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Bob's right. Dragon Skin is better. I'm a sailor stationed with a Marine battalion. We're issued MTV's with ESAPI / SAPI plates. It weighs, no joke, about 4 times as much. We just recently got the MTV's, and already the entire Battalion is upset over it. It's big, ungainly, and rediculously - and dangerously - cumbersome. It comes in literally 14 parts. It's so-called "cutaway" function looks lie it won't work, and I don't want to have to find out. The tab for said function is somewhere on the bottom of the back of this thing, attached by velcro. Who, I want to know, thought of attaching something like that with velcro? And what about the danger of it catching on something and inadvertantly activating the cutaway feature? Play through this in your mind: a Marine is going through a house under fire, and then all of a sudden has to leap backwards and move around, or falls on something, and catches the rip-cord for the cutaway, doesn't notice in the heat of things, gets up, and in doing so, proceeds to remove his vest. And with it his armor, ammuntion, tourniquet, and all other gear not in his cargo pockets (which happens to be pretty much all of it); that will be a dead Marine, real quick. Dragon Skin is by far a better piece of gear. But hey, politics and penny-pinching win out in the end. Apparently, our lives are worth it.

Posted by: littlefishbigocean at July 31, 2008 08:59 PM

bob you're right, but you shall not post that. If insurgents read that and get their hands on dragon skin no one will be safe anylonger. Imagine insurgents or terrorists using appropriated Dragon Skin who will suddenly be virtually impervious to most coalition munitions -- even multiple 50 cal. rounds to the body at an airport!!!
So better cooperate with good officers.

Posted by: steve at July 12, 2008 04:24 AM

If by mushrooms you suggest I used something to cause myself to hallucinate while I was writing the aforementioned, then I'd call that some interesting speculation. Maybe, instead, what I wrote resembles how you, yourself, would start to think about the Pinnacle situation after using hallucinogenic mushrooms. In that case, I'd say keep on using -- the 'shrooms are giving you a valuable perspective.

Posted by: Barnacle Bob at July 8, 2008 05:33 PM

Hey Bob you should stop eating those mushrooms...

Posted by: tj at July 7, 2008 07:36 AM

I believe a good officer should be prepared to lie, cheat and steal at all times. Neal, unfortunately you are up against a lot of "good" officers.

I hope you do beat the hell out of them because you make the preeminent body-armor in the world.

But do try to forgive said U.S. officers for being "good" as I have defined it -- they are only doing so because they are ordered to do so.

The fear is that we'll end up fighting insurgents or terrorists using appropriated Dragon Skin who will suddenly be virtually impervious to most coalition munitions -- even multiple 50 cal. rounds to the body.

Everybody knows that our Generals, Contractors and SOCOM guys wear the DragonSkin while current misinformation suggests that this armor is subpar.

But in promoting this dynamic, the U.S. gets the best of both worlds:
1. Top protection for our command personnel and guys in the field who have little in the way of backup to call.
2. And enemy disinterest in obtaining Dragon Skin for their own use.

I know its a kick in the nuts for a company -- Pinnacle -- that is just trying to provide the best protection for our people in harms way.

But Neal, the psychological hardship you are enduring in this matter is a great national service. Others recognize this and your company will benefit magnficently in the years to come.

Posted by: Barnacle Bob at July 7, 2008 01:13 AM

Can anyone now seriously doubt the need for independent testing to clear this up?

Posted by: wembley at July 6, 2008 04:02 PM

To sit here and say the Government never lied is "Insane" and that the best equipment has been fielded is BS. There are hundreds if not thousands of cases where our troops have gone into harms way with faulty or substandard gear. 60 minutes has done numerous stories over the years of millions and billions of dollars wasted on crap the military said it needed and it couldn't get to work! Off the top of my head, the "Sgt York" comes to mind !!!
Any test can be "Rigged" to make a product pass or fail depending on what the tester wants the outcome to be.
In my humble opinion it came down to a the "Good Old Boy" system... Pinnacle is not in the "In Crowd" and suffered !!!

Posted by: BAR at July 3, 2008 05:46 AM

as a DoD scientist who has worked several programs, no Test Engineer would ever falsify reports those guys are the pinnacle of 'objective' in their research, if they say Pinnacle failed, then it failed. Neal is a dick, as someone else said, pulling a very "boeing-like" stunt to try to ram his shit down the DoD's throat.

Posted by: Britt at July 3, 2008 04:19 AM

Brad is right. That is ultimately the problem. I find it absolutely impossible to have any sympathy for Murray Neal or Pinnacle. They have taken an incredibly confrontational approach to push their snake oil, and the DOD is understandably unwilling to work with these guys.

Here's the thing, we know the Dragon Skin has problems. We know it came apart in the heat. We know it is also heavy as hell. It may or may not provide an increase in protection, but any increase is accompanied by an increase in weight.

Neal tried to publically pressure the Army into buying his crap. Now he wants us to believe the test results were forged. Lawyers call people like him "professional litigants".

Posted by: Brian at July 2, 2008 10:29 AM

The DOD doesn't discredit technology; if anything, they would gladly buy 30,000 vests for 30 million as they would 30,000 vests for 10 million.

The Pinnacle and Dragon Skin armors appear to be promising technology, but they are not ready for deployment. Armor must not only stop bullets, it must survive the packaging. Dragon Skin doesn't.

And it is damn stupid to insult your customers which Dragon Skin DID. How happy are the DOD project managers? They are either incompetent or corrupt, if you believe Dragon Skin.

Posted by: Brad at July 2, 2008 12:10 AM

Such a mess....
All I know is when it comes to military contracts it is all about the money.
The fact that we are still talking about this, years later, shows that there are companies who are acting very "Boeing" like and laying out the green paper carpet.
This happens all the time.
But this situation seems a bit different.
The money involved here is not tilting the military to chose one manufacturer over another, but to actually try and discredit a technology.
After all of the reviews, test, and articles I STILL do not know how Dragon Skin really performs or who to believe.
Considering the importance of the question, it is amazing that it still has not clearly been answered...

Posted by: Dennis at July 1, 2008 09:01 PM

"You'll remember that a year ago the Air Force debarred Pinnacle after it found that the company had pumped up the ballistic capabilities of its SOV 2000 armor claiming it was Level III compliant when it wasn't."

That's interesting. Here and other places I never heard that. Where did you get that 'new' information from ???

The issue reported with the USAF revocation was that Pinnacle labelled them as NIJ level III before they received the paperwork, (but after the tests were completed and they knew the results, a pass), confirming certification. They were tested and passed several months previously but the NIJ were incredibly slow processing the paperwork.

Even the link you provided says that. Pinnacle has their issues, but why would you say "pumped up the ballistic capabilities" when, in fact, it did pass NIJ level III

Posted by: marrandy at July 1, 2008 08:46 PM

I think that it is likely Pinnacle ruffled some feathers and pushed until the boot came down. It's how and why the Air Force debarred Pinnacle that is suspect. Regardless of the capabilities of the product, if the officials involved fabricated or deluded results for their own purposes or opinions then there must be some justice for Dean here. Even is it just means reversing the debarment giving soldiers the option to wear a preferred brand of certified equipment.

Posted by: AJG at July 1, 2008 05:01 PM

Seems to me that the Army does not like Pinnacle because of it's publicity stunts and calling them out on not giving the best armor they could. We all know here there is a factor of money as well as how good a product is when it comes to replacing something but Pinnacle went public and made the army look bad. Weather or not they are playing games here (Either side) is hard to tell, but I am pretty sure that at least half the problems Pinnacle has is because they made the DOD look bad.

Posted by: The Cenobyte at July 1, 2008 04:22 PM

More whining from Pinnacle. Stopping power, multi hit, fragmentation, ballistic threats, durability, weight, fit/comfort/balance, mass production. Just because you have the best in one category does not justify your product. Dragon Skin, fails in more of these than it would win, even if it passed Gov's durability or penetration tests. IOTV and Ceradyne have the market locked up, and one must have something much better in many categories for the DoD to change. Better doesn't cut it.

BTW-Pinnacle is on another marketing blitz with their so called Level 5 XSAPI vests.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKnfHhRl7U0

Who knows how much that thing weighs, even if it works as advertised, which I doubt. I am quite sure Ceradyne will win the XSAPI contracts.

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Go get ´em, Neal. This gonna be long hard battle.

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