Wednesday, July 16, 2008

The fallacy of choice

I'm sure by now I don't really have to describe in detail this phenomenon: Whenever you criticize a luser about his choice of OS, he'll inevitably come back with, "at least it gives me choices." Choice in window manager, choice in terminal application, choice in file manager, choice in desktop environment, choice in kernel version, you name it.

This "choice", as loudly as it is trumpeted, is a key reason that Linux has not made it on the desktop. Let me attempt to show you why.

Every argument for "choice" is usually accompanied by a statement along the lines of, "there are many different kinds of users that prefer different choices, therefore we need to support all of them." In terms of distribution of choices, given 10 choices, this statement implies the following type of distribution.

In other words, ten equal choices with ten roughly equal-sized groups each preferring a different choice. For some limited version of the world, this may be true (for example, existing people who are FOSS users already, fighting amongst themselves). But if you look at the general population at large, I claim a different picture emerges:

Here, the blue represents the people who don't care about a particular choice, and actively do not want to have to make a choice. They just want things to work. They will take "working" over "choice" in an instant. They essentially want the developers to make choices for them.*

Linux and FOSS so far have optimized for the former picture of the world, not the latter. In doing so, they've concentrated on inserting abstraction layers and decoupled mechanisms at every layer of the stack: kernel, graphical toolkit, command line shell, terminal program, text editor, office suite, window manager, desktop environment, sound system, etc. etc.

In adding choice after choice, Linux moves farther and farther from what the mainstream user wants.

Furthermore, any developer will tell you that each time a new layer of "choice" is added, the possible number of configurations multiplies. This means more untested configurations, more bugs, and more brokenness. Not necessarily due to incompetence of developers, but rather simply due to the sheer number of configurations that are possible.

So not only does the addition of so many choices alienate would be users, it also makes it difficult for developers to create tested, working configurations. It's a double whammy. Obsession with providing choice it every level actively works against efforts that would otherwise push Linux to provide what the mainstream wants.

Look at OSX. The amount of choice you have in OSX is minuscule compare to what you get with Linux. Yet, do you see the majority of mac users complaining? Look at the internet, look at how IE still has a huge market share. People like to think that it's because people don't know any better and that they need to be educated. My experience says otherwise. People don't care. They want what works for them. For the vast majority of cases IE works for people. It may not be optimal, but people just don't care.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Even current lusers don't want choice between two or more options that are broken. They want a working baseline, and then they want to be able to make all the choices they personally care about. Unfortunately, there are very few projects that are concentrated on developing this working baseline. Instead they usually try to build one small piece of the puzzle, then make it interface with as many other parts in numerous and useless ways.

Let's look at the server side. Why does Linux succeed here? One of the big reasons is that there is a working baseline. Everyone knows what it's called: LAMP. If in doubt, start with LAMP. Yes, there are still other options. Different webservers, different databases, different programming languages, even different OS'es (WIMP anyone?). The point is that if you don't want to make any of these choices, and instead you want a proven base starting point, you have one.

Unfortunately on the desktop side, no such "non-choice" choice exists. In addition, there are many more pieces that need to work together to provide a friendly experience. What is the LAMP of the desktop? Whatever it is, it's going to have a lot more letters. I claim it still doesn't exist. Everyone disagrees what the desktop should be. Everyone wants choice. Everyone except the mainstream users that the desktop is supposed to be built for.


* In some sense, distros try to do this. But this fails for a few reasons. 1) There are too many distros. 2) Distros aren't the ones with the expertise to make the right choices.

232 flames:

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Anonymous said...

Yet here is the funny one. Linux Standard Base is the core project merging it all. You completely missed that too its not just Lamp why Linux is good in server. Its that commercial applications install very will for web server due to the Linux Standard Base.

The argument you just gave is the exactly argument that started Linux Standard Base in 2001. Yet from the start this project was decided not to be forked because it would do more harm than good.

When you have a 1000+ way split merging unfortunately takes time. Server side stuff was done first. Only desktop was started being worked on in the Linux Standard Base in the last 3 years. Changes in the next LSB will see another change. Become part of the solution not the problem. By clearly and truthfully documenting what we have to fix. Rehashing stuff Linux Standard Base is already working on is pointless trolling.

You percent is out way out. People running non IE web browsers tell us that. Its basically 30 percent of the market at this stage and growing. Might correctly the graphic Linuxhater to show the truth instead of creating a new myth.

Use the truth not lies.

Anonymous said...

I take back everything I said. I'm an idiot...

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry for all the trouble I have caused, I can't control myself, therefore all future postings from me should be considered null and void, I have autism/adhd/add/etc, I beat my cock to richard stallman every night.

*takes his os and goes home*

Anonymous said...

Mainstream, mainstream,

I don't think that "mainstream" is the target group of this whole GNU and/or Linux development.

The target group is the woman or man who has the knowledge to "choose". The target group is the group which gives value to "freedom" -in the sense of Free Software- . You can like this fact or not, but in some time and way we have to make it clear, that if you value your freedom _and_ you can educate yourself to some degree where you can make choices about the software and hardware platforms you want to use _then_ GNU/Linux is for you.

And not for some "mainstream".
There are other social groups who make the choice to _not_ open themselfs to "mainstream". Punks, Heavy Metal gals and guys, the Gothic scene and also the "real" hackers - about whom we normal computer users read only in the newsletter in direct connection with the FBI - all these are groups who _do not_ want to be mainstream. This is their choice and god dammit it is their fucking right to make this choice to close up to the fuckers out there because they do not understand what Punk or Metal is about.

I don't want the mainstream to come to Linux. Because they don't understand.
Will Linux be stopped developing when the mainstream - and with it all the magazines and podcats and web-sites - stop reporting? NO.
Even GNU/Herd is actively developed today. Okay, the development is slow, and it is making not so much "bling bling". But this is good. You don't get overcrowded by pissed on brains who scream all day "We want to click here and we want to click there because we are too stupid to even write a line on the terminal".

In the not so distant future we will see that developers will go to the side line operating systems because there they get the silence to develop what they want. Not what a fucking crowd of mainstream with shitful of brain wants them to develop.

Anonymous said...

Anon #1:

You miss the point -- why should it take 3 years to create the LAMP of the desktop? The AMP in LAMP represent a reasonably-good-of-breed (not necessarily best-of-breed) that are known to work together. Surely by now you've figured that out.

Anonymous said...

I could be wrong here, but I think the previous LSB argument can be summed up with this one post:

http://www.unixtutorial.org/2008/03/find-out-linux-version-using-lsb/

DamnRight said...

So by your account, LSB is 7 years old, and actively working on the desktop problem since three. Dunno if you noticed, but the situation is getting worse, not better. So, at best, LSB is doing jack shit, which is absolutely obvious to anybody not drinking the Kool-aid. The only mild progress in that area is due to some dude throwing a few millions of his own money at the problem. And of course it doesn't solve the problem itself, which is lack of killer apps. Standardize all you want (if you can, and you apparently can't), you're still stuck with pretty mediocre stuff, with devs who seem to ignore crucial feature requests on purpose. Of course everything is just a week, a patch, a recompile away. It's really not that hard to grasp, but still ...

Anonymous said...

Mainstream anonymous you are a tard.

How can you have "The year of Linux on the desktop" (TM) if you don't have Linux go mainstream??

Whoops, someone's not thinking

FanningTheFlames said...

Hey LH,

These FOSS guys make it so easy to pick on them.
http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/linuxaudio.png

Check the first reply to this here:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=248171

I swear you can't make this shit up!

Alexei said...

Mainstream anonymous - that's exactly why Linuxes (as in "more then 1 OS") will never get out of their basement 3%

Alexei said...

FanningTheFlames - hilarious! :))
Thank you for the link.

Anonymous said...

What lusers can't understand is that some people, myself included, are willing to put up with a lot of Microsoft bullshit just because Windows works with no problems MOST OF THE TIME. Yet, lusers believe that the world revolves around them and people use Windows out of pure idiocy.

Show me something better than Windows and I'll switch in a moment. You already claim to be better than Windows yet the whole FOSS world is a mess: Linux sound, package management, wireless and video drivers, webcam support, professional publishing/audio/video tools, IDEs, sane desktop environments - they're all jack shit or non-existent.

Blow me, you basement dwelling retards!

Anonymous said...

IE is fucking pathetic and doesn't deserve any market share. It is shipped with Windows which is why it has a market share in the first place. Horribly insecure and should be declared a virus. Use a real browser retards.

Anonymous said...

http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/ProjectPlan40 This is the next part of the project due in November.

Its not doing jack. Problem has been massively complex. Most people don't notice that in 2001 You could not be even sure that installed applications would show up when you changed windows manager.

Movement of the LSB(Linux Standard Base) Has been slow can careful.

What is the point of a Killer application if you are fragmented across 1000 distrobutions.

You have to clean up mess then worry about killer application don't worry few are planed and being developed.

Anonymous said...

Isn't LSB based on Qt? Everyone knows that Qt sucks. I'll start my own LSB based on GTK.

Choice!

Anonymous said...

Good God, I've heard about how problematic Linux audio is, but to think that it's that messed up. What's worse are the comments:

"Oh Noes! You mean I have choices of how to handle audio on my linux boxes?!"

"What is all this FUD about? [...] You can staticly compile them into the flash plugin.
Pick you choise and quit whining."

DamnRight said...

http://www.linuxfoundation.org/en/ProjectPlan40 This is the next part of the project due in November.

Or later, or never. Anyway, it only took 10 years. Whew! What will this accomplish exactly once it's done, around 2011 or so?

Movement of the LSB(Linux Standard Base) Has been slow can careful.

Sure. Check out this article, by the FOSS hater that writes glibc:

http://udrepper.livejournal.com/8511.html

What is the point of a Killer application if you are fragmented across 1000 distrobutions.

You don't get it, and probably never will. That's fine.

You have to clean up mess then worry about killer application don't worry few are planed and being developed.

I'm sick of your bullshit peddling. Show me the code, show me the project pages, show me the alpha builds, show me the competent project managers, show me a modicum of sanity, show me a viable business model, show me some restraint on fucking up everything due to petty ego issues, and most of all show me satisfied users doing something with them, not geeks fiddling. So far you have vague promises, as always. But it will come, I swear! You just need to enable it with some CLI magic!

Anonymous said...

Linux audio problematic? LOLZ!

Wait till you use one of the BSD's. The real looser here is you.

Anonymous said...

It's becoming increasingly apparent: You don't hate Linux. You love it. You want to save it.

You might hate the "freetards", but only because they might ruin what you love so much.

This is really the Linux Lover's Blog. A game of affection and rejection maybe, but by no means hate.

Actually, you're not just loud and insightful, you're also quite sweet. Keep it up!

Anonymous said...

darmright. Look at openoffices downloads for Linux over the years. Each progression of LSB has seen its packaging simplify. Today with LSB 3.2 its only 2 files for all distributions out there.

The end to all what you keep on complaining about should be sometime in 2009. With the LSB after 4.0.

LSB 4.0 is basically the end of the current distribution model. Where you will be free to get applications from third parties. Where developers can start providing packages for desktop use for everyone. Some distributions will see and take this onboard and become package providers for other distributions as well.

Now ask yourself truthfully what would be the greatest feature that Linux could provide to the business world desktops. Answer that and you have what is up sleeve. Projects are out there its not my job to find them for you. Also not my job to tell you so you can beat me to the punch.

How hard to you think its really to make cli usage disappear for good from Linux. That is not even a complex task. It has been done in the past if you look back. Yet due to unstable state it died. This is exactly what I am getting on about. We cannot develop killer features and keep them alive while Linux is fragmented badly. LSB 4.0 is the start and a end.

Linuxhater will have to start eating his words one day. Its closing in.

Anonymous said...

Ps That time issue udrepper found was in the Linux Kernel itself currently being repaired. It was outside the Linux Standard Bases control. So Linux Standard Base told him to do the only thing they could to run the tests.

No point use a old out of date document to protect ones ass.

Anonymous said...

^ Speaking of the CLI. I'm still waiting for improvements. Where is the consistency? When are the commands going to pass the output as objects rather than plain-text?

Platypus said...

Another reason for this excess of choice is that often nobody can make a choice stick. Developer A wants things to work this way, Developer B wants it to work that way, neither can overrule the other so it ends up being yet another option among thousands in the application's crowded config dialog or (more often) cryptic and uniquely-structured config file. I've seen both KDE and GNOME partisans bash each other over this pattern, always seeing the mote in another's eye but never the beam in their own.

Then Developer B is still upset that Developer A's option is the default, so he forks the code and now you have two almost but not quite identical apps. Even better, right? :rolleyes:

Anonymous said...

If you don't like Linux, don't use it!

DamnRight said...

wow, the anonymous comments really are top-notch today.

Anonymous said...

I am the one who above made the point that GNU/Linux doesn't need the "mainstream".

Some commenters have asked then how the GNU/Linux developers/development should ever reach higher marketshare or the Linux year of desktop.

My answer to that:
I hope that Linux never ever reaches some "year of Desktop" or "year of Server" or any other market / marketing / Bullshitbingo kind of goal.

At this moment I am in the process of fully migrating to OpenBSD - my desktop, my (few) server processes , even my games (some Java based games like Megamek) - ... Why?

Because there I will find the Zen like silence without those "mainstream" idiots

who first scream that they want all the things the M$ way

and then after the devels of GNOME/KDE make it in M$ way come screaming and whining that GNOME/KDE devels are stupid who can only copy closed propriatary developments.


I really hope that GNU/Linux devels stop going after any marketshare and let the people come to them - because then it is guaranteed that only the interested and open minded people will come -.

Full stop.

LIS said...

@anon
So you're Claiming that the entire FOSS movement was made for your own entertainment, and other peoples' opinions do not matter to you? Fine, tell that to DARPA (who funded freeBSD), RedHat, Canonical and Novell, I'm sure they'll be more than happy to continue creating the free software stack (as poorly and mismanaged as it is), only to cater to your elitist, nose up your ass attitude.

Software without users dies, always.

Now go and lock yourself in a cave with your collection of dildos. Maybe than you'll find the "Zen like silence" you seek.

Anonymous said...

Wow, can't believe this guy is actually leaving Linux just because he doesn't feel special anymore since he feels Linux is becoming popular.

Well, at least you're dumping Linux, so good for you (and your little java games).

bahaha

Anonymous said...

@lis:

But take a good look at HOW these companies really make their money.
a) With targetting the screaming boys from M$ land
or
b) With targetting the "silent" and "easy" professionals / scientists who want to use and operate their servers / super-computers.


All this shitty growing of screaming at developers and contributers of distributions began as the M$ crowd found its way to Linux land.

Look at the users mailing lists of OpenBSD. All the screaming/whining shitheads don't make it long there.
All the users of OBSD are cool and knowledged people who will find their way of using OBSD even if their help request is somewhat ignored - as no one can make help for everyone -.

I did not say that RedHat should not make Billions. But they do it without this forever pissing crowd of Excel and "Multimedia" users.
RedHat's customers are in the serverspace.

And do not tell me that an OS without "users" is dead. Fucking stupid FUD!
Plan9 is actively developed. But they don't have these "users" who just demand out of their ass that the Plan9 devs should make the "desktop" like some ${marketleader}.
Plan9 is not dead.
In just the same way you can see it for OpenBSD or NetBSD. All actively developed OS. But without those "users".

We don't need them.

And if you are some of those who just want to demand that a KDE developer should press your GayTunes(TM) into the KDE system then we don't need you, too.

Anonymous said...

> Wow, can't believe this guy is actually > leaving Linux just because he doesn't
> feel special anymore since he feels
> Linux is becoming popular.

I am not "leaving" Linux land because I want to fell special.

I have really, _really_ , REALLY enough of all those "voices" in the Internet who chit and chat and shit and scat to bring some developer - who works for "nothing" and only for his own needs - to implement their propriatary desktop (functionality) one to one into the Free Software space. And then if they don't get it then again to chit and chat and shit and scat.


In the days as only the experienced and knowledged users cvs co-c-m-mi'ed their "desktop" - containign of the console+Emacs - we had a way better community.

And now we have LH.
And because there is no OpenBSD haters blogspot I am "leaving" the Linux land.

Understand?

Bodhibuilder said...

I don't think that "mainstream" is the target group of this whole GNU and/or Linux development.
Yeah, you don't but the rest of these dreaming about "Linux egdes one step closer to world domination", "year of the linux desktop", saying how Linsux is easy and Widows ackward, MS hating free software wankers do. Tell that to Stallman himself, who longs for the World without proprietary software. If all lusers where like you, there would be no irrational hype, no misleading propaganda, ultimately no reason to start this blog or participate in it. Most of the haters here are people who fell for this Foss indoctrination and lost their time and temper on Linux. Not because they're stupid, but because it wasn't what it was promised to be. Why isn't there BSD hater's blog? Even if somebody tried BSD and didn't find it suiting his needs there were certainly no broken hopes, no resentment, because it wasn't advertised as The Eight Wonder of The World!
Most of you are just like Mormons/Jehova's Witnesses/Catholics or some other cult who go around trying to force their bullshit dogma on you, annoying the crap out of everybody and then wondering why everybody hates them. "Ah, yes, it's probably 'cause we're the Chosen Ones who fight the great evil."

Markus said...

To the first anon guy who said "Linux Standard Base " will solve this I have a simple question:

Does this LSB change anything in Xorg? Yes or no.

The answer is easy, and the implications of this answer are easy too.

LIS said...

BodhiBuilder summed it up quite well.
We fell for false advertisement, wasted time and effort, and got bitten, hard.

If FOSS has been a commercial entity, it could be sues for deceit, false advertisement, not providing advertised service, etc.

Since FOSS is not a commercial entity, but a non profit organization and ideological movement, it may not be sued.
Maybe it can be shut down, like scientology center and other deceiving cults around the world.

Enjoy using BSD. I'll got listening to the Bee Gees on my Gaytunes cassette player.

Tristan said...

I've been reading this blog with some amusement for a few weeks, and finally a post that I can wholeheartedly agree with. Bravo, Linux Hater.

As the Gnome people have been saying for years, picking sensible defaults and making choices for people doesn't hinder anyone (apart from uber-geeks), it just makes life easier.

Now if only we could apply this same thinking to the distribution space, the Linux world would become a much better place.

(N.B. if this post sounds sarcastic, it's not -- I'm deadly serious)

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry, I don't think I understand your rambling. You're migrating to OpenBSD because it's pure and uber, is that it?

Markus said...

"Why isn't there BSD hater's blog?"

Four reasons.

(1) Many of the problems in the Linux world will be valid for BSD as well. Take Xorg for example. Both Linux and BSD depend on it (or lets say "indirectly" if you want a "desktop" version. That of course includes KDE and Gnome since they depend on Xorg as well).

(2) You can not modularize BSD as much and as easy as a "Linux" system. This is in fact one of the very very few advantages Linux has. You take some good ideas together and create a new distribution. Sure, you will have a hard time to gain new people because they are lazy and tend to use the big established distributions. But this possibility still exists, it just requires a lot of work.

(3) There are not many Linux users compared to Windows users. But there are about 50 Linux users for 1 FreeBSD user. So the number of people that know FreeBSD is really really really miniscule. Which leads me to point 4

(4) With so few people using BSD*s and Linux attracting newbies much more likely (while unfortunately leaving behind the "powerusers") means that there is much more to hate in Linux world than in BSD. Not because BSD is so much better, but because noone is using BSD. ;)

Haos said...

"In the days as only the experienced and knowledged users cvs co-c-m-mi'ed their "desktop" - containign of the console+Emacs - we had a way better community."

And they werent forcing every living being around to "switch to Ubuntu koz its betta and kewl, while M$ suxxorz".

Yeah, i can second to that.

kiszony said...

IMO most of the people that use Linux are people that use it because it's free as in beer not free as in freedom. It's either because they can't afford MS or can't use pirated MS software.
Linux devs should concentrate on making the linux experience better for those people not concentrate on making it better for their stupid freetard religion.
And there's also one thing that I don't understand. Lusers want Linux to rule the world and become mainstream, on the other hand, they don't because Linux is supposed to be for "users enough intelligent to choose". So... make your choice, people!

Anonymous said...

Dude, you have one GOOD BLOG. I am so sick and tired of hearing all the lusers bragging about how cool it is to use a crap operating system because it is "cool".

There only one difference between Apple and FSF actually. The first hypes what it has. The second hypes about what it would have liked to have.

Anonymous said...

//This is their choice and god dammit it is their fucking right to make this choice to close up to the fuckers out there because they do not understand what Punk or Metal is about.//

A little unrequited Goth angst, have we?

Anonymous said...

//IMO most of the people that use Linux are people that use it because it's free as in beer not free as in freedom//

Please ... either explain what "free as in beer" means or stop using that retarded expression. Any beer I've ever drank came at some expense.

neus said...

Another "I love MAC" zeolatry post ... WAY TO GO MACTARDS - see i can make up idiotic words too!

I mean this started as a "good" blog with some quite good thoughts, now is just Mac propaganda.

You're even contradicting yourself ... you say the typical reaction of "freetards" against a negative opinion is to come and defend linux ... but look at the blog now, YOURE FUCKING DOING THE SAME WITH MAC. AHAH

I mean ... its such an irony that im literally laughing my ass off on the floor at this idiocracy.

You rant about "freetards" and their FOSS thinagajicky but you know where your precious Mac OS got its UNIX roots dont you ? BSD IS FUCKING FOSS YOU MACTARD!

I mean ... Mac OS constantly rapes FOSS software, be it the BSD stack, Webkit, Mach or CUPS, THEYRE ALL FOSS YOU FUCKING MACTARDS! AAAAAAAAAHAHAAH

MACTARDS MACTARDS MACTARDS SUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

Come say with me ... WOINK WOINK WOINK!

Anonymous said...

neus, linuxhater already posted something about Mac OS X using open source software in here. The difference between Mac OS X and Linux or *BSD is OS X just works, and the other pure open source systems doesn't.
Relax yourself.

Anonymous said...

"IMO most of the people that use Linux are people that use it because it's free as in beer not free as in freedom. It's either because they can't afford MS or can't use pirated MS software.
Linux devs should concentrate on making the linux experience better for those people not concentrate on making it better for their stupid freetard religion.
And there's also one thing that I don't understand. Lusers want Linux to rule the world and become mainstream, on the other hand, they don't because Linux is supposed to be for "users enough intelligent to choose". So... make your choice, people!"


one of the advantages of freedom is the freedom to disagree. just because people use the same OS doesn't mean they all agree. I know Mac users who hate Ipods and the other I* crazes with a passion. similarly, not all linux communities (or even people within a single community) agree on this subject and even then it isn't as black and white as you make it seem.

Anonymous said...

@anonymous: "Yet here is the funny one. Linux Standard Base is the core project merging it all.

Look, dickweed, if the LSB can get its shit together and actually "finish" what it started 7 years ago, you may have a point. But that doesn't look like it's anywhere near completion. So, thank you for playing...

You completely missed that too its not just Lamp why Linux is good in server. Its that commercial applications install very will for web server due to the Linux Standard Base."

It has nothing to do with LSB, it has to do with the LAMP server apps actively standardizing their own install points. LAMP server apps were popular before LSB was even a wet dream.

You percent is out way out. People running non IE web browsers tell us that. Its basically 30 percent of the market at this stage and growing. Might correctly the graphic Linuxhater to show the truth instead of creating a new myth

No, it's actually somewhere around 19% of the market, so LH isn't far off. Try to understand this: Downloading Firefox doesn't mean using Firefox. Plenty of people downloaded it to kick the tires, but it's not at all clear whether they're actually using it.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9106058

Anonymous said...

@anonymous: "Please ... either explain what "free as in beer" means or stop using that retarded expression. Any beer I've ever drank came at some expense."

Methinks you're focusing on the wrong details. If you want to blame anybody for that "retarded expression", go blame the original retard (Richard Stallman) who said,"Think free software, not free as in beer." He was drawing a distinction between software as religion versus a software as a commodity that is distributed au gratis. And, you see, the only reason that it's necessary to have this distinction is that freetards tend to confuse the term "free" solely with "freedom".

TArbex said...

Maybe Ubuntu is quite low on choices isn't it? There must be a whole set of choices so people don't get dependent of others choices but if you don't want to choose just grab a distro that don't let you. I don't really know Ubuntu but I can say that Sabayon is a quite limited distro when it come to choices and have a lot of stuff ready to go inside it. I just use gentoo that only install what I want the way I want even if it's a bit complicated. But I'm really good on IT so it's not a problem.

wingrunr21 said...

I find that sometimes open source software includes more "choices" simply because they can. For instance, on any given Linux machine there are about a dozen ways to browse the web. The new Songbird project is including a web browser in the media player. I ask why. Songbird, being based on Mozilla, is a sibling to Firefox. Why would you build full web browsing capability into a media player when that very player's cousin is considered to be one of the best browsers out there? It is a waste of time and resources. Loading web content, sure I can see that. Integrating with SHOUTcast or last.fm, awesome. Making it so I can browse ebay while creating my playlists, not so awesome. Open source software really needs to figure out that before they add feature bloat they need to get the core target of their software working in its proper manner.

Anonymous said...

i agree with linux hater. there are many ways to actually offer choice to give the people "freedom" and still offer a starting package that works. DE try to accomplish this but their constant obsession with adopting new packages and dropping old ones prevents any consistency between applications. linux is aiming at mainstream. that is the entire point of mobile market that linux is trying to penetrate. Make all the abstractions you want but make sure that atleast one configuration of that abstraction works (almost) flawlessly, consistently. Have 5 different package formats, to offer people choice, but make sure one format is supported by everyone so that an average user doesn't have to think about what to download when he hits the internet to find an application to be productive. Windows has .exe, OSX has .dmg, linux can have one too. ISVs that way can also provide one format and know that everyone in linux can install the format.
I also agree with another post by lh that said that developers should provide binaries. Upstream should provide binaries for atleast the mainstream architectures. That way tons of time fixing bugs in individual distros will be saved and more progress can be made. Tons of time can be saved by just compiling before you release. I am not saying stop providing source, just also provide binaries.

Jeff said...

Choice sucks.

I hate having to choose which car to buy. It's too friggin' confusing. I want one car, say, a Toyota Camry, and all other types of cars should just fuck off. They only confuse people. Cars are really complex, and having choice only creates driving chaos (and makes the roads more dangerous).

I just bought an HD TV. Boy, was it every confusing to have to choose between a Plasma, LCD, or Rear projection. I hated that. It was pure hellish chaos. It was hellishly confusing. And all the goddam brands - Vizio, Sharp, Sony, Toshiba, and on and on and on. That was horrible.

And having to choose what cereal to eat in the morning - don't even get me started. I just want to have my fucking breakfast, goddamit, and not be bothered with all these confusing choices. Breakfast and chaos just don't mix. My breakfast should "just work". Just give me goddam Cherrios and be done with it.

My wife hates choice too. She has to choose between shopping on Amazon or EBay or CraigsList. It's overwhelming for her - so fucking confusing. And buying clothes for our daughters - Gap, Kohls, Old Navy ... ugh - too many choices. There should be only one generic clothes for kids. Too many choices makes it too confusing for us hard working parents.

Choice is evil.

Choice is evil for computers too. Mac can fuck off, as can Linux. There should only be Windows Vista, and no goddam Server 2008, no XP, no "Professional". Everyone should just use Vista, and be done with it. Fuck special business editions, or Server oriented crap. Vista is absolutely perfect for EVERYTHING!. And all the computer brands - Keep Dell, and get rid of all the rest those fucking idiots- HP, Lenovo, Acer, Gateway, ASUS - they can all go to hell, and they're duplication of effort. There's just too much chaos in the market - what fucking computer do you buy??? And I want only one goddam graphics card - just pick Nvidia or ATI, and be done with - otherwise, having the choice just fucks up your video, right?

Fuck choice, especially all that fucking choice in the Linux world.

People are just too fucking stupid to handle choice, right LinuxHater???

Anonymous said...

I choose to ignore jeff personally, because he's a cock

Jeff said...

But don't you hate choice?

Having to choose which DE to use? Forget it.

Clearly, my previous post was tongue in cheek.

But hopefully, it pointed out the ridiculousness of the stance of "choice only confuses computer users". That idea is actually quite condescending to so called "regular users". It's demeaning to their intelligence.

People actually love choice. I loved researching Plasma, LCD, rear projection, and comparing Sharps to Vizios, and so on.

But people are sort of conditioned to fear choice in computers, and the software they use. Having to choose which desktop environment to use? Too confusing. Having to choose which media player to use. Too confusing.

So called "regular users" should not be conditioned to fear their computers. They can handle it. If they can handle the dizzying array of cell phones, and cell phone options, they can handle the choice of OS, DE, or media player.

That said, of course a bit of standardization in the Linux world is long over due, particularly with internal platform bits - the kernel, glibc, GTK libs, shells, filesystems, and so on. There needs to be a solid, reliable core for ISVs and OEMs to target.

neus said...

neus, linuxhater already posted something about Mac OS X using open source software in here. The difference between Mac OS X and Linux or *BSD is OS X just works, and the other pure open source systems doesn't.
Relax yourself.


Have you EVEN used Mac OS ? Good luck trying to use and/or develop Java in that thing ... And dont even get me started on monitor support, i have had a dual monitor setup for years on Windows, even on Linux - with its crapstatic dual head support - have been running flawlessy. Then i tried, i say tried, to use a second monitor on my iBook and godmaned .. it refused to even show up a fucking picture.

Maybe it was my monitor but if Mac OS is the "just works" utopia everybody tries to sell, why didnt it just FUCKING work ?

And ditto for the fiber adapter ... i had to buy a damn adapter made by Apple, cause god forbid if we use hardware from other manufacturers, just to access the network.

Even my Lexmark printer wich was, suposedly made for Mac OS, fails to properly work.

And dont even remeber me the PPC->x86 transition days, when 90% of Fink rep didnt work in x86 and i had to fscking port every lib myself just to get some work done.

So just fucking quit that "it just works" bulllshit, that only happens in the fairy world of "Made By Apple".

Fucking MACTARDS ... Maybe i just should go and create a Mac OS Haters Blog and spew crap from my rectum and watch in glee all the mactards getting pissed of whatever i say that is not in the Bible of Steve Blowjobs.

MACTARDS .... SUUUUUEYYYYYYYYYYYYY

OINK OINK OINK ...

Anonymous said...

Time for Linux to die. All Linux hackers should go help ReactOS instead, the Free Opensource Windows. No more writing 3D video card driver. Just use the one release on Windows. Total compatibility with Windows (once completed). Easy to use. Familar to the new users. ReactOS is the future for Open Source. Linux is teh fail. Epic failure.

Bodhibuilder said...

Neus: I'd like to see MAC OS Haters blog
Fairy (Eric Idle): And so you shall:

http://www.applehaters.com/

Anonymous said...

Jeff's examples fails. If you were to choose any random product out of his examples all of them would still fulfill their broader purpose. IE, if you pick any random car you can still get from point A to point B. If you pick any random cereal you still get your breakfast. This is not the case for picking software or Linux distros.

Anonymous said...

@Jeff: "Choice sucks. I hate having to choose which car to buy. It's too friggin' confusing. I want one car, say, a Toyota Camry, and all other types of cars should just fuck off. They only confuse people. Cars are really complex, and having choice only creates driving chaos (and makes the roads more dangerous)."

What a douche. The reason that choice is an issue is that consumers REALLY don't know what the fuck to buy. They know the "prestige brands" (eg. BWM, Sony, Jaguar, Apple, IBM, etc), but it's really about brand association, not really understanding the underlying technology that each brand offers. So, they go with a brand that they feel familiar with (eg. Toyota Camry), something that their friends buy, something that a relative that they trust recommended to them, etc. Ask anybody about the engine in their car, or what features are present in their TV, and you'll get a blank, dumb stare. They just don't FUCKING KNOW or CARE. It all becomes a marketing game. Once they pick the brand, the dealer or manufacturer has already prepackaged everything that they would want into varying tiered packages; if they want more granular detail, the dealer tells them that they're going to have to pay through the nose to get that kind of choice, so few people do.

Now, let's move on to the subject of choosing a computer. Same deal. People don't know what they're getting. They don't know how to translate any of the technical specifications into "I want to play a movie" or "I want to download music" or "I want to play a game". It's all about brand recognition and pre-configuration. When it really comes right down to it, unless you're building your own computer, you're really not getting a whole lot of choice, even if you get to pick some of the components. You can't arbitrarily mix and match processors, memory, and hard disk space. And Dell doesn't even support Linux on most of its notebooks, so choice is really kind of illusory, because most customers don't have the time or inclination to figure out how to translate choices into the tangible tasks they want to perform. So, they buy the prepackaged product, and they just make it work for them. They don't fret or whine or wring their hands about it ("Oh! The lack of freedom, it burrrrrrrrrrnsssss..."

Desktop Linux doesn't have a prayer. There isn't any brand recognition (Ubuntu? WTF? Sounds like a Swahili for "monkeys fucking"), and, again, no way to correlate specs with intended actions ("Where the fuck is my MP3 player?!? They didn't include one?!? WTH is DRM? Oh, fuck, those dumbaseesssss!").

Here are some possible marketing slogans...

Linux. Designed By Geeks. For Geeks. TM

Linux: $0
Your Time: Worthless TM


Who Needs to Get Laid When You've Got Linux? TM

Linux. For People With Too Much Time on their Hands TM

Anonymous said...

"Fucking MACTARDS ... Maybe i just should go and create a Mac OS Haters Blog and spew crap from my rectum and watch in glee all the mactards getting pissed of whatever i say that is not in the Bible of Steve Blowjobs.

MACTARDS .... SUUUUUEYYYYYYYYYYYYY

OINK OINK OINK ..."


someone's pretty butthurt

Anonymous said...

Jeff, is it true that you're a cock? How do you type? Breathe?

neus said...

@Bodhibuilder

Crap ... came too late then :(

@Anonymous sheep

Actually there are many more people butthurt and they're pretty easy to find!

To ease your life, here are some coordinates/map were you can find all sorts of bum raped - or butthurt as you put it - people.

http://www.freemacblog.com/applestores/

Thank you, come again!

Anonymous said...

This is my last comment on LH:

@LinuxHater :

I like it that you bring the people to hate GNU and/or Linux.
The smaller the number of Linux users will be in the future the better the community will become.

Thank you for spreading the hate for Linux into the minds of many, many people. Seriously, I am _not_ kidding here. Thanks and go on.

Spread more hate, more aggressive thinking against Free Software.

We do not need all those gay bastards who just leech Ubuntu using some torrent client without giving something back to the community.


Great ! *Thumbs up*

Alexei said...

>> I'm sorry, I don't think I understand your rambling. You're migrating to OpenBSD because it's pure and uber, is that it?

That's how I got it, too. Linux is not 1337 enough these days, I guess. And we are not amused anymore.

Wiping a perfectly working OS (his Linux works like charm, I expect no less) just to do some gymnastics installing another OS. Because of some text that appears on his screen as he browses to certain forums. Rrright, what a great way to spend your time.

Anonymous said...

To anonymous above: I agree. The fewer of you lusers there are to give one another mindfuck handjobs, the better.

Alexei said...

>> The smaller the number of Linux users will be in the future the better the community will become.

Hooza! Racial purity, man!

Anonymous said...

"(Ubuntu? WTF? Sounds like a Swahili for "monkeys fucking")"


Oh man, I'm glad I finished my Dr Pepper 5 seconds before reading that XD


"Spread more hate, more aggressive thinking against Free Software."

I see it more as constructive criticism and a call for the oss community at large to get their heads back in the sunshine

"We do not need all those gay bastards who just leech Ubuntu using some torrent client without giving something back to the community."

Oh, you mean people like me, to whome code is, well, code. How exactly are us poor unwashed non-developer geeks supposed to contribute to the community?

Especially when all you elitist pricks are so high and mighty that if you ever fell off your egos you'd break your necks.

Just hit the paypal donation button, toss the poor devels a few ducats, and STFU, right?

Bodhibuilder said...

Anonymous said...
This is my last comment on LH

Last anonymous comment on LH? I wish

Alexei said...

>> Oh, you mean people like me, to whome code is, well, code. How exactly are us poor unwashed non-developer geeks supposed to contribute to the community?

I can add to that - even if you know your way around #include, it takes A LOT of time and effort just to set up your debugging environment (not everyone uses Gentoo, see). I'm not even talking about actually understanding what the code does.

Imagine this: I have some experience with database software, some OpenGL experience and wrote a couple of Maya plugins (a long time ago), so how do I deal with clicks in my audio? Begin to educate myself? How much time would you estimate I'd need to pinpoint an issue in my ALSA/Pulse/whatever??

And why on Earth would I want to spend all this time with somebody else's code when I have my own code to play with? On a system that simply plays my mp3s, no debugging required.

.net jerkface said...

Someone mentioned BSD earlier, which is a testament to how pathetic Linux has really been.
Since around '99 hundreds of millions have been dumped into to Linux from corps like Novell and Red Hat, and yet there is no performance difference between a LAMP stack and BSD stack. From what I have seen a BSD stack is more reliable.

So Linus, what is your reasoning behind having an unstable abi again? Where are the fruits of this philosophy? Linux doesn't even dominate PDAs where in theory it should have the advantage.

If BSD were the defacto free unix then at least there would be a standard base and millions of man hours would not have been wasted recompiling software for depositories.

But Linus continues on with his separate kernel development / unstable abi model and ignores the needs of ISVs and hardware makers. Because at the end of the day he really could give a shit about them, and he would probably care less if only him and 10 other star-trek nerds used Linux.

Microsoft really lucked out with Linus. He has killed off the commercial unix market for them and has made linux completely unappealing to hardware and software companies.

They should reward him with a check.

Anonymous said...

@alexei: "And why on Earth would I want to spend all this time with somebody else's code when I have my own code to play with? On a system that simply plays my mp3s, no debugging required."

That's why people just shell out their $50-100, and use Windows or Mac OSX. Is it really because our time is more valuable than anybody elses? No, we just prefer to spend it on things other than debugging other peoples' code. Are we simply stupid sheep who want to Pay The Man? No, I value my money -- I'd rather put it in my kids' college funds than pay Microsoft or Apple, but go back to my original point about time and you have the answer. My time is just too valuable to waste fucking around in code that I don't care about. Maybe, if I were a hobbyist and I actually cared, but I'm not, and I don't. I'm a professional developer, and the last thing that I want to do after coding for, like, 10 hours at work, is to come home and fuck around with some luser's code.

Anonymous said...

@.netjerkface

Fortunately, Microsoft doesn't need to pay Linus to maintain his current path of stupidity: He's doing it all on his own, basically giving a big FUCK YOU salute to IHVs and ISVs, and guaranteeing that they have trouble maintaining binary compatibility between kernel versions. You can't buy this kind of incompetence. It's like manna from heaven.

Alexei said...

>> That's why people just shell out their $50-100, and use Windows or Mac OSX.
. . .

Exactly. That is precisely what I mean.

Anonymous said...

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/706950

Yozuki said...

The main problem I see with choices is the users who don't know what these choices represent and if they coincide with what they want. I'm currently running 15 flavors of Linux in VMware as a result. The distro that is king of choices, has left me the most confused of all of them.

On another note, I like the 'my statement is valid, your highlighted statements are not' arguments going around.

Vedejas said...

Are you saying that people would rather pay not to choose? That's beyond the point, on the Desktop we all know there is a starting point for Linux, and that's Ubuntu. In reality, people don't need to choose, and Linux is nice because people can choose if they want to. Still, Ubuntu with default Applications is pretty default. It might not be as default as Windows is today, but that could change. And I do think people want to choose what they put their money into; if people were aware of the option, they probably would choose not to spend their money on Windows/OSX.

.net jerkface said...


And I do think people want to choose what they put their money into; if people were aware of the option, they probably would choose not to spend their money on Windows/OSX.


Very few people would choose to save $50 (what vista costs after crapware subsidies) to learn a new OS that isn't used in the business world and has major hardware/software compatibility issues. Most people have no problem spending $50 on a dinner and a movie, let alone an OS.
Even at the OEM price of $100 the cost is insignificant, especially when spread over the lifetime of the OS. The savings would have to be closer to $300 to see a market shift.

Thank god Vista is cheap since I hate Linux and would like to see it collapse on itself and be replaced with something like Haiku.

Anonymous said...

No stable ABI and not even a stable API in the Linux Kernel is dumb, simply and completely dumb. Torvalds might be a good coder, but as an engineer, he is hopeless...

Torvalds declared that the OS (among them Linux) should be invisible from the user's POV.
Newsflash Linus: with less than 1% market share on the Desktop, you can honestly claim "Mission Accomplished" as far as Linux is concerned.

Joseph Smidt said...

Linux Hater-

Though you hate Linux, I hope you know this blog is one of the best things that could be happening to Linux.

Most people who hate something want it to die or go away. This blog will make Linux better and even more likely to be around wherever you go.

I say keep up you hate, it's great for Linux. Soon you'll be know as the "Linux Helper".

blackbelt_jones said...

And yet somehow Linux does work for millions of users, even though you have scientifically proven that it shouldn't. It must be black magic.

I want to encourage you in this blog, because I'm pretty sure that if not for an accident of birth, you'd be posting on a white supremacy blog, and cooking up mathematical formulas to "prove" your ideas of racial purity. I think we can all be grateful you found a relatively harmless paranoid obsession. Keep it up.

Anonymous said...

@blackbeltjones: "And yet somehow Linux does work for millions of servers, even though you have scientifically proven that it shouldn't. It must be black magic."

There. Fixed it for you.

blackbelt_jones said...

"The Linux Hater's Blog" Astroturf? or Asperger's?

It's got to be one or the other. Considering the work that goes into your little manifestos, either someone is paying you to do this, or you don't have what most of us (even Linux users) would consider "a normal social life".

"Obsession with providing choice it every level actively works against efforts that would otherwise push Linux to provide what the mainstream wants."

DING DING DING DING! GOOD NEWS! Turns out most people don't use Linux. Victory is thine! At last, the world is safe from the unmainstream. The Nobel Comittee left a message, they've decided to create a Nobel Prize in "Blogging".

Just one more thing I want to say, Mr. Linux Hater:

You light up my life.
You give me hope
to carry on
you light up my day
and fill my nights...

with song!

blackbelt_jones said...

I myself am 100 percent desktop. So I guess it's millions of servers and one desktop. I must be a very very lucky fellow.

vedejas said...

Blackbelt: I wouldn't be surprised to find out Microsoft is paying him. I mean, it would be like them; http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS.html

blackbelt_jones said...

What I'm trying to figure out is if Linux on the desktop simply doesn't work, why spend so much time talking about it? Why the obsession with something that, in the real world, doesn't even exist?

vedejas said...

Blackbelt: I wouldn't be surprised to find out Microsoft is paying him. I mean, it would be like them; http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS.html


Really? Don't you think Microsoft could afford something better?

Anonymous said...

Linux internal kernel ABI is unstable for good reasons.

1) Linux kernel design is not set in stone and is being improved.

2) Security system exists in kernel space being able to audit everything in there at the source level is wise.

Its simply that you are all secuirty idiots. Drivers in the same space as your secuirty system able to reach across and mess with your secuirty system opens up secuirty holes. Remember even Microsoft wants so see the source of your driver before they sign it to operate in kernel space.

Sorry asking for a constant Linux driver ABI in kernel space will not happen.

Yet Linux Kernel UserSpace ABI is very stable. For good reasons.

So Linux kernels can be upgraded without upsetting already installed applications.

There is that most people don't notice a stable driver API created in the User Space section of Linux particularly for closed source drivers. Since its in userspace secuirty can controls can be wrapped about it and it cannot simple bypass the secuirty.

Basically Linux not having a stable Driver ABI is a myth. Linux just does not have a Stable Driver ABI where its a secuirty risk.

If they complain about performance from being locked to user space they can always go work on http://www.yl.is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~tosh/kml/ What is a application auditing system for running in kernel space using the user space ABI that is stable.

Linux is turning into a hybred. Monolithic/Microkernel. Monolithic for open source and audit able drivers. Microkernel for closed source drivers.

With kml its also a hybrid kernel as well.

Stabilisation of the upper API's into a constant ABI is the job of the Linux Standard Base. Yet one of there side project is a driver back port system.

All the bits you complain about are being worked on. Lot of lies to down right myths are spread about linux. About time you all start unlearning them.

Abel Cheung said...

@tristan:

As the Gnome people have been saying for years, picking sensible defaults and making choices for people doesn't hinder anyone (apart from uber-geeks), it just makes life easier.

If you really trust developers do always make sensible defaults. Still remember that they made spatial mode by default for Nautilus, and treating everybody opposing this feature as betrayers, denouncing their blasphemy of GNOME desktop and developers? How long did they take to secretly admit that it was failure without saying anything to public?