In the first half of the year, we’re excited to launch the series with Reverend Dr. Walter Kim, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, and the keynote speaker for the 2026 Denominational Celebration. In this series, Dr. Kim joins me to explore what it means to live as citizens of God’s kingdom in today’s world, faithful to Christ, formed in community, and engaged in mission. So, stay tuned for this rich and timely series.

Cara: Hello folks, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to best ministry practices and your GCI context. I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we are joined again by Reverend Dr. Walter Kim for our third mini episode of our miniseries on Kingdom Living.

Today we’re going to be exploring the missional nature of Kingdom Living. So, Walter, thank you so much for joining us again today.

[00:01:19] Walter: Oh, what a delight.

[00:01:22] Cara: For this missional episode, we’re going to be exploring this idea of seeing our neighbors and inviting them to follow. And developing this gospel fluency to demonstrate and proclaim the kingdom both in word and in deed.

And so, I want us to start off with what does it mean to be missional and what makes it essential to Kingdom Living?

[00:01:46] Walter: Yeah, this this notion of being missional is probably something that is really scary when we often think about how does it work out in my life that I am to proclaim Jesus to my neighbor? And sometimes the vision could be of uncomfortable conversations that we’re having while we’re telling people about their eternal destiny and having to break some really bad news only to worry if we’ve just ruined our friendship or ruined a family relationship.

And there is some measure of truth that to be missional means to have a proclamation of Jesus. And that proclamation does contain really bad news about the human state.

But when we think about the mission of God, when we think about what God is at work at in the world, his mission, yes, includes sending his Son to be the Savior of fallen humans.

But he also cares for the animals. He also has created the sun, moon, and stars. He is also holding the universe together. And even for those who don’t know Jesus as their personal Savior, he too has a love of nations and communities because they have been created in his image.

So, when I think about where we are in the missional episode, I really appreciate that there has been a progression here, relational, participatory, now missional, because I think we now have a bigger context for what we mean by missional. To be missional is to join God’s work, God’s mission in the cosmos that is incredibly and essentially relational.

And once we do it this way, once we understand it this way, then we begin to realize that this mission, while daunting at one level, is the most natural extension of just being a Christian, to bear the fruit of the Spirit, to seek in loving our neighbors, and even how we go about our jobs in the world. This is part of the mission.

Humans were created in order to care and tend the garden, like that was their mission, Adam and Eve. And so, when I think about our mission, it includes this much more expansive vision of participating and joining in all the things that God does that is highly relational, predicated on love, and of course includes the proclamation of Jesus as the Savior of the world. But it includes it. It not only includes it but includes many other things. And to make mission exclusively in this narrow way, a proclamation of salvation is actually to do injustice to mission. It’s not really the full mission of God.

[00:05:29] Cara: Yeah, I think that gives us a lot to chew on, and this, an invitation to expand our understanding of what the mission of God is and what it means to be missional and to participate in that. Yeah, that gives us a lot. I think that typically when we do think about being missional — I think a lot about my experiences — it has been specific to this idea of just or maybe limited to the act of sharing a gospel-kind of presentation or proclamation and not really expansive of these other elements that you’ve shared.

And I’m just wondering: can you speak a little bit more as to what it looks like to expand our vision of our understanding of what God’s mission is and what it looks like for us to consider all of these other aspects of his mission when we think about being missional?

[00:06:57] Walter: Yeah, so I think about the book of Isaiah. So much of how the New Testament understands the good news of Jesus Christ is through the understanding that was set up in Isaiah for which Jesus was the fulfillment.

And I think of passages like Isaiah 52:7 on “how beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news.” All right. You would think this is about proclamation of Jesus Christ the Savior for the forgiveness of our sins. That is in there. I want to be very clear. I really do believe Jesus is the Lamb of God, the Savior of the world. We need him for forgiveness of sins and our eternal destiny rests on those types of decisions.

But if that’s all the gospel was about, you would expect Isaiah to say it this way, “How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news” of the forgiveness offered to us through a coming Savior.

But what does the passage actually say?

How beautiful in the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who says to Zion, your God reigns. Listen, your watchmen lift up your voices together. They shout for joy. When the Lord returns to Zion, they will see it with their own eyes and burst into songs of joy together, you ruins of Jerusalem. For the Lord has comforted his people. He has redeemed Jerusalem. The Lord will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations and all the ends of the earth will see it, the salvation of our God. [Isaiah 52:7–10]

So, this good news was to bring hope to a people who, as prophesied here, would be coming out of exile, whose city was ruined. So, the good news would be helping to put back a city, put back the fabrics of society. Something that watchmen waiting would long to see. Elsewhere in Isaiah describes it, that God will one day restore the temple and all nations will be drawn to it, and swords will be turned into plow shares and nation will not war against nation.

Like, this is the good news of Jesus transforming all things. And it’s a participation in that good news. I think of Luke 4 and Jesus introducing himself to the world in Nazareth and cites Isaiah 61: the Spirit of God, the Lord has anointed me to proclaim good news.

And again, if we reduce good news narrowly just to the forgiveness of sins, then we would expect Jesus to say this because this is his inaugural address, like he’s introducing himself to the world in this section of the Gospel of Luke. So, you would want to get it right. And in quoting Isaiah, he makes it clear that the gospel includes the forgiveness of sins.

But it goes so much beyond that. Proclaim good news to the poor, freedom for the oppressed, sight for the blind. Liberty for the oppressed. Freedom for the prisoner earlier, and then liberty for the oppressed, the year of the Lord’s favor.

And the quotation, the year of the Lord’s favor, refers back to the practice of jubilee, the Lord’s favor in the release of slaves, in the restoration of lands. So, like, this is a gospel that’s huge!

To be a part of the mission of God is to be a part of all of this. It includes proclamation, but it involves so much more. And when the church has done this, it has actually made the proclamation so much more compelling.

Why did early people, why did people become Christians in the early centuries? It’s because of their witness. The gospel often didn’t make sense to people because a proclamation, first of all, of one God was an unusual thing in the Roman Empire.

And that one God would be manifest through Jesus who won a victory through his death on the cross of crucifixion. This is only for criminals. It was foolishness to the Greek. It was a shame to the Jews. This is not a market-tested message. This is not something that anyone that works in marketing would ever conceive. It had all sorts of built-in obstacles, built-in guarantees for failure.

Why did it succeed? Because Christians met the widow, the orphan, the poor. They lived such transformational lives that it made the gospel not just plausible, it made it utterly compelling. And so, the proclamation of Jesus in Word was made not just plausible, but compelling by the demonstration of the gospel in deeds.

And the two, in the best moments of the church’s life, have always come together, because the gospel has always held things together. Jesus holds all of this together.

[00:12:42] Cara: Yes. And I think that you mentioned of, Jesus making all things new and I think about what does that mean when we talk about Kingdom Living?

And this reality of Jesus making all things new. It’s the living into and out of that and not just this proclamation of the forgiveness of sins, right? So, we’re reflecting what life in the kingdom is like, what life is like when all things are made new. And so, we see this kind of bigger picture that you’re talking about of this jubilee of this newness of things, that when they’re transformed as they’re brought into this redemption and brought into the beauty of how they’ve always been created to be.

And so, yeah, I think that then connects to what you’re saying about word and deed, that we’re not just talking about what the kingdom is, but we’re actually living these moments of the kingdom, these pieces of the kingdom right here and right now. And I know we use this phrase a lot, but “now, but not yet.” But we’re still … those deeds are reflecting what the kingdom is like in these maybe short and fragmented moments. But I think that’s, like you said, compelling, a really compelling thing when those words and deeds come together, because we’re not just saying, hey, this far off kingdom, yada yada, but it’s like this far off kingdom that for the last 20 minutes we experienced a little bit of a taste of. And that’s just a taste. And it was good. It was good.

[00:14:49] Walter: Yeah.

[00:14:52] Cara: Yeah.

[00:14:52] Walter: Cara, I want to swing back to something that we talked about in the last episode about consumerism.

[00:14:58] Cara: Yes.

[00:15:01] Walter: If we have a reduced gospel, a gospel that simply is about the forgiveness of sins, and again, hear me really clearly: forgiveness of sins is non-negotiable; that is a part of the gospel.

But my concern is that it feeds into the consumerist vision of the Christian life. The gospel is about meeting my need for the forgiveness of sins. So, once my sins are forgiven, I’m good. Why would I need anything else? Like, I have what I need. And so, I can move on.

So, a gospel that ironically focuses so much on the forgiveness of sins can oftentimes just leave people in their sins. In other words, it’s an impoverished vision of all that is meant by the good news of Jesus Christ. The proclamation of peace is a proclamation of personal wholeness, of social wholeness, of communal wholeness, of cosmic wholeness. It’s the whole shebang. It’s the kind of thing that would give hope to an exiled, broken people, that God could put back a city.

Like, cities require infrastructure. They require people getting together. They require all sorts of social work and vocations. If we have a gospel that stops with forgiveness of sins, then we have a gospel that I think will feed into consumerist mentalities.

No wonder we would have a hard time to convince people. Oh, you’ve been forgiven your sins. Now you have to do these other things. Wait a second, that’s still feels like a bait and switch to me. I thought the gospel is about the forgiveness of sins.

What isn’t a bait and switch is if you are given a vision of the gospel that in the forgiveness of sins, you now are invited into a family. And that family comes with all sorts of joys, but also responsibilities. And you’ve been given a new mission and vocation and that comes with all sorts of joys: an overwhelming joy that even any challenges in this world will pale, will just feel like a momentary light affliction, compared to this eternal weight of glory. If that’s the case, then I think we are giving people, right from their birth, the DNA for their growth.

So, do we have a gospel that gives people in their birth DNA, all that is necessary for their growth DNA? And I would say this is where it becomes essential that we have a robust and full vision of the mission of God.

To be missional is an invitation to the breadth and beauty of all that God would have for us to understand in the good news of Jesus Christ. And that means that in the proclamation in word and deed, in the demonstration of the gospel, in the breadth of all the ways that the Church is at service, this is not just to convince people to accept Jesus.

It’s not just like apologetic. It’s not just a bait and switch. This is what they are actually accepting. You’re accepting not just the forgiveness of sins, you’re accepting the entrance into new life, new family, new vocation, new purpose. It’s an entry into all of this. And if that’s the case, then it makes sense to me that Jesus would say, consider the cost. Consider the cost.

Not many will find a narrow way. That doesn’t make sense. If it’s just about a consumerist, you get the forgiveness of your sins. Who wouldn’t want that, right? That’s a broad way.

But the way that requires a crucifixion, not just a crucifixion of Jesus, but you have to take up your own cross and follow him. Oh whoa. Wait a second. I didn’t sign up for that. I just signed up for the forgiveness of my sins so that I could get to heaven.

And I’m speaking a little bit of a caricature, but enough of truth, I think, in this, that we have to ask the question, are we consumerists in the church because we have been feeding them with a consumerist gospel.

[00:19:49] Cara: Yeah. And I think that’s a really helpful question for us to wrestle with. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think about you saying what … this idea of why Jesus invites us to count the cost and all of the different dimensions of what we’re being invited into. Not just the forgiveness of sins, but being invited into a new family, a new life, a new way of being and moving through the world.

And so, I’m wondering two different pieces here. What does it mean to see and invite our neighbors? And then, who are — this kind of age-old question, right— who are our neighbors?

[00:20:43] Walter: Yeah. This is where the church unleashed into the neighborhoods becomes essential. I think we need to have more church members on school boards, volunteering not simply inside the walls of the church or at a ministry of the church, but volunteering in community events because it’s in that normal way of life that Christians are showing up that all of a sudden provides an opportunity for witness.

And not witness from the outside. You’re not witnessing throwing gospel grenades into people’s lives. You’re witnessing with people who are just living life together.

I think of Katrina, for instance. There was after the hurricane Katrina, and New Orleans and other cities were being put together. I know in a number of campus ministries, having worked in campus ministry before, Christians were using their spring breaks and other opportunities to go down to help rebuild the city.

And there were non-Christian students who were eager to join as well because they didn’t have a volunteer structure in ways that Christians had. Like, we have the Salvation Army. We have all sorts of ministries that are created to do this kind of work. So, for Christians to be able to volunteer, that’s like second nature.

We spend our spring breaks and summers and holidays volunteering in this way. Churches know how to do this. And so, some of these non-Christian students were realizing they didn’t have what Christians had, but they wanted to do some good in the world. And so, there were a number of campus ministries that said, you know what, we’re going to let these non-Christians come with us and join our teams as partners.

Of course, they would have to attend the morning devotionals. But there was a recognition that we’re just going to do this together and we’re going to join together. That became some of the most powerful evangelistic moments because this was being done in partnership, participatory, even with non-Christians.

These non-Christians weren’t recipients of ministry. They were joined together in doing stuff. And it’s in sharing that life where, up close, non-Christian students were able to see, wow! So, when you read the Bible and when you pray, this is what you’re praying about, you’re praying for the rebuilding of cities, you’re sharing personal prayer requests that are so vulnerable. I’ve never done this with anyone else. My friends?

How else are non-Christians going to see a compelling vision of life if they’re not exposed in some of these intimate ways, which we want them to come into the hostile territory of the four walls of the church in order to begin to experience that.

And of course we should still invite people to church. Absolutely. But I think there are some really creative ways that we could be sending out Christians two by two to be a part of civic life in our communities. And in that context, partnering with people, just rubbing shoulders with people to demonstrate that there is something really compelling in how Christians navigate this world. And maybe even to do so in a manner that demonstrates what Christian life could look like outside the walls of the church.

There was a refugee community in Boston when I was a pastor in Boston. And one of the things that we did with a number of these refugees was host soccer events where we would just play soccer together. And again, that becomes a very compelling thing to just share life together.

And in the course of sharing life, questions get raised, but they get raised in the most natural forms of living: playing soccer, sitting at a picnic, chasing your kids. This is just natural ways of life where you hear each other’s stories and share the story of Jesus.

[00:25:20] Cara: Yeah. I really appreciate that, what you shared about participating in church life being let’s be neighbors to one another and be active neighbors to one another. And that’s the context in which then we get to see and share and invite rather than only having a unidirectional way of inviting neighbors into the four walls of the church, but we’re going to actually live life with one another.

And I really love your example of also serving with and alongside one another, not just this kind of, a posture of, I have something you don’t, let me make you the recipient of my volunteering or a charity or whatever, but let’s do it together and then you can experience what this Christian community and living is all about.

And then, as you experience that, maybe there is something transformative, something compelling about that, that you experience, that you want to ask more questions about, and then that kind of naturally grows from there. And so, that makes me think of, you join the rhythms of your neighborhood or you build rhythms of doing things alongside one another, whatever that looks like.

And so, I’m thinking about what it means for us to develop these missional practices, these missional ways of being and moving through the world. What are some of those rhythms that we might be able to develop to support the growth of our missional way of being?

[00:27:14] Walter: I think storytelling is very powerful, and just to give a very practical to-do, think about the testimonies that we highlight in our church services. Oftentimes, what are the ministry moments? What are the mission moments?

We’re often highlighting personal victory, like, how I overcame an addiction or whatever, or we’re highlighting a ministry like this is how small groups changed my life. You should get involved. This is how being part of a youth group has changed my life. You should send your kid to youth group. And even things that we highlight of mission, we’re often highlighting in ways of this is what our church is doing out there in the community for the community.

That’s not quite the same as having people share life and talk about, this is what I’m doing as I’m serving on our parent teacher association in the local school. This is what I’m doing just as I’m volunteering at the fire station. This is what I’m doing, not in my involvement in a church ministry. But this is what I’m doing in my involvement in the Rotary Club or some other.

That kind of storytelling begins to normalize and dignify the mission of the church of everyday Christians, and for pastors preaching, what are your sermon illustrations? What are the things that you highlight as really compelling pictures of the nature of the good news of Jesus Christ?

Are we telling stories of what teachers are doing or what a sanitation worker might be doing in following Jesus in caring for or talking to others? I think these become really incredible opportunities to begin to normalize and dignify what we mean by mission. So, that’s the question I would ask. In the stories that you’re telling, in the things that you’re advertising, in the volunteer service that you’re highlighting, what are you normalizing and dignifying as the mission of God in this world?

I would love for it for people to be praying. Yes, pray for your missionaries. Pray for your small groups. Pray for your children’s ministry. Pray for all the things that we do pray for, but spend time praying for people who are volunteering, again, at schools. Pray for first responders and for those who are just part of life in caring for our communities. Like, what we pray for, what we tell stories about, what we illustrate in our sermons, they normalize and dignify something. And let’s be intentional about what we’re normalizing and dignifying.

[00:30:21] Cara: Thank you. That’s really helpful and thoughtful. And so, I invite listeners to really just sit with the insights that Walter has shared with us this episode, and really invite you to, with one another, allow yourself to expand your concept, your vision of mission, your understanding of what it means to participate in mission, to live into mission, and what that means and how that reflects Kingdom Living.

So, as we close out this episode, Walter, if you would pray for our people, for our neighbors, for our growth in being neighborly and being missional in our living, I would really appreciate that.

[00:31:17] Walter: Yeah. Let’s pray.

God of creation, you who set in motion, spoke the universe into existence, you who continue your work in holding all things together, you who sent your Son, the firstborn of creation and the firstborn of the church, you who will one day in the already and not yet that we’ve been talking about, one day will create a new heavens and a new earth, we want to join you in this mission. We want to join you in the fullness of the gospel that brings us personal peace and the forgiveness of our sins, relational peace in the invitation to a new family, missional life that includes meaningful vocation and service. And even in a world that will not all receive Jesus, we recognize that you are at work seeking to bless. And so, we pray to be a part of that for the glory of Jesus Christ. And in his name, we pray. Amen.

[00:32:29] Cara: Amen. Thank you, folks, and until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel. Thanks for listening. We would love to hear from you. Email us@infoatgci.org and we hope to see you at the 2026 denominational celebration in Texas from July 23–26, 2026. Visit us at gci.org/dc26 for more information and to register.

Cara: In 2026, the GC podcast is shifting to a new format with two miniseries released throughout the year rather than monthly episodes. This change is going to allow us to go deeper into meaningful conversations that support our shared journey of Kingdom Living. In the first half of the year, we’re excited to launch the series with Reverend Dr. Walter Kim, president of the National Association of Evangelicals, and the keynote speaker for the 2026 denominational celebration. In this series, Dr. Kim joins me to explore what it means to live as citizens of God’s kingdom in today’s world, faithful to Christ, formed in community, and engaged in mission. So, stay tuned for this rich and timely series.

Hello folks, and welcome to GC Podcast. I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and this podcast is dedicated to best ministry practices in the context of GCI churches. This is the second episode of our miniseries on Kingdom Living, and joining us once again is Reverend Dr. Walter Kim. Walter, thank you so much for joining us for the second part of this miniseries.

[00:01:17] Walter: Glad to be here.

[00:01:19] Cara: And I am very eager to jump into this next episode. We’re going to be exploring the element of kingdom living that is, that we could describe as participatory, of joining Jesus in what he’s doing and stepping into active discipleship by recognizing and joining in his ongoing work. And so, I just want to start us off with this conversation with what does it even mean to join Jesus and what he’s doing, and what ongoing work are we invited to participate in?

[00:01:55] Walter: Yeah. I think one of the incredibly important lessons that we need to be keeping in mind is that it’s not my ministry for Jesus. It’s Jesus’ ministry that I join.

[00:02:08] Cara: Yes.

[00:02:09] Walter: And that God’s purposes extend beyond that, beyond us, and even beyond the church. I think God has and is and continues to be at work. And I think the opening prayer in Colossians that all things hold together in him, in Jesus. And peppered throughout, we get these throughout the Scripture, we get these insights that God’s constantly at work. I think of Melchizedek, that strange figure in Genesis, right? He shows up out of nowhere. He blesses Abraham. And then the book of Hebrews picks up on that story and says that Melchizedek was a better, higher priesthood than even Aaron’s, that Jesus is a high priest in the order of Melchizedek. Who is this Melchizedek? I’m like, where did he come from? Where did he go after he departs the scene? Like we don’t know this story, but the lesson for me out of this is that while we have a lot told to us about Abraham, about the work of God’s people, about the church, we get these snapshots that God is actually at work all over the place beyond our field of vision.

And Melchizedek comes in just for a moment into our field of vision representing God’s work in this world, and then he goes out doing who knows what, but whatever it is that he did was so important that God later in Hebrews would guide the author of Hebrews to say Jesus was a high priest of the order of Melchizedek. It was like that important. To me the huge lesson about that is God is on the move doing things all over — not just the world, the cosmos — holding every atom and molecule together, and we get to join him in what he is doing in the cosmos. And that’s extraordinary. These snapshots that we get, I think are a humbling reminder.

Yeah. But also an inspiring reminder. Humbling in the sense that who am I that I get to participate in this cosmic ministry, that even right now in the heavenly realms that we don’t see there is a spiritual battle. Who am I to be a part of something so big? It’s humbling.

But it’s also inspiring that no matter how menial it feels, how mundane it feels that what you are doing in ministry, writing that email, filling out that form, calling back that person, visiting your neighbor with the casserole, preparing for your small, no matter how mundane it feels, you are actually involved in a cosmic ministry and you get a chance to find yourself in that big picture. It is both humbling and inspiring to recognize that we participate in what God is doing.

[00:05:37] Cara: Yes. Thank you. And, yeah, I agree. Humbling and inspiring. And I’d never thought about having that, I guess learning from Melchizedek. And I really like that idea of like outside of our window of vision that God’s doing things. I think that is a really cool way to think about that because God’s not limited by what we see.

And I think sometimes when we think about participating in his ministry, first off what you first mentioned is sometimes we think it’s our ministry, and so that’s quite limiting, right? But then even beyond that, I think we often limit what we think God’s doing or his ongoing work to what we can see, what we’re able to discern. But he’s doing all kinds of things all over the place, a cosmic ministry. I really love that. And that it’s just incredible to think about that.

And one of the things I personally love is that means sometimes we see him in places and doing things that we wouldn’t expect. And I think that, yeah, it is just incredible to think about how vast his ongoing work is, and what it means, and how humbling and inspiring it is that we get to be invited into a small piece of that. And that it’s not our piece. It’s not something that our objectives or what we want to see happen, but that it’s we’re being invited into what he’s doing. So, yes. Thank you for that.

[00:07:34] Walter: Yeah.

[00:07:35] Cara: Appreciate that. And I’m wondering, because you touched on the idea that it’s not our ministry and that it’s a humbling and inspiring experience even when things feel mundane, when we look at ministry as participation.

And so, I’m wondering a little bit more, what difference does participatory discipleship make for us as disciples, as the church for our neighbors. What difference does it make when we look at discipleship as participation instead of maybe other kind of ways to approach it or think about it?

[00:08:17] Walter: Yeah. This language or participation, I love it because it does several things. One, it reminds us that ministry is active. The word participate requires activity. You are doing something together. And again, as in our last episode, we referred to Jesus sending out folks and pairs and looking for our Timothys, looking for encouragers.

This notion of participatory ministry is this notion that we are called to do things together as the party of Christ and we need the entire body of Christ to represent the body of Christ, right? If we’re missing a part, a hand or a foot or some aspect, then the world is missing a chance to see something about who Jesus is that requires a full participation.

So, we have a particular calling. We might be keenly interested in justice or evangelism or service or teaching or a hospitality or care for children or care for elder, and we might do all of that really well. But that’s only a part of who Jesus is.

If we want people to have a full view of who Jesus is, then we need to have a participatory ministry that says I want to be as faithful and as excellent to what aspect of Jesus that, and kingdom life that, I am called to portray to you. But if you are left with the impression that’s the only thing God cares about, or that’s the only thing that God’s doing in this world, then you’re going to actually have a very impoverished view of who God is.

So that’s the second thing. Not only is participatory ministry action oriented. Participatory ministry is comprehensive. It is more comprehensive because it’s a constant reminder that if our goal is not just to give people a great view of what we do for Jesus, but a great view at what Jesus is seeking to do in the world, then by definition we need to be a part of something that points to other types of work and ministry. Otherwise, they are not going to get a full picture of the good news of Jesus, much less a full picture of Jesus himself.

The last thing about participatory ministry is it’s super humbling when you have to negotiate how you will accomplish something. And that’s deeply, oftentimes challenging, because you’re going to have to compromise. You’re going to have to work with someone else’s plan. You’re going have to have the curiosity, humility to learn from others, maybe even have your own ideas nixed. And so, it’s character forming. There’s in participatory ministry, there’s something deeply character forming as well.

So, I love this language that you’re using here in terms of kingdom ministry, kingdom life calling as participatory because it reminds us, it’s action oriented. It invites us to have people look at a bigger picture. And it’s also character forming because we have to humbly work with someone else.

[00:12:03] Cara: Yes. Thank you. And I think for me, one of the things that really jumps out is this idea that it requires us to look at the more comprehensive kind of picture of how we’re all participating in different ways and how that reflects that more robust image of what God’s doing and who he is.

And it’s not just a look at this one way of participation, but look at all these body parts that are participating together in this one work of Christ. I really appreciate that aspect of what you shared as well, because it can be easy, right, to get into our little niche and be like this is ministry. This is the most important aspect.

But if we’re talking about participation, it’s what are all of the ways that God’s calling us to participate in the ongoing work that he’s doing that might be outside of our window of vision. And when you are focused on a certain aspect of ministry that God has called you into that doesn’t mean that he’s not working in other spaces and places. Just because we have tunnel vision doesn’t mean that’s the only place that he is. So yeah, I think there’s a lot of wisdom in that. I really appreciate that.

And that aspect of it being active, I’m wondering what are some of the practices that can help us cultivate that active participation in kingdom living?

[00:13:50] Walter: I think we sometimes overestimate what our training can do and underestimate what people’s learning process can be if they just are sent out to try something.

I think about evangelism. I remember just early on, after I became a Christian, I had this kind of pretty radical transformation in high school. I became a Christian and then went away to this retreat and really had this outpouring of God’s Spirit upon my life. It was transformative — went into this retreat one way left, completely transformed. But I had no category for what just happened to me, and I didn’t really have any training.

But I remember coming back from this retreat, I was so overwhelmed by the joy of discovering Jesus that I was playing tennis with my tennis partner before the school year was starting. And just in the middle of our practice session, I stopped. I put down my racket and went to the other side of court and just listen, I need to tell you something about what just happened to my life.

And I realized looking back now, like I’m sure the gospel presentation that I made no sense and probably had a good bit of heresy thrown in because I had no training. I had a lot of passion. And what I got from that is, I’m so glad that I just had just did it rather than just say I can’t do this unless I read a certain number of books or get a certain number of training or …. No, hear me clearly training, reading, like all that’s good. We should have training programs on how to share our faith just as an example in this.

But sometimes we overestimate that if we just train people they’ll go do that and underestimate the passion of just experience. And what I experienced there actually led me to a journey of saying maybe I actually should read something to help me explain this better.

But I think it was important that it often happened in that way. And again, Jesus does that. He like calls people to himself and sends them out and does all sorts of stuff, and then he debriefs them and then says, okay, let me explain what this really is about and it’s this dance of experience and explanation that is often really important about participation.

Again. Yes. Get training, read books, go to seminars. But in the end, training will never replace passion, never replace experience, never replace the connection that you would get with someone as you’re trying to share your faith or trying to serve. And you’re going to realize, gosh, I need some help in this.

And then you go get the help. You’re, like, going to be so much more motivated. And this is where I, again, this idea of go do stuff together that we talked about last time.

Here’s a great opportunity. You, as a leader might be more trained than the person you’re bringing. One of the best ways to convince a person that they need training is to bring them with you and expose them to a situation that is so faith stretching that they begin to realize, the person begins to realize, I’m not really equipped for this.

But they wouldn’t know this unless they experienced something. And so, it’s a wonderful occasion for us to say, can we put ourselves in faith stretching moments to make us realize that we actually need more instruction rather than instruct people and hope that they will get inspired by that instruction to go do the thing.

Sometimes it’s better. Maybe most times it’s better because frankly, this is how children grow up. They experience something and then the parents help explain what just happened. I think discipleship often is like that. We go experience something and then we make sense of it through instruction.

[00:18:33] Cara: Yeah, it’s like participation can be our learning ground as disciples. And I think that that feels really profound because I think often we can be in context that are very like cognitive, that we have to wait until we understand things the right way or that we have to wait till we have all the right answers before we can do something that’s that overestimating of training I think that you speak about, and I think that at least in some of my experience, that part of that is this fear of oh, I will mess up. I have to wait until I know everything.

But maybe it’s okay to learn along the way. Maybe that’s part of the human experience. Maybe that is what we see in biblical accounts, and maybe there is something humbling about that as well, because if we rely only on our own understanding and expertise, maybe then it becomes about what we know and what we can understand, not about what we’re learning from one another and from God in the midst of this participation. So yeah, I think participation as that learning grounds is, that’s profound.

[00:20:07] Walter: When kids learn to walk — when my kids were learning to walk — I have two kids — when they were learning to walk, I didn’t look at them and as they were wobbling across the room, taking really fitful steps, falling down, I didn’t look at them and say, oh my goodness, I’m so embarrassed of you. Like, why can’t you get this better?

I celebrated it. And I think we need to recover something of this. You’re always going to be an amateur. You’re always going to be a toddler in the kingdom of God. In ministry, there’s nothing more humbling than the recognition that you’re never going to become the perfect expert, flawless in your performance the moment you get there. Oh my. May the Lord may humble you by putting you in a new faith stretching environment.

So much of this is the recognition that we need the grace of God. We are toddlers all learning to walk. We’re going to fall and that’s okay. We’re going to stumble. We’re not going have all the answers. And this is where we need to recognize this imagery that we are children of God. We are children of God. He calls us his children.

I think there’s something really important about accepting that. Again, I’m not encouraging us to have immature character and immature relationships, but I am encouraging us to say let’s put ourselves in situations where it’s okay to stumble because how else are you going learn how to walk?

I’m so glad my kids did not wait to learn how to walk until they went through a 10-week training program on walking. They just tried to walk. And in ministry again, yes, let’s train. But there’s no replacement for actually just trying stuff and then cheering one another on with the grace of being able to say, it’s okay to fail. Let’s, learn together.

[00:22:23] Cara: Yeah, absolutely. Another thing that comes to mind when I think about this, like, participatory element of kingdom living is this, maybe, I don’t know what word I want to use for it, but this way of maybe experiencing or approaching church community of faith expression, whatever you want to, word do you want to put to it that’s maybe a little bit more passive? Or sometimes we hear the word like consumption, right? Maybe very individualistic where you just show up to a very well put together church service and then you just you show up for that hour and a half and then you go home and then you do it again the next week. And that’s kind of it. That’s what your participation in discipleship looks like.

And so, I think about that in contrast to this kind of dynamic participation, skinning your knees as you’re learning and you’re growing with one another and with God that we’ve been talking about.

So, I’m, curious what thoughts you might have for us as we maybe encounter in our communities or even sometimes battle within ourselves this maybe temptation to have this like consumptive kind of faith where we just want to come take stuff and then go home and let it be about just like, all right, I’m going to consume this, and then that’s it, and then come back and consume some more, and then that’s it.

[00:24:04] Walter: Yeah. We have become a culture in which consumption is a default way of living. And convenience, I would add that, right? It’s not just consumption. It’s consumption combined with convenience that leads to a sense of passivity, right? Now we can consume, but we can consume at a click of the mouse and we can purchase things.

We don’t even have to go into our car and go to that thing called the mall and walk up and down different shops to find the sale that we are looking for. We don’t need to cut coupons. So even in our consumption, we have reduced it to clickable things, and even in the consumption of religious material, we don’t have to go to church, we can just go online. We don’t physically have to join. We could just be a part of a Facebook group. Again, I want to say there are ways in which these things can be used, so I’m not …

[00:25:10] Cara: Yes.

[00:25:10] Walter: … denigrating the fact that we can use technology really well. But I am saying that if we already live in a consumeristic culture, that’s our default setting that has now been coupled with a convenience culture. So, I have to consume, but I want that consumption now, the most convenient means possible, that for it to be the default setting of our discipleship is to be expected. If this is the bulk of our life, then why should we be surprised that we import this into how we think about our spiritual life, our life in the church?

And so, it’s an uphill battle. It’s a discipleship issue to get out of this consumerist mentality, this passive mentality. But once again there is this interesting moment that we’re in culturally, that even this consumerist notion is being challenged. Like it’s enough. Younger generations now have this interesting backlash to social media and a desire to perhaps be embodied. I was reading an article recently of how some students are responding to the banning of cell phones in their schools. And yeah. Okay. For the first several weeks it was like, oh, I can’t believe they’re banning these. But then students saying, thank you, and now I actually have to talk to people in the lunchroom. Now I am engaging with others around me. It’s like helping me see the world in a whole new way. Yes.

Cara: Yeah.

Walter: Yes. And there are ways that, in which I think within our churches, people might want this more than you realize. If they were invited to participate in something and actually experience something, not be preached at and told, oh, you should get out there, but just invited into experiencing something, I think that could be transformational.

There was a moment, I’ll give you a very tangible example as a younger Christian. I was invited — and I learned hospitality in a way that reading no book could ever do — to a dinner event hosted by someone at which there was, let’s say, someone from the other side of the tracks that was invited to that dinner, a person that struggled with homelessness. And I thought, wow, what am I experiencing here? I’m experiencing a vision of a of discipleship that is just a way of life in which this host is expressing hospitality to me personally, but actually making me engage in ways that I would not have in any other context in a conversation that humanized this person.

[00:28:24] Cara: Yeah.

[00:28:25] Walter: I could not look at someone who was homeless in the same way. That is participatory. That was an invitation. I wasn’t given a manual ahead of time. I wasn’t trained. I just was exposed. That exposure led to an experience. That experience led to a desire for equipping.

And, that’s where I would really encourage us to think about ways in which we can be inviting people to these types of experiences in our transformation. And, to think about not just lamenting consumerism, preaching against it, providing statistics, but providing an experience that makes non-consumerism so compelling. Why would I wish to live any other way than a way that’s disengaged?

[00:29:20] Cara: Yes. Thank you. I appreciate that. I appreciate all the insights that you’ve shared with us on our episode focusing on the participatory aspect of Kingdom Living. And as we prepare to close out our episode I want to invite you to pray for our church leaders and members and community members, neighbors as we seek to be transformed into more of a participatory people.

[00:29:51] Walter: Yes.

Lord Jesus, you said, go, and heavenly Father, you sent and Spirit you move people even now throughout the world to serve you in sacrificial ways, and you invite us not merely as individual followers of Jesus to service, but as communities, as churches, as small groups, as friends in Christ. And Lord, we want to heed your call to go, to make, and to be present in this world in the name of Jesus. Amen.

[00:30:42] Cara: Amen.

Thank you, folks, and until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel. Thanks for listening. We would love to hear from you. Email us@infoatgci.org. We hope to see you at the 2026 denominational celebration in Texas from July 23rd to July 26^th, 2026. Visit us at gci.org/dc26 for more information and to register.

Cara: In 2026, the GC Podcast is shifting to a new format with two miniseries released throughout the year rather than monthly episodes. This change is going to allow us to go deeper into meaningful conversations that support our shared journey of kingdom living. In the first half of the year, we’re excited to launch the series with Reverend Dr. Walter Kim, president of the National Association of Evangelicals and the keynote speaker for the 2026 denominational celebration. In this series, Dr. Kim joins me to explore what it means to live as citizens of God’s kingdom in today’s world: faithful to Christ, formed in community, and engaged in mission. So, stay tuned for this rich and timely series.

Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. GC Podcast is created to support the best ministry practices in your own GCI context. I’m Cara Garrity, your host. And today we are beginning our miniseries to explore kingdom living and its elements as participatory, relational, missional, and transformational.

And today to help us do that, we have Reverend Dr. Walter Kim with us. Walter Kim is president of the National Association of Evangelicals. He earned his PhD at Harvard. Was chaplain at Yale and has served in diverse pastoral ministries. He’s on the Board of World Relief, Christianity Today, and Salvation Army, USA, he’s often sought out for theological and cultural commentary on issues facing the church and society.

And so, Walter, we thank you so much for joining us today to explore this really meaningful theme that we have for 2026, Kingdom Living.

[00:01:57] Walter: Cara, it’s a delight to be on this podcast with you.

[00:02:01] Cara: Yes. And so, I’m really excited for this theme and to explore these different elements of what kingdom living can look like.

For this miniseries, we’re really exploring what it means to live as citizens of God’s kingdom in today’s world, and what does it look like to live faithfully in Christ, to be formed in community, and engaged in a mission.

And so, our first element that we’re going to dive into is relational. What does it mean for us to live relationally? And so, that’s where I want to start. What does it mean for kingdom living to be relational, Walter?

[00:02:43] Walter: Yeah. I mean, that’s a great question and it’s a great place to start because, in fact, this is where Scripture starts. God sought to be in relationship, because in his very being God is relational as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the triune God. Internally in the great mystery of God’s own being there is built-in relationship.

And even so, it is this deep desire of God to create other, to create humanity. And I love the fact that in the opening chapter of Genesis and the description of the creation of humans in the image of God, it was very clear that when God created humans, he had community in mind, because he didn’t just say, God created the individual in the image of God, it said God created humanity, male and female, in the image of God.

There’re all sorts of things and implications that we could draw from that. But one thing that I think is very essential is that this notion that we need others, that we are intended for community is built into creation itself, is built in what it means to be even human — that we need other.

And when we think about all the metaphors of the church: family, building.

We have this notion of not just individuals who have been saved into the kingdom. We have been saved into a family. We have been saved into a building where each brick has a role. And that itself I think, is deeply informative to how we think about at the foundation of creation, at the foundation of the recreation of God’s humanity in the church is essentially this deep commitment to relationship — relationship with God, relationship between humans.

And so, whatever kingdom living entails, whatever it means to be disciples, it’s not just a bunch of individuals following Jesus individually. We have been embedded in a community, in a relationship.

[00:05:07] Cara: Yes. And I love how you really start with, Scripture starts there, from creation, from the foundations, that relationship is there and even in whom God is.

So, at the end of the day, we can say there, there is really no version of kingdom living that isn’t relational. There has to be relationship. And life itself really is relational because it has been designed that way. I think that is really critical for us to be thinking about that and learning how do we live that out with one another.

And one of the things that we want to focus on and dive into in this aspect of relational kingdom living is the aspect of God’s calling and gifting to us and, how do we hear and discover and respond to his call in our lives. And so, I’m wondering what does it look like for calling and gifting to be discovered within relationship, both with God and with others?

[00:06:15] Walter: Yeah, I think so many cases, while it may be helpful to take a personality test or some vocational training, in the end, most of us, we experience a set of blessings and opportunities that help us discern what God’s call might be upon our lives.

It may be in a community where we’ve led a small group and we begin to discover, wow, other people are telling me that I’m really good at asking questions or I’m really good at listening to people. And all of a sudden you begin to have this growing sense of perhaps the Lord is calling me in this way.

Or maybe you’ve been able to lead some friends of yours to Christ, and you begin to have the community affirm that you have a knack for explaining Jesus and such winsome and compelling ways, or it could be a speaking gift that was given, or you just show up in hospitality.

Yeah. Okay. There are places for figuring out our personalities and taking tests and maybe even a spiritual gifts inventory, but by and large we often experience our way into seeing and understanding our call through the ways that we have lived it out in relationships, in community, and in fact, this is what we see in scriptures. We see God’s people saying, “Paul, Barnabas, we see something in you,” and in period of prayer and discernment that the leaders of the church in Antioch gather together and lay hands and send them out.

This happened in community as they were undoubtedly serving and living out their giftedness and having God’s people affirm it and then bless them and send them out. So, I think both our personal experience and, once again, Scripture gives us this convergence of affirmation that so much of the discovery and discernment of our call comes through trying and living and doing and having God’s people affirm and shape and redirect us.

[00:08:36] Cara: Yeah. And I really appreciate both those elements of what we’re experiencing, but also what others are speaking into our lives and what they’re noticing and discerning with us and the dynamics of that, that there’s this dynamic in relationship where it’s not just an equation of, well, X plus Y equals Z and so this is what my calling or spiritual gifting is.

But that’s something that happens within that community and relationship. And so, I wonder too, how then can our response to God’s calling and gifting, maybe once we’ve discerned it, once our community has affirmed it in us, maybe commissioned us in that, how can our response be lived out relationally?

[00:09:28] Walter: Yeah. So much of the Christian life is the realization that you’re always an amateur. So, one thing that I would put out — this is after decades of walking with the Lord and serving the Lord in a variety of context — is you never graduate beyond the common basic lesson that God loves me, that my identity is rooted in Christ and not in my performance. That it is always about dependence.

Of course, grow in wisdom, grow in expertise and skill. But as we do so, there is simultaneously the temptation as we grow in expertise to trust our expertise. And to lose that simple dependence upon the Lord.

And so there are a couple of things that I would once again put out there for us to consider and that is, as we serve the Lord, that we need to continue to put ourselves in context of constant feedback, of being able to receive the affirmations and the critiques of God’s people.

Good thing David had Nathan in his life, that even way into his kingship, Nathan was able to speak truth and confrontation to someone who began so incredibly well — slaying Goliath, delivering God’s people from the Philistines, being the model king that Jesus would be named son of David. And yet later, after all this success, he became arrogant and entitled and fell into sin. And it required someone to speak a word of truth.

So, we always need to put ourselves in a posture of dependence upon the Lord, of remembering and fostering our first love, of recognizing we might grow in expertise, but we never graduate beyond dependence, and that we always need people in our lives who will speak truth to us, who will guide us, who will encourage us. We need Nathans to challenge us. We need Barnabases to bless us and encourage us, and we need the body of Christ to constantly be working out with us our mutual calling.

I really think it’s important for us, particularly in such an individualized context and time where we’re always trying to figure out what is my calling. My calling has no real value apart from its communal impact. Each of us, according to Corinthians, have been given a gift for the common good. So, it’s not so much that we’re, “I need to be true to myself and true to my calling,” it is, “you need to be true to the community into which that calling gets exercised.”

And so that I, once again, I think is a profound challenge for us to always be working things out collaboratively in community, even if some of our gifting is one that often gets applied in a personal context. Like, you may be a counselor and you think, oh, it’s the personal wisdom that I might have.

But many, those in the counseling field, recognize they need those moments where they’re talking to colleagues and working out, “Give me some wisdom here. What can I be learning?” So, I would wish to affirm that we constantly need each other in the living out of our calling. This is not the individual saying, “I got my calling. I’m good. I’m just going to go do my thing for Jesus.” Your thing for Jesus comes in the context of community.

[00:13:40] Cara: There’s so much richness in what you just shared. I really appreciate that. A couple things that I want to pull out that really spoke to me: you can grow in expertise but not out of dependence. I think that that’s huge. What I want to get from that is we can’t exist and use our calling out of relationship in kind of any way, right? Because we don’t come out of dependence on God. And so, what does it mean to use our callings and our giftings outside of relationship with God? Is there even a reality in which that exists? Not really. But to be aware of that and to remember that I think is really incredible reminder.

And then I think also you’re speaking maybe to that temptation to live individually, that reminder that our giftings aren’t for us, at the end of the day, that we need to be living them out, using them in the context of community, because it’s not just well, like me in my little corner using my … what  uses that. I think that’s a really timely and helpful reminder.

[00:15:02] Walter: Yeah. Cara, I think there are a couple of things. Just even your reflecting back just reaffirms to me the challenge that we often think and confront when we confront the issue of calling in our particular day and age, and one is this notion that our calling is primarily about our fulfillment.

I have this need to use gifts. I have this desire to be fulfilled in ministry, and you look at Scripture and you think, of course, God is concerned with your happiness and fulfillment, but that’s actually very, very much not how calling is described, right? Paul looks at his calling: go to 2 Corinthians.

Instead, 1 Corinthians and he has this laundry list of three occasions: I’ve been persecuted, I’ve been shipwrecked. There’s sleepless nights. I have the burden of the church constantly upon me. And one time I was stoned and left the city and went back into the city.

There wasn’t so much about, “I’m called to be apostle because it’s so deeply satisfying and I find meaning in this and fulfillment, and this is why I’m an apostle.” It’s almost, “I am, I’m an apostle, and I actually don’t know how humanly fulfilling it actually is, other than deeply fulfilling in knowing that I serve the purposes of God, deeply fulfilling that even in the sacrifice there is an exceedingly great weight of glory that awaits for me, that makes all the afflictions of this lifetime feel light and momentary, and the opportunity to enter into a deeper understanding of the love of God and the deep satisfaction of the community of God.”

It’s like when we sacrifice deeply for those in our church, in our communities, when we’ve walked long roads of suffering with someone with a debilitating illness. I’m just going to get really personal here. We cared for my brother most of his adult life, 30 years. He lived with us in our family or lived near to us. You had a variety of challenges. He passed away not too long ago and I often thought about in this period of reflection, “What was the point of that? All those years?”

The point of it was the gift of walking with someone. It’s probably not something that most people will know about, though I’m mentioning it now, but I would look back and say, “Oh yeah, there’s my public ministry. There’re the things that people will know about and then there’s this long ministry, deeply personal of just loving it and caring for someone imperfectly.

But it was as much a call upon my life as anything public that I’ve ever done. And in the end to know that he went to be with the Lord and died in faith and that I had sensed deeply from the Lord, “Your race with him is finished. Thank you. Well done.” Again, not perfectly. Cara, I think about that and the kind of way in which we are often called to just faithfully walk with the Lord and in the end, was it deeply fulfilling?

Absolutely. But fulfilling in a way that was so surprising and unexpected. And so, to recognize that our call can be one that in our moment may not feel fulfilling at all except for fulfilling the purposes of God, except for walking with someone who might drive us nuts. But years, decades later, discovering the joy of having been invited to care or love or walk with you — you fill in the blank. And that’s the kind of slow burn ministry that is often not the attractive ministry. We want the bright flash. And yet the Lord will often make sure that even those of us who might have bright, flashy moments in our ministry, we’ll be called to be faithful in the slow burn of someone in our life, and that might be the greater test of our faithfulness in ministry.

[00:20:13] Cara: Walter, first I want to thank you for sharing that. That’s a beautiful testament to the ways God has called you and worked in and through and around you and your family in your life. So, thank you for sharing that personal story with us.

We’re blessed by that. And I think even opening that awareness to us, that calling really is bringing us into the fulfillment of God’s purposes and not just our own kind of sense of personal satisfaction, I think is huge. Because in that moment, maybe it doesn’t feel great, right?

But when we talk about calling, it’s not necessarily what do we want to do? What’s that big superhero ministry moment? But how are we being invited into just playing a part in God’s overall purposes. And sometimes playing that small part in what God is doing around us is costly, is the knit and grit, the good, bad, and the ugly.

And I think that is really important, especially in our context, for us personally and corporately, to wrestle with that because I think we like the good and the flashy a lot more than the bad and the ugly, right? We want to feel very good about our calling. We got called to this really great glamorous thing, or we want to latch onto this one task or this one ministry as a sense of calling, not necessarily as a way of being or walking with somebody. And so, I really appreciate that description of calling that you’ve offered to us as well. Thank you.

[00:22:07] Walter: Yeah. My first assignment you mentioned I was a campus minister, worked as a chaplain at Yale, and my director, this was fresh out of college, my first ministry assignment, and one of my earliest conversations with the director is, let me give you some perspective on ministry.

Ministry is people. People are messy. Therefore, ministry will be messy.

[00:22:35] Cara: Yes.

[00:22:35] Walter: That was like the first lesson of ministry showing up on campus. So eager to share my faith and love students and being told by my director, ministry is people, people are messy. Therefore, ministry is going to be messy. And I think life has proven that to be very, very true.

[00:22:58] Cara: Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, what wise ways to start your ministry? And I think, as we’ve been discussing, you’ve shared a lot of really meaningful insights into why and how relationships are at the center of kingdom living and the riches and the beauty of that.

And so, I’m wondering maybe what are some practices or rhythms for us in our church communities and neighborhoods? What can we do to help us nurture that relational nature of kingdom living in our own contexts?

[00:23:40] Walter: Yeah. When Jesus sent people out, he sent them out in twos. When he was in the Garden of Gethsemane — this is the Son of God, right? He’s in the Garden of Gethsemane and he wants Peter, James, and John to be with him, to be praying with him — the intimacy of that. Again, Paul, Barnabas went out together and if you look at a lot of Paul’s letters, they were written with Silas or some other, someone else as well.

So, all throughout Scripture we get this deep sense that folks were sent in ministry teams. They were sent in context in which they were to share the joys and the sorrows of ministry with others. One practical thing is, “Who can I be doing this with?” Always asking the question. “Who, can I bring along as I am trying this?”

And then also to be thinking, again, as Paul often did, “Who are the people that I’m seeking to mentor?” The admonition to Timothy of finding faithful people who you would be able to teach and then they would be able to teach others as well. So, thinking about, “Who are folks that you could be building into?” And then of course, “Who are the folks that you can be learning from?”

And so, constantly asking those questions, just practically, “As I do this particular thing who can I be bringing along?” And it could be actually doing something together, co-leading something, but it also could be as simple as, “I’m working on this project and rather than just fulfilling this project, but on my own, just say, I want to pass this by you. Can you give me some advice?”

And to constantly be asking that, even if it’s like preparing your own sermon. Do we take the time to say before we actually get up on a Sunday to preach? “Did I vet this stuff with someone else? Did I invite someone else to gimme some feedback in my dialoguing with how this passage is working itself out?”

One is to constantly be asking, “Who can I bring along? Who could I be building into? Who can I be learning from?” And to have that corporate relational mentality with the type of ministry that I’m pursuing.

[00:26:17] Cara: Thank you. That’s a really practical place for us to … practical and I think really impactful place for us to really be intentional about bringing in these rhythms and practice of being relational in the ways that we live out the kingdom in our communities. So, I appreciate that. And I’m wondering, as we get ready to close up this first mini episode of our series: Any final words that you have for our listeners about the relational component of kingdom living?

[00:26:56] Walter: Yeah. I think, perhaps there’s no better way to end than Jesus’ prayer in John 17. What was on Jesus’ mind and heart the night before he was betrayed and he was going to die? You would think whatever’s of utmost importance. I’m going to emphasize that he thinks back to the years of ministry.

“This is my final chance to solidify a final lesson before I’m crucified.” So, the last earthly night with his disciples. And what does he do? He prays. He prays for them to be one, even as he’s one with the Father, that they would be one, so that the world would know. So, I think to recognize that this relational aspect of kingdom living is so important, that it was Jesus’ final thought and final prayer for us before he was crucified.

And to recognize that by putting in Scripture and by knowing that Jesus even now is constantly making intercession on our behalf. What is he praying? My guess is that he’s still praying John 17 for us. And so, to recognize that it’s not only important, but we actually have Jesus praying for us to live kingdom lives that are relational.

[00:28:42] Cara: Thank you. We love to have our guests close our episodes out with a word of prayer for our leaders, our members, our church neighbors. And so, would you be willing to say a word of prayer over our listeners and their people?

[00:29:07] Walter: Yeah, absolutely.

Heavenly Father, thank you that you yourself sent your beloved Son, and even now have given us fellowship with the Spirit, three in one. We praise you that you are relationship in being. And we recognize that our call is the call into this life of relationship. Your prayer was that we would be one with you, with one another, and that through that loving community give witness to the world of who Jesus is and the eternal life given to us in him. We pray that whatever the situation we may find ourselves in, whatever messiness of relationship that we may find ourselves in, that we trust your call upon our life to enter into it and fulfill your purposes through it. In the beautiful name of Jesus, we pray. Amen.

[00:30:15] Cara: Amen. Thank you.

And until next time, folks, keep on living and sharing the gospel. Thanks for listening. We would love to hear from you; email us info@gci.org. And we hope to see you at the 2026 Denominational Celebration in Texas from July 23 – July 26, 2026. Visit us at gci.org/dc26 for more information and to register.

Bharat: My pleasure, Cara. Thank you.

Cara: And today we’re going to be continuing our exploration of our 2025 theme of kingdom culture. And we’re going to do that by continuing our conversation of our investment of time, talent, and treasure in the kingdom.

And today we’re going to be focusing specifically on talent. And so, Bharat, I’m wondering, just to start us off. What would you say? What does our talent have to do with kingdom culture? And by that talent, meaning our gifts and our strengths and the things that we are gifted and led to give to our surroundings and our teams and things of that sort.

[00:01:29] Bharat: Yes. Thank you, Cara, for that question. I find it interesting in reflecting on 1 Corinthians where they thought they were so gifted. And then Paul had to remind them that really it is God who works in us to do what is good and what is best. And in that sense, they had to die to themselves and allow Christ to work in them. And to know that, in that sense, it doesn’t matter whether we have few gifts, as it were, in our own eyes or if we think we have plenty of gifts. Either way, it’s all in submission to Christ, without whom we can do nothing.

So, I would say that as far as the kingdom culture and the kingdom of God is concerned, it is clearly God’s calling. It’s God’s gifting. It’s God work, God’s work in us. And, without that, even if we bring gifting to the table, it may need to be crucified before it can be used. And that sounds very painful but God’s gifting is a wonderful thing.

And he has equipped everyone with talents and giftings. We are made in his image. We already are gifted just with the gift of reflecting God in our being as created in His image. So, already God has already blessed us so tremendously, and yeah, so it’s wonderful to be called to serve with our talents in the purpose that God calls us to.

[00:03:11] Cara: Yeah. Thank you for that.

And I think that sets us off in a really meaningful place, because like you said, it’s about what we’ve been gifted from God and that that is offered through us, not about what we feel like we ourselves are bringing to the table on our own by ourselves, but all coming from God. And I think that’s a really important place for us to start because we start from that humble posture of receiving, not from that arrogant posture of I’m bringing this talent, I’m bringing something to the table that’s of me and only me, and so I’m better than somebody else, or maybe I’m less than somebody else. And there’s comparison in that way. But it’s about what God is doing in and through us and how he’s reflecting who he is through his people.

And I love how you say even our talents might have to be crucified, because in that sense we’re talking about the stewardship of our talents. Maybe they do need to be refined in that way, transformed in that way because there maybe are things about our talents, that maybe we do sometimes have selfish motivations about it or arrogant motivations.

And it doesn’t mean that that’s not the gifting God has given us. We just need to be discipled in that area so that our use of that gifting reflects the kingdom more so than this kind of dynamic of the world where, maybe, we’re like, I’m better than you because I have this gift. So, I think that’s such an important place that you’ve started us off with.

[00:04:52] Bharat: It’s a reminder from from this book called Crucifixion of Ministry. We see so many mega ministries, not to put them down or put anyone down, but the issue is that when we trumpet our gifts, as in, I will build a church, I will build a ministry, I will be superhero, then the issue becomes time and again this crucifixion of ministry. Clearly people have all … anything we have comes from God. Life comes from God. Gifts come from God. Everything comes from God. But it is to be channeled for kingdom service. And so, it has to be reshaped, not in the form of the world, but in the form of Christ.

[00:05:45] Cara: Yes. And I think even, I love that you referenced, like in 1 Corinthians and the Corinthian church, how they felt like, yeah, we have all of these gifts and talents and things like that, that as the church we bring to the table. Because Paul, as he addresses them later on, as he’s talking about those gifts and their role in the church, then he goes on to say, but essentially like it’s all useless without love, right? What’s the use of these things without love? Because love is the greatest way.

And so, I think that even this is a good reminder for us. What does it tangibly look like for our talents and our gifts, our strengths that we’re bringing to the table in our lives in ministry, to be being refined in that way. Is it being used and offered in love? Is it being expressed in love? And if not where we may be just — I love that expression — like clanging symbols, right? So, I really love that you referenced that kind of dynamic in Corinthians.

[00:06:59] Bharat: Moses said, “Look, I don’t have the gift of speaking and I don’t think I can do this job. See you later.” But God, when God calls someone for a purpose, he does not just change his mind about that. He doesn’t withdraw his calling. He’s going to work through, with that person. So, whichever way we come at the gifting thing, where thinking we don’t have any gifts, well, Moses was told, “Look, I’m the one who equips you anyway.”

[00:07:32] Cara: I love that. That’s an excellent reminder, too, in all ways it’s really coming from God. Whether we feel ill-equipped or over-equipped, it’s about what God is doing and how he’s leading us even to use these gifts he’s given us.

[00:07:47] Bharat: Absolutely.

[00:07:48] Cara: Yeah. And so, I was just wondering what it has looked like for you to be discipled in your investment of your own talents, your own giftings in the kingdom.

[00:07:59] Bharat: Yes. Thank you for asking that. Looking back, really, I realize that God does work through other people clearly. And it’s not just a matter of whatever giftings he has just given me, but also the way others come. Encouragers, like Paul had Barnabas to come by his side and help him in the growth of his ministry. And I think mentors and supporters or encouragers are very important in this journey. I found that as I was beginning in my Christian life, there were people who had journeyed ahead, who encouraged me in one way or the other, to say, “Hey, why don’t you join with me in public speaking? Or why don’t you do this? Have you considered this?” And I think of a couple of those examples.

So, my discipleship has been helped through the encouragement of others, I feel, including my ministry call. Because it was at a particular juncture when my wife and I were newly married, that we came across a person who right away, for some reason, saw something, that we were newlyweds and that we were young, that we can be discipled further, and they encouraged us to to come to college, to go to college in United States, or to consider applying for college and to see where God leads us. And that was theological course.

So, it changed our life completely, because of someone tapping on our shoulders and saying, “Have you considered this?” So, I’ve been discipled, if you like, through the help of others, as well as God working in me for his purpose, and helping me grow in whatever giftings he has given me.

[00:10:11] Cara: I really love hearing that example of how the church, as a community, as a body of people is lived out in this, that you’ve been discipled in those relationships, and that the community of the church has worked that way for you, and that this isn’t something that we do in isolation.

And so, I wonder, it makes me think about the Christian discipleship pathway that you guys are using in Australia to continue to disciple and develop the giftings and the callings and the ministry participation of some emergent leaders across the country. And so, can you just share a little bit more about that and how that is creating a space to support the discipleship and stewardship of their talents and their giftings into the kingdom.

[00:11:09] Bharat: Absolutely. I would love to discuss that because it’s been an exciting two years in this process. We are in the second year of our Christian discipleship pathway.

So, it began, of course, about three years ago when we were considering how best we can implement a ministry training center in our region that is Australia, New Zealand, Pacific Islands like Fiji and Solomon Islands and Papua New Guinea. This is the region that we are serving in, that Daphne is leading as the superintendent in this area.

And her heart was for how can we best serve? And part of that was getting some help from outside in consulting for how can we implement a future-looking plan, a vision. And we came up with the help of another ministry person outside of Grace Communion who sort of held the mirror for us as a leadership team.

And from that, one of the things we identified was the need to build up leaders and to build up new leaders as well. So, for young and old, so to speak — when I say old, I don’t mean … I think that there is prospect for ministry at every stage of life. Some of our best, if you like, servants are people even in their eighties and even early nineties. So, it’s never too late to minister, no matter where we are, what stage of life we’re in. It’s just the shape of that ministry and the opportunities might differ at different ages. But we felt strongly that we want to do something to equip and disciple people further in whatever they’re doing or if they’re not doing, to encourage them to grow.

So, the Christian Discipleship Pathway came about as a result of considering the MTC for our region. But we realized that maybe we need a bit more broader approach to include the sort of realities of our region. We are spread out and it’s hard to have a concentration of a group for starting, at this stage, starting a ministry training center. So we thought let’s do something still in the region of developing people. And we are blessed with Ambassador College of Christian Ministry based here —ACCM.

And so, we thought, why don’t we combine mentoring in one term and then encouraging those same people to continue on with qualification in ministry through ACCM. So, it’s a twofold calendar year. The first term is on developing skills, if you like, softer skills or ministry skills that are not academically oriented, per se, and to encourage how they can serve in their local area.

This discipleship focus has gone in a threefold way. One is how can they serve all throughout the year in their particular area. The second thing is to equip them with practical skills in the first term and discuss those and encourage those. And this is all happening through Zoom in terms of actual teaching.

And then in the second term they get to enroll in the Ambassador College of Christian Ministry. And already we’ve ended the second year. So, the first year was Jesus and the Gospels, second year course was spiritual formation.

So, that’s what we’ve done and we’ve had, oh, over 40 people each year enroll from across the region. And it’s been really exciting to see that.

[00:15:25] Cara: That is an encouraging thing to hear about, and I think one of the themes that I pull out of that again as well as with your own experience that you shared is coming together in community to be developed and discipled, to come together in community as we grow. And what are the ways that God has gifted us and drawn us into ministry participation? And that we don’t do it alone. There are ways that others can speak life into us. There are ways that others can help to develop what God has already put there.

There are ways that we can be encouraged, that we can be mentored. I love that mentoring is one of the aspects of the CDP and it has those kind of multidimensional aspects, where you have the academic, you have the hands-on, you have the relational, you have the what does this look like? Long term in your local kind of context, what does it look like? Today, right now, what skills are you needing and developing? And I think a key thing that I wanna draw out for the listeners is that it’s intentional. What I heard is what you guys are doing is very intentional. And I think that that is one way that we can shape our stewardship of our talents personally as well as corporately to shape our stewardship of talents in the kingdom is to be intentional about how are we discipling one another? What spaces are we creating to do that? And I’m just so encouraged hearing about your CDP and what that engagement has looked like.

[00:17:15] Bharat: Yes. Thank you, Kara. And you bring out two good points that I want to reemphasize or to talk from our experience, and that intentionality was the driving force in creating the CDP. I well remember the first times we’d started discussing and the road for us as leaders wasn’t clear as to how we’ll go about doing this. But we were all of one mind as we prayed about it and discussed it and even what to call this new intentional vehicle, if you like. And we thought discipleship has really got to be at the core of this thing. And so, create a pathway where not just some of our students are young in their twenties, especially in Fiji, and it’s exciting to see avenue leaders, young leaders, as well as we’ve had some students who are still serving in their eighties, who have agreed to participate and at different stages. Not everyone goes from one year to the other, but we get a mix of different ones each year.

The other aspect that I want to emphasize, which you mentioned, was mentoring. Daphne was very keen to see that the students are not just left — the participants, I should say — are not just left with the Zoom sessions, but have someone to talk it over with, a mentor that could encourage them.

So, each participant is assigned a helper, a mentor with whom they could discuss their progress. So, this has been really good because that is outside of, if you like, the gathering stage where we gather to over Zoom. They may be able to meet their mentor locally or sometimes even across regions. And this has been fruitful in terms of even cross-regional development and individual mentoring of participants. Some of the participants are already experienced and elders already serving. Others, as I said, are brand new students, young students who are starting off. So, that variety is also good because in that community setting there, everyone is learning together, humbly encouraging one another, and just growing in that process.

So yes, it’s an exciting, intentional process and we don’t have it all figured out, but we’ve started by the grace of God. And so, we’ve started in this adventure of learning and growth and we just hope we can build upon it as we finish off this year. And we are already looking at now how do we go about the third year?

And one very important aspect of that ongoing development is this, going back to how I was tapped on the shoulder by others and encouraged along the way. In participation we are encouraging all the pastors to see who’s serving, who can serve, and to tap them on the shoulder, encourage them to participate.

[00:20:51] Cara: Yes. Oh, there’s so much richness there in what you just said. I think the first thing that really spoke to me is in the mentoring and in kind of the multi-generational participation in this development pathway, I think two things are really important that I want our listeners to hear from what you’re sharing is when we have that mentoring, then there’s multiple ways that people are able to be investing their giftings in the kingdom because mentoring’s also a gift. And being able to pour into others is a gift to the church community.

And so, what a beautiful way to intentionally create space for that to happen and for that to happen in an ongoing way. And I think the way that you guys have created a space for people at different life stages to, like you said, humbly be engaging and growing in what their discipleship and what their ministry participation looks like is so important because our lives are not static, because our God is not static, right?

And so, stewarding our talents, I believe, is a lifelong process, because maybe at different stages of life, we have different skill sets that are more meaningful to us than others. Maybe we’ve learned things that we didn’t know before. Maybe we have access to information and knowledge and networks that we didn’t before.

There’s so many things that are dynamic about our lives. Our callings can be dynamic. And so, to create a space where we’re intentionally saying — you don’t say yes to one thing at one point in your life, and that’s it for forever. I think is a beautiful thing that you guys are doing, a very dynamic way of stewarding and discipling our giftings.

So, I love that. And I think also what I don’t want our listeners to miss is what you said about that shoulder tapping. I think that shoulder tapping makes me think of the Engage of our Four Es, tapping on the shoulder and saying, “Hey, I see this gifting in you. I see what God is doing in you, what he’s put in you. Do you want to come along and participate? Do you want to see what it would be like to develop this gift, to exercise it in the ministry of our local congregation? And to be discipled in that way?” I think that’s huge, because how many of us, if it wasn’t for someone tapping us on the shoulder and saying, “Hey, I see what God has put in you,” if it wasn’t for that, how many of us would even be where we are today? So yes. Thank you for mentioning that shoulder tapping. I think that, I agree with you that is so critical.

[00:23:43] Bharat: Absolutely. And then yeah, and it’s encouraging also to see when, say — I’m thinking of one particular person who there was an opportunity in a service to say, “Would you like to do reading?” because the person who was supposed to do a scripture reading could not come. And they said, “Yeah, sure I’ll do the reading.” And they were a new member. But I’ve seen that person grow and they’re actually one of our chief participants. I won’t embarrass them, but they’ve grown so much through just being invited to participate and to contribute in a small way. And that’s just blossomed out into this whole continuous growth. And in a short period of time, too, like in a couple of years, they’re serving in a tremendous way. So, one never knows these turning points, how tapping someone on the shoulder for even a small invitation to participate can change, be the start of that leaven leavening the whole lump type of thing, where they just start growing by the grace of what God is doing in their lives. And, and I like your statement about creating space.

[00:25:04] Cara: Yes. That’s an excellent example. And I think even starts to answer the last question that I had for you today, for our listeners that are hearing this conversation and are like, “This sounds really rich, really meaningful. What is the next step for us?”

My question for you is, what is one way we can practice the discipleship, the stewardship, the investment of our talents in the kingdom? And so, I think some of the things you’ve just mentioned start to answer that already. So, what else would you add to that for our listeners who are wanting to move forward with stewarding giftings into the kingdom?

[00:25:46] Bharat: Yes. I would say an openness. Sometimes we all have our own fears and concerns about our own abilities. And we find in scripture that even to Mary, who’s encountered, or the disciples, one of the first things God says is, “Don’t fear. Be at peace. Be open to the opportunity.”

And so, what am I saying? I’m saying that as one intentional way that people can respond is, when an opportunity comes, to trust God to walk them through it and not to close the door on an opportunity to serve in some way. Even if you feel, I’m not equipped for this opportunity, trust God that if he has opened the door to try to see where that leads. If that sounds too mystical, but you know what I’m saying, be responsive. That’s what I’m talking about.

[00:26:56] Cara: Yes. No, absolutely. I think that is great advice for our listeners because when we’re open, that leaves us open to the discerning of the Spirit and whatever next step God is inviting us into.

So, thank you for sharing that wisdom with us and for the richness of your entirety of the insights that you’ve shared with us today, Bharat. I am so thankful for what God is doing through the CDP, what he’s done through your life and leadership, and so thankful for you taking the opportunity to pass those insights along to us today.

As we like to do with GCPodcast we love to end the show with prayer and so, would you be willing to pray for our leaders, our churches, our members, and listeners across GCI?

[00:27:49] Bharat: It’d be my pleasure to pray for others. Yes.

Thank you, Lord. We just thank you for the wonderful blessing you’ve given us of including us in your mind and in your communion as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We thank you that you are, you delight in us, that you delight in seeing us grow, and we have so much growing to do, each one of us, and it is only possible in Christ. As it says you are the vine, we are the branches, and we want to be fruitful in the calling that you’ve given us.

So, I want to pray for all those who are listening today, and even those who may not be listening, those who’ve been called to serve in whatever way. I just pray, Father, that we in Grace Communion can continue to hear your call to grow, to participate in Kingdom work, to continue to recognize that we are kingdom servants and that is our primary call in life as your people. So, help us to be not just citizens of the Kingdom, but to be ambassadors. And as ambassadors, help us to grow in that in that capacity to serve in the unique locations in which you place us and help us to grow in our giftings by by being open to you as you work in our life. So, we seek your blessing, Lord, and thank you so much. In Jesus’ name we pray. Amen.

[00:29:32] Cara: Amen. Folks, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thank you for listening to the GC Podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org. And remember, healthy churches grow from hearts grounded in Christ. As you invest in yourself and your leaders, keep your eyes on Jesus, our faithful guide and sustaining hope.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches. I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am happy to have Alexander Brandt as our guest. Alexander is a pastor at GCI Winnipeg, and today we’re going to continue our conversation exploration of our 2025 theme Kingdom Culture by continuing this conversation about our investment of time, talent, and treasure, and the kingdom.

Today we’re going to be focusing on our investment of time. So, Alexander, thank you so much for joining us today.

Alexander: Of course. Thank you. It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

[00:00:49] Cara: Absolutely. And so, as we jump right on in, I’m just curious: From your perspective, what does our time even have to do with this idea of kingdom culture?

[00:01:01] Alexander: Oh, that’s a great question. I think one of, I’m just going to go back to my history a little bit, and one of the things I grew up wondering was about time and I also started looking at time as a commodity that I could spend. And I realized that I wasn’t probably giving a tithe of my time, even though there’s no scripture that tells you to give a tithe of your time.

But I was considering how much time it actually takes to give a tithe and on the one hand, it feels like it’s too much, like you’re asking for 16 hours a week, which seems significant. And yet, as I got older, I realized the whole idea of giving tithe of time is really not accurate to what God is asking of us or what Jesus is requiring of us. In fact, if we want to make it a requirement, what Jesus is asking for is all of our time, all of it, to invest all of us. So, it really isn’t something that we can give a 10% of. It’s something that God wants: all of us, including all of our time.

And it simultaneously lifted the burden off me to feel like, okay, I have to spend four hours serving. I have to spend four hours reading my Bible. I have to spend four hours looking for different opportunities, and then another four hours doing church. It lifted a burden off me so that I could actually spend my time devoted to God.

And on the other hand, it felt like, wow, that’s such a more significant amount of investment because now I have to consider how I’m investing every moment. I just try not to think about it legalistically. I just strive to recognize that me and everything I am and I have is kingdom-based and belongs to the kingdom.

[00:03:31] Cara: Yeah. I really like thinking that perspective and that insight of all of us belongs to the kingdom and to Jesus. And so that’s everything that we have, including time.

And I think that idea of like even time as a commodity is really interesting to me because I think we don’t often reflect on how we spend our time and where we spend our time and what we spend our time doing. But to think of it as a resource in that sense and how is everything that we have invested in the kingdom. I think it’s a really interesting question for us to be reflective of and really to be discerning and praying about.

And so, you’ve shared like a little bit of what this has looked like for you personally in that journey. And so, can you share a little bit more of what it’s looked like for you to be discipled in investing your time in the kingdom? What has that journey looked like? How have you been shaped in this shifting perspective?

[00:04:32] Alexander: Yeah, absolutely. As I was entering into pastoral ministry almost 10 years ago. Then I was working as a lay minister and I was working a full-time job, probably putting in over 50 hours a week at a job that actually paid me. And then I was putting in a lot of extra time for the church and preparing sermons, getting ready for bible studies, trying to work with one-on-one discipleship mentoring kind of stuff.

And then, in the little bit of downtime that I would have, I would end up feeling like, okay, I just want to crash. I just want to essentially waste time. And I found that during that time I would end up feeling more burnt out by wasting my time instead of investing my time. And I slowly begin to realize that you can spend your time doing almost the exact same things, but when you have a different perspective of what you’re doing with your time.

If, for instance, you could waste your time watching TV, but you could invest your time watching TV. If you have a friend that you can intentionally spend time with that friend watching an episode or two of a show, and build into that relationship and invest that time and feel some sort of, and after that experience, you often feel more renewed. But when you just slap on the couch and you just turn on the show and it’s on repeat and it’s just playing, you can often get up from that experience and just be in the daze and really not enjoy the result.

And you’ve essentially done the exact same thing, but one instance you’ve invested that time with a kingdom mindset or with the idea that it’s not about what I’m doing, it’s about … time really is everything.

It’s the most valuable thing we have and when it’s wasted without our direct control of it, just like how with a budget, when you just mindlessly spend and you all of a sudden get out of the haze, you give your head a shake and you think, wow, I’ve really wasted what I thought I worked really hard for, and I just let it slip through my fingers without control.

Time is the exact same thing, except for we don’t work really hard for it. God has worked really hard for it on our behalf. And when we just let it slip through our fingers, we end up in that similar kind of haze and we wake up and shake our head and wonder how did I just let that go without intentionally controlling this valuable commodity.

And I’ve lost track of the question. It’s just something I’m very passionate about because of the value of it. And so, as I went from a young minister who felt like I had to just turn my brain off at times and I end up wasting time, I’ve now realized how valuable it is, even during downtime, to be intentional about how you are rejuvenating yourself.

So even if you can’t invest in other people with your downtime, if you’re an introvert and you need to recharge by being by yourself, be intentional about the things that you know bring you energy. Even if you’re not a great painter, maybe you need to paint, maybe you need to listen to worship music or you have to listen to whatever kind of music that that you can really reconnect with. Or you go to a park or you drink a really good cup of coffee or whatever it is. Be intentional with how you are restoring that energy instead of allowing more time to slip away and you’ll end up … even if you might end up a little bit more physically tired, your brain will be in a much better spot and you’ll feel much more renewed if you are intentional with that time, especially on the recharge side of things.

[00:09:48] Cara: I am really — what’s the word I’m looking for — really interested in this comparison that you’ve made between wasting time and investing time. I think that’s a really, clear and, I think, impactful image of, are we wasting time, investing it?

And I really like your point that sometimes it’s even the same activity, but it’s just what’s our posture of it? What’s the purpose of that time?

Alexandar: Exactly.

Cara: So, maybe it’s not even the activity itself. But what are we doing it for? Why are we doing it? But I think that’s really … yeah, I just, I’ve never really heard that quite succinct way of wasting versus investing time in that way.

And I think our use of time, like you said, even for the rejuvenation of ourself or the investment in relationships or kind of those things that are edifying and support our work with God. I think that investment can look a lot of different ways, but it’s an investment instead of that wasting. Yeah, I really like that image. Thanks for sharing that.

And so, when we start thinking about, then, what that can look like to invest in instead of waste, what is maybe one thing that you would say we can do to participate in this discipleship and investment of our time in the kingdom?

[00:11:19] Alexander: Yeah. I think the best way to start investing in the kingdom is investing in people. People are … so time is the most valuable thing you have and the most important thing that you spend that on is other people.  Other people are the most valuable thing that God wants, and we are in the kingdom.

And so, I just go ahead, extend this metaphor a little bit — if we have this commodity and it’s going to be our best asset at purchasing the most valuable thing to add to the kingdom, that just as our dollars are the most valuable thing for adding things to our physical lives, our material state, our time is that valuable thing to add the things that God wants in the kingdom, and that’s other people.

So, if you are trying to invest that time, bring other people along. If you’re going for coffee and you have the … so for me, I need a little bit of alone time for rejuvenating. But if you have that, if you want to get a cup of coffee anyways, and it’s just part of how you’re spending your day, invite somebody, bring them along. And it doesn’t have to be a scripted conversation about the gospel. You are being good news if you are embodying and extending the good news that which you have received, then you are investing that, what you have, into that other person.

And investing in other people is crucial. And I think, and the conversation will probably get there, but when we talk about church we aren’t better together because it’s easier together. We are better together because we aren’t ultimately looking for my personal success. We aren’t looking for your personal success. We’re looking for the success of the kingdom. And so that means we benefit the kingdom when we invest in one another, even if we’re investing in fellow believers. Even if we are like co-mentoring each other, or I’m not sure if that’s really a thing that I’d like.

[00:14:20] Cara: I’d like to think so. Yes.

[00:14:23] Alexander: All of my friendships feel that way, like I don’t feel like there’s a mentor-mentee kind of situation, but, rather, we learn from each other and we benefit each other. And that’s iron sharpening iron, I suppose, is the biblical analogy there. But it really is.

If you want to start, just start small and bring other people along. And you might not think that you have this wealth of wisdom to share. But again, the wisdom isn’t the most valuable thing that you have to share. It’s your heart. If you share your time with people, that will be good news for them.

[00:15:12] Cara: Yes, I really appreciate even that practical step of starting small and starting with something that you already do. Like if you already go and get a cup of coffee, then just bring somebody along. Going back to the idea of investing versus just like wasting or using time. If you’re already doing it anyways, can you do it in a way that maybe has a, like you said, that analogy, like a higher level of investment in kingdom values.

Because if we think about like kingdom culture and how we’re building and participating in that culture I think you’re absolutely right that people and relationships have such high value in a culture that reflects the kingdom. And so how do we spend our time in a way that reflects that and participates in that?

Even as you were talking, I get this image of what are, and you’ve inspired me to think about things like, what are the things that I do in my day-to-day life that are just ordinary things that have to get done that could be infused with this really intentional relational aspect, like grocery shopping. Everyone needs to go grocery shopping. So why not grocery shop together? And that transforms then into a time of just getting things that you need, which is valuable, right? Because you need to get food for yourself and your household and whatever that looks like. But it can transform it into something even a little bit more rich, where you’re doing that while you’re spending time with somebody.

And I like how you said, like, where you’re blessing them, of being good news to them, just by the sharing of your time. So, I really think that’s a helpful practical step to start with what you already do. Just bring folks along and be like that.

[00:17:01] Alexander: Yeah. And I, if I could build off your example of grocery shopping, that’s something that we don’t think of enough, especially … I’m sure most of the people listening live in a city or live close to a city. They understand what a university is. And a lot of the younger people that you want to bring into your churches, they might have moved there to go to university, and mom and dad might have taught them to do their laundry.

But how do I go grocery shopping? How do I actually find a good deal? What is a good deal? That’s an incredible resource that most parents don’t think to pass down to their kids because the taking that time to intentionally say, “Okay, this is a good price for meat,” or “this is a good price for milk,” or “this is a good price for eggs,” and “watch these flyers.”

It’s something that, it’s just such a chore for parents to do groceries that they don’t think about passing that skill set down. And so that’s an incredible opportunity to bless, encourage, and mentor, especially young people who are looking for that. And I promise, no matter what your church has as far as music, if you have people in your church that are helping the university students, the freshman students learn how to do grocery shopping, that feeling of, oh, people are investing their energy, their effort, their time, that’s going to change a young person’s life in dramatic ways.

[00:19:02] Cara: And I really appreciate that you … I think we often give that attention to things like what’s the style of music or those kinds of aspects to attract young people. But I think that you’re right. I think it’s that relational aspect and how are we building and investing in those relationships with our time that really matters most.

[00:19:13] Alexander: Yeah, absolutely. I have in our congregation, … and I’m definitely not perfect at this and I’m, like I said, I can be a little bit more introverted at times … I’m still, this is something I’m still growing in, but our young adults leader, a person that’s leading the college and career age ministry right now, I happen to be there and around and God gave me the opportunity to invest into his life and I’m convinced that the reason he’s in our church isn’t because we have the best music or the most entertaining sermon even, or the most inspiring service. But it’s because people have invested and then right away, he started investing back into serving in the kitchen and then didn’t take long by his own investment of time. And so, the investment that was right away placed in and with him, he started to return with his own investment of time.

And he has really transformed our young adults’ ministry in an incredible way. And that would’ve never happened. But yeah, if people didn’t Intentionally invest with him when he first got to our church, I’m at least 80% sure that he would’ve found another church that had at least a better service or had a little bit more money to put towards the experience of coming on a Sunday morning.

[00:21:06] Cara: Yeah. And I think that’s such a tangible example even of what do we mean when we talk about kingdom culture, right? Because what are the most important aspects of that culture? And I think sometimes when we think of culture, we think of like, how does, you know the Sunday worship experience sound, how does it look? How does it, and those are all things that are part of a church’s local expression of culture.

But when we’re talking about like how, what time has to do with kingdom culture, I think those are the lesser, right, those lesser things. And so, I think that’s a really powerful example that you’ve given, that what was a thing that kind of multiplied tenfold within your congregation was the investment of time and then this person’s reinvestment of that time because of what was invested in them.

[00:22:00] Alexander: Yeah, exactly. And I think that church culture is far more about how this; how it makes somebody feel when they are there, because you’ll never out entertain a movie theater. Whatever the latest nightclub is doing, you’ll never outdo that. But you can make people feel that they matter and that they are worth investing in. And when they receive that gift, they will reciprocate.

[00:22:38] Cara: Well, this has been really rich. I have really appreciated your insights, Alexander. As we’re getting ready to wrap up our conversation, what is maybe a final word of advice or encouragement that you would offer to our listeners who are really starting to be prayerful and discerning about the use and investment of their own time?

[00:22:58] Alexander: Yeah, I think I’ll return a little bit to that. I mentioned how parents — and I’m experiencing this myself. I know how when you’re taking care of chores, then involving somebody else makes that more difficult and slows you down. And so, whether you are talking about parenting or discipling, which I think is really very similar work, don’t be afraid to have the process slowed down if that means that you are investing your effort and time into somebody else’s life.

Because that time will hopefully give them a skillset or that will give them encouragement or it’ll give them a little bit of wisdom, or it will help them understand at the very least. At the very least, it’ll help them know that they are loved and worth somebody investing their time in. And I know that God invested everything into them by Jesus dying on the cross. I know that it’s worth at least us slowing down and taking a little bit more time, too, even if it makes our chores go a little bit longer.

[00:24:22] Cara: Amen. Amen. Thank you for leaving us with that last encouragement. And thank you for taking your time to join us today and for sharing what God has been doing in your life, what you’ve been seeing, and how you’ve seen that even growing within the life of your congregation. I really appreciate you gifting us with this time today.

And so, it is our practice with GC Podcast to end our show in prayer. And so, would you be willing to pray for our churches and our pastors, our members, ministry leaders, and GCI and all of our listeners?

[00:25:00] Alexander: Absolutely.

Heavenly Father, we praise you that you are God, Creator, Sustainer. You have given us this life. All that we have is from you. I pray for all of the members of the GC denomination and those in churches outside of the denomination, all those who are part of your church. I pray, Lord, that you would bless them and encourage them by them taking the time to listen to the podcast, by them taking time to search for you and search for a deeper relationship with you. I pray, Lord, that you would return their effort and grow in them a deep and rich relationship with you. And I pray as people continue on with their day, I pray, Lord, that you would go with them and give them your peace by the power of your Holy Spirit, strengthening them and encouraging them. In Jesus’ name, amen.

[00:26:09] Cara: Amen. Until next time y’all keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thank you for listening to the GC Podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org. And remember, healthy churches grow from hearts grounded in Christ. As you invest in yourself and your leaders, keep your eyes on Jesus, our faithful guide and sustaining hope.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to this episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches. I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today I am so blessed to have Rose Hamrick as our guest with us today. Rose is the Chief Financial Officer for Grace Communion International.

And today we’re going to continue exploring our 2025 theme of Kingdom Culture by discussing our investment of time, talent, and treasure in the kingdom. And we’re going to be today with Rose, focusing on the investment of our treasure in the kingdom. So welcome Rose, and thank you so much for joining us today.

Rose: It’s good to be with you here today, Cara.

Cara: Absolutely. Why don’t we just jump right in. What does our treasure have to do with Kingdom Culture?

[00:01:01] Rose: That’s a good question. I believe essentially everything, and when I say that, we know that treasures are not just material wealth, but it also represents spiritual values and the importance of our relationship with God.

And we know that we give our time, talent, and treasure to those things that we value and prioritize. I believe that we are called to be good stewards of our time, talent, and treasure. And we understand that all of these come from one source, our heavenly Father, right?

He’s so gracious with us, with his time that he gives us always through the presence of his Holy Spirit, never leaving us or forsaking us. It’s one of those many promises to us as his children.

He gives each of us talents for the purpose of serving him and others. He tells us this in Romans 12:6–8, and how gracious is that? He tells us we have different gifts according to the grace given to each of us. And again, in 1 Peter 4, he tells us, “Each of you should use whatever gifts you have received to serve others as faithful stewards of God’s grace.”

So not only is our heavenly Father gracious, but he encourages us to be the same. Then, speaking of our treasure, he is truly our Jehovah Jireh. He’s our provider, our all in all, and through and through. And I say, again, being the source, and he, being the giver of all, expects us to be generous as he is generous to us.

I believe that we’re a blessing to be a blessing to others and for the sake of the kingdom. It reminds me of scripture when he says over in 2 Corinthians 9, where he says, “whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly. And whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.” And again, another scripture in 2 Corinthians talks about “for if the willing is there,” meaning coming from the heart, “the gift is acceptable according to the one who has, not according to what he does not have.”

So, he doesn’t expect us to give what we don’t have. This is clearly seen in the example of the widow’s might and the widow’s offering. It was her heart and attitude that Jesus responded to. She did not have much. But she was with a willing heart, she was willing to give all that she had. In that set of scripture, in that example, the rich gave out of their abundance, but the poor widow gave out of her poverty.

And of course, we will focus on the treasure today. And for the sake of discussion and answering your question I may use treasure interchangeably with finances and resources, if that’s okay.

[00:03:44] Cara: Yes, absolutely.

[00:03:45] Rose: And just to focus on that a little bit more. We give of our treasure the same way that for those things that we value and prioritize and specific in response to our treasure. God is a generous God. He provides generally generously for us as he values and prioritizes us as his children. How we use our treasure and our resources reveals what we value most as well.

In Kingdom Culture, Jesus is who we should value the most — the one who gave his life for us, the one who in his death reconciled us with the Father, the one who’s washed away all of our sins, the one who is our Savior and Redeemer. So, what does our treasure have to do with Kingdom Culture? Everything that truly matters, I would say.

[00:04:42] Cara: Yeah. Thank you for that insight, Rose, and I really appreciate you saying that our treasure as well as our time and our talent, before our focus here today, our treasure follows our priorities.

I think that is really helpful for us to think about, especially when we’re thinking about for us as disciples, how Is our treasure being invested? How is it being discipled? How are we over time shaping what the use of our treasure looks like, our resources? So, yeah, I really appreciate that insight, that our treasure follows our priorities. And so, I’m wondering what has it looked like for you to be discipled in investing your treasures in the kingdom?

[00:05:31] Rose: I think I’d like to answer that in a two-parter. Being discipled to me has been accepting and sharing the gospel of the good news of Jesus Christ and being a Jesus follower, essentially. Essentially being not only a hearer of the word, but a doer of his word. So how do I invest in my treasure in the ways that he shares with me to do so. What an epiphany! Just think about it. To consult the one who holds all treasure, the one who gives all treasure … whether it is our finances or our resources; he is the source and it all belongs to him, and he’s so generous to share with us. He gives us the opportunity to participate in all that he is doing. We have the opportunity to share the gospel of Jesus Christ, the opportunity to support the kingdom.

Also, think about the fact — it reminds me in scripture in Matthew 6 where he tells us we should not store up for ourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy and where thieves can break in, but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. Basically, earthly treasures are temporal and can be lost or destroyed while heavenly treasures are eternal and secure. It reminds me of another scripture in Matthew 6:21 where it talks about, “for where your treasure is there, your heart will be also.”

And when you talk about those things, you talk about generosity in our giving. It talks about how each of us should give what we decide in our hearts to give, not reluctantly or in the compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. He never tells us what to give, but with what heart — an attitude to give.

And one of my favorite scriptures that I hadn’t read in a long time, to be honest, was in Acts 4:32. And it talks about the believers sharing their possessions and how God’s grace was so powerfully at work in this group of people, in his people, that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time, those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales, and put it at the apostles’ feet, and then it was distributed to anyone who had need. I think that’s just a beautiful scripture. That’s how we take care of each other.

[00:08:05] Cara: Yes. Oh, I just, as you were sharing that, that last scripture out of Acts, Rose, it just felt so beautiful to me because when you think about investing our treasure in the kingdom, that’s what a beautiful picture of the kingdom that no one had, that everyone was cared for. Just that reflection of the desire of our God for us to be whole, in his presence and with one another, or that we get to participate in that. Yeah, I love that. I love that.

[00:08:39] Rose: It’s just a true reflection of the love that Jesus has for us and how we should outwardly love one another and how our heavenly Father takes care of us and how we should take care of one another. There’s just so many things that you think about. I was talking about, first of all being discipled, and then the second part of how that, when you look at it, how investing our treasure in the kingdom, being discipled and investing in the kingdom.

[00:09:11] Cara: Yes. Rose, if I can ask you another question, as Chief Financial Officer for GCI, what is something that you’ve learned about the stewardship of our treasures, because you have been entrusted with the stewardship of many people’s investment of their treasure in the kingdom through GCI’s expression of the church and Jesus’ ministry. So, what’s maybe one of the most important or meaningful things that you’ve learned in this role as CFO.

[00:09:46] Rose: I believe the one thing I would say is how faithful our treasurers are, how faithful our members are in their giving. It’s obvious that they see their giving as an expression of worship because they so generously give and we don’t take that for granted.

We certainly invest in the ways that we believe the Holy Spirit is leading us to invest in, for kingdom purposes in sharing the things that of the gospel of the good news of Jesus Christ. And he’s blessed us in that way to be able to do that. And we do take it seriously, first giving it to him in prayer and then following the lead of the Holy Spirit as to where to best invest. And I’m grateful and thankful for our members, our treasurers who invest their time and talent in each one of their local congregations and all that all are doing towards the kingdom. So, I appreciate that.

[00:11:06] Cara: Yeah. And so, as you were saying, Rose, is just one way we can participate in how God loves us and cares for us and it’s a reflection of that.

So, I’m wondering for our listeners, what is just one practice we can start with to practice this discipleship and investment of our treasure in the kingdom, to use the treasures that God has given us to invest in his kingdom, to be like he is.

[00:11:42] Rose: I think the first thing that comes to mind, Cara, when you ask that question for me was prayer. It may seem an odd response, but prayer, thanking God for the resources he has given us. Then praying about how he would have us use those treasures, and then pray that once he reveals to us how we would use our resources, that we’re faithful in our stewardship, we’re consistent, committed, and faithful.

After all, think about it. To give us those resources, he has to put trust in us and then to give back those resources for kingdom purposes, we show who our trust is in. Our trust is in him to be able to, and he’s just really allowing us to participate in what he’s doing in the advancement of the kingdom. And I think that’s a beautiful thing, so that we’re not only hearers of the word, but doers of the word.

[00:12:33] Cara: Yes. And as you say that it really even brings me back to one of the first things that you said is that our treasure follows our priorities. And so, I think prayer even has its role in shaping our priorities and shaping our desires as we grow and are transformed into Christlike ministry.

So, as you pray, I can imagine too, like our desires to use our treasures in his kingdom, and the ways that we are drawn to do that, shift and are transformed as well. It might feel like at first one of those answers like, oh, of course, prayer. But it’s actually very powerful.

[00:13:16] Rose: It is.

[00:13:17] Cara: Our formation in so many ways starts with prayer and our relationship and our walking with God.

[00:13:24] Rose: Absolutely. The one who created us, he knows how we are, how we’re so wonderfully made, how he’s made us, and to go to him about I would say the little things, the big things and everything in between, but in, especially in investment in his kingdom, in whatever way that is, to consult with him first. He is the king of the kingdom to consult with.

How do you want us to participate? How will you have us participate? And it’s all based out of our love that we have for Jesus. And just being focused on the things that are of him, of heavenly things and not earthly things so much.

[00:14:16] Cara: What final words or thoughts or insights, pieces of advice would you have for our listeners as we wrap up our conversation today about investing our treasures in the kingdom?

[00:14:30] Rose: I would say to be good stewards of the treasure God has given you. To be able to be a blessing to others and use it for the advancement of his kingdom.

Whatever he’s given us is for the purpose of being able to share with others. He allows us to be able to take care of ourselves, to be able to share with others, and to be able to give back toward kingdom purposes, to be able to share, because as we share our treasure, we are taking the time to say, “Hey, we know who Jesus is in our lives. We know who he has been to us and what the future holds because of him. And this is just wonderful. We just can’t, they’re too wonderful for words that we can’t just hold it to ourselves. We want to be able to invest in others so that they too can come to know Jesus in the way that we do. And to know him as their Lord and Savior, know him as the one who loved us first.”

And so, in sharing our treasure, we are participating in such a special way. And I believe it is a gift from God to be able to do so. So, to know that when he gives us these gifts, these treasures, to be able to use it for his purpose, it is a blessing. It’s not only a blessing to the one who received it, which is us, but as we give and so, I think that’s what I would like to leave you with today.

[00:16:18] Cara: Yeah, so we’re so thankful for you, Rose, and all that you do to serve God, to serve GCI, to serve his kingdom through your role as CFO and helping to support us as we invest our treasures in this way — our earthly treasures. So, thank you so much, Rose, for all that you do for GCI in that way.

And thank you for just being you and for taking your time to join us today. It is our practice with GC podcasts to end the show with prayer. And so, would you be willing to pray for our churches, pastors, ministry leaders, treasurers, members all across GCI for us today?

[00:16:57] Rose: Absolutely. Absolutely. Let us pray.

Gracious, heavenly Father, we come to you today just thanking you so very much for who you are and who you’ve allowed us to be in you. We thank you that you’ve allowed us to participate in growing and building and moving towards the kingdom, Father. We thank you for all of our members. We thank you for our treasurers who are so faithful and committed to their local congregations, and they support their pastors and facilitators and their congregations in a way that’s immeasurable, Father. We thank you for their faithfulness and their commitment.

We thank you for our pastors who have been called to preach and teach, Father, and their commitment to do so in such a special way, and the gifts that you’ve given them, to be able to use those gifts to share with your people, to share the gospel of the good news of Jesus Christ, Father. We thank you for our ministry leaders as well, Father, that they lead graciously in a committed and faithful way, with integrity, Father. We just thank you that they are of great support to our pastors, to our local congregations. I want to thank you, Father, also for our Home Office staff, Father, who support our international organization here at GCI, Father.

We’re but a small part of the Body of Christ, Father. But we are so grateful and we’re so thankful to be a part, and we’re grateful that you use us in the way that you do, to be able to share more of you with others, more of Jesus with others, Father. So, we just thank you for all of those that support in the different parts of the Body, the gifts that you’ve given us, the talents that you’ve given us, the resources that you’ve given all of us, Father, to be able to support in the way that you would have us to do to support you, to support the work in Jesus, support each other, Father.

We just thank you. We are so grateful, being careful to give you all the glory, honor, and praise that you so deserve in Jesus. In the matchless name of Jesus. Father, we thank you.

[00:19:11] Cara: Amen. Thank you so much, Rose. And until next time you guys keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thank you for listening to the GCPodcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on a topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org. And remember, healthy churches grow from hearts grounded in Christ. As you invest in yourself and your leaders, keep your eyes on Jesus, our faithful guide and sustaining hope.

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we complete our mini-series on discipleship with Dr. Reverend Rasser. We are finishing up our conversation surrounding her book Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples. If you haven’t already, check out the first two episodes of this mini-series to get a sense of the foundation that we’ve laid so far.

Thank you so much for joining us once again today.

Eun: Oh my gosh. Such a pleasure, Cara.

Cara: Well, we have already explored a lot. We left off the last episode with, you gave some kind of words of encouragement and advisement and spoke about for pastors the process of leading change and what that looks like as we do this good and challenging work of building a discipleship pathway.

In your book, you discuss different approaches to change and suggest transformational change, as a way to approach change as we build out discipleship pathways in our local church context. And so, I’m wondering what are some ways that as local leadership we can facilitate an assessment of behaviors, structures, and assumptions, which is one of the structures of change theory that you put forth in those last few chapters of your book.

[00:02:31] Eun: Yeah. This is probably the part where if I haven’t really made the case that discipleship needs to be centered then this is like the snooze-fest part of the book. Because if you’re not seeing this as a leader for your own self, that discipleship needs to be centered, then you know what, you can close that book right from there. Because that, that part of the book around change dynamics and change theory is really trying to be, if you find yourself as a leader that you have a clear look, landscape of your church and you know that, okay. I desire for discipleship to be centered, but I humbly and honestly can say that discipleship is at the periphery of my church community — if you’re at that point, then the next question will be, then therefore, how can I begin to center discipleship within my local context? If you’re there, then all of these conversations around fleshing out assumptions and structures and behavior. This is when it’s helpful.

And I mention that because I want you to move into that part, and if there’s like any shred of pride still left in you, this is when it gets shredded out. It’s a hard read and this is the part where a lot of leaders tell me, “Eun, that’s a hard, hard read,” because it takes so much humility and this is the part where when I work with leaders, this is the part that I break down and cry, because I just love the people who are trying do this.

It takes a humble leader and to me, you’re already somebody that I want your church to imitate as you imitate Christ. Because humility, that big piece, is such a big, important part of Christlikeness —there’s already a starting point. I just commend all the leaders who get to this point, who have and recognize a desire to center discipleship, who can honestly say that it’s not happening in their local context. And then therefore, how can they do this? Because it begins, how can you hold that tension of really uprooting what I assume about my local community or my people? What do I assume, what do I assume about my own leadership?

The last time we talked about testing and assessing and not being afraid of using those words and really pressing into those practices around our organizations or communities. But it is really taking a look honestly at what structures and systems and constructs are there that help to support our assumptions.

And then the best way is looking at — we really never know if it’s something which is happening or working, or discipleship actually is being centered if we can’t look at the behavior of those people, of the disciples, of the Christians within our local churches. Are they actually beginning to behave more like Christ? And you set that against those clear maturity markers of being a disciple we talked about before. So, this whole process, of looking at it, is a humble work. Sometimes it’s a humbling work. But I think it’s, again, really good work, and it really is giving us concrete next steps to discovering what are those clear next steps that we need to work on or we need to tend to, so that discipleship will be more centered in our midst.

[00:06:18] Cara: Yes. And that’s really helpful, that at this point, we need to be convinced of the work to be done if we’re going to start it because it won’t be easy. Once we are convinced of the importance of doing the work of centering discipleship, then we can move through these pieces. And I again, really appreciate that lack of fear of that idea of assessing and looking at where are these fruits, what do the lives of disciples in our local church look like, the lives of disciples that exhibit these markers that we’ve identified that are clear, that aren’t wishy-washy, that we can’t really put flesh on. So that’s …

[00:07:21] Eun: Can I tell a story to hammer this in a little bit?

Cara: Please.

Eun: Okay. It’s okay. And if I start like, breaking down crying, I apologize. All the listeners having to hear me talk for this long for these many sessions and having to hear me cry …

Cara: You’re allowed.

Eun: So, one of our, one of our disciples in our first year … you know we’re in our seventh year now and we’ve multiplied those centered and bounded set contracts from 1 to 12, seven years later. So, one of those community leaders, her name is Kelsey — she’s like, she’s the quintessential Wisconsin girl who lives in Hawaii — she just does not fit in.

She’s blonde hair, blue eyed. She looks like she’s 12. She’s in her thirties and bubbly personality. Wonderful. And she always thought that her biggest contribution to being a part of a church is that she’s going to join the greeter ministry. Every single church that Kelsey has attended, she just went up and said, “Hi, my name’s Kelsey. I want to join the greeter ministry,” because she thought that is the best she could do, that the biggest contribution as a Jesus follower for the church. And she’s really good at it. She’s so welcoming, super hospitable. But the other things about Kelsey is that she’s a hospice care nurse, so you already know that God made her to love the seniors in our midst.

The other thing about Kelsey is that her neighborhood in Kaka Ako, her bike path to work, she goes past three different low-income senior living facilities on her way to work. If you ever go on a bike path, a cycling episode with Kelsey down that road, she’s like a celebrity. All of these aunties and uncles, all these seniors, they come out and they know her by name. She knows everybody else by name, because God has made her to really love seniors. And when we were going through a discipleship pathway, like one of the concrete things for us in our discipleship core essentials that we use in our pathway is having a heart for the one. Having a heart for the one really means, do we love the same kinds of people that God has a heart for? And God has a heart for, all over scripture, for those who are far from him and far from community, those two things are actually important. And probably one in the same to God, right — being far from God and far from community. So, we intentionally disciple and equip every single one of our disciples so that they are equipped in the ways to love those who are far from God and far from society. For these low-income seniors, they are the, probably the most, one of the most marginalized people in our midst.

Some of these folks when we’re working with them, they were, “How do you even know that we exist? We’re just like out in the shadows. We don’t have any monetary contribution to society. We’re just useless.” This is from their own words. And things like that just broke Kelsey’s heart.

So, in the beginning, she was a part of a church and she was probably a small group leader, a member of bubbly personality. She makes really good coffee too. And she was probably had one of the fastest growing small groups. She had about 30 people in her small group. Everybody loves Kelsey. They would do a Bible study, chat, rub shoulders together. It just became this wonderful social gathering.

But Kelsey just had — because I was discipling her — Kelsey just had this burning urgency in her heart that she knew God was putting there. And she knew that, what if there was a vision for these low-income senior facilities to also be a part of community, to also be discipled, because she had a heart that every single one of these seniors, we call them kupuna or our elders in Hawaiian. What if all the kupuna in this neighborhood really, really knew that they were seen and loved by Jesus?

What would happen then? That was a big question in her heart. But she was so afraid to tell her small group, this growing small group, because she was afraid. The biggest fear of people with bubbly personalities and who can do greeting ministry right, is that they’re going be rejected. She bore this for about three years.

Wow. We talked about it so much within our discipleship. And finally, one day, she mounted up the courage to invite her small group, and she wants to begin to change this so that it’ll become a missional community instead. And their whole mission will be to serve their kupuna neighbors.

When Kelsey made that invitation for this group, only five people said yes. About 25 people left. Complete rejection. It was hard. They didn’t understand why. “Why do you want to break up this group? We have a good thing going. Why are you …? Why? This is where I feel fed. This is where I feel like I am a Christian. Why are you ruining this?”

It was a really, really hard thing. Kelsey’s heart was broken because of this. But she just started with those five. It felt really humble and humbling to do it, but she started with those five. And with one, the smallest of those low-income senior facilities — 73 residents — she just started doing bingo and pizza night. What senior citizen doesn’t love to have bingo and pizza night? I cannot tell you of a one person?

And this became a robust community. There’s probably like 25 to 30 seniors coming to this — nearly a third of the entire neighborhood is coming at this point. Then, lo and behold, the pandemic hits, and lo and behold, Kelsey cries again. But this time her heart isn’t broken because we can’t stream a service for these seniors. Her heart is broken because she hears stories about these kupuna – think about March, April of 2020. They’re going and taking the public bus to go to the local food bank to pick up two cans of food to put in their pockets because that’s all they can carry, take the bus again. And they’re doing this on a regular basis. They go in and close their doors because they’re so scared. That’s what broke Kelsey’s heart and that’s what broke her discipleship for those fine folks’ heart.

So, during the pandemic, and this grew throughout for the three years for the pandemic here in Hawaii, we were able to provide one month worth of groceries every single month for every single resident, not just in that one low-income senior living facility, but in all three on that bike path that Kelsey went through years ago. And that amounts of 500 people.

We did that for three years. And it didn’t stop there. Seven years later now we have discipleship cores in every single one of those living facilities. They’re not the disciples in those — we just call them neighborhoods because they are. They’re not volunteers. They’re not young volunteers. They’re the seniors. They’re the kupuna. They’re made up of people of the age of 65 and older.

For one of them, most of them are octogenarians. And so, our urgency in discipleship has changed. We know that we only have five years with them — five years where these people are being discipled for their meaningful Christlike character, theology, wisdom, and missional living.

Yes, octogenarians can live as sent people also because God assumes that of them. You know what’s happened in these neighborhoods now? Where once it felt like prison, because everybody would have their doors closed, everyone’s suspicious of one another, there’s no resources, now it’s like a college dorm when you go visit all these places. Every single door is open. And when one person gets a box of goods, they share it amongst themselves. Auntie down the hall, she needs more toilet paper than I do, so I give them that. Or the hottest commodity is the nori packets, right, or the rice, right? Everyone’s sharing now.

This all happened because Kelsey felt like her discipleship and imitating Jesus meant that she’s going to face rejection. Overturn her own assumptions and really, really bank on, that if she centers discipleship, then actually the behavior of her own people would change to also include her kupuna neighbors and that they can also be discipled and change their neighborhoods. Centering discipleship does this.

[00:16:33] Cara: Thank you for sharing that. That’s a beautiful story and I just don’t have anything more to say than that. That’s just beautiful. I understand why you said that you might cry. The power of that willingness to challenge those assumptions and facilitate those and embrace those changes.

Change is scary. But look what happens. I’m wondering then now for those in our congregations that are established and that are seeking to embrace and live their own stories like that, what kind of recommendations or encouragement or advice would you give to them as they surrender and transform their assumptions and structures and then resulting behaviors to centralize discipleship?

[00:17:34] Eun: That’s such a good question. My biggest advice after all of those things, right after the humble work of reassessing, all those kinds of stuff, when you get to a point for, especially for established churches and heritage churches, my biggest recommendation is don’t unleash this new program of new pathways of discipleship. I’d say just start small.

Find the Kelseys in your midst. Guess who’s actually going to be the disciple makers? It’s going to be them? Guess who are — you need more examples of mature disciples apart from just you? And so, find the Kelseys within your midst and clarify discipleship with them.

I think there are three different identifying markers for who inherited or established church leaders should probably do this experimental first of first kind of discipleship core within their already established churches. It’s the kinds of folks who have decision-making power in your church. It’s probably the elders or leadership team folks. Not every single person has to do it, but somebody, some folks who are able to make decisions, they’re already empowered to do that.

Folks who have relational authority in the church — you know who I’m talking about. It’s social influencers within your church context. Whenever they have a party, people come and have a good time. But they are also the people most trusted to feel loved by people. So, folks who have relational authority.

And then the last group of people are those who have what I call scriptural authority. It’s the folks who you know they’re the go-to-people, where they’re the folks who have been the holy people, the people who are the elders of elders?

I would make a group of folks who have those kinds of authority within the reality of your church today if you really want to do this well.

That fourth category are the folks who are already being sent out. They’re probably not the folks who are the most involved in church. They’re probably the most involved in your community or neighborhood. If you really want a challenge, include and invite those people as your first of first. As you work out your discipleship pathway, what it could look like in your localized setting, those kinds of things, include these people from the get go, so that as you begin to multiply different discipleship cores, these bounded sets within your local church, these folks also have great input into what those discipleship pathways are going to look like. And then you will have already made these disciple makers who are going to be leading these discipleship cores in the future.

[00:20:24] Cara: I really like that advice, too, in our setting especially. One of the things and tools that we work with is The Five Voices. And in terms of change management, one of the things that a lot of our listeners will know is that in change management, wanting to do one of the recommendations is to do like test runs or trial runs or start small, as you’re saying, because that helps to build the bridge for those who maybe need to see tangibly some examples of this preferred vision or future that we’re moving towards. And so, to do that and start small with this first discipleship core, that is also strategic, with who is invited into that, versus saying okay, now we’re like topsy-turvying the whole structure of this church that has existed for the last 50 years.

Eun: Yes.

Cara: It is kind, I think, to do it in that way.

[00:21:49] Eun: I do work also in the UK for centering discipleship with the Church of England, Church of Scotland. And these are churches that have been around for over a thousand years. Yes, it is extremely kind not to flip everything around for the whole parish neighborhood. It’s unkind if we were to do that. So, how do you begin to lovingly, compassionately, but also strategically think through how to start small?

[00:22:05] Cara: No, that I think is a great word of advice to end our series on, listeners. I hope, and I pray that through this mini-series, through your engagement with the book and hopefully a book club/book study cohort that you are able to find yourself at a place where you are considering and planning and doing the work to start small in centering discipleship in your local church context. Again, if you haven’t yet had an opportunity to read the book. There will be a link in the show notes for today’s episode. So, go ahead and check that out there.

And, keep an eye out for Eun’s upcoming release this fall of 2025: You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone: The Power of Sharing Leadership. Pre-orders are available now, if you want to be a go-getter and get ahead of the curve there. I am so thankful for your time, for your insights, for your labors of love that you have put into this book and into your consultations for churches all over the world so that we might be those that center discipleship and not just a discipleship that we don’t understand or can’t touch and feel and smell, but one that is, clarified one, one that is real livable in community.

So, thank you so much for joining us on the GC podcast. It is our practice to end our episodes in a word of prayer. And so, could I ask you to pray for our listeners and leaders, members, and neighborhoods across GCI?

[00:24:11] Eun: I would love to. And thank you so much for having me.

Jesus. I just thank you, thank you, thank you. I thank you that you are with and close and near to every person who is listening here, to every single person who’s engaged in these mini-series for every minister and lay leader and congregant and disciple of Jesus all around the world through this ministry. I just pray that whatever may burning in folks as they listened, whatever may feel like a challenge or a comfort, whatever may be some confusion, I pray that you will be tending to them. I love that you know that discipleship is important, that this is what you centered your entire ministry on.

I love that you banked on the flourishing of your kingdom to come for your disciples, not through programs or certain kinds of leaders, but you just asked and called just regular folk. And we’re all regular folk who are transformed into these beautiful, wise, full of character, full of your wisdom, full of your sentness, full of your ways of thinking and loving and decision-making because we become more and more like you, Jesus. Beautiful. Full in every way.

So, I just pray that as we, as leaders have courage to center discipleship in all of our churches and communities, that we’ll do it with such love and care that you have shown to us. In your good name, we pray, amen.

[00:26:04] Cara: Amen. Until next time y’all keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thanks for listening to the GC podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on the topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org.

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we continue our miniseries on discipleship with our guest, Dr. Rev. Strawser, and we will be continuing our conversation on her book, Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples.

Welcome back, and so good to have you here today.

[00:01:15] Eun: Thanks so much, Cara. You’re probably my favorite, favorite podcast interviewer by far.

[00:01:22] Cara: That’s speaking words of life to me. Oh goodness. Thank you.

For the first episode in our miniseries, you shared a lot of really helpful and meaningful insights to us about the importance of discipleship and centering discipleship. As you move further into your book, you start talking about the development of a discipleship pathway.

And so, I’m wondering, for our listeners, how does a discipleship pathway help us to make discipleship central in the lives of our church communities compared to maybe … there’s a thousand different ways to get there. But what about a specific discipleship pathway helps us to make discipleship central?

[00:02:16] Eun: Yeah, I think that it probably in writing Centering Discipleship, the pathway piece was just to help and contribute to the Big C Church now. One further step to help all of us clarify discipleship. If the biggest need today in the church is there’s such a deficiency and lack of understanding, a clear thought, a clear contribution of why discipleship is at the periphery and not center to our churches and communities and what’s the next thing that could help all of us move the needle so that discipleship is more centered in our churches. If that’s the case, then I think a pathway, which is very different from a program, is the best chance at this next sort of step for us to gain that clarity.

Pathways are different from programs because it really does allow for, it’s more like a framework than it is a prescribed structure. Frameworks helps so that there’s a lot of flexibility around it. The best example of a programmatic or more structured thing is what Alcoholics Anonymous use, where every single AA groups or substance abuse groups use the same structure, the same order, the same program that lists there. And it works. It works for AA groups all around the world.

But for discipleship to be centered within our local churches, it really is that local piece. That’s the thing that highlights why discipleship pathways should be pathways or frameworks with a lot of flexibility because it’s different from a program. Not every single thing that is going to work for one community, let’s say in Western Ghana is going to work the same and have the same expectations of fruitfulness, let’s say in Seoul, South Korea.

I’ve worked with people in both of those settings. Discipleship pathways look very, very different. It’s not just because of there’s a language difference in things, but there’s also a cultural difference and hyper-localized cultural differences that we really should have a say in what our discipleship pathways should look like.

So, a pathway and not a program is really important first. It allows for that flexibility. It also allows it so that we already have an assumption —if we all have an assumption — that every single person who encounters Jesus will not only be a follower of Jesus, will be a disciple of Jesus, but they will also be a disciple maker also along with Jesus — if that’s happening, right? We’re making disciples and making disciple makers. If that’s a given assumption that we as leaders should all have, because the Great Commission was not given to just leaders, pastors, holier people, or people who know how to read the Bible really well or pray really effectively. No! The Great Commission was given to every single imitator of Christ, right?

If that’s a going assumption in our starting point, then a framework or a pathway allows it so that every single type, learning type, personality, a developmental level, even divergent, neurodivergent folks, right, and people with different disabilities and abilities — we’re saying that everybody should have a chance at both being discipled and being disciple makers.

So, a pathway allows for that kind of flexibility. … I think the hard work, but the good work for the leader and the leaders in a faith community to really put the work into that, where it’s local, it’s flexible, it’s accessible to everybody within their community, and with an expectation that folks can use this framework and this pathway, and they can go and make disciples also.

[00:06:16] Cara: Yes. And I really appreciate that piece, that it’s something that can be used so that we are making disciples who make disciples, right? There’s something replicable about this localized, contextualized discipleship pathway that continues to multiply. It doesn’t just end with itself, right?

Yeah, I really appreciate that. And you mentioned that local aspect and kind of that contextualization, which in Grace Communion International, we have local congregations all over the world in many different contexts like you mentioned. And so, contextualization of ministry practices is something that we really have to contend with a lot. What does a good ministry practice look like in very different contexts around the world? And you tackle this in your book as well about kind of universal models of discipleship, local models of discipleship, and a little bit of what does it look like to hold the two together?

And so, what advice would you give to a church leadership that is learning to integrate those universal and those local elements of discipleship?

[00:07:41] Eun: Yeah, no, that’s a great question, Kara. I think this is the part again … doing, constructing a discipleship pathway is hard work, but good work for the leader because you’re, you are trying to hold that tension together.

Without that tension, then this is again why a lot of assimilated practices happen, or an assumption that produces colonization happens within Christianity because we hold, we don’t know how to hold that tension of both. Universally, can we identify a Jesus follower all across the world? Yes. Yes, we can. But can we not constrain them to cultural practices, but really be respectful and kind and compassionate and allow the beautiful cultures where every different local culture looks different, right? How do we hold those two things in tandem?

I think this is why again a pathway is so helpful, because those maturity markers that we talked about last time, they’re probably the things that are telling us that they, that it, we can easily identify a mature disciple of Christ anywhere in the world because they all share the same kind of maturity markers, right?

The markers aren’t trying to constrain us or confine us structurally. The markers are trying to tell us, oh, what’s the portrait of a disciple of Christ that we are trying to move towards? So, for me and these four are the ones that I boiled it down to. There’s … you could read the book and there’s a lot of scriptural backing for it.

I also love these four because you can’t tease apart one thing or another. You can’t just choose to be mature in one thing and say, that’s what makes you a mature disciple of Jesus. You have to have an interaction with all four of these maturity markers.

So, the maturity markers are that every disciple, all across the world, that they all share these four things in common. They have a Christlike character, Christlike theology, Christlike wisdom, and Christlike missional living or sent-ness. I love that they are, all four, are distinct. These are things that disciples should be equipped in.

All four of these things, increase both a spiritual competence and a social competence as followers of Jesus. But again, all four things can’t be teased apart. You can’t just have a growing character of Jesus and say you’re a loving person but not be sent out to your neighbor. You know what I mean?

Cara: Yeah.

Eun: You can’t be a person who has Christlike theology, knows a lot of things about God, but also don’t know how to navigate the complexities of culture in the world around us and not be a wise person. You need all four things, and I think these are the four things that identify a mature disciple of Jesus.

So, that’s the part where you can hold that universal piece around discipleship — the localized part, the contextualized part that’s so needed so that we contend against empire, contend against a certain power dynamic, or what the cultural setting is within our local space. The way to contend against it is actually thinking about what are our discipleship core, essentials.

What are the essential pieces in our local place that we have to address, that we have to actively, intentionally have equipping for our people in so that we know clearly people are going to actually grow to be mature disciples, have Christlike character, Christlike theology with them in sent-ness.

So, the discipleship core essentials are probably different across all different kinds of churches. Usually, in churches when I’m working with them, you can … your starting point is probably, what are your core values, what’s in your vision statement or your mission statement — those kinds of things.

Like the easiest thing is love God, love others, right? Those are very, very, very simplified discipleship core essentials. And you’re saying we want every single disciple in our local context to be equipped in loving God and loving others. Let’s say, just using it.

FYI, Cara, that’s my least favorite discipleship essentials, because I think that it’s too simplified and people don’t know how to explain it, but we’ll just work with that for now. But I know that these discipleship core essentials are actually the thing to, for my people to be equipped in, by not thinking I have great content and it’s working.

I have to see it based on, are there mature disciples in our midst? Are there people who are growing and maturing in these maturity markers of Christlike character, theology, wisdom, and missional living? Are people less anxious? Do people do conflict resolution better? Are people knowing the names of their neighbors, and inviting them with them to do life together?

Are people actually growing in patience and it’s actually being challenged? Do people have more hospitality just like Jesus? Do people, in knowing and growing and knowing about God more, begin to have their loves and their decision-making shaped by knowing and knowing God more, right?

If these things aren’t happening in our midst, then I don’t know if discipleship is really intentionally being equipped in our people.

[00:13:28] Cara: Yes. And I really appreciate a couple of things that you’ve said. One that, that those four elements of the Christlike character, theology, wisdom, missional living — they can’t be isolated from one another. There’s kind of this holisticness to growth in maturity as a disciple, and that we’re looking for the fruits and the markers of that. Assess feels like a little too rigid, but kind of like assess, right? The essentials that we’ve identified and then the tools that we’re using to exercise and develop those essentials because it’s … and you use an analogy like this or an image like this in your book of it … does it matter what process you’re going through if the fruit that you’re looking for, isn’t there, in terms of, if you’re watering a tree or a plant, right? You could do all the quote unquote right things, but if it doesn’t bear the fruit that you’re looking for, like obviously something needs to change. Or we could just stay stubborn, right?

[00:14:54] Eun: Absolutely, Cara. I wish so much that I was a green thumb, but I do not. My entire family makes fun of me, because every potted plant or propagated plant … I’m so delighted because I’m like, this is the chance that I have! I can grow something! That’s what I’m say, but I just can’t, because I do the process wrong. For whatever reason, I over water certain plants. I don’t know. I don’t know anything about it, right? But I do know that my process is not working. My pathway is not working. The things that, then, are essential are not working because these plants keep withering and dying.

Cara: Yes.

Eun: And I think it’s okay for us as Christians to be able to say words like assessment, testing. We should test, it’s in the Bible, right? Even God says, “Test me. I’m okay. I can withstand that, right? I love you. This is the kind of relationship we have. Please test me. If you’re not sure. Test me.” So, if that’s a culture that’s already scripturally-based, why shouldn’t we?

We shouldn’t be afraid or embarrassed or ashamed to test ourselves. I want this thing to work. It’s really important to me that discipleship is central to the life of my church, because why? Because King Jesus being worshiped, meaning that every single follower of Jesus in my local context want to make decisions to reorient everything and every part of their life: decision-making, how they love, who they invite, who they think are insiders, outsiders, how they use their money, how they use their time, all that kind of stuff. That’s what worship means, right? So, discipleship is important because discipleship is ultimately saying that will Jesus followers actually put King Jesus at the center of their lives, at the center of their entire community?

I want that tested. That’s really important to me. So, why shouldn’t we have some assessments to say, is that really happening? Is King Jesus concretely, without a shadow of a doubt being worshiped with their whole lives, with the totality of their whole lives, meaning their characters are being transformed, their theology is being transformed, their wisdom is being sharpened, their missional living is being actually lived out.

If those four things aren’t happening, I want it tested within my local community because I want somebody to tell me concretely, if Jesus, King Jesus is being centered within my local context.

[00:17:25] Cara: Yes. No, that’s a good word, to not shy away from that testing, because are we taking seriously the thing that we’re looking for?

But I do, I really love that analogy with the plants, because I’m the same, I’ve been learning for years and it’s just, I use all the different processes and sometimes the same processes on different plants, and one plant will end up dead and the other thrives, and it’s just like … I think that’s so relevant to, are we committed to the processes, the things that we’re doing, the tools and things like that? Is that where our commitment lays, or like you said, is our commitment to Jesus and growing in his likeness.

And I think if that’s where commitment lies, then the other things can be changed in order to bear the fruit of the thing that we’re actually committed to. I’m actually committed to this plant being alive, so I can move it to a different window so that it doesn’t die. So, I’m wondering just as we’re talking about, like you said, it’s a hard and really important work to put together a discipleship pathway. What would your kind of word of encouragement be to a church leadership as they take their first step in doing this good work?

[00:18:57] Eun: Yeah, I think two things for the pastors who are leading in an inherited church or an established church — my biggest advice is that your expectation for timing is not going to be the same as a church plant. So, when I do work with inherited church churches and church leaders, I just tell them probably it’s going take about three years — three years to begin to center discipleship more. And you can plan those things out, right?

You have so much more say about structures and restructuring and taking an inventory of where there is an environment where this would work, all those kinds of stuff. Those are really good ground-tooling work. Because number two is your job. Your primary job in your leadership role is actually to not just preach or not just fill seats in services, right? It’s really to love and lead these people that God has given you to lead and love, right? So, if that is a starting point, have a clear, realistic expectation of how long it takes. Probably about three years to do this good work intentionally.

But the second thing really is, you begin with the people that God has given you. Sometimes leaders get really frustrated. A senior pastor would like read something like Centering Discipleship, feel really gung-ho about it, and then start something, and nothing happens, right? But in order for us to lead and love our people that God has already given us, I would already assume that God also thinks and believes and loves these people, that all of these people right now can also be discipled, right?

That is God’s assumption of them also. Therefore, it’s our assumption of our people, too. And to consider what is the thing that’s holding them back. Probably it’s because change is just hard for people in general. So, the way to love, and that’s included within those first three years, is to really, really address and help people and shepherd people through … There are two reasons why people are so hesitant to change: it’s because they feel like they’re losing things, so they experience loss, or they feel like they’re going to get lost in the thick of it. What tender things to have to bear with people?

And a preface, and a dress, a name for people, right? It’s a really loving thing to do and leading people well. I love Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and I always nickname him Dietrich Bonfire because he gives a fiery word, right, to leaders? And he writes a lot about a care for our people. And part of the thing is going to be, if we be as leaders, begin to complain about our people, then I don’t know if we should be leading. And he also further says, if we begin to complain about our people to God, then, I for sure don’t know if we should be leading.

So, the first place is you start with the people God has given you to lead and love. It’s your job to do that as leaders. And then second, have a really clear, realistic expectation of how long this takes in inherited especially established inherited churches — about three years.

[00:22:25] Cara: I really appreciate what you’ve had to share with us in this episode. Again, for our listeners, I encourage you to read this book, Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples. There’ll be a link in the show notes. Take a look at the GCI Equipper as well for information about a book club so that you can go through this material with a cohort of your peers to learn a little bit more and wrestle through what it would look like to live this out.

And, if you’re not so much of a reader, go ahead and check out the audio book. She narrates herself and it is a wonderful listen. Any way you’ve got to do it, I encourage you to get ahold of this material and go through it with your team, with your peers, and really begin to wrestle with this work of building a discipleship pathway.

Until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thanks for listening to the GC podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on the topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us at info@gci.org.

Welcome to the GC Podcast. This year, we’re centering on Kingdom Culture and exploring how it transforms ministry and equips leaders for kingdom living. Through conversations with Grace Communion Seminary professors and a few other guests, we’ll explore how their teachings equip ministry leaders to embody kingdom values.

This is the GC Podcast, where we help you grow into the healthiest ministry leader you can be. Sharing practical insights and best practices from the context of Grace Communion International Churches. Here’s your host, Cara Garrity.

Cara: Hello friends, and welcome to today’s episode of GC Podcast. This podcast is devoted to exploring best ministry practices in the context of Grace Communion International churches.

I’m your host, Cara Garrity, and today we dive back into our 2025 theme of kingdom culture through exploring discipleship. In our efforts to explore discipleship, I am so honored to have Dr. Reverend Strawser join us to discuss her book, Centering Discipleship, A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples.

Eun Strawser is the co-vocational lead pastor of Ma Ke Ala o, non-denominational missional communities multiplying in Honolulu, and was a community physician at Ke Ola Pono. She is the founder of IWA Collaborative, a consulting and content developing firm to empower kingdom grounded leaders to navigate, change, grow adaptive capacity, and foster local flourishing.

Prior to transitioning to Hawaii, she served as adjunct professor of medicine at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine and of African Studies at her alma mater, the University of Pennsylvania, where she and her husband served with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, and after finishing her Fulbright Scholarship at the University of Dar es Salaam.

She is the author of the book that we’re going to explore today, as well as her upcoming book, You Were Never Meant to Lead Alone, with pre-orders available now. The book will be released this fall of 2025.

Thank you so much for joining us today. I am so happy to have you as our guest.

Eun: Cara. You are the best hype person. I’d like to just carry you around with me everywhere I go. You did the best intro. You did the best intro.

[00:02:41] Cara: I would love that. I would love to be your hype woman. Before we jump in and explore some follow up questions that expound on your book, I’m wondering what prompted you to write this book.

[00:03:00] Eun: Yeah, I think that even as you folks at Grace Communion are even thinking about this theme for this whole year of 2025, I think in it, and how you’re describing it, in it already, I think, defines why something like Centered Discipleship needs to be put on the map, because you folks are trying to think: What does kingdom culture look like as we explore discipleship?

I think that word exploring, exploration, means that we’re not certain about things. It’s not discovered yet. It’s not clear or concrete yet, and I just think that it’s such a deficiency in the church today that discipleship is a word that is thrown around. We use it. It’s over-generalized. There’s a multitude of definitions under it.

And because there isn’t a certainty or a clarity for Christians, and Christian leaders in particular, I think that there is such a deficit of discipleship in the church today.

[00:03:57] Cara: I am so glad that you did choose to put your efforts into writing this book. I think that it is so relevant, so helpful. And I am really looking forward to the additional insights that you have to offer to our listeners today.

So, one of the first questions that I have for you is, in the book you do talk about centering discipleship, of course. And so, I’m wondering, can you describe for us the difference between central and peripheral discipleship that you talk about at the start of your book?

[00:04:32] Eun: Yeah, sure. This is such a primer because I want to preface it by saying, okay, I do really, really, really believe in the priesthood of all believers. I sincerely believe that. But I think that in how we people, human beings, do life, we have to consider what is the leaders’ or the leadership role in how structures work, systems work, organizations, what we focus on, what we emphasize, how invitation moves, what visions are there in the life of a church or a faith community.

I think because there isn’t a clarity around discipleship in general, we can probably have a better starting point that there isn’t a clarity or a stronger vision for discipleship to be central to our ministry, central to our churches or our faith communities. And that’s why it’s kept at the periphery.

If you think about what are probably the three things that are on the leaders’ plates to do that nobody else can really do this for the leader. It’s not the thing that the leader can easily delegate out. It’s three things. It’s what the leader emphasizes. Which is usually where all resources, time, finances, even leadership pipelines, go towards whatever it is a leader or a leadership set emphasizes.

The second is invitation. No matter how much people will say that this is not true. It is true. Whatever the leader does the invitation for something, more often than not, people will follow and come. Right? And so, there’s [inaudible] an invitation. And then, the last thing, on vision. It’s a leader’s job to cast a vision and be a broken record about the vision for the community, for the church.

Whenever I do a lot of work around centering discipleship with church plants, inherited churches, Christian organizations, things like that, and I can walk in and ask questions around those three things. And I can tell you immediately if a discipleship is at the periphery of the organization or community or if it’s in the center because of those three things.

[00:06:52] Cara: What are some of those questions that you ask?

[00:06:55] Eun: Yeah. For instance, around the invitation, it’s really questions around: what do you really invite your people to? What do your people actually invite people to? If the bulk of the invitation is — if your people feel like they can give themselves a pat on the back, a sigh of relief because they finally got to invite their friend or neighbor or coworker or family member to attend your Sunday morning worship service. And they’re just like clapping, brushing off their hands and being like, okay, check, now I’m a good Christian, because I made that invitation.

If that is the thing that’s most rewarded, if that’s the invitation that’s most rewarded, probably it’s because we’re assuming that any sort of semblance of discipleship, (and that clarity piece is so important, right?) we’re probably saying that the best chance that people get at understanding what it is to imitate Jesus clearly is going to happen at a worship service. Versus, if discipleship is centered, then I know that everybody would already understand that discipleship is best lived out in practice. So, practicing discipleship, living like Jesus, actually doesn’t happen in a once-a-week Sunday morning worship service, right?

It happens out in the community, in real life, in neighborhoods, in households, at workplaces, in schools, right? That’s where it’s happening. So, wherever the invitation is strongest, I know that discipleship is either center or peripheral.

[00:08:38] Cara: Yeah, that’s a great example. Thank you for sharing that with us.

[00:08:42] Eun: Yeah. Another, I think, important thing is that vision question. I think that leaders assume that their vision is really clear, but I think that we can test it out by asking our people what is the vision of our community or our church? And if your people can’t recite it clearly, then we’re probably not being as clear as we assume that we are.

I think the second thing around vision is my favorite question is asking the leader, okay. In five years from now what do you hope or imagine your church or your faith community to be like, to look like, to smell like, to sound like, to act like — all those kinds of questions, right?

And most of the time, when leaders depict in five years … and I love that five-year mark. It’s so short enough that there’s realistic practical pieces that we could set in place now. But it’s not, and it’s not far enough that it’s some dream, like a thing that, that we can dream too big around. So, in five years, what will your … what do you hope your church to be like?

If leaders are answering that essentially that the church itself will experience multiplication or growth? If that’s the only conversation around it, and if they’re not including the flourishing of their community that the church resides in, or the neighborhood the church resides in, then I know that again, discipleship is at the periphery and not center.

[00:10:11] Cara: Thank you. Those are, I think, helpful places for us to even start reflecting in our own context and kind of start making those assessments about where are we at in our kind of expressions and practices of discipleship in our local churches.

And I’m wondering … a lot of times when we think about discipleship, we can feel like it is something that maybe is meant to be organic or just, maybe not quite “go with the flow” but maybe something that …

Eun: … like Spirit-led …

Cara: Yes. And maybe some of our listeners have maybe a reaction, a visceral reaction to this idea of identifying markers of discipleship. And so, I’m wondering what difference have you seen it make when we do identify markers of discipleship?

[00:11:12] Eun: Yeah, it’s like a really good exercise to run through. The best example I can give for this through story is my family and I, we moved, I was born in South Korea. My family moved to West Philly. I did all my upbringing, I fell in love, got married, had my three babies — all in Philly —and then we moved to Hawaii. Philly was a lot of training grounds for my own ministry, how I see Jesus, how I have love for people, all those kinds of things.

And I was leading in a community, a church in West Philly, and our neighbors were a pretty strong Muslim population. We were really good neighbors to one another and we did a community dinner, hosted it so that we could learn a little bit more about each other’s faith. And there were a hundred people, 50 Christians, 50 Muslim brothers and sisters, and we had a meal together.

It was wonderful. And then we went around and our Muslim neighbors were asking like, “What does it mean to be a Christian?” And so, we’re going through it, different people at the table are answering, “Well, to be a Christian means this and this…”. And at the end of the night, it was so confusing to our Muslim neighbors, because for if there were 50 Christians in the room, there are 50 different answers to what it means to be a disciple of Jesus.

Whereas when there are 50 Muslim neighbors in the room, all 50 Muslim brothers and sisters could answer the five pillars of Islam, very clearly… that that’s what their faith is anchored around. This is what it means to be, to believe in Allah, all those kinds of things. So, already it’s so confusing to other people, let alone to ourselves about what does it actually mean to be a Jesus follower.

If we don’t have clear maturity markers of what it means to be a disciple of Jesus, then I think two kinds of things happen. One, we probably will be more influenced by what the culture and our specific culture, and for us, it’s going to be contending with what Western culture says about us, and probably it’s culture that is defining what it looks like, “to be a disciple of Jesus,” which usually just means, like a nice person who doesn’t want to challenge anything, and attend church. I think on the far other extreme, if we allow our culture to define what discipleship is and not what Jesus sets as maturity markers, that there is a picture, a portrait of what it looks like to be a very visible, recognizable, mature, follower of Jesus all around the world that’s clear to everybody, then the other thing that could happen, because culture is going to set that pace, is assimilation, which is just a PC word for a colonization. And Christian history has already experienced that and continues to experience that. So, I think that the action for why I think that, and why I think leaders should be thinking about that, if we don’t clarify discipleship, and have clear markers around it — it’s not a structure thing — it’s a way to contend against a current culture today.

[00:14:37] Cara: I like that. That’s really helpful to think about why it matters, to identify that, and not just have almost like a fluffy answer of or an unclear answer of, “Well, it just means growing in Christlikeness.”

Sure. That’s great, but what does that actually look like? What does that mean in the real life of a people in a community. That’s really helpful.

One of the other things that you describe on the earlier chapters of your book is this distinction between centered and bounded sets. And I’m wondering both how that helps us as a framework to center discipleship and what makes bounded sets a suitable setting for this discipleship core that you discussed throughout your book.

[00:15:37] Eun: Yeah. Yeah. I’m going to change around some words just because I think it’s more helpful for folks who may not be sociologists in the room, which is pretty much most people.

Yeah, I think that it really is trying to think about what happens in a room when you’re trying to intentionally equip — which is really discipleship, right? We’re trying to intentionally equip and provide spaces and environments for people to have the best chance at really clarifying what it means to imitate Jesus.

If discipleship, in a nutshell, to be as clear as possible, means that a person is imitating Jesus intentionally, actively, within a community — that we don’t believe as Christians that it is a privatized faith, that it happens and is worked out within relationship, within a community — then two things should be happening. Every single person should be actively, intentionally growing and maturing in both their spiritual confidence, but it has to be tethered to their social competence. Meaning that, spiritual competence, meaning what’s the thing that’s forming their identity. They know God. They’re growing in knowing God and loving God. They’re growing in being known and being loved by God. What happens in a person’s identity becomes transformed in that manner?

For the Christian, if you’re imitating Jesus, how you know and love God needs to be tethered to how you live in the world, right? If you know God and love God, then you also need to live like God in the world. You can’t have just one or the other. The flip side, I think in thinking about it that way is that people can’t just be really great at social competence, but not be great at spiritual competence, right? They can’t be people who are just do-gooders, but their motivation comes from someplace else, not anchored in an identity in Christ, right?

So, you have to do both of these things. So, in order for that equipping, and in our culture, where it’s hard to be clear about discipleship and the work is just to clarify what that means in our local context, in our local churches, then there has to be an intentionality to equip a group of people.

So, the bounded set is really just a discipleship core for us. And this can look like a variety of ways, but in the book, Centering Discipleship, it really is a love letter to my church, that the way that we wanted to do it was, I just had 15 people that first year make a commitment. They already love Jesus. They’re making a commitment to love one another and to begin to love of some sort of identified space of mission. So that, that bounded set was, with these 15 folks intentionally going through a discipleship pathway together intentionally being equipped in the ways of Jesus. So, their spiritual competence and their social competence are also being Christ-like.

And then that centered set is really just like the practice space. How do we know that this formation piece is really working? Unless there is practice happening, there’s a practice space where people can actually, like, make mistakes, right? To have the freedom to make mistakes join together in doing work that’s not just alone work to do, right? People can say in formation spaces, oh my goodness, I am being transformed by Jesus because I am growing in patience. You can share that all you want, right?

But you never really, really know if a person is really growing in Christ-like character in the form of patience, unless you see an impatient situation happening.  Is that person actually showing that this kind of fruit, this kind of maturity marker of deep patience, a longsuffering with others and for others, you won’t know it until it’s practiced out, until it’s worked out. So, for me, that founded set is really that, that protected, guarded space where people have the space to be equipped, but that centered set is just as important to be tethered to that bounded set because it’s the practice space. It’s the living space for the disciple within that community.

[00:19:54] Cara: Yes. Thank you. That is really helpful and I really love thinking about that centered set as that practice space where we’re really living out what we are saying that we’re being transformed in.

I think that’s, I always to think about that, like, as are we putting flesh on what we’re saying? We’re learning. And so, thinking about being intentional about are we living this out together, I think, is really important. So, I love that you have that as a key aspect of the process of discipleship. And also, …

[00:20:39] Eun: For all the folks who feel like, oh, discipleship should be organic, or you know, that is structured, trust me, it’s that practice space that, that puts that flesh, like you were saying, Cara, to how it’s flexible, it’s organic. You get … it’s unpredictable, like all those things are really happening, but you’re trying to clarify, so that people can pay attention to it, right?

That’s the bounded sets job — you’re trying to help people to pay attention to it, focus on it, put attention to it, prioritize it — to only want people of Jesus to want to prioritize their imitation of Jesus. We want that to happen. We’re just saying that centered set is like how we’re going to live it out.

[00:21:23] Cara: I love that. I really appreciate what you have shared with us so far and I’m praying for our listeners that this importance of really bringing to the center discipleship and what it looks like to begin to shift our, not just our viewpoint and our mindsets about discipleship in our church context, but also what it can begin to look like, to start shifting our practices and our structures is something that we begin to start reflecting on and chewing on.

I, for all of our listeners, want to encourage you if you haven’t already, to please read Ms. Strawser’s book that we are exploring, again called, Centering Discipleship: A Pathway for Multiplying Spectators into Mature Disciples. You will see a link in our show notes in order to purchase that if you would like a copy of it for yourself.

And keep an eye out in the GCI Equipper for some additional information about a book club for this book, so that you can, along with a cohort of your peers, engage with this further and see, really tangibly, what it would look like to engage this centering of discipleship in your local context.

And thank you so much for sharing with us today. And folks, until next time, keep on living and sharing the gospel.

Thanks for listening to the GC podcast. We hope this episode inspired and equipped you to lead with health and purpose. We would love to hear from you. If you have a suggestion on the topic or if there’s someone who you think we should interview, please email us info@gci.org.