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17 Responses to “my article on fivefold ministry in leadership journal”

1. Erik on May 21st, 2008 9:10 am

   Thanks Alan for sharing this article. I could really appreciate the deeper callings between the inter-relationships of APEST leadership!

2. Lucy J on May 21st, 2008 3:41 pm

   Yeah, Alan, I think you were right… it would have been good to see something on the priesthood of all believers. One thing I really did like was the way you addressed the issue of ‘getting along’ using the concept of the hats… we experimented with that in our little missional community group in the context of looking at a project from different angles to gain a fuller understanding of implications and possibilities, but it’s a great idea to use it for cross-understanding amongst a group of divergent thinkers/movers!
   All the best with your current writing/publication projects…
   Lucy J

3. John D on May 21st, 2008 8:56 pm

   I appreciate the article as well. A question, though? Do you feel that the APEST should be local in the church or can some be local and the remainder be in relationship with the leadership team but not be local in the body? For instance, the local team being PST, but in relationship with AE who are part of a larger core.

   I hope my question is clear.

4. steven hamilton on May 21st, 2008 9:44 pm

   self observation and question alan:

   i have witnessed that when i have had occasion to change contexts (from one local church and moving the family to another area and a new local church) that in this incarnational transition, the gifting/dynamic/grace that moves to the fore seems to be context-dependent as i try to help and serve in the new context. for example, at ne place i was much more a teacher, but in a new place i find myself being more prophetic in ministry.

   i know you say we have all of them in us so-to-speak, but have you witnessed this type of incarnational gifting based on new context?

   thanks for sharing your life and profound thoughts as you do alan…

   peace

5. Brian Hofmeister on May 22nd, 2008 12:24 am

   Loved the article, I’m passing it around my staff. It’s going to be some work to uncover the APE we’ve discouraged from using their full gifting.

6. alan h on May 22nd, 2008 12:33 am

   John, I do think that what you are suggesting can work. My contention however is that the part has the full potential of the whole in it. So APEST can be foud locally. It might be underdeveloped. Having said that, the A and perhaps P and E are more translocal in nature and so will extend beyond the local.

7. John D on May 22nd, 2008 12:54 am

   I tend to agree, Alan, that they should all be in the local community. I think the question we have to look at is if they are not, do we provide them through relationships (your “trans-local”) until those are raised up in the local body, or do we just wait until they are raised up locally to be brought into the leadership team.

   I feel that those raised locally have a better understanding of what God has called that particular expression of the Church to be, but how do you live in the “mean-time”?

8. Peggy on May 22nd, 2008 5:51 am

   Steve (#4),

   Just a word to say that I have experienced that same thing. I was called to serve in my most recent post in ways that were very different for me, personally. Within that new context, the Spirit would bring into my ministry threads from the other areas, but it was very interesting to be standing in a very different place.

   Alan — what a terrific article. And though I understand your disappointment with them focusing the context to leadership for their purpose, the principles still translate and anyone that is drawn to your work through this article will run smack into your passion for the priesthood of all the believers.

   John,

   My suggestion would be that if you need to go trans-local for one component, that individual should be apprenticing someone in the local environment, not just “filling the void”. Sustainability (my new focus these days) comes only as the local folks are engaged in the five areas — as members of the ministry teams and as apprenticing leaders, should they be so led.

9. Lucy J on May 22nd, 2008 2:45 pm

   Thanx, all for your observations and experiences. I would have to admit that I’m an example of God’s grace in growing into a role that was way to big for me to contemplate, but having retired from it after 9 years of agonistic ecstasy, it’s great to look back and see it in terms of Alan’s explorations which I have only relatively recently discovered. One thing, I would like to ask Alan/anybody/everybody… my understanding of Wolfgang Simpson’s ideas is that the APE roles (I can’t help quietly gagging everytime I read that acronym)were originally travelling roles amongst the various early ‘churches’, and that each ‘church’ was made up of a collection of ‘home groups’ or similar. So perhaps the ST roles are more local in outworking? Although I can also see Shepherding and Teaching roles in operation in the wider community of the body of Christ also… like Pastor of Pastors or Teacher of Teachers… maybe I’ve answered my own question… that the APEST is likely to operate both locally and trans… any comments?

   Lucy J

10. Matt Stone on May 22nd, 2008 4:30 pm

    John, I’d suggest the best way to identify APEs is to take note of which of your local people are most engaged in parachurch ministry, whether that be TEAR, Scripture Union, whatever. Look twice as hard if they’re disengaged locally. Could be that they’d be open to doing stuff locally but can’t find an outlet in the existing system.

11. Matt Stone on May 22nd, 2008 4:44 pm

    Lucy, though I agree in part, the thing that needs to be kept in view is that apostles like Paul we’re always on the move. In between they did hang out with churches, sometimes years at a time. And even when on the move there appears to have been a strong reciprochal relationship between local and translocal workers. That’s not what we find today. What we find is parachurch ministries that have little or no involvement in and with local church ministries. What we find today is mutual outsourcing with little passing between other than stray bods and cash.

    So, local church doesn’t want to do mission but is happy to send cash to parachurch. Parachurch doesn’t want to do worship but is happy to tell its workers to go elsewhere. What results is a disconnect. We need to transcend that disconnect. Now, whether that involves local churches becoming more missional, or parachurches becoming more worshipful (something I have explored), or church and parachurch working in more organic partnership, I am open to all that. But I think the issue is, how can they all function together in relationship, cause that’s not the status quo.

12. Matt Stone on May 22nd, 2008 4:45 pm

    Sorry … we’re NOT always on the move

13. Eleanor Burne-Jones on May 22nd, 2008 6:32 pm

    I see the disconnect all around me, and as in every church conflict, the people who are in the position of less power can be seen to be working the hardest for unity. We see them praying and working for ecumenical relations to improve and for better integration between traditional church and those on the creative fringes. But the only progress toward unity possible is that by modernity churches, and they don’t see the need to change, at least collectively - or they would have done it. I wonder if God is giving the gifts in a healthy distribution but in unhealthy church situations where people can’t seem to learn how to work together. The giving of the gifts is certainly only the beginning of the venture. The real challenge is still up ahead.

14. Matt Stone on May 23rd, 2008 12:14 pm

    I think there is a question of vested interests, amongst both laity and clergy to leave things as they are, and that it can lead to implicit and explicit repression of those gifts which most threaten the status quo. So there is a real challenge as to how we might bless the church with gifts it does not want or even think it needs. I think this is where it is important to have a firm sense of calling. Whether the church wants it or not, body diversity is what God calls us to. And this calling is not status specific, it matters not if we are laity or clergy, it only matters that we are God’s people.

15. Lucy J on May 23rd, 2008 3:12 pm

    BIG YEAH, Matt! Interestingly enough, my experience was that at one stage I was outworking/growing my the call on my life with creative movement arts in a local church situation and through that was connected in with a parachurch organisation. I got ostracised from the church and ‘found my feet’ in the parachurch scene, and found that parachurch was a misnoma, as the passionate and focused people there actually practised more of Christ’s teachings/example than in the local context! I have never encountered a more worshipful network of people of incredible artistic and ethno-cultural diversity working sacrificially to obey God and serve Kingdom purposes… it was started by a woman thirty years ago and is still thriving despite incredible odds and no funding other than membership and sundry donations! It has always striven to uphold the principle of unity in diversity and to serve the wider body of Christ… and believe me, 30 years ago the church in general knew little about and was quite resistant to creative movement arts OR women in leadership! The firm sense of calling and the unflinching devotion of many in this particular ‘parachurch’, both clergy and laity involved in fact, has seen it safely into the new millennium. I tell you what… it was (and still is) an incredibly hard spiritual battle… but the grace of God has perpetually triumphed over all the personality clashes, gender issues, divergent leadership styles and multi-denominational differences. In fact, I’m amazed telling the story! And I am very interested in networking with others to translate some of that experience into any local church or dare I say it, parachurch situation in which I find myself. May we all learn more about and from each other as God and glorious purposes are revealed through our cyber-friendships and discussions!
    Lucy J

16. Tim C on May 25th, 2008 7:00 am

    Speaking of the Fantastic Five….

    http://ikonplant.blogspot.com/2006/03/17.html

17. grace on May 28th, 2008 2:59 pm

    I thought the article was brilliant. Because there is a natural conflict and tension between the various perspectives, it is imperative to create an environment that validates the necessity of the diversity of perspectives.

    There is such a tendency to react as if a different perspective than ours is wrong. Imagine if we established from the outset that 5 different perspectives are necessary, thereby creating value for the variety of gifts and views.

    Holding power in a central position usually prevents this from happening, and disbursing power is not seen favorably in hierarchical systems.

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