‘History will not judge this kindly’
Describing the Bush administration’s affinity for torture, Michael Stickings noted this morning, “[I]t’s not all about John Yoo. The U.S. didn’t just start torturing its detainees because a government lawyer said it was okay, or because some executive-branch extremist like David Addington determined that anything and everything was permissible in a time of war, or because some dim-witted troops at Abu Ghraib just didn’t know any better. At some point, early on, a decision to allow torture, to enable it, must have been made — and it must have been made at the highest levels of government.”
In dozens of top-secret talks and meetings in the White House, the most senior Bush administration officials discussed and approved specific details of how high-value al Qaeda suspects would be interrogated by the Central Intelligence Agency, sources tell ABC News.
The so-called Principals who participated in the meetings also approved the use of “combined” interrogation techniques — using different techniques during interrogations, instead of using one method at a time — on terrorist suspects who proved difficult to break, sources said.
Highly placed sources said a handful of top advisers signed off on how the CIA would interrogate top al Qaeda suspects — whether they would be slapped, pushed, deprived of sleep or subjected to simulated drowning, called waterboarding.
The high-level discussions about these “enhanced interrogation techniques” were so detailed, these sources said, some of the interrogation sessions were almost choreographed — down to the number of times CIA agents could use a specific tactic.
The “Principals,” ABC reported, included Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell, CIA Director George Tenet, Attorney General John Ashcroft, and National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, who chaired the meetings.
According to one top official, Ashcroft reportedly asked aloud after one meeting, “Why are we talking about this in the White House? History will not judge this kindly.”
On this, Ashcroft could not have been more correct.
Here’s the video of last night’s ABC report, by way of Think Progress.
Marc Ambinder, among others, raises the prospect of war-crimes charges against these top White House “Principals.”
A provocative headline, I know, perhaps needlessly so, but it remains one of those hidden secrets in Washington that a Democratic Justice Department is going to be very interested in figuring out whether there’s a case to be made that senior Bush Administration officials were guilty of war crimes. Stories like these from ABC News — Top Bush Advisors Approved ‘Enhanced Interrogation’ — will be as relevant a year from now as they are right now, perhaps even more so.
Jack Balkin, however, notes that the Military Commissions Act can serve as a get-out-of-the-Hague-free card.
Remember that sections 8 and 6(b) of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 effectively insulated government officials from liability for many of the violations of the War Crimes Act they might have committed during the period prior to 2006. Moreover, as Marty has pointed out, there’s a strong argument that a later Justice Department would not prosecute people who reasonably relied on legal advice from a previous Justice Department. Perhaps the Justice Department could argue that the officials’ reliance was unreasonable, but that might be difficult to show.
Either way, the disgrace the “Principals” have brought upon the country is practically beyond question. As a form of political justice, I’d love to see the Democratic nominee start to tell audiences, ”We want to restore honor and integrity to the White House. Should I be fortunate enough to become your president, when I put my hand on the Bible, I will swear to not only uphold the laws of the land, but I will also swear to uphold the honor and dignity of the office to which I have been elected, so help me God.”
Marc Ambinder, among others, raises the prospect of war-crimes charges against these top White House “Principles.”
“Principals.” They clearly have no “principles.”
Let the mighty douchebags (deep breath) SSSOOOOOAAARRRRR!!!!
The pincipals are utterly lacking in principles.
These guys all really suck. But it seems that Ashcroft is rehabilitating his image somewhat standing up to Abu Gonzales and this.
Now, since some these guys are unemployed or shortly to be unemployed, I got a suggestion for Ashcroft and his buddies Trent Lott and Larry Craig. They should set up shop in Branson, MO and revive their singing careers.
Only nine months left? I don’t give a rat’s ass.
We need to fast track impeachment proceedings against the remaining “Principals”.
Legislation should be passed that will reverse the protection provided in the Patriot Act and all these people should be tried for war crimes including Bush. Any republicans from congress who collaborated with Bush should be tried as well.
BRING the TROOPS HOME NOW!
How nice that Ashcroft wasn’t concerned with the torture they were condoning, but by the impropriety that they were discussing it in official meetings, rather than just ‘winking’ to approve it…
Seems to me he was more concerned with the legal ramifications to himself and the others if (when) the news became public…
but jack bauer does it! and he gets pretty good ratings…
This could make a movie just like “The Wansee Conference” (a meeting where the Nazi honchos get together to discuss how they are going to implement and manage the Holocaust – the bureaucratization of evil, complete with timetables, flowcharts, projections, and petty turf wars).
If there were any justice, history not judging these war criminals kindly should be the least of Ashcroft’s worries.
Thanks again, Democrats, for passing a law that may insulate this scum from justice.
Wait a damned minute, Ashcroft was Bush’s semi descent Attorney General and conscience?
Of course the problem didn’t originate with John Yoo. His role in the matter is lending credibility to what appears to be a completely ridiculous and outrageous claim: that the U.S. government can essentially do whatever it wants in a time of war. But his role is, in my view, event more damaging, because that’s how these ideas move from the fringe into the mainstream: people who actually have the authority and education to write an article or memo like this start doing it and then it takes on the aura of a legitimate opinion. It’s a very dangerous precedent. It’s the equivalent of the Bush administration finding one insane doctor who agrees that bloodletting is a way to treat cancer, having him write a memo or an article while working for the government supporting such an ridiculous claim, and then instituting a policy that doctors should to this.
Ashcroft was still a swine, albeit with a few principles, so it’s only a matter of degree. He still went along enthusiastically with those jackass colour-coded alerts that made Americans shit their pants at first, thinking they were under succeeding waves of attacks.
These people were criminals, plain and simple. And as self-evident as that truth is the certainty that they will suffer no consequences for their desecration of America’s image. On the contrary, in certain circles (white supremacists, for example), they will be regarded as futuristic and farseeing leaders who did not shrink from what must be done. They will speak of what big balls Condi had, and how Donald Rumsfeld was on the cusp of turning the United States military into an unbeatable juggernaut, but the whiny liberals dragged him down just when success lay within his reach. Keep in mind that those are your countrymen, with whom you’re expected to make common cause and present a joint American face to the world.
It always makes me laugh how Republicans attempt to sell themselves as the real men, and not-so-slyly insinuate that leaders like Obama are “sort of feminine” – yet John Boehner broke down in front of the entire legislature and wept like a girl scout, because he felt America was not “taking on al Qaeda” with sufficient dispatch. More recently, Michael Mukasey choked up with his remembrance of mysterious phone calls leading up to 9-11, although his memory of the event seems to differ significantly from recorded events.
At least in recent history, Republicans suck at projecting power and the military arts, but excel at graft and corruption. Imagine, if you can, the kind of government that might have resulted had Karl Rove achieved his envisioned permanent majority.
“The so-called Principals who participated in the meetings also approved the use of “combined” interrogation techniques — using different techniques during interrogations, instead of using one method at a time — on terrorist suspects who proved difficult to break, sources said.”
I’d like to know what high-value al Qaeda operative was in their hands at the time, and how he was proving “difficult to break”. And I’d like to know if we got REAL intelligence after breaking him, or just torture fantasies like we’ve gotten from KSM.
And I’d like to know what the ‘Principal’ who was quivering in his chair at the White House on 9/11/01 and illegally ordering the U.S. Military to shot down American airliners was saying in these meetings. Could it be he who suggested we go all “Jack Baurer” on the terrorists?
How many “smoking guns” have we had but no fingerprints on the trigger? When is someone going to step forward with the irrefutable proof that’s required to put these asshats away?
Simple concept here: If the MCA supposedly buffers these “piss-ant principals” from liability under the WCA retroactively, then isn’t the MCA effectively an ex post facto law? If so, the MCA becomes null and void under an administration that recognizes it as such, and the “gang of Rice” should still be accountable under WCA.
Then again, we could always just chase those principals into the mountains and show them how they SHOULD have dealt with Tora Bora.
Pass the B-2 full of bunker-busters, please….
beep52:
In my opinion, no matter how much damning evidence comes forward, the best we can look forward to is a changing of the guard, and hopefully a better-run country. That’s it. These ‘principals’ won’t be charged with war crimes; who’s going to come forward for that?
It’s like in ‘Batman Begins’ when Officer Gordon is told the other cops are jumpy that he’s a clean cop, and he just responds, “I’m no rat. In a town this bad, who is there to rat to?” I give you Bush’s America.
Ashcroft could say something and demonstrate at least a semblance of a conscience, and Colin Powell couldn’t (or wouldn’t).
Time to remember that then-Major Colin Powell was the guy who wrote the whitewash report on the My Lai Massacre.
If there was ever a major figure in politics who was all form and absolutely no substance, Colin Powell has to be that guy. There’s a very accurate term for him that white boys like me can’t use – it relates to the social classes of slaves and which ones were the traitors and sellouts.
Yes, Attorney General Ashcroft, if only the conversations had taken place in the EOB or the Naval Observatory, then all would have been fine. He’s just covering his butt…and he was dumped at the first convenient moment.
Second, thank you Blue Dog Democrats and other fellow travellers for the Military Commissions Act. I no longer have the right to habeas corpus and these criminals have a “get out of jail free” card.
You know, it was their bright idea to approve of this crap to show the “enemy” our seriousness this time. Provide a disproportionate response to peoples who could (alledgedly) be cowed by fear. In one of those little imperial ironies, we have only cowed ourselves. We ARE the hollow men…hollow military, hollow economy, hollow leaders, hollow morals, hollow culture. Maybe there are still some rays of hope in all those, but I don’t see it stepping up to the microphone.
Torture by our government did not start with the Bush Administration, but at least we had the decency not to celebrate it. We even signed treaties stating we would not do it. But I guess Dick Cheney’s birdcage needed new lining after his copy of the Constitution became too soaked.
Of course they discussed torture, of course they set policy for it, and of course George Walker Bush knew…and approved. And of course they cannot point to a single instance in which it worked. Degradation of other humans comes quite easily to hollow men.
“I’d like to know what high-value al Qaeda operative was in their hands at the time, and how he was proving “difficult to break”. And I’d like to know if we got REAL intelligence after breaking him, or just torture fantasies like we’ve gotten from KSM.” – Lance
Does it matter ?? Getting actual useful information would only validate their reasoning.
My theory on why they pushed torture so hard was because these clowns would have buckled with a couple of bitch slaps and they could not understand how someone could be so principled that they wouldn’t ‘give it up’ when the real deal was unleashed. The real tragedy is I doubt many of them stepped back to think, “maybe this guy doesn’t know anything”.
This is the second instance of Ashcroft being the only voice of reason (first being the Hospital visit). Seems to me if we are going to go after anyone, he is the one we might the guy we give immunity to. Seems like he has some grasp of the Constitution.
Imagine this administration deciding something then making the facts match their conclusion. “John Yoo your job is to make torture legal”
Todd says: “In one of those little imperial ironies, we have only cowed ourselves. We ARE the hollow men…hollow military, hollow economy, hollow leaders, hollow morals, hollow culture. “
Agreed.
Most Americans are fine with torture. An even bigger portion are fine with torture as long as it’s done in secret.
This culture is, in large part, just like George W Bush.
The bad thing about going after them now is that Bush will just pardon them all right before he leaves office.
What? This in the news? I feel another Britney Breakdown coming on now that the campaigns need a break.
There are doubts among many legal scholars that this part of the MCA will hold up, but to make sure, a Democratic Congress could amend the law to remove the protections for war crimes.
Additionally, there are jurisdictional problems with any US law claiming none of its officials can be tried for war crimes. The US simply does not have the legal jurisdiction to void the Geneva Conventions or the ICC.
It was a desperate law shoved down the throats of Americans by a desperate, criminal cadre of politicians.
Steve,
Then again, we could always just chase those principals into the mountains and show them how they SHOULD have dealt with Tora Bora.
Or given the fact that we’ve effectively thrown out Habeus Corpus laws, the next Dem adminstration could throw all the “principals” into a cell in Guantanamo. Then start the long, long effort to restore Habeus Corpus. As long as we do no permanent injury those same “principals” wouldn’t have any problem with it, right?
…. fuck ‘his-story’ … anyone here believes that Caligula is showing remorse now that we have written so badly about hisself???!!!!
I ‘wepeat” fuck and double fuck history …. educate yourselves you stupid little merkun dunces ….!!! 100 years from now history will be showing bush in a good light and it still won’t do a fuck all of nothing to help put the cocksucker in jail … he ‘be’ dead fo’ long time Bubba !!!!!!
I say you pay for the crime NOW … put that vile piece of sub human shit in jail .. fuck the presidency’s image … we know assholes can be preznits anyway so the ‘presidency’ is not all that is cracked up to be … fuck bush to the hilt with the biggest branch that asshole cleared up in Crawford the last time he was there … furthermore see if it is possible to ‘re-grow’ said branch while it is up his ass … we’ll write later!!
Ashcroft was the top law enforcement person in the nation, and he was wondering why they are talking about such matters in the White House? The very fact that he said something speaks volumes about his own personal responsibility and guilt; he knew better; he had to have known better. What is going on here? The shed blood of many innocents calls out for justice. Millitary Commissions Act be damned; you can’t pass an unconstitutional law. It is a grevious day in America when such unprincipled thugs get to behave in such a shameful manner. Nancy Pelosi the blood of innocents ask you for a measure of justice. The American people are entitled to no less.