wedding industry = out.of.control.

there are definitely some cosmetic things i'd accept (for free!) as a bridesmaid gift, but there are others that would get an automatic no from me.

on the whole, it's nice to give your closest girlfriends something they'll appreciate. i'd much rather have a facial than some tacky earrings or an engraved picture frame. on the other hand, when it's like, mandated, you're just being a control freak and a shitty friend. spray tanning everyone so they are exactly the same shade?! wtf? are they going to be dressed as oompa loompas?

I thought a bridesmaid was one of your closest friends, whom you love, and who you want to have standing next to you on the most important day of your life. What difference does it make if she is not air-brush perfect. She is perfect already simply because you love her and she has always been there for you.

I appreciate the thought behind a thank you gift or a token to remember the day by, but this is just insulting. By offering botox or some other "beauty enhancement" to your bridesmaid you are very subtly telling her she is not good enough. What a terrible way to say thank you! Why not just attach the following thank you note to the plastic surgeon's business card:

"Thanks for being in my wedding and sharing my day with me. Here is this semi-surgical procedure to make you feel better about yourself. And, if you are still single, hopefully help you snag a man soon. love and kisses! ~ me"

well, this is just lovely...

I have already been avoiding getting to planning my wedding for almost a year now and these stories just keep annoying me. I am about one story away from eloping.

I am getting married in October and I did not feel you were insulting my wedding, Jessica. No worries!

I am getting married in October and I did not feel you were insulting my wedding, Jessica. No worries!

If marriage involves injecting poison into my face, bleach, and cutting up my flesh...feel free to count me out.

Seriously?

Who are these women? I mean seriously. This is a joke right? Like all those fabled "women who have abortions for fun." This CANNOT be a real trend. Just a few deranged people who happen to be completely narcissistic.

FWIW, eloping is a fantastic and fun way to get married. We borrowed witness from the wedding a head of us, were married by a nice female JOP, and split a delicious kosher hot dog. $12.50 not including gas.

My sister was getting all of us shawls. I want a boob job instead! Just kidding...this is really revolting. "You're not pretty enough to stand next to me an in ugly dress." WTF!?

I don't understand when women want attention and want to look pretty and complain it on "Patriarchy".
Nobody is holding a gun to their head and telling them to "look pretty" or have a plastic surgery. If you don't want to do it, don't do it. Why blame somebody else for it?

"FWIW, eloping is a fantastic and fun way to get married. We borrowed witness from the wedding a head of us, were married by a nice female JOP, and split a delicious kosher hot dog. $12.50 not including gas."

Make that hot dog a falafel pocket instead, and that sounds like my kind of wedding!

The WIC is CRAZY, but I can understand how people can easily get sucked in. Maybe now that the economy is going to shit more people will have to resist it.

Holy shit.

If someone asked me to get a boob job just to be their bridesmaid . . . I would no longer be their bridesmaid.

Did I just read a request for breast "enhancement" for bridesmaids? Wow. Speechless.

First, I am extremely leary of discount plastic surgery. I wouldn't, even I *wanted* a breast enhancement, go to a doctor who offered a "2 for 1" deal.
Second, in a culture where weddings aren't seen as succesful unless the bride is a fairytale princess and the event tops everyone else's in terms of oppulance...I can see how "plastic surgery" would become the new Gift of Oppulance. It's simply the next exaggerated step in an increasingly rediculous process.

The bit about the spray on tan is already too far above the line. It's not my obligation to dye myself to match the bride.

I have to agree with Kristen. I can't possibly believe this is actually a trend. Unless it's in some parallel universe...the one where Carrie and Charlotte and Miranda and Samantha live. (Not dissing NYC at all..the story just reminds me of something I'd see on Sex and the City)

If my bridesmaids do not submit to asshole-bleaching the morning of the ceremony, they're out of the wedding.

"But for every accommodating pal, there's another who feels going under the knife is beyond the duty of bridesmaid."

No. Having plastic surgery does not make you "an accommodating pal", wearing a color that doesn't suit you because it's the wedding theme does. Having plastic surgery at the bride's request means that you either wanted it in the first place and are welcoming the request as an excuse to do it, or that you're some kind miserable pushover. Props to the women who declined, and I hope they told their bride-friend to shove that scalpel up her ass.

So they did the 4 for 2 deal so they can fill out their dresses? Because an intrusive procedure is something to take lightly to prep for an event?

My wedding did cost a little more than 12.50. I believe it was in the $200 range after tip...One thing I like is good food, so dinner cost more (party of 6 at nice restaurant).

And I got sex toys for my friends. It was a "passions party", so I guess we did invest in some artificial penises...

I don't know if this is a trend, or just some outliers, but creepy nonetheless.

The only reason I'd want to get married is so I could give my future in-laws a dowry. I think it would be cute to give them some Monopoly money and maybe a few small figurines of livestock and some chocolate gold coins.

By the way, is there a trick to getting rid of those obnoxious ads that cover up what you're trying to read?

Yet another reason why we should do away with the institution of marriage.

hello tampon, I downloaded https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/10
for firefox. You can google an ad block for explorer if that's what you use.

What a fantastic way to make your bridesmaids feel warm and happy about your wedding: "Hey, um, Michelle, you know how your nose is a little big? Yeah, did you ever think about fixing that? Because you know, you'd look A LOT better in the wedding photos without that honker. What? What did I say?"

I have heard some crazy stories. One of my friends was kicked out of a wedding she was in because she was pregnant. Another friend I have had to pay to take tango lessons because the bride wanted the bridal party dance to be a tango in unison. I never quite got all of that I was worried about expecting too much from my bridesmaids and although they wore matching dresses that was about all I asked them to specifically do. I hate what the wedding industry has become when honestly 90% of the guests at the wedding forget what they're there for faster than you can say open bar and are just at another party where someonen's in a really fancy dress. My husband and I didnt do a lot of those traditions and our wedding was way less stressful because of it.

My opinion is a lot of people who treat their wedding like this are probably getting married for the wrong reasons or have a really horrible view of what a marriage (or just committed relationship in general) is.

There are plenty of couples that dont get married, or can't get married who have amazing relationships and that should be the importance

RiotGrrl-

A passions party is a great idea! It's fun and will make a girl feel good about herself without injections or stitches. I'll have to keep that in mind if and when I ever see the day.

teacherwoman, no offense and not that SATC isn't often ridiculous and glorifying consumerism and stupid gender bullshit but on this front i'm going to stick up for carrie, et al. and say that those fictional women cared too much about each other to ask them to do something crazy like get plastic surgery as a bridesmaid requirement. really, the friendships are the best thing to take away from that show.

anyway, this all makes the really awful highlighter pink curtain material dress i wore for a friend look pretty awesome by comparison. i WILL wear an ugly dress for someone i love. i will NOT get surgery.

Mark, maybe when you've spent the most vulnerable years of your life constantly -- and I do mean constantly -- being slapped with images of unattainable "beauty" and "sexiness," and been actively targeted by advertisers intent upon convincing you that every single detail of your body, from your toes to your shoulders to your calves to your eyebrows to your neck, could use improvement, and that you're too fat and too hairy and too short and ugly as shit, that you need to get colored contacts and highlight your hair, that your breasts are the wrong size and your ass is the wrong shape, and that it's possible your skin is a color that just can never, ever be pretty, and that meanwhile you're probably scaring people away by being too loud or too quiet or too smart or by not smiling enough, and that if you don't fix all of these things about yourself RIGHT AWAY you'll never have a boyfriend or get married or have the friends you want or the job you want or the life you want or be worth anything to anyone ever, you'll have some perspective on the issue. Otherwise you should probably refrain from commenting.

A big AMEN to Misspelled...you took the words right out of my mouth. Now, let me add some more for Mark's benefit:

It's like this--like Misspelled says, women are subject from birth to this mentality that if they aren't beautiful, they are worthless.

Changing that way of thinking, when everything and everyone around you reinforces it, takes an incredible amount of strength. Not everyone has it--or sometimes, don't even realize they have it in them to resist.

Because resisting means going against everything you know, everything you've been taught--about beauty, men, and love being inseperable from your own self-worth.

So why do we blame the patriarchy? Because it's to blame, that's why. Simple enough to understand, I would think.

Now that we've blamed, I'm going to educate myself further and encourage other women to do the same.

Botox: Because nothing says "Happiest day of your life" like looking like you had a massive stroke.

The diamond might be forever, but the vacant stare of a poisoned face can last just as long with our new botox licensed photographers!

Want a honeymoon your groom won't ever forget? Give him hard plastic boobs on your wedding night! Sure they won't feel or look natural, but they are big as all hell.

/That having been said, if I could afford it (and I wasn't terrified of the pain) I would get micro-lipo. But for me, not anyone else.

To piggyback on Misspelled's comment...

Women are taught, from birth, that our WORTH has everything to do with our looks. We are valued only as wank-material (or self-sacrificing mothers). AND we are taught that unless we are able to "snag" a man (because no man would willingly commit to a mere woman), we are failures. Mix it all together, and this "trend" is what you get.

Misspelled - nicely, nicely put.

Yeah, when and if I get married, my only bridesmaids will be my two sisters, and for gifts I'm thinking a group spa day. I just informed one of the sisters (who's twelve, 7.5 years younger than me) that she's not getting any Botox when I get married.
My cousin was once a bridesmaid for a woman she calls 'the Bridezilla.' Sounds like something she'd've done. She did get mad at my cousin for not having her hair done right or something.

Another piggyback on Misspelled's comments:

Women can be just as patriarchal as men, they can believe that men are somehow better than women, they can believe all the patriarchal stereotypes about women - women can be complicit in patriarchal constructions of society.

In matters of gender roles and ideals of beauty, women's ideas are shaped & influenced by patriarchal ideas.

Patriarchal ideas are not exclusive to men, but that doesn't make them any less patriarchal.

First off I'm going to apologize to those who've had breast implants or really expensive/foofy weddings. I'm 28, thin, curvy with NO boobs. I've had plenty of boyfriends and I'm currently in a serious relationship with a guy for 3 1/2 years. I've never had the urge to go through ELECTIVE SURGERY to have someone cut my tits and insert foreign objects into them. Let's not forget the pain and augmentation involved - look forward to this over the years! I also can't stand the idea of a traditional wedding - and I was brought up Catholic. Why are women walked down the aisle by fathers to be given to the new husbands? Because women used to be (and at times today still are) property of males and could not be seen without the presence of a male. They were then 'given away'. Don't forget about the doweries etc. The wedding 'traditons' run deeper and farther back than you think. I don't know if I'll get married but I do know that I can live with this particular guy and not kill him. In fact I love him. IF we do in fact want to get married, it's no excuse to put my friends through hell and back for a ridiculous event!

I'd also like to add on to what Misspelled and everyone else said. You're living in a fucking fantasy if you think we don't live in a patriarchy. Not only are women conditioned to believe that we're worthless if we don't have perfect measurements, perfect skin, perfect (read: white) hair, boys are also conditioned from a young age that women are supposed to look a certain way and they grow into men who continue to help put this pressure on women. I can't tell you the number of times I've heard grown men talking about how ugly a chick is, how big her gut is, how her boobs are too small, how she's too fat, just because she doesn't fit some narrow ideal of what women are supposed to look like. If she doesn't fit that standard, then she's just "pissed because she's ugly/fat." If she does, she just needs to be quiet, because she's just there for sexual gratification. Additionally, the current beauty standard is something that for a few people comes naturally, but most people don't have the genetics that allow them to be tall and incredibly thin; have gigantic boobs; unblemished, hairless skin and, you know, white ancestry. So maybe before you come to a feminist website and tell us (using nonsensical grammar, no less) that we shouldn't be blaming anyone else for what we go through, you should educate yourself a tad about the world you live in.

I don't know if I would attribute any of this to cultural concepts of beauty or sexism. I'm obviously a sexist to some people and the last thing I would ever want to see on a woman is some plastic surgery or breast augmentation. I think the social dynamic at play is some people fit into a "plastic surgery" culture (like in "Escape from LA") and some do not.

Notice the language of the article? "a well-earned squirt between the eyes"? They're injections of botulism toxin! Poisoned needles in the face!

Logrus, you made me chuckle.

I have NEVER understood even why brides pick ugly dresses for their bridesmaid. I wouldn't even subject my friends to THAT, let alone telling them nonchalantly that they aren't beautiful. Ridiculous.

One of the few sour notes in the show My Fabulous Gay Wedding was the gift, to one of the pairs of grooms, of botox injections. It'd have been worse if they'd offered it to one of the pairs of brides instead, but I still object on general principle. :/

ShifterCat: "It'd have been worse if they'd offered it to one of the pairs of brides instead"

Why would it have been worse. It's somehow less bad to imply that a man is inadequate than it is to imply this of a woman?

People's feelings should be considered as equal regardless of gender sexuality. Am I wrong about this?

Well, now, hold on. RE: Misspelled, SarahMC, et al.--I grew up in the same society you did, and I don't think all my worth is in my looks. I wasn't raised that way. Neither were my sisters. My parents aren't feminists, necessarily--they're just fair. And smart. I think it comes off as a little shrill to insist that ALL women are victimized and brainwashed into thinking that hair must be blonde, boobs must be big, makeup must be worn, "catching a man" is the be-all and end-all.

With regard to the original article...well, this is one of the many reasons Las Vegas was such a great wedding spot. Bridesmaids? What bridesmaids?

mehitabel commented on July 25, 2008 1:00 AM: "I think it comes off as a little shrill to insist that ALL women are victimized and brainwashed into thinking that hair must be blonde, boobs must be big, makeup must be worn, 'catching a man' is the be-all and end-all."

Are you hiring?

If not, then what about those of us who aren't brainwashed and still feel pressured to meet beauty standards in order to be accepted by employers enough to get and keep our jobs when we live in societies where looking "too unsexy" can get a woman rejected for even an accounting job?

"I think it comes off as a little shrill to insist that ALL women are victimized and brainwashed into thinking that hair must be blonde, boobs must be big, makeup must be worn, 'catching a man' is the be-all and end-all."

Even if you are unaffected by these messages from society and media, as people who apply critical thinking may be, you will still be judged by the standards of those around you. It may be as in your face and down to earth as clothes not being readily available in your size, as with my wife in her home country, where kimono, which traditionally reach the ankle, hang on her like a dress. She was the only one in tea ceremony lessons wearing jeans. She came to the US to buy shoes that fit, as opposed to cramming her feet into average Japanese woman sized shoes (the only type readily available back home). Hiring, promotion and salaries also vary according to lookism or heightism, which is beyond the control of yourself or your parents. And if you are open to having a man in your life, men you may be attracted to likely do judge you by how you look, and not see you for who you are.

Weddings and all that go to make them are big business, and girls are taught from an early age that this should be the happiest day of their life. It is necessary for the happy couple to begin married life with all the "necessary" material goods, so first came the gift registries expecting guests to buy previously chosen and usually expensive gifts (and this is after you've already forked out buying something for their engagement). Recently I received a wedding invitation inviting guests to contribute to the happy couple's honeymoon fund. What I can see happening next is establishments which offer cosmetic treatments and enhancements establishing registries so that guests can contribute to the bride-to be's own "enhancements" prior to the big day. Forget the bridesmaids. So instead of buying a cutlery set, you can contribute to the bride-to-be's breast enlargement, skin rejuvenation, botox or whatever her little heart desires. There's a real business opportunity there!

Wow. If I ever actually get married, my betrothed and I will like ... smash a pinata and eat sandwiches, or something.

Re: CNBC Sucks' comment

Some men seem to want a cookie for declaring that they find breast implants disgusting and "plastic women" a turn-off.
Oh no, you want your perfect woman to have been born that way.

Nice strawwomen, mehitabel. I never said I'm brainwashed, or that all women are brainwashed. I am saying that gendered conditioning is VERY STRONG, and NO woman is immune from absorbing the messages out there, even if she ultimately recognizes how fucked up and wrong they are.

There are so many expectations from people for your wedding. My fiance and I have one coming up. We've been trying to cut out pieces of the whole event that just don't need to take place. The rehearsal dinner, the gifts to the attendees, the gifts to the wedding party, the over-elaborate food presentations. We find that different parts of the family bemoan when we cut out what's become the norm for weddings, viewing it as cheap or deliberately slights against them. It's all very frustrating.

The best wedding I have EVER been to was earlier this year. It was a very small affair in my small home town -- perhaps 30 people, tops at the wedding itself, and most also went to the reception. The bride wore a dress from like, Torrid or something else equally cheap. The reception was held at a snack bar/restaurant/arcade in a park right on the river. Yes, an arcade! There was a keg! Tons of kids. And karaoke! We played pool and silly arcade games and sang silly songs and we drinking adults had way too much beer and my bf and I went for a walk around the park at midnight, right next to the gorgeous Colorado River...

Anyway, I am a firm believer that weddings should be FUN and not stuffy and not a fucking contenst.

I'm getting married next halloween in Vegas. It's a ways off, but it's never to early to be caught up in wedding fever! I should start starving myself stat so I can cram myself into a confectionery-looking dress by next year. Who knows, if I don't beg and grovel for my husband-to-be's attention while looking like a stepford bride, he might just leave me. Then I'll grow old and alone with only cats to comfort me.
I kid!
Seriously, though, my bridesmaids are a. a hipster gay dude who happens to be black, b. a fidgety funny dude who happens to be white and c. a part-time fashion model who is considered plus-size because she wears an 8/10.
Ain't none of them going be wanting any botox or breast augmentations. At least one of them might try to cut a bitch. They will, however, take donations of champagne and gambling money.

How much of a "trend" can this really be? I mean, who can afford to pay for botox or boob jobs for their wedding party? Oh. The upper class, that's who. Just one more example of the media taking something weird *some* rich people are doing and turning it into a "trend".

Leah, I think it's also an example of the so-called "liberal" media looking for reasons to depict women as shallow, money-grubbing, harpie bitches.

Like Destra, I'm getting married soon, too, in just over two months.

I've been using bride-to-be message boards in order to get the best deals, to find out what is in the area of the wedding (I'm doing this long-distance), etc. Plus, people often tend to ask one another for advice.

You will not believe the lengths some will go to in order to have "perfection." I've seen brides ask about the etiquette of dumping bridesmaids because they can't afford the dress that's been chosen/won't dye their shoes/won't try to look identical to every other bridesmaid in the wedding party.

For brides, I feel like it's all about those wedding pictures and creating the "history" that the day was perfect and meant to be. Never mind what's really going on in peoples lives, brides want to look back and imagine the perfection they had for just one day.

That's my theory, anyway.

RiotGrrl- I have Ad Block too, but if you Ad Block on sites that are supported by ads, sometimes the site owners lose money. In that the people who bought ad space won't pay for blocked impressions. So, yes, it's annoying. Leave it on for Myspace and Yahoo and the like. But I turn off my blocker for indie sites I

In response to the article:

I know there are a lot of women that are willing to make everyone else suffer so she can have her "special day", but at some point, these women have to grow up and get over their little girl fantasies of fairy tale weddings and "happily ever after"s. They don't exist! And being so obsessed and controlling over your wedding is a good way to alienate friends and family, sometimes permanently. Wedding ceremonies should be about having your family, friends and community there to support you and enjoy the day WITH you. Not just as an ornament or an audience. It's selfish and elitist and we've all had these kinds of ideals crammed down our throats since we were kids! *grrr* I hate it! I'm so glad that no one's ever asked me to be their bride's maid. (Even the extreme stuff not-withstanding.)

And, Danyell, entitled, prissy princesses like these are the ones who'll really need the support of friends and family once their knights in shining armour inevitably end up joining AdultFriendFinder or boinking the babysitter.

Ugh, I'm sorry. Women like this ALMOST make me understand why some people are misogynists.

SarahMC beat me to it. I'm very suspicious of the attempt to paint this as a trend. If the reaction to this is "OMG, what is wrong with women?" rather than "OMG, what is wrong with the media?" they've won.

In the even I get married, we're going to Vegas. I cannot be dealing with seating plans and all the associated bumf.

I cannot believe there are women out there who'd even consider asking their bridesmaid to have elective surgery to look pretty in the pictures. If it bothers them that much, use Photoshop!

The best advice I got about my wedding was from a professor:

"People will try to tell you that your wedding is about you. It isn't. It's about your culture and society. Just do whatever they say you have to do to be married, and then enjoy your husband."

It was great advice. In my culture, I have to wear a big silly dress, throw a bouquet, drink champagne with arms linked, and so on. I let my mom pick out flowers she liked, I let my dad walk me down the aisle, I let the grandmas wear corsages. Why? Because it's for them, not me.

I picked out food I liked (and ate plenty of it!) and I now get all the social and legal perks of having an official husband. I guess it was a case of "if you can't beat the patriarchy, join it," but I had fun and my hubby and I can now be as unconventional as we like.

Misspelled and others:

I don't agree at all. All of you are in denial. There is society influencing us for sure but certainly you cannot just put the blame on it and say all your problems are because of society and wash your hands. It is horrible!!

Men have lot of problems too. Boys are treated more harshly then Girls from birth, boys are told that they have to be built with lot of muscles to attract women, boys have to be earn lot of money...
90%+ deaths in work place are men, very few men take a break from work - they work from 22 to 60+ every year.. - they do the dirtiest of works - construction... - they work more hours at work then women...
But I don't see them complaining all the time.

I think women are just too weak. And complain about everything.

If there is so much of media trying to influence you, why are you not strong enough and develop your own individuality? Why are so weak?

When you put on your makeup are you doing it for the society or for yourself? If it is for others why don't you change?
If you are doing it bcos you like, go ahead... It is your life...

I think women put in so much effort to look good (to me it is insane...By the way most men think women are insane to put in so much effort) bcos they want attention not bcos somebody is forcing them to do it. The last thing that crosses ones mind when you look at a "made" up girl is that she is somehow oppressed.

How about growing up and taking responsibility? How about stopping blaming others and being strong?

I think this is the reason why Women have been suppressed throughout centuries. Bcos they are not strong. Bcos they keep complaining instead of solving the problems. Bcos they are not independent.

I honestly think that my maid of honor and sole attendant would have come after me with her fencing blade if I suggested plastic surgery would be 'fun.' Then again, when she asked me what I wanted her to wear, my response was something like: "Hmmmm... Good question. I was thinking... clothes."

Mark K: How about learning to spell?

Mark K: I'm sorry, but in the English language, I don't think there is an "o" is the word because anywhere.

Damnit. "in the word."

Oh, Mark. You're way out of your depth.

Start here:

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/

Don't get me wrong, Logrus, I think it's bad for men to get botox injections too. But if the show had had a female couple getting them and no male couple getting them, it would have fed into the whole notion that women have to pretty themselves up and men don't.

...Then again, considering this was My Fabulous Gay Wedding, it kinda fed into the notion that gay men are vain.

The rest of the show was pretty good, though.

"Boys are treated more harshly then Girls from birth"

Oh Mark, thanks for the laugh! :D

There's no denying women do get this pressure from the beginning of their lives, but who do they get it from? Not me.

In my experience, they get it from OTHER WOMEN. (or in some cases, gay men... designers, magazine editors etc. -- yes that's a stereotype, but if you're getting your cues from Maxim or Playboy then you're doing it to yourself, those aren't targeted to you and men know they are fantasies)

I've dated plenty of women of various shapes and sizes and they all express various disatifaction with their bodies/looks/selves that I constantly have to refute, to the point that I want to dump them because of their overwhelming desire to change themselves.

I have a friend now who is destroying herself with an eating disorder and she just won't listen to me when I tell her she was never fat and was fine the way she was.

I've also hired and/or promoted women I did not consider attractive personally.

Whenever I see a woman sporting a huge rock on her left hand I think, "there's a woman who wants to tell other women she's landed a rich/obediant guy."

Even in the article, it's the BRIDE who is doing it to her bridesmaids, not the groom or the bride's father or any other part of this so-called patriarchy.

It's woman to woman more than coming from or intended for men.

jsonpter - I totally agree with you.

Most of the pressure on Women to look good comes from other women and also because they want to date rich guys - marry a rich guy and you are set for life, there is no need to work hard. And rich guys go after good looking women - nothing wrong about it.

Some Women put pressure on themselves because they want to marry rich guys and use their looks to make a living.

If a grown up Women does not want to put in too much effort to look good, nobody is forcing her to do it.

jsonpter and mark k,

"patriarchy" does not mean "group of men".
A patriarchy is a social system that favors the experiences, worth and perspectives of men (which is narrowly defined) as being of value. women, and any men who do not fit that narrow definition of masculinity, get treated as worth less in comparison. In a system where you can either fight it and get treated worse, or encourage it and get a few more crumbs than you got before, many women internalize the sexism that they are surrounded with, and help to reinforce it.

also see the article on "internalized sexism" at the feminism 101 blog:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/internalized-sexism/

and for an explanation of how women can and do contribute to the patriarchy:

"In exchange for the approval of the patriarchal system (i.e. "patriarchal pats on the head"), the P-W performs various acts of parroting, submission, and sucking up."
read the rest here:
http://reformedpatriarchywhore.blogspot.com/2008/04/i-was-teenage-patriarchy-whore.html

Please don't lump me in with Mark K. I reject his comment "I think women are just too weak. And complain about everything."

I have known and loved many strong women and unlocking the mysteries of what you gals want and how you communicate makes life more than fantastic.

That said, thanks for the links on the definitions of your terms.

My answer is still the same, this stuff is on women to figure out and solve for themselves. If you're saying you already get that and it's what you're trying to do, then peace be with you.

We men do not live in some protected massive frat where we all give each other everything. We also have "choices contrained by expectations" and other bs that are just parts of living in society, regardless of your gender.

Instead of "patriarchy" just call it "society". There is plenty ingrained expectation screwing up lives to go around for all of us.

Personally I'm more concerned with issues of poverty and wealth inequality than gender issues.

unlocking the mysteries of what you gals want and how you communicate...

So you view us women as The Other, a mysterious, homogenous group of aliens - so different from regular people (i.e. men).

Personally I'm more concerned with issues of poverty and wealth inequality than gender issues.

Well that's nice. For you, feminism is philosophical. For me, it's my LIFE.

:So you view us women as The Other, a mysterious, homogenous group of aliens

Absolutely! Fabulous aliens. :)

:so different from regular people (i.e. men).

No, the view that men represent the "regular" is yours and anyone who uses the term "Patriarchy". You are starting from the point of view that men are the establishment against which your rage should be focused.

We're not.

We should all be fighting The Rich together. Everything else is a distraction that divides us and perpetuates the deepest most significant inequality on Earth.

Dori, Thanks for the links.. Nice articles..

Upbringing and conditioning would hold true for Boys and Men too. Boys are "taught" to be muscular, strong, to protect others (90%+ army is Men, I guess), make lots of money...

The same excuse can be used by murderers, thiefs.., that they were brought up that way..

One of the important reasons why women spend so much effort looking good is financial. If you are good looking your life could be taken care of without working too hard. Probably there are thousands if not millions of Women who have never finished degree, who have never worked 40 hours/week and who are leading a very comfortable life . Probably there are very few Men who fit that profile.

I have met several women for whom "looking good" is so important that they behave unreasonably. There is no way you could have a "good" relationship with them.

The other problem is irrespective of how good you look, the looks will fade away after few years/decades. And this adds to the women's insecurity. And that makes them live always on the edge.

SarahMC -

This is my opinion.
I believe Women communicate in a different way. They talk too much. I will go crazy if I listen to them talk for a long time.

One of my top 3 reasons why I don't want to get married is because they talk too much. I think 90%+ men feel this way but very few of them say it openly.

The other day my friend called me. We spoke for 60 mins. And she was talking for 55+ mins. This happens very often. This too after telling her that she talks too much..
How do you expect 2 people to communicate when one talks so much...

I can't believe I'm about to dignify your stereotypes and lies with a response, Mark K, but the myth that women talk more than men is just that - a myth.

Men talk just as much as women.

Maybe even more.

Certainly in the workplace, my experience has been that men love the sound of their own voices. There is nothing you could do to convince me that women talk more than men. It's a sexist stereotype and you've bought right into it.

As far as your comment at 7:26 is concerned, I have one thing to say: Patriarchy Hurts Men Too.

Jsonpter: First of all, sexism and poverty are tied together in a number of ways, not least of which is poor mothers earning 70 cents (or less) to the male dollar.

Second, it's not a contest.

Mark K: that thing about women talking more than men? It's been refuted.

Of course, it always seems like someone's blathering when you go into the conversation believing they have nothing important to say.

jsonpter,

I will repeat this, because it bears repeating:

Patriarchy =/= men as a group
those societal expectations that men face? yep, sexism and a function of the patriarchy. Also, no, you don't get to tell me how to define terms on an issue that you admittedly don't really care about(and if that is true then what exactly are you doing at a feminist blog anyway?)

also, those other things you are more worried about then gender equality? they are also effected and changed by the existence of sexism and the patriarchy. Women are disproportionately effected by poverty and inequal wealth distribution, especially women of color and women in developing countries.

it's called intersectionality. google it.

And I am lumping you in with Mark because while he is being more of a misogynist, you are both saying the same thing. If you don't like that, maybe you should examine your assumptions and positions.

and Mark? you cannot have possibly actually read the link to the feminism 101 blog if you are still spouting that crap. Learn to think critically and read.

Probably there are thousands if not millions of Women who have never finished degree, who have never worked 40 hours/week and who are leading a very comfortable life .

And where are all of these queens of luxury, hmmm? See my response to jsonpter re: poverty.

SarahMC, Dori,

I don't agree with the studies... Lot of them is cooked up. I am willing to bet all my money that Women talk more than Men on an average. It has been my experience.
As far as Women earning 70% of Men,
- Women take off 6-10 years from work. So, they have to earn less just by experience alone.
- They are less willing to travel, work overtime, they want more flexible schedule.. Heard of Warren Farrell - Why Men earn more?
- Men work in the most dangerous of jobs - 90%+ of all work deaths are Men.
- Costs associated with Pregnancy, Maternity leave should be considered by the company that is hiring the Woman.
If I was running the company I would consider all this. If not, I would go bankrupt.
If Women are paid less salary for the same job, why not hire more Women and fire all the Men and the companies can make a big profit.

There are thousands of Women who have never finished a degree, never worked full time and who are leading a very good life. All you have to do is look around..

Well obviously YOUR personal experiences are more important than numerous research studies, and MY personal experience, Mark K. WTF is your point with all this?

Mark K, you just don't know how to talk to women. I'm guessing you haven't been very successful so you're angry. I used to be like that, I can relate. I'd PM you some useful info if I could, I'd also advise you to do something better with your time than take out your frustrations on women on blogs. It might feel good in the short term, but it won't give you want you really want and need.

Probably there are thousands if not millions of Women who have never finished degree, who have never worked 40 hours/week and who are leading a very comfortable life.

And where are all of these queens of luxury, hmmm? See my response to jsonpter re: poverty.

----------

They're getting boob jobs and going to friends' weddings.

Mark may be pulling numbers out of his self, but there are several industries, legal and not, based on the fact that women can trade beauty for money. (men can too, but not as much, and mostly they're selling it to other men)

The reason for this is evolutionary, it's natural. Men are visual, women are verbal/emotional.

Saying society is dominated by men (ie. patriarchal) is like saying the sky is dominated by the sun. Duh.

Most species are dominated by their males and fall into providers vs. care taker roles. This is not controversial.

Some people are very happy to fit into these roles, so what?

If you want to break out of your role, go for it, but expect resistance and struggle for centuries to come.

I do think it's much easier for a woman to explore taking on a traditionally male role than it is for man to do the reverse.

It's fashionable for women to wear men's clothes, date women, be tough, play sports, and other things non-traditionally feminine.

For a man to do their opposite just makes him appear weak and undesirable to women, that innoffensive effeminate male friend you love so much, but wouldn't think to mate with.

yes jsonpter, women who are struggling to pay their bills and feed themselves and their families are totally out getting boob jobs. Why do you assume that these women are unemployed, without degrees, and living off of someone else? The one woman who was quoted in the post was credited as being a photographer in manhattan.

I am only repeating this one more time. All of those restrictions that you outline for men in defying gender roles are functions of the PATRIARCHY and SEXISM. The idea that this makes men seem weak and undesirable is because anything "feminine" is considered negative or less than in a patriarchy. Have a nice day.

I'm calling for a game of anti-feminist bingo here, specially since marky pulled out warren farrell. Anyone else need bingo cards?

The reason for this is evolutionary, it's natural. Men are visual, women are verbal/emotional.

False. Men are no more visually oriented than women. Women are no more emotional than men. But there's this patriarchy that encourages people to act in gender-defined ways.

Most species are dominated by their males and fall into providers vs. care taker roles. This is not controversial.

Well, obviously, you have to ignore all herbivorous species, where "providers" just have to look down and say "hey! Grass! My work here is done!".

And you have to discount small animals that generally only feed themselves, rather than providing for others.

So, we're basically left with large, carnivorous mammals such as lions (where the providers are exclusively female) and wolves (where hunting is done by both sexes acting together. How many species can you name where food gathering is predominantly done by males? Because I'm pretty sure it's more controversial than you think....

I do think it's much easier for a woman to explore taking on a traditionally male role than it is for man to do the reverse.

Yes, it's easier for women to show traits that the patriarchy considers "good" (ie masculine), than for men to show traits that the patriarchy considers "bad" (ie feminine). And you think that means that the patriarchy doesn't exist?

Shorter Mark K.: "I don't trust studies done by peer-reviewed scholars because they might come up with results I don't agree with. I only trust studies from clearly biased sources, because then I know what I'm getting."

There are a lot of wedding stories in the media right now, and they all seem to blame the bride or our consumeristic culture, or the bride that our consumeristic culture has made. But--there are hordes of ladies out there who say yes to marriage, no the bullshit, but then get tackled in ways they never could have expected by their families. Jezebel had a nice comparison recently about families to weddings as investors to public stock--they want an return on their investment and shit gets weird. The news stories and reality shows only capture the brides in response to these crazy networks of emotional fireworks that we ultimately are related to, but the finger never gets wagged unless mums or dads is crazy in a specific way. But parents are much more subtle, and much more powerful than any snapshot. So, bridezilla's demanding boob jobs? Maybe. But, there is more in the stew than that.