The serial exaggerator strikes again
At this point, it appears Rudy Giuliani is just daring the national media. Following up on yesterday’s item, the candidate who can barely go a day without making a wildly misleading exaggeration, has unveiled a new radio ad with a truly audacious whopper, even by Giuliani’s low standards.
OK, Rudy Giuliani has just released an ad claiming that the survival rate from prostate cancer is much higher in America than in Britain, thus proving the failure of socialized medicine.
The problem is that his claim is just plain false. In fact, mortality rates from prostate cancer are almost the same in America and Britain.
So, will this get as much attention as, say, the Edwards haircut or the Hillary laugh? Will it get any coverage at all? Bear in mind that health care is the central domestic issue of this election — and Rudy has just showed that he doesn’t know a thing about it.
It’s really not that complicated. Giuliani, in his campaign spot, claims that the survival rate for prostate cancer patients in the U.S. is 82%, while in England, it’s 44%. Giuliani argues that a universal-coverage system necessarily leads to worse care and more deaths.
But Giuliani doesn’t know what he’s talking about, and his claims were easily debunked.
Keep in mind, this wasn’t just an off-hand comment Giuliani made on the stump. This was a carefully crafted pitch, and put on the air. Giuliani didn’t just flub the facts in response to a voter’s question; he’s intentionally trying to deceive the public with a misleading ad.
And how has the media responded to the leading Republican candidate getting caught lying in a campaign ad? So far, by largely ignoring it.
Reader R.K. alerted me to a discussion on yesterday’s Hardball, where MSNBC’s Chris Matthews showed the ad in its entirety. Matthews and his guests then scrutinized the ad for quite a while. How many mentioned that the ad’s central claim was demonstrably false? None.
Matthews got the discussion started by saying, “Boy, that is classic Live Free or Die, self reliance, the Granite State. Perry, this is like main lining right into that psychology of New Hampshire, which is leave me alone. I don’t trust socialism. Is it going to work in these days, when people are really challenged on health care?”
Perry Bacon discussed the ad in the context of other candidates’ healthcare pitches. Jill Zuckman talked about the ad in the context of taking on Hillary Clinton. Matthews repeatedly asked whether the ad would “work,” by which he meant, win support from voters.
It didn’t occur to any of them to even question Giuliani’s central claim, better yet point out that it’s completely wrong.
As for digging into the policy details a little more, Ezra did a handful of good posts on the subject yesterday, but included a gem last night when he noted the circumstances of Giuliani’s life-saving cancer treatment.
…Giuliani’s case for the superiority of our “free market” health care system goes something like this: While on health insurance provided by New York state, he was treated, using a surgery developed by Europeans, for prostate cancer, a disease that most commonly afflicts those covered by the federal government’s single-payer health care system. Take that, Europe/national health insurance.
Yep, Giuliani is that clueless.
In an effective political system, this would be a fairly big deal. A leading candidate produces an ad (one of a small number created by the campaign) with an obvious falsehood. If reporters cared half as much about this as haircuts, cackles, and cleavage, the process might actually function.
let’s call ’em what they are: not “exagerations,” but flat-out lies.
btw, his next claim will be that his prostate cancer was caused by 9/11!
If reporters cared half as much about this as haircuts, cackles, and cleavage, the process might actually function.
Agreed. Looking forward to the rigorous scrutiny of Hillary’s Senate record and Rudolf’s “scoop-and-dump” operation that literally trashed the remains of 9/11 victims at the World Trade Center site.
oh, JKap…
you are an optimist!
Ahh, but there is no titilation in substantive falsehoods and other fallacies. What is a faux journalist to do? -Kevo
mellowjohn, you’re wrong. Socialized medicine caused 9/11, and prevented us from finding remains, so we had to send them to the dump.
” Giuliani, in his campaign spot, claims that the survival rate for prostate cancer patients in the U.S. is 82%, while in England, it’s 44%. “
I believe what Giuliani said was 100% accurate.
“But Giuliani doesn’t know what he’s talking about, and his claims were easily debunked.”
I believe what Giuliani said was 100% accurate.
Question #1 Is the survival rate for prostate cancer in the US 82%?
Answer: Yes, it is.
Question #2 Is the survival rate for prostate cancer in the UK (or is it England) 44%?
Answer: Yes it is.
So, it seems to me that CB is making a big mistake with his comments.
The point that needs to be stressed is that the survival rate for prostate cancer is virtually identical. These facts support, but does not prove, the conclusion that the US spends far too much money finding prostate cancer for little benefit in mortality.
However, does anyone have the stats on how much better or worse the quality of life is after prostate cancer is found or how much longer or shorter the person’s life is after the cancer is found?
I think it is critical to show that England has health care that is almost as good or better than the US while spending so much less than we do.
Therefore, attacking someone for presenting facts in a somewhat misleading way is counterproductive.
What none of these bobble-headed, bubble-brained media-types seem to have any interest in is educating the American people about the differences between “national” health care – where the providers under a national system are actually employees of the government – and a single-payer system – the best example of which is Medicare.
If the Democrats really wanted to make some headway, they would produce a series of educational public service ads featuring respected and non-partisan experts explaining what these things are –and are not. Not ads touting their own plans, and not ads taking shots at anyone else’s plans – but ads educating the public. There’s no reason to fear debate about the future of health care, but it would be helpful if all of us could have the information necessary to make that debate legitimate. And it’s clear we aren’t going to get that from the media.
England and America have vritually the same mortality rates from prostate cancer. In England (as of 1997), 28 males of every 100,000 died from prostate cancer. In America, then number was 26. The difference comes in “incidence” — there are many more diagnoses of prostate cancer in America, as we have an aggressive screening process…
Wonder why America has such a better screening process?
When I saw the headline, I thought you were referring to this, but that’s from the next news cycle. Which just proves your point that Giuiliani is a serial exaggerator (and one who is deliberately conflating Ahmadinejad and bin Laden to boot).
Reagan set the tone in ’81 with his, “Trees cause more pollution than automobiles do.” Bush’s exaggerations got us into a war with a nation that hadn’t attacked us.
For Republicans, exaggerating isn’t a bug, it’s a feature.
neil wilson-do a simple google search for prostate cancer survival rates in england, you’ll find the 44% number is not correct. or drop in to war room on salon – tim grieve has already done that work for you.
According to The Lancet, Volume 355, Issue 9217, 20 May 2000, Pages 1788-1789, “Although trends in prostate-cancer screening and disease incidence differ substantially between the USA and England and Wales, trends in mortality are very similar.”
Rudy is probably not even aware that he’s lying, probably doesn’t even care. Americans rarely challenge “facts”. The only question is whether Rudy can get away with it.
My only question (I long ago gave up on our so-called journalists, who seem only dazzled by celebs and their ills) is why none of the other candidates, Repugnicant or Dumbocrat, haven’t pointed this out. Maybe they’re all afraid to break Omerta or something.
Ed Stephan in #12 said “…trends in mortality are very similar.”
I don’t think I took him out of context.
If he is correct then the nation that finds the most cases of cancer has the higher survival rate.
My point is that both sides twist the facts to fit their arguments.
When the republicans say something stupid then people who care about the truth should point out how they twisted the facts.
However, twisting facts is not the same thing as telling a lie.
Am I wrong?
“However, twisting facts is not the same thing as telling a lie.”
what? a little fast and loose with your ethics, aren’t you?
***then the nation that finds the most cases of cancer has the higher survival rate.***
So what you’re suggesting is that because more Americans with prostrate cancer survive, America has the higher survival rate?
If more Americans GET prostrate cancer than do Britons, then America would demonstrate a higher incidence rate. And if more Americans die from it than Britons, America also gets credit for a higher mortality rate.
In addition, Britain is able, via its healthcare system, to provide screening to every citizen. If America has the better system, then how many people without healthcare are screened for prostate cancer? How many survived, and how many died?
It’s the same as the old “if a tree fell in the forest and no one was there to hear it” argument.
Here’s a novel concept. take the number of deaths in one year among those without healthcare, and apply the same criteria. But—there’s just one little, teensy-weensy difference. No healthcare means “zero diagnosis.” If there isn’t a diagnosis, then there is no treatment regimen. And if there’s no treatment regimen, the the mortality rate shoots to—drumroll, if you please—100%.
Now, do the math. Find the percentage of Americans who are diagnosed with prostate cancer. We’ll call this “Variable A” (vA for short). Apply that percentage to the quantity of Americans currently without access to healthcare that affords them the opportunity to get a diagnosis—roughly 12% of the population, if current numbers are correct. Then calculate a 100% mortality rate for this segment of the population. Instead of “vA x 0.12 x 0000.26,” you get a simple “vA x 0.12.”
Ghouliani’s “100% correct” just took a “flying falluchi” off the ghost of WTC Tower One….
I see JRS Jr (#8) has his head well up his lower intestine, where he usually keeps it when he’s talking about things he knows nothing about (which is pretty much everything).
Allow me to tell you how at least one of the 44 million Americans without health insurance discovered he possibly had prostate cancer. 16 months ago I was in a car accident. When I was taken to the ER, one of the tests I got was a urinalysis; as I was leaving, thinking all was well other than my chest had just barely not been crushed and hurt like hell with each breath, the doctor took me aside and told me they found white cells in my urine. That’s not a good sign. Particularly not when you don’t have insurance.
After a month of wondering if I should just go die, I was able to get an appointment at the Free Clinic, and that resulted in a test at Cedars-Sinai, where it was discovered I had a PSA of 7 – not awful, but worrisome. The Free Clinic doctor noted I had military service, and told me how to “crash” the VA system by telling them I had a diagnosis of cancer.
Finally I was into the VA system – which is very close to what one gets in Britain’s National Health Insurance. There a series of tests over the next six months confirmed I should be investtigated further, and then finally the biopsy (an even one does not want to go through twice, believe me!) came through negative. Negative but “watch the skies,” I’m not out of the woods, though I am out of the hole for now.
Yeah, JRS Jr., that sure was a great health plan to discover I had the possibility of prostate, wasn’t it?
For those who wonder about these things, if you are a male over 45, you should have an annual prostate exam the way a woman has a breast cancer checkup. Prostate cancer is the second most-easily treated cancer there is, after skin cancer, if you get an early warning.
Of course, with George Bush about to announce that he’s appointing the hack he had as Surgeon General as head of the Veteran’s Administration, it looks like he’s focused his laser-like gaze on fucking up another government program that works. Goddamned sonofabitch – can’t he go ride his damn bicycle off a cliff in a drunken blackout and finally give service to his country???
The national discourse on health care is so confused that we don’t even distinguish between health care and health insurance, which are obviously two completely different things. And every discussion that mentions universal health insurance is conflated with socialized medicine, which makes even less sense. What’s more, universal health insurance can be achieved in the private sector. It doesn’t necessarily involve a single payer government administered system.
The Republicans confuse the issue deliberately. The Democrats fail to correct them, I suspect out of ignorance half the time. I’ve seen cable tv talk shows where the term “socialized medicine” was thrown around by Republicans as a scare tactic, and simply not challenged by democrats.
Look, we have mandatory automobile insurance. Does anybody confuse that with a nationalized automobile industry? I don’t hear anyone saying we can’t make automobile liability insurance mandatory because we don’t want the government manufacturing our SUVs. That would be a ridiculous conclusion. Yet we do the same thing with health insurance and nobody blinks.
What makes it all the more ridiculous is that Republicans would benefit from universal health insurance. That would bring 50 million new customers into the private insurance system if we went that route, and that’s what they care about – revenues and profits.
It’s just like the tremendous opportunities that would open up in the energy industry if we tackled global warming. The Republicans are just so dead set against change, so entrenched in their myopic ideologies that they can’t see that they could benefit too.
“I see JRS Jr (#8) has his head well up his lower intestine…”
perhaps he’s checking his prostate.
Hark (#17), very well said. It ought to settle that issue once an for all. Ought to.
Just found this interesting site that actually compares US vs. Canadian prostate cancer incidence rates and mortality levels…and even adjusts them for race (given that the US would have a greater number of blacks…who are chronically underinsured and increases the US rates).
Surprise, surprise…Canada has both lower rates of incidence and significantly lower mortality rates for those that do contract prostate cancer. Lots of nifty charts.
Last I heard the Canadians had “soci*lised medicine” according to most of the Rightwings definitions of the service.
http://www.publichealthreports.org/userfiles/119_2/119174.pdf
A couple of things that worries me about Giuliani’s suggestion is what happens to those that have less than $15,000 in taxes? Do they only get the amount of insurance allowed by the maximum the can tap out. If I pay $8000 in taxes annually…is my tax break only gonna be $8000? And that restricts me to $8000 plans unless I pay the extra out-of-pocket? And someone wealthier gets $15,000 worth of insurance, no taxes, and no out of pocket for that amount of insurance.
Seems like this is a big gift for those that are wealthier. For the same $15,000 in coverage, the $8000 taxpayer has to foot an additional $7000. The wealthier taxpayer has 100% of it covered in his tax refund. Nice! And what about those poor who pay no taxes…what does Giulianis “no socialised medicine” say to them?
Also, without some form of government supervision wouldn’t insurance plans have much greater “negotiating” power over private purchasers? One big issue is getting insurance companies to actually pay up on claims, and to not drop individuals that have chronic health issues. The fact that companies or the government steps in for their employees when insurance companies and HMO’s are shirking their responsibilities is a powerful negotiating tool preventing abuse. Giuliani’s plan would make us all “individuals”and isolated from the power that large collective power that keeps plan costs low and competitive. insurance providers want these large employee pools and are willing to offer far more reasonable plans as a result.
The bottom line is that the British live longer than we do in America. And the average Briton was found to be in much better health than the best insured Americans. Sad… And British children are not dieing, and going extinct. Like all of the American children are. What do you have to say to that. Wise Guys.
For the first time in the history of America. The life expectancy of today’s children is less than that of their parents. This is catastrophic. And our infant mortality is equal to that of a third world country. Current U.S. adult life expectancy is down from #1 to #42. And dropping fast. These facts are what is known as EXTINCTION! indicators. These are the early signs of the final phase of the EXTINCTION of the American people.
You have to take the profit motive out of health care delivery. The profit motive does not work with health care. Or any other essential public service like police, and fire. The sooner everyone faces this truth. The sooner you will be able to adopt a real solution to the problem. The days of paying for health care out of pocket are at an end. Just like the mob days of paying for protection out of pocket came to an end.
HR 676 is the way to go. Single payer Universal National Health Care For All. Medicare for all. Accept no substitutes. The sooner you face this. The sooner you begin to heal the Cancer of private for profit medicine that is destroying this entire society. Other developed countries realized this years ago. It’s a no-brainer now. See sickocure.org
Money, greed, and the profit motive has just decimated health care in America. And killed, and injured millions needlessly. Just for profit. But that is what large amounts of money, greed, and a lust for power always does. No one is immune from this corrupting power. The smart ones know this. And avoid letting them-self be put in compromising positions. But that is easier said. Than done. And very few succeed.
Most in the US go into medicine primarily to become wealthy. That is who the medical schools mostly choose. Most of the medical schools faculty are in bed with the drug companies, and others. And like the story of Dr. Faustus. They end up selling their soles. One compromise at a time. Until Lucifer owns them.
In medicine. Compromised care means. Injury, disability, and death. It’s sad really. But HR 676 can fix this disgrace. Like it has in other developed countries. The only question is. How many more millions will be hurt, injured, and killed. And how many more of your children will die before their time. Before we fix this disgrace of private for profit health care in America.
I realize there will be a few people that have what they believe is good health care coverage. Who will want to opt out of a single payer system like HR 676. But let me remind you we rank # 37 in quality of health care for all. Down from #1. Never the less. A few opting out is not a problem. As long as all other Americans are automatically covered at birth through life. Unless they choose to opt out of HR 676. The government takes out 1.4% from your paycheck now for Medicare. All they have to do is substitute for HR 676 what they now take out of your paychecks for private health insurance. Remember, we already spend more on health care than any other country in the world. Right Now. We are being ripped off. And raped.
The SCHIP program is a desperately needed program for Americas children. But with the impending EXTINCTION of Americas children. And their current catastrophic health care condition. SCHIP needs to be extended to cover all of Americas children, immediately. Parents should have no hesitations, or financial worries about seeking medical care for their children. Whenever they have any concerns about their children’s health. Especially in the richest country in the world. I would submit that any President, or politician that fails to do this for the children. Betrays their most solemn oath to protect the American people. Especially when you consider that all other developed countries have done this. And that we are the richest country in the world.
So get on it America. Get it done. You have been doing great over the past several months. Keep it up. And step it up. You have to force it, and take it. It’s the right fight, and the right thing to do. Now is the time… Take no prisoners.