home

Early Evening Open Thread: Chimes of Freedom

The Byrds at the Monterey Pop Festival in 1967.

...The chimes of freedom flashing

Flashing for the warriors whose strength is not to fight

Flashing for the refugees on the unarmed road of flight

An' for each an' every underdog soldier in the night

....An' for each unharmful, gentle soul misplaced inside a jail

... we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing.

Our earlier open thread is full, here's another one. How is your holiday going so far?

< Fourth of July Afternoon Open Thread | Clemency Overdue For the Innocent >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Clinton supporters - their own Independence Day? (5.00 / 7) (#1)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:29:03 PM EST
    CNN has a poll out showing Clinton supporters' unsupport for Obama has grown since the beginning of June.

    Link

    In a CNN/ORC survey conducted in early June, entirely before the New York senator officially ended her White House bid, 22 percent of Clinton supporters said they would not vote at all if Obama was the party's nominee. Now close to a third say they will stay home. In all, only 54 percent of Clinton backers say they plan on voting for Obama.

    In another sign the wounds of the heated primary race have yet to heal, more than 4 in 10 registered Democrats -- 43 percent -- still say they would prefer Clinton to be the party's presidential nominee. That number is significantly higher than it was in early June, when only 35 percent of Democrats said they preferred the New York senator to lead the party's presidential ticket Then, Obama won 59 percent of support from registered Democrats, now he garners 5 points less.


    Bill Schneider's analysis is that it's all about our grief and 'healing' (translation: pathology).  His conclusion: we haven't had time to work through to stages 4 and 5, "depression and acceptance."  Yeah, because it sure couldn't be about, you know, doubts about his fitness for office.  Or his reversals on issues.  

    In good news for Obama supporters, though, the number of Clinton supporters planning to defect to McCain is down.

    But I guess the 'Unity' event didn't impress so many folks.

    This is the worst part (5.00 / 10) (#3)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:34:40 PM EST
    about what's happening.

    Bill Schneider's analysis is that it's all about our grief and 'healing' (translation: pathology).  His conclusion: we haven't had time to work through to stages 4 and 5, "depression and acceptance."

    You don't "get over" the fact that Obama doesn't represent Democratic principles. My objections are not based on feelings, they're based on facts.

    Parent

    Bill Shneider is (5.00 / 10) (#17)
    by frankly0 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:13:28 PM EST
    just making psychobabble up to come to a predetermined conclusion.

    He can't possibly have any evidence that Hillary supporters will come around.

    Why can't these bloviators stick to the facts, what is known, and what is knowable?

    The reality is that no one can claim to know one way or the other how many Hillary supporters will come around, and when they might do so. Yet he felt obliged to shoot his mouth off as if he had a real clue.

    The axiom should be: don't say anything if you have zero support for it. Of course, that makes it harder to talk if you're a pundit. Which would be a good thing.

    Parent

    They really don't see (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:39:34 PM EST
    that this resistance is any different than previous years, when supporters of one candidate took a while to embrace another as nominee.  They should look back to 1968 and what happened.  Nixon got elected because McCarthy/Kennedy enthusiasts stayed home in droves.

    I don't think anybody knows what's going to happen with all of us in November.  I don't know myself for sure what I'll do when it comes down to it.  But this is a far more serious resistance than, say, Hart supporters miffed that Mondale won, IMHO.

    Parent

    I love this line too (5.00 / 7) (#19)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:20:02 PM EST
    The analysts said maybe more than four weeks is needed for many of Clinton's most devoted supporters to move past her loss, especially considering the primary campaign stretched more than 17 months.

    (emphasis mine)

    They are making this sound like we're youngsters who've lost a boyfriend/girlfriend and we should be over it already.  I mean, really.  Four whole weeks??!!

    Parent

    I think the part that is even worse (5.00 / 13) (#20)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:20:43 PM EST
    or just stoopid is this:  That the party split is "because Clinton remains a divisive figure in American politics and Obama's message of change threatens to be muddled by the 16 years Clinton has spent in Washington."

    Uh, no, CNN.  The tactics that divided the party were by another candidate -- the same candidate who is responsible for muddling his own message.

    Amazing, isn't it?  Clinton hasn't said a word in weeks, but she still is blamed for Obama's problems -- and apparently always will be, because she can't escape her horrible past . . . of public service.  

    Parent

    http://tinyurl.com/5jxxxa NOW (5.00 / 3) (#95)
    by thereyougo on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:59:57 PM EST
    his diehard supporters are getting the message out that they won't send their checks or work for him, until he comes back to the left.

    I say his base is getting restless with him.

    if this keeps up, the polls are going to begin to show the exodus.

    Parent

    yep...they are even using his website (5.00 / 2) (#108)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:49:42 PM EST
    to try to make him accountable...I wish them the best....he seems to be deaf in one ear and can't hear out of the other.

    Parent
    Dear Gawd (5.00 / 5) (#127)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:59:46 PM EST
    I'm soooooooo tired of hearing about my hurt feelings and having people tell me I'm grieving.

    My feelings aren't hurt and grief has absolutely nothing to do with it.

    Message to the Dem Party and idiot pundits: I do not like the product being offered, it does not meet my specifications and I'm not buying. I want a candidate with experience. I want my Constitutional rights restored and not bartered away. I want a strong pro-choice candidate and not one that thinks that a women needs a committee to make a decision about what she should do with her own body. I want a candidate who does not reduce the criteria acceptable to having an abortion. I want a candidate who dismantles faith based initiatives and not one that expands the program. I want a candidate who protects Social Security and not one that puts it on the table. I want a candidate who offers a true  Universal Health Care program and not one that lies about his program being universal when not everyone is covered. I want a candidate who stands for Democratic principles and not one that is more interested in pleasing Republicans.

    I'm not hurt or grieving. The Democratic Party  failed to nominate a candidate that meets my minimum requirements, I'm not buying.  

    Parent

    It's been so bizarre (4.62 / 8) (#7)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:38:55 PM EST
    these last weeks listening to all these "analysts" and commenters discussing us as if we were some peculiar laboratory specimen and pronouncing on our motivations and likely behavior.  Very few of them have as much as a clue.  They seem utterly unable to conceive of Democrats objecting to a Dem. candidate on principle.

    Parent
    It's because (5.00 / 8) (#10)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:47:11 PM EST
    they don't have principles.

    And besides, they know that we normally vote straight D. The fact that we might not do so in such a Democratic year mystifies them.

    Parent

    I agree. (5.00 / 5) (#16)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:13:21 PM EST
    I don't know who does these surveys but I don't believe they understand "us" plus I think it is inconceivable that we'd not vote (D) after voting (D) for so many years.  

    Obama was not a good substitute for Clinton.    

    Parent

    Here's what burns my butt, chafes my (5.00 / 8) (#37)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:42:24 PM EST
    a$$ and in general p!sses me off....those who say we need to vote for obama because he is better than a republican.  So if Eisenhower (R) was running against Adolf Hitler (D), and we knew what Hitler is all about, we should vote for Hitler just because he is a dem?  I know it's a bit extreme, but you get the point.

    How about we vote on who we think would be best for America...party should come second.

    Parent

    I agree. (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:49:45 PM EST
    Well, not with the Hilter analogy, but with voting for who we think would be best for America.  

    The key to voing third party would be ensure there was some sort of unity or agreement on that choice.  

    What can be done along those lines?

    Parent

    And the answer is... (5.00 / 1) (#105)
    by shoephone on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:32:05 PM EST
    public financing of campaigns.

    Parent
    We ARE peculiar specimens to them (5.00 / 8) (#11)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:47:13 PM EST
    They can't comprehend any person on whom their 24/7 Clockwork Orange indoctrination didn't work.

    Parent
    You would think they had no idea (5.00 / 5) (#72)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:06:37 PM EST
    how to, like, do research. I mean, like, how in the world would they know how to find out whether PUMAs are Republicans or Democrats? Women or men?

    They should have their five-year-old children teach them how to use teh Google.


    Parent

    Like totally madamab... :) (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:15:55 PM EST
    Bill Schneider's analysis makes no sense (5.00 / 7) (#4)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:36:29 PM EST
    some voters were fine with Obama, but are now 'suffering from grief'?!

    On a side note, flipping the channels and the Witches of Eastwick. Loves me some Jack!

    Parent

    Speaking of the stages of grief, (5.00 / 8) (#21)
    by rjarnold on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:22:16 PM EST
    I commented about Obama shifting some positions on a different site, and I got this reply:

    "So what if he changed?  I think were so used to Bush that we forgot what its like to have a leader who listens to people.  

    If he's going to represent us, he will listen to our concerns and adjust his views in order to better represent us.  That's what he's been doing."

    If that's not denial, I don't know what is.

    Parent

    The problem is, (5.00 / 8) (#27)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:31:28 PM EST
    who is Obama listening to?

    It's certainly not Kos and his ilk. See: FISA.

    It's not liberals. See: The Evangelical Outreach.

    It's not the Democratic base. See: BitterCling.

    There don't seem to be any good options here...

    Parent

    I think it would behoove the "sorta" (5.00 / 5) (#79)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:25:25 PM EST
    party leaders, Dean, Emmanuel, Reid, Pelosi and other obama supporters to take a second look at the mess they have made....If we want to fall into line with the evangelicals, perhaps we should trade in our dem cards for repub cards....

    Parent
    Indeed! (5.00 / 0) (#125)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:44:01 PM EST
    Frankly, I really don't want evangelicals in the party in numbers.  Too many of their core beliefs are totally in opposition to ours.  I don't want them influencing Dem. politics and positions directly, which they would do if they came over in any numbers.

    Oops. I forgot.  I'm not officially a Dem. anymore.

    Parent

    Frankly (5.00 / 4) (#50)
    by Fabian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:16:46 PM EST
    I keep on wanting to post a big old WE TOLD YOU SO! post on dkos, but what would be the point?

    The sad thing is that Obama is even worse than I thought.  He's even more eager to pander to the Right than I thought as well.  I keep telling myself that it is "pandering" because I value my sanity.  

    Parent

    I can't tell (5.00 / 4) (#52)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:25:29 PM EST
    if he's pandering or just being himself. The Joshua Generation stuff was scary...

    Parent
    How does this sound to you? (5.00 / 3) (#63)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:54:25 PM EST
    Between now and November, the Obama forces are planning as many as 1,000 house parties and dozens of Christian rock concerts, gatherings of religious leaders, campus visits and telephone conference calls to bring together voters of all ages motivated by their faith to engage in politics. It is the most intensive effort yet by a Democratic candidate to reach out to self-identified evangelical or born-again Christians and to try to pry them away from their historical attachment to the Republican Party.

    Link

    I wonder what he's offering them . . . .

    Parent

    Seriously... (5.00 / 4) (#65)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:58:53 PM EST
    I think he's got the worst election strategy evah. He is throwing the Democratic base away with both hands, while desperately chasing the .0000001% of evangelicals who might vote for a melanin-enhanced guy with a scary Muslim name.

    It's almost as if he wants to lose.

    Parent

    Yeah, but if you read the posts here (5.00 / 8) (#75)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:15:38 PM EST
    and in other places on the Internet, a lot of people will vote for him no matter what he does because "a Democrat is always better..."

    This is actually a kind of perplexing problem if you're a Democrat because -- is it really better to vote for anyone just because they are a Democrat?  Or is it better to use good judgment in selecting a candidate?

    Is there some magic line he has to cross over before Democrats won't vote for him?    

    Parent

    How much better off would the country (5.00 / 4) (#85)
    by RalphB on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:33:54 PM EST
    be today if the McCain supporters in 2000 had not "came home" and then voted for Bush?  This is a very similar situation but the onus now is on Democrats.  Which is it gonna be, country or party?


    Parent
    You've got a point there... (5.00 / 1) (#90)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:45:50 PM EST
    I also wonder how far Obama plans to go to the right now that he's moving in that direction.

    Is he planning to "out-Conservative" McCain?

    This outreach he's doing to evangelicals is certainly more than McCain is doing for evangelicals.  If anything, McCain might actually be willing to dismantle that faith based funding program of GWB's.  

    Parent

    From looking at the past (5.00 / 2) (#94)
    by RalphB on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:58:58 PM EST
    it appears that McCain can barely stomach those folks.  The feeling appears to be somewhat mutual but they may "come home" in November.  I think that if McCain gets elected, he'll cleanse those people right onto the street without a second thought.

    Parent
    If obama asks jeb bush to be his VP (none / 0) (#109)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:52:19 PM EST
    then we will have a huge clue as to where he is headed... :)

    Parent
    Hahaha...This one is humorous (5.00 / 1) (#112)
    by zfran on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:04:24 PM EST
    PssttCmere08. Wish sometimes some of us here could really just sit down (in person) and dish..

    Parent
    zfran....that would be great....we could cuss (5.00 / 1) (#130)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:27:13 PM EST
    and everything!!  :)

    Parent
    I don't know what it's like where (none / 0) (#133)
    by zfran on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:04:29 AM EST
    you are, but to whomever I even remotely mention politics (even lightly)they cringe, some roll their eyes and they try to change the subject!!

    Parent
    Most of my politics talk is with my (none / 0) (#134)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:08:47 AM EST
    friends and family and they are huge Hillary fans, so it isn't bad.  I am in NV and obama thinks he will make in-roads here, but I think he is going to be surprised to find he is not as well liked here as he thinks he is....still hoping something big happens at the convention.

    Parent
    I do, too, I do believe however, it (none / 0) (#135)
    by zfran on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:11:34 AM EST
    will be so controlled, nothing will be allowed to happen. Did you read earlier comments regarding O's campaign is looking into having him accept the nom. in a bigger venue that holds 75,000 or so? It will only be about him and his crown. It is really scary!

    Parent
    I saw that, but I do believe "Hobama (none / 0) (#136)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:20:47 AM EST
    Dobama" is in for a big fall...something is not right!  The GOP hasn't even pulled out the big guns yet and I do expect some skeletons to be escaping from the closet soon.  His flip-flops are really creating a stir...if you remember he said they wouldn't hurt him and he wouldn't be swiftboated because he would have a rapid response team, or some such nonsense.  It isn't how fast you answer, it is HOW MANY you are having to address...look here:

    link

    Parent

    I hope you are right. It seems all (5.00 / 0) (#137)
    by zfran on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:36:08 AM EST
    the articles out there right now are smaller venues reporting.  Even the NYT article speaking to this sort of stuff isn't convinced to distance themselves from him. I agree with you that something is not right. My hairdresser who is gay and his partner are not voting top of the ticket and he says many of his friends feel the same way. (all dems below ticket). Perhaps if more "groups" realize what's happening and keep passing the word, your "something" just might end up a movement.

    Parent
    It appears the numbers against obama (none / 0) (#138)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:47:22 AM EST
    are growing...we will have to see how it plays out.  I want a dem in the WH, but I truly believe it should not be obama.

    Parent
    I feel the same way. Just read an (5.00 / 0) (#139)
    by zfran on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:55:19 AM EST
    article about his years at Harvard. I believe he is running the same type of campaign to be pres. I think perhaps it worked for him on a small scale, but on a big one, too many dissenters and not enough substance. Here's a link

    link

    Parent

    This excerpt from that article says it all: (none / 0) (#147)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:31:41 PM EST

    Charles J. Ogletree Jr., another Harvard law professor and a mentor of Mr. Obama, said, "He can enter your space and organize your thoughts without necessarily revealing his own concerns and conflicts."

    Bamboozling anyone??

    Parent

    I'd like a Dem in the White House too (5.00 / 0) (#144)
    by Grace on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 02:50:20 AM EST
    I just don't know if I can make myself vote for Obama.  I keep thinking "Well, I'll just wait to really commit to someone once I get to see who everyone is picking for VP" although, deep in my heart, I know the VP choice isn't that big of a deal.  

    I know for sure that I can't vote for Bob Barr or Ralph Nader.  

    I have a sneaky suspicion, if Obama picks someone other than Clinton for VP (which is extremely unlikely), his numbers will continue to fall -- at least among Democrats.  

    Parent

    I would agree with that Grace... (none / 0) (#148)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:33:49 PM EST
    zfran....let's leave out the cussing...I read (none / 0) (#149)
    by PssttCmere08 on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 12:54:59 PM EST
    one of your posts where it says you don't...good for you lady!

    Parent
    Country!!!!!!! (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by zfran on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:44:47 PM EST
    Paradise by the dashboard light? (5.00 / 0) (#66)
    by Ellie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:59:09 PM EST
    I wonder what he's offering them

    or maybe just some other warmed over Meatloaf.

    Parent

    Obama to voters (5.00 / 4) (#78)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:18:59 PM EST
    I want you
    I need you
    But there ain't no way I'm ever gonna love you
    But don't be sad
    Cause two out of three ain't bad.

    Some of his supporters also may be praying for the end of time so they can end their time with him too.


    Parent

    Meatloaf is full of good lines (none / 0) (#86)
    by Valhalla on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:36:02 PM EST

    Praying for the end of time, so I can end my time with you!!!

    Parent
    I love Meatloaf (none / 0) (#140)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 01:19:25 AM EST
    and that song -- I've been trying for months to tie it into a TL theme for a late night.

    Parent
    His soul.... (none / 0) (#68)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:02:54 PM EST
    He**! (none / 0) (#103)
    by Molly Pitcher on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:28:25 PM EST
    The repubs never had my soul nor my vote.  I must be pretty simple-minded: the repubs remind me of the scribes and pharisees and the saducees.  Not much of the main character in the story.

    Parent
    YES! (5.00 / 3) (#74)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:15:29 PM EST
    I am not going to make some sort of case that Clinton would be leading a filibuster of FISA right now, that has never been an argument that could be made.  Well.  You know.  I think it is possible that one could easily point out that Clinton would not be so tied to Pelosi on the issue.  And possibly defiant.  But again, I have always been clear.  I did not support Clinton because I believed when something like this came to pass, she would be leading a filibuster charge.

    But the argument that can be made now about Clinton and Obama is this:  That if you assessed a totality of issues, now that Obama has embarked on an evangelical pandering outreach scheme that blurs the line between separation of church and state, as well as what we've heard about late term abortion, one could very easily very convincingly argue that Dems grassroots/netroots movement supported the WRONG CANDIDATE from a strictly issue perspective.

    Parent

    I'm surprised (5.00 / 0) (#124)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:41:33 PM EST
    the "he's" weren't all capitalized.  Geez, blind adoration much?


    Parent
    dayum, next time ask their ages. (none / 0) (#96)
    by thereyougo on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:01:29 PM EST
    they can't be adults.

    Parent
    LOL Schneidy psychobloviating chickly HRC support (5.00 / 9) (#26)
    by Ellie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:31:13 PM EST
    I'll take,

    What methodology or mental faculty has so broken down in a poll pundit who "explains" one (female) candidate's supporters' criticism of another (male) candidate in terms of healing from grief?

    Is it ...

    (1) Simple common sense?
    (2) A sense of fairness so eroded and lacking in integrity that it was long ago replaced by blatant sexism and rampant misogyny?
    (3) Bigotry of the sort that will not accept that Sen Clinton's supporters are diverse and do not neatly fall into hot-button emotive categories
    (4) A real-world acceptance that skepticism, criticism and dislike of Obama aren't related to emotional states but Obama's own failures to meet an acceptable standard for the office of President?
    (5) Is there some way I can have half a burgie and half a dog? Mebbe split with someone?
    (6) Some or all of the above.
    (7) Other.

    Parent

    Ellie... (5.00 / 2) (#29)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:32:44 PM EST
    I LOVED your comment to tben in the last thread. TalkLeft crashed before I could tell you so. You are teh funny! :-)

    Parent
    I almost fell off my chair Ellie....good one!! (5.00 / 2) (#34)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:38:24 PM EST
    Me too. (5.00 / 2) (#35)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:39:51 PM EST
    I really don't think any man should should have decision making authority over a pregnancy, not even the biological father.  

    Parent
    Loved how instantly indignant he got, too ... (5.00 / 7) (#40)
    by Ellie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:46:39 PM EST
    How DARE you enquire about my personal danglies! What gives you the right blah di blah blah.

    Welcome to my world, bub.

    I say, if I can't have medical and moral privacy then no one else should.

    And for what it's worth, I believe that my enquiries that were nuked for rudeness, though the troll's IMO more drastically invasive insolence on women's private matters remained, show how indoctrinated even fair-minded people are in the cultural skew that abortion is and will always be wrong.

    One disposable fertility pod's opinion.

    Parent

    Danglies!!! rotflmao....gasping for air (5.00 / 2) (#42)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:55:50 PM EST
    LMAO at your post (5.00 / 2) (#44)
    by RalphB on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:00:07 PM EST
    Thanks for doing that.  It was a long time coming.


    Parent
    Like I said... (5.00 / 2) (#46)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:12:42 PM EST
    when I get to decide about your vasectomy, then you get to bloviate about my ovaries.

    Otherwise, shut the f*ck up about abortion.

    Parent

    Makes me think of a great line (5.00 / 4) (#97)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:02:44 PM EST
    from "Friends," when Rachel is pregnant and ends up at the ER with what turn out to be Braxton-Hicks contractions (for those of you who don't know, they are sort of like "warm-up" contractions, and not "real" labor, but can hurt like heck).  Ross says something like, "Oh, pshhh - Braxton-Hicks, they're nothing," and Rachel's irritated response is:
    "No uterus, no opinion."

    Which pretty much sums it up for me.

    Parent

    I too have noticed (5.00 / 4) (#49)
    by Edgar08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:15:55 PM EST
    That while one may be simply interested in running a site that maintains society established rules of decorum, by doing so, one inadvertantly perpetuates some double standards that are maintained in society by those same rules of decorum.


    Parent
    Tben has an amazing ability to (5.00 / 3) (#82)
    by MarkL on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:29:56 PM EST
    string together reasonable sounding phrases to come up with the most banal idiocy imaginable. If he's not a school adminstrator, he should be.

    Parent
    school administrator (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by RalphB on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:36:31 PM EST
    or some middle manager at ibm  :-)

    Parent
    Talkleft crashed? (none / 0) (#141)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 01:20:18 AM EST
    when?

    Parent
    Do you think these so-called "analysts" (5.00 / 3) (#93)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:57:04 PM EST
    ever talk to anyone but each other?  I was listening to one of these yahoos on POTUS 08 the other day, and the "theories" he was coming up with, and his take on things - like Obama's Week-of-Speeches - was just not what real people are thinking and feeling.

    I guess it never occurs to these overpaid gasbags that Obama is not getting support from many of the Clinton supporters because he hasn't given them enough of a reason to support him - and worse, he keeps saying and doing things that are peeling off those who thought they could support him.

    Why is that so hard for these "analysts" to grasp?

    Parent

    On my mind (5.00 / 3) (#2)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:34:34 PM EST
    Bobcats.  I just saw three of them out in the open in broad daylight, two strolling across the back of my property with utter nonchalance and the third a few minutes later in the farm fields across the road from my house.

    I knew there were some around, since I've seen tracks once or twice in the mud in the woods across the fields in back of my house and my neighbors accidentally trapped one in their barn a couple years ago, but I always assumed they mostly stuck to the woods and certainly didn't roam around in broad daylight this near people's houses.

    Boy, these are big, tough-looking, heavily muscled animals.

    Anybody else have any experiences with them to share?  (I'm still hyperventilating...)

    I once saw a mountain lion lounging beneath a highway. They're huge!  

    Both are beautiful critters.

    Groundhogs, on the other hand ...

    Parent

    A mountain lion (5.00 / 3) (#9)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:44:22 PM EST
    knockout gorgeous as they are, is one of a very few critters I earnestly hope never in my life to actually see in the flesh unless it's from inside an  armored vehicle or something.

    There are hardly any groundhogs and even few racoons hereabouts, thanks to the abundant coyotes and my three neighbors, the bobcats.

    I keep my own three cats in at night to improve their odds of survival, but the older of the three spends the day roaming far and wide, and these bobcats out during the day really scare me.


    Parent

    Your armored vehicle image (none / 0) (#36)
    by suki on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:41:16 PM EST
    just cracked me up.
    Do you think distemper is a possibility for them being out in the day? I've had a couple of experiences with racoons having it and being out during daytime. One was obviously sick and confused, but another acted normal the first day we spotted him. By the second day (when we were able to trap him) he was acting goofy.
    We took both of them to the vet and they were put to sleep.
    The vet said it was a merciful thing to do, but it still mad me sad.

    Parent
    Glad you liked it. (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:10:28 PM EST
    I'm also fond of those giant things on treads that people ride around in up in Churchill, Manitoba, to observe the polar bears.

    I couldn't see anything remotely "off" about these animals, although as you say, they aren't necessarily going to show it in the earliest stages of distemper infection, or rabies for that matter.

    I've done some reading up since I first posted, and it turns out Bobcats are typically active from three hours before sunset to three hours after dawn, and this would only barely be outside that window.

    Also, although they usually mate in late winter, I read that they do sometimes raise a second litter at the end of summer, early fall, so the timing would seem to be right for second mating.  That would explain the male and female together when these are normally totally solitary animals outside breeding.  It might also explain their obliviousness to where they were.

    Parent

    Scared? (none / 0) (#38)
    by Fabian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:43:02 PM EST
    Bobcats normal prey is rabbit and hare, frequently smaller mammals and birds and occasionally larger prey like deer(!) when preferred prey species are scarce.

    The average adult human should be safe enough, although small pets and livestock should be protected.  I'm gaining an appreciation of real guard dogs.  Not pets, but actual working animals.  I've read some accounts on the web that impress that a trained and capable canine is an amazing asset.  

    Googling
    "livestock guardian dogs" is a good way to read up on some of the breeds.

    Parent

    Got me the smallest of the (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by Molly Pitcher on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:19:45 PM EST
    guardian ones: a Swedish Cattle Dog (Swedish Vallhund, Vastgotaspetz).  General farm dogs, take the cattle out in the morning, bring them back at night.  Also do tracking, some rescue, agility, therapy.  Top out at 30 lbs, but not a toy--tough little Viking dog.  Mine is an excellent watch dog,  and I keep him far away from the woods critters that visit--he came from Finland, and I intend to keep him 'forever.'  The ones that live out west or in Oz really do guard.

    Parent
    Right you are (5.00 / 1) (#113)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:05:16 PM EST
    and we've got a particularly abundant crop of rabbits this year.

    I meant scared for my cats, particularly the one who likes to roam far and wide and sometimes doesn't come home for his evening meal until well after dark. Bobcats, like all predators, will take whatever presents itself for dinner, whether that's a cat or a fawn or a shrew or a rabbit.

    The other common predator hereabouts is coyotes, which are also more than happy to have domestic cat for breakfast.  If and when I get some chickens, a guard dog is something I'd consider.  But a dog can't protect cats who are wandering far afield, and I'd just as soon my cats remained terrified of all things canine, given the prevalence of coyotes.

    Parent

    Oh, cats are smart enough. (none / 0) (#119)
    by Fabian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:20:03 PM EST
    As are many critters.  The response of at least one cat to my dog was bristle, hiss and FLEE.  The ducks and geese at the local park ignore the happy go lucky dogs in favor of honking and quacking an alarm whenever my dog is around.  He's a predator and the animals can tell.  He's also perfectly social and has more than smarts, he's clever and cunning.  I thought that he was a some kind of canine genius until I read up on livestock guardian dogs and found out that independent thinking and good judgment is a common trait for that type of working dog.

    Which leads me to my perennial wail of "Why do we breed dogs so stupid?".  


    Parent

    You said it (none / 0) (#129)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:25:28 PM EST
    We breed them that way for the same reason we "breed" tasteless vegetables and fruits-- because superficial appearance is what impresses most consumers.  What's happened to some dog breeds, I'm thinking Cocker Spaniels in particular, is just criminal.

    And don't get me started on Siamese cats bred to have heads the shape of daggers!

    Parent

    I met a nice Cocker Spaniel once. (none / 0) (#145)
    by Fabian on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 04:57:04 AM EST
    It was not representative of the breed, sorry to say.  My take on cocker spaniels is that they are often neurotic and anti social.  I'll take a ditzy Golden Retriever over a mass of uncontrolled anxieties any day.

    Parent
    Bunnie bunnies bunnies (none / 0) (#126)
    by BarnBabe on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:50:56 PM EST
    So I am sitting over at my neighbors at the DR table and I keep getting distracted by these two bunnies out side playing. So we went out to watch them. There were 4. I have never seen wild bunnies just play like little kids. There were 2 of them just chasing the other one around a small tree. After 5 times they moved on to another chase with the two others. Back and forth, around trees, under trees, and looking like a merry go round while playing hide and seek and tag. Yes, they would stop and turn around and chase the chaser. It was so enjoyable watching nature have some fun.

    Parent
    Oh, gosh (none / 0) (#128)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:20:22 PM EST
    How adorable!  Interesting that bunnies play.  Usually, play is something young predators do to learn their skills.  I've had the huge pleasure of watching immature hawks of three different species  play together in the air, diving and chasing and having a grand old time while learning how to use their wings and manage the wind.

    I was once walking slowly and quietly in a nature preserve, and out of the weeds at the side of the path came the tiniest infant bunny you could possibly imagine.  I stood absolutely still and he/she wandered right up and over both sneakers on my feet, one after the other, to the other side of the path.  At that point, I heard the slighest nervous rustle from the weeds and figured Mom was there shuddering in horror at what dumb little baby was doing.

    And then I heard GD jogger coming up the path, scattering wildlife as he went, with a dog puffing and yipping along at his side.  So I stomped my foot at the bunny and he leaped into the weeds and safety, I hope.  The runner and the dog passed on by.  Whew!

    Parent

    It's been years since I've had (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:42:07 PM EST
    any nature critter experience. Would they be coming in closer for water? Or is their territory shrinking?

    I need to study up on my wild animal info for when I move to the mountains. I have a funny feeling I'll ignore common sense and be reaching for the camera, lol!~ I still remember bear rules, but not snakes (identifying). Not sure what kinda cats will be roaming.

    Parent

    No water near here (none / 0) (#12)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 05:58:35 PM EST
    and predators don't normally need water per se, they get all the moisture they need from their prey.  We have a great abundance of rabbits and various kinds of smaller rodents-- mice, voles, shrews, etc.-- so it's pretty much a dining paradise for small predators.

    Territory here has been stable for probably pretty close to 100 years.  The reasonably flat land is farmed and the ridges are left as woods.  My town is in such an out-of-the-way and boring corner of the state, there's no development pressure and virtually no new construction.

    Parent

    My only experience is with Bobcat (5.00 / 2) (#33)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:37:44 PM EST
    Goldwaithe....sorry... :)

    Parent
    Thanks for the great laugh!!! (none / 0) (#102)
    by zfran on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:25:04 PM EST
    My pleasure Zfran....these days we need (none / 0) (#110)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:56:20 PM EST
    "a whole lotta laffs" (love Pete Puma)

    Parent
    The Big Cats are exquisitely powerful + beautiful (5.00 / 1) (#89)
    by Ellie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:45:28 PM EST
    Everyone says that the lion is King of the Jungle but the lioness is the most formidable hunter on land: efficient in stealth, recon, execution and hunting in pack formation.

    The lion is more specialized towards territory-protecting muscle. So what if he has bigger hair and a better public relations crew to sing his praises?

    It frees up quality time for the femmes to be on the prowl.

    Parent

    I saw armadillo roadkill this morning. (none / 0) (#13)
    by Angel on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:01:02 PM EST
    My sister lives in NC and sent me a photo of a bobcat in her driveway.  She thought it was "cute."  I told her to get her bb gun out and scare that critter away; you don't want a bobcat attacking you.  

    I once had a buck who stalked me when I lived on acreage a few years ago.  He'd be in my yard just beside my driveway waiting for me in the mornings, then again at night when I got home from work.  Almost the strangest and scariest thing to ever happen to me.  He finally went away but it was quite frightening because I had to back my car out the drivway just to get my newspaper in the morning and my mail in the evening.

    Our neighbors spotted a coyote a month or so ago and warned everyone in the neighborhood, especially those with small pets.

    Parent

    Funny about that buck (none / 0) (#18)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:16:53 PM EST
    I wonder why he was doing that?

    I once turned a corner in an early morning walk in the Penn. countryside and came almost face to face with a small buck in a little field near the road.  I stopped and we stared at each other for a minute, and then to my astonishment (and great amusement, I confess) he stomped his hooves at me vehemently.  When I didn't run away, his courage deserted him and he turned tail and fled back into the woods.

    When I told my friends about it, this became the legendary day when a deer "dissed" me.  Heh.

    Re the bobcats-- I am actually contemplating for the first time in my life buying a gun, probably a small hunting rifle, for critter protection. A bobcat wouldn't attack a person unless it was somehow cornered or defending kits, or rabid.  But rabies is pretty much everywhere in the eastern half of the country nowadays, so it's wise to be very cautious and keep your distance.

    Coyotes in the suburbs are becoming a huge problem.  They have little natural prey there other than squirrels, so people's cats and small dogs are very much at risk from them.

    Parent

    I've always been curious about the buck. Everyone (none / 0) (#22)
    by Angel on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:22:30 PM EST
    thinks its a funny story, and I guess it is when you think about it.  A buck stalking a human?  Anyway, my brother in law, who is quite the expert about deer and other forms of wildlife, couldn't fathom it either.  The only thing he could come up with is that it was mating season....really.  

    Parent
    Wasn'tt here a moose who (5.00 / 0) (#116)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:16:13 PM EST
    was fixated on a Jersey cow I think in Maine or New Hampshire a few years ago?  Sometimes they get confused.  OTOH, Jersey cows must look pretty good to a buck moose compared to a female moose. (just kidding, I think they're wonderful creatures)

    Ask your bro-in-law about my bobcats, would you?

    Parent

    Did you wear a musk (none / 0) (#54)
    by tree on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:44:20 PM EST
    perfume?

    Parent
    I saw a whole (none / 0) (#23)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:24:58 PM EST
    frozen armadillo in an Asian market not too long ago.  

    Seriously.  

    I gotta wonder what you can cook with that?  

    Parent

    Rice pilaf? (5.00 / 1) (#24)
    by Angel on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:27:22 PM EST
    armadillo (5.00 / 2) (#55)
    by jimakaPPJ on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:48:10 PM EST
    is often referred to as possum on the half shell.

    Parent
    ROFLMAO! (none / 0) (#117)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:16:46 PM EST
    The Dog treasures rabbit. (none / 0) (#120)
    by Fabian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:27:02 PM EST
    He will eat squirrel.  But he will leave the carcasses of possum and raccoon to rot.

    I take that to mean that some things are more delectable than others.  If he's whooping it up in the middle of the night and comes in all prancing and proud of himself, I know come morning I'd best break out the spade and prepare to bury some foolish varmint.

    Parent

    He is obviously (none / 0) (#150)
    by jimakaPPJ on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 08:37:05 PM EST
    a Boomer dog..

    Does he also like Starbucks??

    Parent

    I can only picture the armadillo cake (none / 0) (#28)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:31:32 PM EST
    in Steel Magnolias.  Ugh, that red, red, roadkill-color cake.

    I think I'm off dessert for tonight.  And going vegan for dinner.  Thanks, that keeps me on my diet!

    Parent

    Wonder if you can fry it up like softshell crab? (none / 0) (#30)
    by Angel on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:33:21 PM EST
    Leg'o'lamb? Pig's feet? Osso bucco? Bear claws? (none / 0) (#43)
    by Ellie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:58:00 PM EST
    Please tell me armadillo is a cute euphemism for something and not a category of road kill.

    Otherwise, I'm glad I'm hearing this AFTER I got to grab something off the food line. :-p

    Parent

    It seems that the real (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by frankly0 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:04:15 PM EST
    effect of the argument from Obama and his camp and his supporters that Hillary supporters would be crazy to vote for McCain with his right wing policies is that they have chosen not to vote at all.

    Too bad Obama and his camp haven't found a way to convince them to vote for him, you know?

    Funny that his campaign hasn't figured out that that might actually be an issue.

    Little suggestion to Obama: get over yourself and your pride at least enough that you actually try to reach out to voters who didn't support you to begin with.

    If that is possible.

    I always loved the Byrds (5.00 / 1) (#15)
    by byteb on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:04:41 PM EST
    and this song...it's the perfect song for this Fourth of July.
    Thanks, Jeralyn.

    CNN Story with (5.00 / 0) (#31)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:34:48 PM EST
    funny photos!!

    CNN poll: Voters say both candidates flip-flop

    Look at the photos of Obama and McCain!  Obama looks like he is just yapping, yapping...  And McCain looks like he is so bored with the whole thing.

    I wonder if CNN did that deliberately?  It's funny if they did.

    I think I found a Democrat! (5.00 / 3) (#56)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:48:49 PM EST
    against (the) war
    against torture
    against warrantless spying on Americans and teleco immunity
    against the privatization of Social Security
    "troubled by the interference of partisan politics in medical decisions that a woman makes in consultation with her physician."
    doesn't take corp pac money.

    pro labor
    pro stem cell
    pro UHC
    pro environment
    pro womens rights
    pro impeachment

    just need to email and see where he stands on a couple more of "my" issues, but it sure feels good  so far. He ran in 2006 but lost. Gen Clark and Max Cleland (among many others) endorsed him then.

    It's days like this that I really love teh internets! I can sit here, find a candidate (for where I'll be living next year) read up and watch debate videos etc. Now to figure out how else to help (along with donating) 3,000 miles away!  :-D

    Who is it? (5.00 / 1) (#83)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:31:03 PM EST
    You are moving to California, aren't you?  

    I actually had a representative (state level) who was the first and only politician to ever call me at home the night before an election and ask me to vote for him.  I was so shocked!  Usually it's just one of those automated message things so talking to a real person was wild!  

    On top of all that, after he was elected, he called me out of the blue to ask me how I thought he was doing at his job!  I was really really shocked!  

    He's out of office now (term limits) but if he ever runs for anything else, I'd be sure to vote for him.  He's also a Democrat.      

    Parent

    Yup. Calaveras County (5.00 / 1) (#100)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:20:00 PM EST
    Arnold/Big Trees area. CD-3

    I'm looking at Dr. Durnston

    He looks good so far, and I like what his wife and kids are doing, for what it's worth :) I need to email him on a couple of things (Ag, trade and clarification on abortion re partial birth). I like that he mentions the backpackers thing about leaving an area better than when you arrived. I backpacked for class credits one summer in HS and went on to take some geology/science hiking courses. It was fun going around mapping and learning. Especially along the fault lines  ;)

    If you know of anyone else running I should look at, let me know! I'm just now getting good at finding info for the area. Have my food supply, vets, etc figured out. Found the local Dem group and when they meet. And found the humane society and animal control so I can work with strays. I'm all set, lol!~ Next up is to see about horse ridin' lessons so I can take my Dal on a proper road trial run :) Until then she'll have to live with hiking, river/lake play and perhaps cross country skiing. Poor thing . . .

    Can ya tell I'm excited about the move?!

    Parent

    When does it happen? (none / 0) (#118)
    by gyrfalcon on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:19:13 PM EST
    Late spring/early summer 2009 (none / 0) (#131)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:31:35 PM EST
    Kinda depends on next years weather pattern. Ideally I'd like to be there before Memorial Day. I'd like to avoid paying next summer's AC bills here in NYC! {grin}

    Parent
    On another board I used to post on (none / 0) (#143)
    by Grace on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 02:43:27 AM EST
    there was a poster who was either from Calaveras County or from somewhere around there.  He used to recommend it all the time as a good place to live.    

    I love California.  If it didn't have earthquakes, it would be perfect.  I love the scenery, I love the diverse people -- but I've never lived in New York City so I can't really compare it to that (though I think I would love NYC too).  

    Parent

    Fyi, Obama averages about 4.5 (5.00 / 1) (#71)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:05:02 PM EST
    points ahead of McCain, looking at a lot of polls in the last week on realpolitics.com -- for some context for the varying numbers in the states you cite.  

    He was averaging more than 7 points ahead a week or so ago.  I think I recall more than 8 points at some point.  No more wildly outlying polls lately; they're all pretty much in agreement now.

    My paper (Atlanta JC) printed a rumor (5.00 / 0) (#88)
    by kenosharick on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:39:30 PM EST
    that Obama is considering Dick Gephardt for veep. He was my choice for prez in 2004, and if Kerry had put him on the ticket, he would have won Missouri and the presidency. I doubt Obama goes with him either. BTW- I would like to know where those "bizarre" poll numbers of Coral Gables come from also.

    Funny story about Dick Gephardt... (5.00 / 1) (#91)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:47:50 PM EST
    Some years ago - it might have been 1999 - we were on the Outer Banks of NC on vacation, and my husband went out to play golf, thinking he would get to the course and they would just join him up with another group.  Which is exactly what happened.

    He ended up playing with Gephardt and his son-in-law - husband said he was a real nice guy.  But not a great golfer, as I recall.

    Parent

    Gephardt? (none / 0) (#142)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 01:22:51 AM EST
    I used to call him "my father's oldsmobile" in 2004.  Hardly the sign of a new kind of politics.

    Parent
    Sorry- I liked him, but- (none / 0) (#146)
    by kenosharick on Sat Jul 05, 2008 at 10:09:27 AM EST
    I was OK with Kerry. Unlike this year when I am having trouble getting on board with my party's choice.

    Parent
    FISA next week (3.50 / 2) (#48)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:13:02 PM EST
    Is it possible that Obama can come out looking good to right wingers for supporting FISA while the rest of the Senate blocks it?

    Sen Feingold's letter yesterday sent by DFA  says, "Nobody should be supporting this legislation," and DFA started an escrow fund for donations to Dems that will be withheld unless they fight FISA.

    You don't suppose there's a secret plan to stop it next week...?  DFA/Feingold letter:

    This FISA legislation gives enormous powers to the government: including the ability to read emails and text messages and listen to phone conversations of anyone communicating with their family members, friends, associates, reporters, ANYBODY who may be overseas -- all with zero court review.  Nobody should be supporting this legislation.

    We can defend our country from terrorists while at the same time protecting the rights and freedoms outlined in the Constitution.  It's time for our elected officials to stand up for the values on which our country was founded.

    We should celebrate our Constitution this Fourth of July -- and do everything we can to prevent it from being torn up when the Senate returns to Washington next week.

    Progressives everywhere have already had a tremendous impact -- with phone calls, emails, and letters pouring into offices by the hundreds (in some cases thousands), but the pressure on my colleagues to give in to this so-called "compromise" and President Bush is strong.




    In case people didn't sign it yet... (5.00 / 5) (#51)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:19:22 PM EST
    here is a link to Feingold's FISA petition.

    Russ Feingold: Now that is what a true progressive Senator looks like.

    Obama supporters in denial, take a hard look at Feingold's record of standing up for what he believes in. Then take a look at Senator Present and tell me he's any kind of liberal or progressive.

    Parent

    Did you mean Sen. Present(ly) Flip (none / 0) (#57)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:49:29 PM EST
    Flopping out of control?

    Parent
    Heh! (5.00 / 0) (#62)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:53:29 PM EST
    Well, that would be applicable to both Obama and McCain, IMHO! ;-)

    Parent
    So it's all about looking good to (5.00 / 2) (#81)
    by MarkL on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:26:42 PM EST
    right wingers?
    Good luck with THAT.


    Parent
    What is it with you and "secret plans?" (5.00 / 10) (#84)
    by Anne on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:31:07 PM EST
    Plans for Obama to head-fake the right wing and "pretend" to be a centrist, then, once elected, pivoting back to his "real" progressive persona?

    Plans for the Bush administration to "fake" attack the US just before the election, so he has an excuse to postpone them?

    Now there's a secret plan to kill this FISA bill?

    Here's something you might want to consider:

    SNAP OUT OF IT!

    If you have to channel a 10 yr old boy's over-active imagination in order to explain why it is that your candidate is morphing into whatever is to the right of a Blue Dog Democrat, and threatens to go all the way to Republican in his policies and agenda, it's because he is a horrible nominee, and you can't stand admitting or facing that.

    Enough already with the "secret plans," and stop touting "pandering" as a really, really great campaign strategy.

    Face it: you've been had.

    Parent

    Just remember (5.00 / 0) (#92)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:49:19 PM EST
    Dick Cheney is one of Barack Obama's distant cousins.  There has been a lot of research done in genetics...

    ;-)

    Parent

    Anne, you are a gem. I sure would (5.00 / 0) (#106)
    by zfran on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:32:34 PM EST
    like to sit down and discuss "stuff" with you.

    Parent
    You guys are funny (none / 0) (#132)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 11:38:18 PM EST
    telling me what I'm trying to say.  Secret plan is what I hear from anti-Obama posters here; thought I'd use it myself.  

    Parent
    I think Obama's strategy is to focus on (2.00 / 0) (#25)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:29:24 PM EST
    outreach first, outside the Dem base.  After the convention the focus will be back on the base with a huge registration drive in September and October.  The outreach to evangelicals and communities of faith right now gives the faith communities and individuals time to use grassroots efforts to further his support in that area.  Evangelical youth are especially predisposed to hearing his message and are more likely to oppose the rants of talk show hosts and church leaders spouting Repub talking points.  His pandering to religious leaders may pay off with many small faith orgs supporting him.  Much as I disagree with faith based initiatives, if he can use them to garner votes I'd rather those people voted Dem instead of Republican.  

    The more he connects with centrist voters right now, the more he'll be undermining the GOP slander strategies that will come out this fall.  Obama's already made it past too white, too black, a Manchurian/stealth Republican candidate and secret Muslim.  Now he has to expand the base and then refocus on the full base after he's the official nominee.

    Obama is not (5.00 / 6) (#32)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:36:52 PM EST
    reaching towards the center.

    He's reaching towards the far right. Unless you consider evangelical voters the center?

    And he has already stated he doesn't need the base to win. His strategy does not include HRC's voters. According to his campaign, the white working class does not vote Democratic anyway.

    You are 100% wrong on the facts.

    Parent

    Wow, that's harsh - 100% wrong? (2.00 / 0) (#39)
    by MyLeftMind on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 06:44:38 PM EST
    Let me elaborate.  I don't think evangelicals as a group are centrist.  He's reaching toward the center and he's reaching past that to the far right.  

    I hope it works.

    He'll be back in September regrouping with the base.

    Parent

    What you are trying to say is that (5.00 / 4) (#45)
    by Grace on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:02:54 PM EST
    Obama is overreaching.

    Yes he is.  We could have told you that.  

    He's reaching so far out to the right, I have fears that he'll fall off the edge.  

    Parent

    Devious plan to 'Regroup' w/the base in Sept, huh? (5.00 / 8) (#53)
    by Ellie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:34:14 PM EST
    Wow, what kind of super genius thinks the "nowhere else to go" base just freezes into immobility until he and his team return their attention to blurbing directions at us?

    And yet this scheme is so cunning how can it fail, what with Obama powering forward on his Acme jet-powered roller skates except -- in one statistically insignificant possibility -- upon finding the base nowhere in sight, being conked by the Acme anvil he launched earlier in the 'toon?

    But since super geniuses factor in all the obvious constants (eg, base has nowhere else to go) any possibility of extreme failure is negligible.

    Parent

    Looks like we might be better off (5.00 / 1) (#58)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:51:04 PM EST
    trading in Wily Coyote for The Brain... :)

    Parent
    You can browse the Acme Catalogue online! (5.00 / 0) (#77)
    by Ellie on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:17:49 PM EST
    Finally, the hardware req'd by super geniuses is showcased in the Acme Catalogue online.

    I'm immediately drawn to the Acme Ultimatum Dispatcher.

    The depicted Ultimatum says, "surrender or be blown into 670,000,002 micro-cells."

    You can't imagine how it would simplify my day. If I had a buck for how often I say a version of that, I could afford one or back some serious R&D into getting one to the Beta stage.

    Parent

    But-but-but... (5.00 / 1) (#59)
    by madamab on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:51:58 PM EST
    what if the Road Runner just beep-beeps and runs away, and Wile E. Obama drops the anvil on himself by mistake?!

    We really are a cartoon nation, aren't we?

    Parent

    Obama quite purposefully avoids dKos like the plague --- despite the, erm, "virality" of support for him there --- and you think he'll be back, come September.

    He got your vote in the primary. That's all he wanted. Not to mention, he's already left you in the dust, and you don't even realize it yet. Which is actually kind of sad.

    Parent

    He really did only want some (5.00 / 5) (#67)
    by Cream City on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:59:56 PM EST
    to be Dems for a Day.  Well, maybe two days, including that one in November.  But in between?

    Parent
    I think it's ... (5.00 / 4) (#73)
    by The Poster Formerly Known as cookiebear on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:09:01 PM EST
    ... a Cinderella complex or something. On the part of the fans, that is.

    Obama sweeps them off their feet, saying all the right things, then BAM! He's gone, off making his next conquest.

    Meanwhile, his fans are left so starry eyed that his absence is excused with every manner of - um, something. I kind of ran out steam. Sorry, but I haven't had dinner yet.

    Must go grub in fridge!!!!

    Parent

    What makes you think left wing (5.00 / 3) (#80)
    by MarkL on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:25:56 PM EST
    Democrats are his intended base?
    I see no sign of it. He plans to get their votes simply by virtue of the (D), but his real base is far to the right of the Dem. party.

    Parent
    Won't he be surprised if the base doesn't (5.00 / 2) (#122)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:31:07 PM EST
    wait around to regroup with him.

    Parent
    So let me get this right..Obama (5.00 / 5) (#104)
    by zfran on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:30:14 PM EST
    flips on all the issues that make dems, dems, he lies in the primary to get the nod, he moves to the center to pander to new/youth/evangelistic voters and then he comes back to take care of the rest of us who listened to his lies? We should then vote for him because we are an understanding party who forgives and forgets and moves on? I want a president who thinks about this country first, not about his needs or wants. If you always take both sides of every issue, then you stand for nothing. I want someone who is a fighter and a leader....Obama has turned out to be neither!!!

    Parent
    YOU GO GIRL.... (5.00 / 1) (#111)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:58:10 PM EST
    Tell him to round up at least one evangelical (5.00 / 2) (#121)
    by MO Blue on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:28:42 PM EST
    here in MO to replace my vote.

    Strange world when the far right religious folks are labeled centrist voters. But then in Obama World everything is possible.

    Parent

    I'm not a fan of the 4th. It seems to be little more than a holiday designed as an excuse for people to get drunk and kill other people with their cars or little kids to sustain 3rd degree burns or teenage boys to blow their fingers off or wreckless young fathers to drown by flinging themselves off the cliff into the water to impress their toddler sons on and on and on.

    Easter is so much better. I much prefer the food (lamb and spring peas vs. hot dogs and queso? no contest!) and it isn't nearly as loud and everybody's not determined to see how drunk they can get or how many illegal fireworks they can put down toilets or under running vehicles and cats don't get blown up - although there is the lamb issue - and etc.

    All in all, a much better holiday.

    Chinese New Year is the only respectable excuse for fireworks.

    < /spoilsport >

    It's the only time (5.00 / 1) (#47)
    by Fabian on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:12:48 PM EST
    people can indulge in illegal fireworks (in OH and other states) and not get in trouble for it.  I think the Fourth is the biggest time for general law breaking, at least technically.

    OTOH - I was this close to calling police dispatch one night when some merrymakers apparently had an unlimited supply of bottle rockets and such.    Enough is enough, folks.  

    Parent

    Obama still bouncing. (none / 0) (#64)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 07:56:31 PM EST
    Most pollsters have taken a long weekend but here are some relevant new ones.

    Georgia -       McCain +2
    Montana -      Obama +5
    Washington -  Obama +8
    New York -     Obama +31
    Rhode Island - Obama +28
    Connecticut -  Obama +22

    lol....where did these polls come from? (none / 0) (#69)
    by PssttCmere08 on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 08:03:40 PM EST
    Here You Go (none / 0) (#98)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:07:20 PM EST
    All from the last two days.

    Georgia - Insider Advantage
    Montana - Rasmussen
    Washington - Strategies 360
    New York - Rasmussen
    Rhode Island - Rhode Island College
    Connecticut - Research 2000


    Parent

    I wonder where they polled in NY? (5.00 / 0) (#101)
    by nycstray on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 09:21:50 PM EST
    There's a lot of red space here . . .

    Parent
    Advertising map expands? (none / 0) (#114)
    by CoralGables on Fri Jul 04, 2008 at 10:10:00 PM EST
    If you just average the NY polls from June, Obama is at +21. Put that with an average of June polls from New Jersey where Obama is at +10 and the Dems may not even have to invest in the expensive NY media market. The money saved there could lead to lots of ad buys in places like Virginia, Montana, Nevada and Colorado to make progress in those previously red states.

    Parent