In this conversation, HeatherAsh shares how her journey—from surviving a wildfire on her New Mexico land to living a nomadic life—has transformed her perspective on life’s wildness and wisdom. She offers profound insights into how we can harness our inner wildness while staying grounded in the wisdom that life offers. It’s all about moving forward with courage and honoring the gifts that polarity brings us.

Join us as we discuss how to stay open, willing, and wise in the face of life’s inevitable challenges, and how to use those challenges to transform into our truest selves.

About our Guest:

HeatherAsh Amara is the author of the bestselling Warrior Goddess Training and a leading voice in women’s empowerment. Her new book, Wild, Willing, and Wise, is a guide for navigating life’s challenges with courage, playfulness, and deep wisdom. HeatherAsh has been traveling the world, sharing her teachings and living on the road in a van, inspiring thousands of women to live authentically and powerfully.

Insight from this episode:

— How to unleash your inner wildness while staying grounded in wisdom
— The importance of willingness in moving through life’s challenges
— How to navigate chaos with grace and joy — Practices for balancing wild, willing, and wise energy
— How to use polarity as a tool for personal transformation

Quotes from the show:

“Surviving the wildfire wasn’t just about my land—it was about burning away old identities and stepping into my wild, true self.” — HeatherAsh Amara

“When we embrace the wild energy inside us, we unlock creativity and possibility we never knew existed.” — HeatherAsh Amara

“Willingness is about opening yourself to the unknown, while still nurturing your dreams with intention and love.” — HeatherAsh Amara

“Wisdom is not about having all the answers, but about embracing the journey with trust and grace.” — HeatherAsh Amara

Timestamps:

[00:00] Introduction: Chantal Pierrat welcomes HeatherAsh Amara
[00:23] Wild, Willing, and Wise—an invitation to dive into the river of life
[03:03] Nomadic life: promoting the book and living on the road
[04:00] The wildfire that changed everything: A story of survival and resilience
[05:58] Wildfires and societal shifts: Embracing chaos as a catalyst for change
[07:00] Dancing with chaos: How to find joy and lightness in the storm
[10:00] Unleashing your wild side: Playfulness as a tool for transformation
[16:00] When wild energy tips the balance: Recognizing excess and deficiency
[24:30] Willingness: How tending to your own dreams transforms your life
[29:00] Over-willingness and the burnout trap: How to say no and reclaim your energy
[33:00] Practice makes powerful: Reconnecting with willingness and compassion
[35:00] Wisdom in stillness: Slowing down to access your deepest truths
[40:00] Lived experience as wisdom: How to turn challenges into guiding light
[45:00] Blending wild, willing, and wise: Crafting a life of balance and purpose
[50:00] Final reflections: How to carry this wisdom into your daily life

Stay Connected: 

Chantal Pierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

HeatherAsh Amara
Website: HeatherAsh Amara
Book: Wild, Willing, and Wise

Emerging Women
Website: Emerging Women
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

Chantal Pierrat

Chantal Pierrat is the Founder & CEO of Emerging Women, a global network of brilliant women creating new leadership paradigms and supporting the rise of leaders across all sectors of society. Chantal is a celebrated podcast host, speaker, thought leader, coach, and entrepreneur dedicated to advancing conscious leadership and helping women be seen, heard, and led from the truth of who they are. Her ideas have been featured in Forbes, Huffington Post, The Street and more. Emerging Women has graduated thousands of women (and men) from peer mentoring and sponsorship programs sponsored by such Fortune 500/100 organizations as HP, Inc., Halliburton, Oracle Corp. and more.

About our Guest

Sara Avant Stover is a leading figure in personal transformation and inner healing. Rooted in the transformative power of forgiveness, she guides others towards happiness and freedom through the teachings of A Course in Miracles. Sara’s emphasis on internal work and practice highlights forgiveness as a path to grace and liberation.

Despite the challenges of forgiveness, Sara champions its potential for inner peace and healing, advocating for healthy boundaries and self-integration. Post-healing, she embodies self-acceptance and alignment, inspiring resilience and trust in one’s journey worldwide.

Resources Mentioned:

— Handbook for the Heartbroken: A Woman’s Path from Devastation to Rebirth
— Elizabeth Gilbert’s Big Magic

Insight from this episode:

— The conversation expands the traditional notion of heartbreak beyond romantic relationships to include various types of loss and trauma, such as abortion, health challenges, refugees in war, and bankruptcies. This broader understanding acknowledges the complexity and depth of women’s experiences.
— Emphasis is placed on allowing oneself to fully experience and process grief, anger, confusion, and other emotions associated with heartbreak. This includes creating space for vulnerability, falling apart, and embracing the depths of one’s feelings rather than suppressing or avoiding them.
— Conversation surrounding navigating resilience with authenticity points out that while resilience is essential, it’s not about simply toughening up and soldiering through. True resilience involves a willingness to allow oneself to break, followed by a process of rebuilding and transformation. This authentic approach to resilience acknowledges the necessity of facing challenges head-on while also recognizing the need for self-compassion and gentleness.
— The interconnectedness between personal and professional growth, especially for women entrepreneurs, is highlighted. Unresolved trauma and grief can impact various aspects of one’s life, including business endeavors, underscoring the importance of addressing these issues holistically.
— The discussion touches upon the concept of the “dark night of the soul,” acknowledging moments of deep darkness and uncertainty. Despite the challenges, there’s an underlying trust in the inevitability of change and the eventual arrival of dawn or transformation.
— Emphasis is placed on forgiveness as a part of the healing process. While forgiveness isn’t explicitly discussed in detail, the mention of forgiveness suggests its importance in the healing journey. Forgiveness, whether directed towards oneself or others, can be a crucial step towards releasing pain, resentment, and moving towards inner peace and healing.

Quotes from the show:

— “This book wouldn’t let me not write it. So it covers serial heartbreaks that I experienced between 2016 and 2020 that I honestly, that many times didn’t think that I was going to live through. I at certain points, it was so dark that I, I didn’t know how I was going to survive it much less be able to write a book about it.” – Sara Avant Stover, Emerging Women Podcast
— “When we engage with it consciously, it’s an opportunity to reach whole new levels of maturity, of wholeness of our own self unencumbered, which is I feel what rebirth is. And so this book is, is it’s like a permission slip to women when you’re going through something challenging. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re not in the wrong life. This is part of your journeys. This is part of your curriculum.” – Sara Avant Stover, Emerging Women Podcast
— “Heartbreak, not just for me, but for all of us, is an initiatory experience.” – Sara Avant Stover, Emerging Women Podcast
— “I know that prayer, prayer can be a triggering word for people. If there are religious wounds, I say it in a non-religious way. It’s non denominational. So another way to say prayer could be divine communication, conversation with the universe, talking with your higher self, connecting with your heart. So anyone listening you know, you choose the language that makes sense to you. But when there is so much despair and disarray at the personal level, what I find most helpful is to tune into divine order. And I do that through prayer. But even just energetically holding the intention to align with divine order, to align with a higher order because that exists always, it’s, it’s patterned in everything and every one. And so if we can align with that and just invite that into our psyche, invite that into ourselves into our tissues, invite that into our lives. That’s gonna start to bring like a pattern that might just start with a little thread that we follow.” – Sara Avant Stover, Emerging Women Podcast
— “The degree to which we’re going to be happy is equivalent to the degree to which we have forgiven other people and ourselves.” – Sara Avant Stover, Emerging Women Podcast
— “On the other side of healing, there’s a deep friendship and care for oneself, expanding capacity for compassion and being a resource for others.” – Sara Avant Stover, Emerging Women Podcast

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: Chantal Pierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Emerging Women
Website: Emerging Women
Twitter: Emerging Women
Facebook: Emerging Women
Instagram: Emerging Women
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Sara Avant Stover
Website: Sara Avant Stover
Instagram: Sara Avant Stover
LinkedIn: Sara Avant Stover

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

Chantal Pierrat

Chantal Pierrat is Founder & CEO of Emerging Women, a global network of brilliant women creating new leadership paradigms and supporting the rise of leaders across all sectors of society. Chantal is a celebrated podcast host, speaker, thought leader, coach, and entrepreneur dedicated to advancing conscious leadership and helping women be seen, heard, and led from the truth of who they are. Her ideas have been featured in Forbes, Huffington Post, The Street and more. Emerging Women has graduated thousands of women (and men) from peer mentoring and sponsorship programs sponsored by such Fortune 500/100 organizations as HP, Inc., Halliburton, Oracle Corp. and more.

About our Guest

Kristen teaches Native Genius worldwide at companies like HP, Airbnb, and Ebay. The Native Genius Method helps people bring out the innate brilliance in each other so that organizations up-level results, fulfillment, and belonging. Kristen is an innovator in the strengths movement, and Native Genius is the next evolution of strengths — focusing on vulnerability, mindfulness, appreciation, and connection to create lasting change.

Native Genius works with the obstacles to strengths that are hidden within the human condition. Native Genius is research-based and multidisciplinary, drawing on proven strategies from business, psychology, neuroscience, and mindfulness. Kristen started her career as a CPA and software developer for Andersen Consulting (now Accenture). Before developing Native Genius, she consulted with companies on matters of IT, leadership, and strategy for over twenty years. Amidst that work, she earned an MA in Mythological Studies from Pacifica Graduate Institute and an MA in Body Centered Psychology from Naropa University. Kristen has been an audience favorite at TEDxBoulder, was named one of the 100 Most Influential Women for EBW 2020 in 2016, and is a Strategic Advisor for Emerging Women. She lives in Boulder, Colorado

Resources Mentioned:

Native Genius
Emerging Women
Radiant Leader Program
Emerging Human

Insight from this episode:

— Introduction to the concept of Native Genius as a method for working in alignment with one’s true self, with a focus on resonance and authenticity.
— Emphasis on the significance of incorporating the feminine perspective into the paradigm of power.
— Influence of Kristen’s Work: the Native Genius method has been integral to the Emerging Women curriculum since its inception in 2013, indicating its value in personal and professional development.
— Discussion surrounding the corporate adoption of Native Genius: The method has been adopted by corporations like HP, Airbnb, and eBay, highlighting its relevance and effectiveness in corporate environments.
— Discussion of Kristen’s background as a CPA and software developer led her to develop the Native Genius method, influenced by her academic studies in mythological studies and body-centered psychology.
— Discussion of surrounding the meaning of Native Genius to the individual and in terms of application.
— Emphasis is placed on passion integration as the discussion highlights the importance of leveraging diverse interests.
— Discussion of how “native genius” reveals how understanding one’s natural inclinations can optimize talents, delegate tasks effectively, and foster innovation.
— Overall, this podcast challenges traditional views on success and leadership, advocating for a focus on one’s strengths rather than trying to excel in all areas. Delegating tasks based on strengths empowers teams, promoting inclusive and effective leadership rooted in self-acceptance and recognizing inherent value.

Quotes from the show:

— “We’re creating a new paradigm for power that includes the feminine perspective because the world needs it.” — Kristen Wheeler, Emerging Women Podcast
— “Kristen’s work has been core also to my own personal development as a thought leader, but also as a business leader.” — Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast
— “Native genius is these things that we do that we can’t not do that make a bigger difference than we realize.” — Kristen Wheeler, Emerging Women Podcast
— “When you can tune into your direct experience of that, when you’re connecting with each other, or when you’re connecting with people and you’re doing these things that you’ve been told are strengths, then you can start to look at when am I actually lighting up and when am I glazing over?” — Kristen Wheeler, Emerging Women Podcast
— “Your nothings are your something. So, that’s the goal that was in a moment that you thought was nothing. There’s something else that’s really important about the notion of innovation and how we, with our native geniuses, are moving the world forward.” — Kristen Wheeler, Emerging Women Podcast
— “Native Genius allows you to cross disciplines… This is where innovation comes from, where we get a drop of this discipline or drop of that one and somebody creates something new and that’s what you’re doing and that’s why we don’t want to dismiss any MELU moment because it all has the gold of what our gifts are in the world.” — Kristen Wheeler, Emerging Women Podcast
— “That’s the power I will say this about of the native genius method is that you can, you’re constantly, once you get it, you’re constantly looking for new applications.” — Kristen Wheeler, Emerging Women Podcast

Stay Connected:

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: Chantal Pierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Emerging Women
Website: Emerging Women
Twitter: Emerging Women
Facebook: Emerging Women
Instagram: Emerging Women
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Kristen Wheeler
Website: Native Genius
LinkedIn: Native Genius

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

Chantal Pierrat

Chantal Pierrat is Founder & CEO of Emerging Women, a global network of brilliant women creating new leadership paradigms and supporting the rise of leaders across all sectors of society. Chantal is a celebrated podcast host, speaker, thought leader, coach, and entrepreneur dedicated to advancing conscious leadership and helping women be seen, heard and lead from the truth of who they are. Her ideas have been featured in Forbes, Huffington Post, The Street and more. Emerging Women has graduated thousands of women (and men) from peer mentoring and sponsorship programs sponsored by such Fortune 500/100 organizations as HP, Inc., Halliburton, Oracle Corp. and more.

About our Guest:

Jennifer Simpson, CEO of Integrated Work, brings almost a decade of collaboration with Chantal in the Emerging Women community. As an advocate for women’s empowerment and authentic expression, she is the author of The KOAN Method: Breakthrough Leadership for a Divided World, drawing from her 30-year exploration of uniting people across differences. The KOAN method emphasizes open adaptive networks, prioritizing patience and curiosity for breakthroughs. Jennifer champions transformative leadership, blending ancient wisdom with modern practices, evident in her interconnected model of leadership development, featuring peer coaching and stakeholder integration.

Resources Mentioned:

— The KOAN Method: Breakthrough Leadership for a Divided World
— Otto Scharmer

Insight from this episode:

— Emphasis on the importance of connection, empathy, and authentic expression in personal and professional relationships.
— Jennifer, the CEO of Integrated Work, shares insights into her 30-year journey, focusing on bringing people together across differences for creative breakthroughs.
— Discussion of the KOAN method, which stands for “kind open adaptive networks” and blends ancient wisdom with modern organizational science.
— The transformative potential of connection, empathy, and leading with questions is highlighted in their journey and the book’s principles.
— Jennifer’s book (The KOAN Method: Breakthrough Leadership for a Divided World) aims to bridge traditional organizational development with mindfulness, consciousness, and purpose-driven leadership.
— Discussion surrounding the “Succeed Mantra” from the book, exploring its application for individuals and organizations, emphasizing its potential for positive change.
— Conversation advocates for ​​engaging teams in strategic thinking about their current approaches and their effectiveness in shaping the desired future. Leaders are encouraged to invite people into inquiry, recognizing that gaps in results signal missing elements in the equation.
— Conversation explores the distinction between binding common ground and building a common good.
— Discussion of the challenges faced by global teams, emphasizing that ignoring personal aspects in organizations doesn’t work. It highlights the need for addressing cultural and linguistic diversity, acknowledging the importance of creating containers of care for effective communication and collaboration.

Quotes from the show:

— “It’s not about ignoring those histories, but it’s about recognizing that in order to create a different future, we’ve really got to start from what’s important to us.” — Jennifer Simpson, Emerging Women Podcast

— “What can I bring into a conversation that’s going to create those little moments of spark and disruption that are going to lead us to a different outcome rather than just reproducing the same one, right?” — Jennifer Simpson, Emerging Women Podcast

— “But if we start from the premise that what we’re doing is trying to build a common good, then I actually think that creating opportunities for disruption to occur in containers of care right inside communities where we really want to find a way forward, that’s good for everyone is what allows us to have all the voices around the table heard is what allows us to loosen our grip on our own felt sense of what the right outcome is so that we can hear each other and so that we can find our way to solutions that work for broader communities and have broader impact.” — Jennifer Simpson, Emerging Women Podcast

— “What I love about this is that not only are we asking questions of the group, but we’re inviting people, especially those people who don’t speak up very much to you know, bring their own questions and it’s a little bit easier to invite your team and especially those who don’t speak up to say, what questions do you have than it is to say, especially if someone is not used to voicing their opinion.” — Jennifer Simpson, Emerging Women Podcast

— “And it it really becomes super powerful when we stop feeling like our job is solving the past or fixing what’s broken when we start focusing on who do we want to be tomorrow or 10 years from now, we shift our energy in the direction of our hopes and dreams instead of on our despair, right? Like the things that were so sad and frustrated are not yet better than they are. I think even from an emotional energetic place, getting people into hope and aspiration and commitment for what they care about creates a radically different trajectory than grappling with the messy things that are the bane of our days.” — Jennifer Simpson, Emerging Women Podcast

— “It is more fun to be uncomfortable in community than it is to be uncomfortable in isolation.” — Jennifer Simpson, Emerging Women Podcast

— “There’s a lot of different varieties of leadership in the emerging women community and the more that we reach for connection and continue these questions, even when we don’t have an official organization or a large team, We help to create a new model even for entrepreneurs.” — Jennifer Simpson, Emerging Women Podcast

Stay Connected:

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: Chantal Pierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Emerging Women
Website: Emerging Women
Twitter: Emerging Women
Facebook: Emerging Women
Instagram: Emerging Women
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Jennifer Simpson
Website: The KOAN Method
Instagram: Integrated Work
LinkedIn: Jennifer Simpson

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

Chantal Pierrat

Chantal Pierrat is Founder & CEO of Emerging Women, a global network of brilliant women creating new leadership paradigms and supporting the rise of leaders across all sectors of society. Chantal is a celebrated podcast host, speaker, thought leader, coach, and entrepreneur dedicated to advancing conscious leadership and helping women be seen, heard and lead from the truth of who they are. Her ideas have been featured in Forbes, Huffington Post, The Street and more. Emerging Women has graduated thousands of women (and men) from peer mentoring and sponsorship programs sponsored by such Fortune 500/100 organizations as HP, Inc., Halliburton, Oracle Corp. and more.

About our Guest:

Dr. Neha Sangwan, CEO and founder of Intuitive Intelligence, is an internal medicine physician, international speaker and corporate communication expert. Her private practice and corporate consulting focuses on empowering individuals, organizational leaders, and their teams with the tools for clear, effective communication. She addresses the root cause of stress, miscommunication, and interpersonal conflict, often healing chronic conditions such as headaches, insomnia, anxiety, and depression. She regularly consults with organizations such as the American Heart Association, American Express, Kaiser Permanente, and Google, and has shared her keynote presentation on the stages of TEDx.

Resources Mentioned:

— Intuitive Intelligence https://intuitiveintelligenceinc.com/
— Conscious Business Leadership Academy [CBLA] https://www.bdo.com/conscious-business-leadership-academy
— Fortune https://fortune.com/
— Forbes https://www.forbes.com/
— Inc https://www.inc.com/
— The Overall Burnout Assessment https://intuitiveintelligenceinc.com/burnout-rx/

Insight from this episode:

— Neha’s personal journey with burnout and the story behind her newest book
— Problems with how the society defines “success” and how it’s even more difficult for women
— Insights into the “Me, We, World” coping mechanism
— Neha’s own perception on failure
— Creating an acceptance for burnout, so we can catch it sooner
— The “Burnout Triage”; exhaustion, cynicism and ineffectiveness
— The boundaries needed to stave off burnout
— Turning the burnout-anger energy into some sort of wisdom

Quotes from the show:

— “I used to think saying ‘no’ was rude or not ok, and what I realize now is when I say ‘no’ to something and it doesn’t come from a fearful or frustrated place, but it comes from an inspired place, then it’s really about me saying ‘no, thank you’ to an offer, an opportunity that has arisen and saying ‘yes’ to myself, or saying ‘yes’ to whatever’s higher that I value or prioritize in this moment. So, I’m really saying ‘yes’ to creating the world I want” — Neha Sangwan, Emerging Women Podcast

— “The way I’ve changed being a traditional doctor to writing books, speaking, paving a new path in health care and for women and in the world, is because failure is – to me – a sign that I have stretched outside my comfort zone, I’m in the unknown, I’m paving a new path, and like, ‘woohoo, woohoo, I’m a failure!’. Like, fail and fail fast! Learn from it, grow!” — Neha Sangwan, Emerging Women Podcast

— “I always think to myself ‘good for you, Neha, ’cause you went, you took a risk, you trusted yourself, you took a risk, you went somewhere that you didn’t know or expect. I’m proud of you, that took courage. And what did you learn here?’ So, whatever pain I get, whether it’s financially or emotionally or any kind of pain that I get, I always ask myself ‘Are you ready to graduate from this life lesson or do you need more pain to get the lesson?’” — Neha Sangwan, Emerging Women Podcast

— “Burnout is a wake-up call, burnout is not a personal failure! Burnout is a wake-up call that you’ve outgrown the coping mechanisms in your life that have gotten you here and you’re someone who wants to do it all, you want to achieve and aspire. But healing burnout is a team sport, not an individual game. If you are going to isolate yourself and try to do this all alone, it’s going to be a much harder climb” — Neha Sangwan, Emerging Women Podcast

— ​​“If you want to motivate yourself, guess what, that inter-critic that kicks you up and down the street, doesn’t provide the same results as a hand on the heart saying ‘baby, you’ve got this!’” — Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast

— ​​“Until you understand your relationship to anger, you will not be effective at healing it outside of you” — Neha Sangwan, Emerging Women Podcast

Stay Connected:

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: Chantal Pierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Emerging Women
Website: Emerging Women
Twitter: Emerging Women
Facebook: Emerging Women
Instagram: Emerging Women
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Neha Sangwan
Website: Neha Sangwan
Instagram: Neha Sangwan

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

Joined by LiYana Silver, acclaimed author of Feminine Genius, we explore the journey to waking up and harnessing the wisdom of being a woman. LiYana has been a past speaker at Emerging Women Live, where she set the house on fire with her Feminine Genius.

In a world where burnout and overwhelm have become a harsh reality, LiYana offers enlightening perspectives on how to move beyond the status quo. Our discussion not only underlines the necessity for change but provides insights on actualizing that transformation by tapping into our inherent feminine wisdom.

Listen in as we unlock the power of the divine feminine, explore innovative modes of connection, confront fears, and importantly, celebrate ourselves without succumbing to self-doubt and criticism.

About our Guest:

LiYana Silver is a coach, teacher, speaker, and the author of Feminine Genius, who helps women move through life and work’s biggest challenges and become who they’re meant to be.

Her offerings include her mentorship program Meant To Be – which begins on June 7 2023! – and her online course Mining For Gold in a Dark Night of the Soul. She lives in Asheville, NC with her son.

Insight from this episode:

— How to leverage the power of our feminine genius
— The power of the divine feminine
— The essence of connection
— Innovations by women
— Practices to help women overcome fear
— Why we need to celebrate ourselves as women

Quotes from the show:

“Feminine qualities in every human being, regardless of gender, regardless of sex, can deeply connect with another human being who is invested in that relationship.” — LiYana Silver, Emerging Women Podcast

“The hard stuff is reading into nuance and being open enough to allow somebody to come in and contribute their genius so that together you thrive.” — Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast

​​“I appreciate that the kind of innovations we are seeing now and we will be seeing more of are often born out of us, as women.” — LiYana Silver, Emerging Women Podcast

“The average man needs to feel 51% qualified to apply for a job, and the average woman needs to feel 95% qualified to apply for that same job.” — LiYana Silver, Emerging Women Podcast

“Women are so capable of great creativity and we rarely give ourselves credit.” — LiYana Silver, Emerging Women Podcast

“I fail, I miss the mark, I don’t hit it out of the park just as much as anybody else, but now the huge shift is that I don’t turn on myself when I do.” — LiYana Silver, Emerging Women Podcast

Stay Connected:

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

LiYana Silver
Website: https://liyanasilver.com/
Mentorship program: Meant To Be (starts June 7, 2023)
Book: Feminine Genius
Audiobook: Feminine Genius

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

In this episode, Jen Berlingo talks about her story, her thoughts on the midlife crisis, breaking away from social norms, and finding what serves and does not serve you in different stages of life. She also highlights staying true to yourself, dismantling social norms, admitting our own truths, and why we need support in our lives and finishes with insights about her book.

About Our Guest

Jen Berlingo, MA, LPC, ATR (she/her) is a midlife coach, a Licensed Professional Counselor in the state of Colorado, a Nationally Registered Art Therapist, and a master-level Reiki practitioner. After two decades of midwifing hundreds of women through life’s major transitions and experiencing her own passage through a fiery midlife portal, she was inspired to write Midlife Emergence to accompany other women in traversing their midlife journeys. Jen is also a visual artist who creates custom pieces for collectors worldwide and exhibits her fluid, abstract art locally in her beloved town of Boulder, Colorado. There, among the sunny foothills, Jen can be found making bottomless bowls of popcorn and snuggling on the couch with her unconventional family, her coven of close friends, and her Norwegian forest tabby rescues, Jinx and Juju.

Insights from this episode:

— Jen’s thoughts on midlife crisis
— The process of breaking down
— Breaking and dismantling social norms
— Finding what works for you
— Staying authentic to yourself
— Admitting our truths
— Jen’s relationship story
— Why we need support
— Details about her book

Quotes from the show:

“It’s a decade that I think of as a space, between the first and second half of life. It’s sort of this waiting room where we have an opportunity to architect the second act of life in a way we want it to be.” –Jen Berlingo, Emerging Women Podcast
On reframing midlife crisis: “As an emergence of our more authentic self after we have the courage to maybe challenge or change or shed some of the social and familial and cultural conditioning that we might have played into in the first half of life.” –Jen Berlingo, Emerging Women Podcast
“If you can go through it (the process of breaking down) consciously and really with support, I feel like it’s such an opportunity to step more fully into yourself.” –Jen Berlingo, Emerging Women Podcast
“The fact that the lack of expression of the fullness of my sexuality had gotten so internally loud and pretty painful for me as I entered midlife meant that I needed to explore this more.” –Jen Berlingo, Emerging Women Podcast
“Making decisions from our own intuition can feel like a very lonely experience, and especially ones that are going to rock the boat, or norms or shake up systems that we put in place for ourselves (…) it takes a lot of courage to keep going in that.” –Jen Berlingo, Emerging Women Podcast
“The things that make us feel alone are really what connects us to one another” –Jen Berlingo, Emerging Women Podcast
“It’s not possible for any living being to become whole or fully expressed, from flowers, animals, in isolation.” –Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast

Stay Connected:

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Jen Berlingo
Website: Jen Berlingo
Facebook: Jen Berlingo, LPC, ATR
Twitter: Jen Berlingo (@jenberlingo)
LinkedIn: Jen Berlingo, MA, LPC, ATR
Instagram: Jen Berlingo, LPC, ATR (@jenberlingo)
TikTok: jen berlingo – midlife coach (@jenberlingo)

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

In this episode, Christine Walsh talks about money, helping entrepreneurs have a positive mindset, and changing our beliefs about money. She highlights her life during the 2008 financial crisis and rebuilding after losing her job and home. Delve into this episode to hear about her book ‘Be The Queen of Your Money’, understand the psychology of money, be okay with failure, and have an abundance mentality.

About Our Guest

Christine Walsh is on a mission to empower women to make money on their own terms. She is inspired by seeing a future in which money is guided by flow, flexibility, inclusivity, and generative-ness (AKA the triple win): financial prosperity for biz owners and their teams, their customers and clients, and for the global collective).

Insights from this episode:

— How Christine joined business school
— Helping people establish a mindset around money that allows them to grow
— Her life during the 2008 financial crisis
— The psychology of money
— How to flourish in finances
— How to change your beliefs about money
— Helping women deal with money vulnerability
— The art of being okay with failure
— Developing an abundance mentality

Quotes from the show:

— “The philosophy that I like to bring to the table is not about getting more things, it’s about actually improving the quality of our life as a whole.” –Christine Walsh Emerging Women Podcast

— “We are all grappling with money stories that we’ve grown up with or have experiences that have happened in our lives, and we need a place for that voice to happen.” –Christine Walsh Emerging Women Podcast

— “Flourishing in finances is our ability to listen, to receive, to be in a relationship in this entity called money.” –Christine Walsh Emerging Women Podcast

— “There is a lot more fear and insecurity and unknown in the entrepreneurial world with women and money.” –Chantal Pierrat Emerging Women Podcast

— “I feel like as entrepreneurs we always wanna get clear and yet the real superpower is being able to be comfortable with fear and risk, and the unknown.” –Chantal Pierrat Emerging Women Podcast

— “When women are in charge of money, when they make money they distribute it to their community, those communities thrive.” –Chantal Pierrat Emerging Women Podcast

Stay Connected:

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Christine Walsh
Website: Christine Walsh – Money Mindset Coach (christinemwalsh.com)
Facebook: Christine Walsh
Instagram: Christine Walsh (@christine.marie.walsh)
LinkedIn: Christine Walsh

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

Although not everyone is able to digest radical honesty about racism, Saira Rao is here to talk about it in a courageous and raw way. In this episode, Chantal and Saira talk about racism and how white supremacy and saviorism are still a massive problem in a world where everyone is more racist than they would like to admit. They also talk about how Saira makes this situation visible through projects like her movie, Deconstructing Karen, her book, White Women: Everything You Already Know About Your Own Racism and How to Do Better and the discussion space Race To Dinner.

About Our Guest

Saira Rao is a co-founder and Creative Director of In This Together Media, a book packaging company of children’s fiction with greater diversity in terms of gender, race, sexual orientation, and experience. She is the author of Chambermaid (Grove Press) and The Madlands (forthcoming). Previously, Saira was a television news producer in Washington D.C., and Miami; a policy associate at the Center for Educational Innovation at The Manhattan Institute; a law clerk on the United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit; and a lawyer at Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton LLP in New York City. Saira is a graduate of the University of Virginia and the New York University School of Law.

Saira Rao (Democratic Party) ran for election to the U.S. House to represent Colorado’s 1st Congressional District. She lost in the Democratic primary on June 26, 2018. She launched a movie named Deconstructing Karen at the same time she launched with Regina Jackson “White Women: Everything You Already Know About Your Own Racism and How to Do Better”. Saira co-founds Race To Dinner with Regina Jackson which is a space to discuss with radical honesty different topics that are not talked about enough in this patriarchal and racist society.

Insights from this episode:

—Saira’s journey to being a self-constructed best seller author
—Difficulties in achieving profit with Race To Dinner
—Dealing with the reviews of Saira’s book “White Women: Everything You Already Know About Your Own Racism and How to Do Better”
—Applying for a job as a woman of color
—Positive white identity
—How can black women be in a community with non-black women
—White saviorism
—Saira’s son and how he experiences racism in school
—Black women in the technology industry
—White supremacy as the status quo
—Community building between white women
—What is next in Saira’s professional life

Quotes from the show:

“[About the book] This is deprogramming and it’s painful, at first it is really painful, it’s confusing” —Saira Rao, Emerging Women Podcast.

“[About work situations where women of color are left aside] We’ve intentionally interviewed a bunch of black, indigenous, latina, and asian women in different professions to show it doesn’t matter if you’re a latina woman in Seattle or a black woman in Florida, it’s the same” —Saira Rao, Emerging Women Podcast.

“In order for us to do community, we need to stand strong in our claiming of our identity, whatever that means to us and that also means unraveling what we’ve been socialized to believe who we are” —Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast.

“There is no perfection without white skin so I don’t have a chance, Regina [Jackson] doesn’t have a chance, so white skin is a necessary but insufficient component of perfectionism” —Saira Rao, Emerging Women Podcast.

“If you all are competing with each other to be the thinnest, the prettiest, have the best hair, have the best looking husbands, have the smartest best looking children, have the best homes, how can you be in community with each other? ” —Saira Rao, Emerging Women Podcast.

Stay connected:

Saira Rao:
Twitter: Saira Rao
LinkedIn: Saira Rao
Instagram: Saira Rao

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

Every day is a chance to do it all over again. Every day is a second chance. In this episode of the Emerging Women Podcast, Chantal and Christy talk about failure, what she has learned from it, divine masculine and feminine, launching her book, ‘Oh God of Second Chances, Here I am Again’, how she started her coaching business and the inspiration behind it, and her journey of self-discovery.

About Our Guest

Christy Belz has owned and operated a coaching and consulting practice for the past ten years. Her work aims to empower individuals and organizations to reach their greatest personal and professional aspirations.

She provides tools for insight, coaching for conscious awareness, and consulting to support, grow, and develop leaders, and working with individuals and organizations across business and not-for-profit sectors. This process supports individuals, teams, and organizations to function at their most creative and highly effective abilities.

Her practice has evolved from management and leadership roles in the non-profit, for-profit, and government sectors. She has worked with and for hospitals, universities, manufacturers, and governmental agencies, as well as local businesses, foundations, and non-profit organizations. She has held positions in marketing, sales, management, and entrepreneurship. In the field of direct social work, she did counseling, not-for-profit management, community organizing, and advocacy.

Insights from this episode:

— Launching her book ‘Oh God of Second Chances, Here I am Again.’
—How she started her coaching business
— Her self-discovery journey
— Quitting her job and taking herself through college
— Using courage to tell our stories
— Christy’s relationship with failure
— Lessons from failure
— Re-inventing yourself after failure
— The divine masculine and divine feminine
— Believing in ourselves and amplifying our movements in the future

Quotes from the show:

“This (courage) is something that I think we all need. It is super timely, and it never goes out of style, let’s just put it that way, especially for women” —Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast.

“I write about courage because, and this is something I admire about you Chantal, I think it takes great courage for us as women to tell our stories” —Christy Belz, Emerging Women Podcast.

“For me it was really important to share my story and then empower others to share that. I do that in the Ted work that I do, but I love the idea of using courage to share a story from your heart” —Christy Belz, Emerging Women Podcast.

“It seems to me for the long I have known you that you lead with the energy of ‘I am enough, of positive self-reflection’. You are very generous with others, it’s like that’s your superpower. You see potential in others, and I think that’s what makes you a great curator for the TedX women events” —Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast.

“Sometimes we really need to fall down, and fall hard, and the way to pick ourselves up is not to get the pump out (…), but sometimes it’s to serve. And serving is like a natural way that allows us to see ourselves as a reflection of others” —Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast.

“I was taught and I believe that if we are really in line with our desires and that if your heart is telling you to do something meaningful and you are not listening that, it’s gonna create more havoc in your life” —Christy Belz, Emerging Women Podcast.

“When you get clear about whatever it is that your heart is calling you and you trust, and you lean in towards that a little bit, the doors are gonna open” —Christy Belz, Emerging Women Podcast.

Stay connected:

Christy Belz:
Website: Christy Belz
LinkedIn: Christy Belz

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

In this episode, Acharya and Chantal talk about collective feminine sovereignty and what it means for women and the world in general. Acharya talks about her mom and how she shaped her into who she is, into finding her ‘roar’ and how her book is an ode to her. Acharya talks about three goddesses and how they guide one into the true divine. Finally, she talks about getting our roar back and connecting with the divine and encourages women not to be afraid when they have lost their way. 

About Our Guest

Acharya Shunya is a truth-teller who facilitates authenticity, self-remembrance, and divine feminine pathways to awakening. She has a podcast, Shadow to Self, and is also the author of two bestselling books, Ayurveda Lifestyle Wisdom, and Sovereign Self. Her newest book is coming out in September 2022 by Sounds True,  Roar Like a Goddess: Every Woman’s Guide to Becoming Unapologetically Powerful, Prosperous, and Peaceful. In this book, Acharya Shunya honors her progressive Vedic roots while breaking the shackles of tradition to bring modern-day women an inclusive, feminist spirituality.

Insight from this episode:

— What is being asked of women in divinity
— How to be a master of your own senses
— What it means to have a feminine collective that is sovereign
— How to take advantage of what you have to your benefit
— How the goddesses can catalyze the feminine rising
— Insights on how Acharya found a way to access all her power
— Insights on how to own your voice and get the ‘roar’ back

Quotes from the show:

“The classic Hindu spirituality, the spirituality that I represent: Teach and embody is about that higher state of consciousness” – Acharya Shunya, Emerging Women Podcast.

“I just feel like there is an invitation for all of us; If there are thousands of goddesses, there is one that’s gonna be right for us in probably every moment or face of our lives” – Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast.

“There is divinity in everything, in the corpse, in the lovemaking, in the meditating yogi, so why should we box it?”– Acharya Shunya, Emerging Women Podcast.

“Consciousness is not stagnant, we are evolving and consciousness is evolving with us” – Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast.

“To survive and to thrive in this universe, we need our power, and we need to figure out whether it is an unconscious power, conscious power, or even superconscious power by connecting with the divine entity” – Acharya Shunya, Emerging Women Podcast.

“It’s only when you are powerful that you can bring pleasure, cultivate joy and happiness and prosperity in your life ” – Acharya Shunya, Emerging Women Podcast.

“The roar is really owning your own voice” – Acharya Shunya, Emerging Women Podcast.

“If your goal is to be generous, then you’ve got to be smart about it or you will have nothing left”  – Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast.

“You are a giver of pleasure, and you deserve pleasure, and you cannot give pleasure if you don’t receive pleasure, if you don’t open yourself up for pleasure” – Acharya Shunya, Emerging Women Podcast.

Stay Connected:

Acharya Shunya

Website: Acharya Shunya
Facebook: Acharya Shunya
Twitter: Acharya Shunya
Instagram:@acharyashunya

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

In this episode, Chantal and Janna talk about the ways in which energy is a tool to grow our souls, but yet a misunderstood one, as few people dedicate enough time to understand it as a whole. Janna talks about her journey as an Energy Medicine Specialist since the mid 90’s when there was a lot of stigma towards applying non-orthodox methods, such as energy, to cure traditional diseases such as cancer. Janna tells us a little bit about the different energy systems of our body, how these can explain different attitudes and how you can connect with your purest version of yourself.

About Our Guest

Janna Moll is the founder of Energy Medicine Specialists (EMS), an organization offering beginner to advanced coursework in the field of energy medicine. Janna teaches and presents internationally. EMS exists to educate and support the most highly trained and ethical practitioners in the Energy Medicine field. Janna has been involved with energy-based healing modalities since 1994, and has written all levels of the educational curriculum of EMS. She has been a consultant on NCCA accreditation for energy disciplines and has served on Ethics, Curriculum and Certification boards/committees.

Insight from this episode:

What led Janna to get a master in nursing
How Janna started with a masters in nursing to being an energy practitioner
How the Energy healing field has changed since the mid 90’s
How Janna’s receptivity has evolved over time
What modalities does Janna incorporate for energy healing
The importance of understanding the energy systems in the body
What is a Blueprint
The importance of knowing we are our own gods
The influence of the patriarchal world
Insights on the human energy field shrinking
How to be more you

Quotes from the show:

“[About psychotherapy] I actually left it at the time because I felt like it was designed to keep people sick: tell me again how that person abused you, tell me again how you felt when that happened to you, and it seem to dredge it on and on”– Janna Moll, Emerging Women Podcast.

“You don’t know what it is to heal, you’re willing to do the healing but you need someone who has enough background that they can put the key in the lock and say: try this”– Janna Moll, Emerging Women Podcast.

“The deeper you go into personal growth work the more you are faced with the fact that you are the decidor, you are the judge who put that contract in place, you are the keeper of the contracts and if you have a contract that is no longer serving you or that’s getting in your way, you can rewrite it”– Janna Moll, Emerging Women Podcast.

“We live in a social system that rewards the masculine and we know, we have learned as women that the only way we are accepted or effective is if we use the masculine ourselves, but our strength lies in the feminine and we have to be able to bridge those two”– Janna Moll, Emerging Women Podcast.

“An empath is someone who feels their world, they interact with the world through their emotional field…they have learned from a very young age that if they send their energy field out further from the body then they get information about the world that they’re in”– Janna Moll, Emerging Women Podcast.

Janna Moll
Blog: https://www.energymedicinespecialists.com/blog
Facebook: Janna Moll
Instagram: Janna Moll
Youtube: Janna Moll

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

In this episode, Chantal speaks with Mirabai Starr to discuss how reclaiming feminine wisdom will help us dismantle patriarchal structures and possibly even save us. They chat about the two sides of the wild and dark feminine: one that is loving-kindness and compassion and the other that’s unbridled chaos.

Mirabai also talks about how her greatest task is to translate mysticism to an inclusive language that men, women and all genders can have access to. She mentions how she first connected with mysticism, how she has nurtured it throughout her life, and how she helps people transcend and find their best way of living in this chaotic world that is urging for a feminine way to approach chaos.

About Our Guest

Mirabai Starr is an award-winning author of creative non-fiction and contemporary translations of sacred literature. She taught Philosophy and World Religions at the University of New Mexico-Taos for 20 years and now teaches and speaks internationally on contemplative practice and inter-spiritual dialog. A certified bereavement counselor, Mirabai helps mourners harness the transformational power of loss. Her latest book, WILD MERCY: Living the Fierce & Tender Wisdom of the Women Mystics, was named one of the “Best Books of 2019”. She lives with her extended family in the mountains of northern New Mexico. 

Insight from this episode:

— How did her interest in mysticism begin and evolved?
— How is her approach to mysticism inclusive?
— The cracking of patriarchy
— What longing is really about and how to reclaim it
— What the feminine spirituality is and its importance in the society
— How to connect with the sacred through difficult experiences
— How Mirabai has navigated through difficult situations
— How transcendence is beyond embodiment
— How not to demonize the ego

Quotes from the show:

“What I feel is my task in this life, at least for now, at least in this moment in time, is reclaiming that femenine way of connecting to spirit, the sacred, to each other ”– Mirabai Starr, Emerging Women Podcast. 

“[About femenine attributes that should be reclaimed] Love and kindness, mercy, compassion, connection, lifting each other up, honoring and adoring”– Mirabai Starr, Emerging Women Podcast.

“[About mysticism] You’re making that choice to interpret and bring alive a certain kind of spirituality that I think has been demonized by the great spiritual traditions”– Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast.

“[About going through difficult situations] No matter what your experience of loss is, whether it’s been traumatic or lets say more ordinary, there is no reason to rush into meaning, to try to use it as an opening to God or spirit or anything else”– Mirabai Starr, Emerging Women Podcast.

“When we cultivate certain kinds of spiritual practices, like meditation, we can nurture the soil from which these spontaneous mystical experiences might more easily flower”– Mirabai Starr, Emerging Women Podcast.

“[About women] We have been raised to be oriented, to fit in and to be hyper aware of others, and what we’re finding out is that there’s such a mountain to climb for women to have their voices heard in places of power, and we need to hear those voices to change culture, to change the current power paradigm, to dismantle the patriarchy”– Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast.

Stay Connected:

Mirabai Starr

Website: https://www.mirabaistarr.com/
Facebook: Mirabai Starr
Twitter: Mirabai Starr
Instagram: Mirabai Starr
Youtube: Mirabai Starr

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

In this episode, Chantal and Tosha talk about how to enter in harmony with the divine flow and receive not necessarily what you want at the time you want it, but what the universe has specially reserved for you. In this episode, Tosha talks about the main message behind her book and how it really is a guide not only for money, but for every aspect of life, and how this mental state helped her manifest her actual partner. She emphasizes on how to unplug from the mental state of constant survival and competitiveness and be more open to the Divine Energy to align with the good things that the universe has reserved to you.

About Our Guest

Tosha Silver graduated from Yale with a degree in English Literature but along the way she fell madly in love with yogic philosophy. For the past 30 years she’s taught people around the world ways to align with inner love. She’s the author of Change Me Prayers: The Hidden Power of Spiritual Surrender. She lives near San Francisco, where she runs an online school called “Living Outrageous Openness” with ongoing support to those who truly want to live these beautiful, ancient practices. You can also join her on Facebook by liking her author page where she often writes. She particularly enjoys finding fresh, funny ways to embrace the divine, while avoiding conventional jargon and cliches at all cost.

Insight from this episode:

What the term “it’s not my money” in Tosha’s book means
What the divine source is
The art of letting go
How to make yourself available to the divine source
How to give up the burden of your desires
How to unplug the mental state of competitiveness
How to be more open to what the divine source has for you
How did Tosha initiate a forum
How to be more receptive to the divine flow

Quotes from the show:

“[About being open to the divine source] It has nothing to do with just laying in bed hoping that, you know, you’re calling in a miracle and somebody is coming to rescue you, what really happens is that the desires are offered rather than fixated upon or obsessed over or striven for”– Tosha Silver, Emerging Women Podcast.
“Because you’re suddenly open to how the universe wants to provide, and sometimes isn’t only through money; the purpose of the book isn’t to gain abundance, is to learn how to become abundance which is entirely different, and so once you’re doing that, you’re really saying there’s no external thing which is the source of my security”– Tosha Silver, Emerging Women Podcast.
“The divine knows the time of the blooming, that’s all I know, for some people it might be just a few weeks…It’s that you’re opening to the process of the blooming as oppose to insisting when it needs to occur”– Tosha Silver, Emerging Women Podcast.
“[About Tosha’s process of opening to the divine source] Okay divine I trust you, guide me, I know you’re bringing me on a path to wholeness so that then I can receive, in your timing, what’s meant to be”– Tosha Silver, Emerging Women Podcast.

Stay Connected:

Tosha Silver
Website: https://toshasilver.com/
Facebook: Tosha Silver
Instagram: Tosha Silver
Twitter: Tosha Silver

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

In this episode, Chantal and Shanna talk about what it means to be a manifestation coach and an intuitive healer nowadays, as we live in a world where people are looking for a more meaningful life that helps them fulfill their deepest desires. Shanna helps people to align and vibrate with higher frequencies that help them attract their goals not only in their private life, but in the corporate too. In this episode, she describes how she connected with her gift since she was a kid and how everyone, by being more sensitive to their environment, can do the same. She also talks about how she deals with past trauma of her clients, and how she perceives through her son the whole new skill sets that younger generations have to offer to the corporate world.

About Our Guest

Shanna is the Founder of The Soul Frequency. She is an intuitive healer, celebrity manifestation coach, and expert in leading purpose-driven individuals in the rediscovery and development of their core soul mission. Shanna is leading the conversation about the possibilities and the practices for raising one’s frequency and creating a life founded on truth and alignment. She authored the #1 Best Selling Book: The Soul Frequency: Your Healthy, Awakened and Authentic Life, is the host of The Show Frequency Show Podcast, and is a speaker and consultant to executives of Fortune 500 companies, celebrities, influencers, and fashion industry experts. Shanna believes that if you want more for your life, there is more out there for you. She has made it her life’s work to help thousands of people discover what more looks like for them.

Insight from this episode:

— What The Soul Frequency is
— How Shanna managed her gift when she was a kid
— How people find “The Soul Frequency”
— How Shanna aligns people with a higher frequency so that they can achieve their deepest purpose and desires
— How Shanna deals with past traumas
— How to be more sensitive to the quantum world and its frequencies to access our gift
— How Shanna’s sensitivity helps her perceive energy
— What are the different experiences of Shanna’s clients
— What are the skill sets of the future
— The abilities that the new generations have to offer to the society
— How the future is going to look for the younger generations

Quotes from the show:

“What people want is to know why and how they belong and what their gift is and how they can live a life of meaning”– Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast.

“I have this very tridimensional business experience under my belt and then I have this incredible ability to see what someone came for in this lifetime and how to amplify that and how to align their whole life to kind of why they’re here ”– Shanna Lee, Emerging Women Podcast.

“We all have our own gifts and they show up in a unique way just like you’re a unique person, if we don’t have access to them it’s just because there’s lots of layers that keep us from seeing, so as you embark on work like this [aligning with higher frequency] you’re gonna be peeling back those layers”– Shanna Lee, Emerging Women Podcast.

“[About her 9 year old son] His generation understands that everybody comes with a specialty, so he does what he does well, he doesn’t feel he needs to learn everything else because he believes like: I’ve come for a purpose and the other people that round out this idea or corporation came for their purpose”– Shanna Lee, Emerging Women Podcast.

“Acknowledging who each person is as a soul and not necessarily who we want them to be, but who they came to be is so valuable”– Shanna Lee, Emerging Women Podcast.

Stay Connected:

Shanna Lee
Website: https://thesoulfrequency.com/
Facebook: The Soul Frequency VIP
Instagram: Shanna Lee
Youtube: Shanna Lee

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

In this episode, Chantal and Brenda talk about how to convert our experiences into an opportunity to evolve as a human being, and not letting trauma define who we are. Brenda encourages people to have a creative response to trauma by relating skillfully not only with your body, but also with your fear to grow from spaces, people and situations that do not fit you anymore. She talks about body awareness, how to relate skillfully with fear, and how to acknowledge your feelings in order to progressively unburden yourself from past trauma and be able to focus on your present, and reclaim who you have the potential to be.

About Our Guest

Health psychologist, author, seminar leader, teacher of yoga and meditation. Research in Transformative Experience involving Learning, Healing and Growth. Graduate studies at Columbia University and Yale University; post-graduate studies at Harvard University Medical School. The study of meditation and yoga in South Asia and India, have further informed her work as a health professional for over 30 years. Her research and experience in private practice provided the foundation for her new book, Post-Traumatic Growth: Thriving in the Face of Adversity, a compelling evidence-based study of emotional healing and transformational growth, and a practical blueprint for moving from crisis to flourishing in 7 stages.

Insight from this episode:

—How Brenda defines trauma
—Why Covid-19 represents a source of trauma for many people
—How does body awareness help dealing with trauma
—How to relate with fear in a more skilfully way
—How difficult situations help you evolve
—How to acknowledge your feelings and let go of them
—Why does psychoanalysis focus more on analysis and not vision
—How does unburdening help you shift the focus of your trauma

Quotes from the show:

“[About using trauma in your favor] Just sheer suffering without a vision and without a blueprint from where you could go with it, it does not serve you, it just wears you down”– Brenda Ungerland, Emerging Women Podcast.

“If we are seekers it involves being open to wisdom that comes from every imaginable direction, there’s a great democracy to wisdom, it can come from the most random places, it can come from anywhere”– Brenda Ungerland, Emerging Women Podcast.

“Healing and recovery is only one phase, it’s not the whole story, it’s a necessary step but nothing more than that”– Brenda Ungerland, Emerging Women Podcast.

“You’re happy not because you took a course on let’s get happy, you’re happier because you are unburdened”– Brenda Ungerland, Emerging Women Podcast.

Stay Connected:

Brenda Ungerland
Website: https://www.brendaungerland.com/
LinkedIn: Brenda Ungerland
Facebook: Brenda Ungerland
Instagram: Brenda Ungerland
Pinterest: Brenda Ungerland

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

In this episode, Chantal and Hiro go over how to function skillfully and effectively along the entire continuum of frequency that surrounds us as bioenergetic beings and especially nowadays with the presence of technological frequencies. Hiro encourages people to live in a more conscious and slow way by recognizing that by being embedded in an ecosystem of energy, we are in a deep relationship with everything, whether it is living or not. Finally, she tells us that taking into account this conscious mode of living, we need to enter in resonance with our business values and purpose in order to serve the community the right way.

About Our Guest

Hiro Boga was born in Bombay but she lives on an island in British Columbia, Canada. Business artist, mentor and soul alchemist; and a collaborative creative partner, who serves your genius and business, so both can flourish. Hiro offers multidimensional skills and wisdom gleaned from decades of experience with thousands of clients — many of whom work with her for years because they find such deep value in her self-study programs and private mentoring partnership.

Insight from this episode:

—How we are exposed to a whole ecosystem of frequencies as bioenergetic beings
—How the technological frequencies affect our energetic system and bodies
—Ways to expand your consciousness by being on a receptive mode
—How to relate correctly, as an entrepreneur, to your creativity
—How to resonate with your business in order to understand its real value and purpose
—How as human beings we are in relationship with everything around us

Quotes from the show:

“It’s funny how the pace of technology has overwritten the pace of our bodies”– Hiro Boga, Emerging Women Podcast.

“[About the receptive mode] The act of choosing is the act of exercising your power, it’s saying yes this, no that”– Hiro Boga, Emerging Women Podcast.

“Creativity is part of our souls DNA, so creativity is not off there somewhere, is not something you pursue and is constantly running away from you”– Hiro Boga, Emerging Women Podcast.

“[About recognizing that your business is an independent being] You don’t need to identify…how it resonates with your values and desires but with the values and desires of your business itself”– Hiro Boga, Emerging Women Podcast.

“Ultimately, you have to trust that if you do what is in front of you then the next step will reveal itself and the next step after that”– Hiro Boga, Emerging Women Podcast.

Stay Connected:

Hiro Boga
Website: https://hiroboga.com/
Facebook: Hiro Boga
Twitter: HiroBoga
Instagram: Hiro Boga
Book: To Be Soul, Do Soul
Exclusive Bonus for the Emerging Women Community!

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

About Our Guest

Elayne Fluker is a media entrepreneur, and host of the Support is Sexy podcast for women entrepreneurs and the CEO of Chic Rebellion Media. Chic Rebellion Media is a firm that is built on the notion of women supporting women, particularly along the entrepreneurial journey. She has interviewed more than 500 women entrepreneurs from different cultures, backgrounds, and experiences on her podcast. She has a book, “Get Over ‘I Got It’: How to Stop Playing Superwoman, Get Support, and Remember That Having It All Doesn’t Mean Doing It All Alone.”

Insights from the Podcast

— Unlearn that support does not necessarily mean that someone is in crisis. Also, support should be an ongoing process. We should not wait until we are in crisis to seek support.

— Understand how important it is to give yourself time to fall back and reflect. Assess the season you are in and what is set to bloom without forcing it or making it happen. You will discover that some things that are not as important as you thought they were.

— Discover how H.E.L.P must be used in the art of asking for support

H- Having it all does not mean doing it all alone
E- Ask Empowering questions
L- Let go of the how and leave the question
P- Believe in the Possibilities

— Insights on how to have an empowered ask through the 5Rs

1- Be Ready when you show up
2- Reason: why is it important to you or the other person?
3- Receipts: what have you done? What are you doing? What is your value?
4- Why are you making the Request: be very direct because the other party does not know what you want, and it will not magically show up
5- Show Reciprocity: be ready to give and receive

Quotes from the show:

“We need to stop associating support with a crisis. This is a thought and behavior that we need to unlearn” –Elayne Fluker, Emerging Women Podcast.

“Do not miss out on the joy of this moment. Remember why you started and the intention. It is easy for us to get distracted, just fall back and remember why you started your journey and take care of yourself ” –Elayne Fluker, Emerging Women Podcast.

“If you knew how, you would have done it already. It will happen when we leave the questions that we do not have answers to” –Elayne Fluker, Emerging Women Podcast.

“All the movements in the world were based on belief possibilities. All the things that are magical in this country all started with a belief” –Elayne Fluker, Emerging Women Podcast.

“An exceptional life is a life of low probability. If we get caught in what’s probable, we will not believe in the possibilities” –Elayne Fluker, Emerging Women Podcast.

“To adopt a possibility mindset, one needs to think of what’s possible and not what’s probable. This makes one open to the magic that is out there and one that is available. Believing in possibilities opens one up” –Elayne Fluker, Emerging Women Podcast.

“Success does not mean that we have to toil or be drained. Imagine the impact of success that has to be resourced and filed with ease and grace. It does not have to involve being away from family” –Chantal Pierrat Emerging Women Podcast.

“Success is what happens when you close the gap between reality and possibility” –Elayne Fluker, Emerging Women Podcast.

“What would this look like if it were easy? For some of us, it would involve getting some help!”–Elayne Fluker, Emerging Women Podcast.

Resources Mentioned

Momentum workshop
Dr. Srini Pillay: “An Exceptional Life is a Life of Low Probability.”
Tim Ferriss podcast

Stay Connected:

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Elayne Fluker
Website: http://elaynefluker.com/
Facebook: Elayne Fluker
Twitter: @elaynefluker
Instagram: @elaynefluker
LinkedIn: Elayne Fluker

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

About Our Guest

Kristin Neff is an associate professor at the University of Texas at Austin’s department of educational psychology. She is the author of “Self-Compassion: The Proven Power of Being Kind to Yourself” and co-written the “Mindful Self-Compassion Workbook: A Proven Way to Accept Yourself, Build Inner Strength, and Thrive”. She also has a new book called “Fierce Self Compassion: How Women Can Harness Kindness To Speak Up, Claim Their Power, And Thrive.” She has also written numerous academic articles on self-compassion.

Insight from this episode:

—Learn to say no to others and yes to ourselves. This allows us to include ourselves in the circle of compassion and prioritize our needs to avoid drowning.
—If anger is harnessed, it can alleviate suffering and be used for a good cause. Anger helps one to focus and lets people know that there is a problem. For example, the Me Too Movement and Black Lives Matter all started because people were angry.
—Self-compassion gives us the strength to open the pain without being overwhelmed. It is the ability to hold pain with love. It also allows us not to be consumed by things but rather to infuse them and figure them out. It decreases stress, depression, and anxiety.
—People have a dimensional view of self-compassion: it is a weak thing because it has traditionally been viewed as a gender role. However, self-compassion is important because it allows us to heal and not to be overwhelmed.
—Research shows that self-compassion is a powerful coping mechanism. People should stop viewing it as a sign of weakness.

Quotes from the show:

“Even though compassion is part of the female gender role, women have less self-compassion towards themselves than men do. This is because women are socialized to be self-sacrificing, and their compassion is allowed to go outward, i.e., they can help their spouses, children, etc.”–Kristin Neff, Emerging Women Podcast.

“Don’t do things for people to like you; it’s not sustainable. People will not like you anyway. However, with self-compassion, you do not require other people’s approval; this is because you can approve of yourself”–Kristin Neff, Emerging Women Podcast.
“Women are more compassionate to others and not themselves. Tenderness towards self is not intuitive, which is why women are very aggressive towards themselves”–Chantal Pierrat, Emerging Women Podcast.

“Sometimes, to alleviate our suffering, we need to accept ourselves and be open to what is and change something about ourselves. We need to be brave, courageous enough to make a change in our lives”–Kristin Neff, Emerging Women Podcast.

“Some people look at self-compassion as weak because it has mostly been associated with women (who have had less power in society than men)”–Kristin Neff, Emerging Women Podcast.

“We need a balance between tenderness and fierceness. If we have too much tenderness and acceptance without enough fierceness, then we will become complacent, and if we are angry and fierce, we are just adding to the problem”–Kristin Neff, Emerging Women Podcast.

“We feel valuable when we are loved. Let us make our happiness not dependent on our relationship. We don’t need someone else to be more worthy and whole”–Kristin Neff, Emerging Women Podcast.
“When we hold our pain with love, we start being aware, and the awareness becomes infused with love”–Kristin Neff, Emerging Women Podcast.

Favorite Quote

“The world will be saved by the Western Woman”–Dalai Lama.

Stay Connected:

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Kristin Neff
Website: https://self-compassion.org/
Facebook: Self-Compassion by Kristin Neff, Ph.D.
Twitter: @self_compassion
Instagram: @neffselfcompassion

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Stitcher and Apple Podcasts.

About Chantal Pierrat

Chantal Pierrat is Founder & CEO of Emerging Women, a global network of brilliant women creating new leadership paradigms and supporting the rise of leaders across all sectors of society. Chantal is a celebrated podcast host, speaker, thought leader, coach, and entrepreneur dedicated to advancing conscious leadership and helping women be seen, heard and lead from the truth of who they are. Her ideas have been featured in Forbes, Huffington Post, The Street and more. Emerging Women has graduated thousands of women (and men) from peer mentoring and sponsorship programs sponsored by such Fortune 500/100 organizations as HP, Inc., Halliburton, Oracle Corp. and more. 

About Carley Hauck

Carley Hauck is founder of Shine Leadership and is an author, leadership consultant, learning architect, Stanford Instructor, and sought-after speaker who teaches people, leaders, and teams to lead consciously from the inside and re-envision a workplace and world that prioritizes people and planet first. As a leadership expert, she partners with some of the top organizations in the world helping enhance cultures of high performance, collaboration, trust, and belonging. Her new book Shine: Ignite Your Inner Game to Lead Consciously at Work and in the World is available now!

Insight from this episode:

Benefits of conscious and inclusive leadership and how to foster it. 

Reasons we must be open and learn from each other in our changing, diversifying world. 

Tips for leading from a whole and balanced place and having a positive ripple effect on others. 

Why you might want to tell your team members and others at work you love them.  

Quotes from the show:

“In order to bring the greatest potential in ourselves, in our workplaces, and our world, sometimes we have to shine the light on the dark, on the things that are not always so pleasant, on the systems, and structures, or behaviors frankly, that need to shift that need to change. That requires that we do it with a certain skill, with a certain cultivation, and ways of being that allows us to do that from a place of love and truth.” –Carley Hauck Emerging Women Podcast

“You don’t have to be given that title [of leader]. We can all be leaders, and I actually feel like that’s call right now. What is that thing that you want to be the change for? What is that thing that you’re feeling a fire in your belly about? Or passion about? Or you recognize, this isn’t right?” –Carley Hauck Emerging Women Podcast

“Conscious and inclusive leaders have this stronger sense of purpose. They understand that leadership is about serving. And they’re also really wanting to support more soulfulness in organizations. They’re not all about more is better, faster because we know that leads to burnout. Is there a more feminine way that’s balanced with the masculine?” –Carley Hauck Emerging Women Podcast

“Some of the complexities of our world– a lot of them– we need everybody. We need everyone, especially when we look at some of these large problems that impact everyone. That requires a much more diverse group of people with different thoughts, different experiences, different perspectives, different educations and knowledge.” –Carley Hauck Emerging Women Podcast

“If I’m a burned out leader, and I’m not balanced and whole on the inside, I’m not using certain resources, skills to really lead from a more balanced, healthy place, that’s going to have a ripple effect with my team members, with the culture at work. I’m going to be more reactive, not as responsive, not as skillful. I’m probably going to be more scarcity based versus leading from love and generosity and abundant mindset. And that’s just how our nervous systems work.” –Carley Hauck Emerging Women Podcast

“Especially since we’ve had this shift in how we work with COVID, that there is going to be a resurgence of nature and leadership, using nature as a strategy to be a more effective leader.” –Chantal Pierrat Emerging Women Podcast

“When we lead from love, we often are able to connect better– connect to others better, but also connect more to our creativity, to curiosity, to really having the outcomes we want to have.” –Carley Hauck Emerging Women Podcast

Resources Mentioned

Shine Community Events
Shine Podcast with Carley Hauck
Shine Book

Additional Resources

Speaking
Newsletter & Podcast Sign Up

Stay Connected:

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Carley Hauck
Website: https://carleyhauck.com/
Facebook: @leadingfromwholeness
Instagram: @carley.hauck
LinkedIn: Carley Hauck

About Chantal Pierrat

Chantal Pierrat is Founder & CEO of Emerging Women, a global network of brilliant women creating new leadership paradigms and supporting the rise of leaders across all sectors of society. Chantal is a celebrated podcast host, speaker, thought leader, coach, and entrepreneur dedicated to advancing conscious leadership and helping women be seen, heard and lead from the truth of who they are. Her ideas have been featured in Forbes, Huffington Post, The Street and more. Emerging Women has graduated thousands of women (and men) from peer mentoring and sponsorship programs sponsored by such Fortune 500/100 organizations as HP, Inc., Halliburton, Oracle Corp. and more. 

About Christine Kane

Christine Kane is Founder and CEO of Uplevel YOU. For 10 years, she’s trained creative, quickstart, idea-driven, purpose-based (and sometimes chaotic) entrepreneurs and freelancers on how to optimize and Uplevel their marketing, sales, systems, teams, and their own personal energy. Before building Uplevel YOU, Christine spent 15 years in a successful career as a popular songwriter and performer. Christine’s new book The Soul Sourced Entrepreneur: An Unconventional Success Plan for the Highly Creative, Secretly Sensitive, and Wildly Ambitious is available now! 

Insight from this episode:

Strategies for walking through uncertainty and moving forward even when the path is not clear.

Details on different types of intentions you can set and tips on how to navigate decisions. 

Advice for listeners who have the “fire of emergence” within them but don’t know the first steps. 

How to move away from the “golden handcuffs” of an old identity towards something more soul sourced.

Benefits of avoiding the drain of unmade decisions. 

Quotes from the show:

On reinvention: “If you’re using intention and if you’re really following your guidance– your intuition– it doesn’t feel like reinvention at the time. Half the time it feels like total chaos. Am I reinventing myself or is everything falling apart here? But you have to keep following that calling and going through open doors.” –Christine Kane Emerging Women Podcast

“Clarity is overrated.” –Chantal Pierrat Emerging Women Podcast

“Being clear on what you know about yourself and where your delights are is one thing. But I think we have this mistaken view of clarity as I know exactly how this is going to end… for most of us, we’re just winging it.” –Christine Kane Emerging Women Podcast

“I was so in tuned with what everyone else thought of me that it was hard for me to even acknowledge how unhappy I was in [my corporate job].” –Christine Kane Emerging Women Podcast

“A lot of us are really scared to look at that divine messaging, the divine connection, because it may take us in a more uncomfortable direction. And looking deep within is uncomfortable.” –Christine Kane Emerging Women Podcast

“For three years, people thought I was a complete and utter loser, and I had to walk through that fire… nobody could see the growth that was going on.” –Christine Kane Emerging Women Podcast

“We learn intuition by doing things” –Christine Kane Emerging Women Podcast

“Our power is everywhere. We think it’s this Wonder Woman sort of a vibe, and it’s not. It is so subtle, and it requires this real relentless honesty with ourselves about why we’re doing what we’re doing.” –Christine Kane Emerging Women Podcast

“We have this addiction in our world that every decision has to be the right decision.”  –Christine Kane Emerging Women Podcast

Stay Connected:

Chantal Pierrat
Twitter: @chantalpierrat
LinkedIn: Chantal Pierrat

Christine Kane
Website: https://christinekane.com/
Twitter: @christinekane
Facebook: Christine Kane
Instagram: @thechristinekane
LinkedIn: Christine Kane
Medium: Christine Kane 

Emerging Women
Website: https://emergingwomen.com/
Twitter: @emergingW
Facebook: @EmergingWomen
Instagram: @emergingW
LinkedIn: Emerging Women
Youtube: Emerging Women

Resources Mentioned

The Soul Sourced Entrepreneur: An Unconventional Success Plan for the Highly Creative, Secretly Sensitive, and Wildly Ambitious

Join Chantal Pierrat in conversation with Barbara Huson (formerly Stanny), a best-selling author, financial consultant, TV presenter, published writer for national publications, former journalist, and revered expert in the field of money and wealth. 

We’re all plagued by mental roadblocks that deter us from our financial, energetic, and spiritual goals. And for us to truly emerge as powerful, impactful women, we need to get clear and creative with our money.

In order to bust through those roadblocks, we need to address them on cognitive, spiritual, and neurological levels. It’s not enough to know why we aren’t getting smart about money — we need to know it deep in our bones and rewire our brains to catch up with our deepest desires. 

Barbara starts the podcast with her financial backstory (spoiler: while Barbara’s story is unique to her own life, its themes are ones most women are all-too familiar with). She talks about how she knew virtually nothing about money as a young single mother of three, and she opens up about her own fears about money, managing finances, and one of her biggest challenges so far: being instead of doing. 

If you’re ready to take control of your finances, make more money, and uncover your deepest fears about what’s holding you back, tune in to this month’s Emerging Women Podcast, featuring financial consultant, Barbara Huson. 

Podcast Resources

Rewire for Wealth: Three Steps Any Woman Can Take to Program Her Brain for Financial Success

Prince Charming Isn’t Coming: How Women Get Smart About Money

Sacred Success: A Course in Financial Miracles

Emerging Women Powerboost with Barbara Huson: REWIRE for Wealth, Well-Being, and Really, Whatever Else You Want (March 3)

In this compelling, heartfelt, and deeply moving discussion, Scripture guides us through highlights of her newest book, Man Fast: A Memoir, where she abandons the societal norm of “coupling up” and takes a hiatus from dating in order to not only find herself, but to truly identify her life purpose. Reeling from grief over the loss of her father, frustrated over failed relationships, and needing to go deeper within herself, Scripture embarks on daring and challenging adventures in her ultimate quest for meaning.

Don’t miss this engaging podcast interview between Chantal and Natasha Scripture! This one will have you thinking, appreciating, and possibly planning; the world is out there and our soul is right here—for us to explore, discover, and love.

I’m your host, Chantal Pierrat.

Today’s guest is my longtime friend Dara McKinley.

Dara is a thought leader in the divine feminine, an entrepreneur, and a modern spiritual guide in the art of forgiveness.

She holds a graduate degree from Naropa University in Boulder and formerly ran a successful private counseling practice.

Twelve years ago, Dara suffered a painful betrayal by a business partner that left her questioning herself. She asked the Divine Mother for answers and received an answer that simply said: Forgive.

At first, she was reluctant. But she began to research the art of forgiveness, ultimately developing a finely-tuned practice of forgiveness that allowed her to reclaim her personal power.

And, she says … you can learn how to forgive, too.

“I define forgiveness as a spiritual experience that heals betrayal,” Dara says in today’s podcast. (7:00) What’s more, she says, mastering the art of forgiveness is key to unlocking your divine feminine power.

“Some not-so-obvious indicators that you may be in need of forgiveness are being very judgmental of others, being very judgmental of yourself, insomnia that has you worried in the middle of the night, and chronic anxiety.” (7:21)

Dara advises doing the “wince test.”

“Think of something in your life that when people bring it up or you think about it – just makes you wince inside,” she says. This is the area where you need to explore forgiveness.

Here are some fantastic quotes from my podcast interview with Dara:

• “Forgiveness is not a tool; it’s foundational. Because the path to the feminine rise is going to involve loss and failure.” (10:08)
• “The transformational process of forgiveness leaves you in such a stronger place than you ever could have imagined.” (10:45)
• “The definition of betrayal is when someone or something you trusted fails you.” (16:08)
• “Now, I use the word betrayal in my course to talk about anything that would benefit from forgiveness even if what failed you was yourself.” (16:41)
• “Forgiveness is a function of universal love, and universal love operates even when there is no understanding and no empathy, universal love can still be accessed and applied.” (22:26)
• “One of my big goals with this work is to evolve and create a working definition for forgiveness from pardoning offenses and ceasing anger to forgiveness is a spiritual experience that heals betrayal, that heals when what you trusted … fails.” (24:24)
• “If forgiveness has your back then you’re invincible because no matter where you trip and fall and stumble, you’re going to be able to move forward in a really quick way.” (33:15)

In today’s podcast, Dara and I talk about one of the most challenging opportunities: self-forgiveness.

“Sometimes you need to forgive the aspect of yourself that gives you a hard time.” (8:37)

It never occurred to me when we started talking about this that the thing that I would pick to test this course would be myself. When I realized I was going to forgive myself, I feel like I struck gold.

Self-forgiveness goes way beyond having compassion for oneself.

It is:

A clearing out of what is holding us back. And an act of surrender and a letting go of that which does not serve us.

Self-forgiveness is an all-powerful gateway to personal power.

It takes openness, empathy, vulnerability, and receptivity – all inherently feminine strengths.

The truth is: We all have someone or something to forgive – perhaps even ourselves.

It’s not just about forgiveness. It’s about healing ourselves, others and the planet. And creating a future where empathy, vulnerability, and true feminine strength reign supreme.

It’s all a part of the Emerging Women ethos, so let’s jump right into this unique and fascinating conversation. Welcome to “Forgiveness and Feminine Power” with my friend Dara McKinley.

My guest today argues a daily spiritual practice is essential for women in these stressful contemporary times.

Welcome to the Emerging Women podcast. Today my guest is Snatam Kaur.

Snatam is a musician with a voice of an angel. She transforms traditional Sikh chants of India into nectar for the soul in our troubled times.

She is also a yogi, author, and teacher.

Her 2016 book titled >Original Light; the Morning Practice of Kundalini Yoga encourages women to create a personal daily spiritual practice.

Snatam was raised in the Sikh and Kundalini Yoga tradition with revered spiritual teacher, Yogi Bhajan. She has taught and shared Naad Yoga and Kundalini Yoga and meditation through her concerts, recorded music and workshops for the past 20 years.

Snatam says that through a daily practice or “soul work” women can experience joy, energy, health, and connection with others and the Divine.

Snatam advises all women to weave into their lives a regular experience of inner peace – and gives us a roadmap for how to wake up and how to integrate our energy into society on a daily basis.

In today’s episode, Snatam and I spoke about:

• The one question every woman must ask themselves today.
• The importance of a daily spiritual practice of self-love, self-care, purification, and acceptance.
• The connection between our body, mind, and soul.
• The power of sacred recitation, yoga, and chanting to heal worry, stress and anxiety.

We dive into those topics and more! Here is my conversation “Original Light” with Snatam Kaur.

Mike is a well-respected author, thought leader and speaker in our community. His fourth book, Bring Your Whole Self to Work, advocates a corporate cultural paradigm shift toward vulnerability — to both improve employee engagement and boost the bottom line.

Our mission at Emerging Women is not only to increase women’s leadership, but also to create a new workplace cultural paradigm that ushers in a more humane, feminine ethos of collaboration, empathy, and compassion. And Mike Robbins is a leading voice on that front.

During our podcast interview, Mike and Chantal explore an essential question: What if the workplace was not just a place to develop your career, but a destination for personal transformation?

In his latest book, Mike says that vulnerability — allowing ourselves to be genuinely seen — is the secret sauce to creating human trust and connections. Stemming from those connections is a feeling of “psychological safety” that leads to better performance, outcomes and success.

Mike is a sought-after speaker with corporate clients including Google, Microsoft, and Gap, Inc. to name a few.

Mike is a former professional baseball player who studied race and ethnicity at Stanford University. Growing up in Oakland, California, he was the only white player in his high school baseball league. Now Mike says he is no longer shy about speaking up on topics of race and gender.

In this episode, Mike and Chantal explore … what if the workplace was not just a place to develop your career, but a destination for personal transformation?

We discuss how a more feminine approach to business with collaboration, creativity, and connection – can translate into bottom-line success.

And we delve into the link between a team’s success and their feeling of psychological safety at work.

We also talk about what to say when tears come at work. 

Here is our compelling conversation, “Bring Your Whole Self to Work” with an absolute gem of a guy: Mike Robbins.

Today’s guest is Sera Beak, who finished graduate school at Harvard studying comparative world religion and rapidly gained traction as what The New York Times called “a new role-model” for her generation. She was much in-demand as a speaker, author, and teacher for young modern women who she felt had been left out of the world’s wisdom traditions, when, as she puts it, “the universe slapped her to the ground.”

She realized the importance of finding and embodying her Soul, which we talk about in this podcast, and one of the things I most admire about Sera is that she walked away from all the lucrative offers and life in the spotlight in order to pursue her truth, so that she could more deeply contribute to this world.

Now her long-awaited third book, Redvelations, has just come out, and she joined me to discuss the difference between your divine soul and your human soul, and how one can guide you to complete the other. We also talk about the epidemic of soul loss, and how the body is truly the way home. So get ready to get open – we delve into some pretty uncharted territory as far as space and time are concerned.

It’s all a part of the Emerging Women ethos, so let’s jump right into this unique and fascinating conversation. Welcome to “Redvelations” with Sera Beak.

Today’s guest is MILCK, aka Connie Lim, the artist behind the goosebump-inducing anthem “Quiet,” which captured the nation, and the world, when she premiered it with a live chorus in flashmob form at the 2017 Women’s March. Her song has since gone viral reaching over 15 million listeners all around the world.

In this episode, MILCK shares her lifelong journey from people-pleaser to truth-teller, and how she has personally worked her edge and overcome challenges to finally feel comfortable expressing the truth of who she is to the world.

We hear first-hand how she came to organize an incredibly impactful moment-turned-movement, rather than succumb to industry pressures to monetize the release of the single.

And hear MILCK’s perspective on how speaking out can play a healing role in transforming shame and self-blame, both for self and for others.

It’s all a part of the Emerging Women ethos, so let’s dive in and hear it from the singer/songwriter, multi-instrumentalist, and choir-builder herself. Welcome to “Can’t Keep Quiet” with MILCK.

Elle recalls hearing David Whyte say, “There comes a time when you no longer want to be a part of the conversation that diminishes you.” To help women who are coming to the same realization, Elle and Susie have just put out the beautiful book Your Story is Your Power – Free Your Feminine Voice.

Today we’ll discuss insights and exercises from the book, including how we can identify the parts of our stories that are keeping us from our own bests interests as women, how personality typing (attention: Enneagram lovers!) can give us signposts as we uncover our true voice, and how the special, impactful magic that radiates around a woman working her edge can lead to a better future for all.

Ready to tap into the feminine to ignite transformation, internally and externally? It’s all a part of the Emerging Women ethos, so let’s dive in and go deep. Welcome to “Your Story is Your Power” with Elle Luna and Susie Herrick.

Jackee Holder is an executive and leadership coach, who helps high-level business people access the parts of themselves that live below the surface through journaling so that they have increased access to their own resilience, visioning, restorative care, and other strengths.

As the author of 49 Ways to Write Yourself Well, Jackee has many practices to share. Does journaling ever feel like homework to you? Jackee teaches us some ways to entice your muse to come play instead of giving her more boxes to check. She’ll share snapshots from her own multi-faceted, multi-media journaling practice for inspiration. And we’ll talk about the special power of trees to help us drop into something deeper with ourselves and each other.

This episode is all about expression and connection. It’s the mainstay of the Emerging Women ethos, so let’s get to it! Welcome to “Healing Through Writing” with Jackee Holder.

There’s a tendency in current culture to let the digital world act as a scoreboard for our worth as human beings. I myself may be guilty of letting the number of likes dictate my mood on occasion. Amy believes it’s important for tech leaders to upend that tendency by facilitating quality connections rather than quantities of connections.

In our conversation, Amy connects the dots that made her an entrepreneur on a mission to evolve the dating industry. We’ll talk about what it means to look for “mindful connection” or a “conscious partner,” and the benefits of practicing intimacy beyond the context of romantic relationship. She even shares how she’s changed the way she dates lately – which she believes will call in a much bigger love than she would have found before she shifted her perspective.

This episode is about to get real about mindful connection. It’s all a part of the Emerging Women ethos, so let’s dive in and go deep. Welcome to “MeetMindful” with Amy Baglan. {Press PLAY above}

This episode is brought to you by our friends at MeetMindful. MeetMindful is revolutionizing the way we meet and connect with others in daily life by inspiring people to make meaningful connections every day, both on and offline.

Maybe you’re looking for long-term love with a partner who shares your core values. Perhaps you just want to meet a new like-minded friend to grab a coffee with on Saturday afternoon. The bottom line? You’re looking for people to connect with, people who get you. If you’re interested in meeting like-minded people, welcome to your new community. Visit MeetMindful today to start your free trial.

You’re going to love this conversation if, like me, you love Eckhart Tolle, want to be one with the universe, but have kids or a business and can’t just sit on a bench for months at a time trying to let your human self dissolve completely. There’s a middle ground, says Cate Montana, author of The E Word. She’s here to share what she’s learned after years of meditation and study, and give us techniques, tips, and insights into moving beyond our stories and opening up to the truth of who we really are.

This episode is about to get real about awakening, self-improvement, and expanded ego. It’s all a part of the Emerging Women ethos, so get let’s dive in and go deep. Welcome to “The E Word” with Cate Montana.

We talk about why it’s so important to build resilience in girls, and how they largely put their skills to use for community good. We talk about how to fight sexism in tech companies, and how to promote diversity in the workplace beyond quotas. And Reshma shares her insights for passionate women who seek to gain influence and power for public good.

This episode is about to get real about colossal failure and its potential to take us places we never imagined. It’s all a part of the Emerging Women ethos, so get let’s dive in and go deep.

Welcome to “Brave Not Perfect” with Reshma Saujani.

{Press PLAY above}

This episode is brought to you by our friends at MeetMindful. MeetMindful is revolutionizing the way we meet and connect with others in daily life by inspiring people to make meaningful connections every day, both on and offline.

Maybe you’re looking for long-term love with a partner who shares your core values. Perhaps you just want to meet a new like-minded friend to grab a coffee with on Saturday afternoon. The bottom line? You’re looking for people to connect with, people who get you. If you’re interested in meeting like-minded people, welcome to your new community. Visit MeetMindful today to start your free trial.

In this podcast we talk about all the readings, healers, workshops, juices, therapists, weekend retreats and more she’s experimented with, and whether it was all worth it. We talk about what it means to have spiritual maturity, and the importance of self-acceptance, morality, and creative agency. We get into forgiveness, ego, her new take on desire, and the science of surrender. And it is juicy, people. Seekers – you’re going to want to hear this one. Let’s dive in.

Welcome to White Hot Truth with the passionate Danielle LaPorte. {Press play above}

This episode is brought to you by our friends at MeetMindful. MeetMindful is revolutionizing the way we meet and connect with others in daily life by inspiring people to make meaningful connections every day, both on and offline.

Maybe you’re looking for long-term love with a partner who shares your core values. Perhaps you just want to meet a new like-minded friend to grab a coffee with on Saturday afternoon. The bottom line? You’re looking for people to connect with, people who get you. If you’re interested in meeting like-minded people, welcome to your new community. Visit MeetMindful today to start your free trial.

LiYana Silver mentors women to unlock their Feminine Genius using intuition (before reasoning), feeling (before thinking), receiving (before giving), sensuality (before willpower), pleasure (before restriction), and collaboration (before competition).

In today’s podcast, we unpack the term feminine genius through the combined lenses of spirituality and science, specifically quantum physics. We talk about how to trust in the “death” part of the death and rebirth cycle, and how to express your authentic self without dying from your emotions. We’ll also hear why LiYana says women are like lightbulbs… can you guess why?

I am thrilled that LiYana will be joining us again at Emerging Women Live 2017 in Denver, CO. I hope you will be there, too, either in person or via free livestream – sign up here.

This episode is brought to you by our friends at MeetMindful. MeetMindful is revolutionizing the way we meet and connect with others in daily life by inspiring people to make meaningful connections every day, both on and offline.

Maybe you’re looking for long-term love with a partner who shares your core values. Perhaps you just want to meet a new like-minded friend to grab a coffee with on Saturday afternoon. The bottom line? You’re looking for people to connect with, people who get you. If you’re interested in meeting like-minded people, welcome to your new community. Visit MeetMindful today to start your free trial.

Lisa researched neuroscience and created the practice of neurosculpting to heal herself from a trauma you have to hear to believe (it starts with being struck by lightning and gets weirder from there). Since then she’s brought the practices and process of self-directed neuroplasticity to help everyone from street police to working professionals down-regulate negative patterns of chronic or traumatic stress.

Today we talk about:

• why the brain makes patterns and scripts
• how neurosculpting can help you renegotiate patterns that no longer serve you
• fear and free will
• how to make memory an expansive fuel instead of a limiting cage
• two simple practices to get your brain and body communicating as they work together to repattern your stress response

Lisa will be hosting the workshop “Neurosculpting for Leadership in the Zone” at Emerging Women Live 2017 in Denver, CO. I hope you can join us!

Rachael was a constant achiever who took on a stretchy position at Google which led to a lot of negative feedback: physically, emotionally, and from others. Rachael authored the book Pause: Harnessing the Life Changing Power of Giving Yourself a Break after she made the intentional decision to get more in line with her true self instead of beating herself up trying to force a life that was no longer working.

In today’s podcast we discuss burnout as a blessing, failure as feedback, and how to recognize signs that you need a pause. Rachael shares specific ways to pause and how to check in with yourself when presented with conflicting options so you stay true to your deep yearnings. And we learn about TASERing – a practice Rachael developed to help us mentally floss our brains of limiting false beliefs.

I’m glad you’re taking this pause in your day to tune in to our conversation “Pause” with go-getter turned power pauser, Rachael O’Meara.

Esther’s new podcast Where Should We Begin? in collaboration with Audible.com is striking a chord – it hit #3 on the charts, up there with This American Life – by taking conversations once reserved for the psychotherapist’s office and making them a part of public discourse. In this way, Esther is giving us the language we need to discuss the multitude of possibilities and options that exist for creating a thriving relationship in modern times.

When speaking to a couple, she invites them to consider the vast array of factors – both internal and external – that effect relationship. Desire and sexuality, yes, but also culture, class, longing, betrayal, unemployment, infertility, romanticism, illness, fear, death – all of life’s big issues are discussed openly and honestly to see what they have to teach us about the human heart.

We’re just scratching the surface of this endlessly juicy subject today, so Esther will be speaking at our annual event Emerging Women Live 2017 to delve deeper into the conundrums and complexities of relationship. I hope you’ll join us in October, and let’s start laying the groundwork now with “The Real Real of Relationships” with the dynamic and prolific Esther Perel.

Jennifer grew up in a conservative culture, and in college took a women’s studies class that completely flipped the script for her. She became active in social justice, driven by a desire to make positive change. While getting her masters in operatic singing, she literally lost her voice. She realized she was still meant to use her voice – not as a singer, but on behalf of others, working to help them find their own. She got a masters in change management and has recently written the book Inclusion: Diversity, the New Workplace & the Will to Change.

Today we’re talking about the inevitability of change, the prices people pay for being different, and how workplaces of the future can address humanitarian and social equality issues as we move through these turbulent times.

Let’s dig into this fascinating and necessary conversation, “The Power of Inclusion” with diversity and inclusion expert Jennifer Brown.

Amanda launched Daily Worth in 2009 to bring a fresh voice and outsider’s perspective to personal finance, and we discuss what led her to launch the women-centric investment platform WorthFM towards the end of this podcast. Oprah selected her for the exclusive SuperSoul 100, and Forbes named her one of 21 New American Money Masters.

Her new book, Worth It, tackles the issues around women and money because guess what, people: in the next 15 years women are going to inherit two-thirds of the 40 trillion dollars moving from Baby Boomers to the two generations below. A “perfect storm of opportunity” is coming, and Amanda wants to make sure we’re ready for it.

Whether you’re budget-averse or a fiscal hoarder, Amanda’s big-picture strategy of focusing on your net worth, knowing your Money Type, and identifying your roots and wings will have you breathing a sigh of relief as you roll up your sleeves and dig in to this money stuff.

Let’s hear it from the amazing money guru herself, Amanda Steinberg, with this week’s conversations: Worth It. Just press the play button above!

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

Does it make you smile? Do you feel a little badass? Then you’ll love today’s conversation with teacher, author and icon Regena Thomashauer, who’s made it her mission to elevate the pussy to the true seat of feminine power that it is. Her new book is called Pussy: A Reclamation, and it is on fire. It thrills me to say that you can now read the word Pussy at the top of the New York Times bestsellers list!

Regena and I talk about why today’s culture needs women to engage with the “full gale-force winds” of their sensual and sexual energy. We discuss how and why women got so disconnected from their sensual power, and how to reconnect with a few of Regena’s favorite practices. As Regena says, “We don’t have to be victimized by living in a patriarchal culture. We can create the solutions with this divine, magnificent, body that is woman.”

So without further ado, let’s dive into this week’s Emerging Women podcast “Pussy Power” with Mama Gena, Regena Thomashauer. Just press the play button above!

Don’t miss an episode: Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

If it’s not in the stresses of work, of stepping into our leadership, of owning our true selves, it’s in the fear-fraught news and media coverage of global events. It affects our choices, our decisions, and more than anything I created Emerging Women so that we can all know that we have to face fear to grow, but we don’t have to face it alone.

That’s why I’m so excited to have New York Times bestselling author and next-generation thought leader Gabby Bernstein on our podcast. She has written a book so timely – just its title makes me breathe a huge sigh of relief. The Universe Has Your Back is Gabby’s fifth book, and one she says she wrote just as much for herself as for her readers.

Today we talk about what she calls “her shittiest year,” and how she embodied the practices in her book to heal herself through it. She shares a few of those practices with us, including a powerful “reset button” called Forgiving the Thought and her 2 “go-to” steps for releasing fear-based blocks and becoming a joy magnet. Humility, connection, authenticity – it’s all here.

So get ready to become your own alchemist and transform fear into faith with the fierce and fabulous Gabby Bernstein.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

I’m Chantal Pierrat, your host, and I can’t wait to dive in to this week’s conversation with the fabulous Janet Mock, author of Redefining Realness and host of the weekly culture show SoPOPular! on MSNBC.

Janet and I talk about her story as a “blueprint for life” for a young black trans person of color, how she defines courage, and what’s inherently bizarre about binary gender norms. We consider the power of “discussing things we pretend we’re too smart to like,” like trashy tv shows and celebrity gossip. And Janet just nails it down when I ask her what vision she has for those of us who are no longer willing to compromise what we know to be true on the inside in order to maintain the mask we put on for survival.

Hells yes. Let’s get to it – this week’s Grace & Fire podcast “Redefining Realness” with the brilliant and beautiful Janet Mock.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

Her writing is simultaneously hilarious and vulnerable – full of raw, unabashed realness on everything from addiction to motherhood to marital infidelity. And though “she writes simply as a way to survive,” she says, her words are powerful and resonate with readers who have found themselves “on the bathroom floor” in their own ways.

I love that she’s also a fierce movement-maker, full of outward action to help people in need. Glennon is the creator of Together Rising, a non-profit organization that has raised over four million dollars for families around the world through its Love Flash Mobs, which have revolutionized online giving.

Glennon and I talk about:

• “Being Underneath” and the dangers of treating pain like a hot potato
• The benefits of a tender, feminine faith that isn’t rule-bound
• The feeling of being evicted from your whole life, and what comes next
• How society colors the way we are able to give and receive love
• How to view women as warriors rather than helpers

Let’s dive in to this week’s conversation “Love Warrior” with the self-proclaimed Recovering Everything: Glennon Doyle Melton.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

]]> full 52:15 hello@emergingwomen.com (Chantal Pierrat)noI am feeling my full Warrior energy after speaking with Glennon Doyle Melton. She is the bestselling author of Carry On, Warrior and founder of Momastery.com, and her new book Love Warrior launches in just a few weeks and without a doubt will be yet another best-seller. Her writing is simultaneously hilarious and vulnerable – full of raw, unabashed realness on everything from addiction to motherhood to marital infidelity. And though “she writes simply as a way to survive,” she says, her words are powerful and resonate with readers who have found themselves “on the bathroom floor” in their own ways. I love that she’s also a fierce movement-maker, full of outward action to help people in need. Glennon is the creator of Together Rising, a non-profit organization that has raised over four million dollars for families around the world through its Love Flash Mobs, which have revolutionized online giving. Glennon and I talk about: “Being Underneath” and the dangers of treating pain like a hot potato The benefits of a tender, feminine faith that isn’t rule-bound The feeling of being evicted from your whole life, and what comes next How society colors the way we are able to give and receive love How to view women as warriors rather than helpers   Let’s dive in to this week’s conversation “Love Warrior” with the self-proclaimed Recovering Everything: Glennon Doyle Melton. Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.Chantal PierratI am feeling my full Warrior energy after speaking with Glennon Doyle Melton. She is the bestselling author of Carry On, Warrior and founder of Momastery.com, and her new book Love Warrior launches in just a few weeks and without a doubt will be yet another best-seller. Her writing is simultaneously hilarious and vulnerable – full of raw, unabashed realness on everything from addiction to motherhood to marital infidelity. And though “she writes simply as a way to survive,” she says, her words are powerful and resonate with readers who have found themselves “on the bathroom floor” in their own ways. I love that she’s also a fierce movement-maker, full of outward action to help people in need. Glennon is the creator of Together Rising, a non-profit organization that has raised over four million dollars for families around the world through its Love Flash Mobs, which have revolutionized online giving. Glennon and I talk about: “Being Underneath” and the dangers of treating pain like a hot potato The benefits of a tender, feminine faith that isn’t rule-bound The feeling of being evicted from your whole life, and what comes next How society colors the way we are able to give and receive love How to view women as warriors rather than helpers   Let’s dive in to this week’s conversation “Love Warrior” with the self-proclaimed Recovering Everything: Glennon Doyle Melton. Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.women,leadership,inspiration,success,career,money,spirituality,power,feminine,psychology,connection,authenticity https://emergingwomen.com/podcast/the-moonshot-effect-with-kate-purmal-lisa-goldman/ Tue, 16 Aug 2016 13:04:32 +0000 https://emergingwomen.com/?post_type=podcast&p=36957 https://emergingwomen.com/podcast/the-moonshot-effect-with-kate-purmal-lisa-goldman/#respond https://emergingwomen.com/podcast/the-moonshot-effect-with-kate-purmal-lisa-goldman/feed/ 0 I recently learned a new word that I LOVE: moonshot. It sounds so feminine, but with this deep undercurrent of disruption of the status quo.

Inspired by President Kennedy’s massive efforts to put a man on the moon, a “moonshot” is a barely achievable initiative that demands extraordinary effort and teamwork to achieve. It’s an initiative that’s definitely not possible with “business as usual” – you have to completely transform ways of working and collaboration and performance in order to make it happen. And the most exciting part? The widespread effects of a moonshot are often world-changing in a way no one could have imagined.

Kate Purmal and Lisa Goldman are wildly accomplished leaders who have many decades of moonshot experience between them. They’ve led, guided and inspired companies from Apple to Match.com through successful moonshot launches, and have brought that expertise to bear in their new book The Moonshot Effect: Disrupting Business as Usual, a step-by-step “How To” for moonshot projects, and also just an indispensable guide to leadership in general.

I had the pleasure of talking to Kate and Lisa to help us wrap our heads around the catalyzing topic of . We covered:

• The Moonshot Effect and its radical ability to galvanize people into action around a world-changing idea
• The stages, timeline and ripple effect of a moonshot
• Two crucial practices of bold, outrageous visionaries
• Tips for sourcing power from your body and language
• The difference between being humble and being a courageous Hero-Maker

So let’s dive in to this week’s conversation “Moonshot” with chronic game-changers Kate Purmal and Lisa Goldman.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

Marianne founded Project Angel Food, a meals-on- wheels program that serves homebound people with AIDS in the Los Angeles area. She also co-founded the Peace Alliance, and serves on the Board of Directors of the RESULTS organization, working to end the worst ravages of hunger and poverty throughout the world.

Her weekly lectures in New York City are available via Livestream on her website Marianne.com, where you will also find loads of other amazing content.

In Marianne’s recent book: Tears to Triumph: The Spiritual Journey from Suffering to Enlightenment she argues that we—as a culture and as individuals—have learned to avoid facing pain. By doing so, we are neglecting the spiritual work of healing.

In this episode, Marianne and I spoke about:

• The age we are living in: “Age of the Choir”
• How Depression is addressed in our culture and the transformative power of the Dark Night of the Soul
• The barrage of meaninglessness that literally “bruises the Spirit” occurring in our world today, and how it is essential to heal the spirit on our journey toward wholeness
• How miracles are actually thoughts and how to navigate our emotions
• Forgiveness, and how it can be a bridge between our inner work and what we create in the world.

After we recorded this podcast, Marianne wanted me to pass along the important message to anybody taking medication for depression, mental illness or other pain:  Marianne strongly recommends that should you desire to alter your medication, or get off them altogether, that you do so under the strict supervision and consultation of your doctor. 

Here is my conversation “Tears to Triumph” with the fabulous torch-bearer of Spirituality: Marianne Williamson.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

Tosha Silver runs an online school called, “Living Outrageous Openness: Think Like a Goddess.” This school offers an ongoing way to support those who truly want to live these beautiful, ancient practices. She’s the author of Outrageous Openness: Letting the Divine Take the Lead and the recently released Change Me Prayers: The Hidden Power of Spiritual Surrender and the Audio Program, Embrace the Divine: Meditations on Spiritual Surrender.

Tosha was a featured presenter at Emerging Women Live 2016.

In today’s episode, Tosha and I spoke about:

• Her journey and how she has become immersed in the work of the Divine
• How the ‘everyday/mundane’ coupled with the Divine are actually the same thing
• The distinction between mindfulness and being led by the Divine
• The idea of ‘Surrender’ versus will, and how they can mean the same thing
• Being receptive and identifying the signs of what the Divine is trying to tell us
• Finally, we talked about how the Divine can shape your vision for the future

Here is my conversation “Outrageous Openness” with the wonderfully divine: Tosha Silver.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

Sara graduated from Columbia University’s all-women’s school, Barnard College. After a cancer scare in her early twenties, Sara moved to Thailand, where she lived for ten years and embarked on a decade-long healing and spiritual odyssey throughout Asia. She has since gone on to uplift tens of thousands of women worldwide.

A pioneer in contemporary women’s work, she’s the creator of the world’s first Women’s Yoga Teacher Training, Reversing Our “Curse,” and The SHE School. Her new book: The Book of SHE: Your Heroine’s Journey into the Heart of Feminine Power celebrates all that it means to be a woman, from mythological underpinnings to the cycles of our day-to-day lives.

In today’s episode, Sara and I spoke about:

• Rhythm – it’s significance and power for women
• The Heroine’s Journey vs. The Hero’s Journey
• Her 5 steps of the Heroine’s Journey
• Archetypes and the importance of the Crone
• Learning how to navigate through “darkness” and how to “Turn on Your Brights”
• The Homecoming

Here is my  conversation “Living the Heroine’s Journey” with the wise and powerful Sara Avant Stover.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

In today’s episode, Elle and I spoke about:

• Dreams: How to use them as signposts of what to go after in the “real world”

• What Elle means by Should and Must, and how to make decisions toward Must

• Her belief that there is a rise of spirit and emergence going on right now in the collective

• How Must is not quite a decision, but rather… well, a must

Here is my  conversation “Should vs. Must: A Daily Practice of Following Your Heart” with the inspirational artist Elle Luna.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

Rooted in humble beginnings, Tererai grew up in a cattle-herding family in rural Zimbabwe. Despite facing many obstacles, she never lost sight of her dreams for an education. She could not have imagined that her steadfast determination, hard work and belief in her dreams would eventually earn her multiple degrees and a prominent global platform with world leaders and international audiences where she leads the global charge in the fight for quality education and women’s rights.

Her new picture book, The Girl Who Buried Her Dreams in a Can, is based on this incredible story of perseverance. When you buy her book, a portion of the proceeds will go toward building a cafeteria in Africa that feeds over 1,200 students who walk 5-6 miles every day to attend school.*

In today’s episode, Tererai and I spoke about:

• Her life story and how she kept hope alive during immense difficulty
• The universal power of belief
• What she describes as: “The Great Hunger” that fuels her passion to achieve her dreams
• How she was able to step into her voice and the power of storytelling
• Her ULTIMATE dream

Here is my conversation “Dream Big” with the incredibly inspiring and powerful: Dr. Tererai Trent.

*You can choose to buy two copies and gift one to girls in Tererai’s Community and Afar! If you’d like to gift a book to Tererai’s girls, please autograph the copy and send to C/O Dr. Trent PO Box 2206 Salinas, CA 93901. Thank you!

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

Her 2013 TED talk, “The Secret to Desire in a Long-Term Relationship,” attracted more than a million views in the first month after its release. Her second TED Talk, “Rethinking Infidelity: A talk for Anyone Who Has Ever Loved”, was equally well-received. Combined, her TED talks have received approx. 10 million views.

In today’s episode, Esther and I spoke about:

— Her definition of desire; the importance of owning desire and how to connect to our own desires
— Women are socialized for connection and the associated vulnerability of the inability to connect to self
— Experiencing freedom from perfection without the guilt
— Imagination complementing reality in relationships
— What women can hold onto for stability in the ever increasingly gender-fluid era.

Here is my ‘juicy’ conversation The Fluidity of Desire with the insightful and practical: Esther Perel.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript

Welcome, Esther! I’m so excited to have you here on the show!

Esther Perel: Thank you! It’s a pleasure for me to be with you as well.

CP: And every time you speak, I feel like a tender heart, because my mother, who has passed away, had a much thicker French accent than you have, and I’ve been listening to your audio book, Mating in Captivity, so I feel like you’ve been with me on my walks in the morning and listening to your content. It’s kind of taking me back a bit.

EP: You know, we share, in utero, it’s probably the first sense that we develop. So we are starting out with a very intimate connection. And if you want, I can even make my French accent a little stronger, so that I can channel your mother.

CP: [Laughs] She spoke like zis.

EP: Oh, wow.

CP: Oh, no, it was very thick. But I think that when you have an accent like that, and you’re talking about sensuality and sex and desire—I don’t know what your experience has been, but it seems like you might have carte blanche to say just about anything, right?

EP: Well, you know, the French accent works in both directions, especially in the United States. Sometimes it comes with a kind of bias that says, “Oh, you must know something, the je ne sais quoi that French people have in the realm of the erotics.” But then, on the other side, the opposite way is to start with kind of a warning sentence that says, “No, no, I’m not French, I’m not morally depraved, it’s not like anything goes.” I think there’s an enormous amount of projections in this domain onto the French—onto the Latin people in general, it seems, certainly onto the French—some of which is going to be accurate and some of which is the fantasy of the person who expresses it, or the person that is being designated.

CP: Of course. Well, I think we’re probably going to get into that a lot more [and] in a lot more depth, instead of just talking about the French accent in terms of projections, as we get into your content. So the first thing that I would love to lead with is, you speak a lot about desire. And it seems to me that—especially since our audience is primarily women, we address women, the modern woman, who’s moving it and shaking it in so many different ways—what I’m finding a lot is that women in relationships—and I don’t want to make a generalization with statistics and all that, but anecdotally, I find often women are in relationships where they’ve either lost the desire or the desire has shifted, or they don’t even have juice for desire after working a full day. I’m curious to see—this is such a cornerstone to relationships, and I would love to hear your take on, first of all, what do you mean by desire? And how is that such a foundation for healthy relationships?

EP: So I really like the fact that you start by asking me to define the term that you want, so that really know what we are talking about. Now, we could pick a scientific definition for “desire,” we could pick a behavioral, a hormonal—they’re both ways to enter. I tend to think more of it being an existential term, if you want, and I tend to think about the nature of desire because it is probably one of the most important elements of modern life. Meaning, desire is to own the wanting. Desire is the expression of the sovereign self. Desire points to free will. You can force people to do, you can never force them to desire. It is the ultimate expression of our free identity, if you want.

And in the realm of intimate relationships, sexual desire has become central. Because this is the first time in the history of humankind that we are meant to remain sexually connected to ourselves and our partner. Not because we want multiple children and we’re having sex for procreation, nor, at least in the West, some of us privileged women know that sexuality is just a marital duty for women.

So it is all about, “Do I want it? Do I feel like it? Do I want this to be part of my experience?” And we know that part of the real challenges for women in relationships in general is this dialectic of, “How do I connect to you without losing me? And how do I stay connected with me without losing you?” Hence the notion of staying attached to one’s own wanting, to one’s own preferences, desires, is challenging for a woman in relationships throughout.

CP: I love what you’re saying. You own the wanting. Because it’s one thing to recognize it, “Oh, I want this,” but there’s something really proactive in the owning [of] it.

EP: Yes, because it points to agency. What I’m saying that’s very typical for woman is that if the other person wants, she often knows what she wants because the other person has said, “Oh, I wanted to go to this place,” and then she says, “No, I don’t really want [to go to] this place.” Now she has a better sense of what she wants because she’s positioning it in the reaction, in response, in contrast to what the other person wants. It’s like she [can’t] elicit it on her own. And then, once she already knows what she wants, the second challenge is to actually drive it, to stay connected to it, to not lose it in the transaction with another person.

This is true for sexual desire, this is true for one’s overall sense of self, of, “How do I take care of others, be it in my job, be it in my family, my family of origin or my current family, or in my relationships? And how do I not lose touch with my own?” It is a real challenge, and I would say this, as women in business, as women in professional life, as women in other realms of familial obligation, it’s just essential to the challenge of [a woman knowing her] identity. How does she navigate self and other? How does she know what she wants when she sees the wanting of others, the wanting of her friends, of her mother, of her children, of her boss, of her colleagues?

CP: God, this is so deep, I feel it in my own life, too. Do men just have a healthier relationship with desire because it’s more connected to them and not reliant on the other? What do you see as a trend there?

EP: Great question, great question. Let me put it to you in a different language. Traditionally, we would see that women are socialized for connection and men are socialized for autonomy. If women are socialized for connection, then their greatest resource is in their ability to connect to others, but they’re greater vulnerability is about staying connected to themselves. If men are socialized for autonomy, then their resource is their ability to hold on to themselves. They know what they want, they can go and get it. But their vulnerability is in the fear that they would lose their autonomy if they create intimacy.

So these are dialectics. We all struggle with the same two things: we all need connection and separateness. We all need security and freedom. But I would say that, if you look at general socialization, you will find that the vulnerability for men is not how to deal with their autonomy, but how to deal with the fear of the loss of autonomy in the realm of the relationships. For women, the difficulty is not how to connect but how to stay connected with themselves.

CP: Yes. I’m curious to know, once we’ve identified desire and we own it and we have some practices—I know you have an online workshop and an online course that you’re doing around desire that will have more practices in it, so I’m excited to hear more about that. But once we have practices in our lives that are staying connected to desire, how do we—is it possible to rekindle desire? First of all, is it possible for desire to die? And then, can it be rekindled? Because that’s another thing that I’m seeing, that once that goes, it’s like, “Well, you can never get it back.” It’s like a slippery fish, sometimes, this desire.

EP: Right. I would describe it differently. Yes, desire dies. But I wouldn’t say “dies.” Sometimes it dies. Generally, I would say desire is more like the moon. It goes through intermittent [phases]. Desire ebbs and flows. Many of us lose connections, to ourselves, to our sense of excitement, to our arousal, to our playfulness, to our aliveness, to our brightness. We all lose it. The difference is that some of us know what to do to resuscitate it. The ebb and flow is not that—we don’t disconnect from ourselves, but that we know how to reconnect.

A way of asking the question that I find very, very powerful, that I borrow from the work of Gina Ogden, a colleague of mine—who has written wonderful stuff, by the way, on women and sexuality and female desire. She asks the question like this: “I’ve turned myself off by” or “I shut down when.” Broadly, it’s not just sexually. It’s not the same question as, “You turn me off when” and “What turns me off is.”

They basically talk about, “When I stop thinking about myself, when I don’t take care of myself, when I don’t go in nature, when I don’t see my friends, when I stop singing and playing the music I love, when I am disconnected from my partner, when I’m disconnected from my body, when I don’t like my body, when I’m loathing it.” It’s really about [a woman’s] relationship with herself, fundamentally around two areas: the area of self-worth and the area of donation-giving for pleasure.

And when you ask the question in reverse: “I turn myself on when,” “I unleash my desires when,” “I awaken myself how, by,” rather than, “You turn me on when,” or “What turns me on is. They will tell you the same thing in reverse. “I awaken my desire when I think of myself, when I take care of myself, when I pamper myself, when I give myself time to go and do the things that I enjoy, that make me feel alive, that make me feel worthy, that make me feel good.” From that place of aliveness, of [connecting] with the erotic self, flows the desire.

CP: And what about in relationship? Now you have two people. It’s one thing to stay connected to your own desire and to realize the ebbs and flows—which I love, by the way, because it just gives us permission to be human, and to have that ebb and flow is a wonderful analogy. But what about in relationship? You’ve got two people, two desires, right?

EP: Yes, yes, yes. The first thing that jumps to me—I haven’t even let you finish the question, so maybe I should actually listen to you.

CP: No! Jump in! It’s a conversation, let me hear it! Cut me off, I love it.

EP: What jumps out immediately, of course, is that in relationships, one of the things that [you will] notice with women, in line with what I described before, is that she knows more of what she wants when it’s in a position of what the other person wants. Because when she wants what the other one wants, she often wonders, “Is this really what I want? Or am I just trying to please the other?” She doesn’t know how to know what she wants when the other one wants the same and still feel like it’s hers.

So as a result, she is often much more vocal about what she doesn’t like. With desire, you can’t desire not something. You always desire something. You cannot form your desire as a negation. “I desire not to feel something,” no. “I desire to feel that other thing.” And that is where it really is a challenge in life. So often, with a partner, she finds herself articulating her dislikes, her criticisms, the shortcomings, rather than what she would like instead.

Now, any criticism is a wish in disguise. But it is also much [harder] to actually articulate our wish or our desire than to articulate our frustrations about the lack thereof. And yet, we women, in that sense, we are masters. So that’s one of the things that she needs to learn if she wants to stay connected to the other person. Why? Because if she just becomes critical and negative, the other person stops listening to her wish and only [makes] a defensive stance toward her criticism and her frustration. So that’s when you get a classic disconnect.

The second thing is that sometimes she needs to learn to create boundaries, to give herself that time, to give herself the things that are just privacy with herself, if you want, or what I like to call “intimacy with herself,” so that she can also have an intimacy with the partner. And then the next thing is that sometimes she need to challenge what I think is one of the great problems of modern intimacy, which is that she often turns to one person to give her everything. That in itself becomes a source of frustration. So it’s not that she can’t express her desires, it’s that she comes with all her desires to one person, and basically would like this one man or woman to satisfy what normally an entire community needs to be built for.

So what I often find myself doing is asking her, “Who else is in your world? Who populates your inner world? Who do you reach out to? Who do you communicate [with] about what? And can we dismantle this big, romantic ideal that there will be one person who will basically become an extension of you?” Because when that happens, that in itself becomes the death of the erotic in the most unanticipated way.

A lot of it is about integrating rather than fragmenting, but at the same time, not integrating to a point of it being so intimate that she has not sense of boundaries. Now, a basic example, a typical, daily example, is, at what point did she stop cleaning, organizing, fixing, doing, being instrumental, and just say, “I’m sitting down now and just doing nothing, or reading, or listening to music,” whatever, just enjoying. At what point did she say, “Enough work, now me,” rather than, “I have to be perfect. Once I have been perfect, then I have earned my desire. Now I’m allowed to want, because I’ve done everything that other people expect.”

Many women in this age of perfection have to really learn to just say, “It’s enough for today. And now me,” rather than, “Wait!” She’s exasperated or frustrated or something beyond, and then she doesn’t know how to experience desire because then she experiences deserving. Now she’s in the realm of resentment and now she doesn’t just say “I want,” she says, “I deserve,” right? “Deserving” is wanting for [a] prize. It’s the people who don’t really feel that they are allowed to want so they have to be [at the end] to finally say, “Now me!” But then they say it with such violence and with such an aggression that they can shake up the whole house.

That’s what happens to her many times in relationships. She doesn’t say it earlier when it’s just, “Hey, I feel like it, I want to,” she screams it, “I deserve! I’ve had it, I’ve had enough!” And then she blames him or her or whoever else is around her for not being allowed to say this sooner. No, no. She just doesn’t feel like she can because she first needs to be perfect, have it all done, and then she feels that desire is a reward rather than desire is basically part of her human right.

CP: Oh my God, does this sound familiar! I mean, I feel this way too, that perfection. I never linked it with desire. It’s so interesting because I think that when we’re living in that loop of perfection, then that criticism can’t help but spill out. Because we’re putting so much on ourselves, we bring those standards to our relationships, and then it’s nothing but lack and criticism and not good enough on the inside and on the outside.

EP: Correct. But it’s really kind of an epidemic at this point, yes? I mean, you’ve got the most confident, successful, powerful group of women in history walking around constantly with an inner voice of “flawed, and critical, and not enough.” It’s just tragic. And, I should add, resentful, because, “How can you sit down when there is so much to do? Don’t you see?” But why don’t you just sit down? Does it really matter? Is that going to be written on your epitaph? “You cleaned when,” or “You organized and labeled when,” or whatever? Or, “You deprived yourself nicely”?

It’s a very interesting thing to help women allow themselves the permission to experience pleasure, which is really where desire resides. To experience freedom, to experience autonomy, and all of that, we [end] up instantly feeling selfish and guilty.

CP: Well, what’s interesting about what you’re saying is that because we’re kind of hardwired to touch into our desire through the other, it’s hard to get in touch with that. It’s like a muscle we have to flex to find the source of our desire within. Because I think a lot of us are like, “All right, my partner—man or woman, whoever we’re in relationship with—OK, make me desire you,” or we’re waiting for something to spark. “Oh, you’re not attractive. I don’t desire him anymore. He just sits on the couch.” You know? But if there’s a way we can rekindle the desire without ourselves, without that other, I think that’s kind of the thought.

EP: So here’s the trick of this. This is so essential, that sentence you just mentioned. “Make me want,” she says to him. “Make me want.” But you can’t. You can’t make someone want. You can make all kinds of things happen, and then you can elicit a condition for which her wanting will emerge. But you can’t make someone want. Woman abdicate that. Now, interestingly, and you can really see it in the realm of the erotic and sex, but it is so clearly [that] he can want as much he wants if she does not. If she’s not into it, if she doesn’t like herself, there will be zero response. The shop is closed.

There’s a beautiful term, it’s complicated, but it says it all. It’s called “final janaya.” My colleague Marta Meana, who’s the greatest researcher on women and sexuality [says] if she doesn’t like herself, she does not understand why anybody else would want to touch her, except if you forgot to put on your glasses.

CP: Oh God! Right.

EP: Right? So she has to like herself first. It’s very interesting. She has to like herself first. We rarely talk about women’s narcissism, but in fact, in the realm of sexuality, it is probably one of the most important facts. In heterosexual couples, I hear plenty of men say, “Nothing turns me on more than to see her turned on.” I have yet to hear a woman say that. No, she doesn’t get turned on because he’s turned on. She’s gets turned on because she is the turn on. That’s a very different premise. And she can only allow herself to feel that when she feels good enough about herself, otherwise she blocks it. On the kind of dual track of the erotic and of desire, which is the excitation track and the inhibition track, she will really shut it down and inhibit it.

So how does she develop a better liking of herself which then allows her to welcome the attraction, the desire, of another person? And it’s not through the relationship—it’s through the self-liking. It’s the opposites. It’s like, because women are socialized so much to be relational, to actually be able to let go and be freer sexually, they have to not be as relational as much as they have to be in relationship with themselves. It’s the opposite.

And it’s the same opposite in sex for men. As much as men are socialized—for me, hardwired is cultural. I’m not really talking here about evolutional or biological [terms] as much as I think of it in cultural terms. But he seems socialized to be able to more autonomous and fearless and competitive and self-sufficient and self-sustaining. The difficulty is on the connection scale.

Sexually, you will find that men are often very much thinking about her in order to feel good about himself, whereas she needs to feel good about herself in order to be able to think about him. It’s the flip side. What works in our relational life is turned upside-down in order to liberate our erotic life.

CP: Well, I mean, I feel like the implications—here we are, we’re in an age, a new feminism, so to speak. There’s definitely a rise in the demand for feminine leadership, and yet I think a lot of what holds us back as women is this lack of ownership on that individual level of our own desire, and also lack of self-acceptance. We’re working on freeing ourselves from this perfection and actually kind of falling in love with ourselves so that we are a turn on, not just in terms of our relationships, but that we can have that juice and charisma and energy, frankly, to lead in a way that’s empowerful and impactful.

EP: But then we will need to learn that our appreciation of ourselves doesn’t become perfect, but more like [how] Brené Brown talks about it, because we welcome the gift of imperfection. If we actually are more compassionate with ourselves, we accept our imperfections, we’re not agreeing to sell everything, and we seem like ourselves and can even get a good laugh at it, then we will be in a much better place.

I think what happens—you know, in the Boomer generation, the first wave of feminism, something in particular happened here. Here I’m going to bring a cultural observation, because it’s very different from Belgium, where I’m from. From a European model, American feminism really emphasized sameness. We are the same, and therefore, we should earn the same, we should have the same ability to climb the ladder, we should have the same access. Whereas the European model actually really said, “Look, we are different. Therefore, create institutions, social support, maternity care, family leave, child care, that allows us to then go out and do what the men are doing so that we can work as well. But first, you have to provide institutional support, otherwise we cannot be equal.”

So in order to be equal, we have to acknowledge our difference versus the model here, which was, “We are the same, therefore we are equal.” And from that point on, I think there has been a divide inside American women between the feminine and the powerful, or the feminine and the professional, if you want. It’s that you can’t really integrate those two, you are either smart and powerful and this and that, or you are feminine, and they are separated, they are segregated from each other. And if you’re going to do the feminine, it’s not because you’re really experienced in that integrated way, it’s more because you’re performing femininity, you’re performing seduction. You’re putting on the clothes, you’re putting on the makeup, but it’s like a costume. It’s not really an extension of who you are, and it goes with you in every place, because you’ve decided to put it on for the occasion, for the role, for the gig, for the job, for the deal.

It’s really crippling, I think, to many women to have to constantly decide, because then, if I’m going to work with the other one, to then go to work with the powerful one, and that powerful one is a neutered one—right? It’s neutered. But of course, it also is more masculine. I come home, and it’s very difficult to put the other one back on. It’s not like it’s just a matter of taking off the clothes. It’s a shifting.

There used to be a period where you have all these women in suits and sneakers on the subways in New York. It’s like, they wear the sneakers and then they wear the high heels shoes that you put on, but it’s like, no! Pick one that is comfortable that you can go everywhere that is who you are! Why this state? This is the racing shoe for the race, literally the race, the professional race, and then the other shoe for the connection. It doesn’t work this way, in my experience. It’s really created a much bigger split that is much more difficult afterwards to reconnect with, and so people lose it, and they lose it and two, three, five, ten years later, they suddenly say, “Where has that part of me gone? I’ve been in the other world and I’ve numbed it.”

So from there, I begin to think, “OK.” That’s the question you had for me before: how do we rekindle desire? We rekindle desire by rekindling, first of all, the permission to think about oneself and not in the productive, instrumental way. The erotic is totally unproductive. You accomplish nothing. It’s just a state of aliveness and of vitality and of sensuality. It’s that, and you help women to really give themselves the permission for that.

And then, without feeling that they are selfish, nonproductive, all of that, that they’re wasting their time and this whole shtick, then you give them permission for pleasure. And pleasure, you know, it’s for its own sake. You don’t accomplish much—without having the Puritanical model of pleasure, that’s it good for the senses and good for the body and good for the skin. It’s fun! It’s nice, it feels good, it doesn’t have to be good for anything. It just has to feel good.

It’s a very different concept of pleasure. Pleasing oneself, the idea of pleasing herself, and to do it in an embodied fashion that includes her sensuality, not just that she pleases herself by stuffing herself, or she pleases herself when she takes four days away once a year with her girlfriends in this “escape from my life” kind of version. Nothing wrong with that, but something needs to come home with her, too.

And then you being [to] also talk about sexuality. Because we are sexual beings, and sexuality isn’t how often she has sex and how long the sex lasts and how many orgasms she has. It’s basically a connection with her erotic self. It’s a much broader definition of sexuality, one where we talk about reaching desire, and that’s the progression that she needs to go through.

CP: What about—I mean, you just totally articulated a trend that has been happening, but I think that we, through these conversations, through your work, through a lot that’s happening out in the world, women are starting to protest, because it’s actually just inhumane to live eight hours, nine hours, ten hours out of your day as a subhuman being with only half a body. I mean, when you cut out your femininity, and you’re a woman—or as a man, too—you live with just one polarity. It’s just not living in the full human experience.

But when we do that, I guess my question here is, what’s the male implication of that? Because what we’re seeing is, as women are stepping more and more into leadership and taking on these roles, that there’s just not—because they’re doing that, it’s really hard to come home, and then there’s two men at the house, or there’s too much masculine. Both men and women running on an access of masculine and coming home and trying to have a juicy experience, both intimately and just in day-to-day relationship. It’s not happening. So you just described, on the women’s side, how to work on that. What about the men? What’s happening there that you’re seeing that they could flip?

EP: I think the first thing that is happening on the men’s side, which is to the advantage of many, is that [for] the younger men, the Millennial men, it’s very different from his Boomer father. Often, for that matter, 50 percent of Millennial men grew up in single-parent households of women. So they have already been at the table with a woman their entire life who helped [them] develop a much more emotionally fluent language. My experience in working with Millennial men is they can talk and they have access to their inner life in ways that Boomer men just could never access. Oh, not never, but much less. That’s one.

But in any case, your question is a key question because the lives of women will never change until the men change. And that means their life has to change, too. So I think that, traditionally, everything was divided around gender. And it was a rather dualistic model and there were only two kinds, and it’s male and female. And there were very few models for what men can be like, and just a few more models about what females can [be] like.

And we are definitely entering a queer spectrum, which is a word that some people are very familiar with and others less. But it is a spectrum that is much more fluid, and [many of] the decisions and roles and responsibilities are going to be created not by gender but by competence. There are relationships where the women are way better at going out there, taking the money, building the companies, or getting the positions, and the men are actually much more competent at being home. They are more patient, they are more empathic, they are much more connected to the [needs] of the child. And women will need to be able to accept that and not think that they should do both, that it’s OK. They can be [a] wonder woman by taking on the parts of you that are more competent about, resourceful about.

So that is going to be a whole new division. I think we’re seeing more and more of it, but I think it’s very difficult for men and women to let go of their traditional bastions of power. It is as hard for men to see women break the ceiling as it is for women seeing men become better at the domestic and at the child rearing than they ever thought they were. They want his help, but they can’t accept that maybe he’s actually better at it. And maybe that’s not their natural inclination, and that motherhood is not an instinct, it is learned. Some women are better at learning to run companies than to take care of diapers and babies and children and schools and all of that. So that’s the first thing. We really need to develop much greater fluidity and flexibility around gender role and organizations.

The second thing is that every company these days is talking about emotional intelligence. Soft power. Empathy. There was a time when it was all about competition, ambition, fearlessness, pushing through. And there are many, many reason why we need empathy to enter into the training of staff, but it’s really interesting, isn’t it, that this traditionally female attribute is now on the program of any—you know, as a speaker in many companies, I can tell you I’ve been brought in to talk about emotional intelligence, and to talk about relational intelligence, because everybody understood that soft power isn’t soft. It’s soft because it operates differently, but it is “power” that is the key word here.

So what we’re seeing is the masculine is entering the domestic but the feminine is also entering the professional world of all sorts. And then there is going to be how is [it working]. How does the man, who is more the stay-at-home dad or who is the person who owns less money or who is the one who has a more flexible a job and therefore is the one who does the shopping and all of that, remain connected to his masculinity? And how is the woman, who is making decisions the whole day, remaining connected to her sexuality? There’s a reason 45 million women read 50 Shades, isn’t there? And let’s put it like this: the women who are submissive and subjugated in their life probably did not get turned on by it. It’s the women who are in positions of power and decision-making who love fantasies of surrender.

So women are going to see that the erotic imagination is going to complement, it’s going to bring out, the scripts and the experiences that we wish to have in our life that we don’t have, necessarily, at work or at home. So we got very good, to our erotic minds, at complementing the missing pieces. And that’s what is going to take place, I think, over the next two decades.

CP: And by that you mean that we will be developing more faculty of the imagination and being focused on that, bringing desire, and that will craft a little bit more or have more of a play in how we relate?

EP: We’re going to play with power, the same way that you play with power in business, and at work, you play with power. Every relationship is an interplay of power exchange. Every relationship, from a child to a parent, from two partners. There is no relationship without power dynamics, and there is no sexual relationship without power dynamics. And when you constantly do yin yang, when one person is too much in a decision-making role, then we complement it with a more soft surrender role. When one person is in a more empathic role, then they can complement it with a more decision-making role. You’re going to see this, and it’s going to happen in the erotic and in the relational and in the professional. On all three levels.

CP: Right. What were you saying about the imagination having a hand in that?

EP: Because one the ways that you complement the missing parts of your life is through your imagination. I mean, it’s our fantasy life, our imagination, our inner world, that creates the realities that are not necessarily available, right? If I’m young, I fantasize [about] being older. If I’m older, I think about being younger. These are products of our imagination. If I fear death, I connect to my aliveness, because I’m imaging the forces of life inside of me. If I’m masculine, I will fantasize experiences that draw out the feminine. If I’m more feminine, I will fantasize experiences that emphasize the masculine in me.

The erotic mind has amazing ways of doing that. If I am constantly making decisions, I will fantasize experiences where other people decide for me, and for once I don’t have to say anything. If I am constantly in the situation where other people tell me what to do, I will fantasize moments where I get to decide exactly what I want and everybody says, “Amen, yes.” [Laughs]

We have a way, through our erotic mind, to create experiences that bifurcate the pixels of the roles we’re in. If I’m a shy person, I rarely fantasize [about] being shy. If I’m a shy person, I will fantasize being bold and daring. If I’m very power and I have responsibility over a lot of people, I will fantasize situations where other people seem responsible for me and I don’t have to think about anyone. If I’m constantly thinking about others, I will want a place where others think of me or I think of me. It’s not an either/or, it’s really about a dance, where we create with our mind the experiences [that] we don’t have enough [of] in our reality.

CP: Yes. Oh, it’s just lovely, I love that use of imagination. It’s real. What you’re talking about is real. I mean, I know it’s imaginative and it’s compensating, but at the same time, it’s actually providing a very real purpose in our lives.

EP: It’s not compensating, it’s complementing.

CP: Complementing, yes.

EP: It’s complementing. Anyone here who has ever been in the presence of children knows that the child cannot live in their reality without augmenting and complementing their reality through play, and play is every fantasy situation that is not the one that they live in reality. It’s no different for adults, we just don’t think about it like that, and many of us lose it.

CP: Or we discard that whole part of our lives as daydreaming or not worthwhile.

EP: Childish, you have to be the adult, you need to grow up, all of that. And then we become busy worker bees, lamenting the loss of our sense of aliveness.

CP: I really feel like we could go on and on. You are an amazing woman in this field. It’s just an honor to talk to you, and you have so much content, it’s super inspiring. I would say one more question here: what you’re basically saying—and you were talking about this, we’re entering into a queer, sort of genderless era, and I agree with you on that. And there’s a lot of things in your work where a lot of the boundaries that have held us together, almost, in a society, albeit in an unhealthy way, are breaking down. And there’s a groundlessness, I feel, coming and that we’re in, with regards to our relationships and also who [we are] as beings, as gender beings, as women, as men.

What do you recommend for women, especially, to grab onto in this era of, “chaos” is kind of a strong word, but an era of new? Everything’s new, everything’s being re-created, and we’re rethinking things, especially with your perspective here. What’s something solid that we can hold onto that we can fall back on and know that it’s always going to be there?

EP: People. People. Community. That’s the only thing we have in this world. We don’t have the traditional pillars, we don’t have the models. What we have is conversation, which is really what your gathering is about, creating real-life, embodied experiences where people come together and discuss all the dilemmas of love and living.

And in those conversations, bit by bit, we dismantle and we challenge the old hierarchy. It’s time for women to be angry without being considered bitches or aggressive or masculine. It’s time for them to not constantly worry about being liked. It’s time that they think that they can ask for the same amount that the men are asking. It’s time that she feel that she can be seductive without thinking that she’s a slut. It’s time that she can integrate femininity and power as part of her success and her activation story.

It’s all these divisions, basically, dismantling the patriarchy, if you want to put a name on it. But what will replace it isn’t a matriarchy and it’s not genderless, it’s gender-fluid. It’s different. We are just living way too long these days to just abide by one model. And they understand it in the professional world, in the business world, the tech world. Everything is about multiplicity. When it comes to gender identity and relationships, we are left with very little monolithic, narrowly thought out models that don’t serve us anymore. They just don’t serve us.

So what happens is that people get blamed for not succeeding, right? You get blamed because you’re divorced, but nobody ever questions if the model of marriage is so sound. Why do we think marriage is a sound arrangement? And the people who don’t succeed, they’re the failures? And [it’s the same] for everything else. If you can succeed with children, it’s not because there’s a lack of childcare and a lack of good schools and a lack of this and that. It’s because you [know how] to juggle your schedule.

And so we are privatizing social problems and making the individual responsible for it. And I think that if women come together, the biggest challenge is not to think that it’s just a matter of each woman on their own, coming up with societal solutions to society’s problems. They need to be connective solutions for connective problems, in which she is a piece of the voice, that she’s not responsible on her own to deal with the lack of support that the system should provide her. To me, that is going to be the biggest shift that women can offer these days. [It’s] actually a challenge to the excesses of individualism.

CP: Well, thank you so much for your time.

EP: Is that too abstract? [Laughs]

CP: No! Are you kidding? You have a way of bringing the abstract into the visceral. I don’t know how else to explain it, but it feels very practical, and yet very grounded in a mental lineage. I don’t know how else you want to say that, but you’ve done a lot of research, and it feels very accessible. I so appreciate that. Thank you so much.

EP: Thank you. I was thinking as I was saying it, I can’t even tell you, just [from] this week, with the amount of women I met, how often my eyes fill up. I’m thinking, “You carry [a load], don’t you, and you actually think you should. And you still think that you’re not carrying it well enough.” I’m thinking, “My God, can we stop personalizing difficulties that are systemic, as if they’re your personal challenge?” It’s just a matter of management and organization. It’s not like that, it’s really bigger than you, and we have to remember that it’s bigger than you, and then all come together and address it and make those changes. And then our lives will be better and so will the [lives] of the people around us, because we will be less upset. And rather than thinking we’re upset because we can’t do it all, we will be upset because we are thinking that we should do it all.

CP: Amen, sister. May it be so.

EP: [Laughs]

CP: Like I said, there could be more here, but [I’m] so much looking forward to spending more time with you at Emerging Women Live in San Francisco in October. Until then, take good care, and we’ll see you very soon. Thank you so much!

EP: Thank you very much. I look forward to being there as well.

CP: OK, bye-bye, Esther.

She launched RA MA TV, a new virtual media platform that makes Kundalini Yoga and yogic lifestyle accessible to people all over the world, as well as the indie yoga music label RA MA Records with a mission to trailblaze a new genre of music for mass consumption-in and out of the yoga space, on the dance floor, radio and beyond.  Guru Jagat was a featured presenter at the 2015 Emerging Women Live.

In today’s episode, Guru Jagat and I spoke about:

• The story behind her name and what exactly she means by Kundalini
• Why her spiritual technology is so great for women and why Kundalini is
• Why she has brought business into Kundalini Practice
• How women are hardwired to make a difference in the world
• Waking up every day with a conscious decision of how you are going to live that day

Here is my conversation “The Technology of Aliveness” with the powerful and energetic: Guru Jagat.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript:

OK, hello, and welcome, Guru Jagat! How are you?

Guru Jagat: Doing really well, thank you for having me on the show today.

CP: I’m so excited to do a deep dive into the mysteries and the practicalities of Kundalini yoga with you, and your whole spiritual—I guess when I say “dharma,” that’s probably the wrong lineage, right?

GJ: No, dharma’s not specific to lineage.

CP: Right? The Buddhists don’t own dharma, right?

GJ: They don’t, they don’t. I use that word all the time. It means what you came here for and what you’re uncovering that you came here for.

CP: So I know that you have been on tour quite a bit, and you’re expanding centers and you’re traveling with your work. You were just in Europe? Am I right?

GJ: Yes, we were just touring Europe with RA MA TV and with some other Kundalini yoga—there’s a big Kundalini yoga festival that happens in France. We also took a huge group of people to all the mystical sites in a southern cave, which was a very powerful experience, like, life-changing.

CP: Wow. That sounds great. Kundalini yoga and the south of France—that’s something I would definitely sign up for.

GJ: Yes, not bad!

CP: Not bad, right? Why don’t we start with—because some people are listening and they’re like, “What is Kundalini yoga?” And I even want to go back a little bit—and maybe you can figure out the right way to talk about this, but your name is Guru Jagat. That is your name. And I would love to hear the story around that, and I think when we first talked, when I met you, you had such a strong energy. You definitely feel like you carry the weight of that name, to me, just meeting you. I didn’t know what to expect. But maybe you can talk a little bit about the background and how you came to be doing what you’re doing, and where your name comes from. And we can start there.

GJ: Sure. Kundalini yoga, at its essence, is a technology of sound. And I believe that we’re really at the very surface, scratching the surface, of what sound in this age of technology is going to open up for us—this age of space travel and the whole universe and our whole daily perspective, and also world perspective, expanding so rapidly.

So Kundalini yoga at its basis has this sound technology, which you could call “mantra,” but really it’s just these codes, these sound codes. So Yogi Bhajan gave names that were destiny sound codes, we’ll call it. So when he gave me my name, I was really young, and everybody else was getting—it was one of those moments where everybody else was getting Tej and Jot and Prem, these sweet, simple names, and then it came to me and it was like, [deep voice] “Guru Jagat.” [Laughs]

CP: Right? [Laughs] It’s like, you’ve got to fill those shoes with a name like that, right?

GJ: [Laughs] You do! He wrote me a letter and I closed it and put it back in the envelope. I was like, “Hmm, I don’t know about all this.” So basically, in its essence, it’s a reminder, it’s a code that can be activated, of destiny. I think sometimes people get confused, because we just come from an age of people seeking gurus to take away their karma or to save them from themselves, and we know that didn’t necessarily work.

So we’re in a new age, and in this age, the sound guru, when you make it, when it crosses your own neurology, your lips, it actually activates that heightened consciousness in you. That’s the code of that sound current, so it means nothing around the kind of guru trips that we’ve seen in the spiritual world and the kind that we’ve come from. It’s really more about a self-initiation.

CP: Right. Got it. And I so appreciate that. I do feel that our conscious as human beings, just physically we evolve, our consciousness is evolving, and that the old standards of how we approach spirituality are evolving. I think there was a time and a place where the guru did take karmas. Not to get too esoteric, but I think they really did serve a purpose. Not that they don’t serve a purpose anymore, but I just wonder, doing some kind of Kundalini practice and dharma practice and meditation, if we’re actually creating a new system out there for spiritual unfoldment.

GJ: I feel that that’s definitely part of what’s happening on the planet. Don’t get me wrong, I believe strongly in having a human teacher, a guide you can show you through some of the realms of your own subconscious and places of blindness. I believe strongly in that, personally, and I have one and I also have a lineage. I feel that’s different than putting—people tried to pay Yogi Bhajan millions of dollars to initiate them in the ’70s, ’80s, ’90s, before he died. He was in Hollywood, so he had many stories of celebrities and rich people trying to pay him a bunch of money to “initiate” them, and he would just say over and over again, “We are now in a time of self-initiation.”

So it’s not to not have a lineage or to not have a teacher or even a guru, but that this is a time of self-intiation. You have to activate the practice and the revelation in ourselves through our practices, through our daily choices, to be more conscious, compassionate human beings. And I think that’s the difference, at least to me.

CP: Yes. I mean, here you are in LA, and I think it was last month, after we first met, [I] found this article on the “hot, cool, Kundalini yoga teacher taking LA by storm!” And there just seems to be so much energy and interest and excitement around this new form of yoga. And I think there’s a lot of mystery in it. I’ve done some classes, and I know I feel good, and I know that there’s some practices, but could you help us understand exactly what you mean by “Kundalini yoga”?

GJ: Sure, yes. I think when we get that word, “Kundalini,” it does create this kind of esoterism that is not necessarily necessary to participate in the practice. Now, the thing that’s beautiful about Kundalini yoga and Yogi Bhajan, the way that we delivered this great canon of teaching over 40 years, is that there are many different ways to participate in the technology. Just like I have an iPhone, I’m using it in a certain way, it does different things for my daily life, it makes my daily life easier in certain ways. Now, my mom just got her first iPhone, and she is participating in using it in a whole different way, but it’s the same technology.

That, to me, is a very similar thing to the way that Kundalini yoga—why it’s so practical and the mass appeal is growing by leaps and bounds. It’s in fact the biggest growing yogic movement, and I would like to say, consciousness on the planet, especially after traveling around all summer. Just seeing what’s happening and how people [are] touched, I’m feeling it more than I ever have. We’re at a tipping point, and there’s a great revolution of evolution happening on the planet. I’m very inspired right now.

In terms of Kundalini [and] how wonderfully practical it is, you can literally do—and this is kind of the book that I’m writing for Harper Collins, the essence of it. There are huge amounts of people on this planet who don’t want to wear spandex, who can’t touch their toes, who don’t want to do yoga, and I understand. I was one of those people. I resisted yoga for so long because the culture around it—and this was 20 years ago—was so irritating to me, and everybody was like, “Yes, I was just in India, and, like, you know.” It felt like a lot of white privilege.

CP: Yuck.

GJ: And a lot of snobbery and pretentiousness around it. And I was like, “I don’t want to do what these people are doing, if this is what yoga is.” Because I didn’t know what yoga was. I was like, “I don’t want to do it.” So one of things in one of my huge messages around Kundalini is, it’s so mass-appeal because somebody can just be sitting in a hospital bed, and can’t move any of their limbs or their body, [and] they can do a pranayama that’s going to give them energy to heal, energy to face whatever their having to face. That’s going to be something practical for them.

[Also,] I work with professional athletes. I was just in the studio in Boulder, and all the athletes there—it can be participated in by very athletic bodies who want athletic performance or want greater mind focus, or by business people. There’s a plethora of things you can engage in in the technology. I think that’s one of the great mass-appeal parts of it, and why it is taking the planet by storm. One of the reasons.

And then, if you’re an esoteric like myself—I love the esoteric, it’s my favorite—if you are that way and your mind works that way, you can get all esoteric on it, but you don’t have to. And that’s what I love about it. The essence of how I describe it is, the technology, it’s just like the iPhone. I think about what the iPhone or what these smartphones have done for us in terms of the evolution of how we move through the world and how connected we are, and can be used in so many different ways. It’s very similar to that.

So in terms of what we’re used to with yoga, like Downward Facing Dog and Chaturanga, the things that we encounter in a gym or just a regular, standard Westernized yoga class, that is kind of a far cry from what the actual essence of yoga is in all lineages. We do physical practice so we can have enough energy to command our mind so that our mind works for us and we’re not a slave to it. That’s kind of the basis.

CP: So the way I think of Kundalini is—we’ve got the real physical yoga, and I kind of put the energy body in the physical, in between consciousness and the physical body. It’s kind of an in-between position. But Kundalini seems to work with consciousness, the energy of our human existence, as well as the body. Is it more energetic or working with energy and meridians and things like that? Or is there another way to approach that energy component of it?

GJ: It definitely—I don’t think it should be more energetic than other yogas. I just think the Westernization and the dilution of what the yogic teachings are have become that. But I don’t think it’s about—I actually was an Ashtangi and I had lots of experience in different lineages, and I think the pure essence of yogic practice, on whatever level, whether you’re doing a pranayama or you’re doing something super physical or you’re doing a meditation, the essence of it is all the same.

Now, Yogi Bhajan said—and this is also why I think the Kundalini practice is so modern—is that hatha or hatha lineages of yoga take about 22 years to master. And we’re in the nature of changing so rapidly that I got my phone stolen while I was in Europe, and when I got back—it was a new phone, mind you—to America, when it replaced, it had a whole new operating system. Literally everything was new, and that’s within a month. So that’s how quickly everything is changing. I think we’re so used to it, all the updates. We’re just going so fast, we don’t even realize that.

But the reason that Kundalini’s so modern is, within 30 seconds, within a minute, within three minutes, and then, if you want to get crazy, 11 minutes or something longer, you can make a dramatic shift in how you feel, your endocrine system secretions, your hormonal balance, your organs. You don’t need 22 years to master the system, and even though there’s something beautiful and classic about that, who has the time?

CP: Right. Oh my God.

GJ: I don’t.

CP: Plus the hour and a half Ashtanga classes. I mean, I remember those days.

GJ: I know. [Laughs]

CP: You know, 5:30 in the morning. Oh yes.

GJ: Exactly.

CP: OK, so I think we get an understanding. I’d love to see how this applies more as we get into the content and the applicability of it. You do a lot of work in application of these technologies, and not exclusively—I know that it’s not exclusive—but you have a lot for women. Can you talk a little bit about how and why this, as you say, spiritual technology is really right for women and really right for women at this time?

GJ: Yes. The men used to complain a lot back when Yogi Bhajan was teaching in the early days, because he would take the women for eight weeks every year to train them, to take them away from their mother duties, from their professional duties, and he would do this thing called “ladies’ camp.” It was basically a training ground for new type of woman on the planet. I now know more than every why he did that, and why he put so much, really, the big thrust of his effort and teaching, toward the women. Because him, the Dalai Lama, many other teachers have said it in different ways, but the change in consciousness on this planet is rooted in the change of consciousness in the Western woman. Not even in women, but the Western woman.

So I feel like, a lot of times, things like that end up getting fed into this subconscious man-hating stuff. I talk about this a lot because of whatever unprocessed stuff we have about our fathers or whatever as women. And so it’s really part of my gift with my own connection to these women’s teachings, to use them as a way to lift up all of humanity. And because women do hold certain keys of auric, energetic responsibility around their families and around their workplaces and around their relationships, if we upgrade, if we step up, if we stop being competitive, if we start to love ourselves, if we create security in women’s systems—I said this to a group of people in Montreal a couple months ago, and I said, “What would happen if every woman on this planet felt good about herself?” And someone went, “Armageddon!” [Laughs]

CP: [Laughs]

GJ: Which just tickled me, because think about that. To create secure women who are not playing into a huge amount of hypnotic programming that comes from the media and comes from our programming and conditioning as children and the whole educational system—to create a group of women who have that kind of security and kindness and compassion and true sisterhood, it’s a revolution. So that’s one of the reasons why I’m so committed.

And also, these teachings give you a choice. They give you a choice, as a woman, to not buy the aging anxiety, Botox train of numbing yourself out so you can look a certain way and forgetting who you really are and your true power, the whole thing. It gives you some choices so you can—if you do choose that, which is fine, I’m all about whatever choice is an educated choice and comes from an [educated] space, then you can choose it in that space of integrity rather than feeling like it’s our last choice to keep our husbands and try to scurry toward the finish line in some way. It’s desperate and it’s sad.

CP: Yes. Well, it’s reactionary, it’s not sourced from an original place from within us. Yes, I see that a lot. So what are you seeing as women come to you for your teachings? And I know you have a big following in LA and you’re opening a place here in Boulder, which there’s so much buzz about. And it’s not all women, but a lot of women. What is it that you’re seeing that they are getting the most—or what are they bringing that you feel like needs to be addressed the most? You talked about [being] reactionary and trying to get out of that being told how to be a woman in the world. What else are you seeing?

GJ: I feel like the first thing that happens when a group of women come together—and I’m curious to see your take on this—[is] there has to be a disarming process because of the amount of shielding and defense mechanisms we’ve created around being women and growing up in the ages that we grew up in, and the whole institutions of marriage and motherhood, then all of the institutions of how to be in the workplace and feminism and post-feminism. I mean, these are a lot of hangovers we’re dealing with.

So that’s a first thing that I see, that there’s a decompression process that happens in women’s nervous systems. Because we’re so subtle of beings as women, we are very subtle beings, that we have to have a little bit of time and space to allow this kind of decompression to happen. Which is why I like to bring the women into community, because that’s the first layer that has to come off. And then once that comes off, all hell breaks loose, which is the fun part, because then we’re able to start to see each other and learn from each other.

That’s one of the most profound things that I relish [about] having a group of women together. Without saying anything, it’s not a cognitive learning—although there’s that as well, of course—but without even saying anything, the nourishment and the saturation of intelligence and the being and the uniqueness of each woman’s nervous system and subtle body or energetic body start to marry into each other, and you just get this really beautiful quilt. It’s like a subtle body quilting circle. All of a sudden, we’re in this very unique mandala of gifts and talents, all of the things, the burdens that women are carrying with them and all the beautiful sacredness and complexities of being a woman in the modern world.

So that’s the first thing that happens. And from there, we really can get into some incredible healing. I think that’s one of the biggest things that happens, that [exhales], you see that exhale and you realize, “OK, I’m with women and that feels really good.” Because that’s one of the ways that I feel some of the powers that be have controlled things. You alienate the women from each other, you alienate men from each other, and we lose some aspect of this primordial power as a culture.

CP: I love that. I know that a lot of what you do, through the work that you do, is sort of retraining or reprogramming some of the—you alluded to this, years and millenniums of, I don’t want to say “atrocities,” but sort of system affronts toward women. We’ve got, in our bodies and in our brains, I don’t know if you want to call them “limiting beliefs,” but I know that you work with that. What is that about? Is it perspective that you give? How are you reprogramming that? And how are you helping women to out-create some of those long-term, thousands-of-years-old beliefs that I think are still holding us back no matter how much work we do? No matter how much therapy we get or how much self-help, it seems like we need to go a deeper layer, and it seems like with this technology, as you call it, it seems like it’s getting to something. I just don’t know how.

GJ: Well, I think on a very basic level, there are different realms of “how,” and I think the “how” is very important, because I think most of us are really sick of going to a spiritual modality or a satsang or something of the sort and being told, “Oh, it’s just about love.” But it’s like, “Well, how is it about love? Because you know what? I’m not feeling love right now. I’m feeling like I hate myself or I hate my husband or I hate my children or I hate my job,” or whatever the thing is. It’s like, “I want to know how it’s all about love. Because I’m fucked up right now,” you know?

I think “how” is my favorite part of the thing, because it really is important. We all need a “how.” We all need something that we can bite our teeth into and get going and practice. Because it takes some effort. It’s an inertia equation. Something’s been going one direction for whatever amount of time, it’s going to really—and I always say “the buck stops here”—it’s going to take some true inertic re-momentum, going into a different direction, to change things.

So one of the fundamental ways that we do that is through sound. Think about all the subtle sounds that we are constantly recapitulating about ourselves and about our lives and about our husbands. I always say to the women, “Just pay attention, for a week, of subtly what you’re thinking about your husband.” Because you will be very surprised. It’s usually not, “Oh, he’s the hero of my life and such a good father and an amazing creator.” It’s usually not that. It’s usually like, “He’s a motherfucker who didn’t take out the trash.”

CP: [Laughs]

GJ: It’s usually a lot of stuff. It’s not usually love and light. And so [it’s] the same thing with ourselves. I say to the women, “Pay attention to the first thought that crosses your screen once you’ve woken up in the morning.”

CP: Oh, that’s a good one!

GJ: It’s usually not, “I am the next Botticelli painting.” It’s not like, “I’m Venus on the half-shell and I represent the most incredible emanation of femininity.” It’s never that! It’s like, “I’m fat, I’m this, I’m that,” whatever the thing is. And so that’s one of the fundamentals: first of all, pay attention to the sounds that you are habitually creating, subconsciously creating, because sound isn’t just a verbal sound. Women mostly communicate nonverbally. And then, of course, we’re chit-chatters and we like to talk, but the actual communication is much more nonverbal.

So pay attention to that, and let’s replace that with a higher vibrational frequency. Yogi Bhajan said, “Victory is the mantra of the Aquarian age.” So replace it with victory. It doesn’t have to be another language, it can be in English. He gave us lots of English mantras, like, “I am bountiful, blissful, and beautiful.” Replace it with that, and just practice. Without having to do anything else, just practice all throughout just one day, replacing the negative thoughts about ourselves and others with, “I am bountiful, blissful, and beautiful,” or, “Victory,” something like that. You could do one of our other mantras that are in a secret language called Gurmukhi, but you don’t have to. It does not have to be fancy. English is just as powerful. So you start to do that, and you start to create a different vibrational flow in your system, and that will inevitably, and very quickly, change your perspective on your reality.

So that’s a basic thing. And then, of course, [there are] all of the meditations where we’re stimulating the frontal lobe. When you change the gray matter of the brain—this is now proven in science, there are many real, awesome, prolific scientific studies coming out on the meditator brains, people who meditate, and how the actual structure of their brain is different, how the reactivity of the amygdala and some of the stressor responses in the limbic system and the reptilian brain are totally different.

So that’s another way we start to reprogram, obviously, through the meditative practices. And then the breath is a major reprogrammer, because it actually goes into the genetic structure. It’s one of the only things. Your conscious breath can go into these genetic structures that were formed in utero and start to change those. And then there’s the physical practice, too. So there’s lots of layers of it, but fundamentally, I think it’s the vibrational codes.

CP: And by vibration and sound, you’re actually talking about saying these out loud or thinking them? Or both?

GJ: Thinking them, yes. I mean, you can say them out loud, but it’s not necessary. It’s not necessary at all. Just thinking them, instead of thinking the thing that you are habitually thinking, which is something around, “I suck, life sucks, and then I die,” something like that, or whatever it is. I know the one I always say is, “Same shit, different day.” That kind of stuff.

That’s so embedded in our culture. We’re constantly comparing ourselves to the massive broadcast of hypnotic imagery from the media. The people who are choosing those images are getting paid a lot of money to create unhappiness. And unhappiness is a way to control the masses. Unhappiness, dissatisfaction, self-hatred—why control the masses through military means when all you have to do is make them hate themselves? It’s easy.

CP: So you were saying that we’re in a time right now that’s super exciting for specifically this realm of work and Kundalini. And I agree with you, that’s why we, from the beginning, started Emerging Women. That was the yoga that I wanted to introduce, particularly because it’s juicy! There’s something so juicy about it!

I feel like, as a feminine being, I feel energetically more connected and more intimate when I do some of these practices. So I’m just wondering, why is it now, what’s lining up in the world that this practice is at the right point for really exploding? It’s already exploding, but what’s that about?

GJ: Well, the processing from Yogi Bhajan was that after this portal of 2012—which, in many lineages, had prophecy around this time stream shift that happened in 2012. When I talk about this, mine was right around November 2011. Something massively woke up in me. I think a lot of people can point to certain things that happened around that shifting time, where this idea of the second coming of Christ or the ascension of the planet or some of these more new age or religious things that we hear, or even the Mayan prophecies.

My interpretation of that, and definitely coming from Yogi Bhajan’s interpretation, is that there’s basically a major shift in the polarities in the planet. Meaning that there are more and more people choosing to live in a reality of abundance and a reality of compassion and a reality of some sort of consciousness practice, even if it’s just looking another person in the eye and making contact that way. It doesn’t have to be so formal. But that kind of time stream is one reality, and then the war, fear-mongering, control, scarcity, terror time stream is a whole other reality. And the split of those realities is a huge chasm.

Now, we live on a polarity planet, so in one way, it’s necessary on this particular planet to have that polarity. However there is—you see it, it’s the reason you’re doing your work; I see it and many, many, many people are moving in this direction—almost a pressure and a necessity. It’s no longer a luxury to do something that’s going to make yourself feel better. It’s a necessity. And that’s moving people towards a different way of living and a different way of creating politics and society and their family and their businesses and everything that comes from that. And that’s what Yogi Bhajan and some of the other seniors called the Aquarian age.

Yogi Bhajan said that those who start to participate in this way of being—we’re in these huge cycles of time, and those who do that are going to rule this planet for 5,000 years, post-2012. That’s the prophecy. I know I have my feet on the ground, I’m on the streets and working with people daily in all sorts of realms of existence, and I can attest that that is what I see from the ground. In every little nook and cranny, people are wising up to something that’s bigger than themselves, bigger than their petty concerns and worries and anxieties, and feeling like, “OK, I need to do something with this really precious life,” in whatever beautiful and unique way that is for that person.

CP: Yes. I mean, I think regardless of the frame—meaning some people are going to a Kundalini yoga class—I think this is happening all over the world. I just [wonder]: A) is it happening fast enough, and B) how are people living in the fear mongering—how can it only be 5,000 years that the happiness and the pleasure and the community and the love is what people want, and then, what, they don’t want that after 5,000 years? What have they wanted beforehand? It’s just so obvious to me that this is the way we should be living. It’s the basis of our humanities. So I’m just sort of confused why this isn’t just a snap and we’re all changing.

GJ: Yes, well, I mean, from where we’ve come in this past age, the level of confusion that you’re talking about and violence that has been enacted between the sexes and through the control frames of religion and all of that, that’s a big cycle of a hangover. That’s the word that I use because I feel that’s what people are waking up out of, a dream. It’s a big thing that’s circulating out of our consciousness, out of our cellular memory, out of bodies, out of our lineages that we all came from. Because a lot of times, we’re still operating on some subconscious levels from genocide or potato famine or horrible violence that is a part of the lineage that we were born into.

So in terms of what’s going to happen after 5,000 years, I think that remains to be seen. I do feel things are going to change, I do. My intuition is we’re going to be getting into a whole other realm of time and space, and how we live through that time and space, however in the density of the third dimension as this world stands now, the questions now is, yes, “Is this happening fast enough?” And I believe every person that turns toward some thought of greater humanity, greater compassion, in some part of each day, that is going to be pushing us toward the tipping point of its [acceleration].

And I am seeing it, and will it happen fast enough? I mean, the good news is, if it doesn’t happen fast enough, this was a great experiment and things will be refurbished and regenerated [laughs] and something will come anew out of the life on this planet and in the universe. I’m rooting for us. I’m really rooting for us, that it happens, you know?

CP: Oh, God, yes. Yes. Now, the other focus I was surprised about, just looking through your materials and a talk on RA MA TV, was your focus on business. That’s not something—you go to a yoga class and there’s a dharma talk on business. I’m curious to see what that intersection comes from within you, and how you came to focus on that.

GJ: Yogi Bhajan was really clear about this. We’re householders, which means that everything that is in an ordinary householder’s life is a yogic activity. And this is what Ra Ma is, this is what everything Ra Ma, my intention, is. This is a place where all integration of all part of our lives can become resonant and harmonized. Because I do feel, in the spiritual realm, we get a lot of people who are teaching or spiritual leaders of some sort, and there’s some sort of disharmony in their field around integration of the message and the way that they are living their lives and this, that, and the other thing.

So it has been a really important part of my teaching and my own personal practice that every single part of my householder’s life be held up into the light, be looked at and then worked into a way that is in harmony with my spiritual practice, like my more linear spiritual practice. Somebody asked me in an interview, “What do you do when you’re not teaching yoga?” I’m never not practicing yoga.

Yogi Bhajan taught [a lot] about, if our spiritual life is integrated, then our material life and what he called the “orbit,” our sphere of influence, is integrated. And those are biofeedback mechanisms. We’re not sadhus, we don’t meditate in a cave, we don’t give up all our material possessions, we’re not celibates. We’re householders, so everything apart of that is an important yogic activity.

So as an entrepreneur myself, and as a person who—I take it really seriously. Yogi Bhajan said, “You have become prosperous if you are employing 25 people, if you’re helping at least 25 other families.” I’m getting close, especially with the opening of the Boulder studio, I’m getting close to that. Consciousness business practices and conscious creation and conscious entrepreneurialism is putting my money where my mouth is, to me.

CP: Oh, this is so good! So, wait, just let me go back here. The biofeedback is that if there’s a section of your life, especially on the business side, where you are, at a bare minimum, prosperous—it sounds like, for him, [or] thriving—then there is somehow a breakdown in your whole field, your existence, like there’s something not optimal that’s working. Is that what you meant by the biofeedback, like that’s a sign?

GJ: Yes. That’s what I meant. I want to be clear about prosperity, though, because I do think it can be collapsed into our neurotic framework of success. When I say “prosperity,” I mean that there’s two streams of thought on the planet. There’s really no gray area here. You’re either in a poverty thought-form or you’re in a prosperity thought-form. And it doesn’t matter whether you have $2 million in the bank, $20 in the bank, $200,000—it’s all the same problem.

I love this as an equation, because it really tickles me. It’s so true as my businesses grow. It’s all the same—the problem I had when I was a teenager with $20 in New York City and I had to buy a MetroCard and I had $5 to buy my food for the week. That problem is the same problem I have when it’s $200,000 or $2 million. However I decide to relate with that challenge, that experience, is the same thing.

That’s what I mean by “prosperity,” because I know, you know, being an entrepreneur, especially in America, they make it really hard on you, being a small business owner. So I’m not saying that you have to have a certain amount of money in the bank to be prosperous, but your relationship with that whole mandala, that whole equation, is the prosperity.

CP: Yes! And I also love this idea of prosperity being how many families or how many other householders you [are] helping. I mean, that’s what I’m all about.

GJ: Me too. Yes. That’s why I think Amma is one of the most successful—well, I feel she is one of the most successful business people who ever lived. She uses all of her business for nonprofit, but that’s prosperity. That’s success.

CP: Yes. Well, I think women in general, and I know that a lot of men, [too], the whole impact space or impact businesses, men pioneered that, so I don’t want to exclude them. But I know that women, on a mass scale—it’s not like a separate type of business, to be impact-oriented. I think there was a Merrill Lynch study that was looking at women who made over $200,000, and they were trying to see where they would put their money, and 90 percent of them said that they wanted to have a positive impact in the world with their money. So I think that what you’re talking about, thinking of prosperity and success in terms of how many people we’re influencing to make the world a better place, is—I think women are going to lead that whole consciousness.

GJ: I feel that it’s a little bit more hardwired in us. And this is why I feel like it’s such a precious time, the way that—I mean, me and my partner talk about this all the time. Because part of what’s happening—and he loves this, he’s really enjoying it—is that he can hold, now, a little bit more of a meditative space. He doesn’t have to be the 1950s hustling breadwinner, the way that it has been, with this new shift in the way that women are going to be leading the free world, and also being mothers and also being hot lovers and all the things that we are, in teaching us to develop our relationship with the spectrum of femininity and what it means to be a woman.

I think that this is allowing men to actually be able to hold a more static and grounded space for us to do that. So in one way, there’s a little bit of tribal energy, where men held that space a little bit more in those times in civilization, and the women were the ones out doing the work to generate the culture and society that they wanted to live in. So I feel like there’s a bit of a shift in the roles, but the groundwork has been laid, and like you said, by men. And as women, we’re hardwired in the Ma, the mother, we want to take care of other beings, it’s just in our hormonal structures, the biochemistry. So of course we’re going to feel more connected to that, just even on a chemical level.

CP: It’s fascinating to see how this is all playing out.

GJ: It is!

CP: The cosmic feminine is rising!

GJ: [Laughs] I love it.

CP: This will be my final question for you. A lot of women that come into our network—and we have 50,000 right now, in our Emerging Women network, and it’s fabulous and we keep growing.

GJ: Wow. That’s so great!

CP: I know, I’m just like, “Oh my gosh!”

GJ: So amazing.

CP: Yes! I think that the common denominator for the people in our audience is that they’re feeling something opening up within them, and they’re emerging. And that has an energy of fire, it has an energy of new, it has an energy of fierceness, because we’ve committed to a life of alignment. To me, emerging happens after you go through a period of self-awareness, self-realization, and now you want to take that inner alignment and you want to bring it out into the world in some way, hence the emerging.

But that takes courage, there’s a lot of self-doubt. You’re going through it now with your business. I’m going through it. So many women in our network, they are emerging. And I would ask you, from your perspective, from your body of work, from your dharma, what kind of advice—and maybe it’s the one thing or it’s the two things that you have—for women at the beginning or at the middle of a big emergence?

GJ: I think, fundamentally, the most sound advice I can give is some sort of taking the day into your own mold, into your own hands, in terms of, this is why we do a sadhana practice, which basically translates from Gurmukhi into getting up way the fuck too early and [laughs] taking cold showers. But that’s not what it has to be.

What the essence of the practicality of it is that in the morning, when you wake up, you make a conscious decision about what kind of life you’re going to live that day. And then your time stream, the events, the occurrences, the ups, the downs that will surely come, that’s part of the experience that we came here for. That’s why we came. You will have the ups and the downs and the backs and the forths—all of it. We make a decision about the life that we want to live, what we want to give, and how we want to give it in this day, and then we fit the day into that momentum of a decision, of an intention.

And that can look a lot of different ways. Obviously, I take on a certain viewpoint, so there are certain practices in the Kundalini yoga technology that I could give you, but ultimately what it is is you take the day, in that first moment, you decide the kind of day you want to have, you create a real conscious breath in that decision, and then you put, with that victory—because that’s a victory. Every time you wake up in the morning and you take the day by its hand and you guide it, instead of you being drawn out of center—that term is used a lot, and I always tell women the era of moodiness is over. The whole propaganda of, “Oh, we’re hormonal, we’re moody, and we need this pill and that pill, and we’re cyclical and there’s something wrong with that so let’s get some feminine deodorant spray”—this is a part of the propaganda machine. So if we decide, as a woman, as a creator that creates life out of our own cellular structure, we’re going to have a certain type of day, and that day’s going to look this way, and we’re going to give these gifts, [and] we decide that first thing in the morning, you just took a bull by its horns. And now you are a commander of time and space. That’s what a yogi is. Everything else is just icing on the cake. A yogi is someone who commands the time and the space.

So that, I feel, just fundamentally, if you do that, try it for a week, and see what happens. Because there [are] massive shifts that come from that.

CP: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time, and I know you’re a busy lady moving mountains in the world, and this has just been a real gift to be able to spend this time with you. And we’re so looking forward to seeing you at Emerging Live in October! That’s fabulous.

GJ: I’m so, so excited, and thank you so much for everything you’re doing. Bless you for your hard work and your vision and your fortitude. I just really, really want to honor you.

CP: Thank you. OK, much love!

GJ: See you soon, OK, bye-bye.

[ew-audio-download headline=”Free Audio Download” subheadline=”Power Practices, Vol. 1 Women Who Are Changing the World”]

In today’s episode, Kelly and I spoke about:

• Her definition of stress and how it can actually be a benefit
• The research surrounding stress and the idea of transforming stress instead of reducing it
• Examples of how to transform the way we think about stress
• Embracing the ‘Flow State’
• How our culture of fear of discomfort holds us back.

Here is my conversation “The Upside of Stress” with the intelligent and revolutionary: Kelly McGonigal.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript

Well, hello and welcome, Kelly McGonigal! How are you?

Kelly McGonigal: I’m doing great! Thanks for having me back.

CP: Great. It’s always so fabulous to talk to you and to connect with you. I’m super excited to get into this new material. One of the things I thought we would just launch in with was, the last time we talked, you had launched the book The Willpower Instinct, and you were working on the psychology and the science behind internal change. And I’m curious to see, just in your own life, how this work on stress has evolved from your first book and what your journey has been.

KM: Yes. So when I think about how all of the work that I’ve been doing—the willpower work, the stress work, and my work at the Stanford Center for Compassion, trying to help people cultivate greater compassion—I realize that everything I’ve been doing for the last 15 years or so has been about trying to help people accept inner experiences or life circumstances that they can’t really control. Whether that’s dealing with cravings in terms of addiction, difficult emotions like anxiety and anger or grief, or even how I got started, which was working with people with chronic pain, and finding a way to accept pain that you can’t fix or change or control.

And the funny thing is that, because of my training in psychology and medicine, I’ve kept one thing outside of that circle of acceptance, and that was stress. Somehow stress remains that inner experience, that enemy, that really was toxic, that we really did need to reduce or avoid or manage. And it took me until, really, just a couple of years ago to realize that everything that I’ve been saying about the best way to deal with and transform other difficult inner experiences—like pain and anxiety and grief—the same applied to stress. It’s a big mistake to spend your energy trying to suppress or trying to avoid, just because you find that experience distressing.

The same principles that I recommend for these other difficult inner experiences, of accepting and then transforming them, of using them as a catalyst for meaning or for connection with others, that same principle [applies] to stress. And it really took some of the science that was coming out in the last five years or so about stress mindsets to really confront me and realize that I had somehow created this enemy out of stress that was not serving people. We’re all stressed, and I think the idea that we could ever avoid it is probably fundamentally flawed.

CP: What is stress? I mean, you reference difficult emotions, and then there’s the whole physiology behind it. I’m curious to see what you’re calling “stress.” Is it a physiology thing? Or is it—

KM: Yes, it’s a tough question, because we use the word “stress” to basically describe everything we don’t want to experience. We will use the word “stress” to describe a delay in traffic that irritates us. We’ll use the word “stress” to describe the pressures of parenting or work. We’ll use the word “stress” to describe our racing heart or our own anger and anxiety. And we even use the word “stress” as a synonym for “trauma.”

That makes stress very interesting, because fundamentally, it seems to describe the relationship that we have toward things that we’re experiencing, a relationship where we’re basically saying, “This is unwanted. I reject this.” And then we use the label “stress” to basically tag the things in our life that we don’t want. And I actually think that that’s what makes stress so rich for reinterpretation.

So the definition that I use for “stress” is much narrower, because I think that the way that we use the word actually isn’t helpful. We’re tagging basically everything in our lives as fundamentally toxic or unworkable. So instead, I like a much simpler definition of “stress” that puts the focus more on our reaction and our resources. And I talk about stress as being what arises when something we care about is at stake. It’s what arises in you. It includes your thoughts, it includes your emotions, it includes the body’s response to stress, the stress hormones it releases to try to help you do something about the fact that someone you care about is at stake. And it’s basically the way that we choose to respond to those challenges, which are those circumstances.

When we use that definition of stress, as what arises—our thoughts, our emotions, our desires, our motivation, and our body’s response to stress—it actually becomes much more clear that stress is quite helpful, that it really is a resource. And when we stop talking about stress as something that we’re being victimized by, and sort of reclaim stress as an instinct and a capacity for dealing with challenges in our lives—that’s what I’m encouraging people to embrace.

That’s the upside of stress: putting our attention on our own resources and the fact that human beings have a natural capacity to respond to challenges and to transform difficulties into growth, learning, meaning, and even connection with others.

CP: Tell us about the research around this. I’m curious to see if that awareness, or what you call embracing the stress and really facing it head-on, not ignoring it, not pushing it away. So if I open my arms to stress, is there research that shows me that I actually am reducing my stress? What are the results?

KM: So language is key. Not “reducing” stress, but “transforming” stress. And there actually is a growing body of research—actually, I think that language really matters. It’s one of the reasons that I wrote this book. Because if we talk about reducing stress rather than embracing it and transforming it, we end up doing things that are actually quite destructive, like deciding we need to get drink because we can’t deal with our feelings. Or deciding that we need to take a less stressful job because we can’t cope with the pressures that we face.

So rather than talking about “reducing,” I really like to talk about “transforming.” And the research is growing that how you think about stress and your relationship to stress can really determine the effects that stress has on your health and your well-being. Some of the core, foundational research came out of Yale, where researchers asked people how they thought about stress: “Do you view it as fundamentally negative and something to be avoided? Or do you view it as something that is fundamentally positive and should be utilized and embraced?”

And those researchers found that you can predict the effect of stress on people’s lives by the attitude they hold, that people who view stress as positive are less likely to become depressed during periods of high stress, they’re in better physical health, they’re more productive at work. And research beyond that laboratory shows that they’re better able to find meaning in their stress, they have better relationships with others.

And what really caught my eye was the research showing that how you think about stress [can] even impact something like cardiovascular disease and how long you live. People who really hold that negative view of stress are more like to experience the toxic effects of stress we expect, whereas people who do not hold that harmful view of stress [almost] seem to be protected by the presence of stress in their lives.

The one site I mentioned in my TED talk, [which] sort of kick-started this book, found that people who have very stressful lives but don’t view stress as harmful are the most likely to be alive at the end of this eight-year study that they looked at. Whereas people who have very stressful lives and viewed it as very harmful to their health were the most likely to die. And the presence of stress was not the determinate in that. It was really the mindset.

So there’s all this research that’s suggesting how you think about stress matters. And what’s most exciting to me is a lot of studies coming out showing, “OK, how the heck do you change your mind about stress? Because we’ve all been told that stress is toxic and we should be reducing it.” And there are a lot of really small mindset shifts we can make in our daily lives that actually transform how we experience stress.

CP: Can you give us some examples of those? God, I’m taking notes here, this is handy.

KM: Sure. Well, one of my favorites, as somebody who experiences anxiety—we all have different flavors of stress that are most familiar. Some people tend to get angry when they’re under stress. Some people get paralyzed. Some people get anxious. I get anxious. And research coming originally out of Harvard—the lead researcher is Jeremy Jamieson, he’s now at the University of Rochester. He came up with this mindset intervention of taking people who deal with anxiety—whether it’s just students who are facing a difficult exam all the way to people with diagnosed anxiety disorders—and he told them that anxiety is basically energy.

When your heart is pounding, when you’re breathing faster, when you’re sweating, they’re all signs that your body is trying to give you energy. And research shows that energy, that arousal that you’re feeling of anxiety, can actually help you. It can help you do better. It can help you rise to the challenge. Which is, by the way, completely true, despite the fact that most people think you need to be calm in order to do your best. The biological research suggests that that’s not true, that adrenaline pretty much always enhances performance, even if you feel it as anxiety.

So he told people that, and said, “So, when you feel anxious, try to remember that. Try to remember it’s energy. It can actually help you.” And he’s shown that that helps people perform better under pressure, whether it’s students who are taking a difficult exam, whether it’s women who are facing stereotype threats and violence, whether it’s people with social anxiety disorder having to give a public speech and receive critical feedback about how they present themselves—which, of course, is their worst nightmare.

In all of these different scenarios, people who embrace their anxiety and view it as energy, in the moment that they are feeling the anxiety, they do better and their physical stress response changes. They don’t become less stressed—they actually all have higher levels of adrenaline than people who are trying to suppress their anxiety.

CP: Oh, interesting.

KM: But they also have lower levels of inflammation, which is one type of stress response, usually the more harmful or toxic side of the stress response. So even as their being fully energized by stress, they’re not experiencing the inflammation, they’re not experiencing the blood vessel constriction that often goes along with an unhealthy stress response.

And that’s what I mean by transforming stress. If you focus all your energy trying to calm down, you actually lose the benefits of stress. And that’s just one example, one flavor of stress. In the book, I talk about looking at all the ways that we experience stress. Sometimes it’s anger, sometimes it’s despair, sometimes it’s wanting to give up. And each one of those responses to stress can be transformed by changing the way that you think about stress in that moment.

CP: When I hear you say “thinking about stress”—first of all, I think this is fabulous. Such a turnaround from pushing stress away, and I want to get into that a little bit more. But there’s something that, in me, when I think, just thinking, because I’m so future-oriented, and I, like you, have more [of] the anxiety side of the stress, that I find the thinking—God, if I think too much, it just keeps going, it’s a spiral. So are there any tips on that? Or perhaps maybe a more bodily approach as an alternative to us overthinkers? Is it really just staying in that thinking zone and re-creating imagery?

KM: Well, it’s both. As you know, I’m a mindfulness researcher and mindfulness teacher, which is not inconsistent with the idea of embracing stress. We all know that “mindfulness” is not a synonym for “calming down,” despite the way the media talks about it. But I think one of the core lessons of mindfulness is, we’re always trying to cultivate the ability to choose the focus of our attention. And when something is really capturing your attention, it’s often because it matters. So if you’re worrying about the future, it’s because something you care about matters. And I think it’s a mistake to try to push it out of your mind through distractions that have nothing to do with what you care about and have nothing to do with meaning.

And one of the mindset interventions that I really like is, in those moments when you’re worrying about something, to recognized, “OK, worrying is a sign that I care about something. It’s a sign of meaning.” And by the way, research shows that people who worry more also have more meaning in their lives, that they tend to go together. People with less meaningful lives worry less. So it can be helpful to remember that, that there’s a strong relationship between meaning and worrying. People who have more in their lives that they care about are going to inevitably worry more. That seems to be true.

So in that moment when the worrying is happening, rather than letting your attention go to worst case scenarios, or the things that you can’t control, some researchers have asked people to think about why they care in that moment. What is meaningful to you about this? What value is connected to this? Family, wanting to make a difference, wanting to grow, wanting to do well—whatever the core value is, put your attention on that, why it’s meaningful and why it matters, even for a brief moment. And that’s been shown to make it more likely that your worrying will be transformed into something productive rather than something that makes you feel stuck or that is a drain on your energy.

So you’re worrying, and you think, “Well, the reason I care about this is because this role is really meaningful to me. Or this relationship is really meaningful to me.” People are then more likely to be able to see what the choice is in that moment, that it’s consistent with the meaning or with the value. “Because this relationship matters to me, I’m going to make the phone call now instead of just ruminating over it and worrying about it and thinking about what I said yesterday or thinking about how they’re going to respond.” Or I’ll take an action to get started on a project rather than just worry about whether or not I’ll be able to do it or do it well. That’s, again, a mindset shift that basically transforms the function of worrying without having to suppress it or get rid of it.

CP: You know what I love about that? You do have a chapter in the book where you say, “Connect: How Caring Creates Resilience.” And that just—what you said about values, in the moment when you return to your values, you feel more love and compassion. It’s sort of tying into you former work—or, whatever, it’s not your former work.

KM: My current work is compassion, yes.

CP: Yes, that’s your lifelong work! But it’s just so interesting. When you bring back values, it brings up compassion, and we just go big picture and it feels like we do become more resilient.

KM: Yes. I call that “finding you’re bigger than self” mindset. One of the things that can make stress less helpful and more distressing is sometimes it makes our focus very, very narrow on ourselves. And that whole chapter on how caring creates resilience is actually about how, when we shift our focus to something bigger than ourselves—whether it’s taking care of a human being or a pet or a plant that we love, or whether it’s thinking about our biggest values, our priorities in life, whether it’s thinking about helping out a stranger—those moments of shifting to something bigger than ourselves actually changes the chemistry of our stress response in a way that increases [what] I call the “biology of hope and courage.”

It’s literally inhibiting the fear system of the brain while increasing the systems of the brain that experience positive motivation, that make you want to take positive risks, that give you energy, that give you what I call in The Willpower [Instinct] “I want” power and “I will” power, that combination of caring and the willingness to do something even if it’s difficult. So the research shows that when we are connected to something bigger than ourselves, we have more of that “will” power and that “want” power.

And what’s really fascinating is that often stress can point us in that direction, particularly for women. Often our own experience of stress makes us want to care or to connect. And part of my message in the book is that we should really trust that instinct, that the best thing to do under stress isn’t always to tighten your focus and try to protect yourself or defend yourself or think about how you can control the way that you come across to others, that opening up to some broader, bigger-than-self mindset will actually paradoxically help you deal with your own struggles. And I think a lot of women have that direct experience.

CP: Oh my God, it’s such a paradox. Because on one hand, a lot of the stress is self-induced, because we’re such perfectionists and we care so much, so if we care so much then it sounds like, based on our desire for a meaningful life, there’s going to be some stress. And then we beat ourselves up for having the stress and not being able to handle it. It just keeps going in a cycle. But really, if we come back to the values, there’s more of a tender heart there, and that big picture just feels like it breaks the hamster wheel, in a way.

KM: Yes. And, you know, one of the things that I think my big purpose for this particular book—with The Willpower [Instinct], I wanted to help people make changes in their lives, but I also really, really wanted people to know that they weren’t alone in struggling to make those changes. That was my deal breaker. That’s what I really wanted people to understand, that if you’re human, you’re going to experience challenges related to willpower.

And with this book, the same sort of basic truth that I hope people can feel at that level, at that heart level, is that there is no version of your life that is both meaningful and full of growth and full of love that also happens to be stress-free. And women so often think that the stress in their lives means that they are failing at life in some way, and the message that stress is always harmful, and that we should always be avoiding or reducing stress, really amplifies that feeling. Like, “I must be inadequate. If I experience parenting as stressful, there must be something wrong with me as a parent. If I feel overwhelmed or pressured at work, I must not be cut out for this job. It’s too much for me,” and on and on. We use stress as a signal that there’s something wrong with us or with our lives. And I think that’s a direct consequence of this overwhelming messaging that we get, that stress is a signal that we’re doing something wrong.

CP: Well, you know, the other thing is, especially in the New Age thinking, this term “being in the flow, when you’re in the flow nothing’s difficult and it all just kind of works”—

KM: Did you know that the flow response is a stress response? I apologize for interrupting.

CP: No! Do it!

KM: It’s so funny that, if you look at people who are in a flow state, they experience an increase of lots of stress hormones. That is a version of the stress response, even though people don’t experience it as distressing. It’s basically the definition of ideal stress, and your body [sent out] a stress response to help you be in the flow.

CP: OK, so let’s break this down, because I’ve always tried to get in the flow, but I’m [always] segregating: “The stress needs to leave for me to get into the flow.” I always battle that kind of thinking. So say that again, slowly. [Laughs]

KM: Another word for it, actually, is “challenge response.” So the definition of a flow state is when you are confronted with a challenge that you feel like you have the resources to meet, and you take some kind of pleasure or meaning out of meeting that challenge. That’s basically the definition of flow. And when you look at what’s going on in people’s brains and bodies when they report having that experience, you see an increase in certain stress hormones, like adrenaline and cortisol—the same ones that we tend to fear are actually helping people experience that positive flow state and meet the challenge. You see increased activity in areas of the brain that are associated with the kind of focused attention that one experiences when you have a stress response and are trying to rise to the challenge.

What you tend not to see are certain aspects of a stress response when we feel we are completely threatened, paralyzed, or overwhelmed. The reason people like a flow state is because you sense the meaning and you also sense your own adequacy to the task. And as soon as you introduce the sense that you are inadequate to the challenge, then you start seeing a threat response, you start seeing things like heightened inflammation, and other physical changes that aren’t really healthy in the long term.

But they’re both stress responses, and one of the reasons I’m so passionate now about how helping people embrace stress is it seems like when you embrace stress, you actually are creating that sense of adequacy that makes it more likely that you’re going to experience something like a flow state or challenge state, or that you’ll be able to tend and befriend under stress, rather than retreat or become isolated.

CP: I love that you used the word “challenge.” Just the word “stress,” it’s just been so negative, and I love that you’re sort of re-creating that. But just to get at that a little bit more, you have a couple sections in the book where you’re talking about turning threats into challenges. How does one do that when they’re in the grips of—

KM: Yes, you can tell I’m kind of jumping the gun because I’m so excited about this.

CP: No, do it, yes!

KM: There are a lot of really simple mindset resets that scientists have looked at and psychologists have looked at that help you do this. I’m just going to rattle off a few. I think you can get a sense of what they have in common. They basically are all about trying to reflect on the resources that you have available to you.

So one is, as I mentioned earlier, to view your own stress response as energy and as a resource, and that seems to turn threat responses into challenge responses. Another is to think about your own values as a strength—whether that’s a spiritual faith, whether it’s a quality like compassion or courage, something that you value in yourself—and bring that to mind, and then that becomes a felt sense of resource that can change a threat response into a challenge response. Prayer and meditation have both been shown to do the same thing. I think that one of the things that is so wonderful about mindfulness meditation is it basically creates a sense of fundamental OK-ness in any moment that actually makes it more likely that you will experience a challenge response, even in situations that you would never choose for yourself.

Other examples, some really fun ones, are listening to a song that is uplifting has been shown to be helpful to do this, whether [it’s] gospel or hip hop or a Broadway show tune—anything that makes you feel empowered and inspired can actually shift a threat into a challenge response. Thinking about people in your life who support you [has] been shown to do this as well.

Basically, it’s all about taking a moment to connect to the resources that are present. And in different situations, different resources will feel relevant. But in that very quick mindset moment, where you’re able to think about the resources you bring, it can have a really profound effect on what’s happening in your brain and body in a way that completely changes the way that you’re able to cope with the situation.

CP: Those are so great. And you’ve also talked about thinking about the values and also the power of connecting. So there are lots of tools here in the moment, or over time, where I can change my viewpoint. And then what? How can we light the creative fire under this so that we’re making the most out of it?

KM: So one of the things we know about mindset and interventions is that they have a naturally upward spiraling effect on people’s lives. A lot of these studies have done very short mindset interventions that would be basically less than the equivalent of somebody listening to this conversation that we’re having now. This is already a mindset intervention for people who are listening. Something as simple as being told to think differently about stress in one stressful moment has this amazing catalyst effect where it automatically changes the way that you think about yourself and the way that you think about adversity that you face in the future. And that’s one of the most amazing things about this research.

So even as we are thinking, “Well, there’s got to be something else that I can do. There should be something more. I can dig deeper into this.” The actual science suggests that it’s a lot simpler than that, that one or two experiences of connecting to these mindset shifts has such a powerful effect that they snowball on their own. And trusting that process is sort of a leap of faith. But I really want to encourage people that that’s really what it’s about: one or two times, in moments of stress, try on a different point of view, and some studies show that years later, it is continuing to have a profound effect on people’s personal success [and] physical health and happiness.

The other thing that I think, for people who are really interested in mindset shift, is to start practicing mindset mindfulness. We get a lot of messages about stress and what it means. In any given day, I might run across 10 articles online that are telling me that my stress means that my life is toxic and my life is killing me and I should stop everything and try to deal with that stress. Really start paying attention to how those messages affect us, and the messages that we’re sending to other people in the way that we talk about stress or the way that we try to avoid other people who are stressed out. We tell other people that they need to calm down.

You can apply that basic quality of mindfulness—you’re starting to pay attention to the presense of mindset in your life in the same way that you would for any other kind of belief or attitude that you are interested in changing, and simply bringing awareness to that. Like with so many different processes of change, just bringing awareness to it in itself can be transformative.

CP: You know, what I like about this is—there’s a Buddhist teacher, of course you know him, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche, used to always say, “Lean into the sharp points,” that there’s so much value in that, when you actually have something that’s sharp and pointy and it’s needling you to actually lean in, and there’s wisdom there. But also, I just think, as a culture, we don’t do that because we fear discomfort. We just avoid it. Any kind of discomfort. So what you’re asking to be done here is going to take a little effort. [Laughs]

KM: Yes. It definitely does. And speaking of Buddhist practices, one of my favorite practices for years has been tonglen, which is a meditation practice of breathing in discomfort and pain and suffering, trusting that you can transform it, and choosing to breathe out whatever the healing opposite would be, whether it’s freedom from suffering, compassion, courage, strength, faith. You breathe in the bad stuff and you breathe out the healing opposite.

It wasn’t until about a year ago, leading a retreat on these practices, that it finally hit me that all of this stress mindset research is basically one bit tonglen practice. And that everything that makes people resist tonglen as a practice—that they don’t trust that they can transform suffering into something good, they want to avoid discomfort, avoid pain, they want to defend against it, all those things that make tonglen initially so hard and eventually so transformative—is the same thing as the stress mindset research. It requires trusting your own capacity to be with discomfort and transform it into something better.

And the science says that, actually, humans have that natural capacity, that our own suffering is often a catalyst for growth and meaning and compassion. And I think the thing that the latest science is really adding is that it’s especially true if we choose to view it that way.

CP: That’s the key to all of this. It’s really the viewpoint. I love the mindset intervention. That has to be a coined phrase at this point. It’s so good. But that’s what required. The vigilance to the tapes that we keep playing in our heads, the negative stories that keep running through the mindsets. We need to interrupt them and disrupt them.

KM: And transform them.

CP: Yes! That’s why this is so powerful. In so many ways, it’s so much more simpler than cutting out something [from] our lives or avoiding or changing jobs or making big changes.

KM: It’s a lot simpler than having to get rid of stress.

CP: Right!

KM: And even one mindset exercise I sometimes have people contemplate is to list everything in your life that’s stressful, and then imagine a life without any of the roles and relationships that give rise to those stressful experiences. Because people often have this other point of view, like it’s possible to have those roles, those goals, and those relationships, and just not have stress, when the reality is, if you want to get rid of the stress of parenting, you need to get rid of your kid. That sounds awful, but it’s not like there’s the stress-free version of it that’s available.

And, of course, there are things you can do to get rid of unnecessary stress that is completely divorced from meaning. That is possible, sometimes. If you do that mindset exercise of thinking about getting rid of everything in your life that gives rise to stress, I think most people realize it actually is quite ridiculous to talk about reducing stress.

CP: Well, I mean, I for one, as we’re wrapping up here, I’m excited to put a lot of this into practice, and I actually feel so much better about my life!

KM: Great! Good! Well then, I guess my foundational goal is a bit of a success. Because I really hope that that’s part of what this mindset shift can do for people: to feel more empowered and more inspired by their own lives, even when the lives include uncertainty and difficulty and circumstances that we might not choose.

CP: So great. So great to have you again, and this is going to be a real gift to our audience, so thank you so much, Kelly.

KM: Thank you!

Dr. Neha Sangwan, CEO and founder of Intuitive Intelligence, is an internal medicine physician, international speaker and corporate communication expert. In her new book, TalkRx, Dr. Neha Sangwan reveals practical yet profound communication tools that will strengthen your relationships, reduce your stress, improve your health, and save you time! Dr. Neha Sangwan was a featured presenter at the 2015 Emerging Women Live Conference.

In today’s episode, Neha and I speak about:

• Desire: being able to articulate and get to the core of what we desire
• The importance of clarity and the positive expression of what we want
• How to change conversations with people who are not clear with their desires and the skills to do it
• Vocalizing what we value and acting in alignment with these values
• Neha’s 2-Step Decision Making Tool
• Rewriting History, the importance of being vulnerable and how “Truth is Always the Answer”

Here is Part 2 of my conversation “Talk Rx: A Prescription for Connection, Health and Happiness” with the honest and wonderful: Dr. Neha Sangwan.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript:

Chantal Pierrat: OK, welcome back, Neha!

Neha Sangwan: Oh, it’s so good to be here again.

CP: Now, you are visiting your parents right now. What state are you in?

NS: New York.

CP: You’re in New York, OK. Are you on Long Island?

NS: Oh no, I’m in Buffalo. I live right outside New York in Williamsburg, but my parents live in Buffalo. So the whole family’s out.

CP: So this is a perfect opportunity to practice a little TalkRx.

NS: [Laughs] Family is always the perfect opportunity to practice communication skills.

CP: And you have—you said it’s your parents’ wedding anniversary?

NS: Yes, their 50th.

CP: OK, all right. Now’s the time. [Laughs]

NS: That is so true.

CP: Well, in our first part 1, we talked about your five-step process, which I think you call the i-Five?

NS: Yes, the i-Five conversation.

CP: The i-Five conversation. Maybe we should just quickly summarize the five parts, just for the listeners that might be coming in for the first time, even on part 2. And then we can dig into the part 2 of our podcast.

NS: Sure. The whole premise of the i-Five is that it’s five steps to having not just conversations, but honest conversations. And I think that’s where people get a little stuck. So I’ve broken it down into five parts, and the first part is your body. Basically, how our senses help us pick up information from the external world while we are simultaneously getting information from our internal world, like our heart racing, [our] stomach turning, all of that stuff that also is giving us information. And sometimes those two things are not in sync, right? So I’m saying “yes” but my stomach’s dropping. So that’s the body section, which is, how do you take in data from the outside world and inside world and have it sync up, and when it doesn’t, what do you do?

That data takes us to the second part of the i-Five conversation, which is your thoughts. So if I am in room and I’m talking to you, and my eyes tell me that you just get up and leave in the middle of a conversation, that’s data that I would pick up. I’ll make up a thought about it. I’ll decide that it means you’re not feeling well. I’ll decide that it means you don’t like me. I’ll decide all sorts of things. So the second step is around the thoughts we make up once we’ve observed the data from our body.

And then, depending on which thought I believe—if I think that you’re not feeling well, it leads me to step three, which is an emotion. So if I think you’re not feeling well, I might feel an emotion of concern or worry for you, for your health, how you’re feeling. Now, if the thought I made up was that I don’t think you like me or thought that our conversation was very interesting, then the emotion that might come next is disappointment, sadness, feeling upset.

So you start by picking up data in your body, second is you create thoughts around what it means. The third step is, depending on which thought you commit to or believe, you have an emotion. And the fourth step then leads you to have a desire, a want. I might want to get up and leave the room and see how you’re doing. I might want to run out of the house and say, “Oh, I don’t want to have this conversation anymore.” I might get curious, I might want to get curious, like, “Hey, what happened?” So it leads to step four, which is desires.

And then step five is, when you’ve integrated body, thoughts, emotions, and desires, you take some sort of action. And so that’s the fifth step. So is that clear?

CP: Yes. I think it’s great to just summarize that. What we want to talk about is the last two of those, because I think especially with women, it’s so hard, when we get to that desire. What do we actually want? We can spend a lot of time in the awareness zone about our bodies and our thoughts and our feelings, and then when we get to what we want—and I don’t know if this is just millenniums of not being able to articulate what we want or not having the freedom to do so, or that we’re just naturally just so geared and wired toward the other that that is just a hard thing for us to nail down.

So I would love to start there, and hear what you think and what kind of actions we can take in practices to get to the root of that desire, and really, fully articulate what it is that we want. What are the outcomes?

NS: Yes, I mean, I think it’s really, really important, because if people don’t know what they want—I mean, there are a lot of people who spend time really upset that someone else hasn’t given them what they wanted, even though they never told them what that was. I’ve definitely been guilty of dating someone and wishing that they would do something or show up in a certain way on Valentine’s Day, or whatever it is, but, by the way, I never articulated that that was something that was important to me. So I think it’s not only knowing what you want, but it’s also having the confidence to say it out loud and really be willing to express it and get clear within ourselves as well as with each other.

So, yes, let’s definitely start there. The premise around desire is really—they’re based on what we value. That’s a great place to start. A really simple way that I do this is have you bring to mind somebody that you really admire. Because people will say, “I don’t know, ‘value’ is such a big thing. I don’t know what I value, I value a lot of things.” Well, you may value lots and lots of things, but it’s important to come up with your top five, your top 10, so that there’s a way you can at least guide your decisions, whether you know it or not.

So I would have you just bring to mind someone you really, really admire. And you don’t have to tell me who it is. Can you bring someone to mind?

CP: Yes.

NS: OK, great. So just tell me three qualities about that person that you really admire.

CP: They’re super creative. They’re modern, at the cutting edge. My person is Martha Graham, [she] is one of my idols. And she’s uncompromising but graceful at the same time.

NS: Wow. So what’s incredible about that is she’s this vision in the world, for you, of someone you admire and value. But what you’ve just done as well is, really quickly and easily, pinpointed some of your highest values. So these are probably principles that you are the most proud of yourself when you show up as super creative, as uncompromising but graceful. The words that you use to describe someone else—you might as well use that for women, right? We’re so other-focused, let’s use that and help us get clear about what we value most.

CP: Yes. Love it.

NS: So I just think of that as a really simple exercise that people can begin getting clear about what they want. Another one is: women, I think, are very clear about what they don’t want. The brain is hardwired to avoid pain and seek pleasure, so we’re really clear about the times when we felt burned or we felt rejected or we felt like we didn’t get what we wanted. Those are blazed in our memory. Or we got feedback that didn’t resonant—not that it didn’t resonate, but it felt like it was more critical.

So people will say things like, “I don’t want to lose my cool.” Well, when I ask them what they want, they say, “Oh, I don’t want to get sick.” “I don’t want to go to another wedding alone.” “I don’t want to end up in my career and not have made a difference.” Do you see what I mean? I’ll ask them what they want, and they will list all the things that they desperately do not want.

CP: OK, yes. Guilty of that myself.

NS: [Laughs] So I think the next step would be, once people getting really clear about what they value, then it will help lead them to what they want, and as they begin to craft what they want, start thinking through: are you clear about what you don’t want or what you do want?

So let’s take a couple of those examples, and let’s just turn them around. So if I say, “I don’t want to lose my cool,” well, what I might really be saying is, “When I’m disappointed, I’d like to be able to express myself clearly.” Because you can’t really stop yourself from getting upset, but you certainly would hope that if you are disappointed, you could articulate that clearly. Or, “I don’t want to get sick.” So if we flip that around, it would be, “I want to be healthy.”

CP: Now, tell me, what is your view on switching that around? Is the value in the absolute clarity, or is the value in leaning more towards a positive articulation of the value? Do you know what I’m saying? Or is it both?

NS: It’s really both. It’s both, because when you can envision something, and you can envision it clearly, you will move in that direction. And in the craziest way—I find, and this is my own belief system—I just find that the universe comes together to support me in that. So the clearer I get, the more miraculous my world becomes, as soon as I set my intention on something.

So yes, I think it’s a little bit of both. I think it’s important to—when I say, “I don’t want to get sick,” all I’m really focused on is “sick.” “I don’t want to get sick, I don’t want to get sick.” When I say, “I would like to feel strong in my body, I would love to be able to run five miles three times a week, I would like to win a race,” whatever it is, there’s a bit of guided imagery, imagery that really helps align your entire physiology and your beliefs in that direction.

It’s used in the Olympics a lot, with how divers basically have a perfect 10 dive. Well, they don’t do it by hoping everybody else is messing up or worried that they themselves are going to mess up. What they do is they keep envisioning, over and over again, what a perfect dive, what little splash in the water, feels like, looks like, would be like, until their body creates it.

So I think it’s a bit of imagery. I think it’s a bit of getting really clear on the vision. Because I can say, “I don’t want to get sick,” and even if I have low energy and I’m kind of functioning, I’m not really sick, but I’m not this picture of health either. So the better I can articulate and describe it specifically, the clearer it will take me to my goal.

CP: Right. Now, in terms of creating with another in a courageous conversation, how would having more of the positive articulation of your desire be more effective in making things smoother and more harmonious?

NS: Yes, so this is really important. So getting clear about what you want is in a few different categories. The first is, if you and I are having a conversation—and let’s say you’re my sister, and when you and I come together, I tend to get defensive, because at the beginning of the show we were talking about family. So the first level of want is how I would like to show up in this conversation. Let’s say every time we talk about where the family is going to vacation or whatever it is, you and I tend to disagree.

So I come in, I’m closed, I’m defensive, and I’m guarded. My first level of want in a conversation with somebody else is, how do I want to show up in this conversation myself? So this time, I’m hoping for a new outcome, so I will show up as open, curious, and honest. So I want to be honest, compassionate, open, and curious. So that’s the beginning of how you set the stage, which is taking accountability for yourself.

Now, the second piece is, when I know what I want—let’s say that I highly value warm-weather vacations, because one of my highest values is play, competition, and athletics. And so when the family is together, I feel really connected to everybody when we get to golf, when we get to walk on the beach, and we get to play tennis.

Now, if I understand what I value, and what I want, which is a warm-weather vacation because it allows me to feel really connected to the family and stay engaged rather than go in my hotel room and work—which is my default that happens when I don’t feel as connected and engaged—then when I’m negotiating with you, or having a conversation with you, it’s really important that when I say, “Hey, can we go south for our vacation rather than going skiing or something else?” If I’m asking for whatever it is, I have the room to negotiate, because I’m very clear about what is underlying it that’s important to me.

So if you suggest something else, I can find a middle bridge of creativity and expansiveness where you and I can meet if I know that what I really want is connectedness on this trip, when I know I want some way that we can play together. I may have ideas of it being on a sports field, some sort of sporting event. I would say, “The most important thing to me is we get to play, that it’s like a game, that we all feel connected. Can you help me think of others ways that that could be possible in the scenario that you’re suggesting?”

CP: Exactly. Now, here’s my question: so here we are, doing our work, and we’re getting clear on our desires and we’re getting super specific and positive and we’re articulating. But we may not be speaking with somebody who’s going through the same program. How do we find out what they’re desire [is] and if they’re not clear. Because I find myself often in that situation, where we’re talking with somebody who doesn’t have the communication background—or who hasn’t read your book cover to cover—and is not putting these practices in place, and their desires are murky as well. Is there a way to bring that out, or are there clues and signs to get to a knowing at that level?

NS: Yes. So I say several times in the book that it only takes one person to change the outcome of a conversation, and that person is you. And the reason is, curiosity is going to help the other person get clear, like me saying, “I’d love to have a beach vacation or do something here with the family,” and somebody else is really, really committed to doing something else, if I can notice that I’m reacting in my body, that I have these thoughts that, “She’s just doing this to make me mad,” whatever it is, but if I’m really aware of what’s happening for me, what I do is, I shift into curiosity, and I say something to you like, “What’s important?”

Instead of me saying, “No way, this is what I want to do,” and digging in, what I do is I get really aware of myself and then I say, “Wow, it sounds like you’d like to do this,” whatever it is that they just said, “help me understand what’s important about that to you? What is it that would make this a really meaningful experience for you?” And as soon as I’m aware of myself and I shift into curiosity, I can actually ask the questions like, “What do you value about that? What did you really enjoy about the last time we did X, Y, and Z?”

So there’s a way that I can show up [with] curiosity in order to help this other person figure out what’s happening, or in a conversation with somebody else if I realize that I heard what they observed and what they thought and how they’re feeling, but they haven’t told me what they desire or what action they’d like to take. Me, as the person understanding these five steps, it’s to say, “So tell me what you want and what would you like to do next?”

So you even knowing the framework allows you to know. I mean, if somebody knows underneath wants is what someone values, then when you’re listening to the other person, listen for what they value. “Oh, it sounds like it’s really important that we’re around your high school friends. It sounds like it’s really important that we’re at a ski lodge. What it is about a ski lodge that is really important to you?” Whatever that is, you want to just get curious and be able to listen deeper for values. And then even if the other person doesn’t know how to use this framework, it is incredibly powerful because you, as the person who does understand communication on a different level, you can ask the right questions to bridge you.

CP: Right. Beautiful!

NS: One more thing I was thinking about: you were asking, how does knowing what you want help you in conversation? So let’s just say that the whole idea of you and I going on a hike together came up. “Hey, would you like to go on a hike?” And let’s say you say, “No, Neha, I’m not really sure if I can go on a hike this weekend because I have company coming over and something else is going on. I can get back to you later.” Well, if there’s something in me, in the clarity of knowing what I want, I have to get really clear in that moment. I can either feel rejected and say, “Oh, Chantal doesn’t want to do this with me, I knew it,” and come up with a whole bunch of stories, or I can get really clear about what I value and what I want.
Do I want, a) to go on a hike really badly and see some beautiful new hike that I haven’t been on, is that what I value the most? Or, b) do I value spending time with you? And if I my greater intention is to spend time with you, because I haven’t seen you in a long time, and my deepest desire is not about the actual hike, it’s about spending time with you, then my next question in our conversation can be, “You know what, Chantal, it sounds like that’s going to take quite a while. I really miss your friendship and spending time with you. What if I came over and helped you get ready for whatever you were doing? I would be really willing to help you go grocery shopping, come over and [help you] get the whole place ready. I love that stuff.” So I can change the conversation if I’m really clear about what it is underneath it that I value the most.
CP: Right. That’s super powerful, and especially, I think, again for women, really getting clear about desires, and like you say, values. Because the values are in the moment and they’re specific, but they’re actually—aren’t they tied to a larger set of values? I remember just going through this with the Steve Covey Habits program, and just really taking time to identify the metavalues. Is that what you’re talking about? Or are you talking about in every moment, figuring out—

NS: So, it’s both, right? My highest values, my highest five values, are love, integrity, service, beauty, and play. Those are my overarching values. But how I define each one of those, there’s a whole cascade of values that go under each one of them that makes it unique to me and that I use on a day-to-day basis.

So I had a lot of resistance around valuing beauty at the beginning. I was like, “Oh, that is so superficial! That’s not something that would be one of my highest values.” Except I spent one week and just defined everything in the world I thought was beautiful, from nature, to my hair being well done, to a child being honest at dinner—all the things I thought were beautiful. By the end of the week, it was so clear to me that beauty was one of my highest values, but it was how I defined it.

So there’s a day-to-day component, and then there’s the overall component of it. And it’s a deeper discussion, for sure. In the beginning, the way you figure out what you value is [like] how we did that exercise on who you admire and why. That’s an easy, quick way. Another way to do it is, think back on some of the most meaningful experienced in your life, when you were the most touched. And as you tell those stories to somebody, or as you journal about them, pay attention to what made them so important. That’s a quick way to do it.

I do think we change. I joke and say I change every decade. It seems like I fine-tune it every decade, five to 10 years. And I think as I’ve gotten older, it’s changing less and less. Just a personal—but I think if people aren’t clear, it won’t take them long, because you’ve just got to think about some of the most meaningful people and experiences in your life. I actually wrote a whole list of my values. It’s by no means comprehensive, but it’s a good start. But in the whole section on desires, I call it the Values Vocabulary List to get people started.

CP: Right. So now we have desire, we have our values, and another thing I think women struggle with is actually putting that into action and asking for what they want, and you spent a lot of time on this in the book. Both men and women may have this, but I know that women struggle with actually vocalizing and [worrying], “Are we being too demanding? Hey, I don’t want to impose on somebody. I have this internal desire that I’ve recognized, now how do I actually develop the courage to ask for it?” And I’m curious to see if you can talk a little bit on that.

NS: Yes, I think once you get clear about what you value—there’s something I call the Two-Step Decision Making Tool, which is essentially that, when an idea comes from within you, or from outside of you, someone presents an opportunity to you or asks you to do something, or you come up with your own idea, either way, if you know what you value, your top values, take your hand and spread apart your fingers, do it horizontally, and then put another hand and then put it vertically right on top of that, so it looks like a little filter, I call that your Values Filter Test.

So the first question you ask yourself when someone asks you to do something, or you want to ask someone to do something, is, “Does this pass my Values Filter Test? Is this opportunity or desire? Is it something that I would align with?” And I think sometimes we actually miss that when we get caught up in the moment, whether it’s love, whether it’s an opportunity, whatever it is, we don’t really say, “Does this pass my highest values test, highest values filter?”

The second question—so if the answer’s “no,” then you don’t do whatever this is. You’re already done. But if it does pass your highest values test, then the second question is, “Does it give me energy or drain me of energy?”

CP: Oh, such a good question!

NS: Yes, because this is where women get in trouble. Because if it does pass the Values Filter Test, but it drains them of energy, then I put that in a “maybe” category, because that’s more obligation than inspiration. And if it passes their Values Filter Test, and it gives them energy, now you’re talking inspiration. Now we’re in a different realm and it’s time to take action.

It’s not like you always have to do everything that completely inspires you. It’s true that living life, there are somethings that are obligations that probably don’t give you that much energy that need to get done. But pay attention to how many decisions in that arena you’re taking on. If you’re filing all of them, and saying, “Yes, it passes my Values Filter Test but drains me of energy,” and you see that a majority of your decisions are going there, you’re going to have the answer to why you’re feeling low energy.

So how do you overcome that fear to taking action? One of the most important things is paying attention to self versus other, and that whole obligation piece of it is oftentimes when it’s for someone else but not really for your own heart. It doesn’t inspire your own heart. So the Two-Step Decision-Making Tool is how I start to decipher that for myself where it can get confusing.

And if people don’t know whether things give them energy or drain them of energy, you have to pay attention to your own physiology, your own body. For me, I know because I can feel—it kind of moves through the middle of my chest into my throat and into my head. I can feel an energy of excitement. It’s like a tingling feeling, and I know that, “Wow, I’m really jazzed about this.”

And the draining almost feels like the lower half of my body [is] sinking. Almost like quicksand, a little bit. It feels like my stomach starts sinking and I say, “Yes,” yes is coming out of my mouth but that sinking feeling’s happening inside. And that’s the draining for me, but each person will have a unique way.
CP: I feel it in my heart. I feel a very big weight in my heart. I know exactly what you’re talking about. It’s so good to identify that.

NS: Yes, you have to. You have to know that. And just spend one week paying attention to all the interactions, people, tasks, places that you go that give you energy and that drain you of energy. Just keep a little tally of it, and by the end of the week, there’s some serious patterns. [Laughs]

CP: Got it. OK.

NS: The other thing you were asking about [was], how do you overcome the fear of actually taking action, once you decide what it is that you want to do? And I think the most important piece to this is, a lot of people want to look perfect, like their whole life has been about making sure that the whole world thinks that they’re perfect.

I have a saying, which is, “Everything’s renegotiable.” You can do a “take two” on anything. If I want to take a risk and go outside my comfort zone, and my physiology, my body, my heart’s going to start racing, I’m going to feel scared, whatever it is, knowing that I have the capacity to say, “Hey, Chantal, I really didn’t like how our interaction went yesterday, would it be OK if I tried it again?”

CP: God, I love it.

NS: It takes the pressure off. Why do we have to be perfect the first time out? First of all, we aren’t perfect. [Laughs] It’s such a funny rule to try and measure up to. But the peace around “everything’s renegotiable” has given me a lot of grace for myself.

CP: Right, I know. And you know what? I’ve done that too, which is why I appreciate the very last little few pages of your book, the old revisioning—what do you call it? Something about revisioning.

NS: Oh, like rewriting history?

CP: Rewriting history!

NS: [Laughs]

CP: It’s such a great example of that! We’re just using role playing, in a way—also, I love it to prep for conversations that require more courage, but also to redo and re-create the history. I’m always so open to that, and I think when I’ve done that to somebody else—my husband and I do this. “Hey, can we do this over?” And whenever he asks for it or I ask for it, it’s so lovely, and it creates such an intimacy.

NS: It really does. It’s almost like, if we knew that from our mistakes that we’ve made would come, in the take two of it all, the greatest intimacy and connection and learning and growth, would we be so afraid to go for it and make those mistakes? Because what comes afterward is so beautiful.

CP: Yes. And I think that’s the danger of some talk programs. I know there’s a few out there that are fantastic, like Nonviolent Communication with Marshall Rosenberg, and yours is certainly very comprehensive in a very different approach, but equally, in my view, very effective. But there is this—I’ve always felt like, “Oh my gosh, what do I do now? OK, now I have to say this.” I think to have that opportunity to just say, “You know what, I’m not going to get this right, and I’m trying this out, so hang with me and just be really open about it.” I think that that is just so lovely. And I really appreciate that angle in your book.

NS: You know, it’s so true. The answer is always the truth, right? So if I want to have a conversation with you and I didn’t like how something went, but I’m feeling awkward about it, me saying, “Hey, I’d like to try this again. I feel really awkward right now. In fact, my stomach’s turning, and I’m going to try it anyway, please give me some feedback on how I did.” It’s like the other person is so willing to give us this openness and grace most of the time, when we just share that we’re doing something that’s uncomfortable for us.

So I feel like the truth is always the answer. It’s funny, when I work in companies, that’s what I always say to them. They call me in and pay me money to basically get everyone in the room to say the truth, just say what’s on their mind and really say what’s up, but do it in a way that’s love and compassionate and connected, that builds a bridge to one another.

I think honesty has gotten a bad rap in this sense. People think it’s rude or it’s brutal honesty or whatever it is. I really believe that it’s what is causing a lot of addiction and disconnection and loneliness and depression in our world. That somehow we haven’t learned to listen to our hearts, speak the truth, and be able to separate what is ours and what is about our belonging to other.

And if we can get really clear about those pieces, it becomes much easier to sort through it and have an honest conversation. And do these take twos. Let’s do a do-over. It seems to me that if the world could do do-overs, wouldn’t it be an amazing place? Wouldn’t we just be all connected, learning, and laugh at ourselves a little bit more?

CP: Oh my gosh, that would be so fantastic. I can think of some political decisions that could use a do-over! [Laughs]

NS: [Laughs]

CP: And the world, oh my Lord!

NS: Yes! And the other piece about taking action is, when you do take action and you ask for something, making sure that you actually have an agreement. I think a lot of people do a “he-said, she-said” dilemma, because they don’t actually know what an agreement is. And I think it’s really important to understand that when you have a committed agreement to something, or when someone is just merely telling you that they think it’s a good idea.

CP: Exactly. So when there’s a suggestion coming up, to really clearly say, “Do we have an agreement?” and articulate that before the end of the conversation?

NS: It would be this simple: it would be as simple as you and I trying to, let’s say, go see a movie. So if we’re trying to see a movie, and I ask you, “Hey, Chantal, would you like to go see a movie?” and you say something as simple as, “Oh, I didn’t know that that movie was out already.” You merely acknowledged that I spoke. But you didn’t really give me a concrete agreement, right?

Now, if you said, “Oh wow, I’ve been dying to see that movie, ever since I saw the trailer last fall!” And I think, “Oh, she’s definitely coming with me.” Well, not true. You acknowledged that I spoke, and what you did differently here was you actually showed some interest that you might want to actually do this activity with me, but you haven’t committed to anything.

And then if I said, “Hey, would you like to go to the movies?” and I told you specifically which one, and you said, “Yes, absolutely. I’ve been wanting to see that. And I’m having company come over this weekend, so I need to make sure everything’s taken care of at home and the meals are cooked before I leave for a movie. So as long as all of that gets done, I’ll be there.” Now, what you said is “yes,” but you’ve given me all these qualifiers about why you might not actually be there. And you’ve given me the reason why, 10 minutes ahead of time, I would bet, you’re going to be the one who flakes on me and texts me and says, “Go ahead without me, I’m not done yet.”

Or, if I said, “Hey, Chantal, want to go see the movie this weekend, the new James Bond movie?” and you say, “Yes,” I bet you our weekend is going to be—I’m a busy woman, you’re a busy woman. I’ll bet you we’ll see each other at the gym next week and we’ll say, “Oh, we were supposed to go to the movies! We definitely got it on the calendar, right?” The only time we actually have an agreement is when you and I say, “We’re going to the Embarcadero Theatre at 1:00 for the matinee show this Saturday. I’ll meet you there.” And we have a “yes” and details confirmed.

It’s that clear. So anything before that “yes,” details confirmed, is still an agreement in negotiation. So even if you say to someone, “Hey, do we have an agreement,” and somebody says, “Yes, we definitely do,” but you haven’t set the time or place, you haven’t really put the details around it, you actually don’t have an agreement.

So sometimes when women ask for what they want, but they’re a little bit scared to put it out there—like, I’d really like to spend time with you, but I won’t nail it down. “I’d love to go away for a three-day weekend, I’d love it to be you and me, and I’d love for us to hang out and do what we used to do in college, go mountain biking,” whatever it is. Unless I’m really clear about what that is, it often leads to two people having a very different idea about what the action is and disappointment at the end, which is, you might bring two friends and I really thought it was going to be me and you because we were roommates in college and I really wanted to have a reminiscing weekend with me and you, but I never really said that.

So the clarity of what you want, and how you take action and really solidify the details, will determine how well it works for you. Listen, there’s always feedback and renegotiating. So if it doesn’t work, you get to say, “You know what? What worked about it this time for me was this, and next time, what I’d really love to do is this.” So it’s not the end of the world if it doesn’t actually happen, but it gives you information.

CP: Yes, [and] I just think your whole approach is about practice, practicing.

NS: And I say to anyone who’s saying, “Oh, this takes a lot of time, it’s hard,” I say, “How many times a day do you communicate with people, from one-word answers to hour-long talks? An awful lot.” So being good at getting what you want because you’re a clear communicator—at whatever point in your life you decided it’s important, the rest of your life will exponentially get better. So it just depends at what point in your life do you want to invest in communication?

So for me, it’s just been personal freedom. I had such a hard time with this. I had all the education in the world. I didn’t get out of school until I was 31 years old, but nobody ever really taught me, really, what was going to give me connection and happiness, and really decrease my stress levels. So I guess I’d say the connection, health, and happiness.

CP: Yes. Once again, I feel like the work here is really about creating intimacy and harmony with people that we work with, people that we live with, and this is a very clear road map. Well, thank you so much for your time, Neha, and we’re looking forward to having you at Emerging Women Live in San Francisco! More TalkRx to be had.

NS: Oh, I cannot wait. I’m so excited!

CP: OK, well, we’ll see you soon.

NS: All right, thanks, Chantal.

CP: Take care, bye-bye.

In today’s episode, Jane and I speak about:

• Women in the corporate arena and what challenges they face
• Myths about business success, having confidence, and knowing what fills your cup
• How to deal with difficult people in the business world
• Jane’s Business Dark Night of the Soul and how she got through it
• The one thing women can do to increase personal power and influence in the world

We hope you enjoy “Sleep Your Way to the Top (and Other Myths About Business Success)” with the accomplished and inspirational: Jane Miller.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

In today’s episode, Neha and I speak about:

• What she means by interpreting your body and then interpreting your thoughts
• The importance of Self-Awareness and how our thoughts teach us more about ourselves than anything else
• The 5 components of communication
• Anger as a limiting factor in difficult conversations and how to overcome it
• Slowing down to speed up: using awareness and understanding to resolve problems in communication quickly

Don’t miss an episode: Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

Liz is the author of 2006’s runaway bestseller Eat, Pray, Love, which has sold more than ten million copies worldwide, as well as her most recent novel, The Signature of All Things. Her forthcoming book, Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear will hit bookstands in September 2015. In Big Magic Liz asks the reader to embrace curiosity and let go of needless suffering. She shows how to tackle what we most love, and how to face down what we most fear. She discusses the attitudes, approaches, and habits we need in order to live our most creative lives.

Topics in this Episode:

• Originality vs. Authenticity – how we should stop striving to be original and embrace authenticity
• Complaining, and Gratitude as an antidote
• Giving yourself permission to be creative
• How Liz stays in touch with the divine

Looking for Part 1? Listen here.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

This is part 1 (of 2) of my conversation with Elizabeth. Liz is the author of 2006’s runaway bestseller Eat, Pray, Love, which has sold more than ten million copies worldwide. Her forthcoming book, Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear will hit bookstands in September 2015. In Big Magic, Liz asks the reader to embrace curiosity and let go of needless suffering. She shows how to tackle what we most love, and how to face down what we most fear. She discusses the attitudes, approaches and habits we need in order to live our most creative lives.

In today’s episode, Liz and I spoke about:

• How Fear can block creativity
• The Fear we ‘need’ and the Fear we don’t
• Being open to the “Yes,” but finding wisdom in the “No”
• How inspiration promises us nothing
• Hard Labor vs Fairy Dust and the balance that she seeks in her life

I hope you enjoy part 1 of my conversation “Creating Big Magic” with the trailblazer of personal voice and creativity: Elizabeth Gilbert.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate Grace & Fire while you’re there!

She is dedicated to inspiring depth, creativity, and joy by sharing the most potent tools from a variety of world traditions. She brings an openhearted, inclusive worldview to her writings and teachings, which are a rich blend of Toltec wisdom, European shamanism, Buddhism, and Native American ceremony.

She is the author of Warrior Goddess Training, The Toltec Path of Transformation and co-author of No Mistakes: How You Can Change Adversity into Abundance. HeatherAsh Amara lives in Austin, Texas and travels extensively around the world, speaking and teaching workshops.

In today’s episode, HeatherAsh and I spoke about:

• Her background and how she was attracted to Earth-based spirituality and her concept of the Warrior Goddess
• The Toltec Tradition and the 4 Agreements:
  • Be Impeccable with your Word
  • Don’t Take Anything Personally
  • Don’t Make Assumptions
  • Always Do Your Best
• Dealing with the Inner Critic
• Using the agreements to enrich creative and sexual energy
• The difference between Intuition and the Mental Habits of the Mind

Here is my  conversation “Becoming a Warrior Goddess” with the Warrior Goddess herself: HeatherAsh Amara.

As her gift to you, download two free chapters of the Warrior Goddess Training book. And when you buy her book, you’ll receive HeatherAsh’s 11-day online Warrior Goddess bootcamp for free.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

Amanda Palmer is a rock star, former street performer, and a crowdfunding pioneer, who knows all about asking. Performing as a living statue in a wedding dress, she wordlessly asked thousands of passersby for their dollars.

After creating the world’s most successful music Kickstarter campaign for her album with the Grand Theft Orchestra, she has written a book titled: The Art of Asking: How I learned to Stop Worrying and Let People Help. In her new memoir she tells the story of an artist struggling with the new rules of exchange in the twenty-first century and inspires readers to rethink their own ideas about asking, giving, art and love.

There are so many cool things about this woman – not least of which is her post-modern retro punk cabaret band called the Dresden Dolls. She is also married to Neil Gaiman, my favorite comic book illustrator and writer of all things. But perhaps what I love the most about Amanda Palmer is the fact that her nickname is Amanda Fucking Palmer – somehow it just feels right!

In today’s episode, Amanda and I spoke about:

• The Art of Asking and how she learned this art
• A constant theme in her life: balancing vulnerability with control
• Dealing with the fear of rejection – and how to ask anyway
• Relationship based communication and the need to still ask for help
• The Art of Receiving as an integral part of the ask

Here is my conversation “The Art (and Power) of Asking” with the wildly inspirational: Amanda Fucking Palmer.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript

Hi, welcome Amanda. How are you?

Amanda Palmer: I’m wonderful, how are you?

CP: I’m a little bit outside myself, because I feel like I’ve been stalking you a little bit. [Laughs]

AP: [Laughs]

CP: So I’m so excited. For the listeners who are tuning in here, this is my first time really talking to Amanda. I think we spoke for a half a minute prior to this, and I’ve been “reading” your book—I’m saying that in quotes here because I love to listen to books on audio—

AP: Oh, great!

CP: Yes, and I want to say that I’m promoting the audio version of The Art of Asking, because there’s so much in there that’s not in the book. I feel like I’ve really gotten to know you through it, and your voice. So I feel an intimacy.

AP: Yes, it’s really nice, as a musician, to put out an audio book, because that’s my medium. That’s what I’m used to, and it’s really nice to add the music and the songs to weave within the story. They really belong there.

CP: I love that you sang your intro. It was fabulous.

AP: [Laughs]

CP: [Laughs] It was so great!

AP: Thank you. I’m glad you like it.

CP: I just thought it was so unique, and you—just by way of full disclosure, I’m just going to get this out here now so we can get the stalking vibration out. I am also a huge fan—when I was in college, it was Love and Rockets and The Sandman. I mean, that was my deal. So [I’m a] huge fan of your husband, Neil Gaiman, and his work. And when I saw you coming forward on the fabulous TED talk, and I realized who you were, I was like, “Oh my God.” Can you be in love with a couple?

AP: Totally! If your polyamorous.

CP: Right? So I was in love with Neil, and now I’m in love with you, and the two of you together just makes so much groovy sense, it’s off the charts. I feel especially honored today.

AP: Thank you. It makes me really happy when people love Neil’s work, because I love him. And the really lucky thing was I wasn’t a Neil Gaiman fan, and I think that might have been a deal breaker. So I got to fall in love with the weird guy, not The Sandman author. [Laughs] I had to catch up.

CP: Right. Oh, great. What I thought we would start with today is maybe a little background on how you came into this work. I know a lot of this stems from your experience as a traveling musician and a performing artist, but the work I’m referring to is this art of asking, and how that emerged inside of you and what the journey was and where it [plays] out in different parts of your life.

AP: Oh my—that’s like an hour-long [story]!

CP: You’re going to talk and I’m going to interrupt! That’s usually how these podcasts go. [Laughs]

AP: Well, the first thing it makes me think of is the fundamental training I got, without totally realizing it as it was happening, when I was a street performer. And I grew up in kind of a basic, suburban situation. Not a lot of artists around me. But [I was] very, very into music and theater and record collecting and everything I could get my hands on. Politically liberal, but a somewhat conservative family in that there was one path: you went to college and went to a liberal arts college. That’s what all my older brothers and sisters did, and that’s what you did in my family.

I kind of went kicking and screaming because I just had no desire to go to college, but I went. And I didn’t have the best of times. I suffered through it. But as soon as I got out the other side and was finally free to make my own decisions in life, I went straight to the street and became a street performer. And no one guided me. I didn’t have a street performer mentor. I didn’t even really know any street performers. I just saw people doing it and thought, “Who’s going to stop me from doing that if I get up and do it?”

So from the time I graduated college, I made money in a ton of strange ways. My primary income for four or five years was in Harvard Square as a living statue standing on a box. I talk about that in my TED talk and I talk about that at length in the book. I definitely started out with a particular bent, but standing on a box and standing still until strangers give you money and then having a moment of connection with them year after year after year really did pound in the philosophy that I kind of tentatively started with to begin with, which is the idea that human beings, if given the opportunity, are fundamentally generous, do want to connect with each other, do like helping artists. It’s maybe naïve, but definitely an optimistic outlook. If I wanted to be an artist, I would find the people who wanted to help because I knew they existed.

And that’s the attitude that I brought to music when I started a band, which was my real passion, because I was a songwriter and I knew I wanted to fundamentally follow that path. And I sort of just took my street performing attitude into rock ‘n’ roll. It didn’t feel strange to me and didn’t seem odd to constantly invite my fans on the stage and ask them for help and constantly connect with everybody, answer every fan letter, stand in the midst of my fans and not separate myself.

As I traveled through the world more and more, I realized the way the Dresden Dolls—which was my band—I want to say it was unique, but it wasn’t even unique. It was just a different lineage. Even though we were working in the world of rock ‘n’ roll, we were sort of like a folk band with rock music. We were about the community and we were about staying with our fans and we were about trying to help everybody. And we had a lot more in common with the folk scene and the punk scene than we did with the rock scene and the rock circuit that we were mostly touring on.

CP: And so, just to clarify, [when you were] the human statue, you were a mime bride, which I think is lovely. Is that correct, you were dressed in a bride’s outfit?

AP: Yes, I was all white, covered in a giant white gown with white gloves and a black wig. Unless I was at a crazy festival where I just couldn’t keep up with the demand, I handed out daisies. I handed out white daisies. A work shift was just as long as the flowers lasted, then I was done.

CP: There’s something—and this, I know, plays out also when you’re playing music, but there’s something about that that’s both intimate and isolating, and I’m wondering if you could express that a little bit. You’re frozen—and you say this in your book—where it’s almost like protection, or you can retreat, even though you’re out there in the middle of Harvard Square, and you’re totally exposed, and sometimes it’s raining, and sometimes people are not so nice. But at the same time, you refer to it as almost a protection, that you can hide behind your stillness. And I thought that was so interesting and I’d love to hear more about what that’s like for you.

AP: You know what’s fascinating about that is that there’s such a parallel between what you just said, that aspect of being a living statue, and what it’s like to be on stage singing these really vulnerable songs and pouring your heart out and bearing yourself. But simultaneously, you’re kind of in control. You’re the one in the spotlight, you’re the one behind the piano, you’re the one deciding how far you want to push things and how much you want to reveal yourself and how much you want to pull back. Which you decide moment to moment, depending on the venue and the audience and how much you are able to give in that moment, how much you trust that particular audience.

It’s almost the same thing. And [it’s] one of the things—just one of the themes of my life that I’ve been so fascinated by, because it shows up everywhere: in my marriage, in my job history, on stage. It’s a real tightrope between control and total vulnerability, and balancing between these two extremes all the time. I mean, look who I picked for a husband. [Laughs] I picked the gigantic guy with huge fame and busyness and stuff, but who was also really vulnerable. Neil is a perfect example of the extremes in himself, and that’s part of why we really recognized each other.

And in all of the jobs I’ve done—you know, I was a dominatrix, for Christ’s sake. That’s a job—and I actually just finished reading a fantastic book by Melissa Febos, who details her four years of working in a dungeon in New York City, and it’s the same thing. There’s this façade of ultimate control, but also you’re the employee, you’re the one getting paid. There is this kind of crazy dance between who actually is in power here. And I felt that as a statue, and I felt it as a stripper, and I felt it as a dominatrix, and I still feel it on stage. I feel it with my husband. It’s that amazing yin/yang of dancing between control and no control.

CP: In that art of asking, is there a certain ratio of control to vulnerability that actually yields better results? Not that one is always asking with a specific result in mind, but sometimes—and I think you’re a master of this, you ask in ways when you don’t even verbally ask for things. We’re going to get to that. But what is it, if you ask with more vulnerability you’ll get what you want? Or is it if you have more control over the messaging when you ask? What is that inner play between control and vulnerability in the art of asking?

AP: The crazy thing about that is that it’s so specific to the situation. And people who are good at asking know that wherever you are, in whatever position or situation, you’re standing and facing somebody else, whether you are the asker or the askee, part of being good at asking is knowing that the ecosystem of the balance of power is different in every moment, with every situation. There are moments when being vulnerable just approaches the idiotic and the masochistic, and then there’s moments when showing your vulnerability actually pulls you up to a place of real empowerment.

Because there are times where being truly vulnerable—not just faking it and not just saying the words and not just offering up the token because you think you’re going to get what you want. Those moments, and knowing how to shift those gears—that is just the work of life, and that is the work of every single human being I know who’s decided to be in relationship with other people, which is, uh, everybody. [Laughs] One of the things that I found so lovely about this book is when it came down to it, I realized that the stuff that I was talking about was so fundamental to everybody I knew in a relationship: when do you face your pride, swallow your pride, and just ask for what you need? And what’s getting in the way if you find yourself unable to do that?

And, on the flip side, what’s too much to ask for? When do you turn into that needy asshole instead of someone who is really stepping up to the plate and making yourself vulnerable and asking for something reasonable? And we all torture ourselves with these questions all day. Am I asking for too much from my husband? Am I taking too much? Am I being too selfish? Am I being too greedy? All those things.

CP: Well, how do you know?

AP: Oh my—search me! [Laughs] I don’t know! I think if I knew, I’d explode in a beam of light and never be seen again. [Laughs] I don’t think you know. I think it’s like the meaning of life, you search for it, but you know you’re never going to find it.

CP: I wonder though, after reading your book, I feel like the default is to ask and then deal with the repercussions after, rather than not ask.

AP: Yes, I think that’s a pretty safe default, when in doubt. If you’re in actual, serious doubt, then chances are, for the vast majority of people I know, yes, the default should be, “You’re probably afraid, and if you’re really on the fence, eat it and ask.” Because that’s usually the correct door.

But, again, that really depends. In certain situations—I face this with younger musicians all the time, who see the flip side of that, because they sometimes ask before they’re ready. They ask before they have enough to give. They ask before they’re ready to do the work. They ask the universe to pay for their tour bus, but they don’t have a fan base yet. And it’s in cases like that where I’m like, “Eh, you know, you’re not ready yet.” You can’t ask before you have an audience. You can’t go out on a first date with someone and be like, “So, do you want to have kids? Do you want to get married?” That’s actually not the best bet. It’s context.

CP: How do you deal with rejection?

AP: Badly, usually. [Laughs]

CP: [Laughs] Thank you!

AP: You’re welcome! Oh man, it’s definitely gotten easier, and I don’t just say that to be corny. I’ve dealt with my fair share of it in the industry, within the music business, and certainly Internet lives and personally. I’ve been rejected as a person with ideas, as a woman who won’t  cop to the beauty standard, as a million things. And one of the things I’ve found about life is that if you trudge on, it just gets easier. It gets easier to be rejected because you just stop taking it so personally.

Neil said something funny, didn’t he, once, when he was talking about reading reviews of his first book, or his first big book, when he put American Gods out. And the reviews started to come in, especially the user reviews, the customer reviews on Amazon. And they were either really glowing or really, really shitty. He was just stacking up all these one-star and five-star reviews, and there was nothing in the middle. Which feels very much like my life. My life seems to be a sea of one-star and five-star reviews. And he said he got to a certain point where he stopped reading any of the reviews and just started counting them. And he figured if he was getting a lot reviews, whether they were one-star reviews or five-star reviews, the book was probably doing well.

And that’s a great metaphor for dealing with rejection and criticism, especially when you start realizing that life isn’t personal, and that most people who are out there aggressively rejecting me are dealing with their own fears and their own issues. It all starts to feel a lot easier. Especially when you’ve built up your own community of smart and interesting people who actually do understand me and know where I’m coming from and are happy to have a dialog about ideas instead of an outright rejection of who I am. There’s plenty enough to feed me while all that noise goes on in the background, and it gets a lot easier to ignore.

CP: Let’s talk more about that. That is also another theme throughout the book, and just the way you market, is this really what I consider a new approach to the economy, really, is relationship-based communication, where you’re not just sending out communication in a one- way vehicle. You have a lot of—you’re working with Reverb. It seems like it’s a conversation. And I’m curious how that has helped shape your work on asking through building this wide net that you’ve cast in relationship and dialog. How does that art of asking play out in that arena?

AP: Well, it’s been everything, because if I had started the band and then moved on to my solo career, which I did in 2008—if I hadn’t gotten the response that I did, and I hadn’t had the conversation partners that I had on the Internet, whether it was by blog comments in the early days or Myspace later and then with Twitter and Facebook and all the various forms of social media, if I hadn’t had an intelligent dialog partner in my fans, I would kind of be working in a vacuum. I wouldn’t feel like I was collectively part of something.

Which I have to say is something that really fascinates me about huge pop stars who have giant social media followings. They have such big followings with such a giant percentage of vapid conversationalists, that I wonder if I’m not just really lucky to be in a sweet spot where I post a photo on Instagram or I post an article on Facebook and all of the responses that I see are intelligent responses about the content and about the ideas, about life and about love. They’re smart responses. And then you go to an Instagram post by Katy Perry or Justin Bieber or Lady Gaga or a huge pop star, and all you see is, “Oh my God, I love you! Oh my God, I love you! Oh my God, when are you going to come to Brazil? Oh my God Oh my God Oh my god!” I’m like, “Man, that must be so lonely.” Because you don’t get to talk. You don’t get to go back and forth. You get showered with unconditional love, but you don’t get to engage in a conversation.

And that’s what I love. What I love is that I’ve been engaged in an awesome, funny, intelligent conversation with my fans since 2001, since I first started my blog. And that’s made everything possible. If that conversation hadn’t been happening, my Kickstarter wouldn’t have been successful. I wouldn’t have been able to launch a Patreon yesterday and get everyone in the community saying, “Of course we’re going to help you! We’ve known you for years. We trust you, we think this is great.” And that speaks as much for the caliber of the fan base than it does for me, because you don’t get to pick your fans, they pick you, and then you just hope that they’re good, intelligent people.

CP: Yes, but there’s also, I think, something in the way that you’re delivering your art, which is, like you said, very back and forth. It’s a dialog that creates the space, not only for asking—in other words, there’s a lot that happens through the community that you’ve built where you’re manifesting, so to speak, a lot of what’s useful to you as an artist through just having relationships, instead of just having to ask all the time. I think that’s the magic: watching you lead with your dialog leading with relationship. The rest, it’s almost like, do you even really need to ask when you have that?

AP: Yes, except that you do. Because if you don’t ever ask, you never get paid.

CP: Got it, right.

AP: And at the end of the day, I still need to run a business. And I have to decide—I could just go out, put all my music up for free on YouTube and chat away on Facebook all day, but I’d never be paid for anything. And everyone would be very happy to engage. My way of getting paid a couple years ago was Kickstarter. My way of getting paid nowadays is going to be Patreon. And that’s also a choice, [to] not go get a giant label advance, [to] not get paid by the industry, but to ask my fans to just pay me directly so that I don’t have to fight with a label, so that I don’t have to go through a bigger channel and a middle man. Even though that’s got its advantages. I certainly did that with the book. And I could have chosen not to.

I could have just gone straight to my fan base and said, “Hey, who’s going to preorder a book for $30? Preorder it now, I’m going to write it for the next year, you guys will get this book in a year.” I probably would have made a killing at the outset, but I kind of wanted people outside my fan base to read the book. I didn’t want to just mail it to the choir. I wanted to work for a publisher who could bring in people outside my fan base, because I wanted this book to be for everybody. So I chose to work within the system, and I took an advance from a publisher and I worked for them, and I did it really happily. I was glad I did it that way.

CP: A lot of your messaging and your music, and also the way that you’re promoting yourself through this heavy community-oriented dialog, there’s opportunity there to address issues that are important to you and to dialog on issues that actually make a difference in the world. And recently, you had a—there’s reference to political correctness. I’m just curious to see what you think of that, and how art can reflect different mindsets and how that’s an edge for you at times, being PC, so to speak, but also having the freedom to be artistically expressive.

AP: Yes, I mean, that’s a huge topic right now for everybody in a lot of ways. I’ve always been a real champion of art being able to be as politically uncorrect and as risky and as brave and as offensive as it needs to be, as possible, because I think that’s what art is for. I think the forum and the stage for art is where we are allowed to go crazy.

That being said, I believe deeply in compassion for everybody, and I do not like seeing anybody harmed. So certainly that cannot include performance art where you slice people’s throats open. And it shouldn’t include a world in which political cartoonists are getting gunned down for expressing themselves. I think the dialog that popped up after Charlie Hebdo was definitely one worth having, but it was painful to me to see people saying, “Well, wait a second, maybe the problem here is that we should dial back on the art, because maybe this art is dangerous.” And it’s like, “No, that’s a really slippery slope, guys.”

The minute you start deciding to censor a little bit of art over here and a little bit of art over there—we’ve seen what happens with that in the past. That’s when you wind up in a dictatorship eventually, and it’s just too dangerous. I would rather live in a world where art is allowed to be offensive and then we argue about the ideas and we declare our offendedness, than a world where we just zip it and don’t create things that might cause waves. Because that’s when we all go down together, and it’s just too dangerous.

I sort of feel the same way about political correctness. I’m a huge feminist and I’m a  champion for anybody who has been victimized in any way. The one thing I see happening constantly nowadays on the Internet is women, especially, tearing each other apart when they should be helping each other. And a lot of it is over political correctness and language. It’s really disheartening to see so many people intentions—which you can kind of feel out are all fundamentally good—clashing with each other so badly that you feel like the whole ship is just sinking.

Because people are so unable to be tolerant of the slightest difference in approach, the slightest difference in language. And then you just wind up with everybody divided and you wind up with black feminists screaming at white feminists and white feminists screaming at transpeople who are using the wrong fucking language. And you’re just like, “Guys, this isn’t going to work.” There really needs to be a larger umbrella of understanding and compassion and tolerance, and I feel like it is backsliding at an alarming rate, and it really worries me.

CP: Well, that’s why I feel like the opportunity lies in the hands of the artists because this is so complicated, and the more that we try to put it into boxes and put labels on them and try and come up with rules of engagement and diction, I think we just keep pinning ourselves further and further away from the core and the intention of our desires. And that is on the women’s side to really [create] a world where we can have free expression across all colors and sectors. So to me, the mess is an opportunity for artists to really just unleash themselves in these arenas and let the conversations ensue from there, rather than the policy makers or, like, “Let’s get this feminist thing right, she didn’t mention women of color, she didn’t mention transgender.” It just feels so oppressive, and quite frankly, masculine![Laughs] I want some chaos around it!

AP: It’s like the weird uniform of oppression. Well, me and my super hippy-dippy way, my approach is always, “If we all just were able to step back and practice hardcore compassion and really, really take the worldview that everybody deserves compassion—I mean everybody, from the left to the right, every single human being, no matter what they’ve done, no matter what they’ve perpetrated.” If you can take a worldview that extreme, that everyone deserves compassion, including the people who’ve wronged you, harmed you, hurt you—that’s been my life practice, and it has changed everything. And it does change everything. You find yourself just unable to hate people, unable to judge people without feeling really terrible about it, unable to scream at anybody. Because the feedback is just so fast, that it’s not helping, you’re not being compassionate, that the greater good is not being served when you engage with anger and with fear.

And anger has its place. When it’s time for change and you really have to move, anger can be a great motivator. But it can also eat its own tail pretty quickly, and that’s what I feel like I see happening all the time, anger getting so misguided and so overused and outrage being such an instinctive reaction on the part of so many people so fast. But you’re like, “Man, we should be saving this for the big one.” Because if we’re all just using up our outrage daily on Tumblr yelling at this person, that person, and the other one for being slightly imperfect, we’re not going to have the energy we need when it comes to really putting the energy where it matters: saving the planet, taking care of each other, doing the things that are hugely important and don’t just have to do with the verbiage on an Instagram post.

CP: OK, I’m going to switch back here to this asking. So you’ve cultivated an art, and the saying goes that we end up teaching on things that we need to learn the most for ourselves, and just listening to this story with Neil and how your relationship’s playing out, I just know how hard is has been for you to ask. But here’s my question: what about receiving? How are you as a receiver?

AP: It’s also really hard!

CP: Right?

AP: I mean, it is ultimately the same practice. It really is. If you’re looking at the art of asking, you might as well call it the art of receiving, because you can’t master one without trying to master the other. Because you’re never just on one side of the fence. You’re always switching back and forth. And they are one in the same. They are the opposite sides of the same coin. The same way that you can’t claim to be practicing compassion but you won’t allow other people to have compassion for you because you’re too wrapped up in the masochistic, you feel that you’re undeserving or whatnot. You really have to let it flow both ways or it doesn’t work.

And the art of receiving—I discuss this in the book. One of the things that is so hard about asking is that somewhere under there you feel unworthy to receive, and that can be the biggest thing that trips you up. It’s not that you feel rude, it’s that you feel like, “Maybe I don’t deserve to ask for this. Maybe this is too much. Maybe this is not right.” A lot of it is—especially in this culture—[that] things are so wonky and we’re sent this bizarre-o split message, especially as women. On the one hand, if you look at all the marketing that’s aimed at women, it’s all about, “You’re good enough, you’re smart enough, you’re so powerful, you can do anything you want, you’re so great.” It’s kind of all of this over-bloated, mad, independent self-confidence.

And then almost in the same breath, you’re told, “You’re completely inadequate unless you are perfect, unless you look great, unless you have money, unless, unless, unless, unless. You’re kind of unworthy.” And you wonder why everyone is freaking out nowadays and living in a permanent identity crisis. [Laughs] Because we’re constantly being sent a mixed message.

CP: Yes. That’s, to me, the power of really having strong relationships around you, to just make the world sane. As these inputs come in, we need to process them, and having that dialog with people we admire is probably the only way to get through all of that before it changes. So my next question—this will be our last—I’m curious if you have words of wisdom for women that are emerging. They’re on the edge. The emergence process, when you’re about to create something huge or you’ve got an idea and you’re on fire about it, you can’t sleep, you’re expanding—but with that comes fear. With that comes self-doubt. With that comes, “I don’t want to ask,” and feelings of isolation. What advice would you give to women who are on that precipice of that great emergence?

AP: I think the best advice there is to remind women—or anyone, really—that fear is not the enemy, and that you’re really normal. And that the real practice and the wisdom comes with just working with the fear. Because anybody who tells you they’re trying to—whether they’re an artist or a business person or whatever—change the world and they’re trying to break paradigms and they’re trying to create great art—anyone who tells you that they did is fearlessly is just lying. There’s always a fear of rejection or that you’re not going to be able to get it as perfectly as you saw it in your mind or that it’s going to piss somebody off and you’re not going to get it right. The fears are endless. They’re just limitless. But you do it anyway.

And I think one of the problems that a lot of artists have, and a lot of women have, is they think they’re not supposed to be afraid. And they think there’s somehow something wrong with them if they’re approaching the precipice and they’re heart stops beating and they freak out. Nope, that’s totally normal. That’s kind of the way it plays out. And the difference between the choice you make in that moment to just take a deep breath and sit with the fear and do it anyway, and risk failure, and risk being shamed, and risk people looking at you like you’re crazy, and risk losing money, and risk getting yelled at—whatever it is, taking the risk while you’re afraid anyway, that is the work.

And it can be really comforting to remember, from giant CEOs to huge rock stars, we’re actually always a little afraid when we step up to the podium, but we do it anyway. And you’re like, “Yep, I’m afraid. Yep, there’s that huge afraid feeling. Yep, I recognize you. Here we go anyway.” And there’s something in not feeling alone in your fear that’s really nice. I have to say, having met so many other women, huge performers and women who run giant companies and women who are off changing the world in a million way, [now I] know that they’re just as insecure and freaked out and often indecisive and constantly struggling with regret and whatever.

The more I’ve traveled and talked to these women, and the less alone I feel, the easier it is to do my work. Because I get it. Because I get that it’s not like you emerge one day out of your cocoon and you’re Super Woman. It just never happens. You just learn to walk with the fear and almost befriend it. Which is not to say it becomes easy. It never becomes easy. But it does become manageable. And for the women I know who are just like warriors out there battling, that’s the key they’ve learned. It’s not that they’ve become fearless, it’s that they befriend the fear and manage it.

CP: Damn, that’s good! Thank you! [Laughs]

AP: Thanks! I should write a book, man!

CP: Boom, baby, boom!

AP: I’m on a roll! I haven’t even had my coffee yet and I spit that out!

CP: Yo. Well, we got it here, and I’m so happy to have connected with you, and more to

come. Thank you so much, Amanda.

AP: Thank you. This was great.

CP: Take care.

The brains behind Overcoming Underearning and Sacred Success, Barbara is about pursuing your soul’s purpose, for your own bliss and the benefit of others, while being richly rewarded. Barbara Stanny’s new book: Sacred Success: A Course in Financial Miracles is a tutorial for taking charge of your life by taking charge of your finances, and not only growing your money but creating a deeper, richer, and more meaningful life.

In today’s episode, Barbara and I spoke about:

• What she means by success and why many women fear their power
• Moving through the 3 levels of Financial Development: Survival, Stability, and Affluence
• The dangers of giving up our power
• Common patterns in women’s personal finances and how to create affluence
• Law of Attraction vs. Law of Congruency
• Modeling Greatness and pursuing your purpose
• The most important practice in her new book: Sacred Success.

Here is my conversation “Sacred Success: A Women’s Guide to Authentic Power & Affluence” with the great and powerful: Barbara Stanny.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

Vicki Saunders is a serial entrepreneur, passionate mentor and advisor to the next generation of change makers, and leading advocate for entrepreneurship as a way of creating positive transformation in the world.

Vicki is founder of SheEO. SheEO supports women who leverage their talents, strengths and passion to create businesses that build new models, new mindsets and new solutions for a better world. She is also the author of the new book: Think Like a SheEO: Succeeding in the Age of Creators, Makers and Entrepreneurs where she  shows readers how to leverage their talents, strengths, and genuine interests to create businesses that make them happy and successful.

In today’s episode, Vicki and I speak about:

• The current landscape for women entrepreneurs
• Her notion that ‘It doesn’t have to be hard’ and focusing on your strengths
• Meaning is the New Money: the rise of making a difference as more important than making money
• Actually having what you want and creating your own reality
• Crossing what she calls the Fear Threshold
• Her ‘big vision’ for women entrepreneurs

Here is my conversation “Think Like A SheEO” with the original SheEO: Vicki Saunders.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

Susan is a Buddhist teacher and the New York Times bestselling author of seven books, including The Hard Questions and the award-winning How Not to Be Afraid of Your Own Life. Her latest book is entitled The Wisdom of a Broken Heart. She teaches workshops and speaks all over the world on meditation, spirituality, communication, relationships, and creativity. In 2011, Susan launched the Open Heart Project, an online meditation community with nearly 12,000 members who practice together and explore ways to bring spiritual values such as kindness, genuineness, and fearlessness into everyday life.

In today’s episode, Susan and I speak about:

• How fear has unfolded in her life and how you can be confident and fearful at the same time
• How synchronizing the mind and the body is the key to confidence
• Tapping into the power and the beauty of fear
• The careful balance of avoiding the “conceptual game plan” while still having action
• A story of Susan’s own emergence and how to see yourself through the relationships you keep

Here’s my conversation, “Leaning Into Fear and Falling Into Beauty,” with the wise and open-hearted Susan Piver.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript

Chantal Pierrat: Hello, and welcome, Susan.

Susan Piver: Thank you, I’m glad to be here.

CP: Yes, I am too. I have lots of juicy questions for you that are relevant to my life, so I’m glad we’ve carved out the time. Let’s start with—well, we had such a great conversation the first time we met last month, and I just wanted to go in a million different directions. But today I want to talk about fear. You have a couple of books on fear, [including] Freedom from Fear, which I think is your most recent book, and then a book with a very interesting title, How Not to Be Afraid of Your Own Life: Opening Your Heart to Confidence, Intimacy, and Joy. And I know that one is more practical; Freedom from Fear is a seven-day meditation program.

But I’m curious to see, just in your own life, how this topic unfolded for you, and how it came into this—and you also have some audio that you’ve done with Jen Louden. So how did this come through you, and what do you have to say about fear?

SP: OK, well, I always feel like my biggest qualification is my own fear, because I just experience a lot of fear. I always have throughout my life and I still do. It’s something that each of us has to figure out a way to meet. And I was thinking of writing a book about meditation practice, and I wrote a proposal for that book. And in the proposal, there was a line that said something like, “Meditation is so awesome because it teaches you how to not be afraid of your own life.” And when the publisher saw that line, they said, “That’s the title.” So I said, “OK.” [Laughs]

It was very easy to gear the content around the topic of fear because meditation—in particular, I suppose, in the style that I practice, the Shambhala Buddhist tradition—is seen as a gesture of warriorship. And one of the fruits of meditation practice is courage and wakefulness and curiosity and joy. So those were the things that I wanted to focus on, and in doing so, also had to focus on why these wonderful, wonderful qualities are so difficult for us to find and hold.

CP: So right now, in The Atlantic—and I just picked this up so I haven’t read it—there’s an article, it’s on the cover, and they’re calling it “Closing the Confidence Gap,” just talking about even highly successful women are lacking in confidence in their jobs and in the work that they do, even though they’re seen and rewarded for their work and they’re outwardly recognized as being successful. I know for myself, building a business and feeling confident that I can create this platform that is Emerging Women, and yet the fear and the lack of confidence—it’s like you can be confident and fearful or confident and not confident at the same time. How is that?

SP: Isn’t that interesting? Yes. And there’s something in particular about starting your own business, like you just said, that makes every day a sort of confidence gauntlet that you have to run. I also work for myself, and I don’t know about you, but I feel often that I’m as good as my last email. If it was positive, I feel like, “This is working!” And if it was disappointing in any way, then I feel like, “Oh, this is never going to work out.” Going on that ride, more days that not, is exhausting.

I don’t really know a lot of women who don’t struggle with that. But fortunately for us, to reverse that does not require changing the way you think about yourself. Which may sound odd, because you think, “Well, if I only thought better of myself, I would be more confident.” Or, “If I only trusted my capacity to write or teach or build or champion,” or whatever your task might be, “then I could be confident.” But you actually don’t, according to the Buddhist view, have to change anything about your self-view. Rather, what’s required or what is suggested is this synchronization of mind and body, and the notion that fear arises when mind and body are unsynchronized. And I’m sure, as a spiritual practitioner, you know what I mean.

We go through our days and our lives, often, where our mind is on one thing and our body is doing something else. And that is considered the root of fear. And if we can bring those things into union, through meditation practice or yoga or swimming or kissing or cooking or whatever you do that synchronizes mind and body, then confidence is present, not as a kind of self-belief, but as a kind of ease within your own body and mind, which is capable of opening to everything.

So I was very relieved when I realized I didn’t have to start thinking certain things about myself and ban other thoughts. But instead, if I could practice bringing my breath into my body and my mind into the present, that fear would be manageable. And I would posit today that I found that to be true.

CP: Well, I don’t want to say, “Easier said than done!” But I kind of want to say that because it’s so interesting how we rely on the content and the context of our lives to sort of move through and get things done. We can’t just spend our lives breathing and experiencing that synchronicity all the time, because we need—there’s friction, we need to navigate the complexities.

We’re launching businesses, we’re writing books, so we’re moving forward, but I’m curious, if we’re not changing our thoughts—because I love what you’re saying. It’s so refreshing not to have to manipulate our thoughts. Not that I’m against affirmations, but [to] trick our minds into thinking something else is exhausting. But how do you prevent—if I have some thoughts that are thoughts of fear or self-doubt that are coming in, and instead of trying to work with those thoughts, do I want to bring my body into alignment with those thoughts?

SP: That’s really a good question. First of all, “Easier said than done,” absolutely. Anyone who has ever sat on a meditation cushion for more than five minutes knows that it’s just difficult every single time. So yes, definitely easier said than done.

And also, I’m not suggesting that when we feel fear, we drop into meditation, which would be pressing our mind on the breath, because that would be, actually, silly or dangerous, even. But instead, when we’re trained in meditation, for example, in the placement of attention continuously, as much as possible, on breath, then we’re not training ourselves to follow our breath particularly. We’re training ourselves to follow our lives so that when fearful thoughts arise or when a task needs to be accomplished, you can place your mind on that fear or on that task or on that thought with full attention. At that point, you have a lot of options.

But when we’re trying to avoid the things that actually are arising within us—like, “I don’t want to be afraid,” or, “I’m afraid of this so I’m going to try and start doing something else”—that’s when we add to the confusion. So by “fearlessness” here, again, I don’t mean feeling good or confident or even strong. I mean feeling real, feeling truth, feeling genuine, and being willing and able to stay with your experience. Because when we depart from the experience, that’s when fear amplifies.

And when we want to write and are too afraid, or I’m picking a fight with you and you don’t want to get into a fight so you want to get away, it really helps to be able to pay attention to those things without hesitation. That’s one definition of strength. So, yes, we’ve got to get things done, and when you bring your body into alignment with your fear, which was the last part of what you were saying, it actually helps to dissipate fear. Because it’s there now, it’s there in that moment, and instead of tightening up to squeeze it away from yourself, if you open further to make more space, it assumes its rightful shape as just one thing that is going on with you right now. But, like I say, if we try to tear away from it, we’ve “ensmallened” the space in our minds, but when we can turn toward it, we can “enbiggen”—which is not a real word—the space and a bigger view is possible.

CP: And is there—and once again, I’m sort of coming at this from my own personal experience, so if we’re digging in too deep, forgive me. [Laughs] I’m doing it, I’m doing the practice as you’re talking, and I’m thinking it’s almost like a leaning in. I know that you are a student of Sakyong, so leaning into the sharp points is one of the big teachings in that lineage. When you say “making space,” I like that better because it feels—I always had a reaction to “leaning in” to when something was difficult. But I don’t have that reaction to making space because it feels like something else might come in and share that space.

SP: That’s a really interesting thought. Maybe they happen in sequence, like first you have to lean in, which just means, in this case, see or feel or allow. Leaning in is synonymous with allowing. It’s not synonymous with impaling. [Laughs]

CP: Right! [Laughs] Though it feels that way sometimes!

SP: I know, I know! But it’s not, it’s not meant that way as far as I understand it.

CP: Of course, yes.

SP: But then when you allow, then the space naturally expands. But if you don’t lean in, then first you have to arrive in the space, and then you can enbiggen it.

CP: And what’s the role of the body in this practice, with regards to fear?

SP: That’s a great question, and as you ask it, something occurs to me that hadn’t really occurred to me before. I’d say the body is like your navigational device. It’s like your compass, because if you want to feel what you feel, if you want to lean in, that’s not the same as telling yourself a story about what you feel. Leaning in is feeling what you feel without the storyline that you’ve attached to it.

So to do that, the only way to do that that I know of is to find where this sensation resides in your body. So if you feel afraid, are your shoulders hunching? Does your blood feel cold? If you’re angry, does it feel hot? Does your breath get shallower? The body is like the homing device for leaning in. And that’s what I would say the role is. Does that sound right to you? What do you think?

CP: Yes. I mean, I really need to defer to you on this, but it feels right. I feel it in different places in my body, but I also want to say my tendency is to contextualize it again. “Oh, it’s in my heart, therefore that’s the heart chakra and it’s telling me this.” But what I’m understanding from you is that you’re just feeling it.

SP: Yes. And I would never say, “Don’t do those other things.” I do those things too. It’s valuable to contextualize and learn and analyze and think deeply and probe. If those things were devisable, I would not have a job. Luckily that’s what I do most days. What I’m saying is, “Don’t do that first.” Do it second. Keep them separate, and don’t confuse them.

CP: Let’s say we’ve gone through the practice, and I’m synching up my body—which definitely makes sense, though I have resistance to it, I’ve noticed, as we’re talking. I definitely do not want to merge with the fear. That’s kind of the language I’m using, but as I do it, and I’m looking around [laughs] I feel like I’m looking for something else to come into that space. We’ve biggened the space—I love that word—and I’m just wondering, since we’ve made it bigger, is it an antithesis of fear?

And again, I don’t want to be too solutions-oriented, but I feel like fear is not the highest vibration, and when we’re doing spiritual work, I may be eager for something—like maybe the opposite or the answer to come in. I’ve heard it said that love is the antithesis of fear, and maybe people have different versions of that. I’m curious to see if you have any thoughts on that.

SP: Yes. A multitude, actually. The first thing that occurs to me is, how do we know that fear is not the highest vibration in a particular moment? How do we know that? There cannot possibly be rules. There are no rules, in which case there is no statement that says, “Fear is always not the highest vibration.” That’s just too conceptual. And if we walk into our lives with any theory, even the theory of the dharma, which to me is the highest, most awesome thing the world, then we’re going to be trapped by it.

But if we walk in with a kind of willingness to feel, then our path becomes the highest vibration, I would say. And we’re able to modify, along the path, in relationship to reality, as opposed to ideas about reality because we’re experiencing our life. And again, I think what you’re pointing to is really accurate is that it doesn’t feel good to feel afraid. It’s limiting and it is dark and awful. Definitely. Nobody should want—you don’t want to force yourself to hang out there. It sucks. But if it’s something that’s happening, it’s happening. So you lean into it in some way, and then watch it. It will start to transform.

Fear is unavoidable. We live in a world where there are things to be afraid of, and we’re vulnerable creatures. So because we’re vulnerable, we’re going to experience fear, because we’re not invulnerable. So that’s just part of life, so we have to find a way to work with it. But fear of fear is optional. That doesn’t have to be a part of life. That is actually the worst fear, I would say.

Fear tends to stiffen us up and shrink the space and make us feel tiny and just very claustrophobic and uncomfortable. But if you look at what’s underneath fear, just what is right underneath fear, you may find something interesting, because it’s usually some expression of vulnerability. Our vulnerability is our most beautiful and powerful and creative quality. So right underneath the fear is an expression of our vulnerability, and often it feels like sadness. And sadness is very soft and workable. Fear, however, is not. So what happened just before the fear? Because that could be an interesting thing to feel and notice.

CP: When you say “vulnerability,” of course I feel an opening, and when you said that the sadness and the softness—I mean, there’s a lot of power in those. When we look at it from that way, meaning not power out there, going to impale. It’s not impaling power. But just a wisdom and almost a longing. And it just sort of dissolves the fear as I’m kind of sitting with it.

SP: That’s great. That was beautifully said. I’m so happy you used the word “longing,” because I really relate to that word. It’s so human. And we are often directed away from our longings as a form of dissatisfaction or indication of a problem, but they actually are really powerful and important at softening.

CP: You know, it’s interesting, if we look at what you were saying, that we modify our path in response to our reality, which, with this approach, I love, because it just speaks of a certain resiliency. Kind of like the aikido approach—something’s coming at you, and [you] just kind of work with it and move it.

SP: I think, honesty, that is a great definition of fearlessness, is that aikido approach to a fear situation. That is the ultimate, perhaps, expression of fearlessness, or a penultimate expression of fearlessness, because probably the ultimate expression would be complete enlightenment. So let’s say the penultimate expression would be meeting your world and working with things as they arrive. That is a beautiful form of confidence.

And when you think about it, if you need a sort of conceptual game plan before you meet your life, that is kind of cowardly.

CP: Say more, say more. This is hot now! You’re saying that if I’m setting goals—yes, say more about that. How is that cowardly?

SP: Well, if you think about what is the difference between faith and doubt—what is real faith? We live in a country where people talk about that question a lot. And I think the ultimate expression of faith is have no belief system but a completely open mind, and of course, a strong spiritual practice and a community and all the other supports that I think pretty much everyone needs.

But if you have this conceptual game plan, it always stems from the need for protection.

But when you agree to enter your world without protection but with intelligence—obviously we all have to be practical, we can’t walk in the middle of the road and so forth—but openheartedly, that is amazingly brave. And most systems of thought close our hearts to ourselves and to others.

And that’s why my work is called the Open Heart Project, because that’s how strongly I believe in the openhearted approach, which to me is the ultimate expression of bravery. And a closed heart is a kind of cowardice. Of course, I’m a coward. My heart’s closed all the time. But I try. I try to find when that’s happening and soften it.

CP: Now, you said this word, is it “penultimate”? Is that what you were saying?

SP: Yes.

CP: OK, that’s a fancy word.

SP: Well, ultimate is the ultimate, obviously, and penultimate is next to ultimate. In Buddhist thought, they often talk about the ultimate and the relative form of various qualities, or the absolute or the relative. So I didn’t want to—“absolute fearlessness” would be enlightenment, so I was just trying to make it a little more relative to our world, which I am firmly ensconced in.

CP: I hear that. I hear you’re firmly ensconced in it. I want to say like the “uber-ultimate,” but of course that is the ultimate, right? OK.

SP: [Laughs] Yes, there’s nothing after ultimate, that’s the problem.

CP: OK. So one of the things that I wanted to say, and then I want to get into that open heart, is that there’s a doing that’s required in the world. And when I say “required,” I’m not saying that we all have to make money and we all have to [be] busy, busy hamsters on the wheel. I just think that karmically, right now, the world is paying its dues, to put it nicely. I feel like there’s a huge imbalance and it needs to be righted if we’re going to continue to live on the planet. And I’m not saying this out of fear, although fear plays in for me, but we are, especially women, being called to action, to play more in the forefront. And while I love the whole aikido model of really being able to respond in a way that meets the fear, both in body and mind, I just wonder if there’s room for a more active role, where we’re using this consciousness but we’re taking it out into the world and we’re initiating action, rather than in that response mode.

SP: Well, I certainly hope so, because I agree with you 100 percent. The time for action is now. I think often people think if you’re a spiritual practitioner, you’re sort of gazing into space—

CP: [Laughs] Right!

SP:  —and not bathing or just sort of spacing out. And I find the deeper the spiritual practitioner, the less spaced-out that person is. The deeper their practice, the more present and engaged and capable of accomplishment they are.

So yes, we all should have an objective. And we all should know what that objective is. Sometimes it takes a long time to figure it out. And then we should go for it. But along the way, a process is required, and that process becomes the path to your aim. And if you don’t know how to be on a path, or can’t tolerate a path because you just want it to be done already, then you get further and further away from where you want to go. So yes, be aikido-like, but have as your objective to win the match. Aikido is a match, so you want to win. There’s no need to release that objective.

CP: Yes, I think the trick here is to make sure that that objective does not become that conceptual gam plan. And that’s tricky.

SP: Yes. So you’re constantly like—if your mind was a lens, you’re constantly zooming between close up and far out. I can’t remember what that’s called in a camera, but zoom and pan out. You’re constantly zooming and panning out, and often doing one when it should be the other, speaking for myself, anyway. Be a good strong camera operator, but don’t think that you can just set the lens and walk away, if you really pummel that metaphor.

You have objectives. You have wonderful objectives. And you are really out there accomplishing them. How do you—if you don’t mind if I ask you—balance the doing and the knowing what to do?

CP: It’s funny because I was just going to ask you that, how [it shows] up in your life. But I will do that in mine—since I feel like I’m with the teacher here. So for me, I feel that something is sort of living, coming through me, and I’m trying to yield to it and do my best to not get in its way. But at the same time, there are some real goals here, real realities about making this viable not just as a brand and a message, but actually something that works financially and supports not just myself but a team of people and a community of people that is growing and has [many] layers to it: authors and speakers and participants and entrepreneurs and executives and sponsors.

And so I find it very, very difficult to not be overtaken by what you’re calling the conceptual plan, because it’s tricky. You want to hold and begin with the end in mind, and that has been a spiritual teaching that I’ve used just because it feels very natural to me. But at the same time, I don’t want to be locked in, because maybe the opportunity is for me to learn failure. [Laughs] I mean, I’m just going to say it, but it’s hard for me to get behind that, truthfully. It’s hard for me to be OK with that.

SP: I understand! I relate. And I too want my hopes and dreams to work out spiritually, financially, creatively, everything-ly, the whole nine yards. And maybe it will, maybe it won’t, but I’m not going to stop trying. And maybe there [are] lessons in failure, I don’t know, but there’s joy in succeeding, too, and that’s also a lesson.

CP: Thank you for saying that, yes.

SP: It is completely wonderful to succeed. But you know, going back to the confidence thing, from the beginning of our conversation, I find that, especially with women, that when a success approaches, before it lands in your hand, you devalue it. You enjoy it for a half a second, then you’re like, “OK, anybody can do that. If I can do it, anyone can do it. OK, what’s the next thing I have to succeed at.”

CP: Oh, this is so true!

SP: I know! It’s crazy. So if we can learn how to enjoy our successes without devaluing them right away—also, you said something that I related to as well, which was something about [your] mission. I don’t think you used that word, but that’s the sense that I got. That’s how I know what to do, too.

I feel like my life has a life of its own and I don’t really know what it is exactly. I am more the shepherd than its captain, so to speak. So my life has a certain narrative structure, even, that when I look back, I see, but when I look ahead, I can’t. And I just want the story to be told. No one will ever know that story. I won’t even know the story. But the story, somehow, is the magic part, and I want that story to tell itself.

CP: Yes, that’s a nice way to put it. I love that whole story piece. Well, obviously, you’re a writer, you live in story. But it’s a really nice approach. I was going to try and ask this question before: where in your life—give us maybe one or two points where you were really emerging.

And, of course, we’re always emerging, but what I’m saying by “emerging”—and this is basically our audience, people [who] at any age are coming out of a deep transformation of some kind. Maybe it’s a transition in their life or a tragedy or just therapy and self-reflection. You get to this point where you’ve done enough practice on the inner that most of the healing is done, and when that happens, I find that women—and myself included—just feel on fire, and that’s the energy of emergence. And that’s happening on a cosmic level, but individually, [in] the stories of our lives, there are certain markers that stand out as being more significant emergences.

I’m just curious about you, since you’ve written a lot of books and you’ve done a lot of practice, and you alluded to your coaching practice, so I’m curious to see if you can share with us maybe one or two of those points in your life that you remember and how that story unfolded.

SP: That’s a great question. A fun question to think about, too. And I’ll just say the first thing that pops in my mind, and it’s—anyway, I’ll just tell it to you and I’ll tell you why that’s the moment. So I wrote a book about getting married, and it came out. I wasn’t a writer, I just had this idea and through a variety of weird circumstances, it became a book. I was working, I had my own business. I was a book packager, that’s what it was called back then. And a book was an interesting side line, a side note, but I didn’t ever think, “Well, I’ll be a writer.” I didn’t think anything about it. I was like, “Well, maybe people will like it!”

And then it got some media attention. And then it got a lot of media attention. I lived in New York City at the time, and I was at the cell phone store buying a new cell phone when my old cell phone rang and it was my publisher saying, “Next week, this Sunday, your book is going to No. 2 on the New York Times Best Seller list.” Of course, anybody would be happy with that. There [are] the obvious external reasons to be happy, like, “Oh, what a great marker of success. What a wonderful thing. That’s a turning point in my life professionally, financially, creatively, blah, blah, blah.”

But that’s not the emerging moment that first swept me off my feet. The emerging moment was all of these instances of self-doubt and fear and depression and darkness—things that I’ve experienced my whole life, even still. But in that moment, they all fell away, and I felt completely myself and totally empowered. And I spent some time thinking, “Well, why did you need such a conventional marker of success to feel empowered?” But I don’t care, that’s just the way it was. And there’s something about, I think especially for women, a coming out into the world and feeling, “Oh, I have found my place in the world and I’m not elbowing my way into it in this particular moment. It has opened to me.” That produced a tremendous amount of confidence in me, and that was a great moment.

I was in the store and I looked at the cell phone guy, and I was like, “My book’s going to be No. 2 on the New York Times Best Seller list!” [Laughs] I just said it to him, and he was like, “Oh, that’s really great!”

CP: [Laughs]

SP: I think he thought I was crazy, but anyway, I bought the cell phone and then I walked out into the street. I’ll never forget it, it was 23rd and 6th Avenue, and it was like a different world, a brighter world. It was a good moment.

CP: And that was about 10 years ago, or 12 years ago? Because I remember reading the book.

SP: Yes, it was about 10.

CP: So now, you really talked about that opening, and as you talk about that experience, I’m relating it to the Open Heart Project. Do you feel, through that work that you’re doing on your website, through the Open Heart Project, that we’re almost preparing ourselves for moments like that, by opening even through the difficult times? We’re kind of reaching for that state that you just described, in a way. I am! [Laughs] I want that!

SP: Yes. But the space that I just described is relational. In other words, it’s a road through a relationship with the world. And I think those are the most empowering moments, for me, anyway. They’re not so much things I feel within myself. I might call those things more like insights or evolutionary moments or whatever. But these moments that are a result of contact with the world are communications, and those communications, I think, create us.

You sort of come into being through relationships, not through self-reflection, I would say. The full you is not revealed to you or whoever until those relational moments occur. I’m not talking about love relationships or any particular kind of relationships, but it just is a very interesting topic to me right now. I think what I want to write about next is this notion of communication and relationship that calls us into being. Because we think, “Well, I’ll become myself and then I’ll go out and have relationships.” But it actually can work in the reverse. Relationships can tell you who you are. That might not sound very clear.

CP: No, it’s very clear.

SP: But I just want to point out that distinction.

CP: I mean, this is, I feel, the power of the feminine, and it’s happening on every level, that as people [who] are really leaning into the feminine are taking positions of leadership, we tend to be more relational in our style. Two things are happening: 1) we’re unfolding through that relationship, no matter how. There’s deep, intimate relationships with our partners and then there’s all different levels of that. And I feel like that’s the future of spirituality.

SP: I totally agree. I love that focus. People think being relational means being nice to people or something, or just not being rude. But that is so not it. That’s part of it, of course, but it’s about opening to connection, and we don’t know how that connection is going to feel. But there is no solid you or me. That being sort of shifts relationally. So that’s interesting, I think. It’s interesting that you could tell me a story and it would feel one way to tell it, and you could tell the same story in the same words to someone else and it would feel different. The relational space is everything.

CP: It’s everything.

SP: Everything. [Laughs]

CP: It’s everything! I love it! I’m so happy that you’re doing the work, and I really love this. Like I said, I do feel like this is the future of not only Buddhism, but it’s the future of all spirituality, becoming more relational and looking at our unfoldment not only and solely within ourselves, but even more so in reflection to the impact we have on others and others’ impact on us. There’s so much happening there. This is now. That’s all the focus. Even people in learning and development at big companies that are bringing in mindfulness—I love all that. I think that’s fabulous. But I think the focus on the relationship piece takes it to a whole other level.

SP: Yes. I completely agree. I totally agree.

CP: And I love that title, the Open Heard Project.

SP: It’s such a joy. That work has been such a delight. I had no idea what it would turn into, but it has been a wonderful thing to work on.

CP: Well, thank you, Susan, for your time and [for] sharing with us. I cannot believe that we spent this time and it flew by. Not surprised. And I look forward to sharing more time with you in Boston.

SP: That sounds great. It’s been lovely to talk with you. Thank you so much.

CP: Thank you! Take good care.

Christina Rasmussen is a bestselling author, speaker and philanthropist on a crusade to change the way we live after loss. As the founder of Second Firsts and Life Starters both organizations to help people create a pathway back to life after loss, Christina has helped thousands of people rebuild, reclaim, and re-launch their lives using the power of the human mind. Her book of the same name — Second Firsts: Live, Laugh, and Love Again— is helpful not just for loss, but for all periods of transition in our lives.

In today’s episode, Christina and I spoke about:

• The loss that she has experienced in her life and the new duality she learned about the grieving process
• The dangers of becoming comfortable in “The Waiting Room” after loss/transition and how to come out of it
• The difference between Transformational Lessons Learned Vs. Unwanted Mapping of brain patterns, and how to avoid the latter
• Can you experience transformation without grief or loss?
• Advice she has for those who are emerging out of challenging transitions

Tune in and listen to “Second Firsts: A Path to Deep and Lasting Joy” with the joyful and strong: Christina Rasmussen.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

And please be sure to rate us while you’re there!

Shasta Nelson is a life coach and CEO of GirlFriendCircles.com (the only online community that matches new friends offline by connecting women to other local women seeking friendship in 35 cities across the US). Shasta is the author of the book, Friendships Don’t Just Happen! The Guide to Creating a Meaningful Circle of GirlFriends. As a former preacher, she still brings her spirited and soulful voice to every presentation and anyplace else where people are seeking healthier and more meaningful relationships.

In today’s episode, Shasta and I spoke about:

• How friendship can change the world
• Friendships as another outlet for intimacy
• The indicators of a strong friendship
• The advantages and challenges with distance friendships
• Friendships in business

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript

Chantal Pierrat: Hello, and welcome, Shasta!

Shasta Nelson: Thank you so much! Happy to be here.

CP: I’m happy to have you. I’m just remembering the last time we were on a call. I think it was a couple of weeks ago. I felt like within five minutes that I was talking to somebody who was very soon going to become my best friend. I don’t know how you do it, but we just kept going. And even now, before the podcast, with our few minutes, I felt like I wanted to continue that conversation.

SN: Oh, I would love it!

CP: Yes, you just have a natural knack for friendship that I appreciate.

SN: Well, thank you. I think highly of you, too, because it takes two to connect and be present and show up.

CP: Right. Well, this is a subject that’s so important to me and near and dear to my heart. And when I was preparing for this, one of the things [I saw] on your website that really struck me was your tagline. It says, “I have a theory that friendship can save the world.” Maybe you can start and just tell us what you mean by that.

SN: Yes. I look around at—well, I come from a very religious background. I used to be a pastor. And in that world, we seek a lot of spiritual practices and going to church and reading the Bible. And then, of course, being here in San Francisco, it’s a lot more ashrams and yoga and so many different spiritual traditions that are just so rich and beautiful.

And one of the things I think about when I am every guiding anyone through anything or watching them do that is, “To what purpose are we doing that for?” In the Christian tradition, we always say that it is because we want to become more loving or more like God. In other traditions, we might use different words, but it’s really to become more enlightened and to become more at peace and to be more in love and to recognize our connections to each other.

And so when you are doing all these practices, it’s really for the purpose of engaging with each other and seeing each other and the value of each other, and recognizing the spark of God and the image of God in each other. So in my opinion, the friendships are where—that’s the gymnasium, that’s where we actually practice, that’s where we actually get to practice doing what we’re trying to become.

So for me, I challenge people. I don’t care if you’re praying all day; if it’s not making you a more loving person, I question what the point of that prayer is. And I question whether it’s working in your life. It’s really our friendships that we actually are—yes, I would call it the gymnasium. It’s the gymnasium for our soul. It’s the place where we get to practice forgiveness. It’s one thing to talk about it, [but] that’s where we get to practice doing it with people we’re in relationship with. That’s where I get to practice cheering for women. Even if I’m jealous of them and they have things I want, that’s where I get to practice compassion with the people who might make choices different than what I think is the right choice for them.

So it’s really in our friendships that we have the opportunity to practice being the people that this world needs. And when I look at politics and I look at the wars that we’re fighting around this world, we’re all very judgmental and we’re all very quick to say, “So-and-so’s doing it wrong,” and, “This politician, blah, blah, blah.”

And I think this is why we have to practice it with the people in our circles, so that if I can’t practice doing it with my friend down the street who parents differently than I do, or where we can get triggered—if I can’t do it with these women, then how in the world can I do it for people who live on the other side of the world, who think differently, who believe differently, who act differently? And how do I expect other people to be doing that if I can’t show up and be practicing that?

To me, this is what it all comes down to. It’s how we’re treating each other and who we’re becoming in the process. So yes, I think friendships are the training ground for becoming the people that we claim we want to be.

CP: Right. Well, here’s a question for you: don’t you think we chose our friends—and maybe this is what you’re trying to get out of, but I’m thinking, “I don’t want to be friends with someone if they’re not on the same page,” or, “I don’t want to be friends with someone if they don’t see things the way I see [them] or if they don’t live their life in the way that I’m living my life.” Is that a pattern that you’re trying to break through these circles and connecting people? Do you advise against that, in a way?

SN: That’s a great question, and actually, I teach that there’s five different levels of friendship, five different circles of friendship. So for me, it’s recognizing that each of those levels requires a different level of vulnerability and showing up and being present. In my opinion, we can be friendly to everybody, and the more casual the relationship, the more we get to practice loving people who are very different from us, who are in a very different place than we are.

And as we start building a mutual relationship, certainly the people that you’re revealing your heart at—who are what I would call far right on the continuum, from far left to far right, far right is the most intimate and consistent relationship. Certainly, on the far right, we need people that we have proven mutual love and maturity with. But even there, I would say I’m finding a pattern of a lot of women walking away from relationships when they’re annoyed or when somebody does things differently or when we get our feelings hurt.

We know from relationship patterns and behaviors and growth stages of relationships, actually going through some conflict is really more intimate and more bonding for a relationship. We know that from our marriages. If we walked away from our marriages as quickly—or even a dating relationship, we won’t even say marriage. But we are much more willing to fight it out, much more willing to show up and be honest there. We’re much more willing to say, “Hey, you know, this is not working for me.”

In our relationships, when we’re dating, we will put up with quite a bit, but I’ve never heard, really, a situation where they just drift apart or break up and neither person really heard from the other person or anything like that. But we do that with our girlfriends all the time. We just let it get awkward and we just start pulling away, and I think there’s a missed moment there for some growth and for an opportunity to ask for what we need and to speak our power [more clearly] and our offering and our contribution.

So it’s a mix. I’m not advocating that people should have unhealthy people around them at all, but I am advocating that I think part of mature relationships—and most women are not building the level of deep relationships they say they want. And one of the reasons that’s happening is because we’re not saying with people long enough and being intimate long enough to actually get to that place where we crave having. We want those close, meaningful relationships, but we don’t want them to be awkward at all at any time, and they will be.

CP: I just think of what’s happened, this whole nuclear family concept—which has always been a myth outside of our culture—but what that’s done to isolate us. I know this is happening with men, too, but especially with women, you’re in your marriage and you feel like, “OK, that’s where I’m putting all my work.” And yet, there’s so much juice to be had through friendships, but there’s sort of this rewiring we have to do.

Because the friendships are the ones that are, “Oh, well, no, I’m not going to take anything. I’m walking away.” I think you’re right in that there’s a trend of just really giving up so easily because we don’t give it the same credence as we do the marriage. Where are you going to go in the marriage? The only place is divorce. So that’s a higher hurdle than just simply not returning a phone call with a friend.

And I think what you’re introducing is a shift around looking at friendships as another outlet for intimacy and not just keeping intimacy in the marriage. And I’m wondering—I know you have a term for this. I’m going to let you introduce it, I can’t pronounce it, “friendimacy.” Tell me about that.

SN: Yes, “friendimacy” is a combination of “friendship” and “intimacy,” and I use that word because every time I talk about intimacy, people’s brains immediately went to sexual intimacy. And we really don’t use the word very often, so I was like, “OK, we’ve got to find a new way of saying this.” Because intimacy is not just physical intimacy. There’s a showing up. I describe intimacy as a vulnerability, or a revealing, or a willingness to show up with less and less [of a] filter with somebody.

So it’s a level a trust that we’re building, and really, as humans, I believe that’s what we’re craving. I believe that’s what we ultimately want. We want to feel like somebody’s looking at us, knows us, and says, “You’re enough.” That’s what all of us are—if you go back, almost all of our core, fundamental fears [are about] the feeling of we’re not being enough and we do various things to try to prove that we are.

But in my opinion, that level of intimacy takes a lot of time. A statistic that’s of interest is that half of our close friends—we’re losing half of our close friends every seven years. And when I say that upfront when I’m speaking, at first you can see the look of dubiousness in everyone’s eyes, like, “I don’t think that’s true.” And I say, “Think about if you were getting married today”—because that’s one of the events where we pull a close group of friends around us, we call them bridesmaids—“think about who you would pick, if you were picking five or six women to be your bridesmaids today, who would be those women? And would they be different if you had done that seven years ago?”

And when I say that, you suddenly see this look in everyone’s eyes, like, “Oh my goodness, I didn’t even know two or three of the people that I would invite right now in my life seven years ago.” And chances are just as high that seven years from now, if you were to invite five or six women to stand up with you, you may not yet know one or two of them even now, or they may not be your close friends.

So we have a shifting going on, and I think that’s normal, and I think that’s healthy. I’m a big fan of recognizing that not every friendship needs to last forever. In fact, only one in twelve of our friends really do go through life with us. So I’m a big fan of not feeling guilty if your friendship’s not lasting forever.

And with that said, being intentional about hanging on to the friends that we want to hang on to and going through some of that conflict [is important] to make sure we build that intimacy. Because that takes time, and if we’re moving every couple of years, if we’re changing jobs every couple of years, if our relationships revolve around our kids’ lives and they’re switching schools and switching activities every couple of years, you can start seeing where you would have a big network now and a lot of people but still feel incredibly lonely and not have the intimacy and the support system in place that you crave.

So it’s a big issue to really look at and say, “I need to know that I have some friends who get me where I’m at right now, but I also need some friends whose lives don’t have to mirror mine. We’re going to keep journeying through life and be close and vulnerable and show up with each other.”

CP: Yes. I love that concept, because the owner and the founder of—no longer the owner of—Zappos is this guy Tony Shay, and in his book he talks about, really, for your business, you want to go for advice on your business or you want to learn more about your business, it’s really smart to go outside your industry. Because the diversity and the creativity that you can apply from a different industry into your own often yields better results. It’s just a way of thinking outside the box.

So having friends that are not exactly a mirror image of who we are, I can see how that can 1) put us out of our comfort zone, but 2) be beneficial in that it would challenge us in different ways. I mean, I have so many friends that are so loyal to me that would never call me on anything because they just love me so much. And I don’t know if that’s always such a good think. Of course, it’s great. [Laughs]

SN: [Laughs] There’s always that tricky line. I love what you’re saying, because research actually shows that we are not very good predictors of who we’re going to bond with, and I think this is fascinating. There are many studies of us thinking that, “OK, if I’m Republican, if I’m Democrat, I probably need somebody who’s got the same world view. That is so important, we have to have similar values. If I’m a mom, just convenience-wise, I need someone else who gets it.” And we kind of think that we know who we will bond with.

And the research shows that we actually really don’t bond any more with somebody who has the same religion or political background that we do. It is no more of a predictor of whether we will bond than if we both found out we grew up in Illinois, or we both found out we like Madonna, or—the research actually says—if we just both found out we like broccoli. That is as powerful a predictor of our bond as both of us being moms or both of us being single or both of us being moms with special needs kids.

So we think about what we walk around thinking we need, and we’re pretty quick to dismiss other women because we will sit there and be like, “Oh, she dresses like that, she’s probably that income bracket, or cares about fashion differently than I do, or she’s a mom.” We quickly are like, “Oh, we have nothing in common.”

And the truth of the matter is those are three or four very superficial things that we’re looking at, and those are no more of a predictor—they say that actually, and this is funny for you and I with more unusual names, they say it would be the same if you’re walking around saying, “I really can only be friends with other moms or other single girls” or whatever you feel like you are, they say that would be the same as walking around saying, “I really can only be friends with people who have my name.” And I think about that. I think some of us would be some very lonely people in the world if that was one of our beliefs. [Laughs] It would be me with like a thousand dogs! [Laughs]

So we create this story of who we think we need to create a bond with, but every single one of us has evidence in our brain—it’s one of the exercises I have women do in workshops, [to] name somebody in your life who you actually bonded with who’s actually very different from you. And it’s usually somebody that you worked with, because if you just met them, you probably would have not given them the chance to know them, but you worked with them, so you saw them every day and you became very close friends.

She could be 20 years older than you, she could have five more kids than you, she could be completely different from you and yet you became good friends. Or it’s somebody who you’re related to. Or it’s somebody—it’s usually somebody that you were forced to have enough time with that you came to love each other, but it wouldn’t have been at your own choosing or your own guess that that would have happened. And we all have the evidence of that, that with time and proximity, we bond with far more people than we walk around thinking we do.

CP: Are there any indicators of a good match? And we’re going to get into your website and all of that, but I’m just curious to see, if it’s not interests or things [like that], is there chemistry?

SN: It is. What we do need to find is—and thanks for clarifying that. What we do want is we want to have things in common with each other, but they’re finding that it’s the quantity of things, not the quality of those things. So three small things—[like] both having unusual names, both being interested in women’s organizations, and you live in Colorado and I used to live in Colorado. Those three things will be as powerful a bonding as if we had one big thing in common, if we both had the same political or religious background.

So it’s not to say those other things aren’t important, but they just need to be a part of the—you know, it’s adding up, and that takes a little bit more time to find out those things than simply walking up and asking the typical questions of, “How many kids to you have? What job to you have?” and the same three or four questions you typically ask.

So giving ourselves a little more time to build those relationships, and then having progressed through those five stages is what we’re hoping to do. Having more people in the funnel initially and trusting that a few of them will develop into and create those intimate “friendimate” relationships that we want.

CP: “Friendimate,” OK. Now I’ve got you. What you talk a little bit about—you know, there’s a culture of loneliness, especially among women. Can you say more about that, what you’ve seen and what has given rise to your friendship circles and the book, Friendships Don’t Just Happen?

SN: Yes, I do, and I have a keynote [where] I actually talk about—I call it a surprising epidemic among today’s social, busy, popular women. It is, there’s a loneliness. I feel like it’s permeating our culture. I have yet to stand in front of an audience where, if I talk about loneliness, most women will be like, “No, no,” and we don’t use the word ourselves. But as soon as I define it, I can look out and I just see hundreds of eyes, it just suddenly hits their heart.

We are in fact a very lonely—we want more relationships. We want more connection. We want the deep, easy, meaningful stuff. We don’t want to just know more people. We actually really want those close, easy, be-with-me, let’s-journey-life-together friendships. And there’s a lot of loneliness.

So I think one of the damaging things is that there’s so much stigma around loneliness. We have a shame, almost, that admit it might be somehow misunderstood as saying, “Nobody likes me, or I have no friends, or I’m a complete loser.” We don’t admit we’re lonely very often. We’ll admit we need to lose weight, we’ll admit we are looking and want to date somebody and get married, we’ll admit we want more money. We’ll admit a lot all at once, in a lot of areas of life that we really don’t post on Facebook, or [we] admit we’re lonely and looking for friends with a huge shame around it.

So one of my callings is to help us not have a shame around it, and in fact, the opposite. I treat that as information in our bodies that, when we feel that little trigger in our bodies that just feels like that loneliness, and help women identify what that loneliness feeling is. It’s actually really valuable information for us. It’s the same as when my body tells me that I’m tired when I yawn or that I’m thirsty or that I’m hungry. We don’t want to ignore that. We don’t want to feel shame over that. We don’t want to be mad at our bodies, like, “How dare you be tired again! I just slept you yesterday!”

The point of our bodies is they need sleep, they need food, they need water, and they need connection. And when we have that information come up, we don’t want to deny it or push it down or anything. We actually want to go, “Oh, interesting. I’m craving more connection. My heart wants to be more connected to people. Wow, let me look at my life. It’s crazy because I have so many people I know,” and we’d want to look and say, “That’s interesting. What kind of connection am I craving? Could something in me want [to relate] more with somebody?”

So I think it’s a really powerful thing. Because we live in a world where it can be harder to diagnose because we’re so connected and we’re so busy and we’re so exhausted that when we think about scheduling one more date with a friend, we get stressed out over it. So we actually feel like we don’t want more of that, but we actually do want more relating and more sharing. So it’s really important to recognize a difference between those two and respond to that information.

CP: So let’s switch over to your GirlFriendCircles. It’s like a Match.com. When I was on it, I was just astonished that you’re actually matchmaking girlfriends.

SN: Yes, yes. I came up with that a couple years ago when I just realized it’s actually easier, ironically, to date than it is to make friends sometimes. Because with dating, we have a lot of protocol around it. We have an acceptance around getting asked out and getting phone numbers, that process. But when it comes to making friends, it’s actually very challenging because we can’t just walk up to a girl in a grocery store and be like, “You look fabulous. You look like fun. Let’s go have coffee.” We can’t really hit on each other appropriately.

CP: [Laughs]

SN: So, yes, it’s a website to help us, like, “Everyone in the city who’s open to new friends, raise your hand! Let’s get together. Let’s connect. Let’s find each other.” So it’s an attempt to help match women in small groups for sharing and getting to know each other.

CP: And how many people do you have plugged into the system, and what is the typical profile?

SN: Great question. I think we’re at 32,000 members right now across the country and into some of the cities in Canada. And the typical profile is—our most common user is women in their 30s and 40s who value friends and have moved away from their college friends. In our 20s, we still have a little bit more of that in our lives. But we have women—you can join if you’re over the age of 21, and our fastest-growing population right now is over the age of 55 and 60. I think we’re seeing a huge hunger [in] women whose kids have moved out of the house and they’re ready for, “Wow, my whole social portal doesn’t have to revolve around the kids and who their friends are,” and are going through a late divorce.

A lot of women are now retiring and are moving to be closer to their children and their grandchildren, yet they don’t have any friends there. It just goes to show [how] replacing your friends every seven years happens all through life, even when you’re in your 60s and 70s. We have so many women who are still, [in their] 70s and 80s, dealing with that same hunger and wanting to build more friendships.

Profile-wise, it’s women who are internet-savvy. They obviously have enough courage to say, “I’m going to try something new.” Every woman I’ve met, through all my events, I’m just kind of awed at how amazing and beautiful and confident and just really fabulous women [are who] join. I think [you have to be a little] gutsy to do something like that, and it shows in the women who are willing to show up. They all have had friends before, so they value it, they know it, they’re willing to do something about it.

CP: OK, and then you have circles. So here’s my question: what’s the difference and the advantages of both, between finding a match on an individual basis and actually meeting in a circle of women?

SN: What’s the difference between—

CP: Well, as far as the intimacy, the friendship. They’re sort of one-on-one, right? If I go on, I can get one person I’m in contact with, but then there’s also the opportunity for the circles, where there’s multiple women.

SN: So I think anytime you can meet in a small group of women, I think that’s usually a great way to go, because then there’s no pressure on anybody for holding up the conversation, or if it’s not an instant chemistry, it kind of allows for different personalities.

I look back on the Sex and the City foursome, and I think if any two of them had gone out on a date to meet each other, the chances of the [sex-crazed]—what was her name, Samantha—and really preppy Charlotte—the chances of those two sitting down for coffee and being like, “We are going to be best friends,” probably would have never happened. There’s something so dynamic that allows us to take a breath and be like, “OK, I don’t need every single person around this circle to be my twin or my best friend to still get [the] value of being part of a community and in a group.” So I’m a big fan of circles of women. I’m a big fan of groups. And I’m a huge fan of the one-on-one. I think those are just offer such different experiences.

In this day and age, if I need to be close to a handful of women, I don’t have time to do one on Monday night, one on Tuesday night, one on Wednesday night, one on Thursday night. And I don’t want to just spread them out, only seeing them once a month, because I want the intimacy. I don’t want to just be updating on how the last month went. For me, one of my high values, is meeting in small groups. I have three or four of my closest friends come over every Tuesday night and we have girls’ night. That’s not to say I don’t get together one-on-one with them, and I have a bunch of other friends that I do one-on-one stuff with. But to me, to be able to connect and share and be intimate at to give the value of several different people’s input all at one time—I think I’m a big fan of circles of women.

CP: Yes. I know, we talked about this, right? Our husbands are going to kill us if we join one more women’s circle, right? [Laughs]

SN: [Laughs] Exactly. It’s like, “How many do you need?” “Well, do you really want me to answer that question?”

CP: I know. He’s like, “Babe, I thought this was just once every two weeks. It seems to be more than that.” I’m like, “That’s a different group!”

SN: [Laughs] OK, research [tells] us good things. You were talking earlier about the difference between friends and husbands and children. I would say all healthy relationships serve us and give us the benefit of relationship. I could just go on and on about the health benefits of relationships. But the interesting thing about friendship over husbands and spouses and children is that those relationships actually have higher highs, but they also have lower lows. Those are the people we fight with, those are the people we’re scheduling doctor’s appointments with, we’re stressed, we’re worried about them, we lay awake wondering if they’re doing OK at school. Those are the relationships that actually have a lot of stress that comes with the benefits.

Our friendships will certainly have some moments of stress and awkwardness, but we are not scheduling their appointments, we’re not worried about their day at work tomorrow. So we are getting the benefit of the relationship, of feeling supported, of the oxytocin of the sharing, of the being seen, of having our lives witnessed. We’re getting the benefits without as much stress. So those friendships serve a relationship gap, and they give to us in ways that our family relationships often can’t do and help be a buffer for that stress.

So it’s a good thing for those of us who are trying to be out there with those female relationships. They actually really help our marriages and our ability to show up [as a mom]. I say do another circle, Chantal. [Laughs]

CP: You know, right? Slip one more in. I tell my kids I have one circle, and it’s actually—this is not the focus, but I’m like, “It helps me be a better mommy.” So now they call it the “be a better mommy circle.” [Laughs] Only two people are moms in this particular circle, but it’s funny. But it’s true.

SN: And, I’ll tell you, I used to do this workshop where I used to interview or ask women through a journal assignment of writing down the memories of their moms with female friends. “What memory do you have of your mom and her friendships? Did she go away for weekends? Did she go out for girls’ night? Did she talk on the phone in the evenings?” And I would guess that 70, 75 percent of all those workshops I taught, 75 percent of the women raised their hand and had a really hard time coming up with memories of their moms having friends.

And I just thought, at first, “That’s crazy! Surely 70 percent of your moms had friends. I can’t believe they just all didn’t have friends.” And my guess is that most of them tried to do their friendship while their kids were at school or something, and so the kids just didn’t see it. I think that’s a good intention, but isn’t it ironic that on the back end of it, their kids never saw them modeling a friendship. They don’t have memories of it, so now they—I’m working with the adult women now who feel guilty going on a girls’ weekend, taking the time out. And I think to myself, “Wow, I wish more moms could say what you’re saying. ‘You played with your friends at school today, now mommy has to go out and play with her friends.’”

It’s important to play with friends, you know? We’re allowing one night of not doing homework and bedtime each week, [which] could actually help be modeling something else really valuable to your kids. So I’m a big fan of what you’re doing. I know it’s hard to do, and hard to walk away from kids that want you and where you know what needs to be done, but I think it’s powerful modeling. There [will] be more kids, more women that will be in this world—and men who will be in this world—not feeling awkward or uncomfortable or guilty about having friends in their lives. So it’s super important.

CP: Super good point. Love that. When you’re in circles of women, it’s so easy to just get down to the fashion and the lipstick—and all these are very important, by the way, very important. You’ve got to cover it all, from lipstick to God. But how do you control that so that’s there’s a little bit more intention in the gathering?

SN: I love that. To me, I’m somebody [who], to me, if the conversation doesn’t feel meaningful, it’s not fulfilling to me. So that’s a really high value to me. One of my favorite things to do is, if I’m in a small group of at least three people, I’ll always say, “Hey, let’s just go around the circle and each share something that’s going on in our lives right now that matters, or something that’s coming up that we’re excited about.” So if it’s easy to do something like that, I have found that by giving each person allotted time—not like with a timer or anything like that, but just simply an evening where we can all sit there and talk, you’ll trigger something. You’ll trigger something I’m going to say, I’ll trigger something—we could keep talking for hours without ever actually stopping and saying, “What it is that I actually want to share?”

So even when I’m one-on-one with my friends—and it’s actually super easy for me, everyone’s trained in my life—but I always ask, “Hey, I want to hear one of the highlights in your life and one of the lowlights in your life right now. One thing you’re proud of, one thing you’re celebrating, one thing that’s stressing you out, one thing that’s causing you worry or angst.” So everyone in my life—I hardly go out with anybody or have people over without somebody at some point being like, “All right, let’s do our high/low!”

For me, if we’re going to connect and relate, I want to hear about something that’s mattering in your life right now. And I want to hear the things I can celebrate with you, and I want to hear the things I can support you around. And I think those are important, and I don’t want to be a part of a conversation where it’s all one without the other. To me, that’s important. But if that’s too structured or feels too weird for people, I’m always just saying, “Hey, it’s super easy to say, ‘Hey, before we go, let’s just each go around and share one thing that matters to us right now or one thing coming up that we can think of each other when they’re doing it,’ or something.”

I think that’s one of the easiest, most important things we can do to start taking relationships a little bit deeper. It helps invite that space for each of us to go around the circle and share. I feel like the introverts, it’s hard for them to interrupt conversations. The extroverts, we are just so entertaining, we can talk the whole time. I think it’s really important to give each person space, where we are saying, “You share with us what you think is important in your life right now, what you want us to know about you.”

CP: OK. God, I have so many questions around here, but I know we’re getting close on time. But I want to ask this one thing, because I think in our more fragment, traveling-oriented society—especially with women, there’s a lot more traveling for business that’s happening, and people moving away from original friends, that seven-year cycle, starting new lives—and I’m curious, what do you do when you have a really, really good friend and yet distance—you just don’t have the time together? When you’re [talking] on the phone, one may be more comfortable with that than another—how do you handle that? Do you just let it slip away, or do you—sometimes when you’re such good friends with somebody, it’s actually awkward to be open and talk about the relationship. And I don’t know if that’s required, or is it just a normal cycling, or you just kind of let it go or do you fight for it? What do you do?

SN: It’s great attention that you are even seeing this and observing this. So I have five circles of friends, and on the left is the most casual. Those are the relationships that we might see regularly but there’s not as much intimacy there. And on the far right are the people who are the most intimate and [we’re] the most consistent with. And the middle circle are the friends that I call the “confirmed circle.” They used to be the people who were on the far right side. They used to be our best friends, our committed friends, but because of a move—most often that’s the reason—we no longer have the consistency with them to warrant them being on the far-right side anymore, but we’re too intimate with them to have them be on the left side.

So they’re in the middle, holding our heart. They’re the people we can pick up with wherever we left off and the people we are not talking to very often. And you have a very conscious choice in that moment. For most of the women who will be in that circle, we will have to cut back our consistency with them because you need close, local, intimate relationships that are present and near you. You do need local friends. You simply can’t move away and stay in touch with the five people you were close to in your previous city and still have the time and energy to be making new friends.

You can’t stay in touch with everybody you’ve ever known, so the vast majority of them will go to that middle circle. And being in touch with them once or twice or three times year or for a weekend trip together is super meaningful, and those are people we still want to keep those relationships alive [with], just with less consistency because there’s so much intimacy there.

A few people, though, are people I think we should choose to say, “Hey, what does it take for us to remain on the far-right side together? You’re somebody that I don’t want to put in the middle circle. I want to make sure we keep this relationship.” So one of my closest girlfriends was in Texas, and actually, it helped because when I moved to San Francisco and didn’t really know anybody—we can often go through this huge gap where we just feel totally alone, and that’s a great time to ask one of our friends who lives somewhere else, “Hey, can we talk on the phone once a week?” to just help make sure we have that intimacy in our lives, even when we don’t know very many people.

She and I talk every Wednesday at 12:00, and we have for years. So even though distance prevents us from seeing each other, she’s actually one of my very closest friends, and [even though it’s] not as intimate as [it] would but, [it is] that constant that she is there for me, and we actually are sharing. But that does take a level of intention that does not happen without scheduling, and I have found for me that the more things that I can put as a routine in my life, the easier it is for me to just step into the benefit of that relationship without the stress of that relationship.

Because the stress comes from the scheduling, the logistics, the back and forth, the trying to catch each other, the emailing, “She reached out to me last time and it’s my turn,” the guilt of, “Oh my gosh, it’s been months since I called her.” So for me, that’s the stuff I want to avoid, and I want to be enjoying the benefit of the friendship. For me, saying, “Let’s talk the first Friday of every month,” or, “Let’s talk every other Wednesday at noon,” or, “Hey, email’s going to be enough for me.”

I don’t think it needs to be awkward. I think it’s saying to somebody, “You matter enough to me. I don’t want to lose touch with you. I want to stay close to you, but I think we’re going to have to schedule it in to make that work and keep it so we’re not having to try to catch each other on the fly here and there.” So I think it’s a really beautiful question, and offer an invitation to say to somebody you love and you want to keep in your life.

CP: Right, right. Well, that’s great. OK, so, now Emerging Women, this organization is really about bringing intimacy and relationship and other feminine qualities into positions of leadership, and maybe changing—hopefully changing, definitely going to change, let me reframe that—the way leadership is being played out right now in all different sectors. And so I’m curious, because I definitely feel that relationship, and, to some degree, intimacy, is going to help on the business side as well as on the friendship side.

Do you see that a lot? It used to be, “Oh, you can’t be friends with someone that you’re doing business with.” Or, “Don’t ever go into business with someone that you’re friends with.” And yet, those lines, especially as women are becoming more and more engaged at a leadership level, are, in my experience, becoming more and more blurred as we get more into a relationship-based leadership and business style. Is there muddy waters there that we need to be aware of? Just generally, what do you think about that?

SN: Yes, great question. I have an entire workshop I do on this for companies, because I think, A) we want to have friends at work. I’m a big fan—that is still the #1 place that we are spending all of our time, and that makes it the easiest place for us to be consistent with somebody and have friendships grow. And we’re happier at work if we have friends. We will stay longer, we will not go to other jobs, often, if we feel like we have good friends in one place. We’re willing to be there for that. So it’s a really strong thing for a company to have those kinds of friendships.

With that said, I do think it needs to be—there are certainly parameters and good guidelines for helping know how to develop a relationship with a little bit more thoughtfulness. I’m a big fan of being—I have what I call a “friendimacy triangle,” which is a triangle that helps show vulnerability and how levels of vulnerability [are] appropriate in all relationships. You should never be meeting somebody and just pouring your heart out to them. I call that the “emotional prostitute,” or “one night stand,” something like that.

We are building relationships with commitment and vulnerability. And in a work place, I really stress that, because it is important that we are building that carefully and slowly and intentionally. And yes, you’re right, I do think the blinds do have to come together. And I think our lives, our world, will benefit from knowing what healthy friendships looks like and knowing how to work together. That might involve us seeing more conversations, and it definitely invites us to these more awkward moments.

But I am a big fan of awkward moments. I’m always saying to people, “Don’t avoid awkward! Just because it’s awkward doesn’t mean it’s bad. ‘Awkward’ means there’s opportunity for something there. It’s always awkward before you meet somebody. When you go walk into a café for a connecting circle with GirlFriendCircle and you don’t know the other women, of course it’s awkward. Why would it not be? You’ve never met them. But that doesn’t mean you have to lean away from it. Of course it’s awkward to do business with a friend, because there’s going to be times when you get mad at each other. There’s going to be times when you’re going to do it differently and expect the other person to do something the way you do it.

Of course it’s going to be awkward. But awkward is good, as long as you’re willing to say, “OK, it’s awkward, and what conversation do I need to have now to help bring more clarity and more intimacy and more safety to this relationship?” So there will be awkwardness, and I think that’s where women especially—we have so much room for growth in speaking for what we need and articulating what we need. I work with a lot of women who I don’t even think stop and say, “What is it I need from this? What do I actually need if I’m going to go on with that?” What we need, we need to learn to ask for it with kindness and with clarity and with confidence.

So [this is] another part where friendship is important, because our [in] our friendships, we can practice these things. It’s [with] my friends where I can practice asking for what I need so that when I’m in a work environment with new friends, I’m much better, I’m practiced at asking for what I need with people who’ve already loved me well, so it helps me be able to do it better.

That’s why I say friendships can save the world, because I get to practice shining around people who are happy for me and cheering for me to shine. So it makes it easier for me to stand up in an environment where I need to shine and give my best contribution and do my thing and stand in my power, even if I’m not being cheered for at that moment. That’s where we have to practice these awkward conversations. Sorry, that’s kind of a long, rambling answer, but yes, we need friends at work, and yes, we need to have more conversations around that. [Laughs]

CP: Right, yes. It’s so important right now, especially as we’re going to be emphasizing, more and more, vulnerability and friendships and connections and intimacy, even within the workplace. I think this is all being created right now, so the work you’re doing is very important to identify where the boundaries are and what’s permissible and what’s encouraged and, “Hey, that’s too far.” I think people, especially men as they’re learning this, there’s going to have to be some kind of—I don’t know if it’s workshops or some kind of education around what’s actually appropriate and what’s beneficial.

SN: Great conversations and guidelines and visuals and stuff like that. It’s an interesting thing because I think friends outside of work, we’re getting much, much, much more comfortable bringing business into our friendships. But with the workplace, there still aren’t—I don’t feel a lot of open doors with the company saying, “Oh, yes, friendship, we really need to talk about that in this place.” It’s happening, obviously friendships are happening there, but it’s nothing something that’s being really discussed or done with a way of, “Let’s make sure we get the benefits of friendship in as many ways as we can with as little of the awkwardness and the boundaries as possible,” you know, the over-stepped boundaries.

So I think you’re right. I think we’re ripe for saying we can’t parcel out our lives and compartmentalize. We’re all showing up wanting to make our contribution, and we’re going to do it with people we know. So those two things are going to be all over each other.

CP: Yes. I wanted to end with—and I know you must have a gazillion best friends—

SN: I don’t. [Laughs]

CP: You don’t? OK, so I’m curious to see how many best friends you have, and pick one and tell us something about her.

SN: Oh, that’s so beautiful. And I said I don’t because a best friend requires consistency and intimacy, and I don’t think—you have to limit who you do that with. I would be lonely if I tried to give [equally] to everybody. So for me, I’m very clear that I have three or four women that get priority in my life.

And one of them is Daneen, and one of the things I love about her is our lives are very different. She’s a mother, I’m not. We are both doing very different contributions in this world and we do it very differently. And we’ve had some awkward moments. There were times where she’s wanted more from me, like I could sense that I wasn’t offering to be with her child as much as she wanted. So there’s moments of awkward again, and one of the things that I love is we had so many beautiful conversations, probably several years ago, but it helped bond us as being able to say, “Hey, I feel a little bit of something, like I’m disappointed in our relationship. Can we talk about it? What are your expectations? Can I talk about what I can do and what I can’t do?”

We had so many conversations that started with awkwardness, and in those moments, I realized how easy it would be to have relationships drift away, because I could just sit there and be like, “Oh my goodness, she’s expecting too much, her life is so different. I can’t be this and she’s not living up to what I want anymore.” It’d be so easy to pull away and move on and drift apart, but those conversations, I’m telling you, now we are reaping the benefits of just trusting each other completely and just having complete honesty and where we can sit there and say, “Give me honest feedback.”

And I just know she adores me and loves me, and I love her and adore her. Yes, it feels so good to have somebody who’s local, who’s intimate, who’s a champion of mine and I’m a champion of hers. We’re both doing our thing in this world, and we both get criticism, with both get celebrated, and we both get to be there and know that we’ve got somebody who knows us on the backend that [knows] we’re not as amazing as our image and our PR bios. But we’re not as horrible as the critics out there who call us whatever. So it’s beautiful to have those kinds of people in our lives.

CP: Fabulous. That’s wonderful. Well, thank you for sharing, Shasta. It’s been a pleasure.

SN: You’re welcome! Your questions are so beautiful! I’ve done so many of these, and I mean it when I say you have very insightful questions. I loved them, it was very fun.

CP: Oh, you’re sweet. Well, to me, I started Emerging Women based on my women’s circle. So this, like I said when we first started, within five minutes I was like, “Oh, kindred spirit!” So I feel like this topic is super important. And it’s also a topic that people—I don’t know if it’s because of the shame, but they just make it seem unimportant, or it doesn’t rank as high as financial and marriage and all the other sectors of our lives that we do tend to plant seeds and grow and tend. Thank you for doing this.

SN: I agree 100 percent. You are welcome, thanks for helping give a platform for it, because I agree, it’s not something that we—my publisher told me, “Women will go buy books on romantic relationships, they’ll buy any one that promises that it will help them find romance, and they’ll buy every book on parenting when they’re pregnant. But they will not walk in bookstores and buy books on friendship.” And I just thought, “Why is that?” We just don’t—you’re right, it’s not an area of life that we treat with the respect that research is actually showing helps significantly.

CP: Right. There’s a high value here!

SN: Yes! So thank you for inviting me to visit

CP: High value!

SN: It means a lot. [Laughs]

CP: OK, well, thank you Shasta, and more to come! I’m looking forward to you being at the Seattle Power Party, that’s going to be a blast.

SN: Yay! I can’t wait to meet you and to continue our friendship.

CP: Perfect.

Subscribe to Grace & Fire on iTunes.

[ew-audio-download headline=”Free Audio Download” subheadline=”Power Practices, Vol. 1 Women Who Are Changing the World”]

Rha is a cultural innovator and social entrepreneur who brings over two decades of transformational “crowd rockin’” in the name of social change. As a world renowned performing artist and activist, her work has been internationally featured in several compilations, anthologies, forums and festivals. In her 30+ year tenure as a creative organizer Rha has shaped the face of racial justice and equality, electoral politics, offender aid and restoration, mental health and youth and young women’s empowerment. Rha Goddess was a featured presenter at the fantastic Emerging Women May 2014 Power Party in New York, NY.

In today’s episode, Rha and I spoke about:

• Her work with Move The Crowd and how she is creating a league of extraordinary creative entrepreneurs
• What she means by culture, and how our culture is shifting to a more collective, creative and diverse expression
• Working with the ‘Global Diaspora’ 
• Limiting beliefs common among entrepreneurs and her 6 steps for working with them
• And finally, her sage advice for the Emerging Women everywhere

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript

Chantal Pierrat: You’re listening to Grace and Fire, brought to you by Emerging Women. Today my guest is Rha Goddess. Rha is a cultural innovator and social entrepreneur who brings over two decades of transformational “crowd rockin’” in the name of social change. As a world-renowned performing artist and activist, her work has been internationally featured in several compilations, anthologies, forums, and festivals. In her 30+ year tenure as a creative organizer, Rha has shaped the face of racial justice and equality, electoral politics, offender aid and restoration, mental health, and youth and young women’s empowerment. With Emerging Women, Rha Goddess was a featured presenter at the fantastic May 2014 Power Party in New York, NY.

In today’s episode, Rha and I spoke about: her work with Move The Crowd and how she’s creating a league of extraordinary creative entrepreneurs; culture, what she means by culture, and how our culture is shifting to a more collective, creative, and diverse expression; working with the global diaspora; limiting beliefs common among entrepreneurs and her six steps for working with them; and finally, her sage advice for Emerging Women everywhere. Here’s my conversation, “Move the Crowd,” with the strong and powerful Rha Goddess.

Hello, and welcome, Rha Goddess! How are you?

Rha Goddess: I’m well, so well. Thank you so much for having me.

CP: Every time I talk to you, I smile and laugh before we even say anything. Why is that? [Laughs]

RG: I feel the same way! [Laughs] I feel the same way. I just think it’s the kindredness, you know? [Laughs]

CP: Yes! I’m just always so inspired by your spirit, which is interesting because you are an amazing business woman. You have this business called Move The Crowd—which we’re going to talk a little bit more about, and your philosophy—but you’re also a poet, a writer, a performer—a slam poet, nonetheless. In fact I was talking to one of our speakers, Dominique Christina, who’s the Women [of the] World Slam Poetry Champion two years in a row, and she said you started this whole thing! That you actually created this women’s slam poetry genre. And I’ve heard a couple people say that.

RG: I don’t know if I created it, Chantal, but I will say that I’ve had the privilege of being one of the early players in the field, and I’m so blown away to see the way that the movement has blossomed, certainly over the last 15+ years. And Dominique is world-class in every sense of the world. I’m so happy that you all are continuing to engage her through Emerging Women, and again, I adore her. Amazing, amazing.

CP: Yes, you know, it’s curious that you are, as an artist, as an activist, a humanitarian—usually when people are humanitarian, they’re sort of creative types. They don’t actually start companies that help people build businesses. It’s not a natural paring, or maybe it is. Maybe it is and this is the future of business. So maybe you could talk a little bit about your history and how you came to be starting Move The Crowd and to be a leader in this genre.

RG: Absolutely. And before we sort of move off to the creative thing, I think there’s a little bit of a mythology out there in the assumption that all creators are not entrepreneurial or all artists are not entrepreneurial. Artists are incredibly disciplined individuals. And you have to be, right? If you just think about, listening to Dominique, read her work, and what it [takes] to bring that level of lyrical brilliance, right? It’s three minutes, right, or five minutes or less. It takes incredible discipline and incredible fortitude to be able to do that. So as much as I know we joke and often we talk about it in the context of our work that’s created as well. We have this perception of not being entrepreneurial or not being so disciplined in ways that would lend themselves to our entrepreneurship. It’s actually quite the reverse.

For me, Move The Crowd is really an integration of everything I’ve done over the last three decade, three-plus decades. The company combines my passion for leadership development, for economic empowerment and personal growth with my commitment to cultural innovation and vital transformations. This was everything I loved in one place. And the mission of the work is really to leverage this movement aimed at fostering a new way of handing our business, and that’s what’s most exciting to me.

I agree with you that it’s not necessarily a normal thing you would see on an artistic resume, but what I will say is that as an artist, I have always been dedicated, committed to, and at work around culture. And capitalism is a culture. [Laughs] We talk a lot about it as an economic system, but it also is a culture. So culture shifting has always been a part of my work. So in that sense, I’m actually right at home fostering this new way of doing business.

CP: I’m interested—what do you mean by “culture”? It’s such an interesting word. Is it community? Is it arts? What is it?

RG: That’s a great question. So part of what we know about culture in the sort of traditional sense are rituals, customs, ceremony, food—these different dimensions of how we move in our lives. But it also is attitude, beliefs, perceptions, lexicon, behavior. And when we talk about shifting culture, those are the places that we really go to work.

And within the landscape of rituals and customs and traditions, there are certain things that foster and liven and empower communities, and there are certain things that challenge and disempower and disenfranchise communities. And there are rituals and customs and traditions that operate in that way as well. And so when I think about culture, it really is about the celebration of our humanity and it is about strengthening the kinds of traditions that enable more of us to thrive from a global perspective.

CP: And then, when you say “culture shifting,” what do you think we’re shifting out of and into right now, as a culture of business leaders and entrepreneurs?

RG: It’s interesting because I think we can speak about it in the entrepreneurial context, but I actually think there’s a larger global shift happening for us as a global community. And I describe it as one of moving out of the age of celebrity and into the age of citizen.

CP: Ha, yes! And not a moment too soon!

RG: Right, right! And what we know about the age of celebrity is it’s been a lot about iconizing and idolizing people and certain types of behavior and certain ways of operating in the world. It’s been a culture that has bred an incredible level of disparity, the haves and the have-nots, the beautiful people and the not-beautiful people, the worthy folks and the not-worthy folks. We can go on and on and on, and it’s really bred, underneath it, these cultural wounds of scarcity and separation.

And I believe that the shift is into the age of citizen. I believe that more everyday people are far less interested in watching celebrities unravel and are much more interested in figuring out how they make their own unique brand of contribution to the planet. I think this new age is less about personal upward mobility and more about quality of contribution, and how do we not just have the right to “succeed,” but how we have the right to make a difference. And that is what I believe we are now organizing ourselves around in this new cultural paradigm.

CP: And when you say “the age of the citizen,” and talking about being able to express our uniqueness, are you talking about that also in terms of—because what I’m seeing is a lot more [of a] collective, relationship-based movement, as well. Is there room for that in this expression of the citizen? Or is it more—

RG: Absolutely. I think the fundamental opportunity of this new age is about unifying. But I do think that within that, understanding, what is it that we each have to offer? What is it that we each have to bring that makes a collaboration so exciting and so important and so necessary and possible? So it’s this combination of, how do we work together, how do we understand—you know, if you think about any of our indigenous traditions, there were women who brought the tomatoes, there were women who brought the corn, there were women who brought the beans. Do you know what I mean? That was what made the stew possible, the beauty and the brilliance of our uniqueness coming together in this collaborative way.

CP: Yes, I feel like it’s something that is held in the feminine, that our expression, our personal, individual expression, is also rooted in impact and giving and connection to others. Whereas in the masculine, the individual expression has more of an individual purpose to it, which is wonderful as well, it’s just a very different feel. And I think that collective community—it feels like it’s definitely coming from this rise in the feminine and more of a different approach than we’ve had in the past.

RG: It’s our gatherer energy. We are communal by nature. That has been—our role throughout the centuries has been to care for the tribe. So we’re always looking to the left and to the right [laughs] and it is ingrained in our being.

CP: Tell us more about who you work with in Move The Crowd. I always thought that it was interesting that you seem to work with—and I’ll use this word—underrepresented clientele, people that are new to business, or a lot of people of color, younger people, Millennials. Tell us more about your clients and why you chose to work with them in particular.

RG: It’s so interesting because I would say, Chantal, that we were the global diaspora, particularly of creative and cultural entrepreneurs who are looking to stay true, get paid, and do good. They’re looking to marry values with economic sustainability and social impact, societal impact.

And I’m conscious about the reframe because I think that we as a nation are carried, still, from the very outdated perceptions about what the population of this nation looks like. It is rapidly changing, whether we are looking at the demographic shift that’s happening with Millennials right now, whether we are looking at what has been called Census 2050 and quickly changed to Census 2040, this idea of “majority minority,” and all of these conversations. But they’re all pointing to the fact that we are undergoing a rapid shift in terms of the makeup of our country.

And I think that what we feel most proud about is that we get to help lead the way for more culturally relevant and creatively engaging professional development experiences. So we want to speak to the diaspora. It is our commitment to speak to the diaspora. And we also want to engage the multiple intelligences. So we’re not just interested in people from the neck up. [Laughs] We want the whole being involved in terms of how we engage.

And our choice to work the creative and cultural entrepreneurs is because when we think about, again, this opportunity to really change the game and foster a new way of doing business in the world, we recognize that culture has been one of the landscapes that has been least activated and least touched. There’s been a lot around policy, there’s been a lot around regulation, there’s been a lot around some of the traditional organizing within the context of economic development. We think that that’s phenomenal work that’s been happening, but there hasn’t really been the cultural will to really look at, what does it take to foster an economy that can work for all people? And I think that’s our commitment. We want to serve people who carry that commitment and who want to build ventures enrich the planet, as opposed to take from it.

CP: Right. It’s funny, I think the diaspora is going to shift. Sometimes when I look at some of these TV anchors and I’m just like, “Oh my God,” and they’re super conservative and they just seem so outdated. It’s funny to think that the people that you’re working with would be the diaspora, you know? It feels like the future.

RG: Yes. It’s the future and the present, right? The face of the new America is wildly diverse. It is multifaceted. It is multicultural. It is multi-perspective. It is multidisciplinary. We are becoming so much more out-of-the-box, and I think it’s exciting. And our commitment to serve people who are playing on all of these edges is exciting to us.

CP: And tell me a little bit more about what you mean when you say “move the crowd.” Movements—you know, just the concept of movement and how this plays into it.

RG: You know, we say “move the crowd,” we mean just that. [Laughs] And it’s really about transforming the mythology that success only belongs to a chosen few. I believe personally that there’s far too much beauty, brilliance, intelligence, and magnificence in the world that we all can’t thrive. For me, in the age of the citizen, it is about providing opportunities where more people can achieve their own unique flavor of success.

And again, like I said, I think it’s rooted in contribution and less in just personal acquisition. And so for me, this idea of demystifying success and this idea specifically supporting the creation of more passion-driven, value-centric, and economically sustainable businesses is really the name of the game for us.

CP: You know, it’s just such a compelling name, and it make sense when you’re talking about cultural shifts. When I think of movements back in the ’60s and the ’70s, they all had a political agenda: “We need to change policy.” And I feel like movements now are more cultural, and that they are just as powerful as changing policy, if not more so because the perspective changes.

And when the perspective changes, demand changes, the economy changes, as opposed to just—which, believe me, I’m so grateful for a lot of the policies and the laws that we have, so I don’t mean to say anything negative about what’s happened. But this concept of movement is shifting in a more of a cultural direction right now. That’s what I see. You’re in a really sweet spot here.

RG: Thank you for saying that. And I do want to say humbly that we do feel that. I think, and this is [something] my beloved Alan Jenkins, who is the executive director of the opportunity agenda would say, we need to move hearts, minds, and policy. I think that we particularly see the hearts and minds piece coming from a context of culture.

I agree with you that we also don’t want to take away from anything that’s come before us because I do think our movement builds on the legacy of work of people who are committed to triple-bottom-line businesses and people who are committed to a more just, harmonious, and sustainable planet. And I don’t think that that movement is new at all. There’s a long legacy of work that we’re building on there.

But the other thing I will say I think is distinct about our movement in addition to the culture piece is the practical. That’s also, how does philosophy meet everyday actions? And I think more and more the movements that are engaging folks today are really thinking about, how do you take it home? And how do you put it on the ground in your life? And, really, how does it become tangible for you as a place to come from?

CP: When you talk about the future—and I really appreciate that practice, by the way. I don’t want to skim over that. I think there’s a lot of theory and concepts out there, and once again, it’s a nice way to bring it into the body, bring it into actual practice and everyday and usefulness. Very, very important, especially when there’s so much concept about what the new economy is and what’s the right business approach. So I super appreciate that.

And now, when you say the “future economy,” what does that look like beyond triple bottom lines? Give me some hard—it is capitalism? Is it socialism? What are we talking about?

RG: I can’t hold any one of those frames with any sense of conviction, quite frankly. If I’m going to call it and we get our way, we’re moving toward an economy of transformation. And from my perspective, some of the attributes are that we’re going to move from a place of being far more creative and cooperative than competitive. We’re going to move from a place of being far more relevant to addressing the needs of our global society as opposed to the agendas of a select few. We’re going to move to a place of being far more interconnected versus isolated and siloed.

And we’re going to engage in multiple currencies. Money will be recognized as one currency, but it’s not going to be the only currency, and it’s certainly not going to have the kind of hierarchical ranking that it’s had where it’s literally been put before humanity. I think our humanity is coming back into the center, and I think that there are other currencies and resources and capacities that are going to be valued just as much as we currently value money.

So I think there is going to be greater balance and greater integration in the future economy. And I think more people are going to participate from a place of being healthy versus from a place of being broken. We don’t really, in my mind, talk enough how wide the gap is, how really wide the chasm is between people who are thriving and people who are not, and how rapidly that chasm is getting bigger and bigger by the day.

I just recently had the privilege to give a commencement address at the ceremony for the School of Graduate Studies for Marlboro College. And I talked about the fact that the economists’ indicator says that 43 percent of the 150 countries that they watch in terms of really understanding the global landscape of civil unrest, that 43 percent, 63 of those 150 countries have had social unrest this year, just this year. So there is a way that we are really working to unearth the ingrained inequity that has had our world economy on lock for a very, very long time. And I think that all of this upheaval is making a way for a new economy. And I believe and hope, again, if I have my way, that these elements are going to be incorporated in what we see in the future.

CP: Cool. May it be so, sister. Dang. We need it. I’m ready, I’m ready. What do you think are some of the limiting beliefs that tend to hold people back from being successful and thriving in their businesses? What do you see out there?

RG: Funny, the most common form—there are three I’m going to name. The most common one is, “I am not enough.” And you can fill in the blank. Smart enough, capable enough, strong enough, connected enough, clear enough. This way that we individually perceive ourselves as somehow being deficit to whatever it is that we want to make manifested in the world. And that is uniformly, across the board, happening. Again, this is sort of a piece of culture, in recognizing and understanding the prevalence of how culture operates.

The other thing that we uniquely see across the board is this belief that if we do what we love, we’ll starve. That somehow [laughs] we cannot have passion and love living next to our money, that in some way, shape, or form, we must sell out in order to make a living. And then I would say the third—we call these the “greatest hits,” by the way, at Move The Crowd. We listen for what we call people’s “greatest hits.” [Laughs] You know, the things that operate all day long that are on heavy rotation in your life.

CP: [Laughs]

RG: We call them your greatest hits. But I would say what’s probably the third most common greatest hit is that people won’t like us, the fear that if we get too successful or too good or too amazing or too wonderful, that we’re going to lose people. And not just the external scrutiny that we’ve come to see, the sort of great American past time of ripping people down in the public form. But we’re going to lose people we love, like our spouses or our parents or our brothers and sisters or our closest friends.

And those three fears tend to keep so many of us paralyzed and not really going for what it is that we know we’re being called to. There are others, but those are the three most common that we encounter in our work.

CP: And do you see some playing out more prevalently in some of the women that you work with?

RG: Yes, I’m going to say the last one, certainly.

CP: Wow, interesting!

RG: The fear of loss. Fear of loss. And again, not that we don’t see the other two. We absolutely do, and again, those play out universally, but there is something about our belief that if we stood in our full power, we would be alone. That tends to keep a lot of us stuck or small.

CP: That is just so deep, I don’t even know where to—I mean, because it’s ringing, it’s deep down there. That is not something I want to put on my list of my greatest hits, but yet as you say it, there is something—I mean, I’m resonating with it. I’m definitely resonating with it. It’s just an interesting concept that I haven’t—so the idea is, just to dig a little bit more into it, is that people won’t like us anymore? Or that we will forget them and move on? Or we will be a different person?

RG: Yes, it’s so funny. I think it’s less that we’ll change. It’s more that the people around us will see us grow and evolve, and they will change in reaction to what they see. Because they’ve become very comfortable with us being a particular way. I’m talking to my women who are the super givers and nurturers and caretakers, and for those women, anything within a 20-mile radius of them has it pretty good. [Laughs]

CP: That’s right! OK, I get that now.

RG: And if you become more committed to building your own vision and your own passion, it means you’ve got less time to help everybody else work their thing out. Fixing and caring for and taking care of can sometimes also be a way that we condition ourselves to believe we get love or we need to get love. We need to do these things to get love. And so often it’s like, “Who will love me if I’m not running around doing all these things for people?” It’s sort of this way that we set up this quid pro quo.

So standing in our power means setting boundaries, sometimes. Standing in our power means being willing to go for the bigger piece. Standing in our power means being to really be rigorous about the question of why we’re here and what it is we are to contribute, whether if it’s a societal framework or not. And so I think that for women it’s difficult because we provide that connective tissue for so much of what’s around us, that when we make a shift, everybody does feel it. And there’s a lot of concern about what that means.

CP: Right. I’m curious to see [if] you yourself—because, God, you seem so invincible and strong. When you talk, you never—for instance, there are some women who have this have this habit of [upward inflection] ending with a question? You never do that. You are like, “I’m saying this, and I’m putting my foot down.” Like I feel you rooted in every sentence you say. Have you ever had limiting beliefs early on in your journey? And how was your way out?

RG: I mean, had? [Laughs] I believe to be human is to have them. And to have them is to be human. What I will say that I’ve done, and what has made a difference for me, has been 1) being willing to confront them head-on and really smoke them out.

We have a whole body of work that we do in our curriculum with entrepreneurs where we really go in, we go into the garden with the shovel, digging for the weeds. [Laughs] We’re coming to pull the weeds! For some of us, it’s like you walk in our garden and it’s really apparent. They’re growing wild and free and crazy. For others of us, we’ve got a beautiful oriental rug on of them, we’ve got a gorgeous couch or chaise lounge, a beautiful lamp. They’re hidden and they’re not conscious.

And so the first piece of work [is] we really walk folks through a six-step process, but the first piece of work is the awareness piece and really being willing to be lovingly rigorous with identifying what those conversations are. And the value to that is that when they come up, you actually can see them operating.

And you can’t do anything until you see, right, Chantal? We can say whatever we want to say, but the truth is you don’t see until you see. And the first opportunity for liberation is awareness. And once you can see them operating—I know for me, once I could see them operating, I actually could slow it down a little bit and go, “Whoa, I’m doing that thing again,” or, “Whoa, I’m saying that thing again to myself.” And then what I really asked myself was, “Was that what I want to do here?” Or, “OK, I see myself doing that, I forgive myself,” [laughs] “and now I’m going to do something different or I’m going to course-correct.”

[So it’s about] this awareness piece and also the acceptance piece, which needs to come before the opportunity to sort of move, to accept that, “Sometimes I can be worse to myself than my own worst enemy with some of the things I say to myself.” And the opportunity to accept that and face that and confront that and start to heal that and forgive myself around that. Pivotal. Pivotal. Because, of course, the first time we see it, the next knee-jerk thing that we want to do is to beat ourselves up about it, which only makes us feel worse, which only digs the hole deeper.

And so there is a real process, a real step-by-step process that was completely life-changing for me—it’s what we teach in our work—to shift it, and it’s what I have, over time, been able to practice. So my conviction doesn’t come from this place of not being human or being better than anybody else. It comes from hours and hours and years and years and decades of practice.

CP: I really appreciate that step, practicing the step of forgiveness and that you didn’t just gloss over it. Because it’s so easy, especially in this—you know, when you really want your business to work and something comes up and it’s so easy to just go to the positive, “No, I can do it, I can do it!” and just push away. Once I’ve got the awareness, I’m moving into this positive affirmation manifest mode.

RG: Not so fast.

CP: Right. I really appreciate that you’re slowing that down and bringing in the, not just the awareness, but the step of self-forgiveness and the acceptable.

RG: Yes. I’m going to give you the six steps, just because we’re here and whoever may be listening, this may be helpful. The first step is awareness. The second step is acceptance—also really important. That’s where you talk about the pushing away. “It’s not me, I’m just [overreacting], or they’re just overreacting.” All those reasons that we want to distance ourselves from the unpleasant, especially as women because that’s our conditioning. So second step is acceptance. How do you be with it? Really confront it and be with it.

Third is forgiveness. And then the fourth is new vision, which is about the new commitment. So, “OK, I’m clear, I don’t want to do that anymore. Here’s what I do want to embrace. Here’s what I do want to believe. Here’s what I do want to hold on to.” Right action [is] step number five. And then step number six is celebration.

CP: Oh, nice.

RG: And I can’t tell you how important the last one is. Because we get it, and we’re on to the next and on to the next. And then we kind of look up and wonder why we don’t feel acknowledged or don’t feel appreciated or don’t feel taken care of. And I’m going to say, be it big, be it small, celebrate every single victory, because you see your progress and you get to own your progress. So when you’re back in those situations, you get to go, “Wait a minute, time out. I’ve got a new commitment.” Or, “I’ve got a new attitude. We ain’t doing that.” [Laughs]

So even in the celebration, it gives you greater capacity to course correct when those situations arise again. And you can be tempted to go into old habits, always stopping or always thinking or always being. So awareness, acceptance, forgiveness, new vision, right action—so you act consistent with the new vision—celebration.

CP: Nice. One of the things that you are strong about in your business philosophy is authenticity, and that authenticity actually will augment your business. And I would like to hear a little bit more about that, especially in the context of the actual business of selling and marketing.

RG: Yes. So another cornerstone of our work is something we call an L3. And I think you remember when we did the wonderful Power Party in New York with Emerging Women, I walked your gorgeous women through a mini-version of this work. The L3 stands for how you live, how you love, and how you lead. And it is our way of getting to the heart of your vision, your mission, and your purpose.

So when we talk about authenticity, the question that we ask in our work is, “What is the context that guides how you live, move, and have your being in the world? And to what degree have we had an opportunity to really touch the true essence of who we are, of ourselves?” Because that’s what gives you access to authenticity and integrity.

And so when you start to think about it in a sales paradigm—it’s so fascinating that you’re asking this question because our theme of the month this month is “represent” [laughs] and it’s a combination of the L3 and USP. [Laughs] Right? And actually, when we teach USP—which is Unique Selling Propositions, so funny that you should ask this—we begin with having out entrepreneurs develop their L3.

Because the authenticity of your being, your core being—and I’ll sort of give you the elements of the L3 so this will make sense as we turn to the USP part. The core elements of the L3 are: how you live, [which is] about what you value, what’s most important to you on the planet, the kind of world you want to see, the kind of values you want to live by. How you love is about your gifts, what you’re here to bring. So it’s the unique combination of your talent, your skills, and your abilities. And then how you lead, which is about your purpose, is about what you’re here to effect on the world. What is the passionate impulse that’s guiding you toward that opportunity or that challenge that is facing humanity, that you want to be the one to engage in an address?

And so your L3 is like a thumbprint. There are no two L3s alike. And we walk our entrepreneurs through a process where they actually develop a declaration. So it’s the articulation of the essence of who they are. And when you come from that place, you being to look at, “Well, why am I creating this offering? What is the impact that I want to have in the world? Who are the people I most want to serve?” So you’re asking different kinds of questions than, “Do I look good? Is my logo hot?” [Laughs] And I’m not saying you shouldn’t have a hot logo, let’s be clear! I’m not saying you shouldn’t have awesome coloring.

But the interrogation comes from a place of spirit as opposed to ego. And it’s less about looking good and more about making a difference and having an impact. And when you sell from that place, right from the love, how you love, what you have to offer and what you want to impact and your values, what you care most about, and the intersection of those three things, you have the opportunity to strike a chord for people who care about what you care about, with people who need what you have to offer, with people who are passionate about and part of the difference you want to make.

And so you attract people from that place. Your speaking looks different. Your market copy looks different [Laughs] Do you understand what I’m saying? When you’re coming from that place, you’re inviting people as opposed to manipulating people to engage with you. And you’re also honoring whether or not it’s a match. So you’re interviewing your clients as much as your clients are interviewing you. Why? Because you don’t want to make any promise you can’t deliver on. That’s the authenticity, that’s integrity. That’s coming back to your values.

So if that is ingrained in how you market and how you sell, you have a different experience of the process. And your client, or your prospective client, has a very different experience of you and what you have to offer in your company because you’re coming from that place.

CP: Right. Well, it’s just so interesting, that concept of interviewing your audience instead of pushing information out. It’s more of a co-creation.

RG: Yes!

CP: And I think that’s part of the new economy that you’re talking about. This is shifting. I see it happening. And the people [who] are doing that, I’m like, “Oh, I like this! I can’t really put my finger on it, but I like it.” I feel invited, somehow.

RG: Yes, it’s about partnership. It’s about partnership. Business is about partnership. It’s about being in relationship, in relationship to everything and everyone in a way that honors and uplifts and expands the quality of experience for everyone and everything involved. That’s a place to come from when you’re building your business.

CP: We are at the end, so I’m going to ask you one more question here as it pertains to women in our Emerging Women audience. Our audience is, in general, I’d say we’re about 60 percent entrepreneurs, but 40 percent executives—people that work for bigger companies. I have a hunch that a lot of those executives, or a percentage of them, actually want to leave their jobs and become entrepreneurs. And we’ll be finding out more about that.

But what advice would you give for somebody who is in that situation, whether they’re an entrepreneur now and they want to change their business, or they’re an executive and they want to become and entrepreneur, or they’re a woman who’s ready to make a huge change but there’s a lot of fear. I know I went through this when I left my fabulous, fabulous job and mentor to start Emerging Women. I would have loved to have heard from you the advice that you would have given me at that time. And I think there are a lot of women in this position.

RG: Yes. There are three things that I’m going to offer up as a way to begin to make the turn. The first thing I want to invite you to do is to carve time and space to nurture the dream. Write about it, draw about it, paint about it, support yourself in being able to help crystalize and bring into manifestation. And we talk about the different ways that we can kind of take things from the ethereal into the material. It’s through writing, through speaking, through sharing, through articulating, that things begin to be make manifest.

So first thing is to create space. It can be a weekend—doesn’t matter. But you’re carving time for yourself, and that time is specifically earmarked to nurture the idea, to nurture the dream. If you’re sharing the dream—this is really important—you are only sharing it with people who you know are going to be good stewards—you know what I’m saying—of what you’re creating.

CP: Yes, very good feedback, thank you.

RG: Do not cast pearls—we all know that saying. [Laughs]

CP: Before the swine!

RG: Do not cast pearls, right? So if you have confidants who can hold the dream with you and be your cheerleaders—a lot of women are forging sacred circles now, and I’m so thrilled. I mean, in every facet of our community, women are forging sacred circles, and I’m going to say that this is a perfect place where you all get to be the keepers of each other’s dreams here. So that’s the first thing. Create space to cultivate the dream. If it makes sense in circle and community, lovely.

The second thing I’m going to say is begin to show up in your present scenario as your whole self. And I say that because oftentimes, Chantal, what happens is people get mad at their jobs. Do you hear what I’m saying? And when you’re mad at your job, you show up a particular way, don’t we? The opportunity is to outgrow the experience of the job. And you don’t do that by constricting. You actually do it by expanding. So the opportunity is to actually excel in such a way that you actually outgrow the experience.

It may sound counterintuitive to do that and cultivate the dream, but you’ll begin to see what I mean when I give you the third one. Because if you see excelling at your job as preparation for running your business, there’s a whole other opportunity and skills that you get to bring to bear. Within excelling at your job, you do want to start to think in an entrepreneurial way. And I’m going to say to you that probably most of your executives are already starting to think in that way, if they’re not already, because, certainly, they’ve achieved a certain level of success within the structure.

But you do want to begin thinking about, “What is your unique brand of leadership? What is your unique brand of contribution? And how are you delivering that in the context of the company, and how is that currently benefiting the company in the context of the things that the company holds near and dear?” So as you begin to—and you’re also results-oriented.

Again, like I said, your executives might guess this, this is all, “Amen, amen, amen.” But, if for whatever reason some of your executives are hearing this and they see the opportunity to re-shift or recommit or recalibrate, you’re about the results. You’re honoring, of course, in the process. You’re honoring, of course, in your leadership. You’re honoring, of course, in your work. And you’re also very much committed to what it is that you want to deliver. Because these are the things that are going to serve you in whatever it is that you’re building, whatever it is that you’re creating.

And then the third thing I’ll give you—I’m only going to give you three, there’s many more I could give you, but three is what I think makes sense in this context—write the resignation letter. Date it. Hold it. You’ll know exactly when it’s time to hand it in. But write the letter, because universally, it’s symbolically recognizes your full intent to make that pivot.

CP: Fabulous. That’s a strong one. Thank you so much, Rha!

RG: So welcome! My honor and my privilege, Chantal. Just to your amazing women, thank you for all that you’re already doing to make our world better.

CP: Right back at you. Thank you so much.

RG: Thank you!

Subscribe to Grace & Fire on iTunes.

[ew-audio-download headline=”Free Audio Download” subheadline=”Power Practices, Vol. 1 Women Who Are Changing the World”]

Gabrielle Bernstein appears regularly as an expert on NBC’s Today Show, has been featured on Oprah’s Super Soul Sunday as a next-generation thought leader, and was named “a new role model” by the New York Times. She is also the author of the books Add More ~ing to Your Life, Spirit Junkie and the new book Miracles Now (published in April 2014). Gabby is also the founder HerFuture.com, a social networking site for women to inspire, empower and connect – AND, she is a featured presenter at the 2014 Emerging Women Live Conference in New York City.

In today’s episode, Gabrielle and I spoke about:

• What she means by: “Everything happens for a reason”
• Shining light on the darkness of fear with our sense of responsibility and purpose
• Working with affirmations and always showing up with presence
• Making forgiveness a practice
• Surrendering and letting the universe take over

Tune in and listen to “Leading with Purpose and Presence” with the powerful and fierce: Gabrielle Bernstein.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript:

Hi, and welcome, Gabby!

Gabrielle Bernstein: Well, I’m happy to be here! It’s so wonderful.

CP: I’m so excited that we’re talking and that you’re part of the Emerging Women lineup this year.

GB: I cannot wait for that.

CP: It’s going to be great. You know, it’s funny, when I was looking at your stuff, I came across a video of yours. And I was like, “Who is this person?” I was just sort of getting to know you, virtually—stalking you—and I pulled up a video, and I don’t know if I shared this with you or not, but you were speaking into the video and you were kind of leaning in and you were talking about, “Everything happens for a reason.” And you were almost like—you were fierce. And I’m like, “Wow, this woman’s fierce,” and you were like, “A book falls off your library shelf, and it means something!” And I was like, “This girl has got to be part of Emerging Women.”

GB: [Laughs]

CP: But can you really explain that? Does that really mean something, if a book falls off your library shelf? What do you mean by that?

GB: We’re always being guided. We’re always receiving a tremendous amount of guidance. And the moment that we can say words like, “There has to be a better way,” or, “I’m not happy, I need help,” we sign an invisible contract with the universe, with God, with Spirit, whatever you believe in, and we say, “Show me what you’ve got. Show me a better way.”

And those moments when we sign that sacred contract and accept that invitation, we open an invisible door to receive all of this guidance. And a tremendous amount of guidance comes through in very unique ways. One of the ways is [that] the book falls off the shelf! Or we see numbers in sequence, or we hear exactly what we needed to hear from a friend who is just divinely placed to tell us that story we needed to receive. And so all of that guidance is coming to us and is always available to us. We just have to open up our awareness to receive it.

CP: And every single thing is meant to be in this way. Everything that happens is communication from the universe?

GB: Yes, we’re always in communication with the universe, at all times. I genuinely believe that if we’re in a low vibration with negative thoughts, negative actions, and poor eating behaviors and addictive patterns, then we’re just having the low-level conversation with the universe, and we’re attracted towards us what’s funky out there.

Whereas, it’s quite the same the opposite [way]: when we’re in a higher-level state, in a higher-level conversation and intention, we are in a conversation that’s very empowering with the universe. And that’s when we start to receive that guidance that we so need, and that’s when we start to receive the resources that we need, and that’s when we start to receive the support that we need and the doors that open for us, and a real flow of energy starts to come into our [lives].

CP: Is that the purpose of the book Miracles Now, to get to the point where we are—because we’re not always in that heightened state, right?

GB: Yes. Definitely one of the purposes of the book. So one of the main purposes of the book is to de-stress and create more flow. So the high purpose of this book is to give people very simple “do them now,” tangible tools that they can access at any time to reorganize their energy, shift their perceptions, move their beliefs around a bit, and bring them back to that higher-level presence. And as they start to elevate their presence on a moment-to-moment basis, they start to experience a completely different reaction and response from them world.

So that is our responsibility: our happiness, our experiences, our livelihood [are] our [responsibilities]. And we must take [them] very seriously, and we must take the necessary action steps to really support ourselves energetically so that we can have that flow in our [lives].

CP: Now, I want to get into the book. I have some favorites that I want to talk about—you have 108 techniques to increase the flow, to remove blocks, to release fear, and I want to go through some of those because I think it just really speaks to the work. And you have certain themes that are running through.

But before we do that, it is rare to find someone so early in their career so—I keep using the word “fierce” because that’s what I get from you. It’s so funny because when I look at your picture, it’s not what I see, but when I hear your material, your content comes through very passionately and like a laser. And I’m curious to see if you could just give us a little background. How did you come to this level of depth and focus and commitment so early in your life?

GB: I’ve been teaching these practices since 2005. So for almost a decade now, I have been a spiritual teacher. I’ve been a spiritual student my whole life. I was brought up in a home—I was brought up by a yogi metaphysician mother, who brought me in and out of ashrams and taught me to meditate as a child. So this dialogue and this conversation, this type of content, was always very present in my awareness and in my life.

And then I turned my back on it for a while, and then when I was 25 years old, I hit a big bottom. I had a quarter-life crisis, and I really had that turning point of looking at my life. I was stuck in drug addiction and love addiction and work addiction, and pretty screwed up at that time. But I had spiritual seeds that had been planted, so I knew that there was a better way. So at that point, I chose to shift gears. I got sober at that time, and then picked up my spiritual roots and my meditation practice, and have been cultivating a great inner awareness ever since.

So the fierceness that you are speaking of, I believe, is really just my commitment to God and my commitment to Spirit and my commitment to a world beyond our physical site. I am at a place in my own spiritual awareness that I genuinely believe—and this isn’t for everybody, so if a listener that’s hearing this is taken out by this, I apologize, but it’s my truth—that we chose our bodies and our experiences so that we can come back and learn great lessons so that we can teach them.

And so I’m going to do whatever I can with this physical presence that I’ve been given so that I can be an extension of the truth that I have learned. And that fierceness comes because I have such a strong conviction with what it is that I teach, and I know this is the time when we deeply need these tools and principles to balance out the energy of these time. So I feel a tremendous amount of responsibility to be a messenger and to choose love.

CP: I love the loudness of your message. Please don’t hold back—not that you would, doesn’t sound like you’re going to—during this interview, because we really want to feel you. It’s interesting that you talk a lot about choosing love, and again, you just said we choose what our lessons are for this world and this lifetime. And that is kind of a hot topic, when people have very intense tragedies that happen to them and they’re trying to make sense of, “God, did I bring this on myself?” Can you talk a little bit about that since it is so hot, and see if you can help us really understand what you’re saying when you say that we choose that which shows up in our lives?

GB: I believe that some of us have been dealt more difficult decks of cards, right? Some of us may have been given very difficult circumstances. But we have our specific examples, such as Gandhi or Nelson Mandela or people who have overcome great, great, great trauma to only step out and become great leaders.

So I think that in those instances where you may individually feel like a victim or feel like you have really just been dealt this really crappy deck of cards, why don’t you turn to your predecessors who have been the voices and the leaders who have come before us and ignited that in you, and recognized that Mandela within you, and recognized that the other person is you, that you have the capacity to really step out in that greatness and, through your own healing and your own practice of perceiving love and your own practice of forgiveness and your own spiritual experience, you can be a guide, too.

So that, I think, is one of those clear ways to look at some of the difficult ways that we show up for life. But ultimately, so much of what happens—whether it be a traumatic experience that’s very, very, very scary or a traumatic experience that may be somewhat simple—we have an option in both situations. We can lean on the spiritual principles of forgiveness and we can lean on our desire to change our perceptions, and we can use prayer and meditation as a mechanism for healing. Or we can be angry. We can be resentful. We can carry that anger and victim mentality around with us for decades.

And those are the choices that we make. By no means am I saying that we should spiritually bypass our discomfort. I believe that a lot of the healing that we must go through comes through feeling our feelings and going to the depths of those feelings. I’m being trained to teach Emotional Freedom Technique, which is otherwise known as tapping, and [you learn to] just feel it, to just go there and feel it. And then as you feel it, you will heal, and in that healing you can come out the other side.

CP: Let’s talk a little bit about fear, because it just seems like that is such a paralyzing force. And in order to get the flow going and to actually feel like I’m open to the messages of the universe, sometimes I myself feel like I can get completely stuck in this fear zone. Why is it that you focus on fear? It seems to be that I’m not the only one. But what is it about that fear and love, opposites, that feels juicy for you in this book?

GB: You know, I think that fear is one of the main, main stories and main reasons that we block that presence of power, we block our greatness. And a huge message throughout the book that I think really combats fear in a big way is that the book is also set up like a teacher’s manual. It’s designed in such a way that, as the author, I’m empowering the reader to master the lessons in their own life so they can be an expression of those truths.

And so when we take on the responsibility of becoming a teacher, in whatever form that means for us—not necessarily meaning that we have to go get a [mega loan] or just go write a book, but being a teacher to our children, or being a teacher to our co-workers, or being a teacher to our loved ones. When we accept that call, what happens is that we have this really interesting relationship to fear where we have to look at our fear and say, “Well, I’ve got work to do, fear, and that’s my responsibility, that’s my purpose, that’s my intention, and I’m choosing not to let this energy stand in the way.” When we start to have a greater sense of responsibility and purpose, that can shine so much light on that darkness.

And I also believe that we have to be in the process of unlearning and remembering. So [what] I’m learning this year is that we chose to believe in our children and we chose to pick up and we chose to carry on, and remember the love and the light that we are. And that unlearning and remembering comes to us also in many different forms.

For some people, they needed to become a student and a follower of Emerging Women and they learned from the teachings that you provide. Or some people might start reading my book. Or some people might find a Buddhist path. Whatever spiritual path you are lead to, that is your opportunity to go through the process of unlearning and remembering. So when you find that guidance to that path, show up for it and use the tools that you are given.

CP: I think at some point in the book, or I’ve heard you say this in your material, that fear and love are opposites, and it’s not necessarily so obvious when one thinks about that. What’s the interplay between fear and love?

GB: I’m a student and a teacher of a metaphysical text called A Course in Miracles. And A Course in Miracles teaches that fear and love cannot coexist, that one is the opposite of the other. And where there is love, it will cast out all fear. And so the fear that we choose is the separation from love, the disconnect from love. When we start to bring that loving perspective back in, we remember that fear is no longer real.

So that’s a practice. It’s a practice, and it’s a commitment. It’s a reprogramming and it’s a mind training, which is really what A Course in Miracles is. It’s a mind training. And so these lessons comes to us as we open our minds to receive guidance.

CP: And when you say “love,” what kind of love? Are you thinking self-love or love for others? Love in general, for the universe?

GB: Love, in this case, being the presence of inspiration, the presence of intuition, the presence of an empowering voice within, the presence of God, if you understand what that means to you. And so we need to get to a place where we start to raise our relationship to that voice.

I wrote Miracles Now for the people—because, through my own 10 years now of [going] through this unlearning and remembering, I have been in a process of moving from one point [of] living in darkness and then having fleeting moments of light to now living in the light with fleeting moments of darkness. So my hope and my intention for my readers is to, through these tools and practices, live one moment at a time in more and more light, so that their experiences—that they too live in the light with those fleeting moments of darkness.

And so that, once again, comes with our commitment and our conviction. And A Course in Miracles says that these miracles arise out of conviction. So it’s our conviction that brings forth that truth and those miracles and that commitment to love. And that voice of love starts to be raised, the volume of that voice starts to be raised and amplified, and the volume of that fear-based voice starts to become weaker and smaller and softer.

CP: Do you feel that, as you continue to practice this, that—and it sounds like this has happened in your own life—fear actually takes on a different texture and a feeling? That it becomes more, I don’t know, subtle or harder to identify?

GB: Yes, I think that’s exactly right. People will say, “Well, do you still get fearful?” The answer is, “Of course I do,” but I don’t believe in that fear anymore. Is the fear there? Yes. But do I believe in it? No. And that’s a big, big, big deal. That’s a big deal.

CP: So it’s just there, and you experience it, but it’s not running your life or you’re not paralyzed and you’re moving through it?

GB: Yes, that’s exactly right. Yes.

CP: It just seems like a lot of things are fear. I guess this is what I’m trying to get at. It seems, when you think about it, anxiety is fear, stress is fear, self-doubt—it seems like that fear is such a big part of—

GB: Yes, so whenever we’re in a place of judgment or attack or separation or doubt or littleness, that’s fear, that’s all fear-based. You know the difference, everyone listening knows the difference, if you’ve ever been in a place of low-level anxiety and tension and fear versus a place of [a] committed path and love and faith. And so the antidote to fear is faith, and that comes with our commitment to that faith.

CP: OK, so here’s a couple of things that I just stuck out, and they’re different numbers, but #12 of your techniques illustrates the principle that all minds are joined. Please talk about that.

GB: Yes. This is from A Course in Miracles, which is really like, you might think that you’re sitting at your desk being so kind and appropriate, but your thoughts are, “I hate my boss, I hate my boss, I hate my boss.” The energy from that thought is exuding off of your physical presence, and that energy is being picked up. And that energy is enforcing what your experience is. So your experience is not necessarily based on your actions and what you say or what you do, but actually how you be, the energy that comes from you is what is the true expression of your experience.

And so the work that we must do as spiritual students is to clean up our thoughts to the best of our ability through practices like forgiveness and prayer and meditation so that we can then come out the other side cleared of the energy. Because the thoughts hold the energy, and as we clear the thoughts we clear the energy of our experiences.

So “all minds are joined” means that your thoughts are being felt miles and miles away. I was mad at somebody this past week for something that did that I thought was really uncool. And I’m not responding, necessarily, with words or emails or letting her know how I feel, but I’m telling you, she knows exactly how I feel just because of how strong my energy is. That can be very manipulative, too, so you have to be very careful with that.

CP: So here’s my question with that: you talk about forgiveness and other practices, but you never talk about affirmations. I’d love for you to speak about that, because usually when people want—

GB: I actually have a way of work with affirmations that is really helping emphasize the importance of the energy work, not just the verbal work. Because saying an affirmation or reading an affirmation carries a tremendous amount of power, because words have so much power, but we have to make sure that we’re not just throwing the words over the negative funky feelings. And that we use the words, in essence, to change the feeling. Because the feeling is what is attracting—the vibration of the way you feel is what is attracting your likeness.

So the best way to use an affirmation is to make sure you’re using affirmations that create a feeling within you, that really elevate you on a visceral level. And so I actually do use affirmations a lot. I have an affirmation alarm clock app called Spirit Junkie where you can set an affirmation to wake you up in the morning. Rather than waking up to your crazy emails or your text messages, you can wake up to this affirmation to set yourself up to win with those empowering words from the onset of the day.

I believe in the power of words. I believe in the power of intentions. And so whatever affirmations you’re using, make sure that you’re emotionally and spiritually connected to them so that they create a feeling within you that can carry you. And that feeling is what attracts what it is that you desire towards you or, at low levels, what you don’t want. So use words and affirmations that elevate you and bring you up so that you can start to really show the presence of greatness within your life.

CP: OK, and is it possible to just focus on the feeling and the state of consciousness and not so much on the words?

GB: Absolutely. I think the words are just symbols, right? The words are there to help that feeling, but it’s even better if we can get to the feeling without the words.

CP: That’s what I was thinking! I mean, sometimes when I’m in the affirmations, the words distract me from actually feeling the state of consciousness. So for me, I just sort of go right for the feeling and don’t even do the words, but I’m just curious to see if that’s still a technique that’s valid. Seems like it.

GB: Yes. I really genuinely believe that we must be in the presence of really owning our emotional state and owning the presence of our energy. That’s actually the second lesson—the main, main purpose of the book Miracles Now as well is to give people the greater understanding that their presence is their greatest source of power.

Yogi Bhajan said, “If your presence doesn’t work, neither will your words.” A huge part of this book, the intention for this book, is to help readers to start to really know the difference between their power presence and their low-level presence, and to start to show up with just their presence. You don’t actually have to always show up with your words or your perfect suits or your perfect look and your perfect hair. It’s much more [about], how do you protect yourself from an energetic standpoint? What’s the energy imprint that you’re leaving on the space that you enter into?

CP: OK, “Make forgiveness a practice.” Talk to us about that. Self-forgiveness? Forgiveness of others?

GB: Both, both! I think one of my greatest virtues is that I forgive myself every moment. It’s a constant dance of forgiveness that I am in with my own states of mind. Every moment offers me an opportunity to check out, to feel disconnected, to feel not good enough, to feel like I should have done something different or better, or I’m not like the person that I’m being out on Instagram, or whatever we do. And so though the process of forgiveness, we can unlearn those fears and dwell in that space of love and that energy of love and that voice of love starts to become very loud within us.

And so forgiveness can be a little overwhelming for people, but I like to teach forgiveness from the prospective that it’s not so much about what we do, it’s much more about really opening up to the desire to forgive. And with that willingness and desire to forgive, we are given all the resources that we need. That’s maybe when a person comes back into our life and we needed to confront them. Or a fearful situation takes over and we have to show up for it and learn the lesson that we needed to learn. Or a book comes into our life. I think the willingness to forgive is the greatest opportunity to create that change.

CP: OK, just [to] ask, [and] this is something that I feel that a lot of women in our audience are overcoming or they’re working on: feeling fearful about asking for what we want. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

GB: Yes. I think if we want to receive great support in life, we have to get in the habit of asking for it. And once again, asking with an energy of desperation creates a weird, bizarre response.

CP: [Laughs] Right.

GB: But asking with a clean energy that is filled with love and compassion and release—I think asking with a sense of release releases outcome and it releases tension [means] that ask will be well-received. And so rather than being afraid of asking, just learn to ask with an intention that is clean and then you can trust and know that if that intention is clean behind what you’re asking for, you can genuinely know that what you will receive back will be clean.

CP: Tell us what you mean by “surrender.” You have that throughout the book. It’s one thing to communicate with the universe and really understand what the signs are, and I think that somehow the surrender part is the toughest part. Once you get a sign, “OK, now I have to do this,” and you don’t want to do it and you really have to keep making that trusting step, how do you actually stop the will from directing your life and really surrendering and letting the universe do that for you?

GB: You know, surrender really comes through prayer. So we have to get ourselves into a constant contact with our inner guidance system. And as we start to cultivate that connection and that awareness that comes through prayer, the intention setting in a prayer, we can really let go and allow.

So for me, I don’t think surrender comes from dropping everything or some radical act. Surrender, for me, comes through a prayer of conviction. So I wake up every day and I surrender my day over to a power greater than me. I say, “Where would you have me go? What would you have me do? What would you have me say?” And just tone—this is a prayer from A Course in Miracles. I just say, “Show me what you’ve got. Take it over.”

And that’s when we step aside. We get out of the way. We surrender our will and allow a power greater than ourselves to take over. And that is, by far, one of the simplest things to do, but we make it so hard.

CP: It is hard! Why is it so hard?

GB: Because we don’t believe in it. Because our ego believes that we have to control. Our ego believes that we have to make things happen. Our ego believes that we need to push and scream and force things to occur. And that belief system is what really, really keeps us stuck in the dark. So it’s our responsibility to really learn how to navigate that belief system in a different way.

CP: But don’t you think there is a sort of a grace-and-grit combo?

GB: I believe that prayer without action is kind of nothing, and action without prayer is nothing, right? So we have to combine our spiritually aligned action. And we have to take action from a place of intuition, not from a place of fear. So I take a lot—you know me well enough now to know that I am an action-oriented woman.

CP: Holy moly. Yes you are.

GB: But every action I take comes from a very intuitive place.

CP: Right.

GB: I check in with my spirit, I check in with my spirit guide, I check in with angels, “Would you have me do this?” When I send out an email newsletter, I put out my mantras as I press “send.” When I post a tweet, if it doesn’t feel connected, I delete it. Every action I take has to feel connected to my highest presence and my highest truth, and if it doesn’t, then I will do whatever it takes to release it or forgive it or take it back.

CP: OK, here’s a question. It’s personal. A lot of what’s in the book, and just in your work in general, is to really raise your vibration, raise that communication with the universe, get into that receiving state. And in order to do that, you don’t want to be, like you said, eating super low-vibration food or hanging around people [who] are not in your best interest or having habits that are bad. I mean, you seem to lead a very clean lifestyle.

GB: I do.

CP: Do you have any bad habits?

GB: Yes. I’ve been sober almost nine years, so I just keep clearing more and more. I just got rid of sugar. A bad habit is going off the reservation sometimes with the chaos. Little things can still make me frazzled. It’s the little stuff that just kicks me outward. The big stuff I’ve totally got under control. That’s a bad habit.

I think I definitely have a bad habit of being very, very focused in work and my career and building this movement that I’m creating and co-creating with everyone around me, and not focusing enough on how much fun I have. So there’s actually a lesson in Miracles Now called, “measure your success on how much fun you’re having.”

CP: I saw that! Yes.

GB: I made that my New Year’s resolution one year because my husband’s really, really fun. He teaches me a lot about how to create more fun, whether it be going to see live music or art or just getting really into a discussion. I just started to [think], “Thank God I married this person who just keeps me grounded in the world and reminds me that it’s not all about how many people come to my Wake Up. It’s about, how much fun can I have while I do it?”

CP: All right. Well, thanks so much for your time today. This has been—it’s like your book—very focused and 108 techniques and superpower-punched, so I appreciate it. And I’m looking forward to spending time with you in October.

GB: I can’t wait! I can’t wait. It’s going to be wonderful.

CP: Take care, Gabby. Thanks so much.

GB: Thank you!

[ew-audio-download headline=”Free Audio Download” subheadline=”Power Practices, Vol. 1 Women Who Are Changing the World”]

Kris Carr is the subject and director of the documentary Crazy Sexy Cancer which aired on TLC and The Oprah Winfrey Network. Kris is also the author of the award-winning Crazy Sexy book series. Her latest books, Crazy Sexy Diet and Crazy Sexy Kitchen, will change the way you live, love and eat! Kris was a Keynote Speaker at the 2014 Emerging Women Live Conference in New York City.

In today’s episode, Kris and I spoke about:

• What exactly is well-being, and how this can be different for different people
• How the flow of grace and fire has affected her life and using happiness as her guide
• Her shift from Health Guru to Women’s Emergence and Empowerment
• The feminine component of resiliency
• Using sexy as a strength that women can draw from

Tune in and listen to “Crazy, Sexy Woman” with the Crazy Sexy: Kris Carr.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript:

Hello, and welcome, Kris Carr!

Kris Carr: Thanks for having me! Hi!

CP: Hi! And I’m reaching you here now in Woodstock, right?

KC: That’s right. I’m at home in Woodstock, New York.

CP: Gosh. That sounds so amazing to live in. I mean, I live in Boulder, I think it might be a little similar, but I think it’s more rural out there, correct?

KC: Yes. We’re very similar. We just have much smaller mountains. When I came out to visit Boulder, I was like, “This has the same Woodstock vibe. It really does.”

CP: Yes. Except isn’t Woodstock really small?

KC: It’s very tiny, yes. Very tiny.

CP: Yes, I just picture you—on your website you have an image of yourself in an old, old truck holding a green drink.

KC: [Laughs]

CP: I’m just like, that’s the life! You know?

KC: That’s what we try to do out here in the woods.

CP: Right? So your first book—I remember when it came out several years ago—is called Crazy Sexy Cancer. And I know what’s crazy about cancer, and I’m hoping that you can tell us all what’s sexy about cancer.

KC: [Laughs] We’ll get to the short answer first. There’s nothing sexy about cancer. For me, Crazy Sexy Cancer came from two things: 1) there were mass emails that I would send friends and family, they were “Crazy Sexy Cancer” updates. And this [was] my way of showing my very frightened crew—because I was diagnosed with an incurable stage 4 cancer that had started in my liver and had spread to both my lungs. This was my way to update them and let them know that I still had my sense of humor, I still was the same irreverent girl, and that I wasn’t going to let cancer define me.

It was an important step for me to kind of poke fun at cancer, not take it all so seriously. It was also really helpful for the people going through the experience with me. Not everybody has that same experience, but that was my lifeline. And then later, as my journey continued to unfold and the years continued to go by with cancer, and certainly when I kind of came on the scene in a much bigger way, I used “Crazy Sexy Cancer” almost like as a definition.

And it’s a bit insane, so here we go: “crazy,” for me, that’s out of the box, forward thinking. It’s that kind of speak when somebody says, “Oh, that will never happen, that’s crazy,” and then you and I and everybody listening says, “Really? Watch us.” “Sexy” is empowering, and “cancer” is “teacher.” For me, cancer is my teacher. And so that really has been my way of going through this process, but also teaching others that are interested in my philosophy how to create a map for themselves.

CP: Now, there’s a lot of people, I’m sure, listening to this that haven’t read your book and they don’t know your background, but you actually were diagnosed with stage 4 cancer, am I correct?

KC: Correct. That’s right.

CP: And it seems that when we look at you and your career has exploded, of course, that one could deduce that you’re doing really well and that you’ve recovered. And yet—we’ve had a conversation—you’re actually not recovered from the cancer.

KC: Correct!

CP: Correct. I want to jump into that, because offline we were having that discussion, [and] we want to be really clear to people that you haven’t recovered and yet, we started talking about what is recovery? What is wellness? What is feeling well and well-being in the world, and what standard is this being measured against? Especially when we’re talking about cancer. And I’m curious to see if we can open up with that, if you could enlighten us having not recovered from cancer and yet doing fairly—one would look at you, and I don’t know if I’m projecting, and say, “That’s a healthy woman.”

KC: [Laughs] Well, thank you.

CP: And a sexy woman!

KC: I’ll take that projection, thank you very much. You know, it’s a great question, so let’s see if we can unpack it in layers. For people who don’t really know a lot about my story, I was diagnosed with this very rare cancer. And we’ve been tracking me for about 11 years now, almost 12, and I’ll be tracked for the rest of my life. When I was first diagnosed it was every two months. Now it’s every year and a half I go get a CAT scan.

And the thing about the sarcoma that I have is that it can be slow-moving, but it can also be aggressive, and it can start slow-moving and become aggressive. So all these different things can happen with this teacher that I have. And for me, it’s been about learning to live while still having an end-stage disease.

There was a time when I really wanted to be cured. Even when I was first starting out, I’d gone over and my career was exploding and I was feeling better because I was doing all of these different lifestyle practices. I was a fast-food junky, standard American diet queen, stress junky—very similar to other people’s stories. I just didn’t know my story would be—the cherry on top of it would be this diagnosis.

And so when I started to make big shifts—like moving to Woodstock, leaving my last career, learning how to take care of myself, taking cooking classes—my life got a lot better. And my health got better. Certainly my immune system got stronger. There had been times when I’d seen a reduction in tumor size.

But there was a part of me that was still going for this goal. I love goals. I’m a type A driven, ambitious, thriver in all aspects of my life. So in the beginning when I took cancer head on that way, I think it was good for me. Because as the time went on, I realized that it actually was not good for me. I was doing all of these things for the wrong reason. And I was putting impossible goals on my shoulders. I’d go to these scans, and everybody would be happy but me. Everybody would be happy but me!

So about a couple years ago, I decided to really shift that. And that’s when I began deeply exploring for myself, “What is it to truly accept yourself? To love all parts of you, even the parts of you that, on paper, are diseased and really scary.” And it wasn’t an overnight success with that. There [were] a lot of tiers, a lot of [feelings] of failure. I think I felt more like I was dying then than I ever did when I heard I was diagnosed. Because a part of me was dying. This really ambitious, driven, goal-oriented, get-my-old-life-back-no-matter-how-uncomfortable-that-was, that part of me was dying. That part of me was a big part of my identity.

So as I move toward answering your question—“What is it to be well?”—I think every single person has a different definition for that. But it isn’t always the absence of disease. In my mind, it’s the presence of vitality. It’s the presence of vitality, and that vitality is physical vitality, which may come and go, and when it’s on the down side, that’s when we have to put our attention. But it’s also mental, emotional, and spiritual vitality. That’s what wellness really is. And I didn’t get that until I was much more mature and into my 11^th year of living with cancer. I read it. I wrote it. I didn’t get it.

CP: Are you talking about—when I hear “vitality,” I think energy and [how] I feel about the physical body. But you alluded to a spiritual vitality and an emotional vitality. Are those all connected?

KC: Well, for me, they’re different, but they are connected. We can’t separate them. That’s what Western medicine does. It cuts us all up, it looks under a microscope, it separates everything and never gets to the root. So in my life experience, that sort of mental/emotional vitality is, “What’s holding me back? What’s keeping me stuck? What are the parts of my life?” Or maybe even going into some of my darkness, my limiting beliefs, the pain that I may have from, let’s say, not forgiving somebody, and really putting some energy there.

Because as these energetic beings—and certainly for me, I’m very mindful of my energy, because my energy can dip when I’m not feeling well. “But what’s not feeling well? Well, where is it coming from, Kris? Where is the source?” And if it happens to be some sort of emotional or mental blockage that I’m feeling, then that’s where I’m going to put that energy.

For me, the spiritual side of that is really—spirit, to me, is a community. It’s communion. It’s a singular connection to a much bigger whole. And so, “Where in my life am I not connected to the whole? Where in my life am I feeling isolated?” And wellness is about tending my garden. There are so many different plants in my garden. I’m gardening for the second year in a row, and gosh, I’m learning so much. I don’t even have than many varieties, I think I have 20 plants this year. But wellness is tending those plants and all their different needs and all their different soil types and pH and watering needs and all of that. And I have the same sort of palate, the same garden within me, so to speak. And sometimes it isn’t about the green juice. It’s not about the green juice, and it takes me a long time to really believe that.

CP: There’s a lot in the green juice.

KC: Yes, there is a lot!

CP: But it’s not everything. [Laughs]

KC: [Laughs] It’s not everything! It’s easy—

CP: I know, it’s hard to get to that point when you first start on the green drink, though, right? [Laughs]

KC: It really is. It’s so easy for me to give people recipes and eating plans, and I’ve written so many books, including a New York Times bestselling cookbook, and I didn’t even know how to cook when I started this whole journey. But the bigger work comes from when we look at what’s behind—for example, when people say to me, “This is all so hard, this is all so overwhelming, can you just give me the exact thing I have to do?” I can, but what we ought to do is look at what’s behind why it’s so hard, what’s behind why it’s so overwhelming, what’s behind why you, perhaps, don’t feel like you’re equipped enough to make a juice. Because we are. It’s pretty simple. But what’s going on in your life that makes you feel like you’re incapable?

Coming back to the whole healing journey and wellness: again, it’s the presence of vitality in all aspects of your life. And the neat and exciting part is that if you’re not feeling it, you can. You really can. And it doesn’t necessarily mean you have to be perfect on paper. None of us are perfect on paper. The fact that we all have cancer cells running through our bodies right now. For most of the folks out there, yourself included, your immune system is picking them up and saying, “Hey, no, not in my backyard, thank you very much.”

CP: Yes. I think it’s really interesting that you brought up—just to tag onto that question, “What does it mean to be well, and what is well-being?” and that concept of being cured. I mean, that’s not just a disease situation. We do that with our personalities and these patterns that we have for doing X when Y happens. You just want it to go away. “I just want it to go away! I want to cut it out and be done with it.” And yet, learning to live with it, as you’ve learned to live with the cancer, is such a good metaphor for finding a way to make that which plagues us, as a disease might plague us, into a teacher.

KC: Well, I love the way you said that. It’s really beautiful and it’s such an important point that you bring up. There [are] two things that come to me: 1) for me, it’s learning to live with this disease. And I can imagine that some people out there are going, “I don’t want to live with the thing that I have! That’s awful.”

So let’s go deeper into that, because really, what that means to me is that regardless of what’s going on in your life—whether you’re going through a divorce or you’re going through a diagnosis, whether you’ve [gone through] some trauma and you’ve got some residual grief and anger around it, and no matter how you’ve tried, it’s not shifting. Learning to live with something is about saying, “No matter what’s going on in my life, I will not abandon myself. I’ve got my own back. I’m not going anywhere. We’re going to get through this.” That’s that learning to live with something is.

So it’s not settling. It’s not saying, “Oh well, luck of the draw, white flag, this sucks.” It’s saying, “I got you. Yes, we’re going through a tough time, but [you’ve] got me on your side. I won’t go anywhere. I accept you even though this is not great. There’s shame here, there’s disease here, there’s anger here, there’s violence here, whatever it is, I still accept you.” And [in] that place, I feel like a lot of our emotional agony starts to dissolve and then we can continue to make that game plan.

So that’s part 1 that came up for me based on your awesome question and musing. And part 2 is this: Again, from my experience, curing—great, great conversation—is the physical body. There are a lot of things that we can do to address that, and sometimes that’s possible and other times it’s not. Or other times it might take longer than we’d like it to take. And in my life, it’s going to be one of those things. Either it’s never going to happen—brutally honest—or it’s just going to take longer. Either a cure’s going to come up, there’s more research being done, my vitamin C IVs are going to make a breakthrough. Who knows? I hold space for both.

So curing happens when something shifts in the physical body. But healing is very different. Healing takes places in the spiritual and emotional bodies. Healing is what we just talked about, saying that, “I will not abandon you. I’m going on this journey with you, and we can continue to unpack what might be getting in our way, holding us back, great teachers for us to look at so that we can become more fully actualized and joyful, ultimately, human beings.”

CP: Yes. It would be nice not to have that sickness or the trauma to remind us that this is something we can start working on now, and should be working on now. That’s the thing, sometimes we need to get really sick or [fight] against something that’s really traumatic before we realize that, “Oh, we need to tend the garden,” and it’s like a weedfest.

KC: Totally. Of course it would be nice, but guess what? There [are] so many spices on the rack. Do you want to live your life through the lens of three colors that you feel comfortable with? I can tell you I’m a much more interesting person [laughs] as a result of all the things that I’ve gone through with this experience. I’m more interesting to myself, let alone other people.

CP: Interesting, interesting.

KC: There [are] pieces of this journey I would never want to relinquish or take back.

CP: Yes. What’s been the biggest personal perspective change that you’ve had since you’ve been diagnosed?

KC: I think that every year is a little different, quite honestly. I don’t have one big ah-ha. I’d say the big ah-ha was, “I can cook! Wow! I’m not dumb!” [Laughs] “I can figure this out. Green juice isn’t so awful.” All along the way, “Oh, wait, I said ‘poop.’ Oh, wait, I never have pooped.” So all along the way in my journey there have been these awakenings that help me feel better, live better.

But I’d say where I live right now is—like I said, I’m that driven person. I’m very ambitious. There’s a lot going on in my life. I had to be very mindful of the freight train that is Kris Carr. Because I’m not happy when I’m moving that fast. And when I’m not happy, I get sick. And when I get sick, that’s not good. So really, really being mindful about my commitments, being mindful about my vision. I do think that we can have so much in our lives. I do not think we can have it all. I think our task is to get very clear about what is essential. What do you really want? And then clear some clutter out, because it creates that space.

And I know you know this. It creates that space for creativity. Creativity doesn’t happen when you’re booked to the minute. And creativity is essential for your business, for your growth, for your spiritual practice, for your artistry, for everything! For healing. For healing, it’s very important.

CP: It’s funny—when we consider [that] the title of the podcast is Grace and Fire, and you’ve sort of just somewhat answered my question, but you definitely seem like someone who’s got a lot of fire.

KC: [Laughs] Yes.

CP: And something like this, that forces you to slow down, that kind of changes that and creates space—you know, Maya Angelou, she was sexually abused and basically announced the perpetrator and then he was killed, and then she went into a silence for many years. And [she] really credits her entire creative life from what she discovered during that silence. And so there’s all kinds of stories in history, including yours, where women have gone in and slowed things down—and men—and then really got in touch with their creativity in that space of silence.

But it’s a dance, and I call that “grace,” where we’re not trying to force something and we’re allowing. I’m just so amazed at the difference. Some people are more grace than fire, and that’s how they approach the world. And some are more fire than grace. I’m just curious to see how that’s shifted for you and if you’ve noticed an impact in the output, so to speak, of what you’re creating by having more grace or less grace?

KC: I love your questions. Can I just say that again?

CP: Oh, God, that’s so sweet, thank you!

KC: Both are needed in my life—there’s no doubt about it—and in all of our lives. And I’d say as far as the impact of what I’m putting out in the world, I think that the impact goes a lot further when I give from a place where it’s very concentrated, it’s very rich, as opposed to just spraying my ideas everywhere and overcommitting myself and just stretching my business and my person, because we’re kind of one in the same sometimes, to a place where I’m just completely fatigued. People are busy. People have a lot going on in their lives. Give them what they need. Don’t overwhelm them. They’ve already got full inboxes. These are the things that I say to myself when I’m creating and I’m putting out weekly content and all the stuff that I do on social media, etc.

And I think what happens when we step into grace more is we begin to trust that it’s enough. It is really, really enough, and I never really trusted that. I got to a place at a certain time in my career where I felt as though if I didn’t continually put stuff out there, people would forget me. I’d heard some things here and there from different people, different publishers, “You’ve got to stay on this machine that you’ve created.” And as soon as I let that go, it got better.

So that grace teaches us that we also have to be happy in the process. As we merge and give our gifts to the world, use your own happiness as your guide.

CP: Yow. Yo, yo. Yes.

KC: Because if you don’t, you’re going to fucking fizzle, man.

CP: Total!

KC: [Laughs]

CP: That’s a good one. Yes. At Emerging Women, you’re going to be talking about Crazy, Sexy Women, and you’ll be probably talking to crazy, sexy women and with crazy, sexy women. Tell us a little bit about how you’ve evolved from your focus on cancer to what I’m calling a wellness guru, and now you’re focusing on women and women’s emergence and empowerment. How has that evolved recently for you?

KC: Well, it’s evolved as I’ve evolved. It’s grown as I’ve grown. In the beginning, it started with the movie that I made for TLC, and then my book, and being on Oprah and all these things, but really the first two books and a lot of my writing and blogging and articles were all geared toward young women with cancer. I did all that because when I got sick, and I went looking for a movie and looking for books for somebody like me, I couldn’t find [them]. So I wrote [them]. I made [them].

I didn’t have plans. I didn’t have plans that would go any further than that. But after I was on The Oprah Winfrey Show, I was blown away by the number of people who emailed us and basically crashed our servers time and time again, saying, “I don’t have cancer, but I really like what you’re saying, and I need some of this in my life. Is it OK, is it weird that I’m hanging out with you? Is this just for cancer patients?”

So at that point, I started [opening] up my audience, very mindfully, to people who are also interested in prevention. So it was patients and people who were interested in just feeling better. And that’s been wonderful. I’ve written several books about diet and lifestyle, and just basically self-care practices.

And when I finished my cookbook, I realized that the thing that I kept hearing from my community—on Facebook, in my blog comments, in our inbox, and certainly back in the day, when I was coaching one-on-one, which I don’t do anymore—[that] they were having a hard time getting past some of the hang ups. It’s like what we just talked about earlier, “It’s not about the kale.” And so this book is really talking about some of the things that I think hold us back.

And hopefully it is a huge hug and it is permission to really go for it, to identify your dreams, to learn how to care for yourself, to clear up some of the dead weight that does not serve you in your life, to practice a resilient mindset, as opposed to just being resilient from time to time when you need to be resilient. Like when the shit hits the fan, we all need to be resilient. Truthfully, the shit is hitting the fan every day in little ways in our life. And a lot of times, we’re pushing that into our body, into our tissues, into our psyche. How can we shift that?

So I’m talking about a lot of those things. The book is baking right now. [These are] very early days, so this is where I am right now. When it comes out, it will be maybe in a different place. I’ve only written one chapter. But I’ve been writing this book for years in my head. And right now the subtitle—and again, this may not even be the one that ends up being the subtitle when it’s published—is Lessons in Ferocious Self-Love and Resilience. And it’s a lot of my journey. It is part memoir. It’s part memoir as well.

CP: Well, you know, it’s interesting because resilience can mean a lot of thing for different people, and especially in the feminine/masculine space, it holds different energy. So in the masculine space, resilience is really pushing through and there’s a lot to be said for that, for being strong and the battle of cancer, so to speak, or the battle of whatever it is. All that language is more about the sort of masculine version of resiliency, which is a component and we need that. But when I hear you talk, a lot of resiliency has more of a yielding quality to it. And I’m wondering if that is more of the feminine coming in.

KC: I think that is probably true. The times when I have had to go deep inside to make a very serious decision, one of those was when the first doctor suggested a triple organ transplant. I had to go inside and make some very serious decisions. I didn’t have people to guide me. I didn’t have coaches who understood this sarcoma thing. That’s a silly idea. I had to stop. I had to stop and get very still and very, very connected to what I think should happen. I had to make that call. That didn’t happen from being type A aggressive. That happened from going inside and really looking at the truth of the situation.

And I think so often, we are kind of pushed to be really aggressive and to really be, as you say, strong. And we get confused about where that strength comes from. Strength does not come from us doing and going—though sometimes we need to do and we need to go, right? Strength comes from our intuition, from being, from going inside, from allowing yourself to even go into your own womb and rejuvenate, recover, get a hit, get some more energy before you go out there to do what you need to do. And that’s a dance. It’s not a formula. There’s no trademarked TM marketed solution for this.

CP: Right. Have you ever—in your past or now, do you find yourself sort of suppressing your feminine side in order to get something done or attain success?

KC: Sure, all the time. And then I’m reminded that’s a dumb idea.

CP: Right! [Laughs]

KC: [Laughs] That I screwed something up, big time. And I have to go back and say, “I’m sorry I’m disappointing everybody, but I overcommitted once again, la, la, la.” And again, this is not about saying, “I’m just going to sit around and eat bon-bons.” But it is about saying, “I’m going to do great work in the world while also nurturing myself. Because if I don’t take care of myself, my ideas suck, and so does my energy.” How am I going to make a suggestion to change something that would be useful to humanity if I’m so damned deleted I got nothing? And how am I going to water my relationship as well? It’s not just about the work I do in the world. It’s the work I do in the home!

CP: Of course, which is ultimately the same work, is it not?

KC: Yes. Sure is. It’s a microcosm right there.

CP: Well, especially as you’re going into this new book, which is not the green drink, you know? It’s something more than that, which sounds like precisely what you’re doing in the home. Like your internal, more of that mental/emotional vitality that you were talking about. It’s coming from a different place. There seems to be another source for that.

KC: I think so. And a lot of that source is just being more mindful, making sure that I’m balancing it. I’ve written books and they’ve been New York Times bestsellers, and people have changed their lives, and I’ve been depleted and my marriage needs help. What is going on? I don’t want to work from that place.

And so I think—I’m obviously very, very candid, and I’m very transparent, but I imagine people out there listening can get a piece of this wisdom for themselves and look at their own lives and say, “Yes, I hear you. OK, let me start to put some energy in that direction.” It’s not like we have to solve everything, but we have to be mindful. Our mindfulness and our awakening to what’s going on, I think—as we know, you know, and every spiritual leader will tell you—that’s the first step.

CP: You know, it’s so interesting, this whole focus of your body being such a teacher for you, which is a very feminine thing. The body itself is just the incarnation of the feminine principle, so to speak. The feminine lives in the body. And you have something—in a weird way, it’s a gift, in that when you’re overstretching and you’re misaligned in a certain way, it seems like you’re communicated of that through your body. Your body is talking to you through this illness that you have, this disease that you have, but also it’s afforded you a very close, intimate connection with your body that develops a very deep communication. And I’m curious to see if you’re able to find other ways, or if that is the deepest wisdom, coming through the body, and is there other wisdom coming through other places? And the emotions, I feel, [are] part of the body.

KC: Well, you know, I’ve always been very connected to my body because I was a professional dancer and a performer. And I started dancing professionally pretty young, and got my first agent and came to New York at 19. Film, television, Broadway, Off-Broadway, touring, you name it. And so I’m a dancer, [and] your instrument is everything. And I can tell you, I know every single muscle, I know every part of every toe, I know where my weaknesses are, I know where my strengths are, I know where I explode on the stage in a good way, I know where I have to be a little more careful and how I can kind of fake it, you know?

So I’ve been performing in that capacity—I did that for a long time. But I didn’t know my body until I got sick. I didn’t know where my liver was! I didn’t know where my organs were. I had no idea that what I put in my mouth actually had a positive or negative effect. I knew that with alcohol and drugs. I knew that in others ways. I was like, “Yes, positive and then super negative.” [Laughs]

But it wasn’t until I actually had the experience of cancer that I got very clear on the subtlest messages that came from within—the message that I would blow off when I was younger and when it was really just about, “Is my turnout good enough? Can my leg go up to my eyeballs?” That’s how I measured myself, and what I expected of my body, I worked really hard to get. And, boy, did I get it. I wouldn’t take “no” for an answer.

So now I would say, in this time in my own spiritual development and practice, my body is still the number one teacher, but intuition is number two, and gaining traction. Intuition is right up on its tail, saying, “Hey, hey, what about me?” So that’s a big part of it.

CP: Yes, and so I guess that’s a question for me: how do you communicate with your intuition? What’s your secret power here? You seem very intuitive. That’s a big decision that you had to make, and it sounds like you made the right one. I would be like, “Oh my gosh,” you know? It’d be really hard to trust myself to make that decision. So what is it? How do you communicate with that?

KC: Well, again, this is just for me. Everybody’s got their own way, and [there are] very good teachers out there teaching this. Two things: 1) I get the hit immediately and I’m usually right. I’ll sleep on it. But I get the hit immediately and it’s a resounding “yes” or a resounding “no,” I’ll sleep on it and then if it’s still a “yes” or a “no” the next day, that’s the answer. I have a deal with myself that no matter what decision I make, I haven’t failed. I won’t fuck it up. It was a decision that needed to be made at that time, even if it kills me. So we’re good on that.

CP: That’s a big piece.

KC: Yes, it is a big piece, but it’s just easier to make that—it’s just easier, because then you don’t have to go, “Eh, eh, eh, should I?” I mean, you waste so much energy.

And then the other piece is if I’m really out to lunch and I don’t know because it is whatever is coming up in me—I spend a lot of time journaling. “What do you think? What do you want?” And almost taking myself through the writing process, just like you do with people at workshops.

I also have a core group of very strong women in my life. And my men, too. My husband in amazing. His intuition and his mind is really so solid. So between them and my core women, to get a little feedback, that will all go into the melting pot, and then the decision will come.

CP: I love what you said about giving yourself permission not to fail, because in a way, it just makes it easier for us to trust our intuition. So we’re not laying the big heavy on ourselves, like, “Oh my God, I’m going to die, or I’m going to kill somebody if I make the mistake.”

KC: Exactly! Because the truth is, we’re going to fail. We can’t see it as a failure. People who don’t actually take the risks and don’t understand that there’s so much knowledge in that “failure,” those are the ones who stay the same in business, in life, in romantic relationships, etc. I think we’ve created this world that’s so clean and appropriate, and we have to get it a little messy.

CP: Yes. So we’re getting to the end of our time, and I wanted to just touch on something, specifically about—you know, we were talking about the feminine, I’ll continue on that, and we talked about one of those things being yielding and more grace. And to carry that even further is just the ability to let things go. OK, now, that’s really hard, because I’m also type A. Letting go is something—that’s the feminine principle I’m really working on right now, letting go. And yet, as someone who’s faced stage 4 cancer and continues to face that, you really have a lot more experience with that, and I’m curious to see how that particular principle is playing out and how it’s transformed over time.

KC: You can’t let go of something all at once sometimes. Sometimes you can. Sometimes I think the idea of us letting go can make us feel very overwhelmed, because we don’t know how. And the fire is still there. The spark is still there. The whatever it is that’s in your craw is still there. And for me, it’s been about really breaking down the piece of what I need to let go, and starting to work on them in a much more bite-sized, strategic, clear way, as opposed to, “Let go of the fact that you have stage 4 cancer. And you’re probably going to die from this thing at some point. And just live your life.” Anybody would say, “Hell fucking no.” [Laughs]

So, OK, what do I need to start with? And is that really what I’m letting go of? So I think that, in some ways it’s easier for women, and in other ways it’s harder. We are multitaskers. We keep a lot of balls going. We have eyes in the back of our head and the sides of our head. We are the fierce protectors in so many ways, of our children, of our ideas, of our families. We need to do a little bit more with ourselves.

So I’m not so sure about whether or not we’re better at that. I’m not sure about that. But I do know that it’s possible to let go of what doesn’t serve us, to let go of what holds us back from our greatness, and that greatness being joy. We could just break it down [into] bite-sized chunks. And I don’t know what that looks like for everybody, but I know how to start that process for myself.

CP: I want to circle back—we’re out of time here, but I wanted to circle back to the sexy cancer question. And I just want to reflect back: I feel that your point about the sexy being powerful is something that, in your book, in your presentation about something that is decidedly not sexy, right? But presenting it that way allows, especially women, to really claim a strength that’s not like, “The battle against cancer,” or, you know, “Let me get out the battle axe and the guns.” It has a different, very feminine power to it that gives everybody permission to still be joyful and powerful and go after these challenges in a very serious way. So I just want to thank you for that.

KC: Thank you! I really appreciate that. And I love this call, Chantal.

CP: Thank you. And I’m very much looking forward to seeing you in just a couple months!

KC: Yes! Ditto.

CP: All right! Well, thank you so much, Kris.

KC: OK, bye everybody, thank you.

CP: Bye bye.

[ew-audio-download headline=”Free Audio Download” subheadline=”Power Practices, Vol. 1 Women Who Are Changing the World”]

Alanis Morissette is a Grammy Award winning singer-songwriter, guitarist, record producer and actress who has sold more than 60 million albums worldwide. Alanis was honored with the EMA Missions in Music Award for her efforts in speaking out against drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Alanis Morissette has been acting on her strong beliefs for years—and encourages her fans and listeners to do the same.

Tami Simon is the founder of Sounds True, a multimedia publishing company dedicated to disseminating spiritual wisdom. Based in Boulder, Colorado, Sounds True has published more than 800 audio, video, music, and book titles along with online courses and events. A two-time winner of the Inc 500 award as one of the fastest growing privately held companies in America, Sounds True is widely recognized as a pioneer in providing life-changing, practical tools that accelerate spiritual awakening and personal transformation.

In today’s episode Tami spoke with Alanis about:

• The balance between Yin and Yang and how this shows up in relationship
• What that would look like to put the Sacred Feminine in the center of the music industry
• Listening as an art, and not letting fear stop us from doing what we want to do
• How Alanis uses the ‘nuggets of terror’ in her journal as seeds for her creative process
• Alanis’s work with Relationship First and her love of talking with people who are ceiling-less
• And finally, how she sees the Feminine Movement moving towards Sacred Union

Tune in and listen to “The Rock and Roll of Feminine Power” with the Radical Women: Alanis Morisette and Tami Simon.

Subscribe to Grace & Fire on iTunes.

Transcript:

Alanis Morissette: Hi! I want to thank Tami for being up here with me and having a conversation with me. It’s my favorite thing to do, as my friends can attest to, is dialogue and go and back and forth and see what’s actually happening in real time with you, with us.

Tami Simon: We want to make our love public.

AM: Exactly! [Laughs] There’s nothing better than that.

TS: Exactly. Making our love public. OK, the primacy of connection. I want to start right there.

AM: Let’s go for the jugular.

TS: Well, the jugular’s going to come later.

AM: There are so many jugulars and so little time.

TS: That’s right, exactly. 

AM: That’s part of why I’m happier here.

TS: Your journey to connection, being, at least in my understanding, the most important thing for you in your life. How did you get there?

AM: I didn’t get there; I think I started there. I’m a highly sensitive temperament. I’ve become more and more obsessed with self-knowledge because I’ve seen how empowering it and how it enables me to actually have functional intimacy with people. So I’m the girl that uses every tool of divination and wants to know what number I am on the Enneagram and wants to know—I throw my I Ching coins. I basically have wanted to connect with God, intrapersonally with my own self and with people my whole life. 

[It’s] to the point where, because of my hypersensitivity, when it doesn’t happen, in glimpses at grocery stores or wherever I am, it’s actually quite devastating for me. And I take responsibility for it and I don’t get upset at the woman who looks away when she’s trying to buy her watermelons. 

[Audience laughs]

AM: But I hurt. So I don’t know if that answers your question.

TS: Are there things that you do to invite or to magnetize to you the kind of connection that, as a sensitive person, really nourishes you? Is there stuff that you do, and what is it?

AM: I think it happens by default. I find that whatever energy I walk into a room with, the kismet like-mindeds find each other eventually. It doesn’t always happen, and sometimes I just people watch as a Canadian. Culturally—I’m going to do the broad stroke, which is a terribly violent thing to do but I’ll do it anyway—Canadians are very conversational, dialogical, and really great at people watching. We also snap when we’re pushed too far. [Laughs] Which has served my art, but not necessarily my personal life.

[Audience laughs]

AM: So I don’t even know if that answers your question! Sorry, Tami. But you just asked what I do to foster the connection? OK, fostering the connection.

TS: And then what you’ve learned over the last decade as you’ve been able to—it’s a strong statement to say, “Connection is the primary feel that I’m looking for in life.” That’s a strong statement. So I wonder how you orient around that in order to receive that type of nourishment and to make that type of bond with people.

AM: Thanks, yes. It’s a spiritual idea for me, because I’ve always felt profoundly connected with God, and I know that word is—

TS: I like that word. It’s fine with me.

AM: You like the word? OK, good.

TS: I mean, we can substitute a bunch of other words—

AM: There are so many beautiful words! Let’s just use “God.”

TS: Yes.

[Audience laughs]

AM: [Laughs] I’ve always loved God so much. [I was] raised Catholic, and even within a lot of that intensity, I still found God. I found God in Jesus, I found God in a lot of the parables. I found God everywhere. In the music—that was the first time I actually knew that I could sing. Someone turned around—I think I was 10 years old and I was singing at the top of my lungs the St. Francis of Assisi song. And my brothers had told me I couldn’t sing to save my life, which I believed, because they’re my brothers. And then this woman turned around and she said, [whispers] “You have a lovely voice.” “Really? Thanks!” So that was a turning point. But I think because I know on a very cellular, existential level how connected I am with everything and everyone, when there is this illusion of separation, it kills me.

TS: Now, I’ve heard you talk about connection in terms of connection to yourself, connection to other people, and also connection to spirit. But that, in your experience, that’s actually one thing, kind of. Can you explain what you mean by that? How is it “kind of one thing”?

AM: Well, I think the idea of relationship that is so enticing to me is that it speaks to what I believe is the fundamental truth of what’s actually going on here, which is—I know I’m not telling you anything that you don’t know.

TS: No, I do want you to tell me what’s actually going on here. Please tell me.

AM: Oh, really? OK! [Laughs]

[Audience laughs]

AM: OK, good.

TS: Tell all of us! Exactly.

AM: I just really feel this profound interconnectivity, for lack of a better term. So I was going to answer—

TS: How it’s all one thing.

AM: How it’s all one thing.

TS: All of these three kinds of connection.

AM: It’s that we’re all one fabric. In my mind, we’re all these unique filters. This transmission, or source, or God, or inspiration, or intuition is coursing through us in what I believe is in various speeds. I think some of us have energy coursing through us in a way that’s overwhelming. I think of Jimi Hendrix and I think he had so much energy coursing through him, and I’m not sure he had a way to calibrate it. I don’t know, I didn’t talk with him. 

TS: You have quite a bit of energy coursing through you.

AM: [Laughs] Yes! And I have to be responsible with it and for it, to be honest, because it can be overwhelming in relationships. I can be quite a bother to people because this is the energy that I walk into a room with, and it can be overwhelming for people. It can be exciting for people. It’s exciting for my husband; it was horrifying for all my ex-boyfriends.

[Audience laughs]

AM: Which is true. And for a long time I shamed myself saying that there was something wrong with me, that I was too much, or I was too intense, or I was too emotional, or I was too sensitive, or fill in the blank. And that’s all true, but it really just meant that there was a lens that I was looking through at this funny and harrowing and sweet little life, that I was looking for compatibility. 

I write about it in “All I Really Want,” which Chantal referenced—the idea of wanting to have that cosmic giggle with people, to look at people I love and just say, “Isn’t it crazy being here? Isn’t it intense? Isn’t it so sad that our traumas have us completely check out of our bodies and check out of our relationships and do drugs and we’re dying to crawl back into the womb and we can’t?” I just love having those kinds of conversations with people. [Laughs] And I actually have them now, with you as well. Thank you, Tami.

TS: Yes. Now, you’re talking about your current man and your ex-boyfriends. You’ve made this statement: “I declare I am an alpha woman.”

AM: Yes, I have.

TS: And that this was an important claiming, “alpha woman.” It’s a strong, strong two words to put together like that. What do you mean by it?

AM: I mean that I have masculine qualities, and that I err on the side—maybe not always aesthetically, although sometimes—of really enjoying androgyny. I love the idea of having access to the whole range of what it is to be human while taking into account the physiologically, biochemically, I am a woman. So I get to have all the amazing aspects of being a woman—and there are so many. I mean, my shoes alone are reason enough to want to be a woman.

[Audience laughs and cheers]

TS: Maybe just lift your foot a little bit so we can get a good look at that. 

[Audience cheers]

TS: I like mine, also. 

AM: [Laughs]

TS: They have their own sort of androgyny, as well.

[Audience applauds]

AM: Those are Landons.

TS: Yes. Exactly.

[Audience laughs]

AM: So androgyny’s been great. I’ve actually updated the alpha woman comment, because I think a lot of people, mostly men, where a little freaked out when I would say that. Because I think they may have interpreted [it] as my saying I want to be the man and [have] this men/woman/gender conversation. So first I attempted to take this conversation out of gender and take it into the feminine and the masculine. And that continued to piss people off. So now I basically say “yin” and “yang.” That pisses a lot less people off.

[Audience laughs]

TS: So how do you translate, then, the “alpha woman” phrase into “yin/yang” language?

AM: I can be quite yang. And that would mean, in theory, that if there is to be some sort of compliment in my marriage, in this case, that there’s a lot of negotiation. There are moments where I’ll jump in the car and I’ll go, “You got this.” Or we’ll be driving and I’ll stop the car and I’ll say, “You’re driving.” And he’ll go, “Got it.” We’re constantly negotiating who’s going to be the yin or the yang person of the moment, depending upon our stress levels, PMS—there [are] all kinds of considerations.

[Audience laughs]

AM: They’re in the Shakti woman book—forgive me for not knowing the author’s name. There’s this one paragraph where they talked about how in this particular village, in the days of old, the village people would seek out the women who were PMSing in order to have them make decisions about the village because they were in the perfect place to have an opinion without worrying about mincing words. I was like, “I love this book!”

[Audience laughs]

AM: And I think ultimately—and I talked about this briefly last night at the get-together that we had with somebody—the idea of, for a long time, that this whole emergence of the divine feminine being a huge conversation, and at long last, obviously, my whole thought about the yin/yang androgyny whole continuum—I think in terms of continuums all the time. The whole idea in my mind at this point—and I might update this next month, but who cares?

TS: Even tomorrow would be OK.

AM: Whatever. In an hour, yes. The masculine and the feminine energies within both men and women alike are serving the feminine. So it’s not that men have to debase or emasculate themselves or be emasculated. Of course there’s rage and anger, as there should be. There’s been so much oppression, and not only do we feel it in our own lives in the context of patriarchy, we also feel it in the context of our grandmothers and great-grandmothers. 

So when women are angry and they’re scared of emasculating, I get it. Just make some arrangement with your man where he can hold the bucket for 20 minutes and just listen to your rage and hopefully not personalize it singularly about him. Because we’re all subject to the context that we find ourselves in, and patriarchy is still alive and well in the rock ‘n’ roll business, I’m assuming in the book world—I’m about to find out, I’m writing a book. In a lot of context that I go in, it’s still there, totally shifting, which is the great news. 

And I think what I’m excited about so much these days is supporting the divine masculine to continue to provide and to continue to protect, but the currency of the provision has changed. So instead of just bringing home the vegan bacon, they’re also providing empathy and listening and all of these things that they’re actually not physiologically predisposed to being able to do well, and that we’re teaching each other how to do it. If someone doesn’t have the capacity to empathize, there’s probably a trauma somewhere in the background that happened that made it so that—not unlike when someone steps on your toe, the first thing you say isn’t usually like, “Is your shoe OK?” It’s usually, “Get the fuck off my foot, you’re killing me!” [Laughs] 

So when we’re traumatized, we don’t always have that generosity of spirit, which I believe is what men are known for. Men, in my mind, are known for providing and protecting, and that currency is broadening and becoming larger and larger. And the masculine within us as women—because you and I are pretty protective of the people we love in general. These qualities of masculinity and femininity can show up not only in both genders, but in different context, case by case, depending upon what you need to call upon.

TS: Now, you talked about the music business and the publishing business. I’m curious—let’s just go right into the music business, because as an artist, you are also, in a sense, a businesswoman. 

AM: Yes.

TS: You are, just by being part of the music industry. Putting at the center of the music business the sacred feminine, what would that look like? The little bit I know of the music business, it seems that it’s a difficult business that doesn’t usually support artists fully in the way that they want. So what would it mean to put the sacred feminine, your divine feminine, at the center of the music industry, as an example of the transformation of society? Let’s take that industry.

AM: Nice, thanks. Well, first of all, I think that what’s happened even in today’s day is that the values of the West—which, ultimately, is basically the planet almost at this point, if not entirely—fame, wealth, and staying 16 forever visually. So when I look at what’s on stage right now, I also see young women who are not in a position of wanting to be responsible for being a model to the millions of people and to leading the charge and to leading the cavalry home to divine union. 

So they’re experimenting with their sexuality in a context, certainly, of North America, probably more so even the rest of the planet as well, of sexual trauma. We’re a sexually traumatized culture in my mind. And when I’m 17 or 19, and I have the kind of body that society approves of—and I don’t have to name names, we just have to look at pop culture right now, and everybody’s doing it. So I feel like it’s a response to this pornographic, sexually traumatized culture that we live in, and that has now become the definition of what the divine feminine is, that there’s a conversation around the empowered feminine being singular in our sexuality acting out or just being sexual. 

So I think, to answer your question about what the divine feminine might look like in the epicenter of what is a bit of a shit storm sometimes, which is the music industry, it’s to play with the whole range. In a moment where I’m on a conference call with 25 people and it’s appropriate for me to set a boundary, I’ll set it, risking that I’ll be called a “bitch.” If I’m in a deposition, which I was in, and I start crying because it’s too much for me, that’s my divine feminine coming through. 

So for me to be as authentic as possible in every moment, while being responsible for being politically considerate—

TS: You’re Canadian, after all.

AM: I’m Canadian! I like social grace. I actually think there’s something to be said for social grace and etiquette and manners. And then there’s also something to be said for setting boundaries. But I think if there’s anything that I would want to offer to not only the industry—that might be audacious to say—but to any young woman who’s in the epicenter of the eye of the storm of fame right now, it’s let that sexuality—the healthy and maybe even the unhealthy version, because it’s all out there—integrate it. Let the spirit and the brain and the somatic and the body and the fear and the feelings and the rage and the authenticity and the connectivity and the pain of disconnection and your sexuality and the break-up and the drama and the “so, no drama? So, boring”—let it all combine together and then write. It would turn the industry on its ass, I think. 

But then what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Is the music industry evidencing what’s going on in our consciousness? Or is our consciousness dictating what we want to see on MTV? Probably both.

TS: Now, you talk about how you have—and you use this word, and I think it’s a powerful word—an imperative to create as a person, that there’s something in you that’s an imperative. So talk about that, what that feels like inside you, this imperative.

AM: Yes. If I’m not expressed, I’m very depressed, basically. 

TS: Are there sort of two—is there the expressed, depressed?

AM: Pretty much. And that could be in an email, it could be what we’re doing right now. Being expressed is also picking the florescent pink t-shirt, cooking and putting some weird ingredient in that you don’t tell your family about.

[Audience laughs]

AM: So being expressed doesn’t necessarily mean that I’m singing or writing a song or writing a poem or whatever it is. But just that the energy is moving, and it’s the energy that we talked about a few minutes ago, about having to be responsible not only for the energy moving, but for the pace with which it moves. So for me, it moves so quickly that if I don’t tend to it every day—it’s kind of like eating. If I don’t write or if I don’t chitchat or if I don’t listen, which is another form of art to me, or if I don’t have some kind of connection going on, I spiral downward pretty quickly.

TS: Now, listening as a form of art—that caught my attention, as someone who listens and loves to listen.

AM: You’re amazing at it.

TS: But you don’t normally hear people talk about that as an art form. If expressed is coming out, how is listening a form of art?

AM: Well, I think the whole monological approach that North America can sometimes take is dangerous because there’s really not a lot of connectivity going on in there. So for me, dialogue and relationship—I’m obsessed with it. So listening is 50 percent of the equation, and there is an art to it. You know it. You’re doing it right now.

TS: I’m expressing my listening. I’m expressing it.

AM: You are. Right. But I don’t think you would continue doing what you’re doing if there wasn’t some artistic payoff to being an amazing listener. And for me there is. I live to listen. When I first moved to Los Angeles, culturally speaking, from Canada to America, it was actually quick shocking because I think there may be a perception that there aren’t a ton of differences. But one of the differences was in Canada, everything is dependent upon dialogue and conversation, which is also part of the reason why I’m loving this right now. 

So when I moved to Los Angeles, everyone was sharing and there was a lot of sending and a lot of monologisms, and I didn’t speak for six months. And I met thousands of people. And I just thought, “I have to become more American. I have to speak and speak when it’s not solicited.” But there’s a quality of listening that I enjoy speaking to, and when that quality’s not there, I’d rather just watch people.

TS: Now, this feeling of needing to be self-expressed, in whatever form it takes, I can imagine that many people relate to that sense of something inside that’s needed regularly or else something like a depression, deflation will happen. But yet for many of us, something keeps us held back, some fear, some sense of, “What if that secret ingredient I put in the recipe that I’m making actually ruins it, so I won’t.” So a lot of holding back. And I’m curious what you would say to that person who’s listening right now and says, “Yes, I see myself hold back all the time.” How can Alanis help that person?

AM: Well, the first thing I would say if I had the privilege of sitting across one-on-one would be, “Well, tell me more about that. What is the fear? Is the fear that if I speak out, I might risk becoming successful, and then if I’m successful I’ll be lonely and isolated and sad?” That’s true. You will.

[Audience laughs]

TS: I don’t buy it.

AM: [Laughs] Well, I don’t buy it now. But that’s just one part of the equation. But there’s all kinds of other parts that are really, really, really fun about stepping out. And stepping out isn’t just this one version. For a long time, I would hear people say, “Step out and be huge,” and that’s just way too much pressure. What if one’s vocational calling was really tiny? Nurses, teachers, doctors, mothers. Why does everyone have to be Martin Luther King? Why do we all have to be Nelson Mandela? And we love those people, but we’re all contributing in unique, different, varied ways on the whole range of what it is to serve. And so the private, quiet, tiny servings are so generous. 

So if I were to be speaking with someone about what might hold them back from being expressed, I would just hold their hand, not unlike what you just did with me, and say, “Well, what do you want to express? What do you love? What gets you going? If you had three days off and someone gave you 25 million dollars to play with, and you couldn’t spend it on responsible things, what would you do?” Someone might say, “I might make cocktails.” Or, “I might garden.” How many friends do I have who are dying to garden? Garden! 

There’s this pressure we put on ourselves, I think, in this era, as women especially, that our empowered feminine force has to show up as something huge. And I’m one to talk, because mine actually did personally show up as something huge, but my biggest moments and junctures and seminal moments for me have been very personal, and often alone or with my husband or with my son or with my therapist. My team of therapists. [Laughs]

TS: It takes a village.

AM: It takes a village of therapists! 

[Audience laughs]

TS: You’re in Boulder, you’re in a good village of therapists.

AM: OK, you all have your teams. [Laughs] It does take a team.

TS: So here you are, you’re talking to someone who might have a sense of being afraid, some version of fear. One of the things I read was you were talking in Runner’s World about running marathons, and the interviewer asked you, “Do you ever feel afraid before a marathon?” And you said, “I never let fear stop me.” And I thought that was a strong statement. So yes, you had fear about the marathon that was coming up, but you wouldn’t let the fear stop you. And I wonder if you could talk about that, how, when you feel fear, you relate to it.

AM: I feel fear all the time. I feel fear right now. I’m always anxious. I’m either anxious or depressed or happy or sort of floating in consciousness, sometimes all in the span of a minute. So I think there was an element of having had two brothers as a kid that made it so I had to be counterintuitive with my fear, or I was going to be left out. So I had to jump off that cliff. I had to go snowboarding. I had to run really, really quickly to catch up to them. And I’m a connection girl, so I wanted to connect, so I was willing to push through fear.

So it started out maybe pathological, and then it turned into, “Wow, there’s actually a huge payoff to stepping forward, even in the face of fear. And being transparent around it.” Just saying, “Wow, OK, I’m really nervous, my mouth is dry, my neck is tense, it’s getting really somatic and in the body, I can’t feel my feet, they’re cold, my hands are cold. And here I am.”

TS: Could you think of any examples in your life where you have let fear stop you?

AM: I am a recovering codependent love addict, work-addicted person, so—

[Audience laughs and applauds]

AM: So I can say, probably, I’ve participated in the disassembling of relationships singularly based on fear non-stop. I think fear stops me a lot, but I’m counterintuitive enough with it that I have enough fun experiences. But there’s fear, always.

TS: Now, I’ve done quite a bit of reading, as you can tell, about you, Alanis—

AM: You are Charlie Rose!

TS: That’s right, that’s right. And one of the things I read—and correct me, of course, if any of this is wrong—is that as part of your songwriting process, you’ll actually look in your journals for the places of terror and find those nuggets of terror and go into them and pull them out as a potential seed for a song. And I thought that was actually so interesting and intelligent. Because so often, if we’re afraid of something, that’s what we push away. And here you are, and you’re using it as actually the seed of a creative process. I wonder if you can talk about that.

AM: There’s something about that visceral response of fear or anger or love—so basically passion writes songs for me. So I can be passionately terrified and I’ll go right to that. Or a lot of unspoken things, like, again, the Canadian cultural predisposition to not speaking often makes it, for me, to have felt liberated in the studio alone with my instruments to say exactly what I wanted to say. 

And the challenge became, “How can I blend the so-called courage that I’m evidencing in this songwriting process”—and even in the performing of it, I suppose, on some level, although I can hide behind sweaty, glittery, loud, noisy things, so there is still a protection in that. But how can I blend the courage that I am applying in the writing of these words to my day-to-day life, because there really was a disparity for a long time, and there still is.

So really the journey is about blending that courage, so that when people meet me, they don’t think, “Wow, who’s that girl versus this girl?” And certainly they’re all aspects of me, but the invitation for me, with my own art, is to apply that courage.

And the other thing I wanted to say about that as well was that there is an erroneous message, I think, out there that art and the process of creating is very, very healing and therapeutic. And I don’t think it is. I think it’s cathartic. It moves energy. But there are certain songs, one of which is “You Oughta Know,” where I have sung that song countless times on stage, and if I were to run into that person right now, I would feel horrified.

 So it goes to say that in my mind, healing happens in relationship. Growth happens when we try on new behaviors because our partner asked us to do something different because we’re driving them crazy. Healing happens when your partner changes a behavior in order to take care of some part of you that has been left alone. So art, while it is beautiful and messy and sweaty and lovely, and there is that element of the gratification of being expressed, it has not always been healing for me, unless there is a relationship in it. Relationships, for me, are the healing balm.

TS: Maybe you could tell me a little bit more of what you mean by “healing.”

AM: Healing is the return to the original wholeness and original truth of what we are, that innate goodness, the one thing that is not subject to dualism, the one thing in this funny little playground that is life that is not subject to being good or bad. 

I worked for many years with Debbie Ford, and she’s been a great teacher for me throughout my life. So [I was] doing a ton of work where I would embrace all these aspects of self, where I’m a murderer and I’m jealous and I’m envious and I’m hateful, and then equally that I’m a vision and I’m kind and I’m an angel. So I was working on all this, and where I got stumped, time and again, was the good and the bad. So I could embrace that I was good. Then when it came to, “I have to embrace that I’m innately bad,” I just couldn’t do it. And I’m pretty open. Like when my friends are challenging me, I’m pretty open to taking feedback that is hard to hear.

TS: So you could embrace—just to make sure I’m tracking with you—the idea that you’re a murderer, but the idea that you were innately bad—

AM: Or that I’m murderous. I have that part of me that just wants to punch someone in the nuts. I have that in me. I don’t do it. Yet. No, I don’t do it, but it’s in me. And so the bad part was a little confusing. So to speak to what you just posed, it’s because it’s not true. There’s no such thing as a bad seed, in my mind. So that is the unembraceable one. That is the one part that is not subject to relativity, duality, and it is the cosmic consciousness. It is the truth of who we are. It is the life stream that courses through us—all these beautiful words that so many amazing teachers have shared over the years.

So how did that speak to what you just asked? What did you just ask?

TS: Because, really, what you’re talking about is healing, and what is healing?

AM: Healing is returning to that.

TS: And that doesn’t happen for you only through your art. Your artistic process would not be sufficient for you to generate healing.

AM: No way. I feel the connection with God. I feel, for lack of a better term, like I’m channeling or like something’s moving through me and that I’m just being used, and all those beautiful definitions of creating art. But the healing of the return to the essential core self of who we are—so there’s the innate consciousness God part of us, in my mind. And Margaret Paul is here, [who has a] beautiful teaching on inner bonding, about God, the inner-loving adult parent that we can develop as we mature and as we heal, actually. And then the core essential self, the part that you’ve just always known you’ve wanted to be an aesthetician, since you were two. Or you’ve just always known that you loved cooking or that you loved skiing or that you loved building buildings. And then [there’s] this wounded child part.

So this core essential self, for me, my responsibility—and I’m not always responsible around it. Definitely not. But tuning to that as best as I possibly can, for it to lead me. We can call it intuition, we can call it talking to my inner child, we can talk about it being this essential self being expressed. So it’s when all of these are in harmony—the connection with God; my connection with being expressed; being responsible for the energy; knowing the truth of my innate, eternal, impermanent goodness; knowing that we’re in this wild playground that is really sensual and has a lot of pleasure and a lot of pain—and somehow being equanimous with that idea is, for me, healing. 

A lot of it has to do with touch in my particular story, too. Being held. We’re in a society that if you touch each other, it’s sexual harassment and you’re being inappropriate. And yes, of course, sometimes people are doing that. But a lot of times, we just want to put our hands on each other. And that, I think, is deeply healing on a cellular, neurobiological, biochemical, heart/soul level.

TS: And fitting with your real heart investment in healing, in your own life, and with this profound definition that you’re offering, I know that you’re quite involved in a movement that’s called Relationships First. And I wonder if you can talk [about] what that is and why you are lending your energy to it.

AM: Yes, it’s an organization that I cofounded with Harville Hendrix and Helen LaKelly Hunt, John and Julie Gottman, Dan Siegel and Diane Ackerman, and many others. Marion Soloman. And basically, we all came together because we’re obsessed with relationship. It’s called RelationshipsFirst.org. We’re doing a soft launch at the end of the year. 

And the begged question is, “What would happen if you put your relationships first?” And this also includes, in my mind, colleagues. What if your relationship and the climate of your interactivity and the functionality of it in your work environment was more important than the bottom line? What if my marriage and what if my son, what if my friendships—which is a big one for me these days—what if they were the most important thing in my life? What would life look like?

I’m realizing that it just looks better and better the more I prioritize that. To me, that’s the ultimate divine feminine approach, honoring and nurturing and being an active participant, but even just an active protectress of my loved ones’ healing [processes]. The only reason I’m here is to heal, to support you in your healing, and to actively participate in that. And you are going to tell me what that looks like, because if I project onto you what I think you want, there’s a level of self-absorption and narcissism and projection onto you. And my imagination is that you wouldn’t feel very loved. 

But that I would go by what my loved ones ask of me, what they request of me. And if they’re complaining and being really cruel, when I have my wits about me I’ll say, “Is there a request?” When I’m in an argument with my husband, we’re pretty quick to go, “Request?”

[Audience laughs]

AM: So that’s basically how we do it.

TS: Have you had to change the way your life is structured, with all of the demands and being the fabulous rock star, to put relationships first? How have you actually done that in an operational way in your life?

AM: The good news about my lifestyle over the years is that it’s been incredibly communal. So going on tour surrounded by 50 to 100 people—although being a boss has an energetic of a tiny bit of separation. And the boundaries that are required to be an effective boss, I think, are really valuable. So I would tolerate a little bit of that separation for that reason, because it keeps the whole machine running really smoothly. But communalism is huge, to be around humans. 

But how to prioritize relationship? I think I went after all the candy. I went after the fame and the awards, and, “OK, now I’ve got that. Now I’m going to be a marathon runner.” And I did that for charity, and that’s cool. And now I’m a charity person. That’s awesome. But I just kept going and checking on the list all the things that I thought that if I did that, or if I achieved that, it would give me peace. Because ultimately I’m always just chasing peace.

And then instead of all that time chasing the thing that will give me peace, there were actually ways for me to come from peace. And relationship, for me, is the way to do that. I can’t see parts of myself. Whether I was mirrored well in that stage of development in my life or not, doesn’t matter. I can’t see myself, and even a mirror doesn’t help me enough. Even though Louise Hay, God bless you, I love the mirror work, and it does definitely bring the vibration up, I still need other [ways].

And there was this big movement in the feminist movement, totally understandably, of men went off to war, women stepped in, “We can do everything men can do, maybe we can do it better,” which is funny. So that’s awesome, and that was a delightful and important link in the chain. But as Dr. Pat Allen says a lot, the feminist movement brought us power, and it did bring us this sense of competence, but it didn’t bring us love.

And so it’s the big, I think dangerous movement of autonomy in the world. So it really just separated us even more. “I don’t need anybody. I can do this on my own.” But even therapy is relational. And even the therapeutic movement is moving more toward more disclosure on behalf of the therapist, and more compassion, more connectivity, versus just clipboard, lie down, “I can’t look at you.” Which is—I love analysis in that way, too, it’s really cool. I just want to tie that bow.

So, autonomy. So the movement went into this autonomous place—again, a very important link in the chain, in my mind, but lonely and disconnective. And now what’s happening is that it’s becoming hip again to be dependent. Not codependent, although we all have our wounds and they all show up in different ways. But interdependent. It’s OK to need each other. Of course we need each other! We need each other for touch and eye contact and love and sex and food and care and concern and interest and conversation. 

So how can relationship not be important to me? I don’t think I would be alive if I just kept going down the trajectory of wanting to grab all the brass rings and eat them. It becomes hollow, and a lot of people were upset when I would say that, because they didn’t want to hear it, because they were still on the ambitious journey. They didn’t want me to be sharing anything disillusioning for them. So I did start shutting up around that a little bit.

TS: You have this quote here about being famous, and you say, “Only traumatized people want to be famous. It won’t raise your self-esteem. It won’t create profound connection. It’s not going to heal your childhood traumas. You’re going to be subject to a lot of criticism and praise, both of which are violent in their own ways.”

AM: Amen! [Laughs]

[Audience applauds] 

TS: I did think, as I read that, how is it that praise—I know you said you’re a very sensitive person, but how is praise something you experience as a type of violence?

AM: Well, there’s praise projecting of the light qualities onto me, to the point where sometimes I don’t feel seen. And then what I would do with a lot of unsolicited feedback is that I would say, “Does this feel accurate?” So if I would read something that said I looked like the Elephant Man, which I did, on stage—hopefully not right now, but it doesn’t matter, because I’ve done my work— [Laughs]

[Audience cheers]

AM: So I would just say, if it hurts, if what I read hurts, I would say, “What is it about this thing that is being spoken about around me that hurts?” It could be that it’s some aspect of me that I’ve fragmented off and I don’t want to think about. So I’ll do some integrative work around that. 

It could also just hurt because it feels like I’m being missed. And being mirrored as a child, I think, is such a big deal, when we can look at the children and say, “Yes, you are Spiderman! Yes, you are so strong, so big!” All of that stuff is so huge. And I’ve spent 30 years trying to figure out that I actually exist. And I heard Gangaji talk about that once, and I don’t even know if it’s the same example that we’re talking about, but this sense of floating. On a certain spiritual level, it actually is a portal into the spiritual approach because that floating, non-identity thing is what a lot of us aspire to in the spiritual journey. The unfortunate part is that the psychological egoic part is actually important for me to have fleshed out enough to be able to interact in the world. So it made for some trouble in that area. And I don’t know—

TS: One of the things that we were talking about last night had to do—and I think it’s related to this topic of praise and blame—[with] your experience of people’s envy, and how terribly painful you experienced that. And I’d be curious of you could talk about that, but also, what you might say to people who have a moment where they do feel envious. They might feel envious of someone they’ve seen on stage here at Emerging Women. “I wish I had that. I wish I could talk like that, dance like that.”

AM: That’s not envy, though.

TS: What is that?

AM: That’s jealousy, which is precious.

TS: Oh!

AM: I think jealousy’s precious. I’m jealous all the time. And Debbie Ford, a sweet woman, basically said, “Take whatever you’re jealous about, write it down, and just foster that in your own life.” So if someone like’s my hair, just go get the shiny project to put in your hair and don’t worry about it. Just wear a wig!

[Audience laughs]

AM: But I think jealousy is sweet because it also shows us a part of ourselves that we want to have take form. It’s previous. Envy, on the other hand, is hate, and it wants to spoil and kill and hurt and make it go away. And that hurts. 

So have fun with jealousy, and just make it work for you. When I’m jealous of someone, if I see something that someone’s doing or something someone cooked, I’m just like, “I want to make that cookbook.” Then I’ll just say, “Well, go make a cookbook. Let’s do it.” I’m trying to think about my own hostility and my own hate. That’s another conversation altogether, I’ll write about it in a song.

So I think that distinction is really important, because there’s a lot of shame—I have felt shame, over the years, when I’ve been jealous of people, but it’s because I couldn’t make my jealousy work for me yet. And once it started working for me, I was like, “Oh, this is great!” But the danger in relationships, and I’ve had some challenge around this, is when that hostility and that hate is just being hurtled toward me a lot. And it definitely hurts, because it’s the ultimate disconnect. I mean, hate is the opposite of connectivity. And it’s also an illusion. 

So that beautiful quality—it might have been Thich Nhat Hahn that talked about that beautiful quality of being really, really happy for another. It was Jack Kornfield, the other day. He spoke with Dan Siegel at UCLA. He was just talking about that beautiful quality of being happy for another. And he probably had a couple of really gorgeous words that he used to illustrate it, but that quality really requires, “If I’m going to be happy for your success, there has to be a connection here.” 

So when that hostility and that envy happens, there’s a big fragment, there’s a big trauma. And that quality of inquiry that you seem to live by so gorgeously—I love inquiry, I love curiosity. It’s the antidote to violence to me. When there’s some violence here, if I can just shift the mechanism a tiny bit to get curious, everything changes. It gets really loving and warm and feminine and soft. And quite wise, too, because all these parts that are really angry and really violent have so much to say.

TS: Now, there’s a word that I heard you introduce in describing how you like to talk to people who are “ceiling-less.” That’s an interesting word, and I’m curious what you mean by “ceiling-less” and how you experience that both in yourself and in other people.

AM: It’s very selfish, basically. I love the quality of this between that is between us. There’s been a lot of talk about joining the conversation, or starting the conversation, or catapulting the conversation. For me, the conversation is serpentine. It can go into psychology, then it can go into nail polish, then it can go into conflict with partner, then it can go into consciousness, then it can go into, “What was Timothy Leary talking about?” And it just goes all over the place. 

When I reach someone’s ceiling—perhaps it’s [that] their capacity for intimacy gets smacked, or their capacity for vulnerability gets smacked, or sometimes it’s intellectualism. Howard Gardner talks about the nine intelligences. Sometimes I just meet someone who really isn’t that interested in talking about or calling upon that particular form of intelligence, so we’ll hit a ceiling. So when I have an interaction with people where there’s a ceiling-lessness, I’m totally in love. I just want to put my pajamas on and sleep on the floor right there.

TS: Well, we’re removing the ceiling from this room right now, invisibly. I want to circle back to your songwriting process. You’ve mentioned in several interviews [that in] 30 to 40 minutes, the song just comes out, and here today you used the word “channeling,” that it’s a type of channeling process for you, whatever people think of the word. What I’m curious about is, what’s going on for you? And if something’s coming through, do you have a sense that you’re connected to a being, just the mystery as a whole? What’s happening? What’s your understanding of that process?

AM: Sometimes it’s a spirit guide. But when it’s music, it’s almost like these faculties and these God-given gifts that I was given are just being used by the life force. And it’s careening through, and these words—because I love the English language and I slaughter it sometimes and I malapropism myself all over the place. But I love words. I love making up words. So that faculty, that capacity, is being used. Howard Gardner calls it the linguistic intelligence.

So I’m just having that part used, not unlike scientists and dancers and pole vaulters. That just have that talent, and sometimes their beleaguered by their own talent. And everyone in this room has 1 or 20 talents. Geminis, for some reason, when I talk to Geminis, they have so many they’re just bothered by them.

[Audience laughs]

AM: Any Geminis in here?

[Audience cheers]

AM: Is that your experience? Oh, it bothers me all the time. It’s over-option paralysis sometimes. And not to say that we’re the greatest fill-in-the-blank of all time, but it’s multiple talents, multiple hyphenate, all of it.

So you asked, a second ago—

[Audience laughs]

TS: What you might be channeling. What or who, and what that process is like. What’s it feel like in your body? A song is about to come. Each of these songs, 30 to 40 minutes, that’s it. I mean, that’s amazing!

AM: Thanks.

TS: I mean, it’s clearly non-conceptually delivered.

AM: Non-conceptually, but it is syphoned through the intellect. So there’s something to be said for that. It’s not unlike—I think we all know what it is to have this energy channel through us. It’s like writing an email. “I’ve just got to send this quick email, I’ll be right out.” That’s what it feels like.

[Audience laughs]

AM: You know what it’s like to write a really quick email?

TS: Yes, I do.

AM: I know you do! So it’s that feeling.

[Audience laughs and cheers]

TS: It’s awe. I feel awe when I hear that. It’s just awesome.

AM: Cool. That’s great. 

[Audience laughs]

AM: That’s awesome! I think that way when I see people draw. I have so many non-talents that when I see other people have them, I have that. So that’s why I just said it’s great, because I understand. You say, “What does it feel like in the body?” It’s pretty stressful. It’s not my favorite thing. I don’t like writing. I’d much rather just eat a sandwich and go watch a movie.

[Audience laughs]

AM: And sometimes I do. But I’m writing a book right now, and that is just awful.

[Audience laughs]

AM: I hate it. It’s the worst.

TS: But when a song/email is about to come through you, do you have a sense of, kind of like, “I need to go to the bathroom”? It’s like, something’s about to happen here.

AM: Yes. That’s every day. And when I don’t do it, I get depressed. But I don’t always do it. So what I like to do is I like to have discipline and inspiration meet halfway. So sometimes, yes, am I the girl writing stuff at four in the morning on my iPhone or a little piece of paper? Yes, of course. But what I’ll do is I’ll structure it. 

So with the record writing, I’ll ask my collaborator or my producer or I’ll set up studio time from 1 p.m.—once my son was born, I basically built a mini-studio in my home so that I could breastfeed and write and go back and forth. Sometimes at the same time. But I—what was I just saying there? Discipline, thanks!

TS: The combination. And you talk about this as a masculine and feminine combination.

AM: Yes, both sides of the brain.

TS: So the structure that you use—

AM: Yes, the structure is 1 p.m. to 4 p.m. every day for music. Sometimes I stay as late as 7, especially when it’s in my own home, because it’s just fun. Book writing, for me is five days a week. I do the—what do you call it—administrative, empire-running work from 12 to 2:30. I work out in the morning, hang out with my family in the morning. Then from 3 p.m. until 6 or 7, I write. And then I’m off, and I play with my son and hang out with my family.

TS: So your son is now almost 3, Ever. And when was 5 months old, this is when you decided to make this most recent record, to start the process.

AM: Yes.

TS: What was going on for you? I mean, here you’re a new mom, relationship first. Why the big push to make a new record? And how did you know that it was trustworthy and not something that was some type of work addiction or something like that?

AM: Well, it was probably a combination of work addiction and ego. Probably 20 percent was that. The other element was that I had post-partum depression. And the only time I’d had depression was when I wasn’t writing or working out or sleeping properly or I was in a break-up. So I thought, “Well, one way to address this might be to just write a record.” Also, I had a lot of journals full, so I’ll go through rhythms—and Eckhart Tolle talks about this. It’s so sweet, where he talks about certain times where you go away and that ebb, and then the flow comes up. 

So I call it the “under the rock” time. And I can’t spend too many years there, because I start feeling—you know, you just said, “Do you feel like you have to go pee?” For me, it just feels like I have to throw up. There’s just so much to say, and I’ll see things going on around me. Also, there is this added element where, when I’m at Whole Foods or some restaurant somewhere, and people’s perception of me—and this is the image-conscious 2, 3, 4 part of the Enneagram. I hate to admit that I’m pretty image-conscious, but I am. And for a pointed reason, actually, because I’m very agendaed around serving. 

So when I’m out in the world and there’s misperceptions about what I’m dwelling in based on the fact, understandably, that the last record they heard was four years ago, there’s this part of what I call the positive part of my ego that is like, “Update.” [Snaps fingers] “We’ve got to start writing songs about what’s happening now,” so that when I got out in the world and someone stops me in the street and they want to talk about content, I can go, “Oh yes.” And it’s topical and palatable and immediate. It’s in real time.

So there is an element of my wanting to catch up to real time. I wanted to pull out of my depression. It was also just time, I had tons of journals full. And also, I had these intentions, when I was pregnant, of finishing the book and finishing the record, and I did neither, because by 4 p.m. every day, I couldn’t move. So I had to push it all until later. 

And also, this terror—I think part of the post-partum depression, for me, had a lot to do with being a career woman and how much of an about-face my whole life experienced. I went from being on airplanes non-stop [for] travelling to talking for interviews to radio shows to rock shows to South America. And then, all of a sudden, it was like, I’m home, and I didn’t have that sense of community that I now know is so vital and so important to have gather around you. You need your women, you need your loved ones around you. And I didn’t even know how to do that. I didn’t know how to invite that. 

So it was a huge exercise in receptivity and learning how to be taken care of, because my role in my family was the therapist, to take care of everybody, and I just kept doing that over and over again.

TS: And here you are also modeling that, in the first year of your child’s life, you did both. You were a mom and an attachment parenting mom, and you made a new record.

AM: Yes! It was so great to be able to do it. And it also just required coffee.

[Audience laughs]

TS: OK, Alanis, I’m going to ask you one last question. Final question.

AM: OK, great! Are we going to talk with everybody, or no?

TS: No, this is it. We’re wrapping it up.

AM: OK, great.

TS: It’s been very intimate.

AM: Oh yes.

TS: With all of us here.

AM: Yes, it has.

TS: Here at Emerging Women, we’ve been exploring, from many different perspectives, where we are as women, you could say, in the feminist movement today—where we’ve come from, and potentially where we might need to go now, what’s next for us. And what I’m curious to know is the Alanis Morissette feminist agenda going forward.

AM: Oh no!

TS: What do you see?

AM: I touched on, a few minutes ago, the beginning part where it was very much about women proving their competence and their capacity to do and take action. To me, that’s just obvious now, especially to our generation, it’s obvious that we can. Where we’re going now is for us to cultivate and integrate both sides of the brain, both sides of the masculine/feminine yin/yang. Let the whole spectrum be available to us. And then, for the divine feminine to lead the charge so that the masculine and the feminine qualities in all of us would bow down to the feminine agenda, which is inherently connective. And that the divine masculine would provide and protect this feminine agenda, which is the sacred union, which is what we’re moving toward. 

And that eventually, the feminist movement will slowly fall away and it will become this sacred union, and it will become a no-brainer for us, this androgynous multitudeness, [this] huge range of masculine/feminine yin/yang will be embodied in our day-to-day life and we’ll call upon whatever aspect we need to. So God bless the feminist movement, because where we were in the patriarchy has been so violent and so oppressive and so fucking painful, that where we’re going sounds so much better to me, for men and women alike.

[Audience applauds and cheers]

TS: I said to Alanis when I first met her that I experienced her—I didn’t write you a song, but I wrote you an email. And the email said, basically, “You’re a glitter bomb.” And that’s how I experience this person. So I’m so happy that the glitter bomb exploded right here at the St. Julian with all of us. It was wonderful. Thank you.

AM: Thanks!

[ew-audio-download headline=”Free Audio Download” subheadline=”Power Practices, Vol. 1 Women Who Are Changing the World”]

Christine Arylo is a transformational teacher, internationally recognized speaker and best-selling author of the official self-love guidebook, Madly in Love with ME: the Daring Adventure to Becoming Your Own Best Friend. After earning her MBA from Kellogg and climbing the corporate ladder for fifteen years, she chose to devote her life to creating a new reality for women and girls, one based on self-love, freedom and feminine power instead of the relentless pursuit of having to do, be and have it all.

Kris Carlson is an international bestselling author and a leading expert on love, success, grief, happiness, and parenting. She’s the NY Times bestselling author and co-author of Don’t Sweat The Small Stuff, Heartbroken Open and An Hour to Live, An Hour to Love. Kris has sold over 25 million copies of her books, and has been featured on national radio and television broadcasts, including The Today Show, Empowered Living Radio, The View, and The Oprah Winfrey Show.

In today’s episode, Christine, Kris and I spoke about:

• Cultivating the feminine superpower of receiving
• How to come from a place of openness, rather than a place of knowing and drive
• Flexing your trust muscles and how to build trust over time
• The importance of strengthening the nervous system
• and finally, both Christine and Kris offer key practices for becoming more embodied

Tune in and listen to “The Power of Receiving” with the Superwomen of Receiving: Christine Arylo and Kris Carlson.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript:

Hello, welcome Kris and Christine!

Christine Arylo: Hello!

Kris Carlson: How’s it going?

CP: It’s going well! I want to clarify to the audience here, because we do technically have two Christines, so we’re talking here with Kris Carlson and Christine Arylo. So welcome, ladies!

KC: Well, thanks, Chantal!

CA: Yes, glad to be here.

CP: So we are talking today—we’ll probably hit a couple of different subjects here, but primarily, [we’re] talking about what, Christine, you call the “feminine superpower of receiving.” So maybe we could start with you and you could give us a little background on that terminology and why you think it’s actually a superpower.

CA: Yes, indeed. Well, I am imaging that many of [the people] out there listening, like me—and Chantal, I know like you, and also like Kris—we’ve been taught over the last several centuries to really value our ability to do over our capacity for being, to do more, to make stuff happen, really just a kind of like [growls], a kind of power. When we think about power, we think about things that are very forceful or you have to make it happen. It’s this very, “Go out and kill the meat” kind of mentality. “Go out there and get what you want!”

And that is one kind of power. But there’s this other kind of power, which I never really knew about until right about when I met with Kris Carlson, after I finished MBA school, after I finished that whole superpowered woman, Wonder Woman kind of thing. Because Kris, as it turns out, had been living from the feminine superpowers her whole entire life. She literally is the embodiment of feminine superpower.

And I remember when I met Kris, we had gone to this event together that she had invited me to. And we were in a big tent with all these people, and these people would come up to her and make invitations to her, and she was just very open and not having to make anything happen or figure out who she would have to go speak to or looking at the agenda. She was just very present and things would just come to here. And I’d be like, “How do you do that, Kris?” And she’d be like, “How do I do what?” I’m like, “That! That thing that you do when people just come to you and opportunities just come to you. You’re just invited in.” She’s like, “That’s just how I’ve always been.” And at the time I was studying the divine feminine pretty intensely, and I was like, “That’s all receiving, and it’s a feminine superpower!” And she’s like, “I didn’t know what that was.”

KC: [Laughs]

CA: Because you were born that way! I was born from living out of the masculine power. So we’re like the yin and the yang. I call it a feminine superpower because it’s a different power that’s just as powerful as achieving or making it happen. Receiving is allowing things to come to you, really allowing things to happen instead of feeling like you have to achieve and make it happen. And that’s why the feminine superpower piece—because it’s fun. I mean, who doesn’t want a superpower, right? It’s way more fun to talk about it that way.

CP: Yes. I definitely am just learning about the power of receiving. And I’m excited to hear from Kris as well, since it seems to be more innate in her, according to your description. So maybe we will all learn from the pro over here. But I do agree with you that when I experience it, it does feel like magic. “How is this happening? I didn’t even do anything!” But it’s a little hard to trust that as well. That’s the key.

CA: It’s super hard to trust it. And to underline what you just said, I didn’t have to do anything. It feels foreign to us. Receiving is a huge idea, and there’s some sort of call today to break it down for us. Because I think we all agree receiving, allowing things to come, and having to do less work, having to do less to do more impact would be the way we’d all want to live. But how do you actually “do” that? And how do we break it down so you can actually see where you’re at on the spectrum of your capacity to receive.

So when I think about feminine superpowers, I really think about it like a level of mastery. Kris is a master of receiving because, like you said, it’s innate in her. I’ve had to learn or relearn—I think it’s actually innate in all of us, but we have to activate it inside of us. So over the last seven, ten years since I’ve been studying this, I’ve increased my level of mastery to where I had to start at a very simple level of being able to just receive a hug in a way that I allowed my body—my stomach, my tummy, my heart—to touch another human, or receive a compliment, which is the beginning stages of receiving.

[And] the place where I live now—I’m living nomadically, and so I don’t often know where I’m going to live. I’ve been living without a home for a year and a half, and I have to trust that I’m going to be able to receive my home. I don’t always know where that’s going to be three or four weeks down the line. That’s a full-level spectrum—there’s all kinds of things in between of what the power of receiving can give us. But it really is about knowing where you’re at and that mastery.

CP: Right. Well, Kris, tell us about how you connect to this concept of receiving and how it’s played out. Give us a little background on how that’s played out and transformed in your life to get to the point where you’re actually creating some work around it.

KC: Yes, well, as Christine said, when we spent that time together, one of the beautiful things about Christine is that she’s so reflective with the people that she’s around. That’s what makes her such a wonderful coach and such a high priestess. She really sees things about other people, and she reflects that back to you about what she sees. So quite honestly, as she was telling me this, I was sort of, “Yes, but it’s taken me a lot longer than it’s taken her how to practice.” [Laughs] She actually knows how to figure out how to practice how to receive, whereas for me it’s an innate ability.

What I’ve identified is that there’s an openness that you have to have in order to receive. You literally have to think of yourself as the feminine receiver. So you’re the conduit of the divine, really. I have always begun every single day with the same prayer, or every single podcast, or every speech I do, and that is the prayer “Divine love, play me as an instrument in your finely tuned orchestra of life.” I think when you see yourself as a conduit and an instrument of love and light—really, the biggest part of receiving is getting out of your own way, and doing that is really what I like to call a mindset practice, really opening up your mind, opening up your heart, living presently, being more of a cup to be filled as opposed to a cup that is too much.

There’s this way in which openness and being available and open, and then being able to look at, when something comes along—how it plays out in my work life is I really feel into things. So when I get an invitation or an opportunity, like when Christine asked me to be a part of her 40-day receive program this summer, the biggest gauge that I have is, “How does my heart feel?” Because so much of becoming a receiver is about allowance, and it’s about feeling. And that is the feminine way. It’s more feeling-oriented. It’s more flow-oriented. It’s more allowing to be in the current of life and in the flow of life, as opposed to being like a salmon swimming upstream. I would say, “Save the swimming upstream for salmon to do. They do it really well. They have to do it to procreate. We don’t.” [Laughs]

Believe me, there’s times, with all this internet stuff and everything, I get muddled up into the whole “push” thing, as opposed to sitting back and allowing. I always have to remind myself, the way that that happens for me is—I know when I’m out of alignment, I feel like I’m getting too busy. There’s a certain amount of “receive” that requires you to slow down from the inside. And that just means that I need to pull back a little bit, become more present, [do] less multitasking and [be] more [present], do one thing at a time, more focus. And then in that focus, there’s a sort of empty presence that happens, too. It’s a way in which you come to everything very present, but not filled with expectation. Does that make sense?

CP: Yes, I think your metaphor of the empty cup is spot-on, so I’m getting a feel for what you’re talking about. There’s a curiosity—

KC: Yes, so if your cup is full of expectation, for example—to me, expectation is nothing but disappointment and resentment waiting to happen. So if you have your cup filled already with expectation—and I’m not saying you shouldn’t have goals. Everyone needs goals. But for me, like when I put 100 percent of myself into something, I know that my 100 percent is like 110 percent. And that is all that I can expect of myself.

So if I put all of my energy into something, I let go of the rest. And then it’s time to let God to the rest. Let go, let God. Just let it be. Let things happen as they are, as they’re going to unfold, not how I want them to be. And when you think of success—we saw it at your Emerging Women event in San Francisco, right, Chantal? You said you had higher expectations, but what a lovely evening it turned out to be with what it was.

It’s perfect as it is. I think that letting go of perfection is probably the biggest overworking, overachieving thing that we as women are all sort of driven in our society to be that. And that’s probably underlying all of it. It’s that thread of really still trying to do it all, be it all, and be it all perfectly. Do you think so too, Christine?

CA: I do, I do. And I think if I could share a comparison to give to all the ladies and any awesome men that are out there listening that might help everyone even just bring this in a little bit more. Would that be good, Chantal, just to give you a comparative piece between what is receiving and what is not receiving?

So what happened, back when Kris and I met, we went to this event of 500 women down in Los Angeles. It was actually the Marianne Williamson Sister Giant event several years ago. And I remember there was a whole group of us, and we were like, “Well, what are we going to be doing for dinner?” We wanted to connect with all of our friends, all of the other teachers that were there. And I was watching Kris, and I was watching another one of our friends who is just as accomplished as Kris—big New York Times bestselling author, fabulous teacher, wonderful woman. And I’m watching the two of them and how they’re operating around what’s going to happen. It’s a very simple example that plays out in every place in our lives. I was watched how the two of them are actually approaching what’s going to happen for dinner, knowing that we would all love to be able to have dinner together.

And so Kris is just going about being present at the event and we’re just there, not thinking about dinner, not thinking about the future, not thinking about anything. And the other woman is basically running around talking to everybody about what they’re doing for dinner, while we’re still in the event. She’s already in the future and not actually totally in the present. She’s in both places at the same time. And Kris is just absolutely like, “I’m just looking to lunch. I’m not thinking about dinner, I’m just thinking about lunch.” She’s in the present moment or just what the next step is.

So the event ends, it’s like five or six o’clock, and Kris and I wanted to know where everyone was meeting, if they’re meeting, if we’re even invited. And all of a sudden, the other woman, she comes running out of the conference room and she’s like, “OK, here’s the plan, da-da-da-da. We’re all eating dinner here’s where we’re having dinner.” And she’s just amped up, you can tell her energy is just so—she’s just in crazy overwhelmed doing mode. So we’re like, “OK, great.”

So we go back and we get dressed, and we’re just very calm. And then we just happen to walk into the dinner and there’s two seats that are available. Kris is at one end and I sit at one end in this other chair, and I end up meeting someone who becomes a tremendous teacher and partner for me, [who] I never would have met before. It never would have happened, but I just ended up sitting, at dinner, next to her. And she’s like, “Christine?” And I’m like, “Hey, I know you! And she’s like, “I know you!” And then we ended up working together.

So that’s the power of receiving, where Kris and I—I was following Kris and not this other woman, even though my nature, my second nature was to be more like, “Got to make it happen, got to connect, got to do all that.” And it’s not even that it’s about the connection that makes the over-piece, but it was just about how she was going about it all. There’s a lack of trust that happens. We get freaked out about just trusting. “Will I be invited? Will I know where to go? Will I be invited to where everybody else is going to be?”

So we have to, in order to really receive, learn how to surrender and trust. I think that’s that scares us the most, Chantal. It scares us to actually just really be that open, to allow it, because, what if? What if I don’t get invited? What if it doesn’t happen? What if the money doesn’t come in? And that’s the real test of faith. That’s the real difference between a person who talks about the feminine and a person who actually lives the feminine through her, as her, as a living embodiment of how it operates.

CP: Right. How do you build the trust? Because I feel like, in my own life, I’m doing this dance where—especially since I’m leading something. I’m the person who organizes the dinner. That’s what I do. I don’t know why I end up being in that position a lot. And right now, I know in my business, I’m trying to bring in more of the receptivity and ask for more guidance and allow that space to happen so I’m not driving 24/7. But that issue of trust that you bring in is so critical, and I’m wondering if that can be built up, or do you just jump off the cliff and just trust? Because that’s hard for me.

CA: Do not just jump off the cliff.

[All laugh]

CA: That’s the other kind of power, that, “I should just be strong enough to jump off the cliff because I’m powerful!” No, no, no. It’s just like if you were to learn how to hang glide. You wouldn’t just get on a hang glide in your first time out. “I’m just going to fly right off a cliff!” You’ve just got to learn lessons—there’s a building up.

KC: You have to exercise your trust muscle, just like you’d exercise your biceps. You really have to exercise and life itself teaches you. Because the results that you have when you surrender and you’re in the flow, that’s when life is magical, right? We’ve all had that experience when things just come to us. And that’s a space within you. It’s not without you, that’s actually within you.

CA: And this is where, as achievers, we get confused. It’s not that you might not be the person who ends up calling the people together to have the beautiful dinner, but the energy from which you come from will be very different. And it’s not always going to be you. So I know for me, part of my receiving journey [is] to learn to trust that someone else will take care of it. And that if I’m the one that’s supposed to take care of it—and this is where Kris was saying, the feminine, you can feel it. You cannot live in the feminine and not be in your body. You have to be in relationship to your intuition.

So it’s about tapping into, “Is this mine to do? Am I the one to be the spark to bring the people together? Or am I, right now, supposed to be the one in space and hold the space and allow it to form around me?” You don’t start that trust—you start that with little things, things like a dinner, or things like, when I became [nomadic], I didn’t just sell my house and go nomadic. It took a tremendous amount of faith that I would be able to receive my home no matter what.

I started this probably seven years ago when my friends dared me to go to Big Sur and not book a hotel room. And I was like, “What are you talking about, go to Big Sur and not book a hotel room? It’s high season, I would have to sleep in my car!” One of my biggest fears is physical uncomfortability. I do not like to be physically uncomfortable. But I took the challenge. I’m like, “All right, I’ll trust. I surrender, I trust.”

And we drove down there, and all these things were “sold out, sold out, sold out.” And then I had a hit. I was driving along, and I’m like, “No, I’ll pull into this place over here.” And he just pulls in, and I’m like, “Let’s just go in!” And of course they have one room available. It was a little bit over our budget, not a lot, and we’re standing in the room and we’re like, “What do you think? Should we take it? Should we not take it?” Because I wasn’t in full trust yet. “I don’t know, I don’t know.” And Noah’s like, “We’ll take it.” And we walked downstairs and as soon as we were signing the documents, another couple walks in and they would have taken the room, because there were no more rooms left. We got the last one.

So in that moment, I built my bicep, my trust muscle, so I can do it again and do it again and do it again. Like Kris said, you build, you don’t bench press 200 pounds to start. You start with 20, then you go to 40. It’s the same thing with trust and receiving.

KC: And I think, Chantal, you said an important thing. When you’re the person [who] is the gatherer, the person that’s setting the container, there’s a way in which you can do that, like what Christine was saying, in a very receptive place, very open place, that takes less energy than to do it from a push-hard, controlling place that will really, in the end, overwhelm you and make you feel overworked.

Again, it’s more than the energy, because I know I certainly have done many things where I was also the person who created it or set the container for it. But there’s a way in which even—like, I remember at my wedding, long again, I did everything I needed to do the summer before, and I never stressed about it. I just truly wasn’t stressed about it, because at the end of the day, it’s just going to be a big party. I knew it was going to be beautiful and I knew there would be things that would happen, and I remember just feeling very open to allowing it to be the party it was meant to be, not the party that—I didn’t just create this big summation of the way I thought things were supposed to be.

I think a lot of what we’re talking about is, sometimes things turn out better than we think. Sometimes our plans actually create a limitation as opposed to allowing it to be bigger than it might have been, too. And that’s not to say that you don’t take care of the details. You still take care of all the details, but there’s just this different openness that you bring to the table.

CP: Right. It’s interesting—when I hear you talk, I feel how embodied you are, Kris. There’s just something in your energy that just feels very much in your body. And I know—not that this is going to become an Enneagram discussion, but I know that you—

KC: [Laughs] Oh!

CP: It’s tempting! It’s tempting! But I know that you’re a 9, and then Christine is, like myself, a 7, which is the mental point. I wonder if we can explain more of that embodiment and as it relates to receptivity a little bit. Because I know that for myself, when I’m in the mental spin—let’s just take that issue of the dinner. It’s either, “I’m not going to get invited,” or, “I’m going to invite people and no one’s going to come.” Either side of that, you’re still in this mental spin and it’s really hard to be receptive. And yet you just feel so embodied. I wonder if you could say more about the connection between being receptive and being in your body.

KC: Well, I am a very physical person. I do a lot of—my personal health regime is really about [meditating]. I’ve meditated for years. I don’t do long meditations, I do mantra meditations or very short two- to three-minute meditations, maybe 10 minutes in the morning. But I don’t know, maybe that comes from [the fact that] I have a lot going on in my life, like we all do. But I’ve got a lot of other stuff going on. Christine’s watched me go through everything from a 19-year-old pregnancy to stalkers to [laughs] all sorts of different things since Richard died.

Richard’s death, I have to say, the loss of going through that, it was really something that brought me into my body in a totally different way. My body was really what led me through all of that and taught me to surrender to a totally different degree. I think I’ve always been this very feminine woman because I had a man who really held that masculine place, but in a very divine way. It wasn’t like I was a submissive feminine. I was a feminine energy that was able to emerge in the way that women—like fluid water. And he really held that ground for me.

So I went through a lot of surrender-trust-and-accept in grief. And when you emerge from something like that, it’s so big, that life change and that life transformation that happens, that there’s almost nothing else that’s bigger than that. There’s maybe one other thing that would be bigger for me, and I don’t like to think about that. [Laughs] But there’s nothing else that’s bigger than that that I’ve been through, and I think that’s maybe what Christine really has seen in me.

To me, being invited to the party doesn’t have the same kind of sting that maybe it would have had a long time ago. Do you know what I mean? I think that’s just because I’ve practiced being present. I’ve practiced really being in my body and being grounded, because I had to. I was at risk for not really staying on the earth if I didn’t.

CA: And I think, too—and this even related to the Enneagram, I will reflect this back to you, Kris. Because you know how I love how the reflective things work. She doesn’t know that she’s just this way. It’s like, “Blah blah blah blah blah!” And when you deal with the Enneagram or a spiritual caste, it’s our path back to the faith of trust, to the faith of trust that no matter what, everything’s going to be OK. But it’s our ego that creates—and our ego’s helpful, but all the things that we do, as a plan or as to achieve or to whatever, that’s all because we’re actually not trusting.

And when I think about trust, I think about those trust falls, where you’re standing on a tree and you fall backwards and you fall into people’s arms. And it’s like that with receiving. We’re falling into the arms of spirit. We’re falling into the arms of God. We’re falling into the arms of the divine. Whatever that is for you. And I think what we’re hearing Kris say is when Richard died, that broke open her entire internal structure. Because our nervous system is part of it, right?

So that’s why Kundalini yoga—every day, every morning, if I do not do my Kundalini yoga every morning, I’m not a receiver. I’m a planner, I’m an overachiever, and it’s really hard for me to trust and slow down and bow. Because my nervous system, your nervous system, all of our nervous systems are programmed to respond to—we’re in fight-or-flight more than we’re in, “Oh, I’m in the hands of God.” And we can talk about that, we can say that, and a lot of us do, but there’s a big difference between that and embodying it.

And embodying it only comes through practice, and sometimes it happens like big mama jamas, like Kris got, the initiations she got like Richard dying and her daughter being pregnant at 19 and having a stalker. We could go on about this—she wrote Don’t Sweat the Small Stuff? She’s like, don’t sweat the big stuff!

KC: [Laughs]

CA: Where is that book? And so all that training that she did over the years, the last 30 years, to strengthen her nervous system so that when shit did happen, that she could still come from that place of grace. And that’s what we’re all doing. As we find our way back to the feminine, we trust in and we learn these feminine superpowers and embody and feel that, “Oh, if I allow, things are still going to be OK. I’m still going to safe.” Or, “If I receive, if I trust, if I surrender, all the things that are hard, that require faith,” they start to restructure that nervous system so that instead of feeling like you have to be the one to do and be and figure it out, you can actually have that deeper level of faith, and actually that is the one, that spirit is the one, that the divine in the one holding you.

But you have to actually have to experience it, sometimes for the big stuff, but if you can practice it daily so that if you do—it’s not like the law of attraction. It doesn’t work that way. Sometimes we’re all going to get big stuff. But then even just the stuff that’s like—Kris and I are developing this program together for the 40-day receiving practice, and we almost got triggered by each other. Because it happens in partnerships, especially around women.

KC: [Laughs]

CA: So we’re both having this experience—we can feel like we’re having our own experience, but then we’re in this other experience of seeing, “Oh, now it’s all OK.” We both know that we can trust [that] this is all part of the bigger, “Throw a receiving practice, look at all the ways in which you don’t trust.” So it comes up, but because we do that daily practice, we build our muscles, just like, Chantal, you’re out there with the CrossFit and doing your thing so if you had to move something heavy, you could do that. You’d have the physical strength. So we do the same thing with our emotional and our spiritual strengths so that we can actually trust at deeper levels

CP: Yes, I think what you said was, “Strengthening the nervous system.” That’s kind of what I zeroed in on as something concrete that we could do, that I could do to flex the muscles, so to speak. And I know you’re launching a couple courses around receiving and there’s going to be practices. Can you two give me an idea of—maybe at least one practice that you could summarize that could help us on that path to really building back our nervous system? Because that’s something I think we can all relate to.

KC: For sure. One of the things I’ve always taught in my work is, “How you start your day is how you live your day.” If you jump out of bed in the morning at the alarm clock and you’re already starting your day out frazzled, then chances are that’s how the rest of your day is going to unfold. So what I’ve always taught moms and women to do is get off to a peaceful start. Really create your own space in your home, in your life. It only takes 10-20 minutes.

It starts right when you wake up in the morning. Instead of getting up quickly, put your feet over the edge of your bed. Christine will tell you what she does in a minute. Put your feet on the side of your bed. Get up slowly. Put a warm, cozy robe on. Go get some tea or lemon water or coffee, whatever you need, and then meditate for 10 minutes, do some inspiration reading. Whatever that ritual is for you, that’s one of the ways that you can practice immediately receiving and nourishing your spirit.

Because that’s so much of this for women. We give so much to everyone around us, we take of so many people, we take care of everyone, but oftentimes, at the end of the day, we kind of ask the question, “Gee, where do I fit into my own life? I don’t even know where I exist anymore, where I’m coming and going.” And when you’re feeling like that, it’s really because you’re not taking any time for yourself. So I find, for women to do that first thing in the morning, it’s imperative to beginning a receive practice.

CA: I love that teaching and I strive to it. Like I was saying, if I don’t start my day with tuning my nervous system to expansiveness and openness, I will literally go through my day and I will feel contracted, or I’ll try to be controlling, or it will just be more stressful. So we think we have to meditate for 60 minutes on a cushion, but it’s actually not that at all. It goes back to the mantra that Kris said, and I think it’s an example of one of the best prayers.

I have several receiving practices I do every morning, right from my bed. [They] take me less than five minutes. I’m going to give you one that I actually do on my mat every morning, or my furry rug: I do Kundalini yoga. And so those of you who really do want to want to experience repatterning the nervous system, that yoga—specifically that kind of yoga, Kundalini yoga—is built for repatterning the nervous system. It was specifically brought here in order for us to be able to deal with the kind of pressure that we are under in a society. The yogis knew that, and that’s why they came here in the ’70s to teach it in the Americas.

Just little practices I do make such a difference. One that I want to share with you is actually more of a self-love practice that I do every morning. Self-love is a big part of my teaching, and it really has been part of what saved my life, because I think from a receiving perspective, one of the things that I’ve had to really give myself is that love. As Kris said, when you’re giving, it’s out of lack. When you’re giving too much, you’re not receiving enough. That’s when your chalice is empty or it’s not full enough, so you’re trying to fill from your reserves.

So every morning, this is a very simple super-duper practice to make sure that you’re not [taking] from your reserves is to just imagine that you have an energy dipstick in your body, and you’re going to dip the dipstick in, and you’re going to get a reading on a scale of 0 to 100. And I invite you to go ahead and close your eyes right now and just ask yourself what your number is. If you were to give yourself a reading of 0 to 100, with 100 being totally full, and 50 being at half-tank, and 0 being empty, where is your number? All right, Chantal, where is your number?

CP: I got a 45.

CA: All right, Kris, your number?

KC: I’m probably a 60.

CA: And I’m 67. So here’s the scale. Are you all ready? If you are below 50, you don’t really have anything to give. You’re giving from a place in your body that is beyond your reserves. There’s a big self-care, self-love lesson about receiving, which is, “Never serve from your reserves.”

So you really want to be at 75 or above. I’m not usually above 75. I’m usually somewhere between, like 65 and 73. I aspire to be above 75. But if you’re above 50, you actually have energy in your chalice to give. But if you’re below 50, you really don’t. That’s why you feel depleted, that’s why your nervous system starts to freak out, and that’s why you start to go into fight-or-flight, because you’re like, “Oh, I don’t want to give! I don’t have any more to give!” But you don’t know how to stop, right?

And so what I do in that situation is to just notice that. Don’t judge it, but just notice it. And check in every day and ask yourself the question, “Well, what do I need to receive? What do I need to receive?” So, Chantal, Kris, just close your eyes again, and take a breath, and just ask yourself, ask your body, ask your soul, what do you need to receive today? All right, Kris, what did you get?

KC: I got a little bit of space.

CA: Good. Chantal?

CP: This is hard for me! [Laughs] This is the part that’s hard for me!

CA: It’s OK if you don’t get—

KC: What would be your language of love to receive? Is it somebody appreciating you?

CP: Well, I mean, let’s not get too deep here on the podcast.

CA: What I’ll say is this: If you don’t get anything [right away], which happens to people, it just means that you haven’t been tuning in to what you need to receive. And that’s normal, that’s a normal place to start with a practice. Of course your inner wisdom is like, “What, she just asked me that question? She hasn’t asked me that question in years!” And so your wisdom is taken aback, just like, “What? Me? I get to receive?” Especially for you, Chantal, and for all of us, we give so much.

I’ve been doing this practice for over five years. Actually, seven? No, five years, it was five years ago, after I met Kris and I realized that if I didn’t learn how to receive, I wasn’t going to make it. I wasn’t going to be able to have the impact in the world that I wanted without depleting myself, my resources, my time, my money, and eventually, at the age of 40, my body. Because what you can do in your 20s and 30s and what you can give, once you get over the age of 40, your body starts to revolt. And I’ve seen some of the most powerful women just go down. I mean, look at Arianna Huffington. She tells the story about how she fell. She’s one of the most powerful women there is, and her body revolting. So it’s totally normal.

It’s OK, Chantal. Just make something up. You can just choose. What I got was, “I just need a really good heart-to-heart with a girlfriend tonight. That’s what I need to receive.” And so if you don’t get something, you can just make something up. Like, “What would I want to receive?”

CP: Well, you know, ironically enough, I think, for me—and that’s why I was kind of more on the embodied side of things and admiring Kris so much. Not that I’m not admiring you, Christine, of course I am. But something I yearn to tap into more is being more connected to the messages within the body. And I’m not saying, “Do I feel well? Do I feel OK?” but actual guidance and receiving even the present moment or another or my work in a way that is more deeply rooted in my body, and not just living up in my brain, which is what it feels like.

So when you asked me that question, I was just trying desperately to bring the whole experience down into the body so that I could get the message. So, ironically, I think what I want to receive is more receptivity from an embodied place.

CA: And that is where we want to ask the question from. So it’s a great noticing for you, and for any of us—if we try to make it in our mental mind, it’s like, “Here’s what I think I should want. Here’s what I think I do need.” But sometimes what I’ll do is I’ll just scan. If I can’t get an answer from my body, I’ll just scan my body. I imagine myself just scanning my body, or I’ll put my hands on my belly. Your belly is where the feminine lives in your body. It’s your center of receptivity. And just [breathe] into that place in your body until you get a word, until you get an image, until you get something that your intuition can get to you through your body.

KC: Or a feeling. A lot of times, I think what happens, Chantal, is that we get into such [an] overdoing mode that we forget that we need permission to feel our feelings, and we need to take the time. Because a lot of times all you really need to do is just have a really good cry. Just sit down for no good reason—you don’t even have to have a reason to cry. But just to sort of clear all the energy out of your body. That’s why walking or hiking or time in nature or yoga—it all clears the energy channels in the body.

So when you want to feel your message, or you want to feel your heart and have that natural flow of communication—which is what it sounds like you’re asking for—then really being able to express emotions sometimes is the easiest. That’s another path, another way to receive that information and to clear it. Because it’s usually because you just got some—you know, you’ve been doing, doing, doing, and what you really need to do is just sit with it and be for a while. And if you sat down and you just sort of let your body shake, maybe lay on the floor in a spread eagle and just breathe, you might be surprised what might come up.

CA: That’s actually one of our super practices. We actually both did it, and we know we both did it. In order to receive, you have to surrender first. So you can put yourself into the nervous system in the body. Just pull yourself down on the floor in like a cross position, an ultimate surrender position, and you just say to yourself, “I surrender, I surrender, I surrender,” until you can feel the tension release from your body.

There are all these different practices that she and I do so that when the stress shows up, we can release, so that we can surrender, so that we can get into it. Sometimes I’ll even just fall back on my bed, like, “I surrender! I surrender!” Sometimes it’s me on my mat in the morning, just bowing down, like I did this morning. I was just bowing down on my mat and just saying to the divine, “I surrender. Allow me to be an instrument. I surrender, I surrender.” Praying is another way to really open to receive. Because as Kris was saying, if you don’t have faith, it can’t come in. It can’t come in, there’s no faith.

KC: Yes, I always say, if you express it out, and you let it out through any kind of expression, sometimes it could sound almost like an animal. I could just be, [growls] like a real loud noise. You sound like a lion. It’s kind of an odd thing, but at least my own body releases endorphins and all sorts of stuff that makes me feel better. And then the channel is more clear. Then your receptivity goes up when the channels are clear.

CP: Right. Well, I so appreciate the practice that we did just now. I think that’s really what I wanted to get at, because we hear a lot of this principle of receiving, and I know that a lot of us are in the middle of learning this. It’s really good to get concrete and almost physical with it, because it is a concept that can easily stay conceptual and in the ethers as an idea, which is the exact opposite of what it’s trying to achieve.

CA: Yes. The feminine is not an idea. She is living and breathing through us. The thing for all of us to really get [is] that we are the ones—the way that we live our lives, the way that we structure our value systems, the way that we make our choices, we are literally bringing her into being through our own bodies and through how we live. And that’s why we need these kinds of practices. There’s nobody out there coming to say, “Here’s the feminine!” We’re all learning it, and that’s what Kris and I have dedicated our practice to, of how we actually practice this on a day-to-day level.

And what I’ve found—and this is why I do things like the 40-day practices—is [that] there [are] these underlying things. Every one of us, everyone listening to this right now, you all want to—who would rather not be the person who gets to receive and who gets invited, [and be] the person who runs around like a chicken with her head cut off? Of course we’d all love to be able to live in that place of grace, to really live our lives as queens—not from a place of entitlement, but from a place of service and being served and [living] from grace.

And to do that, we have to find all those places inside of our nervous system—all those beliefs, all those patterns, all those habits—that have gotten stuck in there that are to the contrary, that are the opposite of the trusting and the surrendering and the receiving. So I do a 40-day practice. The yogis, the physicians, the brain scientists, they all agree that if you do one thing for 40 days and focus on it, you can find a pattern and you can shift it. You can bring awareness to it and you can break it.

And so that’s what happens. We all have to look at where are the ways in which we’re blocking receiving based on patterns and beliefs that we have that are inside of us that are actually not our first nature, they’ve just been learned because we live on a planet that is so full of fear and has devalued the feminine for so long. So that’s really the task that we’re all under from a spiritual an emotional perspective: Locating those inside of our emotional body, our spiritual body, our physical body, our mental mind, and them breaking them so the flow can come in and we can truly be the receptors that hold for the divine that we are all meant to be.

KC: And I think keeping in mind, too, that the divine feminine energy is really a spiral. It’s not linear. The masculine way has presented a very linear way to live, and the divine feminine is very, very spiral. It’s like being the eye of the storm. It’s all right to have chaos around you when you’re in your body and you’re receiving the feminine. You’re not going to stop giving, but you’re going to learn how to give with more grace and ease. And you’re going to learn how to receive so that you can give more with grace and ease. That’s the beauty of the feminine, that it’s a spiral, it isn’t linear.

CP: Yes. Well, thank you both so much! It seems that you’re very complementary, and I think this is great work. I want to make a mention of your upcoming live stream, which will be an evergreen offering on both of your websites called “Grace Under Pressure.” Is that correct, that we can access this on either website?

CA: Yes. You’ll be able to do it from either of our websites. Or there will be a direct URL to femininesuperpowers.com.

CP: OK. Cool. Well, more on that coming down the pike. When is that?

CA: It will be livestreamed for solstice, but it will be open and available. It’s really about helping you find those places in your life where you’re putting pressure on your emotional, physical, mental, spiritual bodies, and then releasing at least one of those pressure points. Because a lot of the pressure that we feel—whether we like to admit it or not, ladies, this is the truth—we put it on ourselves. And so we’re the ones that are holding our finger for perfection, and those expectations. We’re the ones creating the pressure.

And I will never forget something that, Kris, you told me. I don’t know if you even remember this. I was on my way to the jungle for about a week, and you had said to me, “Richard used to say,” and this is a direct quote, that, “‘Stress is just an acceptable form of mental illness in our society.’” And when you said that to me, I took that with me in my suitcase to Costa Rica. I remember I was in the jungle for about four days, sitting there, and I made a list of all the things that I did to create stress for myself and all of the things that I couldn’t change. And I realized, “Shit, that’s a lot of pressure on myself! I’m creating stress for myself! Why am I doing that?” So that’s what “Grace Under Pressure” is really about—helping people find those place where you are doing it so you can lift that finger off that pressure point, and that’s what allows the divine flow to come in.

KC: Yes. Taking responsibility for your own happiness is really the ultimate empowered place to live from, for sure.

CA: And it ain’t always easy! [Laughs]

KC: I know! You put those quotes on Facebook and everybody always says, “That’s not easy to do.” [Laughs] No, it’s not! It takes a lot of practice.

CP: Right, right. OK, ladies.

CA: Well, thanks, Chantal!

KU: Thanks, Chantal! That was lovely!

CP: Thank you so much! Take care!

[ew-audio-download headline=”Free Audio Download” subheadline=”Power Practices, Vol. 1 Women Who Are Changing the World”]

She is the author of REVEAL: A Sacred Manual For Getting Spiritually Naked. She facilitates the REDLADIES, a spiritual community that encourages women to reclaim their bodies as sacred and to be led by the soul-voice inside them. Meggan was a featured presenter at the May 22, 2014 Power Party in New York City.

In today’s episode, Meggan and I spoke about:

• What she means by getting “Spiritually Naked”
• Acknowledging the shadow-side of our truth just as much as the light
• Connecting with the Soul Voice and how to make this a regular part of our lives
• The current Feminine Spiritual Revolution we are in and acknowledging the feminine

Tune in and listen to “Getting Spiritually Naked” with the fiery and authentic: Meggan Watterson.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript:

OK, welcome Meggan!

Meggan Watterson: Thank you. I’m so happy to be talking with you.

CP: Yes. I’ve been looking forward to this.

MW: I have to warn you, I’ve had an excess amount of dark chocolate, and I’m also wearing my sort-of truth necklace. So it’s going to be fiery. [Laughs]

CP: All right! Throwing it down at the get-go! I love it. OK. That’s my favorite. Well, I would love to just dig right in on REVEAL, which is not only the title of your latest book—which I believe came out last year, in 2013, correct?

MW: Yes.

CP: And the subtitle, A Sacred Manual for Getting Spiritually Naked, very intriguing. I was wondering if you could start there and tell us what you mean by “spiritually naked.”

MW: Yes, yes. Absolutely. Well, very simply, it refers to our capacity to just strip down to the truth of who we are. That sounds very simple, but sometimes it can take quite a process, quite a wearing away of the things that are no longer serving us, for us to then get to that place where we can just express an immediate truth in the moment, whatever it is that we really need to simply reveal the truth of who we are.

So it’s letting go of those ideas that are [usually] external ideas of who we are and who we need to be and what we need to think and say and do, which also extends into the spiritual practice of spiritual life. What I found in my immersing and emergence in the spiritual world was that there was a lot of pretense and expectation—that same cultural norm and ideal of being somehow perfect exist in the spiritual realm, too.

For me, what I really longed for was a capacity to just be fully human and also fully divine. I wanted to be able to be both. And that’s what was truth for me. Not one or the other. I wanted to find that juicy cosmic mix of being able to be guided every day, every breath, by the voice of my soul, by connection to the part of me that is more than me. And I wanted to be fed by a source of love that was inside of me and not dependent on anything outside of me. The love that is love that is love that is love—that love that renders us all equal. I wanted my life to be led my that.

And at the same time, I wanted to be OK with the unique paths and processes that I had to go through in order to get there and in order to remain there. So incredible heaped buckets and mountains worth of forgiveness and patience and levity. So often when we get into this idea of what it means to be spiritual, we take ourselves so seriously. And I think that can really be an obstacle and a hindrance to us really moving forward with being everything that we are. Because it’s important to really acknowledge that our voice and our soul has something unique to share in the world, but getting too stuck in the seriousness, the heaviness, the weight of it all can really slow the whole process down.

So all of that is really wrapped up in that statement of getting “spiritually naked.” And that’s the process that I went through.

CP: Yes. You know, it’s so interesting, this question of, “What does it mean to be spiritual?” I love how you’re addressing that in terms of, in this world here, we have things like perfection, and we struggle with that, both the light and the dark side of that. But we never really think of that in terms of the spiritual realm. It’s sort of like not an issue. But you’re actually saying that it can be an issue, and that’s very interesting.

MW: Yes, and this sort of ideal that we would want to leave our body behind or deny our body or somehow ignore and transcend the body—for me, the places where my soul actually grows and really does feel more weighty behind my eyes and pulsing and more clear and present are those very times when I need to allow my love to go where it’s never gone before. Which includes those incredibly human moments.

I had a severe anxiety disorder in my 20s. As a teacher, that anxiety disorder allowed me to get to this place where I needed to just accept radically and just fiercely love this body that went into a complete meltdown—embarrassing, sweaty pits, total pale freak-out—every time I tried to get on an airplane. If I tried to control it and get all spiritual in a way where I was secretly hating and loathing my humanity, that didn’t work. That was a withholding of my love. It wasn’t allowing me to go where I was weakest, where I was most vulnerable.

And where I really started to grow was when I had compassion on that part of me, that human part of me, and began to love it really fiercely and say, “You know what? I don’t give a flying F about what I must look like right now to anybody else!” And I started allowing myself to just panic however I needed to, and to look at it with the eyes of love, the way that the soul would, not the ego. And really understand that this was a teacher and that my love needs to reach here, too, and not try and control and perfect and look spiritual in a certain way.

CP: Yes, yes. It’s funny that you say “look spiritual in a certain way.” I know that Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche wrote a book called Spiritual Materialism, which I thought was a very interesting book on that topic, that we look to the spiritual world and spirituality to kind of take us out of the pain that we’re feeling in the everyday. So we kind of expect it to be free of the problems of duality. But in reality, how it plays out, it seems like that kind of stuff just keeps coming us. Even in the spiritual world, we can get attached in a materialistic way to ritual or to the way we think a spiritual response to a situation should be.

MW: Yes. And I think a lot of it is embracing the dark or embracing the shadow, embracing the aspects of ourselves that, in the past, a lot of spiritual teachers have said doesn’t exist for them. And then of course, there’s some great sexual scandal or there’s a secret drinking addiction or sex addiction or something, because the shadow will always present itself, especially if unaddressed or suppressed and denied.

For me, in my journey, a lot of what I’ve studied was this figure, the Black Madonna. I studied her as a scholar and but then also as a pilgrim, and went to many of the sites the Black Madonna [appears] in Italy and France and Switzerland and Spain. There are 500 of them throughout Europe.

And what’s so fascinating about the Black Madonna is a lot of work that’s been done around those who worship her, and they’re people who have really been through the fires in their life—have really gone through pain and suffering and darkness. They felt that she, as opposed to the more European Caucasian Madonna, that the Black Madonna could hold the darkness as well, could acknowledge the light but then also hold them in the dark. It’s like that passage from Robert Frost, the poet. He said, “The only way out is through” in one of his poems, and that to me is really a spiritual practice. Not denying the dark or denying the pain or the true suffering, but really being in it and being with it and being aware of it.

I like to say that I’m somebody who cleans behind my toilet. It’s true. It’s a metaphor but it’s also true. I clean behind my toilet and mentally, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, it’s so important for me to look at the shadow, just as significantly as it is to acknowledge the light.

CP: One of the things that the words—well, obviously the main word is “reveal,” and I just love that word. I just think it’s so nice because it’s like “emerge,” which is my favorite word of all time. [Laughs] But there’s something gentle about it, and it presupposes the existence—it’s almost like you’re the same person, you’re just lifting a veil, as opposed to becoming something different. It’s just got a nice feel to it.

MW: Yes. And that really is the essence of my experience. The path to the divine was simultaneously a path to finding my true self and being able to express that. And that process, for me, was really about lifting those veils that we’re obscuring. Because it’s always there.

I like to say sometimes, in my talks, “If you feel like you’ve never had an experience of the essence of who you are, your soul, or whatever you want to call it, the truth inside of you. If you feel like you have no idea what I’m talking about when I say that, I want you to come up to me and I’m going to stare at you until you feel it.” I said it sort of spontaneously this one time, and I couldn’t believe how many people [came] up and asked for that. And they get it, they have that experience.

It’s right there. It’s in us, and we have all connected to it at different points, sometimes intensely, sometimes methodically because we do it in a meditation practice. But we know what that essence is. It’s just so difficult sometimes to get to that essence of who we are because of self-doubt and shame and a lack of self-worth—all these things that complicate the expression of that essence.

But yes, it’s there, it’s within us, it’s the truth of who we are. And for me, it’s a metaphor that expressed so much better than this idea of becoming something different. It was really more just revealing what’s innately there.

CP: I was going to ask you what you think [is] in our way, and you listed the fear and the self-doubt. I’m curious to see—in the book, you basically call it a manual, because that’s not so easy to overcome those things. And they come and then you overcome it, you know what I mean? I’ve kind of taken my fear as like he’s with me—it’s a “he” for some reason, I don’t know, I just said that—he’s on the journey with me. I’m like, “OK, you can come.” It’s like when the kids want to go to the grocery store with you. After a while, you’re just like, “All right. Come on. Gear up.” [Laughs]

But one of the things that you talk about, I know, in your work is the soul-voice as being something to connect with to help you get to reveal yourself, get to that soul essence of yourself. And I’m curious if you can elaborate on that, let us know what you mean by “soul-voice.” What does it sound like?

MW: What does it sound like? It sounds like Barry White. Have you ever heard Barry White? [Laughs]

CP: Oh, I know Barry White, yes!

MW: Totally. It’s actually a very unfeeling voice. It’s actually incredible easy to miss. I like to say that my ego, when I go into meditation, my ego sounds a lot like a used car salesman. And over the years, I’ve gotten pretty good at identifying the ego, which is not to say [I] deny and not listen to it, but it’s to be in right relation to it. So I’m not always being guided by that voice, and can choose and can connect to the voice of my soul when I want to.

But yes, the voice of the soul—it works on a sense of timelessness and the eternal. So if we think about that, the soul is not going to be putting any pressure—the energy of the voice is, “Whenever you choose.” It has this sense of timelessness and this sense of acceptance and just fathomless love, like a love that has no limit and has no depth. It just goes on and on and on and on. It has no bottom to it.

For me, navigating through that phobia of flying—which, what I found with it, I was like, “OK, fine, I just won’t fly. I’ll be one of those people who takes trains and drives everywhere.” But what I found is when you move in the direction of fear, fear actually only increases. At least that was true for me. The more and more I allowed fear to dictate what I was going to do in my life, the big life choices that I was going to make, the more and more fear began to contain me and cage me.

So what I found was that I needed a practice that helped me connect and make the choice. Because I was getting usurped by fear and choices were being made for me. I didn’t feel like I even had a choice in the matter when I was pulled off planes or when I would make a decision about my life totally based on staying small. So I wanted to figure out a way, “How can I, in a very disciplined and pragmatic way, connect to that voice that I know is in highest alignment with my truth, with my highest truth, with that essence of why I’m here and what it is that I’m here to do?”

And so I was in seminary for three years. I was literally living in a convent. I was very much an urban nun. And I was studying these monastics from the Byzantine era, the desert fathers known as the Hesychasts. And they had this Prayer of the Heart, and it was such a powerful, beautiful prayer, but you had to crawl forward and had to repeat, “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner,” and that didn’t really resonate with me and that wasn’t what I wanted to do.

But I took that idea of dropping into the heart—the idea of the Hesychasts, what they wanted, was a theological term called theosis, which is a perpetual connection to the divine. No matter when and where they are, no matter what they’re doing, they’re constantly connected to the divine.

And that really lit me up, that idea. Because I didn’t just need spirituality on a Sunday or holidays. I wanted it to infuse my every day and my every breath. And I felt like this was the way because if I had a practice where I could go within no matter where I was or what I was doing, then it was a spiritual tool that went with me everywhere.

And so I sort of took that as inspiration, that Hesychast Prayer of the Heart and I created this soul-voice meditation. And that became my prayer, but I didn’t do it—I’m an indie mom, so I’ve been raising a son on my own for the past four years, and waking up and sitting on a cushion for half an hour with incense and beads, that was never going to work for me.

So I wanted to figure out a way where I could be changing diapers and praying. I could be on the subway and praying. I could be standing in line at the grocery store and praying. A way that I could be constantly checking in using my soul like a fist pump and really feeling like I was connected and moving from that place of truth inside of me.

In the third veil, in REVEAL, I talk a lot about that process and creating that soul-voice meditation, and it’s really become a constant thing. Right before we started talking, I went within for a moment. It’s like giving a wink and a kiss [to] the soul and saying, “May you be present. And may I speak from that source of truth inside of me.” And it was a constant connecting and moving from that place, and it ultimately, then, is this cultivation of expressing that essence of who I am.

And again, going back to what we were originally talking about when we first started talking, it’s devoid of a sense of perfection or a sense of, “There’s a right way to do this.” “Oh, I always have to follow that Barry White voice of my soul. I can never listen to fear. I can never listen to the ego.” It’s not like that. It’s that you’re conscious of where you’re making your choices from.

I’ve made choices from my ego, and then I’m not a victim, because I’m conscious of the choice that I’m making. And if there are repercussions or if things go badly or unfold in a way that is difficult, I’m conscious of the fact that I made that choice from that place and this is what’s unfolding. So it’s not about this idea of, “Oh, I always have to hear the voice of my soul, and I always have to follow my soul.” But it’s just—I have found life moves with a certain amount of grace and levity and ease and beauty. There’s a lot more space when I take that time to delve in and really follow that voice.

CP: Yes. It’s funny how we can actually, when we’re connected, create a feeling of time and space, expand it. Things kind of slow down.

MW: Yes.

CP: Well, first of all, I love the fact that you’re a Harvard divinity scholar and you said “fist pump.” [Laughs]

MW: [Laughs]

CP: I just love the moderne, this is how we’re going. It’s just all kind of there. I feel like you’re totally feeling authentic and true to who you are, and I hear you. I think it’s a strong message. I think there’s really—it’s funny how it ends up being that to be truly spiritual is to be human.

MW: It’s a paradox.

CP: Right? The incarnated human being. I love that. Well, that’s what you’re saying, right?

MW: Yes, I mean, what I’ve found in my own personal journey was that I was highly disassociated from my body as a teen and then growing up, 1) because of physical abuse that happened. I know a lot of women who were struggling just as much with feeling disassociated with their bodies as I am and they didn’t have abuse. It’s because they didn’t have a family or a culture or an idea of the body that allowed them to be fully in it.

What I found was that my spiritual path was really in the opposite direction than a lot of the spiritual paths that I encountered as a teen. Rather than really trying to transcend the body, it was actually about being fully embodied, about really coming into the body. I realized that part of how disassociation was serving me was that you can not know and you can be in this state of, “Oh, who am I, what am I going to do?” when you’re disassociated. When you really come into your body, when you really—when you’ve got your ear to your pelvis, you’re just fully, fully, here, it’s very difficult not to know who you are, very difficult not to know exactly what you need and what you want.

And that kind of truth, that kind of power is actually, I think, on a very real level, scary for a lot of us. Because it comes with it, then, the weight of following through with that knowing. And some of us aren’t ready for that, or we want to play that hide-and-go-seek game of, “I think I know…” and all this kind of stuff. When we really start getting disciplined about coming into the body and being present, it’s incredibly difficult not to hear exactly who we are and what we need and what we want to do.

That’s a whole process for so many of us, and it looks different for every one of us, what it means to be embodied or to come back into our bodies. For some of us, we have a lot of shame we have to let go of. Others of us, physical traumas. And some of us, it’s just forgiveness for being human, you know? And others, just [having] some kind of physical practice that allows us to really be embodied—walks or exercise or sex that’s really good and really brings us back to life and present.

CP: Totally.

MW: Yes! You’re like, “Yes, I hear you.”

CP: Now we’re talking about sex, I love it.

MW: [Laughs]

CP: You know, it just feels so feminine. I mean, this is what I’m saying about—I hate to get on my Emerging Women soapbox here, but hey, I’ve got the platform. But it’s just another example of how the new spirituality, so to speak—and I actually feel like spirituality itself is in an evolutionary process, and that it’s now going to have more of an integrated and feminine approach. It seems like that’s an evolution right now. Who knows, a masculine approach might yet be another evolution as we get closer and closer.

MW: Yes. I hope!

CP: Yes, you know? Jeez. Yes.

MW: That’s an incredibly significant aspect of my initial experience with religion and spirituality: the apparent jaw-dropping lack of not only women’s voices, but also women’s physical presence in places of spiritual authority. That, to me, was kind of like the elephant in the room. It’s like, “Why aren’t we talking about this? And why isn’t this something that we’re really seeking to find balance with?”

But then also, as I was talking about, the presence and the significance and the sacredness of the body—that was also incredibly missing. I think that what we’re all hungering for, including men—I know so many men who are starving for a more embodied experience of the divine and more embodied spirituality and more balanced spirituality that doesn’t just focus on light but also really holds the dark.

So it’s all of those dualities. Rather than having them be one in a dichotomy or a hierarchy, like one being above the other—so God above human, man above woman, light above dark, all of those dualities, angel above human being, whatever dwelling. The radical evolution that I’ve seen, that I’ve experienced, was when I mentioned the practice of that love that renders us all equal. So it renders all of that equal, so there isn’t this hierarchy.

We’re actually radically standing on the same—we’re all eye to eye. An angel is just as significant as we are. We’re totally eye to eye. Or whatever you want to describe: man, woman; masculine, feminine; dark, light. All of those things that we have seen as being dualities, it’s really bringing them together and seeing how significant and important it all is.

CP: Right. Of course. Without the interplay between the polarities, that’s just part of it.

MW: Right. But we haven’t been really acknowledging that in a spiritual way for about 2,000 years. [Laughs]

CP: Totally! I know, right? What are they called? Yugas, right? That’s another reason why I feel strongly about relishing it a little bit, because for the last, I would say, 100 years especially, at least in our culture, it seems to have totally been skewed in one direction, to a point where I feel like the masculine is almost become kind of a caricature of itself. Do you know what I mean by that?

And so I don’t want to just skip to the nondual world where we’re all just integrated. It’s like, “OK, hang on a second here. Let’s really celebrate and see what happens when the feminine is really exalted,” you know?

MW: Oh yes, I don’t mean that it all becomes one soupy pot.

CP: Oh no, I’m just continuing the conversation. I know you weren’t saying that, but I’m just saying—well, in the end, there will be balance. No, I know what you’re saying, girl! You’re totally all about this!

MW: Yes. I’m so supportive and have been so excited to hear from men in my generation who are really talking about rebirthing the masculine and a new masculinity that has incorporated the feminine. So it isn’t that hyper kind of thick throat, over-muscled—I’m seeing one of those gym guys, you know. Like a hyperbole of the masculine.

It’s more a masculine that has the yin-yang of—it has this deep appreciation and capacity to worship the divine feminine. It really understands the worth and the crucial, crucial need for the feminine in the world, which we haven’t seen the masculine honor and acknowledge in very concrete ways in any of the realms of our culture.

CP: Well, we haven’t even—I feel like as a woman, I don’t feel like I’ve done enough to acknowledge the feminine, truthfully.

MW: Yes. And that’s where we have to start. That’s brilliant that you mention that, because that really is where we have to start, with ourselves. And really [look] at the vulnerable and the aspects of us that receive and the intuitive powers—even, like what I was mentioning with the soul-voice meditation, contemplation.

Contemplative prayer is really a feminine form of prayer. It’s going within. We focus a lot [on] the external worship and the external ways of what spirituality looks like, but at the end of the day, for me at least, the most significant thing is about going within and daring that dark terrain that exists within us of finding the light that we can only get by turning inward.

It’s an uncelebrated courage, really, that effort of shutting out the voices that are so loud outside of us. Shutting those out and really trusting, “No, I’m going to listen to this very quiet, unassuming voice inside of me, despite what anybody in my life wants to say. I’m going to trust my voice inside of me.” That, to me, has been my way of honoring the divine feminine, by practicing that daily.

CP: Yes. Well, we can get that soul meditation. There’s a version of it on your website? I saw something there.

MW: Yes, yes. Hay House produced the soul-voice meditation, and it’s just free on my website. You can just go to MegganWatterson.com. It’s right there on the home page.

CP: OK. Cool. And then, you also have an event coming up, right? Your REVEAL, that’s in New York?

MW: Yes. It’s in New York City at [the] NYU Center for Spiritual Life. It’s basically a large calling-out to any woman who really feels a sense of being a spiritual misfit and being called, at this point, to live her life in alignment with that voice of truth. It’s an urban spiritual retreat, I like to call it. It’s a day when we get to practice that effort of getting spiritually naked. So we get to practice in a safe, really supportive environment to just be the essence of who we are. And there’s a whole lot of dancing, because that, for me, is one of the truest forms of worship and prayer. So we have a ton of dancing all day, and we have ritual, and we have fiery women who get up and talk and share their truth and offer spiritual tools. It’s my favorite day of the year. It’s always like a wedding for my soul every year. I love it.

CP: Cool. Well, great. It was so good to connect. So great to talk to you.

MW: Yes, thank you for this.

CP: Yes, thank you. Thank you for your time. And we will see you also at our retail event, the Power Party.

MW: Yes! I’m very excited for that night. That feels like it’s going to be incredibly fiery.

CP: Yes. You’re bringing it. Good. [Laughs] OK, thank you Meggan! Bye bye.

MW: Thank you.

[ew-audio-download headline=”Free Audio Download” subheadline=”Power Practices, Vol. 1 Women Who Are Changing the World”]

She is also a certified Integrative Coach through The Ford Institute For Transformational Training, and the author of a new book called: Jump… and Your Life Will Appear. In Jump Nancy gives a step-by-step guide to clearing the path ahead so you can let go and make the change you need the most. Through a series of effective exercises, Nancy walks the reader through their fear, ushers them up to the moment of jumping, and helps navigate what awaits on the other side.

In today’s episode, Nancy and I speak about:

• The concept of Jump, and how this came to being in her own life
• Her shift from projecting perfectionism to becoming more vulnerable
• How to know when we are not aligned in our life
• Getting to the root, uncovering Shadow Beliefs and transforming them into Empowering Beliefs
• The idea of the ‘Graceful Exit’ and the additional work that needs to be done after we jump

Tune in and listen to “Jump…and Your Life Will Appear” with the empowering and courageous: Nancy Levin.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript:

Welcome, Nancy!

Nancy Levin: Hi Chantal!

CP: Hi! It’s so exciting to be talking to you today about your new book. For those of you out there who don’t know this, Nancy and I are actually quite good friends. Nancy lives in Boulder, so this is quite exciting for us to be talk and to be supporting her book launch at this point. It’s just so fun.

NL: Thank you!

CP: Yay! So I’m thinking that we should start with the title, and then maybe that will reveal more about your personal story and why you came to this. Jump … and Your Life Will Appear. When I first felt into that, first of all, I got scared, because I’m definitely one that feels like I need to feel safe before I do anything risky. And then the other piece was it was exciting, and [I] felt that it was perhaps the better way to go because no matter what, your life is coming anyway, so might as well jump in with two feet. So tell me a little bit about what you mean by the title, and how you came to this book.

NL: Well, the title really came from the concept that—you mentioned feeling safe, and most of us feel safe in certainty, in what we know, and then what already is. And what I’m asking the readers to do is take a bit of a reframe and realize that there’s actually much more possibility and opportunity available when you actually jump out into uncertainty. Because that’s when your life has the power to change and you can live into a new way of being in the world. Our present is really a culmination of all of our past choices and decisions, and so in the present, we have the power to change our future by making different choices and different decisions.

So in my own personal story, my Jump that weaves throughout the book is leaving an 18-year marriage. And for me, it was devastating. It was terrifying. It was unfathomable for a really long time, until I actually took the steps that are in this book. It wasn’t until after I was on the other side of it that I was able to look back and see, “Oh, here are the things I actually did that got me through this,” and then realize that they were actually applicable to other people in any other major change that they were making, whether it was changing a job or whether it was moving to a new city.

And so it was important to me to document my own journey that way. So my story really began in that I was—even though in the outside world, I was projecting this image of perfection, and my motto had been, “Never let them see you sweat,” and I had been managing the perceptions of others and everyone thought I was happy and perfect and had this perfect marriage, and all of this, the truth was that things were really crumbling inside for me and in my home life. And I overcompensated by really pouring my whole self into my work and the world.

I’m currently, and have been for the last 12 years, the event director at Hay House. So [I’m] producing these events around the world with these luminaries in the field of self-empowerment and personal growth and inspiration, motivation. And yet, while their teachings were sort of landing in me by osmosis, I wasn’t really able to think into them until I was in my own personal crisis and needed to reach out and ask for help.

What happened was in 2008, I was on my way home from a business trip and discovered that my husband of nearly 18 years had read my journals. And this was devastating to me because I really feared any sort of exposure, and he was really going for the jugular with wanting to expose me and expose my truth. I knew in that moment that I had a choice. I could either just numb out and go back to sleep and stay and be the people-pleaser and twist myself into this place of sublimating all of my desires to fulfill all of his, which is what I’d done most of our marriage. Or I could wake up and get about the business of making change and focusing on the healing of myself, not the changing of him and not the fixing of our marriage. That was, for me, the big jump.

CP: So you had—this was a crisis. Anybody that’s kept a journal knows that this is—I remember when you presented this at Emerging Women. The whole audience just went, [gasps]. It was like a breath of craziness to imagine that. And I’ll tell you, I think it doesn’t even matter what was in the journal, but just the fact that you feel like you might be writing privately to yourself and holding yourself through those pages, and to have them unwilling exposed to another. I think just that is—I can’t even imagine how painful.

NL: Yes, that was beyond painful, completely devastating. And the next day, I actually destroyed over 70 volumes of my journal. I destroyed them all. And I’d been writing since I was 11 years old, and it was really what had saved me much of my life, my writing. I didn’t actually start writing again for quite some time. I would at first write and then rip it all up and throw it away, and then write on my computer and carry my thumb drive with me everywhere. And then finally, when we were separated and I was in my own safe space, I started writing on paper again, in a book.

The time when I wasn’t writing wasn’t fully expressed. I wasn’t really able to process everything that was going on for me, because all along, that really was my personal practice. And I almost don’t know what I think or feel until I’m writing it.

CP: That is another thing I want to dig into, the fact that you had 70 volumes to even burn is remarkable. I want to hear more about that as a practice. But let’s keep digging in here, because here’s juice here.

But the other piece is that you were in a marriage where you were sad throughout the marriage. Maybe not throughout the whole marriage, but it got to a point where you felt that it was off. But you had not communicated this to your husband?

NL: Correct. This person who I am now—I would love to have been this person who I am now throughout my marriage. Although this person would never have been in that marriage, which is the truth. And, you know, at the time, when I realized I was not happy, what happened was the truth came out sideways. I wasn’t able to be honest with myself. I wasn’t able to be honest with him. I didn’t have the consciousness that I have now.

So I did the best I could with what I had at the time. And I now understand that the biggest betrayal is really the betrayal of ourselves, are the moments that we abandon ourselves when we are, for whatever reason, thinking that we are in service of saving another. When I met my husband—and I say this on stage at Emerging Women—it was really as if he [got] me high. I am broken, and I said, “Great! I’m superwoman. I will fix you.” And the truth is that all of our core wounds were a match made in heaven.

There was so much in me, from aspects that I now see in my early childhood. I had a brother who was very sick who died, so “broken.” And so I spent much of my life seeking out broken people to save and to fix and to heal. What was my motivation, what was my intention? That was the way that I was seeking external validation. That’s the way that I was trying to find love. And there was so much in my marriage around filling a void in my family. There was almost like an adoption ceremony. My ex-husband had no family, and so we brought him into my family to sort of fill a space in some way.

There was so much more of that going on in my marriage than there was what we think of as marriage. There was a lot of me having to step over my own desires in service to what he needed, because of the kind of attention that he needed. And I was a willing participant in that for a long time, until I no longer was.

CP: You know, I think there’s something in you book where you talk about, “How do you know when something is off?” And I’d like to hear to talk more about that, but I’m curious—before we do that, I want to ask this prequel to that question: Do you think that your family knew? So your husband didn’t know, yet you knew because you were writing about it. But what about your family? Did anybody in your life know?

NL: No one knew the real truth of anything, because I’d never revealed my discontent or my concern to another person. However, after the fact, my mother was the first one who said to me, “You know, we lost you. And we saw what was happening,” but my mother didn’t want to risk our relationship to take a step, to get in the way in my marriage. And she regrets that now, and I tell her not to regret it, because I’m now a firm believer that everything happens as it’s meant to for my soul’s evolution. Yes, she definitely knew.

CP: I ask that because I find that, especially with women who have this perfectionistic [attitude] that it’s not just we perfectionists that are caught in the trap. Other people learn to depend on that imagery as well. And as long as you’re keeping up the charade, people are like, “OK, well, we’re keeping this going, this is great for all of us.” And there’s that kind of pressure.

NL: Yes, I mean, that’s a big thing. It was really something for me to understand when, like I was saying before, I reached out and asked for help from the people around me—my family, my closest friends, and much of my community at Hay House—they were the people I feared revealing myself to the most, and yet they were the ones who rallied around me the fastest.

And that was shocking to me, because for so long, I really believed that I was loved for what I did for all of them, and that I was very busy earning their love. And it wasn’t until I really got clear that, “Oh, I am actually loved. They love me. I’m loveable just for who I am, not for what I do.” It sounds very simplistic to say, but when you are someone who, like me, for most of my life, had been so connected and committed to chasing all these gold stars and to getting all this external motivation. It was really a revelation for me to understand that I needed to resolve internally first what I was trying to achieve externally.

CP: Right. Because all those people thought you were happy.

NL: All those people thought I was happy. All those people thought I—and, really, the truth is for a long time I really just thought happiness and fun were for other people. I wasn’t even connected to any sense of my own happiness for a long time.

CP: Right. You were lucky enough to have this deep connection with yourself when you knew it was off. So you were journaling into it. I find sometimes it’s hard to know.

NL: I think it’s hard to know, too, but I do believe that we know when we’re out of alignment. We know when we’re out of integrity with ourselves. The first step in this book is admitting to yourself what you already know. I’m not saying that we all necessarily have deep, dark secrets and skeletons in our closets. It doesn’t have to be something so dramatic as that. But I really believe that we all know, when we get quiet, when it’s just you and you, you know where you are out of alignment with your truth.

So the first step is really coming clean with yourself. And then the second step is to tell the truth to someone’s face. Because there’s something that happens when you can’t stand fully revealed with another. It relieves so much pressure. It’s like you’re letting off steam out of a valve. I say “someone’s face” because it really does need to be someone you trust and who know has your best interesting at heart and is holding you at your highest.

And these people who were around me during this very difficult time—I realized that they became almost like a scaffolding around me while I rebuilt my courage and my self-esteem and my self-confidence. I was able to draw on their collective strengths and cumulative support that I, at the time, didn’t have enough of for myself. So that was critical for me.

CP: OK, so you’ve recognized something is off. You tell somebody safe, which is hard to do, right?

NL: It is hard to do.

CP: I’m telling you, I have a hard time—and one of your practices is write about something you can’t even write about.

NL: Yes. [Laughs]

CP: Talk to me about that.

NL: I do that often in writing workshops, and it’s fascinating to me how many people will then come up to the mic and share that one.

CP: Right. It’s almost like—I’m not a journaler. I just never have been. I’m a thinker, I’ll sit and think and meditate and contemplate for lots of periods. But I’m just curious, the writing—it’s so vulnerable. I wonder, even after hearing your story about your husband reading your journal, is there something about that? Why is it revealing if only I’m going to read it? Why is that a practice instead of just telling somebody?

NL: Listen, I tell people all the time, “Write it and burn it. Write it and tear it up.” I’m not necessarily a proponent of, if you don’t feel safe, saving all the writing. But I do believe that there is—and especially if you can do it with your hands, on paper, not on a computer—definitely a difference in the transmission of connecting.

There’s a different way that you drop into your heart when you’re actually writing hand-on-paper. And there’s a way that you can let stream of consciousness flow. There’s a way you can do a clearing of yourself. There’s a way that there’s an unveiling, that the cobwebs start to move and you can start to see things in a way that I will say that I haven’t been able to do when it’s just meditation and contemplation. There’s something else that happens, there’s another deeper level. There’s a different kind of explanation that happens when it’s on the page for me.

CP: Yes, and coming back to that initial point, I feel like writing is a practice for you, that’s just been with you for so long.

NL: Yes. It has been. And like I said, I’ve been writing since I was 11 years old. I moved to Boulder to get my Master’s in poetry at Naropa. That’s what moved me here from New York City. So it’s definitely a long-time piece of me.

CP: What I love about it, and what I think is interesting when you say, “How do you know something is off?” I find that when you write stuff down, you can’t hide. You build an intimacy with yourself, and that’s when you find out something’s off.

NL: Yes. It’s funny, like Louise Hay always says, “Your relationship with yourself is the longest relationship you’re going to have in your lifetime. Better make sure it’s a damn good one.” And I feel that that’s really accurate, and I feel that that has been my own personal work through this whole time of leaving the marriage, getting divorced, looking at how all of that reorganized my identity and my being and who I am in the world if I’m not that and if I’m this, and what all these different things mean. And so much of them has been focusing on my relationship with myself.

CP: You mentioned that this was a long time coming. It was a long process, and in your book, you’re kind of going back many, many times between your husband after the journals were cracked. And then you talk about that we find benefits in holding on to things that don’t serve us. What do you mean by that?

NL: There’s a pay-off. There’s got to be a pay-off or we wouldn’t do it. Let me just back up a little bit. So right when I got separated, a very dear friend of mine and author and mentor Debbie Ford, who died last year, she invited me to come do her three-day shadow process emerging weekend as a participant. I produced her events for years, but she said, “You’re going to come and you’re going to do this workshop as a participant.”

So that was really a major shift for me, to go from one side to the other, from producer to participant, and to really dig in and start looking at things. And that was the first time I was able to [ever] link the words “divorce” and “me” together as even an idea. And through that shadow work, I actually went on to go get certified in her year-long coaching training program.

One of the fundamental pieces of this work is that we have underlying commitments. So even though we say we want something on the outside, there’s actually something that is perhaps even unconscious that we’re more committed to that’s actually driving us. So this is the part about the pay-off. There’s something that’s keeping us, whether it’s keeping us stuck, whether it’s keeping us attached, whether it’s keeping us in a situation we say we don’t want to be in, the truth of the matter is we’re actually committed to something that we’re getting there. And it’s different for all people in all situations. But there’s something that’s keeping us there, otherwise we really would be liberated.

CP: I hear you. I’m just wondering, doesn’t that confuse with alignment? How do you decide, “This is not serving me,” if I’m getting benefits? What’s the fine—do I feel it in my body? Is there some other signal? Because if I am getting something from it, wouldn’t I just be like, “Well, that feels like it’s in alignment.” What’s that special sauce?

NL: [Laughs] The special sauce.

CP: You know, the sauce!

NL: Well, what it really is is that these underlying commitments are really based in these shadow beliefs. So when we’re really young—like I mentioned about my brother dying. So when we’re really young, events and circumstances occur that we are too young to process and digest. So we make them mean something negative about us.

For example, my brother was sick, he died. I, at two years old, was imprinted with this shadow belief of, “If I am imperfect, I will die.” Thus the quest for perfection is born. That’s what started driving me through most of my life. So it’s almost like there are blinders on with this underlying commitment to stay perfect in the eyes of others.

So the benefit I was getting was something external, in that people were seeing me the way that I wanted to be seen. Because I didn’t even know myself, so how is anyone else going to know me? And I was very committed to being closed and shut down and covered up at the time.

So what we want to do is we want to actually go back in time and see where these shadow beliefs were formed, where these commitments were formed, and unconceal them and then move them from disempowering to empowering. So that’s the reframe, that’s the switch. When we see what’s really driving us, what’s really the underlying commitment, when we see that it’s actually disempowering, the special sauce is actually to turn it on its ass and ask the question, “How can I turn this into an empowering belief and action?”

CP: As you’re talking, there’s just so many jumps in this. I thought it was one jump—you left your marriage, finally—but it’s actually—and you do talk about this, that it’s inch by inch, but they’re like tiny little jumps. Because that’s kind of a big jump, to be able to just call yourself on your own shit, that this isn’t working, and change it when you’re addicted to people loving you for what you do.

NL: It was huge for me. It was really a massive shift for me. In the book I tell the story of flying across the country to get Wayne Dyer’s briefcase that he left somewhere in the middle of the night. My intention and motivation at the time were to do it to get the accolades, to get the gold stars, to be loved, to be amazing, to be all that.

And I can look now and say, “Wow, I don’t have that in me anymore. I don’t have that in me anymore.” I might still fly across the country for the briefcase, but it would be for a whole other set of reasons. Not to get love.  So I guess the question now that I’m really living with is, “Am I doing this to get love? Or am I doing this to give love?” I’m no longer operating out of the place that I really need to do anything to get love.

CP: Amen, sister. [Laughs] That’s sinking deep. You talk about a graceful exit, and it’s funny that you use the word “exit.” I guess in all cases, we’re leaving something behind. What do you mean by “having a graceful exit”? I mean, sometimes don’t you just have to burn it and freaking walk away, or peal out?

NL: [Laughs] I think the important thing, to me, about this book is that so many other books and programs and whatever leave you sort of at the jump. And it was important to me that out of 10 steps, “jump” was number 8, that there was still two steps left. Because there is the unexpected tension of opposites after the jump.

So much of this is about being able to really surrender to the grief of what was, even if you are completely thrilled to be in the new life. But there still is the processing of what was left behind. It’s naïve to think that you’re just going to land in the land of new and that everything’s going to be free and clear. So it was important to me to include pieces here about—really, it’s about the liminal period. It’s about the space between “no longer” and “not yet.”

And this is really where our resilience resides, and this is really where, if we can take time to cherish that in-between time instead of rushing like most of us want to do, then we are more prepared for the unforeseen opportunities and surprises and experiences that begin to open up. We’re more prepared to say “yes,” which is the last chapter, “Say Yes … And Then Say It Again … And Again.” But I think you can’t get there without recognizing and honoring the full range of grief, heartbreak, and joy.

CP: Right. Yes. You know, I’m curious, because this was a while ago for you, the jump that you made, but it sounds like there’s more than one jump here. There were lots of jumps on the way. But I’m curious to see—you’ve done the Debbie Ford, you’ve done the shadow work. You actually published a book a few years ago, your book of poetry, right?

NL: Yes.

CP: And you’re still at Hay House. But it feels like there’s—I don’t know, it feels like you’re in the middle of a jump right now. Can you talk to us about that? I’m feeling it, girl!

NL: [Laughs] You can feel it? You can feel it through the phone?

CP: I’m feeling it through the phone! This book was supposed to be self-published, and now it’s picked up. What’s happening?

NL: Yes, it’s fascinated. So I self-published this book with Hay House’s self-publishing division, Balboa Press, and it came out last month. Then, after two weeks of being out, Hay House made me a deal for it and it’s rereleasing a launching with Hay House next month. [Laughs] That blew my mind. It was not expected at all. It didn’t happen with my last book. I never expected it with this book.

My coaching practice has taken off, my speaking engagements, my teaching, which is all stuff I love. And it’s ironic because I even talk in the book about last year, wanting to quit my job at Hay House. And then Reid Tracy, the president and CEO of Hay House, who’s a very dear friend of mine in New York, had said to me, “You know, I’m not letting you quit your job. I’ll tell you when you can quit your job.”

CP: Love the Reid!

NL: I know, and I thank him daily now, like, “Thank you for not letting me quit my job last year!” [Laughs] But I was burnt out. I had this whole bout of vertigo. It was like adrenal burn-out. And he was the one who really said to me, “You know, you have set the bar for yourself so high. No one else has set it this high. You have. You’re the one making yourself crazy.”

That was really a big insight to me. And when I realized that my ego was what was driving all of my workaholism, that was a huge wake-up call. And that was when I was willing to bring in more staff on my team, and I was willing to delegate more, I was willing to be more collaborative. Because I realized that I no longer needed to be the only one. I no longer needed to believe that things couldn’t get done if I didn’t do them, or whatever. And that’s a big shift also, for those of us who are perfectionist and those of us who are really driven by outward achievement.

So it taught me a lot, this whole aspect of delegation and collaboration was a mind-blowing game-changer for me. But it’s funny that when, a couple weeks ago when they made me the book deal, Reid called me, like, “OK, in four months, I will give you permission to quit your job.” [Laughs] I know, and it’s hilarious because now I’m like, “Wait a minute, I have support! I have everyone doing—I’ve got this great staff, I have this great team! I don’t know if I want to quit my job anymore! I was scared to jump! Oh no, I’ve got to go back to step 1! What do I have to admit to myself about this?” It’s funny, but it’s true.

CP: Well, it’s funny because I guess you do. That would be a big jump.

NL: That would be a big jump.

CP: That’s a big jump, and I don’t know if the world’s ready for that jump, you know? [Laughs]

NL: I know! And actually, just this morning, I was writing in my journal, and I was writing about this, saying that really the practice here for me is to have faith. It’s not to feel like I have to make any decisions. And the old saying of, “When the fruit is ripe, it will fall,” and I have to just trust that if and when whatever changes need to happen in that regard, it won’t even be a choice. It won’t even be a decision. It will just be organic and it will be obvious. So I’m not in the place of faith and trust that all will be revealed and that I don’t actually have to do anything about it right now.

CP: Right. You could almost replace “jump” with “trust,” because they feel so the same. “Trust and your life will appear.” But sometimes you’ve got to actually jump.

NL: Sometimes you’ve got to take the action! That’s the thing. We’re in this world where everything’s about manifesting and the Law of Attraction. And I’m all game for that, but you’ve got to actually do something. You have to have forward movement. You’ve got to take responsibility and action in your life.

CP: Right. Well, thank you so much for spending the time! It’s been amazing to hear how this has unfolded over the years. You’re such a gift! You’re a gift on so many levels, Nancy.

NL: Chantal, thank you so much. I’m honored to be with you.

CP: Fabulous.

Also, get 10 free audio downloads of your favorite emerging women:

[ew-audio-download headline=”Free Audio Download” subheadline=”Power Practices, Vol. 1 Women Who Are Changing the World”]

An inspirational speaker, former think tank executive and business strategist, she writes weekly at DanielleLaPorte.com, where over a million visitors have gone for her straight-up advice — a site that’s been deemed “the best place on-line for kick-ass spirituality,” and was named one of the “Top 100 Websites for Women” by Forbes. Danielle is a featured presenter at the 2014 Emerging Women Live Conference in New York City.

“You have to want what you want with all your heart… but don’t be attached to how it shows up.”

In today’s episode of Grace & Fire, Danielle and I speak about:

• Desire: how she defines it and the difference between desire and passion
• Practices for identifying and cultivating “Soul Desires”
• How to handle expectations when cultivating your desires
• Having the courage not to compromise and the two qualities she identifies as most important for developing this courage
• The power of feelings versus emotions and their connection to desire
• Her deepest desire for emerging women everywhere

Tune in and listen to Living from Desire with the truly amazing and inspiring: Danielle LaPorte.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript

Chantal Pierrat: Welcome, Danielle LaPorte!

Danielle LaPorte: Thank you, Chantal. We’re finally here.

CP: I know. Finally here. God, I’m so excited. I can barely contain myself. I don’t know if you know this, but before I started Emerging Women, I read The Fire Starter Sessions, and they had a huge impact on me, and boy, did that light a fire under my “boo-tay.” It was fantastic. I’m even more excited to talk to you now, because here’s my first question: Who are you? And where did you come from? I mean, that’s what I kept asking! I kept asking that as I was reading the book. I was like, “Who is this person?!” Can you give us a little bit of your background before we jump into all the other things we need to talk about?

DL: Yes, OK. I’m not from Earth, so let’s start there.

CP: [Laughs] I didn’t think so!

DL: But I’ve shown up. [Laughs] An important nugget in my bio is that my mom and dad were really young when they had me. My mom got knocked up in high school. And having really young parents was just what I needed and an influence on me. So they were taking me to hippie parties and hockey games. They were growing up while I was growing up, and that made a difference, I think. I got toilet trained in the ladies room of my mother’s community college.

Jump cut to [me] in my 20s, and I haven’t graduated from high school, but I talked my way into every job and I’m running a think tank in Washington, D.C. That was weird. Jump cut to more companies. I can’t believe I’m old enough to say this now, but then the Internet came. [Laughs] The World Wide Web happened and I was playing online and finding my voice and [had] a big failed business and a lot of anguish around that. Then [I] rose from the flames [with] The Fire Starter Sessions.

CP: So not only did you not graduate from college—I didn’t realize this—but you didn’t graduate from high school?

DL: No. My mother got pregnant in high school. But I did finish high school, yes.

CP: Ultimately you did finish high school. OK. Give me something to hold on here, because I’m like, “How amazing are you to have accomplished so much and to be consulting executives and running a think tank without that educational background?” It’s quite remarkable.

DL: Thanks. And I use that to my advantage. When you’re in Washington D.C., every week somebody says, “Harvard? Yale?” I was like, “No.” And then they think, “Wow, you must be really smart.” And I just go, “Mm.”

CP: Right. No, it’s amazing. So I read The Fire Starters, and now the next book here is The Desire Map. And I’m sensing a theme here—fire and desire, and it feels very hot and emotion-sensual-oriented. And we’re going to get into that. But maybe we could start with, what do you mean by desire, exactly?

DL: I mean everything. I think desire is an evolutionary impulse. I think it’s the underpinning of consciousness. It doesn’t happen unless you want it to happen. Desire is driving everything. It drives us on a banal, mundane level. It drives us on a cosmic level. It’s driving everything we do.

CP: So help me understand what you mean a little bit more. I’m thinking of passion, for instance. [Are] desire and passion the same thing? Is desire everything, or is it somehow distinct from things like passion or wants? Like, “I want something.” Is that a desire?

DL: Desire and passion aren’t the same thing. Desire is always there. And you can have a passionate desire, or you can have a lukewarm desire. You can have desires, wants, cravings that aren’t good for your growth. Well, everything is good for your growth, but I think everybody knows the meaning when I say that. And you can have desires and passions that are absolutely all about integration and fullness and being wide awake—really healthy stuff, the good stuff, the light stuff, the positive stuff.

So it all gets back to what’s under this, [and] what’s under the under is about feelings. I think everybody is desiring, consciously or unconsciously, to feel a certain way. We are desiring, consciously or unconsciously, a preferred state of being. And it is all about attaining being in that preferred state of being as often as possible and as long as possible. Sometimes you can’t keep it up for very long, and that’s life. That’s life.

CP: The thing about desire—I love the way you’re approaching it. It feels very inside-out. Like you said, figuring out the state of being that you want. I find sometimes I get a little triggered with, “What are your desires? What are your desires?” Women don’t ask for what they need and it just sort of has this feeling of—which I totally agree with, women tend not to ask for what they need.

But if you just kind of look at it, it’s like, “Well, what do I want? I want a BMW or I want this or I want that.” And I wonder how we can peel what you’re talking about, desire, which feels so much more profound when you talk about it, in terms of what state of consciousness is that going to get you, to have that BMW, for instance. Do I go backwards, back into the state of consciousness? Or do I start with the state of consciousness and go out? Because maybe I don’t want a BMW, you know what I’m saying?

DL: Exactly. You start with a feeling. Everything starts with a feeling, because maybe you don’t want the BMW. So this is why people hear “desire” and they think, “BMW” and “soul mate” and “six figures” and whatever, right? And that’s a layer of desire. It’s just the outward layer. There’s no judging—no judging!—but get clear if that is really going to give you the feeling—what I call your “core desired feelings,” or your preferred state of consciousness that you want.

Let’s say you get in there, you “desire map,” and one of your core desired feelings is vitality. Which, by the way, is one of the most common feelings that I’m seeing people wanting. It’s this whole family of vitality, energized, lit up. And if one thing—one of many things—that’s going to make you feel vitality is a Beemer, go get the Beemer. Move mountains, get the car. Get the car. Get the guy. Get the money. Go for it if you’re going to feel the way you want to feel. And all sorts of great things happen when you feel the way you want to feel.

Or, the other side of this story is, you’re going to realize that BMW has nothing to do with you feeling energized.  It has everything to do with you wanting to please somebody else, get the love you never got. It’s about feeling powerful, and actually wanting to feel powerful is not at your core, it’s just this other thing. And you’re like, “I don’t need the Beemer. I’m good. I just need a bus pass and a bunch of other things.”

CP: Right. Well, then how does it tie into expectations?

DL: That’s such a great question. Nobody’s asked me that, ever. Expectation, yes. The reason why this is so hot, the word, [the] concept “expectation,” is because it brings out the paradoxical nature of desire. Because here’s the thing: you have to want what you want with all your heart—want it, like squeeze your cells with desire, want it. Don’t apologize for it. Declare for it. Ask for it, demand, command, beg for it. Just want it. But don’t be attached to the idea. Or don’t be attached to how it shows up. Actually, that’s a very good qualifier, let me rephrase that. Don’t be attached to how it show up.

So I think we should get very attached to those desires, to the desired state. I want to feel love. I want to feel union. I want to feel connection. I want to feel vitality. And I want it more than anything in my whole life. I am committed to that, which really is a devotion to consciousness. And, hey God, hey life, hey Brahman, whoever, hey dude, how do you want to give it to me? On a silver platter, I hope, but it could come in various ways. It could come through the BMW. It could come through walking every day. The point is you get to feel the way you want to feel more often than not.

CP: So in that feeling, in cultivating that desire—and I’m saying “cultivating” because this is sounding like a practice.

DL: Thank you, it is, yes.

CP: And, of course, from your book, there [are] all kinds of exercises. But as a practice of cultivating the desire, it’s really hard not to have expectations.

DL: I know! I know, it’s really hard. [Laughs]

CP: You know? I’m like, “I’m putting all this practice in!”

DL: Yes. It’s actually hard to not have expectations. It’s excruciating to let them go, actually. Because you’ve got to let go of so much stuff to just be open to what’s going to come, and that’s where you’re going to get a little panicky and you’re going to hyperventilate at, “What if I don’t get it? And what if I have to compromise?”

I hope I don’t have to tell you and anybody who’s listening [that] I know this. I know this. I’m in it. I’m in it every day. I know this! I’m with you. My terror of having to compromise is something I deal with, because I’ve made compromises. I have PTSD from making some compromises in my life. So when I try to stay open to the future, I go, “God, if I have to compromise again, I’m going to fucking die!”

And I have to trust that I will feel the way I want to feel and there will be no compromises. In fact, I’m getting to a place in my own awareness and strength that I know that if I compromise, I’m not going to feel the way I want to feel. So I won’t let it happen. And then I’m also getting to a place in my evolution [where] life isn’t going to let me compromise. I really believe that life has really, really, really got my back. So it’s not going to give me a half-baked cake.

CP: Here’s a question, and maybe you could bring an example of this in from your life: how do you develop the courage not to compromise? Is the desire enough—for lack of a better word—is that your foundation or your prop? Is that a second step? Because I feel connected to my desires, but sometimes I feel, “Wow, I have to compromise because I’m scared.” Even when I have a strong desire.

DL: Courage comes from proof and faith. I think it’s both things. And I think the business world, the motivational world, the logical world, has us operate on proof. And the New Age, metaphysical paradigm has us operate only on faith, and both [are] only half the story. I take courage from—I look at my history, and I say things like, “I pulled that off. I didn’t die. I won. Life came through for me. That worked.”

And I also have to look at—there’s proof in pain. I could write a book just on this, right? You go to that place of, “That reality that I experienced—that relationship, that job, that event, that product, that day, that program, whatever—shocked so severely, that was so painful.” And you’ve really got to go there. How painful was it? How humiliating was it? How much did it let you down? And we don’t want to do that. We do not want to do that. That’s why people go from relationship to relationship, because we don’t want to deal with how painful losing the previous relationship was.

So you go to the proof—the proof of pain and the proof the glory in the past. And then you just have to go to 100 percent pure octane faith that things evolve, the sun is going to come up, the universe does have your back. You have to believe it to see it. Change is possible. You really have to believe that change is possible. With all that proof, you have to believe that change is possible.

CP: Let’s get back to the practice part. So can you tell us—let’s say there are some exercises in the book where you really document what your true desires are, what those states of consciousness are that you want to cultivate—how do I, 1) really, really connect to that, and then 2) there’s a step, like I can’t just walk around with that state of consciousness. Maybe we can. But those desires get turned into something on the outer. And what is that process, from the very beginning? I know the book outlines this and it’s big, but maybe if you could just give it to us in a nutshell, from the identification to the actual outer manifestation of desire.

DL: So how does desire map inside us?

CP: You know, essence.

DL: I get it, totally. Yes. It’s a stream of consciousness about how you want to feel in every year of your life. And I break them down into five areas. Call them whatever you want, just keep it simple. Livelihood, relationships and society, wellness—those are three, I always forget one—and spirit and essence. You know, inner you.

CP: Relationship.

DL: Relationship. And I guarantee you—well, first of all, don’t hold back in that process. You want to feel electric, you want to feel turned on, you want to feel close to God, you want to feel powerful, whatever, just get it all out. And I guarantee you that you will see a pattern, that the same feelings that you want to feel in livelihood, finances, wealth, money, job, career, are the same ways you want to feel in that relationship.

So you can narrow it down. You have to narrow that down. You want to get this to identifying three, four, five core desired feelings, and those core desired feelings are driving everything. So you want to let them consciously drive everything. So then it gets down to, here’s the final step. There’s another part of this. So the final step is, what are you going to do today, what are you going to do every day, to feel the way you want to feel?

It’s as practical as [designing] a whole day planner around this. You can use little Post-It notes. You write out your core desire feeling, you put it in your day planner, on your fridge, on your computer monitor, whatever, and you say, “OK, I want to feel sensual. What am I going to do today to feel sensual?” That doesn’t mean you have to take a belly dancing class. You could just wear perfume. You could make a saucy phone call. “What am I going to do today to feel connected to God or lit up or rich or brave or whatever?”

CP: But you’re identifying your desires every day.

DL: You are re-devoting your core desired feelings on a daily basis. [Do] you want to feel good every day or not? But then the other part of this is to be looking at your goals. This is the bigger picture practicality. What are you going to do this year to create those feelings? I’m into year goals, and I’m into very few. I think, you know what? Flat out just accomplish two or three things this year, instead of ten things kind of, “Eh, OK.” Three things? Awesome.

So maybe this year, to feel harmony, you’re going to take a course. You’re going to take a meditation class. Or maybe you’re going to reunite with your estranged father. Or you’re going to have your wedding. Or you’re going to get a dog. Whatever it is. Or you’re going to start a business. It’s all about creating harmony in people’s lives, whether it’s feng shui or relationships. So that’s a big thing.

So now, in the process of identifying your goals, having your goals be the outcome of your core desired feelings—everybody already has investing goals. Let’s call them “pre-desired feeling” goals, before you desire map. BDM, Before Desired Mapping. And you need to look at the goal you’ve been holding in your life long-term and measure them against the awareness of your core desired feelings. So this goes back to your original point: “Do I really want the BMW?” Maybe the answer is, “No.” Maybe the answer is, “Yes, more than ever.”

CP: And the way you measure them is to just sort of imagine that you’ve gotten those goals done, checked off the box, and see if you actually are feeling that state of desire that you’ve identified as your core desire?

DL: Yes. Is that really going to make you feel what you now know you want to feel more than anything? And what I’ve found with people is there’s a lot of quitting that happens after you get clear on how you really want to feel. [Laughs] So it’s dumping the trunk, and it’s quitting jobs, and those things happens.

But then [there are] profoundly subtle revelations. I just heard from a woman who was doing a desire mapping group, getting a bunch of girlfriends together, doing it together, and her revelation was that she was resenting almost everything that she was doing in her life. And a lot of this is probably not uncommon, that we’re just not feeling the way we want to feel a lot of the time. And we’re resenting so many of our commitments, which are really obligations. Obligations are shit. I mean, who wants obligations? We want choices. And we’re just realizing, “Wow, I resent so much of what I do, and this is not how I want to feel.” It was huge for her.

CP: Yes, I definitely feel—in my own life, I know that I’ve set goals that are not connected to my deepest desires. They’re connected to my brain and maybe societal expectations, but I know that.

DL: Yes. I know it, too. It’s part of my book. I was getting places and not really feeling like celebrating when I crossed the finish line. I was like, “Wow, this does not feel fantastic.” For me, it was about—you know, I’d set these goals, and I would go after them with a force that was frying me. I had to just push, and sometimes you need that force. Oh my God, thank God women, men, humans have that force, because sometimes you need it, like, “Lift!” Or, “Show your fangs,” whatever. But that’s not how I want to live every day.

CP: I want to talk a little bit about emotions, too. I started this by saying, “You’ve got the fire,” and now we’re talking about desire. And just the way you speak, you have a lot of sensuality and emotional energy around you. And I’m curious to see if that is a main source of wisdom for you, that the emotional realm—I mean, desires are linked to emotions, or are they not linked to emotions? How do they differentiate?

DL: Well, I think your desires influence your emotions for sure. And I try to have somebody desire map it. I believe there’s a different between feeling and emotions. So I never once say, “We’re getting clear on your core desired emotions.” We’re getting clear on your core desired feelings.

And in doing my research around this, here’s what I know, here [are] the facts: nobody, nobody can agree on what emotions are and what feelings are. But everybody agrees—most people agree, psychologists and metaphysicians—that there is a difference. There is a difference and it does make a difference. I say that for desire mapping, it doesn’t matter, call them whatever you want. We’re just getting to your preferred state.

Now, what belief is [is] that core desired feelings are something you’ve been longing for for a very long time. They may even have been there with you when you were a child. You can trace them. You go back to your childhood and see how you wanted to feel. One of my core desired feelings is union. That word, that concept has changed a little bit over the years. It went from “connection” to “communion,” and now I’m just like, “The right word, the precise term for me is ‘union.’” And I’ve felt that since I was a very little girl. It was just this longing, like, “I want to know God. And I want to be everybody’s friend. If you’re a new friend, I really, really want to know who you are.”

Emotions, for me, are very fleeting. I can feel 900 emotions in a day. I can feel rage, I can feel [good], I can feel happy, sad. A bunch of them are petty. “Hey, hi, goodbye!” They’re very fleeting. Whereas feelings, the physically desired feelings, are much deeper, much deeper and much more steady. They’re the oceans instead of the mist.

CP: I love that. I love what you said, because my next question was, I’m glad you made the distinction, because I agree. While I value my emotions and I think that they can teach me something if I’m careful with my consciousness and I’m aware, but sometimes I don’t trust them. And sometimes it’s just as much of a reflex, the emotions can be, than someone hitting my knee and my leg going up. So to really put my trust in that, I think I’m definitely going to bet more on what you’re talking about, which is the feelings—

DL: You bring up a great point about trust. I think everybody can identify with [the idea that] we shouldn’t trust our “negative” emotions. Like rage is an emotions, anger is an emotion. You could also say they’re feelings. And we all know if we’re committed to some mindfulness, you don’t want to act out of those places. You want to feel them, you want to move, and you want to do something with them, but you don’t want to be impulsively rageful.

Again, to your point about trust, what about distrust of the happy emotions? I’ve often [felt], “Huh, I felt really happy there, but was that really, like, deep?” [Laughs] And you feel all giddy about something, you feel happy like you’ve got a fix. And you leave and you go, “Oh, I actually feel kind of empty and dirty now.” [Laughs] “That didn’t make me feel what I really want to feel. Actually, I didn’t feel really connected. I didn’t feel really joyful. I didn’t feel really sincere. I didn’t really feel God in that.” So beware of the emotions, love them, but feelings have way more power to them.

CP: You actually say this in your book; you explore the concept of, why do we push good feelings away? Why is that?

DL: What did I say? [Laughs] Because we’re trained to push good feelings away! This comes from—

CP: Is it guilt?

DL: This whole system is against feeling our own power. We’ve got a legacy—decades, generations—of having our feelings invalided. “Don’t be too powerful. Don’t be too sexual. Don’t be too insightful. My God, don’t be too intuitive, too psychic. Don’t be too angry.” It’s all bumpy-dumpy, because we don’t want to make each other comfortable. We’re just bumping up against each other in these little suitcases called “identities” and “egos.” And so, bumpy-dumpy. Don’t.

And if you don’t, if you play along with those rules, if you are a certain way, then you get rewards. You get to be loved, you get to be liked, you get harmony, you get balance. You get what we all want, which is acceptance and positive attention. So that’s why you push away good feelings, because your good feelings make you more powerful, and you won’t fit in a box anymore. Listen, the ecstasy, joy, those different things [that are] all in the same family—joy will change how you look to the world. It will change what you accept in life.

Once you experience joy—whether it’s something as simple as appreciating a cherry blossom, or it’s an orgasm, or it’s the transcendent joy of forgiveness, whatever it is—you’re not the same person. You’ll be a little bit louder. You might be a little more quiet. You might be less accommodating. Your joy may point to someone else’s pain. So why not just tamp it down? Because if I don’t experience my good feelings, if I just push it away, then I won’t change. And if I don’t change, I’m not going to hurt anyone around me. If I don’t change, I don’t have to make any changes. So we push away the good stuff.

CP: How important is it—you know, you mentioned joy, alongside bliss—to get very detailed on the desire, to really, really pinpoint the right word?

DL: I think it’s really important. But this is my bias, so I can say this. As the author, I will tell you to do whatever works for you. And as an author, words for me are a total erotic turn-on. When I find the right word, I say, “Oh my God, it’s the right word!” And then you write the right sentence and the right paragraph—I can hardly sit still.

But yes, I would say it’s an experiment, it’s an art. It’s not a science. Be full of it and play with it. I can say that you don’t want to be changing your core desired feelings every day, because these aren’t emotions. They’re not coming and going. They are deeply rooted things. Some of them—devotions, like, we don’t change partners every day, right? There’s a reason. Consistency is momentum, power.

And my personal experience has been—I’ve had my core desired feelings [for] 10 years now. I started this for myself 10 years ago in my journal. And I’ve changed them three times in 10 years. And I just changed them very recently, so I devoted five years to hanging out with the same core desired feelings. And then I’ve just been through my own huge rebirth process—a very intense divorce; creating all-new programs, products, art; turned my company inside out. I’m not the same person I was a year ago.

And the evolution of my core desired feelings just kind of came to me. Actually it’s about union, not about communion. I’m not going to play it safe and say, “I want to feel the divine feminine,” because everyone knows what that means. I wanted to want Shakti, because I know what Shakti is. It’s not about—my last version was “abundance.” For about four or five years, “affluence” was my word. It wasn’t just about cash and fluidity and ideas. I really wanted abundance in every [part] of my life. I really looked to that concept forever. I just thought abundance was [key].

And now what I [really] want, my new and improved core desired feeling, is “golden.” I want to feel golden. I want to feel like the golden girl. I want the love. I love god. I only wear gold. I want to give gold. I love the exchange. And I love the divinity that’s in the golden aura. So I got to “golden” and I was like, “Oh yes, that’s it. Oh my God.” And there’s another, which I can’t remember right now.

CP: It’s perfect, because as you took us through that example, I could feel the difference and the alignment as you landed on “golden,” as you were talking about it. It’s really important to fine-tune this so we’re completely aligned. Otherwise, it’s just not the same. “Affluence,” “abundance,” and “golden,” they’re just three totally different feelings.

DL: And they all served me at the time, very well. Oh, I know my other two now: “joy,” joy has been with me for a while, that’s not going anywhere; and “truth.” Really, more than anything, I want the truth.

CP: I love that, and I love that you stand for that. I think the truth bombs have been—they’re real, man. They’re real. OK, so here’s a question: can you have it all? Let’s say I come up with four core desires. Is it possible to have all of those manifest in our lives at one time?

DL: Wow, you’re good. That’s another question that nobody’s ever asked me. Can you have them all? Yes! Yes! Yes. Why not? Why limit your satisfaction? Yes. And you will get off course. You will get off course, and it’s super useful. It’s actually really necessary. It’s natural get off course. “You know, today’s a shit day.” “I had a shit day”—just to quote some Pink. And you get [back] on. You go, “What am I going to do today to be the joy and be the Shakti, be the union? I didn’t feel any of my things yesterday.”

And this is where you really start to feel like a kick-ass goddess, god of your life. “Yesterday was shit.” Or, you know what, let me get [even] more specific: “Right now is shit. I’m not feeling what I want. What can I do to feel what I know I want to feel? What can I do to generate my core desired feelings? I’m going to make a choice. I’m going to make a conscious choice to take an action that’s going to lead me to joy, Shakti, vitality, whatever.”

And it’s often a doing. Sometimes that doing, getting to where you want to go, is, “I’m going to sit and I’m going to think. I’m going to meditate, I’m going to contemplate and create that preferred state. I’m going to do it through that.” Which seems passive, although we all know it isn’t. Or, “I’m going to do something that looks less passive on the outside and I’m going to go shopping. Or I’m going to give something away. Or I’m going to go for a walk around the lake. Or I’m going to go make a phone call.”

CP: Got it. I have one last question. I guess [I think] what a gift would be for our audience would be some advice, or, what is your deepest desire for women as they are entering into their emerging process? They’re at the start of their fire starter sessions, or they’re just at the start of—they’ve identified their desires, they’re in that no-compromise state, and they’re ready to take it out into the world. But it’s scary. There [are] all these obstacles. It’s hard to stay on task. But that energy of emergence, it’s so juicy and it’s so powerful. What is your deepest desire for women that are in that state?

DL: There’s a lot I could say, and you could ask me this tomorrow and I would say something different, maybe.

CP: That’s why we love you. [Laughs]

DL: Today I say, have the courage. You don’t even have to have the courage, forget that. Let me tell you why I’m rephrasing it. My initial response is, have the courage to feel what you’re feeling. The reason I want to take “courage” out of that statement is because when we say “have the courage,” it creates a lot of fear, actually. “I don’t have the courage, there’s fear.”

Feel what you’re feeling. That’s it. Because if you feel what you’re feeling as you’re emerging, you will feel scared, you will feel power, you will feel bliss, and you will be so alert. You will see what’s behind you. You will have a 360-degree view of what’s in your way, of where the doorways are, and of where the gold is. You will not block your power if you are feeling what you’re feeling, whatever it is. There’s going to be a lot of things that you’re going to feel that you’re going to label negative and scary and positive and new and awesome. Just feel it. That’s where the juice is. That’s the switch you want to flip.

CP: If you feel something that you don’t want to feel, is that failure, like you’ve failed somehow?

DL: No. Oh my God, listen, I just went through a situation where I just [saw] how I avoided getting there. I finally realized I was feeling really vulnerable in this situation. I was actually feeling attacked. And that is something—I have never, never said I’ve felt attacked. And I’ve been attacked! I’ve been in shitty—I’ve been in intense business situations, and for me to go to that place and just go, “OK, really, how am I feeling right now? Oh my God, I feel attacked. I feel vulnerable. I feel scared.” I can see how I’ve designed my life to actually not feel those things.

And once I really felt that, the power on the other side? Fucking incredible. Because I am lucid, I am real, and in that place, I have a 360-degree view. I can see tenderness, I can see the next move, I can see love, I can see compassion. I can see right through the shift. So I designed my life to not feel that, went there, and [now I’m] like, “Wow.” [Laughs] I get smack dab into what I want to feel, which is joy.

CP: Well, thank you so much, Danielle. This was profound and a gift to our audience. Thank you so much for being the personification of grace and fire.

DL: Thank you for making this space, and for really being here. Thank you, thank you.

CP: OK. Take care. More to come at the Emerging Women Live Event in New York.

[ew-audio-download headline=”Free Audio Download” subheadline=”Power Practices, Vol. 1 Women Who Are Changing the World”]

Eliza was a peer-counselor throughout high school and an S.O.S. trained educator for Planned Parenthood. She continued to use these skills working in Providence city schools as a sexual health educator. Eliza has recently co-authored a book titled: Mothering and Daughtering: How to Create a Deep and Enduring Relationship Through the Teen Years with her mother Sil Reynolds. Eliza was a featured presenter at the 2013 Emerging Women Live Conference in Boulder, CO.

In this episode of Grace & Fire, Eliza and I speak about:

• Perfectionism and her battle with her inner critic
• How perfectionism isolates us as women and how she recommends to break these walls
• Advice for Moms to help their daughters cultivate self-acceptance of their bodies
• A final piece of wisdom for girls who are facing their inner critics

Tune in and listen to Freeing Girls from a Culture of Perfectionism with the young and insightful: Eliza Reynolds.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript:

Chantal Pierrat: Welcome, Eliza!

Eliza Reynolds: Well, thank you, Chantal!

CP: Now, tell us where you are right now.

ER: I am in Providence, Rhode Island. It is drizzling outside [and] that typical New England fog that’s settling in. I’m at school at Brown University, finishing up my senior year, and I’m curled up on my couch with my candle and my mug of tea. I’m so excited to be here talking to you.

CP: Nice! Now, you’re in your senior year, and you also just published a book that you co-wrote with your mother.

ER: Yes, ma’am, I did.

CP: And you also are launching, I believe, a website.

ER: Yes, I am. TheWholeGirl.com is the new beginning that I’m really excited about. I come from a background of teaching—actually, we’re in our eighth year of teaching together, my mother and I, and I’m 22, so that’s pretty exciting to have had this legacy of teaching behind us and really be heading into innovating material together as a mother-daughter team.

But as a senior [who’s] graduating, I’m launching my own work, The Whole Girl, which is looking at wholeness versus perfectionism, specifically in teenage girls today. But, gosh, our inner teenage girls never truly leave us. Even though I may be 22, I still feel pretty tied in, and I know, for example, women like my mother do as well.

So it’s for the whole girl in all of us, really. And [it’s about] looking at wholeness as an alternative model to perfectionism and to a pretty rapid and dangerous culture of perfectionism that often gets masked behind other standards or other goals that can be very dangerous. And [it’s about] looking at ways that we can see ourselves live as whole entities, whether it’s not just as a value of our bodies as the center of our identities—where we ourselves look at ourselves in wholeness and work to live for and towards wholeness as an experience.

CP: And do you have personal experience with perfectionism? Do you feel like you’ve been a perfectionist?

ER: Oh, yes ma’am! [Laughs] Oh gosh, yes. I can definitely say perfectionism has been one of my inner demons, among other things. Different traditions call it different things, whether it’s the super ego, to be Freudian, or the inner critic is definitely one, a phrase that speaks very powerfully to me, or if you look at it in Jungian psychology, often we hear the voice of the inner negative mother or the inner negative father. And for me, it’s been a pretty consistent cohabitant of my brain. And I would say that my inner critic, in many ways, has served me [by] kicking my own ass into gear in one of the most awesome ways.

And yet, there came a time that my inner critic was truly running the show, and that I was living in a place where I was being negatively driven from moment to moment, from achievement to achievement, whether it was a conversation with a friend, a school paper, a relationship, a work event. It was never good enough, I was never good enough, I was never enough, according to this voice.

And first of all, it just became such a pain to live with, but I also realized it wasn’t coming from a true place in myself to be living from this voice and to associate this voice, this inner critic, as myself. I thought that was me, that [that] was always the truest expression of myself, rather than one of the many voices that we live with in our heads, these energies that we live with, whether we imagine [them] as an inner counsel that’s always giving us feedback or really kind of a one-on-one relationship of attention with this perfectionistic drive where it’s never good enough, it’s never enough.

I remember I would get up to speak, for example, at a conference or teaching a workshop, as I do very often, and there’s that moment of elation, like, “OK, I’ve reached my audience and they laughed”—that moment where you’re riding a wave of speaking to a group. And I would get off the stage and I’d probably give myself maybe 30 seconds to enjoy it, and then I’d start to strip myself down inside. “Could have done this better, could have done this better.”

And I told myself that criticism was the way that I was going to actually improve myself, and that’s very true, of course. We do need that energy and that voice to a certain extent, because we need this discernment, we need feedback. But when it comes from a place where the thought is really more of a destructive force that I was telling myself was for a higher goal, that I truly lost sight of that higher purpose within myself, and it was nearly breaking me apart every single day. It was almost a constant struggle to tell myself of my own value against the battle with my own perfectionism and my own inner critic.

CP: Right. And when you say that it was a battle, how did you pull yourself out of this? What was the battle like? What was your process like?

ER: Well, I say “battle” because there are a number of battlegrounds that have most explicitly shown up in my life, the body being one very specific one that I’ve done quite a bit of work around. Sometimes I feel like it can be hard to have a concrete idea of perfectionism versus wholeness. How is that actually in my life?

And the body is an embracement of the means for me to look at that. I can see my own perfectionistic drive manifested on my body, whether it’s language—“I have to, I should,” whether it’s “I should run today,” or “I shouldn’t eat that, I should eat this,” instead of tuning in to my own body, what my body wants and trusting its system that creating an exterior standard which, to me, lines up with my inner critic and a perfectionistic cultural guideline that we’re so living from.

Another place that it plays out in the body is black-and-white thinking and these absolutes that I have found myself at different times getting stuck in, whether it’s the idea—it truly frightens me sometimes, when you have those moments when you realize, “Holy shit, I didn’t realize the extent to which I was living from this unconscious belief,” which is terrifying to me. I see it other people but I think, “Oh no, I’m fine.”

For example, I work with body image. “I love my body! Of course, it’s great. No, I’m not even going to engage with that.” And yet to discover, to a certain level, the way in which my inner critic, my perfectionist values have stripped down and broken apart this self-love, to the point where I have a piece of me that goes, “Unless you are attractive, you’re not valuable. Unless you’re sexy, you’re not a woman. No one would even want you,” and letting in these certain internalized messages that come from such perfectionistic culture, that comes from such gender culture, which is at work on me and realize, “Wow,” and have compassion for myself, and internalize that.

And once I concede that in myself—and it really is about consciousness—and allow that to become conscious, allow [myself] to acknowledge that rather than say, “Oh no, I have no issue. Oh no, that’s not going on with me. What am I talking about?” To acknowledge that, then I get to begin to work with it.

And so for me, the first part and the first and most important step of my process in this battle against perfectionism was to clearly identify the voice of this inner critic. Sometimes it was writing a letter to myself from this inner critic just to hear the tenor of [its] voice, a voice that I know so well, and to go, “That voice is not my voice.”

CP: So you would write a letter to yourself from your inner critic?

ER: Yes. Now, it’s a pretty nasty letter, I’ll be honest. Sometimes it comes out in more subtle ways and sometimes it comes out in pretty explicit ways. But I’m a big fan of journaling. So sometimes I would sit down, and if my inner critic was beating me up, I would write it down. I would go, “OK, you know what? We’re going to sit down and we’re going to write this out.”

So I’d write out everything my inner critic was saying, and then I would look at it and say, “OK, that is the voice of my inner critic. There it is. There’s that voice.” But when I hear it going off in my head, I know it’s not me. I know it’s not my essence, my core, my truest self speaking to me. I know it’s my inner critic, which sometimes is valuable and very often isn’t that valuable or needs to be taken [as] a little bit more of a balancing act.

CP: Yes. Do you feel that, in general—I know that, here you are, in college, the heartland in New England, having the New England collegiate experience—as a teenager, and also as a co-ed in the college arena, do you feel like this is more particular towards girls, or do you see it also in boys? And in [what] ways is this manifesting differently in both genders?

ER: That’s a great question. Well, first of all, I say absolutely I see a much larger manifestation of perfectionism within an academic college, [a] very structured and traditionally masculine format. There is no coincidence that we see a huge rise in perfectionism in a society that’s based on patriarchal values. Surprise, surprise. That’s the system that’s been internalized and I think often we have to be careful about throwing out the old, rigid guidelines that we identify with the patriarchy and then not just taking them on under different guises.

I see a lot of really amazing, what you would call empowered women. I’m [in] Gender and Sexuality Studies here at Brown, and so I’m kind of right in the most feminine of the feminine that you can be in the academic system, and yet the standards of rigid perfectionism—where’s the pleasure? Where’s the breath? Where’s the slow meal? Where’s the delicious enjoyment of the body rather than the utter control of the body? [They’re] really, really not present to a level that saddens and shocks me, especially [for] a young generation in their 20s, teens. I have so much hope that there will be a transformation there, and specifically in this academic bubble, I’m not seeing it.

CP: Are you not seeing people identifying with pleasure that way? Or are you not seeing opportunities to engage in it, presented through high school or college, or both?

ER: Both. I’d say that I’m not seeing pleasure or [respect for] time as [having] pauses. It has a more natural rhythms [that are] connected to our body’s needs, to the earth. I’m not seeing any space for that here. I think there are individuals—there are some great programs being offered and analyzed by the department that look at the soul. But those are severely underattended. Maybe five students out of thousands go to that.

There’s not a break there. It’s an achieve, achieve, achieve [culture] going on, and I do see it as completely gendered. I do think more and more men are internalizing aspects of it, but right now, it is kicking the female ass particularly hard. It’s just not attacking the men in my life on as many different levels as it is the females in my life. It may be attacking them in their work lives, and they get perfectionistic tinged there, but it may not be attacking them in their bodies in the same way or in their family relationships in the same way.

My experience is that with the teenage girls, young women, even older women, the perfectionistic standard is not just attacking their work lives. It’s attacking their relationships, their family dynamics, their friendships, [their relationships] to their bodies, to exercise, to food. It’s kind of being applied across the board.

CP: Right. And what do you think actually happens when someone’s [a] perfectionist? It’s funny because I, myself, have never been a perfectionist in quite this way. I was always like, “Hey, B+, I’ll take it!” All my friends are total perfectionists, and maybe I am a perfectionist in other ways, but I just have other things. This is not my cross to bear.

And yet I know it’s a huge problem. You can just see it in all the eating disorders, and the media doesn’t help any with all the retouching that they do and putting up unrealistic models for us to yearn for. But internally, as a girl, and I’m reaching for perfection, what actually happens? Why can’t we talk to each other, for instance, and say, “You’re feeling this, too? This is bullshit!” What happens that isolates us in this process?

ER: I think [that] right there is the heart of it. If we could really talk to each other—and it’s conversations like this, making “perfectionist” not a buzz word but a real conversation and a real internal presence instead of, “Oh, you know, it’s a big issue with girls.” End of conversation. No, what is the big issue? Why this drive? I do come from, in many ways, a psychology perspective, and for me, so much of it is internalized signals.

For me, a lot of it was about not only proving myself to myself, but I think we have a generation of women, especially really empowered women who bear a kind of feminist mantle saying, “OK, what are we going to do as young women in this generation?” And one of the phrases we’ve internalized from the very beginning was we said we wanted to change the world before we even knew what that meant. “It’s up to you guys!” was the phrase that was dropped off the lips of well-meaning parents and teachers and mentors and coaches, and I think it’s been especially internalized truly by the empathetic girl. I think it’s an emotional function that becomes internalized toward an inner drive.

It’s like, “I care so deeply, so what the heck do I do about it? I see photos that terrify me, I see statistics, I see my friends suffering, and I kick myself into overdrive because I care so deeply.” I think in some ways, it’s not really seeking to heal pieces of the world in which girls let in their truly empathetic feelings for, but it’s a mechanism for running away from sadness, from grief, from letting in what is, in essence, a really beautiful experience of empathy and oneness with the world.

But, of course, in a pretty straight, academic setting, it would hardly be presented as that. It’s presented as cultural guilt or whatever different words we put on it. But truly I think it is, in some aspects, internalized despair. Perfectionism is where we start to attack ourselves. The tragedy is we become our own worst enemy where the standards are never quite good enough.

CP: It’s interesting, what you said was that in your generation the weight of the tragedies that are happening—and you know, it’s all relevant, the tragedies that are happening now were probably relevantly the same as when other generations were growing up. Although that’s hard to believe, because there weren’t people shooting children in schools and things like that.

But I do feel like the nurturing instinct in girls and that intense capacity for empathy and just the intuitive connectiveness we have with the world I don’t think is [just] innately unique to feminine energy. I don’t think it means that the masculine can’t feel that. But we’re sort of born with that awareness of other. And I think it’s a lot of pressure, especially for girls because it is almost the role of the feminine to take care of people. And when there’s so much suffering in the world, I wonder if it’s not part of the equation.

It’s certainly not the whole story. We can talk, once again, about the media and social norms that just keep getting passed down. But I do think that there’s some kind of feeling that the boys don’t necessarily have, some kind of awareness of the suffering of others that puts this extra pressure on.

ER: Well, I also think it’s socialized to a much larger level. And I know that’s said very often. What I mean by that is that I think, in a tragic way, the empathetic function is socialized out of boys in many situations. I’ve witnessed a capacity in some of the most amazing young men I know for this intense feeling function, but the feeling function also comes with things like breaking down sobbing without any explanation—any rational explanation, that is. We don’t have a society where that capability is encouraged. In fact, it’s thoroughly not allowed for most young men in our society.

The tragedy of what is not being valued and seen and reflected back to young boys in themselves [in regards] to the mentoring and parenting their often receiving is a huge loss in the empathetic function that they could be developing in themselves. And I think that with girls, what we’re seeing is not only this empathetic function—which I do believe, if you break down the science, break it down to hormones, there is a lot of biological stuff that’s happening with girls—but there’s also internalization of, as you said, the responsibility to take care of others.

It’s almost like, I call it a “should-ing” function. “You should do this, you should do this, you should do this. You are responsible based on there being nobody else.” If you have a friend who’s not doing well, even if you’re not close to them, my experience is that most girls will go, “Oh, I should do something. I should step in in every situation where I see a vacuum. I am at fault if I don’t step in.”

So without even being asked to take responsibility for the situation, girls are creating space in which they should, should, should. So it’s a crisis, a huge expansion of responsibility, and quite impossible responsibility of trying to predict every scenario, trying to be involved in every friendship, show up for every single person, and often forgetting, of course, to show up for themselves in compassion and kindness that they would, ironically, be fantastic at presenting to another friend.

CP: Right. What’s your part in ameliorating the situation? Of course “solution” is kind of a trite word here because it’s complicated. But what do you recommend for teens? And also a lot of our listeners are going to have moms with tweens and teens and college-aged girls. And you have an incredible relationship with your mom. What are some approaches that you use that have been useful for you growing up and that you recommend?

ER: Gosh, OK. It’s such a multi-layered dilemma that we are living in today as female-bodied people [in a] gendered society. There are just so many layers to it. So [there are] a few different things I’ll start experiencing. First thing is really being conscious of my media consumption, and being a conscious consumer of the pieces that I’m putting in front of myself. Statistics, research shows that however much I say that’s not affecting me, actually consuming all of these images consistently, even though we may tell a part of our brain, “Oh, that’s not real,” the brain isn’t wired to understand that on an innate, unconscious level. We’re actually taking in, “Oh, that’s an image. Oh, that’s an image.” And we see it so repeated, it becomes ubiquitous, it becomes accepted, and it gains status in our inner systems and our inner images.

So being aware of my media consumption and consciously providing myself with alternative images. So not only saying, “OK, I’m not going to do that. Bad me, bad me, I’m not going to read these magazines, I’m not going to look at those TV images,” [but] also providing myself with alternatives and making sure that I have a consumption of awesome kick-ass women in the world who are doing amazing things that inspire me. Specifically embodied women, because so much of this is about the body and how we’ve pretty much left our body in a lot of ways.

Even as we’ve become an exercise-obsessed culture, we’re forgetting—I go to the gym here at school, and what do I see? People running on treadmills watching TV shows or doing homework. So actually, they’re not experiencing the body. They’re not feeling, “Oh, this feels good,” or, “Now I’m tired.” They’re looking at external numbers and they’re [studying for] their stats exam and they’re doing both at the same time while happening to be running. And it’s actually a profound disengagement, which is really dangerous, I think, for learning what your body’s natural cues and desires are for exercise. Because our bodies [do] have a natural desire for exercise.

So that’s my second point that I’d bring it back to. My first is about watching media consumption and providing yourself with alternative images—there are some really cool plus-sized models out there—and just giving yourself different images to make part of your inner tapestry and your inner landscape as you imagine the beauty of the variety of the female form. Giving yourself true variety.

The second piece, I’d say is find a way for yourself to really experience being in your body. And I mean that so deeply. For some people, it’s going to be a meditation. For some people, it’s just going to be desk work. For some people it’s going to be lying [in] starfish on their bed, doing a mental body scan as they check in from the top of their hair and head down through their body, out their elbows, feeling in their stomach and their knees into their toes, and just being present in the body, with the body, for 10 minutes. Doing that for yourself. What if that was a priority and a delicious moment? For some people, it’s going to be running, but it’s going to be running without headphones and it’s going to be running outside, if that’s possible, and doing it as like, “This is a gift to myself,” rather than a “should” that’s connected to the tone of my thighs.

And starting to reframe the way in which we approach exercise and being in the body and making that a daily practice. “What is my gift to my body today? What is it? It’s essential, it’s urgent, it’s necessary. Nothing holds a higher priority. And making sure I’m getting at least 15 minutes in my body today,” in some people’s lives. If you need an hour, get an hour. Finding that practice and really showing up in your body. Not an external scan of the body, not an external, “How’s it looking today?” No, what does it feel like to be you today? What does it feel like?

It might even be an inner dialogue. It might be actually just a practice of trying to just release the inner dialogue and live in your stomach. What’s it like to be in your stomach? And that can be kind of scary sometimes. Sometimes there’s so much stuff that we talk up in there. There’s so much stuff that we lodge in the body and sometimes it doesn’t feel safe to actually live there and to actually drop down into the body.

One of the exercises I do when I teach body image workshops, whether it’s for teenagers, or—I’m launching a new series working with women on bodies, women of all ages. I’ll be teaching at Epsilon this summer in August. One of the exercises that I do with women and with teenagers, girls and boys, is [ask,] “What are you carrying wear in your body?” So the internalized [idea,] whether it’s a comment our moms said when we were 14, or it’s an injury, or it is a place where we know certain emotions live. I know where my anxiety lives in my body. I know where my self-loathing lives. It usually lives in my thighs, and that’s scary for me to admit. I put my hands on my thighs and go, “Ouch. Wow. There’s so much there.”

So part of altering emotional intelligence is starting to [think about] where is it in my body that I’ve taken in these pieces, these emotions, these wounds, these ultimate happinesses and these joys and these touches of pleasure? What is my body a map for and how can I become more conscious of that and find the support in the container outside of that to be able to deal with some of that? Maybe that’s physical therapy, maybe that’s a meditation practice, a spirituality practice. But what is there that I’m carrying in my body so that I can begin to work with it so that I can more fully inhabit my body?

CP: Right. So less about cultivating a love for the body and more about just bringing awareness to it. Is that what I’m hearing?

ER: I think that’s the first step. The first step is really about awareness, and I really hesitate to throw—I think “body love” gets thrown out too much and inappropriately. And it’s kind of intimidating to go from feeling a self-loathing to an adoration. The real goal is actually body acceptance. That’s the goal right there.

How can I accept that this is myself? First of all, I am this body. It isn’t a possession of mine, this is me. So how can I accept that? How can I accept that this is the body that I’ve been given in this world, on this earth? This is my genetic inheritance. How can I live with my set point, with my body’s natural shape, form, weight, color, tone? How do I accept that and how can I come to greater acceptance? That is the goal, instead of, “OK, I’ve got to get to total self-adoration and that’s the only way I’ll be happy.” Which is a myth, I think.

CP: Right. We touched on this, about the book with your mom. What advice do you have for moms who have, once again, tweens, teens, and college-age, or even higher, that are raising girls to have more of an awareness of their bodies in more of a self-acceptance—maybe they’re not quite there yet. What do you recommend for the moms?

ER: Well, the first thing I’d say—this is obviously such important work, and mothers have such an exciting role to play in their daughters’ lives. Instead of being a huge negative burden, like, “Oh gosh, I better deal with my teenage daughter’s body stuff,” think, “Cool.” You get to act as a protection mechanism and a different role model for her. That’s aweseome.

So in telling yourself, in that way, that, “Yes, great, OK, what can I do to be part of doing this for my teenage girl?” The first thing that I’d say is [to] do your own work as a mother on your own relationship to your body and what the matrimonial inheritance is that you’ve handed down. How does your mother treat her body? And your grandmother? And how did they treat your body? What are the stories and the messages that you’ve been told, and the implicit stories that are signals—your body language, your traumas, whatever else may be in our linage. Watch and be aware for what that narrative is and working on it yourself.

Because one of the most significant things is being able to catch yourself with things like negative comments to your own body. Even if you’re complimenting your daughter, she’s going to notice, she’s going to see, and she’s going to pick up on your emotions, your comments, your feelings about your own relationship to your body. And if it’s something you’re working on, and you know that, “Wow, this is something that I’m working on. I can’t promise that I can be perfect for my daughter right now.”

What I would instead emphasize is appropriate boundaries around that. Say, “OK, this is something I’m working on. I’m going to deal with this with a friend rather than engaging in any kind of dialogue with my daughter until I’m able to speak to her with a little bit more of a balance. If I’m stuck in a negative place with my body, I know I’m going to get help for that, I’m going to work with that, and I’m going to consciously, perhaps, go [to] therapy [with] somebody who specializes in these issues to support me, to help me. Because it is urgent if I want to be able to be there for my daughter.” The first thing I’d say is do your own work around your relationship to body, food, weight. Often that ties into gender, women’s work, etc.

The other things I’d say about supporting your daughter is make your house or your home or the place that you have for her an alternative space. So no scales in the house. Get those external numbers out. My mom raised me in a house without scales. It was one of the biggest gifts. Now, sometimes people need scales for health reasons. That’s a separate issue for very specific health issues. But otherwise, get external numbers and external code of the house. And make it a place where the question in the morning isn’t, “How much do I weigh?” but, “How do I feel in my body this morning?”

Because weight and numbers change so much. Creating an alternative space for your daughter around numbers and external—whether it’s keeping magazines out of the house, making certain guidelines. When you have a teenage girl, you do have control over certain things in their lives. You can say, “This is my house, these are our family values, and this is what it’s like to live in this space. And I get to say that in this space, I don’t like to support magazines that show these kinds of images.” And instead of saying, “Just because I’m mom,” say why, say how. Talk about your relationship with your body honestly.

Because that’s what she’s going to learn the most, about how difficult it can be sometimes to be a women in this world, and how you are dealing with it is going to be one of the biggest lessons that she is going to take away—how you are honestly engaging with the ups and downs of having a female body in this world, in this culture, and in our society. I would say the second one, then, is to create an alternative home environment, an alternative culture within where she can escape from school, from the friend dynamics that might be throwing her off, from the internet dynamics, and feel at home in her body.

And the third one, I’d say, is very simple. And that would be just laugh. Sometimes you’ve just got to laugh about it. It’s not a serious conversation. It’s like a belly laugh, where you’re like, “Isn’t this ridiculous? Look at this!” Some of my favorite writers who look at these issues around bodies and mothers and daughters is like, “Sometimes you’ve just got to put on some music and dance around and shake it and laugh hysterically that this what we’re dealing with, and here’s my body. Isn’t it funny? Look how my thighs jiggle! Isn’t that cool? Isn’t it awesome that feet carry me around?” Get goofy with it and get real about it. Get back into our bodies and get out of our heads and just say, “Hey, here it is. Here’s this body, this silly, lovely, soft, delicious, smart human body. And that is who I am. And to be in it is to really be here, and it’s a struggle sometimes. I’m struggling too. Let’s do this together.”

CP: Cool. I love it. We’re pretty much out of time. If you were to give one piece of advice for girls around your age, plus even younger, what would you give them when facing that inner critic?

ER: One [piece of] advice to give teenage girls when facing that inner critic. One [piece of] advice I’d say is that as teenage girls are often told the message and asked the question, “Why are you here on this earth? Why are you living this life? What are you doing, what are you doing it for?” And maybe it’s a question we’re not consciously engaging with. It’s one of the biggest questions of the teenage years and of the transition into adulthood.

And what we teenage girls often forget in the face of perfectionism, in the face of the many inner critics that are pushing us to do more, be more, prove that we’re that we’re valuable—to our mothers, to our fathers, to our grandparents, to our friends, to the people who we may be attracted to, whatever that is—is that we’re living this life that really nobody else [is living] other than ourselves. The question is, what do you really want to do with this life of yours? And it’s never too young to ask that question and start to create real, truthful answers for yourself.

And I think when we check into an emotional, compassionate place, we’re not going to find an answer of selfishness, fear, like check out of the inner critic. “Am I supposed to be this selfish, self-involved individual?” And the answer is no. When we really check in, I believe, to who we are, what we want, what lights us up, gets us out of bed in the morning, makes this life worth living, we enter a deeper, more compassionate place for ourselves and for others.

And that’s my biggest advice and my tips for teenage girls. In those moments of panic, in those moments of, “My paper isn’t in, and I’m a failure, and I’ve messed it up again, and if people would have known me they would have loved me,” just the voice of the inner critic, take a deep breath and go, “Right. A little perspective. I’m living this life for me. I’m not living my mother’s unlived life, I’m not living my father’s unlived life, I’m not living a life that has [the] expectations of some media headline trash-talking my generation. I’m living this life for myself. OK, deep breath. Now, what do I want to do with this day?”

CP: Nice. I think that’s relevant for women of all ages, probably up to 99.9. [Laughs]

ER: [Laughs] Yes, that’s a big one.

CP: It’s great. Oh, it’s so great to hear such a fresh perspective and to tap into the younger generation. What is your generation called? Are you a Millennium? What is it called?

ER: A Millennial. But there’s also a really cool group that calls ourselves the “We Generation,” W-E. And it looks at us as a globalized generation that, for the first time, is super connected across a global culture, is more diverse than ever, interracial, intercultural marriages and children are being produced at a high, high level compared to the past generations. And they see it as a positive potential of my generation, to be more connected, to be more compassionate, and to really work the framework of connectedness. I think that that is one of the biggest promises of my generation.

CP: Fabulous! I love it!

ER: Yes! I’m excited about that.

CP: Cool. Well, it’s been such a pleasure, Eliza. Thank you so much.

ER: Oh, it’s such a pleasure, Chantal!

CP: Thank you so much for being here today.

ER: Same to you.

She is the president and founder of Uplevel You™, a million-dollar company committed to the growth and empowerment of entrepreneurs and creatives around the globe through teaching not only high-level cutting-edge authentic marketing and business strategies, but also transformational techniques to shift mindsets and wealth. After 15 years in a successful career as a popular songwriter and performer, Christine shifted her focus so that she could provide a deeper level of service to other creative entrepreneurs. Christine was a featured presenter at the 2013 Emerging Women Live Conference in Boulder, CO.

In this episode of Grace & Fire, Christine and I speak about:

• Her transition from music to being a mentor/business coach
• Treating Business like Art
• The Power of Communicating “Your Story” and how to avoid traps when sharing it
• Clean Selling and aligning with true intention while not letting assumptions rule
• Imperfect action and the benefit of taking small steps

Tune in and listen to Marketing with Intention and Integrity with the Rock Star Business Woman: Christine Kane.

Subscribe to the Emerging Women podcast on iTunes.

Transcript

Chantal Pierrat: Hello, Christine!

Christine Kane: Hey, how are you?

CP: Welcome!

CK: Well thanks for having me. [I’m] really excited.

CP: Yes, I can’t believe it’s been over a month since the event. It was so great to get to know you and to see the other side of Christine Kane, behind the curtain, which is actually the same as what I always imagined you to be.

CK: [Laughs] Well, thank you. It was just such a great event, and I’ve just been talking about it to everybody. It’s going to be huger next year than it was this year!

CP: Yes! I’m totally pumped for it. You know, what’s interesting is that when I first discovered you—and the reason I’m saying [this is to] see the truth of who you are—I discovered you through your music. And I was thinking, “Oh, she would be a great singer for Emerging Women.” And it took me a little while to realize, “No, this woman’s also a business mentor.”

So I would love to hear a little bit more about how that was a transition for you, because as far as I can see in your business, you’re very much like who I saw and got to know through the internet on your music. It’s not like you have two different personas, it’s the same. And those two categories—mentoring and business coaching and being basically, can we call you a rock ‘n’ roll star? Because I actually feel like you can fit into that category. The two seem to be mutually exclusive, so maybe you could start there and tell us about your background and how you came to where you are now.

CK: It’s funny you say that. For a while I said that, “Oh my God, it’s very different, I should hide the fact that I played music because that will make people question my ability as a business owner.” But any artist knows that in order to do what you want to do, especially now, you have to know that you have a business and you have to treat your art like a business.

I actually believe that business is an art. And when you look at some of what I learned in the world of songwriting, if I was to sit you down and really talk about it, it’s amazing how much it links in with a lot of the lessons I’ve had to learn with business. Now, with that said, it’s very different now that I’m running a company and we have a team, and I am stretching muscles that I never thought I would have to stretch. But I really do with that I had done more of this and really stretched this out a little bit more because I think I would have been able to do even more with my music at the time.

So how the transition happened, though, wasn’t so much that I was like, “I’m going to go in and be in business.” When I was performing, I was pretty clear early on [about] not just becoming a musician. There was a point where when I had become a musician, I had all the people clapping at me and supposedly I’d reached some level of a dream come true [and] I realized that I needed to make the intention and set the intention that this was going to be bigger than my ego. I started to realize it didn’t have as much to do with the music as I thought.

So it became, really, about service, and when you look at art or any business, it’s a service profession. And when I opened up to that, what started happening was people would come up to me backstage, when I was signing CDs, and they would say, “How do I follow my dreams? How do I live my purpose?” And they weren’t saying, you know, “How do I play that chord? Or write that song?” They were asking me about the bigger pieces of their lives. And I began coaching them without even knowing what coaching was.

Then I moved in and started getting coaching myself and realized, “Wow, this is just really helpful, and it’s a really wonderful modality for working with people.” And I began offering retreats for women, completely separate from doing music. While I was still on tour, I’d come home and I would do some retreats in Asheville. And that grow into an online business, and there was a point that I just knew that all of my passion for helping people, serving people, coaching people would eventually lead me out of music. I knew it in 2005, and in 2009 I made my last CD and I really just gave my all over to what is now my company.

I just kind of said, “You know what, this is the moment.” And it wasn’t a mental moment. I didn’t just say, “I’m quitting!” I actually evolved into it. And it evolved fully into business coaching, however I will add that I do a ton of business coaching, but all of it is connected to soul. All of it, even strategy, every marketing piece, when I talk about pricing strategies. Especially when you’re working with women, there’s so much soul and so much mindset that I now think there’s no way I could be doing this without having done music.

CP: Wow. Yes. One of the things that you led with here was that songwriting—the process of songwriting, you’re seeing that coming up. And one of the things in business, especially when women articulate business, [is] it seems that the power of story and our own personal experience is relevant. And I’m curious to see if that is coming in for you and the talent that you have in songwriting, if that’s translating or you’re encouraging people to communicate their story in their marketing.

CK: All the time. All the time. Story to me is everything. It builds trust. I think we have to have credibility, that’s very important. But I think we also have to have vulnerability. And when you’re vulnerable and you are sharing your story, you want to be strategic about how you do it.

This isn’t just to say, “Bleed all over the place,” because I think sometimes very heart-centered people have that tendency to say, “Oh, she’s giving me permission to tell my story and I’m just going to go all over the place here.” There are strategies to share it without overwhelming people and fire-hosing them. But people do need to hear what has driven you to this place and why you are leading this business or creating this thing that you’re doing now.

I think people love to hear those transition points. When I tell people I was hiding—for a long time I was hiding that I was coaching people backstage, I was hiding that I was doing women’s retreats because I was an artist and I was in the coffeehouse world. There was a coolness factor. You wear your jeans and your black shirts and you look really cool, the cooler the better, and don’t admit that you have Deepak Chopra or Sounds True cassettes in your car or whatever it is. It’s like that kind of hiding, and when I share that with people, that’s a story I’m sharing.

There have been so many people who have come up and had their own story that linked in with them. And there’s a trust there. And that’s where it links, and that’s usually my ideal client, someone who went through some kind of transition like that. So it’s funny, we are the center of our business. We are at the core of it. So of course our own stories matter. And that’s going to attract people who are our ideal clients, I would say 90 percent of the time.

CP: Right. Now, you said something interesting, because it reminds me of myself. I tend to overshare, and I was wondering if you had some tips on, as people are sort of deciding what to share in their story and what pieces are relevant, especially when we’re talking about those transition points. I love how you used that phrase. What traps do you find women falling into as we’re trying to articulate our story? How do we avoid those?

CK: Well, I think it’s really important to sit down and find what your relevant stories are, because this isn’t just blabbering on. It’s not like, “I’m going to sit down and tell you everything.” Those are conversations with our pals and with our friends. So I think it’s [really] important to say—first off, it starts by knowing, who is your ideal client and what matters to her and him? What are their doubts and objections and what are some of their challenges? What stories do I have that are relevant that link into those? How am I going to serve them?

And I think one of the biggest resistances that people, especially women, in business face is the word “strategy.” So strategy, for a lot of people, makes it seem like, “Oh, you’re harshing my buzz. I’m just so spontaneous and I just tell whatever I want.” But telling the story involves some strategy because otherwise you go off into some tangent and people can’t follow. A story has a beginning, a middle, and an end.

And I think this is where being on stage for so many years in music has served me, in that I had so much practice learning when I was sharing something where their eyes would glaze over [or] when I was sharing something that got a laugh or whatever. I think it’s [about] the relevant pieces, and I think women are resistance to practice. They’re resistant to strategy. They’re resistant to saying, “If I’m going to be on stage, what are the most relevant stories that matter?”

And you can plan some of that in advance. When I do my Masterminds, this is the stuff we work on. We just did a whole two-day [program] on positioning and what it means from a real soul-authentic place, and what stories you have, and how you’re going to put them out there so that people get them and you’re not just like, “Here’s everything I could possibly give you with this story!” You don’t need to tell every last little piece. It’s [about] what really is going to hook in and matter to and impact your ideal client or someone, even if it’s just from the place that they get what you’re trying to convey, they get what you’re trying to teach. It’s not always about selling.

CP: Right. That’s the thing about music—when you’re on stage, there are so few words. I feel like singer/songwriters and folk singers and even rock ‘n’ roll, of course, you’re just there and you’re saying maybe just a handful of words, but they’re so powerful.