Microsoft Doesn’t Care About Clubs
In college, I spent a lot of time writing. I started as a humor columnist for the student newspaper and a staff writer for the campus humor magazine – the venerable Dartmouth Jack’O Lantern, whose previous staff members include Dr. Seuss (Dartmouth class of ’25). I eventually worked myself up to become editor-in-chief.
My senior year, a few months after reaching the apex of college humor writing career, I interviewed for a competitive project manager position at Microsoft. After surviving the resume screen and two rounds of interviews at Dartmouth, I was flown out to Redmond, where I went through six more rounds of interviewing.
Guess how many times my impressive, time-consuming extracurricular activity was discussed?
Zero times.
I didn’t mind, because I didn’t expect it to be mentioned. I had worked on the Jacko because, from an early age, I had an unhealthy obsession with the tradition of Ivy League humor magazines. I wrote for the Jacko because I loved it. It had no effect on my job hunting.
A Dangerous Idea
This article proposes a dangerous idea: Outside of a few exceptions, college extracurriculars are of minor importance to your efforts to find a job after graduation. There is no benefit to be gained by suffering through an overwhelming load of activities at the college level.
Below, I briefly explain, to the best of my understanding, the role activities play in the job hunting process. I’ll then cover graduate and professional school admissions, and conclude with a recommendation for how to better integrate extracurriculars into your college life.
How to Get Hired
For many jobs, the hiring process proceeds as follows:
- Your grades, where you went to school, and to a lesser extent, your major, are used to decide whether or not you’re someone they might want to hire.
- If you pass the above screen, you’ll be interviewed. If the job is in finance, consulting, or is at a famous tech firm like Microsoft or Google, there will be a formal series of interviews to test your ability to think on your feet. If it’s a smaller firm, the interview will be more informal. The goal is to see if you can express yourself well, seem like a good person, understand their business, and, in general, are not a jerk.
- A hiring decision is made.
What role do activities play in the above? A minor one.
As mentioned in my story, the mega-firms don’t care. They’ll rely on their own battery of brutal interrogations to test your mettle. For other companies, your activities, at best, add a little bit of personality color. It’s nice, but not nearly as important as your grades, where you went to school, and your interview performance.
For example, it helps to have done something outside of classes, as the absence of any activities will make you seem boring and anti-social. It might also give you a bit of a boost to have a leadership role in a club, because this shows that you can manage people. Google, I’ve heard, likes people who did something quirky, because they think this makes their workplace more innovative.
But there are minor nudges: like having a good handshake, or making good small talk at the beginning of an interview. The key point is that having a huge slate of demanding activities — unlike, for example, when applying to college — does not make this nudge stronger.
(Certainly, there are some exceptions. If you want to be a journalist, it matters that you work yourself up to an editorial position in your campus paper. This is tough. Similarly, if you’re at Harvard, and want to write for The Simpsons, put your focus on the Lampoon. But I’ll assume if you’re going for one of these types of jobs you already know what you need to do.)
Other Factors that Count
Other factors, of course, are also important to get hired. Many industries like to see relevant work experience. If you want to be a banker, for example, it’s important that you try to intern in the field during your summer breaks. Similarly, if you want to work in development, intern at your college’s development office.
And to be honest, a large number of you will likely find your first job either through a personal connection or a previous internship with the company. Again, your activities don’t enter the equation.
Graduate and Professional Schools
What about graduate school? As we’ve discussed before, all that matters for graduate school is that you did research. The professors who make the decisions don’t care about non-research related activities. I was at MIT for a year before my advisor figured out I had written a book.
For medical school, you do need to prove that you know what medicine is really about, and you are not just applying because your mom likes the idea of a doctor in the family. This means some sort of involvement in medicine-related fields — be it research, internships, or volunteering. Many applicants do this during their summers.
For law school, it’s all about having high enough grades and LSAT scores.
The Implications
Remember this mantra: college is not high school. There are no admissions officers in your future who are going to pour over your extracurricular activities and come up with a subjective score that will determine whether or not you get to move on to the next stage. What you do outside of your classes will play only a minor role in landing a job after graduation. And doing lots of hard things will probably not add an appreciable advantage over doing one or two things you really liked.
My advice:
- Join a small number of activities that interest you and that surround you with interesting people.
- Don’t do a large number of activities.
- If you ever feel stressed or overwhelmed by extracurricular obligations: cut back! Their is no reason for activities to cause you hardship. Their main purpose is a source of happiness for you.
This lesson is tough for some to swallow. The lingering impact of the college admissions process is hard to shake. But you must. It’s okay not to feel overwhelmed. It’s okay to actually have free time. It’s okay to simplify and try a life that’s a little more zen. Your future bosses simply don’t care about that extra volunteer gig you are trying to squeeze into your schedule. So let it go. Make your extracurriculars, as tough as this may be, about you — not some vague plan for what you want to achieve down the road.
I’m interested in your thoughts? Are you a college student that feels overwhelmed with activities? If so, why do you think you are doing so much?
I agree with this on some level. However, some extracurriculars might be beneficial; for example, when applying to grad schools in the field of education, it might be helpful if you’re particularly involved if you plan on going into higher ed.
I’ve e-mailed you before about activities. Although I’m running the Journal of Undergraduate Research at my school this upcoming year, I’m also continuing my work on two advisory boards and an interfaith dialogue group, mostly because I like the people and the work. I think a large part of it too is what KIND of extracurricular it is.
For example, the advisory boards include students, faculty, and administrators. It’s a great way to make connections on campus to get things done or other personal enrichment. I’m also taking a large role in developing a leadership program through our Dean of Students’ office, organizing and planning the annual leadership conference through a national company, and creating a strategic plan for the department.
I’m arguing that it’s about quality. And for some students, such as those who may perhaps be going into Americorps, Teach for America/Teaching Fellows, nonprofits, university positions, etc., extracurriculars – a select, quality few – will really be a boost. I do agree that for specific fields – banking, computer science, law, medicine – extracurriculars mean very little. And I also agree that simplification is the name of the game.
@Jess:
As you’ve probably guessed, I made the title of my post as provocative as possible! But I agree with you that meeting important people is a great reason to do an extracurricular. As before, of course, there’s still no good justification for doing too many such activities.
As far as I can tell, for aspiring reporters (as opposed to aspiring editors) clippings are more important than editorial positions. I’ve been asking around for a few years, and a lot of industry folks claim not to care where you are in the hierarchy of your paper, so long as you can prove that you spent a lot of your life on it. Those at the top often don’t get to write much, because they’re busy managing other people. And if instead of managing younger writers you are freelancing for non-student publications, you’ll be two steps ahead.
I would say that another exception might be varsity athletics. I was a varsity rower at a top liberal arts college and in applying to jobs in the corporate world (finance and paralegal jobs), I found it was usually brought up by interviewers and looked upon as a positive. It was extremely helpful as an example of time management, teamwork and such. On the other hand, in applying to a PhD program in the humanities, I doubt it had as much cache, but I do think it was again helpful as a demonstration of commitment/focus/etc.
I rowed for some of my time at Dartmouth, and definitely saw graduating seniors use the athletic connection to their advantage.
The message that seems to be coming up again and again in these comments, is that it’s good to do something that you like and is a good reflection of your personality, as these come up in interviews when they try to assess if you’ll be a good fit. We all still seem in agreement, however, that doing a large volume of things serves little purpose.
Hey Cal,
I definitely like this article. I always felt there wasn’t much of a difference of the importance of extracurriculars in high school compared to undergrad, but your post clears it up. Of course I will participate in extracurricular activities based on my own interest and to gain experience, but the fact that I don’t have to worry about doing this for graduate school admissions lays off a huge burden.
Thanks!
hi Cal,
I couldn’t agree more with your post. I go to a top 5 medical school and basically did zero in terms of extracurriculars in undergrad. I spent my time securing A’s in my classes, acing the MCAT, and doing a couple of cool research projects. During the summers, I took on paid internships that showed I had an interest in medicine. I guess the secret is just to do whatever you want, but to make sure that you are doing it well.
cheers
Your argument may be valid for most areas, but with regard to tech-related fields, I couldn’t disagree more. For example, the knowledge-base of the field of software development increases exponentially faster than any college can teach. Many fresh CS grads lack the skills necessary to be effective, such as experience with version control or worthwhile project-management.
That being said, grades and the sticker-shock of a degree are very important. However, getting hired by Google or Microsoft depends increasingly on your haste in answering a programming question or knowing how to use Subversion.
I would argue that this falls under the category of relevant work experience. As mentioned, jobs that require certain skills appreciate it if you’ve had summer jobs or internships that developed those skills.
I can see your point, however, in that you could also build those skills, for example, participating in campus programming contest or starting a software company (though I would also count the latter as a job).
We still agree, however, that doing *lots* of activities still provides no advantage…
I’ve heard this same story multiple times. It seems the formula for getting into med school:
Mere observation: people that are disagreeing w/ this post, are disagreeing with the title of the post and not so much the content of the post. This is the risk we run when we sensationalize our post titles :o).
True story: One of the reasons I got my first job is because I submitted one of my published short stories as a writing sample. My future boss read it, was moved, and said, “I have to have that guy working for me.”
Also true: I haven’t written any fiction since I graduated. Only non-fiction and poetry.
Very true. But I like disagreement, it tends to shake forth more insights then agreement 🙂
I think this reinforces the theme that keep popping up again and again in the article and these comments. Doing something interesting and that reflects your personality = good. Doing so many things that you constantly feel overwhelmed = not good.
(Out of curiosity, was it a D.E. Shaw guy who was the boss you’re talking about? It sounds like they run a really interesting shop over there, especially in the special project groups.)
@NewWorldOrder: I’m not disagreeing with the post title. In fact, to a large extent, it makes sense – real world experience (in some cases) and grades really do reign. And as a former pre-law student, I know well that LSAT/MCAT/PCAT/GMAT/etc. scores are extremely important. But like I said, I’m arguing that quality over quantity is essential, and that extracurriculars can be helpful down the road for various things like connections and networking (or at least, it’s an important aspect at my school).
Great post, though – these Dangerous Ideas are really thought-provoking and make me question my initial beliefs about college and the working world.
For the most part, I agree. However, I think there are other instances in which extracurriculars are important. For example, if you want to do internships or fellowships, or are hoping to score some sweet scholarships, then you need to have an “edge.” I am one of those people who are super-involved in clubs and other extracurriculars, and this level of commitment got me into a killer internship (which then led to several other internships). It also got me a Campus Involvement Scholarship. Had I not had this experience, I don’t think I ever would have gotten that first internship, because my resume would have looked like everyone else’s. I’m sure that my internships and other experiences will have similar weight when I apply for grad school or jobs. So, I agree that clubs and extracurriculars will not have a DIRECT effect on your post-grad life, but it can certainly start a positive chain reaction.
I love this post. I recently took on an internship that I intend to continue during the school year, but this commitment will cut into the time that I have available for my extra-curricular activities. I was elected president of one club and secretary of two other clubs before school let out (before I knew that I would land this fantastic internship). Thank you for this post… now I just need to find a way to classily squeeze out of those positions…
Hi,
I’m currently in high school (or at least equivalent of American “high schools” here in Singapore) and am interested in entering a top American college. Would you say the same for extracurriculars in high school?
After re-reading this article, I’m a little confused on applying the tips in this article if you want to go to medical school. Does this mean that when sending in your application to a reputable medical school, extracurriculars, any leadership positions, volunteering, etc, aren’t significant? Don’t these activities show how responsible one is (just like how they do when applying to undergrad schools)?
Why aren’t extracurriculars emphasized?
Dangerous idea, all right.
I guess we all have to reevaluate our extracurriculars just to see if they actually have meaning.
Personally, I’m very careful with my extracurriculars. The ones I’ve picked are important to me but don’t involve a lot of time (teaching a kindergarten class every other week, playing violin every other week for weddings and other stuff, and a supervisory council position). I do take freelance jobs in my hobby, but those can be scheduled in as well.
With school clubs though, I generally wouldn’t touch them with a ten-foot pole. I don’t know about other schools, but I feel the ones in my school aren’t very efficient. Too many meetings with no real agendas, and too much effort spent on unimportant things.
@Rachel: How do you that the NUMBER of extracurriculars were the determining factor in scoring that internship? Perhaps, one specific activity helped more than the others.
Relating to extra-curricular activities and med-school, I have a few questions for Cal and anyone on this board. How do you distinguish yourself if you’re competing for a slot in med school with at least three hundred 4.0 students (especially those coming from grade-inflated schools)? What other objective criteria can med school admission officers possibly use really besides GPA and MCAT scores to select candidates in this case?
Can one actually elevate himself to a certain degree above the randomness of med school admissions? In other words, is it possible to get into more than one med school when applying provided one is NOT a minority or even, in some cases, a women (as women in science seem to be in demand, at least according to one scientific journal I read.) Or is it just random for everyone equally?
My initial reaction is the latter. But I know at least one person who is going to a Top-Tier med school for FREE (yes, that’s possible) and who had more than med school eager to get her. From my knowledge, she participated in extracurriculars and held positions as a student teacher, but didn’t necessarily achieve anything that seemingly defied the odds. This seems to suggest that it is indeed possible to make oneself good enough to attract this much attention and somehow elevate oneself above the randomness of med school selections.
On the other hand, if everyone discovered how to get this kind of attention from med schools, than the opportunity to do so would disappear. Most pre-meds I’ve been around seem to believe that this attention comes from getting a 4.0 and acing, but are they really right? Are there just so few straight-A students applying to med school that the ones who do get 4.0’s get top priority on the admission scale or that there are only a select few non-grind 4.0 students who in addition to acing their courses, really have had time to pursue extra-curricular activities to demonstrate their interest in medicine?
Sorry for the length of this post. I hope it sparks a bit of discussion though about extra-curriculars and what general role they play in the context of med school admissions. My theory is that somehow you can use ECs and study hacks to elevate yourself above the randomness of med-school admissions but I may just be greatly mistaken.
I do a lot of extracurriculars. Most of them are for my own interest and meet only intermittently, being commitments that take over your life completely for one week but don’t exist for the rest of the semester. The one that isn’t is my volunteering work, which is a weekly commitment that I mainly do because I feel like I should do it (paying off bad karma debts, etc. etc.) Logically, when it all gets too much, volunteering should be the activity that heads off to the chopping block, because it takes the most time, and I’m really not interested in it as an activity in its own sake. But it never happens, because I always feel guilty about cutting off my support for good causes and disadvantaged members of society, and I don’t have the money to show support in other ways. So the option is either cutting out one of my own-interest extracurriculars, which I don’t really want to do, or having less free time. The ‘less free time’ option almost always wins.
So anyway, the point of the above, which wasn’t expressed clearly, is that while the volunteering gig is pretty meaningless for me/my future employers, and a rather large time sink, I do it anyway because it’s meaningful for someone else, and I believe that it’s therefore worth the stress.
I’d like for anyone to answer David’s questions too, as they seem to bring about a possible loophole and disturbance in the points brought about in this article all together..
Good timing with this question! See today’s post on low stress med school admissions.
The subtle assumption here is that it’s normal for you to have a large number of “self-interest” extracurriculars. But let’s trouble that for a moment. What if you did the volunteering and, at most, one other “self-interest” activity? You would have free time again. Would this scuttle your chances at success in life? That’s what my article tackles. I’m not saying this is what you should do, I’m just trying to point out where the multiple activity assumption has slipped into the discussion.
See today’s post on low-stress med school admissions. But to give the short answer: No, med schools aren’t interested in leadership or how responsible you are. They are more interested that you have legitimate interest in medicine and a realistic understanding of the lifestyle. This means you need activities that not only expose you to some aspect of this world but that highlight a real interest in it. As I suggest in my article, this is efficiently achieved in the summer. Clubs and volunteering gigs during the semester add more stress than they’re worth.
@Daisy:
Excellent!
I ultimately agree with Cal that you should not overwhelm yourself with ECAs, but I disagree with his thesis: college extracurriculars are only as important as you want them to be.
Beyond school, major, and grades, extracurriculars are the only way to differentiate yourself from other job candidates. ECAs also provide the kind of practical learning that you cannot find in the classroom: managing people, running an organization, exposure outside of academia. This is particularly important for “fit” interviews, when interviewers ask about past experiences that demonstrate the values they’re looking for. ECAs provide you with these experiences.
Most importantly, ECAs allow for the kind of networking that really helps you land a job. The best way to prepare for interviews is to call up friends who already work for the company that’s interviewing you. Many people make lasting friendships through their ECAs. It also works the other way; friends made through ECAs have worked with you before, so they know the value that you can add to their company.
Cal’s advice is still well taken. Don’t do ECAs for dumb reasons, i.e. just to put it on your resume, to move up the social ladder, to feel busy. And don’t overwhelm yourself unnecessarily.
But when you graduate from college, you want to relish the interesting things you did in college, not a number on a piece of paper. Some do cool things in their classes, and that’s great. But most do cool things outside of their classes, and that’s what extracurriculars are for.
@Ryan:
I think we agree on the broad strokes here. I might argue that one or, at most, two ECAs that you really committed to can basically provide all of the advantages you describe above. I guess the better title for my post would have been: “multiple college ECAs are meaningless.” The volume-centric “wow” effect students go after just doesn’t play a large role after high school.
THANKYOUUU!!! I am SO sick of people telling me things like “Well, grades aren’t as important as XXX” or “You have to build your resume”. My parents were semi-right all along. GRADES are important. I got into the GOOD school, now I need the grades. I spent a bit of time letting people talk me into thinking grades weren’t important, but I started to realize they are. What my parents still don’t get is that anything I do extra needs to be for me. It encourages growth so if I do get the interview, I am able to sell myself. But atleast now, I am going to be dropping SEVERAL extra activities. I have been doing BS for all the wrong reasons as a freshmen.
Hey, I hope youre still reading these comments!
Were you part of a fraternity Cal? What do you think about the whole rush process, especially for new students? The idea of meeting & staying with a whole group of friends throughout college sounds good, even I’ll get treated pretty shittily in the beginning. But I don’t know how time-consuming the entire initiation process is.
I wasn’t. Pledging can be time-consuming, but it doesn’t last that long in the grand scheme of college. The key with frats, in my opinion, is to make sure that their overall attitude toward school, life, accomplishment, etc more or less aligns with yours. If so, then it’s a nice addition to your social life. If not, the tension can prove hard.
Hey Cal,
Thank you for writing this article. I am currently a sophomore considering either to major in finance or accounting.. After reading this article, it got me thinking of whether I should be a Volunteer Income Tax Assistant next semester. I would have to commit to some self studying of various online tax lessons before taking a test. After passing the test, I will gain hands on experience filing taxes for the underprivileged areas in the Bronx, where most people may not have the privileges of an education to know how to file taxes. Since my major is possibly accounting, I believe that enduring in extracurricular activities such as this one might be favorable to job prospects. Employers in my opinion would like to see that students have the ability to manage their time and that they are not just all about the school work. I am also the treasurer of a culture club in my school. My philosophy is that in order to have a successful interview for a job, I should be able to talk about times where I exercised leadership and teamwork. Being a club leader allows me to talk to employers about experiences where I solved problem in a group environment. After I talk about how I resolved the issue, I can mention what I learned from the experience. It is important to talk about what I have learned from the experience, because the skills obtained from solving difficult situations are transferable to the new job.
I like that your article mentioned “It’s nice, but not nearly as important as your grades, where you went to school, and your interview performance.” I agree especially with the part where interview performance is important. But ultimately, to have a successful interview, the applicants need to know their resume well and have extracurricular to engage the interviewer.
I agree with you that extracurriculars are bad if it starts to have a negative impact on the student’s grades. That is why college students should read your Red Book to learn how to time manage better. Btw, thank you for writing the book, I was able to perform better in all my classes and balance out my club activities well along with that.
Best,
Billy
Hi Cal, you provide really helpful advice to students, and I have all your books now:) Have you ever considered writing something about successful transfer students in college? Recently there are many students trying to transfer to better schools including me, but the lack of real life examples undermines my confidence in that. After reading your relaxed lifestyle, I wonder if these principles still apply to transfer admissions. Thank you!
I completely agree with your main point: excessive extracurriculars do not give you a better chance at getting a job. But I would like to add a bit of insight about how extracurriculars can make you more successful beyond the hiring process.
Getting hired for your first position out of college is only half the battle. After that, you have to prove yourself by performing well and becoming a valuable part of your company’s team. Succeeding at work requires all kinds of intangible skills like leadership, management, teamwork, and communication skills. Every club or student organization I participated in during my college years was like a miniature corporation. Being involved in these organizations taught me how to fit into a team, how to work with people who had different talents and personality styles, and how to focus on contributing to a whole organization’s success, rather than just my personal success. It even taught me simple administrative skills, like how a meeting is conducted, how people make decisions as a group, how to coordinate everyone’s schedules, and how to make arrangements for large events. I went into the working world confident in my own ability to work as part of team, to contribute valuable ideas, and to take charge wherever I see a need. And it’s not just my own confidence that has benefited; my employers have told me that they value these traits in me too. If I had to choose between keeping the experience/skills gained in my college classes or in my college extracurriculars, I would choose extracurriculars, hands-down.
I see so many people in my generation worrying about just GETTING a job, as if there’s some secret formula to getting hired and once you do, you can sit back and relax. We really need to come at the issue from a different perspective. We need to teach students how to be creative and productive members of a team. If you are always putting forth your best effort, taking pride in your work, sharing ideas about things you are passionate about, and reaching for new opportunities, then indicators of success, like salary, position, promotions, etc., will inevitably follow.
This article really helped me a lot. I got into a great university without much extra curricular but I got worried in my first year of college. I joined so many organizations even those that aren’t my interest. It came to a point I got so stressed and it affected my academic performance. Thus, I decided to quit some of those organizations which only treats its members like slaves/workers.
I think the trick here is to choose what interests you and could benefit you.
I usually don’t reply to no-name blogs, but I just need to mention that I applied to some internships at Ford and they explicitly mention that a preferred qualification are engineering extracurriculars, especially Formula SAE or whatever it’s called.
Firstly, i’d like to state that I truly enjoyed this read, it was very informative and i feel as though i will use this information to succeed during and after college. I’m a first semester Crime Scene student and i have yet to get involved in any extracurricular activities on campus, but with the knowledge learned from this blog i’ll be sure to keep the activities to a minimum so that i’m not overwhelmed.
I’m interested in your thoughts? Are you a college student that feels overwhelmed with activities? If so, why do you think you are doing so much?