4:13 Podcast: Can I Get Back Up When I Want To Give Up? With Shawn Johnson [Episode 379]

Shawn Johnson: He said, "I'm not saying it's not going to be hot, I'm not saying it's not going to burn, but we're not walking away from this." He said, "This is not going to steal your joy, it's not going to steal your calling, it's not going to steal who you are as a husband or a father." He said, "We're going to walk through this thing and we're going to come out stronger on the other side." And he said, "I'm going to be with you every single step of the way." And then he just said it again, "We're going to kiss this fire and walk away whistling."

Jennifer Rothschild: When life turns up the heat and you just really want to give up, will you face the flames? Will you keep the faith? Will you keep fighting until God does the miraculous? Well, Pastor Shawn Johnson found himself asking those very questions after he was diagnosed with a terrible, devastating brain disease that made him just want to give up on everything, including his faith and his future. But the turning point was a phone call from a friend who said to him that this situation was not going to steal his joy, take away his peace, or change his calling. His friend said this -- and you're going to love it -- "You are going to kiss this fire and walk away whistling."

Oh, my friends, this is one of the best conversations that you will ever hear. It's deep, it's funny, it's vulnerable, and it's wise and practical. And can I just suggest that you get some tissues, because both Shawn and I by the end were in tears. Good tears, happy tears. In fact, this was so deeply meaningful to me that KC and I, we're not even going to talk when we're done with this conversation. No. Instead, I'm going to sing over you my song "Take Me to the Cross," because seriously, that's the one place we all need most.

All right. Ready, set, buckle up. Here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends. Listen, this is going to be a great episode. So if you're new to us, may I please introduce myself. I'm Jennifer. And that was my Seeing Eye Guy, KC. And we have one goal, and it's to help you be and do more than you feel capable as you're living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. Aren't you thankful for the truth?

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: We can do it through Christ, only through Christ. You're going to hear that as Shawn shares some of his story and some of the practical encouragement he gleaned from it and can give to you. And I'm just saying, it was so good and I just so want to make sure that you experience the ministry of this conversation, that unlike typically where KC and I talk at the end, we're not going to do that. We're going to make sure you know all you need to know right here. Okay?

So, KC, that means the Show Notes, all the things, tell them where they need to go, because they're going to want to read this transcript.

KC Wright: Yes. Show Notes are simply at 413podcast.com/379. 413podcast.com/379. And that'll get you to not only the transcript, my friend, but we will link you to his book and Jennifer's song that you will hear at the end. Okay? And we are truly giving one of Shawn's books away --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we are.

KC Wright: -- this very day. So you know the drill by now. All you have to do, go to Instagram @jennrothschild to enter to win. Someone's going to win. Might as well be you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Might as well be you.

KC Wright: And I hope you do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Also, you are going to hear in this conversation in just a sec that I mention a friend of mine -- we've known him for years -- Coach Mark Richt.

He used to be the head coach of the Georgia Bulldogs, among others, and he struggled with a brain disease. In fact, he's in the middle of it, Parkinson's. And so I'll have a link to his book and to (fumbling her words) -- that was funny, KC. Go ahead and laugh. I'm not editing. Thank you. Okay. And to the two podcasts that Mark was on with us.

Okay. So now you know all that you need to know, so, KC, let's get this blessing going. Introduce Shawn Johnson.

KC Wright: Shawn Johnson, he serves as lead pastor of Red Rocks Church, a community he and a small group started in 2005 in Denver, Colorado. Red Rocks Church is a single church with multiple locations. He is the author of "Kiss the Fire" and "Attacking Anxiety." He and his wife, Jill, have three active sons: Ethan. Austin, and Ashton. So when they're not at church, they're usually watching or playing sports.

Jennifer Rothschild: I bet they are.

KC Wright: All right. This is going to be so good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, it is.

KC Wright: I'm so excited for you to receive right now. Pull up a chair. There's room at the table for you. Here are Shawn and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Shawn, I'm super glad you are with me. And we were just talking before we got on mic, so I'll let everybody know it's allergy season. And so if you hear a little bit of hoarseness, you'll know why.

But we're going to start with something, Shawn, that you deal with in your book. And to me it's the hardest part of your story. You were diagnosed with an incurable degenerative brain disease. And, like, I cannot -- I can't imagine that, the fear, the devastation. And so, you know, I know it's a hard place to start, but let's start with the hard because there's a lot of hope there. Tell us this part of your story.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah. So I had torn my bicep wake surfing with a group of guys that I'm in a small group with. I was doing rehab, and the -- my arm had been in a brace for, like, six weeks after the surgery. And as we were doing rehab, my left arm and hand was trembling a little bit. And the physical therapist thought no big deal, it's atrophy from the surgery.

Well, that continued into the rehab process, and one day she said, you know, "You might want to see a neurologist." And I thought, well, that sounds weird. You know, I hurt my arm. Why would I want to see a neurologist? And I thought -- I have had a few times in the past where I've gotten, like, some injections in the back of my neck because I was getting a pinched nerve that was kind of affecting my left arm from time to time, and so I thought, well, maybe that has something to do with the neck and the brain, you know, whatever, so, yeah, I'll go see the neurologist. And they're like, "Yeah, we want to run some scans," and said, "Okay, great."

Well, my wife happened to be with me. And we went back to this doctor's office, and literally sitting there with my wife expecting this doctor to tell me, you know, "You have a pinched nerve." And he said, "I have bad news. You have an incurable brain disease." And what he thought it was at the time -- which they don't think it is now, but they don't know for sure -- the average lifespan is seven years after that diagnosis. And, you know, it really was one of those moments. You know, you hear people's stories of, like, my life changed in a doctor's appointment, and you just -- I never thought it would be my story.

And me and my wife just went and sat in the parking lot -- in fact -- I'll tell you this. I said to the doctor -- you know, I was so shocked, I said, "I don't understand." I said, you know, "I thought I had a pinched nerve." I said, "What's best case scenario?" And he said, "That we find lung cancer."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness.

Shawn Johnson: And I said, "Wait, wait. What?" And he said, "Well, at least if we could find some large cancerous tumor, that could be responsible for some of the symptoms and at least then we could fight it." He said, "What I believe you have, there's nothing you can do about it, and you can't fight it." And I said, "Okay. Well, what's worst case scenario, then?" And he said, "That your wife will change and feed you at some point for the rest of your life."

And so it was just the craziest thing. I don't even know how to put it into words other than shock, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Shawn Johnson: We went out in the parking lot of this hospital and I just wept. Sorry. I didn't think I'd get emotional talking about it. I said to my wife, I said, you know, "I'm so sorry because I don't know what this will mean for you." And my wife is so much better than me at pretty much everything in life. She literally reaches in her back seat, grabs her Bible, and starts reading a verse. And I said, "What are you doing?" And she said, "Well," she said, "I'm not scared, I'm not going anywhere, and it looks like we need a miracle, so let's start praying for that."

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Shawn Johnson: Sorry. I didn't think I'd get this emotional.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it's worthy of emotion, Shawn. I mean, it's big --

Shawn Johnson: Yeah, so that was a crazy day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. Okay. You've lived many days since this.

Shawn Johnson: Yes, ma'am.

Jennifer Rothschild: So I'm going to ask you in a minute about a conversation you had with a friend and what this friend said. But I know our listeners are wondering, as I am, how are you now? What's your situation now?

Shawn Johnson: Thank you for asking. So I am -- the diagnosis is somewhere in the Parkinson's family. And so I go to Mayo Clinic two to three times a year right now. I take medicine five times a day. And I'm working out like crazy and -- I'm actually doing a lot of boxing. For some reason, you know, they can't -- they don't know where this comes from. They couldn't even tell me if it's, like, passed on from generation to generation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, like a recessive thing. Yeah.

Shawn Johnson: But they do believe that physical exercise to the point of exhaustion, that simultaneously makes your mind work really hard, is the only thing they can guess would slow down the degeneration. It sort of tells your brain you're working too hard today, you don't get to degenerate today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Interesting.

Shawn Johnson: And so they really think boxing is a good workout. In fact, around the country -- I didn't know this -- they actually have -- certain cities around the country have a thing called Boxing for PD, which is for Parkinson's disease.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness.

Shawn Johnson: So I'm doing a lot of that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Wow.

Shawn Johnson: And, yeah, the medicine for the most part masks most of the symptoms at this point. I can feel it, but you'd have to kind of be trying to look for it to see it. Like, my wife and family can see it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sure.

Shawn Johnson: And then, you know, I think one of the harder things is is the unknown, because they're like, well, it will turn much worse, and we couldn't tell you what day that will happen. And so that's, you know, one of the harder parts of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, gosh, yeah. It's just -- you were dealt a fatal blow, but a slow burn, and that's just so hard. I mean, I'm processing this on so many levels. I have a dear friend, who's a former coach, who has Parkinson's, and I've seen how he struggles. It's interesting, Shawn, he said one of the only things that helps him is the extreme physical exercise.

Shawn Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: So that's very interesting. And you're not an older man either. Sometimes we think things like this only happen to people in their 70s and 80s. And you're also a pastor, is that correct?

Shawn Johnson: That's right. Yeah. In fact, my grandfather, my mom's dad -- I never met my real dad. But my mom's dad was diagnosed with Parkinson's, but he was in his late '70s.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Gosh. Well, this is why outside of the sovereignty of God we would have no hope. I mean, I'm just thankful for God's sovereignty.

Shawn Johnson: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: And for the body of Christ. Because you had a conversation with a friend who said something to you that inspired this book that we're talking about, "Kiss the Fire." And so I'd like you to tell us about him and why you use this phrase as the title of your book.

Shawn Johnson: Yes. So I went into -- you know, maybe as you would imagine -- a bit of a tailspin after that day. And, you know, I'd like to say it didn't rattle my faith, I'm just too good of a Christian for something like that; but it did. And I went home -- in fact, our church was in the middle of a fast, and I stopped at a gas station and got a box of Krispy Kreme donuts.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sorry, but that's awesome.

Shawn Johnson: No lie. And I was like, yeah, this fast is over.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, we can relate. That's good.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah. And I went and sat on my back porch and I just went into this like -- what felt emotionally like just a dark pit. I was mad at God, sad, scared. And, you know, you have those feelings of, like, "Why me?" and, "It's not fair." And I sent two text messages, one to one of the guys I work with on our executive team here at the church and just said, "Hey, I'm going to take the rest of this week off," and then one to a guy in my small group -- I'm in a small group with seven other guys -- and I just said, "Hey, I won't be there tonight."

Well, apparently my wife had sent out a couple texts to some friends saying, you know, "Will you pray?" And I had literally in a day went to this spot of I want nothing to do with God. I don't even want to work at a church. I don't want to talk to anybody, I don't want anyone to call me and telling me they're praying for me and God's got it. Like, I don't want to hear any of it. I'm angry and hurt and sad and just kind of devastated.

And one of the guys in my small group called, and he is a UFC, a mixed martial arts coach. In fact, he was voted one of the 20 greatest UFC coaches of all time, and one of the few people in the world that I'm literally afraid of. And so I was like, yeah, I'm going to have to take his call. And I told him what had happened. And he was listening, and he goes, "Yeah," he goes, "Well, I'll tell you what, Shawn." He said, "We're going to kiss this fire and walk away whistling." And I said, "Coach" -- I call him "Coach." He's actually who I box with. And he lets me box in an octagon, so I pretend I'm a UFC fighter when I do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good for you.

Shawn Johnson: He -- I said, "Coach, that sounds great, but I don't know what that means." And he said, "I'm not saying it's not going to be hot, I'm not saying it's not going to burn, but we're not walking away from this." He said, "This is not going to steal your joy, it's not going to steal your calling, it's not going to steal who you are as a husband or a father." He said, "We're going to walk through this thing and we're going to come out stronger on the other side." And he said, "I'll be with you every single step of the way." And then he just said it again, "We're going to kiss this fire and walk away whistling."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, thank you, Lord, for the family of God. When you don't have the strength or the interest he stepped in, he stepped in for you.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah. And that was just it. It was like I didn't have the strength, but people like that, that will push you closer to God when you can't get there on your own, are so vital.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, they are.

Shawn Johnson: And so then my whole small group came over and -- it is really funny because I kind of do life with two groups of guys. One of the groups of guys is the guys I run this church with, and then one of the groups of guys is my small group.

So the executive team from the church came over. And it would be -- if you're a church person, it would be the sort of prayer you would expect. They came over with anointing oil and, you know, they're laying hands on my shoulders and praying verses and all that stuff. And then they left and then my small group came over. And none of them work at a church. And their prayers were a lot different. There's no anointing oil and, honestly, a few cuss words in their prayers. And no less authentic, no less --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right. Aw.

Shawn Johnson: And we just sat there, gosh, for what felt like hours. And, you know, we talked and cried together, but what was awesome is we also laughed together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Shawn Johnson: And -- yeah, so that's where the title comes from --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's brilliant.

Shawn Johnson: -- is from that conversation. And that phrase has become kind of just a mantra for me of, like -- one thing that used to always confuse me is, you know, Jesus said, "In this world, you'll have troubles." And then he also said, "I came to give you life to the fullest."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Shawn Johnson: And I almost at times was like, well, which one is it, Jesus? And I used to think it was like a mountain range or like a roller coaster, it was like this season is life to the fullest and then, you know, this week is a lot of trouble. And then this month is life to the fullest and then this two months is -- and now I see it more like train tracks. I picture, like, if I could ask Jesus and I go, "Hey, which one is it? Is it life to the fullest or is it we'll have troubles?" I think his answer would be, "Yes."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawn Johnson: And I think the idea is is we live a life that almost always is throwing us something to worry about and we can live life to the fullest at the same time. And so for me, I remind myself daily, yeah, this isn't what I want. But because of the Holy Spirit that's inside of me, because of the God-fearing community around me, I will kiss this fire. And I can still have joy today even though there's things in my life that I don't love.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. You'll come out whistling.

Shawn Johnson: That's it.

Jennifer Rothschild: But, you know, when you think of kissing the fire, you think of your lips getting burned and charred, and it takes a little more effort to whistle when you're in that much pain.

Shawn Johnson: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But, you know, you really -- I mean, I'm just listening and feeling very honored that I'm getting to hear a work of God in progress right now in you. And I can recognize the deep abiding faith and humility it takes for you to be part of this process for his glory, and I thank you -- as your sister in Christ, I thank you.

Shawn Johnson: Thank you.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's really hard and meaningful, Shawn, and you clearly haven't quit. And in your book you talk about not quitting. In fact, I think you give us three reasons that we should keep fighting and that we should refuse to give up. Can you give us a couple of those reasons.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah. In fact, I'll give you all three real quick. The first one is -- and they're kind of long, and I -- you know, I felt like in writing this -- I've never done anything quite like this because this book isn't a I went through some stuff and now let me tell you how I am on the other side. This one is a I'm in the middle of it, and probably so is everybody who will listen or read it. And so there's more purpose in the pain than you could ever imagine. You're going to be so glad you didn't give up. And that third one is God only uses broken people.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So I want to unpack some of those. Let's just start with the broken people. Okay?

Shawn Johnson: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So unpack that for us. And I'm curious even just for you personally as a pastor and a struggler, how has that shaped you?

Shawn Johnson: It's interesting. So I wrote a book a few years ago -- I never intended to ever write a book. I don't even enjoy the process and I'm not very good at the process.

About six years ago I started having panic attacks really bad as a pastor. And great wife, great kids, great church. On paper had this perfect life, and I couldn't control panic attacks. And they got so bad that I was having them multiple times a day. I couldn't function, I couldn't go to work some days, I couldn't ride in a car some days. I would leave restaurants. And I ended up checking myself into a seven-week anti-anxiety treatment center, it had gotten that bad. And I had even started to have suicidal intentions. And, you know, as a pastor it's like, well, I can't admit how screwed up I am. Or at least that's what I thought.

So anyways, I took about five months off work all total. And I was finally getting ready to come back to church and, you know, I wasn't perfect by any means, but I was better and healthier and stronger than I ever thought I would be. And I was talking to some pastors about, like, man, I'm going to go back to the church and, like, I want to tell them everything that happened. And there was a bunch of pastors -- not a bunch. There's a few pastors that said, "Hey, man, be careful how much you share, because you don't want them to lose faith in you." And that was really hard for me to process, because I'm like, I've been hiding this for too long already, I don't want to hide it anymore.

And then I talked to one pastor, and it was so freeing, he goes, "You know what?" He said, "You know what your church wants to hear? They want to hear that your house sucks too sometimes." That's what he said. And I thought, that's brilliant.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is brilliant.

Shawn Johnson: So anyways, I was getting ready to go tell the church. And what I felt like God had told me was, hey, I never asked you to get these people to have faith in you. I just told you to ask them to have faith in me.

And so I'm talking to my counselor, I go, "Okay, I got to go back to the church." And I said something in this last counseling session, I said, "Man, I don't know if I can." I said, "I'm not fixed yet." And he goes, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, I'm better, but I still have a little anxiety now and then, I still feel a little depressed now and then, I still feel kind of just broken, you know."

And he goes, "Let me ask you a question." He goes, "If you were God and you were picking the person to run Red Rocks Church" -- that's the name of our church -- he said, "Would you want" -- he said, "Say you had two candidates. And one of them, he's so put together. Like, he's so close to perfect that he doesn't even really need to ever even check in with you because he's just really, really great at everything and pretty close to perfect." He goes, "Or you got a guy that's so broken that he knows the only way he can do this is if he checks in with you every day and relies fully on you."

And I go, "Well" -- you know, I got his point, obviously, and I said, "I think I'd probably want the broken guy." And he said this so deep statement to me. He goes, "Yeah." He goes, "Shawn, God only uses broken people, because what other kinds are there?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Isn't that the truth.

Shawn Johnson: And it was so freeing for me, because in my mind, if I'm a pastor, I just got to kind of pretend to have certain things under control and I can't really be real about my struggles. And I was able to come back to our church and I was just super honest with them. I told them about the anxiety, the panic. I told them about the times when I thought about taking my own life. I told them everything. And I thought the church might just crumble, you know. I think it doubled. It was so crazy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Wow. That's really such a picture, Shawn, of - you know where in 2 Corinthians 12, the Lord says to Paul that his strength is made perfect in our weakness. And I don't think sometimes we get it. But that's it. Otherwise people would see your strength. But they're seeing God's strength.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you know what? I cannot help but remember -- this is so many years ago. I'm in ministry. And I remember -- it was our small group, and I remember our small group leader got up and he started reading the story of the Good Samaritan. And literally I tuned out because I'm like, been there, done that.

And as he's reading it, I thought -- I caught myself. And I'm like, oh, sorry, Lord. Okay, it's Your Word, it's living, I want to be a part of it. So I start asking myself questions as he's reading. Okay. Like, am I the Levite? Am I the priest? Am I the one who walked away? Am I the religious one who's too busy? You know, thinking in the story, who am I? And I could not find myself in the story. I mean, I wasn't full of spiritual pride, but I was like, well, no. I mean, I know that's not my deal right now, I'm not acting -- anyway.

And it was like the Lord said to me, there is a fourth person in this story, and it's the broken one on the side of the road. And it was like I was alone in that room with the Lord, and I was like -- I've never wanted to say or admit or identify that, oh, yeah, I might be the broken one who needs help. But I'm always trying to be the priest who fixes things or the Levite who follows the rules or whatever. Wow.

Because none of us want to be the broken one. But it's the broken one that Jesus uses. Oh, wow. Thank you. I can see why the Lord is working in your midst, because he's working in you.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So let's get real practical here. I mean, you've already been very practical. Let's keep it up. Okay. Because in your book you give us seven strategies for kissing the fire -- I love that -- and walking away whistling. Okay. So there's strategies for resilience. So I don't know if you can list them or if you just want to give us a couple of your favorites.

Shawn Johnson: I can. And not because I have that great of a memory, but because I have it sitting in front of me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, good. You're smart. We don't need a good memory if we've got notes.

Shawn Johnson: That's right. So the seven ways in the book, the titles are this: Kill the Lies, Run to God, Choose Who's In Your Corner, Get In The People Business, Decide To Live Today, Dream Again, and Remember Past Fires.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Can I ask you about one of them?

Shawn Johnson: Any of them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Get in the people business. What does that mean to you, get in the people business?

Shawn Johnson: Yeah. So this was super encouraging to me. I've always really been drawn to the Apostle Paul, especially when he was writing letters in prison. Because I grew up in a family that we were professional pity party throwers. Like, you know, if you were to go to one of my family dinners, you would see more dysfunction than you could imagine. But you would also -- every story was a hardship story, but it was never our fault.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry I'm laughing. I know these people. Okay, I'm with you. Got you.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah, yeah. So that just rubbed off on me. And so I've always had a real good ability to sort of play the "poor me" card.

So I've always been drawn to Paul. Because the Book of Philippians, for instance, has four chapters, and he's chained to a Roman guard, a million miles from his dreams, realizing he's probably going to be executed for just trying to help people find Jesus. And he writes this letter -- and, you know, theologians today will say there's one word that describes Philippians, and it's "joy."

And that has always baffled me, because I'm like, nothing in this dude's life has went right. Like, you go down his resume and, you know, it's whippings and beatings and being stoned and shipwrecked and snake-bitten and wrongfully imprisoned and just -- like, nothing has went right. And he writes a letter while chained to a -- probably chained to a Roman guard in prison, and his book is about joy.

And I've always struggled to have joy. And again, I think it's partly because I'm good at feeling sorry for myself. And so one of the things I noticed was, like, everything about these letters he writes from prison, it's always, "I'm praying for you with joy," "I'm writing to you with joy," "I'm encouraging you in this way," "I'm trying to help you through this problem that I know you're dealing with." And it just sort of occurred to me, it's the purpose that he decided to continue to live with in a really bad situation that is bringing him supernatural joy.

So I found myself one day having a real bad morning. And the details aren't important, but it was, you know, feeling sorry for myself. Well, I ended up that day talking with two different people who were just anxious and suicidal and really struggling, and then another student who's having some issues. And I found myself pulling into my driveway on the way home going, why do I feel so good? My day started off really bad. I start off every day with a dopamine deficit because I haven't taken my medicine all night. And so the doctors are like, "You should expect to wake up feeling really depressed and lethargic." I'm like, "Oh, awesome." I'm not a morning person anyway.

But it hit me like -- because I stopped thinking about how bad I have it and I started helping some other people with their problems, and that was all I did that day, and I found myself pulling into my driveway going, why do I have this joy? I'm supposed to be feeling sorry for myself today. And I have found that whenever I will turn around and just focus on helping somebody else with their problems, one of the by-products of that in my life is joy.

And I was meeting with a girl in my office -- and I always ask God, like, "God, speak to me. I don't know what to say." And this girl is just so awesome. Young 20s. She has a brain issue way worse than mine and she's having seizures. And she had all these dreams of going to nursing school, she was in nursing school. Now because of her seizures, she can't drive, she can't leave her mom's house on her own, she can't go to school. Like, she's just paralyzed with fear and with the inability to do the things she wants.

And I found myself in the middle of this talk just out of the blue, and I said to her, I said, "Do you know what you need? You need some purpose in your life." And she's like, "What are you talking about? I can't do anything." I'm like, "Well, that's not true. You have a really bad situation that you're facing, but I bet you if you tried, you'd find that there's some other people that are facing really bad situations too. And you could text them, you could call them, you could write them. You could call somebody and ask them to pray for" -- I was like, "I can't tell you what it is, I'm not God." I said, "But I bet if you ask God how to take your pain and help somebody else with it, I bet he would."

So for me, that's how I think about it. I'm like, I can either feel sorry for myself all day and focus on me and my problems, or I can on purpose get in the people business where I'm going to go help somebody, serve somebody, love somebody in the name of Jesus, and supernatural joy always seems to be the by-product.

Jennifer Rothschild: What a beautiful picture too, Shawn, of just how God redeems everything. Your pain flows into a purpose of helping someone else with their pain, which brings you joy. I mean, it's this virtuous cycle of God being our redeemer. That's just beautiful.

One thing I'm struck with, though, as I listen to you -- so I imagine you -- I know you're probably a pretty athletic guy. I think you have sons and sports is your thing. I can just see you in there with your boxing gloves, you know, tearing up. Okay. But I'm also listening to this man who is willingly being very vulnerable. So my question to you -- I want to ask you a couple questions just about balance. So the first question is this: How do you balance this vulnerability and strength when you're sharing your story? Like, is that hard? How do you do that?

Shawn Johnson: Yeah, it is. And it's a learning process for me because I didn't grow up in church, I didn't grow up as a Christian. I was a cocaine addict who got invited to a church at age 24 and literally gave my life to God with drugs in my pocket. So I didn't have this history of church. I have a history of pretend you're tougher than you are and fight anyone who says differently. And so, you know, pride was just a big thing, and so vulnerability obviously is hard when that's your natural bent.

But then also, because I'm new to this, what I've learned is is I do need to balance it, like what you just said, because if I'm not careful, I'll just share with people a bunch of open wounds, and I think I can do better than that. I can share with people really hard things, but also balance it with, look at the goodness of God and what he's brought me through. Because if all you do is talk about how you're hurting, it kind of just turns into we all have a pity party together.

And so for me it's -- yeah, hurts are a real part of life, but so is God's goodness, and so is his -- you know, that Ephesians 3:20 thing. I'll do more than you could ever ask, think or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us. And so my goal is I'll try to be vulnerable with the hurts, but I'll also bore you to death with the stories of God's goodness.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. As if we could ever get bored. You know, I sense that, and I have heard that, and I appreciate you clarifying it, because I think it's a good word for all of us. So, yeah, thank you for that.

Well, okay, now here's another one I've been thinking of too --

Shawn Johnson: Hit me.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- as far as balance goes. Okay. Self-reliance with humility to ask for help, because I would think that's also -- I mean, that's hard for me. I would think that's hard for somebody like you.

Shawn Johnson: It is. It is. I was in the gym one day and -- God speaks to me in the weirdest ways. And I was in the gym, and a buddy of mine who actually helped start Red Rocks Church was also in the gym. And I had more weight on this bench than I should have had, but I was -- I knew my buddy would glance over every now and then and I wanted him to think I was just stronger. And I didn't ask for a spot because I wanted to look tough.

And the end of the story is is I almost choked myself as I couldn't lift the weight up. Some random 20-year-old had to come over and pull the bar off my neck almost. And God dropped this thought in my head. He goes, you were ten feet away from a man of God who would have gladly helped you. He didn't help you because he didn't know you were struggling.

And I feel like that's how we live our lives sometimes. Even people who go to church often. We can be surrounded by men and women of God who would love to help us, and they don't help us because they don't know we're struggling. And we become kind of the poster child of that Ecclesiastes verse that says, "Pity the one who falls and has no one to help him up." And I was that guy.

When I was six years ago going through panic attacks, nobody in my life knew the last 10%. I was afraid. I was afraid that I wouldn't be respected as a person, as a man, as a pastor. What if people want to leave me? What if people don't love me anymore or wouldn't love me? So, like, my wife even knew I have anxiety, I have depression. Nobody knew. I sat up sometimes after the whole family went to sleep and thought about ways of taking my life. And nobody knew how bad it was, and so no one could really help me.

And so that journey was a really good lesson for me in the importance of letting some people really know you, as scary as that is. And you know what, though? The payoff is so awesome, because not only do you have the stories like my friend calling me saying, "Kiss the fire," but I had this moment with my wife -- I was in that counseling facility about four or five weeks in, and she said, "I can't wait until you come home healthy." And she was just trying to be encouraging. And I was nervous that I wasn't going to ever be fixed, you know.

And so I said to her, I said, "Babe, what if I don't? What if I don't ever get better?" And now that she knows everything, she looked at me and said, "I'm not going anywhere and I love you." And she said "I love you" -- we've been married 26 years. She's said "I love you" a billion times. That one was the most meaningful because it was the first time I felt like she actually knows how jacked up I really am and still says she loves me and she's not going anywhere.

And so there's this amazing relationship, like almost invisible wall that comes down between people when you actually allow someone to really know you, and then they get to choose to still be with you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And, I mean, what an esteem it grants to the person with whom you're being honest or the person to whom you're asking for help, right? It esteems them. It's saying you're worthy of my trust, you know. My relationship with you is more important than my pride or whatever.

Shawn Johnson: Yeah, for sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: There's a million ways we could complete that sentence for ourselves.

I'm so thankful for what God is doing in you, Shawn. My 4:13ers, I cannot recommend this book more highly. You need it. You know somebody who needs it. I just -- we're going to talk about, when Shawn and I are done here, how you can get the book, because you need the book. So, like, don't even -- don't even think of getting done with this podcast until you've gone to the Show Notes and gotten the book.

Okay. But, Shawn, you and me, we are going to hit our last question. Okay? And I really hate to -- I'm so glad you've written the book, because I don't even want to come to the last question. There's so much here that I could continue to ask. But here it is, last question.

Shawn Johnson: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. I just want you to make it super simple for the listeners who are feeling like I am, inspired in all of what God is doing. So many things we're processing. But we need one thing. We just need one thing to take away. Okay? What is a process or a next step that we can do to turn this pain that we might be in into purpose?

Shawn Johnson: It does depend where you're at in that journey, right? And so let's just say that you're in the -- just despair and don't know what to do. I would say -- I do two things now. Literally it's a reflex.

I immediately tell somebody and I get into God's presence. I immediately call my wife, text my small group, "Hey, I think I'm having a panic attack today," and then I -- no matter where I'm at, I go sit in my car, I go lay on a floor, I go somewhere and put on a worship song and I just get in God's presence. Because we are promised there's fullness of joy in his presence, and there is peace in his presence, and there is confidence and joy in his presence.

And so for me, the first two decisions I make is -- because on autopilot, I just go inside and I isolate. I want to evaporate. I don't want anyone to see me hurting and I want to be quiet about it and I want to hide from the world, and that's when it just tailspins and gets worse.

So the first two things is so important, is choose who's in your corner and let them know when you're hurting -- and again, I talk about that in the book -- and then run to God. And for me, the very first step is worship. And it's hard because, you know, when I got this diagnosis, the last thing in the world I wanted to do was to worship, because you find yourself thinking, what do I have to be grateful for?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. What in the world?

Shawn Johnson: Look at what I'm going through, look at how bad I'm hurting right now. And the truth is is we have so much to be grateful for. And I force myself to make lists. And I read them out loud in the morning, and I'll read them at night. And they're just lists of things I have to be thankful for, because sometimes I need to remind myself. Sometimes I need to remind Satan, I got a lot to be thankful for.

And I do this thing -- and then I'll shut up. I'm a hand raiser in worship. Which is crazy because, like I said, I didn't grow up in church and, you know, it wasn't my thing. Every now and then when I get real passionate in worship, I'll put both hands in the air. Well, since I got this diagnosis, worship was the hardest thing for me to come back to.

And so now, oftentimes when I worship, I only put my left hand in the air, because that's the hand and the arm that is most affected by what's going on. And so for me, I just say, you know, today I choose to worship with my bad arm and -- sorry. It's a --

Jennifer Rothschild: You're killing me, man.

Shawn Johnson: I know. I'm killing me too.

Jennifer Rothschild: Listen, that is so --

Shawn Johnson: It's a reminder to me that I can worship through some things, it's a reminder to God that I'm not going anywhere, and it's a reminder to Satan that you don't get to win. So if you're hurting, if you don't know what to do next, call somebody who will pray for you and just go spend some time in God's presence.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that right there is what it sounds like to whistle. That's right there what it is.

(Singing) He said the cancer's back and he's afraid. He wonders why. So do I. And his greatest battle is against his fear. It's so unclear. He wonders why. The God who heals won't reveal himself in ways we understand.

She said her baby never had a chance to breathe. So she grieves. So do I. And she struggles with the bitterness and loss, but she looks to the Cross, and she cries. And in the mystery we trust and we adjust and we wonder why.

Oh, take me to the Cross and cry each of my tears. Hide me in your tomb, crucify my fears. I'll praise you with my pain, though the mystery remains that you are a God who cries. You are a Savior who died. We can trust you with why.

So I travel down this bumpy road called faith, and with blind eyes, I still try to embrace all that I can't understand, like your kind plan, your merciful plan. And I'm not angered, I am anchored, yet I feel weightless, and I am hateless.

Since you took me to your Cross and cried each of my tears. Hid me in your tomb, crucified my fears, I'll praise you with my pain, though the mystery remains that you are a God who cries. You are a Savior who died. We can trust you with why.

I'll ask you why, why this grace? Tell me why, why such peace? Tell me why, why such love? I'll praise you with my pain, though the mystery remains. You are a God who cries. You are a Savior who died. We can trust you with why.

4:13 Podcast: Your Thanksgiving Soundtrack [Episode 378]

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, 4:13ers, this is Jennifer Rothschild. Welcome to a Thanksgiving edition of the 4:13 Podcast. I'm here with my Seeing Eye Guy, KC Wright, and it's two friends, one topic, and zero stress, and we just popped in to tell you Happy Thanksgiving.

We figure you might be in the kitchen, either cleaning up leftovers or buttering your rolls and roasting a turkey, or maybe you're in the car heading out to do some Christmas shopping early the day after Thanksgiving. Whenever you're listening, KC and I want to be a part of it, because it's Thanksgiving. And guess what we're thankful for?

Jennifer and KC: You.

Jennifer Rothschild: So welcome to the 4:13. Thanks for letting us hang out with you and your people. You know what we're going to talk about today? Guess. Okay, this will be really hard. Thankfulness.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: We're going to talk thankfulness. And you know what? KC and I just sat in here with our coffees, we just had some protein peanut butter balls.

KC Wright: Mm-hmm.

Jennifer Rothschild: We're just going to talk Thanksgiving.

KC Wright: Yeah. We just want to encourage you from God's Word about how to develop thankfulness every day of your life, not just the one day --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's right.

KC Wright: -- of the year. So right out of this thankful gate, we want to express our own thankfulness to God for you, our 4:13ers, and all you do as you partner with this ministry of the 4:13 Podcast. It means the world to us that you allow us in your space.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: Because there's so many things that are vying for your affection. And it means so much that you have went to your phone, downloaded the podcast --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: -- pressed play --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: -- and you're giving us some of your time. Wow. Can we just say we're thankful for that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. We are super thankful. Super thankful for you. And thankful for those of you who have left -- well, we're thankful for all of you.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: But especially thank you for leaving reviews if you've done that. That's a kind action, and I know it takes time to do it. But, yeah, we are.

And I want to know, KC -- so we're going to develop a sense of thankfulness every day?

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: You gonna tell us how? Because, like, I need to know how.

KC Wright: Yeah. You see, there is always something we can be grateful and thankful about, but we must choose to develop a grateful and thankful attitude.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, so it's an attitude?

KC Wright: Uh-huh.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. All right.

KC Wright: In 2 Timothy 3:2, Paul, who wrote more than half of the New Testament -- thank God for Paul. We do not talk about Paul enough.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Thank you, Paul.

KC Wright: I'm thankful for Paul.

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too. I'm thankful for him too, yeah.

KC Wright: But he said that in the last days, men shall be lovers of their own selves. And he goes on to talk about men and women that will be proud, and blasphemers and disobedient to parents. But listen, he then says in the last days, people will be unthankful.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's interesting.

KC Wright: So since we know that being unthankful will be a temptation people will be prone to fall into, we must determine in our hearts to instead run in the other direction --

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen.

KC Wright: -- and be known for being thankful and grateful. So I've just pulled out some Thanksgiving Scriptures --

Jennifer Rothschild: That's perfect.

KC Wright: -- that I just want to speak over your life and read to you. Is that okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, I love hearing the Word read.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So, yeah, go for it.

KC Wright: So the Bible commands us to be thankful, and in everything give thanks. Okay? Even if things seem to be going wrong all around us, we can stop to count our blessings. Okay? This is why it's so important to make that decision to be grateful and thankful every day of your life. When you wake up, oh, I'm so thankful he's given me another day. I'm so thankful for these slippers. I'm so thankful for this cup of coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: I'm so thankful that I've got a roof over my head.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: A hot shower. Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and when you're thankful like that, KC, it helps really focus on what you've got and everything that's right, rather than everything that's wrong --

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- which is such a temptation.

KC Wright: Well, the Bible says that he inhabits the praises of his people. So who inhabits the throne of our complaining?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right?

KC Wright: Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Welcome, Satan, to my day. Could you make it worse, please.

KC Wright: I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: So, you know, someone once said you can praise and be raised or you can complain and remain. So I want to give you several Bible verses concerning thankfulness that you can meditate on while you're eating leftovers or just getting ready to sit down with your family.

Colossians 3:17, "And whatsoever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." So this verse encourages you to give thanks to God in whatever you do --

Jennifer Rothschild: Whatever, yeah.

KC Wright: -- or are asked to do for him.

1 Thessalonians 5:18, "In everything give thanks, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you." So this verse says you are to give thanks to God in everything. But not for everything, in everything.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right, in everything.

KC Wright: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm so thankful I just got hit in my car. No, you don't want to give thanks for that. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: No. Right, right.

KC Wright: Well, you can be giving praise that you were protected. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

KC Wright: Psalms 26:7 says, "That I may publish with the voice of thanksgiving and tell of all thy wondrous works."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that verse.

KC Wright: Yes. This verse says that we are to publish with the voice of thanksgiving. So maybe you don't publish books like J.R., or blogs or articles. But when you make your posts on social media --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: -- we all do that -- make sure you publish posts that show you have a thankful heart to God and to others. Because those are my favorite.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. You know, I'm glad you said that, KC. We need to pause at that verse because -- I've not thought of that, but publishing thanksgiving is such a witness to others, but it also changes the atmosphere.

Because, you know, when we just focus on the negative -- because there's plenty, let's be honest. We've just had an election. Things are crazy. But when we publish thanksgiving, we train our own selves and those around us to focus on the good, focus on what we have to be grateful for, and that is super powerful.

I love that, KC. I had forgotten about that verse.

KC Wright: Psalms 34:1 says, "I will bless the Lord at all times. His praise shall continually be in my mouth." Would others say your mouth is continually filled with praise and thankfulness? We need to make it our aim to be known as a thankful and grateful person.

Psalms 89:1 says, "I will sing of the mercies of the Lord forever. With my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations." Psalms 92:1-2, "It is a good thing to give thanks unto the Lord and to sing praises unto his name, O Most High, to show forth thy loving kindness in the morning and thy faithfulness every single night." So this tells me that we're to start our day by thanking and to end the day by thanking.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And you know what you do in between?

KC Wright: Thank.

Jennifer Rothschild: Thank.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: You know, it is good, the Bible says -- and by the way, KC, I love that you were reading some King James.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Some of these verses, they just are so beautiful in the King James version. But I love that phrase. It is good. It is good to give thanks. It's never going to be a negative thing. You know what I tell my people? Generosity is never a bad choice. Okay? Same concept. It is good to give thanks. It is never going to be a bad thing, my people, for us to give thanks.

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. This is so recalibrating.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: We need this, KC.

KC Wright: Now, I'm a stickler for the Amplified Classic, and then I love the Message Bible. But when it came to these Thanksgiving Scriptures, I did, I did a Google search on the King James.

Jennifer Rothschild: There's just something about it.

KC Wright: There is.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Psalms 100:4, "Enter into his gates with thanksgiving and into his courts with praise; be thankful unto him and bless his name." Does God see you as a person who is continually thankful and grateful, or someone who's just always griping and complaining?

Psalms 103:1, "Bless the Lord, O my soul --

Jennifer Rothschild: O my soul.

KC Wright: -- and forget not all his benefits."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Hallelujah.

KC Wright: You know, and this psalm goes on to say, "Who heals thee of all thy diseases, who forgives you of all your sins." You know, thankfulness is such an easy place to jump into. There have been many times, you know, at church I go, "Are you thankful this morning?" and, you know, it's kind of like it falls flat. Listen, here's why you should be thankful. You're not in a hospital room right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly.

KC Wright: You're not in a jail cell right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly.

KC Wright: You're in church on a Sunday. Come on.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it's true, KC, because it could always be worse.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think sometimes unless we choose the attitude of gratefulness, we focus on the worst. And it's true, it could always be worse. So there's always a reason to be thankful.

KC Wright: Psalms 105:1 says, "Oh, give thanks unto the Lord, call upon his name; make known his deeds among the people."

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, I love it.

KC Wright: So bottom line is, gratitude doesn't come naturally to us, but grumbling does. And so having that 1 Thessalonians 5:18 absolutely tattooed on our soul.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: "In everything give thanks, for this is the will of God." It is the will of God for us to be thankful. We have so much to be thankful for. He's blessed us. He's taken care of you. So I want to encourage you on this Thanksgiving to turn off the complaining faucet and turn on the Thanksgiving faucet.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: In everything give thanks, for this is the will of God for you.

And I'm always reminded of the story of the little boy and his Happy Meal from the Bible. So Jesus is teaching. And what happens? People are sitting -- 5,000 have gathered on this day.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, and they're hungry.

KC Wright: Okay? Hunger pangs have set in.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Hungary crowds are not good crowds.

KC Wright: Right. And back then, they had no food trucks like we do.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: Okay, they didn't have the food truck parking lot. So the Lord knew that, okay, their ears are going to only last -- their hearts' receptivity and their ears being open will only last as long as the stomach -- these stomach pangs have to go. We got to fill them up.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: I'm filling them up in the supernatural and now I got to fill them up in the natural.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: So he's asking around for food, and what does he find but a little boy's Happy Meal, which is two fish and five loaves of bread. Right? Or was it the other way around?

Jennifer Rothschild: No, I think that's right.

KC Wright: I think that's right. Okay, you have to edit that part out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I don't know.

KC Wright: But he found a little boy's Happy Meal, two fish and five loaves of bread. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, that is correct.

KC Wright: And the Lord does something here that I just believe is the key to the supernatural for thanksgiving in your life. He gives thanks. Now, listen, the little boy's Happy Meal is not going to feed 5,000 --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: -- but he gave thanks for what was not enough and got supernaturally fed 5,000, with food left over. Because that's our God. Our God is the Ephesians 3:20 God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yep.

KC Wright: So we pray to our God, "Lord, I've got a little boy's Happy Meal and I got 5,000 hungry mouths." But we go to God in prayer. We call, he answers; we call, he answers; we call, he answers. And he does exceedingly abundantly above all that we can ask --

Jennifer Rothschild: Preach.

KC Wright: -- think according, or even imagine, and he feeds 5,000 with leftovers. So maybe this Thanksgiving is a little hard for you and you don't have enough. But can you be thankful? Because in that heart posture of being thankful for what's not enough, you just watch God. Won't he do it? He's never let you down. He's not going to start today. He's going to multiply whatever you have in front of you.

Jennifer Rothschild: So give thanks. Give thanks in all things, for this is the will of God concerning you. You can because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Happy Thanksgiving.

KC Wright: Happy Thanksgiving.

Jennifer Rothschild: Happy Thanksgiving.

KC Wright: We love you.

Jennifer Rothschild: We sure do. I love those Scriptures. Thank you for that.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Show Empathy to Myself and Others? With Bill & Kristi Gaultiere [Episode 377]

Kristi Gaultiere: In our world we don't have very many safe places. The neurological studies and brain studies show that if I were to be vulnerable with you and tell you about some grief that I'm going through right now, and if you didn't respond with empathy for my grief, the shame centers in my brain would light up and I would close up and I would not want to be vulnerable with you anymore and I would try to go to surface levels, which is why so often our relationships don't go very deep in Christ and discipleship. Or we get just stuck in our head in a believe/do type of Christianity.

Jennifer Rothschild: Did you know that empathy is a proven path to healthier emotions and relationships? Well, now you do. Empathy is often misunderstood, though, and sometimes it's even maligned. Well, I want you to know it's not coddling and it's not rescuing. True empathy is understanding and care that respects God's truth and empowers personal responsibility. It's what your soul needs and it's how Jesus relates to you.

So on today's episode, Drs. Bill and Kristi Gaultiere are going to offer some very compelling insights from Scripture and from psychology to help you receive empathy from God and show that same empathy to yourself and to others. So let the healing begin. KC, come on.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host and my soul sister --

Jennifer Rothschild: Soul sister.

KC Wright: -- Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, everybody. That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. We're two friends shoved here in the closet, talking about one great topic today, with zero stress. And our goal is just to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you are fully relying on Christ and living the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13. I loved this conversation. And here's why. We don't talk about it much. Empathy.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And we don't talk about empathy toward ourselves, we don't talk about empathy toward others, and, in fact, I think there is a great empathy deficit in the world today, especially if you go on social media. Empathy, so we need it, and we need it for ourselves.

KC Wright: Yes, we do. And, you know, there are days in life where you catch all the green lights, and you go to the gym and you own it, and just, oh, my goodness, something happy comes in the mail. And then there are days that you should have just stayed at home.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, you feel that way.

KC Wright: Yeah. And I needed empathy the other day. I should have just stayed at home.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, what happened?

KC Wright: Went to the gas station. I was on empty. All the people that drive around on the E, I hear you. Okay?

Anyway, I put the nozzle in the Jeep and I locked it. I locked it. You can lock it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

KC Wright: Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: See, I didn't know that.

KC Wright: So you don't have to hold it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Okay, gotcha.

KC Wright: I believe I get this from my mother. It's called nervous energy -- and I think she got it from my grandfather -- that we just can't stand still.

Jennifer Rothschild: I understand that.

KC Wright: So the Jeep is being filled, but what am I going to do? So I start multitasking and I said I'll use this moment to clean out my Jeep. Okay? When I did, the locked gas nozzle falls out of the Jeep and it shoots up my shorts. The gas shoots up my shorts -- okay? -- soaking my entire right leg. And by the way, then I couldn't get it unlocked.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Listen. I know these gas stations have cameras, and this could have gone viral. I can't get it unlocked. There's gas -- it's spraying all over. The entire right side of me is soaked with gasoline.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Finally I get it unlocked, I fill up the rest of my tank. Now I have to be a responsible adult and walk into the gas station, because if somebody drops a match --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah, that's --

KC Wright: -- this place is blowing, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

KC Wright: So here I go into the gas station. And I sounded like this (makes squishing sound) because --

Jennifer Rothschild: Your shoes are full of gas.

KC Wright: -- my shoes are filled with gas. Okay? And I walk in and I tell the attendant exactly what I did. He's concerned and slightly looking at me like, Are you medically okay? Are you on any kind of prescription?

So he follows me out and he has this whole machine -- or hose thing that takes care of this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

KC Wright: But it was so embarrassing. I immediately texted a sweet friend of mine, Layne, and she goes, "Do you do this stuff on purpose so you can have show prep for the podcast?"

Jennifer Rothschild: I wish. But, no, that's just your life.

KC Wright: It's just my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, he should have sprayed you down because you were highly flammable.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gosh, KC, that is embarrassing.

KC Wright: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So did you show yourself empathy or did you scold yourself?

KC Wright: I laughed it off.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, good.

KC Wright: But I had other errands to run, and you at that moment don't have the option. You have to go straight home and shower --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yes.

KC Wright: -- because one half of your body smells like gas.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's hilarious.

KC Wright: Unleaded.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, listen, you need unleaded. With your sparky personality, you definitely needed unleaded gas.

KC Wright: Anyway, I'm just saying, that could have went viral.

Jennifer Rothschild: It could have gone viral.

KC Wright: Seeing that gas and that hose just flare all over the parking lot.

Jennifer Rothschild: You told the story well 'cause I could visualize the whole thing. That's hilarious.

KC Wright: Yeah. Anyway...

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well, anyway, you know what? It's a good thing we've got two psychologists on the program, because I think you need this. So let's introduce Bill and Kristi Gaultiere.

KC Wright: Let's do it. Bill and Kristi have been counseling and ministering to people for 30 years and are the authors of "Journey of the Soul" and "Healthy Feelings, Thriving Faith." Bill is a psychologist and Kristi is a marriage and family therapist. They are AACC leaders and have served in private practice and church ministries. They are the founders of Soul Shepherding, a nonprofit ministry to help believers discover their next steps for growing in intimacy with Jesus, emotional health, and loving relationships.

All right. Are you ready? Because the doctors are in.

Jennifer Rothschild: The doctors are in. I knew you were going to say that.

All right, Bill and Kristi, I love that you all are married and you've got this partnership in ministry. And I especially love what we're going to talk about today. So your book is called "Deeply Loved." And we're going to talk about the nature of the book, which is dealing with empathy and the importance of empathy.

But let's start with something a little difficult just to get it out of the way. Okay? There's some books out there that contend that maybe empathy is toxic. In fact, there's a book that deals with toxic empathy, and another one calls empathy a sin. So I think we need to start with what your definition of empathy is. And let's get honest. Is it toxic? Is it a sin?

Bill Gaultiere: Well, we believe that empathy is throughout the Bible. The word is not used in the older translations, it's used in the newer translations. But empathy is -- the concept of empathy is all throughout the Scriptures, it's embedded in compassion.

It's sort of an unfortunate misunderstanding that's happening right now that really those books are against -- not true biblical empathy, but against, like, indulgence, codependency, coddling people. And so we say is that empathy is always connected to truth and responsibility. In fact, we give, like, this formula for growth, you know, "formula" in quotes. But empathy plus truth plus responsibility equals growth.

So empathy without telling the truth, speaking the truth in love, like Ephesians 4:15 says, if empathy doesn't foster personal responsibility, then it's not going to be helpful. So in that sense, there could be an unhealthy empathy that would be toxic. But it's sort of changing the meaning of the word. Because when you really understand the meaning of empathy, it's a beautiful healing thing.

Kristi Gaultiere: And, Jennifer, thanks for asking for our definition. We define empathy as seeking to understand someone's emotions, their thoughts, and their experiences. And this helps them know they're deeply loved by God. So it's not pity and it's not sympathy. There are different things where we get confusion around what empathy really is.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think too, y'all, in this -- at least in America, kind of the climate of the polarization, we feel like it is tolerance -- inappropriate tolerance to try to understand someone's viewpoint. And I don't see that in Scripture, and so that's -- even though you mentioned, Bill, that the Bible, maybe in older translations especially, doesn't use the word "empathy," let's still talk about what the Bible does say about empathy. And I'd like to know, our just and kind God, is he empathetic?

Kristi Gaultiere: Well, that's so important. The word "compassion" is used 117 times in the Bible. We have a list of over 100 empathy Scriptures we've included in our book "Deeply Loved."

But most importantly, I love your question about is God a God who has empathy? And we looked to Jesus and we thought, the incarnation is God's empathy, that God himself would become human, would enter a human body, who would -- the kenosis, the humility to experience every emotion we experience, every trial, every temptation, every suffering, that he would identify with us personally. And we even in the book identify, through a Bible study that we did in the Gospels, 39 emotions that Jesus --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow.

Kristi Gaultiere: -- experienced.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow. Well, you're right, the incarnation, it is like the ultimate empathy. It's God saying, I see you, I understand you. I have walked with you, I have walked as you. And I think sometimes we hoard our own kindness toward others, that we have received from God, because -- we don't mean to, but we don't realize.

But then there's sometimes that we're like -- it's easy to be empathetic, you know. If you see someone with a visible issue, sometimes it's easier to be empathetic to that person, right? But then there's ourselves, you know, and it's not so much. And so I'm curious what your opinion is about self-empathy. Like, is it important? Is it biblical? Tell us about that.

Bill Gaultiere: Yeah. Well, drawing on our Jesus-centered psychology, we do teach the concept of self-empathy, but it might not mean what you who are listening immediately think with that. We don't mean, like, hugging yourself or just saying nice things to yourself or relying on yourself to feel good about yourself. That might be how our culture would think of self-empathy. The way we define self-empathy is agreeing with God's empathy.

And so the point here is that if we don't agree with the grace, the compassion, the unconditional love, the empathy that God provides for us, then it doesn't reach us. And so in the Bible that's called faith. We need to have faith. We need to put our faith in God. But there is a part of that in the psychology of it that I need to join with that. And so that's why Jesus says, you know, love your neighbor as yourself. In other words, if I'm loving the God who loves me, as God's love gets in me, then I have love to give to others. So that's how we're talking about self-empathy, internalizing the empathy that Jesus Christ has for us.

Kristi Gaultiere: Let me illustrate this in our marriage, Jennifer. Early in our marriage, Bill would listen to me with empathy, but I would spoil it because inside I was just feeling shame, and I couldn't receive his love, his grace, his empathy for me and what I was feeling because I didn't agree with that. I was judging myself. And we do the same thing with God.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I think we do. You know what I was thinking as y'all both explain that, it takes humility to really receive and internalize the love and acceptance of God. And the grace. Because sometimes we just keep earning his approval and his kindness, and it has already been given to us in Christ. Man, that's hard.

So what happens, then, if we don't grasp this? How does a lack of self-empathy impact our emotional and our spiritual health?

Bill Gaultiere: Well, we are prone to get dominated by, like, self-judging, self-criticism, putting expectations on ourself or relying on coping mechanisms to get by, whether it's drinking too much or pleasing people or overworking. Because what's happening is we have these unconscious resistances to grace, to unconditional love, and empathy is a component of love and grace.

And so we have to become more self-aware of these internal resistances. Even as I'm seeking help from my pastor or my friend or my spiritual director, there is likely a part of me that is being self-critical, self-judging, self-rejecting, or trying so hard to please and perform that these things are filtering out the unconditional love of God that's coming to me through the listening of my friend.

Kristi Gaultiere: And this affects our relationship with God and with other people as we try to be strong and deny our emotions and our needs. We also end up settling for shallow relationships because we're not being emotionally honest. We're keeping others at a safe distance, and even God himself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Okay, that hits so close to home. I think we've all been through seasons, or maybe that's a real struggle. And so one of the things I would be curious about to both of you is -- so I'm a big self-talker. I talk to myself all the time. And there is one problem with that, is I believe almost everything I say to myself. And so I have had to become a high self-monitor and really monitor my vocabulary.

So I'm telling you this, because then I began to transition when I would get the most -- like you were explaining, Kristi, the shame or the frustration or judgment toward myself. I would have to stop and say, "Jennifer, you did your best. Good job," or whatever.

Bill Gaultiere: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So let's apply this. What could someone who might really struggle with the self-judgment, and they're trying to really learn this self-empathy that comes from their relationship with Christ, that is centered there, what are some things they can do? How can they catch themselves? How can they begin to awake to this so that they can begin to become aware and change it?

Bill Gaultiere: Well, sometimes the most accessible way is to find someone safe to talk to or to journal out a prayer to the Lord. Because when we receive empathy from God and it becomes very tangible when it's God through a person or one of the many empathy Scriptures that we draw on in "Deeply Loved," this makes empathy tangible and so then I can see the contrast between what God's Word is saying or how my friend is listening to me with empathy with what's going on in my own self-talk.

And we all have self-talk. Most of us aren't as aware of it as you are, Jennifer, because you've done some work in your discipleship to Jesus which includes self-awareness. So by becoming aware of the things that we are saying to ourself or thinking about ourself, when that gets into the light, then we can see where we might be off track with what the Bible teaches and says. And the Bible is full of grace for us. Even for our sin, there's forgiveness for our sin.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Yes. Well, and Jesus took our judgment, and so -- thank you, Lord. That's good. That's super good.

Okay. So let's -- we're talking about your book. I want to center in on it right now, because one thing that is interesting is you blend both biblical and psychological approaches to empathy. So tell us why we need both of those to thrive.

Kristi Gaultiere: Well, all truth is God's truth, and the Bible is God's truth. But not all of God's truth is in the Bible, like the chemistry tables, for example. And so there is a lot of truth we can understand through the study of human behavior, which is what the study of psychology is.

And it's really why Bill and I got our doctorates in psychology, was because the Lord really drew us and called us to that for ministry, to understand the human soul and to understand our relationship with God and where we get broken down and where these defense mechanisms get in the way.

And really, God's desire for us is that we would be holy. But that includes us being whole emotionally, spiritually, relationally, and in every way an integration -- you know, Jesus came and saved our soul, and that includes our body, our emotions, our relationships, as well as our thinking, our mental capacity, and our heart most importantly.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and when you think about it, I mean, this is why God put us all in the body of Christ. This is where he has gifted you and strengthened you to help unclutter and clear up some of the things that -- though they are in Scripture, a person may not be able to really deal with and apply it until they figure out some of the other stuff. So it is beautiful when you say we are integrated in our own bodies, you know, body, soul, and spirit. We're integrated as the body of Christ too. Oh, man, I love that.

And, you know, your book "Deeply Loved" is a really good start for someone to help expose maybe I do need to talk to a trusted brother or sister in Christ. Maybe I do need to go to a biblical counselor or a psychologist who is a believer in Christ to get help. It's just baby steps one step at a time.

But I want us to go to something super practical that we can actually walk through. Okay? Because in your book you teach the four A's of empathy. Like, I love a good acrostic, an acronym, a formula. So unpack these four A's for us so we can understand kind of what you're talking about the four A's of empathy are.

Bill Gaultiere: This is a basic approach to our conversations with the Lord or with a friend or -- like, in Soul Shepherding we train spiritual directors. We have a certificate program, and this is one of the tools that we teach them. We all need to receive empathy. We say empathy is oxygen for the soul. So the four A's make this practical.

And so the first A is to ask. So you ask someone, you know, "How are you feeling?" Or you can ask your own self or you can pray this way and you talk to God about how you're feeling. Jesus said you have not because you ask not. He teaches us, ask and keep asking, seek and keep seeking, knock and keep knocking. And so we need to be persistent in asking. And certainly in our love for our brother and sister, to notice them and to be curious and to ask, you know, "How are you doing?" Good questions are essential for empathy.

And the second A is attuning to emotions. And this is really the heart of empathy, is paying attention to how people feel, you know. We don't say, "How do you think?" we say, "How do you feel?" because the feelings get -- it's more personal. It's warmer. It gets more deeper. So we like to say emotions are like the portal to the whole soul, the whole being. And so it just opens up. So as we're listening to someone with empathy, we're asking questions to -- you know, "Well, tell me more about that." "Well, it seems that you are feeling discouraged." So we're reflecting back, we're mirroring back what they seem to feel. And this is what the Lord does for us.

We have ten different empathy practices that we teach that make this real practical, in addition to the 4 A's. And so in "Deeply Loved," one of those empathy practices we call empathy prayer, which is a journaling practice. But it really features this attuning to emotions in prayer by understanding how the Lord sees you in your body, in your personality, in your self-talk, in the emotions that you're feeling and these kinds of things, all these different aspects of us. But the emotions is really the heart of it. So attuning to emotions is that second A.

The third A is acknowledging the significance of the experience or validating the emotions. Because the things that we go through in life, particularly when we're distressed or troubled, they feel big to us and we tend to feel alone with it. So a really good empathetic listener will see the magnitude of what somebody is going through and then use some words to say, "Well, this is really difficult for you," or, "I can see this is very painful." And really good empathy goes just a little below the surface of what somebody is feeling. We don't go way, way deep, because that would overwhelm people, but just a little deeper. And we use fresh words to help engage people with their experience. We're not just parroting back what they're saying, we're listening for what's a little below the surface.

And then the fourth A is affirming the strengths. And so this is validating someone's courage to be vulnerable, or their perseverance. You know, faith in the Bible mostly is perseverance. So we think of faith as, like, the gift of faith to believe for a miracle, and that's beautiful. But normally faith, like in Hebrews 11:12, it's enduring. And it takes perseverance to endure some of the difficult things that we struggle with in our relationships and in our life emotionally. And so when someone's being vulnerable, we want to really affirm that faith that they're expressing. Like in Job, God honors Job's faith, even though sometimes Job is saying some really negative things there. But he's being so honest with God about how he's feeling, what he's experiencing, and he's respecting and trusting God in that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So there's so much about this. By the way, I was a psych major, so you're pushing every little happy button I have right now. I'm loving this so much.

But I'm mindful. And I'm mindful of who's listening. And there's some to-do listeners out there, they're like, okay, I just got the 4 A's, this is what I'm going to do. But I'm also mindful that there are some listeners out there who you are exposing by this -- we are exposing by this conversation a wound. And so this is going to be our last question. And you mentioned the word Soul Shepherding.

I would love for both of you, just kind of shepherd the soul who is listening right now and they're thinking, nobody ever asked me. Nobody ever acknowledged my pain. Nobody ever affirmed my strength. Nobody -- you know, I grew up with no empathy in my home, and I'm in Christ. But I just -- this thing, I feel like a roadblock. How does that person get unblocked in this empathy area because they relied so heavily on not receiving it? Which is worthy as a child or as they were growing up. How do they get past that road block toward receiving empathy from God and giving it to others?

Kristi Gaultiere: Thank you, Jennifer, for your empathy for that listener. And I join you with that because that's my story. I was born into a family of thinkers, strong Christians who -- my mom would tell me, when I had an emotion, "Kristi, snap out of it." And I began to treat myself the way I was treated. As a little girl, when I showed emotions, I was abandoned. I was put in my room. I was left until I could snap out of it and come back into relationship. And so I learned to hide my emotions, my true self from God and from other people. And it didn't get me very far.

I even got caught up in cycles of co-dependency as I would learn to be empathetic and to be there for other people, giving them what I wished I definitely desperately needed and could receive, but didn't know a safe context to do that. I didn't learn to trust anybody with my emotions. And so my emotions were internalized, which results in all kinds of bodily sicknesses or in anger eruptions or in anxiety because I'm internalizing so much stress in my body.

And so it was such a grace that as I ran into these issues and these problems, God called me to study psychology, which required me, as I was getting my doctorate, to receive counseling. And as I did that -- which I probably wouldn't have humbled myself to do if it wasn't a requirement of me -- I was amazed the way somebody could hold that space and mirror God's presence and love to me and listen to me, seeking to understand and to know me and show me that God had the same disposition for me, that God actually saw me and wanted to know me, just like we see in the Old Testament he did for Hagar, and she named God the God Who Sees Me.

And as we begin to receive this empathy from ambassadors of Christ, from shepherds after his own heart, we begin to be able to receive God's love and grace, and it builds intimacy with Jesus himself for us as we receive and we agree with that empathy.

We write about three-way empathy. We need to experience empathy of God through human people. God says it's not good for us to be alone. He created us in his image as relational beings. And so we need often people to mediate God's love to us in the form of empathy.

You know, in our world we don't have very many safe places. The neurological studies and brain studies show that if I were to be vulnerable with you and tell you about some grief that I'm going through right now, and if you didn't respond with empathy for my grief, the shame centers in my brain would light up. And I would close up and I would not want to be vulnerable with you anymore and I would try to go to surface levels, which is why so often our relationships don't go very deep in Christ and discipleship. Or we get just stuck in our head in a believe/do type of Christianity.

And one of the things we learned from our mentor Dallas and Jane Willard, who have been great mentors and personal friends of ours, is that if our discipleship to Jesus doesn't get personal and concrete, it doesn't change us much. And we found that to be really true.

And so when we are risking in relationship with a safe person, and especially if we have that context -- and this is why we train spiritual directors at Soul Shepherding and why we have a staff of 50 spiritual directors who you can meet with on Zoom at any time, because we need a context where we know it's going to be safe, it's going to be confidential, I'm not going to be hurt, and somebody who's going to be listening to me and joining Jesus' empathy for me and praying for me and listening to the Holy Spirit as they listen to me and cooperating with God's love and action in my life.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, people, did you hear that? This was striking to me. We treat ourselves the way we were treated.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: So we don't need to hide from God or people. Every issue you face, face it with truth and grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Exactly. And I also -- I got to say this. I liked how they explained that we start with receiving the empathy from others who love Jesus and then we will learn how to receive that same empathy from God. I mean, we need each other, people.

Oh, yeah, and one more thing also. This, KC, blew me away. That the shame centers in our brain light up when we don't receive empathy. Like, that is startling.

KC Wright: Yeah. I'm sure we've barely scratched the surface here, and we need to go deeper. So you can get their book. I am. You can actually enter to win one right now on Jennifer's Instagram by simply going to @jennrothschild on Instagram. Or you can go to the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/377. Either way, you can get the book at the Show Notes as well. We'll have a link there. Plus you can read the full transcript. I love the focus on empathy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, I know. There is so much here. And by the way, they mentioned their ministry, Soul Shepherding. We will also have a link there to Shoul Separding- -- it's easy for you to hear. Okay, let me try to say that again. Soulshepherding.com. That way you'll remember it. But we will -- if you don't find it yourself, soulshepherding.com, we'll have a link to that website, their ministry, also on the Show Notes so that we can get you connected, you know, with their spiritual directing or whatever it is that you might need.

KC Wright: Yes. There's so much here. And you need to share this one with your people.

And by the way, don't forget, if you haven't left a review yet -- let's say you've been a long-time listener. Well, feel the podcast hug.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: But if you haven't left a review, would you mind just taking a moment? Because each review enables us to reach one more heart for Jesus. Do that today. Your reviews really do make a huge difference.

All right. I've got a lot to process, so we're going to get --

Jennifer Rothschild: Me too.

KC Wright: -- this one done today. Remember, you can show yourself empathy, you can give others empathy, you can receive empathy from Jesus because you can do all things through Christ who supernaturally gives you strength. I know I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Care for Others Without Burning Out? With Shaunti Feldhahn [Episode 376]

Shaunti Feldhahn: For years, way before the pandemic, that mental health issues had been rising. And, you know, sort of there's been a scourge of anxiety and depression and trauma and addiction and marriage issues and all these things that we've always dealt with, but the numbers have been getting more and more, and at the same time the number of pastors and counselors has been staying basically the same.

And so ultimately to some degree, there's a bit of a supply and demand problem, especially because over the last, like, 40 or 50 years we've become more uncomfortable with, like, lay people or pastors addressing some of these mental and emotional health issues.

Jennifer Rothschild: People are hurting today at a scale that we have never seen before. They are dealing with an onslaught of issues like anxiety or grief or mental health issues or family troubles, and even hopelessness.

And here's the thing, pastors and counselors, they can't see everybody in need. But there is a solution. We have an incredible opportunity to bring healing to the hurting, take the load off of the pastor and the counselor, and grow healthy church communities of care. And we can do it all without burning out.

So today, author and social researcher Shaunti Feldhahn is back on the 4:13, and she's got a brilliant way to care for others. You can care for others, along with those in your church, and you can do it with empathy, wisdom, grace, and, of course, like I already said, without burning out. So don't miss this chance for your church and you to become a place where people don't just hear about hope; they experience it.

KC, it's time.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends, Jennifer here. Just two friends and one topic and zero stress. And our goal, as you know, is to help you live the "I Can" life, to make you know through Christ and his Scripture and his truth and his spirit, that whatever you face or however you feel, you can do it through Christ's power.

So thankful for that truth. Because even with what we're going to talk about today, there's so many needs that we see and so many needs that we have, to know that it is Christ's power within us gives us all we need.

Shaunti's been on the show before, and we love Shaunti. She's a friend of mine. I've known her for many years. We shared the same publisher back in the day. And she's just a wise, gentle soul. And, you know, she, with social research, points out problems. But she also gives solutions, and that makes me happy.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But as I was thinking about what we're talking about, KC, one of the things that helps me with my mental health is laughing. Like, it is so therapeutic. So a few weeks ago I said to Phil -- I was -- okay, let me put it this way.

KC Wright: Okay, okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love Nate Bargatze.

KC Wright: Oh, yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh, I love him.

KC Wright: You know he's coming to Springfield.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I know.

KC Wright: Okay, okay. Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so I was looking to buy tickets. So we got tickets. We're going in February to see him.

KC Wright: Yeah, you are.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I'm so excited. And his tour is called Big Dumb Eyes, and I'm like, I can relate. And so I love him. He makes me laugh. And he's clean, y'all. He's so clean.

Okay. So as I was looking for Nate, though, a few weeks ago, something on Google came up about Leanne Morgan. Now, I have got to tell you, I laugh so hard at Leanne Morgan.

KC Wright: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And, you know, she even did a Netflix sitcom series.

KC Wright: I binge watched all of them.

Jennifer Rothschild: I did too.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I laughed so hard.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Even Phil laughed. And sometimes he's very reserved at his laughter. I mean, it was hilarious. So when I saw that she was going to be four hours away from us, I said, "Phil, let's go." Okay, this was on a Thursday --

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- her show was on a Friday.

KC Wright: No.

Jennifer Rothschild: I said, "Let's take the Barbie camper and let's just go." And he was like, "But there's a football game on." And I said, "And?" "Let's go," he said. I said, "You could tape football, but we can't see Leanne live." Okay, we went, KC.

KC Wright: Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was spontaneous, it was fun. But I am telling you, that woman made me laugh so hard.

KC Wright: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: She is so funny, and she's so clean, and she's so dear. And you know what I loved about her? She just loved the audience.

KC Wright: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: You could tell she loves the audience.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do believe she loves the Lord too, just some of the things that she said.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: But she is just divine. So, Leanne, I know that you're probably never going to listen to the 4:13. But if someone who knows you and loves you does, that you, that someone, you better tell Leanne that I love her and I want to be her BFF. Okay? Because she makes me laugh.

KC Wright: Oh, same.

Jennifer Rothschild: But she doesn't even have to be funny if we go to coffee. Like, she could just be boring and I'm okay with it.

KC Wright: She's not even trying. It's just who she is.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's just her.

KC Wright: It's how she's wired. And the whole world is cheering her on because we're all seeing her dream be fulfilled.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's so precious.

KC Wright: But she'll talk about her past, and she's -- but then she'll say, "But I've been washed in the blood."

Jennifer Rothschild: She does. She is redeemed.

KC Wright: She's redeemed from her past, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's beautiful. I love her. I love her. But anyway, so --

KC Wright: We're big fans.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- laughing just really is therapeutic to me. And, I mean, isn't that what Proverbs says? A merry heart is what? Good medicine.

KC Wright: And you're a little joy bomb yourself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I try.

KC Wright: I sit in those Fresh Grounded Faith conferences and I'm laughing hard at you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, life is better when you laugh. Life is so much better. In fact, we're doing a tour in the spring. And if you guys want to know more about that, please follow me on socials or sign up for my Java with Jennifer email. You'll see it on my website at jenniferrothschild.com, or it'll be there in the transcript.

But we're doing a tour in the spring where we're going to different cities, and it's going to be based on heaven. But the whole idea is to step into the joy of heaven.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so literally I have two goals: you laugh and you learn. That's it. Those are our two goals. It's going to be a great night. And we'll be all over the southeast, so check us out.

Anyway, I think that's a good way to care for our souls, and it also equips us and helps us just to be able to care for others well. And that's what we're going to talk about, but in a very practical way. So if you are a caregiver, don't worry, this is going to give you hope if you're tired. If you feel like you can't do one more thing or you're going to burn out, don't worry, this is going to give you hope. You're going to love this. So let's introduce Shaunti.

KC Wright: Shaunti Feldhahn is a best-selling author, popular speaker, and social researcher known for her ground-breaking work to help people flourish in life, faith, and leadership and relationships. Her research-based books such as "The Good News About Marriage," "For Women Only," "For Men Only," and a book called "Find Rest" are filled with surprising and practical insights, selling more than 3 million copies in 25 languages. She and her husband, Jeff, are some of our favorites around here at the 4:13. So let's listen in.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, Shaunti, I'm glad -- we finally had to make ourselves stop talking so that we could talk to our 4:13ers --

Shaunti Feldhahn: I know. I know.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because we are friends. And y'all, I -- well, I mentioned this in the intro earlier, but I've known Shaunti for -- what do you think, Shaunti, 20-ish years?

Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, more than 20 years, probably, yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. We had the same publisher early on and -- anyway, it's been a gift. It's been a gift to have a friendship with you and Jeff. And I just am grateful we get to talk again with all my friends. I love sharing some of my favorite people with my other favorite people.

So we're going to dive in because you have a new book, "When Hurting People Come To Church." Ooh, what a title.

So in your book you describe that there is this growing mental health crisis. And lots of us listening right now, we can relate, because we know the struggle of, like, trying to find help for someone we love. And then sometimes we are just like -- we feel powerless, we don't know where to start, or, if we do find a counselor, we're like, oh, my gosh, it's going to take eight months to get them in, or they're not taking clients. You know what I mean? It's such a crisis.

So I'm curious if -- in your research and observation, if you know why this is such a crisis today. Why is it such an issue?

Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, this is going to really oversimplify something, but really it boils down to the fact that for years, way before the pandemic, that mental health issues had been rising. And, you know, sort of there's been a scourge of anxiety and depression and trauma and addiction and marriage issues and all these things that we've always dealt with, but the numbers have been getting more and more, and at the same time the number of pastors and counselors has been staying basically the same.

And so ultimately, to some degree, there's a bit of a supply and demand problem, especially because over the last, like, 40 or 50 years, we've become more uncomfortable with, like, lay people or pastors addressing some of these mental and emotional health issues. And so it's like, okay, you know, the best thing I can do for my friend is to refer out, right? It's to find a counselor. And yet, as I mentioned, there just aren't enough counselors.

There's a portal you can actually go on on one of the government websites and say, like, how many psychiatrists do we have compared to the demand, or how many counselors? And right now we have 109,000 fewer counselors than we need today, and that number is only going to increase to, like, 250,000 in the next ten years.

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Shaunti Feldhahn: So there is really, truly just a lot of hurting people. And many people want to help, many counselors, many pastors, there just aren't enough.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah. Well, to me, there's a couple things too. One, a lot of times insurance doesn't cover counseling, and so people are --

Shaunti Feldhahn: Or they don't take insurance.

Jennifer Rothschild: Or they don't take insurance, right. So it's very hard to justify when you think, okay, I'll just figure it out myself. So I think the cost is an issue.

But I think also then -- like when you said, you know, we maybe as non-professionals, we get a little shy because we're like, well, I don't want to say the wrong thing or --

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: And so -- and there is a degree. There's a reason it is a profession, because there does need to be professional training.

But I'm curious with the role of the church. Okay? Because lots of us in this conversation, we go to church faithfully. And you say that the church has a vital role in responding to this mental health crisis. So I would love for you to kind of paint a picture, like, what is the church doing now? How are we responding right now to this crisis? And then let's talk about how we could maybe get better and more comfortable at this.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah. So we ended up doing a big national study of pastors. I know that's a huge shock to you, Jennifer, that I did a big research study on this. But my co-author, Dr. Jim Sells, who's a clinical psychologist, he's a professor at Regent University and is the leader of this initiative that I want to explain in a minute called The Church Cares.

But we wrote this book together and did this research together and interviewed and surveyed more than 2,000 pastors of all streams of the church. So, like, I really wanted to cast a very, very wide net, you know, Protestant and Catholic and black churches and white churches and charismatic churches and -- you know, just the whole spectrum.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shaunti Feldhahn: And what we found is that 88% of pastors think that if there is a psychological issue that comes to them, their primary role is to find a good counselor. And that's -- like I said, that's great. Like, Jim, my co-author on this, he's a clinical psychologist. He's trained these Christian counselors for 30 years. But like we were saying, there's just not enough.

And so what we're trying to do is to cast a vision to say, I wonder if it's both/and. I wonder if we say, you know what, the folks who need the most help, who need that specialized care, absolutely. If you have -- for example, probably many of your listeners have either gone through something like postpartum depression or know someone who has, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Yeah.

Shaunti Feldhahn: So when you have someone who is dealing with this postpartum depression and can't get out of bed -- and maybe the husband is worried about the baby, right? Like, oh, my word, you need a specialist. You need to find somebody who can provide some skills and sort of see, like, oh, my goodness, what do we do?

But what if it's not like a really significant situation like that that requires specialized care? What if it's your mom died? Of course, you're sad, your mom died.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. You've got grief. You're dealing with grief.

Shaunti Feldhahn: You've got --exactly. And you need somebody to go to coffee with. And maybe if it's gotten complex, sure, maybe you do need some additional help.

But what would happen if the church built a system where in addition to referring somebody out to a counselor, where it might take weeks to get help, that we weren't scared of that? What happens if in addition we say, you know what -- to the woman who has significant postpartum depression, you know, there's a group of people who have been trained in just basic listening inside the church, and I happen to know that one of those women had postpartum depression herself, and she would love to have coffee with you.

Jennifer Rothschild: See, I love this because -- and I'm going to ask you -- I want you to explain this Cares Initiative also, Church Cares Initiative.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because, Shaunti, I'm reminded, when you say all this, Phil and I, early in our marriage, maybe we were three years in, and we were really stuck. It was not pretty. It was not good. And we went to a counselor. And I'll never forget Larry, the trained counselor, saying to me, "I wouldn't have a job if the church were trained to do theirs." And that's what he's talking about. Because we were not in a catastrophic situation. We just needed a wiser adult, another married person, to kind of say, okay, let's deal with y'all's selfishness. Because that was our root problem, you know.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yep.

Jennifer Rothschild: But the point is, the church is equipped because we have the Holy Spirit. So let's move. I want to hear about this care strategy and the Church Cares Initiative. So explain what it is and tell us how it could help us.

Shaunti Feldhahn: So think of this idea of as you get more need for specialization, you pursue more specialization, right? Like, the most significant issues get referred to the pastor, and the pastor probably refers them to the counselor the way that they've been doing. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Shaunti Feldhahn: But today, all of the issues get referred to the pastor and the counselor. Any issue in the church, the pastor is trying to meet all those needs, and they can't, so they refer out to the counselors, who can't meet all those needs either.

And so what would happen if we said let's coordinate this by levels sort of, and that we had somebody who sort of stood in the middle of that as a -- we call that person -- whatever their title is, whoever they are, volunteer, staff member, whatever, we call them just a coordinator who can receive those issues that come in. And, you know, the husband of the woman with the postpartum depression reaches out, talks to the coordinator, and she goes, yes, let's get you in to see the pastor, and we're going to refer you to a professional.

But the woman who has the grief talks to the coordinator, and the coordinator says, you know, I have somebody who's been trained in listening who would just love to walk alongside you. And, yeah, if it -- if it looks like you need more care, absolutely. But truly, most people, once they actually understand the situation, it's kind of like what you were talking about with you and Phil, right? It's the -- many of these people, what they really want and really need isn't the more specialized, you know, the higher-end skillset development. They just need a friend. They need somebody to walk alongside. And so that's the vision.

Because one of the things that we don't realize, we don't really grapple with, is that the professionals, they're not allowed to walk alongside. Like, if you're seeing a professional licensed counselor, that person may deeply care about you. If that's a Christian counselor, they are working in the power of the Holy Spirit, they are trying to help, but they cannot come to your house for dinner on Thursday.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Shaunti Feldhahn: They will lose their license. Whereas, the church better come to your house for dinner on Thursday. We want friends. And imagine you could get those marriage mentors who invite you over for dinner. That can be more valuable in some cases than a counselor.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Well, and I think what you're saying, too, is there's wisdom, Holy Spirit wisdom, and some genuine guidelines with what you all are creating here.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which is helpful because that does help reduce our overwhelm. So as I'm hearing this, I'm thinking, oh, what a beautiful picture this would be. So I'd like to know that. So let's say that a church has -- they're applying this Church Cares Initiative. So what would it look like if the church really embraced this vision? What would the church look like?

Shaunti Feldhahn: So picture this. Like, I love this. This is the church returning to being the church and not being afraid of -- that we've professionalized the care of distress and just coming alongside.

So imagine, for example, what it would look like if any Sunday morning you had -- for example, somebody comes up to the pastor. Like, I was just interviewing a pastor a couple of weeks ago, and he said, "A woman came up to me on Sunday morning after I preached, and I said something about sexual abuse in my message. And she had tears on her cheeks and she said, 'Pastor, I dealt with sexual abuse as a child, and it's affecting everything in my life. It's affecting my marriage, my mental health. Like, I don't know what to do.'"

And the pastor said, "I just felt so helpless, like, okay, come see me." Because she was like, "Can I come see you?" And he said, "Absolutely." But he's like, "In my head, I know I'm just going to refer her to a counselor."

And I said, Okay, now picture something slightly different, but very different. Picture that this dear woman comes up to you and you're able to say, Oh, my goodness, I am so sorry that you went through that. I am so sorry that that has impacted you. You know what? Yes, absolutely I'm willing to talk to you. It's going to be a few weeks because, you know, I've got so many people on the schedule. But in the meantime, I'm going to have Bonnie call you tomorrow. Bonnie is our care coordinator. And she is going to hear your story, she's going to listen and she's going to see, can we find somebody to walk alongside you?

As a matter of fact, we have a group of trained listeners, people who've just gone through just a little bit of extra training on what does it mean to listen well. And I think Bonnie will be able to tell you, I think, one or two of the women have this same kind of story and want to walk alongside, so you'll get that call tomorrow.

And then these women step up -- or men, if it's a guy -- and they step up. And there are people who are like, I'm not a counselor, but I know how to care. And imagine what the church would look like if all of us say, You know what? All of us have a bit of that responsibility. Maybe -- you know, what we're proposing and what the Church Cares Initiative is officially doing is to help churches build a layer of lay care that -- where people are just trained in basic, basic listening.

But all of us, even if we don't have that training, all of us have the responsibility to say, Oh, my goodness, this couple is struggling. You know what? Maybe they get referred to a counselor, but maybe they need to come over for dinner on Thursday night. And imagine the difference that this would make to the body of Christ and to our communities to have the church really, truly be a light to the world in this very needy area.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think sometimes we hesitate with those things because we're like, It's messy. I don't know what to do or say. And what you're saying is -- I've heard you say it so many times -- we're listening. And so you have written actually in your book that you don't need a counseling license to love people well.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So is that what you're talking about, that it starts with listening and just allowing yourself to be in someone's life? What does that look like?

Shaunti Feldhahn: It does. One of the things that all of us get a little squirrely about is like, I don't know what to say.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Right? Well, you know what? One of the things that we found and that many studies have found over the years is it's not what you say, it's what you listen to that matters.

It's really interesting, my co-author, Jim, he says -- and I love this. He said, you know, the best counselor -- and I'm using "counselor" loosely, right? "The best counselor I've ever known" -- this is his words -- "was my grandmother, who lived in the suburbs of Chicago. She had an eighth-grade education, a coffee pot, a kitchen table, and a Bible." And she counseled so many people, but it wasn't counseling the way we think of it. It's listening. It's saying, "I'm so sorry." It's being able to enter into someone's pain and to know that you don't have to have all the answers. I mean, because we don't. We're not going to.

Jennifer Rothschild: We don't. And only one does, and that's Christ.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Exactly.

Jennifer Rothschild: And he's given us his wisdom.

You know, Shaunti, what you're describing too, to me, is living out the one another's in the New Testament, you know?

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: We're bearing one another's burdens. I mean, that's just -- you're right, we would look like the church is supposed to look.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Look like -- well, and so many of us try.

Jennifer Rothschild: We want to, yes.

Shaunti Feldhahn: But there is -- we want to, yes. It's just so many of us feel we don't have the -- we need permission, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Shaunti Feldhahn: And I love -- I actually tell this story in the book because it cracked me up...

Our pastor in graduate school -- I still remember him saying this. He did church services on campus in graduate school, so there wasn't a church building, right? They had a little office, held services on campus. And he said -- this was in Massachusetts. And he said the Massachusetts tax assessment group sent a tax assessor to the address for the church. He walked in, and it was the office -- right? -- this little tiny staff office.

And he goes to the pastor very suspicious and he says, "Where's the church?" Like, 'cause, you know, they're trying to check and see, are you trying to scam the -- you know, is this really a real church? He goes, "Where's the church?" And the pastor said, "I was legitimately confused for a minute." And he said -- the pastor said, "Well, some of them are at work and some of them are at school." And he's like, "The guy was asking about a building," and he's like, "I was thinking, where's the church? Where's the people?"

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow.

Shaunti Feldhahn: And that's us. We are the church. We are the body of Christ. And all of us have to grapple with this responsibility, but this opportunity that God has handed us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. It's a privilege to be Christ to someone.

And I was a psych major, so, of course, this really thrills me.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, no kidding?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Shaunti Feldhahn: I didn't know that. That's awesome.

Jennifer Rothschild: So, you know, one of the most effective styles of counseling is called the Rogerian, the active listening. And that's really -- people just need to know they're heard and there's a safe place for them to lay their burdens.

And so that brings me to this because we're talking about helping the hurting. But I have a feeling there's somebody listening right now and this person is really hurting. She or he is like, I can't help anybody right now because I am a train wreck myself. My heart is broken. So what do you want to say to their heart?

Shaunti Feldhahn: So the key for everybody to know, no matter where you are, is that there is hope and there is help for you. For example, if you're in crisis -- I love the fact that our nation has a crisis hotline. You can literally call 988 on any phone and get to a crisis hotline. There's all sorts of these opportunities depending on what your issue is.

Actually, we have those resources on thechurchcares.com, which is the site that we're using to try to help equip the body of Christ in all these different ways with this basic training and these resources for people.

But if you are in that spot, just be aware that there is that hope and help for you. And our hope is that your local church, if you approach them and if you say, "I need somebody to walk alongside me," that they will catch that vision as well.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and I will have a link, by the way, to the website. Mention it one more time, even though we will have a link to it on the Show Notes. What is your website again?

Shaunti Feldhahn: The website for this initiative is thechurchcares.com.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, good. And we will have a link to it. But it is important what Shaunti is saying, is you just don't stay in your isolation. Jesus cares and he's going to provide someone who cares also, whether it's on the crisis hotline, through the website, in your local church. But you just be brave and you reach out. Good stuff, Shaunti.

Okay. Y'all see why I love her so much? But we have to get to the last question, so here we go, Shaunti.

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. What's the last question?

Jennifer Rothschild: How can the average person who is sitting in the pew every Sunday -- you know, they're not a pastor, they're not a staff member, and they're very inspired by what they've heard here. How can they start caring for others without burning out or getting totally overwhelmed?

Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes, of course, because that's something we all have to care about. So here's what I would suggest. If this is resonating with you, what we most need is for people to come alongside the pastor, come alongside the church, and say, I think it's important for us to get a few people trained in, like, just basic listening.

"Hey, Pastor, I'm not suggesting you do this," because every pastor is overwhelmed and they can't do one more thing. But if you feel like maybe the Holy Spirit is kind of knocking on you to say maybe I should explore this, to ask the pastor, "Would you be willing for me to explore this and to see what it might take for our church to step in just to do a basic layer of lay care and lay listening in these cases?"

And that's what the book is for, that's what the churchcares.com is for, is to equip you. And that's the hope, is that people will go, oh, my word, I feel like this is what I'm built for, because it probably is.

KC Wright: I'm just saying, as a pastor I really resonated with what she just said. What we most need is people to come alongside the pastor and say, Hey, I'll help. It's not just your job.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

KC Wright: I got two hands and two feet.

She talked about the care strategy and the Church Cares Initiative. We will have links to these at the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/376. And we really want you to check this out. Let's help, as the family of God, learn to listen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Right?

Okay, so explore this. You got a lot of information today and so we want you to pray about this. Step in. And Shaunti's book is going to help you understand the crisis, but more importantly, the doable solution. So go to the Show Notes, as KC said, at 413podcast.com/376 and share this with your pastor, or maybe someone on your church staff, and tell them, I'm here. I'm willing to help with this.

KC Wright: And maybe you can win the book we're giving away so you can re-gift it to your pastor.

Jennifer Rothschild: There you go.

KC Wright: You can enter to win at J.R.'s Insta @jennrothschild, or you can buy a book, or several, and make this thing happen. All you need, you can find at the Show Notes now at 413podcast.com/376.

All right, enough for today. You can do this, our people, because you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

KC Wright: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: I'm excited about this Joy tour you're about to embark on talking about heaven, because the kingdom of God is made up of righteousness, peace, and joy --

Jennifer Rothschild: It is joy.

KC Wright: -- in the Holy Spirit. You can't talk about heaven without talking about joy.

Jennifer Rothschild: Exactly. We want to live heaven now. I think C.S. Lewis said, "Joy is the serious business of heaven."

KC Wright: Love it.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Be More Gentle With Myself? With Micah E. Davis [Episode 375]

Micah Davis: We come before God and we beg him to forgive us and we never really get to this place of accepting his forgiveness. Like, in the back of our mind there's this subtle doubt that says there is no way that you can be forgiven for what you did or I know God has to forgive me, but he doesn't really want to.

And that's the trap, right? We see God as this ruler of the cosmos who's separate, he's jaded, he's always upset with us because we can never get it right or never figure it out. We think, man, thank goodness for Jesus, because if it weren't for Jesus, God would hate us.

But, you know, here's the deal. God does not love us because Jesus died for us; Jesus died for us because God loves us.

Jennifer Rothschild: When the going gets tough or when you've been let down or when you've failed over and over, it is so easy to be way too hard on ourselves. Maybe it's hard to forgive yourself if you've blown it or forgive others if they have. But there is hope The Gospel shows us that you can show yourself grace. You can be gentle with yourself.

On today's 4:13, author and pastor Micah Davis invites us to release inner turmoil and find grace. You are going to get powerful spiritual truths about grace and forgiveness, coupled with four very practical actions that you can take. Okay, this is a good one. I'm a little bit excited about it because I loved this message. So, KC, let's get it going.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. Glad you're back with us again. And if you're a new friend, that was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy, and I'm Jennifer. And our goal is just to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living this "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13.

You know the drill if you've been with us before. It's two friends and one topic and zero stress. So if you've got any stress today, just let it go for a little bit because you're going to love this conversation. It's going to really deeply touch your spirit and minister to your soul, I guarantee it, because it did mine.

And, you know, Micah -- we're going to hear about him and from him in a minute. He's a pastor. And so some of the things he was saying I was really just resonating with, because my dad was a pastor and I'm in ministry. And, in fact, KC, I haven't told you this story yet, but recently -- like I told you, I'm getting older. The older I get, everything was last week. So I'll just say last week. It could have been two months ago. I can't remember.

But anyway, I had the privilege -- and it really was a privilege -- of speaking for this group of blind people. And they happened to have this national conference in our town.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So the group is called VIP Conduit, I believe, and they came from, like, New York and Tennessee and Florida and -- anyway, to here in Missouri for this conference. There were about 40 of them. And I did not know exactly what I was going to do, you know, because I wanted to kind of meet the group and see, you know, how to speak to them. And for those of you who are new friends, you may not know I'm blind, so obviously we have a lot in common.

So I get there and I -- as the woman is introducing me, somebody's computer is talking. Okay. Now, I have a computer called JAWS, and so everything -- I mean, I have a software called JAWS on my computer, and so everything talks really loud. And I'm hearing this computer going off and I'm like, okay, I'll just ignore it. Well, finally, the woman who's trying to introduce me, "Could someone turn off their laptop." Okay. And I'm like, "Yeah, hit control," because that'll make it stop talking.

Okay, so that's chattering the whole time. And all these blind people are used to this, right? The sighted people aren't as used to it. The blind people are. But still it was hilarious.

Okay. Well, then I start speaking, and I'm hearing people's iPhones. And everybody has on voiceover. So while I'm speaking, I hear voiceover going off on somebody's iPhone. They're texting. I'm hearing them, "Hey, Siri, tell George to not forget to take out the garbage." "Tell George to not forget to take out the garbage. Send it?" "Yes, send it." And I'm like -- the whole time --

KC Wright: Oh, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- like, this is going off all around -- it is cracking me up. I'm like, you be you, people. Like, you be you.

KC Wright: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was hilarious. So these people were -- not everybody, of course. But there were three or four of them. They were totally oblivious to how loud it was 'cause they're so used to it. And the community that was with them, okay -- but I'm just laughing thinking, wow, you people, you do you. I'm so used to being with sighted people, I try to behave. But, like, you do you.

KC Wright: Well, wasn't that distracting?

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it was.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And what was really funny is every time I would hear an iPhone go off, I would literally think, oh, my gosh, is my phone talking?

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Because it sounds like mine, but it wasn't.

Okay. So the funniest part. So we leave. Kenzie's with me. She took me to the speaking event. And, you know, we're just laughing about how, like, they're so loud and comfortable with it, with their technology. And she goes, "Okay, but" -- now that we get in the car, she goes, "Okay, but I'm going to tell you something. And I hope you think it's funny." I'm like, "Okay, what?" "Your shirt is on inside out."

I was like -- well, that's the most embarrassing thing that happened that I'm not embarrassed about because none of them could see it. I'm like, of all the speaking events for me to wear my shirt inside out, it was with a bunch of blind people who thought I was beautiful.

KC Wright: Oh.

Jennifer Rothschild: So it was -- I tell you the story because it was hilarious.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: To me, it was such a picture of grace.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It was just such a picture of grace all around. And so anyway, I hope they were blessed. But I was really blessed just at seeing their joy, their comfort with who they are. So it was really special. I was super grateful that I was invited.

And you know what? I think it's interesting, based on what we're about to talk about of being gentle with ourselves and showing grace to ourselves, that's what was happening in that room that night. It really was.

KC Wright: The picture of grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: It really was. So anyway, let's introduce Micah and get him going.

KC Wright: Micah Davis lives and writes inside the loop of Indianapolis with his wife, Rylei, and their Australian Kelpie, Leo. He serves as the pastor of teaching and Vision at The Sanctuary Church. He and his wife have a little one coming just in time for Christmas.

You will love this deep and gentle conversation, so let's get started with Micah and Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Micah, we're going to have to start with the hard stuff, okay? Because I think that's going to help us with this conversation, because you have gone through just some of the very worst pain imaginable. And I would be honored if you'd be willing to share with us some of your story.

Micah Davis: Sure. Well, Jennifer, first and foremost, thank you so much for having me. It's a gift to be with you.

But I grew up the son of two pastors -- so I'm a pastor's kid -- and my parents moved up to Indianapolis, Indiana, in 2003, with a dollar and a dream to plant a brand-new church in the Indianapolis area. And over the course of three years, we saw really a move of God. Started with 12 people in a little apartment community center, and over the course of three years it became a community of over 700 people, and it was just kind of rapid growth up and to the right. My dad sort of became, like, a little local celebrity. You know, this was pre-social media days.

And in 2005, he came home from preaching one day and told my mom that he didn't want to be married to her anymore, that he was leaving their marriage, he was leaving our family, he was leaving God. And he was having an affair with my mom's best friend, who was also our children's pastor at the time, and ended up kind of destroying our family, our church, and really destroying my life as I knew it. And that was really my first instance of really deep pain that I had to work through, and hurt and forgiveness.

So fast forward a few years, my parents --it's another story for another conversation. But my parents miraculously were able to reconcile their marriage. My dad ended up becoming broken, asking for forgiveness. My mom graciously gave him that over the course of many, many, many intense counseling sessions.

But at 13, another proverbial bomb was dropped in our family, where my dad found out at the age of about 35 that his father, my grandfather, was actually not his real father.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my goodness.

Micah Davis: It was a secret that had been concealed for his entire life that he was actually adopted when he was about two years old, and he didn't know who his real father was. And so this started kind of a long journey of trying to figure out how to navigate the web of lies that that had created. And it came out that my grandfather was engaged in a long string of affairs and a whole bunch of stuff. So a lot of hurt and pain there.

And then at 18, my family had moved down to Nashville, Tennessee. My dad had been, through a very long process, restored back into pastoral ministry, and my godfather had hired him as a pastor at their church, which was one of the fastest-growing churches in the country at the time. And in 2015, my godfather had an affair with his assistant --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my lands.

Micah Davis: -- and blew up that church. So kind of father figure after father figure after father figure.

And then at 25, kind of cherry on top, I came home to my parents one day, and my parents brought me out on the back porch. And in a very eerily familiar fashion, my mom was sitting there in tears. She had just found out, at age 50, that her father was not her real father.

And so just kind of the full circle scale of feeling hurt and wounded by father figures in my life that developed the crucible that would become this book of learning how to forgive people when you've been wounded very deeply.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, I don't even have words. Like, I knew a little bit. I didn't know all that. And that is -- that is enormous and that is heavy. And so, sadly, it well qualifies you to grapple with what forgiveness is and to be qualified to write a book.

And I got to say, I appreciate your stewardship of this pain, because it can bring freedom to others. And I know that's what part of this conversation is going to be today. So I appreciate your vulnerability and willingness to share that.

And I want to talk about forgiveness, because -- like, I'm already having trouble forgiving these people in your life and I don't even know them, right? So let's talk about this. You say in your book that forgiveness is not easy and it's not natural. So why is that? Why isn't it easier and why isn't it natural?

Micah Davis: Yeah. You know, I talk about forgiveness in the book as not a formula, but more of a crucible. I don't really know another better way to describe it. Forgiveness at its essence is costly. You know, it costs the perpetrator an unbelievable amount of humility to repent and to ask for forgiveness. But it also costs the offended and the wounded to extend an unreasonable amount of charity to cancel this very real relational debt that's present, right?

And I think what most of us fail to realize is that actually in withholding what we are to give, we actually miss out on receiving what we most need.

And forgiveness comes at a cost either way, right? To forgive costs us greatly. And I don't try to sidestep that or beat around the bush in this book, but I also say that to not forgive may end up costing us more. You know, forgiveness is a voluntary form of suffering, and I don't think we can deny or minimize that. But that's why I think forgiveness in any and every situation is possible, but it's more of a crucible than a formula. It's just -- it's painful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Well, when you describe it as a voluntary type of suffering, no wonder we avoid it. No wonder our flesh avoids it, because we're not prone to desire suffering.

Micah Davis: Sure.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think that's good, Micah, to give us that paradigm and that framework, because I think some people think that certain personalities can forgive easier or, you know, the lighter the debt, the easier the forgiveness. And what you're saying is no matter what, it's kind of against our natural fleshly disposition, it's going to be a suffering and a crucible.

Micah Davis: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, let me say one more thing about that too. It's not a formula. I love that. Because I think we think -- well, the Bible says just do it. Seventy times seven, just do it. And you're saying it's not a formula.

So have you forgiven everybody all the things all the time, or do you still have to re-forgive?

Micah Davis: That's a great question. And, you know, I was just going to say that. Like you talked about earlier, I do feel like I've had quite a bit of experience working through forgiveness in my life and traversing really deep pain. But I would be lying if I said that writing a book on it just fixes it.

You know, David Brooks talks about as writers, writing our way into a better life. And for whatever reason -- you know, this is my second book. And the first book was called "Trailblazers" and was all about blazing a trail. And I ended up planting a church two weeks before that book came out, so I was walking out the message of that book in really real time.

And, you know, this past summer I went through a really, really difficult relational hurt with a really close friend and I found myself again in real time, as this book releases, working out and living through and walking through the very things that I talk about in these pages. And it's not easy and it's not linear either.

And I think that's where we get confused often around this conversation of forgiveness, is we think that once forgiveness has been extended and accepted, that that's that. But there's a difference between forgiveness as practice and forgiveness as process, right?

So the practice of forgiveness is very straightforward. "Hey, will you forgive me?" "Yes, I forgive you." Beautiful. That's a great entry into the process of forgiveness, and there are different aspects of trying to figure out what that looks like. And so in the book I kind of talk about those three things.

And, you know, the first step in the process of forgiving is to grieve. We have to grieve what we've lost. We have to acknowledge the fact that we've been hurt, that we've been wounded, that someone has done something to us that was bad or evil even.

And then we have to reassess and figure out, okay, in light of the hurt that has taken place, what does my relationship with this person need to look like right now? And again, this is another rabbit trail that I won't get fully into because of time, but this is where there's so many warps and bumps when it comes to this conversation of forgiveness. Because especially when, like, abuse or anything like that is present in a relationship, there should be very strong guardrails put in place to protect the victim in this situation, right?

So when we talk about forgiveness, we're not talking about just letting people off the hook. We're talking about reassessing the relationship and figuring out, okay, where do I stand with this person?

But then the last step is to rebuild. Jesus longs for reconciliation to be the end story. And unfortunately, on this side of heaven, in a sinful, fallen, broken world, that's not always possible. But it is possible for us in every situation to put our best foot forward towards that forgiving end, towards the end that we're all working towards, which is an eternity where reconciliation between heaven and earth, between Christ and the church will take place.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. That's good and that's hard.

Micah Davis: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm mindful -- one of my favorite authors, Stormie Omartian, she once wrote that forgiveness does not make the other person right, but it makes you free.

Micah Davis: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I think that's kind of -- when you're explaining those three parts of that process, I mean, that's part of it. That's why sometimes there's guardrails. Yeah, we cannot do this outside of good counsel and the Holy Spirit, and I think your book is a great tool for this. And in your book, you include -- I'm just going to call them four must-haves for forgiveness. Would you share those with us.

Micah Davis: Yeah, absolutely. So there's kind of four main acts that I see in the journey of forgiveness. There's forgiving others, there's being forgiven by others -- right? -- asking for forgiveness, there's forgiving ourselves, and then forgiving a forgiving God. And I think all four of those aspects are required elements of living a life here on earth.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Forgiving God, let's talk about that. Because he's perfect, he doesn't sin. What are we forgiving him for?

Micah Davis: Yeah. So part 4 of the book is entitled "Forgiving God." And it's a bit of a play on words. So it's about forgiving God, but it's also about a forgiving God. So it goes both ways, right? How do we forgive God? And then how do we receive the unmerited forgiveness that God extends to us?

So let's start with forgiving God because you asked about it. He's perfect. And so let me just say, theologically God does not need our forgiveness, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

Micah Davis: But psychologically --

Jennifer Rothschild: I knew what you meant, by the way. But yes, emotionally, psychologically. Yeah, go with that.

Micah Davis: For many of us, we have to reconcile with the God that we have often made in our image more than the image that we actually are made in. That's really where the reconciliation has to take place. And then really the big question is this: Can a God who allows suffering be trusted? And I think that question stems from this acute awareness that we all have that this world is not as it should be. And we're longing for things to be made right, and oftentimes we're looking for someone to blame.

But I think what's so fascinating is Jesus, you know, God incarnate, like, he suffered. He experienced unanswered prayer, he experienced God seeming silent and absence. And I think what that does is it reframes the big question around not a detached, unconcerned God, but a God who intimately understands our pain and our experience.

You know, I think God uses suffering in some cases. Author and pastor Tyler Staton says he allows pain. And he doesn't remove pain, but he does redeem it. And it's in these moments that Jesus invites us to authentically come before him with all that we are and all that we have, all of our anger, our frustration, our doubt, our despair, and to let him love us in that place. And I think it's in this moment where we not only experience an incredible degree of intimacy with God, but we also soberly wake up to the forgiveness that's first been extended to us.

And it's in this space that we recognize that God is not to blame, but sin, evil, and Satan are, right? God's not to blame. He's the one who offers a way out of the destructive cycle of sin and shame and suffering that we often find ourselves in. And so that's kind of the paradigm around forgiving God.

But the other piece is that we serve a forgiving God. One of my favorite stories that kind of goes overlooked in the Scriptures is in the Book of Micah. And, you know, we see this fascinating exchange between God and his prophet. This is Micah Chapter 5 and Chapter 6. God puts humanity on trial and pleads his case. And Micah's conclusion is effectively that humanity's only plea after God's laid out his case is guilty, right? Like, how are you going to go against the God of the universe? But on that cross hung Jesus, and on that cross Jesus declared, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."

So Jesus' Gospel, the central message of the Gospel is forgiveness. It's redeeming and reclaiming those who renounce or repent of their way of sin and believe in Jesus as Lord. And that's the invitation that's extended to anyone and everyone, and that's why we forgive, as Paul writes to the Colossians, as God first forgive us.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. I'm so glad you said that, Micah. We are tracking. Because I literally was thinking, where is that verse? Is it Colossians or Ephesians?

That the same forgiveness, yes, that God extends to us is what we extend to others. Because that has been the single verse that has convicted me the most. When I want to hold those who have hurt me accountable, I think, wait a minute. God didn't hold me accountable. I mean, he held Christ accountable for me. He forgave me fully. I mean, that's huge. When we receive that kind of humility of how greatly we are forgiven, I do think it kind of helps us with our forgiveness toward others. It's part of the process. It's part of the process.

Micah Davis: Right.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So then let's get real honest here, Micah, because you've been through hard stuff. Our listeners, they might even be right in the middle of some hard stuff, and forgiveness is theoretical to them, but they cannot even imagine. Like, they're afraid if they forgive, then they just kind of relinquish any kind of sense of just, you know, independence or agency that they have because they've been so obliterated.

So how do you forgive someone when you just can't get past the pain that they've caused? How do you do that?

Micah Davis: Yeah. I mean, it's hard and it's not linear. And I think that's where it's really difficult with this conversation, because I hesitate to offer, you know, platitudes or easy answers. And I do have different tools and reflections that I've been able to walk through in my own life, but I hesitate to just say, well, if you just do this, it will help out in any and every situation.

I think the biggest thing that we have to look at is what did Jesus do, right? How did he live his life? And you alluded to earlier, you know, this conversation that Jesus has with his disciples and Peter says, you know, "How many times should I forgive, Lord? Seven times?" And what most people don't realize is in First Century Judaism, the rabbis of the day taught that three times of forgiveness was kind of the max that you could offer. After three strikes, you were out.

And so Peter comes along to Jesus and he says, "Well, how many times should I forgive, Lord? Seven times?" And that's Peter trying to be a bit of a smart aleck. You know, that's him trying to be the teacher's pet. Well, how about seven times, Jesus? Seven is the holy number. That's the perfect number, right? And, of course, you alluded to it. Jesus says, "No, 70 times seven times."

And, of course, Jesus isn't being literal here, he's being dramatic. He's saying forgiveness is a way of life. And no matter the situation, no matter the position that we find ourselves in, there's kind of three things that we have to keep in mind. Number one, forgiveness is a responsive decision. We already talked about this. It's a decision that we make in response to the beautiful truth that God first forgave us.

Secondly, it's a relational decision. Forgiveness is always a starting point. And I think that's why Jesus calls us to repeat it over and over and over again, because to forgive is the prerequisite of the ultimate goal, which is reconciliation. And so as much as forgiveness depends on us, it can't end with us. The end goal is restored relationship to whatever degree that we can control or, again, is safe for us.

But then finally -- and I think this is the hardest part, Jennifer -- is that it's a required decision. There is no explaining away or sidestepping Jesus' imperative to forgive. He says, "Forgive as the Lord forgave you, for if you do not forgive other people's sins, your Heavenly Father will not forgive your sins. But if you do forgive other people's sins, your Heavenly Father will forgive your sins."

And so I think forgiveness is one of the single most powerful practices or means of grace that Jesus uses to help shape and form us into people who actually image him more authentically and beautifully. You know, there are so many ways that this concept of forgiveness can be abused or manipulated and, honestly, irresponsibly exemplified. But when it's done right, like, you know, right? Like, when we see it and when it's done right, it's just like it's so, so beautiful because it's amazing grace.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is. It's how we want to be. I want to be that way. I want the -- I mean, there's still situations in my life where I'm in the 70 times seven, you know. And I think what happens with me, Micah, is I feel a sense of defeat. "Lord, I don't want to feel this," you know. "I forgive. Please help my unbelief in this area." And he does. It's a process. We got to be patient with ourselves.

Which leads me to another question I saw in your book I would love for you to address. Okay? I'm very curious about this. Because you encourage us to forgive ourselves. So two questions about that. Where is that in the Bible? Is that biblical? And does it matter? Why does it matter?

Micah Davis: Yeah. I think it matters a ton because, you know, often the person that we have the hardest time forgiving is ourselves. We're often the one that we keep imprisoned the longest, we're often the one that we're the most hardest on. You know, there's that thing, like, the toughest critic in our lives is often between our ears, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Micah Davis: And so, yeah, biblically speaking, you know, there's this fascinating exchange -- Genesis Chapters 45 through 50 -- where Joseph, after being sold into slavery and completely abandoned by his brothers, he finds himself in the same room as them again decades later. And don't have time to give the full story, but the short of it is that Joseph forgives his brothers, but Joseph's brothers fail to forgive themselves. They constantly try to bargain with Joseph. And the text says that eventually Joseph breaks down. He just starts weeping.

And I think this exchange is a mirror for many of our exchanges with God. Like, we come before God and we beg him to forgive us and we never really get to this place of accepting his forgiveness. Like, in the back of our mind there's this subtle doubt that says there is no way that you can be forgiven for what you did or I know God has to forgive me, but he doesn't really want to. And that's the trap, right? We see God as this ruler of the cosmos who's separate, he's jaded, he's always upset with us because we can never get it right or never figure it out. We think, man, thank goodness for Jesus, because if it weren't for Jesus, God would hate us.

But, you know, here's the deal. God does not love us because Jesus died for us. Jesus died for us because God loves us. And I think that's such a subtle shift, but it's one that will change your perspective forever. God is faithful and just to forgive. And so I just wonder -- you know, maybe there's someone listening today who needs to hear this, that God forgives you, and I think the invitation for us today is now it's time for you to forgive you.

Jennifer Rothschild: So powerful, Micah. And I appreciate too that biblical anchoring. Because I was fast-forwarding through just the little I know Scripture and thinking, where can we find that? You are exactly right. That's beautiful.

And, you know, I am -- how do I put this? I am moved at the stewardship of your suffering and how God has redeemed it. And so I guess -- I think our listeners detect this also. There's a depth and a clarity in your message here and in your character, and this is a result of God's grace in your life, and even in this area of forgiveness. And so whatever someone is going through right now, whatever it is that their pain is that they need to forgive, this is what it looks like as you're processing it, and maybe even on the other side. So there is such hope, such beauty.

And here's one thing I wonder about, Micah. I'm curious your opinion. I don't know where it is in Psalms, where the Scripture -- maybe it's 103 or 110, I forget -- where God does not treat us as our sins deserve, but instead he has removed our sins as far as the east is from the west. Okay.

Micah Davis: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: So in some ways, when we're still beating ourselves up for our own sin, the sin that God has forgiven, what happens when we bring it up to him again? Do you think he remembers? Does he know what we're talking about?

Micah Davis: Yeah, I think he does. And I think this is where -- you know, there's just a lot of harmful adages around forgiveness. And one of them that I'm sure everyone's familiar with is, well, just forgive and forget, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Micah Davis: Just forgive and forget.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Micah Davis: But you said it. I believe it's Psalm 103. Like, God doesn't forget our sins; he removes our sins. There's an intentional act on behalf of God that -- like, he's so gracious towards us that in spite of our sinfulness, he loves us, he pursues us, he comes after us. And again, he sent his son Jesus to die for us so that we could be reconciled with him.

And I think that's such a helpful paradigm, even for us, as we are working out our own forgiveness journeys of -- you know, I think it's very distasteful to tell people who have been through really difficult things, well, just forget about it. Just forget about it, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Micah Davis: And we use Scripture -- like Matthew 18 is a big one that often gets used and abused in Christian circles to justify forgetfulness. But this has nothing to do with forgetfulness. It has everything to do with -- you know, in that parable in Matthew 18, there's a servant who comes before a king. The text says that there's a massive debt that this servant has to pay. And I think what's interesting is most people read that and they think, okay, so imagine this massive pile of cash in the room. And the way we read Matthew 18 is like, okay, that pile of cash right there, that doesn't exist. It's not there. It didn't happen, right? We want to forget about it. But that's factually untrue.

But the longer you hear that, the easier it becomes to believe. Forgiveness, however, at its essence requires a cost. So it means acknowledging the very real relational debt that's present in the room and then choosing, making a decisive action to release that debt.

Jennifer Rothschild: And I appreciate the way you're looking at all this because we cannot trivialize this, throw a verse on it, put it on a bumper sticker and drive off like, okay, done.

Micah Davis: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: So that's why I'm trying to be tender in the way I approach this. Because what do you say, then, to a person who's like, Okay, I get it? Because -- and you know what? We don't forget. Our brains don't forget. Our cellular level, we do not forget.

Micah Davis: Absolutely.

Jennifer Rothschild: So what do we do, then, when we, by the grace of God, to the best of our ability have forgiven? And we're still always in the process. But we remember the pain, and suddenly we just have this terrible memory. Do we forgive again? Do we rebrand it with grace? How does God redeem that? What do we do? Hard, right?

Micah Davis: It is. You know, Pete Scazzero has this line, "Jesus may live in your heart, but Grandpa lives in your bones." And that's certainly my story. If I look at my family tree, my parents are the only couple on either side of my family tree who have not been divorced. And they were about as close as they could to getting there. So, like, that pain lives in me, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Right.

Micah Davis: And so I think when it comes to remembering these things and acknowledging these things, there's just an element of working it out and living it out in real time. And I think the way that Jesus demonstrates this is -- you know, in John Chapter 20, he appears before his disciples and he says, "Peace be with you." And I just think, what? These guys just abandoned you. They just dipped when you went to the Cross. Like, you spent three years pouring everything into these guys, and when the moment of truth came, they were nowhere to be found. And so, Jesus, you have the audacity to show back up in a room unannounced and to say, "Peace be with you"?

And, you know, he says that line three times. And we're all familiar with Peter's three denials. And eventually he ends up asking Peter, you know, "Peter, do you love me?" How many times? Three times. Every time he's asking Peter, he's acknowledging, hey, I know what you did and I forgive you. And the way that he proves that is he shows his disciples his body. He says, Look at my hands. Look at my feet. Do you see my -- what? My scars. And I think that's the invitation for us as followers of Jesus.

To live as a human is to be wounded. But we have the choice to allow those wounds to stay open or to allow Jesus to heal those wounds and to become, as Nouwen calls us, wounded healers that walk around scarred. But those scars demonstrate a testimony. And for us, it allows us to say that failure isn't final, but forgiveness is.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hallelujah. All right, brother. This is so good that I could talk to you so long that our listeners would stop listening, so we are going to head to our last question. But I just -- and I know that I'm speaking for my listeners. This is a book we need to go through slowly and with a buddy.

Micah Davis: Yeah. Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: But we're going to get to our last question, Micah. Okay. So someone listening -- you have unearthed a lot of things that they have tried to keep buried, and they're feeling a little uncomfy right now and they're like, I get it. He says it's choosing your suffering. I get it. He says there's not a formula, it's a crucible. I get it. But I still need to know. Micah, please tell me, what is the first thing that I can do when this podcast ends -- because I am struggling to forgive. I don't want to. I'm struggling to forgive, but I want to get free. Give them something that they can do when this podcast ends.

Micah Davis: Let me give, like, sort of a theoretical, and then I'll end with the practical.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Micah Davis: Be gentle with yourself. Be patient. You know, you've talked about this, Jennifer. Like, this is a slow process. And I think oftentimes we listen to podcasts or we read books and we can get caught up in the minutia of almost treating it like trickery, like, oh, well, if I just do step one, two, three, then I should achieve this end result. And Jesus longs for us to become healed, to become whole, but it's three steps forward and two steps back. And you're going to have good days and you're going to have bad days. So just be patient and be gentle with yourself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Good word.

Micah Davis: But practically speaking, I think one of the most important things that we can begin developing in our lives is a practice of confession.

And you may say, well, wait. I'm the one who was hurt. Why do I need to confess anything? But I think what confession does is it gives us the space and the ability to begin practicing these reconciling conversations. And so before we work on forgiving someone else, maybe we just start with ourselves. We look in the mirror and ask, Holy Spirit, is there anything within me that is out of alignment with who you are and what you're calling me to that I need to share?

And so really easy in terms of setting this up. Find someone trustworthy. So you already alluded to it, Jennifer. Find a friend, find a buddy, right? Think about who that person is. And then be specific. You don't have to get in the nitty-gritty details, but be specific about what it is that you're struggling with. And maybe you need to confess the very real hurt that's come up in the midst of this conversation. You're angry at someone and that anger has moved from righteous anger to unholy bitterness and resentment and it's, like, eating at you. Confess that.

And then finish with forgiveness. Ask the other person. One of my favorite ways to practice this is at the end -- I practice this with two other guys, and we always finish by saying, "Micah, you are forgiven," "Jake, you are forgiven," "Matt, you are forgiven." And just hearing those words allows us to walk in the freedom of forgiveness. Even if we're not there yet, again, practicing that regularly allows us to move in step with the wounded healer who longs for us to become people of reconciliation.

KC Wright: Oh, yes. He said it so beautifully. Just be gentle with yourself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: Patient. It's a slow process. But I loved how practical he was, and it wasn't what I expected.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. I'm with you on that. I know exactly what you mean.

And remember, he said we need to develop a practice of confession so, like, when we confess to God, it tunes our heart with reconciliation. So say it, you know, "Forgive me, God." And then find a trustworthy person that you can be specific with about your struggle -- your sin, your struggle, whatever it might be. Just pray together.

KC Wright: I love the way he ends his time with his friends. They tell each other, "You are forgiven."

This was so helpful today. So get his book. You can get one now at the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/375, and you can enter to win one at Jennifer's Insta, @jennrothschild.

All right. I hope you enjoyed this as much as I did. We just love hanging out with you every single week. Thanks for hanging out, and thanks too so much for sharing the podcast with others. Until next week -- you know the drill -- whatever you face, however you feel, you can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I know I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: KC, you know what I thought I'd show you?

KC Wright: What?

Jennifer Rothschild: I'll give you an example of what happened that night.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Here's my iPhone. Let's see if the mic will catch it.

KC Wright: Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, Siri, text message KC Wright.

Siri: What do you want to say to KC?

Jennifer Rothschild: Wow, this speaker I'm listening to right now, Jennifer, is really good, but I wish she'd stop talking so that I could keep texting. And by the way, KC, your cologne smells really nice this morning, which I'm glad because we are shoved in the closet.

Siri: It says, Wow, this speaker I'm listening to right now, Jennifer, is really good, but I wish she'd stop talking so that I could keep texting. And by the way, KC, your cologne smells really nice this morning.

Jennifer Rothschild: Send it. Yes, that's what I got to hear basically the whole time I was speaking.

KC Wright: Ooh.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Really Make a Difference? With Governor John Kasich [Episode 374]

John Kasich: There's just two important things, and that is -- the two most important commandments are love God, which brings about humility, I hope, and the other one is treat somebody else the way you want them to treat you. That's what it is. And then faith itself -- as I've explored this over the years, my friends, who are these really learned people in faith, said to me that God makes the first move. And I think that's right. So the question is, when God makes the first move, how do you respond?

Jennifer Rothschild: Have you ever felt too small to make a difference in all the big problems in our world, or even in your own community? And can we as people of faith really make a difference? Oh, yes, you can. And today Governor John Kasich, he's going to show you how.

You are going to find that the antidote to cynicism and despair is your faith in action. Few people are better qualified, my friends, to tackle this than former Ohio governor and presidential candidate John Kasich. So today on The 4:13, he's going to remind us that our faith and our faith communities can really make a difference. You're going to get practical ideas for making positive change and hope to dream about what is possible, because there is a lot that is possible.

So, KC, buckle up. Let's light up the darkness. Here we go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, hey, friends. We're glad you're with us today on The 4:13. KC and I are in the closet. Two friends, one topic, and zero stress. And our topic today is so good. But I'm wondering what's your stress level like, KC? How are you? We haven't even talked this morning yet before we went on mic. So give me some updates.

KC Wright: I have zero stress right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, I like.

KC Wright: Zero stress. I am a little wired on the inside.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, you came in with an energy drink. But why else are you wired?

KC Wright: Well, I also had an iced coffee this morning, and I'm sipping an energy drink. But you've got a lot of energy too.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do. I don't know what's wrong with me.

KC Wright: Hey, I've got a story for you.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, tell me.

KC Wright: Okay. Speaking of faith in action, El, my daughter, 15, wanted a pair of shoes that cost $140.

Jennifer Rothschild: Whoa.

KC Wright: I said no.

Jennifer Rothschild: Correct.

KC Wright: Let's go cheaper. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

KC Wright: Because I got her first day of school shoes, a pair of Adidas, for, you know, 80 bucks. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right. Which is high.

KC Wright: Right, right.

Jennifer Rothschild: I mean, that's a good pair of shoes.

KC Wright: And then her godparents wanted to do something for her, so they got her the expensive shoes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh.

KC Wright: Okay? But on top of coupons and discounts and points, they got those 140's down to 40 something.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's brilliant.

KC Wright: Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

KC Wright: However, while we were out and about, El said everywhere we went shopping, "Oh, I still want a pair of UGGs."

Jennifer Rothschild: Ugh.

KC Wright: Yeah. That's why they have them named UGGs.

Jennifer Rothschild: I do not like them. Sorry. I don't want to offend anybody, but yeah, I don't love them. Okay, but she wants UGGs.

KC Wright: And I said, "Well, El, you know what? You can believe God for them. Troy, Lisa, your godparents, and Daddy have done enough."

Well, behold, the shoe anointing must have fell on a couple of amazing friends in our church, right? A couple Sundays ago, they randomly send me a $100-plus gift card for Journeys so El can get any shoe she wanted for her birthday.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: So El is getting her UGGs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: And so I'm just -- I'm using my faith to grow a church. My girl over here using her faith for shoes. Okay? So anyway, I just wanted to share that chuckle of faith in action. And I do believe that she gets this shoe obsession from her Aunt J.R.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yeah.

KC Wright: Yes. But it was so awesome to see God give her the desires of her heart, even something as small as shoes.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I got to be honest. I think that's really sweet too. And when you're a 15-year-old girl, shoes are like a big deal. But when you're not a 15-year-old girl, shoes are always a big deal. Because, listen, your size of your pants may change, but your shoes size doesn't. So I just, like, love that.

But you know what it's also such a picture of, KC, is just people in the body of Christ, in the community of faith, caring for each other.

KC Wright: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: And that's so precious. In fact, I think you had a quote there --

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- from John Kasich about caring.

KC Wright: Yeah, let me read a quote from his book. "If we care for one another, if we love one another, if we look to live a life bigger than ourselves, there's a way to do that through our institutions of faith." And he went on to say, "And if it works out that we have an idea for how to make the world a better place, there's a way to put that idea into practice through these institutions as well." Good stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right? And so -- I mean, the shoe example is tiny on the big scale of eternity, but, I mean, your school -- your school -- your church does that with feeding the hungry, and lots of us who are listening are involved in communities of faith where we're active. And so that's what John Kasich is going to talk about today. And it's super inspiring and very interesting.

And at one point, it was so funny -- you're going to hear this -- I asked him a question, and he goes, "I don't agree with that question," or something like that. So it'll be fun for you to hear him disagree with me. I loved it.

All right, let's introduce him. As if he needs it.

KC Wright: John Kasich is a national leader who has spent a lifetime bringing people together to solve big problems and leave the world around them just a little bit better than they found it. He served as the 69th governor of Ohio and ran for president during the 2016 GOP primary. His message focused on unifying Americans rather than dividing them, championing the great potential of our citizens to make positive impacts in their own communities.

Today he runs the Kasich Company and serves as a political analyst for NBC, CNBC, and MSNBC. He's the author of four New York Times bestsellers, and today he and Jennifer are talking about his most recent book titled "Heaven Help Us: How Faith Communities Inspire Hope, Strengthen Neighborhoods, and Build the Future."

Jennifer Rothschild: All right. I've been very excited and slightly nervous to have you on here, Governor.

John Kasich: Come on. What are you talking about, nervous? What's wrong with you?

Jennifer Rothschild: Because you I have followed. Okay? I'm a political junkie to an extent, and I have followed your career.

John Kasich: I'm sorry.

Jennifer Rothschild: I know, right?

John Kasich: I'm sorry.

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm trying to recover. But -- with your presidential run, with all the things. Okay. But I do want to tell you, without making you feel awkward, that I have appreciated your steadfast character over the years in every role that you have filled. And so that is meaningful to me just as an American.

But I also want to tell you as a believer in Christ, I've loved how you're very comfortable and you're not shy about your faith. And so since our audience is mostly Christ followers, I would just love if you'd start off taking us into that part of your story, your faith story.

John Kasich: Well, Jennifer, when I was a little boy, I was involved pretty much in the church, Catholic Church. I was an altar boy and I was a commentator and all that kind of stuff. And then I went to college, of course, and I became very much a wayward son. I think I knew the Lord well back as a kid, but, you know, I go to college and all of a sudden he's a rabbit's foot, you know, if I needed something. And then I get elected to the legislature, I'm in Congress, you know, and I'm just kind of buzzing along, everything's going fine.

And then one day in 1987 I get a call that my father had been killed and my mother was dying and would die. They were killed by a drunk driver. I went there, and a young minister, who my mother always talked about, asked me where I was on my faith, and I could not, Jennifer, answer the question very well. He said you have a window of opportunity to go through that window to find out where you are vis a vis the Lord.

And that was in 1987, and I've been on the other side of that window since then, still trying to figure everything out. And he brought a lot of people around me, and it allowed me to really kind of understand him and understand myself better. And so, you know, that's kind of what's happened with me.

And, you know, it's something that I really -- I'm just drawn to. I have some great friends who are wonderful theologians, and, you know, it's just great. I have great conversations with them, we -- it's a wonderful thing.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is.

John Kasich: I'm just happy about it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, and it shows, and it has changed everything that you have done on the other side of that window. And I love the fact that you said you're still kind of always learning and growing and figuring it out, because that's part of the journey of faith. So thank you for sharing that. And I appreciate how it has impacted how you have served and what you've written.

So I want us to turn to your latest book, "Heaven Help Us." Okay. But I want us to kind of acknowledge the elephant in the room, or on the podcast, because I think lots of people are kind of skeptical about the church and faith communities and wonder, okay, can the church, can faith communities really have a positive impact when our climate, at least in the U.S., is so polarized. Because people can often see faith as divisive instead of unifying. So speak to that.

John Kasich: Yeah. You know, first of all, I guess there's just two important things, and that is -- the two most important commandments are love God, which brings about humility, I hope, and the other one is treat somebody else the way you want them to treat you. That's what it is. And then faith itself -- as I've explored this over the years, my friends, who are these really learned people in faith, said to me that God makes the first move. And I think that's right.

So the question is when God makes the first move, how do you respond? If you get something that happens to you -- and I'll give you a very practical real story right now.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Love it.

John Kasich: There's a young guy who is a great golfer. He's been on the Korn Ferry Tour, which is one of the best ones. He's 28 years old and he's been struggling. He lost his card, and he's playing on mini tours, and this is hard. And I was on the first hole with him, had only met him a couple hours earlier, and I went over to him and I said, "Hey, Bryce, do you have any personal faith?" And my wife is like, "You met this guy, like, two hours ago when you're badgering him about this?" I said, "Well, sweetie..."

So he looks at me, he says, ah, you know, blah, blah, blah. He sounded like me when my preacher friend asked me that question in '87. And I said, "Well" -- he goes, "Well, I don't kind of go to church that often." I said, "Wait a minute, wait a minute. This has nothing to do with going to church. It has nothing to do with crossing yourself, it has nothing to do with mumbling a bunch of prayers or whatever."

I said, "What this is all about is building a relationship. It's building a relationship with the Almighty. He's made you, he loves you, he's for you, he's on your side, he's on your team, and that's all you need to do. Like you and I have a relationship here? Well, you can have a relationship with him. You can tell him what's on your mind, he can give you direction. At the end, through thick and thin, he'll be for you."

And he looks at me and he goes, "No one has ever said anything like that to me before."

So guess what? He lives in Pinehurst, North Carolina, and I have a friend who lives down there who actually knows him --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, wow.

John Kasich: -- and he now -- he now is gathering around this guy and sending him daily things, and hopefully, you know, he won't drift away and he'll respond. And so that's kind of the way I look at it. I think it's cool, I think it's fun, and, you know, we'll see what happens.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

John Kasich: And then we -- you know, you and I, or anybody else listening -- I mean, maybe -- and this is going to sound arrogant. But I called one of my friends who -- he actually runs my Bible study here, and I said, "Well, when God is going to talk to you, I mean, can he talk to you through somebody else?" And I told him the story of this golfer. And he said, "Oh, for sure."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

John Kasich: "For sure." So I think with all of us, if we care about somebody else, we can talk to them in a way that's not heavy handed or preachy or whatever and say, "Hey, here's kind of the way I look at it, and you ought to think about it."

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it. You know why I love it too, because you're just speaking of -- I asked you a question that you could have answered about institutions, but instead you took it down to the individual, because that's where the power is. It's in each of us. And when we walk in the light of Christ, then we have light to give to others. So I love that story.

John Kasich: Well, this conversation, and many that I have now around this book, makes me very nervous, Jennifer, because I'm, you know, a hypocrite and a fraud. And that used to bother me a lot because, you know, I talk a better game than I do.

But, you know, one of my friends said to me, well, there is -- you can have, in a golf term, a mulligan, you know. It's called repentance.

Jennifer Rothschild: There you go.

John Kasich: And I guess that's right. But, you know, look, I don't know what to tell you. I'm just trying to do the best I can, but I just fail, you know. I fail --

Jennifer Rothschild: Don't we all.

John Kasich: Like, I was at this thing -- my wife asked me to go to this dinner on human trafficking which she was very involved with. And this guy walks up to me, and I'm sitting there and he's like, "Where do I know you from?" I said, "How can I tell you where you know me from?" And then he's like, "Well, did you work at Morgan Stanley?" "No, I didn't." And he goes, "Well, what's your name?" And I looked at him and I said, "Well, what, are you from ICE here?" And then he walks away. And my wife was like, "Come on, John." So I then had to go find and say, hey, you know, this is who I am.

Jennifer Rothschild: Sorry.

John Kasich: But, I mean, I could have been nice from the beginning. But I'm more kind than I am nice.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you know what? The kindness is the deeper virtue anyway. But here's the thing. I appreciate you sharing that, because we're all in process. And those of us who say we're never hypocritical or we're never frauds are probably the most fraudulent and hypocritical among us. So I think living honestly, it shows more who God is. Because we all need him, and that's kind of what you're sharing.

And one of the things that I know with people of faith is we walk through this life and we see the injustice, we see the things that are messed up, and we want to make a difference. Okay? And often we think, well, the only way to really do that is to shape public policy, but I'm just Joe Normal and I have no power and I can't do that.

So I would be curious from your perspective, how can an individual and a faith community begin to really influence and shape just the texture of our nation, maybe the public policy? And then, like, are there any areas in particular that the church could step into to help maximize the church's impact?

John Kasich: Well, I mean, I don't kind of like that because I don't really think that we need to be worrying so much about -- well, I should say -- it's a good question. Here's what I guess I'm saying.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, tell me.

John Kasich: My book --

Jennifer Rothschild: I'm okay if you don't like it.

John Kasich: My book lays out how people can solve problems that they see in their life, or they have a burning passion to do something good, and then they can visit an institution, a church, a synagogue, or a mosque, and there they can hopefully find material support, psychological support, strength in numbers, and get something done. That's what almost all the people in this book have done. They just took their ideas, their vision, to an institution to somehow do good.

Now, when you talk about influencing public policy, that's like -- you know, I kind of don't like that idea because I don't go to church to try to figure out what my position is on some issue in Washington.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's great.

John Kasich: I don't like that idea. I like the idea of -- it's sort of like people say, "Well, how did your faith help you to be in office?" Well, it just informs me, but it doesn't -- I don't go and look up Isaiah 16:23 to figure out what I'm going to decide on something. So we have to be very careful about getting church involved.

Now, that doesn't mean -- if you take Martin Luther King, I mean, it was the churches that brought about civil rights, so I don't want to dismiss that. But you have to be very careful about what you're going to choose. I mean, it would be really good, for example, if all the faith institutions started to say, I don't care who we want to blame, I don't care about the issue. Can we just feed people in Gaza?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

John Kasich: You know, can we work to end human trafficking?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

John Kasich: But those are sort big titled issues, as opposed to what we're going to do on some bill moving -- you see what I'm saying?

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, 100%.

John Kasich: I hope I'm being clear.

Jennifer Rothschild: You are being very clear. And I appreciate it because I think that the church -- like, when I go on a Sunday morning, I do not expect to hear how I should vote or impact public policy. I go to worship Christ and to be with fellow believers and to love other people. But --

John Kasich: Yeah, I want to go to understand that Joseph, who was obviously kind of a snitch and arrogant early on and got sold, and then the next thing you know, he's over in Egypt and, you know, he's in this prison after he gets wrongly accused. And then one thing leads to another, and the next thing you know, the guy's running, you know, Egypt, and then his brothers come to him. You never know what God has in mind. That's what I want to hear. And let that translate into my life and what that means.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that's good.

John Kasich: I think the biblical principles take care of the rest of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's good. All right, that's a great clarification, and I really appreciate it. And I think a lot of us need to hear that. I needed to hear that. We all need to hear that.

John Kasich: Well, Jennifer, I believe for our country to be vastly improved, instead of being polarized and hateful in so many different ways, I do think it's going to take a spiritual awakening in some way. And we saw that after the Gilded Age when we saw the Social Gospel Movement that did bring a lot of social change to our country, you know, rights for women and the way we treat minors and all that kind of stuff. That was really important. I think we're going to need some of that here.

And what does look like? I don't know. I mean, is it done through us? I don't know what the Lord's got up his sleeve. But we need something like that because just digging out of this ourselves, I don't see how it's going to happen.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it's not working at this point. And, you know, I think -- I'm very mindful of, you know, social media and people who are very passionate about the right things, but they might go about expressing their passion in wrong ways, and I just don't think we're going to get to heaven someday and God is going to say, "Oh, well done, you good and faithful servant. Way to prove everyone wrong on Facebook," you know. I want to hear him say, "Way to love them like I have loved you." And, oh, man, Governor, he loves us with grace and forgiveness, and more grace and more forgiveness, and so that's --

John Kasich: Yeah.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- that's how I want to be. That's how I want to be.

John Kasich: Yeah. I mean, let's just take care of our own knitting where we live and build things from the bottom up, and that way we'll begin to -- that's what the book is about, how people can forget all this political stuff, which gets us all grounded down, and start doing things to solve problems based on the passion that we have in our heart.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Because God's put passion in all of our hearts.

John Kasich: Correct.

Jennifer Rothschild: And, in fact, let's go back to your book. Your title, "Heaven Help Us," I think it's real interesting that that phrase, like, it expresses a desperation, heaven help us, and hope, like that there is help from heaven. So I'd just love for you to unpack that just a little bit. Talk about that.

John Kasich: Well, mine was, you know, the hopeful part of it. I didn't see the -- I never thought of the negative thing. And it just came to me. Zondervan -- which has been great -- wanted to put something in there about building the nation, and I'm like, nope, we're not doing that. Nope, we are not doing that. I don't want anything to do with politics in here, because this takes care of itself.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. Well -- and so that leads me to this. I'm curious -- because there are so many stories in your book, was there one in particular -- which I know that could be very hard to choose. But was there one that really stuck with you that you see as making a real difference? And I'd love to know what you might have gleaned from that, what you could, you know, just inspire us with.

John Kasich: Well, let me just say this. I have two daughters. You don't think I'm going to say which one I like better than the other one.

Jennifer Rothschild: And yours are twins too, aren't they?

John Kasich: Yes, they are. No, no, no. Sorry, I'm not -- no. But, I mean, they all have their -- they all have great significance. I mean, the guy that had a dream, who was in a synagogue, who, you know, 15 years later has got a church, a synagogue, and a mosque on the same parcel in Omaha, Nebraska, is cool. My friend Hal Donaldson, who's now feeding 640,000 children around the world, it's just incredible.

Jennifer Rothschild: Convoy of Hope. That's Convoy of Hope, yeah.

John Kasich: Convoy of Hope is ama -- I've been there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Same.

John Kasich: It is amazing. Have you been there?

Jennifer Rothschild: In fact -- you're going to laugh -- but I'm also a speaker, and I spoke there last week. And I think I was more inspired by them than I could have ever inspired them. Incredible what they do. Logistically, heart. Brilliant. Yeah.

John Kasich: Everything is excellent.

Jennifer Rothschild: Mm-hmm, it is. Which is how we should be.

John Kasich: I'll be darned. So you got to see Hal and his family?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

John Kasich: I was just there about a month ago. I was blown away.

Jennifer Rothschild: Same.

John Kasich: Blown away.

Jennifer Rothschild: Just their warehouse -- well, in fact, my listeners, I will make sure I put a link to the Convoy of Hope also, along with the Governor's book, so that you can check out Convoy of Hope. But it is definitely worthy to donate to and to participate with their disaster relief and all the other things they do.

John Kasich: Yeah. I mean, there's just -- you know, I think the thing is, though, when I talk about Hal, it always bothers me because people say, "I can't feed 640,000 people every day." No, you don't. But you could feed one.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

John Kasich: Or you could visit a lonely lady that lives down the street or, you know, you can be kind to some child and help them learn to read. I mean, there's a zillion things that we can do. And everybody's made differently and everybody has different gifts, so just use them.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, use them. Boy, that is the best thing.

Okay. I think that could have been the end of our conversation, but I'm going to ask you one more question --

John Kasich: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- see if you can improve upon this. This will be our last question. I would love it if you could give us some very practical ways that we can each support and even, like, celebrate the contribution of our churches and faith communities and how we can support those efforts.

John Kasich: Well, I think it's to tell people the Good News about what those institutions -- look, everything is person to person.

I started a Bible study in 1987. We meet every other Monday, and we have -- what is that? That's almost 40 years. I just called a guy just before we did this show. And I like the guy a lot, and his wife teaches in a Christian school, but I don't know what he's doing in that regard. I just invited him to join the Bible study. We don't want it to be real big, but I thought he would be a great addition. And one of the young men that's in it with me, works with me every day, he's going to talk to the guy, and he's going to say, "Don't join because John Kasich asked you, join because you might want to do it."

And so I think it's just -- look, it's like I was talking to that golfer. If the Lord is using you to talk to somebody else about him, just do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Just tell the Good News. Be person to person. So if the Lord leads you to talk about him, just do it. Those were his words.

KC Wright: This whole entire conversation gave me hope again for our nation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: It's a one-on-one thing, one heart at a time, one act of kindness at a time. And it was so refreshing.

So now, our people, you know you need to keep the inspiration going by reading his book. And as always, we're giving one away on Jennifer's Instagram. Simply go to @jennrothschild on the Gram. Okay? Or you can get there through the Show Notes. It's real simple. Go to 413podcast.com/374. And, of course, you can also read the transcript there just for you.

But I want to read one quote from this book, as we wind up, just to encourage you even more. He wrote, "Over the years, I've come to believe that the good works we do in service of our faith, alongside people who join us in service of that faith, can change the world." So let's do it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Let's do it.

KC Wright: Let's lock arms with our people and change the world one heart at a time.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: You can make a difference. You can change the world. You can because -- you know why? You can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: I can. And you can.

KC Wright: You can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And we all can one heart at a time, KC.

KC Wright: Our little church just had an event called Bless Fest. So from 9:00 AM till 2:00 PM, people just pulled up and we gave it all away.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

KC Wright: Food, hygiene products, shoes. Amazing. I will never forget this one lady coming up to me saying, "Why are y'all doing this?" And I said, "To love people." You know, we make it so difficult. God made it so easy. Love God, love people. And she just began to weep. And I said, "Here, take this salsa and get out of here." No.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Make Wise Decisions? With Katie M. Reid [Episode 373]

Katie Reid: Whether you're just getting ready to enter into adulthood, or maybe you're an empty nester or you are faced with a big change in your life, I think we can get paralyzed with all the options and what do we do about this and what do we do about that? And so I want to look at what are some of the decisions we can make every time, even when we don't know specifically what to do about a given situation.

Jennifer Rothschild: Uncertainty about the future, like even the next step, can paralyze you and keep you from making important decisions, or it can make you second guess every decision that you do make. You just want to be sure that each choice is the right one, right? But how do you know? And what if you're wrong?

Well, today's guest, author Katie Reid, is going to draw from the stories of Deborah and the early judges to show you how you can make wise decisions. She's going to give you six biblical principles that you can apply no matter what decision you face.

I really love this conversation, and I know you're going to, so, KC, let's get this going.

KC Wright: Let's do it. Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now, welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey, friends. I hope you've had a good week. KC and I are down in the closet here together, and we were just complaining that we are hot. Not the good kind of hot, the sweaty kind of hot.

KC Wright: Yeah, it's a little -- it's a little --

Jennifer Rothschild: It's a little toasty in the closet.

KC Wright: Humid.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is.

KC Wright: Why is it humid in here?

Jennifer Rothschild: I don't know. But we are going to warrior on and soldier through this. Just don't imagine us too sweaty. We look good when we glisten.

KC Wright: Oh, it's a sauna. We're losing weight as we speak.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that is what we're doing. But our goal is just to help you and us be more than we even feel capable of through living this "I Can" life, Christ's power in us. And, of course, his two friends, sweaty, with one topic and zero stress.

But I will tell you this. Not only are we sweaty and hot, but we were very confused before we went on mic and this was cracking me up. So Gretchen in our office, whenever one of you wonderful 4:13ers sends us an email, she will often print it out and leave it on KC's computer. So he comes in, I don't know it's there, and he starts reading. And it's this sweet email. And he's reading little pieces and he said, "Oh, it's from Katie Reed." I said, "Katie Reid? That's who we're talking to today."

Okay, so we have been so confused. But we just learned that the Katie Reid, who we are talking to today, has a different spelling of her name. But whoever you are, Katie Reed, KC's going to read some of your sweet comments because they were just really kind and we want to give you a big shoutout.

KC Wright: Absolutely. Thank you for this. It says, "Dear Sweet Jennifer and KC." First of all, how kind is that?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, we are sweet.

KC Wright: "Wow. Your podcasts are so good. To God be the glory."

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

KC Wright: "So inspiring, so encouraging, and this one was as well." And she goes into this podcast that just touched her heart. But she goes on to say, "Thank you for all your positive, encouraging episodes. I don't think I've heard even one that did not hit home in an encouraging way.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that.

KC Wright: Katie, that's answered prayer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. I love that.

KC Wright: We pray that. "Way to go. May you always and forever be richly blessed, both Jennifer and her own Dr. Phil and KC and his Elly. You are loved. And, Jennifer, if you are ever in my area, I'd love to come hear you speak live. Your Bible studies are so good." And I give that a hearty amen, and I know you do too.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's sweet. Wow, I love that. Thank you, Katie.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you know what? We got another -- KC, I didn't even tell you this yet. But we got another sweet review, and this one was on the Apple podcast platform. Oh, man, maybe it was a few weeks ago. I don't know when you read it. But it was from -- we said David Smith. Okay?

KC Wright: Oh, yes, I remember this.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Okay. And it was really great review. Well, I got an email last week, or sometime recently -- listen, the older I get, everything was last week, so...

Anyway, I got an email from this dear person, and she said, "Thank you so much for reading my review. My name is Daveida. I am a woman." We're like, "Oh." And you know what I did? I said, "Well, KC can't see so well. He's getting old." No. And those little usernames are hard to read --

KC Wright: Yeah, they are.

Jennifer Rothschild: -- because they're teeny-weeny and smushed together. But anyway, I wrote her back and I said, "Daveida, thank you. I'm so glad to know actually who you are," so going to give out another big shoutout to her.

But anyway, I hope what you see from this is that we love you. We appreciate hearing from you because, y'all, we're just sweating in the closet here. Okay? And so when we get to hear your voice on one of the platforms with a review -- which please leave one and/or email -- that just blesses us. And thank you. We know you're out there.

All right. So thank you, Katie Reid. And now we're going to introduce the other Katie Reid, because this was a great conversation.

KC Wright: Katie Reid is a Bible teacher, author, and podcaster herself. Trained in education, Katie teaches around her kitchen table, in the classroom, and around the country. She co-hosts the Martha + Mary Show and runs the Martha + Mary Show Sisterhood Group on Facebook. Katie is a pastor's wife, a worship leader. Following Jesus, marrying her husband, and being a mom to five are the best decisions she's made.

All right, here is Katie and J.R.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Katie, I'm glad you're back on the podcast, because we're going to talk about your latest book, which is called "God, What Do I Do?" Boy, that is a question I have asked. And it's about making wise decisions, and you based it on the Old Testament Book of Judges. Okay. So I want to know a couple of things. First of all, why Judges? Because to some people, that's like, is that in the Bible? You know, it's an obscure book for some people. And then tell us what the connection between making good decisions and the Book of Judges is.

Katie Reid: Well, Jennifer, thanks so much for having me on again. It's always a treat to sit down and talk with you.

Yeah, Judges is not that book that people are like, "I can't wait to dive in." But in 2018, I was blessed to go on a trip to Israel. And as we were there, our guide kept bringing Deborah up from the Book of Judges. And I really didn't know a ton about her; there's not a lot written about her. But he was pointing out some historical markers and places that she would have been, and it really piqued my interest.

In fact, back then I was getting ready to launch "Made Like Martha" and wasn't really thinking about my next book yet, but I felt clearly that the Lord was directing me to lean in and look at Deborah and what can we learn from her for right now and for today.

And so as I started diving in, you know, at first it was going to be a trade book, but then I started looking verse by verse at Judges 1 through 5 and this theme of decision making came up. And honestly, Jennifer, there's a lot about what not to do. But I know in my own life, sometimes when I've really blown it, that is actually when I learn the most.

And so even though we see numerous examples of God's people, you know, they're supposed to be possessing the land and entering into what he's promised them, and they often fall short. But we do too. And so I'm thankful for that example and how Jesus is right there ready to extend mercy to us even when we don't deserve it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, that is so good. And I happen to love just -- I'm an Old Testament girl, so I love these books. And so I'm curious, as you began studying the Book of Judges, even though you focused a lot on Deborah, did you notice any of the early judges and what they might have had in common with each other?

Katie Reid: Yeah. I see in these first few judges in this book, they were willing and available. Deborah, we see, was a prophetess and judge. But then we see Shamgar, and he is just going about his business from what I can tell -- he's a farmer -- and he takes on the enemy with just what he had in his hand. And so even though each of their lives looked different, I saw this commonality of willingness to do what God had asked them to do, and surely a reliance on him to do it.

And so I think that's inspiring for us today too. Are we willing to do the things God has asked us to do? Because I surely don't want to get to the end of my life and say, "Yeah, I just didn't really feel like that, God," when he had a kingdom assignment for me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Man, isn't that the truth?

Well, and I love that you have focused so much on Deborah. And I want to go to her in a few minutes. But I also love that even just what you brought out about -- Shamgar, is that how you say his name?

Katie Reid: Shamgar, I think.

Jennifer Rothschild: Shamgar. Okay. The willingness and the availability of all of them. Because lots of us are just doing our ordinary thing, and we want to be willing and we want to be available, just as you said.

And so sometimes that includes being willing and available. It means we've got to make choices, right? So in your book, one of the things you do is you talk about six decisions that we can make even when we just don't know exactly what to do. So I would love to know -- because that's empowering. So I'd love to know an overview of what some of those or maybe even all six of those decisions are.

Katie Reid: Yeah, absolutely. We have just recently launched two of our kids into adulthood. And so whether you're just getting ready to enter into adulthood, or maybe you're an empty nester or you are faced with a big change in your life, I think we can get paralyzed with all the options and what do we do about this and what do we do about that? And so I want to look at what are some of the decisions we can make every time, even when we don't know specifically what to do about a given situation.

And so those six decisions, just to fly over, are the decision to remember, the decision to obey, the decision to be responsible, the decision to endure, the decision to rise, and the decision to testify. And we see this beautiful picture in Judges 1 through 5 of how we can lean in and make these decisions.

And that first one is remembering. The older I get, the harder that is, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, right.

Katie Reid: And so I have to, you know, write notes or put reminders on my phone. But we see throughout Scripture that God reminds his people of who he is and what he's done.

When my husband and I were entering into ministry, a mentor of ours said, "Okay, you guys, I know you're very excited, but storms are going to come. And what is going to be your anchor verse to hold on to so that you don't bail?" And for us, it was Psalm 78:4-8. And verse 4 says, "We will not keep silent. We will tell the next generation the praise for the deeds of the Lord, his might, and the wonders he has done." And God commands that throughout Scripture, "Remember what I have done and who I am."

And in Judges 2, we read about a generation arose that did not know the Lord. And, Jennifer, that has just been heavy on my mind. As a mom to five kids ranging in age from 9 to 21, it's like, how did that happen that a generation arose that did not know the Lord? And so as we decide to remember and tell those around us what God has done for us, it not only fortifies our faith, but it spreads the faith -- right? -- and gives other people an opportunity to taste and see that the Lord is good.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, this is good. Now, obviously, 4:13ers, you need to read the book to go deep into all of these, because we're not going to be able to go deep into all six. But these are just so good, I want us to hit another couple.

Okay. So the decision to obey, on the surface that feels like a no-brainer, though it's always easier to talk about than to do. But I want to know, Katie, what it means to choose to rise. What does that mean?

Katie Reid: Well, there's a great verse in Judges 5, which is really a testimony song giving God the praise for delivering his people from their enemies in battle. And it talks about -- Deborah says, "I, Deborah, a mother of Israel, arose." You know, "March on, O my soul, in strength." And so I see this picture with Deborah, who is a prophetess and judge, and Barak, who was a military commander, that they both rose to their God-given position, but God used Deborah to exhort Barak and remind him of what God had commanded him, to go into battle. We see this in Judges 4.

And Deborah rose in this beautiful way. I believe she had this Godly confidence, right? She feared him, she knew his voice, but she didn't steamroll those around her, nor did she shrink back. And I think that's a beautiful picture for us of what it means to rise to that position and place of influence that God has given to us, but to do it in such a way that we're not just bulldozing those around us, but we're also not cowering and not stepping into that role.

I recently had a disagreement with one of my children. And this child has a very strong-willed personality, just like her father and I do. And it was that moment that sometimes God will whisper to me, "This is your Esther moment. Step into that authority as a mom," you know. And so I kind of -- it sounds silly, but I kind of stood up to my kid with truth, and hopefully love as well. And, of course, they didn't like it, but later on I saw them behaving differently. And I thought, you know what? So many times I have shrunk back from that role because I want to be liked, you know, whether that's at home, at work, you know, in ministry.

But I see this in Deborah, that she rose to the occasion. She faithfully carried out the sacred assignment God had given to her. And it inspired, I believe, Barak, gave him courage to do the same. Because sometimes we need to borrow courage from those next to us. Maybe the task before us just feels too scary or too overwhelming. And so I love this collaboration with Deborah and Barak, that they really doubled their strength, instead of divided it, as they agreed to go into battle together.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So I was going to ask you about that, because I read that in the book, that their strength was doubled.

Okay, so let's go -- because we've mentioned Deborah here -- and this is all so good. And by the way, let me say one more thing about Deborah. When you quoted that Scripture of how she rose, I love that you pulled that from that. And she also said, "March on, O my soul." I mean, she was doing some righteous self-talk right there too.

Katie Reid: Yes. And don't we need to do that to remind ourselves of what is true, you know?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, yes. I love that. Because, yeah, sometimes if you're going to rise, you got to be telling yourself the truth. And I love that God used Deborah, a woman, a mother of Israel.

Okay. But some are listening and going, "I don't know who Deborah is." So you've mentioned she was a prophetess, you mentioned she was a judge. Can you give us a little bit of her biography, and then who Barak was that you've mentioned, and how they collaborated.

Katie Reid: Yeah. So we read about different judges in the Book of Judges, and Deborah was one. She was a woman, which was very unusual, especially at this time. But says she was a prophetess and a judge. So she was -- it says she sat under the palm tree, which I love, because I think it's kind of figuratively speaking of sitting under God's palm. You know, she again had this place of authority, yet I believe she was submitted to his ultimate authority in her life.

And it said she would settle disputes. So God's people would come to her and she would help discern what they were to do based on what was true and what God had instructed. And I love this picture for those that are listening that are moms. Don't we often feel that way? We are sitting there and we are settling disputes among the children.

Yeah, and so then it says that she went and summoned Barak and reminded him. And he was a military leader at that time. And the thing was that they were oppressed by Jabin. And Sisera was Jabin's commander. And so God had commanded Barak and his 10,000 troops to go into battle against Sisera. And they were oppressing God's people, and this would have been a very intimidating situation. However, God not only says, you know, "Go into battle," he tells them what the result will be.

And I don't know about you, Jennifer, but not often does God tell me what the outcome is going to be of a certain situation. But yet there was still fear even though he knew the outcome. And so Deborah is reminding him what God commanded. And then he says basically, "I'll go if you go," and so Deborah agrees to go with him into battle.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay. So what I love about this too, Katie, is I'm thinking, you know, just -- so many of our listeners are female, are women, and sometimes women, especially in the Christian culture, can get all very confused about what their roles are, you know, what they should say, what they shouldn't say, to whom they should say it. You know, it all varies between denominations, et cetera.

But what I love is this biblical illustration of how God used a woman, not necessarily -- in another role of authority, not necessarily an authority over Barak, but with equal authority of Barak, and he submitted and listened to her. And even the, you know, "I'm not going to go if you're not going to go," I mean, it just -- I want you to kind of unpack that a little bit. How can we apply this scenario with being godly women who want to honor each other in the body of Christ properly?

Katie Reid: Yeah. I think it goes back to Deborah wasn't a one-woman show and Barak wasn't a one-man show, that they -- there was, like, this -- you know, we read in the New Testament about being co-heirs with Christ. And I think sometimes we can get a little mixed up, right? Yes, we want to stay true to the Word, and, yes, there's different interpretations, but I believe we each have spiritual gifts that God wants to use.

And I remember a couple from our church telling us one time they had gone on a trip. And this trip was really a faith journey. They just felt called to go down to where there had been some devastation with a tornado. They didn't really know exactly where they were going. But she said, "We yielded to one another's spiritual gifts." And she had a gift of discernment and he had a gift more like helps and generosity. And so they teamed together and were able to be stronger together instead of, you know, just saying, "Well, I'm the only one who can make decisions," or, "I'm going to do this." And I think we are wise when we listen to the wisdom of those around us.

And people have different lenses by which they see the world, and different experiences with the Lord. And I think it's evident that Deborah was respecting Barak's position as this military commander. She wasn't trying to go do that herself. But she was reminding him, and then he was able to rise up to that position that he had been entrusted to the Lord. And I like to kind of think about it like this: that she called him up versus called him out.

Jennifer Rothschild: Ooh, good word.

Katie Reid: And I think that is something we all need to think about. Are we calling people out or calling them up? Because I think there's a different nuance there. One's kind of like, "I gotcha," like, in a bad way, right?

Jennifer Rothschild: Right.

Katie Reid: The other's like, "I've got you," in a supportive way.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah.

Katie Reid: And so I think so many times in the church we can just kind of devour our own and be critical and judgy and all the things. But really we're on the same team, as my friend Cindy Bultema says, you know. When we can work together, we can accomplish so much more than we can in isolation.

Jennifer Rothschild: That's such a good word. It really all gets back to the heart and to rising according to our calling, how God has called us. That's really good, Katie. I appreciate that. And so we do need to have mutual submission to one another, honoring the authority of God in each of us. I just thank you for that.

So one of the things I wanted to also address is -- okay, you talk about iron chariots. And I know that was a big deal with Sisera's army. Okay. So when you talk about iron chariots, you talk about how they can trip us up, take us down. So I want you to explain to us what these iron chariots are and what you mean by that.

Katie Reid: Yeah. So in Judges 1, we see that Judah and Simeon, two of the tribes of Israel, are going in to possess the land God has promised them. And we also see this with Sisera. He also has iron chariots. But with Judah and Simeon, they're going in, they are battling, they're doing what the Lord asked them to do, and then they see those iron chariots and they stop obeying. They don't fully obey, they only partially obey.

And so I got to thinking about this. It's like what are those iron chariots in our life that we focus on? We get our eyes, you know, no longer fixed on the Lord instead of -- we're fixating on these iron chariots that are an enemy to our intimacy with the Lord. And they can be any obstacle that is keeping us from obeying the Lord. And remember, God had promised Barak the victory. He had also told Judah he was going to have the victory. And so God's promises are "Yes" and "Amen."

But this phrase that God has been bringing to mind to me is, Katie, are you going to believe what you see or are you going to believe what I said? Because sometimes what we see in front of us, our reality is -- appears contradictory to God's promises. But I believe the older I get, the unseen, the spiritual realm, is way more real than the visible. And so I think it's important to identify those iron chariots in our life in our current season right now.

For us, Jennifer, I told you right before we got on that our family is relocating from Michigan to Florida. And the area that God is calling us to is quite affluent, and we are not that fancy of people. And so I remember looking at how much rent costs down in this area, and I was like, "Lord, I know you have called us here, but this does not make sense on paper. I just don't know." And it was causing a lot of anxiety the more I looked at rentals and houses and all this.

So in God's kindness -- Jennifer, I'm sure this has happened to you with your books as well -- God will baptize you in your message and remind you of things you have written. And he said, "Oh, Katie, are finances your iron chariot? Are you going to stop short of obeying what I've clearly instructed because there's some iron chariots coming your way?" And so I had to humble myself and say, "Okay, Lord, you can do anything. Nothing is impossible with you. You can make a way where there seems to be no way." Just like he parted the Red Sea, just like he provided manna and quail, surely he can come up with a little paper, as my 17-year-old has reminded me.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, I love that story because we can all relate. We've all been in situations like that where we can relate. And what I heard you say is your choice to obey -- I mean, that's one of the six choices. You said that's one we can always make. Your choice to obey was still solid, and you had chosen to remember that God has always provided. I mean, so it's just a beautiful picture.

All right. So let me get us, though, to our last question. I know I've got some listeners right now like me who are anxious to open the book. I'm so glad you wrote it as a Bible study, by the way, Katie, I really am, because then we get to just go deeper. Okay, but this will be our last question. There's someone listening, and they're tracking with you, and they are smack dab in the middle, kind of like you were with the Florida thing, with a big decision to make. And the stakes feel super high and there's iron chariots that are pulling their attention. But, you know, bottom line is it just feels kind of fuzzy and uncertain. And so I want you just to kind of be their friend and coach them and tell them, what can they do when this podcast ends to have a sense of peace in making this decision?

Katie Reid: Well, I think a lot of times when we're faced with uncertainty, it can either drive us to God or away from him. And so, listener, if you find yourself in the middle of a dark valley, I just want to encourage you to call out to God. We call these SOS prayers. "God, what do I do?" "God, I need you." Because one of my favorite names of God is Emmanuel, God with us. Right? We see this embodied in Jesus. And so even when you might not know what to do next, you have a God who is present with you in it. And it doesn't necessarily answer all your questions at the moment. But I remember a song we used to sing when I was young, Jesus is the answer for the world today.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, yeah.

Katie Reid: Above him there's no other.

Jennifer and Katie: Jesus is the way.

Katie Reid: Yes. And so grab on to him. Open his Word. Look at Judges 1 through 5 and ask him to help you navigate this valley or these iron chariots that you are facing. Because obeying him -- there is blessing when you obey him. That is never the wrong choice. And so ask him, "God, what do I need to do to obey you?" And, Jennifer, sometimes what that is -- sometimes he's already told us and we just need to remember and go do that.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay, choir, tune it up. You need to sing some Andrae' Crouch right now. (Singing) Jesus is the answer. Jesus is the way. Remember that? Sing it. He is the way. When you don't know the way, there is always blessing when you obey. So as Katie said, ask God, "What do I need to do to obey you?"

KC Wright: Good stuff.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: I mean, really good stuff. You need her book. I need her book. All God's children need the book. And we are giving one away at Jennifer's Instagram -- talk about encouraging right there -- @jennrothschild on Instagram. Or you can go to the Show Notes now at 413podcast.com/373 to get connected with the giveaway.

And at the Show Notes you can read the full transcript just for you because she gave lots of verses you may want to review. We'll also link you to Katie's podcast at the Show Notes at 413podcast.com/373.

Jennifer Rothschild: So much good stuff.

All right, our people, let's choose to remember and to rise. Let's choose to make wise decisions. We can because -- you know the drill -- we can do all things through Christ who gives us strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer Rothschild: And you can.

KC Wright: And you can.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, you can.

KC Wright: And God says if you want wisdom, you just ask.

Jennifer Rothschild: Right?

KC Wright: Right?

Jennifer Rothschild: He gives it liberally, like it rains down from heaven and floods your soul.

KC Wright: We receive it now in Jesus' name.

Jennifer Rothschild: Bring it on.

4:13 Podcast: Can I Pray Through My Doubt? With Niki Hardy [Episode 372]

Niki Hardy: When we have these questions like, "Why did you answer her prayer and not mine?" or, you know, "Are you good? This doesn't feel good," intellectually we know we're kind of okay, but emotionally we react and we don't go to God because we do believe these lies that say things like, "Well, I can't question God," and, "Who am I to question him?" and, "Well, I can't tell him that, that's awful," and, "I'm the only one," and, "I need proof to be sure." And Jesus said don't doubt. And so there's a whole load of shame and guilt and hidden messaging that comes with it.

Jennifer Rothschild: When we find ourselves torn between doubt and faith, we can feel disappointed or disillusioned and even distant from God and it's really hard to know where to turn. But that, my friend, is when we turn to God. So if you've ever dealt with doubt, today author Niki Hardy is going to invite you to take Jesus at his word. She's going to give you a very simple four-step conversation guide for praying through your doubt and even hearing from God. Doubt does not have to be your faith's kryptonite. Oh, no. It can be your faith's superpower. So let's unpack this beautiful gift today with Niki Hardy. KC, let's go.

KC Wright: Welcome to the 4:13 Podcast, where practical encouragement and biblical wisdom set you up to live the "I Can" life, because you can do all things through Christ who strengthens you.

Now welcome your host, Jennifer Rothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Hey there. That was KC Wright, my Seeing Eye Guy. It's two friends and one topic -- good topic today, by the way -- and zero stress here in the podcast closet (singing) under the stairs.

KC Wright: (Singing) Under the stairs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes, (singing) under the stairs. That's where we are, we're under the stairs. (Singing) Everything's better. We don't need a sweater.

KC Wright: (Singing) Under the stairs.

Jennifer Rothschild: Under the stairs.

KC Wright: Oh, I'm going to have to just write a jingle.

Jennifer Rothschild: You are going to have to write a jingle.

KC Wright: I'm going to have to write it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Tell him, people. Tell him in your reviews that you want KC to write and sing the jingle.

Anyway, if you're new to us, I'm Jennifer, and my goal is to help you be and do more than you feel capable of as you're living the "I Can" life of Philippians 4:13 along with us. We really are glad you're here. I already told you a couple of weeks ago -- I've been telling you that I'm out on the road because it's the Grand Finale tour of my Fresh Grounded Faith conference. Fresh Grounded Faith is retiring; Jennifer is not.

KC Wright: Thank you, Lord.

Jennifer Rothschild: You can still find me on the road all through the fall and next year; I'm just not going to be doing Fresh Grounded Faith anymore. So if you want to come the end of October, I'm going to be in Lubbock, Texas. And then the very last Fresh Grounded Faith is November 7th and 8th in Springfield, Missouri. Kirk Cameron will be with me, and comedian Anita Renfro.

KC Wright: Wow.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's going to be so good. You know, one of the things I do, KC, for most of my guests, I give them some of my favorite things, which includes my favorite chocolate from Springfield, which is Askinosie Chocolate, and then Buff City soap.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I always give them a little bar of soap. One time I gave Tim Hawkins one, Narcissist. Well, I didn't mean anything by it. He goes, "What are you saying? You think I'm a narcissist?" So anyway, now it's our little joke. But I love that Buff City soap.

And you were telling me, right as we began to record, that your phone is blowing up.

KC Wright: Well, yeah. Because, you know, we have a rule in the podcast booth, silence the watch --

Jennifer Rothschild: Right, right.

KC Wright: -- silence the phone. And I'm getting notifications from Buff City Soap -- which they do not sponsor our podcast.

Jennifer Rothschild: No. They should.

KC Wright: They should. But once again, JR has made an impact on my life. I now go to Buff City Soap. And they are telling me that there's a sale going on with soap bombs and all these things.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, my gosh.

KC Wright: Now, you just have to be careful on what soap you buy from Buff City. Okay?

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah?

KC Wright: Because right now I'm scrubbing down with this one bar and it's like confetti.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's fun.

KC Wright: It's bright and colorful.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Yeah.

KC Wright: But a few weeks ago, I used a bar of soap that was -- it was brown. And that don't look too good in your shower.

Jennifer Rothschild: So what was the fragrance or the mix?

KC Wright: It was a coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh. Did it smell good?

KC Wright: It was a coffee soap bar, and it did smell good. But after you use it a couple times, you just don't want that sitting in your shower. I have a cleaning lady that comes once a month, and I had to get rid of that. She would have had some thoughts.

Jennifer Rothschild: She would have wondered, what is that?

KC Wright: Soap.

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, that's humbling.

KC Wright: You just have to be careful with the soap you purchase, the color of it.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, mushy brown soap in the shower could be confusing to the eye. I got you. I got you. Well, on that note, everyone.

KC Wright: Oh, goodness. Okay.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's hard to recover from that. But I will tell you this. Okay. My favorite fragrance, though, from Buff City is called Narcissist. And it's really based on the flower, the Narcissist. But, yeah, it looks like you're just calling everyone a Narcissist that you give the soap to. But at least it doesn't look like a mm-hmm.

KC Wright: That is one thing about coming to the Rothschilds' residence, you are hit every moment you walk in this -- in any room, fragrance --

Jennifer Rothschild: I do love it.

KC Wright: -- beautiful smells. I mean, candles and...

Jennifer Rothschild: I love it.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It's like a fragrance library.

KC Wright: True story.

Jennifer Rothschild: It is.

KC Wright: And we won't even go with the smells from the coffee.

Jennifer Rothschild: No.

KC Wright: Wonderful. Wonderful scents.

Jennifer Rothschild: Which is what it smells like in here right now, by the way.

KC Wright: Yes, yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: It smells lovely. Okay. Well, I hope the smells around you today are lovely. And if they're not, make them lovely. You can do that. Okay, this is the podcast. You can. You can. So light a candle.

Actually, pour yourself a cup of proper British tea. Because Niki Hardy is with us, and she is a proud Brit. I love her accent.

KC Wright: Yes.

Jennifer Rothschild: I not only love how she talks, but I love what she's got to say. So let's introduce Niki.

KC Wright: She's, yes, a proud Brit now living in the United States and the author of the Audi Award nominated "Breathe Again" and "One-Minute Prayers for Women with Cancer." Niki has been featured on the Hallmark Channel, Life Today, and Premiere Radio. She lives in North Carolina with her husband and a ridiculous Doodle named Charlie, who is the main reason their three grown children come home. They just come home for Charlie. And I understand. I have a Doodle too --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, we get that.

KC Wright: -- named Brennan.

Jennifer Rothschild: We get that.

KC Wright: I get it. You will love this conversation between Jennifer and Niki, so pour your tea and let's listen in.

Jennifer Rothschild: All right, Niki, I already bragged about you with me and KC, you know, that I love having you on the podcast. Pretty much -- I mean, you have good content -- okay? -- you do. But pretty much you could just give me your grocery list and I would be like, "Oh, yes, I receive you, Jesus." Because you have just such a beautiful accent. And even the tone of your voice, I told you before we went on air, it's like dark chocolate. So I just love that.

So listeners, get ready. Just stay awake -- okay? -- because she can just soothe you as you listen to this voice.

So we're going to start, though, with something that going to keep us wide awake. Okay? We're going to talk about, Niki, praying through our doubts, which is a thing.

But before we do that and get into that specificity, I want you to kind of brainstorm a little with us about how you think most of us who are believers feel about doubts. Like, are we okay with that? Do we feel comfortable with it? Or is there something that you've observed that maybe we believe about doubting that is incorrect or destructive?

Niki Hardy: That's such a great question to start with, because I think on an intellectual basis many of us are okay with the idea of doubting. On a theological basis we say, yes, we're never going to know everything, God is mysterious. He is ultimately knowable but unknowable; it's okay that I don't have all the answers. But then something happens internally when we have questions.

When life is so painful, it raises up these difficult issues that we struggle with, whether it's about the church as a whole, whether it's about God and his providence and his provision and his goodness, or whether it's about his Word, whatever it is.

When we have these questions like, "Why did you answer her prayer and not mine?" or, you know, "Are you good? This doesn't feel good," intellectually we know we're kind of okay, but emotionally we react and we don't go to God because we do believe these lies that say things like, "Well, I can't question God," and, "Who am I to question him?" and, "Well, I can't tell him that. That's awful," and, "I'm the only one and I need proof to be sure." And Jesus said don't doubt.

And so there's a whole load of shame and guilt and hidden messaging that comes with it that we have inherited perhaps from our church upbringing, perhaps from even reading the Word, whatever it is. But I think there's this kind of intellectual versus emotional response that we have to our questions.

Jennifer Rothschild: I think you're so right. I think that's true in a lot of areas in the Christian faith, like depression, anxiety, mental health issues. I think we're intellectually okay with it, but then emotionally we can get all sorts of shame and guilt, et cetera. I think the same applies to doubt. And I think it's really important -- thank you for pointing that out to differentiate, because there is no shame in it. And that's something we're going to unpack in a minute.

But I think it's important to acknowledge right up front that you can feel the emotions of doubt and all of the things that go with it; whereas at the same time, you're still kind of solidly trusting, which is, I think, what your life demonstrates. Because I remember the last time you were on The 4:13, you talked about your cancer and your battle with cancer. And in that same conversation, you also told us about losing your mom and your sister to cancer. Okay.

And that's just, like, the stuff in the life of Niki Hardy that we actually know about, right? You've had plenty of opportunities to wrestle with this. So I am curious, has doubt been one of your responses to the hard stuff in your life?

Niki Hardy: Well, it's interesting you bring up our last conversation, because I think what came out of that season was -- I did question God. I wanted to know why. But really what God was showing me in that season was how to connect with him and lay hold of the abundant life, the full life that he has for us even in the midst of the storms.

Because I mistakenly assumed in my head because I'd believed an abundant life is a Facebook fabulous life, and it's Instagram worthy and -- rather than it being one of intimacy and connection and joy and delight even in the hardest time. So I think that's what he was teaching me during this season.

But since then, Jennifer, I've come to this place where -- been through a whole 'nother raft of things. And what I felt like was -- I started to feel untethered in my faith. And I remember we were pastoring a church and we stepped down from leadership. No drama, just felt called out by the Lord. And after that season and COVID and other things layered on top of it, I remember I was out for a walk early one morning with my lovely but rather ridiculous Golden Doodle, Charlie, and I knew exactly where I was.

I was on the trail that we always walk for him to do his morning business, you know, and yet I felt so lost. Not geographically, but more spiritually than emotionally even. And I remember I came back inside and my husband, Al, was sitting on the sofa, and he had "Amazing Grace" playing over the speaker. And I kind of rolled my eyes with the emotional maturity of a tween because I was like, ugh, he's so spiritual, you know, even when things are rubbish and so annoying.

And as I went upstairs, the famous words that I had held on to and made my own, as so many of us have from that wonderful hymn, they followed me up the stairs. "I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see." And I thought no, the opposite is now truer for me. I once was found, but now I'm lost.

And it was as if my faith was changing and shifting, even dying from a thousand paper cuts. I wasn't sure what was happening, I just knew that I felt incredibly lost. I still knew God, I still loved God, but I didn't understand him. I wasn't even sure if I liked him and his Word and his people. Things that once either brought me alive, now laid me low. Or once things that I read and I could say, well, that was just God doing that in the Bible and -- you know, so it must be okay. And then I was at a place where I was like, well, hold on. If that was a headline in today's newspaper, "King Orders Murder of All Two-Year-Old Boys," we wouldn't think, oh, well, it was God, so it must be okay.

And so things started to kind of unravel, and that was very unnerving, British understatement there.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. Okay. There's so many things you said there. I went through a very similar season and, honestly -- I wouldn't have said it as lovely as you -- but the same sentiments. Very unraveling. It was a spiral and untethering. I called it an inner deterioration. Like, this framework that had held me up started to crumble piece by piece.

And so I'm curious -- you use the analogy of a thousand paper cuts. Unpack that for me. What does that mean to you?

Niki Hardy: Well, I think for many people, we can get to the same place feeling disconnected from God, disappointed, disillusioned, confused, skeptical, whatever kind of words sit best with your situation. Many people get to that place with one big sucker punch. You know, it's the loss of a child, it is a diagnosis. It's something that just wipes them out completely.

But for me, it was thing after thing, knock after knock after -- you know, painful little jabs and -- just a lot.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah, yeah.

Niki Hardy: That's the only way I can describe it. And I thought, is my faith fading? Is it changing? But it did feel like it was slowly dying. And I found that quite frightening really, because I love my faith.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, yes. I can relate. And I think that's important to describe, because sometimes it is the one event. But sometimes it's just so many events that the fabric of our faith just gets weak. We can't pile more stuff on it.

And so one of the things I hear as you're describing, that I would like you to explore for a moment, is what manifested perhaps as doubt, was that really the root? Or was it fatigue? Or was it just many things and doubt became one of the manifestations?

Niki Hardy: I think I want to say yes and all the above.

Jennifer Rothschild: Okay.

Niki Hardy: So doubt was in there. I was doubting God's goodness and I was doubting his Word and his people. And when I say was, I mean, this isn't like it's a season that's a one and done, I'm like, "Oh, now I'm all good."

Jennifer Rothschild: Last Tuesday. Right.

Niki Hardy: Yeah. It's more that now I'm able to live with this mystery and these questions in tension with my walk with God in a way that I couldn't before. I think a life of walking and talking in faith and questioning God is actually a really healthy faith. So I would hate people to come away from listening to this thinking, well, Niki went through a season of doubt and questioning and now her faith is rock solid and it's all tied up with a pretty bow. No, no, no, no, no.

Jennifer Rothschild: Gotcha. Yeah, yeah.

Niki Hardy: You know, I've just figured out a way to walk and talk with God about it. But I think it was a mixture of doubt and questioning, skepticism, confusion, disillusionment, disappointment. So many different things, Jennifer.

Jennifer Rothschild: Well, it makes total sense because we are so fully integrated. I mean, we are fearfully and wonderfully made, and it's frightening sometimes.

So something you just said which reminds me of something I read, Niki, that caught my attention. You said in your book that over the last few years you've grown more unsure of your faith, but -- than you've ever been. Okay, more unsure of your faith than you've ever been, but more sure of God than you could hope for. Okay, so unpack that.

Niki Hardy: Yes. Everyone was, Wait. What?

Jennifer Rothschild: What?

Niki Hardy: Hold on a minute.

Jennifer Rothschild: Love it.

Niki Hardy: That doesn't make sense. Unpack that for me.

I think what I mean by that is my relationship with God has grown stronger and stronger, but I don't profess to know his ways better or understand his thinking better, or even necessarily his Word better or his church better or anything. So for me, when I say I'm more unsure of my faith, I think that's everything around that surrounds the core of our relationship with God. So those things are all very -- quite shaky in a healthy way, much more healthy way. I think they've moved from being shaken in an unhealthy way to just being held in tension in the many paradoxes of our faith and theology and walk with God.

But my relationship with God has grown closer and closer. And that's because, as I say in "God, Can We Chat?" it's about spending time with him and being in conversation. And I can say to you, Jennifer, "Oh, you should trust my friend Julie. She is fantastic. She's honest and she's kind and she's forgiving and she's full of grace and she's fun, and your life will become better if you read about her and you get to know her." And you say, "Well, I've read about her and I've talked to her." And I say, "Well, have you had her speak into your life? Have you walked through hard things with her?"

And you're, "Oh, no, no. I just read about her or read what other people think about her." And so I'm like, "Well, get to know her personally. Go through hard stuff with her and you will see that your relationship with her is growing stronger and stronger and more intimate." All the other stuff about why, you know, she lives where she lives, why she makes the choices she makes, you might not fully understand, but your relationship with her is stronger. And that's kind of the analogy I like to use.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it makes so much sense. It really makes so much sense. And I appreciate it too, Niki, because I think sometimes, oh, my faith is solid. It feels so self-generated. But when you can say, I'm more certain of God than I've ever been or than I ever hope to be, that's a very God-centered -- whereas he's your anchor, not your experience, circumstances, set of beliefs as your anchor. And there is a difference there, and one -- boy, if it gets untethered even slightly, it is so unmooring. Yeah, when God is your anchor, that doesn't change. I love the way you think, my sister.

Okay, I want to talk about something else in your book because you alluded to it just now. You emphasize the difference between seeking certainty and seeking relationship with God. Okay. Lots of people equate certainty with the goodness of God or the revelation of God, and lots of people do not feel comfortable in this life without certainty, even if they have a, quote/unquote, relationship with God. So talk to me about the difference between seeking certainty versus seeking relationship.

Niki Hardy: Well, I can relate to that. I feel a lot more calm and taken care of when I know that I know that I know and I'm certain about certain things. So I get it. But that feels to me about me reaching out for things that are head knowledge, things that I can control in a way. If I go in search of certainty in my own strength and I read more and I listen to what other people think, and even study the Bible and that kind of thing, it feels like I'm reaching for something that is attainable, and I'll either get there or I won't.

But when I'm reaching for God, it's an ever-evolving relationship that grows deeper. That he is more interested in my transformation than me hitting a certain goal and knowing certain things about him. And so it can be deeply frustrating because then you're like, I just want to know, Lord, you know, is it this or is it this? But he's like, Well, come on, you know, come with me. Let's just go deeper in our relationship.

And it makes me think of the wonderful Eugene Peterson paraphrase of the wonderful Matthew 11:28 verse, you know, "Come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden." And in the paraphrase of The Message, it's put like this: Are you exhausted? Are you burnt out on religion? You know, come to me. Walk with me, talk with me, learn the unforced rhythms of grace and learn to live lightly and freely.

And when I am desperately driving and trying to find certainty, it's exhausting and I get burnt out on it. And what Jesus is saying is, Come on. Come to me and walk with me, talk with me. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace of our relationship. Live lightly and freely with me. And he never promised us answers. He never promised us that we would know and understand him. I mean, if he took Job on a celestial journey and Job didn't come away any clearer, I'm not sure I will.

Jennifer Rothschild: Amen. You are so right. Oh, gosh, Niki, this is so good. And I hope this becomes a permission slip for those of you who are listening who have been just seeking certainty and thinking that's where you find your security. Niki's just making it very clear, the security comes from the relationship. So let's just move into those unforced rhythms of grace.

All right, Niki, here's what we're going to do. We're going to get to our last question. But that doesn't mean it is a short. I probably saved the longest answer for you for our last question. Because your book is entitled, as you've mentioned, "God, Can We Chat?" And so in your book you share a conversation guide, and it's using the acronym CHAT, C-H-A-T. So I would love as an ending for this podcast -- I want us to end super practical with you unpacking all four of those elements so that we can begin to pray through our doubts and get closer to relationship with the Lord. So give us the CHAT acronym.

Niki Hardy: Yeah. Well, I made it super short and memorable with the CHAT acronym, because being a certain age, menopausal age, my gray matter is shrinking, so I needed it --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes.

Niki Hardy: -- memorable and short.

But many people that I chat to, they're like, okay, I have reimagined my questions and my doubts as my faith's superpower, if you like, not its kryptonite. I can see that they hold power, but not to destroy my faith, to actually strengthen it. Okay, and I've reframed the doubts, the way I think about doubt and all that guilt and shame. And I know I can come to God, but what does that actually look like? How do I do that? How do I hear God's voice in the midst of it?

And so the CHAT conversation guide, or guided prayer format if you want to call it that, is a way for us to not just chat with God and talk to him, but hear his heart and his voice for us in the midst of our biggest questions. Not really -- not so we can find answers. And I say many times in the book, if you want this to be a Q&A with God, this isn't the book for you. If you are after answers, you know, put the book down. But this is a way of us growing closer to God.

And the C is to consider the facts. So we consider the facts. Because for many of us, there's an event or a series of events that is causing us to ask the question we're asking. And the whole last third of the book is dedicated to 15 to 20 questions that many of my readers wrote in and told me about, you know, like, Well, why are -- why am I hearing messages in church that purport to love and grace and then your church isn't living it out? Why did you answer her prayer and not mine? Is the Bible really your Word, God? There's so much I don't understand. You know, all these different questions.

And for many of us, we come to ask one of these questions because something has happened. And so this is consider the facts in a very journalistic, just-the-facts-ma'am kind of way. So if it was why did you answer her prayer and not mine, it might be that my friend and I have both been trying to have children and going through infantility issues, and we've both been praying, and she's now six months pregnant and I'm still struggling. Those are the facts, as hard as they are. And the CHAT guided prayer format is based on spiritual direction practices, but also cognitive behavioral therapy. So we look at the facts and then we honor the story we're telling ourselves.

H is for honor the story we're telling ourselves. Because often buried within those facts is a story that we keep repeating about ourselves or about God. Well, I just didn't pray hard enough. God doesn't love me as much as he loves her. It's probably because I slept around in college. Whatever the underlying nugget is. Because I really think that's what God wants to talk to us about, not whether or how he answers prayers and whose prayers he answers. He wants to get to these stories that we tell ourselves, because our brains make up these stories to find calm and peace.

And the crazy thing is they don't need to be true. These stories are -- most of the time they are lies. So that's where we say, oh, okay, now I've got to the bottom of what that story is. And I lead people through ways to kind of dig for what that nugget is.

And then the A of CHAT -- so we've considered the facts, honored the story -- is to ask God what he has to say. And this is where we say, Lord, would you pull up your celestial sofa. Can we have a cup of tea? And will you tell me what you want me to know or believe or understand when it comes to that story. Help me hear it with your ears. Help me hear what you have to say.

And then the T -- once we've come through that far and when we ask God what he has to say, we realize that these stories we're telling ourselves, 99.9% of them aren't correct. And then we need to team up with God ongoing. That's the last one, T. Because, you know, real life happens and we have to come out of our conversation with God in a way and go back to seeing our friend with her big, lovely, beautiful, swollen belly. And how are we going to navigate that? Will we team up with God ongoing? What would that look like? And so I guide people through these conversations with God, giving them examples and questions and time and space to journal and pray.

KC Wright: Our people, I hope you heard her loud and unclear. Doubt is not your kryptonite. It can be your superpower. You can take it all to God. And as Niki said, you can CHAT.

Jennifer Rothschild: I love that. CHAT, yes, C-H-A-T.

Okay, so here's a reminder. C, consider. Consider the facts like a journalist would. You just be honest and state the facts.

H, honor. Honor the story that you're telling yourself. Because often buried within is a repeated story about yourself or about God, you know, like he doesn't love me or it's because I sinned. And our brains can make up stories to help us bring peace and calm, yet those stories may not be true. So you got to just honor that story and bring it to God. Okay.

And then A, ask. Ask God what he has to say. As Niki would say, "God, let's have a cup of tea." Like, what do I need to know or understand about my story? So help me hear my story with your ears.

And then lastly as you're chatting, T is for team up. You're going to team up with God as you go forward, as you move ahead.

KC Wright: Niki's framework is so spot on, and it's so simple. You need her book. I need her book. You can get one at the Show Notes right now at 413podcast.com/372, or you can also enter to win one at Jennifer's Insta @jennrothschild.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah. And we're also going to link you to the last episode that Niki was on with us because it was so good. And especially if you know somebody who's dealing with a disease like cancer, I mean -- oh, wow, it was super powerful. All right. The Show Notes are at 413podcast.com/372.

Oh, our friends, it's been a lovely time with you. And I just want you to know, KC and I believe in your God, and we believe in you, so we know that you can do this. You can CHAT with God. You can pray through your doubts, because why? You can do all things through Christ who gives you strength. I can.

KC Wright: I can.

Jennifer and KC: And you can.

KC Wright: You know, the last time I was in England, my friends got married. And I was trying to do a little sit-down comedy at the wedding reception --

Jennifer Rothschild: Oh, boy.

KC Wright: -- afterwards --

Jennifer Rothschild: Yeah?

KC Wright: -- and I was telling some jokes. And one British lady, I remember her well. I can see her right now in my mind. Her name was Rosemary. And she goes, "Oh, KC, settle down. You're causing a kerfuffle." And I said, "Hold on. Hold on just for a moment. What did you just say? Did you just say the word kerfuffle?" which means you're causing a ruckus.

Jennifer Rothschild: Yes. Which is --

KC Wright: But kerfuffle, from that moment till now, has been one of my favorite words in all the world.

Jennifer Rothschild: And it's such a KC word. Such a -- it's so true.

KC Wright: "Oh, KC, settle down. You're causing a kerfuffle."