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Brokaw Declares Keating 5 Scandal Ancient History

I happen to not care about the Keating 5 scandal myself but who am I to tell voters what to care about? But in a world where William Ayers and the Weather Underground is a topic of discussion, it seems to me that tomorrow's debate moderator, Tom Brokaw (via Atrios) has compromised himself to some degree when he agrees the Keating 5 is "ancient history:"

MR. BROKAW: John—we have to keep explaining to everyone—that Charles Keating was the Arizona developer with whom John McCain had an, a, a strong relationship, and then he got in a lot of trouble. He was prosecuted by the Feds, and John McCain said, “I made a terrible mistake here.” Yeah.

MR. YEPSEN: And it’s all ancient history, Tom.

MR. BROKAW: Yeah.

More...

Certainly if what John McCain did with Charles Keating 20 years ago is "ancient history," then Tom Brokaw must agree that what WILLIAM AYERS did nearly 40 years ago is beyond ancient history and relevance. At least the Keating 5 issue is about something JOHN McCAIN did. The Ayers issue has nothing to do with anything Barack Obama did. Besides, the American People want to know if the history we really need to worry about is from the 1930s - are we facing another Great Depression. As I recall, Brokaw wrote a book that discussed that generation of Americans. Seems he might be interested in asking about that.

By Big Tent Democrat, speaking for me only

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    They're both ancient history (5.00 / 0) (#4)
    by Militarytracy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:34:23 AM EST
    but terrorist brought the towers down seven years ago and banks are failing today and Americans have been swindled today, tomorrow, the day after that..  Our emotions matter as human beings and I'm certain that the election will reflect some of that too.

    Don't forget Bernadine Dorhn, (1.00 / 1) (#67)
    by rennies on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:32:31 PM EST
    Ayers' wife. This from an article On Ayers/ obama by Bill
     Pajamamedia:

    This from an article by Bill Owens: (http://tinyurl.com/3ng6zn)

    "For those of you unfamiliar with Dohrn and her special love of violence in the name of radicalism, one need look no further than her December 1969 rant celebrating the brutal Tate-LaBianca murders with the exhortation, "Dig it! First they killed those pigs and then they put a fork in their bellies. Wild!" According to Discover the Networks, Dohrn had even less sympathy for those who were on the receiving end of the Weathermen's violence:

    A Chicago district attorney named Richard Elrod was seriously injured in the Weatherman riot that erupted during the Chicago "Days of Rage" in October 1969, and he was paralyzed for life as a result. Dohrn later led a celebration of Elrod's paralysis by leading her comrades in a parody of a Bob Dylan song -- "Lay, Elrod, Lay.""

    Barack Obama never set any bombs. But he's never had problems with associating with those who did.


    Parent

    i hardly think the Twin Towers terrorists (none / 0) (#36)
    by Iris on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:42:27 PM EST
    and William Ayers are comparable at all.  Teenagers angry at the US government for its actions in Vietnam making molotov cocktails versus religious fanatics that flew planes into the WTC and killed thousands...hmmmm...false equivalency much?

    Parent
    Or not. (5.00 / 1) (#41)
    by jccleaver on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:54:15 PM EST
    false equivalency much?

    Well, both tried to blow up the Pentagon. Do you really think the Weather Underground, if they had the idea of using jetliners, and the ability, would have held back from using airplanes to blow up the nation's military headquarters?? (read: the military-industrial complex)

    Plain-old hijackings were a favorite tactic of the international Left all throughout the 60's and 70's... it's not much of a stretch to take the next step.

    Parent

    Um (5.00 / 0) (#53)
    by connecticut yankee on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:06:29 PM EST
    You mean when Obama was eight?


    Parent
    The WU killed people (5.00 / 2) (#43)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:56:22 PM EST
    so you really don't want to get into the argument that killing more people is worse.  Murder is murder.

    Parent
    Is false equivalency... (none / 0) (#66)
    by Thanin on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:30:23 PM EST
    never a legitimate point when talking about murder?  Because as you said, that can lead down quite a crazy road.

    Parent
    the Weather Underground (none / 0) (#90)
    by Iris on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 08:34:00 PM EST
    were priveleged college students and teenagers who built pipe bombs and molotov cocktails!  How can you even begin to compare that to Al-Qaeda?  Let's forget how "average" people might take this and be honest with ourselves, at least.  It's patently obvious that they are trying to do, and quite frankly it's dangerous.  Haven't you heard of the man who walked into a Unitarian church and started shooting because Michael Savage called liberals "traitors" and terrorists?  If you had any honesty or decency you would denounce this filth.

    Parent
    Oh my (none / 0) (#100)
    by MoveThatBus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:05:34 PM EST
    You are either unaware of the Weatherman crimes and the people who were killed and injured and terrorized by them, or you would have been an easy recruit.

    You have really done a masterful job of over simplifying those people. They were, and could still be, very dangerous. Do some research.


    Parent

    The problem with Keating 5 (5.00 / 1) (#5)
    by votermom on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:36:44 AM EST
    imo, is people have to ask what happened, and as soon as they hear that John Glenn was one of the five, it kind of gets shrugged off. Everyone loves John Glenn.
    Vs. if people ask about Ayers, and as soon as they hear that he was involved in bombing within the US, everyone thinks that's terrible, no matter how long ago that happened.


    Am I the only.... (5.00 / 1) (#8)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:40:21 AM EST
    one who, if forced to choose a side during the late 60's, woulda went with the Weather Underground?

    I mean both entities, the Underground and the Govt., were violent...and that is unjustifiable.  That being said, it is clear which entity was more violent and got more innocent people killed.

    Are you the only one? (none / 0) (#9)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:46:08 AM EST
    Probably.

    Parent
    Um, how old would I be in your hypothetical (none / 0) (#12)
    by votermom on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:50:20 AM EST
    scenario? Because I used to think that being an armed insurgent was all about glory and righteousness, but I think that was when I was around 11.


    Parent
    I'm just glad.... (none / 0) (#15)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:59:25 AM EST
    somebody tried to do something to stop that evil war and evil government...though I can't defend the tactics.

    And I see nothing wrong with a leader of today conversing with someone whose finger was on the pulse when this republic first started going to sh*t, no matter how misguided the approach was to combat it.

    Parent

    You say you can't defend the tactics (5.00 / 2) (#37)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:50:43 PM EST
    so you would not have been a member of Weather Underground.  You would have been in one of more of our other antiwar groups that didn't kill people here to protest us killing people there.

    WU-style tactics killed a student, a young father, at a campus in my state.  He was working late in a campus building that the bombers presumed was empty.  (The bombers were not brilliant students, as the victim was, nor were they working to support families.)

    Such tactics killed the "peace" movement in my state, btw.  Much like the murderous tactics of the "pro-life" movement set it back as well.

    Parent

    Point taken.... (none / 0) (#44)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:57:11 PM EST
    I can see how the tactics of the Underground were counter-productive.

    Still, compared to the acts of the US government at the time, which group committed worse crimes against humanity?  

     

    Parent

    Well (5.00 / 1) (#55)
    by Steve M on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:08:06 PM EST
    the acts of the US government in Vietnam were less evil than the Nazis, so voila, no one should care about that either!

    The point some folks are trying to make here is that the acts of violent anti-war radicals were not only (1) morally indefensible, notwithstanding that they sought to protest an even greater evil, but also (2) completely counterproductive towards accomplishing their stated goal.

    Parent

    Murder is murder. (5.00 / 2) (#56)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:09:00 PM EST
    No matter how many victims can do the dance of unjust death on the head of a pin.

    Parent
    Fair enough... (5.00 / 1) (#61)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:20:50 PM EST
    but then is why is no one concerned about the candidates associations with the living architects of the Vietnam War? of the Iraq war/occupation?

    Obama is the one being held to a double standard here....he can't know Ayers, but McCain can be buddies with countless state-sanctioned murderers?  What's up with that?

    Parent

    If you're thinking of voting for McCain (none / 0) (#71)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:46:28 PM EST
    that matters.  I'm not.  If you're thinking of voting for Obama, it may be that his honesty matters.  

    Parent
    Maybe you're not voting for him (none / 0) (#91)
    by Iris on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 08:37:52 PM EST
    but you are awfully well-versed in propping up his talking points.  Day after day.  And giving any legitimacy to McCain and Palin's smears about Obama "palling around" with "terrorists" is the worst yet.  You have seriously lost perspective.

    Parent
    I'm not trying to attack you here (none / 0) (#92)
    by Iris on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 08:42:07 PM EST
    and I fully agree that murder is murder.  But it's one think to denounce the WU's actions, and another to tar him with slime like this or to make a false equivalency between the WU and Al-Qaeda!  If Obama can be condemned for innocently associating with anyone who did anything wrong in their past, so can McCain for associating with any number of people in the Republican Party.  Personally, I try to be intellectually honest and stick to relevant associations.

    For that matter, if killing people to achieve political ends is murder, and murder is murder, then John McCain's questionable associations with George W. Bush the murderer need to be examined.

    Parent

    counter-productive (none / 0) (#101)
    by MoveThatBus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:08:58 PM EST
    that's all?

    They attacked people in their homes - the target may have been one adult, but they started their homes on fire while the entire family slept inside. One such family was the judge presiding over a trial of violent criminals. What would you call that? It had NOTHING, NOTHING to do with the Vietnam war.

    Counter-productive. Wow.

    Parent

    Were you a media (none / 0) (#20)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:12:57 PM EST
    consumer when the Weather Underground was killing people and damaging the property of others?  And while others were engaged in mostly pacifist protest against the Vietnam War?

    Parent
    I was not yet.... (none / 0) (#29)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:23:24 PM EST
    a glimmer in my mother's eye.

    Don't get me wrong...If I was around back then and somebody asked me to help blow something up I'd tell 'em to get lost, I don't roll that way.
    But I'd be a heckuva lot more sympathetic to the Underground's cause than the Pentagon's.


    Parent

    ha (5.00 / 0) (#21)
    by connecticut yankee on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:14:20 PM EST
    Brokaw is as in the tank as Keith O, only he breaks for the other side and pretends he doesnt. I still remember him scolding Johnathon Alter the night of the 2000 election.

    That John McCain was nailed by the senate ethics committe for "bad judgement" is a matter of record.  Y'know, reality.

    Without knowing the context for Brokaw's statement (5.00 / 1) (#23)
    by ChiTownDenny on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:18:02 PM EST
    I would like to live in a country where journalists practice journalism, not this opinion mongering, Pravda-like MSM.

    BTD, I will vote for Senator Obama no matter what (5.00 / 1) (#68)
    by bslev22 on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:33:19 PM EST
    his relationship with Bill Ayers is.  To me it's all about the Democrat versus the Republican in very pragmatic terms.  I also agree with you that Senator Obama should not be blamed for something Ayers did when Obama was 8 years old.  But, respectfully, I think that it is not illegitimate to question Senator Obama about his decisions, as he aspired to rise in the political world, to rub elbows and benefit from a relationship with someone like Bill Ayers.  Indeed,isn't that what one had to do to rise in Chicago politics?  Isn't that the same reason that Senator Obama stayed with his old church, namely that it was one of the ways he integrated into and became a part of the Chicago community?   I personally don't think Obama should be faulted for his choice of church or political allies (e.g. allowing Ayers to host a political fundraiser for him in the 90s).  But I don't understand why everyone thinks it's so odd that someone with minimal national experience and who is poised to be the president of the  United States would be asked about the associations he chose as he made his meteoric rise to where he is now in just a very few short years.

    At the same time and for similar reasons, I think the Keating scandal is appropriate and I think McCain should be asked about it as well,  These are the kinds of things that allow folks to assess the character and judgment of the folks who would lead this country.  I don't know why Brokaw would think that such a topic is not worth raising.

    Because (5.00 / 0) (#81)
    by cal1942 on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 04:40:10 PM EST
    Brokaw, like so many others in our society have decided that accountability is meaningless.

    That's how Republicans get away with damaging the nation with impunity.

    Inasmuch as Ayers/Obama is concerned I wonder if Obama knew of Ayers' background. When Obama came to Chicago, Ayers was an accepted part of the local establishment.

    If anyone believes Obama should have vetted Ayers, I'd have to ask how many people vett each and every one of their associates. They served on the same board, but neither appointed the other. From what I've read Obama and Ayers were only very marginal associates.

    I doubt that Ayers' past came up in normal conversations, as in ... gee, ya know what Ayers was doing 30 years ago? ...

    Parent

    Huh. (5.00 / 0) (#69)
    by kinglet on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:39:31 PM EST
    Well, that makes the 'Nam what, pre history?

    At least one guy. . . (none / 0) (#1)
    by LarryInNYC on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:26:31 AM EST
    didn't get the "Obama is the new media favorite" memo.

    Who? (5.00 / 1) (#2)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:32:05 AM EST
    Nah, this is me being a Party shill.

    Or to use a Tom Wolfe 60s term, mau mau-ing the flak catchers.

    In the modern parlance, it's called working the refs.

    I doubt Brokaw is going to ask about Ayers tomorrow.

    I do hope he asks about the Great Depression though. It could help him sell some books.

    Parent

    But but but (none / 0) (#32)
    by blogtopus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:34:19 PM EST
    If something that happened in the 1980's is ancient history (and thus to be ignored), what the hell is Brokaw doing selling books about the Depression era generation? Doesn't he know NOBODY cares about what happened more than 20 years ago?

    Parent
    I'll bet Brokaw does reference (none / 0) (#39)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:52:36 PM EST
    Ayers tomorrow.  

    And not for nothin' Ayers' generation is the one that rejected Brokaw's beloved "Greatest" Generation.

    Parent

    No, we did not reject that generation (5.00 / 1) (#72)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:48:59 PM EST
    and many of them, like my parents -- including my father, a WWII veteran, too -- were with us in protesting the Vietnam War.  

    Please avoid simplistic explanations of a complex era.  

    Parent

    I am not the one offering a (none / 0) (#87)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 05:54:14 PM EST
    simplistic explanation - you need to talk to Brokaw about that.

    Parent
    Ayers deeds are not Obama's (none / 0) (#3)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:32:16 AM EST
    deeds, of course.  But, whereas McCain admits bad judgment as to Keating 5, Ayers remains unrepentant; not to mention bombs kill people.  Not logical, but will the McCain/Palin attempts to undermine Obama with his relationship w/Ayers have any effect on the electorate?  

    Ayers is running for President? (5.00 / 0) (#6)
    by Big Tent Democrat on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:37:31 AM EST
    I sure as hell won't for him. At least not until he apologizes.

    Parent
    Isn't the salient issue whether you would allow (none / 0) (#76)
    by bslev22 on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 03:16:36 PM EST
    Mr. Ayers to host a political fundraiser on your behalf?  

    Parent
    Ayers (5.00 / 0) (#82)
    by cal1942 on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 04:43:16 PM EST
    was an accepted part of the establishment when Obama arrived in Chicago.  What reason would he have to question him?

    Parent
    You're right. (none / 0) (#84)
    by bslev22 on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 04:45:56 PM EST
    Anything goes if someone is part of the establishment. I forgot.  

    Parent
    Bombs kill people (5.00 / 0) (#7)
    by Faust on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:38:09 AM EST
    That's why we try to avoid dropping them on innocent children. And yet. We still manage to kill a fair number of them. Long live warmonger McCain and the military industrial complex.

    Parent
    Yeah.... (none / 0) (#19)
    by kdog on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:12:49 PM EST
    Is the GOP sure they wanna start this one?

    Who blew up more innocent people...Ayers or McCain?  

    Oh yeah...Vietnamese don't matter.

    Parent

    If only people were actually consistent on this (none / 0) (#28)
    by Faust on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:22:36 PM EST
    Even "liberals" often get confused when it comes to the us vs them. I don't really blame the politicians. They have to play to the zero-institution of the nation state. But for my own part, I do not spend a lot of time decrying terrorists as a special form of evil when collatoral damage is in my view simply justified terrorism cloaked and legitimized by "warfare conducted by states" as opposed to individuals pursing personal ideological agendas.

    A deeply unpopular view but I can't blame people. Who wants to think about all the dead kids our tax dollars have murdered.

    Parent

    Does this mean that Ayers can't (5.00 / 2) (#10)
    by litigatormom on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:47:15 AM EST
    raise money for candidates -- back in the last decade -- or engage in political life?  Charles Keating was McCain's primary political sponsor, McCain vacationed with Keating, and most important of all, helped keep S&L regulators at bay so that Keating could continue to profit from the banks as it became insolvent.

    Something that's relevant for voters to know when trying to balance McCain sudden "Wall Street reformer" mantra with his post-Keating 5 insistence that he favored further de-regulation of the markets. Indeed, he's even now pushing de-regulation of the health care market even has he tries to force people out of employer plans and into that market.  


    Parent

    Excellent (none / 0) (#83)
    by cal1942 on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 04:45:41 PM EST
    comment litagatormom.

    Parent
    well (5.00 / 0) (#63)
    by connecticut yankee on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:24:01 PM EST
    Obama denounced Ayer's acts so unless Ayers is running for something you'll need new talking points.

    Parent
    Mark Levin sums it up (2.00 / 0) (#38)
    by jccleaver on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:51:19 PM EST
    The issue is both: a) the double-standard, and b) the fact that, although Ayers actions were 40 years ago, his comments re-affirming his actions were 7 years ago, and Obama's "coming out party" politically was at Ayers' house 10 years ago. They co-chaired a foundation around that time and worked together doling out over $100M in funding.

    That's not the "detached relationship" that Obama (and the media sycophants) are describing. And  it's a lot closer than the Keating event 20 years ago that's already been "internalized" by the public.

    As Mark Levin writes:

    As someone who has written critically of John McCain on a host of issues, including the Keating Five, none of it compares to the life that Barack Obama has led and his belief system. Obama is not merely associated with domestic terrorists, Palestinian radicals, Marxists, and black liberation ideologues -- he was their favorite candidate. They groomed him. They befriended him. He befriended them. He socialized with them. In other words, these people saw Obama as representing their views and aspirations and he saw them the same way. I am not among those who raise Obama's associations but add "of course, it doesn't mean Obama shares their views." Oh really? These miscreants include Obama's former pastor, political mentors and allies, and friends. Obama attempts to downplay and distance himself from his own circle of allies now that he is running for president. But he is one of them. Obama is getting a pass that no other candidate in my memory has ever received.

    If John McCain had belonged to a church for 20 years and that church advocated white supremacy and the  pastor of the church spewed racist propaganda wrapped in Biblical verses -- much of which was caught on video-tape -- what would we say? If McCain's good friends included people involved in blowing up abortion clinics instead of the Capitol Building, the Pentagon, and police stations, what would we say? If McCain was socially close to a professor with ties to neo-Nazi groups in Berlin, as opposed to a professor who had ties to the PLO, what would we say? If McCain spent his formative years schooled in fascism as opposed to Marxism, what would we say?

    Every time Obama's life experiences and character are raised, the response is a diversionary tactic. Today, we're supposed to be impressed with the moral equivalency argument (Ayers = Keating Five), or Obama's associations and friendships aren't what they appear to be, or Obama really isn't like all those people he drew around him, or those raising these issues are guilty of McCarthyism.  There are 30 days left in this election. It's high time the Obama fan-dance ended.



    Parent
    This is key to understanding (5.00 / 1) (#42)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:55:15 PM EST
    the difference, and Brokaw's statement.  Thanks.

    Parent
    na (5.00 / 2) (#62)
    by connecticut yankee on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:22:22 PM EST
    No, thats just propaganda.  That you agree with it says less about Obama and more about your purpose on this board.

    Parent
    I'm not a cheerleader. (3.00 / 2) (#73)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:50:21 PM EST
    I'm a serious voter seeking information.  There still is some of that here.

    Parent
    Well a serious voter (none / 0) (#75)
    by badguppy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 03:12:34 PM EST
    wouldn't take Mark frickin' Levin seriously...

    Parent
    You won't find reliable information (none / 0) (#93)
    by Iris on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 08:49:27 PM EST
    at the National Review, just selective information and propaganda.  I thought this was supposed to be one of Hillary supporters' criticisms of Obama supporters, that they relied too much on right-wing smears?  Oh, how the wheel has turned...

    Parent
    I am confident (5.00 / 1) (#51)
    by Steve M on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:04:17 PM EST
    that Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity also believe that Ayers is incredibly relevant to the Obama campaign.

    Parent
    you are quoting Mark Levin??? (5.00 / 1) (#74)
    by wasabi on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:57:42 PM EST
    Now there is one unbiased person!

    Mark Levin, the president of the Legal Landmark Foundation which advocates our tax dollars go to send children to religious schools?  That continually files lawsuits againgst labor unions?  That has Rush Limbaugh on it's advisory board (and nominated him for the Nobel Prize)?  Whose foundation is paid for by donations from the likes of the Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation, the John M. Olin Foundation, and the Scaife Family Foundation?

    That's who you are quoting?  That Mark Levin???

    Parent

    Help me out here (none / 0) (#11)
    by rdandrea on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:49:56 AM EST
    What has Ayers actually been convicted of?

    Parent
    Nothing. (none / 0) (#13)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:52:00 AM EST
    If that's the case, then he should consider (none / 0) (#16)
    by scribe on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:02:45 PM EST
    suing Palin for slander, given that she's called him a "terrorist".

    As I recall it, there was no crime called "terrorism" back in the 1960s when he was supposed to have done all the terrible things that, to Palin, make him a "domestic terrorist".

    And, last time I checked, calling someone a criminal when they are not is defamation (libel or slander) per se, i.e., an open and shut case.

    Palin doesn't need all that she owns.  She can pay a judgment.

    Parent

    Ayers has a published memoir (5.00 / 1) (#18)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:10:35 PM EST
    and has been interviewed repeatedly.  He admitted making explosive devices, although he didn't admit a proper chain of custody to explosions which killed people or damaged property of others.  He did say he did not regret his actions.  

    If I were Obama, I would not have associated with Ayers if my goal was to be President of the U.S.  But, hey, Obama's ahead in the polls.  He's a good politician.

    Parent

    well (5.00 / 1) (#25)
    by connecticut yankee on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:18:49 PM EST
    The Obama connection here is pretty tenuous and he denounced this mans actions.

    If McCain wanted to be president he shouldnt have been best friends with Keating.  Having the senate scold you for "bad judgement" isnt usually a vote getter.  Accepting free trips and vacations isnt usually a great idea either.

    Parent

    Obama began his (5.00 / 2) (#30)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:26:33 PM EST
    career in politics with the support of a couple whose mistakes were known to him at the time.  McCain began his political career with the support of Keating, who apparently made his prosecutable mistakes later.  

    Parent
    Um - as I understand it Obama's (5.00 / 1) (#52)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:04:46 PM EST
    "relationship" with Ayers had something to do with improving education.  Obama really had no ability to make Ayers go away and any politician in this day and age that doesn't show some interest in education is pretty much missing a big plank in a typical politican platform.

    Parent
    Ah, about Ayers improving education (none / 0) (#59)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:14:24 PM EST
    you really don't want to go there, either.  Obama served on the board whose funding saved the school voucher program in my city, one of Ayers' experiments with kids here as guinea pigs.

    The voucher program has saved religious schools in my city, many of them that were going to close building multimillion-dollar additions -- but it has destroyed the public school system here, which recently voted to dissolve the school district -- in the 22nd-largest city in the country.  And it has destroyed many other services in my city, where we property taxpayers are saddled with supporting two school systems, public schools and private schools.

    And Obama said to the media here, in the primary, that he is open to vouchers elsewhere.  Beware.

    Parent

    Look - I am not a supporters of (none / 0) (#89)
    by inclusiveheart on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 07:45:59 PM EST
    school vouchers, but I think you and I could agree on one thing - vouchers are not the kind of terrorism that Palin is attempting to taint Obama with in this case.

    Parent
    s I understand it, Ayers and Dorhn (none / 0) (#70)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:42:34 PM EST
    hosted a fundraiser in their home for Obama when Alice Palmer tapped him to succeed her in the state Senate.  

    Parent
    If I was Sarah Palin and Todd Palin (5.00 / 1) (#35)
    by Iris on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:39:03 PM EST
    I wouldn't have associated with the Alaskan Independence Party, either.  Funny how everyone stopped talking about that.  But I think we have MUCH more important things to talk about than the irrelevant associations of candidates, right?

    Parent
    Todd Palin was AIP (5.00 / 1) (#50)
    by votermom on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:03:49 PM EST
    and Sarah Palin has always been GOP. That's been pretty much fact-checked 6 ways til Sunday.

    Parent
    ya (5.00 / 1) (#60)
    by connecticut yankee on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:17:57 PM EST
    Yeah, it was Todd Palin who joined the group whose founder hated the US and was killed in 1992 trying to buy plastic explosives.

    Sarah Palin has given speeches to the group and praised them but she didnt join.

    Parent

    Then what about this? (none / 0) (#94)
    by Iris on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 08:53:34 PM EST
    Sarah Palin:
    I'm Sarah Palin, and I'd like to welcome you to the 2008 Alaskan Independence Party Convention.


    Parent
    Only Todd Palin (none / 0) (#49)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:03:01 PM EST
    was a member, not Sarah Palin.  Stick to truths, which ought to be enough to win.  If not, you lose more than an election is worth.

    Parent
    I dunno... (5.00 / 1) (#64)
    by Thanin on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:25:12 PM EST
    the video sarah palin made for AIP makes me think her being a gop is like saying joe lieberman is a Dem.

    Parent
    Alaska's politics (5.00 / 1) (#77)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 03:26:14 PM EST
    are so different.  And I'm not to criticize those who were treated so cavalierly as colonies by a country that claimed to begin in revolt against being a colony.  Ditto re the Hawaiian rebel movement -- we stole those islands, plain and simple, as even our Congress has had to admit and apologize for.  And don't get me started on the third of the country of Mexico that we stole.

    Many of us have different state histories from theirs.  I'm typing on lands taken by the Brits from the First People and then won by this country in war -- when this country then stole their lands again in treaties and war.  If I was part Native American like Todd Palin, I'd have issues, too.

    Parent

    True... (5.00 / 0) (#86)
    by Thanin on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 05:05:57 PM EST
    every state has its own story, but the answer isn't to succeed from the union.  So while I can obviously understand the justified anger to abhorrent actions in U.S. history (something Ive done in my past), thrashing around blinded by that anger only hampers your position; no one can go back in time and change things, so lets change what we can and insure it never happens again.  Giving up and running away from the country wont help.

    But anyway, I think the initial charge against sarah palin does have merit, if one concludes ayers is relevant.


    Parent

    I'm part Scot, should we secede? (5.00 / 1) (#99)
    by mrmobi on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 10:10:58 PM EST
    If I was part Native American like Todd Palin, I'd have issues, too.

    Wow, CC, that is one pathetically weak argument.

    Let me see if I get this straight. You think Obama should have walked out of his church 20 years ago because his pastor at some point said "God Damn America" during a sermon. You think his very oblique association with Bill Ayers somehow taints him as a "terrorist."

    But the "First Dude" of Alaska belongs to a group which wants to secede from the union and doesn't give a damn about our government, that that's excusable because he's part Native American, and has issues.

    And Sarah Palin (who I will herewith refer to only as Bible Spice, thank you, John Cole) well, she has her own problems.

    From Joe Klein:

    So then, I'd guess, it would be appropriate to bring up some of the nuttiness that passes for godliness in Palin's religious life. Leave aside the fact that The Embarracuda allowed herself to participate in a cermony that protected her from witchcraft, how about her presence--she didn't "get up and leave"-- at a sermon by the founder of Jews for Jesus, who argued that the Palestinian terrorist acts against Israel were God's "judgment" on the Jews because they hadn't accepted Jesus.

    CC, I see your defenses of the indefensible here a lot, most of it seems to grow from your obvious continuing belief that Hillary Clinton was robbed, but a lot of it reminds me of a certain politician who is in the process of destroying his political career in the name of "bi-partisanship." I'm speaking of the execrable Holy Joe Lieberman.

    Yeah, that's it, CC, you're Liebermanesque.

     

    Parent

    Double standard (none / 0) (#95)
    by Iris on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 08:56:34 PM EST
    for you to defend the Alaskan Independence Party and Sarah Palin, while justifying the "terrorist" lies about Obama, is beyond belief.  The fact is that Sarah AND her husband have ties to the AIP, and if you're going to ask the "questions" about Obama that you have, you can't let her off the hook so easily.  She's MARRIED to Todd Palin, after all.  What association is stronger than that?

    Parent
    AIP - GOP (none / 0) (#85)
    by cal1942 on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 04:55:20 PM EST
    In some ways:

    mox nix

    Parent

    ZOMG, the GOP would love it (none / 0) (#26)
    by votermom on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:20:41 PM EST
    if Ayers sued -- talk about an excuse to get everything out in public.
    Right now the Obama campaign is hoping Ayers just lays low, barring that Obama is going to have to do another under-the-bus speech.

    Parent
    well (5.00 / 0) (#27)
    by connecticut yankee on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:22:03 PM EST
    He denounced Ayer's actions long ago.

    This only has legs to Palin-billies, who vote McCain anyway.

    Gallup today, Obama up another point. Leads by 8.

    Parent

    What the heck are (none / 0) (#31)
    by votermom on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:27:08 PM EST
    Palin-billies?
    Is that meant to evoke hillbilly?
    Don't you know we all own Wall Street now? There are no more hicks -- all Americans are now part of the elite to the tune of one trillion tax dollars.

    Parent
    Ayers got off on a technicality (none / 0) (#40)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:53:50 PM EST
    and correctly so in terms of the law.  But he has admitted to his actions that were, at least to my mind, immoral -- in the same way that I deem immoral the "pro-lifers" who murder doctors.

    Parent
    CC, we are clearly (5.00 / 1) (#45)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:58:08 PM EST
    in the minority here.  

    Parent
    Really, when progressives find (5.00 / 1) (#57)
    by votermom on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:09:00 PM EST
    themselves defending people who bomb civilians, or even just people who taze 10 year olds, it gets really weird for me. I just can't sign on to that.

    Parent
    ditto (5.00 / 2) (#58)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:09:54 PM EST
    I agree that the Weather Underground (none / 0) (#96)
    by Iris on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:00:16 PM EST
    kids were wrong for what they did, and they were getting dangerous in their time, at least until that pipe bomb exploded on the group that was making it and the feds started cracking down.

    But what does that have to do with today?  You're doing a disservice to the important issues that face our country.  People are counting on us to look to the future, not the Vietnam war and anti-war radicalism.

    Parent

    Yep, those who were not there (none / 0) (#47)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:01:16 PM EST
    cannot know the horror of it.  It hit home here, where a student working late died in a bombing in my state -- and where Ayers' wife Dohrn grew up.

    After years of marching and meeting and getting tear-gassed in what I thought was a noble cause, I stopped protesting the war when the murders started.  We had lost our moral compass.

    And I am so sorry to see that the Dems have lost theirs this year as well in emulating the enemy, too.

    Parent

    I had forgotten about the (none / 0) (#48)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:02:48 PM EST
    murder of the grad student at WU.  Terrible.  Absolutely no justification.

    Parent
    Actually, the UW (5.00 / 2) (#54)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:06:34 PM EST
    but for all I know, there was a murder at WU, too.

    Let's take a moment to think about Robert Fassnacht -- a name forever etched in my mind -- and his wife and children, who are grown now after a life without their father in the name of "peace."  

    Parent

    Amen. (none / 0) (#79)
    by bslev22 on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 04:05:22 PM EST
    From a fomer Badger.  UW Law '86.

    Parent
    You're accusing us of losing our moral compass? (none / 0) (#97)
    by Iris on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:03:18 PM EST
    While you defend these baseless smears against Barack Obama?

    Those days are long gone, and the pendulum has swung the other way.  That's where we are now.  Anyone who defends that kind of violence is wrong.  But it's also wrong to try to hang these events (when Obama was a child) around the Democratic party's neck when no one in the mainstream ever supported that kind of thing, then or now.  Barack Obama also denounces their actions.  

    Parent

    google is your imaginary friend (none / 0) (#14)
    by votermom on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 11:57:27 AM EST
    http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/902213,CST-NWS-ayers18.article
    I find this ironic, considering the demise of FISA:

    Federal charges against the two were dropped because of improper surveillance, so they avoided prison.



    Parent
    Thanks votermom (none / 0) (#17)
    by rdandrea on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:09:06 PM EST
    I actually knew that.  It was a rhetorical question.

    Parent
    Sorry about that. <eom> (none / 0) (#24)
    by votermom on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:18:22 PM EST
    Back to the NYT article about (none / 0) (#22)
    by oculus on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:14:41 PM EST
    McCain's entry into politics, support by Keating from the start, and NYT's benign coverage of McCain's involvement in Keating 5.  McCain is surely not the "darling" of the NYT.  What to make of this?

    The contrast needs to be made. (5.00 / 1) (#33)
    by Christy1947 on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:37:44 PM EST
    Nobody has ever said O did anything for Ayers. All of the bad stuff was before he was out of short pants. As to McCain, he used his Senate position to help Keating, repeatedly. That alone is a material difference.

    And, as I sit here at 1:30 PM, the Dow is down another 500. I wonder whether what's going on here is that the repubs have decided they really don't want to be responsible for what will have to be done in the next four years.

    Parent

    It's more what Ayers did for Obama (1.00 / 1) (#46)
    by Cream City on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:58:09 PM EST
    in building his resume and connections -- and  income.  (Those were paying boards.)

    Parent
    If you think that, tell me two things (5.00 / 1) (#88)
    by Christy1947 on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 06:17:33 PM EST
    1. Tell me whether you think that every pol should vet everyone in every organization they belong to back forty years, and only talk to or work with organizations or people who are absolutely clean that far back from anything that might be controversial. EVERYONE in politics has something that can be spun badly, including someone who was a radical in the 60's but at the time O encountered him had been twenty years a respected child education specialist. Who lived in the same general urban neighborhood - does a politician have to move more than a mile away form every questionable person? Who hosted a party for Alice Palmer that Alice Palmer invited him to. Do you vet all invitations you receive? Please get real here.

    2. If you think that vague acquaintance is enough to tar obama, will you take the same position with Palin, who may not have been a member of the secessionist Alaska Independence party, but has them in her Alaska political coalition and who praised them loudly in a recorded speech at that convention in 2008, or McCain whose 'friend' Keating he used his Senate position affirmatively to defend. To tar O, you absolutely must if consistent tar Palin and McCain, too.


    Parent
    thanks Christy, it needed to be said, n/t (none / 0) (#98)
    by Iris on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 09:04:38 PM EST
    How do you know so much (none / 0) (#78)
    by badguppy on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 03:27:14 PM EST
    about Ayers and Obama? I mean is this important enough to you to affect your vote? I've been ignoring it because I heard Sean Hannity get so worked up over it I thought it must be b.s.

    Parent
    In context (none / 0) (#34)
    by AF on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 12:39:01 PM EST
    Brokaw was talking about both Ayers and Keating:

    MR. YEPSEN: This is where the primary has been useful to Barack Obama. We've heard about William Ayers. We heard about it from the Clinton people, and we heard about it as part of the rough and tumble there. So it's kind of an old story to a lot of people. And two can play this game. And this is where I agree with Peggy. This could go on a real bad turn here because we may be starting to hear about Charles Keating. I mean, if we want to talk about...
    MS. NOONAN: Oh, of course we are. Of course.

    MR. YEPSEN: ...Barack Obama's negatives, John McCain has some, too. We can start hearing about those. He's...

    MR. BROKAW: John--we have to keep explaining to everyone--that Charles Keating was the Arizona developer with whom John McCain had an, a, a strong relationship, and then he got in a lot of trouble. He was prosecuted by the Feds, and John McCain said, "I made a terrible mistake here." Yeah.

    MR. YEPSEN: And it's all ancient history, Tom.

    MR. BROKAW: Yeah.



    I dont think they investigated (none / 0) (#102)
    by Amiss on Tue Oct 07, 2008 at 02:11:27 AM EST
    all that they should have with the Keating 5, personally.
    In a conference call with reporters, attorney John Dowd was asked about a specific part of the Keating Five inquiry, the fact that Cindy McCain and her father had invested in a Keating strip mall.

    "It was part of the inquiry, but it did not -- John was unconnected to that and unaware of it at the time, and did not participate in it," Dowd said.


    Link to the full story is here.

    "Sometime in 1986, I was told by Mr. Delgado, who was Executive Vice President of my father-in-law's company, that they were going to invest in a shopping center and that the investment -- the project -- was being put together by a subsidiary of American Continental," McCain said. "He later told me that they -- that that had happened. And I had no interest in it and just noted in passing that this investment took place."

    The attorney asking the question during the hearing? John Dowd.



    Parent
    Brokaw declares . . . (none / 0) (#65)
    by Doc Rock on Mon Oct 06, 2008 at 01:26:46 PM EST
    . . . leopards have no spots.  How'd he get a slot as a debate moderator?  Perhaps, he should be helping his candidate prepare for a fair debate?