Raptors lose another “statement game” to Cleveland
Posted by Arsenalist on March 22, 2008
Depending on your Raptor beliefs you can look at this one in a few different ways: 1) All in all a good effort by the Raps, too much Lebron in the end 2) Jose sat for way too long in the third/fourth quarter during which time Cleveland went +6, 3) Cleveland owned us on the boards 51-35 as expected and rightfully deserved to win, 4) If we don’t shoot 39%, Bosh doesn’t go 7/18 and Bargnani shows a horse’s ass worth of talent, maybe we get a shot at a win, 5) We should’ve doubled Lebron more, especially in the fourth and made someone else beat us. All 5 points are valid ones, now it simply depends on which one you want to give more weight to and assign as reasons for the loss.
Lebron James has owned us in the fourth quarter of practically every game and yet we continue to use single coverage leaving Parker, Delfino and even Calderon out to dry. In the one fourth quarter possession that we doubled Lebron before he penetrated the lane, we managed to stop Cleveland. All other times, Lebron ended up scoring on a dunk or a wide-open jumper. Maybe an adjustment and a change in philosophy was in order on the part of Sam to increase the chances of us pulling one out in the fourth. Instead we did nothing to make Lebron’s life difficult and he stuffed it right down our throats just like old times.
Our best stretch of play came in the third quarter where Calderon and Bosh were playing with great synergy and the Raptors were moving on offense, collapsing on defense and attacking the boards. Although Bosh wasn’t close to being his best, it was made up by Calderon terrorizing Delonte West and finding shooters for clean looks. Watching Jose play in the third, every Raptors fan must’ve been praying for him to continue at the outset of the fourth quarter and carry this team to a win on a night where Bosh was struggling and Bargnani simply sucked. No such luck, Sam intervened and although TJ wasn’t as bad as he’s been of late, he was a big time liability on defense and hit-and-miss on offense. By the time Jose was brought back, he’d been sitting for 25 minutes of real time and was cold. Game over.
The Cavs have what it takes to neutralize Bosh, Anderson Varejao gives Bosh fits and Joe Smith matches up very well against him, that’s what gives even more importance to the play of Andrea Bargnani. From what I’ve been led to believe, he’s supposed to have the quickness to take the likes of Ben Wallace and Zydrunas Ilgauskas right to the rim and either get those guys in foul trouble and/or score by being aggressive. But what we saw on the court was a timid Andrea that all but once looked to be more than happy staying on the perimeter and acting like there was a wall of radiation constructed approximately 20 feet from the rim. Of course Sam yanked him after two early and silly fouls but we can’t continue to blame Sam for his troubles, Bargnani’s the reason why Bargnani’s struggling. This is basketball, not rocket science: take advantage of the weaknesses of the players that are guarding you, the man simply doesn’t do that.
Sam’s out-of-timeout play with :46 seconds left might’ve been the joke of the season. Let’s give the struggling Chris Bosh a fading away while moving laterally with a hand in his face. Talk about having no clue on how to get a score when you need one. Even though this game was close throughout the fourth quarter, we never really had a chance of winning it. It’s because there was a prevalent feeling that when it came down to it, Cleveland would go to Lebron and we wouldn’t be able to stop him, and when it came time for us to score, we’d end up taking a low percentage shot and Cleveland would clean up the boards. Not shockingly, that’s exactly what happened. And a lot of credit needs to be given to Cleveland because they are the better team: more size, more athleticism, better rebounding, more scorers and most of all, they have a true superstar. So maybe we should all be thankful that we were in this game for so long. Even if we had managed to sneak this one out through some sheer luck or a player or two going hot, one thing is for sure: we can’t beat Cleveland in a 7-game series, whoever thinks that is drastically overvaluing our talent and coaching.
Rasho Nesterovic has been solid, he defended Big Z much better than Andrea, was aggressive around the rim and was sticking his jumper. It’s a pity he probably won’t be back with the Raptors because he brings a lot to this team and can be a valuable asset in a playoff series. Jamario Moon’s 10 rebounds were impressive but we need more than 4 points from our starting SF spot. Moon’s ill-advised 18 footer with 1:05 left in a 5 point game is a classic example of our offense suffering under Sam, there is just no way he should be taking that shot. You might be able to forgive that play because he was open, however he continues to bail out defenses by showing no desire to take his man off the bounce and draw contact. In one sense he’s totally wasting his athleticism on offense because the only time we see it is on defense and on rare put-back dunks.
So the Raptors lose a big statement game. Nothing new here, nothing that hasn’t happened before, nothing that should be remotely shocking. Given the talent and coaching on this team, I think the 6th seed is a fair result for the season. I don’t think we’re any better or any worse.
Liners:
- To observe just how stagnant the Raptors offense is, just focus on the red shirts on a play. Don’t pay any attention to what’s going on, don’t look at the ball, don’t look at the defense, just notice the red jerseys and their movement. You’ll be alarmed. I thought about going into another tirade about how weak and unorganized we are on offense but it’s all already been said.
- Damon Jones’ two threes should never have happened. When will Sam understand, don’t help off a shooter! How simple is this concept, instead of providing help from the wings, bring it from the paint OR double early so you won’t have to make such decisions. I would’ve just liked to see us trap Lebron early and force him to give up the ball, if he catches it again with seconds left on the shot clock, fine, but at least make him give it up and prevent him from doing exactly what he wants to do.
- It’s very hard to like Lebron. The guy is an arrogant c*nt. I’d say I prefer Kobe over him.
- We’ve been seeing more Kapono of late which I think is a good thing. Who’s he taking minutes away from? Delfino and Moon - both inconsistent and streaky players that can’t be relied upon to provide any offensive spark. I think this is a good time to give Kapono some burn and get his legs and shot ready for the playoffs. For us to have a shot at winning a series, we need outside shooting more than anything and he’s the guy to provide that.
- It’s a real shame that we don’t know what the outcome of this game would’ve been if Jose Calderon had started the fourth quarter in the same way he was playing in the third. Sam Mitchell has probably taken away the Raptors chances of a win at least 7-10 times this season based on bad fourth quarter substitutions. If the idea is to give Calderon a breather, burn a timeout right after the fourth quarter starts and that should be enough. No reason to sit him for half an hour. All Sam’s substitutions are mechanical and lacking any real thought or strategy.
- As with the previous Cleveland games, I would’ve liked to see Joey Graham guard Lebron James and see how far he gets. He’s supposed to be a good physical defender, why not give him a shot? It’s not like we got something to lose, Lebron was finding seams in our defense all throughout the fourth quarter going for wide-open dunks off the pick ‘n roll. It’s sad when your defense breaks down at the 3-pt line and nobody from the weakside steps in.
- Chris Bosh looked rusty and his jumper wasn’t working. Before we start deriding him for settling for jumpers and not showing up, let’s remember he’s coming off an injury and is clearly finding his offensive and defensive rhythm.
- The second/third quarter stretch where both teams couldn’t buy a hoop was our chance to pull away a little but unfortunately Bosh and Kapono missed some pretty good looks which could’ve easily put us up 8 or 9.
- The camera focusing on Jose Calderon on the fourth quarter was really weird. Yeah, we get it, even you think he should be playing.
March 22, 2008 at 1:30 am
TJ Ford is …. incompetent, and that’s about it. Nobody knows what he is going to do with the ball when it’s in his hands, and I suspect neither does he .. except shoot to get rid of it in time. It’s downright painful watching him try to run the offense, and all that happens is that he disconnects from the other 4 players and then when he needs to bail out, he attempts some screwy pass nobody expects.
What we are witnessing in Ford is somebody who may be having psychological problems and he is attempting to resolve them in full public view. He is not an entertaining player and certainly doesn’t meet the expectations of basketball aficionados watching the Raptors.
Ford just does not unify the team from the PG position as does Calderon, and that is quite obvious. In his present state of mind, he should be played sparingly, perhaps 10 minutes max to give Calderon a breather. I’m sure the other players must find it difficult adjusting to Ford’s chaotic style of play. If coach Mitchell still has faith in Ford, he must justify his decision to play Ford when the result is so devastating to the team.
March 22, 2008 at 1:34 am
I always look forward to your PG blog, always have interesting things to say. I couldn’t disagree with you on anything, except that. Sam mistake was subbing Jose when TJ was actually doing good. He should have ride the hot hand, because that TJ, Bosh and Rasho combo was working for a minute.
March 22, 2008 at 1:56 am
kris, that’s a good point however he wouldn’t have been faced with that decision if he had just hung on to the hot shooting Calderon. Sam’s substitutions are very random and don’t consider the current form of the player, it’s like he’s made up his mind before the game’s even started.
Looking past the subs, I do feel that if Kapono had nailed some of his open shots and CB4 had made the shots he “usually” makes, we would’ve had a shot in this one. And as bad as Bargnani has been playing, I didn’t expect him to be a complete non-factor. But as I said in the post, even if we win this game, it’ll do something for our confidence but it doesn’t mean that we won’t be done in five games against them in a series.
FAQ, he’s not a bench player and is incapable of accepting that role. The more Sam forces him to be a backup, the more the team will suffer. I know it’s not a good thing to give in to players but it might be a good idea to let him get into his natural and comfortable role of starting and bring the total team-player Calderon off the bench. Even if you plan on trading Ford in the off-season, for the sake of the season and playoff-run you have to get things back to “normal” for now.
March 22, 2008 at 3:05 am
once again..the team was in a sweet flow with jose,we were up.i prayed jose would come out onto the court to start the fourth.(i figured give the lil bitch tj a couple minutes not to hurt his feelings but this game is ours for the taking)…no such luck.as every minute passed and our squad tried to play offense,with tj running it i liken it to a doctor pulling teeth our d struggled as well as confidence plummeted….tj finally hits 2 shots and i figure,”hell,sams actually gonna play this lil bitch the whole 4th qtr”…as soon as i thunk it and the tide of the game was all in favor of the cavs,sam put in a freezin cold jose with us down and out.SAM IS A FUCKEN MORON…..this loser has no clue how to manage not 1 player on this team.
March 22, 2008 at 3:08 am
…how many more times will we let sam snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?….BRYAN COLANGELO I AM LOSING FAITH IN YOU.
March 22, 2008 at 6:41 am
Andiamo, I believe that Sam will be gone this summer (thank god!).
BC cannot help but see Sam’s crappy rotations (if you cam call them that). I agree with Arsenalist that Sam has cost our team 7 to 10 wins by his 4 quarter antics.
March 22, 2008 at 7:38 am
Your thinking is always on the ultra-micro level, like game subs without knowing who is gassed or hurt or pissed or what BC’s macro strategy is, assuming he has one.
You love Jose. You hate TJ. Well, right now $8.0 million man TJ has zero trade value. The only way to get rid of TJ and make you less unhappy is to give him 20 QUALITY min/game and hope he looks good.
And if Bosh has LBJ’s swagger, he might win us more games at crunch time. Instead of crumpling like a paper cup.
March 22, 2008 at 8:16 am
I came away a little annoyed at a handful of plays, sam not putting Jose back in.
I think my exact quote while watching
“Jose makes my tummy feel better”
I never expected the raps to win, the game was much closer than I expected. It just seems that the Raps never can make that one or two plays being it a shot or a rebound.
I want to kick Damon Jones in the head.
Yep the camera on Jose was not needed, sam can’t see it and he is the one that needed the hint.
Suggestion, like in the NFL maybe Sam needs some eyes in the sky and have a headset.
Um Sam…….put JOse back in……over…..
LeBron gets on my nerves too. I have always liked Kobe better.
LBJ is amazing but it is just the way he acts around the court, like he is entitled to everything.
Yep Kobe can do it to but he has earned it.
Ben Wallace is useless, ever since leaving the other Wallace.
One thing I did notice and I bet some of you did as well. How many times did you confuse LBJ for Wallace on the court.
Man Lebron is a big boy.
Rod Black, worst reporter in sports.
Chuck’s “You gotta be kidding me” makes me want to throw something at the tv.
Next up the Nuggets…..no idea what to expect.
Happy Easter all.
March 22, 2008 at 8:27 am
Word do RoboSpammer….the micro analysis is out of control. And a lot of people on here are delusional about the player on the team.
This game was lost after bitchass Parker airballs a 3 after TJ fed it to him, following his two shots to tie the game. I FUCKING HATE ANTONIA PARKER. He’s just like Jose.. no balls in crunch time. NONE!
BC needs to get rid of all the Europeans (including Antonia Parker) on the team. Not one of them has the mental fortitude to deal with must win games or playoffs. TJ and Bosh are the only ones that deliver when we need buckets.
March 22, 2008 at 8:31 am
I’ll tell you what to expect.. they are going to set an NBA record for most point scored in 4qs…. 220. Melo and AI will combine for 120.
March 22, 2008 at 8:37 am
Great follow-up after last night’s disappointment. I’m hoping we rid ourselves of TJ and Sam after our first round exit.
March 22, 2008 at 9:30 am
we didn’t make shots. had open looks, didn’t make shot…shots…we didn’t make them. if we made, diferent game, but we didn’t, so we didn’t win. if we did make them…look out brother, raptors are bad ass…man i’m glad i missed that game.
you know, i really don’t think the raptors would be any better in terms of win/loss if bosh didn’t go down. they probably would have lost all five (possibly stole one in sac), and we would be even more pissed off, cause there was no scapegoat to blame a late-season meltdown on.
same old story man…
March 22, 2008 at 9:31 am
Arsenalist,
Your first paragraph is bang-on.
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re: Moon’s ill-advised 18 footer with 1:05 left in a 5 point game is a classic example of our offense suffering under Sam, there is just no way he should be taking that shot.
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When an NBA coach/Sam Mitchell says,
“We just missed some key shots. We hit those and it’s a different story.”
IMHO, the ‘average’ Raptors fan has no idea what that coach/Sam is talking about.
When an ‘average’ Raptors fan says something like,
“The micro-analyzing that goes on here is over-board.”
this fan reveals only that he does not (yet) have a sophisticated understanding of how elite level athletics actually work … and what factors play a (major or minor) role in determining which opponents Win or Lose these types of contests.
FACT IS … Jamario Moon absolutely HAD to take the shot he took with 1:05 left in the 4thQ.
And, the (2nd) FACT IS … he HAD to MAKE IT, as well … if Toronto was going to have a legit chance to win this game coming down the stretch.
Unfortunately, for the Raptors, Moon missed … and the game was over at that point (for all intents and purposes).
When a championship tennis player speaks about his/her opponent in a Grand Slam Final, and says,
“We both played well, I just played the BIG points a little bit better today. That’s all.”
or,
when a championship golfer says about his/her course management in a Major,
“I hit The Key Shots I had to hit in order to keep my Momentum going.”
or,
when an NFL head coach says about winning a tight playoff game against a quality opponent,
“We made The Big Plays we needed to make to win a game like that.”
the ‘average’ Raptors fan doesn’t have a clue what this person, who is actually ‘in the arena’ (so-to-speak), is saying … at least, that is … if this same ‘average’ fan doesn’t understand that micro-performance at very specific points in a game/match/contest/etc. (pitting elite level athletes against one another) is THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WINNING AND LOSING, in situations like this.
The fact is … Moon has to be trained to make THAT shot … if the team is going to compete successfully in an important game against a high calibre opponent.
——————————————————————–
The person who is responsible for the Basketball Operations side of MLSE is Bryan Colangelo.
Moving forward, from here … it’s going to be fascinating to see which moves he will choose to make with the pieces he’s aligned, so far, in this Wizard’s Chess Match.
March 22, 2008 at 10:07 am
[...] - Arsenalist [...]
March 22, 2008 at 11:27 am
TJ Ford does not fit in with the Raptor’s current style of play, while Jose does. TJ does not have the basketball IQ of Jose, and I doubt he ever will. He is a head case .. plain and simple .. but he is obviously beloved by some because he is not a Euro player. TJ on the floor makes the Raptors look comical if not pathetic. I could say more …..
March 22, 2008 at 11:45 am
RoboSpammer, I was about to buy a TJ jersey when he came back from injury out of happiness. Financial matters intervened. I’m a supporter of playing time for whoever’s playing well. In a big time game like this, you have to go with who’s playing well and Jose had it going on in the third. If it’s a matter of somebody being “gassed”, calling a timeout early in the fourth usually fixes that problem. I will concede this though, as kris pointed out, once TJ Ford finally got in a groove, there was little reason to put Calderon back in.
Andiamo, I couldn’t agree more with the weird subs late in the game which destroy momentum. This is just one game, Portland, Magic, Jazz also pop straight into mind.
FLUXLAND, you’re joking about Parker right? He’s been our most consistent player all year long (save maybe for Bosh), I’m not sure what you’re expectations are of Parker. He’s not the long term solution at the 2, but he’s been playing very well of late and even in this game, he was doing a good job on Lebron. Guarding a player of his caliber takes a toll on you and even then he did well enough. I was surprised to see Lebron allowed to go one-on-one most of the night and in the fourth quarter, that should be one of the topics of discussion.
Raps Fan, simplistic view but a correct one. Despite all the problems, Kapono and Bosh missed shots that they usually drill. But bad shooting stretches are a part of the game when you’re a jump shooting team. Going cold every other night or so is to be expected and shouldn’t be a surprise. That’s why Points in the Paint are so important.
khandor, excellent point on how Jamario Moon HAD to take that shot. That’s what the defense wanted him to do and our offense played right into their hands. But seriously, how many times has this happened already? Jamario Moon being left wide open to shoot a crucial 18-23ft jumper only to miss it? It’s appalling that we can’t correct this issue this late into the season.
Bones, I would think Sam is a gonner too. Unless we win a couple playoff rounds, I don’t see BC bringing him back. Colangelo has to see that the personnel and coach simply don’t fit. Sam is a great coach for a young team who’s vying for a playoff spot. But anything after that, he’s at a loss for X’s and O’s and strategy. Maybe in a few years after he gets his feet more wet and gets some good assistants, he’ll figure that aspect of coaching out.
cuzzy, Rod Black makes me cringe. Not just today, from Day One.
March 22, 2008 at 12:21 pm
arse…i was just doing my smitch impression, i guess the sarcasm and disgust didn’t come through in the first paragraph, lol.
March 22, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Smitch is always right! If you make your shats you’ll win, if you don’t you lose! Shocking, eh? But in this game that cliche was more applicable, Bosh and Kapono missed some shots that they make. However it doesn’t excuse Smitch for dropping the ball on just about everything else.
March 22, 2008 at 12:47 pm
…im sick of sam.the talent is there.he’s like a fat person at a buffet gone schizophrenic on choices.he gorges haphazardly then moves on….it’s quite disturbing.he really has no clue who to play, when to play them, who’s hot,who’s cold…..he’s a dummy…………….we should be playing jose max minutes and give tj breaher time.is it that hard sam?if tj has a problem with that u dnp the bitch.tj isnt a team player,thats the prob,so spineless sam is trying to accomodate him….how sad.
and fuck all the loser idiot fans trying to make this into a tj/jose personal thing….it’s as clear as bottled water jose is the better pg for this team….idiots.
March 22, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Still not sure why Moon HAD to take that shot, guys. Can you explain?
My view is, if he had to take that shot, then why didn’t he DRIVE and slam one home? Or at least get to the line? In all seriousness, I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen Moon shoot a free throw. Arse, your line of “in one sense he’s totally wasting his athleticism on offense because the only time we see it is on defense and on rare put-back dunks” is bang on. Hence the reason he’s a CBAer.
I don’t think your analysis included enough about Bargs. What’s the deal with the goose-egg? He didn’t even hit his normal quota of two shots per game. Thoughts?
March 22, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Birdman,
From my perspective … Moon HAD to take that shot because (i) it was created for him by his teammates’ passing of the ball, (ii) there were Cleveland defenders standing under the basket when he received the ball, and (iii) he was wide open 15′ from the hoop in a well-balanced position.
THAT shot, right there, uncontested, is a shot that every coach in the NBA would encourage Moon to take … regardless of Jamario’s ‘level of athleticism’.
It was a simple shot … which he HAD to take it, and MAKE.
Unfortunately he missed it … AND the Raptors failed to get the offensive rebound.
End of Discussion.
When your team does not convert its scoring opportunity on the key possession of the game … your team is going to lose.
March 22, 2008 at 3:15 pm
FLUXLAND > Doug(h) Smit(c)h? Is that you? Harping on about TJ and hating on AP?
Ok. WE ALL know that there is this whole animosity between TJ vs Jose fanboys BS that’s run it’s course. But explain why the hate on AP? I’m curious.
March 22, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Ok…..Last Year When the nets were able to defend Bosh, it was obvious that we needed someone to spread the floor. Jamario should not be in the game in the last 5 mins. Sure his defence is ok, but with him on the floor, You don’t have to guard him, and he’ll continue to miss key shots. In the playoffs, Rasho/Bosh/AB, Delfino/Parker/Kapono, Ford/Calderon Should be the only players in the 4th q that get playing time.
Big changes better happen this summer, or……….i’ll continue to watch this team, but i won’t be happy about it
March 22, 2008 at 4:15 pm
FAQ - “TJ Ford does not fit in with the Raptor’s current style of play”
you are right, the talent around TJ sucks. They cannot keep up.
Jose does fit, you are right and if you want to keep watching us compete for the Atlantic ‘banner’ (TM khandor) we should def. start him and trade TJ.
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arsenalist and SiC - AP killed the momentum last night when he missed that shot. TJ just nailed 2 HUGE shots right in the grill of the Cavs. Next Rap possession TJ sets him up for a three (LeBron is running at him bent at the waist, doesn’t put up any D other then running by him) AP shoots an air ball. GAME OVER.
AP is a nice BENCH player, good for the locker room, great for the organization. But lets face it, he is not one of the players that can be counted to do anything when it NEEDS to be done.
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Andiamo - “it’s as clear as bottled water jose is the better pg for this team” - Yeah that was clearly evident from his performance in 30 minutes last night.
What has Jose done, dude? They guy has a great TO2A ratio and does his job while TJ is injured. All of a sudden he deserves the Order or Canada?
—-
I don’t know when people are going to realize we have two basketball players on this team - Bosh and TJ (K.H. I believe also but we have to see some playoff action and AB is a project). The rest is a bunch of guys that wouldn’t even make an expansion draft.
Look at the East without the records and look at the talent on paper. If some of those teams had their shit together, we would be fighting for 8th spot, at best, and that’s a very big if.
Jose is a good a back up guard that has overachieved by a mile this year (thanks to TJs injury). I am in utter disbelief how fans are treating TJ for no reason at all. None. The guy got injured and wants to give his 100% to the team, what’s wrong with that?
And lets not talk about how people throw around ridiculous statements about trading and firing people without any concept of a lot of business related issues regarding such talk. It’s almost embarrassing really.
March 22, 2008 at 4:29 pm
…lmao….flux we were +6 with jose in and -11 with tj.BUT,FORGET THE STATS….just watching the game u could see the team was playing better and more fluid at both ends of the floor with jose….jesus im starting to wonder if u people are retarded.
March 22, 2008 at 4:34 pm
FLUXLAND, what?!? Hump is a legitimate player but Calderon, Kapono, Parker “wouldn’t even make an expansion draft”? C’mon man, be fair. TJ is definitely the PG with more talent and a higher ceiling but be fair to the other players.
Birdman, he had to take that shot because he was wide freaking open and the shot clock was running down and he doesn’t have the ability to drive. That last point is hard to swallow but we should all recognize that Moon cannot drive to the rim past a defender or if there’s any sort of traffic around the rim. He just can’t, it’s his limitation.
But as I said in my previous post, this isn’t the first time the defense has left him open “forcing” him to shoot it for a miss. Sam need to recognize that and play offense/defense subs that late in the game. Offense/defense subs aren’t a hard concept to grasp and every coach uses them, but Sam still hasn’t figured it out. Sad!
March 22, 2008 at 4:40 pm
That +/- is deceiving…team didn’t look so fluid when Jose got put back in.. and i don’t want to hear about sitting down for 25 minutes real time.. u r in .. u r in.. PLAY..
Like I said, it’s all about how you see the team, and if you like this team - that’s headed for competing for the East basement - keep thinking what you are thinking.
Jose aint shit but a reagular season bencher. Take you pink sunglasses off, Andiamo!
March 22, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Arsenalist - ok is this fair? - None of those guys would have a starting spot anywhere in the L. The best they can hope for is “solid bencher.”
I explained Jose in the next paragraph.
March 22, 2008 at 4:53 pm
FLUXLAND > for the record,Arsenalist, RapsFan, and a whole lot of guys here ARE TJ fans, not his haters. I’m an equal opportunity hater/bandwagoneer, regardless if they are Euro-players, or if they come from Mars. LOL. I know when a person has their ideas set. So it’s a moot point for debate.
March 22, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Flux, Rasho started on Spurs championship teams. Calderon is a legit starter in the league, he might not have the defensive credentials to play 40+ minutes but he’s starter quality, no doubt about it. Anthony Parker is a Euro League MVP, yeah, it doesn’t carry much weight around here but he’s a legit starter too, especially in the East. Are you going to win a title with him at the 2? No, is he a serviceable player who can win you a round or two in the playoffs if the rest of the team is solid, I think so. Are Jamario Moon and Andrea Bargnani starters? Hell, no. IMHO, they are the two players that have been so inconsistent that it`s thrown a wrench at the starting lineup and caused this team to fluctuate between decent and pathetic.
I see your point though, this team doesn’t have enough good players to properly complement Bosh. I agree with you on that and that’s why I’m crying for a 3 who can score and a real interior defensive presence. I think this Jose/TJ thing is getting out of hand, people who deride one of the two and give no credit to the other are way off. I call for some sense of levelheadedness when it comes to this debate.
March 22, 2008 at 5:01 pm
Where do you even begin with this post and comments. Flux is one extreme and Andiamo is the other, you both are wrong and I think you`re both knowledgeable enough to figure out why.
My take on the Moon jumper is that if you`re that open you gotta shoot it. Ideally I dont` want him taking that shot but if youre a starting SF on an NBA team you should be able to make an open 18 footer. Blame Sam for allowing that situation to occur, not Moon for missing the J, he can`t help it. Arsenalist`s right, he cant drive because he can`t drive because he can`t drive.
I didn`t read a comment which talked about single coverage on Lebron, the guy`s owning us every time and Smitch isn`t doubling! WHY? Make him give the ball up and force Pavlovic and Joe Smith to beat you, I can live with that more than Lebron owning us on every 4th qtr play.
Denver is must-win, I dont` want to fall to 7th and face Detroit.
March 22, 2008 at 5:11 pm
arsenalist - I guess Rasho runs to slow for my liking and most of the time misses easy putbacks or/and swipes at rebounds.. like he can’t get off the ground or something. I see your point, I guess. He’s aiiight.
I have said “ty Rasho” plenty of times.
I hear you one the 3 with inside presence..it’s like a gaping hole on our team and it feels like a needle in my eye when I watch the games.
Re: TJ and Jose.. that’s all I am asking for as well.
March 22, 2008 at 6:13 pm
The reason why Ford gets ‘no love’ from basketball cognoscenti isn’t because certain individuals ‘dislike’ him for some nefarious reason.
Astute NBA observers know that it’s strictly ‘No Contest’ when deciding between these two talented but very different PG’s, at the highest level of competition …
http://khandorssportsblog.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/rosen-on-the-raptors-pg-situation/
Certain people SHOULD just stop saying that …
* TJ Ford is a ‘better’ player than Jose Calderon
* TJ Ford is someone who ‘can take over an NBA game with his ability to score the ball himself’ and Jose Calderon cannot
* TJ Ford has more ‘upside’, as a PG in the NBA, than Jose Calderon
* TJ Ford is ‘real’ player, Jose Calderon is not
* TJ Ford has an element of ‘toughness’ to his game, Jose Calderon does not
* TJ Ford can create his own shot (for himself), Jose Calderon cannot
* TJ Ford is a better defensive player than Jose Calderon
* etc., etc., etc.
Basketball Cognoscenti … including ‘top notch GM’s in the NBA’ … would pick Jose Calderon over TJ Ford, each and every time, if asked to choose between these two Point Guards to run their team.
March 22, 2008 at 7:03 pm
“Some people don’t get it and never will. Human nature, I guess”
“Are my ideas ridiculous? Or are they the most perfectly ridiculous ideas, that you never thought of?”
March 22, 2008 at 7:16 pm
..we got a proven winner on the world stage and a proven winner in his own mind…i’ll take the pg who ran spain to a championship and the pg whom many basketball minds see as the consensus starter and better player.
March 22, 2008 at 7:41 pm
I kind of prefer Smitch bashing myself :) … my mantra is … there is only one guy that has the power to yank or play a player …
March 23, 2008 at 7:41 am
SiC,
And there is only one person with ‘the power’ to:
* establish the organizational culture (long & short term objectives)
* hire key administrative personnel
* change the coaching staff
* change the scouting staff
* draft new players
* sign free agents
* trade current players
* dictate how current players are used
* set the day-to-day tone
for the Toronto Raptors.
:-)
March 23, 2008 at 8:20 am
khandor > point taken :)
March 23, 2008 at 9:45 am
Today’s home encounter against the Denver Nuggets (i.e. a +.500, poor defensive Western Conference team that is mediocre on the road) is the type of STATEMENT game the Raptors (absolutely) MUST win.
March 23, 2008 at 10:13 am
Khandor: A very interesting article on the PG play vs Cleveland by Charly Rosen @ Fox, thanks for the link, he clearly thinks Calderon is the way of the future as the best fit.
Just wondering, why did Mitchell play his back-up PG (TJ) for 3/4 of the 4th qtr, after giving his reasons for starting Jose ( playing so well with the starters & Bosh), after Jose played so well in 3rd with starters ( 25-18 ) score ???
No logic, even though TJ was not horrible and did not lose game by his play, he did not win, the starters did not play well, or keep, or get the lead (16-27).
March 23, 2008 at 10:57 am
Johnn19,
I’m going to have to disagree with you about ‘the lack of logic’ involved with Sam Mitchell’s substitution pattern in the game @ Cleveland.
If you’re sincerely interested … I can explain to you some of the things an NBA head coach, like Sam Mitchell, is thinking of when he makes the decision to:
i) Start TJ Ford for the 4thQ;
ii) Leave Ford in the game for as long as he did in that specific situation; and,then,
iii) Re-insert Calderon when he did.
I’m not saying that I, personally, am in agreement with what Coach Mitchell’s rationale was, at that time … but, I can certainly explain to you what I saw as ‘Sam Mitchell’s logic, as an NBA head coach’ when he made the decisions he did during the 4thQ of this game.
Let me know if you’re interested in reading such an explanation.
If not, no problem.
What I think it’s wrong to do, however … at least, in this specific instance … is say that, “… there was no logic on display in Sam’s use of Ford & Calderon during the 4thQ @ Cleveland.” … cause, IMO, based on what I saw during that game, there were definite reasons why Mitchell made the decisions he did … difficlt as they might be for the ‘average’ Raptors’ fan to understand without receiving a thorough explanation, which is almost never forthcoming from an NBA head coach in a post-game interview.
When an NBA head coach makes his subs … in a real live game … he is thinking about a lot more things than the ‘average’ fan thinks he is.
March 23, 2008 at 1:11 pm
“The best King James can ever be is an average NBA player.” -Charley Rosen
aaand… thank you very much Charley Rosen.
March 23, 2008 at 2:05 pm
re: King James
Maybe Rosen means … in comparison to MJ. :-)
and, of course, a link to that alleged Rosen quote sure would be helpful … from a contextual standpoint. :-)
March 23, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Uhh, no he doesn’t mean that.
I don’t post “alleged quotes”, son! And I’m not doing your research for you…..you not knowing this kind of makes me wonder when you started following bball.
Here’s a few more gems on LeBron from you boy:
“In high school, LeBron James might be a man among boys — but in the NBA, he’ll be a boy among men.”
Goes to show you, and don’t kid yourself, Charley is a good analyst.. but good evaluator or talent he is not. So, let’s not put too much stock into his PG analysis or pretty much anything he writes other then post game analysis.
March 23, 2008 at 7:45 pm
FLUX,
Son? Did you just say, “Son.” To me?
Now … that’s some funny stuff, right there.
ROTFLOL :-)
—————————-
Given your next alleged Rosen quote, it seems as though you are citing words that Charley wrote prior to Lebron entering the NBA.
If that’s the situation … then, I suppose there is a solid case to be made that ‘the Realist’ may have misjudged just how good LBJ was going to be after his first 4 years in the NBA.
In terms of projecting accurately how a 19 year old is going to develop by the time he reaches 23 … I agree with you … Charley Rosen isn’t (necessarily) an expert in this specific field.
Fortunately … that’s not what he’s done in his appraisal of Calderon & Ford.
:-)
March 24, 2008 at 6:53 am
Alleged? I guess I’ll do the work for you , then since you are either incapable of unwilling, yet you are willing to accuse me of posting alleged quotes!
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/rosen/021213.html
Either way, dude lost any credibility he ever had
Notice how negative all his feedback is?
The guy only has great old school stories and thats it!
He did make the same mistake with C & F.. I guess time will only tell.
I think Jose wouldn’t look this good if the talent around him was stronger. He only looks good when and because he plays with dudes that are below his talent.
I’m sure if you were to ask CV4 he would take Ford before Jose.
SON! LOL - I’m pretty sure I’m much older then you - you won’t even fill out you “about” section - what are you trying to hide? And how is anyone supposed to judge your opinion when they don’t know whom the perspective is coming from?
March 24, 2008 at 4:40 pm
FLUX,
1) Thanks for the link. Alleged is now removed.
2) Link says that ‘the Realist’ wrote that piece when LBJ was just 17 years old. That’s a long time ago. Think Mr. Rosen might have something different to say today? Good thing Charley isn’t paid to evaluate young players BEFORE they enter the NBA … which is what he did in this case. Not a good idea … playing away from his strength. As a former coach … he should know better than to engage in such Tom Foolery, working outside his element. :-)
3) Seems like we agree on something though … i.e. Rosen is a sharp analyst of today’s NBA game.
4) You’re correct … time will tell with Calderon & Ford.
5) Think you’re wrong about Calderon only ‘looking good’ when lining up beside ‘dogs’ … more likely a case of the exact opposite … i.e. the better players he has a chance to work with the better he performs himself, ala John Stockton, Mark Price, Maurice Cheeks & Kenny Smith (etc.).
6) I’m sure if you’d ask Karl Malone, Brad Daugherty, Dr. J & Moses, plus ‘The Dream’ they would choose Calderon. :-)
7) I wouldn’t be so quick to judge another’s chronilogical age, on-line, if I was you … as you might be older than me, or I might be older than you … who knows for sure?
8) About Me? This much I will tell you, right now … the first NBA game I remember watching was on a ‘black & white console TV’ in 1970 … http://www.nba.com/history/players/reed_summary.html … if you can top that … I say, “More power to ya!”
9) As my father liked to say, back in the day … “The only Son [sic] I know is the one in the sky.”
10) The perspective I hold is rooted in my name … just like yours.
:-)
March 24, 2008 at 5:06 pm
LOL!!!!
The Realist needs to pipe it down.. that piece killed him. Just killed him.
Allegedly you watched that game in 1970. ;-p
If that is the case, that makes your condescending ways even more appalling, as this would imply that you are at least 30. Although this last post, I must admit, didn’t feel that way (condescending that is)
My perspective is far far far removed from my name. If anything my comments have been the opposite. Not sure what to think of yours, other then it may be Pakistani.
I never judged your age… I only wondered.
Also, I’ve seen that K-Mart play..BAH! Whatever! He gambled and got lucky! I guess I am not at the point yet were I would give credit to teams for beating us, more like, we hand over games due to non-execution.
Cheers, dude!
March 24, 2008 at 7:05 pm
FLUX,
My tone is my tone. You are free to describe it in whichever way you wish. That’s your perception and you are entitled to it.
When I choose to place my avatar next to my name that should give you a better sense of who it is you’re dealing with in me.
And, no … the name is not Pakistani. :-)
Live Long and Prosper.
March 24, 2008 at 8:26 pm
FLUX,
re: the terrific defensive play made by Kenyon Martin
Is this too, perhaps, an example of what you might choose to describe as … a player who just ‘gambled and got lucky’ …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_RJ5XN8TK8&feature=related
Hopefully not. :-)
March 24, 2008 at 9:01 pm
HAHAHAHA!!
Trying to get me going, ha? I’m assuming that’s Zeke dig?!
That is a completely different scenario. Mostly involving less intelligent team mates?.
re: K-Marts slot machine pull in TO
Upon further visual inspection, it official (from the booth) K-mart’s steal comes down to the GAMBLED AND GOT LUCKY catergory:
1. CB4 blows/gets by Martin. Momentarily slowed by Camby.
2. Martin proceeds to swipe (GAMBLE with 5 fouls) at Bosh’s extended arm, and then getting (luckily) the ball. 9/10 times that’s a hack!
3. Help yourself, watch in slow motion: http://video.aol.com/video-detail/steal-of-the-night-kenyon-martin/1358356422
March 24, 2008 at 10:08 pm
A clear case of George Karl’s perspective (i.e. an ‘outstanding defensive play’) not being shared by you.
C’est la vie.
March 24, 2008 at 11:09 pm
The same G.K. that couldn’t get it done with Shawn?
The same G.K. that couldn’t get it done with a great Bucks team?
The same G.K. that ran Team USA into the ground?
The same G.K. that is about to not make the playoffs with Camby, Melo and AI?
The same G.K. that has 9 1st round exists in a 20 year career?
That G.K.? What the f does he know about basketball?
March 25, 2008 at 1:03 am
FLUX,
Please excuse the condescending tone but … whatever little George Karl knows about the game, after being involved in it for his entire adult life, as an elite level basketball coach, who also played at North Carolina for a pretty fair practicioner, and in the ABA/NBA, there’s a descent chance that he’s forgotten more basketball than you will ever know in your lifetime.
But, then again, I could always be wrong about that, too.
http://www.nba.com/coachfile/george_karl/
Absolutely … hilarious … stuff.
:-)
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