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Was Bill Clinton A 51-49 President?

By Big Tent Democrat

That is the assertion of Harold Meyerson:
For 40 years now, since 1968, the Democrats have wandered in a political desert. From Nixon to Reagan to the current Bush, it's been a conservative era, and the genius of Bill Clinton, the most successful Democratic politician of that time, was primarily defensive -. . . The times themselves mandated incrementalism and triangulation, wars without movement fought behind battlements and moats, and no one learned the lessons of that era more brilliantly than Hillary Clinton. In a 51 to 49 nation, she is probably the best the Democrats have to offer.
I think it is interesting that Bill Clinton actually won his elections by 5 and 9 points and yet someone like Meyerson talks as if Clinton was a 51-49 President. I also think it is interesting that Meyerson does not for a moment consider the SIMILARITIES between the Obama campaign and the Clinton campaign of 1992 especially. There is a willful blindness to this from some circles. More . . .

Meyerson writes:
Now that conservatism is in tatters, can they build a progressive majority that delivers us from an ideology that has led us to invest less and less in the American people? That will take a leader whose genius is not for the defensive wars of the past but for movement, for crafting a new majority, addressing the new, cross-party anxiety over America's future with a call to a common purpose, convincing us that we are divided against ourselves at our own peril. That leader may be Barack Obama, who already has shown himself more able than any American in a very long time to help us transcend some of our most crippling differences. Or it may not be Obama, not yet, not ever; his power to persuade may fail to convince his compatriots that the country must change.
(Emphasis supplied.) I want to focus on the highlighted statements. I am curious what evidence Meyerson has that Obama has convinced "America" to "transcend some of our most crippling differences." There is not much in the way of polling to suggest this. But more importantly, there is not much in the way of ISSUES that Obama is focusing on that evidences this. The second Meyerson highlighted quote is most telling:
[Obama's] power to persuade may fail to convince his compatriots that the country must change . .
Before the power to persuade can even fail it must first TRY. The empty word "change" means nothing. Obama likes to compare himself to Ronald Reagan as a transformative figure but again everyone ignores the stark differences in their campaigns and politics. Reagan ran on issues and ideas. Bad ones as most Dems agree. But he sought a mandate for REAL change on the way the government is run. Obama seeks nothing in the way of issues. He argues for no agenda. The country will not be brung together on issues UNLESS someone forcefully advocates for them Obama has not run a campaign in any way reminscent of FDR or Ronald Reagan. But Harold Meyerson says he has the potential to be a transformative figure. I agree. Obama may very well have that potential. But if he does not change his campaign style, we will never put his potential to the test.
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    I do think (5.00 / 1) (#1)
    by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:08:57 PM EST
    there is a major Obama/Clinton divide between people who think that we need a partisan fight for policy goals, and people who believe we have already won the fight and simply have to declare victory.

    I believe in a politics of contrast where we lay out an ideology and get a mandate for it, using public dissatisfaction with Bush as a way to sell them on our alternative.  Others look at Democratic gains in 2006 and expected gains this year, at polls showing people largely agree with progressive policy positions (as they have for years), and conclude that all we have to do is win an election and everything flows from there.

    I remember how the Clinton Administration quickly went off the rails following the 1992 election because people didn't have a well-grounded sense of what he intended to do and how it fit into the overall narrative of his Presidency.

    I also know that people are far, far too wedded to conservative slogans and modes of thinking, the stuff that Reagan and the conservative movement have sold them on for decades, and we need to fundamentally change people's way of thinking if we don't want to be constantly undermined by conservative sound bites on every issue.  That's going to take more than simply winning an election.

    White flag (5.00 / 1) (#10)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:40:00 PM EST
    Ok, I see our side, the Democrats putting up the white flag, my question is, have we seen a white flag on the other side? Even a peek?

    Parent
    maybe in my simplistic way (none / 0) (#5)
    by athyrio on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:25:39 PM EST
    I can see Hillary knowing how to ignore the first timers mistakes and going for the win on many social issues...which is one great reason for my support of her..

    Parent
    If you're going to quibble over math, you (5.00 / 1) (#12)
    by Geekesque on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:00:49 PM EST
    should probably point out that Clinton was a 43/39 President in 1992 and a 49-41 President in 1996.

    Third party candidate (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:28:28 PM EST
    Unless you are one of those who believe Perot won the election for Clinton.

    If you are, no need to take you seriously.

    Parent

    That's an opinion (none / 0) (#34)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:24:50 PM EST
    and like certain body parts we all have one.

    The important fact is that by having only a plurality he was somewhat hamstrung from the beginning. The Repub sweep in '94 proved that the country wasn't happy with who they had elected, even though they liked him.

    In good times people will suffer someone they see as a likable buffoon, but limit his ability to do things. The fact that Clinton was not a buffoon means nothing.

    Parent

    Pfft (none / 0) (#57)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:32:40 PM EST
    Bush felt no hamstring from his plurality victory.

    Parent
    Those were the "Bush rules" (none / 0) (#74)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:28:51 PM EST
    I recall that there was more media discussion in the '90s of Clinton not winning majorities -- and that the '92 discussion framed the debate, in some ways, of whether he could win his agenda of health care, gay rights, etc., with a fractured and fractious Dem group in Congress.  That didn't stop the Dawg from going forward with confidence, as if he had a majority and a mandate . . .

    And then we got '94 and the opposition Repug Congress ever after, until they got their Repug president, so they could go after the Constitution, pesky darn document that it is.

    Parent

    Re: (none / 0) (#75)
    by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:39:15 PM EST
    The difference is that the GOP worked very very hard to marginalize Clinton's victory from the start.  They got their noise machine to blab from day one about how he only won because of Perot, it was only a plurality and not a mandate, etc.  They sponsored a very aggressive "NOT MY PRESIDENT" campaign.  To this day you still find all kinds of people on the liberal blogs that think he only won because of Perot, because those were the days we never ever managed to counter conservative spin.

    Consider how much better they were at making Clinton's win marginal, versus Bush's 2000 win which actually WAS marginal but not persuasively portrayed as such.  And Bush's reelection, the thinnest margin ever, got sold by the press as a mandate.  We still have a lot of work to do in terms of winning the spin.

    Parent

    I didn't say Clinton FELT (none / 0) (#81)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:04:22 PM EST
    hamstrung. I said he was somewhat hamstrung.

    Bit of a difference, eh??

    Parent

    Ummm (3.50 / 2) (#14)
    by jarober on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:04:37 PM EST
    Clinton couldn't manage a majority vote against Bob Dole (just about the worst candidate ever), and Ross Perot (who was seen as quite the loon by 1996.

    That's hardly a "political genius" at work.  Then there's the loss of seats in 1994, and the net loss (1992 -- 2000) for the Democrats.  

    The reality is, Clinton was a marginal politician who is personally popular, but was not terribly effective politically.  

    Say what you will about Bush, but he's gotten a lot more of what he wanted accomplished done.  Which is one of the definitions of political success.

    political success (5.00 / 1) (#17)
    by eric on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:23:55 PM EST
    Say what you will about Bush, but he's gotten a lot more of what he wanted accomplished done.

    I think a better way of putting it is, "Bush has gotten a lot more of what he wanted to destroy, destroyed."

    Parent

    Democratic Leadership? (none / 0) (#19)
    by robrecht on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:30:41 PM EST
    "Say what you will about Bush, but he's gotten a lot more of what he wanted accomplished done.  Which is one of the definitions of political success."

    Very true.  Democrats need better leaders who don't just play games and politics.  Some people see that poential in Obama but if so it's a few eletions away IMHO.  Why do we have such a penchant for young 1st termers and newcomers?

    Parent

    one sentence: (none / 0) (#22)
    by tek on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:34:45 PM EST
    Didn't vote to go to war. That's the bloggers meme for supporting Obama. It's really a question of him being so unkown, so we don't know all his skeletons and younger people interpret that as a plus. The big question is why did Obama decide to run in this election year when he promised the people of Illinois that he wouldn't and when he's not really ready? He's young enough that he could wait 20 yrs and still run. I think it shows that the establishment Dems did not want a woman and they thought the only possibility of beating Hillary was a black man who no one could really criticize.

    Parent
    Heh (none / 0) (#36)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:27:38 PM EST
    the only possibility of beating Hillary was a black man who no one could really criticize.


    Parent
    Bill and Barack (none / 0) (#2)
    by eric on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:16:31 PM EST
    I also think it is interesting that Meyerson does not for a moment consider the SIMILARITIES between the Obama campaign and the Clinton campaign of 1992 especially.

    Similarities are there.  Two distinct comparisons come to mind.  First, there was a sort of naivete about Clinton, who seemed to want to try to CHANGE America and bring everyone together.  Remember this book?  Putting People First: How We Can All Change America .

    Second, I remember being at the Dem victory party and thinking while it was great the Bill won, it didn't seem like people had voted for him for the right reasons:  He wasn't the liberal that I wanted.  But he won because people just seemed to generally like him.

    Do you (none / 0) (#23)
    by tek on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:36:49 PM EST
    think Barack is the liberal you want? The so-called "progressives" seem to think this even though he's more conservative than Hillary.

    Parent
    Nope (none / 0) (#26)
    by eric on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:56:25 PM EST
    No, I surely don't find him particularly liberal.

    I was an Edwards supporter...

    Parent

    Rushing to judge the future (none / 0) (#3)
    by koshembos on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:17:11 PM EST
    Meyerson, as many other media colleagues of his, are so premature to qualify for the attribute of still born proclamations.

    Even Bill Clinton's legacy will only be clear in 10-20 years at the very least. Obama has hardly a past, a purposely misleading campaign (with a cult following) and like all of us, the future is ahead of him.

    There is more than enough journalistic opinionating that can be done without outrageous claims about the future and the still murky impact of the close past.

    Another similarity (none / 0) (#6)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:29:02 PM EST
    Clinton was the passing of the torch to the Baby Boomers from the Greatest Generation.

    Howeler (none / 0) (#7)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:33:01 PM EST
    yesterday did an interesting article on this:
    What is missing from Harold's piece? He fails to mention the role of the mainstream press--a power elite which has played a key role in recent White House elections.
    Howler

    Hope (none / 0) (#8)
    by eric on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:35:17 PM EST
    And let's not forget, Bill Clinton didn't only talk about hope, he was from Hope!

    Cokie Roberts (none / 0) (#9)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:38:21 PM EST
    who I don't like had a great line on Stephanopoulos: "Huck played the guitar, Bill the saxophone, that was some band teacher in Hope"

    Parent
    the only way (none / 0) (#11)
    by english teacher on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 02:48:46 PM EST
    senator clinton wins this election 51-49, or loses to mccain, is if obama supporters reject her and stay home or vote for mccain.  

    i see the 51-49 argument as a veiled threat at worst.  there's certainly no evidence they can point to.  at best it's an attempt to end run the primary process because he might not be able to beat her fair and square on the issues with democratic voters.  i saw this idea posted somewhere else but don't remember where so i can't claim it as my own, but that's how it strikes me.  

    Based on what? (none / 0) (#13)
    by Geekesque on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:01:38 PM EST
    The inherent awesomeness of the Democratic party in the eyes of the voters?

    Parent
    i know you are a troll (none / 0) (#20)
    by english teacher on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:30:41 PM EST
    what's the argument for obama then?  the inherent awesomeness of obama?

    Parent
    In the eyes of the average GE voter (none / 0) (#30)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:16:49 PM EST
    there may be no argument for Obama.

    Or Hillary.

    Parent

    are you speaking only for yourself? (none / 0) (#33)
    by english teacher on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:23:01 PM EST
    or are you playing the role of super sophisticated cynic?  if you think people aren't feeling the pain of bush's economic catastrophe and won't care to vote, you are being disingenuous or obtuse.  2006 midterms are an empirical data point here.  you can spin it, but only you are going to get dizzy.

    Parent
    jim is our resident erm (none / 0) (#60)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:34:34 PM EST
    "gadfly."

    Sometimes we are mean to him.

    We try to be less so lately.

    Parent

    And BTD is our (none / 0) (#80)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 08:55:53 PM EST
    resident "everyone is stupid but me."

    Parent
    What pain?? (none / 0) (#79)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 08:54:31 PM EST
    Unemployment remains very, very, very low and the market remains very, very, very high.

    The people being zapped right now are those who over extended themselves with the help of the various bankers. I have sympathy but if you can't figure out a budget to see what you can afford, then you will fall for any snake oil salesman that comes along.

    There is though, the base problem for many who have been hit by the subprime mess. And that is the price  of oil. For that we can blame the environmental wackos and the looney Left who couldn't figure out  that you drill for oil even if bothers the love life of polar bears, and the NIMBY crowd.

    Having started to reap what the Left has sown, my advice is to grasp anything solid and hold on tight.

    Parent

    well (none / 0) (#87)
    by english teacher on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:37:31 AM EST
    you can think that and i hope republicans keep spinning that.  fact is, even republican voters are paying twice as much for gas, home heating, electricity, etc.  no bankers required there.  stagnant wages don't require predatory lenders. don't want to jump the gun and call you a republican here, but if that's an indication of the campaign strategy by all means, go right ahead.  

    Parent
    Thank you for letting me think that, teach. (none / 0) (#89)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 10:05:17 AM EST
    And do you have any information confirming your stagnant wages??? Let me help you. Read Friday's USA Today. Front page, lower right.

    And you may call me anything but late for supper. I am what I am. An ex-Demo who saw the party leave me in '68 and after voting for Carter in '76....fool me twice they did....I haven't went back. And I certainly won't for either BHO or Billary.

    You can, however, be for social changes and national defense at the same time. Trust me. Think Scoop Jackson...

    As for blaming the Repubs over energy prices, that will be easy to do to the people who don't vote. For those that do they will recognize that oil is a commodity and it is the Looney Left who has been blocking drilling in the US for additional supplies.

    Parent

    The point is that Clinton or Obama could (none / 0) (#32)
    by Geekesque on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:20:14 PM EST
    easily lose to McCain even if the great majority of the other's supporters do stay home and vote D.

    Parent
    based on? (none / 0) (#35)
    by english teacher on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:25:05 PM EST
    i think there's a crucial typo in your post, but i can't say for sure.  try proof reading that.  neither can win if their supporters stay home, wtf?

    Parent
    can't stay home (none / 0) (#37)
    by english teacher on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:28:48 PM EST
    and vote.  assuming you mean "don't" stay home.  okay, no you are obviously downplaying numbers here.  republicans are not going to turn out for mccain like they did for bush in '04.  maybe he'll get forty million, but i seriously doubt it.  hillary's got him dead to rights on the economy, there's no comparison there and yes, people recognize that clinton+economy equals much better times than now.  i predict hillary could get upwards of seventy million votes.  kerry got over fifty million last time, bush a little more.  there's no way in hell mccain will get that number.  no way.  

    Parent
    Not a troll (none / 0) (#59)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:33:37 PM EST
    An ardent Obama supporter.

    We do not play this way here english teacher.

    Please be nice.

    Geek is one of the good ones.

    Parent

    i won't (none / 0) (#73)
    by english teacher on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:15:27 PM EST
    call him a troll then, but that was imho an utterly vacuous comment.  

    Parent
    Not everyone is a democrat or republican (none / 0) (#27)
    by cannondaddy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:59:36 PM EST
    and even some who are are only moderately so.  Rifts within the party probably wouldn't be the only reason she loses.

    Parent
    point being (none / 0) (#31)
    by english teacher on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:18:55 PM EST
    it's all conjecture anyway.  the 2006 midterms, democratic primary turnout, retiring gingrich congressional counterrevolutionaries, and the strong consistency of public opinion polling favor democrats point to the fact that either could sweep into the white with sizable gains in the congress, provided obama's supporters don't pout and go home because their charismatic leader didn't get the nod from the people to which they seem to think he is entitled.

    Parent
    I think it is laughable after (none / 0) (#15)
    by athyrio on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:17:21 PM EST
    lawlesssness of the last 8 years, that we are already talking about a white flag etc etc...if we all stuck together we would win this in a landslide...but oh noooooooo ......divide and conquer.....something the GOP is very good at....there is a reason that Hillary is being so despised....because she is effective and they know it....and many democrats are playing right into their hands.....ridiculous!!!!! This used to be a strong unified party until the netroots took over....now it is anything but...

    Bipartisanship in Washington (none / 0) (#40)
    by standingup on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:47:22 PM EST
    Glenn Greenwald had an excellent post yesterday that ripped apart the idea this notion that is being spoon fed to the electorate on the lack of bipartisanship being being the problem.  

    In almost every case, the proposals that are enacted are ones favored by the White House and supported by all GOP lawmakers, and then Democrats split and enough of them join with Republicans to ensure that the GOP gets what it wants. That's "bipartisanhip" in Washington:

    To support the new Bush-supported FISA law:

    GOP - 48-0
    Dems - 12-36

    To compel redeployment of troops from Iraq:

    GOP - 0-49
    Dems - 24-21

    To confirm Michael Mukasey as Attorney General:

    GOP - 46-0
    Dems - 7-40

    [Glenn lists many more votes that you can see for yourself by reading the full piece. Each vote had R's all voting together or no more than one dissenting from the party.
    ...
    On virtually every major controversial issue -- particularly, though not only, ones involving national security and terrorism -- the Republicans (including their vaunted mythical moderates and mavericks) vote in almost complete lockstep in favor of the President, the Democratic caucus splits, and the Republicans then get their way on every issue thanks to "bipartisan" support. That's what "bipartisanship" in Washington means.

    Clearly, the Republicans have mastered the strategy of getting bipartisan support from the Democrats.  I just don't know that the Democrats will be successful in doing the same to the Republicans or if the Dems can even match the same solidarity that Republicans have on votes.  

    Parent

    Is there a word for extreme ... (none / 0) (#16)
    by robrecht on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:21:15 PM EST
    ... tepidity?  LOL!

    Right (none / 0) (#21)
    by tek on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:30:45 PM EST
    in keeping with the Obama blogs today. I keep seeing headlines that Obama is only 4 points behind Clinton now in national polls. I've checked the most recent polls (1/30/08) and he's still 8-9 points behind her overall and she has way more delegates going into Tues. The betting odds are way in her favor as well. He has a slight lead in two Super Tuesday states and a huge lead in Illinois (so sad, my state), but she's leading in every other state.

    I see that he's now pandering to Californians, promising to legalize pot--they're having a big controversy over that this week in L. A. Who is the "say-anything" candidate? I hope he's very vocal about that because older people will write him off immediately and he could also hurt his "independent" following.

    I wonder if these Obama groupies are frying their brains on "hope."

    Legalize what? (none / 0) (#24)
    by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:43:10 PM EST
    Are we talking medical marijuana here?

    Parent
    oh, crap (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 03:54:54 PM EST
    The admitted coke user is talking about legalizing pot?

    Karl Rove just had an orgasm.

    (and yes, I tasted a little bit of vomit in my mouth right as I typed that last sentence)

    Parent

    I felt a bit of vomit from your first sentence (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:31:26 PM EST
    What is THAT about?

    Parent
    BTD (none / 0) (#65)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:49:22 PM EST
    Just playing it how the republicans would.  They don't care about facts, they just care about how they can twist them around to take down their target.

    Parent
    Don't do that here (none / 0) (#68)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:55:35 PM EST
    We do not want it here.

    Please respect the site.

    Parent

    my apologies (none / 0) (#69)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:01:33 PM EST
    I didn't mean to offend.

    Parent
    Oh, be nice (none / 0) (#28)
    by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:02:00 PM EST
    I imagine medical marijuana would be a good issue to run on in California.  Considering all we're talking about is reversing John Ashcroft's absurd policy of overriding state law, I don't see it as pandering, I see it as something any Democrat should pursue.  In fact, I'd be quite surprised if Hillary had the contrary position.

    But that assumes we're talking about medical marijuana, which is why I asked.

    Parent

    legalizing pot (none / 0) (#41)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:48:44 PM EST
    a non-issue for me, and it may win some in California, but the rest of America won't be so crazy about it.  This isn't SC.  You can't play to a specific section when so many states are in play.

    Parent
    Hillaryis44.org (none / 0) (#42)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:59:25 PM EST
    has this interesting tidbit on the pot issue.  I THOUGHT I remembered Obama saying he didn't support it:

    Update: Recall the Obama "mistaken" votes in the Illinois State Senate? Well, apparently Obama not only does not know how to press the right button, Obama can't get voting with raised arm right either. And, Obama does not bother to tell Americans when he has voted "incorrectly". Here is the amazing story which demonstrates how little we know about Obama (VIDEOs at the article link) and we wonder what other boneheaded "mistakes" Obama has not told us about.:

    Last fall during a nationally televised presidential debate, Sen. Barack Obama hesitantly raised his hand and joined with most of his Democratic rivals to declare that he opposed decriminalizing marijuana.

    But as a candidate for the U.S. Senate four years ago, Mr. Obama told Illinois college students that he supported eliminating criminal penalties for marijuana use or possession, according to a videotape of a little noticed debate that was obtained by The Washington Times.

    "I think we need to rethink and decriminalize our marijuana laws," Mr. Obama told an audience during a debate at Northwestern University in 2004. "But I'm not somebody who believes in legalization of marijuana."

    Asked about the two different answers, Mr. Obama's presidential campaign said he in fact has "always" supported decriminalizing marijuana as he answered in 2004, meaning the candidate mistakenly raised his hand during the presidential debate last fall.

    Apparently Obama did not bother to correct his "mistake" vote in a nationally televised debate. Hillary was right when she stated at the last debate that Obama does not take responsibility for his record.

    Parent

    Re: (none / 0) (#70)
    by Steve M on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:03:55 PM EST
    Since this is a crime blog, I assume someone can explain to me what it means to decriminalize it but not to legalize it.

    Parent
    well... (none / 0) (#72)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:10:17 PM EST
    maybe he means that you shouldn't make it legal, but you shouldn't arrest people for it?  Which actually could make sense as a law because then you would just arrest traffickers.  In Georgia, the threshold is above a certain weight (does two ounces sound right?) and then it's up to the arresting officer's discretion.

    So, if you get pulled over and there is a joint in your ashtray, you're let go; however, if you have a couple of pounds in your trunk, you get arrested. (and still this is a slippery slope, which I am sure Jeralyn is better equipped to address as you seldom want to be in a position where it's up to the cop's discretion...)

    Anyway, if that is what Obama is saying, then I could get behind that (though I am fairly certain the rest of the country would not).  This just goes to the bigger problem I have with Obama, which is that he isn't on point.  I, of course, will vote for him if he gets the nom, but I hope like crazy he'll get more focussed, because it's these over-talking the subject moments that have hit him in the face again and again.

    We are going to have to be a lean, mean fighting machine come the general.

    Parent

    Kathy writes (none / 0) (#90)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Feb 02, 2008 at 10:16:39 AM EST
    maybe he means that you shouldn't make it legal, but you shouldn't arrest people for it?  Which actually could make sense as a law because then you would just arrest traffickers.

    My idea of drug use stops at two glasses of wine before dinner... but I do support rationalization of our drug laws...

    But.... Failing to enforce laws that are on the books is not the way. When that happens, think Prohibition, corruption is sure to follow.

    Parent

    Don't worry (none / 0) (#39)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:46:42 PM EST
    Only problem is the pot heads did not register on time..so pandering is of no use.

    Parent
    This has to do with (none / 0) (#43)
    by standingup on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:00:03 PM EST
    medical marijuana.  

    I'll admit I have a bit of a libertarian streak in me that would take issue with the tone of your comment.  But regardless, I don't think it is helpful to take such a condescending tone toward people.  

    Parent

    medical marijuana (5.00 / 1) (#66)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:50:14 PM EST
    Heh, I am all for legalization. I have a friend that lives across from a Berkeley dispensary, remarkable number of 20 year olds who need the darn stuff. C'mon, all that my son's friends will here is "awesome dude, he's gonna legalize pot". Then they will go back to flipping through channels or playing wii. But they will remember that when I told them to register they all did not pay attention. Now come to think about it... (ok I am joking...not everything is serious)

    Parent
    That's the Gallup poll (none / 0) (#29)
    by cannondaddy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:12:18 PM EST
    where it's down to 4%  Just one poll.  Rasmussen has a California poll where the lead has collapsed to 3%, again just one poll.

    Parent
    wasn't it rasumussen (none / 0) (#88)
    by english teacher on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:41:35 AM EST
    that had obama leading in new hampshire?  seems to me that after that fiasco obama supporters would have chilled out a little about what the polls were saying.  

    Parent
    Clinton,Obama, The Media (none / 0) (#38)
    by Komla on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 04:36:51 PM EST
    Devil Clinton , Angel Obama , Supreme Court Media, Chief Justice CNN

    Alien Clinton

    Duck for cover America, bring out the duck tapes and prepare. An alien family called the Clintons are about to hijack America. A Clinton, called Bill did it in 1992 and held America hostage for 8 years. The other Clinton, one open minded men refer to as a squealer goes by the name, Hillary. She to kidnap America. If she succeeded, she would hold America hostage for 8 years, paving the way for another Clinton called Chelsea who would have been 35 years old in 2016 and ready to continue the evil Clinton agenda.

    That would leave two Clintons in the White House with nothing to do in 2016. Republican candidate, Romney who could not imagine one Clinton unemployed living on 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue if Hillary became president could be forgiven for his thoughts on not wanting her in the White House. The conservative media led by the Fox Network could easily be forgiven for analysis or reports skewed against Clinton. They hate her or they are afraid of her? Yet, what should one conclude when analysts, pundits etc who claim neutrality or liberalism, slyly push conclusions skewed against Hillary? All that while she was being touted as the obvious choice for the Democrats.

    Obama's Slipstreams

    Meantime, a half white, half black man who said he had a funny name called Barack was packaging himself, enlisting an institution called Oprah in the venture. Then, he slipstreamed Hillary and won a caucus and a primary election; and now, winning over, two reputable Kennedys. Slipstreaming is a tactic used in auto racing in which the slipstreamer drives behind the leading car, taking advantage of the pull force while easing a bit on the accelerator. If done right, the driver in the following car would power up fully at the right moment and win the race or at least, over take the lead car. Political slipstreaming may not be new but Obama appeared to have pulled of the mother of all political slipstreamings.

    The spotlight was on Hillary as she was being bisected and dissected left, center, right, Obama lurked in the background. Mr. Clean with little or no known weakness. Then, whoosh, there he was, " the new face of politics, a unifying force, charismatic, a phenomenal approach never before seen." A charmed media; journalists, pundits, analysts repeated the afore mentioned labels. Exactly how Obama portrayed himself and wanted to be seen, fresh new ideas a different kind of politics. The media bought it and essentially became all but Obama's official mouth. Clinton, she was ghetto stumped.            
    Clinton Ghetto Stumped

    The violent act of participating in a  ghetto stump is to identify with the in crowd. It is a hip thing to do, embolden oneself, feel powerful while a helpless ghetto stumped individual lay on the floor bleeding. That individual dared not fight back less he got more. Anyone who dared come to the aid of the individual got it too, sometimes more. Ghetto stumping Clinton became a fashion, the in thing to do. "She is divisive, polarizing, people are tired of her, she will energize the conservative base. Americans do not want to go through all that Clinton drama again". Those labels, analysts virtually lined up to attach to Hillary. Picture yourself in the Clinton camp. What would you do if you were running a campaign based on issues and you had a track record to back it but the media focused on your candidate's perceived  weaknesses while trumpeting the strengths of your opponent? Ask Bill Clinton what happened to him when he came to the aid of the ghetto stumped victim.

    That Bill Clinton was also ghetto stumped when he called Obama out was not surprising. His messages came out wrong at the critical moment but the continued stance of the media led by CNN analysts, defending Obama and not calling him out on any issue was not really baffling. It showcased what really happened when America invaded Iraq in 2003 with an overwhelming support of the population and the media. That America was misled is now an understatement consideration all we know now. However the rhetoric, the rallying cries, the united sense of purpose, the repetition by the media of what the White House was putting out about Iraq; and analyst now say "I have not seen this kind of thing before," about the Obama campaign before

    what is the game that they play (none / 0) (#44)
    by athyrio on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:02:11 PM EST
    in carnivals with the three shells and the pea....now you see it and now you don't....thats what Obama's campaign reminds me of....but as much as the polls narrow, I don't think Obama will be able to get a working majority of Americans without Hillary....no way, no shape, no how....the average Democratic voter is not a member of the netroots and isnt influenced by all this going on and will vote for whom they are comfortable with ....that would be Hillary Clinton...Obama is basically a man talking about an ill defined change....that is why Hillary got 850,000 votes in Florida and Obama got no where near that...BIGGGGGGGGGGGG DIFFERENCE.....

    Parent
    Don't want to hijack, but it seems to be wandering (none / 0) (#45)
    by RalphB on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:03:44 PM EST
    Yesterday, I read a very interesting post on why the  netroots, 'creative class?', is predominantly supporting Obama.  It was quite good but the response to it was the poster got banned from OL with not a small amount of vitriol.  I take that to mean the poster hit a nerve and is most likely correct.

    The poster reasoned that the predominantly young male netroots was supporting Obama because they saw themselves in him, or saw what they thought they were.  In other words, they identified with Obama in ways they could not with Clinton, so they were practicing a type of identity politics.  Part of the argument was that this explained why his policies didn't seem to matter to his supporters.

    Sounds reasonable to me.  Opinions?


    To a degree (none / 0) (#48)
    by spit on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:12:52 PM EST
    I think that sort of thing is a factor that is always in play. People want to "see themselves" in their leadership in a subjective sort of a way; I think that's what people are really talking about in the "want to have a beer" question, is "can I relate to this person".

    Utterly ignoring policy positions and looking on that gut level, can the netroots relate to a strong older woman? I have my doubts, but also I think there are a lot of other factors going on there.

    Parent

    It just was odd (none / 0) (#58)
    by RalphB on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:33:16 PM EST
    that what I thought sounded like a reasonable post got a very angry response and the poster banned.  Unless I missed something else going on, that was freaking weird.


    Parent
    maybe (none / 0) (#62)
    by Judith on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:43:17 PM EST
    it reflected poorly on somebody - in their opinion.

    What do they mean by "creative"?

    Parent

    it was like he was whispering the secret (none / 0) (#63)
    by athyrio on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:44:01 PM EST
    password to the cult...they cannot allow that lol...oh well...after he is nominated, I will sit back and laugh my head off because it will be something to behold...,.they have no idea the tap dance that will happen to them....

    Parent
    Ah (none / 0) (#67)
    by spit on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:53:02 PM EST
    I missed your point. Apologies.

    Certainly doesn't sound like reason for banning, but I guess it depends on how he said it and whatnot.

    Lord, it's no secret that the political blogosphere tends male, and isn't necessarily reflective of the outside world.

    Parent

    makes sense to me as well... (none / 0) (#61)
    by athyrio on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:41:03 PM EST
    and also is the reason alot of us have no clue what he is trying to talk about .....change to what....new ideas about what....I cannot vote on faith.....I wouldn't join James Jones's cult and I won't join this either...things are bad when the foreign papers are laughing at us for believing in this guy who just gives great inspiring speeches....like the australian paper that someone just posted a few comments back...it is downright embarrassing...

    Parent
    I bought the new generation bit (none / 0) (#82)
    by jimakaPPJ on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:11:19 PM EST
    in 1960.

    And that didn't turn out well. Now the MSM, Teddy K and the Obama fans are trying to bring back "Camelot."

    It is time to ask some hard questions of Obama.

    Parent

    Just Stooge-Slapped Wolfe Blitzer for this sexism (none / 0) (#46)
    by Ellie on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:05:00 PM EST
    Out of desperation to have at "The Clintons," he referred to the Clinton "co-presidency", dragging out this fossilized notion that SENATOR Clinton -- who has her own record and involvement in issues, thank you very much -- will be nothing more than a ventriloquist dummy for fmr President Clinton.

    Granted, any Prez will be beholden to issues and support groups, but has Wolfe ever referred to Dubyah as being a front for Papa Bush?

    Or put the other candidates' spouses under suspicion for their influence? Or to congresswomen and other women who hold office for actually being controlled by their spouses?

    Presumably, the men are A-OKAY cause the wives are baking cookies (like they did in the prehistoric creative design world where man and Blitzerops roamed the earth simultaneously.)

    YEESH.


    this tells me exactly (none / 0) (#50)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:13:43 PM EST
    how Obama feels about women.

    Parent
    From my lips to Cafferty's ears ... (none / 0) (#54)
    by Ellie on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:27:59 PM EST
    I posted the above on Jack Cafferty's blog because his letters seem indicative of being a crack to a recognizable outside world.

    Well, from my lips to Cafferty's ears because the question now is whether Rudy Ghouliani's embarrassing mistress turned trophy wife tanked his pious Moral Values schtick.

    Now if only the rest of the Repugs would get that same scrutiny! (Remember how Teresa Heinz Kerry suddenly became unacceptable when she married a Dem and shunned by the Republicult? Not sure of the logic there. Presumably, Kerry was living high on THEIR money.)

    Parent

    Nasty Work (none / 0) (#64)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:47:49 PM EST
    Wish you would take that kind of stuff somewhere else.

    Parent
    Why? Gender is as or more significant (none / 0) (#76)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:42:10 PM EST
    in this campaign than race, not only the genders of the candidates but also in the importance of women voters -- and do you write this in the discussions of race here?

    Parent
    I may have inflamed this (none / 0) (#77)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 07:08:00 PM EST
    in my pre-debate anxiety.  I'm just so nervous for Hillary and I want her to do well.  I've even been yelling at the cats (who, frankly, are reminding me more and more of republicans: I pay for their extravagant lifestyles, they do whatever they like whenever they like, and then every night I've gotta scoop their sh*t.)

    So, my apologies, and if I offended anyone, please take comfort in the fact that I am living with two furry, lazy republicans)

    Parent

    I just read your line on your felines (none / 0) (#83)
    by Cream City on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:30:01 PM EST
    to my spouse in the next room, who is so patient about my bloglife on nights like this (while I just scratch my head that he'd rather watch basketball than watch the best game there is, politics!).  He laughed so hard at your line that he dropped his remote!

    Sadly, it missed our worst cat, the one we hate -- so mean to the others.  The one my daughter convinced me, against my better judgment, to take in on a 4th of July.  So she called it Sam.  Me, I call the nasty beastie Son of Sam.  

    Now I've gotta go forward your feline line to friends and family. . . .

    Parent

    Gender and Race (none / 0) (#85)
    by squeaky on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 11:57:52 PM EST
    Issues are both important, I am not going to rank them.

    Trying to ruin Obama's reputation by linking to an unflattering picture and claiming that is how he feels toward all women is wrong.

    It is a dirty trick. We have had enough of that kind of stuff with BushCo.

    Parent

    Warning: anecdotal evidence (none / 0) (#47)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:10:31 PM EST
    My prediction is that Obama will win CA and thenomination.  I have inquired of two young men at the car rental office.  Both think it is a no-brainer--why wouldn't everyone vote for Obama.  second guy sd. Hillary has run a negative campaign so far and Obama won all the debates.

    Then, last night, I asked three close friends, all very well educated.  2 are between 55 and 60 years old.  One is between 45 and 50.  All three sd.;  Obama.  Change, inspiractional.  No problem with his "present" votes in IL.  

    I have the same experience (none / 0) (#52)
    by Stellaaa on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:16:08 PM EST
    so this last week been trying to reconcile. So, I am reading lighter material. Unless Obama flubs the debate or something happens, I think the Axelrod machine is winning the "perception" war. This article below is so very funny and it's great to see a view from the outside of our elections, which has become an international sport. UK Guardian

    Parent
    He's already flubbed a debate, to my (none / 0) (#53)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:27:54 PM EST
    way of thinking, but the rental car guy, whom I asked if he watched any of the debates, sd. he saw part of one.  Perception is reality.  

    Parent
    florida (none / 0) (#71)
    by english teacher on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 06:05:25 PM EST
    wasn't anecdotal.  clinton smashed obama in florida by 300,000 votes.  young people are notoriously unreliable.  clinton dominates demographics that reliably vote, you know grown ups.  

    Parent
    Rental car guy #2 pointed (none / 0) (#78)
    by oculus on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 08:34:36 PM EST
    out that, due to the screenwriters' strike, what else is there to watch on TV but politics.  I asked him if the "talkers" he knows will vote.  He sd. yes.

    Parent
    Obama's Change (none / 0) (#49)
    by PlayInPeoria on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:13:16 PM EST
    per factcheck refering to Sen Clinton & Sen Obama....

    During the two years that they overlapped in the Senate, they voted differently just 40 times - out of 645 votes. That works out to 93.8 percent agreement.

    Now his Illinois record. He voted "present" but only because Illinois legislature is different. But his version of "Change" in Illinois was to go with the "status quo" of how thing were done.

    Furthermore, per

    shown himself more able than any American in a very long time to help us transcend some of our most crippling differences

    The record above doe not support the "UNITY". When difficult DIVISIVE issues occur like in 2006 the Immigration issue...

    Democrats like Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) say immigration reform is a divisive issue but contend that lawmakers should work collectively to assist immigrants living in the U.S.

    This was his response...

    "But I believe we can work together to pass immigration reform in a way that unites the people in this country," he said, "not in a way that divides us by playing on our worst instincts and fears."

    Wonderful ... but it didn't transcend the crippling differences.  

    Is this the way he will address divisive issues if elected? Let's all unite... okay...divisive... next issue.

    actually (none / 0) (#51)
    by Kathy on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:15:28 PM EST
    The "present" votes were not what he spun them as (I know y'all are shocked)  Taylor Marsh has the story.

    "Voting Present on those bills was a strategy that Illinois NOW did not support. We made it clear at the time that we disagreed with the strategy. We wanted legislators to take a stand against the awful anti-choice bills being put forth. Voting Present doesn't provide a platform from which to show leadership and say with conviction that we support a woman's right to choose and these bills are unacceptable."

    - Bonnie Grabenhofer
    IL NOW State President


    Parent

    BTD, your first (none / 0) (#56)
    by cpinva on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 05:32:30 PM EST
    and continuing mistake, is to take anything harold myerson says seriously, other than perhaps directions to the men's room, and i'd even double check on those.

    mr. myerson is of the pundit class that sees no need to inject facts (his mind is blissfully uncluttered by them) into his columns, we're expected to accept as a given anything he tosses out.

    that mr. clinton only briefly had a democratic congress didn't help; after 1994, he was dealing with a decidedly hostile republican congress. that almost immediately following the 1992 election, he and sen. clinton were accused, quite publicly and quite wrongly, by the nyt's of involvement in the arkansas real estate deal known as whitewater (read: fools for scandal, gene lyons), and a host of other accusations of wrongdoing didn't help his presidency either.

    travel gate, vince foster's unfortunate suicide, etc., etc., all pushed by foes in and out of congress, diverted resources that should have been used for actual work, to defending against all the made up allegations. that he got as much done as he did is nearly a minor miracle.

    but goodness knows, we wouldn't want mr. myerson to worry his pretty little head about facts, it might explode.

    "angry Obama supporters" (none / 0) (#84)
    by diogenes on Thu Jan 31, 2008 at 09:46:16 PM EST
    One way to solve the problem and unify the party would be for Hillary to drop out now.  No one really knows what Hillary will do in office either-she's been cautiously following the polls in her senate votes and Bill and she refuse to release records from the Clinton presidency until 2012 which would give us some more information about the real Hillary.  I'd rather have a likable fluffball than an unlikable fluffball.


    View from the grassroots in Butte, Montana (none / 0) (#86)
    by Alien Abductee on Fri Feb 01, 2008 at 02:35:02 AM EST
    on incrementalism vs momentum, Reagan, Clinton, and Obama, and moving forward:

    So can Obama's magic move Butte? Before the morning was over, I was able to ask the question to a group of local activists. The Montana Human Rights Network was holding its annual Progressive Leadership Institute in the Finlen over the weekend, and two dozen local organisers gathered around to hear the speech in between workshops on running effective campaigns and running for local office.

    "It's not that he would change anything in Butte," said Alan Peura, a city commissioner in Helena. "But he's building momentum that we can use to make that change ourselves."

    Although John Edwards was by my survey probably the group's favourite candidate, Obama roused them, not by his policy promises, but by the opening he presents for their work.

    "At the very least, we'll have four years of movement-building from the presidential bully pulpit, which is the polar opposite from what we've had," chimed in Jason Wiener, a Missoula city councilman...

    "I don't trust all this talk about bi-partisanship," said retired Montana congressman Pat Williams, one of the longest-serving progressives ever to sit in the House of Representatives. "Compromise can be just another word for collusion." On the other hand, even Williams sees movement potential at the party level if Obama were to be the candidate. Williams served in Congress under Bill Clinton in the early 1990s. He saw how the Clinton magic worked - for Clinton only. "We lost the governors, the House, the Senate."

    Ken Toole, one of the founders of the Network and a student of the conservative movement remembers how the right came to power. Gaining the White House wasn't the last but rather the first stage of that process. "The best thing Obama could be is our Reagan," said Toole. "Reagan didn't deliver a whole lot in terms of policies, but he shifted the country's direction."

    Even from Butte, it's clear to organisers: Obama's not the saviour: we are. He opens a door. We push.