecai and in these Last Days, it is what is going to happen to us. The furnace of affliction—quite an adventure! We will see the judgment of God against our enemies. Sudden destruction will come upon them. We will see this intervention on behalf of His people. We will see His Lordship. We will see His power and not only will we see it, others will see it, and then they will believe. The world will become hard of heart in the developed world. People are not interested any more. When I was saved it was the Jesus movement, hippies were looking for truth and meaning. That is over now. It is very difficult to see people saved now. It is not that open; there is not a move of God’s Spirit, it is not the same. There are counterfeit revivals and frauds and deceptions in Toronto, Pensacola and Lakeland but there is no real revival, only lies and deceptions. What will make people believe? When they see not three in the furnace of affliction but they see four. They see Shadrach, Meshach, Abed-nego and Jesus. They see us and then they will see Him. That is what it took 400-plus years before Jesus. That is what it is going to take in these Last Days. The book of Daniel is not a past history, the book of Daniel is a future history and even as we speak this evening, the book of Daniel is becoming our history. That is the way it was; that is the way it is … that is the way it is going to be. Praise Jesus.

Astrological Association Between Revelation 12 and the Constellation Virgo

Revelation 12:1-6 reads:

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

The reasoning goes something like this, beginning with the premise that the astrological signs were ordained of God from the beginning of time to herald prophetically significant events of the past present and future. The supposed Biblical support for this comes from Genesis and Job.

Genesis 1:14

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

Job 38:31-33

Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades,
Or loose the cords of Orion?
Can you lead forth a constellation in its season,
And guide the Bear with her satellites?
Do you know the ordinances of the heavens,
Or fix their rule over the earth?

In the Gen 1:14 example, the word “signs” is often assumed by many of these teachers to relate to prophetic signs. However, there is nothing in the context to indicate that these are prophetic signs and there are no other Biblical examples of the stars or constellations having any bearing on the prediction of future events other than for marking the passage of time. The only notable exception to this was the Star of Bethlehem. There are no specific prophecies in the Old Testament predicting that there would either be a star of Bethlehem or that a star would point the way to Messiah. How the Magi were led by this star is a matter of pure conjecture. However, it is most likely that God had somehow spoken to them to follow the star seeing He had directly given them instruction through their dreams to not return to Herod after presenting their gifts to Jesus. ^{Matt 2:12} A more likely interpretation would be that the stars are signs “for” the seasons, days and years. In fact, the conjunction “and” and the preposition “for” do not appear in the original text. Numerous Bible translations render the phrase “…to act as signs for seasons, days, and years…” Those translations include CEV, CSB, HCSB, ISV, MEV, NET, NIV, and others. The idea that these signs were intended to represent some kind of proto-zodiac is not supported by the text.

In the second scriptural citation from Job, there are direct references to the constellations by name and in general. The Hebrew word for constellation is Mazzaroth. The mention of constellations in scripture in and of itself does not validate the idea that the astrological signs represent anything of significance prophetically.

The idea that God put a message in the stars was first postulated by an English woman named Frances Rolleston who published what she described as her life’s work, a book called Mazzaroth: Or, the Constellations in 1862. It was popularized by E. W. Bullinger in his book Witness of the Stars and by Joseph Seiss in his book Gospel in the Stars. Both of these 19th-century authors credited Rolleston as their source of information. This is the source of the idea that the constellation Virgo actually represents Mary as prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 as part of a cosmic proto-gospel written in the stars.

Starting with this false premise, some Bible teachers are looking at Rev 12:1-6 as somehow being fulfilled on Sept 23, 2017. They do this by saying that the woman is the constellation Virgo and the crown of twelve stars is the constellation Leo. The constellation Leo has 9 stars give or take and on the 23rd of September the planets Mercury, Venus, and Mars will be in Leo for a total of 12. The man-child is said to be the planet Jupiter, which according to Roman mythology is the King of the gods. The proponents of this theory claim that such a conjunction has not occurred ever in history. However, one noted astronomer has documented this alignment occurring in 1056, 1293, 1483, and 1827.

Regardless, the only heavenly signs we are given with respect to future predictive prophecy were given by Jesus in the Olivet discourse. And these heavenly signs occur after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:29-31

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.”

Following the interpretive principle of comparing scripture with scripture, we find another instance of this symbology in the book of Genesis. It relates to a dream that Joseph had in chapter 37. The passage in Revelation 12 has nothing to do with the constellation Virgo, it actually is harkening back to Genesis 37.

Biblical Prohibitions Against Astrology and Divination

Isaiah 47:13-15

You are wearied with your many counsels;
Let now the astrologers,
Those who prophesy by the stars,
Those who predict by the new moons,
Stand up and save you from what will come upon you.
Behold, they have become like stubble,
Fire burns them;
They cannot deliver themselves from the power of the flame;
There will be no coal to warm by
Nor a fire to sit before!
So have those become to you with whom you have labored,
Who have trafficked with you from your youth;
Each has wandered in his own way;
There is none to save you.

Astrology is merely one of many forms of divination. Others include numerology, tarot cards, crystal gazing, Ouija boards, etc. Divination is a method of foretelling the future or gaining secret knowledge by occult means. Scripture speaks to this practice as being one of the most detestable things a person can participate in, equating it with rebellion and idolatry. God specifically warns against it. ^{Leviticus 19:26, Deuteronomy 18:9-14, 2 Kings 21:1-6, Jeremiah 10:2}

These false teachers that are coming out saying that September 23, 2017, is a fulfillment of Biblical prophecy will also vehemently deny that they are using astrology, yet they are attempting to foretell the future by the position of stars and planets which is the very definition of astrology. When examining the other things being taught by these modern-day so-called “Biblical” Astrologers, you will find that many of them subscribe to other forms of divination besides astrology. These often include Bible codes (numerology) and Pyramidology. Bullinger was a proponent of so-called Biblical numerology and Seiss was a proponent of Pyramidology. Both of these men were 19th century “Christian” occultists whose work provided the foundation for the astrological claims being made today.

The True Origin of Astrology

Even secular historians are in agreement that our western form of astrology is traceable back to Babylon. The Zodiac as we see it today comes directly from Babylon having been transmitted to the Egyptians, later the Greeks, and finally to the Romans. There are many similarities between the Chinese and Indian versions of astrology suggesting a common origin. Even Meso-American astrology shared zodiacal signs with Babylon. The Mayans had 2 constellations in common with their western counterparts, Scorpio and Gemini. The name of the Mayan version of what we call Scorpio was guess what? A scorpion! It is also no coincidence that the Babylonians, the Egyptians, and the Mayans were all pyramid builders. All three civilizations used numbers, astrology, and their pyramid temples to practice divination. In the book of Revelation, Babylon is mentioned nine times and always as the object of God’s judgment and wrath. The signs of the Zodiac were never intended to convey truth to the believers in the one true God nor to predict end-time events.

Mixing Truth with Error is an Abomination to God

This concept is found throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. Many examples of this can be given, here are a few. In Genesis God gave the example of animal sacrifice as the way cover sin, yet Cain mixed fruit into his sacrificial offering and it was rejected by God. Aaron made a golden calf and said, “This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt.” Yet in the same breath, he said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to the Lord.” Thus mixing Egyptian idolatry with the worship of the true and living God. Ironically the conditions in the camp of Israel in Exodus 32 are very similar to today in that Just as Moses delayed to come down from the mountain, Jesus has delayed His return by 2000 years and in the same way His people are corrupting themselves with the idols of Egypt. King Jeroboam the first King of the divided kingdom of Israel corrupted the worship of the true God by making golden calves in Bethel and Dan repeating the sin of Aaron. This corruption so offended God that Jeroboam’s sin is mentioned no less than 29 times. Jesus warned about false teaching of the Pharisees which was adding to the word of God and elevating their tradition above the word of God. Paul warned that you cannot be justified by the works of the law and at the same time be justified by grace through faith. Mixing the truth of God with a lie is in itself a lie.

Setting Dates for the Rapture and Second Coming

There are many teachers in the past that have falsely predicted either the rapture or the second coming. William Miller predicted the second coming to occur in 1844. His false prediction led to what was called “The Great Disappointment,” which led to many falling away from the faith. This also led to the formation of the Seventh Day Adventist cult. Charles Russell the founder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses also falsely predicted the second coming multiple times. More recently many evangelical Christians inspired by Hal Lindsey, expected the rapture to occur in 1988. This was based on Israel’s rebirth as a nation in 1948. This was arrived at by an incorrect interpretation based on eisegesis of Matt 24:32-34. They said that the “fig tree” is the rebirth of Israel as a nation even though the text does not support this. Then they said the when Jesus said: “this generation” He meant 40 years. Therefore, Israel becomes a nation in 1948 plus 40 years and you end up with 1988. This was a false prediction that was repeated by many. What does the word of God say about this?

Deuteronomy 18:20-22

But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

Jeremiah 23:16-22

Thus says the Lord of hosts,
“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you.
They are leading you into futility;
They speak a vision of their own imagination,
Not from the mouth of the Lord.
They keep saying to those who despise Me,
‘The Lord has said, “You will have peace”’;
And as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart,
They say, ‘Calamity will not come upon you.’
But who has stood in the council of the Lord,
That he should see and hear His word?
Who has given heed to His word and listened?
Behold, the storm of the Lord has gone forth in wrath,
Even a whirling tempest;
It will swirl down on the head of the wicked.
The anger of the Lord will not turn back
Until He has performed and carried out the purposes of His heart;
In the last days you will clearly understand it.
I did not send these prophets,
But they ran.
I did not speak to them,
But they prophesied.
But if they had stood in My council,
Then they would have announced My words to My people,
And would have turned them back from their evil way
And from the evil of their deeds.

God said, “In the last days you will clearly understand it.” If God is not speaking of these false prognosticators of our day then who else is He speaking of?

Pre-tribulationists Breaking Their own Rule of Imminence

There are many pretrib teachers pointing to future dates for the rapture while still maintaining a belief in imminence. This position is logically inconsistent. If a person were to correctly ascertain a future date for the rapture, then from the time the prediction is made until the event itself occurs, imminence no longer applies.

According to Dr. Gerald Stanton, a well-recognized authority and proponent of pre-tribulationism: “(1) While no one knows the time of Christ’s return, He may come at any moment and it is possible that He might come today… (2) The Rapture is signless, and will be unannounced and largely unexpected… (3) No clearly prophesied event must transpire prior to the Rapture, for this might date the time of His coming.” ^[1] I will say at this juncture that I totally disagree with the idea that the rapture is imminent as defined above. However, Dr. Stanton’s definition accurately articulates the majority view among pre-tribulationists. Now let’s define date setting. In this case, I will offer my own definition. The reason being, that many pre-tribulationists add disclaimers when they set dates to insulate themselves from being called out for making false predictions. It typically starts out with a statement like, “I’m not saying the rapture is going to happen on ____ but it might, and here is why…”

One of the most recent examples of this comes from Bible Prophecy Teacher, Doug Woodward, who is also known as “Doomsday Doug.” He is one of those predicting that the rapture is likely to occur on September 23, 2017. The headline of this blog post reads: “THE SEPTEMBER 23 SIGN IN THE HEAVENS – WILL THE RAPTURE HAPPEN THEN?” Granted it is posed as a question but the inference is that it may and it certainly puts in the mind of the reader that they may expect the rapture on September 23, 2017. At this juncture, I’m going to make a prediction. The rapture is not going to happen on that date, and if that date has already passed, then I have already been proven correct.

Who is Predicting the End on September 23?

Here is a list of people you should mark as false prophets especially after September 23, 2017:

• David Meade ^[1]
• Daniel Matson ^[1]
• “Doomsday” Doug Woodward ^{[1] [2] [3]}
• Jimmy Evans ^[1]

There are many others. Please leave comments naming anyone else promoting this false teaching and include a link documenting their propagation of this false prediction so others can be warned.

“None of this debate is fruitful for the ‘Great Commission’………..Pointless…….” -Tick

“I find it so sad that church leaders are back biting over something like the timing of the Rapture. Real believers have enough to contend with in every day life without watching leaders bicker over something like this.” -Colette

“…this rapture stuff is taking people’s eyes off of what they should be on – fulfilling God’s purpose for our lives, which is to spread the gospel of Christ to the whole world…” -Karen

“The great thing about eschatology is time will tell. Whether you are right or wrong is immaterial. This topic is a not essential and really only worthy of the small amount of time devoted to it. Now the good news, Jesus died for sinners of whom I am chief. The substitutionary death of Christ makes us family and as such I wish to encourage you to pursue the calling of God in Jesus. You were made for so much more than this vain disputation.” -Jeff

“Why do you want to waste your precious time arguing about this when there are lost souls all around you to witness to? You aren’t leading them to the Lord with this arguing. Time will tell. We need to be edifying the church!” -Paula

“Pre or post, I’m not in the least concern. I will be a soul winner either way. Do you obey our Lord in going to all the world and preach the Gospel to every person. Think of all the useless energy and time wasted in these sites. How many people will be in heaven because you led them them to Christ. One thing you can’t do in heaven is win Souls.” -Tim

“Does it really matter when?? The fact is that He is coming back!! Stop fighting about it and let’s try to win as many souls as we can before He does come and its too late!!” -Cindy

“I wish the author of this article would put more effort in writing posts about salvation to sinners rather than nitpicking at pre-trib believers.” -Joey

“I think (and more importantly God feels) that the great commission is where our focus should be, not attacking other believers for a belief they hold about the end times. God is more concerned with souls than proving His next coming will or will not happen a certain way.” -Joseph

Sounds pretty serious, right? After all, if if we neglect the gospel for the sake of a pet doctrine, wouldn’t that be sinful? I agree, it could be. But let’s take a little closer look this. For those that think an emphasis on the second coming detracts from the gospel, I will prove that the gospel apart from the second coming is no gospel at all.

Contending For The Faith

When Jude wrote his epistle, his intention was to write about our common salvation. Instead the Spirit of God compelled him to write, “Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.” Jude 1:3

From this we see that Jude and by extension the Holy Spirit are telling us that it is not sufficient for Christians to only focus on the issue of salvation in the proclamation of the gospel. The reason being that Satan seeks to corrupt the message of the gospel through false teachers. If this were not the case, Jude would never have been written. So let’s establish this fact according to God’s word. It is vitally important that we “contend” (to argue for and defend) “the faith.” The doctrines surrounding the second coming are an integral part of the faith  which was once for all handed down to the saints, and is in fact part of the gospel itself.

The Gospel of the Kingdom vs The Gospel of Grace: a False Dichotomy

Pre-tribulationists will often say that it is important to understand the New Testament in a Jewish context. On this point I wholeheartedly agree. As we look to understand the Jewish mindset of the 1st century it is important to understand that the rabbis of the day understood that the Messiah seemed to have two roles based on Old Testament prophecy. Some believed that there would in fact be two Messiahs. One role was as the suffering servant who they referred to as Messiah son of Joseph, and the other as Messiah son of David. It would be the son of David who would rule as the King of Kings subduing the gentile nations under His rule, and it was this manifestation of of Messiah’s appearance for which they longed. This is plainly evidenced in how Jesus was received into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday.

Just as there is only one Messiah, there is only one gospel. This is a very important point, and it is at the heart of the debate when it comes to the timing of the rapture. Most pre-tribulationists will tell you there is more than one gospel. They will say there is the gospel of the kingdom which is for the Jews and the gospel of grace which is for the Church. Saying that there are two or more gospels is not much different than the error of the 1st century Jews. Messiah is not divided and neither is the gospel. Notice I said, “the gospel?” that is the way the term appears in most of the New Testament. The definite article “the” appears before the word gospel in most instances even where other qualifiers like kingdom, Jesus Christ, grace, God, His Son, peace, salvation, or everlasting are not specifically indicated in the text. Such language should make it abundantly clear that there is just one Gospel, that gospel is the gospel of salvation and the gospel of the kingdom. The two are inseparable. Therefore when someone says, “Hey! you should be focusing on the gospel.” My response is, “That’s exactly what I’m doing.” It is good news that He died and rose to pay for our sins, and it is good news that He is coming to establish His kingdom.

The Gospel Includes The Second Coming

Eschatology is and should be part of the evangelistic message. This is what the early Church did. They spread all over the earth proclaiming Christ’s sacrifice for sin and His coming in judgement in flaming fire. It was because of this preaching that Nero was able to blame the Great Fire of Rome on Christians because they were preaching Christ returning in a fiery judgement.

The expectancy of Christ returning in the midst of desperate times has been mistakenly reinterpreted into a false doctrine of immanency with respect to the rapture. The early Christians did not expect an any moment rapture. Instead, they looked to the signs that Jesus gave in the Olivet discourse. Namely that there would be apostasy, tribulation, Antichrist, and cosmic signs preceding His return. In the first and second centuries there was great apostasy and heresy as is well documented, as well as a succession of Caesars that were thought by many to be the Antichrist. Later many believers thought that various Popes were the Antichrist. But all those believers expected to see the things in the Olivet discourse being fulfilled soon, perhaps in their lifetimes. In the context of pre-tribulationism, we are told we are not to expect those things. If the early Christians were really pretrib as the pretrib teachers affirm, they would not have tried to connect their own experiences with the Olivet discourse. But history documents that at many times in history, Christians had believed themselves to be in the tribulation, and thought they knew who the Antichrist was.

This is the reason pretib teachers have tried to compartmentalize the gospel. Because the second coming of Christ is every bit the gospel as forgiveness of sins are. If you have two different gospels, it’s a lot easier to wiggle out of the condemnation that the Apostle Paul lays at the feet of those who distort the gospel.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! Galatians 1:8-9

If we preach a different gospel with respect to the second coming, it is no different than preaching a different gospel with respect to forgiveness of sins. It’s no wonder that Jesus said, “…when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?” Luke 18:8b

I fear that just as the Jews by and large did not recognize Messiah’s first coming, the Church by and large will be unprepared for Messiah’s second coming and the events that immediately precede it. Here is the perseverance of the saints.

The $10,000 Reward

Goodfight Ministries (not myself) offered a $10,000 reward to anyone that can find a single passage in scripture that clearly places the rapture of the Church before the tribulation. So far no one has been able to do that. However, an individual that mistakenly thought that I had offered the $10,000 posted a challenge on my Facebook page, insisting that he had the one passage that proved the rapture occurred before the tribulation and that I should pay him for it. Here is the passage:

And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” Rev 5:6-10

If the reader is unfamiliar with this argument, please read through the passage again and see if this seems like an obvious proof text for pre-tribulationism without a presupposition. Chances are you won’t.

The gist of the argument is this:

• The 24 elders in Rev 5:9 sing a song in which they declare themselves to be redeemed.
• The number 24 in scripture is used of 2 completed groups, levitical priests and musicians, therefore the use of the number 24 indicates a complete Church.
• The 24 elders appear in a heavenly scene before the commencement of judgments.
• Therefore the 24 elders represent the raptured Church and this supposedly settles the debate.

One author named Greg Lauer put it this way:

“The identity of the 24 elders is nothing less than a key that unlocks with stunning, irrefutable clarity the question of whether the Church—the body of Christ—will remain on earth for the duration of the coming seven-year Tribulation, or if the Church will be raptured before it begins.”¹

Let’s see if in fact this settles with “irrefutable clarity” whether or not the Church will be present on the earth during the great tribulation.

Problems With Premises

The 24 Elders Declare Themselves To Be Redeemed

In the 9th & 10th verse of Chapter 5 it reads:

“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.” ^{Emphasis Added}

This verse is taken from the NASB translation of the Bible, and is consistent with most English Bible translations. However in the KJV instead of using the terms them and they, the terms are rendered as us and we. Below is how the same passage reads in the KJV of the Bible.

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

There is definitely a material difference here in translation. There are basically 2 groups of source documents that were used to translate the Bible into English. One is called the Texus Recuptus or Received Text, from which the King James Bible was primarily translated. The other group of documents are known as the Majority Text or Revised Text and are the source of most modern English translations. In my opinion, the Majority Text is more reliable. But rather than shift the debate over to KJV vs non-KJV, the question of whether or not the 24 Elders speak of themselves as redeemed or not still does not address the core question as to whether or not this is a proof text for pre-tribulationism.

John Walvoord former President of Dallas Theological Seminary and unofficially recognized as the Dean of Pre-Tribulationism wrote in his commentary on the Book of Revelation that the identity of the 24 Elders was problematic because of the discrepancies in original documents and in no way did he attempt to equate the 24 Elders with the raptured Church, although he did lean toward them being redeemed men. Instead it was simply a question as to whether they were human or angelic beings.

“…there is difference of opinion as to the identity of the twenty-four elders. In 5:9-10 additional light is cast upon their character. If the text of the Authorized Version is correct, the twenty-four elders in their new song declare that God has redeemed them by His blood out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation and has made them kings and priests. If the twenty-four elders are actually redeemed by the blood of Christ, it is clear that they could not be angels but must be redeemed men. Some ancient versions of Scripture give a different rendering. In keeping with this variation in text, the song herein recorded is translated in the American Standard Version of 1901 as follows:

Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth.

If this latter rendering is the proper one, it leaves undetermined whether the twenty-four elders are men or angels. It records only that they pay tribute to the Lamb, as the One who was slain and who purchased men from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation. Such a song would be worthy of angels as well as redeemed men.

The fact that there is a variation in texts in this passage, however, by no means determines beyond question that the text used by the Authorized Version is incorrect. This is still debatable, although most textual scholars of the twentieth century prefer the revised text. Even if the revised text is accepted, however, though it removes absolute proof of the human origin of the twenty-four elders, it does not constitute specific proof that they are angels. It merely leaves the matter open. In view of the fact that the twenty-four elders are pictured as having crowns of gold and clothed in white raiment, as if they are already a complete people judged and rewarded, the weight of evidence still is in favor of considering them as representatives of the church, the Body of Christ. The alternative suggestion that they are angels, however, is possible.” ²

The problem with the premise in this case is that if the 24 Elders are redeemed, it does not logically follow that they represent the Church raptured before the tribulation. So at this stage there are 2 major problems with this theory. One it is questionable as to whether the 24 elders are or are not redeemed. Second, if we accept that they are, we still have a long way to go in proving that they represent the raptured Church. There is a third problem as well. It is not just the 24 Elders that sing, it is also the 4 living creatures. These 4 living creatures are mentioned by the Prophets as angelic beings in Eze 1:10 and Eze 10:14. It is also obvious contextually throughout the book of Revelation that the 4 living creatures are angelic beings. How then can they be redeemed and sing the same song as the 24 Elders?

The Use of  24 to Signify The Complete Church

This is an extremely weak argument. First of all it is not stated explicitly that this group of Elders represents the raptured Church. Instead we are asked to go back and look for the use of 24 in scripture for a corollary. Those given are representative of the divisions of the levitical priesthood in 1 Chronicles 24, and the musicians.

Many Pre-Tribulationists Believe The Church Is Not Mentioned In Revelation From Chapters 4-19

Many pre-tribulational Bible teachers are emphatic in insisting that the Church is completely absent from Chapters 4-19 of Revelation. If this is indeed the case, then that position militates against using Rev 5:9-10 as a proof text for pre-tribulationism. So what you have here is one group of pre-tribulationists nullifying each-other’s proof texts. John MacArthur however has staked out both positions as being valid which is an obvious contradiction. In one sermon MacArthur stated:

“It is a curiosity and should be noted that from chapter 4 verse 1 on through the remainder of this book, the church is never mentioned. It is not mentioned. There is no mention of the church at all, which seems to fit the fact that the Lord is going to show John things that happen after matters concerning the church. And so, we can assume here that the church is out of the picture. And by assumption, therefore, many would say the Rapture must occur before these things begin to take place.” ³

Then conversely in another sermon he states the following:

“All the beings in the universe break out in praise. Verse 8 says, ‘And when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures,’ that is the cherubim, the four living beings, ‘and the twenty-four elders,’ you remember they represent the redeemed and raptured church, ‘fell down before the Lamb, they fell down in worship.’ This is the moment for which all of heaven and redeemed earth has been waiting. Now as we come in to this song of worship, this time of praise, we begin to notice some marvelous things. And I wish we had time to just literally exhaust all of it but stay with me and we’ll move rapidly and say what time allows us to say.

When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders, again they represent the church so the symbolically they are the raptured church, fell down before the Lamb.” ⁴

You can’t have it both ways. Either the Church is mentioned between Chapters 4-19 or it is not. It is inconsistent to say on one hand that the Church is absent from Chapters 4-19 and then say that the 24 Elders in Chapter 5 represent the raptured Church.

Other Examples Of Pre-Tribulationists With Differing Opinions on The Meaning of Rev 5:9

J Vernon McGee

J Vernon McGee, was a pioneer radio broadcaster, theologian holding a Doctorate in Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary and host of the Thru the Bible Radio Network program. He said the 24 elders represent the Church, including the tribulation saints. He acknowledges that the 4 living creatures sing the song also despite being angelic beings. In his own translation however he relies on the majority text in Rev 5:10 and renders the disputed words as them and they instead of we and us. ⁵

John Darby

In his commentary on the book of Revelation, John Darby, the co-founder of the Plymouth Brethren and father of pre-tribulationism says that the 24 elders are priests. John Darby wrote his own translation of the Bible, and in it he translates the words in Rev 5:10 where the Elders are singing, by using the pronouns them and they rather than us and we. Further in his Revelation commentary he makes no attempt to equate the 24 elders with the Church in any way but appears to consider them to be more angelic in nature however that characterization is debatable.

…When He has taken the book, the living creatures and elders fall down before Him with golden censers full of the prayers of the saints. They are priests here…. I read the passage thus:-“Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed to God, by thy blood, out of every kindred, and hast made them unto our God kings and priests, and they shall reign over the earth.”… The four living creatures, that is, all the exercise of God’s power in creation and providence, join their Amen, and the elders worship God in the excellency of His being. But the living creatures and elders are joined (verse 8) in falling down before the Lamb. I do not think they are meant to be distinguished in the latter part of the verse, but merge in the elders, symbolizing different service but not now two classes…⁶

Clarence Larkin

Clarence Larkin is best know for his hand drawn illustrations of dispensational time-lines and end time events, particularly for the tribulation. In his commentary on the book of Revelation Larkin states the the 24 Elders are the 12 sons of Israel and the 12 Apostles. On the one hand he says they do not represent the Church, but in the same sentence affirms the false idea that this proves the rapture occurs before the tribulation. It should further be pointed out that Larkin also believed that the Great Pyramid in Egypt confirmed his end-time predictions in his book Dispensational Truth, chapter 32 “DISPENSATIONAL TEACHING OF THE GREAT PYRAMID.”⁸ This is the same error that Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses fell into by using the Pyramid to predict Christ’s return.

While the Four and Twenty Elders are representative of the Old and New Testament Saints, they do not, as a whole, represent the Church, for the Church is composed only of New Testament Saints. The Old Testament saints are merely the Friends of the Bridegroom. But the fact that the New Testament Saints, as represented by the Twelve Apostles, are required to make up the 24 representative characters (Elders), is additional evidence that the Rapture of the Church takes place before the Tribulation.⁷

C.I. Scofield

Arguably one of the most effective pre-tribulation teachers in history, CI Scofield published an annotated reference Bible in 1909 and revised it in 1917. His Bible had sold over 2 million copies before the end of WWII.  Since then it has sold millions more. Scofield’s notes influenced many pre-tribulational teachers including Hal Lindsey, Edgar Whisenant, and Tim LaHaye. In his annotated reference Bible, Scofield makes no mention of the significance of the 24 elders anywhere that they appear in the book of Revelation however he always associates the 4 living creatures as being Cherubim referenced in Ezekiel 1:5.

Conclusions:

• It is unclear whether or not the 24 elders are referring to themselves or others textually from the passage.
• Both the 24 Elders and the 4 Living Creatures sing the same song. There is no debate that the 4 Living Creatures are angelic beings which have not been redeemed and are not part of the Church. Therefore the use of them and they fits the context more logically than us and we.
• If  the 24 Elders have in fact themselves been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, it still leaves open the question as to who they are or who the may represent. It does not automatically prove they represent the Church raptured.
• The lack of unanimity among notable pre-tribulationists regarding the identity and significance of the 24 Elders makes using it as a proof text extremely problematic.
• It is a self defeating argument when held up to the other more popular pre-tribulational contention that the Church is not mentioned from chapters 4-19 of Revelation. To hold to both positions is logically inconsistent. However that doesn’t seem to bother John MacAurthur.

If this is the best example that can be made to provide a single passage of scripture that clearly places the rapture before the tribulation, then I think Good Fight Ministries could safely raise their offer from $10,000 to $1,000,000.

Earlier this yearⁱ, arising from the 2015 release of the video documentary “Left Behind or Led Astray?” which chronicled the history and origin of the Pretribulational Rapture Teaching, Pre-Trib Research Center director Dr Thomas Ice, on the Berean Call radio show, on the basis of his own interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3, publicly challenged Pastor Joe Schimmel for the $10,000 offered in the documentary to anyone who could find a biblical text clearly supporting a pretribulational timing for the Rapture event. This challenge initiated an informal debate between Pastor Joe Schimmel of Blessed Hope Chapel and himself concerning the subject of Dr Ice’s contention that the apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers not to a departure from the faith, but a spatial departure into Heaven, namely the Rapture.

Subsequent to this, Dr Ice issued a formal challenge to Pastor Schimmel to formally and publicly debate Pretrib history and origins at the upcoming Pre-Trib Research Center Prophecy Conference in December 2016. Dr Ice had already selected Dr Paul Wilkinson as a debate partner, and Pastor Schimmel chose bible expositor Jacob Prasch, while at the same time issuing a counter challenge that the scriptural basis for the Pretrib Rapture should also be debated as well. After negotiation it was agreed that there should be two debates: one to discuss Pretrib history and origins; and another to deal with the scriptural issues and concerns.

Dr Ice is one of the foremost and most zealous exponents of the Pretribulational Rapture teaching on the prophecy circuit today. He is also Director of the Pre-Trib Research Center, an organisation devoted to defending and promoting the Pretribulational Rapture Teaching, so considering that his debate challenge was issued with such an air of confidence we were somewhat saddened and disappointed to receive a communication from Dr Ice shortly afterward stating the following:

“After prayer and consulting with my board of directors, we have decided to withdraw any debate offer and will not participate in any debates at all. We will deal with these issues in a different way.”

Dr Ice’s withdrawal from the very debate he himself proposed, and indeed his subsequent refusal to enter into any future such thing raises questions, but as pastors, bible expositors and concerned believers we see this refusal as part of an ongoing and ever-growing trend of concerns about the teachings and activities of the Pretribulational Rapture Movement and which are generating ever-increasing alarm, and we present some of these below for prayerful consideration by the wider body of Christ.

The Lord Jesus and the Apostles warned in the most explicit manner of the distress that would come upon the world, particularly during the latter half of the Seventieth Week of Daniel, and what the ramifications of these things would be for His Church.

However, on the basis of a recent teaching, (that even their foremost scholars acknowledge of their own selves they are not able to find clearly taught anywhere in Scripture) pretribulational teachers seem willing to cast the unambiguous and explicit words of Jesus and the Apostles behind their back and instead proclaim that we should “. . . be at peace in the knowledge that the Lord has not destined us to endure any part of the Tribulation.”ⁱⁱ

As concerned believers in the Lord Jesus, in concert with the earliest historical witnesses in direct line from the Apostles, we recognise that these warnings were given as part of the Apostolic deposit of faith to the Church and intended for our instruction, and as a most necessary warning from the Lord Himself to prepare His saints for what is to come. Now, especially in light of the ever darkening prophetic scenario, we must state above all our other concerns, that we believe the Pretribulational Rapture Teaching embodies a clear and present danger to the saints, for it sets aside these warnings as irrelevant for the Church and ultimately it will leave believers completely unprepared to face unprecedented spiritual deception, and a level of persecution not previously encountered in the history of the Church.

In the Olivet Discourse Jesus warns repeatedly of massive spiritual deception being perpetrated against the saints during and around the Tribulation period; a deception that will include miraculous signs and wonders, to deceive even the elect if they allow themselves to be vulnerable. This warning is reiterated also in many other places.ⁱⁱⁱ The Pretribulational Rapture Teaching, by deriding any expectation of the saints possibly being present through the Seventieth Week, leaves its adherents ill-equipped to face a veritable avalanche of sign-, wonder- and miracle-backed spiritual deception and false prophets which will assail believers during that time. Not only so, but leading Pretrib voices, Dr Thomas Ice, Dr Paul Wilkinson,^iv Wayne House and others are even removing the notion that there will even be an end-time apostasy at all by promoting the idea that the word ἀποστασία in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, (“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction . . .”) refers not to a falling away or departing from the faith, but to a departing to heaven.^v 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a clear corollary to Jesus’ teaching in the Olivet Discourse, particularly Matthew 24:10-13. This notion is a serious false teaching, yet it was aired on Berean Call Radio,^vi without any comment or demurring from host T. A. McMahon – either during the broadcast or since – and it is now being promoted by Berean Call in their re-publication of Dr Wilkinson’s book.

The 70th Week is also described as a period where the Dragon will make his war on the saints. No soldier would wish to be sent into a combat zone without any training and with no idea of what to expect, yet this is the position in which the Pretrib Rapture teaching will place untold multitudes of God’s people.

Pretrib Engenders a False Hope

The teaching that the Church will be absent from the 70th Week, against the overwhelming testimony of Scripture, presents the precious flock of God with a false hope, a delusion that discourages the saints from preparing spiritually and mentally now for what may well come upon us, even in our own generation, as we accelerate towards the consummation of this age. We believe that in effect it casts a stumbling block before the saints of God which may cause many to fall when difficulties arise and this lying hope is shattered by 70th week realities. We are deeply concerned that on this basis the Pretribulational Rapture Teaching will actually be a contributory factor in the prophesied “falling away of many” during the 70th week.

Dr Paul Wilkinson, in his presentation “Israel Betrayed” Part Two given at The Berean Call Conference in 2015, complains that non-Pretribulation teaching frightens the flock:

“I just want to bring out. Because the Post-Tribulation belief that Joe Schimmel espouses, Joel Richardson, the Pre-Wrath view that Jacob Prasch espouses, these are heretical views. To teach that the Church is going to go through any part of the Tribulation period is an abominable thing to teach. Because it robs believers of the blessedness of the Blessed Hope. It doesn’t fill believers with joy and expectancy and longing, it fills them with fear, it fills them with a kind of militancy that they have to stand against the Antichrist, they have to face the Mark of the Beast. I have spoken at Churches in England where people have been in fear how they are going to get through the Tribulation, how their children are going to get through the Tribulation. Will they be strong enough to resist the Mark of the Beast when it comes. Praise God the Lord uses many of us to bring freedom and release from that kind of teaching . . .”

Our great concern about this statement is that this kind of “release”, this false hope, is only that of the drunk who uses alcohol to “make it all go away”, but the problems are still there the morning after. The Tribulation is still coming, ready or not. We believe that the only solution for the fear about the days that are coming upon us is not the hallucinogenic of an escapist teaching, but to preach trust in our wonderful Almighty God whose grace is entirely sufficient, whose strength is made perfect in our weakness, to preach a discipleship that counts everything loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ, and that exhorts us to seek God for grace not to love our own lives unto the death, but to forsake all for Him.

While there has been a historical tendency in some groups to make Pretrib Rapturism a test of fellowship or membership and incorporate it into doctrinal statements of colleges, churches and some seminaries, despite the fact that it is not clearly taught in Scripture:^vii now however, we note with alarm that some leading figures in the Pretrib Movement are not only elevating the Pretrib Teaching to become part of the fundamentals of the faith once delivered, but allotting it an even more exalted place:

“. . . for the believer, the doctrine of the Rapture is the most important, most urgent doctrine. And the enemy knows this; Satan knows this, and so his task is to rob the church, rob believers of the blessedness of the blessed hope by getting them distracted, by telling them that ‘No, you’ve got to go through the period of the great tribulation that is to come.’”^viii

Even clearly stated biblical truths can be over emphasised at the expense of the whole counsel of Scripture and this can produce serious error. For example, Christ’s humanity over-emphasised to the extent that His divine nature is occluded or vice versa. However what happens when something that can not be found in Scripture is made a cardinal and most important doctrine? Surely, in the end, this can only lead to error of greater magnitude.

A worrying consequence of this elevation of the “teaching” to fundamental status, is that those who do not adhere to this new fundamental and “most important” doctrine are now labeled heretics and evildoers because they have denied the “new cardinal doctrine of faith.”

“Post-Tribulationism, any form of tribulationism that places the Church in that period of God’s wrath being outpoured on the earth is a terrible heresy in the Church.”^ix

“It is evil . . . to tell anyone that Jesus could not come back today.”^x

Thus those spiritual leaders who try to prepare their flock for what is coming based on what the Scriptures
clearly and unambiguously teach, are now considered pseudo-shepherds.

“. . . any true pastor will feel that divine jealousy for the flock of Christ, the congregation under their care, because they know Jesus could come back at any time. A true pastor will know that . . .”^xi

“. . . you will not hear these

[non Pretrib] men talk about their love for Jesus. You’ll not see the tears fall down their cheeks. They will speak of the Coming of the Lord, very academically and very intellectually, but where’s the heart? Where’s the love? Where’s the longing? It’s not there: and one of the reasons it’s not there is because they’re not pastors; they’ve not been called to take care of the flock; they’ve not been called to help prepare the Bride for the Bridegroom.”^xii

“This promise, however is to the church of Philadelphia: she will be raptured before the Tribulation begins. It seems difficult to understand why some false teachers suggest that the Church must go through the Tribulation in view of this clear-cut^xiii statement of our Lord.”^xiv

We feel concerned and saddened, that from high up in the Pretrib Teaching Movement this kind of personal rancour and ad hominem attack is being utilised and endorsed in order to stifle biblically-based questioning of the Pretribulational Rapture Teaching.

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be anathema.” –Galatians 1:8

A serious concern, one which was raised in “Left Behind or Led Astray,”^xv is that the Pretrib teaching provides a platform for a most serious error which undermines the very Gospel itself.

“The everlasting Gospel (Rev. xiv. 6). This is to be preached to the earthdwellers at the very end of the great tribulation and immediately preceding the judgement of the nations (Mt. xxv. 31 refs.). It is neither the gospel of the kingdom, nor of grace. Though its burden is judgment, not salvation, it is good news to Israel and to those who, during the tribululation have been saved (Rev. vii. 9-14; Lk xxi. 28; Psa. xvi. 11-13; Isa. xxxv. 4- 10).”^xvi

“It [the everlasting Gospel] calls on men to worship God as “CREATOR,” and not as “Saviour” and so it is called in the Revised version-“THE ETERNAL GOSPEL,” the Gospel that has been proclaimed from Eden down by Patriarchs and Prophets, and not an “Everlasting Gospel” in the sense that it saves men for all eternity. Its burden is not “Repent,” or “do this” or “do that,” but–“FEAR GOD, and give GLORY TO HIM; for the HOUR OF HIS JUDGMENT IS COME; and WORSHIP HIM THAT MADE HEAVEN, AND EARTH, AND THE SEA, AND THE FOUNTAINS OF WATERS.” From this we see how important it is to distinguish between the various Gospels, not only as to their message, but the period to which they apply, otherwise there will be confusion and false teaching.”^xvii

Clarence Larkin, in accordance with Scofield, taught that there were multiple Gospels, contrasting this everlasting gospel in Revelation 14:16 with that of the gospel of grace which brings salvation and peace between God and Man. We would maintain that a gospel which does not provide these things is actually no gospel at all. The Bible only knows of one Gospel, though it is often called by different names which reveal the facets of its nature. The Gospel has always been about God’s grace providing a gift of righteousness and ultimately salvation for those who turn to Him in faith. Though not all dispensationalists embrace these multiple and alternative gospels, there are some dispensationalist groups who, on the basis of this very teaching, are advocating a works-based, obedience-to-the-Law gospel that applies during the 70th Week. This is an error so serious that it brings God’s anathema upon it.

“I want to make it clear that we have no intention of being drawn into a debate on this subject. The Lord always vindicates His Word, and those who faithfully preach the truth have nothing to fear . . . I would urge readers to avoid the temptation of taking issue with those who are contending with him. My prayer is that the flock of God, His beautiful flock, will be protected from confusion, fear and doubt, and be at peace in the knowledge that the Lord has not destined us to endure any part of the Tribulation.”^xviii

With the sentiment “the Lord always vindicates His word and those who faithfully preach the truth have nothing to fear,” we could not agree more. Those who are indeed faithfully preaching the truth should not be reluctant but relish the opportunity to publicly air the scriptural basis of their belief, for examination by all in a moderated debate, particularly if the teaching is so important as to warrant the very public charge of “terrible heresy” to its opponents; surely this is something that the accuser should be prepared to present his case for and justify before all, from the Scriptures, or otherwise he must retract it. In like manner, we have the same expectations from Pretrib proponents Dr Ice and Wilkinson, that they would also be zealous to present us with the biblical and linguistic basis for equating the apostasia of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 with the Rapture, and the hermeneutical basis of the Pretrib Rapture with that of the doctrine of the Trinity.

“But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.” –John 3:21

If the Apostle Paul was willing to submit what he called “my gospel” to the critical examination of the Bereans, how much more we who do not claim the same level of inspiration or authority?

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” –2 Timothy 2:15

We believe that the refusal of both Dr Ice and Wilkinson to enter into debate is indicative that the leading champions of the Pretribulational Movement have conceded, even among themselves, that their teaching is biblically indefensible, but they are unwilling to have this brought into the open for all to see.^xix Workmen that are not ashamed of their work in the Gospel and of its biblical foundation should not be ashamed to publicly defend it in a formal debate.

Our concern is that this refusal to debate is indicative of a pattern that as the Pretrib Movement seeks to shore up its teaching and preserve its dwindling subscriber base, not only is it drifting ever farther from sound biblical exposition and hermeneutical principles as it seeks to find a pretext to cling to something for which it has no biblical warrant, but it is now also closing its ears to correction from the Scriptures, which is further exacerbating the situation. Willful adherence to one error, we believe, will open the door ever wider to a number of others. We are saddened and concerned by all of this, because it works against the stability of the Body, our common unity as Pre-millennial believers against a host of deceivers who deny a literal millennium, disparages the place of Israel in God’s purposes, and ultimately against the preparation of the Church for what lies ahead.

Signed (in alphabetical order):
John Haller, Elder, Fellowship Bible Chapel, Columbus Ohio
Douglas Krieger, The Tribulation Network
Elon Moreh, Moriel Israel
Tony Palacio, Good Fight Ministries
James Jacob Prasch, Bible Expositor and Director of Moriel Ministries
Scott Pruitt, No Pretrib
Pastor Joe Schimmel, Senior Pastor of Blessed Hope Chapel, Simi Valley California and Director of Good Fight Ministries

To My Brethren in the Lord:

Joe Schimmel
Jacob Prasch
Joel Richardson
Paul Wilkinson
Tom MacMahon

Dear Brothers,

I am distressed over the direction in which the discourse among you is headed concerning your dispute over the pre-trib/post-trib issue. The Lord has put it upon my heart to address this with you in the hope that His Spirit will awaken in all of you a desire to please Him by adopting an attitude of love toward one another, not just verbally or even in your hearts, but openly and apparent to all.

A divide is developing between adherents to each of your positions, and that does not please our heavenly Father. So I implore you to bear with me as I address some concerns with you.

For those of you who do not know me, I am not a come-lately to this debate. I am 77-years of age, and have known the Lord for over 52 years, having published Media Spotlight: A Biblical Analysis of Religious and Secular Media for almost 39 of those years. I know Tom and Jacob, although not intimately, and I can say that I hold both in very high regard. I also knew Dave Hunt, and, although we have had our disagreements concerning eternal security and eschatology, our ministry has carried his books for sale to our readers for many years, and continues to do so.

I feel qualified to address this dispute because I am not in agreement with either of your sides on the issue of eschatology. After studying end-time prophecy for over 25 years, I came to the conclusion that much (but not all) of what is taught on both sides of the pre-trib/post-trib issue has been arrived at via eisegetical reasoning rather than the clear teaching of the Word of God. At this point I will merely say that I am not a preterist; I know the Lord will return bodily to establish His millennial Kingdom. Nor am I mid-trib, at least according to the erroneous understanding to which most mid-trib proponents hold. So please put your minds at ease about that. Just know that my concern is for the Lord and for the brethren who may be adversely affected by this dispute.

My initial concern was raised when I viewed Paul Wilkinson’s message, Israel Betrayed – Part II. I was somewhat shocked by the harsh language that you, Paul, had used toward the men involved in Left Behind or Led Astray? As you recall, I e-mailed you concerning your accusations of heresy, and your use of the term “abominable” for those who disagree with your pre-trib position.

Your response was kind, but firm that you stand by the term “heresy,” but perhaps the use of “abominable” was over the top.

In view of Paul’s passionate response to Left Behind or Led Astray? I was concerned that perhaps the message in that video was unloving and harsh as well, and deserved such a strong response. So I purchased the video (agonizing over having to not only watch four-and-a-half hours, but take accurate notes, which would add at least twice the time to watching it uninterrupted). I also re-viewed Israel Betrayed, read Paul’s “rebuttal,” and watched the hour-and-three-quarter response by Joe and Jacob to Israel Betrayed.

I’ve done my homework, and now I am asking you to put in much less time to consider what I have to say in this somewhat lengthy letter. I will thank all of you in advance for your kind consideration.

Please know that I have prayed earnestly for the Lord to give me the words that would touch your hearts- words of grace, kindness, gentleness, humility and above all, love. If you detect anything other than these, please let me know. I only ask that you not take hard words and directness of phrase as anything other than these. In any case, please keep in mind the words of the Psalmist: “The wounds of a friend are faithful, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.”

I realize this is a lengthy treatise, so if you think it too long or unworthy of your time, please at least after this section jump to the Conclusion toward the end. If you wish (and I suggest you do), you may at any time read my detailed analysis of the specific points that have exacerbated this dispute. My hope is that you will consider the details because you may not realize or recall everything that has been said.

One point: I do not like the term “rapture.” It is taken from the Latin Vulgate’s raptura. In English the word “rapture” connotes feelings of ecstasy and is subjective. It is rightly ridiculed by those who don’t believe in a literal catching up bodily to meet the Lord in the air. It has nothing to do with being bodily snatched up. Rather, the Greek harpazo should be translated “caught up” or something similar. Even so, to acquiesce to your common usage of the term “rapture,” I will use it here, but with quote marks.

Left Behind or Led Astray?

Concerning Left Behind or Led Astray? I found, generally, that Joe Schimmel’s and Joel Richardson’s tone was pretty subdued. Although, of all the men’s statements, I view the most pejorative was Joe calling Thomas Ice “Tim La Haye’s bulldog.” That was totally unnecessary, and could be construed as unloving. Jacob was much more animated, and some might think him angry. But that’s Jacob; he often comes across that way, but I also know that he has a heart for truth and his ministry is one of love to the brethren. Even so, he said nothing unkind about anyone other than Darby and Irving, although he did indict pre-trib proponents with statements such as

Joel Richardson’s comments were relatively benign. There was nothing in what he said that would cause any consternation.

Joe Schimmel’s statement that if post-tribulationists are wrong they’re in a better position than pretribulationists if they are wrong, is unsound, and I can understand why Paul pointed to that as reflecting uncertainty on the part of Joe. Joe’s explanation in his rebuttal of Paul’s comment doesn’t do anything to lessen the impression that he seems uncertain of his position. It’s really not a valid argument anyway. It would have been better not to state such a thing. This may seem minor, and because I disagree with Joe’s post-trib position in the first place, it shouldn’t really concern me. But again, my concern is for the brethren and for the Lord’s truth. An otherwise excellent exposé of the pre-trib position was weakened by that statement.

Joe’s interview with Colin Le Noury understandably drew Paul’s ire, considering that the portion was omitted where Colin added that the pre-trib position is drawn from a number of Scriptures. This gave good reason to suspect that Colin’s statement was presented out of context. Joe responded by pointing out that he, himself, stated that Colin made that additional statement. But, Joe, inasmuch as you suspected that omitting Colin’s statement on camera could cause a problem, I believe it would have been wise to have included it. Viewers would not necessarily make the connection between your reference to Colin’s added comments and his comment made seemingly out of context. Evidently Paul didn’t make the connection, so it’s virtually certain that many others didn’t as well. Also, according to Paul, Colin tried over a period of time to demand that you not use the segments that included his comments. If it was in your power to acquiesce to Colin’s demand, I believe you should have done so out of love for the brother. I don’t think your presentation would have suffered for lack of his statements. You could have justifiably said in the video that after being interviewed Colin demanded you not use it, then stated what Colin said, including his qualification that there are other Scriptures to support his position.

That said, Paul, so far no one on the pre-trib side of the issue has produced any of the “other” Scriptures that would prove unequivocally the pre-trib position. That is a weakness on the pre-trib side.

Concerning Manuel de Lacunza, the video gives the impression that Lacunza was being deceptive by adopting the name Ephraem

[Pseudo-Ephraem]. It does not take into consideration that Lacunza, being a Jesuit priest, might have been risking his frock, if not his life, by challenging the Roman Catholic amillennial eschatology. It’s understandable that he wouldn’t want his real name attached to the document.

Even so, Lacunza’s teaching isn’t clearly pre-trib. I consider Lacunza’s writing somewhat cryptic and unreliable for proving any connection to a pre-trib secret rapture. In truth, some familiar with his work describe him as technically “futurist post-tribulational.” Lacunza was primarily concerned with dispelling replacement theology, arguing for a restoration of the Jews to their homeland. In the process he addressed the “rapture,” but primarily to dispel postmillennialism. It would have been better to ignore Lacunza and focus on the important point, often made by Joe Schimmel, et al, that there is no scriptural proof for a pretribulational “rapture.”

It is understandable that Paul would be upset that Joe linked Paul’s pre-trib position with Lacunza.

(Joe, you stated that Lacunza wrote in the 19th century, but Lacunza [1731-1801] wrote in the late 18th century [1700s]. Just an aside in case you are challenged on that later in an attempt to discredit your scholarship.)

Also, I don’t believe Joe made a clear connection between Lacunza’s writing and Edward Irving. But he is correct that Irving’s pre-trib teachings preceded Darby, and considering Darby’s early association with Irving, it may reasonably be deduced that Darby learned the pre-trib “rapture” from Irving.

The Roundtable Discussion

One of Paul’s strenuous objections concerned the portrayal of Benjamin Newton with John Darby in the presence of Margaret Macdonald while she was having an ecstatic experience. In the Roundtable Discussion rebuttal to Paul’s message, Jacob took umbrage with Paul, stating that “the film does not say he was there. It doesn’t even state he was present. It just simply states he agreed with Darby that there was something wrong with what this woman was teaching.”

Actually, Paul didn’t say the video said (verbally) that Newton was present, but that the video portrayed Newton present with Darby, which it does. Paul can’t be blamed for pointing that out.

Joe’s explanation of Newton being in the scene with Darby and Macdonald is acceptable, but he should have insisted that the scene be reshot without that extra in there, especially since he suspected that it would cause a problem. He cannot expect viewers to pick up on every nuance about what is said vs. what is portrayed. It is completely understandable that Paul would point out the discrepancy. How was Paul or any of us to know it was an error of casting? Again, Joe’s judgment was lax in allowing the scene to remain as it was after having the discrepancy pointed out to him, as he says in the Roundtable Discussion. There was no need to show anyone with Darby, let alone the same actor who portrayed Newton.

Of more concern is Jacob’s response, continued: “But on that basis-amplifying something the film doesn’t even say-as a basis to discredit us, dishonest and lies, is stupid. He’d be laughed out of any secular court, and out of any serious academic forum.”

Considering Paul’s was an honest response made before hearing Joe’s explanation, I think this was harsh. The word “stupid” even in reference to Paul’s statement, and not Paul himself, is almost as pejorative as Paul’s use of the words “heresy” and “abominable” are in reference to post-trib proponents.

Jacob also made a judgment about Paul that needs to be addressed. Jacob was absolutely correct in saying “Love requires truth” and pointing out that love and truth are not mutually exclusive. But when he added, “And he [Paul] doesn’t have any,” I think it was an overstatement. It’s the same accusation Paul made about Joe, Jacob, and Joel. Certainly Paul and you three have love (although it’s difficult to detect in this debate) and Paul does have truth, but just not in holding so intractably to the pre-trib “rapture” position. I’m sure that’s what Jacob meant to say, but some might misconstrue otherwise.

Jacob challenged Paul to a public debate. I would advise against it. Rather, meet in private, at least at first, with neutral brothers, and present all the Scriptures you have to support your positions. Better yet, drop the argument and embrace each other in love and genuine fellowship, and admit to the brethren at large that you both overreacted to each other’s words because of misunderstandings.

After stating opposition to those who deny the truth of the “rapture” and the common beliefs held by both pre- and post-tribulationists, Jacob asks Paul, “Why are you attacking us?”

It’s obvious why, even if wrongly done so in such a harsh manner. Paul took the video as a personal attack against him and his contemporaries who hold to the pre-trib position. I do believe Paul overreacted and used some inflammatory language that is far more than that of which he accused Joe, Jacob, and Joel. I’d ask Joe, Jacob, and Joel to extend grace to Paul for his overreaction, knowing that the video was a dagger in his heart.

Jacob, your reference to how Jerry Falwell and other pre-trib proponents welcomed Sun Myung Moon with open arms at Liberty Institute was spot on! I recall that event, and wrote a strong article in Media Spotlight about it when it happened. Your warning to pre-tribbers about accepting an anti-Christ, let alone the antiChrist, was also right on. Thanks for reminding us of that. But considering what I know of the mistaken understanding of Scripture that both pre-trib and post-trib proponents hold, the same could be said of posttribbers perhaps to a lesser degree.

Betraying Israel Part II

Paul, I’m afraid my most difficult task is addressing your message. In my e-mail to you I cited only two things: the use of the words “heresy” and “abominable.” But there is much more that concerned me.

To begin, you state, “This DVD is damaging, destructive, dangerous, and it is thoroughly dishonest. And it is one of the most abominable Christian DVDs I’ve ever sat through….It is full of false accusations, unsubstantiated myths, and lies. And you’ve seen the men that are behind this production daring to say that you and I, and the Berean Call, and my home church Hazel Grove, and many ministries in many churches are leading millions of believers into apostasy by preparing the church to meet the Lord Jesus Christ at any moment.”

The DVD is not “thoroughly dishonest.” There were some issues in it with which I take exception as well, but to accuse three good brothers of dishonesty, making false accusations, presenting unsubstantiated myths, and speaking lies, is serious error, especially in view of the fact that you offered no concrete evidence for your claim. The only problems with the video that I can agree with you on concern those I mentioned above. But they do not constitute dishonesty, myths, and lies. Nor were any false accusations made against you or your contemporaries. Almost everything they said in the video about the origins of the pre-trib “rapture” theory, other than what they said about Irving’s alleged connection to Lacunza, can be substantiated. It truly bothers me that you would use such inflammatory language against brothers in Christ.

Also, they aren’t accusing you of leading the brethren into apostasy. At the most they contend that the pretrib position leaves the pre-trib brethren open to the possibility of falling into apostasy because such brethren may be confused when confronted by the anti-Christ and begin to suffer tribulation. That’s not an indictment against you or your pre-trib contemporaries.

You also said, “the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture-the belief that the Lord Jesus Christ will come for us His church before the seven-year tribulation begins is found right here in the Word of God. Not with Scofield, not with Darby, not with any historical church leader; right here in the Word of God.”

But Paul, you never offered a single verse to substantiate a pre-trib claim. I used to believe in the pre-trib “rapture” when I was a new believer because that was what I learned from brethren I knew at the time. I even bought Hal Lindsey’s The Late, Great Planet Earth in bulk and gave them away to people because I thought it was the truth. Then I began studying the Scriptures for myself and I realized that I couldn’t substantiate the pre-trib “rapture,” let alone a secret pre-trib “rapture.”

You said, “The basic premise [of Left Behind or Led Astray?] is that the doctrine of the pre-tribulation ‘rapture’ can be traced back to the so-called prophetic utterance of a 15-year-old Scottish lass called Margaret MacDonald in March, 1830, and that the man that developed that doctrine of the rapture-Edward Irving, John Nelson Darby were present and witnessed Margaret Macdonald giving such an utterance. Number one, the prophetic utterance, so-called, that she gave bears no resemblance whatsoever to a pretribulation rapture.”

Neither Joe, Jacob, Joel, nor anyone they interviewed said that the pre-trib doctrine came from Macdonald. They merely pointed to her as the origin of the secret “rapture” which happens to be held almost exclusively by pre-trib proponents. By adopting the idea of a secret “rapture,” pre-tribbers (inadvertently?) link themselves to Macdonald. This is because there is nothing in Scripture or history prior to her that suggests a secret catching up of the saints.

You were correct that Newton was not in Scotland at the time Nelson was with Macdonald. I hope that Joe’s explanation helps assuage your concern about that.

One of your harshest statements was this, regarding the error of showing in the scene an extra who also portrayed Newton: “That fact alone completely undermines the whole credibility of this project because he has not done his research.”

In four-and-a-half hours, I found that there is much valid documentation, some of which I have considered myself in the past. One scene in which a partial view of “Newton’s” beard is evident, and not much more, does not undermine the whole credibility of the video, let alone completely. That overstatement should put your adherents on alert.

You continued with your credentials on Darby, and repeatedly accused the brothers of “outright lies,” “false accusations,” “dishonesty,” “unsubstantiated myths.”

Those are serious accusations. You did not prove any o f them, but went on to list the accusations of posttribbers against the pre-trib position. You said that all their claims are not valid. But (and this is a huge “but”) you offered nothing to prove them invalid.

After not giving any evidence to show they were wrong in their assessment of the pre-trib doctrine, you said:

“But there’s other points that I want to bring out because the post-tribulation belief that Joe Schimmel espouses, Joel Richardson, the pre-wrath view that Jacob Prasch espouses: these are heretical views. To teach that the church is going to go through any part of the tribulation period is an abominable thing to teach because it robs believers of the blessedness of the blessed hope. It doesn’t fill believers with joy, and expectancy, and longing; it fills them with fear, it fills them with a kind of militancy-that they’re going to stand against the anti-Christ; they’re going to face the mark of the beast.”

As a non-pre-tribber (and non-post-tribber), I can tell you that I do not live in fear; I am filled with joy and expectancy; I still hold to my blessed hope, which is resurrection in Christ (some, as do the “Three J’s,” say it is Jesus Himself, and I can go with that). You are basing your conclusion on what you have experienced from some weak, unknowledgeable Christians. Those of us who know the Word of God and expect that the Body of Christ will go through tribulation in this world (as promised by our Lord) also expect that the Holy Spirit will be given in such measure that He will cause us to stand. There is no need to fear.

But what about those who learn from you that any teaching that believers will experience any part of the tribulation period is heresy? When great tribulation comes upon them, what will they do? Your message works well in the United States and Canada, but look what’s developing in Europe today, and is already making inroads into the North American continent.

I continue with your message, with my comments interspersed in brackets:

You also state: “This is not a period of time that has been decreed for the church. This is like an inverted form of replacement theology where now the church is being placed in the judgment passages that are for Israel and the nations of the world. What this teaching does is cause the church to pass through a Protestant form of purgatory [That’s reaching]. Because Joe Schimmel will say in this documentary that the church is going to be purified during this tribulation period so that she is ready to meet the bridegroom, the Lord Jesus Christ. That’s a lie. There is nothing in Scripture that supports that claim. Now is the time to get ready. [Agreed] The Lord Jesus Christ has taken the wrath that was upon us, Paul writes in Ephesians 2.

If “that’s a lie,” then the apostle Paul lied when he said Jesus would present to Himself an ecclesia without spot or wrinkle or any such thing (Eph 5:27). The context is holy living and submission to one another in love and sound doctrine (the washing with the water of the Word). The spots and wrinkles in the ecclesia are the false brethren, false teachers, wolves in sheep’s clothing, who would lead us into false doctrine and works of the flesh:

These are spots in your feasts of charity when they eat with you, feeding themselves without fear. They are clouds without water, carried around by winds; trees whose fruit withers; without fruit; twice dead; plucked up by the roots; raging waves of the sea foaming out their own shame; wandering stars to whom the blackness of darkness is reserved forever. (Jude 12-13).

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they do not understand, and shall utterly perish in their own corruption, and shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasurable to riot in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, reveling themselves with their own deceiving while they feast with you-having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: a heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children that have forsaken the right way, and have gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness but was rebuked for his iniquity, the mute donkey speaking with a man’s voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a storm, to whom the mist of darkness is reserved forever. (2 Pe 2:12-17)

[Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ has taken the wrath that was upon us. But tribulation is not wrath; it is testing and purifying, not destructive. He has taken upon Himself our wrath individually, but the Body of Christ corporately must be purified of the spots and wrinkles and all imperfection in order to be presented to Him as a chaste member (along with the faithful Israelites and their proselytes prior to Christ’s first coming) of the Bride (New Jerusalem). The Body of Christ is likened to a bride in some Scriptures, but it is not the Bride of the Lamb; it will be part of the Bride. Cleansing comes through persecution, and it’s only fitting that the final cleansing comes through persecution by the final anti-Christ. But again, He will give us grace to endure if we must.]

No, today, right now, we’re being encouraged to long for His appearing: the bride making herself ready. Why should-and my pastor’s wife has made this statement; wonderful wisdom from the Lord-why should the final generation of the church have to pass through a period of time that the church of 2000 years has not had to pass through in order to be purified?

[The Body of Christ throughout history has suffered tribulation. Jesus promised us tribulation and suffering if our faith is genuine; there is no promise of escape from these things. There is only the promise that He will make a way through them, and/or we may be able to flee from them (if by His will we are not destined for the sword).]

The church is the church of all ages. Why should this generation-if we’re the last generation- why should we have to pass through this particular period and face this unique testing?

[It’s not unique except in its timing and the source of the persecution.]

No, our brothers and sisters in Christ are being tested right now in the most unbelievable, horrific circumstances in parts of this world. Not so much here in the United States, and not in the United Kingdom

[Wait; Islam is coming for you.]

But finally, most seriously, this teaching that puts the church through part or all of the tribulation period robs Almighty God of His glory. For He alone will be the Savior of Israel; He is not going to get a helping hand from the church. [Who says He is?] And that’s what many post-tribulationists teach. “We’ve got to be there for Israel.”

No, we’re here for Israel right now with the Gospel when we have opportunity, and in our prayers, and in our faithful exposition of God’s Word. We will not have our fingerprints-as my pastor says-on God’s glory.

[Nobody is saying we will have our fingerprints on God’s glory. But God does use men to advance His purposes, and lauds the faithful. That’s what His rewards are about.]

Post-tribulationism, any form of tribulationism that places the church in that period of God’s wrath being outpoured upon the earth is a terrible heresy in the church.

[Again with the “heresy” accusation.]

The Lord Jesus is longing to be with His Bride. And therefore He expects that the Bride in turn will be longing to be with the Bridegroom….

A few years ago, on this platform, I shared a message entitled “The Spirit and the Bride say ‘come’.” And that’s how the Bible ends, with the Spirit-the Holy Spirit-and the Bride-the church-saying to the Lord Jesus, “Come.”

[You quote the Revelation passage that reveals New Jerusalem as the Bride of the Lamb, but then apply it to the “church.” There is no such thing as “the church.” There is only Israel into which the gentiles have been grafted through faith in Israel’s Messiah. Jesus made His New Covenant with Judah and Israel-not with “the church.”]

Joe Schimmel, and those alongside him who are involved in that production, that’s not what’s coming out of their heart.

[You are judging their hearts? Dear brother, that’s a serious error (dare I call it “sin”?). Say you believe that’s not what’s coming across by their words. But don’t say that’s not what’s coming out of their hearts.]

That’s not what you’re hearing throughout this documentary. It’s all about what we must do in readiness, not for the Lord Jesus Christ, but for the anti-Christ.

[You make it sound as if they are longing for the anti-Christ rather than for Jesus. You know that’s not true. These are careless words that I hope you didn’t mean.]

And it’s a terrible deception. And it puts fear in people-creates confusion, robs the Bride of Christ in part of her joy, takes, steals the hope of the Blessed Hope, and causes, ultimately, many in the church not to be ready for that most glorious day….You will not hear these men talk about their love for Jesus. You’ll not see the tears fall down their cheeks. They will speak of the coming of the Lord very academically and very intellectually, but where’s the heart?

[Again judging their hearts. Their message was academic, yes, but have you never spoken academically or at times without shedding tears?]

Where is the love; where is the longing? You see, it’s not there. And one of the reasons it’s not there is because they’re not pastors. They’ve not been called to take care of the flock.

[Joe Schimmel has been a pastor for years. Jacob does oversee a number of assemblies. But even so, do you think that only pastors care for God’s people? Only pastors of establishment churches care for the body of Christ? How is that going, today? Neither was Dave Hunt a pastor, but you accept that he cared for the Body of Christ. I may be mistaken, but I don’t think Tom MacMahon is a pastor?]

Tom, you didn’t have much to say at the end, but I am concerned about some of what you did say: You know, we’ve been talking about this. Those who have not a love of the truth-Second Thessalonians-God will send strong delusion. You just wonder why, when it should be so obvious from the clear teaching of Scripture. But once you have an agenda-once you begin to impose your own ideas, your own views-God says, “Okay, but you’re not going to produce fruit. And it’s going to lead to more problems, self-destruction, all of the above.

[You have accused these three good brothers of not having a love of the truth, citing a Scripture that is clearly aimed at false brothers. What is obvious from the clear teaching of Scripture-the pre-trib “rapture”? With all the objections to this video, no one has shown any clear teaching of Scripture to refute it or to prove the pre-trib “rapture.” Do you think, Tom, that you, Paul and other pre-trib proponents might have your own agenda?

[You intractably cling even to the secret aspect of the theory. I believe these men have produced much good fruit. Of course the Lord is the ultimate judge, but knowing what I do of them I would count them as true, not false, brothers. I would say the same about you, Tom. I love you, and am concerned that Berean Call will be harmed by such an intractable stance, especially utilizing such unkind, harsh words against the Lord’s servants.] [I see that in the current The Berean Call you reprinted an article by Dave affirming his belief in the pre-trib “rapture.” At the end you included testimonials by various respected brothers to bolster that position. Dave’s understanding of the so-called Great Tribulation is Dispensationalist, and I don’t fault him for misunderstanding just what the Great Tribulation really is. I asked that you read my book, The Day of Yahweh, but you indicated to me that you do not wish to do so. Thus, I will leave it at that. Only know that you are missing something vital, and are harshly judging brothers who do not agree with you. As far as testimonials go, they are men’s opinions. There are testimonials to back every kind of belief, true and false. Testimonials do not hold the weight of Scripture, which, in spite of the harsh condemnation of these post-trib brothers, pre-trib proponents seem incapable of providing to unequivocally prove their point.]

Conclusion

Brothers, if you have read through my detailed analysis of the dispute, I fear I may have gone beyond the limits of your patience. I don’t think it’s necessary to address Paul’s “rebuttal” (there’s nothing sufficiently different from his message at the Berean Call conference to warrant more of your time), other than to say that denial is not “rebuttal.” A true rebuttal at least attempts to prove one’s position as being right and/or the opposing position in error. I saw no such attempt, Paul. All you did was deny what was presented in the video.

In summary of the detailed analysis, please consider the following (I will remind you that I disagree with much of both your positions):

I saw in Left Behind or Led Astray? nothing unloving or harsh toward those true brothers who hold the pretribulational “rapture” position. The harsh words were for Irving, Darby, and Macdonald, but in addressing the major proponents of pre-trib such as La Haye, Lindsey, et al, assertions and facts were stated with little or no emotion, and many of those assertions are proved true by much documented evidence.

The only hint of harshness on the part of the post-trib brothers was Jacob’s use of the term “stupid” to describe Paul’s reaction to Left Behind or Led Astray? and accusing Paul of not having any truth or love in reaction to Paul’s same accusations against Joe, Jacob, and Joel.

Paul, you gave some of the best information on the portions of Israel Betrayed that I have heard anyone give regarding that subject. Bravo! But I believe you overreacted to the video, using terms that can only be described as unloving, accusing the brothers of “outright” lying, deceit, heresy, and misrepresentation, among other things. You also (first) accused them of not having any truth or love, while judging their hearts and demeaning their scholarship. (Not that I consider scholarship any great shakes; scholars disagree on everything depending on where they learned what they came to believe.) All this was done without offering any definitive proof from Scripture or history to defend your position.

There were parts of Left Behind or Led Astray? That can legitimately be challenged, and Joe erred in how he handled four specific things: 1) the portrayal of the actor who played the part of Benjamin Newton in the scene with the actor who played the part of John Darby observing Margaret Macdonald’s ecstatic utterances; 2) the attempt to link Irving to Lacunza was weak at best, and not really conclusive, thus better left out; 3) the inclusion of Colin Le Noury’s interview, which Colin requested not be included; 4) the omitting of Colin’s statement that the pre-trib position is drawn from many Scriptures (although Joe did mention that he said words to that effect).

Tom, your defense of Paul’s attack against these brothers saddens me. You also accused them of not having a love of the truth and for that reason God will send them “strong delusion.” That suggests that God will damn them. Why? Because they don’t agree with your pre-trib position. Think about that. Is that not cultic? Only those who believe in a pre-trib “rapture” will be saved? Now, I know you don’t believe that, but that’s how your words came across. You also charged them with not producing fruit. This, too, was not only unloving, but a patent falsehood.

The detailed analysis above covers many, but not all, of my concerns, and this conclusion is purposely abbreviated. I could say much more.

I’m sticking out my neck for all of you who are so passionate about your positions by suggesting that both pre-trib and post-trib proponents misunderstand some important Scriptural truths. I do so in order to convince you that I am truly objective in my assessment of your dispute.

One misunderstanding concerns Matthew 24:40-41 (one will be taken and one left). This is not referring to the “rapture.” The context is judgment

“But as the days of Noah were, so also shall be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in the days that were before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away. So also the coming of the Son of Man shall be. “Then two will be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. “Watch therefore, because you do not know what hour your Lord will come.

At the very least, one cannot be dogmatic that this is a reference to the “rapture.”

The other common mistake is calling the “church” the Bride of Christ, especially when referencing Rev. 19. The Bride of Christ is not “the church.” The Bride is New Jerusalem, and she will not be made ready until after the Millennium. Pastors don’t prepare the Bride; the Father does. You all rightly denounce replacement theology, but you believe there is something other than Israel called “the church.” I will remind you that the Body of Christ is made up of ancient and future faithful Israelites and Gentiles, the latter grafted into Israel via the New Covenant in Jesus’ blood, made with Judah and Israel (Jer 33:26; Heb 8:8). The word “church” is an invalid, hierarchically invented term for the Greek ecclesia-“called out.” You all know this. But by believing there is something other than Israel, called “the church” during this time of the Gentiles (the time for them to be brought into Israel before Jesus restores the nation), both of your eschatologies suffer. You cannot truly understand eschatology without first understanding the truth that the New Covenant was made only with Israel and Judah.

Another common mistake has to do with the term “great tribulation.” To deal with this took almost a chapter in my book, so I’ll just say that there is no such thing called “THE” Great Tribulation. Jesus spoke of “great tribulation” twice. Matthew 24:21 had to do with Jacob’s Trouble which began in AD 67 and ended in AD 70, to commence again at the end of the age of the Gentiles for the second half of Daniel’s 70th “seven.”

Revelation 2:22 was a warning to the assembly in Thyatira that those who committed adultery with Jezebel would be cast into great tribulation. This may be a type of what will happen to believers in the last days who love the world more than Christ, but it was first specific to Thyatira at that time.

Revelation 7:14 addresses “people of all nations, kindreds, people, and languages, who have come out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” These are not just Jews during the time of Jacob’s Trouble, which comes later.

There is no specific time frame for the “great tribulation” of which Jesus spoke. It is assumed by both pre and post-tribbers that “great tribulation” means the last “week” of Daniel’s 70 “weeks” (more properly “sevens”), and that all seven years are still future. They are not one and the same except for Matthew 24 where Jesus was warning His disciples of what was coming upon Jerusalem and the temple in which they were standing at the time. He was warning of the first half of Daniel’s 70th “seven” which would end with the taking away of the sacrifices in AD 70. He was speaking prophetically, not historically chronologically when He said He would come “immediately” after the tribulation of those days.” He will come for His saints in the “rapture” before the second half of Daniel’s 70th 7 commences.

You would have to read my book to fully understand what I am saying, and I would be blessed to send it to all of you if you’d care to read it.

Finally, let me share with you something the Lord showed me when I was compiling my book, The Day of Yahweh: A Biblical Eschatology with a Study in the Book of Revelation. I’m sure at least some of you are aware of these, but may need reminding.

1) There is a difference between prophetic history and chronological human history. For example, we know there is a gap in time between Daniel’s 69th “seven” when Messiah was killed, and the 70th “seven” that begins Jacob’s Trouble. Prophecy centers on Israel, and particularly Jerusalem. Yet Daniel’s prophecy reads as a continuous fulfillment. A clue: There is a gap between the first half of Daniel’s 70th “seven” when the sacrifices are cut off, and the second half which will end with the Lord delivering Israel out of suffering under the anti-Christ (Romans 11:25-26). That gap is the time for the Gentiles to be grafted into Israel; it is not part of Daniel’s prophecy.

2) When Scripture speaks of princes and kings of nations involved with Israel, it is not merely referring to men, but primarily to spiritual principalities over those men and nations. That’s why we cannot assume that prophetic history concerning these kings and princes is chronological according to human history. It rests on prophetic history. That is why it seems as if the same person is active across centuries.

3) Many events that both post- and pre-tribbers are expecting to occur as signs of anti-Christ and the return of Christ are in the past, many are in the future. Preterists have correctly identified some things as in the past, but they err in assuming that this means nothing-especially in the Book of Revelation-is yet future. A correct understanding can be achieved only by men setting aside their presuppositions based on the particular theological disciplines they have learned, and being willing to look at things in a new light, totally surrendered to the Lord and unconcerned with how they will be looked upon by the vast majority of misguided adherents to the popular eschatologies of the day.

I fully realize that you are all heavily invested in your teachings, and I would be amazed if any of you were willing to turn away from the eschatology you hold, even if you see the truth in what I have written. That’s between you and our Lord. I make no demands (nor can I; who am I to do so?). I would be blessed just to have you consider what I have to say as possibly true.

Now, please bear with me as I reveal a bit more about myself, as I feel this may be important to whether or not you consider my opinion of any worth.

When I first formed Media Spotlight Ministries in 1977, I asked a trusted and good friend if he thought I should go to Bible school or seminary and work toward a doctorate in order to enhance my credibility. He holds both a PhD and a ThD, and was at the time a professor at a Christian College. His advice was not to do so because I would become frustrated by the insistence that I hold the views of the particular school or fail. I would end up compromising my integrity in order to succeed, or drop out from that frustration.

That good friend is Dr. Bob Simonds who founded Citizens for Excellence in Education and National Association of Christian Educators, with the intent of influencing public schools with a biblical ethic. His years of labor had many successes, but overall we know that public education is Satan’s playground. He is now 90-years of age and no longer active in those organizations. And here’s something important: he is a dispensationalist.

In spite of that disagreement we love each other and speak kindly to one another. I can say the same of Jay Grimstead the founder of Coalition on Revival, which has leanings (although not fully in the camp) towards Christian Reconstruction (which came out of Reformed Theology and amillennialism). Jay is not, to my knowledge amillennial himself, but has worked to instill a biblical ethic within society. Bob, Jay, and I are at odds on some things that I consider very serious, but we genuinely love each other and would never treat one another in the manner I have observed in this pre-trib/post-trib dispute. In spite of my even having published a strong criticism of Coalition on Revival, Jay Grimstead has always been gracious toward me.

Today I am thankful that Bob Simonds dissuaded me from seeking a theological degree, and that the Lord has taught me from His Word. Over many years He has allowed me to fellowship with other good brothers from whom I have learned as well, yet testing all things by God’s Word. So I will tell you now that I hold no degrees after my name except HSD.

You can figure that out for yourselves. And you can take or leave anything or everything I’ve said in this lengthy letter. But my prayer is that you will be touched in your hearts to apologize to one another (even if you feel you have done nothing wrong, but have been misjudged), in order to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. And by all means, make your apologies public without trying to defend your positions.

Remembering what 1 Cor 13 is all about, the first one of you to issue a public apology-regardless of how the others respond-will be most favored by our precious Lord.

I humbly submit this request to you in the love of Jesus Christ, our Great Redeemer, and I beg your forgiveness if I have inadvertently injured you by my difficult words.

In Jesus’ love,

Albert James Dager (Just plain Al to you)
Editor & Publisher
Media Spotlight
This letter was not edited.

The following is Jacob Prasch’s response:

A Reply to Al Dagger from Jacob

Blessings in Jesus.

I consider this to be a fair & accurate assessment by Brother Al and it is fairly comprehensive.

I would personally have no objections if Al wishes to print or web post it in the public domain inclusive of his critical observations of myself in certain specified regards, with which many would likely agree.

It is however unclear if Al realises that neither Joel or I were in involved in the production of “Left Behind or Led Astray” other than for no more than several minutes of contribution to the footage. We did not see the film until it’s release. I do however agree with Al’s remarks, but I find few objections to the film on the basis of its contents and I would defend its documented historical accuracy.

There are three issues I would like to briefly raise in response. First of all, Pre Wrath brethren believe that an angel is the restrainer, while I agree with Pre Trib Brethren that it is The Holy Spirit ; I simply do not equate the removal of The Restrainer with the Rapture (The Greek text simply states that “He will cease restraining”, it does not state that the restrainer will be taken away). Thus, while I agree with Pre Wrath brethren on the timing of the rapture etc., my Intra Seal position is not exactly the same and I cannot be said to speak for the Pre Wrath position. There are certain differences.

Secondly, TA Mc Mahon’s shocking presentation and endorsement of Thomas Ice on the radio interview in which Thos. Ice promotes the view that the Great Apostasy of 2 Thess. Chap. 2 is the rapture is at open odds with what Dave Hunt and most other Pre Trib advocates believed and believe about the apostasy . Likewise, Dave Hunt forwarded the later edition of CH Broadbent’s ‘The Pilgrim Church’ which was featured and promoted by TBC. CH Broadbent, who was Brethren from childhood, was highly critical in that book of the person and legacy of JN Darby, and that book is was endorsed strongly by Dave Hunt in his forward.

Most seriously of all however is the promulgation by TA Mc Mahon on radio and by Paul Wilkinson at the TBC conference that the Trinity is not found plainly taught in the New Testament and must be”extrapolated”.

This is a dangerous and false teaching straight from the pages of the JW Watchtower and the lies of the Neo Sabelian ‘Jesus Only’ cult. As stated on the rebuttal video, John 14 and the Great Commission (where ‘Name’ is singular in the Greek text) clearly teach the Tri-unity of

The God – Head exegetically. TA Mc Mahon’s statements echoed by Paul Wilkinson are music to the ears of a Jehovah’s Witness. For what had been the foremost discernment ministry in the world with Dave Hunt to now be reduced to a sounding board for such error that Dave Hunt never would have approved of is to say the least, very distressing and indeed extremely sad.

I must be honest here. There has been a major shift away from the heritage of Dave Hunt at TBC once TA Mc Mahon got hold of it in a number of areas. I have cited only three instances, but there are others not germane to the PreTrib issue not relevant to the issue at hand.

• When Waiter Martin went to be with The Lord, CRI should have been buried in the same grave with him because once Hank H. got hold of CRI, he dragged it away from what it had been and killed it. CRI died with Walter Martin.
• When Martin Lloyd Jones went home to glory Westminister Chapel should have been buried in the same grave with him because once RT Kendall got hold of it he likewise dragged it away from what it had been and killed it. Westminister Chapel died with Martin Lloyd Jones.
• When Chuck Smith went to be with Jesus, Calvary Chapel should have been buried in the same grave with him because once Brian Broderson got hold of it he dragged it away from what it had been and killed it. CC died with Chuck Smith.

Now, it is the same. Dave Hunt would have never approved of TBC promoting this ludicrous Thomas Ice/ Tim La Haye false teaching that even most Pre Trib brethren reject that the Great Apostasy = the Rapture on its broadcast opposing non pre Trib proponents. More seriously still, neither would Dave Hunt have ever echoed this dangerous and false JW teaching that the Trinity must my extrapolated because it is not literally taught in scripture.

Again, there are other issues I could state also but will not regarding the direction that TBC is now so quickly gravitating into. When Dave Hunt went to be with The Lord, it now crushingly seems that TBC should have been buried in the same grave with him also, because once TA Mc Mahon got hold of it he began dragging TBC away from the heritage of Dave Hunt and he is likewise killing it off. When Brother Dave Hunt died, The Berean Call in the same way died with him.

It is indeed a very painful and an utterly shameful trend to witness. It is not unique to TBC, yet TA Mc Mahon has very conspicuously placed TBC into the same ugly groove. If TBC had been kept as a ere mechanism to perpetuate the teachings of Dave Hunt now that he is with Jesus in the way that J. Vernon Mc Gee’s ministry functions – I could respect and even value that. But thus is not the case. With a deep grief I only wish I was wrong. Dave Hunt never said or gave place for TBC to engage in the promotion of such dangerous and heterodox deceptions.

When Dave Hunt was still with us TBC was one of God’s chief vehicles to alert the Body of Christ against deception. Now in marked departure from what Dave Hunt said and did, TA Mc Mahon has been demonically duped into pursuing an agenda that is transforming TBC into a vehicle for the dissemination of deception. The denial of a literal basis for the Trinity or against all solid exegetical, contextual, and Co-textual reasoning, defining the Great Falling Away as being the Rapture are hardly trivial or peripheral deceptions. This is a keenly marketed attempt to mislead and deceive even the discerning remnant who under Dave Hunt came to trust TBC as a beacon of truth that exposes error and deception.

This is akin to John Mac Arthur’s false teaching being amplified by Brannon House and Jimmy De Young that it will be possible to worship Satan, follow anti Christ, and accept the Mark of The Beast and still be saved ( an erroneous teaching that likely would have sent Dave Hunt into near despondency, but which the new TBC of TA Mc Mahon has to date conspicuously failed to challenge). The very ministries who once armed armed the discerning remnant are themselves being seduced and reduced into megaphones for the amplification of serious Trinitarian and eschatological errors, The very one who sounded the caveat on the deduction of Christianity is quickly taking its place among the seducers; The Trinity is plainly taught in God’s Word, and the Great Apostasy is not the Rapture.

More troubling still us that if this can happen to John a Mac Arthur and TBC, I am not immune.

Let Moriel, Goodfight Ministries, and Media Spotlight also take care to beware;

‘If Possible The Elect Will Be a Deceived’.

On a personal note, for a brother like Tom Mc Mahon, whose views exactly paralleled my own on everything from Ecumenism, to Psychology, to Mel Gibson’s horrible movie, to have given Paul Wilkinson, a brother whose stand for Israel drew only my lauding sanction and promotion in Britain, the TBC conference podium as a public and internet platform to attack me as “not loving Jesus Christ” and “teaching heresy” has been a knife in the back to eclipse all of other times that I have been so stabbed.

The spectrum of those not pre Trib rank from AW Tozer and Walter Martin to David Pawson and Ray Comfort. To broadly paint all non Trib figures as Paul did at the TBC conference as being heretical and not being lovers of Christ is an outrage. Again, Dave Hunt never would have turned TBC into a public platform for propounding such a malignant and vicious eruption of slander and defamation.
It is like the Book of Kings – one generation is all that it takes to wreck havoc on the noble heritage of the previous one; one foolish son is all it takes to desecrate the legacy of the most noble of fathers.

It brings me no pleasure to think, much less to state such things. But this is what is obviously transpiring.

I have shared these convictions from a place of urgency and sincerity and not from any desire to retaliate or extract retribution for the public attacks launched on myself and others by

Tom Mc Mahon and Paul Wilkinson, two brothers whom I once would have counted as allies.

In conclusion, one thing is for absolutely certain. Irrespective of at which point we place the Resurrection and Rapture – Jesus is Indeed Coming Soon !

Thanks Al
With Much Love in Jesus,

J. Jacob Prasch
(Moriel)
Philippians 1:6
This letter was not edited.