Uncle Sam Rolls In a 100-MPG Solar Plug-In Hybrid
Tony Markel drives a plug-in hybrid that runs 50 miles per charge, goes 100 miles per gallon and gets power from the sun. If he has his way, you'll drive one too before long.
His 2006 Prius has a lithium-ion battery six times more powerful than the nickel-metal hydride pack Toyota put in it. But what makes the car really cool is the solar panel on the roof. It generates enough juice to go 5 miles.
Markel is a senior engineer at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory. He and his colleagues have been experimenting with the car for about a year in a quest to make lithium-ion batteries cheaper and more durable. "Those are the barriers -- battery cost and battery life," he says. "That's the main thing holding the technology back."
The way he sees it, though, the barriers won't stand much longer.
Automakers are chipping away at those barriers as well, and the lab hopes its research hastens the day when electricity supplants petroleum in our cars. "The landscape is changing quickly," he says, with plug-in hybrids and electric cars from General Motors, Toyota and Nissan looming on the horizon as early as 2010. They're all working with the leading battery makers to perfect the technology, and lab is working with battery maker A123Systems to bring improved thermal management to lithium-ion batteries.
The lab, known formally as the U.S. Department of Energy's National Renewable Energy Laboratory, started working with Detroit on hybrids in 1994. Honda and Toyota beat them to the showroom, but DOE says even those vehicles benefited from its research. The lab started experimenting with lithium-ion batteries four years ago; last year it had Energy CS convert a Prius to a plug-in drivetrain at a cost of $40,000. (Another from HyMotion is on the way.) The car's got a 9 kilowatt hour li-ion battery and a rooftop solar panel that generates 165 watts.
"The vehicle is a research platform," Markel says. Much of the work has focused on improving thermal management of the battery and minimizing the losses in efficiency and energy capacity that occur as li-ion batteries age. The challenge, Markel says, is developing a battery that'll last as long as the car it's energizing. That's a tall order, given the lifespan of a car is about 15 years.
The lab also is exploring vehicle-to-grid charging -- the idea that plug-in hybrids charged at night, when electricity demand is low, can return some of that power to the grid during the day. Although utilities like Pacific Gas & Electric are interested in V2G, "that's research that's outside the scope of what the auto industry is doing," Markel says.
Markel says the car will go 50 miles on a charge, which is more than adequate because 78 percent of Americans drive 40 miles or less each day. Befitting the lab's name, the car is charged at a solar charging station. Ask Markel when he last filled the tank and he needs a second to remember. "A couple of weeks ago," he says. "It's a pretty rare event."
Photos: National Renewable Energy Laboratory
InsightDriver --
I drive a Jetta TDI the same amount of miles a year and I only fill up once a month maybe. I really wish we could get some deisel hybrids running on biodiesel on the road. Can't wait for the Golf Hybrid from VW! :D
Any chance that interstate highways could be built to provide energy to cars (or get energy from cars when they brake) by building limited access highways like slot-car tracks? (http://www.oakridgehobbies.com/slot_cars/hoslot_pages/ho_tycotrack.html)
@Insight and CW - All the guy said is he LAST put gas in it two weeks ago. That isn't necessarily how OFTEN he puts gas in it. He's getting 100 mpg, after all.
C'mon... but the Insight is just plain butt ugly.
Who wants to go into business with me? Here is the concept...open a parking garage with a Solar Panel Array and charging stations for plug-in cars, letting customers charge their cars without having to add to their utility bills.
Who wants to go into business with ME.
Here's the concept. Windmills on top of the billion lamposts in each and every city. You plug into the parking meter. Pay for parking and electricity for your recharge. Most lamposts are solid enough to handle a couple small solar panels. BONUS :>
No more pigeons pooping on you from above.
>It generates enough juice to go 5 miles.
Every hour? Every day? Every week?
I'm guessing the solar panel generates something like 1.5-2 kilowatt hours per day, giving you about 5 miles of free travel every day. The article doesn't make it clear if that's the case though.
I heard from a Ford researcher in CA that they were looking to build a V2G system. Alas, we did not have the tech for them.
InsightDriver - Have you seen the Penn & Teller episode where the moral was essentially: 'Facts don't lie - people do'?
Given those figures, you're barely eeking out 45 mpg.
I get 35 in my 10-year old Corolla.
I know you paid two (three? four?) times what I paid for mine, but there's no reason to try to delude yourself into thinking you're doing better than a solar-powered plug-in hybrid.
I hate it when people do something that looks green but isn't at all. A solar panel on the roof sounds cool, but what happens to the power that panel generates when the battery isn't low?
It gets thrown away, that's what. Wasted, unless the vehicle is plugged in to a grid-tie which could feed it back for others to use. Which I really doubt.
And since you don't want the batteries to be low, and you plug in the vehicle for a charge when you can so you can be an electric car (which is greener than a gas car), the solar panel only works when you're driving on a sunny day, and for a while after you park. And it's not tilted to the sun, making it less efficient than a ground-mounted one.
That's a very small amount of usage. So low in fact, that it will take many years before that panel generates more energy than it took to make it. Coal-fired, grid energy, usually.
Sigh.
Altairnano technology has already solved the overheating problem of lithium-ion batteries. At 440 volt charging can be fully charged in 10 min. or charged over night at 120 volt. estimated life of battery is 20 years. They estimate 150 to 200 miles per charge at a cost of $3.50 per charge. Check out their web sight
Of course there's the guy who has to say "Yeah well it sounds ok, but it actually sucks." Thanks.
I have been saying this for 20 years: All future electric cars will have standardized battery packs each weighing 50lbs or less (a given car may have 2-20 of them). Everywhere will be charging stations. Pull up, swap the battery packs, pay $2/pack or whatever and on your way on 2-5 minutes. You don't own the packs (like propane takes are now). This is such a "duh", I still can't believe no on is promoting it. After we get past the VHS/BETA my battery pack is better than yours B.S., we can get to building and selling these things.
Scott
@staggart - Shai Agassi
all - the key thing about InsightDriver and CW is that they drive 15 miles a day on average - using maybe 125 gallons of gas per year
@David - agreed - I just traded my beloved manual transmission '94 corolla wagon (29 to 30 mpg) plus a pile of cash for a slightly used '08 camry - which gets maybe 40mpg on average for my commute. i may never "pay back" the impact.
Good luck in Seattle. With the solar that is.
cant we think of a way to totally get rid of the greedy rich and the oil tycoons and the tax hogs or will we have to wait till they can figure out how to sell battery futures on wall street???
@Brad: Remember that the "L" in NREL is for Laboratory. The whole point of this is research and demonstration. It's a proof of concept, not mass production.
So what happens when all these batteries need to be thrown out?
Insightdriver...there is not much point to spending money on a car just to get great gas mileage if you only drive 5500 miles a year. I'm 3 weeks away from hitting one year with my 2008 xB (22/28) and I've only got 4600 miles on it. In fact, I only fill up every other week, and that's with the tank still 1/3 full. On the other hand, if minimizing carbon footprint and other smog emissions is the key, then the Prius can do little wrong, especially if it's a plug-in. Ultimately I think this is where we're headed, if California, Arizona, Washington and Oregon move together to severely restrict emissions.
I like how the wonks at the NREL simply assume that the real obstacle between widespread use of plug-in hybrids or fully electric cars is simply the battery. Where is the fucking power going to come from? Let's be realistic-- solar isn't going to provide any meaningful amounts of power for many, many years (probably decades) so these plug-in cars will simply delay the decommissioning of coal-fired plants. Read a little outside of Wired and you will be surprised to learn that there is concern that with the high fuel oil prices that the electrical grid in the NE might falter if we have a cold winter as many people will simply be forced to switch to electric space heaters to stay warm.
These goddamned eggheads are simply looking for ways to keep the automotive fiesta going, rather than telling the hard truth that we'll be doing a lot less driving in the future.
Brad,
What? The sun is going to run out of energy if we don't store all it's sending to our solar panel? Sure it's not the most efficient use of a panel, but it still beats not using one. And new advances in panel design should make it possible to get about 3-4x that much energy a day... off the whole surface of the vehicle.
Sean - The battery *is* the real obstacle holding back electric cars. The only way "green" will really make it into the mainstream is if it saves people money. There is a limited number of people who can be persuaded to buy products that are "greener" when there is a massive premium. You don't sell an electric car by saying "save the planet," you sell it buy saying "save money." Electric cars will only be a small niche until they are economical for the masses.
Even without the progress that we're making towards renewable sources of electricity, electric cars are still better for the environment than ICEs. The real obstacle is getting enough of them on the roads to reduce the amount of gas we're burning.
Howard-- you missed my point entirely. Where is the electricity going to come from? Nukes are probably the only realistic option and those are probably *decades* away given the NIMBY climate in this country.
The article says "78 percent of Americans drive 40 miles or less each day," but I don't see that in the link, which only refers to commuting and doesn't give that number. (Or did I miss something?)
As for some of the comments, note that electric cars can be charged off the grid at non-peak times (night), and even if the energy comes from coal-powered plants, it's more efficient to run a car on electricity than gasoline. An electric also benefits from any improvements in the cleanliness or sustainability of the power generating facility.
Sean, I think we'll need - and see - a combination of fewer vehicle miles (through less travel, less travel by car and more shared rides), much more efficient vehicles, and alternative energy sources. Car batteries may in fact be the way intermittent power sources like sun and wind are stored. The fact that nukes are a decade or more away means that wind power, which is already cheaper and much quicker to deploy, and solar, which is rapidly becoming competitive, are likely to be better options. It would take roughly a 100-mile-square of solar collectors to provide all the electricity we currently use in the U.S. Again, storage is an issue, and that underscores why batteries matter a lot, although there are other solutions, including flywheels, molten salt and a smarter grid.
Howard, I'm with you on the necessity for consumers to be able to save money on greener products. What a great world it would be if the right choice was always the least expensive choice. That's why I think it's essential that we the public/government apply the appropriate economic incentives if the so-called free market does not do so. The incentives should be commensurate with the public benefits. Granted, our governments tend to be poor at doing this - unless we're paying attention.
Hydrogen
Home Filling Stations
OnBoard Fuel Generator
Advantages:
Use Existing Combustion Engines
Zero Admissions
Flex Fuel (Hydrogen,Propane,Natural Gas or Gasoline) Taking advantage of Existing and Future infastructure.
If we lived closer to work and play it wouldn't matter what the mpg was. Change city ordinances so that multi-use properties (ie. commercial, living and light industry) coexist and beef up public transportation (run on electricity) and we'd only need to use our cars once every 2 weeks if at all.
@PH.
Hydrogen= Less efficient
No infrustructure
Same tech as electric but more expensive
theres a tons of reasons why electric vehicles>hydrogren vehicles.
It's not just that automarkers who are developing battery technology. In fact I think their developments in them are fairly small. Modern mobile phones (which the US is a bit behind on compared to northern Europe, Japan etc) almost always carry a lithium-ion battery. They are mobile, so demand light weight and small. They are increasingly technical (colour screen, bluetooth, internet access, games, better CPU's) and therefore need higher powered battery's. I think they are a core reason for the development of lithium-ion battery's.
The notion that the roof generates enough electricity to go 5 miles isn't really telling us that much. The general public would want to know how long it takes to get to that charge and the technical people (Wired readers!?) would like to know the peak output of the PV array, perhaps who made it?
Its great to see competition and incentives to do in the battery space. I've been following eestor and zenn motor which in relation to this prius is basically battery vs ultracap, lithium ion vs barium titanate. Some have said litium ion is too scarce a substance to base a mass produced battery on...but I've never examined the basis of that. I will continue to track eestor here:
http:bariumtitanate.blogspot.com
Sounds all nice an dandy but have you all read about the "air" generated car they are getting ready to turn out overseas? Now how much cleaner can you get and it runs on an air generator. They are currently working on a system where you don't need to hook it up but it will automatically generate it's own air for power. Where are our engineers on this one huh?
Liz writes: "So what happens when all these batteries need to be thrown out?"
Prius Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) batteries get recycled, melted down, and made into stainless steel or new batteries.
See: www.toyota.co.jp/en/environment/recycle/battery/index.html
Toyota offers a $200 cash bounty on old hybrid batteries. That's a safe bet on their part since there's over 50 pounds of nickel in a Prius battery, refined nickel is worth more than $10 a pound at the moment, and it's likely to be worth a lot more than that in 16 years or so when the batteries need replacing.
NiMH batteries are not very toxic if they are thrown out, but that would be a waste because the nickel in an old battery is valuable. Also, throwing out an old battery would mean more nickel would have to be mined and refined to make a new battery. Note that NiMH batteries are different from NiCad batteries. NiCads contain Cadmium. NiMH batteries do NOT contain cadmium.
Lithium-Ion (Li-Ion) batteries are even less toxic than NiMH.
Do you start the engine of your vehicle with a hand crank? If not, there's a large, heavy, lead-acid battery under the hood of your vehicle. Lead-acid batteries used with ordinary gasoline or diesel engines are far more toxic than either NiMH or Li-Ion. The lead-acid battery in an ordinary car is used for a few seconds now and then to start the engine. The rest of the time, it's just a deadweight being hauled around. Once the engine is running, the alternator provides power for ignition, lights, etc. The starter motor itself is also a deadweight being hauled around doing nothing useful most of the time. In a hybrid, a higher quality, more efficient and reliable starter motor and battery are put to use assisting with propelling the vehicle and providing regenerative braking instead of being deadweights.
In the U.S. and the U.K., 90% of lead-acid batteries are recycled into new batteries after they wear out. Even the plastic cases are recycled into new battery cases. See www.epa.gov/msw/battery.htm and www.berr.gov.uk/files/file31761.pdf Some jurisdictions achieve 98% recycling rates. But 2% to 10% of lead-acid batteries are not recycled because the scrap value of a toxic lead-acid battery is less than $5 vs the $200 bounty on an old Prius battery.
Considering how toxic ordinary lead-acid car batteries are, it would make sense to replace sales taxes on them with large refundable deposits to encourage recycling. There should be clear notices on each battery advising of the refundable deposit available while warning of substantial fines for improper disposal. Interest earned by government on refundable deposits can offset loss of sales tax revenues.
Anyone who thinks going back to hand cranks would be a good idea should bear in mind that backfiring engines caused a lot of badly broken arms before electric starters were invented.
LT: Even air-powered cars require an electrical source of power to compress the air charge... nothing comes for free. Compressed air, battery, hydrogen - they all require an initial power source to generate them to be stored on the vehicle.
It boils down to cost and technology, and some on carbon footprint of energy source. The cheapest, most efficient source will make inroads into the market.
It's up to the government to have an energy policy to regulate how we generate power (clean coal, NG, nuclear), but the car buyer wants a good deal on a car that can get to grandma's house 500 miles away once in a while.
PHEV's do that, the newer hydrogen cars do that (but no filling stations near grandma's), air cars might get there and back if the onboard generator ran on gas or diesel.
It's all economics for the masses. Inexpensive wins - to buy, to maintain, to fillup, to insure...not carbon footprints of the upstream power source.
CyclingCommuter: GREAT POST on battery recycling. I will refer to it for future blogs.
"You don't own the packs (like propane takes are now)."
You mean those propane tanks they charge you $20 to exchange when you can just have one refilled for $10? Are those the ones you're talking about?
to the guy that says hydrogen is less efficient...try electrolyzing some water and ignite the bubbles that form. conventionally it may take some power to get the hydrogen, but there are everyday people that are trying high-voltage, low amperage, pulsed electricity to create the gas...and from what i've seen it's amazing. the only downside is safety, but given the right design (on demand creation of gas with small supplemental storage) it would be as safe or safer than gasoline.
i'm all for new technology, but we won't see anything economically feasible until the guys with all the money are ready to play ball (ie big oil and their cronies). kudos to government lab that isn't completely wasting our tax dollars!
Hey cycling, it' already got a battery in the car. Is the government going to subsidise me $50,000+ to build a car? This guy didn't come up with anything new and it sounds like another waste of money at the taxpayers expense.
staggart: "I have been saying this for 20 years: All future electric cars will have standardized battery packs each weighing 50lbs or less"
This concept has some good points, and some bad. I would like to hear more of your take on it. With a swappable pack infrastructure, we all pay the average for battery abuse. (think kids doing smoke shows). If you owned your batteries, you would probably take better care of them, or at least be responsible for your own stupidity. I also wonder if a battery swap system is cheaper than local PV charging stations, which can be forever increased on rooftops etc, is scalable and profitable for anyone who can come up with the initial investment. swappable packs would I think also increase the complexity, and cost of vehicles as well as add styling and shaping restrictions to the vehicles. styling is not so important to me, but shaping is. One big bonus I see with swappable pack infrastructure is a simplified, standardized means toward a smart grid with increased wind capacity.
Another thing just came to mind supporting the swappable pack idea. It would probably significantly decrease the number of out of energy cars stopped on the highways. Every tow truck (and helpful pickup truck drivers) could carry spare packs, like a can of gas. Again we are averaging the cost of the average American drivers stupidity to all drivers in terms of battery life.
As an aside, if eestor pulls the magic rabbit from the hat, a swappable pack system would be moot, wouldn't it, or would it? I think if supercaps come about, the battery swapping stations would now be just large capacitors to charge up individual cars in the same time as a swap. not holding my breath on that.
jeremiah
A 5 mile solar charge is really interesting. When I had a car there were plenty of days when all the driving I did was 2 miles to work, park it in the sun for 8 hours, and drive two miles home.
I wonder how many people have similar commutes?
Of course now I live in New York and just bike or ride the subway everywhere.
i cannot understand why the manufacturers are wasting time with this concept, when our technology is advanced beyond this. we already have the means to produce free energy. just go to youtube and type "magnetic motor" into the search. as for automobiles; see this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEfpGoYMdvQ
lonnie, try to find videos of clear verification of these magnetic motors power output. lots of folks have offered their services to them as well as to the water car scammers. no takers yet that i have seen.
How about this as a business concept?
In addition to taking power from the braking and giving energy to the battery, let's put a few windmills on top of the car and it can recharge at it drives :)
LOL
TONY STARK WAS ABLE TO BUILD THIS IN A CAVE!!! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!!!
Two things I find it interesting they never mention in 'green energy' articles.
First, being green is not just about driving it's about how we live as a society. Where you live, products you use, how you go about your daily business all has much more impact on the environment than a car.
Buildings use 60 percent of the energy in the US. That's many times more important than the 25 percent used by vehicles.
Second, the sum total of the benefits of hybrid cars is not just a reduction in gasoline usage.
For one it produces jobs, many here in the US, in different fields than just automotive. Batteries, Solar, etc... all will need to be produced. As we've seen in other industries this could lead to consumers buying these technologies not only for cars but for home and work as well.
And lastly a big benefit is a reduction in noise pollution. While most of the noise produced on the interstate is by the tires of cars, in city driving (where it has the most impact on people) will be close to silent. Imagine just how quiet it will be when hybrids really get rolling.
jeremiah...power output, in terms of amperage or watts, from the magnetic motor is irrelevant...built correctly, they have tremendous torque....use it to drive a generator....how much power do you want?...if you think our technology is limited to what you see here...you are sadly mistaken, as i have seen first hand, through a mechanical engineer friend of mine. seeing is believing. i have no doubts, as you will all learn, soon.
I made my own hybrid... I get four beaners to push my car around town.
CW: We don't have THAT MUCH biodiesel and likely never will.
Staggert: There's already cars with rent-out batteries.
PH: Hydrogen home filling stations? You can't get much less realistic than that. Idiot. No other word suffices.
Zrickety: Please, no conspiracy theories. And, it takes a hell of a lot more than "Some" energy to make hydrogen. Plus, you didn't address infrastructure issues. Go back to your drawing board.
Lonnie: Destroy your "free energy" video, then read P.T. Barnum's famous quote.
Doorknob, Wired should have an IQ test for posters or something.
"Buildings use 60 percent of the energy in the US. That's many times more important than the 25 percent used by vehicles."
by many times, you mean 2.4, right?
I've got a brand new civic and have to fill up every week. But I drive 15k miles a year, I'm afraid. At 100 MPG, I should only have to fill up every 3rd week.... I'll take it!
"you are sadly mistaken, as i have seen first hand, through a mechanical engineer friend of mine. seeing is believing. i have no doubts, as you will all learn, soon."
Jesus fucking christ. It's always the same thing out of you morons who buy into this free energy crap. Oh yeah, of course it will be here soon.
What else are they going to tell you? The truth? Of course not. Who wants to hear "well i haven't ever been able to put it into practical application and there's a good chance I've wasted a lot of time with this."
Seeing is believing? Really? If i pull a quarter from your ear you going to believe that too? Do yourself a favor, go to wikipedia and look a dude named Newton. He had this third rule of motion that shows us it's not "the man" keeping free energy from becoming a reality, it's a bastard called "friction".
The real problem is: the people who can't afford $5 a gallon gasoline is never going to afford a car at $15k let lone one at $40k. Most of these people only buy used cars. I know I'm one of them. Fixed income under $20k.
@LW... that figure is intriguing. Are you sure a square of 10 by 10 miles would cover all of the US electricity needs? Where are you getting this information?
LA has an area of about 0.00014 that of the US. So that means a square of less 400,000 sq feet would do if LA used the average energy. Granted, LA is a busy place, let's say 1,000,000 sq feet, that's LA using 2.5 times the average. By your numbers, a square of 1000 by 1000 feet will sustain LA? That can't be right.
Perhaps to Cycling Commuter, but a general question: The corollary to Liz' - How much in terms of resources and emissions and use of toxic materials (Nickel is not completely harmless) is involved in making the batteries for Hybrids? In thinking about this I got the sense that there is a lot of smelting, purification and shipping materials around the planet etc. that could be adding to resource usage when compared against the benefits of reducing the individual's load on resources.
I was going to go after lonnie for posting ignorance but vince beat me to it, and nailed it by the way. Just one thing man, lonnie is right, to people like him seeing is believing. To real scientist, cold hard numbers and scientific proof are needed. He'll probably believe you can pull money out of people's ears too, he already believes matter and energy can be created anyway. His friend is fictitious though, or one of the crappiest mechanical enigeers I can imagine.
A 2 Year Plan For a Hydrogen Vehicle Infrastructure:
If we wanted to quickly get to a hydrogen infrastructure this could be one key - fleet vehicles.
Fleet vehicles by their very nature are used in a limited geographic area. Think local utilities, taxi cab companies, fire and police departments, UPS or FedEx or even the US Post Office and many others.
I saw on the PBS show Scientific American that GM has been developing hydrogen vehicles. So GM could approach local fleet managers and offer them a sweet deal: GM will sell you purpose-built fleet vehicles at (or below) cost. AND while the vehicles are being built GM will get together with local gas stations and install hydrogen refueling facilities.
This will solve several problems. Because fleet vehicles don't leave their geographic area they will be near hydrogen refueling facilities. The general public will see via local media and their own eyes hydrogen powered vehicles on their streets and in their neighborhoods. Then they will know that if they bought a GM hydrogen powered car for themselves that it's save, dependable and refillable.
As large metropolitan areas start getting their hydrogen powered fleets and refilling stations going then the next logical step would be to install hydrogen refilling stations every so often along Interstate highways. This would be to support the occasional fleet vehicle that needed to travel out of their area but more importantly to encourage the general public to buy personal hydrogen fueled vehicles.
So, that's my plan to get a hydrogen infrastructure going within 2 years. Nothing new has to be invented. GM already has the research into the vehicles. Fuel firms have already installed hydrogen fueling facilities in California.
So, let's get going!
My fee: .005% :-)
Terry Thomas
Commercial Photographer
Atlanta, Georgia USA
http://TerryThomasPhotos.GooglePages.com
- Fact - hamburgers cause more pollution than all the SUV's in North America.
Personally, I can envision a day when a more enlightened western world moves away from its glutinous meat consumption (I mean really, what a waste, not to mention the horrendous cruelty involved), and exists on a higher methane producing diet of legumes and beans.
Every car and home comes equipped with methane collector panels, which harvest our gas and fuel our machinery and homes. In essence, Fart for your fuel - lol
perhaps not in that exact way and not likely in our lifetime 4 sure, but a more evolved mankind that ceases it's lust to feed on oceans of methane producing cattle, will be the beginning of a more eco friendly, sustainable world system.
However, until mankind awakens from its ruinous meat eating binge, which now fuels a disease fighting health care for profit system, instead of a far cheaper disease prevention system, the mesmerized burger loving masses will continue to choke down gobs of greezy flesh to their peril :-)
Ok Terry, and where is this hydrogen going to come from? Because producing hydrogen is a very energy intensive process. So unless you build a nuclear plant in 2 years that plan is dubious. And are you seriously stating that a hydrogen distribution infrastructure can be built in 2 years? Man! that's one of the big hurdles for hydrogen. Most experts agree it would take decades to do that. How exactly did you solved the distribution problem?
We should stop focusing on the tank-to-wheel part of the equation and start studying the entire well-to-wheel process.
alright, you guys win (vince, af, and jeremiah)...you are obviously far more intelligent than i am...i am so gullible...i fall hard for every illusion i see...especially, pulling a rabbit from a hat...that just amazes me...wish i could pull quarters from ears....i could use the extra cash...you'll have to tell me how to do that...also, my friend, gerald, maybe he is fictious...he's followed me around since chilhood...funny thing is, no one else can see him...the motor and generator experiment that he has set-up and operating in in his workshop must be an illusion...he know's how susceptible i am to ordinary parlor tricks...maybe he's just trying to get me to invest some of my vast wealth (my net worth must be somewhere around....oh, - negative $200,000)....but why should i use caution...throw it to the wind...after all, it's only an illusion...glad you guys straightened me out here...now, why don't you superior-minded bullies go beat-up on someone else...just remember this conversation.
ignorance is bliss!....glad i have more than my share!
Ok, I'll remember it lonnie. But you remember this too: there's always a guy somewhere setting up a perpetual motion machine, showing it to friends, newspapers, tv shows, etc. Some even get press time about it. And guess what? Laws of thermodynamics have remained victorious every time.
Playing the victim's emotions is not science man. Want to shut me up? Then show me where's the science backing this up and I'll be happy to shut up and even join the ranks of those promoting the idea. All I've gotten up to now is a youtube video reference. I'm not about to believe anything based on anecdotal evidence and a youtube video.
Beating up an idea is the way science works. You come up with a theory and other fellow scientists beat it up with all they have, if the theory stands, then it's good. So far, every single one of these free energy proponents have failed to stand even the slightest evidence requirements.
Once we understand what's behind this so-called "energy crisis", we can work to solve it.
First, watch this short Reuters news video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxfMz2eDME
Then read this article:
http://www.checktheevidence.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=182&Itemid=60
OR here
http://tinyurl.com/69ud7b
@lonnie... The amount of energy used in manufacturing a magnet is typically 10 times what the magnet is capable of producing. More expensive magnets
are even less efficient. Add to this the losses in energy incurred by
these 33%-66% concept magnet devices themselves (meaning the motor in question), and the energy consumed
in the overall manufacturing process is 20-25 times the energy you will
get out.
So now tell me lonnie. Did your mechanical engineer friend developed a new manufacturing process in which a magnet produces more energy than is needed to create it? Because magnets do run down you know. And if you invest 20 of anything to get 1 out... that's not a good investment.
Even if everyone who has a car switches to these, there still won't be a large enough effect to significantly curb global warming. In order to do that every American household electricity allotment would be enough for a water heater.
blitherer writes:
"it' already got a battery in the car."
"This guy didn't come up with anything new and it sounds like another waste of money at the taxpayers expense."
The original Prius traction battery has a 1.3 kWh NiMH capacity. With this battery, the vehicle can go less than 2 miles in electric-only mode if only 20% of battery capacity is used. The Prius control electronics automatically limit the state of charge of the NiMH battery to the 60% - 80% range in order to significantly extend its lifetime while retaining regenerative braking, electric-assisted acceleration and electric-only mode in slow traffic. The relationship between depth of discharge (DOD) and battery life is nonlinear for many batteries. 20% DOD was chosen by Toyota in order to achieve a battery life that closely matches the overall service life of a typical car. As the cost of gas goes up and the price of building/rebuilding batteries goes down, it may make sense to change the control computer software to allow a greater depth of battery discharge in order to save more gas even if that means shorter battery life.
In the experimental vehicle, the original 1.3 kWh NiMH traction has been replaced with a 9 kWh Lithium-Ion (Li-Ion) battery. This allows it to go a lot further in electric-only mode, which means less gas is required and less smog is produced. The larger battery capacity also increases the amount of kinetic energy that can be recovered while going down a long hill and the amount of car rooftop photovoltaic energy that can be stored.
The photovoltaic (solar) panel on the roof is useful because it saves gas by increasing the electric-only range. It also increases battery life by reducing depth of discharge. Even a small photovoltaic can prevent the battery of a parked car from being destroyed by complete discharge while the owner is away on an extended vacation. Even gas-only or diesel-only vehicles ahould have a photovoltaic panel built into the top of the dash for this reason. If a vehicle with a rooftop photovoltaic panel is parked in front of a somewhat reflective vertical surface (a large, south-facing window or white wall), that may significantly increase photovoltaic power output.
Research & Development (R&D) always costs money. Capital investment (including R&D and general education) is what separates western countries from impoverished, starving, violent, diseased, third world countries. Somalia has very low taxes. There isn't exactly a flood of people from western countries wanting to move to Somalia to take advantage of those low taxes.
It's important for both industy and government to do R&D because a responsible government is going to be interested in overall public safety while industry is largely driven by profit. Some auto companies have been driven by short term profits in selling gas-guzzlers while other companies have looked at long-term profits by developing efficient vehicles. Government needs to independently test new products in order to ensure they do what the manufacturer claims they do.
"Is the government going to subsidise me $50,000+ to build a car?"
I certainly hope not - not with MY tax money! I prefer to see my tax dollars going to knowledgeable and capable researchers with above average intelligence.
Who want to go into business with ME!
Dallas-
Here's the concept. Windmills on top of the billion lamposts in each and every city. You plug into the parking meter. Pay for parking and electricity for your recharge. Most lamposts are solid enough to handle a couple small solar panels. BONUS :>
No more pigeons pooping on you from above.
My idea? Whenever one of the windmill blades hits a pigeon a small robotic broom and dust pan come out and sweep it up, and dump it into a vat where it's made into biodiesel! For those pigeons to smart to get hit the broom robot will just collect up their poop and turn that into biodiesel.
Use Less writes:
"How much in terms of resources and emissions and use of toxic materials (Nickel is not completely harmless) is involved in making the batteries for Hybrids?"
Toyota says the energy/pollution payback point for the extra hybrid stuff arrives within about a year for the average driver. Where I live, about half the cabs are Priuses. They're driven 24 hours per day 7 days per week by multiple shifts of drivers. For them, the payback point arrives within weeks.
The energy and disruption required to melt down an old nickel-containing battery and make it into a new one is significantly less than that required to mine and smelt nickel ore. I don't have the figures for nickel, but recycling aluminum requires 95% less energy than mining and refining bauxite (aluminum ore) the first time around. The damage done by obtaining and refining oil is ongoing, and it gets worse as the easiest to refine oil runs out and we move toward offshore, tar sands, oil shale etc. as oil sources.
Stainless steel cooking pots, forks, knives, kitchen sinks, surgical instruments etc. contain up to 18% nickel. If you see "18-8" stamped on a cooking utensil or cutlery, that means it contains 18% nickel, 8% chromium, and the rest is mostly iron. "8-8" means 8% nickel, 8% chromium. Coins contain nickel. That's why a nickel is called...... a nickel. Quarters and dimes also contain nickel.
If you really believe nickel is highly toxic, I will give you a safe storage vessel (piggy bank) for your nickel-containing coins. When the storage vessel (piggy bank) contains several hundred dollars worth of those horrible, nickel-bearing coins - just let me know. I will don my HazMat suit, carefully pick up the piggy bank with special tongs, and transport the contents to a safe, long-term storage area (my bank account).
"...benefits of reducing the individual's load on resources."
I absolutely agree with the "use less" philosophy. That's why I moved closer to my job years ago. I mostly use a bike to get around. I carshare (see zipcar.com) and/or carpool the rest of the time.
Subsidized public transit is a multibillion dollar fraud, a scam - especially during offpeak hours. I often see massive, 15-ton articulated diesel buses driving around with one or two passengers aboard. How can that be environmentally-friendly? Late at night, I see these behemoths driving along their appointed routes at the appointed times with zero passengers on board! Cellphone-dispatched, 24-hour, door-to-door carpooling in a hybrid vehicle is much more efficient and convenient than public transit. My favourite carpooling website is pickuppal.com.
Where I live, people who sell their old homes and buy new homes closer to their jobs are hit with a massive "property transfer tax." This tax money is used to subsidize smelly, noisy, polluting, heavy, road-destroying diesel buses. The people who spend 4 hours a day travelling back and forth to work in these subsidized diesel buses instead of moving closer to their jobs have 4 hours per day less to raise their own children. So now they're demanding taxpayer-funded childcare. It looks like a trip into insanity until you realize that the politicians pushing this stupidity get campaign funding from bus drivers' unions and childcare centre unions.
1: pump air and tank with it your car. no costly and dangerous acumulators. no polution. cheap to retank everywhere. no new technolgoies without patents.
I think it's time to come to grip with the fact that most of the world doesn't beilieve in man-made catastrophic climate change. If it were real, the only solution would be to use our nuclear arsenal to bring the Earth's population down to about a billion. This world runs on hydro-carbons and all of the US could commit suicide and it wouldn't mean a thing. So, since we are not serious, maybe we should just stop acting like we can make a difference and just start using up all of that oil and coal in our ground. I'm all for technology that will save me money, but if it has to be subsidized, then it really isn't saving any money. When {and if} the prices come down, I'll be happy to put up solar panels and drive an electric car. We can't save the Earth. Gesters may make you feel good, but they are like a squirt of piss in the ocean. Just enjoy your life to the fullest.
"now, why don't you superior-minded bullies go beat-up on someone else...just remember this conversation."
Cause no one else is spewing out crazy crap without any shred of proof. I mean think about it, people are so willing to believe in something that would hold such great promise that it's almost impossible to cope with the idea that one single fact can destroy the entire concept. Entropy sucks, but it is what it is and there's nothing that can change that. But if you do, James Randi has a million dollars with your name on it.
Glad news indeed,but when will it hit Indian roads,developing countries need them most.
chris
---I think it's time to come to grip with the fact that most of the world doesn't beilieve in man-made catastrophic climate change
and i think you have proved to be the most retarted idiot on this earth.
THIS IS REALLY AMAZING! http://www.spymac.com/details/?2369508
THIS IS REALLY AMAZING! http://www.spymac.com/details/?2369508
I really think we all need more of these kind of cars, because the way the prices of fuel are going, hybrids and vehicles with alternative fuel will become a neccisity for people and envoirnment.
..................
mark osborn
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cadillac-Cts-Upper-Window-Chrome-trim-2003-2005-USA_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ46093QQihZ013QQitemZ230266149989
http://www.bangbull.com/details/1749-6F8/Krystal_Steal_at_Howard_Stern new sex scandal !
Wow dude, 100 MPG that is pretty darn impresive. Suure beats my 23MPG!
Cycling Commuter - thanks for the excellent post! I too was heading into attack mode for Lonnie's posting of profound ignorance, but kudos to Vince for beating us other tekkies to the punch! So many comments from Liberal Arts types on here... there should be billboards around the country that remind folks of the difference between Arts and Science! Personally, I was one of the FEW who bought an Insight in 2000, so you can work out the impact of its overall mileage of 70.5-mpg for the past 8+ years. You liberal arts types may need to get help with the math, but the savings has been HUGE. Meanwhile, the car is still performing pefectly and of course Honda stopped making them because Americans with all their reasons for NOT doing something right didn't buy them! I completely rebuilt my condo on Maui hauling stuff home in the Insight, for those who whine that it's too small. I did have to ask a friend to bring the dishwasher in his pickup, but that was the ONLY item that I couldn't haul. Oh, for the folks who whine that "it's butt ugly" (yeah, that's REALLY important) or "it's too small" or "what if it breaks" (duuuh - Hondas don't break)... I have 53,500 miles on the car and it used an average of 95 gallons of gas a YEAR. That's real. I can look at the records and smile, knowing for myself that where there's a WILL, there's a WAY. Meanwhile my 2008 Prius sits in the garage most of the time because it is a gas hog (50-mpg so far)! So keep whining, but for God's sake don't actually DO something. Keep up keeping down! And, incidentally, the Insight gets better mileage now that I'm on the mainland and can actually drive in 5th gear from time to time.
50 miles a day... are they nuts?? where they hell did they get that information? A majority of people I know commute an hour to work and last week I drove 1800 miles in 4 days
Look, there's not going to be a solution that doesn't have some downsides. We can argue til we're all blue in the face about what's the best way to solve these problems with the lowest impact on the environment, but the fact is that what's going to emerge as the winner is whatever will cost the least, generate the most profit for somebody, and create new problems that are deemed at least no more unacceptable or unsolvable than the old ones. The only way we're going to get even to that point is by letting people try anything they can think of and see what works out best all around, so kudos to Mr. Markel and others like him.
Wow. Aptera makes these guys look stupid. As RMI points out in their advanced vehicle program, focusing on the batteries is a bad idea, when you can just lighten the car and generate much more mpg savings per dollar. Better to redesign the platform from the ground up than to keep driving steel cars where the passenger is 5% or less of the total weight. Seems like another toilet to flush taxpayers' dollars down. Why not stop subsidizing all this stuff? The government has a horrible R&D record. They poorly manage research dollars and continually fund less than cutting edge work. This is not the same war-time government research program that gave us radar and nukes, nor even anything like DARPA. It's bureaucracy. The feds have repeatedly shown they don't do accountability well, so why not just tax the bad stuff - imported crude, coal, carbon, etc, and use the money to improve infrastructure and public transit? That would give the real, private sector innovators all the room they need to compete effectively and penalize the behavior we don't like. Let the VC's, private equity, and auto majors spend the R&D dollars to serve a proven market. This "research" makes me yawn.
For those of you who wrap yourselves up in the belief that the laws of Thermal dynamics and Physics are 100% absolute are clearly ignorant.
Science is an evolving thing and humans do not understand everything there is to know about the universe and its "laws".
So wake up and consider the possibility that so called free energy machines are merely getting energy from a previously untapped source.
Cycling Commuter - thanks for the come back. I wasn't saying Nickel was hugely toxic - just that it is not completely harmless - most of the items you mentioned do have Nickel bound up in an alloy and that renders a lot of metals inert toxicologically, classic example is mercury in a zinc amalgam alloy - safe enough to be used in dental fillings - causes a problem when people are cremated though!
Can't comment on why a nickel is called a nickel - I live in the Eurozone :) I recently changed my car too - went for a similar engine size but half the weight. I drive perhaps 30km per week as I moved closer to work. I fill/top up the car once every 6-8 weeks. I cycle three days a week and feel great in terms of using less than I did before moving so much so that I constantly try to find ways to "Use Less", in general. I think the mainstream focus on emissions deflects from other important environmental issues that actually can be changed very effectively at a more local level and that is a much more direct and powerful community message than the more global one as people actually see the change in front of their eyes.
I really like the fact that we're looking for ways to live with out fossil fuels.
For the most beautiful Blue Sapphires, Pink Sapphires, White Sapphires, Sapphire Rings (or any other kind of Sapphire Jewelry), check out http://www.TheNaturalSapphireCompany.com
We need to harness the power of pseudo-intellectual-internet-tough guys; this will enable us to wean ourselves from the Middle East oil teat. Science and art are one of the same my friend, Ric, it is close-minded, over-educated, ignorant people that see them as contradictory ideas.
THIS CAR IS REALLY AMAZING! http://www.spymac.com/details/?2367442
Hurr, please wipe the tears out of your eyes. 'Twas not my intention to play the iconoclast, I just wanted to liberate you from your insanity. It is seductive to think that when a group is focused on a problem, they can use the power of government to force a solution. This is an idea that has been tried before, where a few "enlightened" people knew better than the market, and could lead us to utopia. Mao, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin are a few who come to mind.
great ideas! But whenever something says "gets up to...", you should divide by half to get the real mpg...especially here in Cleveland where the sun never shines and winter is horrible on MPG.
u people are retarded.. use the trains.. buses.. walk.. bike.. lazy ass people
We have developed a design/concept of an almost perpetual car which runs on battery power for almost unlimited distance against present and future battery technologies. This technology can also convert present Hybrid automobiles to run thousands of miles without charging the batteries. Interested parties can contact us at GasAlternative@yahoo.com.
We have developed a design/concept of an almost perpetual car which runs on battery power for almost unlimited distance against present and future battery technologies. This technology can also convert present Hybrid automobiles to run thousands of miles without charging the batteries. Interested parties can contact us at GasAlternative@yahoo.com.
I'll be glad when this technology is readily available to the general public because the gas prices are way too ridiculous nowadays. It just hit $143 a barrel! The highest price in history and I don't think that's going to be the last high point it reaches.
My brand new Ford Extinction gets 100 miles to the gallon while I eat my vat created vegetable infused meat...just don't take my glasses off...
@InsightDriver
Not to sound pompous, but my 4x4 hunting jeep only needs to be filled ONCE A YEAR as opposed to once every 6 weeks as you stated for your Honda Insight.
But then, I only drive it maybe 100 miles a year during fishing season. The rest of the time it's helping me gather dust in the back of my barn. Don't use a drop of fuel to gather dust. Amazing, huh?
Also, I have a solar panel hooked to the battery so I can use the jeep's battery to provide light at night.
LOL, guess it makes for a pretty big night light.
.
Oh, that E. Bolor with the gas alternative. It requires the driver and passengers to eat nothing but beans all day long, then hook their butts up to the gas recovery system that then powers a small motor to turn a generator to recharge the battery.
@BIOTCHES... I think I'll just find a bike and give up on trying to free the world of self centered jerks like you! http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=solar-power-lightens-up-with-thin-film-cells
<--- is a good article Ultra capacitors are looking promising also. Anyone else know anything about the truth to http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jul/24-ultracapacitors-electric-vehicles
?? I would like to learn more:)
@Biotches... sorry I do agree that many people are lazy and not many people often think about how lucky they are to even own a car! but most of these people are putting their attention in solving the major energy crisis that is going to happen when the rest of the world gets cars too.
A plug-in solar electric with a maximum range of 400 km (~250 miles) on one charge:
http://www.solartaxi.com/
currently halfway on a world tour and on its way to the US (this month).
Pictures:
http://www.solartaxi.com/press/presskit/
i just looked, the solartaxi is coming to San Francisco 15th-18th July.
http://www.solartaxi.com/mission/route/
We wouldn't have to worry about being green if there were less of us. Birth control would solve both the problem of energy shortage and global warming.
Big words_stupid ideas: Science is the art that requires proof.
Optimist: Do not underestimate the laws of thermodynamics. The laws of thermodynamics don't know the meaning of the word "quit". I'm fairly certain they will outlast all of us.
Sean: Ummm... yeah. Be careful with the word "stupid". Reducing weight can only accomplish so much, and can NEVER reach the level of efficiency of a plug-in hybrid within its electric-only operating range. Coupled to nuclear or renewable energy sources, they effectively get infinite mileage in terms of fossil fuels within this range- they use none at all. They also allow for a level of cargo capacity and safety that ultra-light vehicles cannot possibly match.
1. Honda Energy Station - natural gas
(carbon footprint). Also, you must have a home and a lot of money.
2. Solar panels on the body of the car (In areas not too far from the equator, this doesn't work. Not to mention, this affects my health how as I sit for miles a day beneath something purposely attracting the powerful rays of the sun. Does my car come with 500 proof sunscreen, or should I just wear a specially designed hat?) If only....
3. Diesel - carbon footprint and currently more expensive than regular gasoline.
4. Throw away battery packs that someone mentioned above (even worse environmental impact). Garbage collectors can't even effectively get rid of the "regular" garbage households and businesses throw away every day. Perhaps this should be a priority. I know how hard it is for everyone to point fingers at building potential windmills, but do you know the carbon footprint of your own daily garbage? Landfills should be a thing of the past - think late 1800's. It affects the air, the land, and the sea. In other words, our total existence as human beings on this planet. We find a better way forward how - I'm sure the men at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory have the resources to solve the problem don't you?
5. Plug-in Electric Vehicles - the electric companies will skyrocket prices just as the oil companies are doing now. The added detraction is that people who live in apt's don't have a chance. For those who still have homes, who wants to wake up at 3am to rotate the cars so that they're all charged for the morning. Taxes? TBA P.S. Nuclear Stations pose a threat from terrorists.
6. Increased gas mileage/hybrid vehicles - if American auto manufacturers weren't getting kickbacks from oil companies, it would be a lot easier for normal American citizens to have a fuel efficient vehicle in the short term and be able to pay their regular bills. And now they're trying to turn to kickbacks from Electric companies??
7. Hydrogen vehicles - Does any one have any idea if this depletes the top two elements that are required for human life - air and water? If the whole world ran on hydrogen, would there be consequences to human existence and if so in what year - approximately?
If it does not pose a problem, and the vapor emitted from the hydrogen vehicles is somehow released cleanly back into the environment, and given the fact that it is currently July, 2008 and the whole world is in an uproar over demand for oil, I would like to know when I will be seeing hydrogen stations in towns all across America.
This is the land of ground breaking technology and entrepreneurship right? Or have we left that to other countries due to the silence of men and the greed that consumes them?
Does anyone hear congress's outrage at current mpg standards or the lack of hydrogen stations? Silence...
Why is it that Britain can mandate that all taxi's must be Toyota Prius's in order to maximize mpg's and New York, Chicago, Atlanta, Miami, Las Vegas, and Los Angeles are silent?
Since most 2009 vehicles are out by October, 2009, I would like to see the United States outfitted with hydrogen stations in major cities by January, 2009. I think this is do-able through federal mandates to gasoline manufacturers that are carried out by the states. And if need be, the gasoline mfg's get a tax incentive.
Any objections? (Oil, Natural Gas, and Electric companies, please put your hands down. We're trying to save America, not rape it with the audacity of your ongoing greed and overwhelming kickbacks.)
Happy 4th of July to any true Americans left.
I want a car I can plug several 18 volt DeWalt batteries into and power a variable speed 72 volt or 144 volt DC motor. They are easy to charge and they would even work well for people in apartment communities. They are recyclable, there are different types for different price ranges, and they are constantly looking for ways to improve them for safety and tool weight. While we're at it, a 36 volt lawn mower with the same concept would be nice, too. Some engineer somewhere is thinking it, but we don't need 36 volt batteries. We want to be able to grab a couple spares out of our drill case if we need them.
I don't get it...
Why do you people spend so much time b*tching about whats wrong with one idea or another commenting on a wired article. If you all felt so passionate about the energy crisis, why don't you get off your computers and do something about it? How about writing letters to your congressmen, voting, and educating people about the issues.
If there is going to be any change at all its going to start with laws and the government demanding auto makers to make electric cars, energy companies to use renewable resources, and citizens to change the way we live. I don't think we can rely on capitalism to make these changes for us, because there will never come a time when everyone wants a two seater electric car when they could alternatively get a bigger more attractive car with more horse power, even if it guzzles gas. This won't happen without legislation.
So, unless we(as in all you clearly well intentioned moaners) actually make it an issues with our government, and we don't vote for the politician for renewable energy etc. We are going to have to wait 10 times longer for these changes, if we don't demand that our government ask for them now.
There is a lot of mis-information going on here, and that is a large part of the problem.
TBL: 2)Solar panels don't bend light to the panel, they intercept light that was traveling that path anyway. The solar panels on a car won't change the amount of light passing through the windows.
4)Batteries used for cars are recyclable.
5)Any technology used in the future will be grabbed by big business interests... it's the way it is, get used to it.
6)Kickbacks from oil companies? Reference?
7)The emmisions from a hydrogen car is mainly water vapor.
Hydrogen should be thought of as a storage medium for power, like anything else, you always put in more than you get out... there is no such thing as 100% efficient. It takes a huge amount of energy to split water into Hydrogen and Oxygen. So any Hydrogen generating station would need a large source of electricity. Hydrogen is only as clean as the electricity used to split it from water. The advantage, of course, is that stationary electric production CAN be far cleaner than burning fossil fuels in a car... ie, windmills, atomic, even massive scrubbers on fossil fuel burning plant's exhaust stacks.
We DO need to look at the issue from a total system perspectives.
To those who think recycling batteries uses too much resource... how does that compare to the cost of producing more gasoline, shipping it all over the world, processing, trucking to stations... not mention spillage, leakage, vapor loss, etc... The environmental cost of gasoline is not entirely from the tailpipe.
We have a few Prius running around in Costa Rica. I read a funny story about a guard who asked a driver why he couldn't hear his motor running. When the Prius owner explained that it was electric, the guard wanted to know what happened when there was a power failure.
There is a story about fuel economy on http://www.BestCostRicaCars.com that talks about fuel economy not being a really big issue here. People don't really drive far enough like they do in the USA and Canada. The roads are too bad and the traffic is too heavy. Guess in the heavy traffic the Prius would be an advantage, but I'd hate to hit some of our potholes and risk hitting the battery.
Hi TexinEscazu,
The Prius battery is within the cockpit, behind the rear seat, and below the hatch load floor. So no risk of it being smashed on a rough road.
Toyota found out they needed to put it there, so that it would be air-conditioned in hot and cold conditons.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to "heal" my Jeep Commander. I love my car but I get a horrific 14 mpg! I just can't take it anymore. Any new-fangled contraption I can put on it? Please help.
Check this babe under water:
http://www.bangbull.com/details/30287-BE4/Sexy_babe_under_water.html
You fu@k'n fag that drives the honda insight only 5500 miles a year. Nobody asked how far you don't drive in a year. We want to know how we can drive the furthest and with the least gas. If anybody can come up with a car that can do that, that doesn't cost as much as a lexus and has better options then these cardboard cars, we're interested, if not, fu@k'em!!
Yes , it is really fascinating to drive vehicles with electric power . plug in hybrid technology one day will be ruling the time over gasoline. opec cartel would not get time to seek pardon from the rest of the world for their black mailing the oil scared nations.
If the U.S. had chosen to be a moral people, and leaving Iraqi oil alone, and following Al Gore, decided to develop the South Western deserts, with the technology of the times - solar/thermal-molten sodium - electricity installations, for the same amount of money as that war cost, ($650 Billion), today, we would be tapping into the largest, renewable, sustainable, energy source the world has ever known. It would have paid every energy bill in the U.S.A. for maintenance fees only - FOREVER! It would be equivalent to an oil field that can NEVER run dry! Low cost electric power, and storeable hydrogen gasoline replacement from the electricity, for all!
After the millions of murders, and $650 billions of dollars, borrowed from our children’s futures and pissed away, with thousands of our own and others maimed and disfigured for life, millions of families utterly destroyed, ours and theirs, we are no closer to Iraqi oil production than the Iraqis are!
The next time you hear a blithering idiot spoiled brat, drunken, drug addicted, sociopath, rich Arabic saber dancing daddie’s boy oilman, stand at a microphone and threaten YOUR safety with someone ELSE’S weapons, remember what you lost America, remember, and weep! (also see http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-plan)
Check this natural girl:
http://www.bangbull.com/details/30287-BE4/Sexy_babe_natural.html
EDITOR: Joe Brown | 
Last filled his tanks "a couple of weeks ago" - that is not impressive at all. My honda insight only needs to be re-fueled every 6 weeks, as I only drive 5500 miles a year.. But still, kudos to his team for the work they're doing.