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Are Blogs Changing The Discourse on Iraq?

As always, I speak for me only

Matt Stoller claims:

A shorter way thinking about the of blogs on politics is to recognize that the elite stream of opinion - that of policymakers, elites, politicians, journalists - is largely out of step with the public. Blogs play in the space between the elite stream of discourse and the discussions going on in bars and over kitchen tables. . . . Blogs are still going to push on public discourse to make it more credible and in step with the public mood.

On Iraq, the Left blogs have largely failed to do this. And Matt Stoller is one of the main culprits. Consider this:

As far as I'm concerned, passing this legislation is an important part of disengaging the Democratic party from the pro-war brand, so a vote against it is a problem. That said, I'm more charitable to progressives who vote against it as a mechanism for creating left-wing pressure, though I have serious reservations about the progressive caucus as an (dis) organized group.

Sounds like the "idiot liberals" CW meme to me. What discourse is Stoller changing on Iraq? He is spouting the DC Dem Establishment line as far as I can see see.

I think Matt suffers from a phenomenon described well by a commenter at Gun Toting Liberal:

[T]he whole “boy, we are all that” mentality is, in a word, boring. Give me the passion of a position well defended, anytime.

And he is wrong on the substance. Consider his critique of Joe Sestak:

He has also proposed his own legislation which would fix a withdrawal date. Still, here's why I'm keeping Sestak on the list. In late February, he stabbed Murtha in the back in the Washington Post with a right-wing frame.
Freshman Rep. Joe Sestak (D-Pa.), a retired Navy admiral who was propelled into politics by the Iraq war, said Murtha could still salvage elements of his strategy, but Sestak, an outspoken war opponent, is "a bit wary" of a proposal that would influence military operations. [. . .]
Ratifying the idea that Congress has no place in military affairs and that the Murtha legislation meddles in military strategy is not appropriate for a progressive, so he's not really in that camp. I don't think his legislation on withdrawal is particularly useful as anything but a communications strategy . . .

What a remarkable statement. That Sestak is absolutely correct apparently is of no importance to Stoller:

Let us consider the arguments presented by the law professors. They list the relevant enumerated Article 1 powers:

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or officer thereof.

After listing these powers, the law professors summarily conclude that

The provisions plainly set forth an extensive role for Congress that goes far beyond the initial decision of declaring war and subsequent decisions regarding its funding. This mass of war powers confers on Congress an ongoing regulatory authority with respect to the war.

Indeed it does. But these powers DO NOT confer the power to direct the conduct of the war. The law professors are performing a disingenuous sleight of hand here. Their next paragraph demonstrates this:

As Commander in Chief, the President's role is to prosecute the war that Congress has authorized within the legitimate parameters Congress has set forth.

Of course here is the rub, Congress gave President Bush a blank check in Iraq. The legitimate parameters are "to use the Armed Forces as he deems necessary and appropriate to defend the national security of the United States . . ." To alter these parameters, the Congress MUST repeal the Iraq Authorization To Use Military Force. Some have argued that President Bush requires an additional force authorization because the Iraq AUMF was for defeating Saddam. This is preposterous. The Congress gave Bush a blank check in Iraq. To their everlasting shame.

The law professors then cite a number of Congressional bills that limited the number of troops deployed. The problem with their examples however is that all but two was an exercise of the Spending power, which no one disputes as being within the Congress' power. And the one WARTIME exception was a 1974 law that directly limited the number of troops in Vietnam. That bill was, imo, unconstitutional. But Richard Nixon in 1974 was hardly in a position to dispute the issue. I believe it is of no precedential value.

The law professors then miscite the Steel Seizure Cases to support their argument that "the President is bound by statutory restrictions in wartime." Of course the President is bound by constitutional statutory restrictions. But the law professors wrongly imply that the Steel Seizure Cases support their argument that the Congress can impose statutory restrictions on the SPECIFIC conduct of military operations, as opposed to general rules governing the military. The Steel Seizure Cases simply do not stand for that proposition. Nor do Rasul, Hamdi and Hamdan, also cited by the law professors. Instead, Justice Jackson's concurrence, which the law professors fully endorse, expressly limited its holding to DOMESTIC restrictions:

We should not use this occasion to circumscribe, much less to contract, the lawful role of the President as Commander in Chief. I should indulge the widest latitude of interpretation to sustain his exclusive function to command the instruments of national force, at least when turned against the outside world for the security of our society. But, when it is turned inward not because of rebellion, but because of a lawful economic struggle between industry and labor, it should have no such indulgence. His command power is not such an absolute as might be implied from that office in a militaristic system, but is subject to limitations consistent with a constitutional Republic whose law and policymaking branch is a representative Congress. The purpose of lodging dual titles in one man was to insure that the civilian would control the military, not to enable the military to subordinate the presidential office. No penance would ever expiate the sin against free government of holding that a President can escape control of executive powers by law through assuming his military role. What the power of command may include I do not try to envision, but I think it is not a military prerogative, without support of law, to seize persons or property because they are important or even essential for the military and naval establishment.

Justice Jackson's differentiation between domestic and external restrictions on the Commander in Chief power is consistent with the arguments we raised regarding President Bush's violation of FISA, and it is completely in line with the understanding of the Federalist Papers.

For example, in Federalist 74, Hamilton wrote:

THE President of the United States is to be "commander-in-chief of the army and navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several States WHEN CALLED INTO THE ACTUAL SERVICE of the United States.'' . . . Of all the cares or concerns of government, the direction of war most peculiarly demands those qualities which distinguish the exercise of power by a single hand. The direction of war implies the direction of the common strength; and the power of directing and employing the common strength, forms a usual and essential part in the definition of the executive authority.

In Federalist 69, Hamilton described the division of the war power thusly:

The President is to be commander-in-chief of the army and navy of the United States. In this respect his authority would be nominally the same with that of the king of Great Britain, but in substance much inferior to it. It would amount to nothing more than the supreme command and direction of the military and naval forces, as first General and admiral of the Confederacy; while that of the British king extends to the DECLARING of war and to the RAISING and REGULATING of fleets and armies, all which, by the Constitution under consideration, would appertain to the legislature.

And the Federalist Papers also speak to the REAL questions, the ones the law professors avoided in their mad rush to defend the idea of Congressional micromanagement of the Iraq war, to wit, can Congress end the war, and if so, how? The Federalist papers provide the answer. In Federalist 24, Hamilton wrote:

that standing armies [need not] be kept up in time of peace; [n]or [is] it vested in the EXECUTIVE the whole power of levying troops, without subjecting his discretion, in any shape, to the control of the legislature. . . . [T]he whole power of raising armies was lodged in the LEGISLATURE, not in the EXECUTIVE; that this legislature was to be a popular body, consisting of the representatives of the people periodically elected; . . . there [is], in respect to this object, an important qualification even of the legislative discretion, in that clause which forbids the appropriation of money for the support of an army for any longer period than two years a precaution which, upon a nearer view of it, will appear to be a great and real security against the keeping up of troops without evident necessity.

Here Hamilton states clearly that the power to end wars resides in the Congress most clearly through the power of the purse and the EXPRESS requirement that no appropriations for a standing Army last for more than two years. In this way, any war would require a de facto reauthorization from the Congress every two years by its decision to fund the war.

In Federalist 26, Hamilton wrote:

Let us examine whether there be any comparison, in point of efficacy, between the provision alluded to and that which is contained in the new Constitution, for restraining the appropriations of money for military purposes to the period of two years. . . . The legislature of the United States will be OBLIGED, by this provision, once at least in every two years, to deliberate upon the propriety of keeping a military force on foot; to come to a new resolution on the point; and to declare their sense of the matter, by a formal vote in the face of their constituents. They are not AT LIBERTY to vest in the executive department permanent funds for the support of an army, if they were even incautious enough to be willing to repose in it so improper a confidence. . . . The provision for the support of a military force will always be a favorable topic for declamation. As often as the question comes forward, the public attention will be roused and attracted to the subject, by the party in opposition; and if the majority should be really disposed to exceed the proper limits, the community will be warned of the danger, and will have an opportunity of taking measures to guard against it. . . .

What is clear is that all this legal tapdancing get us nowhere. To end the war, the Congress can do one of two things, or preferably both: it can repeal the Iraq AUMF, and/or it can refuse to fund the war. This sophistry from Democrats, politicians and legal scholars, does neither us nor our principles credit.

Apparently the new Stoller progressive ethos does not require actually being reality based any more. But forget the legality, how about practically speaking -- if the Congress passes laws telling the President what to do in Iraq, and Bush says that is unconstitutional and he is not going to sign such a bill, then what Stoller? Good communication strategy for who Stoller? Why is he pretending this is an ACTUAL solution when he must know it is not? Sounds like the DC Dem CW to me. Is THAT expanding the discourse? I think not.

Here's the bottom line with what I am seeing from some of the Left blogs - they do not accept the reality of the situation and instead choose to go along with the basic falsehood that House Dems are moving to end the war.

As I have said too many times to count, but as I say one more time:

I ask for three things: First, announce NOW that the Democratic Congress will NOT fund the Iraq Debacle after a date certain. You pick the date. Whatever works politically. If October 2007 is the date Dems can agree to, then let it be then. If March 2008, then let that be the date; Second, spend the year reminding the President and the American People every day that Democrats will not fund the war past the date certain; Third, do NOT fund the Iraq Debacle PAST the date certain.

Some argue we will never have the votes for this. That McConnell will filibuster, that Bush will veto. To them I say I KNOW. But filbustering and vetoing does not fund the Iraq Debacle. Let me repeat, to end the war in Iraq, the Democratic Congress does not have to pass a single bill; they need only NOT pass bills that fund the Iraq Debacle.


But but but, defund the whole government? Defund the whole military? What if Bush does not pull out the troops? First, no, not defund the government, defund the Iraq Debacle. If the Republicans choose to shut down government in order to force the continuation of the Iraq Debacle, do not give in. Fight the political fight. We'll win. Second, defund the military? See answer to number one. Third, well, if you tell the American People what is coming for a year, and that Bush is on notice, that i t will be Bush abandoning the troops in Iraq, we can win that political battle too.

Understand this, if you want to end the Iraq Debacle, this is the only way until Bush is not President. If you are not for this for ending the war, tell me what you do support. I think this is the only way. And if you shy away from the only way to end the Debacle, then you really are not for ending the war are you?

That is the reality. If Matt and the Dems are basically arguing that Dems should use Iraq as a political issue for 2008, then just says so. That would be the honest thing to do. All this nonsensical playacting that is being done while claiming the "progressive" mantle is not only annoying, it is false.

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    MoveOn is not a blog, but this came in my email (5.00 / 1) (#9)
    by conchita on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:24:23 PM EST
    this morning, and it appears moveon has chosen to distort the situation as well:
    Dear MoveOn member,

    We've got a big decision coming up this week, and we need to make it together, as a community.

    As early as Wednesday, the House may vote on a Democratic proposal on Iraq. The proposal was put together by Speaker Pelosi and Congressmen Obey and Murtha. It is going to be a close vote--the Republicans are against it and some conservative Democrats are uncomfortable with the bill.

    Most, but not all, of the progressives in Congress are planning on voting for the bill. These progressives, like many of us, don't think the bill goes far enough, but see it as the first concrete step to ending the war.  And President Bush is threatening to veto it for the same reason.

    I've told Rep. Murtha that this was a decision for MoveOn's members to make. Now I'm asking you to help make it. Should we support or oppose the Democrats' plan? Just click here to register your view:

    [emphasis mine]

    The choices were support the plan/not sure/oppose the plan.  Interesting to note that Moveon did not explain what the plan is in the email.  Nor did they list which progressives would be voting for it.

    OPPOSE!!!!!! (none / 0) (#11)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:25:49 PM EST
    Thanks. I'll blog this and urge Move On members to vote OPPOSE!!!!

    Parent
    Great. Also hoping someone higher profile than I (5.00 / 1) (#29)
    by conchita on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 02:11:43 PM EST
    will put up a diary on dailykos - that will get read and recommended - explaining how misleading this email is and encouraging people to vote OPPOSE THE PLAN.

    Parent
    Move On email (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by vcmvo2 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 04:21:49 PM EST
    I already did oppose the plan. I got that email and recognized right away what they were asking. But I'm not sure most people will have been following the ins and outs of this argument very carefully...

    Parent
    Business as usual (5.00 / 1) (#30)
    by buhdydharma on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 02:28:57 PM EST
    We won the election, the Democrtas can't end the war, let's all throw up our hands and wait for two years for the war to end on its own....or for any meaningful change.

    Good thing SOME of us are too stupid to give up!

    I guess the sheep are tired of looking up and are willing to return to grazing.

    Illegitimi Non Carborundum, Amigos!

    Are Blogs Changing the Discourse on Iraq?? (5.00 / 1) (#31)
    by leoncarre on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 02:29:59 PM EST
    From me the answer to your question Are Blogs Changing the Discourse on Iraq?? is a resounding NO.

    The blogs change the tenor and substance of the blog discourse... (where there is any) but there is no connection between the blog discourse and the political discourse crucial to bring about the changes we all seek.

    I take exception to Matt Stoller's exceptional view of the blogs:

    A shorter way thinking about the of blogs on politics is to recognize that the elite stream of opinion - that of policymakers, elites, politicians, journalists - is largely out of step with the public. Blogs play in the space between the elite stream of discourse and the discussions going on in bars and over kitchen tables. . . . Blogs are still going to push on public discourse to make it more credible and in step with the public mood.

    A quick visit to blog tag clouds will show that intelligent political discussion on "the internets" is not what is happening.  Porn is what's hot on the nets.  

    The blogs are NOT the townsquare of the body politic.

    Blogs gave up on the media, and struck out on their own to create "citizen media."  When, in their disdain, they neglected to connect back with main stream media (even as much as op-eds for chrissake!) they lost the voice and input of the "common man in the street" who gets his news from TV first, newspapers second... computers are for entertainment, not information.  (tag clouds)

    Discussions going on in bars and over kitchen tables is a good point that Stoller makes, but  what is the source of information for these discussions?  And, how do these discussions, even if they are blogged about, read in real-time, real-space, real-world... Look at the universities... we all can agree that this is a population of that political blogging elite... Do you see any massive political resistance movement there?  Look at the newspapers... the only interface between the major newspapers and the blogs is to increase revenues, not to broaden the marketplace of ideas.

    Your posts are a very intelligent contribution to the crucial discourse that is fundamental to our democratic process ... and here in your post we find the community of those concerned: bloggers, legislators, newspapers, law professors...

    But whether blogs have any affect at all in changing the legislative discourse... again and again a resounding NO.  The number of legislators who use blogs for feedback is on one hand.

    MoveOn.org is late to the game... just now feeling out whether they should take a stand on the Iraq Supplemental... and they are the greatest online arm of the progressive movement... pathetic.


    I am harsh on Stoller (none / 0) (#1)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 11:03:37 AM EST
    because he is doing damage imo.

    I do not question his conscience. I question his judgment.

    And . . . (none / 0) (#2)
    by LarryInNYC on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:01:43 PM EST
    I ask for three things: First, announce NOW that the Democratic Congress will NOT fund the Iraq Debacle after a date certain. You pick the date. Whatever works politically.

    How does it get decided 1) what does work politically and 2) whose opinion of what works political is operative?

    I don't know if any Democrats argue that it is morally or legally wrong to vote to cut off funds for the war (there may be some, but it's not an argument I've heard from them).

    Rather, it's clear that most Democrats against defunding fear the political fallout of voting to defund -- either for themselves personally or more broadly for the party.  Who decides who's right and who's wrong on the "it works politically" issue?

    I think this is the essence (5.00 / 1) (#3)
    by andgarden on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:08:27 PM EST
    of deciding "within the tent." It's also Pelosi's chance to show some leadership.

    Parent
    Well, my question (5.00 / 2) (#6)
    by LarryInNYC on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:16:36 PM EST
    actually has two parts.  The first is who is the authority that gets to decide the question of political viability.  Can we agree that someone gets to decide and everyone will fall in line?  BTD implicitly suggests that some such person must exist while at the same time suggesting that if that person doesn't decide on straight defunding then people shouldn't get in line behind her (or him).

    The other question is really "who among us can accurately predict the political viability" of any particular course of action.  It may be obvious to some people that this or that course of action will be embraced by the American electorate but it's not clear to me.  Whether a course -- defunding or anything else -- is going to work politically seems to be based on too many independent factors to be easily and confidently analyzed.

    Parent

    This ties into my question (5.00 / 1) (#16)
    by Maryb2004 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:41:50 PM EST
    from one the many diaries on this plan (BTD will hopefully forgive me for saying they all run together in my mind).

    I've rethought my postion that the actual date has to be part of BTD's plan. Too many details spoil the message, let them pick the date.

    But it is going to be a major political issue.  Part of the plan is to give the Dems cover so that they can say that it was the President's CHOICE.  So it can't be an unreasonably close date. But I remain concerned that the date can't be too far out.  I doubt the Dems can hold together that long, stay on message (which is an essential part of the plan) and not blink at the end. And the danger that they will fall apart increases as we move into 2008 and the primary season.

    Parent

    Ok (none / 0) (#17)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:45:00 PM EST
    March 2008.

    Does that make my proposal palatable now?

    Honestly, I still don;t get your point on this.

    Yes, A date certain is critical. I've always said so.

    I thought it an easier sell if THE date was left for Congress to decide.

    This seems so obvious to me. What am I missing?

    Parent

    Maybe what I'M missing (5.00 / 1) (#19)
    by Maryb2004 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:56:16 PM EST
    is that your only intent is to sell your plan and never discuss how the people who adopt your plan could best make it work?

    I said above that I retracted my suggestion that a date be included IN the plan because too many details spoil the message.  So,honestly, I don't get why you think we disagree on that. The message is:  Adopt this plan.

    I take it that you don't want to discuss how the plan would actually be implemented IF you manage to sell it? Or does that come later?  Just let me know and that's when I'll show up.

    And my position all along has been that March 2008 won't work politically.  But I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.  And don't get all pissed off that you have to work to convince me -- I'm just like the vast majority of the American public.  High maintenance.

    Parent

    Best make it work? (none / 0) (#21)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 01:03:17 PM EST
    Adopting it makes it work Mary.

    What part of that is hard to understand.

    What date makes it work best for you?

    What date makes it best work for them?

    I still do not follow your argument at all.

    Parent

    September 2008 (none / 0) (#22)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 01:04:08 PM EST
    Does that work for you?

    Tell me what works for you?

    OR tell me this, do YOU want the Debacle to end?

    See, I did not know I had to convince you of THAT.

    Let me know if I do.

    Parent

    Don't get huffy (5.00 / 1) (#26)
    by Maryb2004 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 01:15:05 PM EST
    of course I want it to end.

    I think it's the best plan anybody yet has proposed.  But adopting a plan doesn't make the plan work. People adopt plans all the time.  It's the follow-through that matters.  

    As I understand it your plan requires the Dems to not only pick a date but then state loudly, collectively, on a regular basis, that they aren't prepared to fund after that date so it becomes the president's choice  and fault if funding doesn't occur. That gives the Dems cover from the not-supporting-our troops arguments.  And then they actually have to not blink at the end and refuse to fund after that date if the president doesn't act before that date.

    I think 2008 is too far out. They'll never hold together on message that long and there's a risk that during primary season too many of them will blink at the end (if we get to the end because they didn't stay on message and force him to act earlier).

    I think it has to be earlier -- a year from the last 2006 election might be politically viable.

    Parent

    The plan is don;t fund (none / 0) (#27)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 01:23:47 PM EST
    It works by implementation.

    that's the whole plan.

    Parent

    Got it (5.00 / 1) (#28)
    by Maryb2004 on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 01:34:28 PM EST
    I'll be back when we get to the implementation phase.  In the meantime I'll go vote no in my moveon poll.

    Parent
    You write (none / 0) (#8)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:22:51 PM EST
    "Can we agree that someone gets to decide and everyone will fall in line?"

    No. Not now. That is a for primaries when the voters decide.

    If you mean in the Caucus, absolutely.

    And it is why my ire is directed at the Dem Leadership for caving in to the Blue Dogs.

    Larry, did you read my whole piece? Did you read my other pieces? Just read today's pieces.

    I really think you have not understood my points and the evidence I marshal in support of my argument.

    Your comments seem a nonsequitor to me. Perhaps I am missing your point.

    Parent

    No. (5.00 / 2) (#13)
    by LarryInNYC on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:36:22 PM EST
    Larry, did you read my whole piece? Did you read my other pieces? Just read today's pieces.

    I should make it clear that I have not read all of your pieces on this subject nor the expanding web of links that I think are necessary to have a full command of your arguments.  For that reason, I've tried to refrain from commenting on the pieces that I have read -- I'm not sufficiently familiar with the material to be confident in my own opinions to the extent I even have opinions in this area.  And I should further say that this is an area (as opposed, say, to NYC mayoral politics) in which I don't have a great deal of confidence in my own opinions anyway.

    However, in this particular case I see a hole in your logic.  If you are willing to allow Congressional Democrats to select "whatever date works politically" how to you respond to those who say "no date certain works politically"?  Because I believe the argument is mostly over politics, not the underlying rightness or wrongness of ending the war.

    Parent

    Easily (5.00 / 2) (#15)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:40:20 PM EST
    Because the flexibility I grant them is based on the SURE notion that 60% of Aemricans want a date certain.

    Do not confuse my flexibility on the date as flexibility on the goal- ending the war with Bush as President.

    the next POresident will not just shut it down Larry. The time to end the war is now with the clear mandate of the 2006 election.

    Parent

    Politics is what is important - not! (5.00 / 1) (#7)
    by dkmich on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:21:40 PM EST
    How much do we pay them to protect themsleves while they allow how many people to die or get blown up?  
    Do something every day that you don't want to do; this is the golden rule for acquiring the habit of doing your duty without pain.   Mark Twain
     Duty, now there's a quaint thought. Too bad Democrats (and Republicans) don't do their duty as well as they make the troops do theirs.

    Parent
    My point is (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:24:54 PM EST
    politics is not important to US, the blogs, NOW!

    In 2008, in the middle of an election, you can argue we fall in line. Not now. Not on Iraq.

    No progressive would be arguing what Stoller is argung. He is an Inside the Beltway DC Dem now. He should stop pretending to be something different.

    BTW, the politics he argues for is idiotic as well.

    Parent

    Who decides? (none / 0) (#4)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:13:32 PM EST
    They decide.

    WE decide whether we agree with them or not. We urge them to do what WE thinkis right, not just nod our heads and "clap louder" when they do what we believe to be the wrong thing.

    What we do NOT do is falsely pretend they are doing anything that will end the war.

    Matt Stoller pretends they are doing that while ALSO pretending to be upholding the progressive mantle on Iraq.

    Surely you see MY objection to his disingenuous tactics don't you?

    Parent

    My last graf (none / 0) (#5)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:14:34 PM EST
    "Understand this, if you want to end the Iraq Debacle, this is the only way until Bush is not President. If you are not for this for ending the war, tell me what you do support. I think this is the only way. And if you shy away from the only way to end the Debacle, then you really are not for ending the war are you?"

    you do not disagree with me on this do you?

    Indeed, your argument is very different from Stoller's. Yours is an honest one.

    Parent

    Well. . . (none / 0) (#12)
    by LarryInNYC on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:29:38 PM EST
    I'll say this -- certainly no other proposal put forth in the Congress is as likely as defunding to end the war.  I say that because I'm not convinced that the Bush Administration will not be able to weasle around a defunding bill also.  They are shameless.

    I have heard one proposal, not seriously considered in Congress, that I think would be more likely to end the war and it came from Joe Lieberman, of all people.  If the Congress cannot defund the war, they should fund it with an income tax surcharge calculated to pay the current war costs ($200 billion a year, or whatever) and to recover the costs for the last four years.  That is likely to wind the war up pretty fast.

    So I have no argument with you concerning defunding.  I'm in favor of pretty much any anti-war legislation, including defunding, as long as it meets your test of political viability.  That last bit is the sticking point.

    Parent

    Leberman's proposal (none / 0) (#14)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:37:46 PM EST
    does NOT condition the war's funding on passing the tax bill.

    You are just plain wrong on this.

    Parent

    Perhaps I should have said. . . (none / 0) (#18)
    by LarryInNYC on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 12:46:04 PM EST
    based on his proposal.  It also does not call for fully funding the war from taxes nor does it call for recouping the past costs of the war.  Nor do I believe that if it looked like the tax proposal would bring the war to an end would Lieberman support it.

    However, I think that the seeming low level of interest among the American people (notwithstanding the polls) in actually ending the war is a product of it's no-cost-to-us nature and the volunteer military that mean that casualties largely remain within the pro-military, pro-war part of the population.

    Make us pay and I think the "whatever" attitude would change quickly.

    Whatever prescription you favor for bringing the war to an end can we agree that such a goal would be easier to acheive with the American people firmly and vocally behind it?

    Parent

    Great (none / 0) (#20)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 01:01:42 PM EST
    Blue Dogs oppose it.

    McConnell filibusters it.

    Bush vetoes it.

    Then what?

    Parent

    Are you talking about my tax proposal? (none / 0) (#23)
    by LarryInNYC on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 01:05:52 PM EST
    I'm not serious -- no one is ever going to propose a tax increase for any reason, even if it's never actually intended to be collected.  I have no real proposal that I think will end the war -- I like yours but I don't think it will pass.

    However:

    Blue Dogs oppose it.
    McConnell filibusters it.
    Bush vetoes it.
    Then what?

    This sounds like a description of what Stoller says will happen to your proposal -- a proposal that, unlike mine, is serious.  So, then what?

    Parent

    Yes that is what Stoller says (none / 0) (#24)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 01:10:00 PM EST
    and shows he is ignorant about my proposal.

    My proposal requires passage of NO bills.

    Please read my proposal again and try to understand it.

    Just because Stoller does not does not mean you can not.

    Try reading it Larry. Seriously.

    Parent

    Alright. (none / 0) (#25)
    by LarryInNYC on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 01:11:47 PM EST
    I'll try.

    Parent
    It's a political no-brainer (none / 0) (#32)
    by walt on Sun Mar 18, 2007 at 04:06:22 PM EST
    I went to the Blue Dog website & got a list of the names.  I already know the rethuglicans.

    There is no downside for those who support the war.  There is no negative or difficult or testy thing that can or will happen to GOoPerz or the Blue Dogs as a result of standing pat & letting the war go on & on & on.

    It's unlikely that any of these representatives will take any heat for simply laying low.  And this can be extended right up the seniority ladder to Speaker Pelosi.  Nothing bad happens by her inaction.  The lame stream media is not going to "expose" the way in which Democratic Party members fail to implement the will of the voters.  And the voters are not overly motivated to do anything more activist than answer an opinion poll.  And it will all be consumed by other issues as the presidential campaigns & the 2008 election comes closer.

    In fact, the smooth political maneuver is to do nothing & let any decisions about stopping or funding the occupation of Iraq simply fade into oblivion--avoiding an up or down vote makes it so EASY.

    There is no will, so there is no way.

    Pathetic.