home

Palin Costing McCain Support in Florida

The St. Petersburg Times has been conducting focus group testing on undecided voters.

Five weeks ago, the St. Petersburg Times convened a group of Tampa Bay voters who were undecided about the presidential election. Their strong distrust of Barack Obama suggested it was a group ripe for John McCain to win over.

Not anymore. The group has swung dramatically, if unenthusiastically, toward Democrat Obama. Most of them this week cited the same reason: Sarah Palin.

Among the comments: [More...]

"The one thing that frightens me more than anything else are the ideologues. We've seen too many," said 80-year-old Air Force veteran Donn Spegal, a lifelong Republican from St. Petersburg who sees McCain's new running mate as the kind of "wedge issue" social conservative that has made him disenchanted with his party.

"I'm truly offended by Palin,'' said Republican Philinia Lehr, 37, of Largo, a full-time mother with a nursing degree who voted for George Bush in 2004. Like Palin, she has five children and she doesn't buy that the Alaska governor can adequately balance her family and the vice presidency.

One more:

"That was almost insulting," Democrat Rhonda Laris of Temple Terrace, another strong Clinton backer skeptical of Obama, said of the Palin pick. "Do they think we're really stupid? … I'm definitely leaning toward the Democratic side now. Sarah Palin scares the crap out of me."

One thing about these voters. They are not supporting Obama because they have been persuaded by him. It's opposition to Palin.

Obama is not making inroads because of anything he has done or said. It's more that McCain has repelled these swing voters in the biggest battleground region of the biggest battleground state. In several cases, voters who had sounded hungry for a reason to vote for McCain now sound resigned to settling for Obama.

Sarah Palin, Polarizer in Chief.

On a related note, Marist released poll results today showing Obama doing better than McCain in Ohio, PA and Michigan.

Update: Republican strategist Ed Rollins just said on Anderson Cooper's show that if Sarah Palin is still the topic in a few weeks, the Republicans won't win.

< Friday Open Thread | Dallas Inmate Freed After 25 Years, DNA Proves Innocence >
  • The Online Magazine with Liberal coverage of crime-related political and injustice news

  • Contribute To TalkLeft


  • Display: Sort:
    Well, we have focus groups and then (5.00 / 5) (#2)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:58:25 PM EST
    we have polls. At the moment, it seems to me like McCain has his 51% in Florida. That could change, but I don't think that Palin alone has changed it.

    You're a smart person, andgarden (none / 0) (#3)
    by rdandrea on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:01:30 PM EST
    And I enjoy reading your analysis of polls.

    Surely you must know that polls tell you what, and focus groups tell you why.

    Ignore either at your own peril.

    Parent

    This focus group sure isn't telling us (5.00 / 4) (#4)
    by andgarden on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:06:03 PM EST
    why McCcain remains ahead in the polls in Florida. (Yes, I believe SUSA, and in Florida, we can count on ties going to the Republican)

    Parent
    I am a Floridian (none / 0) (#70)
    by Amiss on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:10:00 AM EST
    granted I live in North Florida, near Tallahassee, and les than an hour from Georgia, even tho I feel McCain is ahead atm, I do feel he is losing his lead among Hispanics and the Jewish vote, and Obama is gaining inroads more and more.
    IMHO only.

    Parent
    forget ties (none / 0) (#133)
    by Dadler on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 10:42:09 AM EST
    In certain states, imo, McCain will "win" races in which he is the one with fewer votes.  The joys of electronic voting on, essentially, Republican equipment.

    Parent
    11 people. (5.00 / 4) (#5)
    by coigue on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:07:15 PM EST
    11 PEOPLE.

    Parent
    andgarden is smart enougt to know. . . (5.00 / 4) (#14)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:41:49 PM EST
    that polls tell you what a statistically representative group of people feel, while focus groups tell you why a very small, not representative group of people feel the way they feel.

    Parent
    I disagree -- focus groups have limited (5.00 / 3) (#44)
    by Exeter on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:29:53 PM EST
    value.  This is not a good use of a focus group and is pretty absurd.

    Parent
    Certainly do not build a news story (5.00 / 1) (#75)
    by hairspray on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:34:08 AM EST
    around a focus group. A few years ago NPR selected several large focus groups in several regions across the country. They grouped them according to criteria and later returned several times to the same people over an 18 month period.  Those reports were quite interesting because they plotted changes or no changes in attitudes.  

    Parent
    It is hard to do months long (none / 0) (#130)
    by inclusiveheart on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 09:09:51 AM EST
    tracking when few people in America knew who Palin was three weeks ago.

    Supposedly her favorable/unfavorable rating is not trending in a positive direction for the McCain campaign to the extent that she will make a difference at the all important poll on that first Tuesday in November.

    Parent

    On the whole mother/work thang... (none / 0) (#112)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 03:19:42 AM EST
    I don't care for George Will at all. But, last Sunday, on some round-table talk show, they were talking about one of the subjects raised in this post: whether Palin can balance parenthood and her prospective job as VP.

    *George Will piped up and said: "Well, in 22 states, it's against the law to ask someone if they can balance work and kids"? You know, employment discrimination, or whatever.

    I thought, well finally old George has earned his keep.

    Parent

    What has Palin done to be polarizing? (5.00 / 8) (#6)
    by myiq2xu on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:11:57 PM EST
    I recall the same criticism of Hillary, with the same lack of rational basis.

    This is a serious question.

    Because (5.00 / 1) (#11)
    by Faust on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:36:44 PM EST
    she excites the Republican base, and freaks out the democratic base. This is called polarizing.

    Now, is there a lot of data for this? I have no idea because I personally have no investment in the "polarizer in chief" theorem.

    However, if you wanted to disprove said theorem then you would want to come up with some polls that show how she has had no effect on the base of each party.

    Of course, you knew that.

    Parent

    I agree she has that effect (5.00 / 3) (#27)
    by myiq2xu on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:01:06 PM EST
    Especially the part about freaking out the Democratic base.

    But why?  She's basically a mainstream conservative Republican.  She is nowhere near a radical fringe neocon.

    Parent

    Is it true or not... (5.00 / 1) (#32)
    by Thanin on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:05:01 PM EST
    is she pro creationism?  Is she against abortion even in the case of rape and incest?  Did she try to ban books?  Are parts of her state administration avoiding subpoenas, much like the bush administration has?

    If these are flat out untrue, then you have a case.  But if these are true and youre trying to make this about her gender, then you  have no case.

    Parent

    Huh. Short answers. (5.00 / 5) (#40)
    by lansing quaker on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:21:42 PM EST
    is she pro creationism?  Is she against abortion even in the case of rape and incest?  Did she try to ban books?  Are parts of her state administration avoiding subpoenas[?] [M]uch like the bush administration has?

    1. No.
    2. Yes.
    3. No.
    4. Yes/No.


    Parent
    I also read that the librarian was a (5.00 / 8) (#81)
    by hairspray on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:48:48 AM EST
    big supporter of the incumbent mayor and that the fight to unseat him was hard fought.  Palin was thought to have wanted to get rid of some of the "bad blood" but the citizenry complained and she relented.  This does not sound like something that hasn't happened in hundreds of local situations all over the country.  We have a boat load of stuff in my town and it is a Democratic cesspool IMHO.  I have read a number of different reports from different factions in Alaska (AP) reports that simply undercut many of the Democratic talking points.  I am very touchy about these attacks having had my fill of them when they were going after Hillary.  I have become and independent because of this party's crap.

    Parent
    You are (5.00 / 8) (#122)
    by sas on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 07:02:20 AM EST
    so right.  I have re-registered as an Independent .  The left-wing smear machine went into action to discredit Palin, spreading half-truths and lies from the get go.  This does not mean to say that the right-wing smear machine isn't in action against Obama.  

    I take all this with a discriminating eye.  Local politics has so much backbiting.  It is almost impossible to tell what is true - so much depends on the agendas of the person at hand.  Small towns are particularly vulnerable to this he said/he said kind of infighting.

    Tell me what you know - not want you want me to know.

    Parent

    Today my local newspaper (SFgate.com) (none / 0) (#142)
    by hairspray on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:07:29 PM EST
    is running an interesting piece on the public statements of the campaign in one grid, and alongside of it another grid with the truth or lie in the statement. Both McCain and Obama come in for some criticism. Very interesting.  Ask you local paper to do the same.  The author here is Joe Garofoli.  

    Parent
    Why not try reading more than one source (5.00 / 5) (#94)
    by andrys on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:05:53 AM EST
    and also checking factcheck.org and politifact.com if you care to know the truth of these things beyond one article.

      I also offer a whole page of articles for you to peruse, tiresome as it may be for me to mention, it but it's tiresome to see the same old arguments based on a very narrow subset of data (like talking-points) and the wish to make much out of little.  There are many more solid reasons to not vote for her, and as much as I was horrified by her initial interest in possibly banning a book, she didn't do it.  And note this, please, even if it's not in campaign talking points.  She had a NEW librarian of her CHOICE in the 2nd term and would have been able to control the hiring and still did not ever ban a book.

      So the answer to the specific question given was correct.

    Parent

    This is a handy Palin (5.00 / 1) (#135)
    by rennies on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 11:19:02 AM EST
    Fact or Fiction list:

    http://tinyurl.com/6m7kzo


    Parent

    Ok see... (none / 0) (#45)
    by Thanin on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:30:37 PM EST
    the abortion thing bothers the heck out of me (Id use much stronger words, but I cant here), but then again Ive always been a raging Pro Choice person.

    Parent
    She's also pro-contraception (5.00 / 3) (#51)
    by nycstray on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:40:29 PM EST
    sure, she would prob prefer abstinence, but she's not against. She's also not for expanding the gov in faith based, which Obama is for (unless he's flipped!). And that is where things get sticky if Obama wins but the HHS proposal gets through (the one Hillary is fighting).

    Parent
    :-) So, you'd be a polarizing person on choice! (5.00 / 2) (#93)
    by andrys on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:58:01 AM EST
    Ha! (none / 0) (#98)
    by Thanin on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:16:06 AM EST
    I'll gladly wear that title.  =D

    Parent
    I hate to be in the place of defending Palin (5.00 / 3) (#77)
    by hairspray on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:41:34 AM EST
    but so much of the things you toss out are not completely true.  It is like throwing mud against the wall and seeing how much of it sticks.  She has said about creationism "I don't pretend to know how all of this came about, but I do think discussing creationism and evolution should be considered.  It can't hurt to discuss these things."  I am paraphrasing. But lots of people think that is perfectly alright.  It is when we can't teach evolution because the creationists won't allow it or when we want to call creationism a valid scientific theory that it is time to freak out.  Your other items are just as poorly thought out.  What I have heard her say is that she believes in overturning Roe. That is a deal breaker.

    Parent
    Hold up... (none / 0) (#83)
    by Thanin on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:49:42 AM EST
    I wasnt telling people these are things she definitely believes, I was, in all earnest, asking if these were things she believes/has acted upon, since I dont know 100% either way.

    Parent
    Look downthread at my AP report. (5.00 / 6) (#89)
    by hairspray on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:13:27 AM EST
    it is another side to the story. There is enough to dislike about her without stories that have just a little truth and a lot of inuendo.  This so reminds me of what the blogger boys did to Hillary and what the right wing did to Bill.

    Parent
    Hillary and sexism are not the topic (none / 0) (#90)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:22:07 AM EST
    This forum used to allow side-sentences that (5.00 / 5) (#95)
    by andrys on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:08:09 AM EST
    very much PERTAINED to the dynamic that is happening with Palin and which happens with Obama too with a fringe group but I'm hoping that this is not now a fringe group.  I hate seeing it in either case, on either side.

      Whatever happened to conversation here?

    Parent

    I respectfully disagree. (3.66 / 3) (#141)
    by hairspray on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 11:58:34 AM EST
    Simple Answer (5.00 / 0) (#65)
    by Socraticsilence on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:20:24 PM EST
    She's worse on choice than Bush.

    Parent
    and worse on that than anyone, including (5.00 / 1) (#96)
    by andrys on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:10:28 AM EST
    Mccain!

      As they agreed on Morning Joe the other day, at least she is consistent.  If Life begins at 'conception' then that Life and its potential has real meaning to other people, beyond any other considerations except physical danger to the mother.

      However, I don't agree with Palin and as said earlier in this thread, it's a deal breaker.

    Parent

    last time I checked (5.00 / 2) (#86)
    by Iris on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:59:25 AM EST
    the "mainstream" of the Republican party was pretty far to the right!  And that's the point.

    Parent
    Just as the Repubs call us 'The Far Left' (5.00 / 1) (#97)
    by andrys on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:12:05 AM EST
    There is no real conversation between the parties anymore, and too often, within the parties either, when views vary.

    Parent
    Ahh I see where you are headed now. (5.00 / 1) (#132)
    by Faust on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 10:10:48 AM EST
    But no.

    Lets be clear here. The Republican party ID is not, relatively speaking, in good shape. Part of the reason McCain is doing as well as he is is precisely because he has some teflon coating that protects him from strong association with the Republican brand. This is ALSO why he was having some trouble with his base.

    Sarah Palin was chosen, at least in part, to help him with that problem.

    Now why does she activate the Republican base? Well, apparently, she is viewed as "one of them." James Dobson just loves her. After her selection he got right on board. I've seen nothing but positive comments about her from the fundies.

    And guess what? Who the fundies like, a good swath of dems hate. Culture war bro. Culture war.

    Course none of the above is what you were angling for.

    But again, you knew that.

    Parent

    Huh? (4.00 / 1) (#129)
    by WS on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 08:55:03 AM EST
    Wasn't Bush considered a "mainstream conservative Republican" or compassionate conservative back in 2000?!!  We've seen this movie before and its a disaster movie.

    And since when is a "mainstream conservative" acceptable?  I'd rather have center left, liberal or progressive any day of the week.  

    I think the PUMA's antipathy for Obama is warping their view of the parties, the Republican ticket, and what they represent.    

    Parent

    exactly (none / 0) (#165)
    by Iris on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:50:36 PM EST
    hate and bitterness do funny things to people.

    Parent
    Huh? PUMAs? Where did that enter (none / 0) (#171)
    by Cream City on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 06:34:16 PM EST
    into this?  I've looked upthread and don't see it.  Nor have I seen PUMAs here for weeks, as they were run out.  What are you seeing?

    Parent
    well (5.00 / 0) (#16)
    by call me Ishmael on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:45:30 PM EST
    don't you think it might be her stands on the issues, stands that are becoming clearer over time.  Her claims that people don't cause global warming (people who live near hurricane paths may not welcome this), her opposition to the right to choose no matter the circumstance, her believing that creationism should be taught as a science, her clear appeal to the most conservative of the evangelical community, etc.  Remember Gore actually won Florida, there have apparently been democratic inroads there in the last few years on terms of voter registration etc, and the sense that she and McCain are chafing at the bit to go to war with Spain (oops I mean Russia) may not play so well.

    Parent
    You need to sep some of her personal (5.00 / 4) (#20)
    by nycstray on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:50:51 PM EST
    beliefs from how she actually governs. Otherwise, you're just passing on fiction :)

    Parent
    The question (5.00 / 0) (#22)
    by call me Ishmael on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:54:03 PM EST
    was why she might be polarizing.  Why is passing on information about her personal or should I say political beliefs "fiction."  If she had her way as a public policy matter she would ban abortion under any circumstance, have creationism taught in science classes, "drill, drill, drill" and not seek to curb oil addiction, etc.  These are not simply her personal opinions.  Again why is that "fiction" and why can't those be the reasons she is polarizing?  I don't follow your logic.

    Parent
    Got backup? (5.00 / 7) (#47)
    by nycstray on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:32:13 PM EST
    She also just said she's not about to "shove her religion down people's throats" (FOX interview last night)

    You need to separate her personal beliefs from her actual governing. Not doing so brings in the fiction. You'll see in some instances (rights for same sex state employee couples for example), she has gone with the constitution or voters preference over her beliefs. I have yet to see any proof of her governing with her bible. And if you go back and read up on the creationism issue, you'll see where she's coming from. IOW, it's ok to talk/debate it if it comes up along with evolution. Nothing about it being required, unless you have a source I've missed.

    Parent

    hmm (5.00 / 3) (#49)
    by connecticut yankee on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:35:34 PM EST
    She also said, "I told them no but no thanks".  I dont think her ability to spin and lie is in question.

    If you arent familiar with creationist terms then you might not recognize the "teach the controversy" approach.  She uses classic creationist rhetoric in the gubernatorial debate which I quoted somewhere above.  There is also a named source saying she fought to get creationists on the school board in wassili.

    Parent

    the whole (5.00 / 1) (#56)
    by call me Ishmael on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:44:46 PM EST
    teach the controversy thing is a fairly classic technique to get creationism taught in the schools.  As opposed to governing with her Bible sure she may be a realist and not fight losing battles.  But aren't we supposed to ask what politicians would like to do?  Not what we think they can get away with?  
    I'm sorry if I am skeptical about some of her recent comments trying to moderate her earlier statements now that she is on a national stage.  I can remember a recent presidential candidate claiming to be a compassionate conservative and calling for a humble foreign policy.  Eight years is more than enough for me.

    Parent
    Palin does not believe (5.00 / 6) (#28)
    by Inky on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:01:22 PM EST
    that Creationism should be taght as a science. She raises enough legitimate cause for concern than you don't need to distort the truth. While Palin did once say in a debate that she supported creationism alongside evolution in public school, she retracted those remarks and clarified her podition two days later.

    In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms:

    "I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."

    She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state's required curriculum.

    ....

    Palin said she thought there was value in discussing alternatives.

    "It's OK to let kids know that there are theories out there," she said in the interview. "They gain information just by being in a discussion."

    That was how she was brought up, she said. Her father was a public school science teacher.

    "My dad did talk a lot about his theories of evolution," she said. "He would show us fossils and say, 'How old do you think these are?' "

    Link

    Maybe her position still is bothersome to you, but it's not as you have portrayed it.

    Parent

    well (5.00 / 1) (#43)
    by connecticut yankee on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:29:05 PM EST
    Thats not the full story.

    "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of education. Healthy debate is so important, and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both."  

    She said that in the gubernatorial debate and according to a named source in Salon helped to get YEC creationists put on the town school board.

    After the debates she backtracked a bit (or clarified if you prefer) with the bit you quoted.  In my opinion she was simply informed that the issue was a stinker. SHe didnt have the power as governor to decide the issue so why take the heat? It's already been decided by the Supreme Court.  She won't be able to deal with the issue without a friendlier court.

    Parent

    Here is another aspect to the story (4.20 / 5) (#85)
    by hairspray on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:55:32 AM EST
    Palin has not pushed creation science as governor
    By DAN JOLING - 5 days ago
    ANCHORAGE, Alaska (AP) -- As a candidate for governor, Sarah Palin called for teaching creationism alongside evolution in public schools. But after Alaska voters elected her, Palin, now Republican John McCain's presidential running mate, kept her campaign pledge to not push the idea in the schools.
    As for her personal views on evolution, Palin has said, "I believe we have a creator." But she has not made clear whether her belief also allowed her to accept the theory of evolution as fact."I'm not going to pretend I know how all this came to be," she has been quoted as saying.
    McCain said during a debate last year that he believed in evolution when it came to the origin of life.
    When asked during a televised debate in 2006 about evolution and creationism, Palin said, according to the Anchorage Daily News: "Teach both. You know, don't be afraid of information. Healthy debate is so important, and it's so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both."
    In a subsequent interview with the Daily News, Palin said discussion of alternative views on the origins of life should be allowed in Alaska classrooms. "I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum," she said.
    "It's OK to let kids know that there are theories out there. They gain information just by being in a discussion."
    Palin said during her 2006 gubernatorial campaign that if she were elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add creation-based alternatives to the state's required curriculum, or look for creationism advocates when she appointed board members.

    Palin's children attend public schools and Palin has made no push to have creationism taught in them.
    Neither have Palin's socially conservative personal views on issues like abortion and gay marriage been translated into policies during her 20 months as Alaska's chief executive. It reflects a hands-off attitude toward mixing government and religion by most Alaskans.
    "She has basically ignored social issues, period," said Gregg Erickson, an economist and columnist for the Alaska Budget Report.

    Parent

    quote/link but don't reprint (none / 0) (#91)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:23:43 AM EST
    articles. It's against copyright laws and it takes up too much space/bandwidth

    Parent
    I am sorry. I have tried the link advice (none / 0) (#154)
    by hairspray on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:37:55 PM EST
    given to me by kind folks here, but for some reason I have not mastered the trick.  I will keep working on it because I would love to be able to do it.

    Parent
    Ishmael, some inaccuracies here (5.00 / 5) (#100)
    by andrys on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:34:10 AM EST
    Over the last year, her words have been that global warming is "not necessarily" caused by man.  There are scientists who feel the same way.  She now feels it's certainly possible.

     In the meantime she set up, in Alaska, a Climate Change SubCabinet with a Climate Change Strategy

      People who live near hurricane paths don't know the causes any more than you and I do.  I hope you don't really believe  a series of hurricanes never happened in the past.   I personally believe that global warming is definitely partially human-caused but I also know that it has happened in cycles naturally too.

      Right to choose -- she does have one exception (and this is her most radical stance and probably the one most likely to kill the McCain ticket) and that's only if a mother would die without an abortion.  I'd not want her appointing Supreme Court Justices, though I will add that she has shown disinterest in pushing legislation banning abortion and has obstructed such legislative pushes as she's more interested in other things.

      You won't find any source that she wants creationism taught as a science unless in some crazy talking-points memo from some group that loves simplistic point-making based on almost nothing.  She has said that she thinks it can be discussed within a science class in that people who are religious should be allowed to ask about it and then the teacher explains how evolution works rather than refuses to acknowledge the family-raised belief -- causing no real communication and less effect.  She has said there was no need for a course to be made on it but that it could be brought up.  (I would add that there should be a regulation that it be brief and not interfere with the time spent on scientifically based information in a science class.)  Her father was a science teacher.

      If you take the time to read the Full Transcript of the UNEDITED interview with Gibson, you won't keep (I hope) making false statements about her chafing at the bit to go war with Russia.  This is based on Nothing.  The question was about NATO support of MEMBER countries and what might happen if Georgia was allowed to be a member of NATO and she said only "Perhaps so" that we'd have to "help" because NATO Agreement demands that member nations help one another in certain situations of invasion.

    I realize I'm speculating you have that much interest, as your list is a set of mostly-false campaign points seen over and over again.

    Parent

    Palin is. . . (5.00 / 2) (#17)
    by LarryInNYC on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:48:50 PM EST
    the Bush Presidency distilled into a single person.  The religion-over-science.  The loyalty-over-competence.  The disregard for legislative oversight.

    Parent
    I dont know... (5.00 / 0) (#71)
    by Thanin on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:11:17 AM EST
    how polarizing this is, but palin is consistently against Native Alaskan Subsistence Fishing and hunting territories, seeking to invalidate all the subsistence fishing regulations the federal government has issued to date to protect Native fishing.

    She also argues that Natives have no right to their sovereignty despite federal recognition.

    Parent

    yes, I have a whole draft post on this issue (5.00 / 0) (#72)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:25:44 AM EST
    I received from a lawyer that begins:

    Palin has attacked Alaska Native Subsistence Fishing Perhaps no issue is of greater importance to Alaska Native peoples as the right to hunt and fish according to ancient customary and traditional practices, and to carry on the subsistence way of life for future generations. Governor Sarah Palin has consistently opposed those rights. Once in office, Governor Palin decided to continue litigation that seeks to overturn every subsistence fishing determination the federal government has ever made in Alaska. (State of Alaska v. Norton, 3:05-cv-0158-HRH (D. Ak).) In pressing this case, Palin decided against using the Attorney General (which usually handles State litigation) and instead continued contracting with Senator Ted Stevens' brother-in-law's law firm (Birch, Horton, Bittner & Cherot).

    It's very long and filled with examples. I'll get it posted eventually.

    Parent

    I have read that. The facts seem to be (none / 0) (#155)
    by hairspray on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:42:17 PM EST
    there. I wonder at the intricacies of that position since her husband is a part native american indian and it seems strange that she would take that position.  Anybody understand this better?  It seems odd.

    Parent
    Not only that, but (5.00 / 6) (#19)
    by andrys on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:50:33 PM EST
    I've read interviews with people living there who say she is always seen with a child wrapped around her.  Apparently, for years she has gone everywhere, with some of the children and is very hands-on.  Thankfully, not every minute the way some think a mother should  :-)

    It's so funny that with all the good reasons that there are to not-vote for her, it can come down with some to what a 'bad mother' or a not-mother she is  ;-)

    Whatever works, I guess.

      Me, I'm all for extended family.  Coming from an Asian family, it's normal to me, and it's more-normal for European ones too.  

    Respectfully, I disagree (5.00 / 1) (#39)
    by befuddledvoter on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:17:12 PM EST
    She gives the false impression that she can do it all.  She does not.  She has the kind of help most women never enjoy.  She neglected her duties as governor.  I have read scathing critiques from her own legislators about being MIA.  Also, complaints that the legislators would not even know if she had vetoed legislation or signed on until they read it in the newspapers.  

    That is a different issue (5.00 / 6) (#42)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:27:20 PM EST
    and amazing as it may seem, many mothers are quite competent in their workplaces.

    If you have evidence that it is her parenting that is the problem with her governing, then provide that evidence.  


    Parent

    I am not asserting that at all. (5.00 / 0) (#54)
    by befuddledvoter on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:43:56 PM EST
    I do not think her neglect of her duties in office has anything to do with her being a mother.  I think it is Palin, plain and simple.

    Parent
    Has she been accused of neglecting her (5.00 / 2) (#87)
    by hairspray on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:03:51 AM EST
    duties of office.  I had not read that.  Can you link?

    Parent
    Yes, the even had (none / 0) (#139)
    by befuddledvoter on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 11:45:48 AM EST
    "Where's Sarah" buttons made up and wore them.  Just google it.

    Parent
    When were the buttons made up? (5.00 / 1) (#150)
    by hairspray on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:06:42 PM EST
    Since she was named VP nominee, I am sure there has been a concerted effort by the Democrats in Alaska to deny her credibility. And no doubt she has been on the campaign trail. But buttons?

    Parent
    Will there be "Where's Hillary?" buttons (5.00 / 4) (#153)
    by Cream City on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:27:39 PM EST
    because she is out on the campaign trail for Obama instead of working 24/7 at her job as Senator for New York -- a very needy New York now?

    Let's start a campaign to make all these women get back to their states and get to work, darn it.

    Or . . . we also could have "Where's Joe?" and "Where's John?" and "Where's Barack?" buttons made to make the other Senators get back to work in Washington, too.  I hear there's an economic crisis about which Congress ought to be doing something.

    Parent

    80% approval rating (5.00 / 4) (#109)
    by hilldemgoneindie on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:52:47 AM EST
    she has an 80% approval rating, the highest of all governors. that's a fact.

    now, back on topic, as to why she's causing mccain to lose votes in florida, personally, i think it's simply 1) a personal reaction and 2) partison.

    i'm not sure i'm comfortable with the assumption based on 11 people's opinion, but those analyses are for others to make. people either love her or hate her. it's my sense, however, that the republicans in general LOVE her. most dems HATE her, and i believe florida is mostly dems so it seems to reason she could have a negative impact in that group. and independents love her, are not sure yet or hate her. honestly, i think it'll be a squeaker right up until the election with the undecideds waiting until they're in the booth to decide.

    Parent

    Silly. Polls prove otherwise (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by Exeter on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:41:29 PM EST
    Since Palin was chosen, McCain has clearly done better in Florida.

    I am out of here (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by befuddledvoter on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:45:49 PM EST
    For whatever reason, folks seem to want to reframe my statements into sexist chatter.  Support Palin all you want.  Vote for her!! Yeh, now that is an idea!!!  Hey, let' vote for her.  After all she bore five children!!

    Ignore Them (5.00 / 2) (#61)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:10:47 PM EST
    they are trying to change the conversation by focusing on one focus group member's statement.

    The point of this thread has zero to do with Palin and motherhood or sexism. It's about what some voters think of Palin and the news article's conclusion that she is costing McCain votes.

    I could care less why she is costing McCain votes, I'm only glad that she is.

    Parent

    Jeralyn, it's about FALSE ARGUMENTS (5.00 / 5) (#106)
    by andrys on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:44:24 AM EST
    being made and they're bcoming plentiful.  You used to care about whether statements were true or not.  Now it's only about winning, it would seem.  Some of us remain interested in making arguments that are based on fact.

     

    Parent

    na (3.00 / 5) (#131)
    by connecticut yankee on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 09:58:42 AM EST
    The only false arguments I see in this thread are spread by Palin defenders using RNC talking points to dismiss legitimate inquiry.

    Parent
    If pointing out that working mothers (5.00 / 5) (#146)
    by Cream City on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:26:46 PM EST
    tend to do a darn good job of both jobs, which is what so many deleted comments did, is now a "Republican talking point" -- well, that's the saddest commentary yet on the Democratic talking points.

    Parent
    Florida Can Be In Play For Obama (5.00 / 2) (#60)
    by john horse on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:52:25 PM EST
    Palin may be costing McCain support in Florida but I think two issues are more critical in Florida.

    1. McCain favors privatization of social security.  Florida's seniors are overwhelmingly against privatization of social security.  (per Fla Politics) McCain is ahead in Florida because Obama is losing >55 voters by a 55-39 margin.  Obama just came out with an ad about McCain's advocacy of personal accounts.  I'd run that ad again and again.  Obama needs to reduce McCain's advantage with seniors and I think he has the issue to do it with.

    2. The financial meltdown.  McCain's statement that "the economy is fundamentally sound" may have cost him the election.  

    Finally, I agree with the SP Times about Palin.  She is starting to cost McCain votes.  She is being investigated for unethical behavior and she is refusing to cooperate with the investigation.  Why should we trust her?  

    I think McCain himself is costing McCain many (5.00 / 1) (#107)
    by andrys on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:48:01 AM EST
    more votes than Palin, for all her lack of applicable experience and views that conflict with our small subset here.

      Social Security - HUGE point, well made.

      And McCain's economy-statements are a huge loss for him too.

    I will add that Obama's not wanting to make a statement until a decision is made, while still talking generalities, is not a whole lot better but it's better.

       

    Parent

    Biden is a senior citizen... (1.00 / 1) (#63)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:13:40 PM EST
    I thought he was younger. He's 66, so he should be very adept at relating to seniors and making the case for Obama - in Florida and elsewhere.

    Does anybody else have the impression that Biden is being under-utilized in doing the things he's good at? Like going on the attack for Obama and calling out McCain.

    I dunno, but when Obama attacks McCain I get this weird feeling that he's being disrespectful toward his elders (no intentional disrespect to McCain on my part). I'm worried about how that's going to play in the debates.

    Parent

    can you please stay on topic (none / 0) (#67)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:25:29 PM EST
    there is an open thread if you want to discuss Biden.

    Parent
    The Wall Street meltdown (none / 0) (#138)
    by rennies on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 11:39:10 AM EST
     has taken privatization of SS off the table. Who would propose trusting their SS to Wall Street now?

    Parent
    has.

    Shr is a proven liar, a right-wing Evangelical ideologue, and a grudge-holding maker of "enemies" along the lines of Nixon. She makes Cheney look friendly by comparison. She is smart, and poised, and in my view not remotely qualified to be President.

    I don't like her one bit, and not because I'm a misogynist. (I'm really not.) I dislike her for much the same reasons as my mother, and my sister, and the woman in my life, which are also (perhaps surprisingly) pretty much the same reasons that my father and brother dislike her.

    If you dislike her, too, and will vote for Obama/Biden, I don't particularly care how progressive or retrograde your reasons may be. That is what I call the "Big Tent" school of thought.

    I usually dont (5.00 / 0) (#74)
    by Amiss on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:27:31 AM EST
    say anything but to whoever rated Don a troll, he is anything but and that was just wrong,

    Parent
    Thank you, Amiss, for sticking up for me. (5.00 / 0) (#92)
    by Don in Seattle on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:31:05 AM EST
    I do appreciate it. The '1' ratings don't bother me much anymore. I figure they mean somebody I don't know personally was moved enough -- by my opinion! -- that they took the trouble to vent their spleen.

    I like 5's (and the very rare 4) even more, of course.

    Parent

    thank you for pointing it out (none / 0) (#80)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:45:57 AM EST
    I checked all the ratings of that commenter and s/he had given out several "1"s based on point of view which is not allowed. All of his/her ratings have been removed.

    Parent
    Ooops! If that was me, I apologize. (none / 0) (#140)
    by rennies on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 11:54:11 AM EST
    I wasn't aware a ONE rating meant a troll. I thought it meant the opposite of FIVE, i.e. thoughtful, provocative, informative.

    Parent
    yup. (5.00 / 5) (#119)
    by hilldemgoneindie on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 04:24:47 AM EST
    i concur. it is somewhat alienating. y'know, something huge could happen anytime between now and the election that might change my mind (in this crazy election season i'm not ruling anything out at this point), but after continuously being called stupid, low-information, old, bitter, clingy, evil, obsolete, etc it would be pretty difficult for me to run back to the fold. not terribly long-range planning. if i'm being screwed, i like to be kissed a lot in the process. being kicked and called names just kinda ruins the mood. just sayin'...

    no one called you names here (5.00 / 1) (#151)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:11:23 PM EST
    so please don't bring what happened to you elsewhere here.

    This site does not allow name-calling and personal character attacks.

    When they are pointed out to me, I delete them.

    Parent

    Great SnowJob SquareGlasses Op-ed (5.00 / 1) (#123)
    by john horse on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 07:05:02 AM EST
    Heres a great Palin op-ed from the NY Times Charles Blow.

    Mr. McCain, on Monday you repeated your delusional notion that the fundamentals of the economy are strong. Now, the federal government is working on a deal to save that economy from collapsing. You have admitted that the economy is not your forte, so you could have used a running mate with some financial chops. (Remember Mitt Romney?)  But no. Who did you pick? SnowJob SquareGlasses whose financial credentials include running Wasilla into debt, listing (but not selling) a plane on EBay and flip-flopping on a bridge to wherever. . .

    Palin is making Mitt Romney look like the smart choice for VP.  Ouch.  Enough said.

    Oh no, not him again -- (1.00 / 1) (#127)
    by Cream City on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 07:40:38 AM EST
    the NYT's graphic designer given a column -- it must be a slow day for having to make maps there.  You must have missed our many past discussions of Mr. Blow.  Here's just one of BTD's comments on him:

    I have now read two Charles Blow columns (
    by Big Tent Democrat on Sat May 17, 2008
    By now it should be apparent to anyone that he does not know what he is talking about when it comes to politics. I suggest the NYTimes save him from further embarrassmnet and have him write about other subjects.

    Sadly, your comment shows that the NYT did not listen to BTD.


    Parent

    What does your comment (1.00 / 1) (#164)
    by glanton on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:50:02 PM EST
    Have to do with the text that John Horse quoted.
    Oh, that's right, nothing.  You don't bother to engage the quote, but just pass along an ad hominem on the Times writer.

    Parent
    You don't think a writer's reputation (1.00 / 1) (#172)
    by Cream City on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 06:38:05 PM EST
    ought to be considered in considering his writing?

    Now that's a first.  I'll tell my friends in journalism and English lit.  Of course, it will destroy a lot of their courses.  So they may not be amused.  Then again, they may find your take very amusing!

    Parent

    Importance of reputation with regards (1.00 / 1) (#175)
    by glanton on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 09:54:04 PM EST
    to the statement.  First of all you didn't "consider his writing."  What a lie.  No.  You dismissed it out of hand because of who the writer is.  There is a difference.  Second, BTD's opinion does not a "reputation" make.  Citing his comments as if you were citing a universally subscribed-to oracle.  

    And most importantly, though self-proclaimed academic authority on wordsmithing literary, journalistic, or otherwise.  No.  It isn't a first to acknowledge that a person who is wrong a lot of the time can still be right some of the time.  Or (GASP!!!) even a person you don't like, can be right.  

    And any of your friends for whom it would be a first to acknowledge this simple human truth, their classes are not worth taking anyway.  But then one might assume that the students at stake have already figured this out.

    Parent

    Interesting (4.75 / 4) (#7)
    by nycstray on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 09:25:13 PM EST
    "I'm truly offended by Palin,'' said Republican Philinia Lehr, 37, of Largo, a full-time mother with a nursing degree who voted for George Bush in 2004. Like Palin, she has five children and she doesn't buy that the Alaska governor can adequately balance her family and the vice presidency.

    So she is "offended" by Palin because Palin isn't a FT mom? Seems to me, someone must be bringing home her bacon since she's a FT mom. Why is that Ok but it's not OK for Palin to bring home the bacon while hubby helps raise the kids? Wonder what her judgment is for all those mom's that have to work a job or two or three?

    I think the "strong Clinton backers" who are insulted and say "do they think we're stupid?!", almost sound, well, stupid. They weren't supposed to be affected by the Palin pick, lol!~ To get strong Pro-choice Clinton supports, the woman would have had to be a lot more moderate/experienced.

    The retired AF guy being frightened by her sounds the most rational of the 3 (imo). Ideology, experience etc is what I would expect to hear the most. Interesting that Obama is still not making inroads on his own. Have McCain/Palin stumped FL together yet? I saw a snippet of one of their THs and she seemed pretty comfortable answering questions, and also including McCain's "strengths" in her answers.

    The sad truth (5.00 / 2) (#76)
    by Iris on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:41:14 AM EST
    is that at least some of Hillary's supporters are being incredibly stupid, and are considering or promising to vote for Sarah Palin.  I feel I've earned the right to say that they are stupid, and not be attacked as sexist, being a strong Hillary supporter and someone who fiercely decried sexism all this year.  Has anyone else noticed that the level of sexism accusations has reached heights only previously achieved by the OFB's accusations of racism?

    Some of those who are supporting McCain because of Palin are pro-choicers and gambling that the GOP won't overturn Roe v. Wade, so it doesn't matter.  History should record that perilous calculation.  Some have managed to convince themselves that Obama must lose in order for Hillary to run in 2012...even though Hillary is out there every day trying to get Obama elected.  I tried to point this out in a few comments at the Confluence but they keep getting deleted.  You have to laugh at the irony that a Hillary stronghold has now become a de facto organ of the McCain campaign!

    Folks, it's time to wake up and realize that as awful as the sexism and misogyny is in our culture right now, it does us no good to elect a right-wing candidate who is willing to cynically play off our gender sensitivities.  Sexism IS a big deal, but let's try to remember that it's not the only important thing going on in our country right now.

    Parent

    welcome, Iris (5.00 / 0) (#79)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:42:49 AM EST
    Hope you stick around. Thanks.

    Parent
    Thanks, Jeralyn (none / 0) (#84)
    by Iris on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:50:27 AM EST
    haven't commented here in a while (been busy in real life) but I really appreciate that!

    Parent
    I hear all kinds of people saying (5.00 / 1) (#82)
    by Iris on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:49:31 AM EST
    that "as a mother" or "as a woman" the attacks from the media or some Obama supporters stick in their craw.  Well, I would ask you, what about McCain's supporters who label liberals as 'evil' and 'traitors' and 'in league with terrorists'?  What about the Obama monkey t-shirts and Aunt Jemima waffles?  As a liberal, that also sticks in my craw.  Yet we treat it as a given and denounce Obama and his supporters as the most vile and disgusting individuals.  Is it only Obama's supporters that are held to a rule of civility and must be punished?  You certainly don't hear John McCain denouncing the "agents of intolerance" anymore, and yet for some reason it is the sin of the century that Obama has not denounced strongly enough sexism towards Palin...myopia is seriously setting in among my former fellow PUMA's, who obviously just cannot see straight anymore.

    Parent
    huh... (4.42 / 7) (#102)
    by hilldemgoneindie on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:38:19 AM EST
    iris, may i return your incredibly insulting comment in kind? perhaps i could say that i think everyone who claims to believe in... well, anything obama has promised and then flipped on... and have promised or are considering voting for him stupid. on this blog that would be considered verboten.

    i am a former democrat who was driven from my party by what i considered massive corruption and forced to make other choices. i will not discuss the primary as it, too, is verboten here. however, as a daily lurker and an informed voter - who happens to take that right very seriously - despite the fact that i am pro-choice, i am not a one issue voter. no, what you have stated is not necessarily sexism, but it is arrogant and frankly, rude.

    in my opinion, that attitude is exactly what has kept me and other voters disenchanted with obama from considering him at all. yes, call me and others stupid. the woman with 5 children has her opinion why she won't vote for mccain/palin. is she stupid because she doesn't agree with me? no. i might consider her uninformed, envious or narrow-minded, but to call her and others stupid simply because they have a different mindset is in itself narrow-minded and mean.

    whether mccain chose palin to excite his base or entice voters such as myself (and pretty much all of my family and friends) to vote for him is beside the point. no matter the choice, it would have ignited some and turned off others. had he chosen lieberman, i most likely would have voted 3rd party. same goes for romney.

    finally, iris, i am a woman in my fifties. my mom was a charter member of n.o.w. and a pioneer in her business career, being the first woman promoted to manager in a fortune 500 company in the 70s. without her, the women who followed in her footsteps might have waited ten or more years to have the same opportunities. she experienced harrassment, sexism, wage inequality and worked her ass off. it's ok for the black population to vote 90% for obama, whether they believe in his policies or not, but it's stupid for women to want to help a women reach the 2nd highest office in the land for the first time ever. i would have preferred that first woman be hillary, but my former party made other undemocratic choices. as far as i'm concerned, as a woman, sarah palin, compared to obama and what i consider extreme religious views that i believe he WILL inject into government if elected, is more to be PRESIDENT than obama and i'll take my chances in order to break that glass ceiling forever.

    obviously i won't be invited to stay around, but that's ok. i just think there's a double standard that needed to be addressed. i'll go back to my passive lurking now.

    Parent

    responses (5.00 / 2) (#113)
    by Iris on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 03:21:06 AM EST
    it's ok for the black population to vote 90% for obama, whether they believe in his policies or not, but it's stupid for women to want to help a women reach the 2nd highest office in the land for the first time ever.
    Here we go, back to pitting blacks against women.  I wasn't happy either, to see, AA's go 90% for Obama but women less united in support of Hillary.  But I thought we generally agreed that voting based on race or gender was silly?  Have we forgotten Clarence Thomas?  Obama supporters did in this case, but that doesn't mean we should!
    i would have preferred that first woman be hillary, but my former party made other undemocratic choices.
    That's a cop-out.  Let me say up front, I am in agreement with you about what happened with the delegates, etc.  But unless you think that somehow voting for McCain will achieve the outcomes you desired with Hillary, this is basically a vote of spite, of revenge.  Have we forgotten the 2000 election?  Are we really back to the "no differences between the 2 major parties" line?  Look what happened the last time we had a "Reformer With Results."
    as far as i'm concerned, as a woman, sarah palin, compared to obama and what i consider extreme religious views that i believe he WILL inject into government if elected, is more to be PRESIDENT than obama and i'll take my chances in order to break that glass ceiling forever.
    I think you have it backwards there.  What made you suddenly decide to take Republicans at their word when they say they won't inject their faith in politics?  It's what they do.

    Parent
    Quote: (5.00 / 1) (#115)
    by Thanin on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 03:53:18 AM EST
    "I think you have it backwards there.  What made you suddenly decide to take Republicans at their word when they say they won't inject their faith in politics?  It's what they do."

    Yup.  As my girlfriend just said, they call it the religious right for a reason.

    Parent

    so... (5.00 / 3) (#118)
    by hilldemgoneindie on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 04:15:29 AM EST
    does obama represent the religious left then? he's a little too churchy and preachy for my comfort level. just wondering.

    Parent
    Religious left? (none / 0) (#136)
    by Thanin on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 11:25:42 AM EST
    Is that the version of Christianity that, like Jesus, believes the sick and ailing should be taken care of and that the rich should give up their possessions to help others?  The one that believes Social Justice starts with compassion?

    If thats the case, even though Im very NOT Christian, Im quite ok with that.

    Parent

    ** as my girlfriend just said (none / 0) (#116)
    by Thanin on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 03:57:04 AM EST
    to me

    Parent
    no, not. (4.33 / 6) (#117)
    by hilldemgoneindie on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 04:13:14 AM EST
    Here we go, back to pitting blacks against women.

    not pitting blacks against women. making a point. how many times did i hear, oh, we want a woman, just not THAT woman (hillary). now palin has become THAT woman. what the hell kind of a woman will women rally behind. seriously. i seriously want to know to what standard must a woman reach to be acceptable to the majority of women AND men?

    That's a cop-out.

    well, that's your opinion. originally i planned on voting for mccain out of spite. that's no longer true. for you to make that assumption is well, your personal opinion but has nothing to do with my choices. i do not hope that voting for mccain will garner the achieve the outcomes that voting for hillary would. unfortunately, voting for hillary is not an option. but for you to assume that voting for barack will achieve the same outcomes as hillary makes you naive - in my opinion. he is NOT hillary.

    What made you suddenly decide to take Republicans at their word when they say they won't inject their faith in politics?

    i'm not taking "republicans" at their word, i'm taking mccain and palin at their records. i tend to judge individuals by their actions. they're not perfect, but by god, based on my exhaustive research (and bill clinton's suggestion) i'll take 50% of what i agree on with them and their records over 100% of nothing. i no longer trust the democratic party to do ANYTHING they've promised. that trust was broken. and for the record, palin has not thus far injected her personal religious beliefs into her governing. the same cannot be said of obama. just the facts, ma'am.

    now, all that being said... back to the topic at hand...

    are there people in florida like me who have already made their decision one way or the other, or do they need more information? hard to tell, but i think it's too early to tell whether palin hurts or helps mccain. i don't really care one way or the other. everyone  will come to their own decision. what i say or believe, or what you say or believe won't make much of a difference. or it may. who knows. i am interested in knowing for what reasons people are deciding for or against palin. it's fascinating for me.

    Parent

    oops... correction - (3.66 / 3) (#104)
    by hilldemgoneindie on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:41:55 AM EST
    ...is more qualified to be PRESIDENT than obama...

    sorry about that.

    Parent

    Iris, I find it sad that you began (4.20 / 5) (#99)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:29:41 AM EST
    your inagural post by saying that you feel you have "earned the right" to say that "at least some of Hillary's supporters are being incredibly stupid" because they may vote for Sarah Palin.

    By way of disclosure, I would never vote for Palin, or any Republican, in a month of Sundays. However, I don't find it necessary, or politically persuasive to characterize any of her supporters as "incredibly stupid" women. In fact, I doubt that it is ever productive to characterize anybody with a divergent/objectionable opinion as an "incredibly stupid" person.

    Is it sexist? Well, the word "stupid" has a particularly corrosive effect on women, because I don't imagine there are many woman in this, or any other country, who haven't been repeatedly subjected to that characterization at some point in their lives.

    IMO, calling a woman "stupid" doesn't make you a de facto sexist, but it certainly doesn't do much to boost the average woman's self-esteem. And for any woman who is still undecided about Palin; you haven't exactly painted an inclusive picture of Obama supporters.
    Let's try to do better at laying out the welcome mat.


    Parent

    It was never my intention to single out women (5.00 / 1) (#114)
    by Iris on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 03:31:56 AM EST
    in particular as stupid.  Not all Hillary supporters were women; just look at Larry Johnson over at No Quarter for one of the worst examples of how PUMA's are using sophistry and the same types of smears that Hillary faced, but now against Obama to justify a vote for McCain-Palin. I don't mean to be offensive at all; but where I'm from you call out stupid when there's no better word to describe it.  If you get yourself caught up by the GOP's culture war trojan horse this year, as the economy is collapsing all around us, well that's just stupid.

    I still find it odd to call myself an "Obama supporter" considering all we've been through.  I still prefer to think of myself as a Hillary Democrat, a Clinton Democrat, who just actually listened to what Hillary and Bill had to say in their speeches at the convention and since.  Anyone who has any doubts about voting for Obama if you supported Hillary should take a moment to go back and watch those.  There are some big issues at stake here, folks, and a lot of people are counting on us to stop the Republicans this year.  We could start with the people who we KNOW will not get health care under McCain because he would veto it, whereas although Obama might not be the best salesman, he would sign it.  Small differences it would seem, but the range of possible outcomes couldn't be more different.

    Parent

    You say that it was never your intention (5.00 / 1) (#159)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:03:27 PM EST
    "to single out women in particular as stupid [because]...Not all Hillary supporters were women". However, that doesn't jive with your initial post.

    In your initial post you said: "I feel I've earned the right to say that they are stupid, and not be attacked as sexist..." (emphasis added). So, obviously, with this particular use of the pronoun "they", you were talking about women, "in particular".

    In your follow-up, you say: "where I'm from you call out stupid when there's no better word to describe it". I don't know where you're from, but where I'm from (small town/rural/working-class), we believe that nobody ever earns the right to call anybody else "stupid", particularly in a public forum.

    So, in the final analysis, I don't particularly care whether you are talking about "women in particular".

    I get the impression that you were particularly bugged by the exchanges you had with PUMAs, at The Confluence, just prior to your posting at TL. Shake it off, in the interest of party unity, if nothing else.

    Parent

    The whole point of (none / 0) (#167)
    by Iris on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 03:07:34 PM EST
    me saying that was because you literally cannot say anything to certain people now without being accused of sexism, or of being a paid Obama operative.  The reason I feel I've earned the right to not have those charges turned on me is that I supported HRC all the way and was livid about sexism this whole time.

    You actually make my point for me.  Are women the only ones concerned about sexism?  "They" refers to closed minded PUMA's.

    I live in a small town/rural area as well, and I stand by the notion that if someone is doing something particularly foolish or stupid, it's fair to say that you think so.  Besides, this isn't a town hall meeting, it's talkleft's comment section.  For the record, I don't particularly care whether you care.  Yes, I had an opinion that I wanted to voice and I've done so.  

    Parent

    I would expect (5.00 / 1) (#170)
    by tootired on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 03:32:40 PM EST
    that if you were livid about sexism during the primaries, you continue to be livid about the sexism directed toward Governor Palin and can separate support for her from outrage at the vitriol being hurled at her from the left. Women are not the only ones who are outraged at the sexism, and PUMAs are not the only ones who can be close-minded. I can be an Obama supporter and still be angry at how the blogs and the media have treated Palin. The two are not mutually exclusive.

    Parent
    To some people (3.50 / 2) (#169)
    by tootired on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 03:17:46 PM EST
    sexism and misogyny is the biggest issue facing this country right now. If women had a larger voice in our government, issues facing women and families would move more to the forefront. Universal health care and economic parity between the sexes would go a long way toward relieving a lot of financial woes for the average family. Women make up the majority of the Democratic Party, and the unleashing of vitriol toward female candidates from the left came as a shock to many men and women. There will be many who will respond by voting for as many women as they can - no matter which party the candidate is from to raise the level of female participation in governing to a point where it is not unusual for a woman to be running for office - any office including POTUS and VP. They recognize that volume is as important as ideology. This focus group in Florida is only reflecting the larger view of people all over the country. There are both men and women who find it difficult to picture a woman in high office. Some will couch it in motherhood and working not mixing, and others will find it hard to imagine a woman as commander-in-chief or in negotiation with other heads of state. Others will decide that she is "not qualified". Choosing Palin as his running mate will cost McCain some votes and gain him others. Just as people who dismiss Obama as a candidate need to look inside themselves to see if it is really based on his qualifications or is there a subtle racism at play, people who dismiss Palin need to ask themselves if her gender really isn't the issue. Given what has been written and said about Palin, it is hard to dismiss that sexism isn't a major issue for most voters. It's just that some of us abhor it, and others use it to diminish her. It remains to be seen if the backlash against the sexism will be large enough to propel McCain to the White House. The people that Iris has called "stupid" just have a different set of priorities. Calling them "incredibly stupid" reinforces their resolve, which is a decidedly stupid thing to do if you want Obama to win.

    Parent
    To be fair(er)... (4.71 / 7) (#108)
    by FoxholeAtheist on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:50:40 AM EST
    I looked back at a few of Iris' other posts and found some thoughtful comments that I agree with. However, I still stand by my opinion that s/he was remiss to use the term "incredibly stupid" to describe presumed "Hillary supporters" who now support Palin.

    I stand by my characterization (3.50 / 4) (#111)
    by Iris on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 03:09:13 AM EST
    because there is a real difference between supporting a candidate because you want to see their policies implemented and using sophistry to justify a vote for someone you disagree with.  I wasn't necessarily saying that any of the commenters here are stupid; I just get the sense that the "PUMA" has become all about hatred of Barack Obama and nothing else.  All the snarky references to sexism, the real AND the imagined, are just a thin film covering a seething anger and resentment.  I wanted Hillary to win as bad as anyone, and I hate the sexism and misogyny.  But it didn't happen and I'm not going to allow my bitterness over that to cause me to vote for McCain-Palin, who represent the fundamental OPPOSITE of everything that Hillary was campaigning for.  Obama's no Hillary, but they are on the same team.  You don't have to take my word for it, she's out there saying it every day.

    The PUMA's now remind me, ironically, of Obama supporters during the primaries.  They try to mind-read Hillary and interpret "signs" that she thinks Obama is a chump, or wants him to lose, etc.  Riverdaughter has taken to writing little mini-plays that imagine Bill and Hillary being as bitter and petty as so many PUMA's seem to be now.

    I can't think of another word for it except 'stupid' when people think they are going to strike a blow against sexism by voting for Palin, especially when the only justification is "I like her" or "we can agree to disagree," etc.  I guarantee you that the GOP is counting on it.  Like I said, it all just seems like so much sophistry.

    Parent

    i'm going to get in trouble for saying this... (4.00 / 4) (#120)
    by hilldemgoneindie on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 04:34:57 AM EST
    but don't you think it's sad that members of the democratic party are having to fight against the republicans AND the pumas (and other disaffected hillary supporters who may not know about puma)in a year when the dems should be about 20%+ ahead in the polls right now because the party elite ignored the votes of its members? food for thought.

    because, in that case, palin would be but a blip on the radar in florida and we wouldn't even be discussing her effect on the election. in fact, she might not even have been selected. now we'll never know.

    Parent

    It is sad, and Obama made a big mistake (5.00 / 1) (#168)
    by Iris on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 03:09:53 PM EST
    not picking Hillary.  But I think some PUMA's need to distinguish between principled opposition and petty vengeance.

    Parent
    objecting to sexism (3.00 / 2) (#174)
    by jes on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 07:51:31 PM EST
    is not petty. I will object to the day I die. The dems condoned sexism in this election. I won't vote for that ticket.

    And now I might have violated comment policy, I'm out of here till next week.

    Parent

    Actually... (4.50 / 2) (#137)
    by Thanin on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 11:32:36 AM EST
    a study done by Stanford University assesses that its his race thats keeping him from getting over the 50% mark more than anything.  I know this sounds like a 'duh' post, but there have been comments here asking why he isnt just blowing mccain away.

    Parent
    Too bad you missed my comment (4.00 / 4) (#145)
    by Cream City on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:24:43 PM EST
    and many others on this comment, Dr. M.  They were all deleted, so yours no doubt will be, while the original comment still stands.

    But your comment suggests that you would have enjoyed those comments that took this one to task, too.

    yes the comments attempting to (5.00 / 1) (#148)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:31:02 PM EST
    hijack the thread once again to motherhood and sexism have been deleted. It's one thing to disagree with the comment made by the member of the focus group, it's another to veer off where commenters took this thread.

    Parent
    She is not competent to be VP (3.00 / 1) (#30)
    by befuddledvoter on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:04:25 PM EST
    that is why I object. It has nothing to do with her family. I was merely trying to point out why the 37-year old motehr of five might object. The woman assumes Palin is doing what most women end up doing - EVERYTHING!!

    On (5.00 / 1) (#126)
    by sas on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 07:34:30 AM EST
    what basis do you say she is not competant to be VP?  Id that just your opinion or do you have concrete examples?

     Her approval rating would suggest otherwise.  Apparently she has appealed to those she is governing to this degree.  I have seen no one from Alaska question her competance as governor.

    If you disagree with her on the issues that is one thing.


    Parent

    Many Question Her Qualifications (5.00 / 1) (#156)
    by daring grace on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:43:07 PM EST
    and they're not all Democrats or liberals.

    It's hard to see how her less than two years as Alaska governor and her service as mayor and council member of a small town in Alaska DO qualify her to serve potentially as POTUS or even VP some day.

    Heck, even Biden coming from tiny, tiny Delaware has a larger constituency than Palin. And it is hard to translate the myriad demands on a POTUS or VP into a match with the experience Governor Palin has in a fairly unique setting like Alaska.

    Foreign policy? Nil. Financial markets and taxes and economic recovery? Has she had to cope with these things even in the small scale that she's worked? My understanding is that Alaska enjoys surpluses and, in fact, issues dividend checks from energy profits to its citizens.

    The question isn't prove Governor Palin's not qualified. The question is what actually does qualify her.

    Parent

    Palin is selected on Energy. (none / 0) (#163)
    by lansing quaker on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:37:47 PM EST
    Energy, not Foreign Policy.
    Energy.  Economy.  Domestic issues.

    I can find many angles from where I could attack Obama both on Foregin Policy credentials and economic ones.

    Obama said that his living in Indonesia as a child gave him a unique perspective on foreign policy.  It gave him credence.

    To me, that is no better or no worse than "I can see Russia from my house!"

    McCain is the Republican on FP.  Not Palin.
    Much like Obama is not the Democrat on FP.  Biden, supposedly, is.

    Parent

    In the alternate universe (none / 0) (#1)
    by Chisoxy on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 08:56:44 PM EST
    where she is the candidate this would be deadly.

    The "Non-Mother Thing"... (none / 0) (#29)
    by Brillo on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:01:44 PM EST
    May be detestable, but just like questions about race and age, it's gonna play a part in this election.  We should be able to discuss these issues and how it effects the campaign without everyone shutting down and using it as an excuse to lament the faults of our country.  

    Yes, we should be able to discuss (5.00 / 6) (#41)
    by Cream City on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 10:24:07 PM EST
    these issues.  But we should not be sounding like throwbacks when doing so.  If that is acceptable on a blog that claims to be liberal, then it is of concern for the future of this country.  

    The alternative is to let the throwbacks take us back to the times even before the great Pat Schroeder  -- who was a mother of young children when she was elected to Congress.  But because she was a Dem, that was okay?

    Parent

    this is about Palin's effect on voters (5.00 / 0) (#66)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:22:29 PM EST
    and her costing McCain support. It is not about the views of commenters here and whether you find something sexist that appeared in a news article or appeared here in response to one.

    Nor, is it about her views on creationism.

    There is an open thread if you want to discuss that subject -- as well as a host of blogs devoted to women's issues.

    Parent

    Jeralyn, I would expect that (5.00 / 3) (#105)
    by andrys on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:42:29 AM EST
    what people THINK her views are on creationism is certainly on topic of this thread about any points being lost.

      All I see is <slap> <slap> on anything that goes beyond Yes, True, Palin is zero,  people who disagree with us are "stupid" or "incredibly stupid" ...  

      That latter gets applause.

    Parent

    Context is lost when comments are deleted (5.00 / 4) (#121)
    by Cream City on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 05:31:38 AM EST
    that show that this was a reply after a series of comments about gender, mothering, etc.

    More to your point, your excerpts from the story clearly show that Palin's motherhood is costing McCain support in Florida.  So some commenters here applauded that concern -- and are not called out for straying.  Then other commenters here (some deleted, so that their numbers are not evident now) replied to point out that is supporting sexism for the sake of McCain losing support in Florida.  All on point, it would seem.

    Simply put, why single out this comment of mine, when so many others were commenting on that excerpt as well -- and many of them remain undeleted but also unchastised?  What is it about this comment that is singled out, and others not?


    Parent

    We ARE discussing it. (5.00 / 1) (#103)
    by andrys on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:39:13 AM EST
    nycstray (none / 0) (#62)
    by Jeralyn on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:11:41 PM EST
    you are overlimit for your pro-Palin comments.

    Apologies (none / 0) (#68)
    by nycstray on Fri Sep 19, 2008 at 11:34:59 PM EST
    I wasn't trying to be pro-Palin, just even. If they started saying this crap about Obama (and they could in some areas) I would be even about it also.

    For the record: I would NEVER vote for the McCain/Palin ticket.

    Parent

    ok, glad to hear it (none / 0) (#73)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:27:07 AM EST
    but almost all of your comments attack him and defend Palin. I'll take you at your word.

    Parent
    Jeralyn, I am not a supporter of the McCain ticket (5.00 / 6) (#88)
    by hairspray on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:09:06 AM EST
    but some of the attacks on Palin sound just like the childish jibberish on the Big Orange. I wish some would stop flinging sound bites around and research their statements.

    Parent
    don't take the bait (none / 0) (#144)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:23:47 PM EST
    and give reasons for hating Palin. This site does not hate Palin. It argues against electing her Vice President. Personal attacks will be deleted.

    Please delete comment #8, too, then. (none / 0) (#147)
    by Cream City on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:27:36 PM EST
    done (none / 0) (#149)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 12:32:11 PM EST
    now please get back to the topic -- the St. Petersburg Times focus group findings.

    Parent
    'Context is lost when comments are deleted' (none / 0) (#157)
    by Don in Seattle on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:43:11 PM EST
    From earlier in this very thread:

    Context is lost when comments are deleted (5.00 / 3) (#121)

    by Cream City on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 05:31:38 AM EST

    that show that this was a reply after a series of comments about gender, mothering, etc.

    More to your point, your excerpts from the story clearly show that Palin's motherhood is costing McCain support in Florida.  So some commenters here applauded that concern -- and are not called out for straying.  Then other commenters here (some deleted, so that their numbers are not evident now) replied to point out that is supporting sexism for the sake of McCain losing support in Florida.  All on point, it would seem.

    Simply put, why single out this comment of mine, when so many others were commenting on that excerpt as well -- and many of them remain undeleted but also unchastised?  What is it about this comment that is singled out, and others not?

    Cream City, I hereby call you out: You were against removing comments from threads, before you were for it. I agree with your arguments about context, btw.

    Parent

    Now I'm calling for consistency (5.00 / 1) (#158)
    by Cream City on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:54:10 PM EST
    at least.  I'm not for removing comments, but that is the blogger's prerogative.  But if your read before you cut and pasted, it then becomes problematic -- for those trying to read here and for the blogger worried about the record here -- to have inconsistency in removal of some on a basis that is not exercised throughout, and especially removing replies and not the original comment that then stands as if it stood  unchallenged.

    There are other problems in implementation, but perhaps that will assuage your concerns about what you see as my inconsistency.  Look again to my first word: context.  When context is lost, no wonder discussions -- and the record -- get distorted . . . and then further distorted here.

    Parent

    Consistency... (1.00 / 2) (#162)
    by Don in Seattle on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:31:13 PM EST
    Cream City, just now:
    "I'm not for removing comments."

    Cream City, abovethread (#147):
    "Please delete comment #8, too, then."


    Parent

    Pssh. (5.00 / 3) (#166)
    by lansing quaker on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:53:13 PM EST
    CC can be against deleting comments, in toto.

    If comments are deleted for one line of conversation -- motherhood and sexism -- but not the biased cheerleading, then CC is right.

    If we're going to start deleting comments, you should delete comments I find counter-productive.

    You either let it happen to the 200 comment limit on this debate, or you start to identify "personal attacks on the candidate" or ad hominems -- both of which are not permitted.

    Consistent position.  Of course, Jeralyn should do what she likes.  But calling CC out on basically saying "fair is as fair does" is ridiculous.

    Parent

    Don, as this entirely ignores (1.00 / 1) (#173)
    by Cream City on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 06:41:46 PM EST
    my effort in explaining the point to you, I will not make further efforts.  Others get it.  You could, I know, so you do not choose to do so -- and only embarrass yourself.  I wish I felt bad about that. . . .

    Parent
    So why am I not embarrassed? (none / 0) (#176)
    by Don in Seattle on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 10:01:21 PM EST
    Is it because I know the subtle difference between 'excising' a comment and 'exercising' one? (See your #158 above.) In your case, I suppose, some of your nastier comments have to be 'exorcised', which naturally leads to your confusion.

    Is it because, as I said above, I welcome your '1' ratings as the sincerest form of praise you can muster?

    Or is it simply because I know what 'consistency' means?

    I am sure, CC, you remember what it was about comment #8 that got you so exercised. (Or is it 'excised'? No -- 'exercised' is right this time.) But the rest of us don't remember. That little bit o' context is lost to history now. And context is important, as I'm sure you wholeheartedly agree, sometimes.

    CC, I disagree with most of your posts, but I have never -- not once -- called for their excision.

    Or even their exorcism.

    That's consistency.

    Parent

    My mistake! (none / 0) (#177)
    by Don in Seattle on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 10:19:45 PM EST
    Your #158 used 'exercise' perfectly correctly. My mistake entirely. (Now I am embarrassed.)

    I believe I still have you on consistency, though. Look! I'm not even calling for the removal of my own boo-boo!

    Parent

    that's why I ask commenters (none / 0) (#160)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:13:23 PM EST
    to stay on topic. I don't moderate full time. When a  comment gets deleted, if it hijacked the thread or caused people to respond off topic, I may delete the sub thread.

    I do the best I can to make the threads make sense after cleaning a thread. The final result should be a discussion of what is in the post. Other topics should be reserved for an open thread or one germane to that subject.

    I do not choose to write at this time about motherhood, sexism in the primaries, etc. Thus, comments you have on that will have to go to an open thread or another site.

    Parent

    Understandable re off-topic comments (none / 0) (#161)
    by Cream City on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 02:25:13 PM EST
    that then engender more comments -- so again, when the latter get deleted, it is appreciated that the former get deleted as well, so that they do not remain as if unchallenged by others here.

    Parent
    I don't think I was ginning up Palin-hatred. (none / 0) (#178)
    by Don in Seattle on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 11:25:26 PM EST
    I mean, the topic of the thread is the reasons why Palin is hurting McCain in Florida. Now, I'm not in Florida, granted. But it seems to me that producing (on what I, at least, took to be a sincere request) a full set of non-sexist, non-misogynist reasons for opposing Palin -- even for actively disliking her -- is entirely on topic.

    Some of my reasons were better than others, as I freely acknowledged. That is in the nature of making such a list -- some of your arguments are always going to be stronger than others. But I don't think any of my reasons, even the weakest, could fairly be characterized as any form of hatemongering.

    Parent

    hilldemgoneindie (none / 0) (#152)
    by Jeralyn on Sat Sep 20, 2008 at 01:16:35 PM EST
    is way over comment limit today attacking Obama. She is suspended.