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piknrol
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Joined: 09 Jan 2008
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Location: Pennsylvania
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 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: Beginner cheek puffing |
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| I have a beginner student who has been playing for a few months, he is in 4th grade. He is doing great, he has a very good tone. I've noticed that he puffs his cheeks slightly when he plays sometimes. What can I do to get him so stop? |
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trpt.hick
Rafael Méndez Forum Moderator
Joined: 16 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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That is pretty much normal, especially for younger kids. I wouldn't worry about it as long as it doesn't get too extreme. As he or she grows, the muscles will strengthen and the puffiness will go away. This might take 3-4 years for someone that age.
Dave Hickman |
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ejaime23
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: |
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While I never worked with someone that young, I do experience that problem in 6th graders all the time. I find it helpful not to address the cheeks, but to address firmness in the corners of their lips, careful for them not to force of course, but that usually takes care of it.
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mathgeek
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:22 am Post subject: |
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The puffy cheeks helps the young student push his corners towards the mp as he ascends. As his muscles develop, he won't need to rely on that and they will go away.
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piknrol
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks to all of you |
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sdgtpt
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't tried this.... but... I'm thinking...
Could he learn how to keep his cheeks from puffing by blowing air through a straw in water?
Ask him to make a bunch of air bubbles. Focus on tons of air bubbles in the water, but no cheek puffing allowed. |
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mathgeek
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:53 am Post subject: |
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sdgtpt:
Did you read the replies to the OP? Those who replied agreed unanomously (quite a feat here at TH) that it is not something that needs to be worried about. THe cheek puffing almost always takes care of it self. There is no need to come up with useless (albeit creative) exercises for something that will take care of itself.
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JakeUND
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: |
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I think he just made a suggestion to see what we thought. There's no need to bash someone for coming up with a suggestion meant to help, but I'm guessing you didn't mean it to come off in that way. I don't think it would be productive to use the water and straw thing that you came up with but it was a creative idea. Correct, consistent practice will very likely cure this with time. As muscles develop, air is used more efficiently, and the tongue is brought into play the problem should solve itself.
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sdgtpt
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Interesting responses, but I don't think that it is unreasonable for a student at any age to play his first notes without puffing his cheeks.
And for the teacher that is looking for a ways to teach a kid how to move a lot of air and focus it through an aperture.... maybe you have to think outside the box a little bit to encourage the development of a physical skill.
Or... you can just wait until it fixes itself. |
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creeva
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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I can say I still puff my cheeks a bit - after 16 years of playing - I think you need to address the problems this actually causes while playing more then the issue itself.
If it causes tonal or range issues or playing issues of any kind address it, if the player can work around it just fine I don't see the problem |
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mcamilleri
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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My first trumpet tutor (at age 7) said to stretch the cheeks out a bit. Also said to smile a bit to get higher notes. Took me about 25 years to recover from those gems or ill-informed teaching!
Michael
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mathgeek
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think he just made a suggestion to see what we thought. There's no need to bash someone for coming up with a suggestion meant to help, but I'm guessing you didn't mean it to come off in that way. |
Jake, I appreciate the effort here but, yes, I did mean to come off in this way for the very reason I am quoting next:
| Quote: | | My first trumpet tutor (at age 7) said to stretch the cheeks out a bit. Also said to smile a bit to get higher notes. Took me about 25 years to recover from those gems or ill-informed teaching! |
There is no reason to work at fixing something that occurs naturally, especially when 99 times out of 100 it fixes itself over time. There is a video of Roy Hargrove playing posted on the Jazz/Commercial subforum. If you watch, he has some cheek puffing going on each time he plays. Check out Arturo's face when he plays, he has pockets sometimes too!
I know anecdotal evidence does not prove the claim, but please don't try to fix something that may not even BE a problem. Especially if it requires a fix that doesn't involve playing the horn itself to fix.
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sdgtpt
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| mathgeek wrote: | | Quote: | | I think he just made a suggestion to see what we thought. There's no need to bash someone for coming up with a suggestion meant to help, but I'm guessing you didn't mean it to come off in that way. |
Jake, I appreciate the effort here but, yes, I did mean to come off in this way for the very reason I am quoting next:
| Quote: | | My first trumpet tutor (at age 7) said to stretch the cheeks out a bit. Also said to smile a bit to get higher notes. Took me about 25 years to recover from those gems or ill-informed teaching! |
There is no reason to work at fixing something that occurs naturally, especially when 99 times out of 100 it fixes itself over time. There is a video of Roy Hargrove playing posted on the Jazz/Commercial subforum. If you watch, he has some cheek puffing going on each time he plays. Check out Arturo's face when he plays, he has pockets sometimes too!
I know anecdotal evidence does not prove the claim, but please don't try to fix something that may not even BE a problem. Especially if it requires a fix that doesn't involve playing the horn itself to fix. |
It's not about FIXING problems, or reacting to problems. It's about setting the student up for success early on, to avoid problems later in their life.
A good teacher doesn't fix problems.... a good teacher puts a student on a path where he doesn't encounter fundamental problems. |
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JazzABCs
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: Beginner cheek puffing |
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Rather than telling my students not to puff their cheeks, I remind them to keep their mouth corners next to their teeth. Learned this from Doc Reinhardt 20+ years ago; it works!
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JakeUND
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| mathgeek wrote: | | Quote: | | I think he just made a suggestion to see what we thought. There's no need to bash someone for coming up with a suggestion meant to help, but I'm guessing you didn't mean it to come off in that way. |
Jake, I appreciate the effort here but, yes, I did mean to come off in this way for the very reason I am quoting next:
| Quote: | | My first trumpet tutor (at age 7) said to stretch the cheeks out a bit. Also said to smile a bit to get higher notes. Took me about 25 years to recover from those gems or ill-informed teaching! |
There is no reason to work at fixing something that occurs naturally, especially when 99 times out of 100 it fixes itself over time. There is a video of Roy Hargrove playing posted on the Jazz/Commercial subforum. If you watch, he has some cheek puffing going on each time he plays. Check out Arturo's face when he plays, he has pockets sometimes too!
I know anecdotal evidence does not prove the claim, but please don't try to fix something that may not even BE a problem. Especially if it requires a fix that doesn't involve playing the horn itself to fix. |
I too have experienced not so productive methods of teaching. I had a teacher that said for high notes you just "blow harder." Wow, that didn't do much good, but then again he was a woodwind major before becoming a high school educator. Great guy but just didn't understand trumpet playing mechanics. I definitely get where you are coming from though. I think that the air pockets aren't a huge deal in a beginner. It depends on the teaching method mostly. I think that it matters more later on. Right now, if I play in the upper register and let air escape into my cheeks, it's bad news. My cheek linings split from the air pressure. I've got to either keep my tongue sealed to my top teeth or I have to live with painful practice for days after. I have to get to class though so I'll talk to you later. Hope all of your days are going good.
Jake
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trpt.hick
Rafael Méndez Forum Moderator
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Young kids simply don't have the muscle strength to prevent their cheeks from puffing a bit. They usually CAN prevent them from becoming large balloons, but puffiness is the norm. Ever see a child play the tuba without puffing the cheeks? No, never. |
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mcamilleri
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I've got to either keep my tongue sealed to my top teeth or I have to live with painful practice for days after. |
Jake, that is one major way of controlling cheek puff. A high tongue arch uses the tongue pressed against the upper teeth from about the front molars all the way back. This seals the air off from the cheeks and stops them puffing.
It is not the only way of controlling cheek puff. You can use the buccinators (see http://face-and-emotion.com/dataface/expression/muscles.jsp for great info and animations). These are very strong muscles that are used in chewing to stop the cheeks from getting pushed out. Basically they are the 'firm corners' that people talk about.
If you use the buccinators properly then it doesn't matter what you do with the tongue - you can curl it back all the way to the back of the mouth and still play in any range.
One potential issue with using the tongue to control the cheek puff is you end up using the tongue to do several things at once - control cheek puff, articulate, and arch to regulate air flow with range. Sometimes it is just not possible to do all of these things well at the same time. This can be a particular problem if a player is also trying to maintain a large oral cavity as some methods suggest. You simply can't say 'aaahhh' with the tongue on the floor of the mouth if you have it arched up against the teeth to control cheek puff!
Both ways of controlling cheek puff can work, but how they interact with the various embouchure and tonguing setups varies, and the wrong combination can cause problems. IMO using the buccinators as the primary means of controlling cheek puff is the best way overall and works well with a wide range of embouchure and tonguing setups.
Michael
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