Systemics Forum

Physics • What is the thermodynamic entropy? Question about that, my c

2012-05-09T18:57:21+00:00

- What is the thermodynamic entropy? Conclusions on the question of -
(It was found from the approach to superconductivity)

§ takes a positive value, and the thermodynamic entropy is something?

Thermodynamic entropy

dS=dQ/T=dkWh/T

It has been defined in time, h1=0 the time at this time, as the time h2=1, T, considering the case takes a value closer to zero without limit 0,

⊿kWh=kWh2-kWh1=kW2[kW]·1[h]-0=kWh2[kWh],T=lim(T → 0)T[K]

So

∴ ⊿S=kW2[kWh]/lim(T → 0)T[K]

It is expressed as.

Given this time, and take the positive value of a certain kW2[kWh], can be a great value as long as the value of ⊿S is not.

In other words ... Can you think is the entropy change, and approaches infinity?

That approaches infinity the entropy change, I'll become the change is that the change is very likely to occur?

　
　That is, I think this is the result of an expression, and if they are really mean the superconductivity phenomenon.

　There are in the third law of thermodynamics, "in accordance with approaches absolute zero, the entropy of the perfect crystal is reduced gradually, becomes zero and". I think that is (a certain ductility, and malleability) of metal is not a good conductor for the perfect crystal, and can happen if there is actually such a result.

　Meaning of this expression represents the value of entropy change in temperatures close to absolute zero, as long as possible rather than become a large value. In other words, in as close as possible to the absolute zero temperature is that and see that the amount of power relative to work, it becomes easier to obtain as possible.

　In other words, you are considered nothing more than that means that the thing in the world of cryogenic, causing the phenomenon of superconductivity is possible.

　This temperature is, as it approaches the absolute zero, thermodynamic entropy is it that increase without limit, but is a fact of life, the chemical reaction, is a fact as the temperature drops, also becoming difficult to place.

　It is the thermal motion of the molecule, as the temperature decreases, which is to become smaller. But, would not mean that as the temperature drops, the physical reaction, such as the movement of the charges that will be very likely to occur?

　It is, perhaps, or not considered for the thermal motion of the molecule, has been the resistance of the reaction, such as physical movement of the charges. And thermodynamic entropy, the value of a constant divided by the absolute temperature variation of heat (or, divided by the absolute value of the constant changes in the amount of power), and considering that it is a state quantity, in the world of ultra-high temperature, because thermal motion of molecules becomes very intense, resistance becomes very large, physical reaction, such as electron transfer does not occur almost, that neglecting the only chemical reaction, at a temperature in the middle, the reaction is physical and chemical reactions, but much closer to the equilibrium state at constant temperature, in the world of absolute zero of ultra-low temperature, because thermal motion of molecules, almost no resistance, eliminating the most physical, such as electron transfer possible and that means that the reaction is likely to occur.

　In addition, the current flows through the metal, for by electron transfer, not a little energy due to friction occurs, it will generate a lot of heat. Also, when the reaction occurs, such as physical movement of charge is also true that you want as the basis of magnetic force will always occur.

　Here, the thermodynamic entropy is positive and think about is the amount that represents state equilibrium temperature of a chemical reaction and physical reaction,

　
Positive and thermodynamic entropy is the amount of state representing the likelihood of chemical reaction and physical reaction, is an amount that represents the degree of equilibrium state of the reaction of the two.

Chemical reaction only happens if you take a positive entropy value is greater without limit, does not occur only physical reaction, on the contrary, if you take a positive entropy value is small as possible. Possible that if you take the value of the intermediate, that can happen both.

Given would say all these things, the chemical reaction and physical reaction is the reaction of the counter, to the reaction, the equilibrium condition exists due to the absolute temperature.
In the world of ultra-high temperature, the reaction between the substance is the ultimate form of chemical reaction, causing a continuous nuclear fusion, light energy is enormous, it will be released in succession. In the world of ultra-low temperature, as a superconductor in the form of the ultimate physical reaction, whether it obtained a very large, continuous electrical energy, I think.

Previously, the definition of the entropy formula

⊿S=⊿Q/T=⊿kWh/T

Have been thinking about if you take is the denominator of the right-hand side of the two, T the absolute temperature [K], the limiting value, is a molecule, the limiting value is (change in the amount of power) ⊿kWh and the (change in heat)⊿Q What will we must also consider if you take?

However, the definition of the entropy formula

⊿S=⊿Q/T=⊿kWh/T

Have been thinking about if it is the denominator of the right-hand side of the two, the absolute temperature T[K] that takes a limiting value, the numerator of the fraction ⊿Q (the thermal change) and,
⊿kWh ( the amount of power change )
What will we must also consider if you take the extreme values?

However, the definition of the entropy formula

⊿S=⊿Q/T=⊿kWh/T

Before considering the limit of the numerator of the fraction of, the right-hand side of the two, I would like to think about the nature of the substance. Such as, for example, can also, that there is a substance and convey the heat well or difficult to convey the heat , that there is a good conductor and nonconductor of electricity.

　Easy flow of electricity, a typical material, heat also easy to tell well, is a liquid of molecules with metal, carbon, and the polarity. Semiconductor is a substance as the temperature is raised, electrified nature comes out.

Substance without flowing electricity, heat is also hard to tell, such as Styrofoam and (plastic), and the like other than carbon crystals and powder of pure substances, paper,, high molecular weight polymer.

Usually think, what electricity does not flow, and the like gaseous substances, such as glass and ceramics heat is easily transmitted.

　These properties and the relationship between entropy,　It is going to be very important　we consider in order to describe the value of numerator of the fraction of the right-hand side of the two entropy definition.
In other words, the idea being that you need to consider the matter and substance is that easy to convey the energy, is difficult to convey the energy substance, It is a very important thing when to discuss the thermodynamic entropy.

　It is, thermodynamic entropy, in the matter and difficult to convey substance and easy to convey the energy of heat and electricity is because from the definition formula of entropy, it is understood that by its physical properties, that takes a value clearly different.
And, say the value of the numerator of the fraction of the expression and definition of entropy is the value depends on the nature of the substance of them.

　In addition, in the third law of thermodynamics, "in accordance with approaches absolute zero, the entropy of the perfect crystal is gradually decreased. Becomes zero" and have, with respect to perfect crystal, the absolute value of entropy can be defined.

　
　However, there are some imperfections with respect to substance this law is observed and can not be applied. This is, perhaps, in the definition formula of entropy, in the material value of the numerator of the fraction is less original, there is almost no change in the amount of power and the thermal change, that is, say, that the material very stable energetically would not it? And, I think it is.

　In other words, think of For (substances such as　metal convey energy well ), and law that I have described so far can be applied also in the substance of incompleteness.

　It is in imperfection of this material that, in substance convey good energy, and chemical reaction with the physical reaction can be said that it is the opposite reaction, thermodynamic entropy is positive, the physical reaction　and the chemical reaction occurs that the degree of state of matter as the amount of and the degree happens, the physical reaction is likely to occur the greater the positive thermodynamic entropy, the chemical reaction occurs becomes smaller think can be said that it becomes easy.

It is in imperfection of this material that, in substance is easy to convey the energy, and chemical reaction with the physical reaction can be said that it is the opposite reaction,Positive thermodynamic entropy is a fact that shows that as the amount of state of matter and the degree of physical reaction occurs, the degree of chemical reactions occur,Think can be said of physical reaction often occurs with larger positive thermodynamic entropy, chemical reactions that occur often becomes smaller.

　Then, the limit of thermodynamic entropy that (infinity, or zero), the reaction of the counter electrode of each reaction (chemical reaction and physical), the energy of the maximum obtained　or released considered means, I think so.

　And considering variation of heat, changes in the amount of power is the product of the time change of the value of the energy in the range of substance-specific, so to speak, that is, there is a change in the amount of substance-specific work, and take a constant value, this seems to be revitalizing for the law of entropy.

§ Entropy takes a value of something negative?

Let us consider the entropy then takes the value of the negative.

In thermodynamics, there is a convention if there is a release of energy from the interior of the system to ambient, it represents a negative value, the case was added to the inside of the system work or from the periphery of the system.

Here, trying to bring up the formula that the definition of entropy.

⊿S=⊿Q[J]/T[K]=⊿kWh[kWh]/T[K]

That the definition of entropy in this formula, it takes a negative value, with respect to absolute temperature is to not become so negative, if only for changes in the amount of heat and power change is negative, may be considered.

I think for this case, as well as the entropy can be positive, think. However, it is considered negative for the case of when to release of energy around the system, it is work if you have made to the interior of the system or from the periphery of the system entropy. Then, around the system and for energy release, even for negative entropy from the surroundings receive work will depend on the high and low temperature.

In other words, the small state is negative entropy, when a very high temperature, chemical changes in the state means that release energy to the periphery of the system is small, or work, added to the inside of the system from outside the system is small is. The value of entropy at this time to take a small value for the negative direction.

On the contrary, the state with a large negative entropy, when the temperature is very low, that is, physical reaction, or job status, a large energy release to the environment of the system, added to the inside from the periphery of the system is greater is. At this time, the value of the negative entropy takes a large negative value.

However, the physical reaction or chemical reaction like this from that fact will not happen, the entropy is negative, and that is the value representing the state in fact impossible, it is because to be said that the entropy is I would not.

If the entropy takes a negative value of the street if there is a three.

One is the magnitude of the entropy and the case itself takes a negative value, and another, with the magnitude of the positive entropy, that is, if you work from the periphery to the interior of the system, yet another 3 is as if there is a release of energy to the surrounding of the system.

In addition, there are three entropy also takes a positive value.

One is if the magnitude of the entropy itself takes a positive value, and another, and if the magnitude of the positive entropy of that, to work from the inside of the system to ambient, from ambient to the interior of the system If there is a flow of energy, and another, with the magnitude of the negative entropy, that is, if you had to work for the internal periphery of the system, the internal energy of the system further to ambient If you want to release is as of three.

Entropy is considered in the normal reaction, and always takes only positive values.
It can be thought of as the nature of the substance, the substance, because there is a mass always, are not allowed, and so may ignore its mass, in the normal reaction is always, entropy, and take a positive value will it correct . In addition, it is considered to be better thought is the magnitude of the entropy, since it is dependent on the size of the internal energy with substance, be sure to take a positive value.

Trying to entropy in this case, because the entropy due to the internal energy of matter, here, and be referred to as internal entropy.

To be in and out from the system with the substance, the entropy is considered to be internal. However, the magnitude has a value of negative internal entropy is not considered originally.

And, in this case, if you take the entropy is negative, and if positive internal entropy of a substance, to work for from the periphery of the system to the inside, when you release the energy from the interior of the system against the ambient and that there are only two ways.

Similarly, if you take the entropy is positive, if and when entropy internal positive material, was the work of the for-to-ambient from the inside of the system, the energy to flow into the interior of the system from the periphery of the system be considered in two ways.

About this, let us pondering the idea.

First, if the entropy takes a negative value, that is, for if and when positive internal entropy of a substance, to work against the inside from the periphery of the system, to the release of energy from the interior of the system against the ambient , in the convention of thermodynamics, since it is negative and it has been established, this means that some force, and to take from the outside of the system if, in the release of energy in the form of heat to the periphery of the system is considered, the energy seems to be some force in this case, would not be whether you mean the energy of the magnetic force.

Also, if the entropy takes a positive value, and if a substance having a positive internal entropy, for the system to ambient, expansion due to heat energy to work for the inside of the system from the periphery of the system, believe that means that the magnetic energy may be added.

And the energy of the magnetic repulsive force, if very different if the same poles, and suction power.
In other words, because the repulsive force works between the work if the same polarity, to become a work from the inside to the outside of the system, because the scope of work could be infinite, its value becomes positive on thermodynamics.
In addition, since the work is done if you work as a suction force between the opposite poles, then you will only be able to work a certain range, the value of that time, on the thermodynamics becomes negative.
It is also contemplated that in this case, the energy of the rest of the work, from the inside of the system to ambient, to be released in the form of thermal energy.

It usually Notice also that the heat also takes a positive value at your job. This is meant to imply that that is the value due to the mass of the material with.
In other words, it is also possible with the entropy of the substance, because it is a mass value is concerned, and he usually takes a positive value.

In addition, where the moving charge, even from the ability to magnetic field always think of energy and magnetic force, the relevance of the entropy is easily In addition, since the substance will actually have a charge called electrons and protons I think if you can.
And it is because it is possible, even within the material, electrons, so that the trajectory of the electron spin around while, also on the surface of the material, the magnetic field is present.

These assumptions and, considering in the light of the fact that the entropy of positive and negative, the magnitude of the entropy, because due to the internal energy of matter, always, and 0≦⊿S.
The positive entropy represents the entropy in the normal reaction of a substance, its value refers to the amount of energy generated in the normal reaction, negative entropy represents the entropy in the magnetic response is concerned, its value is , it is thought that shows the magnitude of the magnetic energy in the reaction.

And, from these conclusions, it is derived, and thermodynamic entropy, in the reaction of a substance in each temperature, reaches the conclusion that the state is an amount indicating the amount of energy as energy that can take out.

Statistics: Posted by Koichi Matsuo — Wed May 09, 2012 6:57 pm

Physics • Re: - What is the thermodynamic entropy?

2012-05-07T16:43:02+00:00

§ Entropy takes a value of something negative?

Let us consider the entropy then takes the value of the negative.

In thermodynamics, there is a convention if there is a release of energy from the interior of the system to ambient, it represents a negative value, the case was added to the inside of the system work or from the periphery of the system.

Here, trying to bring up the formula that the definition of entropy.

⊿S=⊿Q[J] /T [K] = ⊿ kWh [kWh] / T [K]

That the definition of entropy in this formula, it takes a negative value, with respect to absolute temperature is to not become so negative, if only for changes in the amount of heat and power change is negative, may be considered.

I think for this case, as well as the entropy can be positive, think. However, it is considered negative for the case of when to release of energy around the system, it is work if you have made to the interior of the system or from the periphery of the system entropy. Then, around the system and for energy release, even for negative entropy from the surroundings receive work will depend on the high and low temperature.

In other words, the small state is negative entropy, when a very high temperature, chemical changes in the state means that release energy to the periphery of the system is small, or work, added to the inside of the system from outside the system is small is. The value of entropy at this time to take a small value for the negative direction.

On the contrary, the state with a large negative entropy, when the temperature is very low, that is, physical reaction, or job status, a large energy release to the environment of the system, added to the inside from the periphery of the system is greater is. At this time, the value of the negative entropy takes a large negative value.

However, the physical reaction or chemical reaction like this from that fact will not happen, the entropy is negative, and that is the value representing the state in fact impossible, it is because to be said that the entropy is I would not.

If the entropy takes a negative value of the street if there is a three.

One is the magnitude of the entropy and the case itself takes a negative value, and another, with the magnitude of the positive entropy, that is, if you work from the periphery to the interior of the system, yet another 3 is as if there is a release of energy to the surrounding of the system.

In addition, there are three entropy also takes a positive value.

One is if the magnitude of the entropy itself takes a positive value, and another, and if the magnitude of the positive entropy of that, to work from the inside of the system to ambient, from ambient to the interior of the system If there is a flow of energy, and another, with the magnitude of the negative entropy, that is, if you had to work for the internal periphery of the system, the internal energy of the system further to ambient If you want to release is as of three.

Entropy is considered in the normal reaction, and always takes only positive values.
It can be thought of as the nature of the substance, the substance, because there is a mass always, are not allowed, and so may ignore its mass, in the normal reaction is always, entropy, and take a positive value will it correct . In addition, it is considered to be better thought is the magnitude of the entropy, since it is dependent on the size of the internal energy with substance, be sure to take a positive value.

Trying to entropy in this case, because the entropy due to the internal energy of matter, here, and be referred to as internal entropy.

To be in and out from the system with the substance, the entropy is considered to be internal. However, the magnitude has a value of negative internal entropy is not considered originally.

And, in this case, if you take the entropy is negative, and if positive internal entropy of a substance, to work for from the periphery of the system to the inside, when you release the energy from the interior of the system against the ambient and that there are only two ways.

Similarly, if you take the entropy is positive, if and when entropy internal positive material, was the work of the for-to-ambient from the inside of the system, the energy to flow into the interior of the system from the periphery of the system be considered in two ways.

About this, let us pondering the idea.

First, if the entropy takes a negative value, that is, for if and when positive internal entropy of a substance, to work against the inside from the periphery of the system, to the release of energy from the interior of the system against the ambient , in the convention of thermodynamics, since it is negative and it has been established, this means that some force, and to take from the outside of the system if, in the release of energy in the form of heat to the periphery of the system is considered, the energy seems to be some force in this case, would not be whether you mean the energy of the magnetic force.

Also, if the entropy takes a positive value, and if a substance having a positive internal entropy, for the system to ambient, expansion due to heat energy to work for the inside of the system from the periphery of the system, believe that means that the magnetic energy may be added.

And the energy of the magnetic repulsive force, if very different if the same poles, and suction power.
In other words, because the repulsive force works between the work if the same polarity, to become a work from the inside to the outside of the system, because the scope of work could be infinite, its value becomes positive on thermodynamics.
In addition, since the work is done if you work as a suction force between the opposite poles, then you will only be able to work a certain range, the value of that time, on the thermodynamics becomes negative.
It is also contemplated that in this case, the energy of the rest of the work, from the inside of the system to ambient, to be released in the form of thermal energy.

It usually Notice also that the heat also takes a positive value at your job. This is meant to imply that that is the value due to the mass of the material with.
In other words, it is also possible with the entropy of the substance, because it is a mass value is concerned, and he usually takes a positive value.

In addition, where the moving charge, even from the ability to magnetic field always think of energy and magnetic force, the relevance of the entropy is easily In addition, since the substance will actually have a charge called electrons and protons I think if you can.
And it is because it is possible, even within the material, electrons, so that the trajectory of the electron spin around while, also on the surface of the material, the magnetic field is present.

These assumptions and, considering in the light of the fact that the entropy of positive and negative, the magnitude of the entropy, because due to the internal energy of matter, always, and 0 ≦ ⊿S.
The positive entropy represents the entropy in the normal reaction of a substance, its value refers to the amount of energy generated in the normal reaction, negative entropy represents the entropy in the magnetic response is concerned, its value is , it is thought that shows the magnitude of the magnetic energy in the reaction.

And, from these conclusions, it is derived, and thermodynamic entropy, in the reaction of a substance in each temperature, reaches the conclusion that the state is an amount indicating the amount of energy as energy that can take out.

Statistics: Posted by Koichi Matsuo — Mon May 07, 2012 4:43 pm

Physics • - What is the thermodynamic entropy?

2012-05-01T19:33:46+00:00

Statistics: Posted by Koichi Matsuo — Tue May 01, 2012 7:33 pm

Meta Forum • How to use BBCodes

2012-03-01T07:45:59+00:00

Hewe are BBCodes that you can use in this forum. The list below indicates their sample usages and their effects. To enter these BBCodes just click the buttons above form. (01) - (11) are default BBCodes while (12) - (20) are added ones.

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(04) Blockquote

Code:: [quote="Nagai Toshiya"]Systemics Forum is a bulletin board for those who are interested in systemics (systems theory or system science).[/quote]

Nagai Toshiya wrote:
Systemics Forum is a bulletin board for those who are interested in systemics (systems theory or system science).

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Code:: Bertalanffy was concerned the ever-increasing specialization of science prevented scientists from mutual communication and asked for a theory of universal principles applying to systems in general [source][url=http://www.amazon.com/dp/0807604534/?tag=u-20/]General System Theory: Foundations, Development, Applications[/url] (page) 32 (author) Ludwig Von Bertalanffy[/source].

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(1,1)	(1,2)	(1,3)
(2,1)	(2,2)	(2,3)
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Statistics: Posted by Nagai Toshiya — Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:45 am

Meta Forum • Re: Welcome to Systemics Forum

2011-10-28T00:54:30+00:00

Hi Thaumas. Call me Toshiya.

Wonderist wrote:
I would like to make one suggestion which I think would be very helpful for a forum such as this one: One of the functions of a forum is to provide a way for a community of people to form, and currently, this forum is lacking any appropriate place for members to simply socialize and say, "Hello." I would suggest adding an 'Introductions' forum, and a 'General Conversation' forum, at the very least, just so that people who are interested in Systemics can meet and get to know each other and talk informally.

Thank you for good advice. I created a forum of Chat and a topic of Self-introduction.

Wonderist wrote:
I will be checking out your English articles over the next few days, and I will post some of my thoughts here, if you don't mind.

I welcome your post. Maybe Philosophy Forum would be appropriate. Create a topic such as "Wonderism" or "Foundationism".

Taking a Step Beyond Awe wrote:
Though wonder is an emotion, it plays a crucial role in the generation and gathering of knowledge. It is the impetus to learn. Without wonder, without curiosity, there would be no science. Wonderism is a philosophy strongly allied with science.

I agree with you. As Aristotle said, philosophy begins in wonder and so does science. As for this point, refer to "What does philosophy start from?"

Statistics: Posted by Nagai Toshiya — Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:54 am

Meta Forum • Re: Welcome to Systemics Forum

2011-10-27T06:46:46+00:00

Hello, Nagai Toshiya! May I call you Toshiya? I go by the name Thaumas Themelios, or Thaumas, or Tom for short.

For some reason your websites always seem to appear in my google searches in relation to the philosophy I'm working on, called 'wonderism', which I've adopted as my own personal philosophy. The word 'systemics' seems to have some sort of close relationship with another philosophy I'm also working on, called 'foundationism', which is intended to be a minimalist philosophy which could in theory be adopted by anyone, and which would attempt to promote non-violent resolution of conflict (through dialogue, rather than violence), and also to promote collaboration and cooperation between people who can agree to the minimal tenets of foundationism.

I was googling around just now and realized that you are working on a wiki-like website or two, Systemics System, and Systemics Wiki. I don't yet have a wiki for foundationism or wonderism, but it has been a major goal of mine to get something like that going. So, I was intrigued to read some of your articles more in-depth. And so I found this forum and decided to just introduce myself.

I must say that I'm very interested in what you are attempting to do. It seems to me to be very close to what I'm attempting to do, although my ideas are a bit more vague at this point. If you like, you can see some of my articles on 'wonderism' here: Wonderism - Atheist Nexus. I don't yet have anything substantial written on 'foundationism', but recent events have made me start to think more clearly about it, and I hope to write something coherent relatively soon.

I will be checking out your English articles over the next few days, and I will post some of my thoughts here, if you don't mind.

I am currently actively involved in the recent growing 'atheist movement' which has been going on for several years now, and I frequently participate in a forum dedicated to promoting rational thinking, called the Rational Response Squad, where I post as under the name 'natural'. If you browse the forums there, you will see several posts/comments by me.

I would like to make one suggestion which I think would be very helpful for a forum such as this one: One of the functions of a forum is to provide a way for a community of people to form, and currently, this forum is lacking any appropriate place for members to simply socialize and say, "Hello." I would suggest adding an 'Introductions' forum, and a 'General Conversation' forum, at the very least, just so that people who are interested in Systemics can meet and get to know each other and talk informally.

For example, I did not know where I should post this comment, and so I thought, "Hmm, there's no place to post my introduction. That's a missing feature. Ah ha! A missing feature is something that belongs in the Meta Forum!"

Anyways, it's nice to meet you and I'll be back to talk more with you soon.

Regards,

Thaumas aka Wonderist aka natural

Statistics: Posted by Wonderist — Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:46 am

Philosophy • René Descartes

2011-07-06T07:46:57+00:00

A topic about René Descartes, a French philosopher, mathematician and scientist (born in France on 1596-03-31 and died in Sweden on 1650-02-11).

Articles related to René Descartes

Statistics: Posted by Nagai Toshiya — Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:46 am

Public Policy • Re: Internet Democracy

2011-04-05T02:25:14+00:00

Hi Nagai-san,
I agree that super-proxies are sometimes non necessary.
If you have your party as proxy, your party can participate directly in making and voting laws.
In this case maybe a super-proxy is not needed.
But if you have a father who has two sons and he gets the delegation votes of his two sons and his wife and he wants to delegate to different super-proxies for health, education and so on.. then super-proxies are needed.
I think there are various different ideas about how to make the system work, here there are some links about discussions around.
Votorola
I-Democracy « Equality by lot
I suggest it would be good to have one single big discussion forum where everybody speaks and exchange opinions, instead of many small forums where two, three people speak only between them.
For any change and for any proposed system, it is important to gather a number of 20~30 people with strong interest.
Even the best system in the world would fail without much public support.

Matteo

Statistics: Posted by Matteo — Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:25 am

Public Policy • Re: Internet Democracy

2011-03-31T09:38:19+00:00

One of reasons why parties are more suitable for proxies than individuals is that the former scarcely　 abstain from voting. If some are sick, for example, other members of the party will vote as a party. Another is an individual expert might draft a new law or advocate a policy that is not compatible with the others of different area, while a party of various experts based on a unified policy can compile a coherent package of bills.

If a party can be a proxy, then its super-proxy is unnecessary. I propose a system that evaluates parties according to the number of delegating voters. Suppose 100000 voters register Party X as their proxy and 60000 of them directly voted on a bill, while 40000 abstained from voting. The Party X can cast only 40000 votes but it is ranked as a 100000-voter-party.

The value of a bill can also be calculated from the sum of delegated vote number of parties that agree to the bill. If only a bill that passes a threshold can come to a vote, then the arrangement of ID administrators is again unnecessary. Everything should be quantitatively determined and we must exclude the arbitrariness of ID administrators as much as possible to be fair. Of course, bureaucrats are necessary but we should not allow them to make a political judgment.

Statistics: Posted by Nagai Toshiya — Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:38 am

Public Policy • Re: Internet Democracy

2011-03-29T09:33:56+00:00

Dear Nagai Toshiya-san,
1) the idea of starting from local governments and then move up to regional and national government is a good one.
I think the approach can be used at all levels, but I agree that maybe it is easier to start at local level.
2) I agree that proxy and super-proxy users may not be individuals.
Major political parties, religion parties, research organizations and even private companies can have their own site and solicit delegation votes from anyone to propose their own agenda.
In fact, it should be possible to delegate different super-proxy users for each area of government.
My humble idea is that the main difference from proxy-users and super-proxy users should be that the first ones are still general users (a friend, a relative, someone that we know directly),
while super-proxy users should be real experts (economists, tax experts, political parties, religious parties) that most of the times are dedicated to one or few areas of the government.
For example, five or ten competent economists can be enough for formulating a good government plan for the national economy, but economists probably know nothing about national defense, so they should work only in the area of Economics, as super-users, but they should not work in the areas of defense (or Research, or talk about topics about Gay Marriage or abortion).
3) The role of ID administrators is necessary in order to do the day-by-day work of administration of the site.
New elections should be scheduled, if a new matter is brought forward, in which section shall be voted, in the section of Economics, in the section of Defense, how many votes are needed to pass a law? and how many to present a law?
4)As for political parties, I think that, if people will like the system of hybrid democracy, political parties will more or less disappear as the focus will be on solving practical problems, not on ideology, I guess.

But this is just my opinion.

I have invited other people to join the discussion

Matteo Martini
www.idemocrazia.it

Statistics: Posted by Matteo — Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:33 am

Public Policy • Re: Internet Democracy

2011-03-29T05:19:28+00:00

I read "iDemocracy Document" and let me comment on it.

Your goal is to "build an internet platform to empower the citizen and let them create a political and government program at national level", and you say, "The final goal of the platform is to create a political program for the government of the country."

This order, however, should be reversed. Introducing iDemocracy at national level is so risky that it will take long time to realize it. Practically it is easier to introduce iDemocracy to a small local government experimentally. If the experiment is successful, this movement will spread across the local governments until it is adopted at national level.

Project iDemocracy by Matteo Martini wrote:
[...] the system “I-Democracy” (“ID” from now on) is a virtual environment that allows any voter to directly (or by delegation to a “Proxy” or “Super Proxy” user) create a political program for each area of government (called “ID Section” from now on)

I agree that hybrid democracy where voters can optionally use proxy voters is superior to strictly direct democracy where voters have no choice but to vote directly. But I do not consider it necessary to confine the role of proxy users to individuals. If political parties that embrace specialists of all departments in them play the role of proxy users, the arrangement of ID Administrators that you propose would be unnecessary.

You seem not to trust political parties. To be sure the current parties are so few and so similar that they do not offer enough option to voters. Because under representative democracy the party /parties that fail to gain a majority has no power, the number of parties are limited (typically two) and all parties that are ambitious enough to gain power try to please everyone and get to resemble each other. Under hybrid democracy, where voters can vote directly, parties do not have to gain a majority. Many and different proxy parties will be created to attract voters.

Statistics: Posted by Nagai Toshiya — Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:19 am

Public Policy • Internet Democracy

2011-03-28T00:50:25+00:00

Hi all.

In my opinion, a system-nation can be defined as “democratic” if the actions taken within such system-nation are according to the will of the people who are part of such system.

A major problem of the current governments, including the so-called “democratic” ones, is that the actions of the government of a nation are not according to the will of the majority of the population of that nation: some of the laws that most of the people would like to see brought forward are not even discussed, while the government passes laws and does things that are not as from the will of the majority of the electorate.

This problem has different causes:

1) The voting person has no way to vote in the same election for different political stances of different parties, according to his own/her own positions according to each different topic. In other words, the American voter has no way to vote, for example, for the Democratic Party for foreign agenda positions, the Republican Party for financial-related positions and the Green Party other positions. The voting person has to choose one party and one candidate. Therefore, being unlikely that the voting person agrees with absolutely all the positions of any of the candidate/party involved in the elections, he/she will have to choose one of them, looking and the candidate/party that is more likely to be close to his/her opinions on few main issues. Being this the case, the candidates of any party will be able to easily write a more or less generic declaration of intents that will be offered as “political program” to the electorate, without precise engagements in any political area, in order to have later free hands to do what they want once elected

2) Most of the times, the average voter does not even have the time nor the knowledge to get informed on the past actions of the political parties and the candidates and the political program offered by the candidates. Therefore, most of the times the candidate elected is the one who does not necessarily have the best political program or is best fit for the job, but it is the candidate who has the best eloquence and TV appearance, regardless of his/her political positions.

3) In most nations, elections take place every 4 or 5 years, even if the voters are not satisfied with the performance or the political actions of the government, they will not be able (unless extreme things happens, like revolutions or impeachment) to change the people in the government before the next scheduled elections take place. In this way, the people in the government will not be immediately accountable for their actions in front of the people.

4) Often power lobbies can influence the actions of a government quite decisively so that the government will act more according to the economical and political pressure of such lobbies than according to the people who voted.

In most nations, choice is always limited to two or few major parties, in such case it is not at all impossible that the candidates of the parties agree behind the scenes to willingly limit the possible choices of the electorate regarding specific issues. For example, being one country with two major parties at war, if the elite of such country decides that such war has to be continued, may push both major parties to support it, even with few minor differences between the political positions of each party. In this case, even if a large part of the voters would like to stop the war, they will not find any major party representing them. Minor parties usually have extreme positions on issues not accepted by the majority of the electorate. In many countries it is theoretically possible to create new parties at national level, but there are many obstacles to practically becoming significant (legal loop-holes for the application for the elections in different counties, no access to the media, etc.). In conclusion, it is easy for the leaders of the two or three major parties of one nation to avoid giving options to the electorate about major topics if they all decide to do so and agree on this behind the scenes.

I would like to propose an internet-based system (“I-Democracy” system) which is intended to remove as much as possible the above problems and to change the way the voters can participate in the writing of a political program:

1) by allowing each voter to delegate his/her representation to one or more people in order to work on the writing of the political program above, with some sharp differences with the current representative democratic system that the delegation above a) can be retracted at any moment, b) is meant to be given to people known personally, c) can be subscribed at any moment by the voter for one or more voting therefore by-passing the delegation given and d) can be given to different people for different government areas (defense, economy, environment, education, research, etc.);

2) allowing the voter to directly propose and vote single laws or packages of laws (political programs)

By internet, it is possible today to create a system that allows the citizen-voter to directly participate in the creation of a political program for the government. In detail, the scope of the proposed internet system is that of a virtual environment where every voter, after getting registered, is able to propose and vote laws or packages of laws...

Read the rest at Project iDemocracy

Matteo Martini

Statistics: Posted by Matteo — Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:50 am

Meta Forum • About Systemics Wiki

2011-03-23T04:41:47+00:00

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Statistics: Posted by Nagai Toshiya — Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:41 am

Meta Forum • About Systemics System

2011-03-23T04:33:28+00:00

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Statistics: Posted by Nagai Toshiya — Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:33 am

Meta Forum • About Systemics Forum

2011-03-23T04:14:23+00:00

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Statistics: Posted by Nagai Toshiya — Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:14 am

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