Stupid Church People

Once in a Blue Moon

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 12:58:00 +0000

Nothing surprises me these days. But usually when I say that it's in reference to something bad happening. In this case, I was surprised yesterday by an email I received from Dave Page, the subject of an earlier post. I typically will not and have not posted personal email correspondence, but in this case I felt it was fair to post it, so here it is:

Steve -

As I have had read your website (especially the "Purpose Driven Pastor Season" post) I can now see I was wrong in my criticism of you and what you said. You really didn't put Rick Warren down but were attacking blind followership to a church culture that I realize can be a big turnoff to the unchurched and many Christians as well. I let my emotions get the best of me as I was seeking to defend Rick, whom I greatly admire, and the pastors who attend his conferences - some of which are friends of mine. Forgive the rude comment I made toward you and your bloggers.

Please accept my apologies,

Dave

I have emailed Dave to thank him and accept his apology. I appreciate Dave's willingness to come back and read a bit...and then to go above and beyond and apologize when he felt he was wrong.

I wish more pastors and church leaders who visit this site would stick around and dialogue. That's the most disheartening thing. Some (like Jimmy Bob or Shieldsy and even Tony Jones back in the day) are willing to stick around and interact. Even though we largely don't see eye-to-eye, they provide us balance. They've been attacked, laughed at, ridiculed and called out, but still they are willing to give us the opposing opinion and insight, and I greatly appreciate them for that.

The Immaturity of Religion

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:32:00 +0000

Ok kids, put your thinking caps on!

I was a Christianity major in college. I was also a Sociology major. Considering I attended and graduated from a Southern Baptist college probably sheds light on my very limited knowledge on both those subjects, however, I did keep some of the books and have turned to browsing through them. It's amazing how they are much more interesting now than they were then.

Fortunately, not every textbook we purchased came from the Southern Baptist Press. We were provided with mainstream texts, but they were filtered through the Southern Baptist lens of our professors. Reading them now in my un(church)filtered state, I am sometimes amazed at what these books were trying to tell me, and I am saddened that we weren't allowed to have honest discussions regarding the subjects they raised.

Here's some passages from an introductory text entitled "The Sociology of Religion" that I found interesting.

"The role religion plays in maturation is highly problematic. While it is difficult to assess religious dysfunction in maturation, we can see that there is the possibility that religion institutionalizes immaturity by encouraging believers to be dependent upon the religious institution and its leaders.

Religion can provide the necessary elements of security and definition at certain stages of life, to enable the individual to meet crises successfully and to develop a mature personality. Paradoxically, even in its dysfunctional promotion of dependence and immaturity, it can become a focus for the development of independence and maturity by becoming the object of conflict and rejection. From this process the development of a more mature attitude and point of view, either religious or irreligious, can take place."

This passage makes me feel smart. It says what I've been saying for the past three years: CHURCH PEOPLE NEED TO GROW UP!! As I have said before (most eloquently I might add)... the church is just a big nipple that people love to suck.

The church is a complete and total paradox. The church says that Christianity is about freedom and then in seeking to set you free it enslaves you. It tells you it wants to make you a "mature disciple and follower of Jesus", but to do so you have to stop thinking, stop questioning, get in line and be a stupid sheep follower of our version of Jesus.

The church says it offers you the "meat of the scripture" and that anything the world offers you is "milk". What you don't realize is that the church is offering you processed meat devoid of any real food value and that the milk of the world might be much more valuable to your overall balance and health.

No doubt, like the passage above states, the church can provide certain functions in a persons life to provide security and a level of stability. It can even assist in the maturation of a person... to a point.

I just think it's time that most church people grow up.

Spoken Like a True Duck

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 16:54:00 +0000

Here's a comment I received yesterday on an old post entitled "Purpose Driven Pastor Season".

Ducks "quack" and eagles soar! You guys are a bunch of ducks quacking as you spend time critizing Rick and other pastors who are seeking to make a difference.

Get a life!!!

Dave

The author is Dave Page, who describes himself as "a coach, communicator, teacher, encourager, husband, dad and wannabe basketball player :)". It says on his profile that he is the Director of Church Planting for a non-profit here in Southern California. Of course, he's making a difference... his job title says so!

If Dave can read, he would have found in the original post that I did not CRITICIZE Rick Warren, but actually the conference attendees who blindly follow Rick off the cliff of Purpose Driven Churchiness.

After reading Dave's blog, I have a feeling I know the guy. Probably met him somewhere along the line or heard of him when I was at Saddleback. Seems he has been around the Saddleback Church stuff for a long time. He's obviously a Warren disciple as was I, so I get why he is very invested in what he is doing.

However, I had to respond to Dave...because quite frankly he pissed me off and on top of that, he had no idea that he wrote his little BS comment to me at the wrong moment, on the wrong day, at the wrong hour, at precisely the wrong minute. Here's my email response:

Spoken like a true pastor. Very very inspirational and life changing - yet condescending too. Love the Hawaiian shirt... guess I hit a nerve with that line huh?

So what are you for spending your time criticizing me instead of "making a difference"?? Who is it that truly needs to get a life Dave?

I've got a life. You've got your warped subCULTure. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid my friend.

Take care... I've got to get back to NOT making a difference in the world.

Steve

Usually I ignore DUCKS like Dave, but on this day I cannot. At the moment he wrote, he was right. I wasn't busy making a difference. All I was doing is what millions of people do everyday... working hard at my job, trying to provide for my family, thinking about my kids future, navigating being a single dad and raising two sons. In addition, someone close to me is in the midst of crisis, so I was helping the family make physical and financial arrangements for a long-term treatment program, therapy for the children and overall trying to be a stable friend in the midst of their chaos.

Yeah Dave I guess you are right, only pastors and church planters are making a difference. Normal people like me do absolutely nothing.

Play for Jesus...

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Wed, 16 Jul 2008 09:34:00 +0000

My kids and I are in Maui for my oldest son's basketball tournament. I know, life's tough.

Anyway, while getting our rental car, I had informed the young and very perky agent of the reason for our visit. A couple of minutes later, my son came walking up and the agent said to him, "Are you the basketball player?"

"Yes", he said.

She replied, "Play for Jesus, it's the only thing that matters!"

In all honesty (and none of them spiritual), that statement made my day. Me and my son needed a good laugh. Of course, if Jesus is paying for my kids college education, we'll play for him anytime.

Feelings, Mysteries and More

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:13:00 +0000

Inspired by comments on the "Gay Marriage" post, I have been writing some things out for several days and I just can't finish it. So I am just going to throw up the thoughts I have been having and let them stand on their own. It's been hard for me to make a cohesive post out of it, but maybe you can help me explore it. So here it goes:

ON FEELINGS
For the most part, the Christian subculture is driven by feelings. The problem is, they don't want to admit it. Like a teenage boy driven by his libido, there is an energy and drive to have the feeling of love, relationship and connection while throwing most rationality to the wind. Christians hope for these things, write books and songs about them, and go to services each week to nurture these feelings that they hope to receive via a personal relationship with God.

I think this is an immature, dangerous and unhealthy lifestyle. At its worst it is border-line delusional and at its best it fosters co-dependency.

How does a Christian know God exists? They feel him. How do they know Jesus is "in their heart"? They feel his presence. Who is the "Holy Spirit"? He is the spiritual GPS system, guiding Christians to fulfill the purpose for their lives. How do you know which direction to take when you are at a crossroads?? The Holy Spirit will lead you and it will be clear largely because you will reach a place of peace about your decision. While immersed in the subculture, these thoughts make sense...remove yourself from it and you can see it for what it is: Bullshit! It's ok if you want to believe your own BS, just don't pass it off as fact for everyone else.

ON MYSTERY
The tendency of Christians is to think that atheists or agnostics do not believe in mysteries and wonders, while they supposedly embrace them. They talk of God, Jesus and the HS as being the ultimate mystery... as "real" as anything in the material world, yet unseen.

Christians have a feeling inside them about these things that make them real, like the feelings one has when being in love or watching a sunset. "If I feel it in my heart, it must be real", they say. While seeking to explain these they point to scriptures...for now in reading the Bible it all seems to make sense and the unexplainable becomes real. There are no longer mysteries.

Christianity seeks to explain mysteries, make sense of the unknown, have answers to life's most perplexing questions. However, what I have discovered is this: In Christianity there are no mysteries. Everything is God's plan, His will, His way...no mystery there. If there isn't an answer readily available, you extrapolate one from a myriad of verses in the Bible or you always have the go to line: "We may not know why, but God does. We must have faith in Him!" Once that is said every Christian now "feels" better.

WHERE I AM NOW
For me the real mystery has been leaving the safety of the Christian subculture and leaping from the cliff of faith and falling into the darkness of doubt. Being honest that I didn't "know know" anything was a very big key for me... because I don't. If Christians would just take a step back and listen to their own self-talk that keeps them connected into the Christian subculture, they would be amazed. I also think they would be healthier and happier. I know they'd feel better.

SCP RETREAT

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:42:00 +0000

We interrupt the gay marriage discussion for this very important post!!

The Pete and NinjaNun invaded So Cal last week and hung out with the SCP locals. Below are pics of Josh, Zeke, Mrs. Zeke and I cavorting with the vacationing two-some and making some memories along the way.

Good times!

And you can visit Josh's site for more pics, and I am sure Ninja and the Pete will have their pics up as well if you want to capture all angles of the event. And let me tell you, there were many angles to catch!

Enjoy the slideshow. You can also click on a picture to see the full-size version... as if the small versions of Josh weren't enough already!

Gay "Marriage" is Stupid

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:27:00 +0000

Gay couples all over California are getting married this week...and for now it's legal. But I think it's stupid. Hear me out.

First, let me be clear on this... being gay is not a sin. (When I refer to gays in this article, I am also including lesbians and bisexuals). I also don't think that sexual acts between homosexuals are sins in and of themselves. This is my viewpoint and it's not my intent to debate it here so let's not go there. I am writing about marriage, specifically gay marriage.

Sure, go ahead, get married...if it's something you want to do. However, I am of the opinion that having the state recognize something legally does not validate a couples private commitment to one another. Nor does it enhance it. In other words, just because me and another person get married should not altar the basic essence of our relationship or commitment to one another. I think we have been convinced that it does, but it shouldn't.

Committing to someone for the rest of one's life is a decision that is made in private. Having a ceremony with friends and family celebrating that commitment (i.e. wedding) is purely optional, however, affirming. Going to the courthouse and getting a marriage license to call each other husband and wife (or wife/wife or spouses), that's a legal step binding each other into a contractual relationship...nothing more or less in actuality.

So maybe you see where I am going with this...

Some have said that gays being given the right to marry weakens the long-held traditional idea of marriage. They say that, now, marriage between a man and a woman has been dishonored.

I say just the opposite.

The gay couples that I have read about this week who have been together 5, 10, 15, 20 years or more who are now getting married are actually weakening and dishonoring the long-held commitments they have shared. It is my opinion that the gay community has missed an opportunity to broaden the church and governments understanding of relational commitment by saying, "we don't want your idea of marriage as the only legal means with which we can express our commitments to one another. Traditional marriage in it's current form is flawed and it has failed."

It seems gay people, in this instance, have become the traditionalists that they tend to avoid. The gay people I know have a unique perspective on life. But in conversations with a few, they have this idea that now that they can get married "validates" them to their families and friends. That although they have always been seen as "less than" and "abnormal", that getting married would give them at least some sort of "normalcy" to parade to those that think this way.

I say that sort of thinking is short-sighted. Instead, I think, gays can lead those of us that are straight to understand a better idea of love. Through them we might learn what it means to love someone even though you have to hide to do it. Through committed gay couples we might learn to love someone in the face of persecution, ridicule or the possible loss of career and family. Maybe if straight couples had to face this type of daily struggle, they would appreciate each other more and less marriages would end in divorce.

To be fair though, I don't think gay couples have stronger relationships than straight couples or that less gay couples will get divorced than their straight counterparts. I would venture to guess that eventually the statistics will bear out that the gay divorce rate will most likely be the same as it is for straight people. So, my question is why do it? Why let the straight world "define" you now when you have spent so many years not wanting to be under their labels?

If I was gay, I would let straight people have marriage. Men and women (not gays) have ruined that word by not respecting the commitments and trust it implies. In the meantime, I think gays should continue to demand that the government recognize their partnerships so that they can have all the benefits and rights that straight couples do. If the current policies aren't strong enough, let's change them.

But, in my opinion, gay marriage is stupid. They really deserve something better than marriage in its current state. Actually, we all do.

Daily Devotional for SCP

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 06:11:00 +0000

Go. Listen. Now.
(Especially the last twenty minutes).

Jesus: Sinner of Sinners

by Jay Bakker

The Not So Relevant Christian

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Fri, 30 May 2008 05:24:00 +0000

I stumbled over into the Relevant Christian blog. As I scrolled through I came across a post on Jay Bakker and his involvement with Soulforce, whose mission is to "cut off homophobia at its source -- religious bigotry."

I'll leave it to you to read what the author wrote, but needless to say I think the "Relevant Christian" blog is grossly misnamed. Here are my comments on his post (along with his reply).

STEVE C says:
I thought the title of this blog was “Relevant Christian”!??

Nope… just another “ignorant one”!

JIMMY says:
Thank you Steve…I needed a good laugh this morning.

Tell me…where am I wrong in what I said? Whay (sic) does what I said make me ‘ignorant’?

I am willing to listen.

STEVE C says:
I would have said “stupid” instead of ignorant, but I didn’t want to appear rude. However, why quibble over semantics.

So where were you wrong?

1) Jay didn’t say that everyone will be saved. I don’t know, maybe that’s what he believes, but you certainly can’t conclude that from this interview.

You completely take a quote out of context from the interview you cite and conclude that Jay Bakker believes certain things theologically. Re-read the interview. What Jay did say when asked about his church was this: “We’re a church just trying to show people how to love Christ. We open the doors of the church and welcome people in. Just loving people as Christ and being inclusive rather than exclusive.”

Then later this: “there are a lot of people who don’t want you to include everybody. They think that you’re either opening the door too wide or you’re condoning sin and that can be a struggle. But we feel convicted to do what we do. It’s what God’s called us to do–love people where they’re at [in life].”

From what I read, Jay seems to be saying that HIS church isn’t wanting to be exclusionary. They made this decision based on their belief that it fulfills a mission they have which is loving people where they are.

2) Where else were you wrong? You write: “Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of their acceptance of the ‘alternative lifestyle’.” That’s a theologically inaccurate interpretation. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah certainly speaks to homosexual gang rape but not to an “alternative lifestyle” as you suggest. Actually I find Lot’s actions even more troubling in the story (offering his own daughters to the rapists who came to the door). This act of Lot seems to even suggest that the rapists weren’t interested in sex with men for the pleasure of sex, but were more interested in power and perversion of any sort. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for many reasons that had nothing to do with the “homosexual lifestyle”.

3) You make this statement: “I have no problem with the idea that we are supposed to love all people…even those who choose to be gay or lesbian…”

In typical condescending fashion you suggest that those who are gay and lesbian are making a “choice”. This extremely simplifies the matter. You make it seem like someone chooses their sexuality like a pair of shoes or what they are having for dinner. If things were only that simple. But for irrelevant and ignorant Christians like yourself it is that simple.

4) And finally, you state: “where I start to have issue with the whole Soulforce connection is that it appears to be advocating their chosen lifestyle.”

Wow!! Where to begin. Soulforce’s mission statement is “to cut off homophobia at its source — religious bigotry.” The same type of bigotry you are espousing here. I know you don’t think you are bigoted but you are…and you just don’t get it. But Jay Bakker does… read his comments next to your own and see who might actually be considered relevant as opposed to oppressive and judgmental.

“The more I love God and follow Christ, the more I want to love other people like God accepted and loved me. God has changed me, but I don’t place that same expectation on other people. I allow God to be God in people’s lives…. “Christians aren’t God. Religious people aren’t God. God loves you, just where you’re at… just the way you are, no matter what you’ve done. God loves you whether you love him or not and there’s nothing you can do about it. As far as the negative and judgmental stuff goes, realize that Jesus has a crappy fan club. Just don’t give up!”

Stuff In My Head (3)

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Thu, 22 May 2008 06:36:00 +0000

In corresponding with a reader regarding my most previoust post, we began to discuss "faith". I wrote:

Faith doesn't equal certainty. Doubts do not equal lack of faith. Truth is found as you continually seek.

I know I talk a lot about this but these type of conversations fascinate me.

A Pastor's Confession

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Thu, 08 May 2008 06:05:00 +0000

So you come to church on a Sunday morning.

It is time for the message and the pastor stands up and says,

"Good morning. Today is going to be a little different. I don't have a message or sermon prepared, but I thought maybe I could just talk to you about some things that have been troubling me.

For the last two or three years, I have begin to doubt many of the things I once believed. It's not been so hard to hide these things from you. Since most of the messages I preach have to do with how to be a better friend, or how to serve others, or how to have a stronger marriage, or how to deal with difficulties... it's actually been pretty easy to avoid some of the things that trouble me most.

I stand up here each and every week and feel very inadequate to be your pastor. I love you as my friends and my community, but I have found myself doubting almost everything that we have written in our church's statement of beliefs. And I have been afraid of saying this because being a pastor is all I have ever known. It's what I love to do. And even if I don't believe some of these things, I want to believe them. But wanting to believe doesn't help me to actually believe. However, my desire for knowing the truth remains the same.

I am still the same man I was yesterday... well, except for one thing. I am finally being honest about some of the things going on in my head and heart. I certainly understand that you may not want me to be your pastor any longer. But what I am hoping is that I can stick around and we can discover these truths together."

What do you do??

What should the church do??

A Pastor's Ego on Display

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Sat, 26 Apr 2008 17:50:00 +0000

Some of you may remember David Trotter from our site in 2007. He was a pastor in So Cal who was giving away a car to promote Easter at his church, Revolution. If you go back and read the comments, you will see that Trotter was pretty much unwilling to join our conversation, yet instead chose to egg us on and tell us to "keep it coming" with our criticism and attacks, as he labeled them.

Well in light of recent developments, I'd be careful what you wish for David.

A few weeks ago, I received an email from an SCP reader that filled me in on what's been going on in David's life and church. Several people, close to the situation and church, report that Trotter has left his wife after having an affair with another married woman in the church whom he is apparently still in a relationship. He has resigned his position at the church and has moved on to another entrepreneurial venture.

Below, I've provided links to the sites that share the story. They seem fairly consistent and honest, but I will let you read them and draw your own conclusions.

Michelle's Ramblings
A Little Bit of Us...
Sharon's Daily Cup Of Life
RagamuffinSoul
Meanderings of a Restless Wanderer (A pastor at Revolution Church)

Since leaving his church and, from what I can gather, his wife only a few short weeks ago, David has not been a shrinking violet. On his personal website, he posted pictures of him and his new girlfriend with their children all together playing in the pool and hiking...just another new blended and happy family. On the site he wrote:

As I think about the season of life that I'm walking through, my heart is filled with hope, anticipation, love, peace, longing, and grief. May the photos that appear each day allow these same emotions to emerge in your heart once again as well.

When I saw these pictures (one with his girlfriends' head on his shoulder and another with his girlfriend holding his son), I was shocked. It was a bold and brazen display showing a lack of sensitivity for his wife of so many years. It was not only in bad taste, but it was also bordering on cruel and unusual punishment. (About a week ago, the pictures on the site were removed - so either a sense of decency crept in or possibly his lawyer suggested such actions might not be in his best interests moving forward).

I have thought long and hard about what I should say, if anything, about these developments in this man's life. I don't know David Trotter, or anyone in his family... so why do I care? Originally, I was going to write an open letter to David (much like the one I did to Ted Haggard) encouraging him and admonishing him to not lose heart in the midst of this season of life he is facing. Looking back on that letter, I think it certainly applies to David Trotter as well. I hope he will read it.

However, after seeing his personal site and this damaging attitude that he has displayed publicly on the world wide web, I just couldn't in good conscience muster up the decency. I am not sure what it is that occurs in the life of someone when they leave their family to pursue another relationship... but from what I have observed first-hand it is the ultimate in selfishness - call it temporary insanity. As I wrote in my journal recently about this very subject:

In meeting your needs at the expense of others needs, you have to "turn off" thinking about how your actions effect the other person. You might feel sadness or pain at hurting someone later, but in the moment of choosing what is best for you, you cannot consider the other person's feelings. There's a certain disconnect that occurs at that very moment.

Feeding of an ego at the expense of other people's pain becomes a vicious and destructive cycle. Once you venture down that path, there is no turning back. Things will never be the same again. David Trotter knows this first-hand now better than anyone.

At the same time, I believe that David (and again I speak from personal experience) in many ways, feels more at peace, fulfilled and happy than he has in years. While I am sure he is sad at the pain he has caused, there is probably a sense of freedom that has enveloped him in the midst of no longer having to live a dual life. I no doubt imagine that David feels that, in many ways, his life is better than it was prior to this coming to the surface. And on several levels that might even be correct.

His level of ego and selfishness, once hidden behind doing the "Lord's work", is now being lived out in the open for all of us to see. Even now on his personal website is this quote that speaks volumes:

“The mark of a great player is in his ability to come back.
The great champions have all come back from defeat.”

Certainly Trotter has shown that he is a great player. I knew that from the very first day I was introduced to him regarding the car giveaway. But, for even one moment, thinking that he was a great champion on any level in his prior life as a pastor is an inflated ego gone mad.

This story has captivated me since I heard about it. I can relate from so many angles. Mostly, I keep coming back to the Trotter I observed approximately one year ago on this site, and honestly, I wasn't surprised that it has led him to this point. However, I am a bit surprised at how he has reacted to it.

There's no judgment in these statements. Just an honest opinion from years of observations.

What guys like Trotter don't understand is that although I am critical of pastors and churches in my writings here on SCP, it's because I feel I often know them better than they know themselves.

David, I am almost certain you are reading this and I want you to know and believe this - the Stupid Church People site was created by guys like you for guys like you. Take your mask off and stay awhile. You are welcome here anytime...just check your "pastor ego" at the door.

NOTE (4/28/08): An email from a reliable source informed SCP that the reason the pictures were taken down from Trotter's personal site was that the woman had ended the relationship and returned to her family.

God Bless You.... Bitch!

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 07:45:00 +0000

True story:

While standing in Home Depot last Sunday afternoon shopping for a new tool box, a couple was standing behind me talking. For whatever reason, maybe it was the way they were dressed, I don't know... but it struck me that they had most likely just come from church. I can't explain it, but my seventh sense told me they were church people.

As they moved down the aisle away from me, the church lady inadvertently bumped into another woman standing in her way. This woman reacted (or over-reacted I should say) and said something to the effect, "Look out where your going! Can't you say excuse me!" The church lady responded, "I didn't have the chance, but I am sorry". The grumpy woman replied, "Whatever!"... and proceeded to huff down the aisle in my direction.

At that moment, the church lady's husband blurted out "God Bless You! Have a nice day!" in the most condescending, patronizing way.

To me, the way he used it was much more offensive than any other way he could have chosen to take God's name in vain. He would have been much less of a hypocrite had he just gone ahead and called her a bitch rather than using God's name to communicate that same sentiment.

Certainly the grumpy woman acted like a hag, but I am most certain that the church lady's husbands name was "Dick".

No Going Back

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 06:59:00 +0000

How do you pick up the threads of an old life? How do you go on, when in your heart, you begin to understand, there is no going back.

There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep…that have taken hold.

~Frodo, The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King

I just thought this quote was very poignant and powerful... and also true for me on many levels.

Happy 3rd Birthday SCP

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 16:04:00 +0000

Stuff in My Head (2)

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Sat, 29 Mar 2008 04:57:00 +0000

Ok... so what I am hearing is that no one can agree. And it's more than a disagreement on something inconsequential... I mean the discussion in the comments section of my previous post are pretty damn heavy.

I write that my faith has been declared dead on another blog, and everyone proceeds to comment and muddy the faith waters even further.

You would think that the Bible would be pretty clear about how one is to be certain of something as important as eternal life. Does it just boil down to a matter of opinion based on one's interpretation of scripture (as defined by the multitude of denominations that abound)?

Seriously...the Baptists don't agree with the Methodists who don't agree with the Lutherans who don't agree with the Catholics who don't agree with the Church of Christ who don't agree with the Seventh Day Adventist who might even be considered a cult...depending on who you choose to agree with.

To be honest, the stuff in my head tells me that it's all bullshit. We don't really know definitively about the subject. Seriously, I give up. It'd be easier just to go back to church (any church will do really) and believe everything they tell me. At least faith was simpler when I didn't give a damn.

My Faith is Dead (I guess)

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 02:30:00 +0000

This from Josh S. (not Josh Sager - at least to my knowedge) over at Metalutheran:

I found the link at the site, Stupid Church People. It is the blog of two pastors who started off making fun of all the silly crap in evangelicalism, eventually despaired of the silliness, fakeness, and hypocrisy of evangelicalism, left the church environment entirely to find more authentic spirituality, and ended up renouncing the faith altogether. Read this post and realize that the very things this pastor is talking about eventually killed his faith. I find this stuff fascinating because in my opinion, evangelicalism is deadly. Yes, millions grow up in it just fine, learn to know Christ there, etc. But there are many who get caught in the eddies of everything wrong with it, and it is in those vortices that anything and everything that would incline them to pay attention to anything called "Christianity" is sucked right out of them.

And some comments:

John: ...didn't those two pastors endanger their faith when they created a blog to mock their brothers?

David: Not everyone who lives through kooky fundamentalism turns out that way. Those guys chose that path . They may have lived previously among the Stupid Church People , but now as the Stupid(er) Non-Church people I can't imagine how they think they're better off....

I sometimes wonder if people like these guys were always in the back of their mind looking for a way out and their focusing on the idiotic aspects of evangelical culture was the way they justified their leaving ? If you can demonize your former community then it's much easier to leave....

I realize that I sound like I'm angry at them (by calling them Stupid Non-Church people) and I'm really not . I'm heartbroken . I'm angry at the evangelical weirdness that gives people the nudge towards God-hating and I'm angry at the God-haters (the Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens types) who so readily supply them with slick , superficial "reasons" for why they are right to reject everything about Christ...

Finally Josh S. comments: ...they think they're better off because anyone who changes his mind about anything thinks he was better off than before, since if he were to think that his previous beliefs were better than his current, he would still hold them.

In any case, right when they left the church, there is still genuine faith expressed in those blog posts. What you see, though, is this belief at the same time that the Church, Christianity as such, strictly identified with megachurch evangelicalism, has "failed," so the authentic way of following Jesus is to be found outside of it. So they left. And died a few months later. Even in the worst of that evangelical circus, there is still something of Christ. But alone, you have nothing.

-------------------------

So I've visited the site and left a couple of comments of my own, but I thought I should share this over here and let you guys in on it. Initially I was a bit defensive at some of these comments (hate when I do that knee-jerk thing), but its a good thing to read what others think you are representing.

As I told them... I am not declaring anything about my faith publicly on this site. I continue on this journey. I just enjoy sharing it publicly on the web. Certainly Josh S. (again not Sager) and his friends are free to comment on this site and declare my faith dead if they like. Church people make those types of determinations all the time based solely on limited information and externals...and Josh's flavor of church people are just like all the rest when it boils down to it... even if they don't think so.

Stuff in My Head (1)

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Fri, 07 Mar 2008 00:04:00 +0000

When the facts and your knowledge/experiences don't match up with your beliefs... you either bury your head or change your beliefs. To believe otherwise in the face of the facts is to be at best, in denial, and at worst, delusional.

Back to Earth

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 08:22:00 +0000

Well first, Jeff goes bye-bye.... again. No surprise there (although he claims it wasn't his fault, I personally think it was completely his subconscious acting out.... again).

Then, the ever insightful Zeke says "Adios".

And next, I read that Dorsey is thinking of shutting down, but he does a head-fake and proceeds to post - but who knows for how long.

So here I sit after a month of not posting understanding that shutting up might be a blessing to some, but I am nowhere near done. If I ever was really honest about the things running around my brain, this blog might go to the next level. Trust me, I am working on it, working on me, working on my life... and seeing things much more clearly than I did even three months ago (not to mention three years ago).

Why? Because of one word.

Disconnecting.

I think disconnecting can be a very healthy thing for some people. It has been for me. Let me explain...

Prior to leaving the church, I was very connected to that community of people. Prior to experiencing the breakup of my marriage, I was also very connected to my wife.

What I have found is that what I perceived as healthy connections were truly unhealthy enmeshments. To be enmeshed in something is to be entangled and intertwined.

The level of which I was enmeshed in the church and in my marriage was unhealthy for me. To flip a phrase, it caused me to not see the trees for the forest. I was so enamored of the big picture of things... that I missed the realities of the situation and what was actually happening in front of me. I didn't bury my head in the sand, I often buried my head in the sky.

Disconnecting has caused me to see things more clearly. It has brought me back to earth.

I've Become Them

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:08:00 +0000

When I was a pastor, my "mission" was to "reach" the "unchurched". In my mind, my methods and strategies for doing so were relevant and cutting edge.

Now I am the "unchurched", and I realize how far off the mark I was back then.

I am coming to the conclusion that churches and pastors need to stop trying to be relevant. In doing so, most of the time they only end up looking silly.

The more they try to "reach" guys like me with their marketing schemes and "witty" sermon series titles, the more I just want to stay away.

The Evangelical Preacher

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 06:39:00 +0000

Given, a man with moderate intellect, a moral standard not higher than the average, some rhetorical affluence and great glibness of speech, what is the career in which, without aid of birth or money, he may most easily attain power and reputation...?

...in which a smattering of science and learning will pass for profound instruction, where platitudes will be accepted as wisdom, bigoted narrowness as holy zeal, unctuous egoism as God-given piety? Let such a man become an evangelical preacher; he will then find it possible to reconcile small ability with great ambition, superficial knowledge with the prestige of erudition, a middling morale with a high reputation of sanctity.

Pleasant to the clerical flesh... is the arrival of Sunday!... He has an immense advantage over all other public speakers. The platform orator is subject to the criticism of hisses and groans. Counsel for the plaintiff expects the retort of counsel for the defendant. The honorable gentleman on one side of the House is liable to have his facts and figures shown up by his honorable friend on the opposite side.... the preacher is completely master of the situation: no one may hiss, no one may depart. Like the writer of imaginary conversations, he may put what imbecilities he pleases into the mouths of his antagonists, and swell with triumph when he has refuted them. He may riot in gratuitous assertions, confident that no man will contradict him; he may exercise perfect free-will in logic, and invent illustrative experience; he may give an evangelical edition of history with the inconvenient facts omitted;-all this he may do with impunity, certain that those of his hearers who are not sympathizing are not listening.

~George Eliot, Westminster Review, 1855

Blog-Chic Circle Jerk

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Fri, 25 Jan 2008 07:57:00 +0000

Over on Jeff's blog he writes:

I read around the blogs & I sometimes wonder if we're not just the blind leading the blind...

Then, to clarify in the comments, he adds:

...it just feels like we've identified the "circle jerk" that is US evangelicalism, and counteracted it with a blog-chic, post-modern "circle-jerk" of our own...

In some ways, we're just like the church, only in reverse. What's the point of that?

In response to Jeff I wrote the following comment. I think it could not have been more timely in fitting in with some of my thoughts lately. What do you think??

I respectfully disagree with you Jeff... and that's what makes this SO much different than the circle jerking church.

How many times have you disagreed with me, expressed it, us carry it over to an email conversation or phone conversation AND still not agree. Neither of us felt as if we had to leave or change or become something different for the other to accept or approve or fit in. It wasn't always fun, and at times this experience has been frustrating but I don't feel I would have ever received as much rope or grace or whatever you want to call it in the church. With all that I have expressed online I would have been eventually kicked out of my church, not allowed to teach any longer, etc. Now that's the bullshit in the church. The church doesn't envelope free-thinkers - it usually squashes them.

At a youth pastors retreat years ago, the speaker said something that is SO true (and SO scary)... he said that as pastors we couldn't afford to have a faith crisis b/c that could effect our jobs and incomes. The context was one of encouragement that this was one of the stresses of the job i.e. negotiation of our faith while leading others in negotiating their own.

This is such a trap... a damned if you do damned if you don't scenario. I felt I had to eventually leave the circle jerk church b/c all it was doing was propping up my weak faith. It wasn't making me stronger, it was making me weaker. Living life without the training wheels of the church has made me more balanced, more spiritually focused, more "evangelical" (in genuinely caring for hurting people sense) and honestly more truthful in my life and dealings with others.

I don't feel that the people I have met online are the church in reverse... they are the church "moving forward".... to borrow a phrase. Trademark anyone??

PING Back

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 22:44:00 +0000

My good friends over at PING invited me on their show this week to expound on my previous post on "Moving Forward". Jump on over there and listen to Erik, Sharon, the PING crowd and I elaborate on all of our brilliant ideas. We are impressive!!

PING HERE!

Moving Forward

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:11:00 +0000

That's my theme for 2008.

Moving Forward

I recently decided that in my personal life, I tend to look at the past as a bench mark for my future. I've determined that all that does is throttle me in the present... and leads me to missing out on good things in the now.

In regards to SCP, there have been many times over the past few months that I wasn't sure if I wanted to keep going. It's taken me a while to exactly know what to write as we enter 2008. Now that I have taken a few weeks off, I seem to have a clearer direction.

I think that this theme is highly important for SCP. I am constantly amazed at how many people still visit this website and the number of new people that are still discovering this place and finding it to be thought-provoking, encouraging and comforting.

Many, many people sit in church each and every week and feel completely alone for any number of reasons. They identify with this site. We need to keep this light burning.

You are a part of that.

Let's move forward together.

Life Beyond Death

noreply@blogger.com (Steve) — Wed, 26 Dec 2007 22:09:00 +0000

Being the difference in someone else's life, even in your death, is a precious and selfless act. Jason Ray and his family probably didn't realize what a difference they could make until Jason's tragic death.

I saw this piece on ESPN today and wanted to share it with you. It's powerful on so many levels. I hope you can take about ten minutes or so to watch it.

I have always felt that sharing my organs after my death was a very important decision and for that reason, I have made that choice for a number of years now. If you haven't signed a donor card or the back of your driver's license, consider that for a New Year resolution.